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| 02:36.21 | voidwalker | hello people. just found out about this open moko thing |
| 02:36.25 | voidwalker | you should advertise more : ) |
| 02:36.44 | voidwalker | what i want, is a phone that can do encryption for voice gsm calls |
| 02:37.01 | voidwalker | is there such a software project for openmoko phones ? |
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| 02:37.28 | voidwalker | my phone has been abusively tapped by the police before, and i don't like not having privacy |
| 02:38.38 | voidwalker | so many people here but no reply :) |
| 02:39.11 | ndnihil | you'd need another, like-configured device on the other end of any such call |
| 02:39.20 | voidwalker | yeah that's why i'm asking |
| 02:39.22 | ndnihil | you can't just encrypt all your calls |
| 02:39.23 | voidwalker | to know how many mokos to buy |
| 02:39.28 | ndnihil | that's movie tech |
| 02:39.31 | voidwalker | i mean, freerunners |
| 02:39.34 | voidwalker | or whatever theyre called |
| 02:39.42 | voidwalker | movie tech ? not really |
| 02:39.47 | voidwalker | there is software available |
| 02:39.51 | voidwalker | just costs $3000 |
| 02:40.17 | ndnihil | there is no software at all that will encrypt your calls without there being another compatible device on the other end |
| 02:40.38 | voidwalker | ndnihil i didn't say i excluded that option |
| 02:41.07 | voidwalker | if there is such software for openmoko, then i will buy a phone for all of my friends |
| 02:41.08 | voidwalker | hehe |
| 02:41.42 | ndnihil | no, there is not any such software at this time that is pre-packaged for the OM phones |
| 02:42.17 | voidwalker | http://www.cellcrypt.com/details.html |
| 02:42.22 | voidwalker | this one works over the internet, useless |
| 02:42.44 | ndnihil | most such applications will be done over VOIP |
| 02:42.46 | voidwalker | you might as well use an open source internet telephony software that supports encryption |
| 02:46.44 | voidwalker | what is the network service name for making voice calls ? not data |
| 02:48.14 | voidwalker | well, any other ideas ? |
| 02:48.27 | voidwalker | https://www.gold-lock.com/app/en/product/GoldlockVersion5 |
| 02:49.21 | SpeedEvil | GSM |
| 02:49.32 | SpeedEvil | you cannot encrypt GSM-voice calls. |
| 02:49.45 | voidwalker | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:49.45 | voidwalker | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:49.46 | voidwalker | what is this ? |
| 02:49.47 | SpeedEvil | other than they are already encrypted (in places) |
| 02:50.01 | voidwalker | they are encrypted, but they are all recorded |
| 02:50.17 | voidwalker | police just has to ask the and the operator delivers the conversations |
| 02:50.22 | SpeedEvil | it's a direct data connection between phones at 9600? bps |
| 02:50.24 | voidwalker | that's how it works here, |
| 02:50.29 | SpeedEvil | however |
| 02:50.42 | SpeedEvil | it takes several-many seconds to setup a call |
| 02:50.55 | SpeedEvil | and it doesn't work for most people without getting the phone company to enable it |
| 02:51.04 | voidwalker | oh |
| 02:51.17 | voidwalker | probably not available here |
| 02:51.35 | SpeedEvil | push-talk encrypted over interenet would be quite simple |
| 02:52.29 | voidwalker | anything over internet would be simple |
| 02:53.18 | ndnihil | you and your friends should learn swahili, that would fool big brother |
| 02:54.33 | voidwalker | haha |
| 02:55.41 | raster | voidwalker: data calls literally are modem calls |
| 02:55.49 | raster | it may be digital from u to the cell tower |
| 02:56.07 | raster | but.. somehwree in the phone network it turns your data call into a modem - ie literally beeep biiiiiig bzzzzzt hshshhdhshshhshshshs |
| 02:56.12 | raster | good old analogue modem |
| 02:56.23 | raster | ie no different to dialup or fax |
| 02:56.34 | raster | after that though its a data link |
| 02:56.35 | voidwalker | there must be some genious who can figure out a solution to this |
| 02:57.00 | raster | and at that point its no different than doing IP over gprs and using tcp/ip, voip and encrypting your links |
| 02:57.07 | raster | (vpn's or anything else u desire) |
| 02:57.21 | raster | there isnt a solution |
| 02:57.31 | raster | because - a solution needs the telco to co-operate |
| 02:57.39 | raster | and the tecol doesnt care about your privacy |
| 02:57.49 | raster | as a telco they are, REQUIRED by law to allow tapping of your phone line |
| 02:58.04 | raster | it is the telco that would be punished for not doing it on request |
| 02:58.10 | raster | so they arent going to help you |
| 02:58.14 | voidwalker | hmm |
| 02:58.14 | raster | its not in their interest. |
| 02:58.23 | raster | tyhe only thing u can do is work around them |
| 02:58.34 | voidwalker | yes, how can i do that ? |
| 02:58.36 | raster | use existing connection methods that they happen to allow and encrypt |
| 02:58.42 | raster | ie - use voip |
| 02:58.58 | voidwalker | via gprs/3g/wifi ? |
| 02:58.59 | raster | thats the only thing that is likely going to also work contacting another party |
| 02:59.01 | raster | yes |
| 02:59.08 | raster | BUT the other end will need working voip too |
| 02:59.15 | voidwalker | yes.. |
| 02:59.22 | voidwalker | and data costs are very high |
| 02:59.38 | raster | yup |
| 02:59.44 | raster | thats the price u will pay |
| 02:59.51 | voidwalker | how would that work, i mean |
| 03:00.03 | voidwalker | the other end will have to be connected to the internet at all times |
| 03:00.04 | raster | well its no different to your pc |
| 03:00.08 | raster | its an ip connection |
| 03:00.08 | voidwalker | for it to receive the call |
| 03:00.10 | SpeedEvil | Obvious alternative is text encryption |
| 03:00.17 | raster | u can have any form of data go across it |
| 03:00.17 | SpeedEvil | encrypting SMS is moderately trivial |
| 03:00.30 | voidwalker | right ? |
| 03:00.38 | raster | SpeedEvil: u'd need the other end also to handle a decryption too ala data-calls or voip |
| 03:00.46 | SpeedEvil | oof course. |
| 03:00.48 | voidwalker | how would you signal the other phone that somebody is calling it |
| 03:00.51 | SpeedEvil | but it's somewhat easier. |
| 03:00.52 | raster | voidwalker: correct |
| 03:01.02 | voidwalker | that is highly impractical... |
| 03:01.08 | raster | voidwalker: your only real solution is to have all the parties you talk to use the same technology as you |
| 03:01.13 | raster | and thats not easy |
| 03:01.19 | voidwalker | to assure 100% coverage you would need it to be permanently with gprs on |
| 03:01.26 | raster | yup |
| 03:01.32 | raster | what u CAN do is use magic-sms's |
| 03:01.42 | raster | ie basically a binary encoded sms with a special instyruction |
| 03:01.51 | raster | "wake up and connect to gprs" |
| 03:01.51 | voidwalker | raster, as i said, i am willing to buy a phone to all my friends if it works |
| 03:01.52 | voidwalker | : )) |
| 03:02.07 | voidwalker | oh i see, yeah |
| 03:02.07 | raster | and at that point the other end will wake up for the sms, see it, read it and connct to the net (for a limited time) |
| 03:02.11 | raster | and then voip will work |
| 03:02.15 | raster | i'd add a delay to any call |
| 03:02.17 | raster | but it'd work |
| 03:02.18 | voidwalker | and that hasn't even been implemented yet, just theory on our part |
| 03:02.31 | raster | hasnt been implemented |
| 03:02.33 | raster | but can be |
| 03:02.48 | voidwalker | ok so what else is a freerunner phone good for ? i was on the order page |
| 03:02.57 | voidwalker | what neat little tricks/hacks can it do ? |
| 03:02.57 | ndnihil | raster: that's what I did to mimic the RIM push mechanism |
