| 00:08.20 | *** join/#riftuidev Lyme (~Jason@S010600265ac734e1.du.shawcable.net) |
| 00:31.28 | Sling | [09:41:07] <mckenziemc> moo |
| 00:31.29 | Sling | [01:39:44] <hp94> Quick, hp94 joined! Everyone be completely silent! |
| 00:31.37 | Sling | that was the last line before you joined :p |
| 00:31.58 | hp94 | why does mckenziemc keep typing 'moo'? |
| 00:42.46 | seebs | Probably because "ping" and "anyone around?" are pretty well played out. |
| 00:45.17 | nohh | MOOOOOOOO |
| 00:51.51 | hp94 | NOOOOOOOO |
| 01:17.56 | *** join/#riftuidev mckenziemc (~Mark@dialup-4.246.252.164.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net) |
| 01:22.53 | *** join/#riftuidev hp94 (4495f601@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.149.246.1) |
| 02:43.24 | hp94 | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:47.17 | Cairenn | hi hp94 |
| 02:47.28 | hp94 | Hey Cairenn |
| 02:47.31 | hp94 | How have you been? |
| 02:47.38 | Cairenn | Doing well, you? |
| 03:01.42 | hp94 | Sad, but glad you're doing well. |
| 03:05.46 | Cairenn | Why sad? |
| 03:06.23 | Cairenn | Errr, sorry, not any of my business |
| 03:09.28 | hp94 | Well, I guess it would be wrong to say 'sad' and then not answer why. |
| 03:09.39 | hp94 | Umm... It's just a money thing. |
| 03:09.43 | hp94 | Family/Money. |
| 03:10.00 | Cairenn | Never fun. |
| 03:12.18 | Cairenn | I hope everything turns out okay for you. |
| 03:20.23 | seebs | Ahh, money. |
| 03:20.43 | seebs | In theory I ought to be fairly well off, in practice I'm perpetually broke enough to be a film noir detective. |
| 03:43.06 | nohh | film noir detectives always have damsels in distress coming in and out of their offices - you should be so lucky |
| 03:43.50 | seebs | Well, that's basically the problem. |
| 03:43.54 | seebs | They're always broke. |
| 03:44.51 | nohh | well private detective isn't really a field you go into for the money |
| 03:45.19 | Aurorus | or the fame |
| 03:45.26 | nohh | could just be a police detective and enjoy the benefits and pension |
| 03:45.28 | Aurorus | or the women (unless you're doing spouse exposal) |
| 03:45.40 | nohh | film noir detectives always got the women |
| 03:45.54 | nohh | that's really the only benefit, that and flexible hours |
| 03:45.58 | Aurorus | how much did they pay said women? |
| 03:46.06 | nohh | the women paid them |
| 03:46.13 | Aurorus | ohh, I see |
| 03:46.19 | *** join/#riftuidev Kanonball_ (~Kanonball@207.6.210.171) |
| 03:46.20 | Aurorus | that kind of a film noir detective :P |
| 03:46.40 | nohh | yeah.. like sam spade |
| 03:49.21 | seebs | Sam Spade is famous in copyright cases, as I recall. |
| 03:49.59 | seebs | I believe he was the example case that concluded that a sufficiently generic character whose apparent uniqueness is really just a reflection of the setting is not protected by copyright as such. |
| 03:53.06 | nohh | idk, doesnt ring a bell |
| 03:53.21 | lXl | I wish generic music wasn't protected by copyright. |
| 03:54.43 | nohh | ..how generic |
| 03:54.44 | Aurorus | is it music if no one listens to it? |
| 03:54.51 | Aurorus | or one cannot hear it |
| 03:55.18 | lXl | Anything ASCAP or RIAA pretends to protect. |
| 04:01.11 | nohh | seebs: looked it up, in the Sam Spade case, the author licensed exclusive rights for The Maltese Falcon to Warner Brothers, then sold exclusive rights for radio shows involving Sam Spade to ABC/Columbia Broadcasting.. WB sued Columbia claiming they had exclusive rights to use the Sam Spade character.. the court eventually decided that the character is just a vehicle for telling the story |
| 04:01.11 | nohh | and they only had exclusivity on the story, not the vehicles used to tell the story |
| 04:01.39 | hp94 | Smart people |
| 04:02.03 | lXl | You can't copyright Justin Beiber, he's just a vehicle for singing the song. |
| 04:03.06 | hp94 | As far as I'm concerned, you can't really copyright intangible things. And I've never been sure that Justin Bieber exists. |
| 04:03.11 | nohh | Warner Brothers' belief that they had exclusive ownership of the Sam Spade character was based on a previous ruling by a judge that fictional characters were copyrightable at all |
| 04:03.34 | hp94 | I think the British Crown created it, threw it into the media in the biggest farce ever seen, and then punked all of America. |
| 04:03.38 | nohh | of course you can copyright intangible things.. like music |
| 04:04.30 | nohh | a story, a play... copyright is all about intangible things |
| 04:05.01 | lXl | You can also copyright tangible things.. like corn. |
| 04:05.04 | lXl | Seriously.. corn. |
| 04:05.15 | lXl | Fuck copyright, it protects nobody. |
| 04:05.18 | hp94 | Don't try copyrighting food while I'm around. |
| 04:05.29 | lXl | Well you better take it up with Monsanto then. |
| 04:05.34 | hp94 | And music is tanglible - you can hear it. |
| 04:05.36 | lXl | Said and done. |
| 04:05.44 | lXl | Beethoven couldn't but he still wrote it. |
| 04:05.45 | nohh | tangible literally means something you can touch |
| 04:05.58 | lXl | You can touch air pressure I'm pretty sure. |
| 04:06.00 | hp94 | You can touch sound. |
| 04:06.04 | hp94 | And air pressure |
| 04:06.06 | hp94 | And corn. |
| 04:06.14 | hp94 | But not justin bieber - there for unbelieveable |
| 04:06.21 | hp94 | unbeliebable |
| 04:06.25 | hp94 | and untangible |
| 04:06.43 | hp94 | WOW I can't talk on the phone and type |
| 04:07.29 | Aurorus | If you touch Justin Bieber, you'll be getting a visit from the authorities and have to wear an ankle bracelet your whole life. |
| 04:07.31 | hp94 | brb a min |
| 04:07.35 | Aurorus | :P |
| 04:07.35 | nohh | Monsanto uses patents to protect their corn, not copyright, btw |
| 04:07.53 | *** join/#riftuidev hp94 (4495f601@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.149.246.1) |
| 04:08.02 | lXl | You don't touch Justin Beiber.. Justin Beiber touches you with his music. |
| 04:08.14 | lXl | Patent, copyright, it's all pretty F'd. |
| 04:08.27 | Cairenn | lXl: matter of opinion |
| 04:08.28 | nohh | copyright isn't that bad |
| 04:08.55 | lXl | It isn't bad, that's why you can have your internet access revoked for life for uploading a few cover songs. |
| 04:09.14 | seebs | My favorite character copyright case, though I'm not convinced it was a good ruling, was a car ad. |
| 04:09.46 | lXl | Or.. it isn't bad cause ASCAP only went after everyone, including Girl Scouts. Or, how ASCAP demands protection money from clubs and bars that host bands, even if the bands don't do cover songs.. "Just in case." |
| 04:09.47 | seebs | They had a car ad where a guy in a suit does exciting spy stuff from a car while music plays, and the music is similar enough to James Bond music to be evocative. No name is given, no actual music from the movies used. |
| 04:10.09 | nohh | just cause copyright enforcement and punishment is broken doesn't mean copyrighting as a general idea is a bad thing |
| 04:10.10 | seebs | They got sued by the James Bond franchise people and lost. |
| 04:10.22 | lXl | As a general idea no, but it doesn't work. |
| 04:10.31 | nohh | of course it works |
| 04:10.32 | seebs | I like the explanation from the original US copyright law; copyright is a bad thing, but it's less bad than not having it. |
| 04:10.33 | lXl | Rather, it is too commonly abused. |
| 04:10.55 | lXl | Here's the problem, it's very inconsistent. |
