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| 01:57.32 | *** topic/#picogui is http://picogui.org || If nobody here answers your question, try the pgui-devel mailing list || http://picogui.org/Wiki/DotPlan || PicoGUI 0.45 "Taco of Doom" released! |
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| 02:00.54 | *** topic/#picogui is http://picogui.org || If nobody here answers your question, try the pgui-devel mailing list || http://picogui.org/Wiki/DotPlan || PicoGUI 0.45 "Taco of Doom" released! |
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| 13:40.59 | peter | hi, can anyone help with a make install prob of pgserver and openzaurus ? |
| 13:44.02 | scanline | maybe |
| 13:44.50 | peter | pg server compiles fines (using arm-cross compiler)....when doing make install the following error comes up: |
| 13:45.28 | peter | /bin/sh ./mkinstalldirs /home/peter/buildroot-neu/buildroot-oz/output/staging/usr/lib |
| 13:45.28 | peter | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:45.28 | peter | ./libtool: ./libtool: File or Directory not found |
| 13:45.47 | peter | any ideas regarding this? |
| 13:45.57 | scanline | looks like you don't have libtool? |
| 13:46.38 | peter | a "i386" libtool is available.... in the path ... |
| 13:46.54 | scanline | hmm |
| 13:47.00 | scanline | I don't know the details of how auto* uses libtool |
| 13:47.25 | peter | i tried modifying the makefile that he does not call ./libtoll but libtool instead.... then he finds libtool but comes up with... |
| 13:48.22 | peter | /bin/sh libtool --mode=install /usr/bin/install -c libpgserver.la /home/peter/buildroot-neu/buildroot-oz/output/staging/usr/lib/libpgserver.la |
| 13:48.22 | peter | /usr/bin/install -c .libs/libpgserver.lai /home/peter/buildroot-neu/buildroot-oz/output/staging/usr/lib/libpgserver.la |
| 13:48.22 | peter | /usr/bin/install: cannot stat `.libs/libpgserver.lai': No such file or directory |
| 13:48.42 | scanline | try posting this on the mailing list |
| 13:49.27 | peter | i don`t know where he get`s libpgserver.lai from ? ... |
| 13:50.48 | peter | currently i`m a little bit carefully with posting to the mialinglist, because i think i did that too much in the last couple of days..... i guess some folks where kind of pissed of....:(.... |
| 13:52.00 | scanline | hmm.. you're Peter Graf? |
| 13:52.22 | peter | ...peter hermsdorf....... |
| 13:52.25 | scanline | ah |
| 13:52.48 | scanline | I don't see anything on the list from you |
| 13:53.06 | peter | openzaurus-devel .... |
| 13:53.08 | scanline | oh |
| 13:53.11 | scanline | I was thinking about pgui-devel |
| 13:53.37 | peter | ....i think many of the guys are in both list....dunno |
| 13:54.15 | scanline | I really doubt you'd find anyone that knows much about picogui on openzaurus-devel, though you might find some auto* and libtool gurus |
| 13:55.26 | peter | ....maybe i`m gonne try pgui-devel....:). maybe someone has openzaurus running with picogui..... |
| 13:55.41 | scanline | I've used picogui in openzaurus many times, just not recently |
| 13:56.05 | peter | mhm.... |
| 13:59.40 | peter | read some about libtool. libtool is a script that gets genereated in the sourcetree.... so thatswhy make calles ./libtool ... on the other hand that might mean that it doesn`t gets generated..... |
| 14:48.29 | *** join/#picogui lalo[out1 (~lalo@200.203.12.232) |
| 14:51.11 | lalo[out1 | > What would you think about cancelling the bugfix release, I make the new build system (for pg1 and pg2) my priority, and you work on Om? |
| 14:52.16 | scanline | hi lalo, that looks familiar :) |
| 14:52.48 | lalo | :-) |
| 14:53.02 | lalo | what I want to do is do Om-related stuff in my vacation |
| 14:53.11 | lalo | but I still have a few weeks to lend you a hand before that |
| 14:53.42 | lalo | come to think of it, switching the build system would likely fix most show-stoppers already |
