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| 07:06.06 | Wonka | hmm... |
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| 07:15.36 | badcloud | I might be shouted off this channel for blasphemous thougts, but is there any way to run iphone apps on the fr? |
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| 07:19.38 | Heinervdm | badcloud: iPhone is armv7, isn't it? |
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| 07:28.55 | badcloud | Heinervdm: hmmm, I don't know |
| 07:29.01 | badcloud | that would really hamper the idea |
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| 07:35.47 | shaz | mrmoku: ERROR: Error Method already seen: devshell_emit_env in' devshell.bb' now in 'ti-devshell.bb' |
| 07:36.05 | shaz | The build is proceeding but is this fine |
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| 16:01.43 | yamitenshi | Hi |
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| 17:12.31 | yamitenshi | Hi, I have a little question. What would be the best distribution for daily use? |
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| 17:40.19 | gena2x | yamitenshi: qtmoko |
| 17:40.23 | gena2x | :) |
| 17:40.30 | gena2x | v22 |
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| 18:05.10 | yamitenshi | dammit, didn't see that the UI freezes when GPRS is set to always online xD Guess I'll have to reflash... oh well, seems to connect to my mobile network just fine, that's what's most important :) Thanks, gena2x :) |
| 18:07.06 | yamitenshi | Also, seems like app development isn't as much a pain as it was for Qtopia/Qt Extended :D |
| 18:09.16 | gena2x | qtmoko have debian under feet so you may just compile stuff natively |
| 18:09.43 | gena2x | and all tools available in one apt-get install |
| 18:10.44 | gena2x | combined with stable telephony and fast gui i think this is very good solution |
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| 18:13.27 | PaulFertser | It lacks my emacs UI, i think that's a major drawback ;) |
| 18:14.18 | gena2x | Paul, i guess emacs -nw will work in terminal :P |
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| 18:14.26 | thrashold | I want Vim UI! |
| 18:15.01 | thrashold | (Also, ScummVM UI would make sense, too, it's fast-ah) |
| 18:15.14 | thrashold | It's the fastest thing I have on my phone |
| 18:15.22 | thrashold | Or the only thing that isn't slow? |
| 18:16.00 | thrashold | Unless I run The Curse of Monkey Island there, if I do, it's just a bit slower than Enlightenment |
| 18:17.58 | thrashold | Maybe I should fork it |
| 18:19.27 | djp_ | has the latest shr-unstable release (17.5.2010) fixed the suspend issue? (basically, unable to bring shr-unstable back to life if the freerunner is suspended) |
| 18:19.34 | gena2x | qtmoko is not slow |
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| 18:19.49 | gena2x | at all |
| 18:20.05 | yamitenshi | From what I see, it's pretty fast |
| 18:20.39 | thrashold | Cna you do PyQt there? |
| 18:20.54 | djp_ | gena2x: do you recommend qtmoko over shr-unstable? i'm currently finding that shr-unstable has issues with suspend, which is meaning my freerunner's battery is struggling to last a day |
| 18:21.23 | gena2x | ok,ok sd card is not fast, and compilation is a bit slow but everything else is ok |
| 18:22.42 | gena2x | djp_: i not aware of current SHR state. last time i saw it where were still no nodebug pathes. |
| 18:23.38 | yamitenshi | thrashold: I don't see why not |
| 18:24.03 | thrashold | yamitenshi: Because I couldn't with Qtopia back then :) (There weren't any Python bindings, etc.) |
| 18:24.15 | gena2x | djp_: about battery, my observations is that qtmoko consume more battery than shr, but i really don't care and didn't done precise measurements |
| 18:24.44 | gena2x | djp_: i am just keeping phone always connected to charger |
| 18:24.46 | yamitenshi | thrashold: This is just debian with Qt Extended on top, so python shouldn't be a problem, I guess |
| 18:25.04 | djp_ | gena2x: ah, ok. thanks for the info. |
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| 18:25.52 | thrashold | yamitenshi: Does this use special replace qt libraries to work? |
| 18:25.57 | thrashold | replaced |
| 18:26.01 | gena2x | djp_: only thing i notice about battery is once i forgot phone in bag and put it out after 2 or 3 days and were sure it were discharged. |
| 18:26.12 | yamitenshi | thrashold: not that I know of, not sure though |
| 18:26.29 | yamitenshi | I guess you could just install Qt though, from the debian repos |
| 18:26.30 | gena2x | djp_: but i was wrong, i resume it and got half of charge |
| 18:26.57 | gena2x | djp_: think this is effect of 1024 fix. (thanks to Paul) |