| 04:11.25 | seebs | The problem is, people moved from "we need enough protections that people will produce these kinds of creative works" to "there is an inherent moral right to absolute control", and that turns out to be a very destructive model. |
| 04:11.31 | lXl | In fashion, you can sell a wookie costume because you can't copyright a fashion concept, but if you draw a wookie then you are infringing on copyright (excempting fair use) |
| 04:12.13 | nohh | thems the laws |
| 04:12.18 | lXl | In music, it's alright to make backups of your own material but if you give it to someone else you violate copyright. In photography, any copying violates copyright law including making copies for yourself at home, but you can hand out the copies they give you to anyone. |
| 04:12.39 | lXl | There is no damn consistency anywhere, most of the copyright cases are based on arbitrary stances. |
| 04:12.46 | seebs | The laws we have now do a very bad job of preserving the benefits that gave us our copyright concepts. |
| 04:13.29 | seebs | The laws suck. The underlying idea may not be bad, but the current implementation is exceptionally bad, and full of rules that magnify the unwanted harms of the rules without doing much to preserve the benefits. |
| 04:13.57 | nohh | not really, they're just being abused by greedy and short-sighted corporations.. it's a transitional period |
| 04:14.00 | seebs | It's pretty much all been downhill since it became impossible for Steamboat Willie to ever go out of copyright, no matter what. |
| 04:14.05 | lXl | Copyright law needs to come down to if you damage the companies business, you voilate. Cover songs don't hurt anybody. Copying the original does. Selling your version of their music is, like an almost exact copy. |
| 04:14.25 | seebs | No, really. The DMCA anti-circumvention stuff is really, really, bad. |
| 04:14.31 | nohh | copyright is also used for good things, like free software.. and copyleft licensing |
| 04:15.06 | lXl | What's especially bad is you can't perform a cover on Youtube of a song.. but you can upload any video and put the music to that song to your video (as long as Youtube has it available). |
| 04:15.24 | nohh | http://www.techspot.com/news/39775-updated-dmca-legalizes-jailbreaking-dvd-ripping-and-more.html |
| 04:15.27 | seebs | Copyright in and of itself isn't a horrible idea. The modern permanent corporate copyright and restrictions on derivative works are pretty bad. |
| 04:15.33 | lXl | What's the point in that? Seriously, I don't get how a shitty quality vocal cover is more harmful than having the actual song. |
| 04:16.09 | lXl | Holy shit, something on OUR SIDE for once? |
| 04:16.17 | nohh | well lXl, i agree, but it's not your decision to make.. its the copyright owner's |
| 04:16.31 | nohh | let them bury themselves, its their right |
| 04:16.32 | seebs | nohh, I think you're arguing a different point. |
| 04:16.46 | lXl | I'm all for allowing someone right over their creation, but those people aren't the ones that have say. |
| 04:16.47 | seebs | I'm not arguing that it isn't, under our current laws, a decision for the copyright holder to make. |
| 04:17.03 | seebs | I'm arguing that it is *stupid* for the laws to be that restrictiive about what people can do. |
| 04:17.18 | seebs | It doesn't give us significant benefits and does a great deal of harm to the creative arts. |
| 04:17.37 | lXl | The people that actually write the music are put in debt that they will never pay off while the labels that profited from them are the ones screwing with laws. They go beyond what is necessary. Look at the internet IP bills that are being passed. |
| 04:17.53 | nohh | it absolutely isn't, if laws didn't exist to protect the rights of the creators they wouldn't have the tools needed to fight people who actually are doing immoral things |
| 04:17.59 | seebs | Same with the DMCA stuff; very limited allowances for some specific people to decrypt video is ridiculous. There is no reason for there to be ANY legal protection of encryption to begin with. |
| 04:18.13 | nohh | the problem is copyright owners using the law as a weapon against people that don't have bad intentions |
| 04:18.35 | seebs | No, the problem is that we have laws that prohibit all sorts of things which aren't actually violations of the original underlying concept of copyright. |
| 04:18.51 | seebs | It shouldn't be *possible* for the law to get used against people who aren't doing something actually bad. |
| 04:19.00 | lXl | "Permission for computer owners to bypass the need for external security devices called dongles if the dongle no longer works and cannot be replaced." < My Protools dongle got destroyed in a fire, free hax pls. |
| 04:19.14 | seebs | Sometimes, you can't make laws strong enough to prevent all possible bad behaviors without preventing good behaviors. |
| 04:19.21 | nohh | a performance of someone elses' copyrighted music is absolutely a violation of the underlying concept of copyright |
| 04:19.27 | seebs | In that case, the correct choice is to accept that you can't ban all bad behaviors. |
| 04:19.45 | nohh | just because it's someone in their living room on youtube and not Cher stealing someone's song doesn't matter |
| 04:19.56 | seebs | Mandatory cover licensing was adequate to solve this. |
| 04:20.28 | seebs | The thing is... The win condition for society isn't "absolute guarantee that no one can ever rip off someone else's copyrighted stuff". |
| 04:20.32 | nohh | and if the band paid the fee to perform a cover they wouldn't get taken down |
| 04:20.45 | seebs | It's "it is hard enough or rare enough to rip off someone else's stuff that people still write music and books." |
| 04:20.49 | lXl | There's 3 main types of people that violate copyright, the people that download who are mostly protected by anonymity of masses (too many to prosecute) and usually aren't violating any laws to begin with, the people that provide/upload that are usually savvy enough to use encryption and closed networks, and novice users who are the ones that generally get busted by uploading youtube videos or using dodgy services. |
| 04:20.58 | seebs | Once we have that, we're *done*. No further protections are useful. |
| 04:21.09 | lXl | The ones that usually don't know better, like parents whos kids are doing the downloading, are the ones that suffer. |
| 04:21.43 | nohh | downloading is really only prosecuted under copyright law because the laws haven't caught up with the technology |
| 04:22.04 | seebs | Well, and because the laws have been specifically crafted to try to prevent technology from doing what it does. |
| 04:22.18 | seebs | Underneath it all, our entire concept of copyright still dates back to a time when making copies cost money. |
| 04:22.19 | nohh | and well they really only go after uploaders since that's distribution and has bigger penalties |
| 04:22.19 | lXl | Nohh.. here's the example where the law of performance rights is abused, ASCAP shutting down clubs because they won't pay for cover rights for their artists. |
| 04:22.37 | lXl | No club should have to pay in advance just in case a band plays a cover, the club isn't even liable for what the artist plays. |
| 04:23.00 | nohh | they aren't? |
| 04:23.02 | seebs | Yeah. Paying extra money for every CD blank in case you copy copyrighted music? That's crappy. |
| 04:23.11 | lXl | Well, RIAA did get in a bit of trouble prosecuting downloaders since they were using illegal copies of Kazaa to catch them in the first place. |