| 03:03.08 | voidwalker | i'm not a programmer, just an user |
| 03:03.38 | raster | ndnihil: yup. thats actuslly how these push mechanisms work |
| 03:03.45 | raster | magic-sms's for wakeup |
| 03:03.55 | raster | and then the phone/device "knows what to do" (poll for new stuff) |
| 03:04.12 | raster | voidwalker: u'll n3eed to become a programemr if uw ant to use a freerunenr sanely like u want |
| 03:05.15 | voidwalker | no time for that, when i was younger i thought i would become one, but life has taken another course |
| 03:05.15 | voidwalker | :) |
| 03:05.22 | ndnihil | or shell out some cash to a skilled ninja :) |
| 03:05.27 | voidwalker | i wanna hack molecules, not bits |
| 03:05.29 | voidwalker | hehe |
| 03:05.44 | raster | well then your other choice is to pay someone to make it happen for u |
| 03:05.55 | raster | might cost u a few thousand $ |
| 03:06.14 | voidwalker | cheaper to use code words i guess |
| 03:06.14 | voidwalker | :\ |
| 03:06.21 | raster | probably |
| 03:06.45 | voidwalker | arent there any radio frequencies that are open to use by the public ? |
| 03:06.57 | ndnihil | that depends on your local laws |
| 03:06.59 | voidwalker | something that goes a long way (distance) |
| 03:07.05 | raster | there are |
| 03:07.07 | ndnihil | no idea what romania has for frequency laws |
| 03:07.08 | raster | 2.4ghz or so |
| 03:07.13 | raster | thats what wifi uses |
| 03:07.17 | raster | and cordless phones and... |
| 03:07.18 | voidwalker | why doesnt anybody step up to make an open telecom network |
| 03:07.27 | ndnihil | because it's not profitable |
| 03:07.33 | voidwalker | fuck profit |
| 03:07.43 | raster | because no one has the money to build one |
| 03:07.46 | voidwalker | it could have like local radio towers |
| 03:07.53 | raster | bulding one that is vaguely usable means billions of $ |
| 03:07.57 | voidwalker | and they could all be linked to the internet |
| 03:07.57 | raster | just to get up and going |
| 03:08.02 | voidwalker | voip |
| 03:08.02 | raster | how will u make that $ back? |
| 03:08.07 | voidwalker | donations |
| 03:08.12 | ndnihil | hah |
| 03:08.15 | raster | hehehe |
| 03:08.16 | raster | good luck |
| 03:08.19 | ndnihil | good luck with that |
| 03:08.20 | raster | start one yourself |
| 03:08.22 | voidwalker | i have $1 mil |
| 03:08.26 | voidwalker | not barely enough |
| 03:08.30 | raster | set up a tower for the local "cell" to use |
| 03:08.37 | ndnihil | 1mil is nothing when you're talking about setting up a telecom company |
| 03:08.37 | raster | use a public open band |
| 03:08.40 | raster | they do exist |
| 03:08.41 | raster | i can tell u now |
| 03:08.52 | raster | u'll spend $10,000's (multiple) to get it set up |
| 03:09.00 | raster | and spend $1000's per year to just keep it running |
| 03:09.02 | voidwalker | A tower? |
| 03:09.06 | raster | yes |
| 03:09.08 | voidwalker | you mean an antenna |
| 03:09.09 | voidwalker | for gsm |
| 03:09.11 | raster | yes |
| 03:09.14 | raster | well for anything |
| 03:09.40 | raster | something that has a good position that has enough view of an area to be able to transmit/recieve to and from devices withing "radio sight" |
| 03:09.46 | raster | eg on top of a hill or a building etc. |
| 03:09.47 | voidwalker | oh well, if every rich person in a city would invest in that |
| 03:09.55 | raster | good luck |
| 03:10.01 | raster | i wouldnt - its a waste of money |
| 03:10.19 | raster | i have better things to do with my money - that actually i enjoy, or that make money. |
| 03:10.20 | voidwalker | it wouldnt be as reliable as payed networks, but it would be free |
| 03:10.27 | raster | this is just a good way to throw money away |
| 03:10.37 | raster | hehehe no chance |
| 03:10.39 | voidwalker | yeah but, fucking the system is more important than money |
| 03:10.40 | raster | and thats just 1 tower |
| 03:10.50 | voidwalker | something like a joint project |
| 03:10.52 | raster | the telcos u hate have 1000's and 1000's of them |
| 03:10.57 | voidwalker | like they did with the shared wireless access points |
| 03:11.05 | raster | and they are inter-connected and work |
| 03:11.41 | Kamping_Kaiser | iirc, optus claimed the value of their hardware in ~2005 was at $20million AU |
| 03:11.41 | Kamping_Kaiser | and thats without the telstra infrstructure they piggyback a lot of the time. |
| 03:11.45 | raster | and u pay a small amount every month to them for that existing workign network |
| 03:11.59 | raster | small compared to the $10,000's and $1000's per year to build/run a tower |
| 03:12.19 | raster | Kamping_Kaiser: 20mil? |
| 03:12.29 | raster | dont u mean billion? |
| 03:12.47 | raster | i think u dropped 3 zeros :) |
| 03:13.06 | Kamping_Kaiser | raster: possable, its a while since i looked up that particular stat :) |
| 03:13.30 | voidwalker | i don't get it why won't this work |
| 03:13.37 | voidwalker | there are lots of rich people everywhere |
| 03:13.51 | voidwalker | set up a tower, not necesarily gsm standard, but something else |
| 03:14.05 | raster | and those people are rich because they dont throw money away on stupid things like this :) |
| 03:14.05 | voidwalker | connect it to the net, and have a central mainframe connecting calls over voip |
| 03:14.07 | raster | gsm or not |
| 03:14.09 | Kamping_Kaiser | you know why they are rich? they don't spend their money on silly projects ;) |
| 03:14.09 | raster | it costs a lot |
| 03:14.12 | Kamping_Kaiser | oh snap. |
| 03:14.13 | raster | and its a money-sink |
| 03:14.24 | raster | Kamping_Kaiser: hehehehe |
| 03:14.25 | Kamping_Kaiser | voidwalker: if not gsm then what? |
| 03:14.31 | Kamping_Kaiser | voidwalker: you can't setup a telco using ISM band gear |
| 03:14.32 | raster | Kamping_Kaiser: maybe wifi |
| 03:14.38 | raster | wimax possibly |
| 03:14.42 | raster | (wibro) |
| 03:14.48 | raster | doesnt much matter |
| 03:15.01 | voidwalker | it has to be non-licensed/patented |
| 03:15.02 | voidwalker | so you can use it for free |
| 03:15.10 | raster | wifif is non-licensed |
| 03:15.18 | raster | any technology worth using it patented |
| 03:15.20 | voidwalker | but short range |
| 03:15.26 | raster | wimax is long-range |
| 03:15.51 | voidwalker | but you can't use that without paying right ? |
| 03:16.13 | Kamping_Kaiser | ACMA have rules blocking the use of ISM bands for commercial communications purposes |
| 03:16.19 | raster | u need to pay for the transmitters and hw |
| 03:17.41 | Kamping_Kaiser | and it has to be high power gear, no mater what band. |
| 03:18.07 | raster | Kamping_Kaiser: sure |
| 03:18.17 | raster | wimax i think tho is unlicensed and u dont need one |
| 03:18.22 | raster | u just need t6o pay for all the tower setups |
| 03:18.39 | raster | interconnects between towers and up to the rest of the net |
| 03:18.44 | raster | and that shit costs lots of $ |
| 03:18.49 | raster | thus my $10k+ range |
| 03:18.56 | Kamping_Kaiser | interesting. i've never looked into wimax |
| 03:20.42 | raster | http://www.wimax360.com/forum/topic/show?id=610217%3ATopic%3A63798 |
| 03:20.42 | raster | there we go |
| 03:20.50 | raster | I would say a good average is $15k for a base station and $500 for the CPE |
| 03:20.53 | raster | $15k |
| 03:21.07 | raster | for a wimax bast station |
| 03:21.25 | raster | pthat liekly doesnt include cost of power, land it sits on (u have to buy/rent the land or rooftop on building etc.) |
| 03:21.31 | raster | cost of maintenance |
| 03:21.41 | raster | (when shit breaks) |
| 03:22.02 | raster | as such a single wimax tower has range to cover several km range |
| 03:22.07 | raster | tho the more people on it the slower it gets |
