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| 00:03.21 | gonkulator | cowmixtoo: not many wrote PG1 apps, and I don't think many have started writing pg2 apps |
| 00:04.02 | gonkulator | if any |
| 00:04.09 | gonkulator | since pg2 hasn't really been started yet :) |
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| 01:45.42 | scanline | hmm. |
| 01:45.46 | scanline | ~nslookup picogui.org |
| 01:45.48 | scanline | ~nslookup navi.picogui.org |
| 01:45.56 | scanline | whew |
| 01:46.01 | scanline | guess it's just my local DNS screwed up |
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| 12:13.34 | TD | scanline: vrml? |
| 12:13.40 | TD | ugh |
| 12:14.49 | scanline | it's not all of vrml, just a very tiny subset |
| 12:15.14 | TD | i thought they had obsoleted vrml in favour of web3d anyway? |
| 12:15.15 | scanline | I don't like VRML, but it's the best model format I could find for this task :-/ |
| 12:15.19 | TD | still, i guess it's useful |
| 12:15.25 | TD | is that instead of whatever format bzflag uses? |
| 12:15.30 | scanline | eh |
| 12:15.33 | scanline | bzflag has no format |
| 12:15.38 | scanline | it's all hardcoded OpenGL commands |
| 12:15.41 | TD | oh right. |
| 12:15.42 | TD | hehe |
| 12:15.47 | TD | great *rolls eyes* |
| 12:15.53 | scanline | so this will be something I can export from Blender at least |
| 12:16.25 | scanline | blender can do a handful of other formats, but they're either a complete pain in the arse to decode (dxf and 3ds) or are too simplistic (obj) |
| 12:16.44 | scanline | VRML is at least somewhat standardized, and parseable with a lexer and a stack |
| 12:17.07 | scanline | and I just found this really cool feature of python 2.2 that makes lexers mind-bogglingly easy |
| 12:18.38 | TD | yeah |
| 12:18.43 | TD | hmm, what? |
| 12:18.56 | TD | no more flex? *looks hopeful* |
| 12:19.04 | scanline | yep, no flex |
| 12:19.25 | scanline | I just have a big regex with named groups for all my tokens, then I use the new finditer() method |
| 12:19.42 | scanline | it returns an iterator that lets you step through all the matches |
| 12:20.21 | scanline | so I compile my big regex as 'lexicalScanner' then run this: |
| 12:20.25 | scanline | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:20.26 | scanline | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:20.26 | scanline | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:20.26 | scanline | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:20.59 | TD | hmm |
| 12:21.40 | TD | what does a named group look like? my regex-fu is not strong. |
| 12:21.49 | scanline | well, it's a python-specific regex extension |
| 12:22.05 | scanline | (?P<id>[^\s]+) |
| 12:22.17 | TD | ah, i see |
| 12:22.30 | TD | which part is the name? |
| 12:22.32 | scanline | but there's a verbose flag you can enable for the regex compiler, so I have all the token patterns on separate lines, with comments |
| 12:22.37 | scanline | 'id' is the name |
| 12:22.39 | TD | handy |
| 12:22.43 | scanline | yep |
| 12:22.50 | scanline | a lot nicer than matching up group numbers |
| 12:23.42 | TD | hmm, so what would that regex match against? a series of spaces? that can't be right, i don't understand the ?P at the start |
| 12:24.04 | scanline | the ?P is just the way you start a named group |
| 12:24.11 | TD | intuitive |
| 12:24.26 | TD | oh wait |
| 12:24.30 | TD | NOT a series of spaces :) |
| 12:24.35 | scanline | well, they didn't have much choice when implementing all these extensions but staying compatible with other regexes |
| 12:24.46 | TD | oh, yeah. i guess so |
| 12:24.59 | scanline | all the extensions take the form of (?foo) because "(?" normally has no meaning |
| 12:25.33 | scanline | so I have these fun lines like: |