| 04:23.37 | seebs | If I want to record my own music onto my own media, I have to pay money to the RIAA for the privilege. That's not an appropriate state of affairs. |
| 04:24.13 | nohh | canadian? |
| 04:24.50 | seebs | Actually, no. And it may not be true here right now. It was at one point; blank tapes had a charge for that. |
| 04:25.15 | lXl | There's no winning for them, that's why they are so aggressive. It's actually easier for them to monitor now than the days of making tapes for people. It's still impossible for them to effectively keep up with. |
| 04:25.27 | seebs | ... waaiiiit. I know why I'm being grumpy. I haven't eaten for hours and hours. |
| 04:25.31 | seebs | I should probably cook. |
| 04:25.38 | Cairenn | Food is good |
| 04:25.40 | lXl | When did RIAA put a surcharge on CDs anyway? |
| 04:25.43 | nohh | there is a 3% tax on the initial sale price of blank CDs labeled for music use - CDs labeled for computer use are not taxed |
| 04:26.01 | lXl | That's pretty bad, since there's not really any difference between the two. |
| 04:26.15 | lXl | Is that why we even have "music CDs"? |
| 04:26.47 | lXl | I'd like to see a class action from independant artists on recouperating the money RIAA took from them in this countermeasure. |
| 04:27.06 | nohh | in Canada it's 29 cents per CD which is idiotic yes... but thats not a copyright law, really.. just a law passed by people bought out by music companies |
| 04:27.46 | nohh | lXl: basically no one in the US pays any extra for CDs - they're ALL sold as CD-Rs for computers |
| 04:27.58 | lXl | We sell music and data CDs at work. |
| 04:28.31 | nohh | you wouldn't even know about the tax, it'd be paid by the manufacturer |
| 04:28.52 | lXl | Any time the manufacturer pays, the consumer pays. |
| 04:28.55 | nohh | and 3% of practically nothing is.. even less than practically nothing |
| 04:33.29 | nohh | problems with copyrights are: a) the fact that the protections provided by copyright have been extended to something like lifetime + 70 years and keep getting extended... b) how punitive some of the awards have been in simple infringement cases c) the erosion of fair use and d) the DMCA and safe harbor provisions leading to takedowns without any real due process |
| 04:34.12 | seebs | Yah. I would mind the DMCA a lot less if there were a mandatory statutory fine for bogus take-down requests. Even a smallish one, like they used for FDCPA or TCPA. |
| 04:34.13 | nohh | we can high-5 and just agree on those points |
| 04:34.53 | seebs | Right now, there's no downside to filing bogus DMCA requests. In theory it's under penalty of perjury but that's a criminal offense no one prosecutes. |
| 04:35.07 | seebs | If there were civil damages to be had, there'd be fewer bogus DMCA notices. |
| 04:35.52 | seebs | I know way too much about statutory damage laws, I used to sue junk faxers as a hobby. |
| 04:36.12 | seebs | hmm |
| 04:36.14 | seebs | garlic pasta |
| 04:36.52 | seebs | The junk faxer thing got a lot less fun when the housing bubble burst, because the most actionable offenders were small fraudulent mortgage brokers. |
| 04:36.52 | nohh | yes well illegal dmca notices arent just because the person actually DID have the right to use the copyrighted work.. it'd be claiming a violation on something you didnt even own the copyright to |
| 04:37.07 | seebs | Yeah. I get a ton of those. |
| 04:37.28 | seebs | I once got a threatening letter from whoever was doing stuff for some software group on the grounds that there existed a file named "doom3.zip". |
| 04:37.43 | seebs | They claimed that a careful investigation had showed that it was copyrighted by iD software. |
| 04:38.08 | seebs | This careful investigation apparently didn't pick up that an 8KB archive file which predated Doom's original release was probably unrelated. :) |
| 04:38.24 | lXl | Junk faxer? |
| 04:39.05 | seebs | Sending ads via fax without prior express permission is illegal in the US. |
| 04:39.13 | seebs | Statutory damages of $500 per fax. |
| 04:39.19 | lXl | Oh like spam? |
| 04:39.21 | seebs | Yeah. |
| 04:39.30 | nohh | worse than spam |
| 04:39.46 | seebs | Plus treble damages for willful and knowing violations, which does NOT mean that you knew it was illegal, but just that you knew you were sending a fax without express permission. |
| 04:39.46 | lXl | Well I could see that, it doesn't waste money to delete an email. |
| 04:39.51 | seebs | Heh. |
| 04:40.03 | seebs | You'd be amazed. Email spam costs are probably around a trillion a year these days. |
| 04:40.06 | seebs | Maybe higher by now. |
| 04:40.16 | lXl | Well it does cost, but it doesn't cost me. |
| 04:40.19 | nohh | ._. |
| 04:40.23 | seebs | Not directly, anyway. |
| 04:40.24 | nohh | a trillion? really? |
| 04:40.27 | seebs | Easily. |
| 04:40.28 | lXl | I don't pay for email.. |
| 04:40.38 | mckenziemc | time is money, friend |
| 04:40.39 | nohh | $140 for every man woman and child on the planet? |
| 04:40.49 | seebs | Sure. |
| 04:41.00 | lXl | Spam folder. :) |
| 04:41.05 | seebs | Look, what do you think the cost of running the Internet is? Because spam is a big part of that cost. |
| 04:41.07 | nohh | 7% of the US GDP in Spam costs? |
| 04:41.11 | seebs | Easily. |
| 04:41.27 | mckenziemc | yeah but you have to check it periodically to make sure nothing important got there, and/or add known good senders to a whitelist |
| 04:41.30 | seebs | How many people have full-time jobs that exist [b]entirely[/b] because of spam? |
| 04:41.34 | nohh | i think your number is a big off |
| 04:41.37 | mckenziemc | so it still takes extra time :p |
| 04:41.47 | seebs | No, there's just a lot of hidden costs. |
| 04:41.50 | nohh | I'll tell you it's not 7% of the workforce |
| 04:41.50 | lXl | I never check my spam folder, I've never missed an important email yet. |
| 04:42.01 | seebs | Sure, but that's just one of the MANY costs. |
| 04:42.31 | seebs | I've missed or gotten-to-late a fair amount of stuff. I'd guess I've put well over a full year's work into spam-related things. |
| 04:42.56 | seebs | Maintaining filters, upgrading email hardware, upgrading network pipes, dealing with filter-related problems... It adds up. |
| 04:43.01 | lXl | Weird, Google's always done a decent job of figuring out what is and isnt spam. |
| 04:43.20 | seebs | Think how many messages they make that determination for in a given day. |
| 04:43.22 | lXl | I've checked it before, it's always broken viagra messages and kenyan doctors. |
| 04:43.44 | seebs | Well, for a nice concrete example: I can't send email to community@riftgame.com, and I know they've put at least an hour or two into trying to find out why. |
| 04:43.45 | mckenziemc | so you _have_ taken time to check your spam folder |
| 04:44.22 | nohh | an hour or two eh? well that's $40 down.. $999,999,999,960 to go |
| 04:44.50 | seebs | Again, you're not thinking on the right scale. Several percent of *all the bandwidth we have ever had*. Anywhere. |
| 04:45.00 | lXl | When I first got email yes.. I was curious how effective it was and how much I was getting. It made me appreciative of its effectiveness. |
| 04:45.03 | seebs | Have you heard of botnets? Botnets exist almost entirely because of, and to send, spam. |
| 04:45.15 | seebs | Every computer that gets taken down for a day or so to clean out botnets? Spam. |
| 04:45.24 | seebs | People who can't work because the office network is down? Spam./ |