| 18:27.53 | thrashold | yamitenshi: This would make it pointless, the idea is to create Python apps that don't require X :) |
| 18:28.05 | yamitenshi | hmm |
| 18:28.32 | yamitenshi | not sure that can be done with qtmoko... I don't really do python :P |
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| 18:33.17 | PaulFertser | gena2x: of course it will, but there's no FSO api available. |
| 18:33.40 | PaulFertser | thrashold: in fact i'm considering learning Haskell and writing vim-inspired ncurses FSO ui ;) |
| 18:33.46 | yamitenshi | Also, I was wondering, for some distros I see modules-blahblah.tgz files, what exactly are these for? |
| 18:34.33 | thrashold | PaulFertser: Haskell? :/ At least go for Scheme or Erlang or something sane :D |
| 18:35.06 | PaulFertser | thrashold: well, lisp and haskell are like two poles of FP. |
| 18:35.27 | PaulFertser | thrashold: lisp is elegance through simplicity, haskell is power through complexity. |
| 18:35.31 | PaulFertser | ;) |
| 18:35.39 | PaulFertser | At least to my uneducated pov. |
| 18:35.45 | thrashold | Anything that features complexity is something I stay away from :D |
| 18:35.52 | PaulFertser | thrashold: i see no reason to do UI in erlang at all. |
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| 18:36.10 | thrashold | No, but I'd rather learn Erlang than learn Haskell |
| 18:36.40 | PaulFertser | thrashold: why? Now i'm really convinced that any CS-loving person should be exposed to Haskell to at least some degree. |
| 18:36.45 | thrashold | It has more than the 3 programs written in Haskell |
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| 18:37.14 | thrashold | And one of them is even useful (and I have used it) |
| 18:37.15 | PaulFertser | thrashold: Haskell is the best example of modern FP. |
| 18:37.26 | PaulFertser | thrashold: i'm going to start using xmonad really soon. |
| 18:37.49 | thrashold | The only Haskell program that I could think that anyone would use is GHC :D |
| 18:37.51 | PaulFertser | thrashold: btw, as far as i could understand, F# takes a lot from Haskell, even ms understands its value. |
| 18:38.39 | thrashold | I don't think that something that Microsoft likes is a good indicator for anything |
| 18:39.20 | thrashold | And hey, I have written a min function in Haskell! |
| 18:39.23 | PaulFertser | thrashold: i say that to demonstrate Haskell concepts are not insane or overly complex. |
| 18:40.21 | thrashold | Vala uses many C concepts, which doesn't mean that writing C isn't overly complex |
| 18:40.54 | PaulFertser | Hm, i'm not sure Vala uses C concepts, can you give a few examples? |
| 18:41.36 | thrashold | Just the fact that it is C-like should be enough (although I'm not sure if C is the first C-like language?) |
| 18:41.59 | PaulFertser | thrashold: being C-like is not a concept. And i do not see how Vala is C-like |
| 18:43.02 | PaulFertser | thrashold: i mean Vala is said to by like Python and C#, borrowing heavily from those languages. |
| 18:45.11 | PaulFertser | yamitenshi: you need kernel modules matching the kernel you use. |
| 18:45.44 | yamitenshi | PaulFertser: don't they come with the rootfs? |
| 18:45.44 | PaulFertser | yamitenshi: the modules are loaded from /lib/modules/`uname -r` |
| 18:45.52 | PaulFertser | yamitenshi: what if you change the kernel? |
| 18:45.52 | thrashold | imperative, structured, has the same syntax ( { } for blocks, ( ) for functions, etc.), has the simple types of C (with different name), has pointers |
| 18:46.05 | yamitenshi | PaulFertser: hmm, good point :P |
| 18:46.47 | thrashold | has low-level memory stuff (I have not used any language but C and Cython that has this) |
| 18:46.55 | PaulFertser | thrashold: well, pointers is something uncommon for modern imperative languages, yes. Other than that... |
| 18:47.17 | thrashold | Most modern imperative languages are also C-like |
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| 18:48.44 | thrashold | My point was that if you take concepts froms omething complex, the result might be simple. |
| 18:49.02 | PaulFertser | thrashold: using {} for blocks etc means nothing. And btw, do you know the next C++ standard has support for lambdas? And that C++'s templates are in fact a full-featured compile-time language on its own? |
| 18:49.13 | thrashold | and F# doesn't look like something I'd want to go near anyway (well, after first look at the syntax, which might be deceptive, but still) |
| 18:49.35 | thrashold | The last thing sounds awful |
| 18:49.47 | thrashold | But that's what I've always thought of C++ anyway :D |
