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| 00:35.48 | Digital_Pioneer | TAsn: Oh, opkg upgrading breaks everything now? |
| 00:36.06 | ndnihil | now? |
| 00:36.09 | ndnihil | did it ever work before? |
| 00:36.18 | Digital_Pioneer | Yeah, it's almost always worked for me. |
| 00:36.40 | ndnihil | I never tried it, but mainly because of all the reports of it breaking everything |
| 00:37.01 | Digital_Pioneer | ndnihil: It never broke much for me. |
| 00:37.18 | Digital_Pioneer | ndnihil: What it did break, typically got fixed a couple days later after the next one. |
| 00:37.54 | Digital_Pioneer | ndnihil: Right now though, it annihilates the entire GSM system... |
| 00:37.59 | ndnihil | eek |
| 00:38.01 | Digital_Pioneer | And all of Frameworkd, I imagine. |
| 00:38.32 | drascus321 | huh i did it just like two days ago and it broke nothing |
| 00:39.06 | Digital_Pioneer | drascus321: It killed everything for me. :( |
| 00:39.32 | drascus321 | himm maybe it was something specific to your install but that's just a guess |
| 00:39.39 | Digital_Pioneer | drascus321: Possible. |
| 00:39.49 | drascus321 | when I did it, it was on a fresh install |
| 00:40.16 | Digital_Pioneer | Mine was on a fairly fresh install, but it wasn't really an opkg upgrade. It was reinstalling every package that was on my system before I reflashed. |
| 00:40.21 | Digital_Pioneer | Which apparently does not work. |
| 00:44.53 | *** join/#openmoko awwaiid (i=awwaiid@c-98-204-94-128.hsd1.dc.comcast.net) |
| 00:49.13 | drascus321 | well maybe it's not just you i just did ipkg_listupgradable and it was like a bunch of stuff |
| 00:50.04 | drascus321 | i am not even attempting it i just got this thing working the way i want |
| 00:51.12 | *** join/#openmoko DieMumie1 (n=DieMumie@p54945675.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 00:51.34 | drascus321 | has anyone else run an upgrade today that could shed some light on things |
| 00:58.59 | dos1 | Digital_Pioneer: no, only fsousaged |
| 00:59.15 | dos1 | Digital_Pioneer: GSM and frameworkd is working ok, but ophonekitd needs ousaged interface to register to GSM network |
| 00:59.33 | dos1 | Digital_Pioneer: quick workaround can be disabling fsousaged and enabling ousaged back |
| 01:00.15 | dos1 | Digital_Pioneer: image from 8.08 is fine. 9.08 was builded broken package. |
| 01:00.28 | dos1 | Digital_Pioneer: so if you don't care about flashing, then just flash newest image |
| 01:00.39 | dos1 | Digital_Pioneer: but if you don't want reflashing, then enable ousaged |
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| 01:05.31 | jjwc | is liking QtMoko quite a bit. |
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| 02:12.30 | Slaxxer | iptables -A POSTROUTING -t nat -j MASQUERADE -s 192.168.0.0/24 |
| 02:12.31 | Slaxxer | <Slaxxed> sysctl -w net.ipv4.ip_forward=1 |
| 02:12.31 | Slaxxer | <Slaxxed> ifconfig eth2 up |
| 02:12.31 | Slaxxer | <Slaxxed> ip addr add 192.168.0.200/28 dev eth2 |
| 02:12.31 | Slaxxer | <Slaxxed> ssh root@192.168.0.202 |
| 02:12.38 | Slaxxer | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:13.00 | Slaxxer | ip addr add 192.168.0.200/28 dev eth2_rename |
| 02:20.34 | Digital_Pioneer | Where do I get the latest SHR-U image? |
| 02:23.18 | *** join/#openmoko Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 02:23.32 | ndnihil | build.shr-project.org I think it is |
| 02:24.59 | Digital_Pioneer | ndnihil: Yeah, but all I can find is a dir listing of hundreds of files... It'll take forever to find the latest one. |
| 02:25.07 | ndnihil | check the dates |
| 02:25.11 | Digital_Pioneer | And only the kernel has "latest" in it. |
| 02:25.19 | Digital_Pioneer | Yeah, well what's the date of the latest one? |
| 02:25.30 | ndnihil | the most recent date listed I'd imagine |
| 02:25.30 | *** join/#openmoko pcfe (n=pcfe@a88-115-12-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 02:25.33 | raster | the one with the most recent date? |
| 02:31.12 | Digital_Pioneer | Yeah, but they were sorted alphabetically, so the dates were all mixed up. I just realized I can sort by date instead. :P |
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| 02:32.07 | *** join/#openmoko ShellEvil (n=user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) |
| 02:34.32 | raster | you could also do the unthinkable... and read the dates :) |
| 02:40.31 | *** join/#openmoko Slaxxer (n=brian@ip72-204-125-6.fv.ks.cox.net) |
| 02:41.58 | rooly | is sore |
| 02:42.56 | drascus321 | http://build.shr-project.org/shr-unstable/images/om-gta02/ |
| 02:43.35 | rooly | drascus321: how in the hell does that possibly help the lactic acid built up in my muscles? |
| 02:44.41 | drascus321 | I don't know I was answering a question posted like 20min ago I left my window scrolled up by accident |
| 02:45.17 | rooly | oh, okay |
| 02:45.21 | Slaxxer | :) |
| 02:45.44 | Slaxxer | release the lactic acid |
| 02:45.58 | rooly | hrmph |
| 02:46.00 | rooly | 's not that easy |
| 02:46.06 | drascus321 | oh lactic acid problems how about leaches |
| 02:47.12 | rooly | but i NEED my blood... |
| 02:48.25 | Slaxxer | are u mussel building? |
| 02:48.31 | Slaxxer | c |
| 02:48.53 | rooly | no |
| 02:48.58 | drascus321 | well see that's why I never got a medical degree |
| 02:48.59 | rooly | but i have brothers and a pool... |
| 02:51.34 | Slaxxer | work it off |
| 02:51.43 | rooly | i plan to sleep it off |
| 02:59.03 | *** join/#openmoko MHazem (n=Satan@196.205.191.101) |
| 03:08.51 | Digital_Pioneer | So what are the chances of getting an SMS-friendly Google Voice app in SHR-U? :P |
| 03:09.14 | raster | rooly: potassium |
| 03:09.22 | rooly | raster: no banan's |
| 03:09.25 | rooly | and no pickles |
| 03:09.30 | rooly | i'm shit outta luck |
| 03:09.39 | Digital_Pioneer | SMS is ridiculously expensive on my plan (screw you, AT&T), so right now I have to go through GV if I want to SMS. I'd like to be able to do it from my phone. |
| 03:09.42 | raster | if your muscles are feeling weak like you've just done a really hard workout... u need potassium |
| 03:09.52 | rooly | raster: not weak |
| 03:09.54 | rooly | sore |
| 03:09.56 | rooly | as in hurting |
| 03:10.00 | Digital_Pioneer | Will require a GPRS plan, but it's still a heck of a lot cheaper to pay 1c/kb than 20c/SMS |
| 03:10.00 | rooly | as in ouch |
| 03:10.01 | raster | hmm |
| 03:10.07 | raster | sleep it off |
| 03:10.14 | rooly | was the plan, now wasn't it |
| 03:10.18 | raster | thats the only thing i've ever done |
| 03:10.22 | rooly | Digital_Pioneer: i'm about to start working on one |
| 03:10.29 | raster | they'll be right again when u wake up |
| 03:10.30 | Digital_Pioneer | rooly: Really? |
| 03:10.37 | rooly | Digital_Pioneer: yeah, i just got my invite |
| 03:10.44 | ndnihil | <-- writing an SMS remote utility |
| 03:10.47 | Digital_Pioneer | rooly: Sweet. If you need testing, let me know! I have an account too. |
| 03:10.52 | raster | Digital_Pioneer: check with your telco as to your options |
| 03:10.58 | ndnihil | kinda like lojack |
| 03:10.59 | rooly | gonna need to figure out the api that isn't provided tho |
| 03:11.11 | rooly | ndnihil: you mean sms-sentry? |
| 03:11.14 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: I don't really want to buy a plan... IDK if I'd use it all. I only really SMS with one person. |
| 03:11.18 | ndnihil | yeah, except something that will work |
| 03:11.31 | ndnihil | I think the dbus methods/signals changed since that was written |
| 03:11.39 | ndnihil | this will have more features as well |
| 03:11.43 | rooly | ic |
| 03:11.46 | Digital_Pioneer | Cool. |
| 03:11.49 | rooly | why don't you rip of that code |
| 03:11.53 | ndnihil | callback features for listening in and data sessions |
| 03:11.54 | rooly | isn't it in python anyway? |
| 03:11.57 | ndnihil | ACL's |
| 03:12.03 | ndnihil | yeah, sms-sentry is python |
| 03:12.07 | ndnihil | mine is perl :) |
| 03:12.29 | ndnihil | and will likely (eventually) include a perl-tk GUI configuration utility |
| 03:12.56 | rooly | Digital_Pioneer: it won't get done for a while |
| 03:13.00 | rooly | i have a lot of stuff on my plate |
| 03:13.08 | rooly | but its on the book |
| 03:13.20 | Digital_Pioneer | rooly: Well, let me know when you get something workable. :) |
| 03:13.30 | rooly | i'll talk about it in here when i do |
| 03:13.39 | rooly | i'll eventually post something to the wiki |
| 03:13.42 | rooly | when i feel its ready |
| 03:15.01 | raster | Digital_Pioneer: if u want non-silly datarates, you agree to a plan of some sort |
| 03:15.24 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: True, true. |
| 03:15.28 | raster | ie you agree to buy data in bulk and always buy a minimum amount - thus the telco gives you a discount. a very big one. the mopre you buy, the bigger tyhe discount |
| 03:15.34 | raster | itts pretty simple. |
| 03:15.41 | rooly | yeah |
| 03:15.44 | raster | dont agree to buy - they will happily sell you "on demand" |
| 03:15.46 | rooly | but it's easier in the US |
| 03:15.52 | raster | and they will charge a lot per unit (kb) |
| 03:16.07 | raster | some offer "unlimited" |
| 03:16.10 | raster | but its really the same |
| 03:16.13 | ndnihil | you can use data without a data plan on verizon here in the US |
| 03:16.14 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: I know that. :) But I want to make sure I'll use the entire bulk I buy. |
| 03:16.16 | raster | u agreed to buy "5gb" |
| 03:16.17 | rooly | over here, we have pay-as-you-go and unlimited |
| 03:16.35 | raster | there are invisible limits - if they find u using too much they can throttle/cacnel etc. |
| 03:16.38 | ndnihil | but you have to set up your own proxy |
| 03:16.51 | raster | invariably thats entirely up to you |
| 03:17.04 | rooly | yeah |
| 03:17.11 | ndnihil | not sure of the legality, but it works and they dont charge you for it unless you use a lot and they notice |
| 03:17.13 | rooly | chances of using your entire data plan on this phone... |
| 03:17.14 | rooly | yeah |
| 03:17.16 | rooly | about nil |
| 03:17.18 | raster | the more you buy ijn bulk, the less u pay per kb. |
| 03:17.30 | Digital_Pioneer | Anyways, they overcharge for SMS so ridiculously, I refuse to buy a plan for it. Data transfer is a different matter. |
| 03:17.40 | raster | the best solution is "how much am i willing to pay a month - relative to what is my likely maximum data usage?" |
| 03:17.46 | raster | that way you never get any nasty surprises |
| 03:18.07 | raster | (eg you paid for 500mb, but used 5gb, and they charge you excess data charges over the 500m at a high rate) |
| 03:18.31 | rooly | Digital_Pioneer: you realize that this would absolutely destroy your battery |
| 03:18.40 | raster | technically speaking - u can do a data call to any gsm mobile |
| 03:18.47 | rooly | my app... |
| 03:19.01 | raster | but that comes under your phone-calls in minutes |
| 03:19.03 | rooly | would need significant optimization for the FR |
| 03:19.04 | Digital_Pioneer | What ticks me off is, an SMS costs less to transfer, bit for bit, than data. An SMS is, maximally, almost .2 KB. It costs 20 cents per SMS, vs. 1 cent per KB of data. |
| 03:19.15 | raster | and your datarate i think will be 9600baud |
| 03:19.34 | raster | Digital_Pioneer: cant comapre sms vs data bit-for-bit |
| 03:19.34 | Digital_Pioneer | rooly: True, true. |
| 03:19.41 | raster | they are very different transfer mechanisms |
| 03:19.43 | rooly | raster: didn't you once say that phone companies filter non-human sounds via codecs |
| 03:19.44 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: No, but close enough. |
| 03:19.53 | raster | yes - sms's are expensive |
| 03:20.06 | raster | Digital_Pioneer: not really. u are using the network control channel |
| 03:20.07 | rooly | therefore gsm data is only theoretical |
| 03:20.14 | raster | it was never intended for mass data xfer |
| 03:20.27 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: True, but it's free to use it for that. |
| 03:20.34 | raster | rooly: depends. gsm audio - yes |
| 03:20.40 | raster | but u can do a DATA cal |
| 03:20.40 | raster | l |
| 03:20.41 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: Unless I'm mistaken. |
| 03:20.48 | raster | llit literally comes out the other end like a modem call |
| 03:20.58 | raster | if going to another phone its like a fax call |
| 03:21.31 | raster | Digital_Pioneer: its ythe network control channel - it was intended for control of the network and devices. it's specially allocated bandwidth (Channels) for it |
| 03:21.36 | raster | it wasint INTENDEd for data xfer |
| 03:21.48 | raster | in fact generally speaking 2g networks were not intended for data |
| 03:21.59 | raster | they can do it - but it was a "well we happen to be able to on the odd occasion" |
| 03:22.16 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: Yeah, but you can send SMS's through there quite easily. That's the point. |
| 03:22.38 | raster | telcos try and get data onto their 3g+ netyworks because that is when telcos woke up to the "shit! data is important. people want to use the internet etc." |
| 03:22.38 | raster | you can |
| 03:22.39 | raster | ok - put it this way |
| 03:22.56 | raster | you can get to work by taking a limo |
