| 05:11.13 | *** join/#riftuidev fewyn (~fewyn@fewyn.net) |
| 05:11.14 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+v fewyn] by ChanServ |
| 07:12.26 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar (Miranda@host-188-174-132-65.customer.m-online.net) |
| 10:01.32 | *** join/#riftuidev Fisker (~ballmer@developersdevelopersdevelopers.dk) |
| 10:41.52 | *** join/#riftuidev Aurorus (~Aurorus@unaffiliated/aurorus) |
| 11:14.31 | *** join/#riftuidev Aurorus (~Aurorus@unaffiliated/aurorus) |
| 14:16.37 | *** join/#riftuidev dOxxx (~doxxx@CPE24ab81b78833-CM00137186b71a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 14:56.39 | *** join/#riftuidev Aurorus (~Aurorus@unaffiliated/aurorus) |
| 16:12.50 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar (Miranda@host-188-174-132-65.customer.m-online.net) |
| 19:25.53 | *** join/#riftuidev Mere (~Mere@buzzbee.plus.com) |
| 19:27.05 | Mere | hi |
| 19:27.32 | Mere | anyone happen to know if it's possible to use mutiple colours in a text field? |
| 19:30.15 | Imhothar | no it's not |
| 19:31.45 | Mere | hmm, that's annoying, was thinking of adjusting my spell config UI, into something that would have a string along the bottom, saying: ability, ability, special, unknown, to match what was typed into the field above |
| 19:31.50 | Mere | and be nice to colour code the text |
| 19:37.55 | seebs | Yeah, I really hope we eventually get formatted text. |
| 19:38.02 | seebs | There are a lot of things which are functionally impossible without it. |
| 19:38.21 | seebs | Formatted text, and word wrap in RiftTextfield, are two of my biggest desires from a "writing cool addons" perspective. |
| 19:39.03 | Mere | yeah, I'm just trying to think of nice ways to configure spells |
| 19:39.51 | Mere | one thought was to copy vuhdo, but it seems that people want more complexity in rift, IE multiple spells etc, in vuhdo, you had the choice of a spell, target, assist, menu or a macro name |
| 19:40.01 | Mere | sadly we have no api to the macro system |
| 19:40.59 | Mere | so people want to do a bit more with the config it seems, but making it simple to use is tricky |
| 19:41.58 | Mere | I know that lifebinder has some drag and drop stuff, to drag abilities onto boxes |
| 19:42.47 | Mere | but that sorta feels like it'd only go so far, as different specs have different spells, and you'd need to cache (and save) up all the abilities from each spec, so icons would make sense |
| 19:43.25 | Mere | either way it feels like it'd end up as a big bucket of custom ui widgets |
| 19:44.35 | Imhothar | can't you just store the ability type id and use that in Inspect.* calls? |
| 19:45.46 | Mere | Not sure you can access it if you're not in a spec with that ability isn't present for |
| 19:45.55 | Mere | however, perhaps you can.... |
| 19:46.00 | Mere | I'll have to have a play |
| 19:46.05 | Imhothar | just try it |
| 19:53.15 | Mere | hmm, that does work |
| 19:54.47 | Mere | I do wish there were more lookup functions available though |
| 19:54.58 | Mere | eg name->ability id |
| 20:03.42 | Imhothar | well, optimally the ability name shouldn't concern you much as it's locale dependent. only when coming from player input |
| 20:04.06 | Imhothar | and then you got Inspect.Ability.List to find the right one |
| 20:04.57 | Mere | well you do if they're in the right spec |
| 20:05.43 | Imhothar | if they aren't just tell them |
| 20:06.52 | Mere | hmm, and for added fun it looks like each rank of an ability is a seperate id... |
| 20:07.00 | Imhothar | but once you got the id keep working with that ond don't care about the ability name any more |
| 20:07.41 | Imhothar | doesn't surprise me |
| 20:08.50 | seebs | I really, really, wish Trion had not done "ranks" for abilities. |
| 20:09.06 | seebs | They are a kludgy solution to a non-problem. |