| 18:50.28 | PaulFertser | thrashold: you might say C++ is also C-like but i do not think it's quite true. As to the advanced templates techniques, take a look at the list of the projects using the Boost library. |
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| 18:51.47 | PaulFertser | thrashold: lol, and also you might enjoy boost's preprocessor library, that's mad insane stuff. |
| 18:52.19 | thrashold | Oh? What does that even mean? They use different language than CPP? |
| 18:52.27 | thrashold | or what? |
| 18:52.52 | PaulFertser | thrashold: they (ab)use the C preprocessor in a very creative way to get some very important features for meta-programming. |
| 18:52.55 | thrashold | Also: \http://conal.net/blog/posts/the-c-language-is-purely-functional/ |
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| 18:53.58 | thrashold | Also there's a turing machine written in CPP that won the ioccc |
| 18:54.04 | djp_ | are there any other people here who use shr-unstable on their freerunner? |
| 18:56.32 | PaulFertser | thrashold: lol |
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| 18:59.14 | thrashold | For any turing machine, the compiled program will have O(1) execution time for *any* problem, thus spitting out the solution to a NP-complete problem in constant time |
| 18:59.21 | thrashold | It can be useful for the FR |
| 18:59.35 | thrashold | if you wrote a program in CPP, it would run insanely fast after compilation :D |
| 19:00.09 | thrashold | Like, running it would take no time at all (which could be a problem for programs in a sleep loop) |
| 19:00.13 | mickeyl | notes all is moot when you have to wait for the hardware |
| 19:00.50 | thrashold | It won't matter, the program won't wait for the hardware, but it already has (during compilation) |
| 19:03.20 | djp_ | PaulFertser: what distro are you currently using on your freerunner? |
| 19:03.48 | mjr | IIRC CPP isn't actually Turing-complete and what they did do with it was a Towers of Hanoi solver |
| 19:04.29 | PaulFertser | djp_: debian |
| 19:04.44 | PaulFertser | djp_: i've written a mail to the community mailing list describing my setup lately. |
| 19:04.52 | thrashold | mjr: You can run always CPP twice. |
| 19:05.16 | PaulFertser | djp_: it's debian with natively compiled FSO+FSO2 (from git HEAD), and an Emacs UI. |
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| 19:08.12 | djp_ | PaulFertser: thanks. yes, far more advanced than little me! ;) i use my freerunner as a basic mobile phone. shr-unstable has really improved for that, regards call quality. unfortunately the suspend issue that has started to appear, means that without suspend on, i get roughly 11 hours of battery life :( |
| 19:09.33 | PaulFertser | djp_: are you using .32 kernel? |
| 19:09.52 | PaulFertser | djp_: because if yes, there're still problems with it. |
| 19:10.07 | PaulFertser | djp_: basically, most SHR developers use unstable and suspend works for them. |
| 19:11.24 | yamitenshi | djp_: can you tell me what the advantages and disadvantages of unstable as opposed to testing are? |
| 19:11.53 | djp_ | PaulFertser: using uImage-om-gta02-latest.bin dated 13.5.2010 |
| 19:12.02 | gena2x | PaulFertser: FSO api is not target i think. mine target is stable sms/gsm. nothing more from phone side. so why fso? |
| 19:12.03 | thrashold | djp_: uname -a ? |
| 19:12.25 | djp_ | thrashold: let me check... |
| 19:12.54 | djp_ | thrashold: it needs to power up... battery has run dry ;) |
| 19:13.07 | gena2x | PaulFertser: also i guess that one day qt can be ported to X11, so it can work in line with other X programs. |
| 19:14.39 | PaulFertser | gena2x: qt telephony stack proved to be sucky from hacker's pov, so i do not care about it. |
| 19:14.58 | PaulFertser | gena2x: if it didn't suck, OM2008 would be a success. |
| 19:15.37 | djp_ | thrashold: 2.6.29-rc3 |
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| 19:16.08 | PaulFertser | gena2x: and keep in mind FSO is not only GSM phone calls API, it also includes many other things really needed for a smartphone. |
| 19:16.13 | gena2x | PaulFertser: (whisper) I just fond of C++. :) |
| 19:16.48 | djp_ | PaulFertser: so no, i'm not using the .32 kernel... |
| 19:16.48 | PaulFertser | gena2x: Qt is not "true" C++, that's rather a very small subset of it. They're not even STL-compatible really. |
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| 19:16.56 | PaulFertser | djp_: what bootloader are you using? |
| 19:17.35 | PaulFertser | gena2x: Qt's C++ is like Java, to get stupid coders happy. |
| 19:17.40 | PaulFertser | IMHO |
| 19:17.43 | gena2x | PaulFertser: The templates is not "only valid true" C++ |
| 19:17.53 | djp_ | PaulFertser: qi |
| 19:18.05 | PaulFertser | gena2x: the Qt preprocessor is not C++ at all. |
