| 02:53.39 | *** join/#riftuidev purl (~purl@rikers.org) |
| 02:53.39 | *** topic/#riftuidev is http://pastebin.com for code snippets || PIL: http://www.lua.org/pil || Rift AddOn Policy: http://t.co/7xXd4LL || AddOn Wiki: wiki.riftui.com/ || RiftUI.com || rift.curse.com || SW:TOR Beta Keys! http://bit.ly/tDB2XO |
| 03:15.45 | ZorbaTHut | chinchilla, not much, honestly - we'll have hooks for things like hiding native UI windows, but in most cases the interaction with the existing UI will be minimal. |
| 03:22.23 | seebs | One of the things I'd love to see, Some Day, would be theorycrafting-oriented hooks, like a way to query the actual damage a spell will do with current buffs, etc. |
| 03:22.50 | seebs | Just because I remember in WoW that roughly 25% of my addon-related effort consisted of trying to find a currently-maintained addon which gave reasonable guesses at the damage my spells would do. |
| 03:32.00 | ZorbaTHut | I'll admit that would be neat, but that might take some really horrifying changes to our server architecture |
| 03:34.37 | seebs | It might. |
| 03:34.58 | seebs | Although it might be possible to expose enough calculations that people could fill in the bits like "which of my procs are up" on client side. |
| 03:35.33 | seebs | But just stuff like the actual spell/attack power coefficients used by different powers, scaling, the actual normalized value used for "weapon damage", stuff like that. |
| 03:35.43 | ZorbaTHut | Surprisingly, no - the details about how abilities work are not, as I understand it, available to the clients at all. :) |
| 03:36.05 | seebs | I'm just thinking, it might be easier to expose that than to expose the exact final calculated results. |
| 03:36.18 | seebs | It'd still be a noticeable change, to be sure. |
| 03:36.55 | ZorbaTHut | Keep in mind that Rift is incredibly compartamentalized. The client has very little information that it doesn't need to absolutely do its job. All the gameplay data is serverside-only - the client is little more than a pretty dumb terminal. |
| 03:37.05 | ZorbaTHut | ("pretty" as in "graphical", not as in "very") |
| 03:37.36 | ZorbaTHut | I had to change server code in order to expose groupmembers' planar charges to the client, for example :P |
| 03:37.38 | seebs | Yes. Which is in many ways a very cool thing. |
| 03:38.02 | seebs | I am pretty sure that design figures prominently in the rate of change that you guys seem to be able to manage without Breaking Everything. |
| 03:38.13 | seebs | The stories we get from CoH. |
| 03:38.14 | ZorbaTHut | It does make features like the one you're suggesting very, very difficult, however ;) |
| 03:39.00 | seebs | It may actually be easier than it would be in a less-compartmentalized design -- because while you have to do some fancy stuff, what stuff needs to be done is at least something you can figure out. |
| 03:39.14 | seebs | The CoH people have tons of code that no one knows how it works. |
| 03:39.26 | ZorbaTHut | True. I mean, it would absolutely be possible. But compared to still-missing chunks of API, it may be low-priority :) |
| 03:39.36 | seebs | So when suddenly parts of superhero bases start attacking players in their own bases, the answer is "wow, that's really neat, we have no idea what's happening." |
| 03:39.41 | ZorbaTHut | hah |
| 03:39.50 | seebs | No, really. That actually happened in a recent patchl. |
| 03:39.51 | seebs | patch. |
| 03:40.03 | seebs | They still don't know why, at some UI scales, some windows will just start crawling up the screen. |
| 03:40.13 | ZorbaTHut | Keep in mind that CoH has moved companies, and both NCSoft and Cryptic have problems with employee turnover |
| 03:40.24 | seebs | Yeah. That, and... The people who started it? INSANE. |
| 03:40.33 | ZorbaTHut | I'm friends with someone who *was* one of Cryptic's most senior engineers, and, well, he's not there anymore, and CoH isn't there either anyway |
| 03:40.37 | seebs | Hand-rolled custom database solution developed without reference to any existing database technology. |
| 03:40.58 | ZorbaTHut | I'm actually friends with the guy who coded that also, and they had good reasons for it :V It was basically NoSQL before NoSQL was a thing |
| 03:41.06 | seebs | Oh, interesting! |
| 03:41.27 | ZorbaTHut | keep in mind that "real" database solutions tend to fail really badly with MMOs, there's just too much writing going on |
| 03:42.00 | ZorbaTHut | and the schemas end up insanely complicated and there's just nowhere near as much database locality as you'd really want |
| 03:42.00 | seebs | Point. |
| 03:42.31 | seebs | I ran into something... trying to think what it was. |