| 04:45.35 | nohh | no.. no that is not spam |
| 04:45.38 | lXl | "The website is down" |
| 04:45.39 | seebs | Yes, yes it is. |
| 04:45.47 | seebs | It's a cost that would not be there in the absense of spam. |
| 04:46.04 | seebs | That's what "the costs of X" are -- how much money you have to spend because of X that you wouldn't spend otherwise. |
| 04:46.04 | lXl | You can't really put cost and internet together. |
| 04:46.09 | seebs | HEh. |
| 04:46.14 | nohh | botnets would exist even without the existance of spam |
| 04:46.16 | lXl | Someone going to yahoo to google "amazon.com" then click the resulting link.. |
| 04:46.22 | lXl | that's wasting bandwidth which is $$> |
| 04:46.50 | seebs | Maybe they would, but the vast bulk of botnet infections just spam and replicate themselves. |
| 04:47.10 | seebs | Even if we only count the costs of the ones that are actually spamming, it's still huge. |
| 04:47.27 | mckenziemc | IXI: that's what advertisements are for |
| 04:49.03 | lXl | Can we sue gold farmers? |
| 04:49.17 | seebs | Sadly, probably not. |
| 04:49.30 | seebs | Anyway, suing junk faxers was a ton of fun. Also, they are pretty much ALL liars. And often very funny liars. |
| 04:49.31 | nohh | you can try |
| 04:49.39 | lXl | They cost me time and bandwidth. |
| 04:50.02 | seebs | Was a good experience, glad I had it, and now I know enough to basically deal with courts if I have to. |
| 04:50.24 | seebs | I have also sued companies that stiffed me on rebates, which is a fun way to increase the cost of trying to cheat. |
| 04:51.05 | lXl | Someone sued Jack in the Box and I got recompensated for the cost of shoes. |
| 04:52.12 | seebs | Okay, this time for sure, gonna go make Delicious Food. |
| 04:52.24 | lXl | Seebs going to make us all dinner? Sweet. |
| 04:52.27 | nohh | try not to sue anyone on your way to the kitchen |
| 04:52.58 | lXl | The pizza box wasted too much of my time and I have to spend money on garbage collection, want compensation in excess of 100,000$. |
| 04:53.16 | nohh | pizza box spam, giev $1T |
| 05:02.22 | mckenziemc | "Animals including birds and turtles can detect the Earth's magnetic field, and use the field to navigate during migration. Cows and wild deer tend to align their bodies north-south while relaxing, but not when the animals are under high voltage power lines, leading researchers to believe magnetism is responsible." |
| 05:02.51 | lXl | I can tell when rain is comming from getting sinus headaches. |
| 05:03.48 | mckenziemc | pollen/mold getting kicked up into the airstream? |
| 05:03.57 | lXl | I think it's more pressure differences. |
| 05:04.36 | Cairenn | Barometric pressure changes are one of my migraine triggers |
| 05:04.55 | lXl | I get allergies too from stuff and it's usually a runny nose and sneezing, when I get sinus headaches I don't get allergy symptoms just inflammation. |
| 05:05.08 | Cairenn | I'm a better storm warning than most weather forecasters :p |
| 05:05.55 | lXl | Ditto.. Last night I started feeling congested and it started sprinkling lightly and I thought.. nah it couldn't rain at this time of year.. apparently it did. |
| 05:06.15 | nohh | im imagining a weather forecast with a giant picture of your nose and you standing in front of a green screen pointing at it |
| 05:06.26 | lXl | That's what usually happens. |
| 05:06.42 | Cairenn | I've had a beaut of a migraine all day and we've had massive major thunderstorms all evening/night |
| 05:06.51 | lXl | Cold shower for sunburn. Hot shower for congestion. What do you do when you have both? :( |
| 05:07.19 | mckenziemc | freezer burn |
| 05:07.50 | Lyme | Cairenn: have you ever considered getting a mouth guard? |
| 05:08.08 | Cairenn | Lyme: Yes, but not because of my migraines |
| 05:08.20 | Aurorus | I didn't know Cairenn was into full-contact sports? :P |
| 05:08.28 | lXl | PvP IRL |
| 05:08.31 | Cairenn | lol |
| 05:08.40 | Aurorus | I bet she packs a mean punch at roller-derby |
| 05:08.50 | Cairenn | snicker |
| 05:09.01 | Lyme | Many people get migraines during the day because they have been grinding their teeth at night (not saying that is you however) |
| 05:09.45 | Cairenn | Lyme: I do, but that's not the 'main' cause of my migraines, although it's likely a contributing factor |
| 05:10.47 | Lyme | Well now, if getting rid of Aurorus was an option, then both causes would be gone :p |
| 05:10.53 | Aurorus | Cairenn: How is your computer screen relative to how you sit? A form of migraine is skull muscle exhaustion from having your head looking down at a laptop / etc. The little nerve endings get agitated. |
| 05:11.02 | Aurorus | lol Lyme - why ever pick on me? :P |
| 05:11.39 | Lyme | Because your joke about full-contact sports is worse than my bad jokes.. and I thought you could handle it! |
| 05:11.45 | lXl | I prefer the Al Gore position. |
| 05:11.57 | Aurorus | lol Lyme I see |
| 05:12.05 | Lyme | I've never heard of that sex position ixi |
| 05:12.16 | Cairenn | *snark* |
| 05:12.17 | Lyme | don't think I want to either |
| 05:12.24 | lXl | http://media.photobucket.com/image/manbearpig%20screen/southsidr706/1006_manbearpig_computer2.jpg |
| 05:12.27 | lXl | No, for using a computer |
| 05:12.35 | nohh | it's inconvenient |
| 05:12.44 | Aurorus | http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/computerworkstations/positions.html |
| 05:13.32 | Aurorus | There, I've stooped and even given you a US govt. site :P |
| 05:13.43 | Aurorus | Cairenn: You better be looking after your posture! :P |
| 05:14.02 | lXl | I look like Figure 8 but way more extreme |
| 05:14.15 | Lyme | The top edge of your screen should be at eye level. |
| 05:14.19 | lXl | Also lol CRT |
| 05:14.24 | Cairenn | Half the time I sit with one leg tucked under me and the other foot on the seat of my chair so my knee is bent, then I switch them |
| 05:14.48 | Aurorus | That sounds fun for a while :) |
| 05:14.55 | Lyme | Oh my, I've been coin locked |
| 05:14.58 | lXl | Try Figure 4 during Port Scion. |
| 05:15.20 | Aurorus | I always forget and sit like an adult. Sometimes you just have to get back into that fun type of sitting. |
| 05:15.55 | Lyme | when did phase 4 start? I've been moving the last few dyas |
| 05:15.57 | Lyme | days |
| 05:15.57 | Cairenn | I fidget |
| 05:16.03 | Aurorus | Lyme: 2 days ago |
| 05:16.16 | Aurorus | Lyme: I have a theory about gold advertisers |
| 05:16.43 | Lyme | they sell gold? |
| 05:17.23 | Aurorus | People go and buy powerlevelling services, thereby letting gold farmers know when to level the toon and when they want to play. The gold farmers hence know when a person is *not* expected to be online. Given that most people won't bother to change a password, the gold farmers attempt to log in when a person is expected to be sleeping to hawk their wares. |
| 05:17.37 | Lyme | Interesting, I'm further north from Victoria and my latency is better |
| 05:17.52 | Aurorus | Lyme: you an Aussie? |
| 05:18.22 | Lyme | Nah, a canoodian |
| 05:18.31 | lXl | I got hacked and never have even seen a Rift goldfarmer site.. |
| 05:18.59 | Aurorus | I think it's the other sites - gawker, et al |
| 05:19.02 | Lyme | was that when rift started? there was a password bug |
| 05:19.07 | Aurorus | Common passwords, usernames |
| 05:19.08 | lXl | I mean they do that too but not JUST that. |
| 05:19.26 | lXl | I know there were a few authentication b ugs when Rift started, what was the password bug. |
