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| 03:44.16 | Psi | so am i the only one getting this problem of not being able to type capital letters in shr on gta01? |
| 03:44.34 | Psi | pretty much makes terminal useless |
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| 03:55.51 | raster | Psi: it works just fine here (upstream "head" svn of e+illume etc. |
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| 04:02.31 | raster | http://www.rasterman.com/files/illume-kbd-type-elementary-test.png |
| 04:02.36 | raster | http://www.rasterman.com/files/illume-kbd-type-xterm.png |
| 04:02.45 | raster | typed with terminal kbd |
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| 05:06.14 | slaxxer | mrmoku has newer images |
| 05:10.41 | slaxxer | http://build.shr-project.org/tests/mrmoku/unstable/images/om-gta02/?C=M;O=D |
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| 05:42.37 | PaulFertser_ | "Use OpenGl with some commands to read the serial port data." that guy is definetely insane |
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| 05:56.17 | DocScrutinizer | huh? |
| 05:58.35 | DocScrutinizer | nah, too early |
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| 06:09.28 | DocScrutinizer-8 | PaulFertser_: do you understand aarons mail in [hw]? |
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| 06:13.20 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: i've read it but then just flagged waiting for your reply ;) |
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| 06:13.57 | DocScrutinizer-8 | he seems to use french TLAs |
| 06:14.40 | DocScrutinizer-8 | which doesn't help much for me to get hs point |
| 06:16.46 | DocScrutinizer-8 | or it's just me missing another few hours of sleep and then a few cups of coffee |
| 06:18.54 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: i think he wants to say that when he changes BL brightness the difference of power consumed by LED BL is 1.5 less than the difference of the power consumed by device as a whole. It's like led converter is not nearly ~95% efficient. |
| 06:19.41 | PaulFertser_ | I mean the real life efficiency seems lower than expected. |
| 06:20.41 | DocScrutinizer-8 | if that's exactly his problem, then it's ridiculously simple: he probably just probes for current but misses to calculate power (by I * U) |
| 06:21.47 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: he measures current flowing through LED BL and at the same time the voltage on + pin of it. |
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| 06:24.39 | DocScrutinizer-8 | hmm, in Germany we have an EE saying "wer misst, misst Mist" which means the one who probes gets wrong results |
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| 06:25.21 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: he says he also tried hooking up a 'scope to the LED BL to see the signal and says that its average and RMS match so I*U is correct way to determine the power. |
| 06:25.41 | DocScrutinizer-8 | as I don't see any of his results but only a fuzzy conclusion of his, I'm not eager to reply |
| 06:26.39 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: ok, i'll ask him to provide the result of his measurements, would be interesting to see anyway. |
| 06:26.52 | DocScrutinizer-8 | BL has some 20V iirc, and bat has ~4V |
| 06:27.38 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: yes |
| 06:28.19 | PaulFertser_ | 18V max |
| 06:31.22 | PaulFertser_ | Mail sent |
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| 06:37.40 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: what efficiency would you expect from a typical IC boost converter with the inductor employed in FR? |
| 06:38.13 | PaulFertser_ | (it's some SUBARU-damn-where's-the-datasheet model again) |
| 06:40.20 | DocScrutinizer-8 | PaulFertser_: some 70..90% |
| 06:41.24 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: well, his results give 66.(6)% I guess the devil is definetely involved. |
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| 06:56.01 | d1b | hi anyone on SHR noticing that the newer kernel is sucking power |
| 06:56.10 | d1b | (latest unstable) |
| 06:56.41 | PaulFertser_ | d1b: sucking power when exactly? |
| 06:57.32 | d1b | PaulFertser_: when in stand bye |
| 06:57.37 | d1b | (with gsm on) |
| 06:57.41 | PaulFertser_ | d1b: what're your results? |
| 06:58.07 | d1b | PaulFertser_: i don't have reliable tests / done any really. |
| 06:58.24 | d1b | but from my experience the june i think it was ... used less power. |
| 06:58.26 | d1b | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:58.35 | PaulFertser_ | d1b: i can tell you that the kernel wasn't changed at all for quite some time, at least nothing pm-related. |
| 06:58.48 | d1b | PaulFertser_: oh? |
| 06:58.52 | d1b | PaulFertser_: is kernel dev still going on ? |
| 06:59.29 | d1b | perhaps it is the "ti_calypso_deep_sleep = never |
| 06:59.35 | d1b | that is in shr... now ?... |
| 07:02.08 | PaulFertser_ | d1b: yep, we'll have .31 soon |
| 07:02.58 | PaulFertser_ | d1b: with deep sleep disabled you basically half the standby time. |
| 07:04.32 | d1b | PaulFertser_: that may be why. |
| 07:05.21 | PaulFertser_ | d1b: just do #1024 fix and change to always... |
| 07:06.00 | d1b | #1024 ? you man flash the firmware ... |
| 07:06.09 | d1b | i did that recently (maybe 2 months ago) |
| 07:06.15 | PaulFertser_ | d1b: of course no |
| 07:07.09 | d1b | mean* |
| 07:07.09 | PaulFertser_ | d1b: https://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1024#comment:56 |
| 07:08.01 | d1b | erh i need a hardware mod? |
| 07:08.29 | d1b | i thought this was fixed by a gsm firmware update... |
| 07:09.02 | DocScrutinizer-8 | nope |
| 07:09.25 | DocScrutinizer-8 | this isn't (easily) fixable via FW |
| 07:09.34 | PaulFertser_ | d1b: i gave you all the pointers and refuse to comment any further |
| 07:10.02 | PaulFertser_ | going to implement #1024 on 2 FRs today or tomorrow |
| 07:10.48 | DocScrutinizer-8 | the fix I hope ;-P |
