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| 06:54.49 | nullix | La fin de l'internet ... |
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| 06:55.20 | nullix | (wrong channel, funny anyway) |
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| 20:08.08 | nschle85 | hello, is there anybody wo writes on SHR manual in openmoko WIKI ? |
| 20:08.33 | nschle85 | -wo +who |
| 20:09.03 | [Rui] | nschle85: hi, what's up? |
| 20:10.44 | nschle85 | [Rui]: i am also writing on a SHR manual but at the moment i ithink i have some problems with the license in openmoko wiki |
| 20:10.56 | JaMa | nschle85: vanous wrote large parts |
| 20:11.29 | JaMa | nschle85: alisas Petr Vanek, but he is currently traveling I guess, should be back tomorrow or in few days |
| 20:12.17 | [Rui] | what're your problems? |
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| 20:13.41 | nschle85 | [Rui]: i would like to re-use many parts of the WIKI manual but it's license makes me some "brain pain" |
| 20:15.22 | nschle85 | [Rui]: what iam looking for is somebody who can explain me howto copy parts of the wiki manual without getting in stress with the openmoko wiki license |
| 20:16.10 | [Rui] | how about the shr wiki, as you're talking of an shr manual...? |
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| 20:18.34 | nschle85 | [Rui]: i want to create a pdf manual and a html version in offline redistributable form |
| 20:19.32 | nschle85 | [Rui]: shr is not only openmoko shr is available for N900 and HTC |
| 20:20.26 | [Rui] | so? |
| 20:20.55 | nschle85 | [Rui]: so ! :-) |
| 20:22.29 | [Rui] | nschle85: what's the problem with making a (currently only for openmoko) SHR manual? :) |
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| 20:24.04 | JaMa | nschle85: you forget palmpre :) |
| 20:24.38 | nschle85 | The openmoko wiki is under GNU Free Documentation License 1.2 If i copy any parts, the manual will be GFDL 1.2 forever ! I think SHR manulal should not be under GFDL 1.2 ! |
| 20:24.57 | nschle85 | JaMa: sorry :-) |
| 20:25.19 | [Rui] | then don't copy any parts. |
| 20:26.03 | Heinervdm | isn't GFDL compatible to CC-BY-SA? |
| 20:26.23 | mjr | no |
| 20:26.53 | [Rui] | Heinervdm: the thing is that because some GFDL documents can carry non modifiable parts (invariants) some people put all the cats in one bag. |
| 20:27.08 | nschle85 | Heinervdm: no, thats the reason why debian project think its un-free |
| 20:29.14 | nschle85 | [Rui]: my most knowledge is from this manual but not all. |
| 20:30.58 | nschle85 | mjr: do you know howto solve my problem ? |
| 20:32.29 | Heinervdm | ask all contributors to relicence there work under a different licence |
| 20:33.03 | [Rui] | nschle85: the Debian project confuses documents (which can have political messages, which you don't expect to be able to change) with code, on which you really need FaiF freedoms, but went a step further and put all cats in the same bag |
| 20:34.47 | nschle85 | Heinervdm: thats I understood, reading the license, but howto reach everyone ? and whats the license of choice ? |
| 20:35.41 | nschle85 | [Rui]: i dont want to put all cats in the same bag, i want to some parts of the cats :-) |
| 20:35.54 | nschle85 | [Rui]: use |
| 20:38.05 | [Rui] | two choices: use it or discard it :) |
| 20:39.30 | Heinervdm | Marko Knöbl, Glenn, Janvlug, Spaetz, HennR, Vanous, Niebert, Md2k7, Bmidgley, Sven1999, Multi, lindi, Case, Zeusone, Daniel |
| 20:39.37 | lindi-_ | Heinervdm: ? |
| 20:39.40 | Heinervdm | that are some people |
| 20:39.53 | Heinervdm | lindi-_: all authors of SHR Manual |
| 20:41.04 | nschle85 | Heinervdm: lindi-_ ??? dont understand |
| 20:41.15 | JaMa | isn't it much easier just to improve existing wiki manual? :) |
| 20:42.33 | [Rui] | JaMa: nschle85 doesn't like gfdl 1.2 |
