| 00:00.18 | Solsis | http://www.twitch.tv/solsis00 |
| 00:00.26 | Solsis | Take a look at my UI real quick Noshei |
| 00:02.31 | Imhothar | tomorrow, ey? then I need to add the watchdog silencing to frame creation |
| 00:02.55 | Imhothar | tho complete creating a bag window can take up to 2s |
| 00:03.04 | Imhothar | impending doom... |
| 00:05.15 | Imhothar | yay Command.System.Watchdog.Quiet() seems to work |
| 00:06.06 | Solsis | woot |
| 00:06.24 | Solsis | Zorba and Baanano were talking about it for his AH addon |
| 00:08.23 | Imhothar | ah crap |
| 00:08.49 | Imhothar | Command.System.Watchdog.Quiet() just doesn't suffice the more items the window has |
| 00:10.15 | Imhothar | it's not a problem once the window was created |
| 00:16.31 | Imhothar | who's Thomas Nemasik? ;) |
| 00:18.05 | Solsis | lol |
| 00:18.24 | Solsis | Now that I fixed the res you can actually read stuff on my screen.. lol |
| 00:18.42 | Imhothar | isn't technology awesome? |
| 00:19.10 | Solsis | yea.. It was all blury and crap when I was using it earlier |
| 00:19.16 | Solsis | I just set it up today.. |
| 00:19.22 | Solsis | though I have no real use for it. |
| 00:21.03 | Solsis | Guess I'm done with it.. not sure if Noshei was going to look at my UI or not |
| 00:21.09 | Imhothar | I wonder whether the Watchdog suppression stacks |
| 00:21.23 | Solsis | hmmm... not sure |
| 00:21.49 | Solsis | I know Zorba talked about it a little bit.. cause Baanano was talking about trying to run it indef |
| 00:22.22 | Noshei | sry, I was afk getting food |
| 00:22.27 | Imhothar | well seems like it is |
| 00:23.26 | Imhothar | it's interesting tho, regarding how long loading the soul tree takes... |
| 00:25.40 | Solsis | http://www.justin.tv/solsis00 |
| 00:29.23 | Imhothar | I don't see any action happening |
| 00:31.59 | Solsis | lol.. well I'm not doing anything... I just was going to show Noshei my UI since we had a discussion on how cluttered his was |
| 00:32.07 | Solsis | or seemed to me imo |
| 00:32.20 | Noshei | yeah I saw it, raiding now though |
| 00:32.44 | Solsis | no worries |
| 00:32.58 | Solsis | Good luck.. hopefully you guys at least make some progress |
| 00:33.10 | Imhothar | irc is distracting you too much |
| 00:33.19 | Imhothar | you died! |
| 00:33.23 | Noshei | no, eating it |
| 00:35.48 | Solsis | lol |
| 00:53.52 | Imhothar | Baanano are you testing stuff on the pts? |
| 02:06.30 | *** join/#riftuidev Sunspots (~Sunspots@c213-89-208-104.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 02:07.02 | ZorbaGama | re: performance, the reason the performance throttling is going in is because we had a few higher-ups at trion grumble about client performance. and after some research, we realized that it was addons causing the problems |
| 02:07.25 | ZorbaGama | so if the top people at Trion can't figure that out, we obviously need to spend a bit of effort on reporting speed issues :) |
| 02:11.02 | Imhothar | constent speed issues is one thing, one single hiccup another |
| 02:14.24 | ZorbaGama | both, to be honest, and we'll probably be introducing some kind of average-performance check in the future as well |
| 02:14.35 | ZorbaGama | although that one's much trickier to get right |
| 02:15.44 | Imhothar | The problem I have with the Watchdog now is the first-time creation of an inventory window. Depending on how many items you have there can be alot of calls to CreateFrame the first time you open the bank window for example. |
| 02:19.59 | Imhothar | To give you some numbers: Opening the bank window the first time with 100 items in there calls UI.CreateFrame() 900 times and SetTexture() 200 times |
| 02:20.03 | Imhothar | this is Sparta! |
| 02:20.05 | ZorbaGama | it might be worth doing that during the logon sequence |
| 02:20.12 | Imhothar | I had that at first |
| 02:20.25 | Imhothar | but thought it would slow down UI load too much |
| 02:20.43 | ZorbaGama | that said, there may also be optimizations I can apply now that I have a good example of an addon that makes a whole pile of frames |
| 02:23.14 | Imhothar | I also noticed that creating my options frame with the 10 or what custom textures in there is enough to trigger the WatchDog. The Quiet() command helped here but who knows how many addon devs are gonna stumble across getting a warning when all they do is create a texture-rich frame :( |
| 02:24.05 | ZorbaGama | yeah, the textures may be a problem. I've been thinking about adding an asynchronous texture load feature, which would have the upside that it would load much faster in terms of immediate CPU cycles, and the downside that you wouldn't get texture size info until it was done loading |
| 02:24.55 | ZorbaGama | plus, displaying unloaded textures would (obviously) not display the intended texture |
| 02:25.13 | Imhothar | I think as long as you are able to SetPoint() it before it's loaded that it's not going to be a big issue |
| 02:26.00 | Imhothar | Something like 1. Create the Texture, 2. Set its points, and/or width/height, 3. SetTexture() to load the content in the background |
| 02:26.15 | ZorbaGama | yeah, that would work fine, just that things setpointed to it might end up moved once it finishes loading |
| 02:26.35 | ZorbaGama | (if the dimensions weren't fully specified) |
| 02:26.39 | Imhothar | aye |
| 02:27.14 | Imhothar | I assume people can read the documentation and given a SetTextureAsync() call the name is pretty obvious (at least to me) |
| 02:28.38 | Imhothar | How big is the performance hit when assigning ingame item icons? Was just thinking whether the delay when opening the inventory window the first time might come from the Addon system loading the icons for the items? |
| 02:29.17 | Imhothar | Don't know whether the addon system and the native UI share their texture cache |
| 02:29.57 | ZorbaGama | I believe they do, although the native UI uses it only for certain things (admittedly, those things include all icons) |
| 02:30.22 | ZorbaGama | loading icons is actually kind of depressingly slow - remember this is the same path we have to go through - so, yeah, a good fraction of it could be that |
| 02:30.22 | Imhothar | I might do some testing whether the icon loading has a noticeable impact |
| 02:30.33 | ZorbaGama | yeah, I think that's a good idea |
| 02:30.48 | ZorbaGama | if needed you can toss that into a coroutine and spread it over multiple frames, at least until we get an async load feature implemented |
| 02:31.15 | Imhothar | will see |
| 02:33.26 | Imhothar | hm interesting |
| 02:33.42 | Imhothar | not related: I got the Lua error popup disabled on the PTS |
| 02:34.10 | Imhothar | when logging in, I get a popup about the error in Inspector, after a /reloadui that same error appears in the chatbox |
| 02:35.36 | Imhothar | looks like the settings option doesn't apply during login |
| 02:36.11 | ZorbaGama | huh, I bet that's true |
| 02:36.23 | ZorbaGama | thanks, I'll add that to the todo |
| 02:39.54 | Imhothar | Does the watchdog only monitor execution of a single event or the whole frame update? |
| 02:40.41 | ZorbaGama | it currently considers all handlers of a single event. different events get different polls, but multiple handlers of an event share a pool. |
| 02:40.59 | Imhothar | hmm that's interesting |
| 02:41.51 | ZorbaGama | that's more an implementation detail than an intentional design, at some point it'll probably separate out handlers entirely. |
| 02:42.38 | Imhothar | I'm confused now |
| 02:42.50 | ZorbaGama | imagine you have three events, A B and C |
| 02:42.56 | Imhothar | no, I understand |
| 02:42.59 | ZorbaGama | oh okay |
| 02:43.01 | ZorbaGama | never mind then :D |
| 02:43.09 | Imhothar | I'm confused about what I see here testing stuff |
| 02:43.16 | ZorbaGama | aha. what's going on? |
| 02:43.42 | Imhothar | Here's an implementation detail of ImhoBags: The creation of the container window does trigger the population with the item buttons |
| 02:44.06 | Imhothar | that is a reaction inside Event.System.Update.Begin due to the container window's display being out-of-date |
| 02:45.24 | Imhothar | oh type |
| 02:45.26 | Imhothar | typo |
| 02:45.39 | Imhothar | creating the container window does NOT populate the container window |
| 02:46.47 | Imhothar | ok again: Event.LeftUp causes creating the bank window, and sets an internal flag tha the window has gone out-of-date with the item database. Then alter inside Event.System.Update.Begin the window creates all the item buttons it needs to display the items |
| 02:47.33 | Imhothar | And here I get the impression that calling Quiet() in the window creation also suppresses performance warnings in the second event |
| 02:47.48 | Imhothar | But this might be just imaignation, I'm not sure |
| 02:55.09 | Imhothar | Ok I think I was wrong with that assumption |