| 20:09.10 | Mere | well when they started it was the done thing |
| 20:09.26 | seebs | CoH's solution (scale-with-level) is pretty clearly superior, MHO. |
| 20:09.34 | Mere | well it's what WoW does |
| 20:09.36 | seebs | All that crap about downranking and not-downranking goes away. |
| 20:09.46 | seebs | Did, I think? I thought they dropped ranks in WoW around Cata. |
| 20:09.46 | Mere | that's why wow changed |
| 20:10.19 | seebs | But yeah, WoW went through multiple attempts at "fixing" skill ranks before finally dropping them. I woulda thought it'd be easier to just not have them in the first place. |
| 20:10.19 | Mere | yes it dropped the ranks as being annoying to have to go retrain in the middle of questing |
| 20:10.36 | Mere | or having people forget to train them up |
| 20:10.47 | seebs | Also consider how much easier mentoring is to implement if you don't have ability ranks. :) |
| 20:10.48 | Mere | I used to have an addon in wotlk that looked for under-rank casts |
| 20:11.00 | seebs | You're level 15? Here's your abilities as they scale to level 15. Have a nice day. |
| 20:11.10 | Mere | indeed |
| 20:11.25 | Imhothar | In vanilla WoW we had a guild member who was running around with rank 1-3 spells at level 60 cause he didn't realize they must be trained |
| 20:11.33 | Mere | I think wow has 3-4 curve parts: 1-60, 61-70, 71-80 and 81-85 |
| 20:11.46 | Imhothar | he was wondering all the time why his damage was so low |
| 20:12.03 | Mere | yeah, plenty of people don't spot it, wow got better at telling you, and then dropped them |
| 20:12.29 | Mere | it's a major pain in rift to pickup a new spec, play with talents and then drop plat on training them up |
| 20:14.57 | Mere | but yeah, trying to put polish on an addon is hard, the ui widgets take quite a bit of work to make something nice |
| 20:15.13 | Imhothar | Sometimes I wish for WoW/Rift etc spells to work like in Magicka |
| 20:15.16 | Mere | and then finding that simple stuff like name->id doesn't exist without caching stuff |
| 20:15.31 | Mere | is that the one where you do fire, fire, ice, ice cast? |
| 20:15.36 | Imhothar | aye |
| 20:15.47 | Mere | or water, fire == steam ? :) |
| 20:15.53 | Mere | etc |
| 20:16.05 | Imhothar | yeh, it's an awesome system |
| 20:16.08 | Mere | it'd certainly be a different kind of mmo |
| 20:16.19 | Imhothar | instead of having 50 abilities you got just 8 buttons to amke up your own |
| 20:16.38 | Imhothar | it would certainly add more diversity |
| 20:16.42 | Mere | yeah, it's just scary how ppl just throw the abilities into macros |
| 20:17.07 | Mere | on my rogue I've no idea what to cast, I just spam the builder to 5 combo and hit finisher for the most part |
| 20:17.30 | Mere | IE all this diversity, but it's just too much to work out the "right" rotation |
| 20:17.45 | Imhothar | yeah, once you hit a crtain level you just play your rotation |
| 20:18.12 | Imhothar | and you got only that many place in your spell bars |
| 20:18.29 | Imhothar | *much |
| 20:19.02 | Imhothar | I hope they realize their Magicka MMO plans |
| 20:19.48 | Mere | hence the macros in most guids |
| 20:19.54 | Torhal|work | seebs: WoW dropped ranks in WoTLK. |
| 20:20.04 | Mere | ranks went in cata |
| 20:20.09 | Mere | wotlk had ranks |
| 20:20.09 | seebs | Huh. I thought they still had them when I was there, but I left partway through WotLK. |
| 20:20.11 | Torhal|work | o.O |
| 20:20.18 | seebs | Anyway, I wish Rift would drop them. |
| 20:20.25 | Torhal|work | I remember healers being pissed that they couldn't downrank in WoTLK. |
| 20:20.28 | seebs | The best reason for this is: Try proposing it and look at the forum outrage. |
| 20:20.28 | Mere | I only started playing wow in wotlk, and it had them |
| 20:20.32 | seebs | Oh, downranking was broken for ages. |
| 20:20.38 | Torhal|work | Oh |
| 20:20.41 | Torhal|work | Wait: I misremember |