| 03:22.59 | raster | the limo service was intended for the odd occasion of a special event |
| 03:23.04 | raster | eg wedding, formal, etc. etc. |
| 03:23.12 | raster | sure - u can use tyhe limo to go to and from work each day. |
| 03:23.20 | raster | it does do that - but it wasnt INTEDED for it |
| 03:23.33 | raster | and you will bitch and moan about how expensive the limo is compared to the train. |
| 03:23.36 | rooly | therfore not optimized towards that scenario |
| 03:23.47 | raster | the network control channel was not INTENDEd for bulk data transfer |
| 03:23.53 | raster | it can be used for it |
| 03:24.00 | raster | and sms is an accident of history |
| 03:24.02 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: Well, the way it was explained to me is, the limos are already going to and from work each day... You just catch a ride on what's already there. |
| 03:24.11 | raster | read up on sms and how it came about that it is used now. |
| 03:24.35 | raster | ooh no |
| 03:24.41 | raster | the limos are in the limo companies lot |
| 03:25.21 | raster | you're paying for them to take it out and take you to work |
| 03:25.21 | raster | again - read up on sms and how it works. |
| 03:25.21 | Slaxxer | 100 dollars a lick |
| 03:25.21 | raster | it's an accident of history |
| 03:25.30 | rooly | raster: is a 3g antenna any different than a 2g? |
| 03:25.35 | raster | and comparing sms data to other data is litm comparing the limo to the bus |
| 03:25.38 | Slaxxer | build a new free protocol |
| 03:25.50 | raster | the bus was intended for transport en-masse of lots of people from A to B |
| 03:25.55 | rooly | or is gsm in general the same |
| 03:26.17 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: Well, I wouldn't doubt that I'm wrong. I understood that since that channel was already open, it didn't cost a thing to send SMS over it. |
| 03:26.27 | raster | rooly: that, i don't know. the protocols on the wire are, as is encryption (2g encrytion can be broken in short-order with very little effort, 3g encryption has yet to be cracked) |
| 03:26.49 | rooly | ic |
| 03:26.59 | raster | Digital_Pioneer: since the bus is already taking peolpe on its route... shouldnt it be free since its already driving around? |
| 03:26.59 | Slaxxer | freeride!! |
| 03:27.11 | raster | :) |
| 03:27.21 | raster | all public transprot (trains, busses, planes) should be cheap/free |
| 03:27.25 | rooly | because i was wondering if a hardware hack to the freerunner using a 3g modem chip wired to the antenna and passed thru the usb bus might work |
| 03:27.28 | raster | as they are already driving/flying their routes! |
| 03:27.32 | Slaxxer | todays hackable1 coming up |
| 03:27.34 | raster | (being sarchastic) |
| 03:27.51 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: The bus exists to take people along the route, so no. The control channel is for... Whatever it's for. SMS are just freeloaders that catch a ride, no? So it should be _cheap_ at least. |
| 03:27.59 | raster | sms is expensive because originally the high costs of sms's were to cover the high infrastructure cost |
| 03:28.15 | ShellEvil | rooly: yes - but they are not chips - they are modules |
| 03:28.20 | raster | but - peolpe jumped onto sms's - in other countries long before the usa every even knew what text messaging was |
| 03:28.23 | ShellEvil | rooly: and it's complex |
| 03:28.24 | raster | the us is far behind there. |
| 03:28.36 | raster | and people are WILLING to pay the amount the telcos are charging |
| 03:28.44 | raster | in any market your charge what the market is willing to pay |
| 03:28.56 | Slaxxer | here is the problem |
| 03:29.04 | raster | if they are willing to pay silly amounts - you keep charging it. its simply business principles that every busainess is built on. |
| 03:29.06 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: Yeah, and it sucks, and I'm not willing to pay it. :) |
| 03:29.18 | *** join/#openmoko RamsesFSFE (n=RamsesFS@internetautobahn.de) |
| 03:29.18 | Slaxxer | all except for the used car market |
| 03:29.25 | raster | until epeople just stop sending sms's and start using some other m3echanism (eg data sessions) it wont change |
| 03:29.35 | raster | or simply stop sending messages entirelyu and go back to the old fashioned |
| 03:29.37 | Digital_Pioneer | That's my point... I just complain because it doesn't NEED to cost that much. |
| 03:29.55 | raster | "i'll meet you at the bar and talk about it over a beer" rather than hold conversations over sms. |
| 03:30.02 | rooly | hmm |
| 03:30.02 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: Well, that's not going to happen. :P |
| 03:30.03 | rooly | your right |
| 03:30.06 | rooly | that'd be much cheaper |
| 03:30.07 | SpeedEvil | Digital_Pioneer: They have to make money in some way |
| 03:30.17 | raster | well then - pay for your sms;s |
| 03:30.19 | rooly | for you, i mean |
| 03:30.20 | rooly | not me |
| 03:30.22 | SpeedEvil | Digital_Pioneer: Otherwise they can't build/maintain nets. |
| 03:30.28 | raster | unless you are willing to change what you buy - they will not change |
| 03:30.33 | rooly | has unlimited sms/data for 30$/month |
| 03:30.41 | Digital_Pioneer | SpeedEvil: Sure, but from what I understand, the amount they charge for SMS vs. the cost to provide it is a massive difference. |
| 03:30.49 | raster | if they start finding peolpe stopping to use sms because its too much (and thus lower prices to get people to buy again)... it will stay high |
| 03:30.51 | Slaxxer | but 3 billion dollars? Gooosh |
| 03:30.52 | raster | simply econmoics |
| 03:30.55 | raster | simple |
| 03:31.06 | Digital_Pioneer | Yeah. |
| 03:31.18 | raster | i do contract work |
| 03:31.18 | Digital_Pioneer | So I want to use a data plan, because it's a heck of a lot cheaper. :) |
| 03:31.31 | raster | i charge a lot more than your mcdonalds employee gets per hour |
| 03:31.33 | rooly | hey |
| 03:31.34 | rooly | raster |
| 03:31.37 | Digital_Pioneer | I can send many SMS's in one KB of data. |
| 03:31.42 | rooly | do you use the fr ever as a daily phone? |
| 03:31.48 | Digital_Pioneer | (Well, maybe not, but you see my point) |
| 03:32.01 | SpeedEvil | Digital_Pioneer: Sure. And would you rather pay more rental and have cheap SMSs? |
| 03:32.40 | rooly | hell |
| 03:32.42 | rooly | anyone |
| 03:32.44 | rooly | SpeedEvil: |
| 03:32.46 | rooly | you? |
| 03:32.49 | raster | you cant say "but the mcdonalds guy gets $7/hr! you must charge the same". hell no. clients are willint to pay what i charge and as long as they are willing to do so, i shall keep charging what i do. i will adjust what i charge according to supply and demand. telcos are much the same. |
| 03:33.18 | raster | Digital_Pioneer: bingo. so.. pay your $20/month for a lump of data |
| 03:33.22 | raster | and use data instead orf sms's |
| 03:33.33 | raster | don't complain about sms charges - just move your business elsewhere |
| 03:33.37 | raster | like all things. |
| 03:33.55 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: Yeah, it's true, and I'm not willing to pay it, so I'm ticked off because everyone else is. :P They're keeping the prices up. |
| 03:33.55 | raster | if sms's do the job you need and the price is acceptable - dont change. |
| 03:34.00 | raster | rooly: nup. |
| 03:34.06 | Slaxxer | 20 dollars for lump data |
| 03:34.10 | rooly | oy |
| 03:34.15 | rooly | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:34.24 | rooly | okay |
| 03:34.26 | rooly | thats better |
| 03:34.36 | SpeedEvil | For example - in the UK - I can get for 15 quid a month - free texts and 300 mins talk/mo included |
| 03:34.48 | Digital_Pioneer | Heheheh |
| 03:34.58 | raster | Digital_Pioneer: supply vs demand. and demand is still high, so... nothngi you can do about everyone else. the telc isnto going to magically change prices for just you. :) they have enough other people willing to pay what they charge. |
| 03:35.31 | raster | hell i know that in the usa and here u can get "bulk messaging plans" where you can buy 100, 500, 1000, or "unlimited" sms's - like with data - you pay a monthly fixed fee for up to X sms's |
| 03:35.37 | raster | you can buy one of those. |
| 03:35.45 | rooly | mmhmm |
| 03:35.54 | rooly | at&t offers 250, 1500, and unlimited |
| 03:35.58 | raster | rooly: the gta02 simpy has too many things wrong with it for me to use as a phone. |
| 03:36.09 | rooly | 's fine |
| 03:36.19 | raster | (for me) |
| 03:36.24 | rooly | i was just wondering if anybody else gets voicemail notifications the same as i do |
| 03:36.44 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: Yeah, but I don't use that many SMSs. If I did, I would get one of those plans. Then again, if I got one of those plans, I might use that many SMSs. It's the chicken and egg. |
| 03:36.51 | raster | i turned off voicemail on my account like 6 years ago |
| 03:36.54 | raster | and havent looked back |
| 03:36.57 | raster | i hate voicemail |
| 03:36.58 | Digital_Pioneer | So for now, I use GV. |
| 03:37.10 | raster | Digital_Pioneer: well its simply numbers. |
| 03:37.15 | raster | if you send 10 sms's a month |
| 03:37.24 | raster | and you pay $0.25 per sms... thats $2.50 pe month |
| 03:37.32 | raster | or u can buy 500 sms's for $10/month |
| 03:37.42 | raster | either way its cheaper to pay per sms even if it is $0.25 |
| 03:37.43 | Digital_Pioneer | True. :) |
| 03:37.55 | raster | simply go for the option that makes the end bill cheaper |
| 03:38.13 | raster | example - my phone plan is a "usage only" one (except for data) |
| 03:38.19 | raster | i make 0 calls a month.. it costs me $0 |
| 03:38.42 | Digital_Pioneer | But I prefer to use GV. It's cheaper still. |
| 03:38.43 | raster | (the telco stopped offering these plans... they realised it was silly, but i've stuck on mine for about 7 years now) |
| 03:38.54 | Digital_Pioneer | raster: Mines the same way. |
| 03:39.07 | raster | sure - i can get a $30/month plan and get "$500 worth of included call and text credit" |
| 03:39.15 | raster | sure - but thats $30/mo |
| 03:39.31 | raster | my normal bills are more like $5-$10/mo or even less some are like $2 |
| 03:40.13 | raster | i pay more per minute/sms that i d on a #30 plan (that effectively costs like $0.02 per sms or $0.10 per minute for calls) |
| 03:40.28 | raster | i pay more per unit.. but i consume so little - i'm better off. |
| 03:40.43 | raster | so - you do the same. figure out what in the end is cheaper for you |
| 03:41.01 | raster | stop worrying about hoe much per kb or per min or per sms u pay and what the final bill is. |
| 03:41.24 | raster | :) |
| 03:41.38 | raster | and if u can lower the final bill by moving sms's to data... do that |
| 03:41.46 | raster | but it may mean buying as lump of data "bulk" |
| 03:41.48 | Digital_Pioneer | Yeah, yeah, OK, OK. What I really want is to have it for free. LOL |
| 03:41.56 | raster | doesnt everyone |
| 03:42.05 | raster | but thats not going to happen :) |
| 03:42.09 | *** join/#openmoko johnsu01 (n=user@fencepost.gnu.org) |
| 03:42.10 | Digital_Pioneer | :D |
| 03:42.12 | raster | no such thing as a free lunch. |
| 03:42.15 | jjwc | thinks like Digital_Pioneer |
| 03:42.22 | Digital_Pioneer | jjwc: Heheh |
| 03:42.23 | rooly | hmm |
| 03:42.27 | rooly | i've had free lunch many times |
| 03:42.47 | jjwc | Actually, all I want is a device that uses WiFi for email and browsing and GSM for dialing numbers. |
| 03:43.03 | raster | rooly: somehow it was paid for |
| 03:43.04 | raster | :) |
| 03:43.06 | jjwc | I don't want a data plan, a texting plan, or anything else. |
| 03:43.19 | raster | someone pays for it somewhere.. and sooner or later the cost will come back to you |
| 03:43.20 | raster | :) |
| 03:43.36 | SpeedEvil | jjwc: where are you? |
| 03:43.36 | rooly | raster: oh, for sure. but people who say the no free lunch thing forget how close-minded the guy who's getting the free lunch is |
| 03:43.44 | Digital_Pioneer | jjwc: Same with me, except WiFi is unreliable. |
| 03:43.46 | rooly | because |
| 03:43.50 | rooly | as far as he's concerned |
| 03:43.52 | rooly | free lunch it is |
| 03:43.58 | raster | rooly: hahahhaah |
| 03:43.59 | jjwc | SpeedEvil: US. I'm on a college campus 90% of the time, so WiFi is plentiful. |
| 03:44.04 | raster | indeed |
| 03:44.14 | raster | if you cant think very far... it may seem free |
| 03:44.15 | raster | :) |
| 03:44.20 | rooly | yah |
| 03:44.23 | rooly | so anywho |
| 03:44.36 | rooly | does ANYONE ELSE experience the same issue i have with incoming voicemail notifications |
| 03:44.45 | rooly | as in, it arrives a special SMS |
| 03:44.52 | Digital_Pioneer | rooly: Yeah, I have that. |
| 03:44.59 | Digital_Pioneer | rooly: And another one comes in when I delete them. |
| 03:45.04 | rooly | right |
| 03:45.07 | *** join/#openmoko kkb110 (n=kkb110@c-68-82-181-52.hsd1.de.comcast.net) |
| 03:45.19 | Digital_Pioneer | rooly: Looks like a couple of bytes of binary, displayed as ASCII or something. |
| 03:45.25 | rooly | hold on a moment while i go look at what it is |
| 03:45.48 | rooly | is yoru new voicemail _@? |
| 03:45.50 | rooly | _@ |
| 03:46.20 | Digital_Pioneer | rooly: I don't have any, I delete them, so I can't be sure, but I don't think so. |
| 03:46.25 | Digital_Pioneer | Mine have a triangle in them, I think. |