| 02:58.38 | Imhothar | My testing results: Loading the textures definitely has quite an impact, even for ingame icons. Now the thing is, if you go to the banker first and get all the icons loaded, then the subsequent creation of the bank item buttons is way faster, so they get cached I guess |
| 02:59.41 | Imhothar | Looks like 82 items is just on the limit, sometimes the Watchdog barks, sometimes not. |
| 03:00.00 | Imhothar | for the same scenario |
| 03:17.29 | Imhothar | How accurate is Inspect.Timer.Real()? Is that a high-performance counter? |
| 03:21.30 | *** join/#riftuidev Baanano|afk_ (~chatzilla@97.pool85-53-142.dynamic.orange.es) |
| 03:36.44 | Noshei | Imothar. I believe it is actually Inspect.Time.Real. If I remember correctly it basically tracks session time to the second. |
| 03:39.07 | Noshei | oh nm, it tracks way more accurate than per second |
| 03:41.07 | Noshei | looks to be to the millionth of a second |
| 03:41.19 | Noshei | or 0.000000 |
| 03:50.53 | Imhothar | It's definitely more accurate than Frame(), I was just curious what resolution it has |
| 04:05.06 | Imhothar | oh |
| 04:05.14 | Imhothar | Addon errors aren't logged to Log.txt anymore? |
| 04:11.47 | Noshei | I'm not sure |
| 04:12.06 | Noshei | I think they get logged somewhere different with watchdog |
| 04:12.26 | Noshei | but if they show up in the console then they should go in the log, if you have it enabled |
| 04:12.38 | Imhothar | should |
| 04:12.45 | Imhothar | would |
| 04:12.46 | Imhothar | could |
| 04:12.50 | Noshei | just do /log to check |
| 04:12.59 | Imhothar | What do you think I did |
| 04:13.35 | Noshei | never sure |
| 04:14.22 | Noshei | I tend to assume the worst of people |
| 04:14.41 | Imhothar | Sounds like a plan |
| 04:15.19 | Noshei | usually tends to be pretty accurate, but not always |
| 04:18.18 | Noshei | yeah thats kinda annoying it doesnt go to the log |
| 04:18.36 | Noshei | doesnt even put the Error in Addon. (details) in the log |
| 04:28.08 | Noshei | finally, I'm done with the main UI |
| 04:28.29 | Noshei | oh dman it, nm forgot about the damn buttons |
| 04:29.49 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar_ (Miranda@ppp-188-174-67-238.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 04:29.56 | Imhothar_ | 88534223 |
| 04:30.04 | Imhothar_ | argh |
| 04:37.15 | Imhothar | asynchronous texure loading ftw |
| 04:38.12 | Imhothar | it looks kinda cool, too |
| 04:48.36 | Noshei | what, with a coroutine? |
| 04:48.50 | Imhothar | better |
| 04:48.59 | Imhothar | stay tuned for a press release |
| 04:49.00 | Noshei | how? |
| 04:49.19 | Noshei | I saw what you and zorba were talking about earlier |
| 04:50.16 | Imhothar | this will blow your mind |
| 04:50.22 | Imhothar | well probably not but it still looks cool |
| 04:50.26 | Noshei | well lets hear it |
| 04:52.10 | Noshei | damn it, I need to fit 4 buttons in a space that 4 buttons dont want to fit |
| 04:52.22 | Noshei | I think I might have to create custom buttons |
| 05:34.03 | Solsis | Cairenn you around by chance? |
| 05:34.10 | Cairenn | nope! |
| 05:34.14 | Solsis | lol |
| 05:34.26 | Solsis | I would hide from me too if I could. :P |
| 05:34.32 | Cairenn | lol |
| 05:34.45 | Solsis | Is there a way to get to the Team manager other than when updating an addon? |
| 05:35.21 | Cairenn | use the edit the same as you would if you were updating, it won't trigger update message unless you actually replace the file |
| 05:35.22 | Solsis | Don't think I'll actually access it enough for it to matter really. Just more curious than anything. |
| 05:35.44 | Cairenn | you can work with team members, change screenshots, edit description, etc without triggering it |
| 05:36.20 | Solsis | But that is the only way. ok. That's what I thought. Just figured I'd check. |
| 05:36.27 | Cairenn | *nod* |
| 05:45.35 | Solsis | Thanks |
| 05:48.58 | Cairenn | :) You're welcome |
| 06:32.20 | Imhothar | Noshei, the press release as promised: http://forums.riftgame.com/addon-api-development/322470-libasynctextures.html ;) |
| 06:37.32 | Baanano|afk | that's nice imhotar i'll start using it this afternoon :) |
| 06:39.26 | Imhothar | I did only very basic tests, so if you find issues please report everything |
| 06:40.10 | Imhothar | but I'm quite positive it should be working fine |
| 06:40.54 | Noshei | have you guys noticed an issue with loading ability/item icons on performance? |
| 06:42.40 | Imhothar | yes |
| 06:42.47 | Imhothar | that's why I made the library |
| 06:43.10 | Imhothar | loading 200 icons at once is feeding the Watchdog |
| 06:43.18 | Imhothar | and it bites |
| 06:43.33 | Imhothar | the feeding hand |
| 06:45.32 | Baanano|afk | one idea imhotar: now that the textures are shared, you could keep a lookup of already loaded textures and assign them a lower weight as they should load faster |
| 06:48.11 | Solsis | Someone should teach it not to bite the hand that feeds. :P |
| 06:48.15 | NuSuey | meh only 3 chat addons :/ |
| 06:48.34 | Noshei | no chat api yet |
| 06:48.38 | Imhothar | I could, but how do I detect a texture being unloaded? |
| 06:48.49 | Noshei | so you can't really do anything with it |
| 06:49.27 | Imhothar | especially dropped from Rift's cache, because that's the point where the loading time increases again |
| 06:50.16 | NuSuey | Noshei: too bad. |
| 06:50.46 | Noshei | zorba mentioned that it should be available in the near feature |
| 06:55.39 | Baanano|afk | hadn't though about that, maybe a "persist" or whatever flag to make the loader know this texture will be used so much that once used it probably won't be dropped from the cache |
| 06:56.03 | Imhothar | will see |
| 06:56.14 | Imhothar | if that becomes an issue |
| 06:56.34 | Imhothar | the library user might just as well decrease the weight as a temporary solution |
| 06:58.11 | Baanano|afk | ok, off to work, see you later |
| 06:59.59 | Imhothar | oh cool, my character's hair just detached from its head and is floating in air |
| 07:11.00 | *** join/#riftuidev Cairenn (~Owner@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 07:11.00 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |
| 07:49.48 | arton | SO riftgame sends me error reports for my addons? When did this start? |
| 07:50.06 | Imhothar | when it was anounced on forums |
| 07:50.11 | arton | Ah |
| 07:50.23 | Imhothar | you need to rad them more often ;) |
| 07:50.27 | Imhothar | read even |
| 07:50.32 | arton | heh |
| 07:50.58 | arton | No I need to author addons that never produce errors. |
| 07:51.17 | Imhothar | People manage to do all sorts of crazy stuff |
| 07:51.27 | arton | And I'm crazy enough to do it. |
| 07:51.34 | arton | But for now, sleep. |
| 07:51.47 | Imhothar | I get errors in reports I thought impossible |
| 07:53.03 | arton | I can't reproduce this. |
| 07:53.05 | arton | :\ |
| 07:53.41 | arton | Anyway, bed |
| 07:53.45 | arton | waves. |
| 08:53.14 | *** join/#riftuidev Wildtide (0fe3b94a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.15.227.185.74) |
| 09:25.23 | *** join/#riftuidev Cairenn (~Owner@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 09:25.23 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |
| 09:42.14 | *** join/#riftuidev Myrroddin (ae03e42e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.3.228.46) |
| 11:04.40 | Wildtide | Zorba - you know what would be a really useful piece of information... a breakdown of the average time spent in each event handler (ie. the timings used by the watchdog to kill things). if we could get this, it would be a big help in knowing where to target optimisation effort |
| 11:30.26 | Wildtide | hmmm, actually, the CPU breakdown probably already gives us that doesn't it? ignore me :) |
| 11:34.56 | Wildtide | i just have a nagging concern, seeing as my addon got a one-off Watchdog warning in a function where i really didn't expect one. i don't know if something else ate up all of the time and this function was the unlucky one at the end of the queue, or if the client stuttered for some other reason (e.g. virus scanner kicking in or something), or if there really is a performance problem in this function that's going to spam people wit |
| 11:39.00 | Imhothar | if in doubt, use Quiet() as a temporary band-aid |
| 11:39.25 | Imhothar | to get rid of the warning popup at least |
| 11:42.32 | Wildtide | aye, i'm adding that into my initialisation calls today for a 1.9 release, hopefully that'll sort it out |
| 11:43.19 | Imhothar | If you got problems with texture loading you might wanna check out forums. I stumbled upon that in ImhoBags where loading 200 textures was too much |
| 11:43.43 | Wildtide | but this was a function dealing with buff changes, and i haven't been able to test my addon in a raid environment on the PTS, so i'm a little nervous it might fall over in a massive heap |
| 11:43.58 | Imhothar | Now I can create about 900 frames in one event without triggering the Watchdog |