| 07:11.04 | PaulFertser_ | The problem doesn't require any implementation, so yes, the fix :D |
| 07:11.32 | d1b | PaulFertser_: but i should still get 3 days stand bye time without this fix ? |
| 07:11.59 | DocScrutinizer-8 | yes |
| 07:12.15 | DocScrutinizer-8 | under ideal conditions |
| 07:12.30 | PaulFertser_ | d1b: depends on many conditions and usage patterns. You have a coloumb counter, don't you? I think you can rely on it providing you proper current measurements so what are you talking about? |
| 07:12.48 | d1b | PaulFertser_: mm? |
| 07:12.53 | PaulFertser_ | Oh man |
| 07:13.25 | d1b | im not an electronics guy, i ask my brother about that stuff. |
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| 07:16.21 | PaulFertser_ | d1b: or just look at /sys/class/power_supply/battery |
| 07:16.26 | PaulFertser_ | Obviously |
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| 07:17.17 | skamster_ | hello all |
| 07:17.57 | skamster_ | i just wondering about the 1024-bug..i set the calypso-deepsleep to always and suspended it |
| 07:18.11 | PaulFertser_ | skamster_: you're almost late to the party |
| 07:18.16 | PaulFertser_ | Surprisingly |
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| 07:18.26 | skamster_ | :) |
| 07:18.35 | PaulFertser_ | skamster_: we've just discussed it |
| 07:18.41 | skamster_ | i hear in the mailinglist, some devices doesn't have the bug |
| 07:19.03 | skamster_ | so i check the things from the mailinglist, but i want to be realy shure.. |
| 07:19.17 | DocScrutinizer-8 | so? |
| 07:19.28 | PaulFertser_ | skamster_: we do not have any good statistics. My personal device didn't showed it usually but only after my walk to my workplace. |
| 07:20.00 | PaulFertser_ | skamster_: i'd say until you implemented the fix, do not use deep sleep, that'd be safe and sane. |
| 07:20.15 | skamster_ | mmh, ok.. |
| 07:20.30 | skamster_ | also not, when it wake up after suspend? |
| 07:20.40 | skamster_ | with deepsleep? |
| 07:21.01 | PaulFertser_ | skamster_: suspend and deepsleep are unreleted |
| 07:21.31 | PaulFertser_ | skamster_: it's just that difference between deepsleep and sleep=2 is neglegible when SoC is running and considerable when it's suspended. |
| 07:22.09 | skamster_ | ok.. |
| 07:22.14 | DocScrutinizer-8 | also the adaptive thingy for obvious reasons won't work during suspend |
| 07:22.36 | skamster_ | so i couldn't make a sure test if i've got the bug or not? |
| 07:22.46 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: exactly, that's why "never" is a safe choice. |
| 07:23.13 | PaulFertser_ | skamster_: just change the damn cap to be sure |
| 07:23.14 | d1b | PaulFertser_: well i have it not being able to really last one day. in suspend on the current shr. |
| 07:23.19 | d1b | that's all i know atm :) |
| 07:23.54 | PaulFertser_ | d1b: are you sure you've got gta02 and not gta01? ;) |
| 07:24.05 | d1b | PaulFertser_: fairly sure ;) , i have wifi |
| 07:24.31 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: (linearity of efficiency coefficient of boost converter) i've no idea about it :( |
| 07:25.05 | DocScrutinizer-8 | d1b: so you definitely do sth wrong |
| 07:25.18 | d1b | PaulFertser_: ? |
| 07:25.30 | DocScrutinizer-8 | I get >8h with display backlite and irc over gprs |
| 07:25.35 | d1b | i might just put the old shr back on it |
| 07:25.50 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: what kernel / distro? |
| 07:26.00 | PaulFertser_ | d1b: like suspending without issuing proper commands to disable unsolicited replies so you get your device woken up every now and then and then auto-suspending again. |
| 07:26.05 | DocScrutinizer-8 | shr-U88 |
| 07:26.11 | d1b | u88 ? |
| 07:26.39 | DocScrutinizer-8 | see chan-topic |
| 07:27.21 | d1b | i think im on that one |
| 07:28.11 | d1b | wait im on the september one. |
| 07:28.19 | DocScrutinizer-8 | repeated #1024 (when set to adaptive or always) also easily may cause bat drain |
| 07:30.56 | d1b | so you recommend shr-full-glibc-ipk--20090808-om-gta02.rootfs.jffs2 ok. |
| 07:32.50 | d1b | is this correct? |
| 07:33.06 | DocScrutinizer-8 | hmm, I thought there wasn't any more full image. no idea. you also may use the lates as of 0906 |
| 07:33.07 | d1b | like ... the url in the topic doesn't exist there anymore :) unless you mean the .tar thingy:) |
| 07:33.17 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: well there is . |
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| 07:35.06 | BillK | is there an irc channel for gentoo on openmoko, or a mailing list? - the wiki isnt very detailed and I need some detail ... |
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| 07:36.04 | DocScrutinizer-8 | there are some gentoo users around iirc. e.g. Max_posedon |
| 07:36.49 | BillK | DocScrutinizer-8: tkx, will try and contact him later |
| 07:37.10 | DocScrutinizer-8 | ~seen max_posedon |
| 07:37.11 | apt | max_posedon <n=max_pose@100-243-252-87-dynamic-pool.gprs.mts.by> was last seen on IRC in channel #openmoko, 16h 31m 18s ago, saying: 'even from 2m high?('. |
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| 07:45.38 | d1b | so i take it the changes to shr since the august release (for sept) have caused problems .. maybe.. |
| 07:46.55 | DocScrutinizer-8 | PaulFertser_: are you sure the current-now readings in gta01 are actually noisy and not simple aliasing on a highly random signal? |
| 07:58.15 | skamster_ | ehm, couldsomeone tell me where i find the tutorial for the 1024-fix? |
| 07:58.25 | skamster_ | i didn't found it in the openmoko-wiki |
| 07:58.35 | skamster_ | (search for 1024) |
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| 08:10.47 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: perhaps my battery is broken / old now ? |
| 08:12.36 | DocScrutinizer-8 | d1b: search people.openmoko.org/joerg for a script called bq27k-detail |
| 08:13.22 | DocScrutinizer-8 | it reads out all the interesting values from batteries coloumb-counter |
| 08:13.31 | andi | skamster_:http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/2009-May/001192.html |