| 03:46.37 | Digital_Pioneer | Not a character on the keyboard. |
| 03:46.59 | rooly | i wasn't sure if it would be carrier specific |
| 03:47.10 | raster | not surprising |
| 03:47.10 | Digital_Pioneer | Yeah. |
| 03:47.12 | rooly | but then again, most phones get customized |
| 03:47.19 | rooly | for a carrier |
| 03:47.24 | raster | there are quite a few speical sms formats with binary in them out there for such things |
| 03:47.42 | raster | there are even ones that send data s4ession setup config to yourt phone for that telco |
| 03:47.55 | raster | so your phone automatically "just works" when tis on that telco's network |
| 03:48.10 | rooly | well apparently not every telco implements that |
| 03:48.16 | raster | no - not all |
| 03:48.17 | raster | some do |
| 03:48.21 | raster | and some phones implementit |
| 03:48.23 | raster | there is a standard for it |
| 03:48.28 | rooly | and not every phone manufacturer implements it |
| 03:48.31 | raster | i believe there are other standards too |
| 03:48.35 | raster | but i dont know the details of them |
| 03:48.39 | rooly | ic |
| 03:48.55 | rooly | we need to collect a database for at least the voicemail notifications |
| 03:48.59 | raster | indeed |
| 03:49.05 | rooly | and possibly mms notifications |
| 03:49.25 | raster | there are some generic ones too that send just notmal text messages |
| 03:49.32 | rooly | that way development could start on applications that could utilize them |
| 03:49.45 | raster | eg optus will send smss telling u u have a missed call if u were not on the network at the time |
| 03:50.12 | raster | this isnt a special format - just normal text, but a way to recognise some "template" messages and turn them into proper notifications would be good |
| 03:50.29 | rooly | it all arrives on the phone as sms anyway |
| 03:50.38 | raster | once u have a way to insert a special handler for sms formats |
| 03:50.42 | rooly | so a text template would be the best way |
| 03:50.51 | raster | then yes - apps that uses these will be able to do cool stuff by such insertions |
| 03:51.12 | raster | onces handling voicemail would do the same thing - a hook looking for a specific binary format sms |
| 03:51.28 | raster | others would look for other formatted sms's (text or binary) etc. |
| 03:51.50 | rooly | well, fso is gonna output the sms content as a string of bytes |
| 03:51.53 | rooly | IE ascii |
| 03:52.00 | rooly | or maybe utf8 |
| 03:52.04 | rooly | iunno |
| 03:52.38 | raster | sms's have an encoding field in the header |
| 03:52.41 | raster | i think |
| 03:53.05 | rooly | so you could simply put a layer between the sms app and fso's callback system to catch special sms's |
| 03:53.17 | raster | yes |
| 03:53.21 | rooly | it would have to be a carrier-string match |
| 03:53.33 | raster | fso would need a way to insert these special handlers in before the sms gets delivered as a "normal sms" |
| 03:53.45 | raster | in fact... |
| 03:53.49 | raster | the system is universal |
| 03:54.32 | rooly | i just wonder sometimes why this kind of stuff hasn't been implemented already |
| 03:54.38 | raster | "normal sms's" are just the very last handler in the list - anything not lready stolen by a prior handler (looking for special formatted sms's" is delivered to the "default sms handler" at the end of the list - and thus put in your sms message store etc. |
| 03:54.59 | rooly | like, back with om2007... |
| 03:55.37 | rooly | your right |
| 03:55.41 | rooly | that's a great system too |
| 03:55.51 | rooly | and the attachment could be done thru dbus |
| 03:55.54 | rooly | with no trouble at all |
| 03:56.00 | rooly | just use a binary mask |
| 03:56.14 | rooly | pass fso a binary mask and a callback mechanism |
| 03:56.21 | rooly | and bam |
| 03:56.40 | rooly | you've now got things like data-session auto configure |
| 03:56.48 | rooly | and voicemail notifications |
| 03:57.01 | *** join/#openmoko Digital_Pioneer (n=digitalp@h17.200.255.206.cable.srcy.cablelynx.com) |
| 03:57.06 | rooly | and whatever else is available |
| 03:57.45 | rooly | which would further pave the way for doing things like the way the iphone handles voice mail |
| 03:58.18 | rooly | anywho |
| 03:58.24 | rooly | i have to wake up at 3 |
| 03:58.26 | rooly | so |
| 03:58.28 | rooly | i'm gonna head out |
| 03:58.30 | rooly | nn guys |
| 03:58.42 | Slaxxer | nn |
| 03:58.46 | rooly | doesn't wanna once again have to be the one to implement something |
| 03:58.51 | rooly | i hate having to do the work... |
| 03:59.09 | rooly | especially when i don't know the system |
| 03:59.10 | rooly | well |
| 03:59.12 | rooly | whatever |
| 03:59.16 | Slaxxer | stop the hate:) |
| 04:02.47 | SpeedEvil | promises rooly ten shiny golden coins for completion of the work. |
| 04:05.07 | SpeedEvil | ( http://alwaysdirect.com/Chocolate-Gold-Coins-24-Bags/M/B002G3OHFI.htm ) |
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| 04:48.29 | Slaxxer | hmmmm opkg not found |
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| 05:09.54 | ndnihil | stabs raster |
| 05:11.22 | SpeedEvil | You can't stab raster. |
| 05:11.32 | ndnihil | hide and watch |
| 05:11.48 | ndnihil | E did the looping crash thing again, he deserved it :) |
| 05:11.54 | SpeedEvil | He's comprised of infinitely thin lines in a grid - the knife just slides right through. |
| 05:12.34 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 05:14.55 | raster | muhahahaha! |
| 05:15.06 | raster | ndnihil: e is perfectly stabkle here |
| 05:15.09 | raster | stable |
| 05:15.10 | raster | :) |
| 05:15.13 | *** join/#openmoko wurp2|lazy (n=wurp@65.111.180.216) |
| 05:15.30 | ndnihil | changed any preferences lately? |
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| 05:15.50 | ndnihil | this is the 3rd or 4th time it has gone into the looping crash after changing settings for me |
| 05:16.06 | raster | nup - i dont change prefs (much) |
| 05:16.11 | ndnihil | one of those times removing ~/.e didn't even work |
| 05:16.18 | raster | pacthes accepted! :) |
| 05:16.30 | raster | nb deleting that shouldnt really fix anything |
| 05:16.44 | ndnihil | it does the trick most of the time |
| 05:16.49 | raster | e actually versions its configds and if a config fails to load - it will fall back to the previous version of the config that did work |
| 05:17.46 | raster | that should avoid any fs problems where u pull the power/battery and the fs doesnt write data to disk (leaves empty 0 byte files as config) |
| 05:17.58 | ndnihil | *shrug* |
| 05:18.06 | ndnihil | maybe I'm doing something it -really- doesn't like |
| 05:18.33 | raster | maybe - just remember. i use e on my desktop and laptop, all day, every day. |
| 05:18.38 | raster | zero crashes. |
| 05:18.59 | raster | so e itself at least as far as i see is pretty solid. no i dont use the illume module on my desktop |
| 05:19.03 | raster | (surprising!) |
| 05:19.03 | raster | :) |
| 05:19.09 | ndnihil | probably on the machines you develop on, where everything is pretty sanitary no? |
| 05:19.19 | raster | right now i dont have any day-to-day device worthy of e |
| 05:19.34 | raster | well my machines are all ubuntu boxes these days |
| 05:19.41 | ndnihil | no offense, but I think I'm going to try a more lightweight wm |
| 05:19.51 | ndnihil | e is awesome on the workstation/laptop |
| 05:19.52 | raster | and i actually svn update and rebuild all of core efl and e on a almost daily basis |
| 05:19.58 | ndnihil | but I think it's just too much for this phone |
| 05:20.00 | raster | as well as hack around with it "live" |
| 05:20.05 | raster | so sanitary isnt what i'd call them |
| 05:20.06 | raster | :) |
| 05:20.34 | raster | the gta02 is a pretty poor device. |
| 05:20.45 | raster | its pushing 4x the pixels its hw was intended for |
| 05:20.58 | raster | likely anything you replace it with will be also fairly poor |
| 05:21.03 | raster | but try away :) |
| 05:21.10 | ndnihil | lxde in neovento responded pretty nicely |
| 05:21.18 | raster | e shoudl too |
| 05:21.23 | raster | did u turn off the animations? |
| 05:21.30 | raster | u arent really comparing apples and apples |
| 05:21.35 | ndnihil | yep, that's the first thing I do after flashing |
| 05:21.40 | raster | lxde doesnty do any animation at all |
| 05:22.08 | ndnihil | which engine do you recommend for the gta02? |
| 05:22.32 | raster | yes - the launcher is going to scroll slowly in illume - known. but the drawing mechanisms are entirely different |
| 05:22.34 | raster | anyway. |
| 05:22.38 | ndnihil | sometimes it seems like software is best, and sometimes software_16 |
| 05:22.49 | raster | i personally just avoid my gta02's |
| 05:23.06 | raster | software_16 will be fastest - but it will have lower quality and some things will crash as its an incomplete engine |
| 05:23.11 | raster | its written for a subset of rendering |
| 05:23.15 | raster | so - it depends |
| 05:23.34 | raster | software-x11 (default) implements everything and some optimisation stuff no other engines do |
| 05:23.43 | raster | but its 32bpp internally so it'll be slower. |
| 05:23.44 | ndnihil | what about xrender? |
| 05:24.06 | raster | it'd be quite decent if u were on qvga - which is what glamo and the cpu were really built for |
| 05:24.28 | raster | xrender is entirely dependant on x's accel of xrender. glamo can only partly accelerate xrender, and no one has implemented any accel for it as best i know |
| 05:24.52 | raster | my guess is - if it was accelerated, it'd more or less work the same speed as the software-16 engine |
| 05:25.02 | raster | (it'd win on some things, lose on others) |
| 05:25.10 | raster | but there's some nasty complexity to doing it |
| 05:25.24 | raster | (thanks to glamo's architecture and limitations) |
| 05:25.42 | raster | and that's all moot until someone bothers to write the acceleration primitives for x |
| 05:25.53 | ndnihil | unfortunately we're pretty much stuck with glamo, so I'm pretty interested in using it as efficiently as possible |
| 05:26.07 | raster | to do that u'll need the glamo docs. and.. the docs are not public (nda) last i checked. |
| 05:26.16 | ndnihil | figures |
| 05:26.29 | raster | this is why i'm not holding up much hope for gta02 |
| 05:26.41 | raster | if u dropped down to qvga - u'll have a very much mroe usable phone |
| 05:26.54 | ndnihil | it would be fine if it were treated as a phone instead of a laptop |
| 05:27.08 | raster | seriously - i know everyone moans and bitches, but the cpu is from the days when qvga was king of displays |
| 05:27.21 | raster | anything higher was a theoretical concept and not actually usedf |
| 05:27.27 | *** join/#openmoko sleipnir (n=Sleipnir@p4FDD5B5D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 05:27.29 | ndnihil | and it's not like there are many other phones out there (readily) capable of running a full-on linux dist |
| 05:27.42 | raster | same with glamo - if u read its tech docs it becomes apparent it was designed for qvga - but.. can do up to vga at a stretch |
| 05:28.29 | raster | so my suggestion is - config x to go @ qvga and try that for a while. problem is peolpe will build apps that simpy dont work in qvga (if u ask me thats just bad effort on the app department) |
| 05:28.43 | raster | if u want to do higher res's - u'll be wanting much mroe modern hw |
| 05:28.47 | ndnihil | half of these apps were written for the desktop |
| 05:29.01 | raster | the iphone 3gs uses a cortex-a8 on 1/2 the pixels of the gta02 |
| 05:29.21 | raster | and the cortex a8 will give u about 6-7x the performance of the 2442 in the gta02 |
| 05:29.59 | *** join/#openmoko fobos (n=fobos@78.90.88.244) |
| 05:30.07 | raster | every pixel to draw is a drain on the memory bus and cpu (and gfx unit if accelerated) the fewer u draw, the better things perform. :) |
| 05:30.18 | ndnihil | yeah |
| 05:30.35 | ndnihil | so when does your super phone come out again? |
| 05:30.45 | raster | it doesnt - no money to make it :( |
| 05:31.02 | raster | i got as far as high level design and then am in need of serious money to get it rolling. |
| 05:31.07 | ndnihil | do them as kits |
| 05:31.22 | raster | even as kits - u just cant get the parts |
| 05:31.28 | raster | unless you order 50,000 units+ |
| 05:31.33 | ndnihil | oof |
| 05:32.05 | raster | and unless you are waving big fat cheques or have a name eg nokia, motorola, samsung, lg, apple etc.) they wont take u seriously enough to sell u the components |
| 05:32.12 | raster | the actual assembly is not that hard |
| 05:32.30 | raster | also u need a case - to make that is either like $50-$100 per case |
| 05:32.43 | raster | or u n4eed like $250,000 up front for molds and setup etc. etc. |
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| 05:32.49 | raster | thats the kind of money u are talking |
| 05:32.53 | raster | just for some elements of it |
| 05:32.56 | ndnihil | I do have a buddy in the UK who was able to get me access to otherwise unattainable (by the little guy) bits and pieces |
| 05:33.19 | ndnihil | lucky bastard just got himself an F430 |
| 05:33.24 | raster | i'm currently focusing on alternative platforms/sources of hardware that can/willrun a proper full linux system... out of the box - from the manufacturer |
| 05:33.40 | raster | ooh well - he seems to have good access! |