| 11:44.00 | Wildtide | i was going to say, your Async library looks really good |
| 11:44.16 | Imhothar | it was all in the textures |
| 11:45.17 | Imhothar | it also looks kinda cool when the frame "builds itself up" with the textures. Might try to find a use case for the delayed SetPoint() stuff kicking in for some fancy effects |
| 11:45.18 | Wildtide | i'm going to try bolting it into Gadgets to see what happens. it looks so easy to plug in that there doesn't seem a reason not to use it everywhere |
| 11:45.31 | Wildtide | hehe |
| 11:46.33 | Wildtide | i assume you're queueing up a list of textures/frames, and then applying a few each time round in something like System.Update.Begin? |
| 11:46.58 | Imhothar | it can be used as a simple drop=in replacement, however I wasn't able to test it properly with multiple addons loading stuff simultaneously, so we will see how it manages in real life environments |
| 11:47.03 | Imhothar | aye |
| 11:47.19 | Imhothar | it's pretty basic, but effective |
| 11:47.29 | Imhothar | took about an hour to write, then 2 more to kill bigs and test |
| 11:47.35 | Imhothar | bugs even |
| 11:47.36 | Wildtide | nice going! |
| 11:48.41 | Imhothar | need to wait and see how the weighting stuff works out |
| 11:48.51 | Wildtide | i'd imagine all of the addons would just share the queue, and all the different addons would build themselves up. that would look pretty cool :) |
| 11:48.52 | Imhothar | whether it actually matters... |
| 11:49.16 | Imhothar | there's actually a queue per addon, so all addons get a share of the pie in a fair manner |
| 11:49.25 | Wildtide | even better |
| 11:49.30 | Imhothar | just like round-robin scheduling |
| 11:51.28 | Wildtide | what you could do, if you're not already, is share the loading between a few different event handlers. the watchdog trips on a single event handler exceeding a timing, so if you loaded some in Update.Begin, more in Update.End, etc, you get a bigger timeslice to dodge the dog :) |
| 11:51.46 | Imhothar | time will tell |
| 11:52.02 | Imhothar | but that's a ncie idea |
| 11:52.06 | Imhothar | will keep it in mind |
| 11:52.26 | Imhothar | might actually move it to End now, because everyone is using Begin |
| 11:52.36 | Wildtide | not a bad idea |
| 12:05.17 | Imhothar | I was also thinking about using Inspect.Timer.Real() to put in better timing, but I don't know whether the timer's resolution is hgih enough |
| 12:07.34 | Wildtide | it probably is, its supposed to be a high resolution timer, and you can use it to measure function call times fairly well |
| 12:08.10 | Imhothar | I was assuming that, but then Zorba himself said relying on the Watchdog giving you a certain amount of time is not suggested |
| 12:08.43 | Wildtide | no, and you don't know what else is running in that handler from other addons, so you never know how big a slice you've got to play with |
| 12:08.51 | Imhothar | plus the overhead of calling the timer so often, no idea how that would work |
| 12:09.12 | Imhothar | ya that adds up |
| 12:18.42 | Wildtide | the more i think about it, the more i don't like the watchdog tbh. we're having to do a load of work to get around it, solving problems that aren't really problems at all (who cares if it takes a second or two to build a config dialog?). i think Zorba has done an awesome job with addons, but the watchdog just seems like it's going to irritate users with no real benefit. a less obtrusive method could have been used to tell users a |
| 12:19.32 | Imhothar | the Watchdog wasn't his invention, the higher ups decided Addons need to be throttled if they cause slowdowns |
| 12:23.28 | Wildtide | yep, i know it wasn't Zorba's idea (i saw his comments from last night about the higher ups). i have massive respect for Zorba, so i'm not ranting in his direction :) |
| 12:24.17 | Imhothar | Don't mess with the evil overlord |
| 12:24.55 | Wildtide | i wouldn't dare! |
| 12:26.24 | Wildtide | i suppose i just think, if Trion want a mechanism for pointing the finger of blame at an addon to explain why RIFT has slowed down, they could have used a simple little warning triangle icon naming the addon fading in at the top corner or something. a huge dialog box is just going to annoy people |
| 12:27.17 | Imhothar | tha last reason is why addon authors will either start to do proper coding or see other people getting the job done better |
| 12:27.57 | Wildtide | aww, but i don't want to write proper code :( |
| 12:28.15 | Imhothar | obey! |
| 12:28.19 | Wildtide | lol |
| 12:30.01 | Wildtide | if/when they plug in the average timings rather than the "you just used too much CPU this frame" warnings, it'll make more sense to me. i don't think anyone cares about a blip when opening a dialog or something like that, but prolonged slowing down of the client is important |
| 12:30.37 | Imhothar | it's on Zorba's todo list, but I guess it's a bit difficult to do it by-addon |
| 12:30.47 | Wildtide | yep, i can imagine |
| 12:31.22 | Imhothar | just imagine a library thrashing the caller, you don't get that from the performance warning unless you look at the details and check the call stack |
| 12:32.15 | Imhothar | it's misleading |
| 12:33.06 | Wildtide | yep |
| 12:33.06 | Imhothar | then you get something like "LibAsyncTextures is slowing down the game" and you get like "huh? that's not on my Addon list" cause it's embedded |
| 12:33.47 | Wildtide | yes, it's wtLibUnitDatabase that the watchdog bites for my stuff. that should nicely confuse the users :) |
| 12:34.01 | Imhothar | aye |
| 12:38.52 | Wildtide | i guess the only way to do it accurately is to call into Lua separately for each addon for each event, and i can understand Zorba not wanting to do that. it would have made for a much clearer watchdog though, with each addon having it's own known timeslice to work with |
| 12:40.17 | Wildtide | actually, given the way events work, even that probably wouldn't work. it would probably need a seperate Lua context per addon |
| 13:04.53 | Baanano | hi |
| 13:05.04 | Wildtide | ello Baanano |
| 13:06.36 | Baanano | 2 hours left... |
| 13:07.35 | Imhothar | we're all gone die |
| 13:07.50 | Imhothar | and become heroes or martyrs, you never know |
| 13:08.40 | Wildtide | lol |
| 13:11.13 | Baanano | where are you from wildtide? |
| 13:11.28 | Wildtide | UK |
| 13:12.08 | Baanano | so you're too in the eu team |
| 13:12.37 | Imhothar | we got teams now? |
| 13:12.53 | Baanano | we'll see addons break for ten hours in us before it comes here |
| 13:13.16 | Wildtide | yep, Team EU rock! |
| 13:13.30 | Imhothar | it's afternoon here, so intheory we got enough time to fix em |
| 13:13.39 | Baanano | probably not teams, i just use the english words i know :P |
| 13:13.52 | Imhothar | and in theory, they should be fixed already on pts |
| 13:14.04 | Wildtide | where are you from then, Baanano? |
| 13:14.13 | Baanano | spain |
| 13:15.06 | Imhothar | we need devs from russia and korea |
| 13:15.21 | Imhothar | no one is translating my addons for those langs... |
| 13:15.39 | Imhothar | french is lagging behind as well |
| 13:15.40 | Wildtide | a Russian guy did Gadgets for me, but I've never seen anything from Korea |
| 13:16.12 | Imhothar | one russian did like half of IB, 3 months ago and didnt show up since |
| 13:16.14 | Baanano | neither have I, there are a lot of Russians but no Koreans |
| 13:16.36 | Baanano | weren't they going to release rift in another language too? |
| 13:16.40 | Imhothar | it's diablo season |
| 13:17.01 | Wildtide | and obv you did German (thanks!), and someone did French for me. was really surprised by how people just quietly did it without saying a word :) |
| 13:18.20 | Imhothar | now with the beatified print I might just put in big red letters "TRANSLATE!" |
| 13:18.29 | Imhothar | OBEY! |
| 13:19.27 | Wildtide | just run it all through Google Translate. the text will be so bad, someone will feel inspired to do it properly |
| 13:19.36 | Wildtide | at least, that's what i did, and it seemed to work :) |
| 13:19.41 | Baanano | the problem with russian and korean is their text encoding, textfields don't work well with them |
| 13:21.52 | Imhothar | I did that with french and korean basics |
| 13:22.00 | Imhothar | some guy corrected some of the korean phrases |
| 13:22.08 | Imhothar | long time ago |
| 13:22.19 | Wildtide | tbh, i've never tried running in either language. it's not an option on my client, so i just trusted they'd work ok |
| 13:22.38 | Imhothar | option? |
| 13:23.02 | Wildtide | i can select English/French/German, nothing else |
| 13:23.08 | Imhothar | well there's no real need to test it if you follow some simple rules |
| 13:23.36 | Imhothar | like not using string concatenation but format strings instead |
| 13:23.42 | Imhothar | that's the most important |
| 13:23.53 | Imhothar | then its up to the translator to figure it out |