| 03:42.43 | ZorbaTHut | The hand-rolled database absolutely could have been done better, but they didn't really have a good model for it. |
| 03:44.01 | seebs | So. A thing I noticed: If the mouse moves from one frame to another, it is *not* consistently the case that I get the MouseOut event before the MouseIn. |
| 03:44.32 | ZorbaTHut | (Although it's hard to find a bit of code that the coder doesn't think could have been done better, so) |
| 03:44.36 | seebs | Heh. |
| 03:44.59 | seebs | LootSorter is actually pretty much doing what I want now. |
| 03:45.02 | seebs | Oh, that was the thing! |
| 03:45.29 | ZorbaTHut | Excellent :) Run into any serious problems in the item API yet? |
| 03:45.30 | seebs | If I just call Command.Tooltip(x) on a bunch of item.type values, I start getting usage errors on some of them, but if I throttle it they go away. |
| 03:46.07 | seebs | Hmm. I have a really strange frame issue I found, which is that under SOME circumstances, calling pairs() on a frame object will yield the Event : {table} key/value twice. |
| 03:46.20 | seebs | Not reprodicible, and seems to mostly be "first time I try to iterate a specific frame". |
| 03:46.27 | ZorbaTHut | I've heard that before but I'm not *completely* sure I believe it. Can you try something for me? Write some debug output to find out which item type is causing the error. Then shut down and reopen the client and call just that one manually. |
| 03:46.39 | seebs | ooh, can do |
| 03:46.43 | seebs | Since I have a really nice reproducer |
| 03:46.43 | ZorbaTHut | Are you modifying the frame object while you iterate over it? |
| 03:47.05 | seebs | No, this is just using SlashPrint's /print command. |
| 03:47.23 | ZorbaTHut | huh, interesting. do you have a reproducible caase for that one? |
| 03:47.39 | seebs | Maybe. |
| 03:47.57 | seebs | Yes! |
| 03:48.06 | seebs | For that one. Grab lootsorter. Open the window (/ls). |
| 03:48.42 | seebs | Then use SlashPrint to /print LootSorter.window:GetBorder() |
| 03:48.50 | seebs | Interestingly, /dump doesn't seem to do this. |
| 03:49.18 | seebs | What's neat is, if I /print the same expression again, I don't get the behavior again. |
| 03:49.49 | seebs | Ah-hah! I have a lead on the Command.Tooltip() thing. |
| 03:49.58 | seebs | It's happening when I browse an item owned by another character. |
| 03:50.06 | ZorbaTHut | yep, that'd do it :) |
| 03:50.13 | seebs | But! |
| 03:50.20 | seebs | If I retry a frame or two later, it doesn't throw the error. |
| 03:50.41 | ZorbaTHut | remember how I said the client was very compartamentalized? it literally doesn't have the item data for any item it probably doesn't care about |
| 03:50.55 | seebs | Yeah. I am inclined to think, though, that this shouldn't yield a usage error. |
| 03:51.06 | ZorbaTHut | right now, if you try to make a tooltip for that item, it'll throw an error because it doesn't recognize the item, *but* it will then quietly go behind the scenes and request it from the server |
| 03:51.23 | seebs | Yup. |
| 03:51.49 | ZorbaTHut | it's a tough choice to make - either I need to turn a usage error into a non-usage error ("aha, found the item") or I need to turn a non-usage error into a usage error ("no, that item really doesn't exist") or I need to just silently fail in all failure cases |
| 03:51.54 | ZorbaTHut | I don't really like any of those fixes, to be honest |
| 03:52.06 | seebs | Hmm. |
| 03:52.15 | ZorbaTHut | I'm thinking of rigging up a "check if this item is loaded" function |
| 03:52.27 | seebs | I think it might make sense to distinguish between "that is definitely not a valid item" and "that item is unknown to me". |
| 03:52.36 | seebs | Or. Alternatively. |
| 03:52.55 | ZorbaTHut | unfortunately, I can't distinguish between those two until I've asked the server ;) I also don't want to set up anything that would allow for data mining |
| 03:53.02 | seebs | Declare that it is not a usage error to pass a string to Command.Tooltip(), even if it's not a valid item, it's just that the tooltip for a thing not recognized is no tooltip. |
| 03:53.13 | seebs | Okay, here's my thought. |
| 03:53.22 | seebs | Imagine that we add Inspect.Item.Tooltip(cookie) |
| 03:53.35 | seebs | which will try to return the information you'd have needed to draw that tooltip yourself. |
| 03:53.50 | seebs | The question is what it should yield for a cookie which it hasn't got info for. |
| 03:54.19 | ZorbaTHut | that's what inspect.item.detail() is for ;) |
| 03:54.21 | seebs | And I think it should do the same thing you do with Inspect.Item.Detail(cookie). |
| 03:54.30 | seebs | hmm |