| 05:19.28 | lXl | ?* |
| 05:19.41 | Aurorus | you could access anyone's account without knowing their password :P |
| 05:19.48 | lXl | I suppose that was it. |
| 05:19.53 | Lyme | that was it |
| 05:19.56 | Cairenn | Lyme: this is from a few days ago, but ... as another Canadian, you'll probably enjoy this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pYGx1oiXuk - 3 parts, that's the link to the first one, went and saw it last night, completely worth the 1/2 hr to watch it |
| 05:20.21 | Aurorus | It was a Trion called the person reporting the bug within 2 hours of the report and had a patch rolled out within 5 hours. |
| 05:20.26 | lXl | I liked how everyone said it was impossible to get hacked without somehow disclosing your password or having spyware. |
| 05:20.29 | Aurorus | that kind of serious affair |
| 05:20.57 | lXl | Did he make an ambiguous post regarding the issue? The person that found it? |
| 05:21.29 | Lyme | I had my wow account hacked twice, both times using extremely complex passwords |
| 05:21.34 | lXl | I remember within a month or so of the game going live, around the time of the mass hackings, someone posting that they found a bug and reported it. |
| 05:21.43 | Aurorus | He PMed the details to Trion Community Manager, so yeah, it was an ambiguous public forum post |
| 05:22.04 | lXl | I had my WoW account hacked once in the 6 years I played it, I think that's about expected given the gold farmers try and stay a few steps ahead in exploiting security. |
| 05:22.22 | Aurorus | The other thing could be corrupt GMs and/or server ops |
| 05:22.23 | lXl | Yeah I think that's the same thing I saw, but he didn't give enough details at the time other than it was a bug. |
| 05:22.33 | Aurorus | People engineering is much easier than software engineering |
| 05:22.40 | lXl | I don't think GMs could gain access toy our password. |
| 05:23.07 | lXl | That typo made two correct words.. |
| 05:23.14 | Aurorus | perhaps not, but what could a gold-farmer friendly GM do? |
| 05:23.26 | lXl | Get fired. |
| 05:23.26 | Aurorus | spawn cash and leave accounts alone prob :P |
| 05:23.28 | seebs | I know roughly what the bug was. I'd partially reproduced it when the other guy got a proper reproducer. |
| 05:23.57 | lXl | I'd rather keep a kick ass job with a gaming company and make a comfortable living playing games than make a few dollars off a gold farmer. |
| 05:24.42 | Aurorus | yeah - what makes me cry is the thought that for gold farmers to keep advertising outside Sanctum / Meridian and with in-game mail - they have to have a pretty good business going |
| 05:24.43 | nohh | you think support for an mmo is a kick ass job? |
| 05:25.00 | lXl | It's better than a lot of jobs. |
| 05:25.21 | lXl | You get to say no more than other CS jobs. |
| 05:25.32 | lXl | "No, I can't disclose" "No, I can't reimburse stupid" etc |
| 05:25.37 | Cairenn | lol |
| 05:25.58 | Aurorus | Just imagine if you had to admin a community of sites where people would attempt to make modifications to skins and other graphical artifacts of games? |
| 05:26.00 | Lyme | no, you are a absolutely moron |
| 05:26.15 | nohh | Aurorus: sounds awful D: |
| 05:26.18 | Cairenn | chuckles at Aurorus |
| 05:26.36 | Aurorus | ;) |
| 05:30.25 | mckenziemc | i slouch too much if i have the top of my monitor at eye level |
| 05:30.46 | mckenziemc | i have mine on a stack on encyclopedias that's almost as tall as my computer :O |
| 05:30.49 | lXl | I like to have the centerish around eye level. |
| 05:30.50 | mckenziemc | mini-btx |
| 05:31.32 | lXl | If I get the job I applied for, I'ma buy dual 27s. There is no eye level. |
| 05:32.01 | lXl | Is 3 monitors excessive? |
| 05:32.06 | Aurorus | what job is that? |
| 05:32.16 | lXl | Server build tech. |
| 05:32.18 | Aurorus | I couldn't work without at least 2 monitors |
| 05:32.35 | lXl | I'd be physically handling Riftui.com's data :P |
| 05:32.48 | Aurorus | currently have 15" laptop + 30" cinema hd |
| 05:32.52 | lXl | Drool.. |
| 05:33.07 | Aurorus | yeah, tis nice :) paid for by work |
| 05:33.51 | lXl | Man.. my friend got a job as webmaster at a car dealer, first day of work he walks in to a new I7. They offered him dual monitors and he declined. |
| 05:34.06 | lXl | He reasoned double monitors means double expectations for productivity. :( |
| 05:34.22 | Aurorus | lol :-/ |
| 05:34.30 | Aurorus | poor bloke |
| 05:34.50 | lXl | He's got a great job though, small company big pay so he basically makes up his own work. |
| 05:35.05 | Aurorus | might be able to squeeze a new monitor in now ;) |
| 05:35.27 | lXl | I find myself having Netflix bumping up against Firefox when I'm rifting. |
| 05:35.30 | lXl | That bothers me. |
| 05:35.59 | lXl | Plus it would be nice to watch stuff in 1080p instead of boxed in resolutions I get on my phone. |
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| 06:05.59 | Aurorus | So when are the UI mods hitting live servers? |
| 06:06.39 | lXl | When Zorba gets it finished for release? |
| 06:06.58 | Cairenn | ^^ |
| 06:07.23 | Cairenn | We don't have even a guesstimate at the moment. |
| 06:07.36 | Aurorus | when it's done(tm) ? |
| 06:07.44 | Cairenn | Yeah, something like that. |
| 06:07.47 | lXl | soon(tm) |
| 06:08.22 | Cairenn | He's being very careful to not give any sort of a firm date, or even a time line. |
| 06:08.57 | Cairenn | Which is understandable |
| 06:10.04 | Lyme | just hope he doesn't get a girl friend, then his productivity will hit the floor |
| 06:10.10 | Cairenn | lol |
| 06:11.46 | Aurorus | Are there many girl UI authors? He may have gotten one already :-/ |
| 06:12.48 | Cairenn | lol |
| 06:12.56 | Cairenn | There are a few around, yes ;) |
| 06:14.21 | nohh | inconceivable |
| 06:14.30 | Cairenn | I know, right? |
| 06:15.10 | Lyme | everyone knows women don't use the internet |
| 06:15.50 | Cairenn | ~internet |
| 06:15.51 | purl | for pr0n! |
| 06:15.59 | Cairenn | ~girls |
| 06:15.59 | purl | girls are sweet, wonderful and necessary :), or (cryptic, complicated and bewildering) |
| 06:16.13 | Cairenn | hrm, can't remember the trigger atm |
| 06:16.35 | Lyme | I'm thankful my wife is in the first camp and not in the second |
| 06:17.57 | seebs | I tend to find people who have stereotypical "female" cognitive traits really confusing. That doesn't actually seem to correlate all that strongly with "girls", though. |
| 06:23.06 | Cairenn | ~irc |
| 06:23.06 | purl | Welcome to IRC, where the men are men, the women are men, and the little girls are FBI agents. |
| 06:23.11 | Cairenn | there we go |
| 06:26.43 | Lyme | the little boys are old fat bald peodfiles |
| 06:28.07 | nohh | pequodphiles? |
| 06:28.18 | nohh | big fans of moby dick? |
| 06:29.34 | mckenziemc | files nohh's feet down to stubs |
| 06:30.46 | nohh | i put on my peg leg and pirate hat |
| 06:31.00 | mckenziemc | haha |
| 06:34.39 | Cairenn | oh dear god, leave it in the wow channel, will ya? bad enough you guys do it over there, don't carry it forward :p |
| 06:35.38 | mckenziemc | :( |
| 06:38.36 | nohh | do what? im not in the wow channel |
| 06:38.55 | nohh | do they openly cyb0r in the wow channel? |
| 06:39.37 | Cairenn | no |
| 06:40.40 | nohh | too bad |
| 06:40.45 | Cairenn | no |
| 06:40.49 | mckenziemc | in case you didn't notice, it wasnt' the standard random slapstick, it was a reference to lyme's misspelling :p |