| 13:24.36 | Wildtide | yep, you made a really good post about that in the Gadgets forum thread. i still haven't gone through the localization stuff properly though, it always seems to be bottom of the list of things to worry about |
| 13:25.00 | Imhothar | yes, unfortunately many people think that way |
| 13:25.08 | Imhothar | sometimes I do it myself |
| 13:25.34 | Imhothar | that's why for ImhoBags whenever I need text displayed I force myself to make the entry in the locale and phrases immediately |
| 13:25.56 | Wildtide | aye. i should get it sorted, lack of localization was the very first thing people commented on when i released it |
| 13:26.13 | Imhothar | Then once I*m done with it I add the German translation on Curse and hope for the rest to fill up eventually |
| 13:26.58 | Imhothar | But event ho I'm running the German client I force the Addon to English in developer mode |
| 13:27.16 | Imhothar | I rarely check how it looks in German |
| 13:27.42 | Imhothar | I did it on the config window because the texts get rather long and the textures are anchored to the text but so far so good |
| 13:29.13 | Imhothar | Another thing many forget is internationalisation (i18n) like displaying dates and times in the proper format |
| 13:30.24 | Baanano | os.date uses the english locale for weekeday and month names even if you set it to another language |
| 13:30.26 | Imhothar | funny story: sometimes you see people have text like "1 new message(s)" to cover singular and plural in one string |
| 13:30.53 | Imhothar | now in slavic languages you have 3 cases: 1, 2-4 and 5+ |
| 13:31.33 | Imhothar | and they repeat |
| 13:31.55 | Imhothar | i.e. you need different declinations for 11-14 and 15-20 |
| 13:31.56 | Imhothar | it's sick |
| 13:32.16 | Imhothar | japanese doesn't even distinguish between single/plural |
| 13:32.22 | Imhothar | that's even more sick |
| 13:33.14 | Imhothar | it's kinda intersting how many different ways there are to express the same meaning |
| 13:33.39 | *** join/#riftuidev Sunspots (~Sunspots@c213-89-208-104.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 13:33.46 | Imhothar | sorting japanese strings programatically is still an unsolved problem |
| 13:34.25 | Imhothar | that language makes everyone's life hell |
| 13:34.34 | Imhothar | they should get rid of it |
| 13:35.31 | Wildtide | lol, a little harsh perhaps? :) |
| 13:35.35 | Baanano | why can't they be sorted? |
| 13:36.03 | Wildtide | apparently, the entire world may well end up speaking either Hindi or Mandarin in the future as the de-facto international language |
| 13:36.47 | Imhothar | because in Japanese you have 3 different alphabets |
| 13:36.54 | Imhothar | but sorting is done by pronounciation |
| 13:37.12 | Imhothar | now just because two words are written the same, doesnt automatically mean they are pronounced the same |
| 13:37.16 | Imhothar | that depends on context |
| 13:37.24 | Wildtide | are you a bit of a language expert, Imho? |
| 13:37.32 | Imhothar | not an expert by far |
| 13:37.47 | Imhothar | it's just a general interst because it affects me as a i18n aware programmer |
| 13:37.53 | Wildtide | ah |
| 13:38.51 | Wildtide | the most i ever have to worry about here is French Canadian occasionally, most of the time it's just English so i'm not too hot on localizing stuff |
| 13:39.03 | Imhothar | I speak 3 languages fluently: Czech, German and English and had French and Spain at school, so I got around getting to know quite a bunch of different grammar setups and imagining there are languages out there which are again TOALLY different makes me cry |
| 13:39.39 | Imhothar | and we haven't even started about RTL writing... |
| 13:39.45 | Wildtide | :) |
| 13:39.45 | Imhothar | that's a whole topic for itself |
| 13:40.15 | Imhothar | arabic: each glyph has 4 appearances depending on its position in a word: at the beginning, the end, in the middle or standing alone |
| 13:40.54 | Imhothar | you need to select the glyph according to its position in the word AND connect it to the previous/next to get the right handwriting look because arabic doesn't have a "print" alphabet |
| 13:41.46 | Imhothar | vowels don't even have a glyph on their own, they are indicated by dots and lines placed above/below the corresponding consonant |
| 13:41.54 | Imhothar | that's just... argh |
| 13:42.40 | Baanano | it seems to be a pain |
| 13:42.45 | Imhothar | Wildtide, I don't think English will be replaced that quickly simply because it's a very simple language compared to most others |
| 13:43.25 | Wildtide | you'd think so. can't remember where i read that now, but it was only a couple of days ago |
| 13:44.20 | Imhothar | It gets mentioned here and there but I doubt it. the peple speaking Mandarin is still just about a sixth of the world population, where english is spoken by a damn big fraction |
| 13:44.27 | Imhothar | (plus its simple to learn) |
| 13:44.54 | Imhothar | I don't see that happen in my lifetime at least |
| 13:45.53 | Imhothar | unless China suddenly dominates the world by means I wouldn't like to think about |
| 13:46.34 | Wildtide | it wouldn't be in our lifetimes, that's for sure |
| 13:47.06 | Imhothar | Yeah, how many Africans thought they'd be speaking French 500 years ago |
| 13:47.37 | Imhothar | history happens |
| 13:47.44 | Wildtide | vous avez raison :) |
| 13:47.53 | Imhothar | je ne comprends rien |
| 13:47.54 | Imhothar | !! |
| 13:48.03 | Wildtide | lol |
| 13:48.18 | Imhothar | no entiendo nada |
| 13:48.22 | Imhothar | for that other guy |
| 13:49.08 | Wildtide | Yo no hablo españo |
| 13:49.27 | Wildtide | ^-- had to google that one, i really know no Spanish at all |
| 13:50.01 | Baanano | probably you can't even write the ñ with your keyboard :P |
| 13:50.17 | Wildtide | no, i can't :) |
| 13:50.23 | Baanano | ~ + n |
| 13:50.25 | Wildtide | alt gr failed me |
| 13:52.18 | Imhothar | US international layout ftw |
| 13:52.32 | Baanano | and that google translation is really bad, we don't write pronouns (Yo) when they can be derived from the verb :P |
| 13:52.43 | Imhothar | well actually modified to better suit the coder's needs |
| 13:53.24 | Imhothar | I recently started digging into Greek |
| 13:53.28 | Imhothar | that's another sick one |
| 13:54.22 | Imhothar | ?a??µ??a! |
| 13:54.49 | Wildtide | gazuntite |
| 13:55.17 | Imhothar | gazuntite? is that how you spell it in English? |
| 13:55.21 | Imhothar | hah |
| 13:55.44 | Imhothar | funny |
| 13:55.50 | Baanano | what does it mean? |
| 13:55.54 | Wildtide | Gesundheit |
| 13:56.10 | Wildtide | "good health", i think |
| 13:56.23 | Wildtide | people say it when someone sneezes, instead of "bless you" |
| 13:56.59 | Baanano | we say Jesus |
| 14:02.34 | Wildtide | 1 hour to go until the dog is unleashed? |
| 14:02.36 | Sunspots | We say "prosit" |
| 14:03.02 | Wildtide | where's that, Sunspots? |
| 14:03.02 | Baanano | where are you from sunspots? |
| 14:03.11 | Sunspots | Sweden |
| 14:03.34 | Wildtide | ah, the spiritual home of most of my furniture :) |
| 14:03.46 | Sunspots | it's derived from latin, pro (“for”), + sit (“may it be”): literally “may it be for (you)”, “may it benefit (you)” |
| 14:03.50 | Imhothar | The land of beautiful women... |
| 14:04.03 | Sunspots | (just learned that - go wiktionary!) |
| 14:04.07 | Wildtide | lol |
| 14:04.47 | Imhothar | we say "Zum Wohl" which baiscally means the same (literally "to well-being") |
| 14:05.04 | Imhothar | but we say alot of things to justify drinking in Germany... especially in Bavaria |
| 14:05.17 | Wildtide | hehe |
| 14:05.20 | Imhothar | drinking beer that is |
| 14:05.35 | Wildtide | so, in England people say Gesundheit, and in Germany they say something else entirely? |
| 14:05.45 | Imhothar | the other stuff's for prussians |
| 14:05.55 | Imhothar | for drinking? |
| 14:06.05 | Imhothar | for sneezing we use the same |
| 14:06.10 | Imhothar | that's where you stole it from |
| 14:06.28 | Wildtide | oh, gotcha. lost the thread for a minute there :) |
| 14:06.34 | Imhothar | make up your own sayings! |
| 14:06.58 | Imhothar | I was once suprised to see a list of German words common the English language |
| 14:07.04 | Imhothar | it was pretty long |
| 14:08.24 | Wildtide | it surprises me that English and German are as different as they are tbh, given that they are both classified as Germanic languages |
| 14:09.22 | Wildtide | though i guess things can get fairly diverse over 2000 years |
| 14:09.29 | Imhothar | In fact all the lanuages in Europe west of the iron curtain are Gemanic |
| 14:09.33 | Imhothar | or at least Indogermanic |
| 14:09.49 | Imhothar | the other big block is Slavic |
| 14:10.21 | Imhothar | and knowing a lanugage from both oridings you see the stark differences in grammar and vocabulary |
| 14:10.34 | Imhothar | there's barely any similarities |
| 14:11.06 | Wildtide | i'm ignorant, i only know English and some French :( |