| 08:13.48 | DocScrutinizer-8 | you'll need to "opkg install bash" to make it work |
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| 08:15.27 | andi | but I do not find C1009 in the schematics |
| 08:16.13 | andi | but there is a picture with the added capacitor |
| 08:16.19 | DocScrutinizer-8 | andi: that's due to the fact I had to remove the whole calypso part from published schem |
| 08:16.55 | DocScrutinizer-8 | for copyright and NDA reasons |
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| 08:17.22 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: how can i see how much it is currently charging at tho? |
| 08:17.46 | DocScrutinizer-8 | open shr-settings,power |
| 08:18.10 | DocScrutinizer-8 | there you get clear text output of charging current |
| 08:18.38 | andi | on the component placement I see C1010 but not C1009 |
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| 08:18.57 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: well in debian it is 1000 and here i can only charge at 500 or 100 |
| 08:19.37 | DocScrutinizer-8 | sorry, can't comment on this |
| 08:20.04 | andi | but at least my GTA02v5 now boots without battery (I finally added a 100µF cap), yeah! |
| 08:20.28 | DocScrutinizer-8 | andi: woohooo |
| 08:20.50 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: ok ill revert my shr to the older one . |
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| 08:22.53 | DocScrutinizer-8 | andi: iirc in one of the mails topic 1024 there's an attachment with an excerpt of the calypso schematics |
| 08:23.54 | DocScrutinizer-8 | andi: and-- you noticed we got searchable comp-plcmnt pdfs now? |
| 08:24.08 | DocScrutinizer-8 | courtesy lindi-_ |
| 08:24.20 | andi | yes |
| 08:25.03 | andi | and I found out that around C1767 there a quite some changes between v5 and v6 |
| 08:25.03 | DocScrutinizer-8 | and c1009 is missing in there? |
| 08:25.12 | andi | yes |
| 08:25.35 | DocScrutinizer-8 | rise a "ticket" about that to lindi please |
| 08:25.46 | andi | ok |
| 08:25.49 | andi | it is there |
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| 08:25.59 | andi | I must have been blind |
| 08:26.16 | andi | that I did not see the mark generated by searching |
| 08:26.16 | DocScrutinizer-8 | (c1767) that's one of the main reasons for A6 ;-) |
| 08:26.17 | andi | sorry |
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| 08:28.35 | DocScrutinizer-8 | on A5 C1767 was "up in the air" retrofit |
| 08:28.47 | DocScrutinizer-8 | iirc |
| 08:29.36 | andi | and it is 0603 or 0805 |
| 08:29.57 | PaulFertser_ | andi: was it hard to add c1767? Does it worth it? I've Nikita Youshenko's device which is A5. |
| 08:31.26 | andi | one side goes to c1706 |
| 08:31.55 | andi | and you have to take care not to touch c1729 |
| 08:32.06 | andi | and tp1704 |
| 08:32.19 | andi | and for the other one I have a short wire |
| 08:32.30 | andi | so r1767 |
| 08:33.23 | andi | c1764 was rotated by 90 degrees between 05 and 06 |
| 08:34.36 | andi | I have taken 587-1963-1-ND |
| 08:34.36 | andi | CAP CER 100UF 6.3V X5R 1206 |
| 08:34.36 | andi | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:34.41 | PaulFertser_ | Hm, 100uF under the can... i can't easily obtain 0805 100uF i guess. |
| 08:35.24 | andi | well, there is empty space on the pcb |
| 08:35.43 | andi | and c1764 is also 1206 |
| 08:35.50 | DocScrutinizer-8 | could you put that somewhere on wiki please (maybe just this conversation c&p) |
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| 08:37.19 | andi | ok, I'll do |
| 08:37.46 | DocScrutinizer-8 | :-) |
| 08:37.47 | *** join/#openmoko meuh (n=ydroneau@pdpc/supporter/active/meuh) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 08:37.47 | *** join/#openmoko tg (i=tg@digit.drk.hu) |
| 08:39.14 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-085-216-073-116.hsi.kabelbw.de) |
| 08:39.27 | *** join/#openmoko thrashold (n=europan@3mhz.net) |
| 08:39.34 | PBeck | hi |
| 08:40.17 | DocScrutinizer-8 | moin |
| 08:42.41 | DocScrutinizer-8 | andi: PaulFertser_: a photo footage is really appreciated too ;-) |
| 08:42.50 | PBeck | hi :) |
| 08:44.41 | DocScrutinizer-8 | I consider to recommend inspection and shorting where due those obnoxious 1uF "0R" on earpiece path as well |
| 08:44.45 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: i think i'm not going to perform that, i lack the cap anyway. |
| 08:45.36 | DocScrutinizer-8 | PaulFertser_: you dumbass, how do you perform buzzfix then ;-) |
| 08:45.53 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: i currently having difficulties even testing the buzzfix because i don't think his u-boot will boot my SD and his SD is not very stable |
| 08:46.30 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: i use ~ SMD type C capacitor (6.0 mm 3.2 mm) |
| 08:46.50 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: and i've only 6 caps for two FRs. buzzfix+bassfix and nothing left. |
| 08:46.59 | *** join/#openmoko tenzind (n=tenzin@119.152.98.9) |
| 08:47.39 | DocScrutinizer-8 | PaulFertser_: you dumbass. you know people who send 100uF all the way to australia ;-) |
| 08:48.09 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: yeah. But it takes too much time :D and i don't think booting without a battery is that useful after all ;) |
| 08:48.20 | DocScrutinizer-8 | k |
| 08:48.54 | PaulFertser_ | Let me perform other fixes without issues, i'm not a professional soldering guy after all :) |
| 08:50.33 | DocScrutinizer-8 | I'm increasingly getting to old (esp my eyes) for that kinda messing around |
| 08:53.37 | PaulFertser_ | Ok, now to the 1024 fix, buzzfix seem to work. |
| 08:54.12 | DocScrutinizer | PaulFertser_: don't forget to shoot those R3004/5 |
| 08:55.46 | DocScrutinizer | btw you can probe if those are 0R or 1uF, by simply testing voltage from rec4301 to gnd |
| 08:56.50 | DocScrutinizer | (should load gsmhandset.state prior to probing ;-) |
| 08:56.54 | andi | PaulFertser_: digikey sends without shipping costs if you are over 65, my order took 36h to arrive from us in germany, so I guess shipping to moscow would not take longer |