| 19:18.22 | PaulFertser | djp_: reasonably new, i hope? |
| 19:18.30 | gena2x | PaulFertser: In c++ you can write as in C, with or without templates, with or without classes and this still be C++ |
| 19:18.32 | PaulFertser | djp_: are you running from NAND or SD? |
| 19:18.38 | djp_ | PaulFertser: NAND |
| 19:18.55 | gena2x | PaulFertser: Only different people start to throw boulders on you :) |
| 19:19.04 | djp_ | PaulFertser: i haven't updated the bootloader since last year... probably a year old to be honest |
| 19:19.10 | PaulFertser | gena2x: templates are the distinguishing feature of C++, it's the core making it as power as it might get. |
| 19:19.23 | max_posedon | PaulFertser, Qt "not compatible" - BS, Qt is like Java - BS, Qt preprocessor - not C++ - true, but C/C++ haven't preprocessors |
| 19:19.24 | PaulFertser | djp_: hm, i do not think it can influence it. |
| 19:19.35 | max_posedon | compiler have preprocessors, not the language |
| 19:19.45 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: preprocessor is part of the language. |
| 19:20.04 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: Qt doesn't use native STL containers and other nice features. |
| 19:20.05 | djp_ | PaulFertser: the problem has only reared its head since the last few updates |
| 19:20.06 | max_posedon | preprocessor can be part of library |
| 19:20.15 | max_posedon | PaulFertser, doesn't use != not compatible |
| 19:20.17 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: library is part of the language. |
| 19:20.26 | max_posedon | only if it comes in stdlib |
| 19:20.29 | PaulFertser | standard library |
| 19:20.32 | gena2x | PaulFertser: the goal is not always get unltimate power. goal is to do stable predictable system, easy to understand support and extend. |
| 19:20.39 | PaulFertser | CPP is part of the language, STL is part of the language. |
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| 19:21.04 | gena2x | PaulFertser: So, everything must be used as needed |
| 19:21.12 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: i meant Qt makes C++ as easy as Java |
| 19:21.32 | PaulFertser | makes C++ _seem_ |
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| 19:21.49 | max_posedon | PaulFertser, hm, its not so bad) |
| 19:21.52 | djp_ | PaulFertser: maybe i should just drop back to an earlier version of shr-unstable/kernel and see if the problem disappears. then i'll definitely know it's related to the latest release |
| 19:22.03 | gena2x | PaulFertser: I don't think so. C++ have poiters. C++ is standard. C++ is natively compiled |
| 19:22.05 | PaulFertser | And then some jerks will brag they know C++ while not knowing a tiny bit about the real power of C++. |
| 19:22.24 | PaulFertser | djp_: do you have _any_ feedback after you try to resume? |
| 19:22.44 | PaulFertser | gena2x: i'm afraid you do not get my point |
| 19:22.56 | gena2x | PaulFertser: I saw multimillium lines projects without any templates written in C++. |
| 19:23.34 | djp_ | PaulFertser: when i press the button to resume, the screen flashes, appears totally black and then there is a flashing cursor "_" in the top left corner of the screen |
| 19:23.46 | PaulFertser | gena2x: i do not like Qt because it somehow simplifies C++ to the point "bidlocoders" can like it. I think a modern UI toolkit written in C++ can be 10x more elegant if it used "advanced" C++ techniques. |
| 19:23.56 | gena2x | PaulFertser: I just enumerated some differences C++ vs java. |
| 19:23.59 | PaulFertser | djp_: what about usb networking? |
| 19:24.10 | PaulFertser | gena2x: you took my comparision too literally. |
| 19:25.02 | max_posedon | Advanced C++ techniques usually have 10x compile time) |
| 19:25.31 | gena2x | PaulFertser: things i enumerated are very important, so it's hard to say that Java is equal to C++ |
| 19:25.35 | PaulFertser | gena2x: i'm unhappy with Qt because it's the most widely known and used C++ toolkit while being not elegant in a C++ way. If they had rewritten the Qt with all the features from STL and Boost around Qt3-Qt4, it'd be a really elegant design. |
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| 19:26.02 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: was true but it changed a lot with gcc 4.5, really. |
| 19:26.05 | gena2x | PaulFertser: I did some job with Qt last year. |
| 19:26.13 | max_posedon | it was 100x before |
| 19:26.17 | PaulFertser | Heh |
| 19:26.20 | max_posedon | with gcc-4.5 its just 10x |
| 19:26.43 | gena2x | PaulFertser: I don't like this direction (STL -> own) also, but this don't make qt worse |
| 19:26.50 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: you should write good code and think in advance, then compilation time doesn't matter. ;) |