| 03:22.17 | raster | so u need to pay for more tranciever units |
| 03:23.10 | *** join/#openmoko pcfe (n=pcfe@a88-115-8-243.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 03:24.05 | raster | also rememebr wimax is a "there now" tech |
| 03:24.09 | raster | LTE is what telcose are moving to for cellulare networks |
| 03:25.41 | raster | and lte an all-packet/ip based cellular network, is looking pretty nice in terms of speed, and probably support from telcos, etc. |
| 04:05.20 | *** join/#openmoko tenzind (n=tenzin@202.144.158.193) |
| 04:20.19 | slaxxer | we have a little guy in town that setup a slackware system an started setting up towers to cover a wireless internet access buisness an that didnt cots billions of dollars |
| 04:20.46 | slaxxer | #cough Cost# |
| 04:21.31 | raster | thats not across a whole country |
| 04:21.40 | raster | thats a few locations around a city |
| 04:21.43 | raster | easy enough to do |
| 04:21.54 | raster | and if only with wifi those spots are very small and ... spotty |
| 04:22.09 | raster | u want to cover enough area like a mobile phone network - u will spend billions |
| 04:23.08 | slaxxer | an investors expect a return |
| 04:23.26 | raster | yup |
| 04:23.38 | raster | no one is going to spend that kind of money and just give serivce away for free |
| 04:23.49 | raster | in the end all u do is replace one telco with another |
| 04:23.54 | raster | and in the end the aim will be to make a profit |
| 04:24.20 | slaxxer | open source energy would really piss a lot of people off an save the world at the same time |
| 04:24.29 | raster | yup |
| 04:24.53 | slaxxer | thats what i want some open source energy |
| 04:25.16 | raster | well u caqn get your own |
| 04:25.20 | raster | solar panels are a start |
| 04:25.23 | raster | wind turbines |
| 04:25.24 | raster | etc. |
| 04:25.27 | slaxxer | static |
| 04:26.14 | raster | open source isnt something u can apply to a commodity |
| 04:26.19 | raster | data trandfer is a commodity |
| 04:26.21 | raster | as is energy |
| 04:26.44 | raster | as long as its delivered to you and can be measured... |
| 04:26.52 | raster | open source is about sharing information and ideas |
| 04:27.03 | raster | it doesnt apply to energy, beer, etc. |
| 04:27.05 | slaxxer | maybe energy also |
| 04:27.20 | raster | source code is (almost) free to duplicate |
| 04:27.23 | raster | its just information |
| 04:27.54 | raster | energy cant be duplicated for free |
| 04:27.58 | raster | it can be generated |
| 04:28.05 | slaxxer | harnessed |
| 04:28.16 | slaxxer | directed |
| 04:28.25 | raster | but it costs a lot of $ to create the equiopment to harness/generate it |
| 04:28.29 | raster | unlike software |
| 04:28.36 | raster | so u cant apply the same principles |
| 04:31.56 | slaxxer | thats kinda my point . the things we use to harness these things we get energy from require mechanical things to work |
| 04:32.18 | raster | and then the energy u harness is finite |
| 04:32.20 | raster | unlike source |
| 04:32.23 | slaxxer | =maintenance |
| 04:32.26 | raster | u cant duplicate for free |
| 04:32.38 | raster | u produce 1 watt of power from solar or from hydro or wind |
| 04:32.42 | raster | doesnt much matter - its 1 watt |
| 04:32.48 | raster | u give that away - u dont have it anymore |
| 04:32.53 | raster | source is not the same |
| 04:32.54 | *** join/#openmoko pieterc (n=user@78-22-118-167.access.telenet.be) |
| 04:32.55 | raster | its information |
| 04:34.43 | *** join/#openmoko batti (n=batti@dslb-088-078-022-248.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 04:34.44 | raster | even if u look at it this way - it will keep generating power from (lets say the sun) all day every day |
| 04:34.47 | raster | as long as there is sun |
| 04:35.03 | slaxxer | thats a real problem |
| 04:35.09 | raster | and once the initial cost of buying the solar panel and setup is paid - the cost is "almost free" (beyond maintenance) |
| 04:35.13 | raster | it STILL is a finite resource |
| 04:35.22 | raster | that panel generates N watt hourse of power per day/year |
| 04:35.33 | raster | and when u give it to someone - u dont have the thing u gave |
| 04:35.35 | raster | its gone |
| 04:35.50 | raster | its a commodity like oil, or corn, or water. |
| 04:36.07 | raster | source is not. information is not. stories are not |
| 04:36.12 | raster | (as in books) |
| 04:36.15 | slaxxer | but static is very different |
| 04:36.23 | raster | once the initial cost of creation is paid for |
| 04:36.32 | raster | it can be duplicated and distributed for "almost" free |
| 04:36.46 | raster | and making another copy doesnt mean you lost the original |
| 04:37.45 | raster | u means static and in static electricity? |
| 04:40.09 | slaxxer | yes |
| 04:40.17 | slaxxer | very simple |
| 04:40.23 | raster | thats just the transfer of electrons from one place to another |
| 04:40.30 | raster | thsu creating a differential of charge |
| 04:40.46 | raster | no different |
| 04:40.53 | raster | that difference in charge is stored energy |
| 04:40.56 | raster | and that is finite |
| 04:40.59 | raster | like any energy |
| 04:41.03 | raster | u give ti away - u lost it |
| 04:41.07 | raster | u need to re-generate it |
| 04:41.20 | raster | and generating it is a finite activity |
| 04:41.25 | raster | like any other energy |
| 04:41.31 | raster | its just another energy storage mechanism |
| 04:41.45 | raster | but generation of it is just the same |
| 04:42.15 | slaxxer | yes but theres lots of static not being hasnessed right now |
| 04:42.31 | raster | doesnt matter |
| 04:42.33 | raster | still is finite |
| 04:42.37 | slaxxer | its here but not being used |
| 04:42.48 | raster | still is completely unlike source code so u cant apply open source philosophy to a commodity |
| 04:43.08 | slaxxer | theres not a limited # of static |
| 04:43.17 | raster | and thats the same for sunlight (solar power), wind, wave and many other forms of energy |
| 04:43.26 | raster | there is a limited amount |
| 04:43.31 | raster | by its sheer nature |
| 04:43.54 | raster | u have static electricity (enegry) stored on your body by rubbing your feet on the floor |
| 04:44.06 | raster | (given the right substances to generate the static charge) |
| 04:44.15 | slaxxer | wear a plastic coat an charge your moko |
| 04:44.21 | raster | that is dispersed on contact to a grounding material |
| 04:44.24 | raster | and it is no more |
| 04:44.28 | raster | i'ts gopne until its re-generated |
| 04:44.44 | raster | sure |
| 04:44.49 | raster | doesnt matter if its that |
| 04:44.50 | raster | or sunlight |
| 04:44.52 | raster | or wind or whatever |
| 04:44.55 | raster | it is FINITE |
| 04:45.00 | raster | u generate it by walking |
| 04:45.04 | raster | (lets say) |
| 04:45.08 | raster | sur e- u have charge. |
| 04:45.13 | raster | once you USE that charge |
| 04:45.14 | raster | it's gone |
| 04:45.17 | raster | until u walk again |
| 04:45.22 | raster | there is a cost of generating it |
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| 04:45.33 | raster | and it cant be duplicated for free |
| 04:45.41 | raster | u cant apply open source to finite commodities |
| 04:45.55 | raster | its a different set of rules as its a fundamentally different thing |
| 04:46.11 | raster | source os free to duplicate - no loss. energy is not. |
| 04:46.56 | slaxxer | we had a walmart that alwaes static shocked us just by walking a few feet an then one day they fixed it so what they do just ground the static out but what they should do is wire it up an save it |
