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| 18:41.41 | Wildtide | so, how is everyone on this fine evening? |
| 18:42.09 | Cairenn | doing well, yourself Wildtide? |
| 18:43.23 | Wildtide | not so bad. just gazing into screens full of obscure code that I can't remember writing and wondering why i did it that way. nothing unusual :) |
| 18:43.43 | Cairenn | lol |
| 18:44.40 | Baanano | lol were you drunk or high or something? |
| 18:45.14 | Wildtide | hehe, i wish i had a simple excuse like that |
| 18:46.13 | Baanano | then that means you've learned more since, doesn't it? |
| 18:47.49 | Wildtide | i'll keep telling myself that ;) |
| 18:48.09 | Wildtide | generally, i go back, rip it all out and redo it, everything stops working, and i think "oh yeah, that's why i did it that way" |
| 18:51.13 | Baanano | heh I do the same too often |
| 18:52.49 | Imhothar | whenever you look at code you wrote a year ago and aren't telling yourself "wtf was I thinking" then something's wrong |
| 18:53.47 | Wildtide | a year ago? this was yesterday :D |
| 18:53.53 | Cairenn | lol |
| 18:54.07 | Imhothar | then I want the same stuff you smoke |
| 18:54.12 | Wildtide | rofl |
| 18:54.24 | Cairenn | puff puff pass |
| 18:55.46 | Wildtide | oh well, time to make tonight's big decision. do i give myself RSI by cleansing on Silgen, or by writing code? |
| 18:57.35 | Baanano | silgen? |
| 18:57.51 | Wildtide | the Rise of the Phoenix boss |
| 18:58.51 | Baanano | didn't know, i never went past stonefield |
| 18:59.17 | Wildtide | funnily enough, that's where he is |
| 18:59.33 | seebs | I am doing okay, sort of. |
| 18:59.42 | seebs | The laws of physics are not serving me. |
| 19:00.21 | seebs | I need to arrange for a large amount of water to be hot, and the actual proper heater for this is not yet available to me. Hilarious hijinx ensue. |
| 19:00.46 | seebs | Also, for the record, this was not the best time for a cloudy day followed by a cold day with rain. Last week would have been fine for that. |
| 19:01.12 | Wildtide | tries to guess what Seebs is doing |
| 19:01.22 | Wildtide | it sounds a bit more hi-tech then running a bath? |
| 19:01.26 | seebs | Swimming pool in back yard. |
| 19:01.32 | Wildtide | ohh, nice :) |
| 19:01.37 | seebs | Problem is, the pool heater is not yet available. |
| 19:02.00 | seebs | And until we have water warm enough for people to relax in, the actual problem is not solved. The actual problem being that my spouse needs aquatherapy for joint problems. |
| 19:02.15 | Wildtide | ah, i see |
| 19:02.18 | seebs | So basically, until I can keep that water reasonably warm, my spouse cannot sleep for longer than ibuprofen lasts. :( |
| 19:02.26 | Wildtide | ugh, not good |
| 19:02.27 | Cairenn | =/ |
| 19:03.22 | seebs | And of course, today it's only 70ish and not-sunny, and tomorrow it's supposed to be 46-63 or so (degrees F). |
| 19:04.19 | seebs | For you crazy outlanders, we want the water to be 25, it's about 20 now, and the outside weather is going to be below 20 all of tomorrow. |
| 19:04.24 | Baanano | well, even if it were sunny probably a day wouldn't be enough to warm the water, any alternative? |
| 19:04.30 | seebs | (The pool is in a greenhouse, but that only really helps much on sunny days.) |
| 19:04.35 | seebs | Well, we are sorta cheating. |
| 19:04.58 | Imhothar | thanks for the outlanders description, we finally knwo what the hell you're talking about |
| 19:04.58 | seebs | We are mostly using hot water to fill it, but our regular water heater cannot run more than about 15% of the time and maintain reasonable heat. |
| 19:05.50 | seebs | The sun is actually pretty effective with the greenhouse, but it has to be on for that to work. |
| 19:06.10 | Cairenn | *chuckles* |
| 19:06.28 | Cairenn | "it [the sun] has to be 'on' for that to work" |
| 19:06.45 | seebs | Yeah. Through clouds, very little warming effect. Not none, but not very much. |
| 19:06.47 | Cairenn | Someone forgot to turn it back on this morning? |
| 19:07.08 | seebs | I'm actually cheating and putting a couple of very cheap black carpets in the pool. Well, one, and if it produces noticeable effects I'll add another. |
| 19:07.29 | Cairenn | black tarp over the top of the pool |
| 19:07.56 | seebs | Yeah. That's another of the steps, but that also has little effect without sunlight. |
| 19:08.15 | seebs | And we expect basically no sunlight until Monday. |