| 08:57.42 | DocScrutinizer | over 65 :-o ?? I'm not THAT old ;-P |
| 08:58.13 | *** join/#openmoko zedstar (n=john@fsf/member/zedstar) |
| 08:58.40 | andi | really over 65 euros |
| 08:59.31 | *** join/#openmoko pa4wdh (n=pa4wdh@a213-84-93-147.adsl.xs4all.nl) |
| 09:00.41 | DocScrutinizer-8 | I wonder why my Konversation does just show nonprintable char, while xchat here on maemo is correct with the ⬠sign |
| 09:01.46 | DocScrutinizer | and Konversation showns *my* (xchat maemo) ⬠sign just nicely |
| 09:03.06 | DocScrutinizer-8 | as well as does xchat with my Koncersation euro sign |
| 09:03.39 | DocScrutinizer-8 | just andis isn't printable on Konversation |
| 09:03.53 | DocScrutinizer-8 | puzzling |
| 09:03.54 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: can dismount time (with great care) 6:30. |
| 09:04.14 | DocScrutinizer-8 | great |
| 09:05.19 | DocScrutinizer-8 | here dismount time nonsucceeding with great care ~5:00, then dismount with brute force ~1:00 |
| 09:05.41 | DocScrutinizer-8 | ;-0 |
| 09:07.50 | *** join/#openmoko Arigead (n=Rupert@83.71.155.177) |
| 09:09.11 | *** join/#openmoko ixs (i=andreas@lacht.ueber.gattinnen-im-netz.de) |
| 09:11.37 | *** join/#openmoko otypoks (n=e55c2403@xkh1g1.infr.xiaoka.com) |
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| 09:13.54 | andi | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA02A5_Boot_without_battery |
| 09:14.26 | andi | no photos yet |
| 09:16.01 | PaulFertser_ | andi: if that was my device i think i'll follow your route. But given i'm just to perform the most necessary fixes and then give it back i'm ok with components that are easily accessible here. |
| 09:18.16 | d1b | question when i use the ac power charger should it be 500 or 1000 ...ma |
| 09:19.00 | andi | if it is the original one, then it should be 1000 |
| 09:24.14 | d1b | andi: yes, shr says it is only charging at 500 |
| 09:24.21 | d1b | <PROTECTED> |
| 09:24.24 | andi | PaulFertser_: thats understandable |
| 09:31.29 | DocScrutinizer-8 | d1b: the gui doesn't say anything wrt that |
| 09:32.43 | DocScrutinizer-8 | d1b: though I understand and agree the 100-500 slider on shr-settings,power is somewhat confusing (and doesn't work as expected btw) |
| 09:35.23 | DocScrutinizer-8 | actually all that usb-curlim foo is so messed up it incidentally reached a state where it "just works for me", means it's charging with 1000max even on alien wallwart chargers |
| 09:36.39 | DocScrutinizer-8 | hi lindi- :-) |
| 09:39.49 | lindi- | morning |
| 09:42.04 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: yep :) |
| 09:43.09 | d1b | i might go and use debian. as lindi- app works for me.... (i have killed the other alsa states and replaced them with shr's loudspeaker :) ) |
| 09:43.30 | DocScrutinizer-8 | :X |
| 09:44.04 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: it has no auditable ring :) |
| 09:44.09 | d1b | but vibrating works :) |
| 09:44.30 | d1b | mmm apparently i have 6 hours left ... at 93% battery. |
| 09:44.44 | d1b | ah better 43 now |
| 09:44.45 | DocScrutinizer-8 | I refuse to comment on that, as I don't like to get excited and upset |
| 09:45.26 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: well. debian is nice :) i debootstraped that one :) . just didn't have alsa working for me. else i wouldn't be in shr probably heheeh. |
| 09:46.19 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=toi@84.194.169.109) |
| 09:47.36 | DocScrutinizer-8 | please stop to pester me with comments of class "oh damn, my diesel doesn't work with ethanol. So finally I found it only needs salad oil to fill into air filter" |
| 09:49.05 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: oh, main can is 5x times harder, still working on dismounting properly. |
| 09:49.21 | d1b | sorry. |
| 09:49.25 | DocScrutinizer-8 | PaulFertser_: see? :-P |
| 09:49.37 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: are you a shr dev? |
| 09:49.51 | DocScrutinizer-8 | nope |
| 09:50.04 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: ok . sorry to up set you :) . |
| 09:52.26 | DocScrutinizer-8 | ~docscrutinizer |
| 09:52.27 | apt | methinks docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko |
| 09:52.57 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: cool. but ... is any more hw being developed. |
| 09:53.10 | DocScrutinizer-8 | nopr |
| 09:53.10 | d1b | i was so looking forward to a v3 |
| 09:53.41 | DocScrutinizer-8 | OM stopped development all together afaik |
| 09:54.06 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: yeah i heard... |
| 09:54.54 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: om provided the gta02... it had bugs / has... fine "buzz fixes" and other issues are kind of annoying. |
| 09:55.12 | d1b | the phone is still more reliable than my old nokia tho. |
| 09:59.19 | *** join/#openmoko edgar (n=christop@cm56-222-142.liwest.at) |
| 10:00.05 | andi | has anybody managed to connect to wifi networks when broadcasting ssid is turned off using wpa_supplicant? |
| 10:00.49 | andi | I was able to do it only with iwconfig eth0 essid xxx when wpa_supplicant is not running |
| 10:01.07 | DocScrutinizer-8 | andi: never heard of any success story. Anyway hiding SSID is strongly deprecated generally |
| 10:02.28 | DocScrutinizer-8 | it introduces additional attack vectors, and makes administration a pita at large |
| 10:04.00 | andi | why it introduces additional attack vectors compared to the same setting without hiding ssid? |
| 10:04.51 | andi | I do not speak about using it instead of encryption |
| 10:05.17 | *** join/#openmoko tenzind (n=tenzin@119.152.45.4) |
| 10:05.57 | DocScrutinizer-8 | not exactly sure about all the implications. One point is you are actively broadcasting the name of the AP you intend to connect with then. Another point is a rogue AP more easily can spoof this name when a request comes in |
| 10:09.06 | *** join/#openmoko nio_ (n=nio@d594e5f2.dsl.concepts.nl) |
| 10:11.02 | DocScrutinizer-8 | andi: actually you are broadcasting the names of *all* hidden-SSID-AP configured on your client |