| 04:46.58 | raster | (i'm being loose woith free here for src - sure there is a cost. the media to store it or the transfer of the source over a network uses a medium which costs $ to build and maintain - but its cheap enough to be "free") |
| 04:47.15 | raster | sure |
| 04:47.23 | raster | but thats entirely separate to open source |
| 04:47.32 | raster | you are just discussing another energy generation mechanism |
| 04:48.20 | raster | the question is... is it viable to bother capturing and storing it |
| 04:48.24 | raster | that - i dont know |
| 04:49.03 | slaxxer | the idea/invention is what should be open source so that men cannot capitalize on it , therefore helping the people instead of those greedy old rich Bastards |
| 04:49.54 | slaxxer | sound like an anarchist,,,,, really im not |
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| 05:09.40 | raster | slaxxer: that is so not what open source is abot |
| 05:09.42 | raster | totally not |
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| 05:09.52 | raster | i suggest you do some good reading up on it |
| 05:10.07 | raster | open osurce is NOT about preventing people from capitalising on something |
| 05:10.09 | raster | totally not |
| 05:10.37 | raster | read up repeated statements from stallman and many other oss "leaders" about how gpl and commercial intrerests are not incompatible |
| 05:10.54 | raster | also how there is nothng wronmg with making money and SELLING gpl apps |
| 05:11.16 | raster | this image of "being anti-money" is a free-love-hippy movement nothing to do with open source |
| 05:11.22 | raster | it's just hitched a ride on the open source bandwagon |
| 05:11.41 | raster | open source is about empowering your users. your customers to be able to help themselves - if they want to |
| 05:11.44 | raster | (and can) |
| 05:12.09 | raster | if you have a bug - not to have to wait for you to get around to fixing it for them when they are perfectly capable of doing it themselves.. *IF* they have the source |
| 05:12.37 | raster | and in addition allowing them to share their changes, fixes, etc. with others |
| 05:12.51 | raster | so others sufferign from the same issue can have it fixed too if 1 person fixes it for themselves |
| 05:13.05 | raster | it is totally NOT about "men cannot capitalize on it" |
| 05:13.33 | raster | and spreading such an image ias just the right thing to make sure companies will not support open source |
| 05:13.40 | raster | in fact will run screaming from it if that is what they hear |
| 05:14.02 | raster | u can kiss goodbye to linux pwoered phones and god knows what else if thats the image you send out of open osurce |
| 05:14.17 | raster | i'd not argue if it was totally untrue what you say |
| 05:14.39 | raster | and all that does it give open source a bad image and remove support for it from the peolpe who make the hardware you rely on |
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| 05:14.50 | raster | </rant> |
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| 06:17.44 | PaulFertser | raster: and yet Stallman doesn't have much money himself. And he never actively supported capitalism or consumerism afaik. |
| 06:18.08 | PaulFertser | raster: he just says that free software per se is not incompatible with making money. |
| 06:18.34 | PaulFertser | raster: but so is free-love-hippie ideas when you make some nice toys and sell them away to make enough for a living. |
| 06:19.24 | PaulFertser | raster: the mere fact the term "open source" surfaced is that "free software" sounds too good to be acceptable by the bastards. |
| 06:20.48 | PaulFertser | Science is (probably unfortunately) not incompatible with capitalising too. But an "ideal" scientist is the one seeking for "truth" not for money. |
| 06:21.02 | PaulFertser | You'll say he can't seek truth without money. But i'm talking about the motivation here. |
| 06:21.36 | PaulFertser | That you need 10^x $'s to invest to build any modern collider or to buy microscope etc etc. |
| 06:21.39 | PaulFertser | True. |
| 06:22.25 | PaulFertser | But an "ideal scientist" would follow either "i want to know that no matter what" or "i want to know that if it doesn't harm humans in general". |
| 06:23.22 | PaulFertser | The first type are sick fanatics. The second type are the best scientists like e.g. Einstein or Sakharov. |
| 06:24.28 | PaulFertser | You just said it yourself that free software is about sharing ideas and information which (sharing) is essentially free. That notion of sharing knowledge comes from science, imho. |
| 06:25.46 | PaulFertser | Come on, free software movement always had connotations with "hacking together having fun fighting for freedom". |
| 06:29.25 | PaulFertser | You take your guitar and stand on a street singing songs. That way you can get enough money for a humble dinner. Singing songs is not incompatible with making money. But when you're honest and frank, money can't be the main reason to sing. You'll sing the same song for your friends for free. That's how it works. |
| 06:31.03 | PaulFertser | It's about the same thing i'd say. Just some people are better at programming than the singing. |
| 06:34.29 | PaulFertser | raster: so to me your statement that "free-love-hippies" "hitching a ride" seems to be false in general and in every detail. Free software started like that, it's those ideals hiding behind the legalese of the free software licensees. |
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| 07:18.23 | gonzoism | i agree with PaulFertser |
| 07:20.02 | doc|home | slaxxer: real anarchists wouldn't use copyright |
| 07:20.21 | doc|home | or at least, wouldn't use the GPL |
| 07:20.28 | doc|home | BSD is practically anarchist |
| 07:24.04 | raster | PaulFertser: the idea that everytthing should be given away for free and calling it the "open source ideal" is utterly false |
| 07:24.14 | raster | open source isnt about giving away for free |
| 07:24.22 | raster | its about giving access to the thing u have sold OR given away |
| 07:24.25 | raster | not restricting it |
| 07:25.19 | raster | in the context that propted that - that rich people should just spend 10,000's of dollars and built network towers and pay for uplink access and give it all away for free... that has nothing to do with open source ideals |
| 07:25.19 | doc|home | oh, and I don't get Stallman's support for Monty of Mysql. It makes no sense. He's supporting them keeping a closed version.... |
| 07:25.29 | raster | same for electricity/power as the thnig transmuted into |
| 07:25.31 | doc|home | I get why, but it's still a closed version |
| 07:25.37 | raster | it is a finite resource that once given away - is lost |
| 07:25.40 | raster | unlike source code |
| 07:25.53 | doc|home | raster: programmer time is not finite |
| 07:26.13 | raster | doc|home: scroll back as to what i said |
| 07:26.15 | doc|home | zZzZz |
| 07:26.22 | doc|home | erk, too late for me :( sorry |
| 07:26.30 | doc|home | have to be up in too-few hours |
| 07:27.36 | raster | well i did say once the cost of creating it is over - distribution is essentially free |
| 07:27.45 | raster | programemr time *IS* a finite resource |
| 07:27.47 | raster | and is not cheap |
| 07:28.01 | raster | as those able to write (good) code are generally educated and/or smart |
| 07:28.06 | raster | and that costs time and money to get there |
| 07:28.16 | raster | and those individuals have skills that are valuable and come at a price |
| 07:28.26 | raster | ie they can be paid $200/hr to do somehting |
| 07:28.35 | raster | or get paid $0/hr and give it away for free as open source |
| 07:28.40 | raster | guess which they'd pick? |
| 07:28.44 | raster | :) |
| 07:28.45 | doc|home | oh, and, one last thing. If you eliminate pay from it.... |