| 12:25.35 | scanline | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:26.02 | TD | i love regular expressions almost as much as i love COM :) |
| 12:26.08 | scanline | bah |
| 12:26.10 | scanline | regexes are cool |
| 12:27.09 | TD | yeah, well, they are like COM. simple at first, but with lots of extensions. yet popular due to being very powerful |
| 12:28.01 | scanline | hmm... looks like python's tokenize module has a better float regex than that one |
| 12:56.21 | hunger | scanline: You should really try to make your buildsystem less bash-dependant! |
| 12:56.44 | hunger | scanline: That it assumes /bin/sh to be bash is really ugly. |
| 12:57.02 | scanline | hunger: I have no desire whatsoever to touch the existing build system |
| 12:57.11 | scanline | hunger: if you want it fixed, send a patch |
| 13:01.50 | hunger | scanline: I don't mind the bash dependancy per se, just that the build fails without any notice on what is going wrong if /bin/sh is not a bash. |
| 13:10.53 | TD | you realise that for 99.999% of systems picogui is built on, that assumption holds true? |
| 13:10.56 | TD | right? |
| 13:11.34 | scanline | and for 100% of the systems picogui is built on I don't care about the current build system :) |
| 13:12.04 | TD | hehe |
| 13:12.22 | TD | the screenshots |
| 13:12.25 | TD | look cool |
| 13:12.30 | TD | hmm, must rebind keys to be less annoying... |
| 13:12.37 | scanline | it barely builds hello world |
| 13:12.55 | scanline | I haven't worked on it in about two weeks.. taking a break to work on something more interesting |
| 13:12.56 | TD | maybe i'll wait for a bit then |
| 13:13.00 | TD | yeah, so i noticed :) |
| 13:13.13 | scanline | :) |
| 13:13.24 | TD | i just want to go sunbathe |
| 13:13.37 | scanline | :-/ |
| 13:15.56 | scanline | the thing that really bugs me the most about VRML is that you can't generate a complete grammar of it without knowing all the attributes and data types |
| 13:16.18 | scanline | all because nobody thought it would be important to have an end of statement marker of some kind |
| 13:16.48 | scanline | so I'm trying a heuristic approach to parsing :) |
| 13:19.37 | TD | lol |
| 13:19.46 | TD | yes, VRML had big problems, hence Web3d |
| 13:19.54 | TD | xml may be more verbose, but it's easy to parse |
| 13:20.05 | scanline | yes |
| 13:20.15 | scanline | if only I was doing this for any of the reasons VRML or Web3d were intended for :) |
| 13:20.38 | scanline | I sure hope the whole 3d model file format mess clears up eventually |
| 13:21.00 | scanline | it took image file formats a while.. will probably take 3D formats longer |
| 13:21.11 | TD | yeah, i remember from working on the pythian project (3d game in delphi) that model formats always gave big headaches |
| 13:21.20 | TD | i think they settled after i left on 3DS Max with extra metadata |
| 13:21.26 | TD | image formats are still a mess |
| 13:21.33 | TD | no good replacement for simple animated gifs |
| 13:21.44 | TD | PNG not fully supported by the most "popular" implementation etc |
| 13:21.50 | scanline | oh, yes there is... mng is a good format, but nobody seems to want to implement it |
| 13:22.02 | scanline | I can't believe that it got removed from mozilla CVS |
| 13:22.37 | TD | i used to think mng was a good format |
| 13:22.48 | TD | but, all the people i've talked to who actually were in a position to implement it, disliked it |
| 13:22.54 | TD | it sounded like it was trying to beat flash or something |
| 13:22.56 | scanline | hmm |
| 13:23.02 | TD | very very complex |
| 13:23.29 | TD | libmng was huge, and had a badly designed API, ie for instance, it wouldn't fit into gdk-pixbuf, because you can have say an infinite series of frames, and infinite frame resolution |
| 13:23.35 | TD | s/was/is/ |
| 13:23.40 | scanline | ha |