| 20:20.43 | seebs | They kept making it harder and harder to downrank, but the ranks still *existed*. |
| 20:20.44 | Mere | you could down-rank but there was no point, I think the spell cost the same no matter the rank |
| 20:20.50 | Torhal|work | Blizzard made downranking NOT MATTER for heals |
| 20:20.54 | Torhal|work | Yah |
| 20:21.02 | Torhal|work | I forgot about that, so yeah - Cata is when |
| 20:21.09 | Torhal|work | Misremembering is teh awesomz |
| 20:21.15 | Mere | lol |
| 20:22.00 | Mere | but at the moment I'm just a bit stumped with having to make better config for my addon, I think the core works, but the current config is a tad confusing |
| 20:22.11 | Mere | and trying to make it neater needs better ui stuff |
| 20:22.25 | Mere | simpler, not neater |
| 20:22.28 | seebs | The forum outrage whenever you suggest it mostly consists of people who feel that it is a big deal that it "dumbs down" the game if you don't have to always go train abilities every level or two. |
| 20:23.01 | Imhothar | In the beginning the low ranks costed less mana, that was later changed I think in burning crusade or wotlk for all ranks to cost the same |
| 20:23.24 | Mere | I believe it was wotlk, from what ppl said bc still down ranked |
| 20:23.48 | Mere | but the whole ranking thing is annoying |
| 20:23.50 | Imhothar | and healers had macros to chose the rank depending on the target's missing health so it was a big mana saver |
| 20:23.55 | seebs | The progression was: |
| 20:24.20 | seebs | 1. Downranking was insanely overpowered because +heal or +heal/dmg was more than the base value of the spell. |
| 20:24.32 | seebs | In fact, I believe the cleric class quest at 60 *REQUIRED* downranking to succeed. |
| 20:24.40 | seebs | 2. They nerfed spellpower to ranks more than one below max. |
| 20:24.51 | seebs | 3. Somewhere in here was the healing gives +dmg fix. |
| 20:25.07 | seebs | 4. Then they changed spells to % of base mana so downranking wasn't as useful. |
| 20:25.14 | seebs | 5. Spellpower merge. |
| 20:25.28 | seebs | And I think somewhere in there they even added penalties to mana consumption for downranked spells. |
| 20:25.36 | Mere | well come panda land you don't even have to go learn spells |
| 20:25.40 | seebs | Eventually they just said "ranks are stupid", which is what they should have done in the first place. |
| 20:25.45 | Mere | when you hit the right level you just get given them |
| 20:26.03 | Mere | blizz don't want you to have to break away from the current quests etc to have to fly/run back to a trainer |
| 20:28.11 | Mere | but then blizz have ditched the talent trees, and make you pick mostly utilities where there is less right/wrong choice |
| 20:28.42 | Mere | so god knows how that plays out, but got to hope it'll make for easier balancing as you know that this spec will have the same ablities |
| 20:29.28 | seebs | Yeah. And I dislike a lot of that, but ability ranks are just... They make levelling a lot more discontinuous, because an ability can go from sucking to awesome back to sucking, and they create all sorts of possible ways something could go wrong. |
| 20:29.32 | Mere | nothing odder that finding out someone has put every point into 1 spec in wow, because that's what they thought you did (guess rift is the same, although the premades at least give guidance) |
| 20:29.46 | seebs | And, most importantly, they mean that you can't just compare two ability IDs to know whether two people are using the same power. |
| 20:29.47 | Imhothar | there's stil quite a way to go. oringially thye wanted the path of the titans in cata to specialzie in your talent tree more and dropped that |
| 20:30.14 | seebs | WotLK was where I learned the truth about MMO grouping: There are no bad groups. |
| 20:30.21 | seebs | There are good groups, and funny groups. |