| 19:08.33 | Cairenn | still has visions of some great cosmic wife somewhere bitching at her hubby "You forgot to turn sol on this morning!" |
| 19:09.06 | seebs | Heh. |
| 19:09.48 | seebs | One of our plans is to possibly have a couple of active friends come over and splash around in the slightly-too-cold water for a while tomorrow. Because people generate ridiculous amounts of heat when they are a little chilled. |
| 19:11.55 | Cairenn | Or find a woman going through menopause ... |
| 19:12.26 | seebs | Huh. Went and looked it up. A pretty much idle human is about 100W or so of heat dissipation. Swimming is around 600W. And that's assuming you aren't doing the warm-blooded thing and burning extra calories to stay warm. |
| 19:13.14 | Imhothar | just be sure to only put at max 4 people in the pool |
| 19:13.26 | seebs | ? |
| 19:13.30 | Baanano | what's the volume of the pool? |
| 19:13.31 | Imhothar | 1 out of 5 pee in the pool |
| 19:13.33 | seebs | Heh. |
| 19:13.37 | Cairenn | lol |
| 19:14.02 | Imhothar | not joking |
| 19:14.12 | seebs | When filled (which it's not yet), about 5k gallons (~19k liters). |
| 19:14.22 | seebs | It's about half full right now. |
| 19:15.13 | Cairenn | Imhothar: no, not joking, but presumably the people Seebs'd be asking for assistance wouldn't be pigs |
| 19:15.35 | Imhothar | the more a pool "smell like a pool" the worse |
| 19:15.35 | seebs | Well, one of them sort of is, but also has OCD, so no worries there. |
| 19:15.54 | Cairenn | (which is such an unfair thing, since pigs themselves are actually very clean animals) |
| 19:16.04 | Imhothar | yeah you pig hater |
| 19:18.27 | Baanano | so you need to heat 10m3 of water from 20 to 25 º c ? |
| 19:18.38 | seebs | Roughly. |
| 19:18.55 | Cairenn | without the benefit of sol |
| 19:19.08 | Wildtide | cos someone forgot to turn it on |
| 19:19.14 | Cairenn | correct |
| 19:19.18 | seebs | I can add about 175L of water at ~48 degrees every hour or so. |
| 19:19.41 | seebs | I can also add as much water as I want that's about 12 degrees, but this is not very helpful it turns out. |
| 19:20.05 | seebs | The temperature outside is still 28ish for now, but expected to drop sharply tonight and tomorrow, along with thunderstorms. |
| 19:20.23 | seebs | Anyway, I gotta go buy a replacement hose, one of ours broke. |
| 19:20.31 | Wildtide | it was a blisteringly hot 9 degrees here today :( |
| 19:20.47 | Cairenn | it's a lovely 26C here atm |
| 19:20.51 | Wildtide | ;P |
| 19:21.15 | Cairenn | LOVES summer |
| 19:21.54 | Baanano | 15C here, and it was 35ºC on thursday... |
| 19:22.13 | Cairenn | yeah, our temps have been jumping all over the place too |
| 19:22.37 | Cairenn | to the point that I keep forgetting that it's the *beginning* of summer and thinking that it's the *end* |
| 19:23.03 | Imhothar | 35? to hell with you |
| 19:24.40 | Baanano | anyway, apart from the water heater do you have any other tool available? being able to produce enough steam would work wonders |
| 19:29.09 | seebs | We have radiators in our house, but I can't think of a way to use them. Can't think of anything that could produce nearly enough heat to have significant effects. |
| 19:29.27 | seebs | I mean, we can make fire, but we can't make it in water, pretty much. |
| 19:29.41 | seebs | And the greenhouse is mostly wood and plastic, so no fires inside it. |
| 19:29.46 | Imhothar | well seebs, you need about 400MJ to heat that pool, so it's take 5 100W people sitting there for about 10 days to heat it from 20 to 25 |
| 19:29.58 | Imhothar | and that's assuming the water doesn't cool them out ;) |
| 19:30.09 | seebs | Sure, but we don't have to get all the heat from the people, just some. And they'd be way over 100W when actually moving around. |
| 19:30.40 | seebs | I am guessing we'll be able to get it into a usable range on Monday, when we'll have sun and roughly high enough temperatures. |
| 19:31.01 | seebs | And it can be a little low, 21-22 is okay, it's just that 25 would be better. |
| 19:31.49 | Imhothar | yeah, but considering the thermal capacity of water I'd assume the people die of hypthermia before that happens |
| 19:32.26 | seebs | People swim in 60-degree (~15 C) water for long periods of time without injury if they're reasonably healthy and not starving. |
| 19:32.46 | Imhothar | wait, you're goig to feed them? |