| 20:43.12 | Heinervdm | nschle85: that's a list of all authors of SHR Manual but perhaps you can discard some edits, becaue most of the edits are from 5 people |
| 20:43.38 | lindi-_ | nschle85: "works licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License that include no invariant sections do fully meet the requirements of the Debian Free Software Guidelines." |
| 20:43.51 | nschle85 | JaMa: yes, but i wanted to create a nice one, redistributable, in PDF (printable), in html (installable on any webserber) and under git version control, generatable for many shr platforms |
| 20:44.20 | JaMa | nschle85: I know.. we've talked about it already |
| 20:44.29 | lindi-_ | nschle85: so GFDL is a problem only if you add invariant sections |
| 20:44.56 | JaMa | my point is that any PDF or static html (on multiple sites) just gets obsolete sooner than one wiki to rule them all |
| 20:45.14 | lindi-_ | openmoko wiki is really messy |
| 20:45.41 | JaMa | meant wiki as "format" not directly openmoko wiki |
| 20:50.29 | nschle85 | lindi-_: thank you for that information, but can i copy parts of it, modify and provide it under a new license ? |
| 20:54.04 | nschle85 | lindi-_: you are one author of the wiki manual, what kind of license do you prefer ? |
| 20:54.48 | Heinervdm | nschle85: i think it is enough to contact Marko Knöbl, Glenn, Vanous and HennR all other edits are either trivial or unrelevant for your manual |
| 20:55.10 | Heinervdm | the first 3 shouldn't be a big problem |
| 20:55.57 | nschle85 | Heinervdm: and Hennr ? |
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| 20:56.51 | Heinervdm | Those parts are form him: http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Manuals%2FSHR&diff=78534&oldid=78446 |
| 20:58.02 | Heinervdm | so you can probably remove those from your manual too |
| 21:02.35 | nschle85 | Heinervdm: thank you, the changes provided from HennR are either trivial or false (i think). so i ll contact the other authors. |
| 21:03.45 | Heinervdm | nschle85: but i think you should really create a "clean" version of the manual before you copy parts |
| 21:05.31 | nschle85 | Heinervdm you are in the core team of SHR like JaMa and so others too, did you think about a license ? or should i put it under nschle85 proprietary license until the license model is clear ? |
| 21:06.19 | Heinervdm | nschle85: no i haven't |
| 21:07.22 | Heinervdm | i think you can choose your favorite license, it just needs to be free :) |
| 21:08.33 | [Rui] | nschle85: cc-by-sa or gfdl "1.3 or later without invariants" |
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| 21:10.12 | nschle85 | Heinervdm: ok ill check in a clean version. (only build process and chapter skelletons) under a nschle85 license which will be converted to the fitting license) |
| 21:10.30 | Heinervdm | ok |
| 21:21.57 | nschle85 | lindi-_: are you still onle ? |
| 21:22.09 | nschle85 | lindi-_: online ? |
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| 21:32.57 | nschle85 | Heinervdm: some days ago i asked JaMa who is "behind SHR", please tell me names of SHR core team. In my licencense ill allow these members (all must have the same oppinion ! to change the license (they can overrule me) ) |
| 21:34.10 | Heinervdm | nschle85: after your question we collected all the names |
| 21:34.17 | Heinervdm | but i don't rember them all |
| 21:34.31 | Heinervdm | but should be in the log |
| 21:36.46 | nschle85 | Heinervdm: its hard to search all logs :-) |
| 21:39.43 | nschle85 | Heinervdm: do you remember the day i asked ? |
| 21:39.53 | Heinervdm | nschle85: no |
| 21:40.12 | nschle85 | Heinervdm: do you remember the week ? |
| 21:40.35 | Heinervdm | last week? |
| 21:43.11 | nschle85 | Heinervdm: iam usink kvirk do you know where the logs are ? |
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| 21:50.53 | Heinervdm | nschle85: can't find it in the logs, i looked one month back |