| 20:30.26 | Mere | well they reliased the path of the titans wasn't adding anything, and turned it into another glyph |
| 20:30.40 | seebs | One of the funniest tanks I ever saw was a level 80 death knight who was dual-wielding in a 68/0/0 blood spec. |
| 20:30.59 | seebs | Even massively outgearing things, I couldn't even keep him up through trash pulls. |
| 20:31.14 | Mere | lol, you just weren't trying hard enough ;) |
| 20:32.20 | Mere | I have to say the most fun I had in wotlk was during the earlier cata, where you actually had to know what you were doing in HCs |
| 20:32.32 | Imhothar | wasn't frost the tank tree in wotlk? I know it's blood now bu I believe it was frost |
| 20:32.33 | Mere | everyone had to try |
| 20:32.42 | Mere | in wotlk you could tank in any dk spec |
| 20:33.05 | Imhothar | I miss the 60 times where people wouldn't start leaving the group after the first wipe in a random group |
| 20:33.06 | Mere | but you had to know how to tank in the spec of choice |
| 20:33.28 | Mere | well I've seen ppl do that in rift, omg we wiped on trash |
| 20:33.43 | seebs | In WotLK, the *intent* was that all three trees could either tank or DPS. |
| 20:34.16 | Mere | well that just caused them nightmares balancing |
| 20:34.19 | Imhothar | today the group dies once and everyone is outraged how incapable everyone else is |
| 20:34.24 | seebs | So I was tanking with a blood spec I got from a raider (and a couple slight tweaks to suit personal taste). Which, of course, meant that you could get kicked from groups for not being frost-specced because people who had never done it thought you were wrong. |
| 20:34.55 | seebs | I granted the need for consolidating tanking, but I wish they'd consolidated it in frost, which was more fun. ... of course, the issue is pretty firmly irrelevant to me. :) |
| 20:35.03 | Imhothar | sometimes I even miss the 4 hours BRD runs, these days it's all just 20 minutes stuff |
| 20:35.20 | seebs | Yeah, I sorta liked having the option of doing long epic stuff. :) |
| 20:36.18 | Mere | it's certainly interesting to see how blizz have recylced the older stuff |
| 20:36.31 | Imhothar | they simplified it alot |
| 20:37.05 | Mere | maraudon was one of those imense epic places |
| 20:37.12 | Mere | for lfg, they chopped it into 3 |
| 20:37.49 | Imhothar | hopefully the heroic versions (should they add more classics for 90) are going to be more challening like the real classics were. 5 man upper blackrock spire gives me the chills |
| 20:42.09 | Mere | well they're hitting scarlet monestray into 2 sections |
| 20:45.03 | Mere | I actually should try out the panda beta, I've got access |
| 20:45.24 | Imhothar | me too, but I won't. It spoils the surprise |
| 20:46.37 | Mere | indeed, and that's the fun part of games |
| 20:46.53 | Mere | I stopped playing wow cos I burnt out after 3 years |
| 20:47.08 | Mere | and I just failed at playing my lock for reasons I still don't understand |
| 20:48.10 | Mere | and now I'm in an odd place in rift, got one char leveling and one at 50, and just don't have a clue how to move my l50 forward (and the top end raids seem to get further out of reach) |
| 20:48.31 | Mere | in fact it seems like the days of vanilla wow, ppl stick in a guild to get them the gear to move onto the next guild which is in the next raid |
| 20:48.42 | Mere | (or that's how ppl described vanilla raiding |
| 20:50.05 | Imhothar | it's the same in all games, if you don't get on in a raud early it's nigh impossible to progress in raid instances |
| 20:50.50 | Mere | wow is easier to get there though |
| 20:51.15 | Imhothar | depends |
| 20:51.17 | Mere | a fresh l85 can run some dungeons get gear, and be capable of doing the looking for raid stuff |
| 20:51.30 | seebs | I'm told that it's pretty easy to get into the currentish raid content in Rift, at least largely by intent. |