| 14:54.07 | scanline | I just don't really have any motivation to fix a bunch of bugs, but I would like to write a new build system |
| 14:54.14 | scanline | mainly because the new build system will be usable in pg2 also |
| 14:54.17 | lalo | so perhaps it's reasonable to switch the plans for .46 and .47 |
| 14:54.26 | scanline | but it will also stop people from asking me compiling questions as often :) |
| 14:54.54 | peter | :) |
| 14:55.02 | lalo | what *I* would like to see fixed are the rendering engine glitches, specially the one where apps don't show up :-) |
| 14:55.14 | Xentac | scanline: what? you don't /like/ it when people ask you compiling questions?!? |
| 14:55.38 | scanline | heheh |
| 14:56.10 | lalo | good point, you'd figure someone who uses autoconf likes compilation questions ;-) |
| 14:56.18 | scanline | lalo: I'm pretty sure that's an issue with the layout engine flags not getting set right. I wanted to add some extra debugging that would allow us to see where which flags get set |
| 14:57.05 | lalo | also - would it be practical for the rendering engine to, before any redraw, paint the portion of the background widget corresponding to that area? |
| 14:57.12 | lalo | perhaps as a compile-time option |
| 14:57.36 | lalo | unless I'm mad, that would fix the lucid glitches and also allow the LCARS theme to become one notch less ugly |
| 14:57.53 | scanline | that's doable, but won't solve all the problems |
| 14:57.59 | lalo | not all, but some |
| 14:58.15 | lalo | what solves all problems, including world hunger and George W. Bush, is pg2 ;-) |
| 14:58.20 | scanline | there are several such kludges I could do to the current rendering engine... but it's still a very broken design |
| 14:58.28 | scanline | =) |
| 14:59.23 | lalo | this is a very unimportant side-effect, but it would also make lucid faster, I think |
| 14:59.38 | scanline | The thing that would help the current rendering engine the most is proper clipping region support |
| 14:59.49 | scanline | but that would be more work than I'd like to spend on the current engine :) |
| 14:59.52 | scanline | hmm |
| 15:00.26 | scanline | would be nice if the rendering engine and video driver code from pg2 could be used in pg1 |
| 15:01.00 | scanline | won't know how possible that is until we work out the details of pg2's rendering and layout |
| 15:01.09 | lalo | yup |
| 15:01.24 | lalo | right now all I have to say is - it would be nice if it rained chocolate. |
| 15:01.28 | lalo | ;-) |
| 15:01.31 | scanline | :) |
| 15:01.59 | lalo | hmm curry. |
| 15:02.03 | Xentac | http://www.ucomics.com/foxtrot/ |
| 15:02.36 | lalo | so, are we done with the C/C++ debate? |
| 15:02.41 | scanline | lalo: captain_proton, lurgyman, darth_mall, zak, and I usually cook on Fridays.. I set up plone on navi to keep track of recipes :) |
| 15:03.00 | lalo | hahaha... it's a very noble use for it! |
| 15:03.16 | scanline | lalo: guess so. I'd still like to use C++, but if C improves our portability noticeably even in a year or two, C it is |
| 15:04.01 | scanline | Xentac: :) |
| 15:04.04 | scanline | http://navi.picogui.org:9673/site/Recipes/ |
| 15:04.11 | lalo | after my dreadful experience with snow, I'd be wary of C++ too |
| 15:04.14 | lalo | besides |
| 15:04.35 | scanline | well, it will be ugly having to do platform-specific tricks to make C++ generate small binaries |
| 15:04.44 | lalo | if you're to dynamically link to objects compiled with C++, they must have been compiled with the same compiler |
| 15:04.46 | scanline | another good argument for C... |
| 15:04.47 | lalo | that sucks |
| 15:05.23 | scanline | lalo: true, but most of the time all the picogui modules except the clients will be statically linked |
| 15:05.25 | lalo | and finally - C++ exceptions are a small gain, for IPC calls we would still have to capture them and somehow emulate them over the wire |
| 15:05.58 | scanline | classes would be nice, but we can get the same functionality out of a strict naming convention |
| 15:21.28 | lalo | well |
| 15:21.53 | lalo | the music stopped at the same time as my mail and webcomics, that is probably a signal from the gods to go get coffee |
| 15:22.05 | lalo | killall -GOGETCOFFEE lalo |
| 15:23.07 | scanline | :) |
| 15:23.36 | lalo | killall -CONT lalo |
| 15:24.57 | lalo | eeep |
| 15:25.01 | lalo | zettai is now orange |
| 15:26.25 | scanline | ha |
| 15:27.54 | scanline | hmm |
| 15:28.21 | scanline | it's nice of Bitstream to provide Vera, but IMHO it doesn't look as good as the fonts that come with OpenOffice |
| 15:29.04 | lalo | hmm |
| 15:29.12 | lalo | according to http://www.zettai.net/ZopeHosting/ZopeProducts we have CollectorNG |
| 15:29.30 | scanline | is there a good way to transition collector entries? |
| 15:29.46 | lalo | what do you mean? |
| 15:30.16 | scanline | does CollectorNG work with items entered into a regular collector, or do we have to convert them somehow? |
| 15:31.26 | lalo | there will have to be a minimal migration, yes |
| 15:31.34 | lalo | if only to change the classes of the objects :-) |
| 15:31.45 | lalo | but I can automate that with a script, tonight or tomorro |
| 15:31.46 | lalo | w |
| 15:31.55 | scanline | neat |
| 15:32.11 | scanline | ooh... Vera Sans looks a lot better at small sizes than Vera Serif |
| 15:32.41 | lalo | CollectorNG allows you to add arbitrary new properties to an issue |
| 15:32.54 | scanline | yay |
| 15:33.11 | scanline | mmm.. Vera Sans looks good |
| 15:33.14 | lalo | and issues can have dependencies |
| 15:40.31 | kergoth | mmm vera |
| 15:40.41 | kergoth | we're using it as default in opie as well nowadays |
| 15:40.50 | scanline | yeah, that's what made me remember it |
| 15:41.11 | scanline | I was really excited when I heard about the release, but didn't notice when they actually put files online |
| 15:41.39 | scanline | Vera Sans is sweet, and the whole Vera package is about half the size of the fonts we've been using |
| 15:43.42 | scanline | lalo[work]: if we're swapping 0.46 and 0.47, that means we should try to switch to Subversion or arch ASAP |
| 15:47.40 | lalo[work] | .46 was subversion/arch, and .47 was build system, no? Or is it the other way around? |
| 15:48.09 | lalo[work] | anyway |
| 15:48.37 | lalo[work] | it probably makes technical sense to switch the build system first, because then it's easier to adapt it to the new directory layout... I think |
| 15:48.38 | scanline | the plan was 0.46 for bugfixes, then we stick the current code into svn/arch right away, reorganize things to our liking, and start the new build system for a 0.47 release |
| 15:48.48 | lalo[work] | ah, ok |
| 15:49.09 | scanline | I'd rather swap the layout first, so we can design the build system at a level above pgserver, cli_*, and apps |
| 15:49.21 | lalo[work] | I thought the text "switch to svn" was part of the .46 entry :-) |
| 15:49.29 | scanline | ah :) |
| 15:51.16 | lalo[work] | so how do you feel about quickly evaluating arch again? |
| 15:51.45 | scanline | sure |
| 15:51.58 | lalo[work] | it seems to me that if the major problem of arch is the command line, and since it's already a soup of scripts, we can probably write wrappers that automate the stuff we do a lot |
| 15:52.10 | lalo[work] | perhaps even embed it in the new build sytem |
| 15:52.27 | scanline | hmm... |
| 15:52.32 | scanline | that's a good point |
| 15:52.39 | lalo[work] | hmm, embedding in the build system means we would be able to migrate again almost transparently later, if need arises |
| 15:53.09 | lalo[work] | say, if eva becomes usable, or the Arch maintainers are finally declared legally insane. |
| 15:53.15 | scanline | hehe |
| 15:53.23 | scanline | what parts of arch do you like better than svn? |