| 07:28.46 | doc|home | gah |
| 07:28.49 | doc|home | you just said it |
| 07:28.58 | doc|home | money is how resources are allocated |
| 07:29.06 | doc|home | remove the money, the world falls apart |
| 07:29.50 | raster | indeed |
| 07:29.52 | gonzoism | it wouldn't fall apart |
| 07:29.54 | raster | it is how something is valued |
| 07:30.01 | doc|home | gonzoism: sure it would |
| 07:30.11 | doc|home | gonzoism: how else do you know what's in demand? |
| 07:30.16 | raster | anhow much u get paid is what someone is WILLING to pay for you |
| 07:30.18 | doc|home | gonzoism: that's what prices dictate |
| 07:30.21 | raster | (your time and effort and skills) |
| 07:30.23 | raster | same for goods |
| 07:30.28 | doc|home | gonzoism: high demand = high prices |
| 07:30.29 | raster | the price of oil or milk |
| 07:30.45 | raster | or for that mattare the price per minute of a call or per mb of data on a network |
| 07:30.50 | gonzoism | high demand should = low prices |
| 07:30.50 | doc|home | well, in fairness, a fair chunk of the price of oil is the politician's take :/ |
| 07:30.55 | raster | its a price which is "willing to be paid for" |
| 07:31.05 | doc|home | gonzoism: if it's low prices, why would anyone produce it? |
| 07:31.07 | gonzoism | willing to be paid for i can agree with |
| 07:31.20 | doc|home | gonzoism: well, supply is of course a factor |
| 07:31.21 | raster | if it wanst - it wouldnt be sold and thus eithe r go unsold (and revenue unrealised) or, it'd drop in price until it matches what is wiling to be paid for it |
| 07:31.32 | gonzoism | because low prices for something high in demand pay off for large scale demand. |
| 07:31.33 | doc|home | raster: bingo |
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| 07:31.44 | doc|home | gonzoism: if that was the case, ferraris would be free |
| 07:31.48 | raster | so in the end the price u pay is a general "what it is worth" price in your area |
| 07:31.52 | raster | simple as that |
| 07:32.00 | raster | even if u have just a single telco |
| 07:32.05 | doc|home | gone |
| 07:32.11 | raster | data prices woudl drop until they sell enough data to make it worth their while |
| 07:32.12 | gonzoism | there isn't a lot of demand for ferraris. its demand is kept artificially inflated. |
| 07:32.23 | doc|home | gonzoism: sure there is |
| 07:32.27 | raster | gonzoism: doesnt matter how its done |
| 07:32.32 | raster | thats the name of the game |
| 07:32.38 | raster | ferrari play the game differently |
| 07:32.50 | raster | create an image of high value and demand and thus be ABLE to charge a high price |
| 07:32.51 | gonzoism | its playing with more than supply and demand. |
| 07:32.51 | doc|home | part of the appeal of a ferrari is the fact that it's "rare" |
| 07:32.56 | raster | the other end of the scale is that of volume |
| 07:33.12 | gonzoism | creating an image of high value is different than demand. |
| 07:33.13 | raster | ie make it available to everyone so the # of buyers is huge |
| 07:33.14 | doc|home | not to mention they generally have great engineering |
| 07:33.19 | raster | but that will only happen if the price comes down |
| 07:34.45 | raster | the problem with tthe capitalist model is not the price for something |
| 07:34.52 | raster | its when someone gives it away for $0 |
| 07:34.57 | raster | thats when the model begins to break down |
| 07:35.19 | raster | (and mostly when that is done its give away something in hope of making big bucks back on somethnig else related to it) |
| 07:35.28 | gonzoism | more like when our idea of the model breaks down |
| 07:35.39 | raster | u have nullified the economics of the thing u are giving away and that really messes with the system |
| 07:36.03 | gonzoism | diversified the economics of the thing you are giving away |
| 07:36.08 | raster | mind u its also a matter of having to adapt when that happens |
| 07:36.44 | gonzoism | yes. the adaption is the whole idea of capitalism, i believe. |
| 07:36.52 | raster | ok.. nyw time |
| 07:36.58 | raster | nye |
| 07:37.00 | raster | *poof* |
| 07:37.05 | gonzoism | nye ? |
| 07:39.23 | gonzoism | i think you might have just disappeared in a poof of smoke. |
| 07:39.30 | gonzoism | maybe |
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| 07:40.24 | doc|home | there's no problem with it being given away - it just means it's a commodity that's not really worth pricing on its own |
| 07:43.38 | gonzoism | or the price to give it away will be made another way. like iphones and contracts. |
| 07:43.54 | doc|home | gonzoism: exactly |
| 07:44.17 | doc|home | the market forces are still there, with people switching and the money changing hands. It's just behind the scenes a little |
| 07:44.22 | doc|home | night |
| 07:44.33 | gonzoism | night |
| 07:44.38 | doc|home | oh, one last thing |
| 07:45.22 | doc|home | when you consider how the interactions of billions of people can, without any force or manipulation, change things just by making their own voluntary purchases, it's amazing just how much it has driven our world forward |
| 07:45.59 | gonzoism | ya |
| 07:46.10 | doc|home | sadly, politicians, and their taxes and legislative powers make things worse, driving money away from what could potentially be great advances by wasting it on bailouts and the likes |
| 07:46.15 | doc|home | wars etc |
| 07:46.18 | doc|home | sleeps |
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| 07:52.27 | alabd | Hello , is there anyway to apk package source ? |
| 07:52.36 | alabd | Hello , is there anyway to see apk package source |
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| 07:54.21 | alabd | which steps should be passed to make tangogps works .. |
| 07:56.20 | alabd | these steps mentioned here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/TangoGPS#Running_tangoGPS are not required for latest SHR yeah |
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| 08:09.18 | alabd | for SHR , which manual should be read , om 2008.x OR om 2009 ? |
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| 08:14.28 | alabd | what's the problem ? gpsd is installed |
| 08:14.30 | alabd | root@om-gta02 ~ $ /etc/init.d/gpsd stop |
| 08:14.30 | alabd | Shutting down gpsd: no /usr/sbin/gpsd found; none killed |
| 08:15.28 | lindi- | alabd: ps axuf? |
| 08:16.32 | alabd | no such process lindi- hi |
| 08:16.59 | lindi- | alabd: then no need to stop gpsd |
| 08:17.08 | alabd | thanks |
| 08:17.59 | alabd | for shr these steps should be done yeah ? here : http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/TangoGPS#FSO_Milestone_3 |
| 08:19.22 | JaMa | alabd: fso-gpsd should be already installed and running in shr image.. |
| 08:19.47 | alabd | root 1290 0.0 1.1 3484 1340 ? Ss 11:20 0:00 /usr/sbin/fso-gpsd -S localhost gpsd -P /var/run/fso-gpsd.pid |
| 08:20.13 | alabd | Ss is ok ? |
| 08:20.20 | JaMa | y |
| 08:20.23 | lindi- | depends on what ok means :) |
| 08:20.57 | JaMa | at least its result of those instructions :) |
| 08:20.59 | alabd | is running |
| 08:21.05 | alabd | ? |
| 08:22.04 | alabd | and what should be result of this command ? |
| 08:22.05 | alabd | echo 1 > /sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0073/pcf50633-regltr.7/neo1973-pm-gps.0 |
| 08:22.05 | alabd | /power_on |
| 08:23.36 | JaMa | power_on should be requested by fsoraw imho |
| 08:23.49 | JaMa | not sure if tangogps do it itself |
| 08:24.11 | JaMa | or if fsoraw -r GPS -- tangogps should be/is used in .desktop file |
| 08:24.44 | JaMa | or maybe fso-gpsd does that if someone connects to it and asks for location.. |