| 13:24.31 | TD | so, i think what's needed is just a very simple GIF animation equivalent, but using png. doesn't have to be complex |
| 13:24.35 | TD | but, so far that doesn't exist |
| 13:31.23 | TD | does savannah only host stuff that's LGPL/GPL licensed? |
| 13:31.29 | bn | lists.sourceforge.net really sucks. |
| 13:31.42 | bn | i can't change any subscriptions... |
| 13:31.48 | TD | they are having problems atm |
| 13:31.52 | TD | i can't check rewind out of anoncvs |
| 13:32.07 | scanline | the CVS servers have been amazingly broken |
| 13:32.34 | scanline | there's that 24-hour-or-more delay on anoncvs of course, and the last couple days SSH'ed CVS has been going out intermittently |
| 13:33.04 | bn | couldn't the pgui-devel archives be exported to somewhere else? |
| 13:33.05 | TD | yeah |
| 13:33.18 | TD | it's dead to the world at the moment |
| 13:33.47 | scanline | bn: how would I export the archives? |
| 13:34.19 | bn | don't know. depends on sf (if they wake up sometime) |
| 13:34.35 | bn | but there are sites which allow import of existing mail archives |
| 13:38.00 | bn | for example, searching is also broken on sf. it never finds results any more, no matter what search string you give :( |
| 13:38.39 | TD | hard to tell what will happen if sourceforge implodes |
| 13:38.43 | TD | i guess we all go back to hosting our own projects |
| 13:38.48 | TD | already happening to some extent |
| 13:43.00 | bn | http://www.mail-archive.com/faq.html#import |
| 13:43.26 | bn | but I don't know if sf lets you access the archives in raw format |
| 13:43.36 | scanline | I think there was already somewhere non-sourcefoge that archives pgui-devel |
| 13:43.47 | bn | really? |
| 13:44.02 | bn | this would be handy for searches atm... |
| 13:44.02 | TD | gmane |
| 13:44.06 | TD | (probably) |
| 13:44.11 | TD | it's great :) |
| 13:44.32 | scanline | it appears to be aon mail-archive.com |
| 13:44.34 | scanline | er, on |
| 13:44.53 | TD | that place is cool too |
| 13:45.28 | bn | yeah! i was blind.. |
| 13:45.48 | bn | or only searched for "pico" instead of "pgui" %-) |
| 13:47.08 | bn | ok, then, no need to do any export out of sf, i guess |
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| 13:58.21 | lalo | scanline: do you live? |
| 13:58.30 | lalo | ibot: seen scanline |
| 13:58.31 | | scanline is currently on #picogui (14d 9h 44m 36s) #bzflag (14d 9h 44m 36s). Has said a total of 3549 messages. Is idling for 13m 57s |
| 13:58.48 | scanline | hi lalo |
| 13:58.50 | lalo | nice uptime :-) |
| 13:58.53 | lalo | how is life? |
| 13:58.58 | TD | he lives! |
| 13:58.59 | scanline | ah, it's alright |
| 13:59.07 | scanline | nice to see you back :) |
| 13:59.37 | lalo | you seen my horrible hack on ncurses video? ;-) |
| 14:00.05 | scanline | hmm, nope |
| 14:00.42 | lalo | figures. |
| 14:01.19 | scanline | I have a very limited amount of motivation for dead-end projects |
| 14:01.42 | scanline | if I'm going to work on something nobody will use, it might as well be fun |
| 14:01.58 | lalo | hmm, someone sounds depressed. |
| 14:02.13 | TD | aww |
| 14:02.15 | Xentac | lalo: hey lalo... I was going through the plone developers list and I saw you! |
| 14:02.23 | scanline | oh, not depressed. Just annoyed with picogui and doing something different |
| 14:02.38 | TD | fair enough. i find two projects is enough to keep me amply entertained |
| 14:03.21 | scanline | so.. I was working on pgbuild up until about last thursday when I decided to take a break from that and chase down another one of my crazy ideas |
| 14:03.53 | lalo | are you too annoyed to help me debugging something funny with pngs? ;-) |
| 14:04.01 | lalo | btw, don't you think we should perhaps make a release? |
| 14:04.04 | scanline | what sort of funny thing? |
| 14:04.19 | scanline | I am certainly not releasing anything with this autoconf system still in it |