| 05:33.41 | raster | :) |
| 05:33.50 | raster | better than i have :( |
| 05:33.55 | ndnihil | he designs for some big company |
| 05:34.00 | raster | anyway - working on an alternate strategy |
| 05:34.28 | raster | getting a "big bompany" to see the benefits of not doing android, or winmo, etc., etc. |
| 05:34.41 | raster | of doing an open "full linux os" with x11 etc. so its easy to dev for, port to etc. etc. |
| 05:34.47 | raster | and produce real, good, modern hw |
| 05:34.58 | raster | it's a start |
| 05:35.16 | raster | but if u ask me, the most realistic option. :) |
| 05:35.50 | ndnihil | hell I'd be fine with picking up an iphone if I could flash linux to it |
| 05:36.01 | raster | well people have been working on that |
| 05:36.13 | raster | but u will not get any help from apple |
| 05:36.27 | ndnihil | they've been working on it since it was first released, but nothing has happened as far as I know |
| 05:36.30 | raster | i'd rather where the maker of the device is actually supportive and helps the community out |
| 05:36.41 | ndnihil | good luck with that |
| 05:36.43 | raster | currently one of your best bets is the palm pre i think |
| 05:36.59 | ndnihil | nokia has done some linuxy things |
| 05:37.09 | raster | well, i actually am most of the way there in getting someone big onto the open linux bandwagon |
| 05:37.28 | ndnihil | if there's anything I can do to help that along, say the word |
| 05:37.51 | raster | there's been internal linux stuff for a long time - i've been pushing it to be open, standard and hackable. |
| 05:38.00 | ndnihil | after having the gta02 for a while, I never knew how much I needed a tiny little machine I could develop on |
| 05:39.00 | raster | well here's a q - i've bandeid it about with positive feedback internally so far. if they did a pilot program - like took an existing model and released a linux version "for developers" with just enough hw to plug in via usb, reflash, and the src and binaries an dimages needed to have linux working on it (and ship it with linux already there, booting and working) |
| 05:39.13 | ndnihil | I can watch my home security cameras, control the x10 home automation stuff, control the workstation "media center" style |
| 05:39.19 | raster | even if it was "full price" (eg your $400-$800 range) |
| 05:39.46 | ndnihil | I'd buy one |
| 05:39.54 | ndnihil | just to show support if nothing else |
| 05:40.05 | raster | would you and other linux devs be willing to buy and use/hack and work with them to improive their base image and workflow so when final "mass devices" appear it'd be seamless - it'd be what you - developers want, and consumer-ready? |
| 05:40.06 | ndnihil | assuming it had reasonable specs |
| 05:40.21 | ndnihil | I'd totally be down for that |
| 05:40.28 | raster | suffice to say - it's specs would be high. |
| 05:40.50 | ndnihil | mobile devices are "the way of the future" |
| 05:40.58 | raster | at least iphone 3g level with internals - if not 3gs, with higher-res screen. |
| 05:41.17 | ndnihil | linux needs a foot in the door if it's going to be the same lovable platform we all enjoy on our workstations and laptops |
| 05:41.30 | raster | agreed |
| 05:41.32 | raster | 100% |
| 05:41.41 | raster | thats why i thought openmoko was on a winner |
| 05:41.45 | raster | it was exactly the right thing |
| 05:41.48 | raster | a real linux phone |
| 05:41.50 | ndnihil | yep |
| 05:42.02 | raster | not a linue kernel + custom userspace, custom fb-based windowing system/single app only |
| 05:42.09 | raster | and closed everything except a jvm - maybe |
| 05:42.16 | ndnihil | even still I quite like the phone |
| 05:42.21 | raster | a real linux system - miniaturised (daemons, libns and tools removed) |
| 05:42.24 | ndnihil | but I do sorely wish it had better performance |
| 05:42.24 | drascus321 | does anyone use the dates program with pisi? |
| 05:42.40 | raster | but otherwise recognisable as linux and easy to dev for |
| 05:42.45 | raster | drascus321: nup |
| 05:43.00 | raster | if u have that - but also good hardware |
| 05:43.07 | raster | ... you've got options. |
| 05:43.19 | drascus321 | nup ? |
| 05:43.22 | raster | i think the hw will be top-notch, so don't worry about that. |
| 05:43.23 | ndnihil | put me on the list for that dev phone |
| 05:43.25 | raster | drascus321: nup. |
| 05:43.30 | raster | ok. cool |
| 05:43.36 | drascus321 | what does that mean? |
| 05:43.44 | raster | i'v e told them that if they did that - it'd be a cheap way to evaluate developer interest |
| 05:43.58 | raster | drascus321: nup. nope. nah... no! |
| 05:43.59 | raster | :) |
| 05:44.04 | drascus321 | umm ok |
| 05:44.06 | ndnihil | high price will probably scare a lot of people away |
| 05:44.06 | drascus321 | lol |
| 05:44.11 | raster | never heard someone say "nup!" |
| 05:44.12 | raster | ? |
| 05:44.19 | drascus321 | nup |
| 05:44.21 | ndnihil | but it'd still be worth it for many I'm sure |
| 05:44.33 | raster | ndnihil: dont know the price. all i know is that it'd be a full sale - no telco subsidy like iphone and g1 |
| 05:44.55 | ndnihil | yeah, I wouldn't expect it to be consumer-level cheap |
| 05:45.01 | raster | but it wouldnt be intended to make "killer profit" really to just cover the costs of the pilot program |
| 05:45.10 | ndnihil | heck, I paid full price for the gta02 |
| 05:45.14 | raster | so u wouldnt get usual warranty/support |
| 05:45.20 | ndnihil | two days before they dropped the price |
| 05:45.29 | raster | u'd get "hardware screwed only" warranty and otherwise be on your own |
| 05:45.36 | ndnihil | hah, warranty and support are for suckers anyway |
| 05:45.47 | raster | :) |
| 05:46.02 | raster | there is one catch atm - right now it looks like there will be binary blobs |
| 05:46.10 | ndnihil | even on consumer level stuff, all I expect out of a warranty is that it's free from manufacturing defects and functions as described |
| 05:46.28 | raster | telephony stack is closed and is troublesome to open (nda's with chipset suppliers) |
| 05:46.37 | raster | 3d likely would be binary driver only (ala nvidia) |
| 05:46.57 | ndnihil | I don't have as much of a problem with blobs as many do |
| 05:47.04 | ndnihil | I used the nvidia drivers |
| 05:47.07 | raster | also manufacturer provided apps (contacts, dialler, etc.) wouldnt be open |
| 05:47.14 | ndnihil | they work well, and I have no intention of modifying it |
| 05:47.31 | raster | but there's possibilities to provide replacements |
| 05:47.38 | ndnihil | cool |
| 05:47.48 | raster | of your own - for all but telephony daemon and 3d drivers |
| 05:48.03 | raster | so its not totally "open" - but its a step |
| 05:48.08 | ndnihil | so will the telephony drivers speak dbus, we just read from that? |
| 05:48.15 | raster | right now - no. |
| 05:48.29 | raster | thats a point of contention atm |
| 05:48.30 | ndnihil | (I'm not a huge fan of dbus, but am getting fairly familiar with it) |
| 05:48.59 | raster | but i think there is will to be "more open" about it |
| 05:49.17 | raster | i think there is "dislike for dbus" atm |
| 05:49.39 | ndnihil | yeah, it's kinda bloated and obnoxious |
| 05:49.43 | ndnihil | I can see the point behind it |
| 05:49.52 | ndnihil | but eh |
| 05:49.53 | raster | thus there is a different comms system in place |
| 05:50.06 | raster | as for openging that up for others to use - i suspect that might be a "yes" there |
| 05:50.15 | raster | anyway - am working on it |
| 05:50.25 | ndnihil | cool, sign me up |
| 05:50.27 | raster | right now rootfs is splut - 2 ubifs partitions and 2 cramfs |
| 05:50.40 | raster | one ubifs is mounted ro (can be remounted rw) |
| 05:50.49 | raster | but the problem is the complexity of cramfs+ubifsx2 |
| 05:50.52 | ndnihil | with any luck, this mystery device is physically smaller than the gta02? |
| 05:51.00 | raster | where u can modiufy some bits, not others (without reflash) |
| 05:51.03 | raster | hmm |
| 05:51.25 | raster | put it this way - it's made by someone who makes 10's of millions phones a year |
| 05:51.31 | raster | they know how to make phones |
| 05:51.31 | raster | :) |
| 05:51.37 | ndnihil | so it'll fit in a wristwatch |
| 05:51.59 | raster | its more a question of "which one of the existing hw platforms they have will be chosen to pop out the door as the open linux one" :) |
| 05:52.15 | raster | and there';s no lack of choice there |
| 05:52.40 | ndnihil | you should consider the popularity that the gta's have gained as a benchmark of interest levels |
| 05:52.49 | raster | (right now i'd like to get the fastest/slickest one out... and that has thumbs up from the reas of the guys working on it) |
| 05:53.06 | ndnihil | I doubt any of us bought it thinking it was a consumer-ready phone |
| 05:54.17 | raster | well i know how many were sold there |
| 05:54.20 | ndnihil | even if it ships minimally functional for phone/sms duties, it'll probably sell like hotcakes |
| 05:54.27 | raster | i suspect if its froma name-brand maker.. it could sell many more |
| 05:54.52 | raster | at least the hw wouldnt have... bugs |
| 05:54.57 | ndnihil | heheh |
| 05:55.17 | raster | and it'd be modern (ie modern up-to-date cpu, etc. etc.) 3g, and so on |
| 05:55.58 | ndnihil | I would love a touchscreen slider with physical keyboard |
| 05:56.09 | raster | hmmm |
| 05:56.19 | raster | sliders are going out of fashion - more expensive to make |
| 05:56.24 | ndnihil | I usually go for flips |
| 05:56.29 | raster | qwerty or keypad behind slider? |
| 05:56.36 | ndnihil | qwerty |
| 05:56.45 | raster | hmmm |
| 05:56.47 | ndnihil | eliminate software keyboard |
| 05:56.52 | raster | that generally doesnt go together with small |
| 05:56.53 | raster | :) |
| 05:56.54 | ndnihil | preserve screen real-estate |
| 05:57.02 | ndnihil | we can dream cant we? :) |
| 05:57.08 | raster | heheher |
| 05:57.10 | ndnihil | laser projection keyboard |
| 05:57.54 | ndnihil | I'm just not a fan of on-screen software keyboards |
| 05:58.06 | ndnihil | particularly on devices with small screens |
| 05:58.44 | ndnihil | it's not as bad on 17" tablets, but on a phone it chews up screen that could otherwise be used for displaying porn |
| 05:59.06 | raster | http://au.lge.com/products/model/detail/mobilephone_touchphone__arena(km900).jhtml |
| 05:59.12 | raster | http://www.techradar.com/reviews/phones/mobile-phones/samsung-jet-611815/review |
| 05:59.43 | sleipnir | raster: put me on the potentially-want-buy list for that phone, i'll buy that LG phone *g* |
| 06:00.31 | ndnihil | that samsung case looks pretty slick |
| 06:00.31 | raster | http://www.htc.com/www/product/touchdiamond2/overview.html |
| 06:00.31 | ndnihil | and external volume buttons are a -must- |
| 06:00.38 | raster | http://www.htc.com/www/product/touchhd/overview.html |
| 06:01.01 | raster | an example of the style of phones i'm seeing bandied about as contenders |
| 06:01.02 | raster | :) |
| 06:01.17 | sleipnir | raster: as far as the phone has GPS, WLAN and an USB host I'm in |
| 06:02.07 | raster | in this day and age expect at a minimum gps, 3g, wlan, usb connector (software controlled ie usb gadget). |
| 06:02.18 | raster | with a cpu minimum the same the iphone 3g has |
| 06:02.28 | raster | if not 3gs / palm pre level |
| 06:02.39 | sleipnir | raster: do you have any experience with the palm pre yet? it seems a pretty nice phone and quite open |
| 06:02.58 | raster | no - no gsm version. cdma only |
| 06:03.30 | sleipnir | raster: true |
| 06:04.57 | raster | waiting on that. |
| 06:05.20 | raster | buty palm arent going to lend a hand in people removing their ui and core system and fixing it to be more open/standard |
| 06:05.26 | sleipnir | raster: any reports from other folks on how hackable that thing is? |
| 06:05.41 | sleipnir | ahh ok |
| 06:05.50 | raster | yes |
| 06:06.00 | raster | its actually a standard OE based system |
| 06:06.08 | raster | you can guess the rest from there |
| 06:06.13 | raster | they did their own ui layer |
| 06:06.19 | raster | with their own display system engine |
| 06:06.38 | sleipnir | raster: yeah, i was more asking in the direction, kernel drivers, xorg driver, docu etc |
| 06:06.46 | raster | no x |
| 06:06.49 | raster | they did their own |
| 06:07.04 | raster | based on shared memory blobs of pixel data for the "cards" (windows) |
| 06:07.12 | sleipnir | raster: it shouldn't be hard to port stuff if these are open / documentation avail |
| 06:07.36 | raster | not documented |
| 06:07.43 | raster | some src from webkit hacks |
| 06:07.46 | raster | so people have figured it out |
| 06:07.51 | raster | not all of it |
| 06:08.01 | raster | personbalyl not 100% interested in figureing it out |
| 06:08.03 | sleipnir | raster: hmmm, so you think it's hard to have hw-accelerated X on it? |
| 06:08.10 | raster | i'd rather have x on it and ignore palm's stuff |
| 06:08.32 | raster | if anythgin let ppl work in revers and get the palm webos webkit+cartds mapped to x and windows |
| 06:08.47 | raster | but it doesnt grab my interest as cant get a gsm pre atm |
| 06:08.56 | raster | and as i said.. been working on other options |
| 06:08.56 | raster | :) |
| 06:09.09 | raster | but x shoudl work |
| 06:09.24 | raster | not with accel - its an omap3 - accel will mean using the closed sgx (imagination) unit |