| 14:11.19 | Imhothar | it's never too late, you know ;) |
| 14:11.50 | Wildtide | i'm working on French right now, after that it'll be Italian |
| 14:11.58 | Baanano | we have non germanic languages here in south europe :P |
| 14:12.01 | Imhothar | But I understand that. If the whole planet spoke German, why learn something else? |
| 14:12.56 | Wildtide | don't you think eventually that'll happen? with the internet/easy travel |
| 14:13.02 | Imhothar | maybe that's where the lack of interest in foreign countries comes from in the US, most people don't have a reason to deal with other cultures/languages because they get along in any significant part of the world |
| 14:13.42 | Imhothar | Baanano, you mean spanish? |
| 14:13.50 | Baanano | i think we'll invent a way to communicate concepts no matter which language you use before we all speak the same language |
| 14:13.50 | Wildtide | yes, it is too easy if you speak English. i just got back from France, and even when i spoke French to people, they often replied in English when they realised I was English |
| 14:14.50 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-67-161-146-244.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 14:15.15 | Baanano | yeah imhotar, Spanish, French, Italian... the romance languages derived from latin |
| 14:15.16 | Imhothar | heh true story: last time I was in France I asked the garcon "parlez vous alleman?" and he got outraged. "parlez voud ingles?" and he looked like he'd throw us out |
| 14:16.38 | Wildtide | hehe |
| 14:17.35 | Noshei | morning everyone |
| 14:17.40 | Wildtide | hiya Nosh |
| 14:17.41 | Imhothar | Well in the end half the lanugages on the world are rooted in indo-germanic |
| 14:18.55 | Wildtide | or in keeping with the current theme... Bonjour Noshei. Comment allez-vous? |
| 14:19.24 | Imhothar | Jak se má? |
| 14:20.05 | Noshei | Yo soy bueno, a ti mismo? |
| 14:20.30 | Imhothar | I'm getting evil memories from school right now |
| 14:20.55 | Wildtide | :) |
| 14:21.07 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-67-161-146-244.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 14:21.13 | Baanano | you should stop using google to translate to spanish >_< |
| 14:21.14 | Imhothar | We need to do some advertising for Russian and Korean developers |
| 14:21.35 | Imhothar | get some of that gibberish into here |
| 14:21.41 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-67-161-146-244.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 14:21.59 | Wildtide | grabs hold of Noshei, and tries in vain to keep him in the channel... |
| 14:22.20 | Imhothar | fun fact about Korean: It is integrated into the lanugage to address a superior with his title, and not his name |
| 14:22.27 | Noshei | my IRC client just closed itself for no reason, twice |
| 14:22.57 | Imhothar | that's not a politeness thing, it's part of the lanugage! |
| 14:23.01 | Imhothar | again, sickness |
| 14:23.16 | Wildtide | heh, how do you determine if someone is superior? |
| 14:23.29 | Imhothar | well obviously if you know he is |
| 14:23.52 | Imhothar | but if you don't you probably don't even know his name either |
| 14:24.05 | Wildtide | you really are the wikipedia of language ;) |
| 14:24.06 | Imhothar | but maybe they have solutions for that |
| 14:24.22 | Imhothar | to be honest that almost covers all my knowledge |
| 14:24.52 | Imhothar | I could talk to you way more facts about programming lanugages tho :p |
| 14:25.15 | Baanano | probably they address a stranger as a superior |
| 14:25.38 | Imhothar | possible, but then what title do you use |
| 14:26.28 | Wildtide | go on then, what programming languages are you fluent in (or have been in the past)? |
| 14:26.34 | Baanano | a default one, perhaps by sex and age |
| 14:26.52 | Imhothar | the one I use most by far is C++ |
| 14:26.59 | Baanano | anyway, back to work, see you later |
| 14:27.19 | Wildtide | cya Baanano |
| 14:27.26 | Imhothar | hasta luego |
| 14:27.46 | Wildtide | oops, i mean... Au revoir |
| 14:27.58 | Imhothar | wrong language |
| 14:28.14 | Imhothar | I'm sure he understands tho |
| 14:28.19 | Wildtide | only non English one i know without resorting to Google ;) |
| 14:28.59 | Wildtide | Baanano->sayGoodbye(); |
| 14:29.58 | Baanano | print({"adios", "hasta luego"}[rand(2)]) |
| 14:30.25 | Wildtide | oh, nice! :) |
| 14:30.34 | Wildtide | lua> print({"adios", "hasta luego"}[rand(2)]) |
| 14:30.35 | lua_bot | Wildtide: luabot:1: ')' expected near '[' |
| 14:31.29 | Wildtide | aww, Lua's not quite as clever as i thought |
| 14:32.40 | Baanano | lua> print(({"adios", "hasta luego"})[math.random(2)]) |
| 14:32.41 | lua_bot | Baanano: adios |
| 14:37.49 | Wildtide | :) |
| 14:44.23 | Wildtide | well, i never knew putting a table literal in brackets would let you index it directly... |
| 14:45.28 | Imhothar | wouldn't it be awesome if we could left/right align the title of a RiftWindow? |
| 14:45.32 | Imhothar | It takes away so much space |
| 15:11.39 | *** join/#riftuidev Baanano (~chatzilla@5.pool85-53-138.dynamic.orange.es) |
| 15:36.44 | Wildtide | Amary: Shards are locked and are getting the extra-special checks we do on major update days. |
| 15:36.51 | Wildtide | they're feeding the watchdog... |
| 15:46.19 | Noshei | shards are coming up for NA |
| 15:48.20 | Wildtide | has his fingers crossed for the castbar fix |
| 15:49.52 | Noshei | looks good |
| 15:59.07 | Solsis|zzz | Why is the Rift Addon folder now in my documents =( |
| 16:01.00 | Imhothar | The first performance warning post on forums heh |
| 16:01.14 | Imhothar | Let's see how many we get |
| 16:24.05 | Wildtide | can't see that one Imho, where is it? |
| 16:24.58 | Imhothar | KBM |
| 16:26.12 | Wildtide | oh yeah, missed that |
| 16:44.39 | Noshei | I'm creating an in-game chat channel for us all, use AddonAuthors@Faeblight |
| 16:51.16 | *** join/#riftuidev Torhal|work (~torhal_wo@67.58.77.206) |
| 16:51.18 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+v Torhal|work] by ChanServ |
| 17:03.08 | Baanano | hi |
| 17:17.29 | Solsis|zzz | hello |
| 17:17.52 | Solsis | I'm still trying to figure out why the crap my addons are suddenly in my My Documents folder |
| 17:18.11 | Noshei | was in the patch notes... |
| 17:18.41 | Baanano | we were told they would be there some weeks ago |
| 17:21.44 | Solsis | I dont' like it |
| 17:21.52 | Solsis | and I guess I missed that when I read the notes |
| 17:22.32 | Solsis | because now the PTS and my live addon will be in the same addon directory |
| 17:22.35 | Noshei | they did it to resolve issues with saved variables |
| 17:23.06 | Noshei | the interface folder in the actual game directory still works and will be used first if its there |
| 17:23.25 | Solsis | apparently not |
| 17:23.42 | Baanano | i think the my documents one is used first |
| 17:23.43 | Solsis | when I loaded the game it had 3 addons listed. Which are the ones I used on the PTS |
| 17:24.02 | Solsis | And Baanano is probably right |
| 17:24.35 | Solsis | I guess i'll get used to it.. i'll have to find a diff way around my current setup. But oh well I guess. |
| 17:25.32 | Noshei | is the main folder just called Rift? |
| 17:25.57 | Noshei | the one in My Docs |
| 17:27.09 | Noshei | because it didnt create an addon folder in my documents for me |
| 17:27.50 | Noshei | and I'm thinking it might be because I already had My Documents/Rift/Addons folders created that I use for stuff |
| 17:28.23 | Baanano | Added a valid Addon directory under My Documents. Rift will use this new directory if it has things in it. If not, it will check the old directory under the Rift install location. If neither location has addons installed, it will use the new location. This shouldn't break any existing installations, although new addon users will have their addons stored in a new place. Addon updater authors... |
| 17:28.24 | Baanano | ...should be aware of this change! |
| 17:29.19 | Noshei | so what is the folder structure it created named? |
| 17:29.37 | Baanano | no idea, eu client hasn't been updated yet :P |
| 17:45.01 | seebs | Same as the standard addon folder, I believe. |
| 18:08.41 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar (Miranda@ppp-188-174-67-238.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 18:09.09 | *** join/#riftuidev Wildtide (~Wildtide@host86-135-35-192.range86-135.btcentralplus.com) |
| 18:51.27 | Imhothar | Meh tell time to hurry up, I need 1.9 here.... |
| 19:02.10 | Noshei | so with a simple table like {10, 2, 58, 29, 49} would you have to refer to each position by a numeric key starting at 1? |
| 19:02.53 | Baanano | lua> print( ({10, 2, 58, 29, 49})[1] ) |
| 19:02.55 | lua_bot | Baanano: 10 |
| 19:03.29 | Noshei | yeah thats what i thought |
| 19:04.28 | Imhothar | lua> print( ({ x = 1, a = 3, 11, 12, 13})[2] ) |
| 19:04.29 | lua_bot | Imhothar: 12 |