| 19:27.13 | max_posedon | such nice utopia) |
| 19:27.17 | djp_ | PaulFertser: not sure... shall i try now and enable suspend? |
| 19:27.33 | PaulFertser | djp_: try suspending with echo mem > /sys/power/state |
| 19:27.44 | djp_ | PaulFertser: will do |
| 19:27.51 | gena2x | PaulFertser: At work, you ofter have to archieve result fast (at least faster than others). And qt is extremly good for C++ people. |
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| 19:28.37 | gena2x | PaulFertser: Otherwise c-shrpers just kill you. |
| 19:28.39 | PaulFertser | gena2x: well, i do not care about UI much, but i like elegant and powerful things. The way Qt uses C++ is neither elegant, nor powerful, at least it doesn't seem so to anybody who knows C++ a little bit more than an average coder. |
| 19:30.24 | PaulFertser | gena2x: so my unhappiness with Qt is that it's inelegant. Not talking about fast or convenient, as i'm not interested in that. |
| 19:30.55 | gena2x | PaulFertser: Signal slot concept is good - why not? |
| 19:31.12 | gena2x | PaulFertser: Nothing more 'custom' in qt i think. |
| 19:31.25 | max_posedon | PaulFertser, "advanced" C++ don't know about threads |
| 19:31.32 | PaulFertser | gena2x: because they use an external preprocessor (which is ugly by design) instead of switching to a pure C++ implementation (libsigc++). |
| 19:31.33 | max_posedon | don't care about thread safety |
| 19:31.56 | djp_ | PaulFertser: ok, suspended it using echo mem... shall i try and bring it out of suspend by pressing the button? |
| 19:32.02 | PaulFertser | djp_: yes |
| 19:32.12 | max_posedon | its stupid compare structures which ready to multi threads and which not |
| 19:32.16 | gena2x | threadsafe is other complex problem... |
| 19:32.26 | max_posedon | its stupid compare COW and not COW structures |
| 19:32.29 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: yes, thread safety is out of the consideration here |
| 19:32.34 | djp_ | PaulFertser: ok... i'll give it a minute or two. it only seems to have the issue if left for a couple of minutes... |
| 19:33.00 | max_posedon | PaulFertser, Qt structures - cow, stl not cow |
| 19:33.39 | max_posedon | stl not better than qt structs, qt structs not better than stl |
| 19:33.44 | max_posedon | they just different! |
| 19:34.12 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: the upcoming standard has support for multithreading |
| 19:34.33 | max_posedon | but COW for stl doesn't comes |
| 19:34.53 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: Qt strikes for simplicity and ease of use, i do not like those goals. |
| 19:34.59 | gena2x | max_posedon: qt stl and c++ all have ordinary structures, what do you mean? |
| 19:35.19 | max_posedon | gena2x, they haven't |
| 19:35.44 | gena2x | max_posedon: can you describe the difference? |
| 19:35.48 | max_posedon | gena2x, look at qt's implementation |
| 19:36.00 | max_posedon | when you have smth big(1'000'000 qlist) |
| 19:36.01 | gena2x | struct ABC { int a; };? |
| 19:36.03 | djp_ | PaulFertser: ok, it came out of suspend ok. by the way, how do i get activity back at my prompt on my computer? |
| 19:36.07 | max_posedon | and when you doing, copy |
| 19:36.22 | PaulFertser | djp_: activity? |
| 19:36.52 | max_posedon | its just doing refcount++ |
| 19:37.13 | djp_ | PaulFertser: my command prompt where i typed echo mem... is just flashing "_" |
| 19:37.29 | PaulFertser | djp_: for me ssh resumes operation on its own |
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| 19:37.36 | PaulFertser | djp_: i mean i do nothing extra |
| 19:37.36 | gena2x | max_posedon: I though this is only for small set of QObjects |
| 19:37.37 | djp_ | PaulFertser: basically, it hasn't returned to the prompt |
| 19:37.50 | djp_ | PaulFertser: ok |
| 19:38.36 | max_posedon | gena2x, its for all |
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| 19:38.51 | max_posedon | and if you doing developemnt on qt, its good idea do the same for your structures |
| 19:39.54 | gena2x | max_posedon: I did multithreaded development with qt. |
| 19:40.22 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: i'm not sure lazy copy for containers is a generally good idea |
| 19:40.42 | gena2x | max_posedon: I think everything must be used in appopriate places |
| 19:41.00 | gena2x | max_posedon: So, add recounting only then they are really needed |
| 19:41.16 | max_posedon | doesn't means what we think, real programs and tests are proofs |
| 19:41.18 | djp_ | PaulFertser: ok... it seems that it will come out of suspend when i issue the command to suspend it from the command prompt. however, i always need to kill my ssh process to get any further response from my computer |