| 19:32.49 | seebs | 70ish (~21 C) is generally plenty fine for exercising, it's just uncomfortable. |
| 19:32.52 | Imhothar | well that changes the equation |
| 19:33.02 | seebs | Heh. |
| 19:33.31 | Baanano | my estimate was about 210MJ |
| 19:33.33 | seebs | Only reason I want to push extra hard to get it warmer is the primary purpose is to help someone who has joint problems, and thus reacts poorly to being cold. |
| 19:34.05 | Baanano | how many watts did you said somebody could produce by swimming? |
| 19:35.00 | Imhothar | so we didn't consider the energery the body is consuming, so that goes into the "feeding" part of the equation |
| 19:35.19 | seebs | Swimming is roughly (according to a site I found randomly) ~600W. |
| 19:35.31 | Imhothar | which makes me conclude that humans are horrible water haeters |
| 19:35.41 | Imhothar | *heaters |
| 19:35.42 | Baanano | but probably you don't want to feed them and then make them swim in cold water |
| 19:35.53 | seebs | And of course, none of that takes into account the body's heat-maintenance; if you're in water under about 80 degrees (~26 C) you will be making extra heat just to avoid cooling down too much. |
| 19:36.15 | seebs | In two feet of water, I am not so worried about people having a lot of trouble with cramps. :P |
| 19:37.24 | seebs | Sorta tempted to put an oil radiator space heater in the greenhouse just to generally increase available heat. Wouldn't heat the pool all that much, but would make the space warmer for people anyway. |
| 19:37.51 | Baanano | that would increase the cold sensation |
| 19:37.52 | Imhothar | or you just go out there and put that damn sol on already |
| 19:37.59 | seebs | Yeah, that was my other plan. |
| 19:38.52 | Wildtide | silly question, but why isn't a pool heater an option? it's gonna be really hard to heat that much water in situ |
| 19:38.55 | seebs | I mean, there's tons of stuff we could do -- we could boil water and add it, but the rate at which we can do that is pretty much too small to offer ANY relevance. |
| 19:39.06 | seebs | A pool heater isn't an option because you cannot go get one today. |
| 19:39.28 | seebs | You need a licensed contractor to set up a gas one, for one thing, and for another, they are not a category of item that you can just go buy off the shelf. |
| 19:39.46 | Imhothar | of course you can |
| 19:39.49 | Imhothar | if you're hulk |
| 19:39.58 | seebs | The goal here is absolute-soonest-possible use of pool. The actual proper pool heater and stuff are a week or two out. |
| 19:40.00 | Wildtide | ah, fair enough. home swimming pools aren't something we have a lot of experience with in the UK :) |
| 19:40.25 | seebs | Yeah, this is just one of those pools you can set up in your back yard, they're about $400-500 and you can buy them off the shelf at two stores around here. |
| 19:40.46 | Wildtide | ah, gotcha, so it's an above ground thing? |
| 19:40.48 | seebs | But the heaters are specialty items and local laws do not allow random non-specialists to hook up natural gas devices. |
| 19:40.50 | seebs | Yeah. |
| 19:40.58 | seebs | Just a big vinyl bag supported by a metal frame. |
| 19:41.20 | Wildtide | was googling stuff like: http://poolstore.co.uk/product/small-pool-accessories/intex-3kw-heater |
| 19:41.28 | seebs | Yeah. |
| 19:41.36 | seebs | See. That item? That is only legal in the UK. |
| 19:41.43 | seebs | They don't sell it here and it won't work with our power. |
| 19:41.52 | seebs | Also, electric heat costs ~3x as much as gas heat. |
| 19:42.04 | seebs | http://www.ruralking.com/intex-16-x-48-round-ultra-frame-swimming-pool.html <-- the pool is roughly like this one (picture's a little off). |
| 19:42.16 | Wildtide | aye, not that one specifically, but i thought it looked like the sort of thing you could just pick up from a store |
| 19:42.30 | seebs | Not that I've ever seen. |
| 19:42.56 | Wildtide | that's a nice looking pool |
| 19:43.30 | seebs | There's a contractor who's handling stuff like plumbers, gas lines, electrical, and so on, and he's looking into heater options and will get one set up "soonish". |
| 19:43.49 | seebs | But in the mean time, focusing on whatever will solve the problem well enough to work soonest. |
| 19:45.44 | Baanano | the maths on the "have people swim around" idea are that you'd need 4 actively swimming during 5 hours to increase temperature by 1ºc, so it seems futile |
