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| 10:11.59 | kilae | hi, I buy an old freerunner. Can someone tell me what I must update? gsm firmwar, ... |
| 10:12.41 | khorben | GSM firmware + distribution of your choice |
| 10:12.48 | PaulFertser | Exactly |
| 10:13.03 | PaulFertser | kilae: also if you're going to use it for gsm telephony, make sure you have "buzz fix" applied. |
| 10:13.16 | PaulFertser | kilae: when in doubt, search site:wiki.openmoko.org and ask here. |
| 10:13.21 | PaulFertser | kilae: and yeah, welcome :) |
| 10:13.31 | PaulFertser | khorben: hi :) |
| 10:13.35 | khorben | hi :) |
| 10:15.07 | kilae | thx |
| 10:17.17 | kilae | what you think about shr and android on sd? |
| 10:17.28 | asthro | not too bad |
| 10:17.54 | kilae | asthro better idea? |
| 10:19.10 | asthro | I have only SHR(u), and Froyo on SD to show people what can be done on openhardware |
| 10:19.11 | PaulFertser | kilae: many endusers are happy with qtmoko afaik |
| 10:19.43 | asthro | I like QtMoko, but only if you want to use it "out of the box" |
| 10:20.02 | asthro | the "tuning" is a bit tricky |
| 10:20.54 | khorben | and I'm still working on hackable:1 |
| 10:21.58 | PaulFertser | I use Debian with FSO from git and Emacs. |
| 10:22.22 | asthro | H:1... fast and reliable |
| 10:22.32 | HeinervdmWork | kilae: i would suggest that you just try all distris and choose the one that you like the most |
| 10:25.03 | asthro | That is the best things to do |
| 10:25.19 | asthro | and perhaphs you'll manage to install archlinux and keep it ? |
| 10:25.21 | asthro | ;-) |
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| 14:40.09 | sledges | hey how is it going? |
| 14:40.34 | sledges | Are you waiting for GTA04 or maybe experimenting with Moko+BeagleBoard hybrid already? |
| 14:42.58 | PaulFertser | Still using my trusty ol' gta02. |
| 14:47.47 | sledges | great to know, Paul; and hey it's true - a knowhow-bunch of old fixed bugs is way better than a vast amounts of new headaches :) |
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| 14:51.10 | sledges | however I can't wait to get my hands on GTA04's OMAP3530 which is a round-well-tested one, has no glamo-like sluggishness and is faster and bells-and-whistles`fuller board in general |
| 14:51.18 | sledges | +the camera 8)) |
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| 15:11.51 | PaulFertser | sledges: indeed. And has a hopefully sane gsm chipset. |
| 15:11.54 | PBeck | hi |
| 15:12.57 | PaulFertser | sledges: as i already have n900 but can't really use it due to numerous issues which do not allow one to really enjoy it. But the guys are very active and doing an awesome job, so there's a hope. |
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| 15:20.35 | sledges | PaulFertser: yes, a no-brainer GSM stack would finally be great (think of UMTS and HSDPA benefits you'll get with GTA04 !...) |
| 15:21.33 | sledges | PaulFertser: my friend is using N900 here; what issues are you having? Pity Nokia sold its soul to M$ .. and exposed itself as a not really good upkeeper of linux phones farm :( another burden left to an already-busy community out there.. |
| 15:21.42 | sledges | hi PBeck |
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| 15:44.44 | PBeck | hey sledges |
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| 16:43.38 | PaulFertser | sledges: n900 issues? No gsm connectivity, no power management, no gps... |
| 16:45.14 | sledges | strange, PaulFertser, my mate here is using it as his daily phone.. with Maemo on it |
| 16:45.49 | PaulFertser | sledges: my friend does that too. But for me maemo is not an option at all. |
| 16:46.55 | PBeck | why? |
| 16:47.06 | sledges | i see :))) |
| 16:48.44 | PBeck | i think maemo is the best way so far for using a free and usable phone |
| 17:02.37 | sledges | but maybe that's why Paul is on this channel, PBeck :) |
| 17:02.47 | sledges | due to his personal hacky choice |
| 17:04.41 | PaulFertser | PBeck: maemo makes me sick, it's neither free nor cool. |
| 17:05.29 | PBeck | sledges: we are all in this channel, because we want a free phone. But in time we have to use a not so open phone that is usable or we use a freerunner and that is in my opinon not comparable with a n900 and maemo |
| 17:05.55 | PBeck | PaulFertser: oh i think it's cool - why not? |
| 17:06.56 | sledges | PBeck: I think PaulFertser uses some OM distro on his N900 just for a different flavour for the spare-time; that's like voiding warranty - have fun, but don't complain about N900 being useless :) |
| 17:08.22 | sledges | have a good weekend, fellas! |