| 08:25.19 | alabd | JaMa: see these http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/TangoGPS#FSO_Milestone_3 steps mentioed here hae been done and now tango gps is opened on fr desktop |
| 08:25.48 | alabd | now how to know if GPS works to show current location or not ? |
| 08:26.39 | JaMa | steps on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/TangoGPS#FSO_Milestone_3 are rather old and not needed for SHR |
| 08:27.18 | JaMa | You can check if GPS works in shr-settings app, there is position tab |
| 08:27.30 | JaMa | if it works there then it will work in tangogps too |
| 08:27.44 | JaMa | haven't used tangogps for few months now.. |
| 08:28.01 | alabd | is there a better app JaMa ? |
| 08:28.17 | JaMa | it depends what you want to do :) |
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| 08:28.35 | alabd | JaMa: what cna be done with gps ? |
| 08:28.45 | JaMa | but tangogps is good .. I just didn't need gps lately.. |
| 08:28.50 | alabd | what do you mean ? |
| 08:29.06 | JaMa | alabd: navit is better if you want car/walk navigation |
| 08:29.06 | alabd | gps can be used for find location yes ? |
| 08:29.30 | alabd | why ? |
| 08:29.39 | alabd | and do you mean those steps should be undo |
| 08:30.03 | JaMa | because it can show you the route and also speak to you wile you're driving.. |
| 08:30.24 | JaMa | tango just shows you current possition and map |
| 08:30.47 | alabd | and how to configure navit on shr ? d |
| 08:30.56 | alabd | does navit shows on map ? |
| 08:30.58 | JaMa | opkg install navit |
| 08:31.01 | JaMa | yes |
| 08:31.17 | JaMa | and see http://shr-project.org/trac/ticket/838 |
| 08:31.22 | alabd | so setuping and ... is not required |
| 08:31.32 | dns53 | it is good that they finally fixed navit so you do not need to modify the config as much |
| 08:31.46 | JaMa | latest navit-icons is broken in shr-feeds |
| 08:31.58 | JaMa | so just use my build from that track |
| 08:32.16 | JaMa | dns53: fixed? |
| 08:32.59 | dns53 | well you used to need to go to the shr tweeks page and copy and paste stuff to the config file so it would load the right modules |
| 08:33.16 | JaMa | ah you mean splited configs and better default one? |
| 08:33.19 | dns53 | now all you need to do is edit the maps file and put in the maps you want |
| 08:33.20 | alabd | JaMa: what is it for is it required before installing it ? opkg --force-depends remove navit navit-icons |
| 08:33.23 | dns53 | yeah |
| 08:33.32 | alabd | JaMa: ok |
| 08:33.40 | JaMa | dns53: I'm glad you like it :) |
| 08:34.05 | JaMa | alabd: not needed to remove if you haven't installed it before :) |
| 08:34.20 | JaMa|Wrk | bye.. |
| 08:42.52 | alabd | JaMa|Wrk: is it only for icons yes ? and navit install is required beside ? http://jama.homelinux.org/org.openembedded.shr/armv4t/navit-icons_0.1.0+svnr2871-r0.4_armv4t.ipk for |
| 08:45.33 | JaMa|Wrk | alabd: yes navit in shr feeds is ok.. only navit-icons is broken |
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| 08:57.43 | alabd | JaMa|Wrk: now after that icons are installed , navit is going to be downloaded , thanks |
| 08:58.23 | alabd | How to use accelerator in shr ? |
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| 12:36.25 | peter_b | hi |
| 12:36.55 | peter_b | can anyone recommend a wifi manager for shr? |
| 12:39.47 | DocScrutinizer51 | for a single purpose single point connect I'd guess a few scripts serve best |
| 12:40.16 | peter_b | :-) |
| 12:40.30 | DocScrutinizer51 | otherwise aiui mokonnect is the recommended tool |
| 12:40.30 | peter_b | i already have something like this for my home wifi |
| 12:40.37 | peter_b | thx |
| 12:40.40 | peter_b | ill try |
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| 12:45.33 | tim_abell | now has a functioning setup.py for podpooch, now back to the bitbake... |
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| 13:41.55 | tim_abell | http://paste.pocoo.org/show/160873/ http://github.com/timabell/mokopod/blob/master/podpooch.bb anyone know what i do next? |
| 13:42.14 | tim_abell | http://github.com/timabell/mokopod/blob/master/setup.py |
| 13:43.05 | tim_abell | i have no clue currently how to resolve the error "the following files were installed but not shipped in any package" |
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| 13:46.19 | Heinervdm | tim_abell: add the following to your bb file: FILES_${PN} += "${libdir}" |
| 13:55.25 | tim_abell | that's an improvement, thanks Heinervdm |
| 13:56.20 | Heinervdm | tim_abell: why do you inherit autotools? |
| 13:56.26 | tim_abell | no idea :) |
| 13:56.31 | tim_abell | it's my first bitbake |
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| 13:56.49 | tim_abell | been trying to piece together what to do from all the instructions i can find on the internet |
| 13:56.54 | Heinervdm | tim_abell: you should inherit distutils instead |
| 13:57.11 | Heinervdm | and remove the overrides for do_compile and do_install |
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| 13:58.36 | tim_abell | oh, that's better |
| 13:59.26 | Heinervdm | then add the PV to the bb filename and remove it from the bb |
| 14:00.05 | tim_abell | you mean in the src_uri? |
| 14:00.16 | Heinervdm | no |
| 14:00.28 | Heinervdm | podpooch_0.2.0.6.bb |
| 14:00.40 | tim_abell | oh right |
| 14:00.56 | tim_abell | i'll do that when i've finished flailing :) |
| 14:02.14 | tim_abell | http://github.com/timabell/mokopod/blob/master/podpooch.bb updated |
| 14:02.42 | tim_abell | i'm down to these files now: "the following files were installed but not shipped in any package: |
| 14:02.42 | tim_abell | NOTE: /usr/share/applications/podpooch.desktop |
| 14:02.42 | tim_abell | NOTE: /usr/share/pixmaps/podpooch.png" |
| 14:03.15 | tim_abell | evidently this isn't working FILES_${PN} += "${datadir}/podpooch.desktop ${datadir}/src ${datadir}/podpooch.png" |
| 14:04.21 | tim_abell | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Application_Development_Crash_Course#Filling_in_the_files would appear to be out of date |
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| 14:08.08 | Heinervdm | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/BitBake_recipe |
| 14:08.41 | Heinervdm | FILES_${PN} += "${datadir} ${libdir}" |
| 14:08.42 | tim_abell | i've looked through that |
| 14:08.47 | Heinervdm | that's all you need |
| 14:09.08 | Heinervdm | $datadir is /usr/share |
| 14:09.11 | tim_abell | i started here http://shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Howto%20get%20my%20application%20in%20the%20SHR%20feed?version=10 |
| 14:09.32 | tim_abell | ah, great, i'll try that |
| 14:11.37 | tim_abell | that's better |
| 14:11.41 | tim_abell | thanks Heinervdm |
| 14:13.45 | Heinervdm | tim_abell: it's a wiki so you should update the page ;) |
| 14:14.06 | tim_abell | my brain is dribbling out my ears! |
| 14:14.23 | tim_abell | i'm not sure i wouldn't make it worse right now |
| 14:14.32 | Heinervdm | i know to much to write a really good beginners guide ;) |
| 14:14.44 | tim_abell | lol, and i currently know too little |
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| 14:16.29 | Heinervdm | I don't wanted to add too much duplicated informations to "Howto get my application in the SHR feed", but perhaps it wasn't enough :) |
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| 14:23.38 | tim_abell | that appears to have worked Heinervdm, tmp/deploy/ipk/armv4t/podpooch_0.2.0.6-r0.4_armv4t.ipk seems to contain all the right stuff |
| 14:24.21 | Heinervdm | nice :) |
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| 15:10.05 | tim_abell | nuts, github doesn't use the tag name in the download tgz file |
| 15:10.15 | tim_abell | comes out as /timabell-mokopod-0023788/ |
