irclog2html for #picogui on 20030519

00:35.16*** join/#picogui zak (~noname@home-dhcp4-208.Colorado.EDU)
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01:54.15andybnjs: you're not who I think you are are you?  :-)
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05:18.14merlin262lol
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07:16.20zaknjs: i think andyb thinks you are dr. livingstone, i presume....L)
07:16.23zak:)
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07:26.03peter_morning all
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13:16.22lalogood morning scan
13:24.07filelalo: he once was here, but now is not
13:24.23filescanline is currently catching/on a bus.
13:30.34laloah
13:30.43laloI failed to look at the timestamps :-)
13:30.53laloI saw a join, and reacted to it ;-)
13:37.14fileand how are you lalo?
13:37.27*** join/#picogui balor (~balor@149.157.246.17)
13:58.32laloI'm great
13:58.34lalogood morning balor
14:00.27balorlalo: hey
14:00.35lalohow interesting... the wm seems to fuck up emacs... never seen that before
14:00.50balorlalo: which wm?
14:01.00lalooh... an experiment :-) plwm
14:01.45laloI'm evaluating it
14:08.03fileand your opinion so far?
14:10.53laloit fucks up emacs :-P probably by messing with Xresources
14:11.09filesilly wm... emacs is not for it!
14:11.25laloand of course it's not an usable wm... but it's scriptable, so it's probably a better start than ion
14:11.31laloI'll try it for a few days
14:11.42laloit's fun to have a wm I can poke
14:12.37fileI use metacity... it's what came with Gnome
14:13.50laloI know it... it's a very minimal wm
14:14.02laloit's more or less the opposite of what I want :-)
14:14.20fileit works for me :)
14:14.38lalosure
14:14.43laloit works for most people
14:14.46filemost times.
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14:35.34*** join/#picogui lalo (~lalo@200.203.12.232)
14:36.22lalospiffiness.
14:38.29lalointerestingly enough, now the emacs bug disappeared
14:39.06filelalo: strange, but goo
14:39.15filegood.
14:39.33lalothis setup is awesome!
14:39.44fileshould I try plwm sometime?
14:41.06laloit depends
14:41.24lalodo you love python? do you have an urge to hack together your own window manager that you can bend to your will?
14:41.44fileno and no :)
14:42.04lalothen no :-)
14:42.08fileokey dokey
14:43.00laloseriously, plwm is not for being productive... is for relieving stress by experimenting with tweaking the wm to do things *your way* ;-)
14:43.15lalodid I just say "seriously"? scratch that
14:44.01laloOTOH
14:44.23laloon second thought... if you absolutely hate the mouse, plwm *may* be a better fit than ion or ratpoison
14:44.33laloI like the way it uses the keypad
14:44.59filenifty
14:46.49filelalo: role playing time - pretend you're a disgruntled ADSL internet installer/technician coming to visit my house because of my lousy speeds
14:47.13filelalo: and I ask you, "can you replace my ADSL Modem with a real ADSL Router like a mainstreet 27020?" - what would you say?
14:47.51lalothat would depend on company policy
14:48.12lalohere in Brazil I've seen companies that allow you to do that, and others that don't
14:48.25filebleh
14:48.28lalospecially if they lease the modem
14:48.41filewell they said my modem may be defective and need to be replaced...
14:49.04laloyeah
14:49.17lalothat means you get to give them more money, not that you get to choose a new modem ;-)
14:49.24laloI mean, usually
14:49.29filethe way it works is as long as I have service, I have a modem from them - when it's done, I give it back
14:49.55lalowell... then it's leased, they probably won't allow you to switch
14:50.07laloon the excuse that "they can't support you if you don't use their modem"
14:50.07filebah
14:50.16filelalo: they offer 4 modems
14:50.21filewell, 5
14:50.29laloit's a lame excuse, I know... but it's what I'm used to hear
14:50.46filethe Mainstreet Express for old ADSL users, the Cisco, 3Com, Efficient Networks, and Comtrend for new ADSL users
14:50.50lalobut it won't hurt to ask, I think.
14:51.32filelalo: if they even show at all, last time they were supposed to come - back they figured out I was on a bad port
14:51.46fileer but they
14:53.48filelalo: I look forward to seeing if the technician is going to try to use my computer... probably never even seen Linux :)
14:54.20laloheh
14:54.34laloa friend of mine sent his linux box to be fixed
14:55.06lalothe technician formatted his hard disk, on the excuse that "the windows CD reported the disk had errors"
14:55.15fileomg
14:55.28filethat must have sucked
14:55.44laloever since when I must send mine anywhere, I keep my HD in my office drawer, locked. ;-)
14:57.35filesmart plan
14:58.51fileI'll brb
14:59.01filegoing to reset ADSL Modem to see if they switched my port at the network office
15:02.38*** join/#picogui file (intranet@mctn1-2132.nb.aliant.net)
15:02.41filethat was a big mistake
15:02.57filespeed is down to 192Kbps down
15:09.12filelalo: my thoughts exactly
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15:18.58fileyou're making me hungry
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16:04.08zakscan[screen]: howdy
16:04.35gonk{work}hi scan[screen]
16:05.06zakscan[screen]: if you decide you are bored and want company, let me know, i have nothing to do until the meeting....well visit the wet room...but yea..
16:05.33scan[screen]hi
16:05.39scan[screen]I'm ing boulder
16:05.42scan[screen]er, in
16:05.51zakje sais
16:05.53scan[screen]so you're going to the same meeting?
16:05.58zakthat's why i offered company
16:06.03zakscan[screen]: i don't know
16:06.11zakspace grant general meeting?
16:06.13scan[screen]:)
16:06.23scan[screen]yeah, lemme pull up the email and see what they called it exactly
16:06.39zakannoying
16:06.42zakoh well
16:07.14zak?
16:07.24gonk{work}my mom approved the LAN party provided we clean up the house after
16:07.26scan[screen]it's "the first general meeting for Citizen Explorer"
16:07.29scan[screen]w00t
16:07.34zakhmmm
16:07.42zaki don't know which project i am on...
16:07.46zakmight be that one
16:07.54zaki suppose i should ride up and find out
16:08.09scan[screen]gonk{work}: apple super happy web doesn't display navi.picogui.org quite right.. I used their bug button =)
16:08.09zakbut if i didn't get an email, prolly demosat
16:09.00zakcya in a bit
16:09.06scan[screen]okey
16:09.10scan[screen]I'm in the ECEN lobby
16:09.13lalohi scan[screen]
16:09.21zakok
16:09.28scan[screen]hi lalo
16:10.44laloscan[screen]: I'm so happy :-)
16:10.50scan[screen]oh?
16:10.51laloI coded on Om for two nights
16:10.55scan[screen]yay!
16:11.16lalowhich doesn't mean I wrote code guaranteed not to be thrown away ;-) but it feels nice
16:11.24laloand it's starting to resemble something.
16:11.33filea piece of pie?
16:16.40gonk{work}zak: will you come to the LAN party?
16:18.36laloscan[screen]: one of these nights I want to talk about capabilities... I don't have the slightest idea where they fit in this code :-)
16:18.51scan[screen]ok, shouldn't be too complex
16:19.19scan[screen]capabilities are fundamentally really simple, they just take some design foresight to use correctly
16:21.16laloI'm convinced they're the right way to go... just don't know where to stick them.
16:22.01scan[screen]every object can optionally have a capability ID attached to it, and that capability ID is the only way to refer to an object across address space boundaries
16:22.46scan[screen]the ID is long enough to be for all practical purposes unguessable, so posessing that ID gives you access to the services that object provides
16:23.18scan[screen]if you want to give out access to only a subset of the methods in an object, you make a proxy object and give out a capability for that
16:24.26laloyeah
16:24.51laloI know what a capability is :-) I just have to brainstorm to find out where it fits with the design
16:25.00scan[screen]ah
16:25.04lalonot as much how to implement it, as where to implement it
16:25.36lalobut not now, you're "mobile" and I have to work :-)
16:25.48scan[screen]have fun :)
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16:50.47scan[screen]oh, neat... OS X comes with python
16:51.18scan[screen]guess windows and commercial UNIXes are the only platforms what will have to install anything at all to run pgbuild :)
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17:00.30laloanyone is particularly good at trig?
17:01.00gonkulatorlalo: not me :)
17:01.22laloI believe I have till nightfall to discover how to rotate a pair of coordinates relative to a center :-)
17:03.12lalonow... the sine of this times the cosine of that...
17:03.18laloAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUGH
17:03.47scan[screen]you should use quaternions :)
17:04.43laloscan[screen]:  O.O
17:05.15laloroasted or raw?
17:05.25scan[screen]though I suppose this is 2D rather than 3D...
17:05.27scan[screen]=)
17:05.35laloyes, 2D
17:05.51laloin fact I need to add rotation to that arc algorythm I added to dvbl
17:06.22laloI wish I still remembered what *is* a cosine to begin with
17:07.20Xentacsoh cah toa
17:07.41Xentaccosine is adjacent over hypontenuse (sp)
17:07.59laloaaaaaaah
17:08.03laloyes, that rings familiar
17:08.06lalothaks :-)
17:08.10Xentachehehe
17:08.12Xentacno problem
17:08.18Xentacyou made me remember too ;o)
17:08.31lalo(doesn't yet tell me how to rotate this crap - but I think I'm on the path)
17:08.49scan[screen]could use a 2x2 matrix
17:08.54scan[screen]have fun :)
17:10.16lalo[out]scan[screen]: probably... but the algo is already trigonometric, so I believe it will be faster to just poke the correct function
17:25.06file[living_roomthe person from Aliant just called... going to come in an hour
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18:16.03njscalculating a 2x2 rotation matrix and then multiplying by it is exactly the same as just doing the trig, really.
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18:39.01lalo*sigh*
18:39.31gonk{work}lalo: trying to figure trig stuff out?
18:49.26laloyes
18:49.54laloisn't it sweet? all I have to do is multiply it by a complex number I can infer from the sine and cosine of the angle I want to rotate
18:50.20lalonow pretend for a minute that is a simple thing ;-)
18:55.03lalohmm
18:55.15laloOTOH looks like libm has a function to do that for me
18:57.53njsit is pretty simple
18:58.11njsthe complex number is cos(theta) + i*sin(theta)
18:58.19laloyes
18:58.40lalobut can I trust the C compiler to support complex numbers?  Or should I do the math myself?
18:58.48lalowhat is the definition of complex multiplication again?
18:59.05njsjust like normal multiplication, except you have to remember i^2 = -1.
18:59.13njsif your original vector is x, y
18:59.52njsthen new_x = cos(t)*x - sin(t)*y, new_y = cos(t)*y+sin(t)*x
19:00.48njs(it's possible I dropped a sign somewhere, but I think that's right)
19:01.07laloyou're my hero :-D
19:01.13njstoo simple to get non-portable over :-)
19:01.52laloand since t is constant over the lifetime of the loop, I can store sin(t) and cos(t) to save computation
19:03.31njsglad I could help :-)
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20:33.09gonkulatorXentac: have fun
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