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| 07:13.42 | xqo | hello, what is the most used distro for the freerunner right now? Is Android a good option? |
| 07:14.29 | lindi- | xqo: most used? probably shr afaik |
| 07:14.46 | lindi- | (I'm a debian user) |
| 07:15.08 | xqo | alright thanks |
| 07:15.20 | xqo | Is android still not a good option? |
| 07:15.44 | xqo | you'd think with its late popularity it could be fun to use on the freerunner |
| 07:17.09 | lindi- | xqo: depends on what you value |
| 07:17.43 | PaulF | xqo: i haven't heard from folks running android since long. |
| 07:17.52 | xqo | alright. |
| 07:18.01 | PaulF | xqo: hackers are not interested in android anyway, as it's not programmer-friendly. |
| 07:18.12 | PaulF | xqo: that's what even android devs admit. |
| 07:18.26 | xqo | oh, okay. thanks! |
| 07:19.20 | PaulF | xqo: google's android site basically suggests that the most important idea of android is _selling_ apps via android-market so that's certainly not something a free software enthusiast usually wants. |
| 07:19.39 | lindi- | yeah that was the largest downside for me too |
| 07:19.49 | lindi- | the idea of sandboxed apps however is very interesting |
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| 07:20.59 | lindi- | that's something that is clearly missing from debian and shr too |
| 07:21.28 | PaulF | lindi-: you know that security always comes with a price, you have to make compromises between security and over-complication of the system. |
| 07:21.53 | rhkfin | xqo: you might want to also check qtmoko, it's maybe the most 'finished' distro atm |
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| 07:24.04 | PaulF | lindi-: sandboxing a public http daemon is one thing, and sandboxing every end-user app is too damn complex. If you consider the history of breaches (and the consequencies) you'll probably agree that most often sandboxing doesn't worth the trouble. ;) |
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| 07:25.30 | PaulF | lindi-: also that's a matter of what one wants. Android was made with the purpose of running random crap-apps. But that's clearly not a typical use-case for a Debian system. |
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| 07:28.15 | lindi- | PaulF: of course security comes with a price yes |
| 07:28.42 | lindi- | PaulF: but giving all applications all access also has a price => you need to be really careful on what programs you run |
| 07:29.01 | PaulF | lindi-: btw, have you ever tried studying windows ACLs? |
| 07:29.26 | lindi- | PaulF: what breaches do you mean? you mean that sandboxing is difficult to make without security bugs? |
| 07:29.49 | lindi- | PaulF: debian is the universal os, I want to be able to configure it to do anything I want :P |
| 07:30.06 | lindi- | PaulF: I don't think windows supported those in win3.1 very well |
| 07:30.21 | PaulF | lindi-: it's an interesting and complex solution, on the order of magnitude more flexible than unix's permissions. But it's so damn complex (especially given the surprisingly lacking documentation) that almost nobody properly understands and uses that. |
| 07:30.42 | lindi- | unix permissions clearly are lacking though |
| 07:31.03 | PaulF | lindi-: i mean breaches in the apps that lead to some bad things that could have avoided if they were sandboxed. |
| 07:31.14 | lindi- | PaulF: ah |
| 07:31.18 | PaulF | lindi-: even POSIX ACLs are not nearly as powerful as windows'. |
| 07:31.32 | lindi- | PaulF: anyways, I'd like to sandbox things like my one-time password calculator from everything else that runs on my FR |
| 07:32.01 | PaulF | lindi-: why can't you use a restrictive selinux policy for every app by default? |
| 07:32.14 | lindi- | PaulF: still learning selinux Xorg extension |
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| 07:32.43 | lindi- | PaulF: it looks somewhat complex. apparently I need to modify the window manager |
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| 07:36.49 | PaulF | lindi-: i've heard multics was made with strong focus on security and it went nowhere while ITS gave many folks a lot of fun and experience throughout the many years. |