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| 15:29.58 | alabd | hello , while connecting fr and desktop via wifi desktop pings fr this way : |
| 15:30.14 | alabd | From 192.168.1.101 icmp_seq=1 Destination Host Unreachable |
| 15:30.22 | alabd | what is the problem ? |
| 15:31.40 | max_posedon | you know, its really not enough info) |
| 15:32.15 | alabd | what is the default name wifi device on fr ? |
| 15:32.19 | alabd | wlan0 ? |
| 15:32.20 | max_posedon | eth0 |
| 15:32.52 | alabd | it is not up |
| 15:33.20 | max_posedon | so, FR have disabled wifi I think |
| 15:34.06 | alabd | and look likes ifconfig -a also does not show eth0 |
| 15:34.25 | max_posedon | i just say, how it looks like for me |
| 15:34.36 | max_posedon | with SHR-U I have eth0 |
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| 15:35.14 | alabd | this is testing and what wifi module name on shr ? |
| 15:37.03 | alabd | max_posedon: and what is your solution ? |
| 15:38.26 | max_posedon | I just enable wifi on shr-settings, disable suspend |
| 15:38.26 | max_posedon | connect via iwconfig from vala-terminal |
| 15:38.26 | max_posedon | this is how I do it |
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| 15:41.56 | alabd | maybe these steps is required max_posedon http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wifi#Make_your_WIFI_more_reliable |
| 15:42.10 | tim_abell | trying to convert my bitbake to fetch from git now... |
| 15:42.26 | tim_abell | From http://github.com/timabell/mokopod |
| 15:42.26 | tim_abell | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:42.26 | tim_abell | NOTE: Creating tarball of git repository |
| 15:42.26 | tim_abell | fatal: Not a valid object name 1 |
| 15:42.26 | tim_abell | NOTE: Task failed: Fetch failed:.... |
| 15:42.29 | tim_abell | any ideas? |
| 15:42.43 | tim_abell | it seemed to do the clone ok |
| 15:42.43 | max_posedon | alabd, maybe, I don't use wpa_supplicant and use web |
| 15:43.18 | max_posedon | *wep |
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| 15:43.39 | tim_abell | the documentation for bitbake seems a little sparse |
| 15:43.48 | alabd | max_posedon: that is not related to wep or wpa http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wifi#Make_your_WIFI_more_reliable |
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| 15:44.25 | max_posedon | I said what I do, and it works for me. so I'm happy with what I have |
| 15:45.08 | alabd | max_posedon: yes problem is that how do you enable wifi ? |
| 15:45.31 | max_posedon | I don't know, but I enabled it via shr-settings |
| 15:45.58 | alabd | ok where how in shr max_posedon? |
| 15:46.15 | max_posedon | sorry, don't understand your last question |
| 15:46.41 | tim_abell | http://paste.pocoo.org/show/160922/ |
| 15:46.46 | alabd | how do you enable wifi in shr max_posedon? |
| 15:47.24 | tim_abell | btibake file - http://paste.pocoo.org/show/160923/ |
| 15:47.33 | max_posedon | Settings -> Connectivity -> Wife -> Auto -> manual -> on |
| 15:49.07 | alabd | and just after enabling you can see eth0 in ifconfig list |
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| 15:50.01 | tim_abell | is running out of spare time fast |
| 15:50.08 | max_posedon | alabd, yes |
| 15:50.14 | tim_abell | anyone know why my bitbake fails? |
| 15:50.17 | rhaeder | Hi. I have bought the slim keyboard from pulster, now I got this: Error: Pairing Not Allowed |
| 15:50.21 | tim_abell | sorry to be a pain |
| 15:50.34 | rhaeder | any ideas? I already pressed "Pairing" on the slim keyborard |
| 15:50.34 | tim_abell | guests arriving any minute |
| 15:50.38 | rhaeder | *keyboard |
| 15:50.51 | tim_abell | desparately want this published before new year |
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| 16:04.03 | alabd | max_posedon: thanks after enabling wifi device eth0 is in ifconfig list |
| 16:04.14 | alabd | but yet it does not connect |
| 16:05.06 | alabd | what parameters do you set with iwconfig ? humble have tested with mokonnect |
| 16:06.02 | max_posedon | essid and web key |
| 16:06.16 | max_posedon | that just run dhcp client and thats all |
| 16:07.27 | alabd | and on host the same ? |
| 16:08.09 | max_posedon | host? |
| 16:08.18 | max_posedon | wifi isn't smth like host-client |
| 16:08.23 | alabd | yeah desktop pc |
| 16:08.46 | max_posedon | why you interesent in host |
| 16:09.19 | Q-Master | max_posedon: Hi! I've fixed a bit your translation to libphone-ui-shr. I wanna upload it to ML. |
| 16:09.28 | alabd | to share internet from host to fr |
| 16:09.28 | max_posedon | I don't share |
| 16:09.29 | alabd | ok sharing is not problem |
| 16:09.29 | max_posedon | e.g. I connect to interent on wifi-spot |
| 16:09.39 | max_posedon | Q-Master, you are welcome |
| 16:09.43 | alabd | problem is that desktop should ping |
| 16:09.45 | alabd | fr |
| 16:09.54 | Q-Master | max_posedon: ok. thnx |
| 16:10.36 | max_posedon | alabd, if both devices ping internet, its smth with you local wifi configuration |
| 16:10.46 | max_posedon | (local network) |
| 16:11.30 | alabd | question is that should those steps that are done on fr be done on desktop ? |
| 16:12.00 | max_posedon | sorry, of course desktop should be connected to local network too |
| 16:12.25 | max_posedon | and of course if desktop haven't wifi, only ethernet you can't setup wifi on it |
| 16:12.36 | takeo_ | im having problems with SHR contacts, it quits when i try to save a added field and it wont show contacts, i tried with another phone where i could see the contacts. any help please? |
| 16:12.59 | max_posedon | takeo_, shr saves contacts in sqlite |
| 16:13.10 | max_posedon | you can use pisi, to merge them to sim |
| 16:13.51 | takeo_ | ok thx i will try that |
| 16:14.50 | tim_abell | pants. out of time |
| 16:14.51 | tim_abell | laters |
| 16:15.05 | *** part/#openmoko tim_abell (n=tim@78-86-198-4.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 16:15.31 | alabd | max_posedon: how to set key without password ? |
| 16:15.39 | alabd | iwconfig wlan0 key "" < ? |
| 16:15.40 | max_posedon | password? |
| 16:15.53 | alabd | to have not key |
| 16:16.14 | max_posedon | if you haven't key , and use WPA you must use wpa_supplicant |
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| 16:16.36 | alabd | ok how to set that command is ok ? |
| 16:16.59 | max_posedon | I don't use wpa_supplicant and can't help you |
| 16:17.07 | alabd | and how to set security OPEN ? |
| 16:17.14 | max_posedon | as for iwconfig, its general linux way, check the docs |
| 16:18.06 | max_posedon | I don't ready to answer your non-FR related Linux questions 6h before NY |
| 16:18.41 | alabd | no problem thanks alot for your attentions |
| 16:19.42 | alabd | just for comand for running hdcp on fr ? max_posedon |
| 16:19.51 | max_posedon | udhcpcd |
| 16:23.45 | alabd | only runnig it is suficiant |
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| 16:44.05 | PBeck | hi |
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| 16:58.06 | alabd | hi |
| 16:58.29 | alabd | max_posedon: after running udhcpd ifconfig foes not show any ip for wifi device eth0 ? |
| 16:59.06 | alabd | *does |
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| 17:26.42 | Hobblin_ | quick question: is there any way to speed up hackable:1 |
| 17:26.43 | Hobblin_ | ? |
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| 17:42.30 | slaxxer | is eclair the android of choice for the freerunner right now? |
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| 18:02.06 | DocScrutinizer | a nice 2010 to everybody |
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| 18:03.27 | tomcatek | DocScrutinizer: the same to You! |