| 19:04.38 | Imhothar | mixing dictionaries and arrays is also possible |
| 19:05.22 | Baanano | lua> print( ({ x = 1, a = 3, [10] = 7, 11, 12, 13})[2] ) |
| 19:05.23 | lua_bot | Baanano: 12 |
| 19:05.24 | Imhothar | lua> print( ({ 11, x = 1, 12, a = 3, 13})[2] ) |
| 19:05.24 | lua_bot | Imhothar: 12 |
| 19:05.46 | Noshei | well I just want a table like what I posted and be able to remove values without knowing the position of the value, which I guess I would do with a iterator |
| 19:06.07 | Imhothar | yeah, you have to loop through it |
| 19:06.21 | Imhothar | ipairs |
| 19:06.49 | Noshei | yeah, better looping through only a few values than an unlimited amount |
| 19:06.52 | Imhothar | or (a little faster than with ipairs): for i = 1, #t do print(t[i]) end |
| 19:07.21 | Imhothar | "unlimited amount"? you have Deep Thought in your cellar? |
| 19:07.58 | Noshei | well I'm not sure if there is a max on mail messages |
| 19:08.09 | Imhothar | definitely |
| 19:08.16 | Noshei | so far I'm at 50 on my alt i'm using to test |
| 19:08.33 | Imhothar | I can hear the admins crying "WHAT? NO LIMITS? NOT IN MY DATABASE!" |
| 19:09.04 | Noshei | I can see it with mail, because they get purged anyway |
| 19:09.19 | Imhothar | but still, iterating 50 items is like ... you won't notice |
| 19:09.23 | Imhothar | not even 500 mails |
| 19:09.46 | Noshei | I'm already doing a lot of loops st this point |
| 19:10.05 | Imhothar | it's a frickin computer |
| 19:10.20 | Imhothar | it can do tons of loops before you notice lag |
| 19:10.37 | Noshei | yeah |
| 19:11.14 | Imhothar | the watchdog is currently set at 0.1 seconds, whcih at 30 fps is 3 frames. now imagine how many computations happen within a single frame |
| 19:11.29 | Imhothar | you need to top that |
| 19:11.49 | Imhothar | which is possible, we see that happen now |
| 19:12.20 | Imhothar | but you see it happen mainly in code which does alot (I mean A LOT) of API calls like *.Detail() |
| 19:12.31 | Baanano | or SetTexture |
| 19:12.33 | Imhothar | or creating frames |
| 19:12.34 | Noshei | it doesnt like loading up my UI so far, but thats with about 500-600 frames |
| 19:12.37 | Imhothar | or set texture |
| 19:12.49 | Imhothar | set texture is actually I/O limited, not CPU |
| 19:13.40 | Imhothar | I hit the Watchdog at creating about 900 frames at once, but at least on ym PC taht's quite on the limit. sometimes it gets a warning sometimes it doesn't |
| 19:15.00 | Baanano | what i'm finding weird is that loading 1200 png textures doesn't trigger the watchdog, but 10 internal ones does (even if they're the same) |
| 19:16.06 | Imhothar | depends on the size |
| 19:16.08 | Imhothar | and other things |
| 19:16.15 | Noshei | well all of the textures I'm loading are basic frames with some color or text frames, but I think for each piece of mail I load around 10-15 frames |
| 19:16.25 | Imhothar | loading a texture involves lots of different systems |
| 19:16.38 | Noshei | *frames not textures |
| 19:17.07 | Noshei | I'm only loading about 10 textures total, though 2 of them will get used multiple times |
| 19:17.08 | Imhothar | then you also get the gpu driver involved doing its own things |
| 19:17.50 | Imhothar | up until now loading external textures was really slow because Rift didn't cache those. It does now and it's noticeable |
| 19:18.01 | Imhothar | very |
| 19:18.17 | seebs | How so? |
| 19:18.24 | seebs | I hadn't looked closely at this, I don't use many textures. |
| 19:18.38 | Imhothar | that's just the way it was |
| 19:18.46 | Imhothar | external textures weren't cached. period |
| 19:19.06 | Imhothar | they are since the second last 1.9 patch |
| 19:19.26 | seebs | I guess I meant "how is it noticeable"? |
| 19:19.49 | Imhothar | because the game loaded every external texture from disk every time you called SetTexture(), now it just re-uses already loaded textures which are cached |
| 19:19.59 | Baanano | the ones that don't seem to be cached now are internal ones |
| 19:20.27 | Noshei | basically instead of doing a read from storage it is doing a read from memory |
| 19:20.55 | Imhothar | Scenario in ImhoBags: The corner indicating the rarity of an item is a texture, one per rarity as we cannot tint textures. Having 50 items with "uncommon" rarity loaded the texture 50 times. Now it loads only once and reuses 49 times |
| 19:21.10 | seebs | Does this affect just load time, or also runtime behavior? |
| 19:21.17 | Imhothar | loading only |
| 19:21.21 | seebs | Wait, we can't tint textures? I totally thought we could. |
| 19:21.26 | Imhothar | no |
| 19:21.33 | seebs | I might be getting confused, I've been using Rift and another API. |
| 19:21.36 | Imhothar | we can set the background color and make it translucent |
| 19:21.49 | Imhothar | which is not the same |
| 19:22.04 | seebs | Corona's API lets you multiplicative-tint things, but not additive-tint them. |
| 19:22.30 | Imhothar | multiplicative would do |
| 19:22.40 | Imhothar | you can mimick additive blend with alpha |
| 19:22.50 | Imhothar | but not color modulation |
| 19:23.19 | seebs | What I ended up doing was making duplicates of all my textures which are all-pixels-white, then keeping them in front and using additive rendering (which Corona has for textures) and tint to add color bits. |
| 19:23.49 | Imhothar | color modulation is quite a basic feature, really |
| 19:24.47 | Imhothar | it's one of the first things you do when learning OpenGL texturing |
| 19:25.23 | Imhothar | but Zorba would need an interface to the rendering code to do that, no idea how that works out at Trion |
| 19:25.37 | Imhothar | or whether ScaleForm has that out-of-the-box |
| 19:26.42 | Imhothar | the ultimate UI would allow you to wrote your own fragment shader for your widgets |
| 19:26.45 | Imhothar | that would rock |
| 19:30.48 | seebs | I keep wishing Corona would add a little more flexibility in color control. :) |
| 20:08.40 | *** join/#riftuidev Torhal|work (~torhal_wo@67.58.77.206) |
| 20:08.41 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+v Torhal|work] by ChanServ |
| 20:27.31 | ZorbaGama | to be honest, color modulation has been one of those things that keeps getting pushed back because time |
| 20:27.48 | ZorbaGama | it shouldn't be difficult, but I know it's going to be a bit of an unexpected pain just because of how that system works. |
| 20:30.06 | Imhothar | there's definitely more important stuff than that |
| 20:30.59 | *** join/#riftuidev Cairenn (~Owner@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 20:31.00 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |
| 20:31.15 | ZorbaGama | yeah, it's always a bit of a balance. which is more critical - color modulation that takes me four hours to rig up, or a keybind system that takes me a week to rig up? assume a 100% margin of error or more |
| 20:31.43 | Imhothar | pah errors |
| 20:31.46 | Imhothar | who cares :p |
| 20:36.55 | seebs | Well, you're being silly. Both are more important than your family or sleep. To us. |
| 20:37.39 | Imhothar | too bad customers never know what they really want |
| 20:38.47 | seebs | I wonder if there's anything the client has access to that could be exposed to help people with performance-tuning. |
| 20:39.26 | Imhothar | probably nothing that complies to the EULA ;) |
| 20:39.29 | seebs | Like, information distinguishing between "game engine thinking" time and "GPU rendering" time. |
| 20:40.16 | seebs | Was just thinking that if the client could dump stuff like "ms GPU needed to render last frame" and "ms engine needed to set up last frame" and such into a table we could *.Inspect.* in some way, it would be easier for people to figure out what if anything they could upgrade to improve performance. |
| 20:41.46 | Noshei | oh hey zorbagama, I know you said that recent errors are stores in a log in game, but can we have that log stored to a txt file in the game directory? |
| 20:43.35 | ZorbaGama | seebs, multithreading makes that complicated, but you can get a reasonable idea by just moving your graphics settings around |
| 20:44.05 | ZorbaGama | noshei, hmm, interesting idea. I'm not sure it's worth the trouble though - you could rig up an addon that reads that store and just print()s it, and kapow, there's your log |
| 20:44.52 | Noshei | well I'm thinking more from a user end as well. They come to us with issues would be easy for them to send us the log |
| 20:45.20 | ZorbaGama | I'm hoping the copy-to-clipboard button in the error window helps with that |
| 20:45.33 | seebs | Well, the big issue is just that right now, there's simply no practical way to figure out whether we're GPU-limited or CPU-limited in a given case, because the loads fluctuate too quickly to get useful numbers. |
| 20:45.40 | ZorbaGama | I'll think about the logging, though, I can see how that would be useful |
| 20:45.43 | Noshei | I think the ignore button will trump that in most cases |