| 19:41.20 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: and you can add cow easily whenever you need that |
| 19:42.02 | max_posedon | not so easy, for stl structs |
| 19:42.20 | max_posedon | it will kills most of their features |
| 19:43.37 | gena2x | max_posedon: why use refcounting if you can just use pointer? |
| 19:43.59 | PaulFertser | gena2x: if you take a look at where C++ is going (lead by the leading experts in the area) you'll see it bears no resemblance with what Qt fans are doing. |
| 19:44.19 | PaulFertser | s/pointer/smart pointer/ |
| 19:45.09 | max_posedon | gena2x, to be able *copy* |
| 19:45.23 | max_posedon | sometimes you need make changes, in say, 5% cases |
| 19:45.31 | gena2x | max_posedon: you always can copy. |
| 19:45.41 | max_posedon | and code will be full of copy |
| 19:46.03 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: smart pointers can help implementing COW |
| 19:46.52 | gena2x | max_posedon: And you do not want to know where 5mb QImage copy occur :)? |
| 19:48.31 | gena2x | max_posedon: nothing wrong with copy in code. why not? get any C++ program without any COW and you'll that where is not so much copy as you want :) |
| 19:48.52 | PaulFertser | Hehe, here the Qt guy explains why they're not using advanced features: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/08/25/count-with-me-how-many-smart-pointer-classes-does-qt-have/ |
| 19:50.08 | max_posedon | gena2x, I know when, but I do want a compiler support to checks. |
| 19:50.36 | gena2x | max_posedon: checks??? what kind of checks? |
| 19:51.09 | max_posedon | mainly const checks |
| 19:51.12 | PaulFertser | All the reasons listed by that Qt dev are not important for me, in fact it's the opposite. |
| 19:51.29 | gena2x | max_posedon: (I don't like any extra checks) |
| 19:51.40 | max_posedon | but, I do) |
| 19:52.29 | max_posedon | I don't want prove that qt is the best, I just want to say, that all qt desisions was done keeping some use cases in mind |
| 19:52.42 | max_posedon | and I think, they do the best system for writing GUI apps |
| 19:53.05 | max_posedon | qt might be not nice for server side, for console tools |
| 19:53.18 | max_posedon | but as for GUI - the are rocks imho |
| 19:53.25 | gena2x | max_posedon: I like qt too. May be i just didn't anything better for gui. If something exist - point me :) |
| 19:54.00 | PaulFertser | "Binary compatibility policies", ewww, fuck them |
| 19:54.16 | max_posedon | I did gtk, I did opengl, I did some-custom-game-ui, I did wx |
| 19:54.29 | gena2x | max_posedon: And Paul seem just like man who naver were forced to write GUI. |
| 19:54.40 | max_posedon | he is happy man, imho) |
| 19:54.50 | gena2x | max_posedon: Sure :) |
| 19:56.14 | gena2x | PaulFertser: Binary compatibility is very important thing... |
| 19:56.26 | PaulFertser | gena2x: how's so? |
| 19:56.36 | max_posedon | its not important when you compile coreutils |
| 19:56.44 | max_posedon | but if you have system like a KDE... |
| 19:57.13 | PaulFertser | gena2x: i did write several small gui utilities recently for the host. I choosed C and gtk for the task, it was ok for me. |
| 19:57.14 | max_posedon | and if you have a team > 100 people working on one project |
| 19:57.39 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: i also did some delphi programming 10 years ago and "c++builder" about 3 years ago. |
| 19:58.22 | PaulFertser | I even know/knew some winapi, mfc and wtl! |
| 19:59.10 | max_posedon | )) |
| 19:59.39 | PaulFertser | And i'm fucking unhappy mostly, but i guess that's unrelated to GUI programming. |
| 20:00.01 | PaulFertser | That doesn't mean binary compatibility worth anything though. |
| 20:00.09 | gena2x | ok, ok we went for far in discrussion and topic became so wide while particular question are left undecided and nobody comvienced |
| 20:00.12 | PaulFertser | You just recompile the thing, that's all. |
| 20:00.39 | PaulFertser | Gentooers do recompile of everything every now and then, not a big deal. |
| 20:01.08 | gena2x | no-no, don't make topic even wider! |
| 20:01.26 | PaulFertser | gena2x: binary compatibility is the most important point i found in that blogpost. |
| 20:02.05 | PaulFertser | gena2x: (making the topic wider would be if i offered to discuss "why life sucks and what to do about it" in details) |
| 20:03.11 | gena2x | <PaulFertser> And i'm fucking unhappy ... :) |
| 20:03.12 | PaulFertser | And making it narrower would be going back to "why hackers do not like qtopia phone stack". |
| 20:03.23 | PaulFertser | It wasn't an offer to discuss. |