| 15:53.56 | lalo[work] | 1. users (even developers) who want to track our source but don't want to install arch, don't need to. In contrast, svn is a bitch to install. |
| 15:54.21 | lalo[work] | 2. it integrates the release system - as it's based on the release tarballs for versioning |
| 15:54.47 | lalo[work] | 3. easy branching and merging |
| 15:55.03 | lalo[work] | altough svn does that too, but arch is still marginally superior |
| 15:55.38 | scanline | hmm |
| 15:55.43 | lalo[work] | it's cool that I can host my own branch if I don't have commit access, and in svn I can't |
| 15:55.58 | lalo[work] | that's probably more relevant for pg2 than 1 |
| 15:56.02 | scanline | that's one of the things that's cool about bitkeeper :) |
| 15:56.09 | scanline | but of course bk is out of the question |
| 15:56.17 | lalo[work] | yes |
| 15:56.26 | lalo[work] | I like to keep my bits free, thank you very much ;-) |
| 15:56.32 | scanline | indeed |
| 15:57.04 | kergoth | hey! i like my really functional yet not so free bits |
| 15:57.06 | kergoth | :P |
| 15:58.30 | lalo[work] | besides |
| 15:58.42 | lalo[work] | learning arch command lines is a very good magical training |
| 15:58.48 | lalo[work] | it should be named Archane ;-) |
| 15:58.54 | scanline | ha |
| 15:59.21 | scanline | I definitely like svn's user friendliness |
| 15:59.40 | lalo[work] | yes, but the point is we can emulate it |
| 16:00.07 | lalo[work] | I also like arch's primitive "component" architecture... if we later need stuff it can't do, we can probably wire it up to do it |
| 16:00.11 | scanline | but if arch doesn't have any advantages over svn that we'll actually need, why bother emulating? |
| 16:00.36 | lalo[work] | like, it isn't unconceivable to wire arch to accept submissions via email |
| 16:02.15 | lalo[work] | it isn't unconceivable for svn either ;-) only a bit harder |
| 16:02.27 | scanline | yeah |
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| 16:04.02 | lalo[work] | which could hook into the spiffy bug/feature/documentation tracker thingie I stuck into om |
| 16:08.17 | lalo[work] | hmm |
| 16:08.24 | lalo[work] | I seem to have a build of svn here |
| 16:11.41 | captain_proton | vera? |
| 16:11.51 | scanline | the typeface Bitstream donated to Gnome |
| 16:12.11 | scanline | better looking and smaller than the fonts picogui had been using |
| 16:12.39 | captain_proton | ahh |
| 16:21.08 | scanline | there we go |
| 16:21.14 | scanline | finally displaced the April Fools joke |
| 16:21.22 | scanline | whoops, need to publish it... |
| 16:25.01 | scanline | yay |
| 16:29.46 | scanline | http://picogui.org/Screenshots/20020425-vera.png/photo_view <-- figured some pink floyd was appropriate considering the typeface's name |
| 16:30.47 | captain_proton | scanline: you shouldof put the lyrics to "vera" instead |
| 16:31.15 | scanline | yeah, but I like Wish You Were Here better :) |
| 16:31.40 | captain_proton | heh |
| 16:31.53 | lalo[work] | IWish You Vera Here |
| 16:33.04 | lalo[work] | anyone wants a python script that randomically changes the background for gnome2 and pgserver simultaneously? :-) |
| 16:33.21 | scanline | ha |
| 16:33.29 | lalo[work] | it works if you have gnome2 but no pgserver running but I haven't tested it with pgserver and no gnome2 |
| 16:33.50 | scanline | I have no gnome2, but then I have other special background needs |
| 16:34.12 | lalo[work] | I did it as an exercise to learn gconf-python |
| 16:34.35 | lalo[work] | it's cool how gconf allows you to poke the ribs of other apps while they are running |
| 16:34.56 | captain_proton | gconf is beautiful |
| 16:35.00 | captain_proton | its like the registry, but good |
| 16:35.12 | scanline | using Om for configuration should be even cooler :) |
| 16:35.20 | lalo[work] | then again Xt did that 15 years ago ;-) |
| 16:35.28 | scanline | (: |