| 06:09.27 | sleipnir | raster: hehe, so please drop me a note as soon as "your option" is avail ;-) |
| 06:09.35 | raster | its been partly reversed, but u dont need accel as the cpu is really powerful |
| 06:10.19 | raster | i'll hope that an open(ish) option will exist in time - soon i hope |
| 06:10.34 | raster | (soon being months as opposed to years) |
| 06:11.26 | raster | but if i can do something to bring the realisty of a REAL linux platyform to mobiles anjd have it open enough so you can pretty much replace any bit you like with whatever you like.. i'll have considered my job done |
| 06:11.26 | raster | :) |
| 06:11.38 | sleipnir | raster: perfect, as i will hopefully have some sparetime in some month :-) |
| 06:12.22 | raster | chances are u wont get 100% open from the start - but somnething 80% or 90% open with thigns like telephony dameon closed or default out-of-the-box apps closed (contacts, dialler, launcher etc.), 3d (gles) closed etc. |
| 06:12.33 | raster | but at least enough of it open to start something useful |
| 06:13.18 | sleipnir | raster: yeah, i think this will be enough for a start, because this still leaves enough pieces to pick up and to fix |
| 06:13.29 | raster | yup |
| 06:13.42 | ndnihil | that'd be fine by me. function first, form second, morals third |
| 06:14.12 | raster | as i said - some bits are just troublesome to open up for various reasons. your choice is "as open as sanely possible" vs no open product at all of any percentage |
| 06:14.22 | raster | i hope bits get more open over time |
| 06:14.49 | *** part/#openmoko drascus321 (n=drascus@c-76-119-30-199.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 06:14.59 | ndnihil | for many years before getting the gta02, I spent countless hours pounding at 100% closed devices |
| 06:15.06 | sleipnir | raster: yeah the problem is always, if it works "somewhat closed", why should the vendor open up more? |
| 06:15.07 | ndnihil | (ask me how much I hate p2k) |
| 06:15.30 | sleipnir | but i agree, it's important to put a foot into the door |
| 06:15.50 | ndnihil | dual NAM/dual-sim would be the icing on the cake |
| 06:15.57 | raster | ndnihil: for the same reaons they opened up some of it |
| 06:16.06 | raster | expand market - open up possibilities that were not ther ebefore |
| 06:16.13 | raster | expand market share, size and possibilities |
| 06:16.55 | raster | for exmaple. the baseband (gsm/2g/3g/hspa etc.) is not theirs |
| 06:17.16 | raster | in order to write anything that drives the actual telephony - they need to sign hefty nda's with the supplier of those chips. |
| 06:17.48 | raster | those nda's preclude making public any information from those docs - and that emans the code for the telephony daemon - which is written using those docs, to drive the baseband and make the phone... make calls |
| 06:17.53 | raster | kind of important |
| 06:17.54 | raster | :0 |
| 06:17.55 | raster | :) |
| 06:18.47 | raster | so its either "device with no working phone at all - and u have an open telephony stack.. ie none, or you get a closed telephony stack and.. have it work." |
| 06:19.01 | raster | u can avoid the telephony and just do everything over wifi :) |
| 06:20.01 | sleipnir | raster: that's true, but call me pessimistic, i don't see they feel the urge to ever open up that telephony stack... |
| 06:20.20 | raster | unfortunately thats out of their hands |
| 06:20.29 | raster | they can ask nicely, plead and beg, but the decision is not theirs. |
| 06:20.51 | raster | but if open proves to be a good strategy and sells units - thats actual $ proving that open means good business |
| 06:21.03 | raster | right now most companies are still wary of it |
| 06:21.15 | raster | they only recently got their heads around linux being usable at all in products |
| 06:21.45 | raster | but making your platform ostensibly open (as opposed to just using open thgns like linux and shipping only the src u absolutely must to obey the gpl) is another matter |
| 06:22.15 | sleipnir | the hope is that opening up becomes stylish and that the chipset vendor is 'forced' to open up on the market... hope dies last *g* |
| 06:22.23 | raster | bingo |
| 06:22.30 | raster | so start by putting $ behind the concept of open |
| 06:22.36 | raster | $ make is stylish |
| 06:22.48 | raster | then pressure will be put on the suppliers to be more open |
| 06:23.12 | sleipnir | raster: good luck and drop me a note if you succeed / have something to buy |
| 06:23.17 | raster | :) |
| 06:23.19 | raster | will do |
| 06:23.22 | sleipnir | cool |
| 06:23.59 | sleipnir | till then i will play around with my gta02 which i hard-tested 4 weeks as a GPS tracker |
| 06:24.14 | sleipnir | i have to say except for the battery lifetime it is really nice |
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| 06:27.00 | raster | hmm a bit fat for my tasts |
| 06:27.05 | raster | scree inded is a bad design issue |
| 06:27.07 | raster | indent |
| 06:27.19 | raster | rounded ends waste oodles of space |
| 06:27.25 | raster | slow |
| 06:27.26 | raster | :) |
| 06:27.51 | ndnihil | it's more usable than my brokeberry8800 |
| 06:28.10 | sleipnir | raster: slow? hmmm i mean it could be faster, but for me it is "fast enough" :-) |
| 06:29.05 | sleipnir | raster: the only thing is really after about 6h of tracking the battery is flat (and i mean completely empty which is sh*t) |
| 06:29.35 | raster | its stinkingly slow |
| 06:29.46 | raster | i have a wealth of comparisons on my desk here :) |
| 06:30.09 | sleipnir | raster: while we are on it. one day illume told me that it couldn't spawn a new process... i had to reboot by removing the battery |
| 06:30.15 | *** join/#openmoko kvaster (n=kvaster@93.84.112.80) |
| 06:30.30 | sleipnir | raster: hehe no comparison, no complain *g* |
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| 06:59.52 | PaulFertser | Oh, just as i was going to ask raster about some more details... |
| 07:00.13 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: great news he came with indeed |
| 07:00.59 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: did i understand it right that it will be relatively hard to get free telephony going on that device? |
| 07:01.07 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: did he say something about kernel interfaces? |
| 07:01.50 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: and does that company have an intention to help "free" at least some of the datasheets needed for low-level stuff? |
| 07:02.28 | ndnihil | well, nothing is set in stone from what I understand |
| 07:02.39 | ndnihil | so right now it's just a possibility |
| 07:02.54 | ndnihil | but what he described was an open'ish phone |
| 07:03.12 | ndnihil | full on linux like we get on the gta02, with binary blobs for things like video, telephony, etc... |
| 07:03.22 | *** join/#openmoko dwb (n=david@a177027.upc-a.chello.nl) |
| 07:03.40 | ndnihil | so not 100% open source |
| 07:03.46 | ndnihil | but open enough for a start |
| 07:04.27 | ndnihil | I'd make the compromise using binary blobs in exchange for a highly spec'd mobile device |
| 07:04.32 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: well, devil is in the detail as always |
| 07:04.41 | ndnihil | yeah |
| 07:04.59 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: if the telephony will be very hard to get right, it would probably suck very much. |
| 07:05.16 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: also i imagine problems with running debian due to packaging issues etc. |
| 07:05.34 | ndnihil | I think interfacing with their telephony stuff would probably be documented |
| 07:05.49 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: and if they use kernel blobs that would make things even worse. Probably never pushing upstream anything etc. |
| 07:06.12 | ndnihil | true |
| 07:06.31 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: i can't see any reasons for closing telephony stuff. AFAIK everything "interesting" runs on the separate baseband processor anyway. |
| 07:06.45 | PaulFertser | So that seems to be pointless. |
| 07:06.53 | ndnihil | as raster described, the telephony bits were coded under NDA |
| 07:07.28 | PaulFertser | I read that. I still can't see any decent reason for that. |
| 07:07.34 | ndnihil | the docs/specs for the chip are closed |
| 07:07.50 | lindi- | ndnihil: who coded it? |
| 07:07.52 | ndnihil | meaning anything written using that information will be closed too |
| 07:08.10 | ndnihil | lindi-: dunno, you'd have to ask raster. he didn't mention a specific manufacturer |
| 07:08.17 | PaulFertser | lindi-: company coders. Have you read the backlog where raster told us some interesting stuff? |
| 07:08.59 | lindi- | nope |
| 07:09.04 | ndnihil | you should |
| 07:09.11 | ndnihil | there is potential on the horizon |
| 07:09.12 | lindi- | too busy to read irc :) |
| 07:09.13 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: you know we don't have access to at command specs for calypso, right? Do you think it would change anything if they released those? Either for them or for us? |
| 07:09.19 | *** join/#openmoko manitu (n=werner@p578b0cfb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 07:09.33 | ndnihil | PaulFertser: of course I don't, but they do, and that's what matters :) |
| 07:09.56 | PaulFertser | lindi-: raster is in the process of convincing some big player to release a dev phone in a "sane" way. |
| 07:09.56 | ndnihil | convincing geeks that open is good is easy, convincing non-technically inclined robots in suits of the same is quite difficult |
| 07:10.02 | PaulFertser | lindi-: iphone 3G-like specs. |
| 07:10.55 | Wonka | .oO( is "too busy to read irc" a special case of "TL,DR"? ) |
| 07:11.32 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: no, my point was that hiding those specs was plain stupid, the only really important thing was AT%Nxxx |
| 07:11.52 | ndnihil | I agree, hiding them is stupid |
| 07:12.26 | ndnihil | I had to get a friend "in the industry" to get me a simple AT command set doc for a bluetooth chip |
| 07:12.38 | ndnihil | obnoxious process |
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| 07:14.20 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: and btw proprietary drivers are in fact evil. You say you don't mind nvidia crap on your machines? Hm. But it's really crap, they work only with old kernels, sometimes they don't fix obvious bugs for ages, do not work on powerpc etc... |
| 07:14.55 | lindi- | i don't like this calypso stuff on my gta02 either :( |
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| 07:15.10 | ndnihil | they're entirely evil, but getting companies to even write binary blob drivers is a step in the right direction |
| 07:15.31 | ndnihil | it's far better than having them ignore the Linux community entirely |
| 07:16.10 | ndnihil | ideally it would all be open |
| 07:16.16 | ndnihil | but people in suits don't have those ideals |
| 07:16.30 | ndnihil | and they're the ones that make those decisions unfortunately |
| 07:18.56 | *** join/#openmoko raster (n=raster@enlightenment/developer/raster) |
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| 07:22.05 | PaulFertser | raster: i hope you're open for some more questions ;) Hi and thanks for the great news btw! :D |
| 07:22.38 | PaulFertser | raster: first, what about the kernel and other low-level stuff? Do they plan to have proprietary parts there? Do they have much custom code not in mainline etc? |
| 07:23.50 | ndnihil | welcome back raster, it seems you've caused a bit of a stir :) |
| 07:26.25 | raster | PaulFertser: monolithic kernel so it'd be gpl if its in kernel (like it or not) |
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| 07:27.06 | PaulFertser | raster: well, i've seen quite some devices (routers/adsl modems) which had proprietary kernel modules. |
| 07:27.25 | raster | ninlith: uh oh |
| 07:27.26 | raster | :) |
| 07:27.32 | raster | err ndnihil uh oh :) |
| 07:27.33 | raster | oops |
| 07:27.37 | raster | ninlith: sorry mis-tab |
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| 07:27.55 | PaulFertser | raster: also htc dream has some kernel code that is actually understandable and useable. But they could do much more in proprietary userspace and/or obfuscate the kernel code. |
| 07:28.51 | PaulFertser | raster: another important question for my biased low-level pov is whether they'll try to open at least some of the datasheets needed to hack on the low-level. And what about jtag or at least serial console access? |
| 07:29.28 | *** join/#openmoko jonkristian (n=jonkrist@194.19.111.162) |
| 07:31.30 | raster | jtag - unlikely. not necessary. serial port is a breakout from the usb connector with a breakout box (much like the debug board for gta02) |
| 07:31.39 | raster | but much simpler |
| 07:31.40 | raster | :) |
| 07:32.08 | ndnihil | using a known bootloader? |
| 07:32.15 | raster | uboot |
| 07:32.26 | PaulFertser | raster: what is the problem with jtag? |
| 07:32.39 | raster | unnecessary |
| 07:32.59 | PaulFertser | Hm, kernel devs usually think otherwise... |
| 07:33.28 | raster | and to be honest - there will be access to it somewhere - but i dont think there is any interest in opening it or making it accessible as its simply not needed. |
| 07:33.35 | raster | u have uboot |
| 07:33.39 | raster | and serial console |
| 07:33.52 | raster | kernel devs have lived with less for a long time |
| 07:34.00 | raster | (desktops) |
| 07:34.46 | raster | jtag is not a necessity - its a bit of a luxury :) |
| 07:35.08 | PaulFertser | raster: it just drives me mad when you can actually have access to some nice thing but it's hidden for no good reason. |
| 07:37.08 | raster | i also fail to see why u need it. its not necessary. it's a nice extra. and i know i'm already pushing shit uphill, so i'm not going to push my luck. things that arent necessary arent a priority for me to push to be open. and to be honest, i've never had to touch jtag myself so far except once on a gta02 long before gta02's even had a stable working board (gta02a2 - not even a5/6) |
| 07:37.49 | ndnihil | I dont use JTAG on anything I didn't make |
| 07:38.01 | raster | also how many people have jtag equipment to make use of it - a very very very very small % of developers will have it. you need to take small steps - not giant leaps into openness |
| 07:38.09 | ndnihil | not for any particular reason, just never needed to |
| 07:38.44 | raster | ndnihil: generally by the time you get your hands on it the usefulness of jtag has passed into obscurity as there is a working bootloader with IO (serial, dfu, etc. etc.) and a working kernel and userspace |
| 07:38.48 | PaulFertser | raster: what about brickability of the device? We have NOR on gta02 for a reason. |
| 07:39.07 | raster | jtag is a PITA way of getting thigns to/from the device at that point when u have much more mature mechanisms :) |
| 07:39.26 | ndnihil | agreed |
| 07:39.44 | raster | PaulFertser: no nor. fuck with flash at the bootloader level and be prepared for bricking. |
| 07:39.50 | ndnihil | I'd sooner deal with uboot or qi or equivalent than drag out the JTAG hardware and set things up |
| 07:40.02 | PaulFertser | raster: aha, and then you'll have no jtag to flash it back. nice. |
| 07:40.09 | raster | ie - dont touch the bootloader. let it be. assume ist like the bios on your pc. you dont screw with it. :) |
| 07:40.22 | ndnihil | screws with his bios |
| 07:40.23 | raster | ndnihil: indeed. |
| 07:40.49 | ndnihil | not regularly mind you, but whenever I get a new machine the first thing I do is tweak the bios |
| 07:40.53 | raster | ndnihil: but you accept the possibility thatr.. if u screw with it thew wrong way, u'll have a motherboard brick... :) |
| 07:41.22 | raster | but its one thing to change settings, another to reflash the bios entirely |
| 07:41.30 | ndnihil | true |
| 07:41.44 | PaulFertser | raster: well, for me the fact that jtag is "unlikely" mostly means that hardware itself will be essentially as closed as any other proprietary device :( |
| 07:41.48 | ndnihil | I only upgrade bios if it's absolutely necessary |
| 07:42.10 | ndnihil | paul: does your workstation/laptop have JTAG? |
| 07:42.33 | raster | PaulFertser: pretty much. you wont be gettign schematics etc. you'll be getting something open enough to replace kernel or patch and rebuild it and userspace wil lbe recognisable normal linux (not android) |
| 07:42.36 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: well, quite possibly so. |
| 07:42.40 | raster | but u'll have binary blobs there too |
| 07:42.43 | lindi- | we should get rid of proprietary bioses on PCs too |
| 07:42.47 | raster | telephony, 3d most likely |
| 07:43.00 | ndnihil | lindi-: there's an open bios |
| 07:43.12 | ndnihil | never used it myself, but it looks neat to play with |
| 07:43.15 | raster | so i'm unsure if jtag matters at all if u still have closed gfx and telephony |
| 07:43.21 | raster | in the big scheme of things |
| 07:43.42 | PaulFertser | raster: will telephony be really hard to reverse or it's more likely just a matter of doing it so e.g. stefan will be able to support it after a weekend of hacking? |
| 07:44.07 | raster | very... unlikely |
| 07:44.08 | raster | :) |
| 07:44.13 | lindi- | ndnihil: more like free :) |
| 07:44.25 | PaulFertser | raster: unlikely to be easy to support telephony with FSO? :O |
| 07:44.35 | raster | correct |
| 07:44.38 | PaulFertser | raster: it's not the case with HTC dream afaik. |
| 07:44.42 | raster | unless u get official help |
| 07:44.49 | raster | no at commands |
| 07:44.53 | raster | :) |
| 07:44.57 | raster | more i cant tell u |
| 07:45.29 | PaulFertser | raster: i can't express how i appreciate that you already told a lot. |
| 07:45.51 | ndnihil | if the telephony stuff speaks a documented bus/protocol (ie: dbus), it shouldn't be too bad |
| 07:45.54 | raster | interesting u complain about jtag - whcih is pretty easy to figure out as once u find the jtag lines - its standard, but not so for telephony. or gfx :) |
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| 07:46.41 | PaulFertser | raster: that's why i talk about jtag. If even jtag is closed, that means a lot to me. |
| 07:47.06 | raster | chances are it wont be documented - but u'll likely fint the jtag lines somewhere and be able to use them with standard jtag equipment |
| 07:47.18 | ndnihil | I wouldn't call it "closed" if the pads/pins are avilable |
| 07:47.20 | ndnihil | available |
| 07:47.22 | PaulFertser | Sure, that's my point |
| 07:47.24 | raster | but i dont see that as something the majority of developers will need/want |
| 07:47.52 | raster | i dont think u'll get "help" ie nice little headers beautifully laid out and accessible and fully documented |
| 07:47.57 | raster | but they'll likely be somewhere |
| 07:48.16 | PaulFertser | raster: Well, looks like this device will probably open possibility for something like android market or the like but without stupd restrictions. |
| 07:48.25 | PaulFertser | raster: but not much more. |
| 07:49.06 | raster | i happen to have one here - well a device, with a nicely labelled jtag header |
| 07:49.18 | PaulFertser | raster: i'm sorry to be so sceptical, just trying to find out more ;) |
| 07:49.24 | raster | but if it stays visible and labelled and even there in production models - no idea |
| 07:50.07 | raster | i dont see this as too much less closed than gta02 |
| 07:50.18 | raster | gta02 has closed gfx |
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| 07:50.38 | raster | gsm/2g is behind an at serial line so the commandset is known |
| 07:50.39 | PaulFertser | raster: but open at command set. |
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| 07:50.46 | PaulFertser | (not officially but in fact) |
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| 07:51.00 | raster | but tthe firmware for the modem is closed - same story just missing protocol specs for baseband |
| 07:51.20 | raster | so its not drastically different |
| 07:51.40 | raster | i dont care about the open so much as the "linux" bit |
| 07:51.43 | raster | android != linux |
| 07:51.50 | PaulFertser | Obviously |
| 07:51.51 | raster | so i dont want it, care for it, etc. |
| 07:52.34 | PaulFertser | raster: ok, what makes it different from htc dream? You can run angstrom or anything on it... Lack of gfx acceleration? |
| 07:53.12 | raster | htc dream is locked down - u cant replace android |
| 07:53.18 | raster | the adp1 is not locked |
| 07:53.21 | raster | the dream is |
| 07:53.34 | raster | the newer dreams are locked down from bootloader on |
| 07:53.54 | raster | bootload cant flash an older android to make use of the root bug to get root to finally reflash it |
| 07:53.59 | Wonka | mmh... |
| 07:54.01 | PaulFertser | raster: well, the dream is not locked down anymore, is it? There's gold card generator in the wild. |
| 07:54.01 | raster | htc ACTIVELY wants to lock it down |
| 07:54.33 | Wonka | can't anyone hit HTC with a big heap of GPL violation for that? |
| 07:54.38 | raster | (you can cheat by generating a goldcard that pretends its a mainenance card that will do it - but its hacking around the encryption key checking) |
| 07:55.14 | raster | PaulFertser: as i mentioned - goldcard can work around it - thats how i did it, but... htc actively is stopping it. they are locking it down more and more all the time and will continue to do so |
| 07:55.17 | PaulFertser | Right. But since it's available and you can even get a subsidised phone and then unlock it, what makes "your" offer more appealing? |
| 07:55.36 | raster | the maker wont actively stop u |
| 07:55.47 | raster | it will be open to do as u please |
| 07:55.52 | PaulFertser | That's indeed an important and nice thing. |
| 07:55.58 | Wonka | and can't f***ing HSPA chipset suppliers f***ing build their chipsets with GSM07.10 interface and just publish the AT command set? |
| 07:56.00 | raster | there wont be a bootloader only flashing signed images etc. etc. |
| 07:56.25 | raster | Wonka: unfortunately not. its the bootloader enforcing it - and thats out of the hands of gpkl |
| 07:57.13 | raster | Wonka: it makes sense to avoid doing it. that measn everything you do ont he wire needs conversion TO gsm07.10 over a serial link |
| 07:57.13 | Wonka | raster: but don't they have to provide tools to make own binaries that run? and if the bootloader doesn't run it, it doesn't "run" in that sense? |
| 07:57.43 | raster | thats fine if all u do is the occasional call etc. but once u have data-centric devices bringing data sessiosn up and down a lot and pushing lots of data over the connection - you look for more efficient ways |
| 07:57.44 | ndnihil | yeah, toolchain availability is a pretty big issue |
| 07:57.46 | PaulFertser | raster: what about the other devices by the same manufacturer? Will he continue to actively oppose reversing attempts? |
| 07:58.08 | raster | eg like simply dumping binrary protocol packets into a shared memory buffer that both sides read/write |
| 07:58.13 | ndnihil | does gcc already do whatever architecture this mystery phone uses? |
| 07:58.25 | raster | it makes technical sense in the world of trying to converve power |
| 07:58.32 | Wonka | raster: mh, more than one real TTY, and PPP directly on one of them? |
| 07:58.53 | PaulFertser | Wonka: interfacing 3G modem is a very interesting topic ;) |
| 07:59.15 | raster | as for gpl - no. gpl does not require anything beyond you making the source available (on request) of the gpl software that was the basis for building your product |
| 07:59.15 | Wonka | _some_ sort of standardized interface at least |
| 07:59.22 | raster | (and derivative code too) |
| 07:59.32 | PaulFertser | Wonka: probably one of the good approaches is to implement a USB cdc_ether interface. But you'll have other problems with that. |
| 07:59.34 | raster | toolchain has nothing to do with it |
| 07:59.44 | raster | and bootloader is orthogonal to even that |
| 08:00.27 | raster | PaulFertser: depends. other products if they run somkething else (android, winmo, symbian, whatever) are "other products". they are orthogonal to the issue :) |
| 08:00.40 | Wonka | hm. i'd need to read GPL2 again, but I seem to remember there was a requirement to provide as much stuff as is needed to generate working binaries from the sources |
| 08:01.11 | raster | PaulFertser: that'd be a great way to do it (cdc_ether) |
| 08:01.22 | PaulFertser | raster: it's about attitude. Either you want to fuck up devs (like apple does with iphones) or not (like Palm did with their treo). |
| 08:01.32 | raster | and have the modem firmware pretend to be a usb ethernet device - fake dhcp daemon etc. |
| 08:01.52 | Wonka | .oO( why IP? ) |
| 08:02.02 | raster | but - your baseband firmware complexity (and powewr/cpu requirements) get really heavy |
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| 08:02.16 | raster | i think everyone wants to remove as much complexity as they can and punt it off into the phone os |
| 08:02.32 | PaulFertser | raster: also usb will require reenumeration after you put the main cpu to suspend etc. |
| 08:02.34 | raster | they already have 2 cpu cores |
| 08:02.36 | Wonka | memory mapped "serial" |
| 08:02.40 | raster | they'd love to get rid of 1 if they can |
| 08:02.44 | PaulFertser | raster: oh btw, what about zero-clock? |
| 08:02.52 | PaulFertser | raster: or other power-saving measures? |
| 08:03.14 | raster | and u manage that by simplifying what the baseband does so it can be simpler "transistors" as oppos3ed to whole cpus + os's and firmware on them |
| 08:03.15 | raster | :") |
| 08:03.34 | raster | as for attitude - can' |
| 08:03.58 | raster | as for attitude - can't comment there. no one is currently company-and-all going into linux and open on phones |
| 08:04.13 | raster | anyone who has (openmoko) is so tiny they vanish overnight |
| 08:04.26 | PaulFertser | raster: going into open is one thing. Actively screwing independent devs is another... |
| 08:05.44 | Wonka | "we don't care about the interface, as long as it is open (enough). if you don't want a whole cpu on your side, leave it out - but design and open a good interface." |
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| 08:06.10 | raster | large companies (nokia, motorola, lg, samsung, sony ericsson, htc etc.) are large enough that you can have just a small division/group do this and that group is by far bigger, stronger and more influential than someone like openmoko (a whole company), so it's pretty moot as long as it is happening and supported. it may be a matter of hedging bets. someone isnt going to bet the entire multi-billion dollar company on an open phone. they ma |