| 21:51.50 | nschle85 | Heinervdm: i looked some days back by hand.... did also not find anything |
| 21:53.01 | nschle85 | Heinervdm: no problem, ill release it under my license and later we change it ! |
| 21:53.07 | Heinervdm | ok |
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| 22:00.00 | lindi-_ | nschle85: what license? |
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| 22:02.16 | nschle85 | lindi-_: ups i ll update you... ill write a manual for shr software. i thought you wrote some parts of SHR manual on Openmoko wiki. Is that True ? |
| 22:02.28 | lindi-_ | nschle85: probably something small yes |
| 22:04.33 | nschle85 | i dont konow which parts you wrote, but the current license of openmoko wiki disturbs me to copy from the manual without changing the license of openmoko shr wiki. |
| 22:04.56 | lindi-_ | nschle85: what license would you like? |
| 22:05.29 | nschle85 | lindi-_: you are one of the authors, so i ask you |
| 22:05.46 | lindi-_ | nschle85: what's the problem with the current license? |
| 22:07.22 | Heinervdm | nschle85: just check the history of the wiki page, there you see who has written which part, lindi's part was a question about a dfu-util bug ;) |
| 22:07.36 | nschle85 | lindi-_: its not allowed to put modified parts under a new license. i think its hard to combine differnet document sources under differnt licensenes |
| 22:07.53 | lindi-_ | nschle85: so you'd like some non-copyleft license+ |
| 22:07.57 | lindi-_ | ? |
| 22:09.07 | nschle85 | lindi-_: i am a german and my english is very bad what is "non-copyleft license+" ? |
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| 22:09.26 | lindi-_ | nschle85: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft might help |
| 22:12.09 | nschle85 | lindi-_: Heinervdm: yes a NON-copyleft license may be the right way. |
| 22:12.58 | nschle85 | Heinervdm: thank you, but lindi-_: may help me to find a appropiate license |
| 22:13.57 | Heinervdm | nschle85: i think it's hard to get an ok from the authors for a non-copyleft license |
| 22:14.20 | lindi-_ | nschle85: if this is the first time you hear about the word "copyleft" you might want to spend some time studying the issue |
| 22:14.57 | nschle85 | lindi-_: what may be an issue ? |
| 22:15.09 | lindi-_ | nschle85: the fact that you have not studied it :) |
| 22:16.20 | nschle85 | lindi-_: but what may happen to me ? |
| 22:16.39 | [Rui] | nschle85: less progression on the path to enlightenment (pun intended) :) |
| 22:17.29 | [Rui] | nschle85: you'll never be able to combine works from here and there unless they are licensed compatibly. |
| 22:17.41 | [Rui] | nschle85: if nothing is said, then they're 100% proprietary |
| 22:18.34 | [Rui] | nschle85: if something is said generally, then it's likely incompatible |
| 22:18.55 | nschle85 | [Rui]: sorry i thought NON copyleft is more free than copyleft |
| 22:19.39 | [Rui] | nschle85: I guess that depends on what do you consider free... |
| 22:19.54 | [Rui] | nschle85: freedom doesn't mean no rules exist to ensure freedom for all |
| 22:20.35 | [Rui] | and, making a parallel, I wouldn't consider slavery abolished in my country if it said only slaves bought "this year" were no longer slaves |
| 22:21.31 | [Rui] | (mental note, Portugal was one of the first, if not the first, to abolish slavery) |
| 22:22.08 | [Rui] | nschle85: likewise, if you are free to do whatever you want, including reducing the freedom of others, I wouldn't consider that "more free" |
| 22:22.39 | [Rui] | nschle85: it mostly boils down to a common confusion between freedom and power |
| 22:22.55 | [Rui] | if you can take away freedom from others, then it's power you're talking about. |
| 22:23.56 | nschle85 | [Rui]: ok, you are confusing me |
| 22:24.15 | [Rui] | nschle85: sorry for confusing you, english is not my mother tongue either, how can I help? |