| 07:37.38 | lindi- | PaulF: i haven't used either one :) |
| 07:37.41 | PaulF | lindi-: i mean usually really secure systems are either too limited or too complex and inefficient so you have to choose. |
| 07:37.50 | PaulF | lindi-: neither have i, unfortunately. |
| 07:38.00 | lindi- | PaulF: but I'd like to have a normal system + one-time password calculator in isolation |
| 07:38.16 | lindi- | PaulF: that'd be easier than having to carry a separate physical device for one-time password generation |
| 07:38.37 | lindi- | PaulF: it shouldn't be compler or inefficient |
| 07:38.39 | PaulF | lindi-: this option is exactly what i thought about because it'd be an easy and working solution. |
| 07:38.50 | PaulF | lindi-: i meant carrying a separate device. |
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| 07:39.08 | lindi- | PaulF: it is not easy, those one-time password calculators are not cheap |
| 07:39.23 | PaulF | lindi-: can't you implement it on your atmega or something? |
| 07:39.30 | lindi- | PaulF: you call that easy? ;) |
| 07:39.41 | lindi- | PaulF: they need a keyboard for me to type the passphrase |
| 07:40.42 | lindi- | (I'm using opiekey(1)) |
| 07:41.54 | PaulF | lindi-: i see. Then why not switch to a text terminal to start the generator? |
| 07:42.48 | lindi- | PaulF: chvt 1? |
| 07:43.00 | PaulF | lindi-: yes, to not have to deal with X |
| 07:43.06 | lindi- | PaulF: on FR the problem is that I need xvkbd |
| 07:43.18 | lindi- | since I don't carry a physical keyboard with me |
| 07:43.33 | PaulF | lindi-: ok, then what about starting another dedicated X server? |
| 07:43.42 | lindi- | PaulF: that eats a lot of memory |
| 07:43.53 | lindi- | PaulF: but is a possibility |
| 07:43.54 | PaulF | lindi-: sure, but for a short amount of time |
| 07:45.19 | lindi- | PaulF: I just thought that it'd be fancier to integrate this to a single X server :) |
| 07:45.27 | lindi- | PaulF: just to learn something new about selinux |
| 07:45.44 | lindi- | PaulF: I'm thinking this could be used to run graphical package managers on typical desktop environments too |
| 07:45.44 | PaulF | lindi-: i fully agree :) |
| 07:45.56 | lindi- | PaulF: have I advertised sido yet? ;) |
| 07:46.11 | PaulF | lindi-: at least i haven't seen it. |
| 07:46.54 | lindi- | PaulF: it's a prototype to make sudo safer to use: http://lindi.iki.fi/lindi/darcs/sido/README |
| 07:48.34 | PaulF | lindi-: so basically you're trying to workaround the inherent insecureness of X? |
| 07:49.12 | lindi- | PaulF: i don't believe it is inherent, we just are not using selinux yet :) |
| 07:49.44 | lindi- | PaulF: trusted solaris folks claim to have secured their X |
| 07:50.15 | lindi- | PaulF: but since it's non-free stuff it's very hard to say what X stuff they had to disable to get that done (at least opengl afaik) |
| 07:50.36 | PaulF | lindi-: so here comes the non-zero price again... |
| 07:50.47 | lindi- | PaulF: hmm? |
| 07:51.05 | PaulF | lindi-: to secure the system they had to make it more limited. |
| 07:51.24 | lindi- | PaulF: yeah probably |
| 07:52.19 | lindi- | PaulF: but a typical desktop user does not need a 100% unspoofable dialog, he can probably live with 100% unsniffable password and 99% unspoofable dialog :) |
| 07:52.48 | PaulF | lindi-: sorry for the OT, but do you by any chance have a solution to "oh, i want to install this package but i can't because apt-get is already running installing something else"? |
| 07:53.01 | lindi- | PaulF: not really no |
| 07:53.08 | lindi- | PaulF: I use chroots :) |
| 07:53.18 | lindi- | so multiple apt-get instances can be running at the same time |
| 07:55.30 | PaulF | lindi-: windows uses C-M-<delete> as a very special combination to prevent spoofing dialogs. |
| 07:56.02 | lindi- | PaulF: yep |
| 07:56.19 | lindi- | PaulF: that's why I chose it for sido default too :P |
| 07:56.46 | lindi- | (actually it is xsakd default. xsakd could be configured to run something else than sido-sign too) |
| 07:58.14 | PaulF | lindi-: complex stuff... esp if you want to have a virtual keyboard working with it. |
| 07:58.28 | lindi- | PaulF: yes |
| 07:59.12 | PaulF | lindi-: it looks like there should be a very dedicated handling for the security-related stuff in X server integrated. |