| 10:11.37 | DocScrutinizer-8 | "hey, are you FOO?" "maybe BAR?" |
| 10:11.38 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: ok, the main can dimounted |
| 10:12.22 | DocScrutinizer-8 | PaulFertser_: not a real fun, no? |
| 10:12.36 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: i know one reasonable case where hidden ssid seems "ok". |
| 10:12.39 | andi | ok, understand that |
| 10:12.59 | andi | if you want to make sure people connect only by intention |
| 10:13.39 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: imagine someone's leaving in a poor town where wifi APs are quite rare. And bad guys are walking around using their PDAs to scan for networks to find flats/houses with APs assuming that those are good targets for burglary. |
| 10:14.28 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: yeah, the main can is really uneasy and unfun to dismount properly. Nokia's much better designed cans. |
| 10:14.39 | DocScrutinizer-8 | so what then? The AP still sending beacons, just with empty SSID |
| 10:15.31 | andi | PaulFertser:_ I it takes me also that long |
| 10:15.53 | PaulFertser_ | andi: main cain takes you ~20 min? heh |
| 10:16.04 | DocScrutinizer-8 | so whenever I go wardriving, a hidden SSID tells me "noob!!! got target as probably poorly configured" ;-P |
| 10:16.31 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: are you sure conventional PDAs show those hidden networks at all? And we're assuming attackers are dumb of course. |
| 10:17.46 | DocScrutinizer-8 | ooh, I'm really not afraid of attackers too stupid to use airodump. The simply have no means to crack the encryption pw anyway |
| 10:19.02 | DocScrutinizer-8 | the ones with knowledge to actually attack your WLAN just see an invitation sign in any hidden SSID |
| 10:19.45 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: those attackers i'm talking about are too dumb to use any tools for cracking wifi whatsoever. They crack doors open and still your property instead. |
| 10:19.58 | PaulFertser_ | steal |
| 10:20.14 | DocScrutinizer-8 | of course hiding SSID will stop the DAU next door to accidentally try to associate to your AP |
| 10:20.54 | DocScrutinizer-8 | PaulFertser_: aaah, that's a semi-valid scenario |
| 10:22.08 | andi | or if the neighbour only has a freerunner and the network is wpa encrypted, you will prevent him from connecting |
| 10:22.11 | DocScrutinizer-8 | I missed the keyword burglary in your initial statement |
| 10:22.54 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: this A5 seem to have caps in R3004/3005 places |
| 10:23.14 | DocScrutinizer-8 | PaulFertser_: so simply short them |
| 10:23.26 | PaulFertser_ | DocScrutinizer-8: I will, sure |
| 10:24.49 | DocScrutinizer-8 | PaulFertser_: prepare for complaints the device shoots owners ear ;-P |
| 10:26.49 | d1b | andi: its called kismet. |
| 10:26.53 | d1b | and or mdk. |
| 10:27.11 | d1b | andi: hidden ssid isn't good protectoin except from bad software / hardware :) |
| 10:31.24 | andi | dlb: yes, I know kismet and that was not the question |
| 10:31.32 | DocScrutinizer-8 | PaulFertser_: most wlan-tools nowadays show hidden-AP, just with name marked as "<unknown>" or sth |
| 10:32.10 | d1b | who needs encryption ? ;) you have nothing to hide ;) |
| 10:32.41 | d1b | (my pet hobby is making fake aps in public places and watching people try to connect). |
| 10:32.47 | d1b | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:35.35 | DocScrutinizer-8 | hehe, exactly. Next step is to lure in all clients that ask "hey, are you AP-XXX?" |
| 10:36.10 | *** join/#openmoko dos1 (n=dos@adia67.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 10:37.26 | d1b | DocScrutinizer-8: maybe, but i think cowpatty can now generate a 4 way handshake from 2 parts :) |
| 10:37.40 | d1b | or something like that. |
| 10:39.31 | *** join/#openmoko dos1 (n=dos@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 10:40.06 | andi | ok, if you switch your device into a "I am in a trusted network, I can open all my ports"-mode you can find out interesting things |
| 10:40.44 | *** join/#openmoko dos1 (n=dos@adia67.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 10:40.44 | andi | other people can find out interesting things |
| 10:42.37 | *** join/#openmoko dos1 (n=dos@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 10:47.03 | *** join/#openmoko dos1 (n=dos@adia67.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 10:48.27 | andi | but in all it is not the ap which is unsafe, its the client which wildly connects to everything |
| 10:49.34 | DocScrutinizer-8 | yup |
| 10:50.33 | andi | and if you have common (like product names) ssids in your list, you have still good chances to connect to something wron |
| 10:51.05 | DocScrutinizer-8 | but maybe <hidden> is the only SSID so widely used that you might consider to calculate a rainbow table for it and crack the passworf in zero time |
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| 11:13.42 | andi | is there any category for all these hw fix things |
| 11:13.50 | andi | in the wiki |
| 11:14.14 | andi | for buzz fix, bass fix, 1024 fix and so on? |
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| 11:23.06 | DocScrutinizer-8 | andi: probably not yet. I suggest to create a subcategory hw/reworks_and_mods |
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| 11:23.21 | andi | I'll do |
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| 11:35.53 | Amorphous | mh i again have a corrupted ext2 on my sd card from which i run SHR. anyone else experiencing something like that? |
| 11:35.54 | *** join/#openmoko radekp (n=radek@63.120.broadband10.iol.cz) |
| 11:37.37 | andi | Amorphous: seen that with 4gb kingston cards for example |
| 11:37.51 | andi | look at the list of supported microsd cards in the wiki |
| 11:37.57 | Amorphous | 2gb sandisk card |
| 11:38.44 | Amorphous | is there a way to check the installed system for consistency, like debsums, just for opkg ? |