| 22:25.44 | nschle85 | [Rui]: i would like to derive from work of openmoko shr manual and others with different licenses but i tink, its not possible at the moment |
| 22:26.34 | [Rui] | nschle85: it might not be possible for quite many decades beyond the lifetime of either shr or openmoko :) |
| 22:26.53 | [Rui] | nschle85: I think you're seriously needing to write your own work 100% from scratch |
| 22:27.22 | [Rui] | nschle85: and if that seems like a lot of work, then please consider the work others have had before and respect their wishes :) |
| 22:27.52 | [Rui] | nschle85: perhaps then it'll seem less important to change the license than to improve the content. |
| 22:29.14 | [Rui] | because for the time being it seems (at least to me) like it's more important for you to reduce the number of GFDL documents than to write a manual |
| 22:29.54 | [Rui] | if writing a manual was more important than that,then you'd either work within the existing set of rules (improve current work), or set up your own (work from scratch) |
| 22:29.56 | nschle85 | [Rui]: i resepect the work of others but what can i do i they said: you have to release it in our wiki ! no pdf ! no html distributable ! and every new knowledge is under our license !! |
| 22:30.25 | [Rui] | pdf can be generated from wiki content quite easily and distributable html *suck* |
| 22:30.55 | [Rui] | regardless, neither versions are forbidden. GFDL is more about content than form |
| 22:31.15 | nschle85 | [Rui]: and what is about content distributed under a differnt license ? |
| 22:31.57 | [Rui] | nschle85: can you be more concrete? all this abstract talk is worsening my migraine |
| 22:32.54 | nschle85 | [Rui]: i like the structure |
| 22:34.04 | [Rui] | that doesn't stop you from using the current document |
| 22:34.05 | nschle85 | [Rui]: ok good night, my mother has also migraine and i had it until my 13th.. |
| 22:34.42 | [Rui] | nschle85: I'm 34 and keep having them once in a while :) AFAIR since earlier than my 13th year :) |
| 22:35.08 | nschle85 | [Rui]: i know abou you pain. |
| 22:35.14 | [Rui] | nschle85: I doubt there is a copyright for "structure of a document" |
| 22:35.31 | [Rui] | I think that would be tantamount to a software idea patent |
| 22:36.00 | [Rui] | many manuals written by very different people follow similar structures. |
| 22:36.41 | nschle85 | [Rui]: please go to bed, ill ask the authors to change the license. |
| 22:37.08 | [Rui] | nschle85: anyway, if improving SHR documentation is your goal, then you should really consider improving the current work rather than setting a new work from scratch or bugging people to change a problem-less license. |
| 22:37.53 | [Rui] | nschle85: if there really were a licensing problem, then I'm sure you'd have pointed several examples by now, rather than abstract FUD |
| 22:38.04 | nschle85 | [Rui]: not from scratch, a derived work ! |
| 22:38.24 | [Rui] | nschle85: nothing stops you from making a derived work. there's no invariants. |
| 22:38.47 | [Rui] | nschle85: only your unwillingness to use GFDL 1.2 :) |
| 22:39.06 | [Rui] | (which seems misguided, IMHO) |
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| 22:40.41 | nschle85 | [Rui]: howto GFDL 1.2 and GPL ? |
| 22:40.55 | nschle85 | [Rui]: combine |
| 22:41.20 | nschle85 | or GFDL 1.2 or LGPL ? |
| 22:42.43 | [Rui] | no problem WRT LGPL |
| 22:43.08 | [Rui] | with GPL I'm not sure. but that's still an abstract issue, do you have any example at all that affects the issue at hand? |
| 22:44.00 | [Rui] | I'm sure you've ran into significant trouble, eg, big or numerous sections of worthy stuff that couldn't be written from scratch easily in order to be replaced |
| 22:54.45 | [Rui] | nschle85: well, good luck and good night. |
| 22:57.28 | nschle85 | [Rui]: good night, ill fight for openmoko and all its derived work freedeom |
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