| 20:45.45 | seebs | You never see a steady 90% usage of a core, ever; it's always 30%-90% bouncing. |
| 20:45.53 | Imhothar | well I noticed today errors aren't written to Log.txt anymore when /log is turned on |
| 20:45.59 | ZorbaGama | seebs, well, that's partially thanks to windows' CPU load balancing |
| 20:46.08 | ZorbaGama | imhothar, yeah, that's a bug, I've got a fix that will show up in a hotfix |
| 20:46.14 | seebs | Yeah. And in theory the main thread has a core preference, but it seems not super effective. |
| 20:46.24 | ZorbaGama | Command.Console.Display() doesn't get logged and it should, and the new error system relies on that :) |
| 20:46.30 | seebs | And of course, we still can't easily tell "GPU triangle setup" from "CPU setup". |
| 20:46.46 | Imhothar | seebs, the schedulers for current multi-core architextures are very complex beasts |
| 20:46.50 | seebs | I suspect some people have ended up in situations where the GPU geometry engine is the killer. |
| 20:47.10 | seebs | Because they can mess with resolution and AA all they want, and nothing happens, so it's not fill rate. And the CPU isn't capped. |
| 20:47.12 | ZorbaGama | seebs, to be honest, some of these are tools that are just very hard to produce. modern game engines are hideously complex and have a ton of moving and intersecting pieces |
| 20:47.16 | seebs | Yeah. |
| 20:47.36 | ZorbaGama | at some point it becomes less "EULA" and becomes more "man, I wish we *did* have that information" :) |
| 20:47.38 | seebs | Yeah. |
| 20:47.42 | Imhothar | there's hyper threading, there's core boost, there's speed step and yadda yadda the sceduler needs to wrk out all the fancy technologies chip designers come up with |
| 20:47.52 | seebs | There's sort of an underlying issue somewhere around here, which is that *something* seems to be up with Rift's engine. |
| 20:48.25 | Noshei | I can vouch for that seebs |
| 20:48.55 | seebs | In that it performs disproportionately-worse on AMD GPUs. As in, if you compare framerates between a particular pair of GPUs in a lot of games, whatever the relationship is, if you switch to Rift, the AMD GPU suddenly performs worse than you would have expected. |
| 20:49.00 | Imhothar | you cann stall your GPU on about 5 different ends |
| 20:49.26 | Noshei | I'll see hardly any CPU and GPU utilization while in a fight, and will get crap fps because rift isn't using the power my machine has |
| 20:49.41 | seebs | Yeah. It'd be neat if the GPU vendors gave some kind of indicators for utilization per-subsystem or something. |
| 20:50.10 | Noshei | I think that information is there, it's just a matter of finding it |
| 20:50.29 | ZorbaGama | a lot of it comes down to problems involved with MMOs. more than almost any other game, MMO rendering engines have to be ready to handle whatever the game throws at it |
| 20:50.33 | Imhothar | fillrate limited, fragment shader limited, vertex shader limited, texture read limited, vertex read limited, command queue limited, synchronization overhead and I bet I forgot some |
| 20:50.36 | seebs | Yeah. |
| 20:51.00 | seebs | And there's a TON of crazy stuff -- huge variety in textures, lots and lots of models, and all the models have to be pretty fancy because players complain if they don't look good, and... |
| 20:51.05 | ZorbaGama | combine that with the fact that MMO graphics is rarely one of the top selling points and you end up with kind of substandard graphics on true openworld MMOs |
| 20:51.15 | ZorbaGama | Yep. |
| 20:51.40 | ZorbaGama | People expect that, when they're standing still in an empty room, the character looks as good as single model in a UE4 game. |
| 20:51.55 | ZorbaGama | Which we could do. But then they expect it to look just as good when they're in the middle of a hundred-person Conquest free-for-all. |
| 20:52.14 | ZorbaGama | Which isn't going to happen no matter how much time we spend improving rendering. :) |
| 20:52.16 | Imhothar | did I mention customers don't know what they really want? |
| 20:52.34 | ZorbaGama | I've occasionally described game design as the process of tricking endusers into having fun despite their best efforts. |
| 20:52.38 | Noshei | seebs, check out http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653 |
| 20:52.49 | ZorbaGama | Seriously, it's amazing what people will do to avoid fun. |
| 20:53.00 | Noshei | you will need to enable these columns for the GPU: |
| 20:53.01 | Noshei | GPU Usage |
| 20:53.01 | Noshei | GPU Committed Bytes |
| 20:53.01 | Noshei | GPU System Byes |
| 20:53.01 | Noshei | GPU Dedicated Bytes |
| 20:53.26 | seebs | Huh, that gives a sort of crazy thought. |
| 20:53.30 | seebs | Which might be woefully expensive, etc. |
| 20:53.34 | Noshei | it's windows only though, no wine for it i believe |
| 20:54.00 | seebs | Which is what if there were some chintzy trick undertaken to reduce the fidelity of other-player models scaling with the number of them in view? |
| 20:54.08 | Noshei | that program is actually built into w8 |
| 20:54.40 | Imhothar | seebs thats called LOD = Level of detail and people do that since Quake 1 |
| 20:55.02 | seebs | Because something like that could really help a ton with zone events and raids. |
| 20:55.11 | seebs | ... And yes, it is AMAZING how hard people will work to avoid having fun. |
| 20:55.27 | ZorbaGama | yep, what imhothar said. However, if done badly, it can actually *reduce* framerate and cause other problems. I honestly don't know where the bottleneck is - it may be that reducing model quality wouldn't help us. |
| 20:55.55 | Imhothar | Rift has LOD, every major engine has LOD, you can see that on character models suddenly "plopping". That's usually where the engine switches between detail levels |
| 20:55.58 | ZorbaGama | (I'm not in Rendering so this is all pretty much wild guessing on my part, note :V) |
| 20:56.11 | seebs | Yeah. I don't *think* it should be the game engine logic side of things, but it's really hard to tell. |
| 20:58.08 | Wildtide | wakes up |
| 20:58.13 | Wildtide | ello folks :) |
| 21:00.06 | Wildtide | how's 1.9 going in the US? no probs? |
| 21:00.44 | ZorbaGama | Nothin' super-major. Instant Adventure is off, but that's the only big thing I know of. |
| 21:02.10 | Noshei | I had an error pop up for wtLibUnit wildtide, ill see if I can get it again |
| 21:02.18 | Wildtide | cool, that's good news. |
| 21:02.26 | Wildtide | and that's not... |
| 21:02.29 | Noshei | oh nm, it was LibCore |
| 21:02.34 | Noshei | Error: performance warning |
| 21:02.34 | Noshei | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:02.34 | Noshei | stack traceback: |
| 21:02.34 | Noshei | [C]: in function 'createFrame_core' |
| 21:02.34 | Noshei | wtLibUnitFrame/wtElement.lua:56: in function 'Create' |
| 21:02.34 | Noshei | wtLibUnitFrame/wtUnitFrame.lua:169: in function 'CreateElement' |
| 21:02.36 | Noshei | NosheisGadgets/templates/MiniRaidFrame.lua:186: in function 'Construct' |
| 21:02.39 | Noshei | wtLibUnitFrame/wtUnitFrame.lua:237: in function 'CreateFromTemplate' |
| 21:02.41 | Noshei | wtLibUnitFrame/wtUnitFrame.lua:479: in function 'Create' |
| 21:02.43 | Noshei | wtLibGadget/wtGadget.lua:132: in function <wtLibGadget/wtGadget.lua:131> |
| 21:02.45 | Noshei | [C]: in function 'pcall' |
| 21:02.48 | Noshei | wtLibGadget/wtGadget.lua:130: in function 'Create' |
| 21:02.50 | Noshei | wtLibGadget/wtGadget.lua:556: in function 'init' |
| 21:02.52 | Noshei | wtLibCore/wtCore.lua:228: in function <wtLibCore/wtCore.lua:219> |
| 21:02.57 | Imhothar | just send him a mail already... |
| 21:03.10 | Wildtide | ~whaleslap Imhothar |
| 21:03.10 | purl | ACTION beats Imhothar upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh |
| 21:03.26 | Wildtide | thanks Nosh :) |
| 21:03.42 | Noshei | hey zorbagama, I think .available is not working correctly still! |
| 21:03.45 | Imhothar | I have a colluege who'd post 20 pages of stacktrace on Skype |
| 21:04.03 | Imhothar | and while you try to read it, he keeps writing new lines and the stuff scrolls up all the time |
| 21:04.12 | Noshei | I'm about 90% sure thats what the problem is there wild |
| 21:04.26 | Noshei | I'll switch it out to availability to confirm |
| 21:04.40 | Wildtide | looks like a setup thing. my first plan is to add a .Quiet before i call the initializers, which should hopefully fix that |
| 21:05.36 | ZorbaGama | noshei, argh. wouldn't surprise me. got repro steps? |
| 21:08.31 | Noshei | swapping to Availability to check, otherwise its just using Gadgets with some frames created, in this case a raid frame |
| 21:09.16 | ZorbaGama | In fairness, if it's Event.Unit.Available, part of my solution is going to be "stop using that" :V |
| 21:09.32 | ZorbaGama | but it's worth checking to see how broken it is and how easy it would be to fix |
| 21:10.54 | Wildtide | the next version (for 1.9) will be switched over to new availability, but it'll be tomorrow when i'm on 1.9 in live |