| 07:59.23 | lindi- | PaulF: there is selinux extension |
| 07:59.32 | lindi- | PaulF: I just read the source |
| 07:59.49 | lindi- | and some papers |
| 08:05.11 | PaulF | lindi-: (serialise apt-get requests) surprisingly the tool in question is called "postpone" and it even has a "--debian key", so i'd just need to "postpone -d apt-get install coolapp" or even make an alias apt-get="postpone -df /usr/sbin/apt-get" |
| 08:06.54 | PaulF | /usr/bin/apt-get |
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| 09:12.33 | rhkfin | PaulF: interesting! |
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| 09:40.39 | rhkfin | except that alias thing doesn't work.. complains me about /var/lib/apt/lists/lock .. (does Debian & ubuntu possibly name the locks in a different way?!) |
| 09:46.07 | rhkfin | hmm.. sudo seems to mess up the aliases.. |
| 09:58.26 | PaulF | rhkfin: yeah |
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| 12:31.22 | panicking_mike | larsc, hi |
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| 14:19.09 | DocScrutinizer | PaulF: lindi-: isn't a sandbox to block access from _inside_ to general outside? I'd guess a sandbox doesn't help anything to protect any app inside from keylogging or data readout form _outside_ the sandbox |
| 14:19.45 | DocScrutinizer | so what's the use of running a OTP generator inside a sandbox? o.O |
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| 14:28.18 | lindi- | DocScrutinizer: I'd run rest of the system inside a sandbox :) |
| 14:28.35 | DocScrutinizer | that's more like it |
| 14:28.50 | DocScrutinizer | it's called TPM afaik :-P |
| 14:29.06 | DocScrutinizer | or TCPA or something |
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| 14:34.44 | lindi- | DocScrutinizer: not sure, i thought those included hardware support |
| 14:34.58 | DocScrutinizer | not really |
| 14:36.26 | DocScrutinizer | it's primarily a bootloader checking signature of kernel, kernel checking signature of apps, and making sure no 'rogue' app ever gets executed as long as any 'safe app' has still some memory allocated or not cleaned out |
| 14:37.20 | DocScrutinizer | the hw thing comes in when mamaging the keys, and making sure nobody replaces the bootloader or the sig keys it uses to verify that's a 'safe kernel' |
| 14:38.41 | DocScrutinizer | so TPM is all about depriving power from user |
| 14:38.59 | SpeedEvil | Assuming the user doesn't have the bootloader keys. |
| 14:39.15 | DocScrutinizer | yep |
| 14:39.24 | SpeedEvil | I would quite like a device that is a total functional brick if the password is forgotten. |
| 14:39.34 | SpeedEvil | It cannot be recovered even with flashing tools. |
| 14:40.45 | DocScrutinizer | sounds odd. Usually a clean flashing, erasing *all* data on device, is considered a viable recovery method |
| 14:42.11 | DocScrutinizer | this applies to firmware as well as for HDD with hardware password |
| 14:42.25 | Wonka | SpeedEvil: with hard enough ionizing radiation you can even erase Fuse Bits on uCs... all devices can be recovered if there's no real damage done to something |
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| 14:43.10 | DocScrutinizer | Wonka: nope. Fuse bits often are real fuses. Once blown they can't recover |
| 14:43.46 | Wonka | DocScrutinizer: hmm. hmm. not so for those atmels flylogic took apart... |
| 14:43.53 | Wonka | http://www.flylogic.net/blog/ |
| 14:44.32 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, atmel fuse logic follows the erase-all paradigm. You can "reset to factory" |
| 14:44.32 | Wonka | DocScrutinizer: using a degausser on a HDD surely causes all data to be lost - including those parts of the firmware that are on the magnetic media... it's quite effectively bricked then :> |
| 14:44.36 | SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: I do not want someone stealing my phone to be able to recover it. Even if they cannot get my data. |
| 14:45.22 | Wonka | .oO( watchdog activated load of thermite? ) |
| 14:45.25 | DocScrutinizer | suggestes self-distruct |
| 14:45.54 | SpeedEvil | I want it to work if I get it back, and know password. |