| 16:35.56 | captain_proton | well true |
| 16:36.04 | lalo[work] | I used to find it pretty fun to set backgrounds on individual Xaw widgets using imagemagick |
| 16:36.05 | captain_proton | but gconf is probably the most flexible of all i've seen |
| 16:36.23 | lalo[work] | pasted the face of my gf all over xpat2 |
| 16:36.39 | captain_proton | like being able to very easily have configuration stored in a database and shared among lots of machines |
| 16:37.22 | lalo[work] | so, where is vera? I'm supposed to already have it installed? |
| 16:37.35 | scanline | it's in the fonts directory now, instead of the miscellaneous junk |
| 16:37.55 | scanline | also modified the documentation and source in pgserver to use vera's font names as defaults |
| 16:38.06 | lalo[work] | really? I don't see it |
| 16:38.35 | scanline | ViewCVS shows it |
| 16:38.57 | lalo[work] | aha |
| 16:39.07 | lalo[work] | I'm looking in the wrong place |
| 16:39.14 | lalo[work] | .../fonts not .../pgserver/fonts |
| 16:39.27 | scanline | ah, yep |
| 16:39.46 | scanline | it's cool... they look nice, and the whole package is about 600k rather than 1MB |
| 16:40.52 | lalo[work] | freetype should work on fb? |
| 16:41.32 | scanline | yep |
| 16:41.48 | lalo[work] | what's the downside? slower? more ram? |
| 16:41.59 | scanline | mostly more ram |
| 16:42.19 | scanline | there's a glyph cache, so it shouldn't be much slower |
| 16:42.43 | lalo[work] | ah, what the hell, what do I care about the vr3. If it runs, fine, if it doesn't, fine |
| 16:42.53 | lalo[work] | it doesn't run what I need anyway |
| 16:43.28 | lalo[work] | I need a Z :-/ |
| 16:43.44 | captain_proton | everyone needs a Z |
| 16:44.04 | lalo[work] | probably |
| 16:44.13 | captain_proton | scanline: i demand screen-like attach/detach for picogui apps! NOW! |
| 16:44.15 | captain_proton | =) |
| 16:44.23 | scanline | bah |
| 16:44.50 | lalo[work] | captain_proton: I have a design for that which could work |
| 16:45.03 | scanline | lalo[work]: but not for pg1? |
| 16:45.09 | lalo[work] | would be more vnc-like than screen-like but it's doable |
| 16:45.37 | lalo[work] | however, I prefer to work on Om and pg2 unless you're going to back your demand with a bribe ;-) do you have a Z to spare? |
| 16:45.40 | lalo[work] | (he he he) |
| 16:45.43 | scanline | you'd need to serialize all the server-side state, which would be a mess with pg1 |
| 16:45.58 | lalo[work] | damn |
| 16:46.01 | scanline | lalo[work]: maybe we should make it policy that we only work on pg1 for money ;) |
| 16:46.08 | lalo[work] | prpplague turned me into a merc |
| 16:46.32 | lalo[work] | burn in hell prpplague! |
| 16:46.37 | lalo[work] | but send me my Z first :-P |
| 16:46.51 | lalo[work] | oh wait, I don't believe in hell. Scratch that. |
| 16:47.12 | scanline | how about a barbeque with liquid oxygen instead? |
| 16:48.27 | *** join/#picogui prae (~prae@sherpadown.net) |
| 16:48.48 | lalo[work] | captain_proton: in fact, you *can* have attach/detach right now if you can spare the cpu |
| 16:49.01 | lalo[work] | just run pgserver with vnc backend |
| 16:50.49 | scanline | hehe |
| 16:50.50 | carpman{mayuka} | *ding* |
| 16:51.09 | scanline | hmm.. I need to find a minimally insane way to implement this stuff eForth has been wanting me to do for a week or so |
| 16:51.47 | captain_proton | lalo[work]: i mean with the X11 driver ;) |
| 16:51.56 | captain_proton | or even better, switching between drivers |
| 16:52.02 | scanline | or... rootless VNC! |
| 16:52.08 | lalo[work] | captain_proton: that's a gratuitous requirement :-) |
| 16:52.15 | captain_proton | =) |
| 16:52.39 | lalo[work] | if you're using the vnc driver you can see it in x11 or directfb or windoze or MacOS |
| 16:52.43 | scanline | eForth wants the textbox widget to have escape sequences that define composite characters inline with normal characters |