| 20:51.41 | Imhothar | well lfr is a new thing |
| 20:51.42 | seebs | They make it easier to gear up to current so that newbies and alts aren't just hosed. |
| 20:51.48 | Mere | indeed |
| 20:52.00 | Mere | rift I've found harder to get to that point |
| 20:52.16 | Imhothar | an dit's a good way to get people to at least see the raids from the inside, but they are very simplified versions and won't get you the high-end items |
| 20:52.58 | Imhothar | you stil need a dedicated group for that, and finding one is the hard part of raiding in all the end-game content in most these games |
| 20:53.00 | seebs | Yeah, like Chronicles. Which I still think are pretty awesome. :) |
| 20:53.13 | seebs | Well, people are now pugging everything pre-HK, at least. |
| 20:54.02 | Imhothar | I never figured out what pug stands for |
| 20:54.12 | Mere | yeah, I have concluded that the thing I miss the most about wow isn't the game, it's the people |
| 20:54.15 | Mere | Pick Up Group |
| 20:57.26 | Imhothar | the Rift terminology for lfg I assume |
| 20:58.40 | Mere | probably not |
| 20:58.48 | Mere | pug was around before lfg |
| 20:59.05 | Imhothar | the concept of lfg is pretty old |
| 20:59.09 | Mere | indeed |
| 20:59.25 | Mere | I think pug is fairly old (and it gave blizz an excuse to give everyone a pug pet :) |
| 21:00.25 | Imhothar | I remember the first attempt at lfg in burning crusade which was an impressive failure |
| 21:00.39 | Imhothar | no one was using it |
| 21:00.50 | Mere | it was just a channel back then wasn't it? |
| 21:01.08 | Mere | it was only in wotlk that it became a tool to find ppl, and then went cross server |
| 21:01.14 | Imhothar | no ther was a dedicated window for searching and stuff but it didn't create groups or teleport you to the dungone |
| 21:01.32 | Mere | I have to say the cross server thign probably made it harder to find ppl to talk to on the local server |
| 21:02.05 | Imhothar | it was basically just a browser of who wants to go where |
| 21:02.29 | Mere | yeah, the whole teleport you to a dungeon was intersting |
| 21:02.37 | Mere | I remember having to run to places |
| 21:02.50 | Imhothar | yet another simpliifcation |
| 21:02.59 | Mere | they tried to bring it back in cata, you had to have been to the entrance to q for the instance |
| 21:03.07 | Mere | and then dropped it after a couple of months |
| 21:03.22 | Mere | well it was all about making it easier/simpler to logon and do something |
| 21:03.36 | Imhothar | in the old days... barefooted through deep snow |
| 21:04.19 | Mere | heh |
| 21:04.35 | Mere | was swamp or desert that I remember the most |
| 21:04.44 | Mere | zul'something and sunken temple |
| 21:05.09 | Mere | I actually memorized ST having leveled up and done the instance quite a bit on my healer |
| 21:05.13 | Imhothar | i hated the sunken temple |
| 21:05.36 | Mere | yeah quite a few ppl did |
| 21:05.56 | Imhothar | the new version is just hald the old instance, they removed the entire lower floor |
| 21:06.10 | Mere | I'm not sure they did |
| 21:06.24 | Mere | as they put a cover over the hole in the floor above |
| 21:06.24 | Imhothar | the stairs aren't there anymore |
| 21:06.41 | Imhothar | well by removing I mean made inaccessible |
| 21:07.29 | Mere | yeah, I do wonder if it's actually there, just blocked off |
| 21:15.28 | arton | there's a happy hap hap dappity doo |
| 21:19.32 | *** join/#riftuidev Aurorus (~Aurorus@unaffiliated/aurorus) |
| 21:26.42 | *** join/#riftuidev Aurorus_ (~Aurorus@49.178.5.242) |
| 21:26.43 | *** join/#riftuidev Aurorus_ (~Aurorus@unaffiliated/aurorus) |
| 23:07.32 | *** join/#riftuidev Aurorus (~Aurorus@unaffiliated/aurorus) |
| 23:09.00 | *** join/#riftuidev Cairenn (~Owner@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 23:09.01 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |