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| 18:13.25 | kardan | hi, is anybody awake? |
| 18:15.17 | kardan | I have a question concerning the current hardware development and if the gta03 is really dead. |
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| 18:20.47 | max_posedon | yes it is |
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| 18:24.32 | SpeedEvil | Unless someone comes up with a large slice of a million dollars for dev work |
| 18:27.20 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: what i can't understand is how so many chinese copycat shops manage to produce so many distinct devices, while free software/hardware companies always can't afford even the first step? |
| 18:27.53 | SpeedEvil | I'm unsure how distinct they are. |
| 18:28.05 | SpeedEvil | There are several issues I think. |
| 18:28.39 | SpeedEvil | Possible lack of protection, and ability to buy working phone designs 'off the shelf' - which you just munge a bit, and put a case on. |
| 18:28.43 | SpeedEvil | Cheaper labour. |
| 18:28.55 | SpeedEvil | Already having a factory pumping out phones. |
| 18:30.12 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: the case is what bothers me |
| 18:30.23 | PaulFertser | Everybody says producing _any_ case is prohibitively expensive. |
| 18:30.49 | SpeedEvil | I'm not sure that's quite true. |
| 18:30.59 | SpeedEvil | There must be toolmaking houses in china. |
| 18:31.16 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: as to the working phone designs, yes, they have some kind of common knowledge base (schematics/software/etc), do you want me to give you a link to an interesting article about that? |
| 18:32.04 | SpeedEvil | I question http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CLEAR-CRYSTAL-HARD-CASE-SKIN-COVER-POUCH-Nokia-N900-/300430878736?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Mobiles_Accessories_RL&hash=item45f3136810 - uses a really expensive mould |
| 18:32.08 | SpeedEvil | sure |
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| 18:34.22 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: bunnie's blogpost (he's the man behind Chumby, and the one who has first hacked Xbox): http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=284 |
| 18:34.52 | SpeedEvil | Ah - not read that one. |
| 18:34.57 | SpeedEvil | Lots of good stuff on that blog |
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| 19:35.29 | kardan | does anybody know, if the financial calculations for the hardware development are open somewhere? |
| 19:38.46 | kardan | or other question: how many gta02 do we need to sell to revive 03 |
| 19:40.05 | kardan | maybe we could lower the costs with a reprap-machine |
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| 19:44.24 | max_posedon | kardan, more than 100'000 I think |
| 19:45.50 | max_posedon | PaulFertser, I can say you why |
| 19:46.14 | max_posedon | because most "open source" users, don't want open hardware |
| 19:46.34 | max_posedon | they want open hardware with specs like upstream devices |
| 19:46.38 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: have you read messages on community ML about cost of producing a prototype case? |
| 19:46.49 | max_posedon | I think not |
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| 19:52.05 | kardan | I dont think, they dont want open hardware but atm its too hard imaginable to work for it. and its necessary to organize matter which is a bit more than bytes |
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| 20:00.44 | kardan | Is it really impossible to take the financial risk as a community? maybe like this: http://www.cofundos.org/projects.php?tag=openmoko |
| 20:04.00 | kardan | so the question is, how do we collect 5 million for the first steps (do we really need so much?)? |
| 20:05.22 | PaulFertser | kardan: do we need any decent things at all? Given how much real hackers Openmoko attracted and how much lusers etc etc i really doubt people really need decent (hacker-wise) smartphones. |
| 20:05.34 | PaulFertser | Screw that |
| 20:05.42 | PaulFertser | The community was weak right from the start. |
| 20:08.57 | PaulFertser | The considerable amount of sane people unsubscribed from the community ML just because of all the useless questions and discussions there. |
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| 20:12.29 | kardan | seems like an organizational problem to separate support and dev mailinglists |
| 20:12.33 | PaulFertser | No |
| 20:12.41 | PaulFertser | kardan: there was a support ML |
| 20:14.40 | PaulFertser | kardan: it's just that people are not interested. Most developers were happy enough with Maemo or iPhone or whatever. I couldn't believe my eyes when i saw how little people are really interested in a free smartphone. I thought there're plenty of hackers around wanting to have such a device in their pockets. Wishful thinking eh, reality proved me wrong, just as it does every time i hope for the best. |
| 20:15.54 | kardan | i see it like this: even if there is no mainstream market for OH phones there is the a need to have them. so why cant build the hacking community work alltogether in a big support company that collects money for hardware development |
| 20:17.27 | JaMa | fully agree with PaulFertser |
| 20:17.29 | PaulFertser | kardan: calculations were done many times already: to get access to modern components you need to produce at least hundreds of thousands of devices, not some 10 000. And without modern components one is stuck in the past forever. |
| 20:18.39 | kardan | its always also a question how well information is distributed and: people move very slowly. for me it took months that I visited the OM wiki the second time and even more, that I got my first one. I never had the feeling I need this just now, but I surely know that this project needs to be alive. |
| 20:18.43 | JaMa | everybody talks about OH phones and how comunity would help itself, but we're looking for experienced gta01 owner for really long..ffs |
| 20:19.48 | PaulFertser | JaMa: and funny thing is that i have gta01 now but i'm totally demotivated |
| 20:19.58 | JaMa | there was so many great hackers involved in OM, but how many people does some development now? |
| 20:20.00 | PaulFertser | Not funny rather sad |
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| 20:21.00 | kardan | hard to read that but I know that feeling from another scene. for me the solution always is: keep it running. even if you go slow for some time, dont drop it. |
| 20:21.02 | PaulFertser | JaMa: btw, the fact you agree with me atm is not cool -- i'm in a rather foul mood. |
| 20:21.08 | JaMa | PaulFertser: I know you have gta01 and I know you're experienced much more then it's needed for that testing and also involved in other OM related things.. |
| 20:21.39 | JaMa | PaulFertser: so I didn't have you in mind when I wrote that.. |
| 20:22.12 | PaulFertser | I'm not involved in anything productive lately, unfortunately. |
| 20:22.36 | JaMa | just switching SHR to 2.6.32+ means no more gta01 images from me (as well as broken packages in feeds) |
| 20:23.26 | JaMa | but I refuse to work on something I have no way to test (and I don't want to buy another gta phone just to test something I'll never use - as I'll prefer gta02) |
| 20:24.49 | kardan | i dont understand why development is still done for gta01 while the 02 is available |
| 20:25.37 | JaMa | kardan: for users already owning those gta01 |
| 20:26.05 | JaMa | kardan: both gta are quite close, so it's no "extra development only for gta01" |
| 20:27.02 | kardan | maybe the problem is also that everybody expects community driven development for free which is somehow insane for the amount of work |
| 20:27.26 | JaMa | right now I know that for usable gta01 image we need only: defconfig for newer kernels, xinput calibration confirmation, check sysfs nodes - create patch for FSO, because some sysfs nodes will be probably now different between gta01 and gta02) |
| 20:27.35 | PaulFertser | kardan: i expected more community members who know basics of *nix systems at least. |
| 20:28.51 | kardan | can you give a number of experianced unix developers? |
| 20:29.38 | JaMa | kardan: yes.. just a few hackers paid to work on it full-time can do more than 3 times more volunters in free time (after returning from daywork) |
| 20:30.18 | Weiss | PaulFertser: I agree... I get so many messages from people who say they "would help if they could". I always try to tell them it's not as tough as it looks but it doesn't make any difference |
| 20:31.56 | *** part/#openmoko plhardy (~nullix@freebox.famillelhardy.org) |
| 20:32.24 | PaulFertser | Weiss: looks like GNU/Linux systems finally reached those poisoned by the consumerist society. Not sure if that's good or bad. One of my friend promised to switch to *BSD if that happens. Now, as several years passed, he switched from Slackware to Ubuntu instead (/me's confused) |
| 20:32.39 | Weiss | odd.. |
| 20:33.12 | JaMa | hehe |
| 20:33.24 | JaMa | maybe consumerist society got him instead.. |
| 20:33.46 | Weiss | I think a large part of the OM situation right now is that people are scared to tackle difficult projects. making a smartphone work properly is just really hard, and nothing will change that. |
| 20:34.00 | PaulFertser | JaMa: he moved from RU to JP |
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| 20:34.32 | Weiss | for example, whatever happened to all the people who were interested in working on 3D drivers? somewhere I went from being "someone who didn't really know anything but would help if he could" to the "all-knowing Glamo guru", or something |
| 20:35.52 | Weiss | (and, in case anyone didn't notice, I'm not all-knowing) |
| 20:35.56 | JaMa | some clever and interested guys imho moved on after seeing that gta phones aren't so big success as all hopped they will be |
| 20:36.19 | PaulFertser | Weiss: it's the overall amount of the lowlevel hackers involved that is too low, i guess. Not sure why it happened, probably all the capable folks are already hired by RedHat/Intel/MontaVista/whomever and have no time and passion anymore. |
| 20:36.23 | JaMa | ie Balrog who did first mplayer->glamo hack completly lost his interest later.. |
| 20:37.51 | JaMa | and even those bits were from big parts written originally by openmoko employees and glued together to work with mplayer |
| 20:38.03 | Weiss | yeah |
| 20:38.49 | Weiss | this is also true of, say, regular X.org development as well - few people are really into the scary low-level stuff |
| 20:39.50 | PaulFertser | Especially given the amount of abuse they face. Even the Intel devs are very unhappy with docs they get for the development. And with the buggy hardware. |
| 20:40.03 | Weiss | indeed |
| 20:40.55 | Weiss | enjoys a challenge (and doesn't mean "duh, a challenge I could do!" Simpsons-style) |
| 20:41.01 | balrog-k1n | JaMa: the glamo can't do much more than what is already implemented in mplayer, at least according to the specs |
| 20:41.35 | PaulFertser | Weiss: of all the X.org hackers i read/heard i like Luc Verhaegen the most. Too bad AMD killed radeonhd development and Novell screwed the devs. |
| 20:41.46 | [Rui] | Weiss: there's a mobiphil who seems willing to learn some more about glamo :) |
| 20:42.10 | PaulFertser | balrog-k1n: but it would be nice to see this functionality implemented in a non-hacky way, compatible with KMS+DRM blablabla |
| 20:42.11 | JaMa | ie, I would like to dive deeper in some low-level stuff, but after spending all "free" time by poking to all sorts of recipes/project I don't have time to spend more time concentrated on some particular low-level problem |
| 20:42.33 | JaMa | balrog-k1n: hi :), great to see you here |
| 20:42.36 | Weiss | [Rui]: sure.. I wish he'd get involved with the kernel stuff instead of asking questions so often |
| 20:43.21 | balrog-k1n | PaulFertser: well yeah.. though it costs time and it seems it wouldn't be for a huge gain because the hardware is what it is |
| 20:43.29 | balrog-k1n | nicer hardware is available now |
| 20:43.37 | PaulFertser | balrog-k1n: yep, everything's too late :| |
| 20:44.00 | JaMa | balrog-k1n: I still appreciate your work and belive it can't do much more.. I was thinking more of integrating it with weiss's drm infrastructure or implementing it as vdpau to be more likely accepted upstream |
| 20:44.28 | PaulFertser | balrog-k1n: nicer in some aspects, though i still do not know about a better educational platform hardware-wise. Everything else is too expensive and closed at the same time. |
| 20:45.15 | balrog-k1n | PaulFertser: true... have you looked at thing like the beagleboard though? |
| 20:45.16 | PaulFertser | But it doesn't seem many universities are interested in that kind of education i envision. |
| 20:45.40 | balrog-k1n | (btw i've always been advocating switching to omap cpus for the gta02 and i still think the hardware would be less crash happy if it was omap based) |
| 20:45.42 | PaulFertser | balrog-k1n: sure, i know about it. Not as capable as FR, lacks perepherals and mobility. |
| 20:46.09 | PaulFertser | But it's a better CPU indeed. |
| 20:46.31 | JaMa | balrog-k1n: have you seen beagle+gta hybrid from golden delicious? |
| 20:46.36 | PaulFertser | balrog-k1n: OTOH as far as i know it's still not supported properly and fully upstream, i think that tells a lot. |
| 20:47.00 | balrog-k1n | PaulFertser: ah didn't know that |
| 20:47.12 | balrog-k1n | JaMa: nope, let me google it up :) |
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| 20:48.01 | [Rui] | The Linux 2.6.3x show the phone is quite capable |
| 20:48.20 | [Rui] | a lot of things are unreasonably slow because of all the debug |
| 20:48.28 | PaulFertser | balrog-k1n: probably i'm lacking some info... What i really know is that the integrated MUSB core is not documented openly anywhere and that the driver is utter crap. |
| 20:49.27 | balrog-k1n | PaulFertser: the nokia tablets use the MUSB thing too.. is it that bad? or is it a different one? |
| 20:49.56 | JaMa | balrog-k1n: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle&referer=Neo%20Freerunner |
| 20:49.58 | PaulFertser | balrog-k1n: folks are struggling for fucking several months trying to get USB host support on N900: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=658278#post658278 |
| 20:51.21 | balrog-k1n | JaMa: fun idea |
| 20:51.33 | JaMa | balrog-k1n: announcement http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-May/061829.html |
| 20:53.21 | PaulFertser | looks at the weather forecasts and sees he'll have to use the underground instead of a bicycle: 28km through the city in a heavy rain is not something fun enough :/ |
| 20:53.37 | Weiss | has heavy rain at the moment |
| 20:53.56 | Weiss | the HVV website also suggested a connection which doesn't physically work, so I spent ten minutes standing in it, as well |
| 20:54.23 | PaulFertser | balrog-k1n: btw, do you use an MTB or a road bike for utility cycling? |
| 20:54.40 | PaulFertser | road racing i meant |
| 20:54.53 | balrog-k1n | PaulFertser: MTB, but always wanted to switch :) |
| 20:54.59 | balrog-k1n | raining here as well |
| 20:55.27 | balrog-k1n | PaulFertser: the annoying thing about non MTBs is they're too easy to break |
| 20:55.29 | PaulFertser | balrog-k1n: aren't you afraid of the speed it gives? ;) |
| 20:58.30 | PaulFertser | balrog-k1n: my bike computer on my "former MTB" (it got steel fork, slick tires and low handlebar configuration now) shows i reached 59 km/h somewhere on my way from/to work. :) I wonder what i'll get on my road racing bike :) |
| 20:59.02 | balrog-k1n | whoah |
| 20:59.34 | balrog-k1n | PaulFertser: good thing i have no speedometer.. i'd be scared knowing i was going > 40 |
| 21:00.02 | PaulFertser | balrog-k1n: hehe :) |
| 21:00.04 | balrog-k1n | PaulFertser: do you use the freerunner as the bike computer? |
| 21:01.06 | PaulFertser | balrog-k1n: no, i have some old Cateye that my pal found in a junk box at a bike shop many years ago. |
| 21:01.28 | PaulFertser | Attaching a FR not worth the trouble. Especially given how "readable" it's in the daylight. |
| 21:01.50 | PaulFertser | And that i'd need to connect the sensor somehow. And write a software to process those pulses etc etc. |
| 21:02.14 | balrog-k1n | i knwo people use it for mapping in OSM, special handles are for sale |
| 21:02.15 | PaulFertser | It would be a funny project if i was in a happy state probably. |
| 21:02.21 | [Rui] | yeah, I wonder how the price would change if the screen was the same transreflexive OLPC uses |
| 21:02.39 | [Rui] | in grayscale mode it would help a lot for the power consumption levels |
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| 21:03.18 | JaMa | for gps tracking it is enough to keep it ON in small bike pocket |
| 21:03.47 | JaMa | but I was too lazy to post-process it after returning from trips :/ |
| 21:04.12 | kardan | Jama thanks for the links. that was the info I came here for. lets make it work! |
| 21:04.46 | balrog-k1n | JaMa: i find most GPSes, including the gta01/02 give better results when they're held in the a constant direction relative to your movement |
| 21:05.09 | balrog-k1n | and in the pockets they shake and turn around |
| 21:05.45 | balrog-k1n | plus i guess some people want to launch tangogps to see what parts they have already mapped on the screen |
| 21:05.50 | SpeedEvil | To go off-topic a bit - I've had OK results with the n900 |
| 21:06.04 | JaMa | well I'm using narrow part of bigger pocket attached to bike.. so it was in almost constant direction for me |
| 21:06.19 | SpeedEvil | http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SpeedEvil/traces/584852 - traces from my trouser pocket while driving |
| 21:07.05 | JaMa | balrog-k1n: I was using cgps-logger on cmdline and launched tango or navit only in case I wasn't sure where I should go (few times a day) and I had to switch batteries once a day :/ |
| 21:07.25 | JaMa | balrog-k1n: even with display mostly off |
| 21:07.54 | PaulFertser | balrog-k1n: the biggest surprise for me was rain: the winter was so long that i got used to the snow, and it doesn't really make one cold. Apparently now one needs to carry some raincoat just in case. |
| 21:09.21 | PaulFertser | Or do you use some membrane clothing? |
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| 21:32.37 | PaulFertser | Anyway, time to try to hide for some hours from this sick world. cya |
| 21:33.03 | Weiss | nn |
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| 21:33.14 | Weiss | sleep well :) |
| 21:34.39 | JaMa | gnight! |
| 21:37.47 | [Rui] | PaulFertser: see ya |
| 21:48.26 | PaulFertser | Thanks folks :) |
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