| 21:11.23 | ZorbaGama | yeah, no immediate rush, though note that most-if-not-all of the "deprecated" stuff will be vanishing as of 1.10 |
| 21:11.54 | Wildtide | does using .Available trigger the strict check? |
| 21:12.25 | Wildtide | i'm guessing not, seeing as it's an event |
| 21:13.55 | Noshei | yeah confirmed that switching to Availability fixed it |
| 21:14.11 | Wildtide | what was the problem, Nosh? |
| 21:14.27 | Noshei | something with Available |
| 21:14.53 | Noshei | swapped to the new Available.Full and Available.None and no error |
| 21:15.08 | Wildtide | the performance error? |
| 21:15.21 | Noshei | no, the one I posted up a bit |
| 21:15.31 | Noshei | oh yeah I guess it was |
| 21:16.26 | Noshei | so thats interesting that using .Available would cause watchdog to go off |
| 21:18.43 | Wildtide | does seem odd, but not to worry, it'll be gone soon :) |
| 21:21.11 | Wildtide | Portugal/Spain just gone to penalties... if anyone cares ;) |
| 21:21.29 | Noshei | ZorbaGama, just got an error with dev tools |
| 21:21.47 | ZorbaGama | do you have the latest version? there's an update as of a week or two ago |
| 21:21.52 | Baanano | yeah i'm watching it |
| 21:21.57 | Noshei | watchdog got it |
| 21:22.02 | ZorbaGama | (the watchdog didn't play nicely with /dump) |
| 21:22.05 | Wildtide | thought you might be Baanano :) |
| 21:22.09 | Wildtide | two nice saves! |
| 21:22.30 | Noshei | all it's using right now is /eventlog Event.System.Error |
| 21:22.38 | ZorbaGama | huh |
| 21:22.43 | ZorbaGama | that shouldn't be a problem |
| 21:22.46 | Noshei | had 2 errors at once and watchdog got the dev tools |
| 21:23.03 | ZorbaGama | interesting, I'll see if I can figure that out |
| 21:23.03 | Noshei | and I have 1.8.2 |
| 21:24.50 | Solsis | Hey Zorba.. can we provide multiple addresses in the .toc files? and will both emails get the report? |
| 21:24.57 | ZorbaGama | solsis, nope |
| 21:25.12 | Solsis | awwh |
| 21:25.13 | Solsis | ok |
| 21:25.36 | ZorbaGama | if you want to distribute reports, give it a custom address and do a little scripting in thunderbird or whatever :) |
| 21:25.40 | Solsis | Nice work on 1.9's API changes. |
| 21:25.53 | ZorbaGama | thanks :) |
| 21:26.05 | Solsis | I use google. I'll let it do all the work. Just setup a forwarding rule. |
| 21:26.47 | Wildtide | gz Baanano! |
| 21:26.48 | Solsis | SmartGit btw so far I <3 it.. the frickin change comparing window is like heaven. |
| 21:27.00 | Baanano | yeah :D |
| 21:27.37 | Wildtide | yep, it's a lot nicer than the bundled GUI Sol |
| 21:28.28 | ZorbaGama | as much as I love Git, the GUIs still need a lot of work. Smartgit is the best one I've found too. |
| 21:39.00 | Wildtide | can anyone explain how the new Availability events help sort out buffs? is it something to do with going Partial when previously fully available? |
| 21:43.22 | Noshei | oh I created an in-game chat channel for us all, use AddonAuthors@Faeblight |
| 21:43.47 | Noshei | only works for NA though :( |
| 21:44.03 | Imhothar | so its for the "other" team ;) |
| 21:45.16 | Wildtide | yeah, the B-Team |
| 21:45.25 | Imhothar | BOOHYA! |
| 21:49.42 | Noshei | well you guys can have one over there in EU as well |
| 21:51.33 | seebs | That channel thing is brilliant in principle, but if they don't start actually doing something about the persistent channel trolls, Faeblight's doomed. |
| 21:52.41 | Noshei | 50 chat is already horrible on faeblight as is |
| 21:54.46 | Wildtide | in EU, loads of players have moved to one server. 50 chat has already degraded into anal spam. really depressing |
| 21:56.18 | Wildtide | does Command.System.Watchdog.Quiet() completely disable the watchdog for the event it's in? |
| 21:57.06 | Wildtide | or does it increase the threshold? |
| 21:57.10 | Imhothar | for one second |
| 21:57.12 | Baanano | no, just gives you a full second |
| 21:57.52 | Wildtide | ah, ok. that should be plenty |
| 22:05.05 | Wildtide | right, Gadgets for 1.9 is ready to go, but i'll be waiting for it to hit EU so I can test it properly in a raid/instance before i throw it out there |
| 22:11.29 | seebs | I really do not understand why Trion doesn't take any real action on the trolls. |
| 22:11.48 | seebs | I don't really see how losing a hundred trolls' accounts is worse than losing the thousands they drive off. |
| 22:12.59 | Imhothar | that's an assumption |
| 22:13.04 | Wildtide | isn't withdrawing a paid-for service a bit of a legal minefield, if they're not doing something blantantly against the T&Cs? |
| 22:13.20 | Imhothar | and is probably related to the "no public statistics" stuff |
| 22:13.53 | Imhothar | cursing your mother on a public channel is so much against the TOS |
| 22:14.02 | Imhothar | well not your own |
| 22:14.07 | Wildtide | ah, yes |
| 22:14.08 | Imhothar | other peoples' |
| 22:14.13 | Imhothar | maybe your own, too |
| 22:14.21 | Noshei | hey wildtide, can you toss it up to your git repo so I can pull it down, will be raiding soon so I'll let you know of any issues |
| 22:14.32 | Wildtide | already have |
| 22:14.57 | Wildtide | but it's literally untested, not even on the PTS, so there could be typos in there :) |
| 22:15.20 | Solsis | O.O |
| 22:15.24 | Wildtide | all i did was update .tocs, change the availability, and add a .Quiet() |
| 22:15.33 | Noshei | v0.4.0 right? |
| 22:15.35 | Wildtide | gonna give it a go on the PTS now |
| 22:15.45 | Solsis | sooo... I found out what I don't like about SmartGit |
| 22:15.58 | Wildtide | no, it's 0.3.64, but no tag or branch, just the latest commit on mainline |
| 22:16.22 | Imhothar | there's always a branch infidel |
| 22:16.46 | Wildtide | hehe, ok, Mr. Pedantic ;p |
| 22:16.56 | Imhothar | someone has to do the job |
| 22:17.06 | Wildtide | ~whaletrout Imhothar |
| 22:17.06 | purl | ACTION slaps Imhothar with Hugh's more acrobatic cousin, Milliardo, who in turn slaps Imhothar around a bit with a large trout |
| 22:17.11 | Solsis | I apparently can't push to more than one repo |
| 22:17.40 | Imhothar | I like Hugh's family |
| 22:17.46 | Wildtide | me too :) |
| 22:18.03 | Wildtide | that seems odd Sol, sure there isn't a hidden option somewhere? |
| 22:18.14 | Imhothar | you need to add a second remote |
| 22:18.23 | Imhothar | then you can push to whichever you want with advanced push |
| 22:18.42 | Imhothar | normal push pushes to the tracked remote branch |
| 22:19.18 | Solsis | ok |
| 22:19.24 | Solsis | I'll look there |
| 22:19.43 | Solsis | I already have the 2nd one set up. Will try the advanced push thing. |
| 22:20.21 | Wildtide | man i really need to read the Git manual. i've clearly only scratched the surface of it |
| 22:21.59 | Solsis | Same |
| 22:22.12 | Wildtide | but for now, i'm going to go and read a book (but not a Git manual) and get some sleep |
| 22:22.15 | Solsis | and that worked. Thanks Imhothar |
| 22:25.09 | ZorbaGama | IMHO the best way to understand Git is to understand what's happening under the surface |
| 22:25.14 | ZorbaGama | it's a very elegant and simple layout |
| 22:27.16 | Noshei | hey wildtide, did you push that to your curse git repo? |
| 22:27.38 | Wildtide|zzz | just got back from PTS test, looks fine |
| 22:27.41 | Wildtide|zzz | yes i did |
| 22:28.20 | Noshei | git says 0.4.0, toc says 0.3.63 |
| 22:28.41 | Wildtide|zzz | hmm, that's odd, lemme have a look |
| 22:28.56 | Wildtide|zzz | the 0.4.0 branch is old and dead (it was a dead end development) |
| 22:29.12 | Wildtide|zzz | but if you're seeing 0.3.63, that's right |
| 22:29.30 | Wildtide|zzz | no it's not, argh |
| 22:29.35 | Wildtide|zzz | missed the main .toc |
| 22:29.39 | Wildtide|zzz | lol |
| 22:30.19 | Wildtide|zzz | ok, try now |
| 22:30.26 | Wildtide|zzz | i'll see where that 0.4.0 is coming from |
| 22:31.14 | Wildtide|zzz | oh yeah, i've got a remote 0.4.0 branch that needs to go |
| 22:31.28 | Wildtide|zzz | now it's gone |
| 22:31.42 | Noshei | yeah git still only had 0.4.0 as latest tag, but I got the right toc |
| 22:32.28 | Wildtide|zzz | as long as you're pulling the master branch, should be fine |
| 22:32.39 | Baanano | see you tomorrow |
| 22:32.45 | Wildtide|zzz | cya |
| 22:33.33 | Noshei | whats up with the mainline folder in there? |
| 22:33.51 | Wildtide|zzz | that's Curse |
| 22:34.42 | Wildtide|zzz | it always creates a mainline repo for your addon, so if you pull it down, you get a mainline folder |
| 22:35.05 | Noshei | well its got KBM in it |
| 22:35.15 | Wildtide|zzz | eh? |
| 22:36.48 | Wildtide|zzz | go to an emptry directory and run: git clone git://git.curseforge.net/rift/gadgets/mainline.git |
| 22:37.34 | Wildtide|zzz | you should get a mainline directory, full of Gadgets |
| 22:38.28 | Noshei | I just deleted the mainline that was there, no big deal |
| 22:39.56 | Wildtide|zzz | right, i'm really going this time. nn folks :) |
| 22:40.19 | Noshei | night |