| 17:08.30 | PaulFertser | PBeck: too many gotchas all around, including random issues with power-eating applications (like Categorise), gtk incompatibilities, general pain of using a non-mainline distro... And anyway i won't trade my emacs+fso for some proprietary shit for gsm telephony. And i need gsm telephony, so i've to carry my fr with me anyway. |
| 17:08.48 | PBeck | sledges: i think he is using shr - but i think it's in a alpha state |
| 17:09.34 | PaulFertser | I'm using Debian |
| 17:09.48 | PaulFertser | And n900 i do not use at all as i have no usecase for it. |
| 17:10.25 | PBeck | PaulFertser: power eating application is possible on the Freerunner too. Which gtk incompatiblities? I had problems with the python maemo gtk bindings. Now i using qt which looks the same way. |
| 17:11.44 | PBeck | PaulFertser: the freerunner was never a option to me. It was slow and it has problems to connect to the gsm and gps network. And then i had the problems that sometimes a call comes not to me ;) |
| 17:12.19 | PaulFertser | PBeck: FR has free telephony stack, n900 doesn't. So n900 is not an option for telephony for me. Everything else is secondary to this main concern. |
| 17:12.59 | PBeck | PaulFertser: the gsm stack is not open. So it's 'only' the binding between UI and gsm stack |
| 17:15.30 | PaulFertser | PBeck: i know that gsm firmware is closed, but it's running on a different chip anyway. And FSO gives me much more control over it than maemo proprietary shit, that's a deal-breaker. |
| 17:15.52 | PBeck | PaulFertser: yes thats true |
| 17:16.19 | PBeck | PaulFertser: we need urgent gta04 and a good ui |
| 17:17.03 | PaulFertser | PBeck: also, involvment in openmoko made me meet plenty of fine people and to enjoy team work and to get some kernel hacking experience etc etc. That's something one never gets in the sick maemo community. |
| 17:17.22 | DocScrutinizer | o/ paul |
| 17:18.05 | PBeck | PaulFertser: oh thats not true |
| 17:18.28 | PBeck | PaulFertser: it gives kernel hacking, too. For example to save power |
| 17:18.39 | PBeck | and i think the MaemoCon is a bit bigger |
| 17:18.57 | PBeck | PaulFertser: so it's not true that the maemo community has no active development |
| 17:20.10 | PBeck | PaulFertser: maemo works on the base of application development, but of course it has to use the closed source api. In Meego it's open |
| 17:20.29 | PaulFertser | PBeck: (maemo kernel hacking) you probably do not know about my involvement in that area... |
| 17:20.42 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: hey man, what's up :) |
| 17:21.41 | PaulFertser | PBeck: i've seen enough of the maemo community on #maemo. And i have no doubt it's not nearly as good as openmoko's. Ask any dev if you think i'm too biased. |
| 17:21.42 | DocScrutinizer | just hi, and running to get milk for coffee |
| 17:24.14 | PBeck | PaulFertser: in which area not good as openmoko? |
| 17:24.49 | DocScrutinizer | let me put it this way: when #maemo == #ubuntu then #openmoko == #gentoo |
| 17:27.07 | PaulFertser | PBeck: maemo "community" is mostly a bunch of clowns writing nonsense on talks.maemo.org, totally incapable of anything real. There're rare developers who are actually sane and cool, but not enough to make a community, and they do only application-level stuff anyway. |
| 17:27.21 | PaulFertser | PBeck: Mer was a reasonable effort but unfortunately too limited too. |
| 17:27.43 | PBeck | DocScrutinizer: it's not the answer on my question ;) We know that it's not as free as openmoko. But for the developer it's not a difference to program for maemo or openmoko when you not use any api |
| 17:29.19 | PaulFertser | PBeck: fyi i implemented a clean patch for maemo kernel to get usb hostmode. So you guess i have some clue about the maemo community. |
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| 17:31.31 | PBeck | PaulFertser: the answer on 19:27 was the right. |
| 17:31.54 | PBeck | PaulFertser: it's right that it gives only application level stuff ;) |
| 17:32.29 | PBeck | PaulFertser: for the normal user as me it's enough to have a debian based linux system that i can all the stuff from my computer on it |
| 17:33.02 | PBeck | PaulFertser: i hope nokia can open the maemo development |
| 17:33.34 | PBeck | i don't know i meego will be do it better |
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| 17:53.41 | DocScrutinizer | nokia opening maemo development - won't happen |
| 17:53.55 | DocScrutinizer | a) there is no more maemo development |
| 17:54.18 | DocScrutinizer | b) nokia never opens up some of the old stuff, nobody knows exactly why |
| 17:54.52 | DocScrutinizer | probably because it's not even their own property, but done by contractors who hold the copyright |
| 17:58.12 | PBeck | DocScrutinizer: so we have to find a new good open phone manufacture |
| 17:58.32 | PBeck | DocScrutinizer: i have heard that LG will step into the meego development |