| 08:06.11 | raster | y be willing to "try it" ans see how it goes first on a small scale. if it fails they may happily wipe their hands and go "well that sucked" and move on without major risk. |
| 08:06.16 | Wonka | (ok, to speak gsm and because of timing constraints, that seems to be hard) |
| 08:06.42 | raster | and yes - screwing devs sucks |
| 08:06.47 | raster | apple is king of that |
| 08:08.10 | raster | and anyone who comes along with something technically as good, with similar infrastructure (easy software distribution system, actually be open and allow anything), and can produce and sell in large numbers and produce good hw and software to match, is likely to do a fine job of sucking devs away from apple and producing just what we want |
| 08:08.25 | raster | you wont beat apple by playing by their rules. |
| 08:08.39 | raster | you wont beat apple if u are a tiny company with no resources |
| 08:09.34 | raster | imho your chance of getting the spotlight away from apple to you is to "be different" and imho that isnt android. android is the commodity os for those who arent into any os at all and will just write for anything that blinks an led :) |
| 08:10.04 | raster | if u want the linux developer base to get on your boat - you need to play nice to them. and you need to start somewhere. |
| 08:10.47 | PaulFertser | raster: does the kernel for that device have good chances to get upstream? |
| 08:11.20 | raster | yes |
| 08:11.49 | raster | u're going to get problems just due to "benign incompetence" |
| 08:11.56 | raster | ie not wanting to actively keep things out of upstream |
| 08:12.12 | raster | simply not knowing what to do and how to do it in the right way with minimum effort to get it there |
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| 08:12.29 | raster | ie not stupid peolpe who dont know how to code |
| 08:12.45 | raster | but more they just are not used to the way the kernel world and other oss worlds work :) |
| 08:12.55 | methril|work | morning |
| 08:12.56 | PaulFertser | raster: (probably unrelated) there were several attempts to mass-produce a semi-open GNU/Linux-based PDAs. I think zaurus was pretty popular among geeks. What's the reason now i can't see any linux-based PDA in the shop nearby? |
| 08:13.16 | raster | zaurus - qt. |
| 08:13.24 | raster | people wtarted writign apps then stopped |
| 08:13.32 | raster | they either had to pay qt for a dev kit+license |
| 08:13.34 | raster | or write gpl apps |
| 08:13.43 | PaulFertser | raster: (kernel) some corporate programmers write drivers in a way that'll never be accepted upstream so the only possibility is to rewrite them. It'll make harder getting kernel upstream. |
| 08:13.58 | raster | gpl apps didnt make money and there was no "app store" |
| 08:14.19 | PaulFertser | raster: what was the problem with running X on the devices? |
| 08:14.22 | raster | not to mention the installbase was fairly small to begin with - zaurus came out towards the middle-to-end of the pda craze |
| 08:14.39 | raster | and only 1 model (the sl5500/5600) ever made it out of japan |
| 08:14.58 | raster | zaurus continued to do relatively well in japan for a while after (and before) with lots of other zaurus models there |
| 08:15.34 | raster | and x worked on the devices |
| 08:15.39 | raster | ho the sl5500 was only 32m ram |
| 08:15.48 | raster | that was a bit of a limiting factor |
| 08:16.07 | raster | also linux was still not accepted as a "viable os" for embedded |
| 08:16.11 | raster | it was early days still |
| 08:16.13 | raster | now its accepted |
| 08:16.23 | raster | but its being twisted into the wrong way |
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| 08:23.19 | ndnihil | swiss army knife of OS's |
| 08:23.23 | *** join/#openmoko ZaPPaS (n=moritz@buero2.pi5.physik.uni-stuttgart.de) |
| 08:23.50 | ndnihil | runs on everything from top 5 superclusters down to my girlfriends tomtom |
| 08:26.34 | raster | indeed |
| 08:26.42 | raster | that makes it one interesting os |
| 08:26.57 | ndnihil | yep, and I'm lucky to make a living dicking around with it |
| 08:28.03 | ndnihil | I probably would have gone the hari-kiri route if I had to deal with windows |
| 08:28.10 | ndnihil | that shit is so frustrating |
| 08:29.15 | raster | lucky to make a living... dicking around :) |
| 08:29.33 | ndnihil | tried to copy some pictures off SD card to GF's mothers computer, instead of a quick copy/paste, it wanted to set up some kind of media center, import things, give me a recipe for cheesecake, and suck off the homeless guy downtown before it wanted to show me the friggen pictures |
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| 08:31.28 | raster | you know you wanted the cheesecake |
| 08:33.57 | madwoota | there is no cake! |
| 08:34.35 | raster | eat your cake! |
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| 08:43.36 | PaulFertser | raster: please don't understand me wrong, i think that's really good news and it's unbelievably cool to see you working on making that happen. |
| 08:44.20 | raster | it may not be everything you want |
| 08:44.28 | raster | but... got to start somewhere |
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| 09:42.46 | DocScrutinizer | raster: !! :-D |
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| 09:46.43 | DocScrutinizer | raster: how's life? |
| 09:54.56 | raster | yoyo joerg! |
| 09:55.01 | raster | wassap! |
| 09:59.59 | Wonka | http://imgur.com/X1Hi1.gif O.o |
| 10:02.35 | raster | Wonka: dont use disk dmnit! |
| 10:02.36 | raster | :) |
| 10:03.05 | Wonka | what about Flash? uSDHC class 4? |
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| 10:03.34 | raster | latency lower for sure |
| 10:03.46 | raster | thats a pc |
| 10:04.03 | raster | ram latency and cache *only 1 level depending on the SoC) will be different too |
| 10:04.18 | raster | latency and throughput are different values as well |
| 10:04.33 | raster | 13.7ms would be a random seek to anywhere |
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| 10:04.54 | raster | once u are at the data reading it sequentially would be very fast on a disk (spinning media - ie hdd) |
| 10:05.12 | raster | i should pull 40-80mb/sec no problems on modern disks |
| 10:05.40 | ndnihil | I cant wait for the price on SSD to come down |
| 10:06.19 | raster | ssd is nice |
| 10:06.28 | raster | for some things it rocks, for others, u barely notice |
| 10:06.42 | raster | it mostly depends "how much is cached in ram already?" |
| 10:06.59 | raster | eg if u have lots of ram (2gb or more) a lot of your fs wil lbe cached most of the time once its been paged in |
| 10:07.16 | raster | of course initial boot and gettign data in to start with is faster, but after than its moot |
| 10:07.49 | ndnihil | editing video and audio would notice |
| 10:07.50 | ndnihil | a lot |
| 10:08.01 | Wonka | bwahahaha, just found a bug in matchbox-keyboard-inputmethod_0.0+svnr1910-r10_armv4t.ipk... |
| 10:08.02 | raster | ndnihil: dont think so. |
| 10:08.15 | raster | as u deal with large bits of contiguous data |
| 10:08.17 | Wonka | /usr/share/applications/inputmethods/matchbox-keyboard.desktop has a typo: |
| 10:08.22 | raster | that plays out well for hdd's |
| 10:08.26 | raster | (in general) |
| 10:08.27 | Wonka | "X-MB-INPUT-MECHANSIM=True" should maybe be "MECHANISM" |
| 10:09.24 | raster | as long as the code has the same typo to look at X-* attributes of a .desktop.. it's not a bug |
| 10:09.28 | raster | its just ugly spelling |
| 10:09.29 | raster | :) |
| 10:10.48 | Wonka | mh. neither way it shows up in illume settings under "keyboard"... |
| 10:10.51 | ndnihil | I noticed a huge difference going from 7200rpm drives to 12k(or 15k maybe) in my audio machine |
| 10:10.57 | Wonka | only illume keyboard and gridpad |
| 10:11.28 | raster | ndnihil: higher spin rates will also improve xfer times accordingly i think - as well as access times |
| 10:11.30 | raster | :) |
| 10:11.44 | ndnihil | yeah, that's why I'm thinking SSD would be even better |
| 10:11.53 | raster | Wonka: it actually looks for categories for the app |
| 10:12.04 | raster | if in category Keyboard - it adds it |
| 10:12.05 | raster | :) |
| 10:12.29 | raster | ndnihil: well i havew one in my laptop - and the only really noticable things are startup times and rsync |
| 10:12.42 | raster | everything else is "moot" |
| 10:12.49 | raster | dont notice |
| 10:12.54 | Wonka | ah, thx |
| 10:13.02 | Wonka | one vi later... |
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| 10:13.17 | Wonka | SHR much more usable with my german matchbox layout |
| 10:13.22 | raster | i think cateogries are the best field for that |
| 10:13.29 | raster | it means in other de's the app can stil be listed in menus |
| 10:13.34 | raster | so u can launch/run the kbd |
| 10:13.46 | raster | but in illume it doesnt put it in the launcher - it puts it somewhere special |
| 10:13.47 | raster | :) |
| 10:15.25 | Wonka | no criticism from me |
| 10:16.12 | Wonka | now i just need to find out how to build those packages myself |
| 10:16.21 | Wonka | and then i can go make matchbox-keyboard better |
| 10:17.39 | Wonka | altgr-shift seems not to work - but no wonder |
| 10:17.51 | Wonka | that "XML" used for defining layouts is... borked |
| 10:18.19 | Wonka | <key></key> with <default/> <mod1/> <mod3/> inside... |
| 10:18.28 | Wonka | <shifted/> |
| 10:19.01 | Wonka | anyone got an idea how to make that better? |
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| 10:31.30 | DocScrutinizer | raster: is the focus handling (incl auto kbd popup) when switching windows a generic duty of illume/E*/whatever? |
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| 10:32.00 | DocScrutinizer | raster: it's random flakey |
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| 11:11.01 | skamster | hello all, i had a gsm-problem since the last upgrade in shr-unstable |
| 11:11.02 | skamster | http://pastebin.org/7854 |
| 11:11.09 | skamster | could someone help me? |
| 11:11.28 | skamster | ah, i see it in the topic |
| 11:11.37 | skamster | damn.. :s |
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| 11:57.35 | xyzz | still not safe to upgrade shr-unstable? |
| 11:58.51 | Heinervdm | xyzz: yes, still unsafe |
| 11:59.14 | argiris | best working distro?(except debian) |
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| 12:10.38 | DocScrutinizer | SHR |
| 12:11.45 | DocScrutinizer | xyzz: I'll change #chan topic as soon as it's fixed |
| 12:12.04 | argiris | om2009 released date? |
| 12:12.20 | DocScrutinizer | see chan topic |
| 12:12.37 | DocScrutinizer | oooh,sorry om2009 no idea |
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| 13:51.56 | CIA-52 | openmoko: 03werner * r5414 10/trunk/eda/fped/ (12 files): (log message trimmed) |
| 13:51.56 | CIA-52 | openmoko: - File>Save now saves to a file if a second name is given on the command line, |
| 13:51.56 | CIA-52 | openmoko: to stdout if not |
| 13:51.56 | CIA-52 | openmoko: - there's no reason anymore to disallow editing the offset in new-style |
| 13:51.56 | CIA-52 | openmoko: measurements |
| 13:51.57 | CIA-52 | openmoko: - struct inst_ops is no longer opaque, so we can avoid adding even more silly |
| 13:52.01 | CIA-52 | openmoko: little access functions and open-code straightforward callbacks |
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| 15:12.29 | Chocky | all |
| 15:13.11 | CIA-52 | openmoko: 03werner * r5415 10/trunk/eda/fped/ (dump.c gui_tool.c sc89.fpd): |
| 15:13.11 | CIA-52 | openmoko: - trying to place a frame reference upset the overlay state and caused an abort |
| 15:13.11 | CIA-52 | openmoko: - dump any undumped non-measurements before the measurements |
| 15:13.11 | CIA-52 | openmoko: - finished sc89.fpd, with the full set of measurements |
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| 15:46.02 | PBeck | hi |
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| 16:23.34 | argiris_ | doesn't hava mkfs.vfat?where I can found it? |
| 16:25.32 | DocScrutinizer | ~botsnack |
| 16:25.32 | apt | :), DocScrutinizer |
| 16:26.37 | *** part/#openmoko nullix (n=philippe@92.103.174.253) |
| 16:26.44 | argiris_ | ~botsnack |
| 16:26.44 | apt | :), argiris_ |
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| 16:29.31 | Chocky | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=mkfs.vfat&go=Go |
| 16:29.43 | Chocky | opkg install dosfstools |
| 16:30.43 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: ping |
| 16:31.18 | DocScrutinizer | pong |
| 16:32.00 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: Vasco Nova joke: Q. It looks like every HW problem in the Freerunner is solved with a |
| 16:32.03 | PaulFertser | larger capacitor. What do you think went wrong in the design process? |
| 16:32.06 | PaulFertser | A. I think it was a lack of capacity. |
| 16:32.27 | DocScrutinizer | hehehe |
| 16:32.31 | Chocky | I guess it was a charged working environment |
| 16:32.35 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: i wanted to tell you the result of my talk with our cell phone repair guys. |