| 06:41.00 | Cairenn | yeah, I know :p |
| 06:42.33 | nohh | im very clever |
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| 15:01.29 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o nicoli_s] by ChanServ |
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| 16:26.08 | wOlfLinG | So are there any tutorials on addon making for a complete beginner? |
| 16:27.48 | hp94 | One second: |
| 16:28.14 | hp94 | http://forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?204481-Creating-an-addon-Step-by-step |
| 16:28.42 | wOlfLinG | k, thanks :) |
| 16:29.00 | wOlfLinG | Also, what restrictions are there on addons right now? |
| 16:29.25 | nicoli_s | incomplete API for one |
| 16:46.14 | dolby | wOlfLinG: http://wiki.riftui.com |
| 16:46.18 | dolby | has guides as well |
| 16:50.26 | wOlfLinG | k. I'll check that out as well :). Also, how much Lua should I know before trying to make addons? |
| 16:54.48 | dolby | if you know other languages you probably pick it up as you go |
| 16:57.56 | wOlfLinG | I know python and java reasonably well and have a good understanding of how programming works :) |
| 17:11.55 | seebs | That should be plenty, Lua's a pretty simple language. |
| 17:14.56 | *** join/#riftuidev hp94 (4495f601@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.149.246.1) |
| 17:15.07 | hp94 | Ever since I updated my drivers I've been crashing like crazy |
| 17:15.25 | hp94 | Click play on youtube: Crash. Record with mic: Crash. Play rift: Crash |
| 17:15.37 | Cairenn | ugh |
| 17:17.46 | hp94 | Rewrite dlls: Crash |
| 17:18.23 | hp94 | Use memory editing software on memory editing software: Crash |
| 17:18.42 | Dramiel1 | you need to go deeper |
| 17:19.47 | hp94 | Light motherboard on fire: Crash |
| 17:19.58 | hp94 | Soak motherboard to put out fire: Crash |
| 17:20.09 | hp94 | Light motherboard on fire to dry it faster: Crash |
| 17:21.04 | hp94 | I really hope zorbabeta isn't here to see this. |
| 17:21.15 | Morv_ | (note: we dont recommend to try this at home!) |
| 17:24.12 | wOlfLinG | So far i've been able to create a black box that covers half of the screen xD |
| 17:24.32 | wOlfLinG | Now to find out how to make a button that can hide/show said black box |
| 17:26.03 | hp94 | Don't bother with buttons now, they're going through a reworking |
| 17:26.58 | wOlfLinG | k. As i'm just trying to gte the hang of making addons, what kind of thing would you suggest me trying to do? |
| 17:28.25 | hp94 | Try making lots of things, and any time you come across something you need help with, just google/look up how to do it, or ask here or on some of the rift related forums. |
| 17:29.53 | Morv_ | wOlfLinG: for Buttons and simpler windows, have a look at Libra, a Rift addon library. ;) |
| 17:30.37 | wOlfLinG | Yeah, i'm looking at it now. Seems to always give me errors when using it though :/ |
| 17:30.45 | wOlfLinG | Whats the current version? |
| 17:32.18 | Morv_ | as far as i know theres only one version... something like 0.10. |
| 17:33.23 | wOlfLinG | hmm... I downloaded a version that said to be 0.3 |
| 17:33.49 | wOlfLinG | Can you link me to the 0.10 version? |
| 17:34.15 | Morv_ | ah, the one from riftui.com, right? |
| 17:34.26 | wOlfLinG | think so |
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| 17:35.44 | Morv_ | i did a fork of it some days ago, but i havent logged into rift for the last week, so this could be completely broken by now: https://github.com/MrMarvin/Libra |
| 17:36.27 | Morv_ | and there was no word from Priche since then... |
| 17:37.26 | *** join/#riftuidev Lyme1 (~Jason@S010600265ac734e1.du.shawcable.net) |
| 17:37.54 | Morv_ | but simply have a look and if it is broken for whatever reason, patch it (or tell Priche or me about it) |
| 17:40.43 | Morv_ | hopefully I succed my exams this year in the first try to have some holiday afterwards |
| 17:41.06 | Cairenn | You know you are more than welcome to use our version control, right Morv_? |
| 17:41.25 | Dramiel1 | no git no cookies! |
| 17:41.35 | Cairenn | dolby's working on it! :p |
| 17:41.35 | Morv_ | Cairenn: yep |
| 17:41.35 | Cairenn | hehehe |
| 17:41.40 | Cairenn | Morv_: k :) |
| 17:42.16 | wOlfLinG | I'm trying to use ''SlickTimers'' (Downloaded via the curse client) with libra, but keep getting a repeating error. Something about [C]: in function 'xpcall'. Not too sure which addon the problem is with though |
| 17:42.41 | Morv_ | well xpcall could be everything ;) |
| 17:43.02 | Morv_ | i never got what this is in the first place... |
| 17:43.18 | wOlfLinG | Annoyingly, it's coming from [Rift] rather than specifying an addon -.- |
| 17:45.57 | Dramiel1 | xpcall is used by rift to execute stuff.. there should be something else in stack trace that doesn't come from rift |
| 17:48.23 | wOlfLinG | I seem to get the same error (But not reapeating every frame or so) for the line ''local window = Libra.UI.Window:Create("Frame", sample)'' |
| 17:48.35 | wOlfLinG | No idea if the syntax for that is correct or not though xD |
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| 17:50.01 | Ackis | Cairenn: one could say... dolby is "gitting" it done |
| 17:50.03 | Ackis | hahahahha |
| 17:50.08 | Cairenn | lol |
| 17:50.11 | Cairenn | silly boy |
| 17:51.06 | Cairenn | Ackis: how's your lady doing? |
| 17:51.17 | Ackis | good but she passed her disease on to me |
| 17:51.22 | Cairenn | ugh |
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| 17:51.25 | Cairenn | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:51.29 | Ackis | and I passed my head cold on to her |
| 17:51.30 | Cairenn | staples Lyme to the channel |
| 17:51.32 | *** part/#riftuidev Lyme (~Jason@S010600265ac734e1.du.shawcable.net) |
| 17:51.32 | Ackis | so it's a win win situation |
| 17:51.35 | Cairenn | ugh again |
| 17:51.36 | Cairenn | heh |
| 17:51.38 | Ackis | lol |
| 17:52.03 | Ackis | we had a wicked thunderstorm here this morning |
| 17:52.25 | Ackis | I have about 4-5 deep cat scratches on my leg from a loud bit of thunder and my cat getting scared shittless |
| 17:52.44 | Cairenn | We had one last night - high winds, thunder & lightening, hail, power out, cat freaking |
| 17:52.50 | Cairenn | nod |
| 17:53.29 | Cairenn | went for a walk last night after the worst of it had passed - bunch of trees knocked down, or tops snapped off, etc |
| 17:54.43 | Cairenn | Kitties don't like big thunderclaps |
| 17:55.14 | Ackis | aye |
| 18:09.30 | nicoli_s | poor kittuns |
| 18:35.58 | hp94 | I get to see my cat like 30 minutes out of the week |
| 18:36.02 | hp94 | =( |
| 18:36.24 | lXl | I have a cat friend next door that always comes up to me. |
| 18:36.25 | Cairenn | mmmrh? |
| 18:36.44 | lXl | When I pull up from work it starts prancing over, even when it's sprinkling outside. |
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| 18:37.05 | Cairenn | nice |
| 18:42.29 | nicoli_s | sounds like my cat mr man |
| 18:42.43 | nicoli_s | he spends all day lazing around the back yard, be he comes bounding when he hears our car |
| 18:42.46 | Ackis | my neighbours cat has jumped in my car before lol |
| 18:42.53 | Cairenn | :) |
| 18:43.26 | Ackis | I've been busted talking to him (by the neighbour) |
| 18:43.28 | Ackis | he's so friendly |
| 18:43.44 | lXl | That reminds me, time to try and fix my car window again.. I have a convertable and did a quick patch of the back window with some thin clear vinyl and it fell off. |
| 18:44.09 | Cairenn | eck |