| 03:54.39 | ZorbaTHut | in theory, it'll eventually have all the tooltip data in it (it mostly does now, there's a few holes) |
| 03:54.45 | seebs | oohhh |
| 03:54.53 | seebs | I hadn't even noticed that you DO have the flavor text in there. |
| 03:55.09 | seebs | BTW, side bug report: Flavor text has quotes around it even though it's not a quote. |
| 03:55.10 | ZorbaTHut | yep :) offhand, I know it's missing use/equip text, as well as item set info |
| 03:55.22 | ZorbaTHut | I *think* it's got everything else |
| 03:55.34 | ZorbaTHut | isn't that how the flavor text shows up ingame? I think it may just be hardcoded like that. |
| 03:55.48 | seebs | What I mean is. So far as I can tell, the flavor text in the database doesn't have quotes. |
| 03:55.59 | seebs | But the game tooltip adds quotes around it. Which is wrong. It's not a quote. |
| 03:56.44 | ZorbaTHut | oh, yeah, bring that up with our designers :) |
| 03:57.03 | seebs | Anyway, consider what happens if I call Inspect.Item.Detail('si01.005') when slot 5 is empty. I just don't get a return. Or maybe I get a nil. |
| 03:57.10 | seebs | I don't think slashprint can tell those apart. |
| 03:57.23 | ZorbaTHut | they're equivalent, actually |
| 03:57.38 | seebs | I think Command.Tooltip() should be comparable; if it can't find a tooltip, it draws nothing. |
| 03:57.44 | ZorbaTHut | but in that case, that's when you're intended to use Inspect.Item.List() to distinguish between "false" and an actual item. although it's possible detail should do the same thing with slots |
| 03:57.58 | seebs | Yeah. I figured out the .List() thing. |
| 03:58.05 | ZorbaTHut | I really don't like silent failure |
| 03:58.14 | seebs | Well, it doesn't have to be silent. |
| 03:58.22 | ZorbaTHut | with Inspect., presumably you care about the result and will crash if you try to access it incorrectly |
| 03:58.25 | seebs | Command.Tooltip() could return true if it thinks it found something, false otherwise. |
| 03:58.35 | ZorbaTHut | with Command.Tooltip(), there's no result that the addon writer is likely to look at |
| 03:58.41 | ZorbaTHut | so if something fails, it's 99% going to be ignored |
| 03:58.46 | seebs | Basically, distinguish between "error error abort" and "nope, got nothing". |
| 03:58.53 | ZorbaTHut | remember people don't look at error codes :V |
| 03:59.11 | seebs | True, but this way, all we do is wrap it in pcall and ignore the error code unconditionally. |
| 03:59.23 | ZorbaTHut | sure, and if you explicitly want to throw away the error, go for it |
| 03:59.41 | seebs | In an ideal world, "I haven't seen that item type yet" would be a different category of error than "what the hell, man, that's not even LIKE an item type". |
| 03:59.53 | ZorbaTHut | well, that I agree with, I just haven't been able to write up better error codes |
| 03:59.59 | seebs | Yeah. Hmm. |
| 04:00.04 | ZorbaTHut | I think the real difference is I think those both should be errors, just distinguishable ones |
| 04:00.08 | ZorbaTHut | and right now they're not distinguishable |
| 04:00.10 | seebs | That makes sense, too. |
| 04:00.14 | ZorbaTHut | but I do think they should both be errors :) |
| 04:00.17 | seebs | So, right now, the things I'm doing to the API. |
| 04:00.33 | seebs | I always change x.stack to (x.stack or 1), and x.rarity to (x.rarity or common). |
| 04:00.46 | seebs | I don't change x.stackMax, because the lack of a stackMax is a useful distinction. |
| 04:01.05 | seebs | But I found that when I didn't do the (or 1) unconditionally early on, I had to write DOZENS of them, because calculations on stacks are common. |
| 04:01.22 | seebs | This is especially true for things where stackMax exists, but there happens to be only one of something. |
| 04:01.30 | ZorbaTHut | hmm, .stack should show up if .stackMax does |
| 04:02.04 | seebs | Nope. Consider an Eternal Discordant Energy. |
| 04:02.15 | seebs | It has stackMax 50, because it's stackable, but it has no .stack, because it's only one. |
| 04:02.39 | seebs | I think it might make more sense for stack to be always present if stackMax is, but right now it's not. |
| 04:03.08 | seebs | The other thing I've been doing is stashing _slotspec and _charspec values in items so I can manipulate those later, but that's because I'm tracking cross-character inventory. |
| 04:03.19 | seebs | And doing stuff like letting you build a list with stacks combined. |
| 04:06.04 | seebs | And I still dislike that quest rewards don't show their requiredLevel, because this makes rune shopping Unnecessarily Hard. |
| 04:06.20 | seebs | I have, however, realized that I'm pretty sure I could provide those levels if I wanted to, at least for armor and weapons. |