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| 20:17.02 | ftn | Hi there, How can I make persistent the vibrating profile in shr? pls |
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| 21:15.20 | alabd | Hello , how send file from desktop on fr (shr) |
| 21:16.39 | Hobblin_ | alabd: scp should work if you get the ssh to work? |
| 21:17.02 | alabd | Hobblin_: thanks ssh works |
| 21:17.34 | Hobblin_ | alabd: then read about scp or sftp, i think it's what you want |
| 21:18.12 | alabd | what is the difference between scp and sftp |
| 21:18.23 | lindi- | alabd: how do you send files from your laptop to your pc? |
| 21:18.29 | Hobblin_ | different protocols i think |
| 21:19.31 | alabd | lindi-: BT |
| 21:19.46 | alabd | from a laptop to another |
| 21:20.09 | lindi- | alabd: then use BT with freerunner too? |
| 21:21.10 | alabd | maybe usb is faster lindi- or wifi |
| 21:21.53 | alabd | and how to enable bt on fr ? |
| 21:22.04 | Hobblin_ | i recently started messing with my freerunner and I can't seem to get stuff working... any tips on what dist to use to avoid as many software bugs as possible? |
| 21:22.06 | lindi- | alabd: how do you enable it on your laptop? |
| 21:22.12 | alabd | Hobblin_: would you exact command it's too late to read man |
| 21:22.17 | lindi- | Hobblin_: debian, but i'm biased :) |
| 21:22.41 | Hobblin_ | alabd: hu? |
| 21:22.52 | alabd | Hobblin_: scb |
| 21:22.58 | alabd | *scp |
| 21:23.02 | alabd | or sftp |
| 21:23.19 | Hobblin_ | lindi-: pure debian or just any subversion? |
| 21:23.36 | Hobblin_ | alabd: how can it be too late to read man? :O |
| 21:23.49 | Hobblin_ | alabd: sftp is simplest in my opinion... |
| 21:23.53 | alabd | lindi-: GUI enables bt and send ..and recieve |
| 21:24.06 | alabd | but in shr where can it be done gui ? |
| 21:24.31 | lindi- | alabd: what GUI are you using? |
| 21:24.54 | lindi- | Hobblin_: as pure debian as possible, wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/user:lindi has notes |
| 21:25.20 | Hobblin_ | lindi-: check :) thanks |
| 21:26.08 | lindi- | Hobblin_: have you used debian before? |
| 21:26.21 | alabd | Hobblin_: alabd@alabd:~$ sftp root@ip/ /home/alabd/file |
| 21:26.22 | alabd | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:26.39 | Hobblin_ | lindi-: i'm a former ubuntu enthusiast :P |
| 21:26.59 | alabd | lindi-: ubuntu one |
| 21:27.21 | lindi- | alabd: but what program is that? |
| 21:27.23 | Hobblin_ | alabd: sftp root@ip and then just regular ftp for uploading and downloading files |
| 21:27.36 | alabd | maybe bt manager lindi- |
| 21:29.36 | alabd | what is regular ftp command for sending file from desktop to fr |
| 21:29.39 | alabd | Hobblin_: |
| 21:30.33 | Hobblin_ | alabd: rtm |
| 21:30.34 | Hobblin_ | http://www.cs.colostate.edu/helpdocs/ftp.html |
| 21:31.16 | lindi- | alabd: you need to know the name of the package to be able to install it |
| 21:32.07 | alabd | ok maybe sometime that humble have more free time will do that thanks |
| 21:36.35 | alabd | thank you Hobblin_ |
| 21:37.11 | KoFish | alabd: good luck! |
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| 22:16.06 | KoFish | anyone tried Android or Maemo on freerunner? |
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| 23:02.21 | linkmauve__ | Happy new year! :) |
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| 23:14.23 | rhaeder | happy new year, too :) |
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| 23:25.27 | raynet | happy year++ |
| 23:29.25 | raster | hny |
| 23:36.39 | gonzoism | happy new year |
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| 23:43.10 | KoFish | isn't x11 extremely heavy for running on an openmoko? |
| 23:44.15 | groszek | it is extremely heavy to run on quad-core computer with 4gb of ram... |
| 23:44.28 | groszek | the question is if it's working at least reasonably good |
| 23:45.51 | KoFish | yes ofcourse but what i ment to ask was more along the line if X11 isn't unreasonably resource-heavy for running on a smartphone |
| 23:47.39 | raster | KoFish: it isn't at all. |
| 23:49.20 | raster | any statements/opinions of x being heavy are based on a complete lack of understanding of x11 or graphics in general |
| 23:49.58 | raster | the bits where x11 is a bit heavy are where its mis-used by apps in ways to make it not so great (and again this is based on a lack of understanding of x so it's used badly) |
| 23:50.47 | raster | also a lack of understanding of drivers and graphics hw and how x fits into the unix model (or doesnt) is going to skew your opinion |
| 23:51.11 | KoFish | raster: yeah, that is why i asked actually :) but alot of people seems to agree that x11 is pretty bloated and I was just thinking that x11 would have alot of features that really wouldn't be necessary on such a small handheld device |
| 23:51.49 | raster | those "a lot of people" lack understanding and clue :) |
| 23:52.09 | raster | those features - u will, sooner or latere re-invent |
| 23:52.28 | raster | people keep bringing up "network transparency" as if u could remove it from x and make it a lot smaller - thats utterly wrong |
| 23:52.30 | KoFish | raster: thats a easy way of looking at things |
| 23:52.47 | raster | as if its 2 machines on a network or 2 processes ont he same machine - u ALWAYS create some form of protocol to talk |
| 23:52.58 | raster | and in x it simply re-uses unix's wonderful sockets |
| 23:53.11 | raster | the addition of network display is literally a few lines of code |
| 23:53.37 | raster | removign it may save u at most a few kb - likely less |
| 23:53.50 | raster | i can go on through a lot of x11 features |
| 23:54.24 | raster | yes - ther'es legacy in x11 like who these days actually uses XDrawArc() |
| 23:54.33 | raster | sure - theres a lot of legacy 2d drawing funcs |
| 23:54.40 | raster | but u wont save megabytes of ram |
| 23:54.55 | raster | its code that is in the binary that in the end if neverused, is not paged in from disk |
| 23:54.59 | raster | and thus is just dormant |
| 23:55.20 | raster | the removal of that is maybe going to save a few hundred kb on-disk |
| 23:55.25 | raster | and in ram probably much less |
| 23:55.34 | raster | as such smartphones have 128m ram or more |
| 23:55.35 | KoFish | ok :) thanks for sharing your point of view |
| 23:55.41 | raster | they have 100's of mb of flash if not many gb |
| 23:56.03 | raster | if you think x uses so much ram - u should pay atention to how u're measuring it? |
| 23:56.12 | raster | rss? vsize? |
| 23:56.24 | raster | if its vsize - then u are seeing x's MAPPINGs of hardware |
| 23:56.26 | raster | like video ram |
| 23:56.38 | raster | if u have 256m of vram - x may go and just "map in" all of it |
| 23:56.41 | raster | thats video ram on hw |
| 23:56.46 | raster | not "system ram" |
| 23:56.55 | raster | and so when u look at the x process it "looks big" |
| 23:56.58 | KoFish | i was simply thinking that x could be a area of possible optimization |
| 23:57.04 | raster | but thats because its sucked in external hw mapped ram |
| 23:57.07 | raster | same for other bits of fram |
| 23:57.21 | raster | the optimisation would be in better drivers |
| 23:57.27 | raster | and thats a job you have with or without x |
| 23:57.45 | raster | x buys you the infra to have all your existing apps for linux/unix "just work" |
| 23:57.53 | raster | u can use all the existing toolkits if u want |
| 23:58.09 | raster | its easy to develop for as you can just write apps on your desktop andthen "make" for the target |
| 23:58.19 | raster | u dont "need" an emulation sdk |
| 23:58.48 | raster | all u need to do is make the app work within device hw constraints - lower res, no mouse (finger input) etc. |