| 14:45.57 | Wonka | hrm. what can the battery controller do? can it explode the LiPo battery? |
| 14:46.06 | DocScrutinizer | for smal units usualy Litium is used :-D |
| 14:46.57 | DocScrutinizer | esp on hardened attache cases |
| 14:47.24 | DocScrutinizer | drill a hole anywhere -> documents incinerated |
| 14:48.38 | DocScrutinizer | wonders if anybody thought about cutting case in two halves under protective gas |
| 14:49.17 | SpeedEvil | I have. |
| 14:50.08 | SpeedEvil | Related wonderings are how to make aerogel, and pressure sterilisation of food. Both of which use stuuupid presures. |
| 14:50.35 | DocScrutinizer | aerogel? |
| 14:50.41 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 14:50.42 | DocScrutinizer | what's that? |
| 14:50.58 | SpeedEvil | It is a very open foam made from glass. |
| 14:51.04 | SpeedEvil | Or other materials. |
| 14:51.04 | DocScrutinizer | aaah |
| 14:51.14 | SpeedEvil | That ends up at a density approaching air. |
| 14:51.24 | DocScrutinizer | duh |
| 14:51.32 | DocScrutinizer | probably less |
| 14:51.34 | DocScrutinizer | :-D |
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| 14:52.03 | SpeedEvil | you start with a jelly, then replace the water with alcohol. Then at pressures that liquify CO2, you immerse it in CO2 until the alcohol diffuses out. |
| 14:52.25 | SpeedEvil | you can also do it with only alcohol - but the pressures are worse |
| 14:52.41 | DocScrutinizer | liquid glass and water?? |
| 14:53.01 | SpeedEvil | It's not quite liquid glass - it's something that when you then heat it, you get a glass. |
| 14:53.03 | DocScrutinizer | not seriously |
| 14:53.06 | Wonka | stuuuuuupid pressures |
| 14:53.23 | Wonka | kBars? MBars? |
| 14:53.32 | DocScrutinizer | mbars |
| 14:53.33 | SpeedEvil | mbars |
| 14:53.34 | Wonka | yes, "M", not "m" |
| 14:53.36 | SpeedEvil | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_pressure_food_preservation |
| 14:53.43 | SpeedEvil | Is also fun. |
| 14:53.45 | Wonka | "m" is "milli" |
| 14:53.50 | Wonka | "M" is "Mega" |
| 14:53.59 | SpeedEvil | Though that's 500Mbar |
| 14:54.16 | SpeedEvil | err |
| 14:54.16 | SpeedEvil | no |
| 14:54.16 | SpeedEvil | 500MPa |
| 14:54.33 | SpeedEvil | Aerogel is a hundred bar ish. 10MPa |
| 14:54.57 | DocScrutinizer | I still don't wrap my head around aerogel |
| 14:55.47 | SpeedEvil | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerogel |
| 14:55.49 | SpeedEvil | funky stuff |
| 14:56.00 | Wonka | 70kpsi ~ 4.8M Bar |
| 14:56.09 | Wonka | erh. |
| 14:56.10 | SpeedEvil | Aerogel was first created by Samuel Stephens Kistler in 1931, as a result of a bet with Charles Learned over who could replace the liquid in 'jellies' with gas without causing shrinkage.[3][4 |
| 14:56.13 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 14:56.13 | Wonka | 70kpsi ~ 4.8 kBar |
| 14:56.25 | DocScrutinizer | at 500MBar I guess any food, no matter strawberry marmelade or cheese, will end as diamonds :-P |
| 14:56.35 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 14:56.47 | SpeedEvil | yes - 500MPa is rarther smaller. |
| 14:57.55 | Wonka | DocScrutinizer: nah. 0.03 Diamond Formation Pressure, says wolframalpha |
| 14:58.22 | Wonka | aaargh. make that 0.05. I wonder how I manage to mistype stuff all the time. |
| 14:58.34 | Wonka | and also I wonder why they don't let you just c&p from the site |
| 14:58.53 | DocScrutinizer | lol |
| 14:59.39 | DocScrutinizer | what'S pressure for 5th, 6th, and 7th aggregate of water? |
| 15:00.23 | DocScrutinizer | 7th = neutron matter? |
| 15:00.40 | DocScrutinizer | mater even |
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| 15:03.38 | SpeedEvil | http://www.enm.bris.ac.uk/teaching/projects/2002_03/jb8355/review.html |
| 15:04.03 | SpeedEvil | Ice 7 is abourt 2GPa |
| 15:05.32 | Wonka | where's Ice 6? |
| 15:06.03 | SpeedEvil | about 800MPa |
| 15:06.13 | Wonka | I don't see it in the diagram |
| 15:06.23 | Wonka | I, II, III, IV, V, VII |
| 15:06.25 | Wonka | but not VI |
| 15:06.37 | SpeedEvil | TIt's just below 7 |
| 15:06.56 | SpeedEvil | 6 is the first one that can be warm. |
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| 15:08.59 | Wonka | well, at that pressure, the temperature is quite irrelevant to me :> |