| 04:06.49 | seebs | Because I can get the green/blue/purple armor values and DPS numbers by type and level, and it appears that this is a reliable indicator before raid content. |
| 04:07.20 | seebs | So if I find a green cleric shield with 307 armor, it is going to be level 48. |
| 04:08.04 | seebs | So I can in theory add that calculation-by-inference and then shove that into the tables of items I return. :) |
| 04:08.48 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, I think that should be shown - it's on my todo list to deal with |
| 04:09.01 | seebs | I wouldn't mind it not being shown if it weren't for the rune thing. |
| 04:11.58 | ZorbaTHut | it should really just be part of the default UI |
| 04:12.18 | seebs | Interestingly, this creates a sort of weird perverse incentive. |
| 04:12.36 | seebs | Which is that if requiredLevel is really the same thing as item level, a reward is a *better* quest reward if it has a lower requiredLevel. |
| 04:12.48 | seebs | But that can make it less valuable because it takes weaker runes. |
| 04:13.53 | seebs | Apart from that, the only thing I really see as "missing" in the item API is a way to use an item from a macro. Not sure how that could be sanely or safely implemented. |
| 04:14.03 | seebs | Everything else is pretty awesome. |
| 04:14.13 | ZorbaTHut | There's /use, I think, thouigh it only works for certain kinds of "use" |
| 04:18.23 | seebs | I also can't find a better definition of "artifact" than "category includes collectible, stackMax == 99" |
| 04:19.00 | seebs | ... BTW, either my vision has changed radically in the last week or so, or they redid a bunch of spell graphics and stuff recently. |
| 04:19.12 | seebs | Pretty sure bard motifs looked different before the patch. |
| 04:19.17 | ZorbaTHut | they've been redoing them pretty constantly :) |
| 04:19.28 | seebs | It's sorta cool. |
| 04:19.43 | seebs | I remember being SO hyped when Burning Crusade came out because of spell upgrades. |
| 04:20.04 | seebs | The new motif graphics really work for me. A LOT easier to see what I'm doing. |
| 04:21.12 | seebs | I sort of get the impression that there's an at least semi-official policy allowing people to work on improving stuff they personally want to work on at least some of the time. |
| 04:21.45 | seebs | Because some of this stuff really doesn't feel like the sort of thing one gets management buy-in on specifically. |
| 04:22.25 | ZorbaTHut | I think we've been tweaking spell graphics since, like, 1.3 |
| 04:22.32 | seebs | And mob graphics. |
| 04:22.42 | ZorbaTHut | yep. lots of tweaks :) |
| 04:22.43 | seebs | I've seen at least one set of mobs get an overhaul (some of the constructs). |
| 04:23.00 | seebs | I found an awesome edge case bug. |
| 04:23.07 | ZorbaTHut | our management is actually pretty much fine with us fixing things once in a while |
| 04:23.16 | seebs | Yeah, which is a nice thing. |
| 04:23.23 | ZorbaTHut | but yes, there's also a good amount of off-the-books "hey look I made a thing" |
| 04:23.36 | seebs | So, take something like, say, the defiant veteran reward chest piece, which has a brightly colored skirt. |
| 04:23.38 | ZorbaTHut | one of my coworkers has two very neat features half-finished that may or may not make it to a future version ;) |
| 04:23.40 | seebs | Now dye it grey. |
| 04:23.45 | seebs | Now go into stealth. |
| 04:23.56 | seebs | And observe that the original colors are used for the edges-of-stealthed-character graphics. |
| 04:24.30 | ZorbaTHut | hah, nice :D |
| 04:24.40 | ZorbaTHut | yeah I bet we just ignore dye for that render mode |
| 04:24.44 | seebs | Two or three of the biggest feature/performance enhancements in $dayjob's product were basically "some guy wanted to do it". |
| 04:25.22 | ZorbaTHut | I may have one of those in the works as well ;) |
| 04:25.32 | seebs | Cool! |
| 04:25.43 | seebs | Yeah, that kind of thing is great for morale and for product quality. |
| 04:26.12 | seebs | You can do a fair bit from the top down, but every so often you gotta let the devs Do Their Thing. |
| 04:27.05 | seebs | Graphics feature I want most -- and I recognize that it's almost certainly impossible -- is CoH-style power customization. |
| 04:27.24 | seebs | Would be SO AMAZINGLY COOL. But also probably more development effort than, say, any one content patch so far. |
| 04:27.50 | ZorbaTHut | I'll admit that would be pretty dang cool :D |
| 04:28.15 | seebs | I really came to admire the impact of that when I was on a team with three Fire Blast characters in CoH. |
| 04:28.22 | seebs | And we had NO trouble telling whose fire effects were whose. |