| 11:40.35 | DocScrutinizer-8 | corrupted fs is a non-specific issue, it doesn't usualy relate to particular uSD or sd-storage at all. Start a fsck.ext2 |
| 11:41.03 | DocScrutinizer-8 | and do not remove bat to shutdown system ;-P |
| 11:41.59 | Amorphous | DocScrutinizer-8, the problem is that i didn't forcefully shut the system down. and it did not crash either. |
| 11:42.20 | DocScrutinizer | that's strange then |
| 11:42.43 | lindi- | Amorphous: can you run my crcloop module that does CRC checks for all data that is being written and read? |
| 11:42.46 | DocScrutinizer | this *might* be caused by IO-errors on a "weak" uSD |
| 11:43.26 | Amorphous | mh i should have checked dmesg before shuting down for fsck |
| 11:44.22 | Amorphous | lindi-, it uses some space to store the crc or is it something hw specific? |
| 11:44.42 | lindi- | Amorphous: checksums are currently in RAM |
| 11:44.52 | lindi- | Amorphous: for simplicity and speed |
| 11:47.57 | Amorphous | btw. the corruption pattern is weird. the kernel on moko doesn't remount ro, i just at some point find some file that has unexpected stats and when i fsck i get flags set on stuff that shouldn't be there (like EXTENTS_FL) |
| 11:48.35 | Amorphous | lindi-, i would much prefer to run btrfs on it |
| 11:49.18 | Amorphous | but i don't think i currently have enough time to tinker around |
| 11:49.22 | lindi- | Amorphous: can you still test crc too? |
| 11:49.33 | Amorphous | lindi-, how much work is it? |
| 11:50.10 | lindi- | Amorphous: i guess you need small initramfs to set it up so that you can have rootfs on top of it |
| 11:50.21 | lindi- | Amorphous: if you want to have it on non-rootfs then it's bit easier |
| 11:50.43 | *** join/#openmoko _Andrew (n=andrew@unaffiliated/andrew/x-643872) |
| 11:50.54 | Amorphous | sounds like too much work. it's my rootfs. |
| 11:53.11 | Amorphous | mh interesting the file that was botched ( /sbin/ldconfig ) seems to be fine now |
| 11:54.16 | Amorphous | is there some way to check that all files under control of opkg are correct? |
| 11:55.04 | andi | with the 4gb kingston cards I had messages like /etc/init.d/rcS not readable on booting |
| 11:55.15 | andi | and then booting again -> everything fine |
| 11:55.28 | *** join/#openmoko alexxy (n=alexxy@gentoo/developer/alexxy) |
| 11:57.08 | Amorphous | yea something like that could actually happen from the failures that i saw |
| 12:03.43 | *** join/#openmoko cz_jc (n=jc@88.146.126.102) |
| 12:05.58 | Amorphous | are sd cards really so unreliably or does the om hardware or our software suck? |
| 12:07.12 | Fox_Muldr | anyone using pimd-utils-contacts? i have a little problem with editing the fields from a contact. as soon as i try to add more than one field i get an exception that there is no backend which can store this field. but in opimd-config i set the backend for contacts to SQLite |
| 12:07.22 | Fox_Muldr | pimd=opimd :) |
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| 12:13.00 | Amorphous | *sigh* just again had a problem that needed an fsck :( |
| 12:13.24 | Amorphous | but dmesg said nothing |
| 12:14.19 | Amorphous | about any errors, in fact it there were no new messages after i connected per usb |
| 12:15.40 | Amorphous | is there some agreement which sd card is the most reliable? the wiki page doesn't say anything about that. |
| 12:16.49 | Fox_Muldr | i use my 8gb sd card for over a year and had never any problems with it in my neo. seems to differ a lot between the models |
| 12:18.31 | Amorphous | Fox_Muldr, which vendor from? |
| 12:18.48 | d1b | Amorphous: i have a 2gb scandisk that works nicely :) (as well) |
| 12:18.57 | d1b | however, im keeping most files in git :) |
| 12:19.17 | Fox_Muldr | sandisk |
| 12:19.47 | Amorphous | :( |
| 12:20.07 | Fox_Muldr | SanDisk MicroSDHC Ultra II 8GB |
| 12:20.16 | Fox_Muldr | to be exact :) |
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| 12:22.35 | Amorphous | oooh the one i currently use is not a sd card labeled by sandisk, but by cnmemory |
| 12:23.43 | Amorphous | the one i currently don't use is from sandisk :) |
| 12:24.01 | Fox_Muldr | i only use sandisk cards for every device i got because i never got problems with these manufacturer |
| 12:27.40 | Amorphous | yea i'll also replace the usb sd card reader that came with the cnmemory card, it was also acting up |
| 12:45.40 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r57cd6710a064 10/fsogsmd/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): fsogsmd: implement org.freesmartphone.GSM.SIM.ListPhonebooks() |
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| 12:56.39 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r823dbfc6c0d2 10/libfsobasics/fsobasics/logger.vala: |
| 12:56.39 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: libfsobasics: logger: return true for debug/info/warning/error/critical, so that we can use it embedded in calls to 'assert' |
| 12:56.39 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: this is version 0.8.3.1 |
| 12:57.12 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r83d3a548f34f 10/libfsobasics/configure.ac: libfsobasics: post-release version bump |
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| 13:18.38 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r4c5d07ef56c5 10/misc-vapi/ (Makefile.am configure.ac): misc-vapi: install a .pc file for detection convenience |
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| 13:38.51 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * re99817a60298 10/libfsobasics/configure.ac: libfsobasics: use pkgconfig to check for misc-vapi |
| 13:38.52 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r19b4d33a4cb0 10/libfsotransport/configure.ac: libfsotransport: use pkgconfig to check for misc-vapi |
| 13:38.53 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r3eb81b80f1fa 10/libfsoframework/configure.ac: libfsoframework: use pkgconfig to check for misc-vapi |
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| 14:55.54 | astrocub | anyone here use a keyboard with their freerunner? |
| 14:56.03 | astrocub | a usb keyboard |