| 17:59.27 | DocScrutinizer | nokia actually packed all the middleware into an incredible number of either closed or poorly documented and linked to closed daemons and libs, so you in fact can't so anything about maemo basic |
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| 18:04.15 | PBeck | i dont understand the last sentence |
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| 18:21.06 | PaulFertser | PBeck: raster was promising something sane from Samsung. Haven't heard from him for ages... |
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| 18:29.59 | PBeck | PaulFertser: hehe |
| 18:34.23 | khorben | w |
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| 21:57.29 | DocScrutinizer | PaulFertser: there's been a paper with much too much blue blocks (* closed source) |
| 21:57.46 | DocScrutinizer | even maemo is better |
| 22:38.46 | khorben | DocScrutinizer: speaking of? meego? |
| 22:39.06 | DocScrutinizer | nah, that raster samsung linux |
| 22:39.07 | khorben | ah bada maybe |
| 22:39.15 | DocScrutinizer | no, not bada |
| 22:39.20 | khorben | another one? |
| 22:39.21 | khorben | wow |
| 22:39.26 | khorben | how many will it take |
| 22:39.42 | DocScrutinizer | bada is nonsense |
| 22:40.07 | DocScrutinizer | raster said "a hickup" |
| 22:40.43 | khorben | ok |
| 22:40.50 | khorben | so it'll be ditched eventually? |
| 22:41.12 | DocScrutinizer | alas first papers of "raster's linux" also were full of blue (=closed source) blocks in the diagram |
| 22:42.47 | khorben | if you have any pointers to good info I'll be interested |
| 22:42.47 | DocScrutinizer | according to raster Samsung is more like 30 independent big companies competing with each other, rather than one Inc with a common strategy |
| 22:42.57 | khorben | ok |
| 22:43.04 | khorben | and what's your opinion about meego? |
| 22:43.16 | DocScrutinizer | poor fellas |
| 22:43.39 | khorben | intel is still spending quite a lot of money in promoting it |
| 22:43.56 | khorben | LG and AMD have said they're joining |
| 22:43.56 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, for tablets based on intel chips |
| 22:44.07 | khorben | not for telephony then |
| 22:44.26 | khorben | I'll be at their dev event next week in Paris |
| 22:44.33 | khorben | see what they have to say |
| 22:44.47 | DocScrutinizer | dev event of meego next week in paris??? |
| 22:44.53 | khorben | yeah during solutions linux |
| 22:45.00 | DocScrutinizer | wow |
| 22:45.00 | khorben | intel appup |
| 22:45.19 | khorben | there was one such event in berlin in april @cbase |
| 22:45.26 | khorben | with an application contest |
| 22:45.39 | DocScrutinizer | seems everybody forgot about Paris while all are gathering in SF |
| 22:45.39 | khorben | I couldn't join though |
| 22:46.01 | khorben | and there's linuxtag exactly at the same time |
| 22:46.08 | khorben | poor scheduling |
| 22:47.20 | DocScrutinizer | well, let me put it that way: meego is using upstream no matter what. Nobody is checking if those upstream bits are ok for a handheld |
| 22:47.55 | khorben | yeah, meego's sdk is libqt+qtcreator+qemu, that's it |
| 22:48.22 | DocScrutinizer | if you point them at problems like I did, with e.g. the accelerometer driver polling the chip at 20Hz and thus eating battery like mad, they say they can't do anything as this driver "is upstream" |
| 22:48.34 | khorben | ... |
| 22:48.59 | khorben | did they even understand the advantage of going open source? |
| 22:49.17 | DocScrutinizer | well, nobody did, or I didn't |
| 22:49.36 | DocScrutinizer | I talked with a lot of people about it. larsc for example |
| 22:49.46 | DocScrutinizer | as OM has a way better driver |
| 22:49.59 | DocScrutinizer | nobody is interested in bringing sth better upstream |
| 22:50.09 | khorben | that's depressing |
| 22:50.15 | DocScrutinizer | yes, exactly |
| 22:50.23 | khorben | keeps reminding me why I prefer to write my own shit |
| 22:50.42 | khorben | at least I can fix bugs I find them |
| 22:50.46 | khorben | +when |
| 22:51.33 | khorben | anyway, speaking of battery life, my laptop is asking me to go home :) |
| 22:51.51 | khorben | I'll bbl |
| 22:52.06 | DocScrutinizer | actually that whole depressing story during last ~3days made me doubt the concept of linux at large |
| 22:53.07 | khorben | <3 BSD, *there* you welcome contributions and they're integrated through the whole base system |
| 22:53.20 | khorben | (but it's no panacea either) |
| 22:53.50 | khorben | (I mean, at least there's no open source hypocrisy) |
| 22:54.17 | khorben | (anyway, really bbl now) |
| 22:54.22 | khorben | (nice talking) |
| 23:09.33 | khorben | (back) |
| 23:25.43 | *** join/#openmoko Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) |