| 16:52.50 | lalo[work] | all at the same time |
| 16:53.25 | lalo[work] | scanline: that's braindamaged, they should use unicode for that |
| 16:53.32 | scanline | lalo[work]: they are using unicode |
| 16:53.39 | lalo[work] | that's my point |
| 16:53.50 | scanline | yeah... I know it's broke and evil |
| 16:53.55 | scanline | but if I implement it, they pay me :) |
| 16:54.10 | lalo[work] | they're already using unicode, so they should just use the existing compositing capabilities of unicode |
| 16:54.21 | scanline | unless I find some magically clean way to do it, I'll probably make a compile-time option for the textbox widget |
| 16:54.32 | scanline | and give them a patch rather than committing it |
| 16:55.11 | lalo[work] | can't you ask them if supporting real unicode compositing isn't enough? perhaps they say ok, perhaps they even say it's better |
| 16:55.28 | scanline | lalo[work]: hmm.. the codes they're using are part of the application-specific area of Unicode, but I haven't looked at the real compositing characters yet |
| 16:55.30 | lalo[work] | and you get an end result that's more generally useful |
| 16:55.33 | scanline | hmm |
| 16:55.55 | scanline | I'll go look at the spec right now, but I doubt I'll find a way to do it that's compatible with both Unicode and their font engine |
| 16:56.23 | lalo[work] | I think adding escape sequences to the textbox is evil in principle :-) unless it's a "format" |
| 16:56.35 | scanline | but they mentioned something about paying me to rewrite their font engine later.. so I could stick to standards then |
| 16:56.35 | scanline | brb |
| 16:56.41 | lalo[work] | and if you do it in proper unicode fashion, it affects not only textbox but all widgets |
| 16:56.45 | lalo[work] | they get added benefit |
| 16:57.02 | scanline | lalo[work]: yeah.. thought about using a format, but then you'd have to do something evil to pass the composed characters to the font engine |
| 16:57.34 | scanline | well, lunchytime |
| 16:57.45 | lalo[work] | have a nice one :-) |
| 16:58.07 | scanline | thanks, be back later :) |
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| 17:25.59 | lalo[work] | the arch (not arch-landry) ebuild is up-to-date |
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| 18:16.20 | scanline | Bah.. they say Unicode 4.0.0 is available, but only 3 chapters are actually published |
| 18:16.39 | scanline | er.. one chapter, an appendix, and a table of contents |
| 18:16.40 | scanline | bah |
| 18:45.24 | scanline | hmm, the unicode spec serves as a neat little crash course on east-asian scripts |
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| 18:53.07 | scanline | hi lalo[work] |
| 18:53.57 | scanline | the ideographic descriptions in section 10.1 of the Unicode standard are almost exactly what eForth wants |
| 18:57.22 | lalo[work] | that was the impression I had |
| 18:58.08 | scanline | the only real difference is that they're using some hexadecimal mess to specify the glyph's positions whereas Unicode uses a few specialized characters |
| 18:59.01 | lalo[work] | so essentially your job is to tell them, "look here, there is already a nifty standard way to do what you want, easier and more powerful" |
| 18:59.42 | scanline | yep |
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| 19:10.42 | lalo[work] | we need a release named apple-monkey-carburator |
| 19:11.08 | lalo[work] | would that get us sued? |
| 19:12.19 | scanline | nah :) |
| 19:12.24 | scanline | that'd be great |
| 19:12.49 | scanline | after all, Doom is probably patented and we haven't been sued for 0.45 |
| 19:13.02 | lalo[work] | 1. |
| 19:13.33 | lalo[work] | (a lazy way to say "True.") |
| 19:14.03 | carpman{mayuka} | uh-huh |
| 19:17.09 | DevGirl | ack |
| 19:19.51 | captain_proton | eek |
| 19:19.54 | captain_proton | wrong window :) |
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