| 14:56.26 | astrocub | would the device instantly detect the keyboard if i attach it? |
| 14:58.09 | radekp | astrocub: you have to switch to device mode |
| 14:58.30 | radekp | astrocub: then plugin the keyboard and if you have all necessary modules it starts working |
| 14:58.42 | lindi- | radekp: no, he has to switch to host mode |
| 14:59.44 | radekp | right - sorry for confusion |
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| 15:06.54 | astrocub | would i be able to type into a text editor to keep track of notes while on the go? |
| 15:07.04 | lindi- | astrocub: sure |
| 15:07.19 | astrocub | oh that's fantastic |
| 15:07.26 | astrocub | how is it as a phone? |
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| 15:07.42 | astrocub | i've heard it's unreliable, but i don't understand why that would be so |
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| 15:08.03 | lindi- | astrocub: the proprietary OS that handles GSM stuff has bugs we can't fix |
| 15:09.28 | astrocub | lindi-: there's proprietary software on the phone or are you talking about something else? |
| 15:10.00 | lindi- | astrocub: there's a separate ARM processor to handle the GSM stuff |
| 15:10.20 | astrocub | what are some bugs? i don't understand |
| 15:10.46 | astrocub | what about using the phone to connect to a wifi signal in-home and place voip calls? |
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| 15:11.51 | astrocub | was planning on switching phone service since verizon doesn't handle gsm stuff, but now i'm a little worried if i should just keep my cheap $10/month plan |
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| 15:12.31 | astrocub | $120/yr isn't much, but i would like to keep it if possible |
| 15:12.42 | astrocub | anyone use their freerunner for all phone usage? |
| 15:13.02 | astrocub | all cell phone usage * |
| 15:13.17 | lindi- | astrocub: i list some bugs in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Lindi |
| 15:13.46 | lindi- | astrocub: wifi works about as reliably as it does on laptops |
| 15:14.07 | astrocub | it's the gsm which has trouble then.. |
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| 15:14.37 | lindi- | astrocub: yep |
| 15:15.00 | lindi- | astrocub: numerous different issues |
| 15:15.30 | astrocub | lindi-: do you have an estimated percentage or could you form one quickly of how often you can place phone calls using gsm? |
| 15:16.25 | lindi- | astrocub: I have a watchdog that will restart the GSM related hardware if it detects that things are not working |
| 15:16.40 | astrocub | e.g. able to place calls 30% while 70% of the time not able to place calls |
| 15:16.52 | astrocub | oh, well then i suppose that makes it difficult to estimate |
| 15:16.52 | lindi- | astrocub: depends on whether you use gprs :) |
| 15:17.03 | astrocub | gprs is the watchdog? |
| 15:17.19 | astrocub | nope |
| 15:17.29 | lindi- | astrocub: GPRS is a standard for sending IP traffic in GSM network |
| 15:18.59 | astrocub | so without gprs, 30% success rate? |
| 15:19.32 | lindi- | astrocub: it's lot better than that :) |
| 15:19.40 | astrocub | 60% then? |
| 15:20.04 | lindi- | astrocub: i tried to measure it with automated calls from my voip provider but it turned out that my voip provider is not reliable enough :) |
| 15:20.42 | lindi- | astrocub: besides, calling out is not a problem, you can always restart the gsm hardware and try again. |
| 15:20.44 | astrocub | can't you just use something like asterisk + google voice for home-usage, i bet that would be reliable enough |
| 15:20.48 | lindi- | astrocub: what matters is receiving calls |
| 15:21.07 | lindi- | astrocub: well the local voip provider is less reliable than GSM :) |
| 15:21.24 | lindi- | for that I have numbers somewhere, wait :) |
| 15:21.27 | astrocub | oh, i wonder how that would work exactly... receiving calls via voip |
| 15:23.43 | astrocub | google voice can redirect the calls to your gsm and your asterisk #, but i don't know if it would be technically voip since it would need some land line number to reach asterisk, it would voip with landlines involved i suppose. |
| 15:24.55 | lindi- | astrocub: how do you wake the phone from suspend to receive the call? |
| 15:25.15 | astrocub | i haven't a clue |
| 15:25.27 | astrocub | don't suspend it |
| 15:26.27 | lindi- | astrocub: you need to suspend it or the battery will run out in 12 hours |
| 15:26.55 | lindi- | astrocub: see http://lindi.iki.fi/lindi/saunalahti-voip/avail.cgi.html for availability statistics of my voip provider |
| 15:29.22 | astrocub | lindi-: not a big deal, i'm not gone for 12 hours from the house, and while it's here i can just charge it. i don't have to let it run all the way down before charging, right? |
| 15:30.03 | astrocub | while on trips, i will have to rely on receiving calls through gsm |
| 15:30.03 | lindi- | astrocub: ok in that setting it will work. however, freerunner does not have the CPU power needed to do echo cancellation for voip |
| 15:30.14 | lindi- | astrocub: so you need a headset to cancel echo |
| 15:30.15 | astrocub | does the gsm have to enable gprs for freerunner to work? |
| 15:30.28 | lindi- | astrocub: no, gprs is totaly optional of course |
| 15:30.52 | astrocub | thank you for this advice: 10:26:06 lindi- | astrocub: so you need a headset to cancel echo |
| 15:31.18 | lindi- | astrocub: or you need to write some optimized echo cancellation algorithm :) |
| 15:32.01 | astrocub | thanks for the link, that's very interesting |
| 15:32.15 | astrocub | okay, i'm afk for a little bit, i really can't thank you enough lindi- for your helpful advice |
| 15:32.30 | astrocub | and radekp, thanks as well :) |
| 15:39.44 | radekp | astrocub: np :) |
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| 16:04.39 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03seba.dos1 07dos/opimd-tracking * rb27c2f9899e8 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/opimd.py: opimd: init phone-utils earlier. Fixes wrong comparition values for phone numbers in contacts loaded at boot. |