| 18:44.20 | Cairenn | (2:35:02 PM) hp94: I get to see my cat like 30 minutes out of the week <== why? |
| 18:44.32 | lXl | I haven' |
| 18:44.38 | lXl | t seen my cat in years. :( |
| 18:45.14 | Cairenn | Awww :( |
| 18:45.53 | hp94 | Cairenn: I only get to see my cat if I go out of town to my mothers place, and the cat has been spending most of its time sleeping in the base (shes like 15-17 years old or something by now). |
| 18:46.01 | Cairenn | Ah |
| 18:46.02 | hp94 | lxl: =( |
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| 19:51.52 | ZorbaBeta | I really want to rig the errors so it doesn't show Rift internal lua code, but that hasn't happened yet |
| 19:52.35 | wOlfLisK | I have no idea how I would display an image onscreen :(. Is it possible? |
| 19:59.17 | hp94 | What do you mean so it doesn't display Rift internal lua code? You mean Rift Core? |
| 19:59.55 | ZorbaBeta | hp, the various internal things it shows when giving you a stack trace |
| 20:00.03 | ZorbaBeta | it should really just show your code, nothing more |
| 20:00.56 | hp94 | I think it's better as is (Perhaps thats why you want to change it?) |
| 20:02.12 | ZorbaBeta | there's no useful information given by exposing those internal line numbers, it's just visual clutter |
| 20:02.19 | ZorbaBeta | the only person who cares about them is me |
| 20:02.34 | hp94 | I care (/sappy) |
| 20:03.17 | ZorbaBeta | and even I care only when debugging those systems :P |
| 20:03.54 | seebs | Well, wouldn't that improve the quality of bug reports, though? :) |
| 20:04.27 | ZorbaBeta | slightly, but at a significant cost. if someone can produce reliable repro steps then I could just turn the filter off and run them locally |
| 20:04.28 | hp94 | Oh, also Zorba, I have a couple questions that I didn't know who to ask (about developing api). |
| 20:04.33 | ZorbaBeta | plus nobody's ever reported a bug in those systems :) |
| 20:05.03 | ZorbaBeta | I'd rather not confuse *all* users for the sake of making it slightly easier for me to debug a few hundred lines of code. |
| 20:05.08 | ZorbaBeta | hp94, go for it |
| 20:06.17 | hp94 | Alright (Deep breathe): |
| 20:08.22 | hp94 | Perhaps I didn't have it as well thought out as I thought. |
| 20:08.26 | hp94 | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:08.38 | ZorbaBeta | wolflisk, btw, it is possible, but hopefully someone else will answer 'cause I'm really crazy busy :/ |
| 20:08.43 | ZorbaBeta | hp94, well, when you figure it out, let me know :) |
| 20:08.58 | hp94 | With what I'm looking at, I'll see you in a year lol |
| 20:09.35 | hp94 | But thanks =D |
| 20:09.43 | ZorbaBeta | np ^^ |
| 20:11.58 | nohh | wolflisk: settexture |
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| 20:22.25 | hp94 | Are you missing a using directory or reference assembly? Yes, yes I am. I guess that means its time to go outside. |
| 20:33.03 | Dramiel1 | ZorbaBeta: is it (will it be) possible to extract lua code that is used by rift? |
| 20:35.15 | ZorbaBeta | dramiel, I think someone's already managed that. At the moment, the lua code is thoroughly uninteresting, and so the answer is "not officially because it's just not worth anyone's time". |
| 20:35.19 | ZorbaBeta | If we end up doing parts of our UI in Lua we'll revisit that. |
| 20:35.43 | wOlfLisK | Is there anything wrong with this? local sample:SetTexture("", "Layout.png") I keep getting an eroor saying there is an unexpected character near the : |
| 20:39.11 | hp94 | ZorbaBeta: Will we be seeing 'protected' functions, such as CastSpell(spell) or Jump()? |
| 20:39.14 | Dramiel1 | actually even without UI it is good thing to see how some stuff works :) well, where is my olly? |
| 20:40.11 | ZorbaBeta | hp94, not in that form. Because our UI isn't written in Lua, there's no reason to have a concept of "tainting" or "functions that can only be called from official Trion code" |
| 20:40.22 | ZorbaBeta | we don't have any official Trion Lua code, so we just won't provide those functions. |
| 20:40.29 | hp94 | Alright |
| 20:40.43 | ZorbaBeta | We'll definitely have functions that cannot be called during combat, however, and probably hardware-event-consuming functions. |
| 20:41.21 | ZorbaBeta | Although I'll admit I'm kind of entertained by the idea of a CastSpell function that just always fails. |
| 20:41.38 | ZorbaBeta | Probably not the best use of time. :) |
| 20:42.01 | wOlfLisK | casts fail. It fails |
| 20:43.27 | hp94 | One thing I'd like to mention is that if you have a PickUpSpell()/PickUpAction() type function that lets you have a spell in the cursor, make that hardware only as well. |
| 20:43.37 | hp94 | Same with PlaceAction/PlaceSpell |
| 20:44.08 | ZorbaBeta | Yeah, I haven't come to a solid conclusion on how actionbar/inventoryspot replacements will work, but that's obviously a concern. |
| 20:44.27 | Dramiel1 | actually "secure code" would be quite nice to have.. those frames in wow where you had to setup type xtype xxtype xyztype to cast spell were horrible.. something like frame:SetSecureClick("CastSpell(\"Death Touch\", \"target\")"); would be nice |
| 20:46.02 | ZorbaBeta | dramiel, that's actually somewhat reminiscent of my current plans, though I might have it work with the macro and event system. frame.Event.LeftDown = "cast @group03 Bloom" |
| 20:46.10 | ZorbaBeta | I have no idea if that will actually prove possible. |
| 20:46.27 | seebs | I sorta wish the UI would migrate to Lua eventually so we could do cleaner hooking of base UI code. |
| 20:46.43 | seebs | This is a totally reasonable request and you should do it immediately. |
| 20:47.27 | Dramiel1 | oh macros would be even better.. but one thing - if it is not done already - please block "cast A cast B cast C cast D" spam win macros :p |
| 20:47.35 | ZorbaBeta | to be honest I'd like that as well, but the chance is extremely slim :) |
| 20:48.32 | nicoli_s | Dramiel1:i can get you access to the internal lua files in the client if youd like, but theres nothing really interesting |
| 20:48.41 | nicoli_s | most helpful thing i found was a list of possible fonts |
| 20:49.18 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, there really isn't any interesting lua code. in fact I think a large amount of the lua code has been ripped out since nicoli looked over it |
| 20:49.38 | Dramiel1 | :) I'm sure there will be something helpful eventually |
| 20:50.12 | nicoli_s | also, ZorbaBeta:do you know why your flash files have to embed copies of every lib it uses in every file? is there really no shared lib you can use for flash? |
| 20:50.17 | nicoli_s | seems so wasteful |
| 20:50.53 | nicoli_s | wOlfLinG:i can lend a hand with you trying to show a texture, just pm me |
| 20:51.09 | wOlfLinG | k |
| 20:51.24 | ZorbaBeta | nicoli, to be honest, I don't know - all that stuff was set down long before I got there. |
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| 20:51.31 | Dramiel1 | and one wanders why Jobs doesnt like flash |
| 20:51.34 | ZorbaBeta | my philosophy has been "if I don't touch it, it probably won't break". |
| 20:51.39 | hp94_ | I'm back - hope I didn't miss too much. |
| 20:51.50 | nicoli_s | ZorbaBeta:mmk, it just always bothers me when im browsing the action script code |
| 20:52.02 | nicoli_s | which i do from time to time looking for interesting stuff :P |
| 20:53.00 | seebs | I would kill for macros more like WoW's, and the death of the current "just put in everything and the first one that can trigger triggers" macros. |