| 19:46.10 | Baanano | in which state do you live? |
| 19:46.14 | seebs | Minnesota. :) |
| 19:46.33 | seebs | The intent of the greenhouse is to extend the swimming season from about 3 months to 6+, maybe as many as 9. |
| 19:47.29 | seebs | Anyway, thing is, while the swimmers couldn't solve the problem alone, some swimming, and some heated water, and a bit of this, that, and the other thing *together* might be enough to matter. It's not an all-or-nothing; any improvement helps. |
| 19:48.36 | Baanano | damn if you had lived near mexico, gas heaters are sold there in stores (though I don't know how easy or difficult is it for you to pass the border) |
| 19:49.05 | seebs | Well, it's totally possible that some store somewhere sells them, but they're still 100% useless to me without the contractor to do the gas install. |
| 19:49.12 | seebs | Which is many days out no matter what. |
| 19:49.40 | Wildtide | i imagine the cost of any sort of temporary heater would be prohibitive. they don't look cheap, and if it's going to be replaced in 1-2 weeks, not worth it |
| 19:49.42 | seebs | So the gas heater is a long-term thing only; it'll happen, but probably not in May. |
| 19:50.36 | Baanano | this one costs about 70 $ |
| 19:51.34 | seebs | I suppose in theory I could look into a propane-based heater of some sort. |
| 19:51.43 | Baanano | 800 gal/hour |
| 19:52.25 | seebs | Huh, that's a heck of a lot more than our house water heater can do. |
| 19:53.08 | seebs | Of course, it's hard to search for things I could actually use, since basically everything categorized as a "water heater" is a device for being hooked up to home plumbing. |
| 19:54.21 | Baanano | this one works on hosepipes, but anyway 3000 km is too much to go there to buy it |
| 20:00.47 | Baanano | why don't you go to a heated public pool? |
| 20:00.50 | seebs | Huh. $200 would get me a device which, powered by two separate 120V circuits, is an in-line heater for a whirlpool type thing. |
| 20:01.10 | seebs | Public pools are Very Problematic for my spouse. |
| 20:02.26 | seebs | The in-line heater thing is sort of tempting; we do have suitable stuff for setting that up. Not probably enough heat to be used in just one pass, though, and we couldn't use it out where there's an actual feedback loop. |
| 20:22.37 | Wildtide | on a different topic... in the last release of my addon, i add a tiny little library for storing textures (Library.Media). the basic idea being you register textures with it, and add tags to say what the texture is useful for (e.g. "bar" if it's a health/mana bar texture). That way, textures can be discovered by any addon and reused, and you can search for all textures with a certain tag if |
| 20:22.37 | Wildtide | allowing the user to select one. my question is - does something like that already exist, and if not, is it something we should look at creating properly as a shared library? (a Rift equivalent to LibSharedMedia) |
| 20:28.05 | Baanano | i think it doesn't exist, and seems to be a good idea |
| 20:28.12 | Baanano | you could add fonts too |
| 20:29.24 | seebs | Sun is out now, and I have a 100' (~30m) black hose lying in the sun producing a small amount of warm water every so often. |
| 20:29.26 | Wildtide | yep, i kept it to 'Media' rather than 'Texture' to allow for other things to be included. hadn't thought of fonts, i was thinking of sound if it gets added :) |
| 20:30.51 | Baanano | that's good news seebs, hope it helps you |
| 20:31.57 | Baanano | wildtide, it would be great if you coded that allowing use of not only media bundled with the library, but allowing other addons to register their own media to share |
| 20:32.17 | Wildtide | that's what it does do |
| 20:32.38 | Wildtide | the library has no media of it's own, but Gadgets registers every texture it provides |
| 20:33.34 | Wildtide | i might pull it out into a seperate library then, and tidy it up. would be good to get a lot of addons sharing their media |
| 20:33.55 | Baanano | and then i'd call Library.Media.GetTextures("bar") and get a list of { Gadgets |
| 20:34.34 | Baanano | { {"Gadgets", "Texture/blah.png"}, {"Gadgets", "Texture/blah2.png" } } |
| 20:34.37 | Imhothar | sounds like something to get my item button textures used |
| 20:35.46 | Baanano | seems useful, but we aren't known to use libraries provided by other authors :P |
| 20:36.05 | Wildtide | aye, that is true :) |