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| 16:08.43 | PBeck | hi |
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| 16:24.05 | SparFux | Hello. Why do they say, the samsung H1 has a 1 GHz processor, when it actually has a 600 MHz + 488 something MHz dsp? |
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| 16:27.45 | SparFux | ha, now I bought three of the samsung h1 and already doubt wethter this was wise. :-\ |
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| 16:30.40 | SpeedEvil | SparFux: you don't care about clock frequency. |
| 16:30.50 | SpeedEvil | Youcare about how fast the software goes. |
| 16:31.21 | SparFux | Hm... the faster the clock the faster the software, if it's the same software. :-) |
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| 16:31.57 | SparFux | Te be honest, I plan on replacing the whole software on that phone anyway. |
| 16:32.25 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 16:32.29 | SparFux | Not? |
| 16:32.48 | SpeedEvil | Clock speed and execution speedd do not scale linerarly unless the processors are identical. |
| 16:32.53 | SpeedEvil | And the RAM is the same ratio. |
| 16:33.14 | SparFux | Ah, you are right. |
| 16:33.45 | *** part/#openmoko nullix (~philippe@92.103.174.253) |
| 16:33.46 | SparFux | Ok, the snapdragon sounds like being forther developed Cortex-A8, but that's not so important, the Snapdragon phone is more expensive anyway. |
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| 16:34.51 | SparFux | The most important thign would be to get root, replace everything and have drivers for all items anyway. |
| 16:36.11 | SparFux | * LiMo (Linux Mobile) OS * TI OMAP 3430 600 MHz (same as N900) CPU/GPU chipsets sounds like a good choice, The N900 can run debian :-) |
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| 19:43.51 | radekp | larsc: hi, are you here? if you are interested i have some measurements of current during suspend... |
| 19:44.16 | larsc | radekp: yes I'm here. |
| 19:45.05 | radekp | larsc: maybe they are useless but i spent quite a lot of time with them :) |
| 19:45.06 | radekp | larsc: http://activationrecord.net/radekp/pub/suspend_power2/results.txt |
| 19:45.41 | radekp | larsc: i have measured current with multimeter before every call to device suspend |
| 19:45.52 | gena2x | radekp: they will not be useless anyway. as we now know how much is driven for each thing on boot |
| 19:47.08 | radekp | larsc: another interesting thing is that suspending modem is somehow different for 2.6.29 and 2.6.34 |
| 19:47.35 | gena2x | radekp: btw, you had specific patches for modem |
| 19:47.45 | radekp | larsc: if i do echo mem > /sys/power/state on .29 it suspends so that device eats 9mA |
| 19:47.58 | radekp | larsc: with 2.6.34 i have 30mA |
| 19:48.44 | gena2x | now 30mA? thought you had 15mA, mine result is 20mA. |
| 19:48.44 | radekp | larsc: if i do echo "AT@POFF" > /dev/ttySAC0 then i get 16mA for .34 |
| 19:48.56 | gena2x | ah. yes. |
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| 19:50.04 | gena2x | btw i think this may very a bit, as battery has(guess) slightly different voltage depending on remainig charge |
| 19:50.16 | gena2x | s/very/wary/ |
| 19:50.50 | radekp | larsc: i dont think it's problem but i think it's interesting |
| 19:52.23 | larsc | hm |
| 19:52.40 | larsc | radekp: have you tried suspending the modem via the sysfs nodes? |
| 19:52.56 | larsc | /sys/bus/platform/devices/gta02-gsm-pm.0/power |
| 19:53.01 | larsc | or something like that |
| 19:53.23 | radekp | larsc: yes but it has no effect on the overall current drain in suspend |
| 19:54.11 | larsc | ok. thats interesting |
| 19:54.52 | radekp | i can try it once more to confirm it... |
| 19:58.17 | radekp | larsc: one more maybe interesting thing - the current in suspend is high even with openwrt 2.6.30 kernel |
| 20:03.15 | larsc | hm. I'm wondering what we are not turning off |
| 20:05.01 | larsc | i have some free time in the next days. i'll try to take a closer look and port the patches to 2.6.36 |
| 20:07.25 | radekp | oki, thanks |
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