| 04:28.31 | seebs | Because we had one neon green, one dark purple, and one orange. |
| 04:29.03 | seebs | ... admittedly, with three fire/ corruptors, it wasn't as though anyone had to pay attention to anything. |
| 04:31.07 | ZorbaTHut | I don't know how tough it would be, tinting spell effects isn't *too* bad |
| 04:32.03 | seebs | Tinting them, not too bad. Defining a way to store the tinting information... maybe bad. |
| 04:32.17 | ZorbaTHut | eh, not too bad. the interface for changing those things, that'd be a problem |
| 04:32.22 | seebs | I can't think of a UI for it. You don't have the CoH thing where there's exactly 18 powers that you can customize anyway, and they're fixed for the life of the character. |
| 04:32.34 | seebs | And I think it'd be preferable for it to be per-role, too. :) |
| 04:32.43 | ZorbaTHut | probably attach it to the soul tree dialog one way or another |
| 04:34.08 | ZorbaTHut | what kind of customization does CoH allow? ability colors, obviously, but what else? |
| 04:34.24 | seebs | A few powers have multiple animations you can choose from. |
| 04:34.50 | seebs | Say, a lot of fire armor lets you choose between effects labeled "fire" and "flames", which basically has to do with how much you see individual shapes and how much it's just an aura, I think. |
| 04:35.09 | seebs | And a lot of defensive powers that are basically fire-and-forget ("toggles") have an "FX only in PvP" option. |
| 04:35.11 | ZorbaTHut | huh, neat idea |
| 04:35.24 | seebs | Apart from that, it's mostly just primary-and-secondary color, same as for costume bits. |
| 04:35.39 | seebs | One of the things I dislike is that they restrict color choices for some power types; ice has to be pastels, for instance. |
| 04:35.52 | seebs | And you can watch the power animate while you mess with settings. |
| 04:36.24 | seebs | But say, for stealth powers, there's often a choice between "remove character model when this is up" and "just draw stuff around character model". |
| 04:36.47 | seebs | There is obviously a temptation to convert stealth to not hide your character model, and instead surround you in neon pink clouds. |
| 04:37.00 | seebs | ... And yes, I've done that in CoH, for Captain Chroma, the world's Most Visible Superhero. |
| 04:37.25 | seebs | About 90% of the benefit comes just from letting people pick the primary and secondary colors, though. |
| 04:37.46 | seebs | So you can do stuff like "set all my fire powers to be neon green". |
| 04:37.55 | ZorbaTHut | I still really like DCUO's costume system |
| 04:38.24 | ZorbaTHut | it's funny, costume systems are a zero priority for me, I will never buy a game based on whether or not it has one |
| 04:38.30 | ZorbaTHut | but if it *does* have one I'll happily spend a few hours playing dressup |
| 04:38.37 | seebs | Yeah. |
| 04:38.50 | seebs | I thought it was a pointless feature until I got CoH, now I think it's a Big Deal. |
| 04:38.55 | seebs | One of my favorite things in rift now. |
| 04:39.23 | seebs | Seriously, even if everything else I dislike about Blizz/WoW went away, their lack of (or, soonish, half-baked) wardrobe system would still keep me away now. :) |
| 04:39.37 | ZorbaTHut | it's even to the point where I bought one of the rare boe costume pieces on the AH, it looks awesome on my character :D (dyed properly of course) |
| 04:39.56 | seebs | Yeah. I just love that I can upgrade without looking awful. |
| 04:40.12 | seebs | I stopped playing one of my characters for several months about halfway through Hellfire Penninsula. |
| 04:40.28 | seebs | I had to choose between a horrible set of mismatched puke-green gear, and not being able to kill stuff. |
| 04:40.50 | seebs | ... Come to think of it, I'm not sure I *ever* got back to him. |
| 04:41.59 | seebs | The other neat side-effect is that even if a piece of gear is in no way an upgrade, I still at least preview it in case it looks awesome. |
| 04:42.17 | seebs | Some day, weapon wardrobe. |
| 04:54.53 | seebs | ahh, forums. |
| 04:55.22 | seebs | It turns out that RIFT is going to fail because Akylios is too hard. And that means that, since 99% of players are 10/11 HK but can't clear Akylios, they'll all quit. |
| 04:55.42 | seebs | Time to go cook dinner. |
| 05:07.56 | *** join/#riftuidev Kreiri (~Miranda@109.227.122.71) |
| 05:24.54 | *** topic/#riftuidev by Cairenn -> http://pastebin.com for code snippets || PIL: http://www.lua.org/pil || Rift AddOn Policy: http://t.co/7xXd4LL || AddOn Wiki: wiki.riftui.com/ || RiftUI.com || rift.curse.com || |
| 05:39.24 | Aurorus | I would hate to be the employee tasked with reading the forums and interpreting what people post into adult speak |