| 20:03.42 | gena2x | and <PaulFertser> Gentooers ... :) |
| 20:04.03 | PaulFertser | gena2x: yep, to proof the idea binary compatibility worth nothing |
| 20:04.15 | PaulFertser | s/proof/prove/ |
| 20:04.22 | yamitenshi | Wait, is this turning into a discussion about how wide this topic really is now? :P |
| 20:04.55 | PaulFertser | Meta-discussion, just in the spirit of previous "should C++ have meta-programming" topic :))) |
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| 20:06.05 | yamitenshi | Heheh, half of the talk here is Chinese to me anyway :P I can do some fairly simple things, but that's pretty much it :') |
| 20:06.40 | PaulFertser | Same for me, as i do not know much about C++ in fact ;) |
| 20:06.48 | PaulFertser | I just use some buzzwords |
| 20:07.08 | gena2x | PaulFertser: In fact i need a day to write good arguments for each point of our discussion |
| 20:07.39 | PaulFertser | gena2x: of course, and a day before to agree on the points themselves. |
| 20:07.57 | PaulFertser | gena2x: i'm not sure either of us want to spend the effort really. |
| 20:08.08 | gena2x | PaulFertser: and as I have no discussion become useless :( |
| 20:08.21 | PaulFertser | It's just that i would rather spend my personal time learning Gtk than my work time learning Qt. |
| 20:12.25 | max_posedon | I suggest learn qt implementation |
| 20:12.39 | max_posedon | there is some nice ideas inside |
| 20:12.45 | max_posedon | (if you want C++ of course) |
| 20:14.38 | PaulFertser | If i learned C++, i'd learn boost, metaprogramming and other "advanced" topics. |
| 20:15.57 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: also, i read trolltech patch submitting rules once. |
| 20:16.18 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: they're so horrible that the product worth boycotting |
| 20:16.54 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: basically it's "give us BSD licensed patches and if we decide so, you can get them back GPLd some time later" |
| 20:17.02 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: that was before Qt went LGPL |
| 20:17.21 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: but this kind of policy is an eternal taint in my pov. |
| 20:18.00 | max_posedon | I don't allow any politics be more important than technical side |
| 20:18.24 | PaulFertser | I do not allow any technical shit be more important than morals. |
| 20:19.43 | PaulFertser | It doesn't matter if you friend can code GUI an a fast and nice way, but it does matter you trust him to not screw you ever. |
| 20:20.03 | PaulFertser | (time to sleep now for me, apparently, too many typos :|) |
| 20:20.05 | gena2x | PaulFertser: I just want to go back a bit to beginning :). to summarize - good side of qtmoko for me is C++ (contrary to python of vala). Nothing wrong that only subset of C++ used in qt, in fact i like exactly this subset which used qt, not othercompications of templates. |
| 20:21.01 | gena2x | PaulFertser: all-in-one of FSO is questinable |
| 20:21.14 | PaulFertser | FSO is a set of APIs. |
| 20:21.32 | PaulFertser | gena2x: implemented in different daemons now |
| 20:21.37 | slaxxer | wine anybody |
| 20:21.54 | PaulFertser | You can use any combination the way you want it. |
| 20:22.08 | yamitenshi | slaxxer: No thanks, I'm a beer guy ;) |
| 20:22.16 | slaxxer | ::)) |
| 20:22.17 | PaulFertser | slaxxer: i'd like some... |
| 20:22.32 | gena2x | i prefer pure water :) |
| 20:22.43 | yamitenshi | vodka? :P |
| 20:23.06 | gena2x | no, this is not water for me. |
| 20:23.07 | slaxxer | i was speaking of wine "the emulator thats not an emulator |
| 20:23.09 | gena2x | :) |
| 20:23.17 | PaulFertser | Vodka is strange: doesn't make much sense unless you have some good stuff to eat along with it. |
| 20:23.20 | yamitenshi | it's russian for water :P |
| 20:23.55 | PaulFertser | yamitenshi: please tell us more about russian, we're all ears ;) |
| 20:24.00 | yamitenshi | slaxxer: windows sucks anyway, why try to not-really-emulate it? :P |
| 20:24.09 | slaxxer | yea |
| 20:24.21 | yamitenshi | PaulFertser: it's 33.33333% of all the russian I know :P |
| 20:24.21 | *** join/#openmoko [Rui] (~Rui@a85-138-38-98.cpe.netcabo.pt) |
| 20:24.36 | gena2x | yamitenshi: increase you counter by 3 |
| 20:24.57 | gena2x | so you have now 11%. |
| 20:25.25 | PaulFertser | yamitenshi: i suggest this to vastly improve your knowledge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_mat |
| 20:25.42 | gena2x | and no, please, don't finish interesting discussion with nations!!! |
| 20:26.09 | gena2x | :) I've gone to my bluetooth... |
| 20:27.02 | yamitenshi | xD |
| 20:27.32 | yamitenshi | PaulFertser: Might actually be useful at work, if I can ever pronounce the words right :P |