| 20:53.07 | hp94_ | Anyways, what I was going to say was I made an addon in wow that got spell info, picked up spell, placed in slot, attempted to cast, recorded all cast completion results, got next valid spell, repeat - and I got about 50~ spells that players shouldn't be allowed to cast, that I could cast |
| 20:53.30 | nicoli_s | hp94:yeah im sure they want to help you do that in rift :P |
| 20:53.59 | ZorbaBeta | if you succeed in doing that with our code, please let us know ;) |
| 20:54.10 | hp94_ | One of the better ones was an aoe spell that stunned for 20 seconds - I cast it on the healer over and over until everyone complained, and vote-kicked him/her because they weren't doing their job =D |
| 20:54.57 | hp94_ | In fact, I think I might still have pictures... |
| 20:55.27 | hp94_ | Stunning party members: http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll302/8u3jc/?action=view¤t=WoWScrnShot_111010_143249.jpg Casting GM spells: http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll302/8u3jc/?action=view¤t=WoWScrnShot_111010_143348.jpg |
| 20:56.45 | Dramiel1 | that reminds me of obvious death knight alpha spell: https://photos-2.dropbox.com/i/o/klgFT1NI4dMzOCbo8eFZeBdBZeEMqU0OF-vxKqqVU9A/1799304/1311109200/c277b75 |
| 20:56.58 | hp94_ | That link errors |
| 20:57.17 | hp94_ | Umm.. I think I have one more: |
| 20:57.25 | hp94_ | http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll302/8u3jc/WoWScrnShot_111010_040239-1.jpg --more GM spells |
| 20:57.43 | hp94_ | That was actually a fun time (for me I guess) |
| 20:58.25 | ZorbaBeta | I really want to turn trion dev tools's event log into something like that |
| 20:59.44 | Dramiel1 | that reminds me.. we need scrollbars or frame cropping :p |
| 21:00.02 | ZorbaBeta | it is on the todo list. buttons are significantly higher up on the todo list. ;) |
| 21:00.17 | hp94_ | Well, I wrote my own eventtrace in wow (given, they made a RegisterAllEvents() function so it wasn't hard for me). |
| 21:00.18 | Dramiel1 | who needs buttons when you have on click :p |
| 21:00.27 | seebs | Okay, so, uhm. |
| 21:00.31 | Cairenn | Don't forget about viewport/letterbox too, ZorbaBeta ;) |
| 21:00.41 | seebs | Just an idle question: *why* did you cast that spell on a healer? |
| 21:00.48 | ZorbaBeta | I don't even want to think about viewport right now |
| 21:00.50 | ZorbaBeta | that may take a while |
| 21:00.56 | Cairenn | ;) |
| 21:00.58 | seebs | I mean, what's the benefit to you of causing some random innocent bystander to get votekicked? |
| 21:03.18 | nicoli_s | trolling for the sake of trolling id imagine |
| 21:04.43 | seebs | Arrrgh. I am so sick of waiting for my car to actually show up. |
| 21:04.51 | seebs | In theory it should be there Any Day Now. |
| 21:05.47 | Dramiel1 | are you waiting for bumblebee? :p |
| 21:07.41 | hp94_ | seebs: I cast the spell on the healer so that the tank would keep saying that he was dying cause he wasn't getting any heals, and then I'd link my healometer stats showing him doing no healing, then someone else would initiate a vote to kick so I didn't use up my own cooldown on vote to kick. =D. WoW is like the only place that I would ever think about doing that lol, no consequences, everyones a jerk in wow lfd - its like 4chan. |
| 21:07.53 | hp94_ | fun fun fun fun (friday, friday) |
| 21:08.06 | seebs | The key consequence of being a jerk is being a jerk. |
| 21:08.35 | seebs | See, it has the consequence that I will probably never try to help you program, even though I'm a very experienced teacher of programmers, and I'm good at Lua. |
| 21:08.37 | hp94_ | My friends call wow lfd the jerk circle - crude, but, you know.... thats pretttttttty much summing it up. |
| 21:08.55 | seebs | And the consequence that most of the people who encounter you will end up disliking you and avoiding helping you. Because you're a jerk. |
| 21:09.20 | seebs | People who only stop actively trying to hurt other people when they think they will be punished for it are not generally people you want to spend a lot of time supporting or helping. Waste of effort. |
| 21:09.40 | Dramiel1 | wow sucks. you should play AoC on new, very nicely named server "RAGE" :p |
| 21:09.52 | Dramiel1 | its basically ffa :p |
| 21:11.05 | nohh | amen to that seebs |
| 21:11.21 | hp94_ | seebs: http://www.ponychan.net/chan/pic/src/131100781031.jpg |
| 21:12.32 | lXl | How the hell do you desolder a capacitor where they bent the prongs? |
| 21:12.53 | nohh | very carefully? |
| 21:13.02 | hp94_ | Step one - get a sharp piece of metal (like a knife) |
| 21:13.04 | nohh | practice? i dont know this joke |
| 21:13.18 | lXl | Neither do I but M Audio is punking me hard right now. |
| 21:13.24 | hp94_ | Step two - Put knife under prong where you want to bend it upwards |
| 21:14.43 | lXl | This seems so dangerous but.. ah it's working. |
| 21:14.50 | hp94_ | Use the leverage to carefully make it straight |
| 21:15.35 | hp94_ | Just to ask, out of curiousity, are you jailbreaking anything? I might be able to help more if you have any questions. |
| 21:15.47 | lXl | M Audio AV30 speakers. |
| 21:15.52 | nohh | hope its not a very big capacitor |
| 21:16.31 | nohh | what're you messing with those for? shits and giggles? |
| 21:16.42 | lXl | My speakers are fucked anwyay might as well learn. |
| 21:16.58 | lXl | One of the caps is bulging and it apparently affects the right speaker. |
| 21:17.48 | nohh | oh ok |
| 21:19.25 | hp94_ | heh, this is what I look like when I program: http://www.ponychan.net/chan/pic/src/131099402887.png |
| 21:20.24 | lXl | Only when you program? |
| 21:20.55 | hp94_ | And when I drive - still haven't been pulled over yet. |
| 21:21.19 | lXl | Well I'ma see if I can replace this cap.. at least it's speakers not mobo. |
| 21:21.28 | lXl | I cant do that I drive a stick. :( |
| 21:21.51 | hp94_ | Same |
| 21:22.00 | nohh | i drive a car |
| 21:22.19 | hp94_ | nohh: stop bragging |
| 21:22.36 | nohh | just keep your sticks out of the road |
| 21:27.40 | lXl | The stupid cap was epoxied onto the board too.. |
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| 21:37.38 | hp94_ | lol skype people: "If I ate myself would I be twice as big or disappear completely?" |
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| 23:08.11 | wOlfLinG | Just wondering whether Lua files can call/ run/ read other Lua files. I have an addon idea that may require something along those lines :/ |
| 23:08.37 | seebs | In general yes, in an addon subsystem, quite likely only within very strict limits. |
| 23:08.43 | seebs | Although I think this is a language with an eval(). |
| 23:11.33 | wOlfLinG | The limits should be fine, as long as I can get a lua file to run a different Lua file. Also, is there a way to automatically detect folders in a directory with the Lua addon or not? Trying to get a TitanBar type plugin system working |
| 23:13.46 | seebs | Ahh. There is/will-be stuff like that, but I don't think it's all in place yet. The conventional way to do that is that you don't look for files, though. |
| 23:14.00 | seebs | The game looks for files and then makes data structures available to you which reveal which things it loaded. |
| 23:16.31 | wOlfLinG | ok, sounds good :). Can't wait until the API is officially released so I can get on with making it' |
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