| 05:39.44 | Aurorus | That would have to be a more degrading job than being a janitor at a fast food restaurant |
| 05:40.36 | Aurorus | You would leave after a day of people screaming at each other wondering what you did wrong in a past life, I reckon. The best I can handle on the Rift or SWTOR forums is about 30 - 45 mins |
| 05:40.38 | Cairenn | Meh, some days are not too bad ^_- |
| 05:41.11 | Aurorus | This is what it feels like: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/online_gaming |
| 05:42.04 | seebs | heh |
| 05:42.31 | seebs | I actually think the rift people do a pretty good job of the forums. A lot more freedom than some allow. |
| 05:43.09 | Aurorus | I reckon there's a lot of freedom - whether that is a good or bad thing is a value judgement, but there is certainly more than e.g. LotRO or WoW |
| 05:43.19 | seebs | I think in the longer term, it improves tone. |
| 05:43.42 | seebs | A big part of what makes people really act up is feeling like they aren't even being heard. |
| 05:44.08 | Aurorus | That's true, although with some ideas (can we have a monk class??) they are better off quiet. :/ |
| 05:44.42 | seebs | Well, yeah, but... People can deal with "that's an interesting idea, but we aren't going to do it" a lot better than they can deal with having their posts deleted. |
| 05:45.16 | Aurorus | I was more thinking along the lines of their next few posts just timing out until they get tired of pressing [Back] … [Submit] |
| 05:45.30 | seebs | I am fine with people proposing stupid stuff, because it isn't going to actually GO anywhere. So no harm done. |
| 05:45.47 | seebs | Wouldn't mind seeing the "answer is no" guy muzzled, though. |
| 05:45.53 | Aurorus | That's the thing though - if they propose stupid stuff and nothing happens, they feel like they aren't heard |
| 05:46.04 | seebs | Not nearly as much as if they can't even get the posts up. |
| 05:46.20 | Aurorus | So if there was a dev just going along doing a standard "Thank you but no." that would cause an outcry, but a justified one |
| 05:46.32 | Aurorus | That *could* be better than people being frustrated and taking it out on each other |
| 05:46.34 | seebs | Not necessarily. |
| 05:47.01 | seebs | I am deeply devoted to the belief that the game would be better if Warlord turned into an actual support soul instead of yet another tanking soul. |
| 05:47.26 | Aurorus | Have you seen the Clerics forum thread where some guys called the Cleric class design lead out ? |
| 05:47.27 | seebs | But having the warrior dev say "we're not doing that" doesn't make me feel like I haven't been heard -- that's more response than I ever got from, say, Blizzard. |
| 05:47.40 | seebs | Yeah. I've seen those for cleric and rogue both. |
| 05:47.52 | seebs | And those people... I mean, there's always some people who will be unhappy unless they win. |
| 05:48.20 | seebs | But here, at least, there's a very noticeable trend of real responses from devs, and even when they don't respond to a specific post, they really do show awareness of issues. |
| 05:48.27 | Aurorus | yeah, the old Roman legend saying "Please all, please none." |
| 05:49.21 | seebs | As an example, I think it was pretty clear that riftstalkers were WAY underperforming back in 1.4, so they got a ton of tweaks in 1.5, and deflect added, and by 1.6 they were at least decent. |
| 05:49.50 | Aurorus | one thing that I'm not happy with Rift is the balance swings that happen |
| 05:49.50 | seebs | Although we still have some serious rogue kookery. |
| 05:49.53 | Aurorus | They are way to drastic |
| 05:49.55 | Aurorus | too* |
| 05:50.18 | seebs | I think that'll improve with time as the devs get a better feel for how things are interacting. |
| 05:52.23 | seebs | They certainly didn't go out of their way to make the game easy to balance for all possible combos. |
| 05:52.27 | ZorbaTHut | fun fact: a surprising amount of balance is tied up with what the community has figured out |
| 05:52.34 | seebs | Yeah. |
| 05:52.56 | ZorbaTHut | just look at SC2 faction win rate swings for an example of this - Z/V/T strength varies widely, even when no patch occured |
| 05:52.58 | seebs | That's a big part of the FotM problem -- FotM would occur even in a game with consistent and flawless balance. |
| 05:53.26 | seebs | Heck, rock/paper/scissors is vulnerable to FotM. |
| 05:54.05 | seebs | Start a bunch of people playing RPS, introduce a few people who think rock is "awesome". |
| 05:54.27 | seebs | They'll play rock. This means that rock will be statistically overrepresented. Now, suddenly, paper is *actually better* than the other choices. |