| 20:27.43 | yamitenshi | not that anyone here notices if I pronounce them wrong :P |
| 20:28.27 | PaulFertser | yamitenshi: mad useful at work, in fact we use that every day. |
| 20:28.37 | yamitenshi | lol |
| 20:28.54 | slaxxer | i was under the inpression the reason for switching to vala was to change things to c++ |
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| 20:29.07 | slaxxer | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:30.24 | PaulFertser | slaxxer: vala compiles to C which compiles to fast native code |
| 20:37.56 | PaulFertser | yamitenshi: there was once a funny occassion at my uni. I was at the exam, there also were my students, my friend and the other teacher (female). One of the students asked me to look at his code, i came and saw some horror, commented on that and got back to talking with my friend. And then i saw the other teacher looking at me in a very surprised and worried way. And my friend told me: "Paul, have you gone mad, why are you |
| 20:38.03 | PaulFertser | ... realised my comment on the code was entirely obscene (i thought i whispered it but said aloud in fact). |
| 20:38.21 | PaulFertser | Hm, too bad he left, otoh i doubt my "stories" worth anything anyway |
| 20:41.19 | PaulFertser | I hoped my soft worth a bit more but judging by the amount of interest in my latest "achivement"... Screw this, i gotta sleep now, to prepare for another rainy day. |
| 20:42.45 | gena2x | Paul, here is few people |
| 20:42.58 | gena2x | Even fewer use emacs |
| 20:43.03 | PaulFertser | gena2x: i announced it on the community ML |
| 20:43.41 | gena2x | Even fewer have time/interest/environment to test you work |
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| 20:45.05 | PaulFertser | gena2x: i left work today when i hoped the rain was over, and it wasn't, and another thunderstorm broke out, it was mad cold as i had no proper clothing except for the minimal cycling sportswear, and after i couldn't ride anymore due to cold i had to go with my bicycle via the underground. |
| 20:46.43 | PaulFertser | gena2x: and it's not a matter of testing, it's a matter of using. It's sad emacs is out of favour among modern programmers. And most are too conservative (or not caring about learning interesting stuff) to even try to learn it... |
| 20:46.56 | gena2x | ... So according to what i said before it's strange to expect anything laud about your work. |
| 20:48.03 | gena2x | It's in my personal favor. It lack major features for programmers - you know. Like intellisence |
| 20:48.50 | PaulFertser | And when i researched some wifi driver topics it didn't bring much either: there's still plenty of stupid questions like "mokoconnect doesn't work, are we all going to die?" |
| 20:48.54 | gena2x | Like code decent browsing (i know about csope) |
| 20:49.44 | gena2x | Paul, should i remind you reaction I had on my nodebug researh? |
| 20:50.24 | gena2x | So, resume: just have fun and do whatever you think should be done :) |
| 20:50.48 | PaulFertser | gena2x: (nodebug) no, it's something i thought of immediately after pressing RET |
| 20:53.02 | PaulFertser | gena2x: http://cedet.sourceforge.net/intellisense.shtml |
| 20:53.13 | gena2x | No-no-no. i know cedet! |
| 20:53.33 | gena2x | I attemped to use this for several years. |
| 20:53.55 | gena2x | but alwayes end up with grep and cscope |
| 20:54.01 | gena2x | :) |
| 20:55.23 | PaulFertser | ack is a better grep |
| 20:55.42 | gena2x | ack? |
| 20:55.52 | PaulFertser | http://betterthangrep.com/ |
| 21:16.00 | gena2x | Don't worth installing :) |
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| 21:16.53 | gena2x | if i really need Search - cscope and only cscope |
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| 22:52.40 | tomboy64 | is there a distro by now that supports reliable use of bluetooth headsets? |
| 22:52.57 | tomboy64 | uhm easy reliable use, that is |
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| 23:26.10 | tomboy64 | i take that as a no :( |
| 23:27.13 | slaxxer | well |
| 23:27.31 | slaxxer | using android or shr? |
| 23:27.49 | slaxxer | qt? |
| 23:28.08 | tomboy64 | shr |
| 23:28.23 | slaxxer | i think i heard that qtmoko was working |
| 23:28.34 | tomboy64 | hm interesting |
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| 23:30.19 | tomboy64 | do you know whether qtmoko works with navit? |
| 23:38.38 | slaxxer | works with tango |
| 23:39.58 | slaxxer | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Ajh |
| 23:40.12 | slaxxer | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:41.03 | slaxxer | shr needs to work |
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