| 14:04.24 | scanline | I'm so sick and tired of supporting it |
| 14:04.33 | lalo | hmm. |
| 14:04.34 | lalo | fair |
| 14:04.46 | lalo | but pgserver has been changing a bit |
| 14:04.58 | lalo | perhaps I could help you a bit with pgbuild? |
| 14:04.59 | scanline | a little... |
| 14:05.35 | scanline | maybe |
| 14:06.51 | scanline | my motivation for picogui needs to return first |
| 14:07.33 | lalo | here, this is my bug: http://www.picogui.org/Members/lalo/pg-crossfire-1.png/photo_view |
| 14:07.40 | scanline | I'm beginning to feel like I should just formally toss pg1 in the dumpster and start a new project when I get around to starting pg2 just so I don't have people who want to be users |
| 14:08.03 | lalo | heh, I have a crazy idea. |
| 14:08.33 | scanline | oh, pretty screenshot |
| 14:08.36 | scanline | I know what's wrong |
| 14:08.49 | scanline | the PNGs have an alpha channel and you're not blitting with PG_LGOP_ALPHA |
| 14:08.51 | lalo | you could just step down and name someone else the maintainer of pg1 |
| 14:08.56 | lalo | aha! |
| 14:09.06 | scanline | lalo: if you want the job I'd be glad to hand it over :) |
| 14:09.10 | lalo | this explains the "skewed" pngs too? |
| 14:09.29 | TD | how did you get the mouse cursor in the screenshot? |
| 14:09.43 | lalo | I have no problem with that AS LONG AS you promise you will help me figuring things out when I face a problem in a part of the code I don't know ;-) |
| 14:09.51 | scanline | :) |
| 14:10.04 | lalo | TD: dunno, as far as I'm concerned it's a bug ;-) |
| 14:10.19 | lalo | probably XDirectFB misbehaving |
| 14:10.40 | scanline | ooh lalo.. you might be interested in this particular crazy idea of mine |
| 14:10.48 | lalo | tell me :-) |
| 14:10.52 | TD | ah |
| 14:10.56 | scanline | it's a BZFlag python module :) |
| 14:11.40 | scanline | it started out as just an experiment to see how easy it would be to do a bzflag-compatible network layer in python, but in the week or so it's been alive it's started to evolve into something really cool |
| 14:12.12 | Xentac | scanline: you crazy guys and your crazy abilities to build really cool stuff really quickly |
| 14:12.27 | scanline | it has the beginnings of a bzflag client and server, it has different UIs you can hook up to it, including a 3D view using PyOpenGL |
| 14:12.51 | scanline | captain_proton is going to build a bzflag world editor with it, experimenting with a 100% 3D user interface |
| 14:13.05 | scanline | but it's amazing how clean the code can be in python :) |
| 14:13.33 | scanline | it's maybe 8000 lines so far, and implements a big chunk of what bzflag can do |
| 14:13.39 | TD | it might be useful to show people that python can be used for "real" apps |
| 14:13.48 | scanline | indeed |
| 14:13.50 | TD | lots of people think that for games, large programs etc you need c++ |
| 14:14.01 | scanline | I haven't been able to find any 'real app' examples involving python + OpenGL |
| 14:14.29 | lalo | I don't remember one from the top of my head, either |
| 14:14.31 | scanline | and of course it's not as fast as C++, but it's plenty fast enough to be playable |
| 14:14.41 | TD | sure |
| 14:14.47 | scanline | and it's really portable |
| 14:14.48 | TD | developer time is more valuable than cpu time anyway |
| 14:14.53 | TD | at least in free software land |
| 14:15.02 | scanline | I had to change a little of the networking code to make it work on win32, but now it runs on win32, linux, IRIX, and OS X |
| 14:15.18 | TD | IRIX? |
| 14:15.23 | TD | you tested it on irix? |
| 14:15.23 | scanline | yep |
| 14:15.35 | TD | heh |
| 14:15.37 | TD | it goes full circle |
| 14:15.50 | scanline | the building where captain_proton and I work has a big visualization-dealybob with an Onyx |