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| 16:13.30 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03seba.dos1 07dos/opimd-tracking * rec50832f66cb 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/docs/TODO: opimd: update TODO |
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| 16:29.08 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * rafd0df8d916c 10/ (3 files in 2 dirs): misc-vapi: add .pc.in file |
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| 16:43.24 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07specs * re3c8babea9a8 10/ (4 files in 2 dirs): document parameter structs used in org.freesmartphone.GSM.Network* and org.freesmartphone.GSM.SIM* |
| 16:43.28 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07libfso-glib * r948b6e35eb07 10/src/ (5 files): regen |
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| 16:52.11 | naruto | hi all |
| 16:52.25 | naruto | is there a way to implement shake to wake the omoko from standby? |
| 16:53.31 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * rb47e2c46efbc 10/fsogsmd/ (3 files in 2 dirs): fsogsmd: integrate PlusCOPS_Test() into PlusCOPS(), use autgenerated NetworkProvider struct from specs |
| 16:54.43 | mickey|bbl | yes. support for this will be added to FSO at some point, but for now you can realize this by setting accel wakeup threshhold to a large value and then suspending |
| 16:55.19 | narut | mickey|bbl: can you give me some hint on where to look for papers? |
| 16:55.23 | narut | on the website? |
| 16:55.39 | mickey|bbl | there's a whole wiki page about the accelerometrs |
| 17:01.39 | PaulFertser | Funny thing, today is the first day i found gta02 has a way to lock the sim in place. |
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| 17:21.21 | SeligArkin | WRT54G |
| 17:21.32 | SeligArkin | Bah, sorry, wrong channel |
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| 18:22.35 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r9b68dd081f5a 10/fsogsmd/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): fsogsmd: start w/ phonebook reading |
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| 19:06.55 | objorn | lindi-, or whoever can answer: do i need to check around to see which wireless companies provide gprs with their gsm service? |
| 19:07.58 | objorn | or would i be using any gsm tower nearby, regardless who owns it? |
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| 19:57.40 | lindi- | objorn: where do you live? |
| 19:59.15 | objorn | usa |
| 20:01.13 | objorn | lindi-: ^ |
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| 20:01.30 | lindi- | objorn: well in general you need to have a data contract with your provider |
| 20:02.01 | objorn | what am i looking for in this contract specific to freerunner? |
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| 20:02.28 | objorn | suppose it's what i'm willing to pay for really |
| 20:02.44 | objorn | i'm guessing i would pay more to use just any gsm tower |
| 20:02.55 | objorn | not really sure if this is how it typically works |
| 20:04.01 | lindi- | objorn: i have no idea what terminology they might use in usa |
| 20:06.25 | lindi- | objorn: but freerunner is just a regular GSM device that can do GPRS |
| 20:07.25 | objorn | one which tends to have less qualms with gprs then regular gsm? |
| 20:08.32 | lindi- | objorn: regular gsm? |
| 20:09.17 | PaulFertser | lindi-: (usa terminology) lol |
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| 20:18.54 | objorn | lindi-: guessing i need to read up more on gsm |
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| 21:14.50 | der-lehmann | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erdl6Lz6fGo wtf neo1973 is faster than the freerunner?? |
| 21:15.41 | SpeedEvil | In some cases yes. |
| 21:15.53 | SpeedEvil | The graphics accellerator is usually a wash. |
| 21:15.59 | SpeedEvil | It's not always that good. |
| 21:17.28 | der-lehmann | will it better with kdrive or kms? |
| 21:17.57 | SpeedEvil | I don't know. |
| 21:18.17 | SpeedEvil | The fundamental problem is that the accellerator chip is sitting on a 7 megabyte/second bus. |
| 21:18.31 | SpeedEvil | And it's not that great in the first place. |
| 21:19.03 | SpeedEvil | the neo1973 has _much_ faster access to raw framebuffer than that, if you're not doing stuff the accellerator chip accelelrates |
| 21:20.33 | der-lehmann | ok ok thants not nice! but on the other hand we need a good looking giu to get more users |
| 21:21.18 | SpeedEvil | Well - yes. |
| 21:21.41 | SpeedEvil | But the choice of chip was unfortunate. |
| 21:22.20 | SpeedEvil | to the extent that leaving it out and just connecting the LCD directly to the framebuffer would have been considerably faster - given the faster processor in the FR |
| 21:23.13 | der-lehmann | like directfb? |
| 21:23.22 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 21:23.25 | SpeedEvil | The hardware. |
| 21:23.56 | SpeedEvil | At the moment, the graphics card is basically a state of the art 1994 one, on the equivalent of a 16 bit ISA bus. |
| 21:24.09 | SpeedEvil | yes, it's accellerated. |
| 21:24.27 | SpeedEvil | but the bus is so slow that the accelleration you get is often negated by that. |
| 21:25.00 | SpeedEvil | The CPU also supports a directly connected LCD - but with no accelleraiton at all. But you could write to the framebuffer at ~100MB/s not 6. |
| 21:25.05 | der-lehmann | but is this really a proplem to bilud an nice looking gui for phone apps |
| 21:25.19 | SpeedEvil | I don't think so. |
| 21:25.36 | SpeedEvil | I don't think the original neo1973 hardware had fundamental problems that way |
| 21:30.41 | der-lehmann | iam not a programmer! only a user! with shr-u in daily use! its really nice but it must be better |
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| 21:48.34 | der-lehmann | good night |
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| 22:59.53 | *** part/#openmoko otypoks (n=e55c2403@xkh1g1.infr.xiaoka.com) |
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