| 05:54.48 | seebs | Once everyone realizes that and switches... |
| 05:57.11 | seebs | Add in Dunning-Kruger and you have a recipe for endless whining. |
| 05:59.58 | Aurorus | that is quite true |
| 06:00.10 | seebs | I actually have an idea for testing this. |
| 06:00.16 | Aurorus | how so? |
| 06:00.20 | seebs | I just need a couple hundred million dollars and some people who can keep secrets. |
| 06:00.35 | seebs | The plan is to build an MMO which, *secretly*, embeds bots in PvP. The bots lose. |
| 06:00.50 | seebs | The goal is to tune things so that a player of average skill wins about 70% of all "PvP" fights. |
| 06:01.10 | seebs | I'd guess the game would be widely regarded as by FAR the most fairly balanced MMO out there. |
| 06:01.28 | Aurorus | this is interesting... |
| 06:02.27 | seebs | I mean, that's the fundamental problem. As long as the average player wins 50% of the time, but the average expectation of victory is hugher than 50%, the game's balance MUST be broken. |
| 06:02.33 | seebs | Because otherwise I'd win as much as I expect to. |
| 06:04.32 | Aurorus | clever |
| 06:04.36 | Aurorus | very clever |
| 06:04.54 | Aurorus | anyway - I must away…end of "srs bsns" hours |
| 06:04.59 | seebs | Have fun! |
| 06:42.19 | seebs | woah, I just noticed: there are two layers of clouds in the sky over meridian, and they move separately. |
| 06:43.37 | *** join/#riftuidev kreiri (~Kreiri@193.108.249.252) |
| 07:25.11 | *** join/#riftuidev kreiri (~Kreiri@193.108.249.252) |
| 08:03.35 | ZorbaTHut | seebs, the big issue would be making a humanlike AI |
| 08:03.51 | ZorbaTHut | that's tough enough for FPSes, it's going to be really nasty for an MMO |
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| 08:43.22 | starlon | mmmm chocolate |
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| 11:28.05 | kreiri | http://galyonkin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2011-11-16-231.jpg |
| 11:34.24 | starlon | can't sleep |
| 11:34.34 | starlon | :( :( :( |
| 11:42.15 | *** join/#riftuidev Snstr (~darki@p54B36411.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:42.22 | lXl | :( |
| 11:49.49 | Snstr | hey guys |
| 11:51.28 | lXl | Hi |
| 11:53.23 | Snstr | is there any good editor you know with a syntax check for LUA? |
| 11:53.35 | lXl | E? |
| 11:53.39 | kreiri | Intellij Idea |
| 11:53.42 | Snstr | I keep forgetting thens etc nad its just annoying to reloadui 5 times :P |
| 11:53.52 | lXl | http://www.e-texteditor.com/ |
| 11:54.01 | Snstr | thanks ill take a look :) |
| 11:54.05 | kreiri | with Lua plugin |
| 11:54.13 | lXl | It's what I coded with for WoW |
| 12:16.09 | starlon | I just use the lua compiler (luac) to check syntax. |
| 12:16.23 | starlon | but then again I program from a terminal |
| 14:03.45 | Snstr | if value == ("this" or "that") then .... end |
| 14:03.47 | Snstr | does that work? |
| 14:03.50 | Snstr | I cant test it atm |
| 14:05.03 | Snstr | from what I could tell from here is that it only seems to work on "this", for that it doesnt seem to trigger |
| 14:05.11 | Snstr | but I can only tell for sure later thats why im asking now :P |
| 14:05.40 | lXl | That should work.. |
| 14:12.38 | ZorbaTHut | always kinda nice when you discover, through pure chance, that you already have some of the parts for your next computer upgrade |
| 14:21.24 | lXl | I liked realizing I had enough parts left over to build a crappy server. |
| 14:21.34 | lXl | Core 2 duo with 4GB ram.. "enough" |
| 14:24.52 | *** join/#riftuidev kreiri (~Kreiri@193.108.249.252) |
| 14:43.36 | Torhal | lXl: BAD! No! |
| 14:43.56 | Torhal | Snstr: if value == "this" or value == "that" then do_stuff() end |
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| 14:53.49 | lXl | What? :( |
| 14:54.06 | lXl | I could have sworn you could do it that way |
| 14:54.50 | kreiri | IIRC (a or b) returns a if it's not nil or false and b otherwise |
| 14:56.57 | kreiri | also, snstr: http://www.lua.org/demo.html |
| 14:59.57 | lXl | So it will only check against a in (a or b) basically? |
| 15:00.31 | lXl | It seems to work though |
| 15:00.46 | lXl | Oh maybe not |
| 15:01.28 | kreiri | http://pastebin.com/vSW4jBSj - test this code on lua demo page |
| 15:27.59 | starlon | lua> Torhal() |
| 15:27.59 | lua_bot | starlon: luabot:1: attempt to call global 'Torhal' (a nil value) |
| 15:29.11 | starlon | I'm beyond sleepeh. |
| 15:30.50 | Snstr | lol nice I didnt know that kreiri :D |
| 15:30.53 | Snstr | aaand |
| 15:31.07 | Snstr | throws paper balls at lXl |
| 15:31.24 | lXl | I don't want any balls |
| 15:31.47 | Snstr | u can hoard them and then throw them at starlon |