| 14:16.08 | lalo | particularly I don't find bzflag very interesting, but overall the project sounds... hmm... like it could have uses ;-) |
| 14:16.17 | scanline | http://navi.picogui.org/images/bzflag/ |
| 14:16.25 | TD | nice |
| 14:16.26 | scanline | there are a few pretty cool reusable components in it too |
| 14:16.44 | scanline | the networking code is pretty nice, and the 3D engine that's starting to emerge is very cute |
| 14:17.21 | lalo | aha, today XDirectFB is cooperative (the set-opacity keybindings work) |
| 14:18.05 | scanline | right now I'm writing a somewhat nontraditional parser for a subset of VRML, for the model format |
| 14:18.48 | scanline | lalo: I discovered that python's new lexical scoping is quite fun to abuse :) |
| 14:19.39 | lalo | it is. :-) |
| 14:20.04 | lalo | of course you should also experiment with abusing descriptors and the boundmethod object |
| 14:20.11 | lalo | for completeness ;-) |
| 14:20.16 | scanline | hehe |
| 14:20.36 | scanline | well, I might end up doing someting abusive to the boundmethod object for pybzflag's event system |
| 14:20.48 | TD | ahhh. cvs gnu emacs is so sweet. one of my pet bugs has been fixed :) |
| 14:21.03 | scanline | I have this callable class that transparently wraps functions and lets you attach observers to them.. but there's still no good way to detach them semi-automatically |
| 14:24.30 | lalo | if a png does *not* have an alpha channel and I use LGOP_ALPHA, will something bad happen? |
| 14:25.08 | scanline | I don't remember off the top of my head. I think it will render wrong but not crash |
| 14:25.33 | lalo | hmm |
| 14:25.41 | lalo | so how do I detect whether it has an alpha channel? |
| 14:26.07 | scanline | I don't think there's a way to from the client side |
| 14:26.48 | lalo | cool. |
| 14:27.16 | scanline | heh |
| 14:27.20 | lalo | looks like the bitmap object has a "has_alpha" attribute, where is it set? |
| 14:27.23 | lalo | in the loader? |
| 14:27.40 | lalo | but in that case, it should have rendered correctly in the menuitems on the left |
| 14:27.49 | scanline | yes.. I think it's actually a color format flag |
| 14:33.18 | lalo | oh |
| 14:33.31 | lalo | has_alpha is in the button - it reads from a colorflag |
| 14:36.31 | lalo | how odd |
| 14:36.42 | lalo | this code in button.c should have done the right thing automagically :-/ |
| 15:29.36 | lalo | ok, that settles it |
| 15:29.43 | lalo | it's the png loader which is borken |
| 15:29.56 | lalo | imgview displays the same images wrong |
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| 21:17.30 | lalo | ibot: seen lalo |
| 21:17.31 | | lalo is currently on #picogui (7h 19m 31s). Has said a total of 43 messages. Is idling for 1s |
| 21:17.36 | lalo | is freenode still there? |
| 21:17.45 | lalo | ah, it is. cool. |
| 21:17.55 | lalo | this channel sometimes scares me :-) |
| 21:17.58 | file | ... |
| 21:19.49 | lalo | hi file :-) |
| 21:22.28 | file | hiya |
| 21:38.48 | TD | here's a fascinating piece of trivia for you all |
| 21:39.01 | TD | between the glibc in debian stable and red hat 9, 110 new symbols were introduced |
| 21:39.10 | TD | s/symbols/symbols or newer versions/ |
| 21:39.34 | njs | s/fascinating// ;-) |
| 21:39.35 | kergoth | you know, more libraries should use symbol versioning |
| 21:39.54 | prot-work | njs: hehe |
| 21:57.43 | TD | not yet |
| 21:57.45 | TD | it's a pita |
| 22:00.47 | lalo | http://sourceforge.net/projects/viagra/ |
| 22:00.47 | lalo | rotfl |
| 22:05.39 | gonkulator | lalo: you should hang out in #tacobeam too :) |
| 22:05.51 | lalo | probably :-) |
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| 23:49.40 | *** join/#picogui Quatre (~Quatre@bgp01110667bgs.westln01.mi.comcast.net) |
| 23:50.08 | *** join/#picogui Quater (Quatre@bgp01110667bgs.westln01.mi.comcast.net) |