| 15:32.12 | lXl | I don't think I can |
| 15:32.26 | Snstr | damn the conditions with value = this and value = that sucks -.- |
| 15:32.56 | Snstr | but it explains alot |
| 15:32.57 | Snstr | :D |
| 15:33.15 | Snstr | I was wondering why my 2nd values where disappearing before I read torhals answer |
| 15:33.35 | Snstr | (but it looked right!) |
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| 16:23.58 | Torhal|work | roofies starlon. |
| 16:41.20 | *** join/#riftuidev Kreiri (~Miranda@109.227.122.71) |
| 17:04.38 | Snstr | ye what a surprise, now with the reworked conditions everything works :P |
| 17:19.26 | Torhal|work | :D |
| 17:19.26 | *** join/#riftuidev Acenth (~Acenth@67.58.77.206) |
| 17:19.31 | Torhal|work | Meugh. |
| 18:49.33 | Kreiri | I wish chat log reported ont only money recieved from auctions, but also from which auctions it was recieved. I just sold some artifact for 23p and I don't rmember which. |
| 18:50.52 | *** join/#riftuidev chinchi11a (~eroush@CPE-24-209-187-161.wi.res.rr.com) |
| 18:55.46 | chinchi11a | so i'm trying to make a thin border around a texture and the interface-resizing is making it turn out quite ugly :[ |
| 18:56.07 | chinchi11a | it tends to randomly chop off a pixel of my border on a side / top / bottom. |
| 18:59.49 | chinchi11a | if anyone has a good solution to making a border that scales nicely, lemme know :o |
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| 19:03.16 | Dramiel1 | that is done by scaling imo |
| 19:04.09 | Dramiel1 | I don't know if there is some "global ui scale" but if it is then try turning it off.. I don't have problem with this and I use 1px borders a lot |
| 19:05.21 | chinchi11a | i guess it makes sense.. since the scaling is taking place for each frame before theyre rendered.. some get rounded up/down by a pixel |
| 19:12.04 | chinchi11a | i wish i could like, blit a texture onto its parent frame and have it scale as one quad :[ |
| 19:13.40 | seebs | Insight strikes! Instead of highlighting text, I can simply pick a different color for the one I want highlighted. |
| 19:13.56 | seebs | I will totally get around to this. |
| 19:16.23 | chinchi11a | lol, trion categorizes Eternal Puresource as "crafting material gem" :I |
| 19:17.15 | Kreiri | well, bugged army of the wind invasion resulted in my alchemist getting 12 eternal dusts from puresourced essences |
| 19:17.33 | chinchi11a | xD |
| 19:17.35 | seebs | Ooh, interesting. |
| 19:17.40 | seebs | Heh. |
| 19:17.57 | seebs | We had one of those, not sure it was that one specifically, but I got something over 3k planarite just hanging out at the chancel of labors. |
| 19:18.30 | Kreiri | it spawned all kinds of rifts but air |
| 19:18.38 | chinchi11a | speaking of getting things while hanging out.. my players-killed-in-sanctum goes slowly up as I play this game |
| 19:18.40 | Kreiri | and we had to shut down 10 air rifts |
| 19:18.40 | chinchi11a | and i can't think of why. |
| 19:19.07 | chinchi11a | rofl sounds like an awesome invasion |
| 19:19.16 | seebs | Ohh! |
| 19:19.19 | chinchi11a | those planar folks are getting more clever |
| 19:19.20 | seebs | Yeah, that was what we had. |
| 19:19.39 | seebs | Was like an hour and a half before we got the extra rifts. We ended up with some guy spawning a PvP rift which was one of the ten air rifts that got closed. |
| 19:19.46 | chinchi11a | xD |
| 19:21.04 | Kreiri | we had guardians and me defending the chancel and other defiants chasing the rifts all over IPP |
| 19:21.40 | Kreiri | death, fire, life, water, death, fire, water, death, ..., air... |
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| 20:42.36 | chinchi11a | oof. I'm not looking forward to reproducing these mouseover item descriptions. |
| 20:43.38 | seebs | What, the standard tooltip stuff? |
| 20:43.48 | seebs | ... hah! I just found a thread complaining about Zorba. |
| 20:44.05 | seebs | It turns out that rogues should quit the game because Trion is wasting so much time answering questions about the addon API. :P |
| 20:44.12 | chinchi11a | yeah, the bind-type, item level, etc etc |
| 20:44.36 | Kraps_w | rogue tanks are OP /flex |
| 20:45.14 | chinchi11a | there's about a billion fields, with varying colors, font-sizes, a specific order.. yadda yadda |
| 20:45.27 | chinchi11a | a billion may or may not have been an overestimation. |
| 20:46.30 | seebs | Heh. |
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| 22:38.05 | seebs | "Never believe the attribution of a quotation you find on the Internet." |
| 22:38.05 | seebs | (George Bernard Shaw) |
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