| 16:32.49 | Chocky | too much resistance to change |
| 16:33.52 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: so i went today to a place where there's plenty of small shops selling CDs, DVDs, laptops, digital cameras etc. There were quite some small repair shops there too. I talked to ~5 guys. |
| 16:33.58 | amarsh04 | scribbled under a door with sign "NO ADMITTANCE" - "infinite impedance?" (-: |
| 16:34.21 | Chocky | or a diode fitted the wrong way |
| 16:34.32 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: don't know why, probably the place was wrong or they didn't like my look but most of them seemed to be tough, rude and unsympathetic. |
| 16:34.46 | Chocky | argi: please don't /msg me with channel topics |
| 16:35.36 | argiris_ | <Chocky> ???anyway Installing dosfstools (2.11-r0.1) to root...An error ocurred, return value: 17. |
| 16:35.38 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: I asked them about changing one 0402 R (for the buzzfix). The general attitude is: you want something special, we don't much like it. And if you're so smart go screw^W solder yourself. |
| 16:35.42 | Chocky | !!! |
| 16:35.51 | amarsh04 | PaulFertser, sounds like the repairers were only interested in mass-market handsets |
| 16:36.08 | Chocky | did you do 'opkg update' first? |
| 16:36.39 | Chocky | Paul: well, yes. But not everyone has the right tools, nor good enough eye sight |
| 16:36.58 | PaulFertser | amarsh04: yes, quite possibly so. Probably they used to not trust customers and couldn't believe i really know what to do. They say pay us and use our tool to do soldering yourself if you think it's so easy. Or go buy yourself a soldering iron. |
| 16:37.08 | Chocky | I understand the fix, but it's not something I would have attempted myself |
| 16:38.05 | argiris_ | <Chocky> yes i did opkg update first |
| 16:38.15 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: so the nicest guy i found looked at my disassembeled device, said that the work itself is very-very easy and that he suggests to charge ~$30 for that. Or if the customer is a really nice guy probably ~15. |
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| 16:38.52 | Chocky | cost me $15 in shipping |
| 16:39.04 | DocScrutinizer | hmm, that's what I'd expect to be a reasonable prize |
| 16:39.11 | Chocky | price, too |
| 16:39.44 | PaulFertser | Chocky: well, i was going to do it myself but it was so convenient to do it at work so my coworker did it for me. Despite that i later desoldered the wire going to the cap and resoldered it again at home with an inappropriate soldering iron just to prove that's easy. |
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| 16:40.18 | Chocky | paulf: no doubt. But most people aren't HW engineers. |
| 16:40.25 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: TBH i didn't expect them to be so rude. Probably get used to talking to nice people too much ;) |
| 16:40.36 | PaulFertser | Chocky: neither am i. |
| 16:41.01 | DocScrutinizer | PaulFertser: you should join cdevel to cure this ;-) |
| 16:41.10 | Chocky | well, I think you probably are to an extent, in the same way I am. Most SW developers shouldn't be trusted with a soldering iron. |
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| 16:41.23 | amarsh04 | I had a telco tech in my room yesterday... it helped that I had the adsl modem's diagnostics page up on the pc and a textbook on Signalling System #7 on the shelf in easy view, plus a an old Telebit modem on the shelf |
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| 16:42.11 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: rude people at cdevel? Who? I thought i'm the meanest there ;) |
| 16:42.30 | PaulFertser | (well, after Ainu ;) ) |
| 16:42.31 | DocScrutinizer | ainu and tasn started a fight |
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| 16:42.49 | TAsn | DocScrutinizer, :( |
| 16:42.50 | Ainulindale | PaulFertser: I'm not mean :-) |
| 16:42.59 | TAsn | It wasn't really that much of a fight. |
| 16:43.02 | Ainulindale | I just don't like to be fiddled with |
| 16:43.21 | PaulFertser | Ainulindale: hm, that makes me the first then! Yay :D |
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| 16:43.52 | argiris_ | <Chocky> Installing dosfstools (2.11-r0.1) to root... |
| 16:43.53 | argiris_ | Upgrading libgcc1 on root from 4.1.2-r18 to 4.2.4-r5.1... |
| 16:43.53 | argiris_ | Collected errors: |
| 16:43.53 | argiris_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:44.53 | Chocky | arg: what distro are you using? |
| 16:45.06 | argiris_ | 2008.08 |
| 16:45.10 | Chocky | hah. |
| 16:45.29 | Chocky | Please install SHR. see topic, etc. |
| 16:45.33 | PaulFertser | argiris_: that is old and deprecated. |
| 16:45.39 | PaulFertser | argiris_: before it was released ;) |
| 16:45.56 | Chocky | you'll have a lot more luck with dosfstools then |
| 16:46.11 | argiris_ | <Chocky> I will install debian but i need mkfs.vfat for the installation script |
| 16:46.29 | Chocky | you can format on your PC. |
| 16:46.42 | Chocky | and you won't fit Debian on the internal flash, so you should update that anyway |
| 16:46.50 | PaulFertser | argiris_: ah, that |
| 16:46.56 | Chocky | otherwise you're just fighting old stuff |
| 16:46.56 | PaulFertser | argiris_: are you sure you want to use u-boot? |
| 16:47.13 | PaulFertser | argiris_: because if you are ok with Qi you can avoid creating a fat partition. |
| 16:47.44 | Chocky | ag: and please, "Chocky:", not "<Chocky>" |
| 16:48.00 | PaulFertser | argiris_: with special QI_whatever parameter install.sh will use a single ext3 partition. |
| 16:48.13 | argiris_ | PaulFertser: I thought a mix-grilled of partition would be better |
| 16:48.23 | Chocky | like a BBQ? |
| 16:48.34 | argiris_ | ;-) |
| 16:48.36 | Chocky | wonders what "mix-grilled" means |
| 16:48.39 | PaulFertser | argiris_: not for Qi |
| 16:48.53 | Chocky | where's Dave when I need him. |
| 16:48.54 | PaulFertser | argiris_: and debian in fact doesn't like keeping kernels on vfat. |
| 16:49.02 | PaulFertser | ~seen Dave |
| 16:49.04 | apt | dave <n=Daveweis@189-219.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch> was last seen on IRC in channel #debian, 60d 21h 48m 28s ago, saying: '<dpkg> are you using Windows?, Dave'. |
| 16:49.18 | Chocky | yes, 60 days ago. It was a rhetorhical question :p |
| 16:49.29 | Chocky | (sp) |
| 16:49.45 | Chocky | I'm not sure why you'd mention that Debian has issues with VFAT |
| 16:50.02 | Chocky | unless we're talking about on x86, but that's a completely different topic. |
| 16:50.12 | Chocky | the kernel is loaded long before Debian sees it |
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| 16:50.26 | PaulFertser | Chocky: it in fact has. When you update the kernel dpkg wants to have some timestamps or something not present on vfat. |
| 16:50.39 | Chocky | as I said. |
| 16:51.03 | Chocky | you'd probably not be using a packaged kerenl for FR on Debian, in any case |
| 16:51.15 | PaulFertser | Chocky: http://www.mail-archive.com/smartphones-userland@linuxtogo.org/msg00179.html |
| 16:51.18 | argiris_ | Chocky:If i create 1part vfat,1 part ext3 &1part swap will debian installation script change the partitions? |
| 16:51.32 | Chocky | you probably don't want to use swap |
| 16:51.37 | PaulFertser | Chocky: why not? Folks package kernels for FR and quite possibly debian users want to use it. |
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| 16:52.01 | PaulFertser | argiris_: and if and when you do, you just create some file and use it for swap. |
| 16:52.17 | Chocky | PaulFe: mostly because all of the Debian-based distros on for FR supply separate kernel already. not that you can't, etc. |
| 16:52.25 | PaulFertser | argiris_: just read the damn script, it's easy. |
| 16:52.39 | Chocky | anyway, he needs to RTFM |
| 16:52.46 | Chocky | and install SHR, perhaps |
| 16:53.03 | *** part/#openmoko milo792 (n=milo1979@cm246.sigma204.maxonline.com.sg) |
| 16:53.36 | PaulFertser | Chocky: i'm not sure, i think Debian on FR uses a packaged kernel by default. And i'm not talking about neovento (which is a dirty fork) or H:1 (i forgot everything i knew about them). |
| 16:53.52 | Chocky | Paul: well, I _am_ sure, since I tried them all :p |
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| 16:54.08 | Chocky | woo, pb_ |
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| 16:54.24 | SpeedEvil | looks at pb_. |
| 16:55.24 | Chocky | Speed: is that wise? |
| 16:57.11 | Chocky | anyway, off to fight with Firefox 3.6 |
| 17:06.37 | SpeedEvil | 3.6? |
| 17:06.44 | Chocky | yessir |
| 17:06.46 | SpeedEvil | And will it even run on FR? |
| 17:06.52 | SpeedEvil | If not - why not? |
| 17:06.53 | Chocky | Don't see why not |
| 17:07.00 | Chocky | There's nothing magical about it |
| 17:07.04 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 17:07.33 | SpeedEvil | I tried compiling I think it was 2 for FR - but it diddn't go past the profilemanager before segfaulting |
| 17:07.45 | Chocky | not that a nominally desktop browser is a neccesarily a good idea for a phone |
| 17:08.17 | SpeedEvil | I dunno |
| 17:08.43 | SpeedEvil | Fairly recently I've used 1.5 on a 64M PII/300 class machine |
| 17:08.46 | SpeedEvil | and it was quite OK |
| 17:09.46 | Chocky | it's not the performance I'm concerned about, it's the UI |
| 17:09.55 | Chocky | although 1.5 is really a substantially different codebase to 3.x. And the latter is allegedly faster |
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| 17:33.03 | dos1 | i had some firefox 3.0.x running on freerunner some time ago |
| 17:33.04 | dos1 | sloooooow |
| 17:33.08 | dos1 | but it was working ;) |
| 17:33.43 | SpeedEvil | 3 is lots slower than 2 IME. |
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| 17:33.52 | SpeedEvil | 3.5 may be a better bet |
| 17:34.01 | SpeedEvil | For me it's a fair bit faster. |
| 17:34.10 | SpeedEvil | I wonder if tracemonkey does arm |
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| 17:35.57 | azaghal | Firefox is a pig, to be honest. |
| 17:37.04 | SpeedEvil | At least the tools to help are over the horizon. |
| 17:37.12 | SpeedEvil | Profiling memory usage in use |
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| 17:48.42 | argiris_ | if you load nand boot menu and you did flash from uboot to Qi.It will be ok? |
| 17:49.14 | Chocky | tries to parse that. |
| 17:49.17 | Chocky | er, um, yes. |
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| 18:02.08 | Wonka | hrmf. where does the digital clock in SHR's Illume come from? And why doesn't debian's Illume have it? |
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| 18:38.59 | argiris_ | ok I have shr.I get app execution error while opening contacts |
| 18:40.43 | Defiant- | any recommends for an rss reader? |
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| 18:46.09 | Kero | if uBoot mmcinit gives manufacturer 0 and serial # 80ff00 amidst a bunch of timeouts, I suppse that qualifies as "not supported" ;) |
| 18:52.45 | Kero | no worries, guy in shop allowed me to test, so 2.6.24 kernel can read it. Wiki supported SD cards page updated. |
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| 19:13.13 | Digital_Pioneer | So where do I go to request packages be added to SHR repos? |
| 19:15.11 | SpeedEvil | I think you have to climb K2, and declaim the request in french - while dressed in a hot-pink kimono. |
| 19:15.38 | SpeedEvil | Oops - sorry - that's for getting a bug fixed in flash. |
| 19:17.02 | Digital_Pioneer | SpeedEvil: I don't believe you. There is no way to get a bug fixed in flash. |
| 19:17.32 | SpeedEvil | I think I've gone on about the internationalisation bug before. |
| 19:17.34 | SpeedEvil | Insane. |
| 19:17.37 | Wonka | Digital_Pioneer: the other day, TAsn sounded like you had to do nothing more than open a ticket in the SHR bugtracker and provide enough information on where to find the sources |
| 19:18.12 | Digital_Pioneer | Wonka: Well, what I want packaged has no sources. :) I want the nEo themes packaged. |
| 19:18.28 | Digital_Pioneer | Actually, they are packaged. I just want them in a repo. |
| 19:18.56 | Digital_Pioneer | There is a nEo theme metapackage that deps all of them, and I want it in a repo so it's useful. |
| 19:23.03 | Wonka | hrm. »W: GPG error: http://pkg-fso.alioth.debian.org unstable Release: The following signatures were invalid: KEYEXPIRED 1249744278« |
| 19:27.52 | tobii_ | ;D |
| 19:31.45 | Wonka | Digital_Pioneer: hm, then just open a ticket ;) |
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| 19:33.53 | Bert_2 | just dropping by to say cudos to whoever cleaned up the images dir of shr-unstable |
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| 19:34.04 | Chocky | heh |
| 19:34.20 | Chocky | was lots of crazy stuff in there |
| 19:35.44 | Bert_2 | that's the least you can say |
| 19:36.11 | Bert_2 | any updates on the "I break GSM"-upgrade on shr, I see that upgrading is still not a good idea |
| 19:38.29 | Bert_2 | no one here has an idea who's working on it ? |
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| 19:46.31 | xyzz | sometimes, when i plug in usb, my host terminal logs "device not accepting address 90, error -71" |
| 19:46.36 | xyzz | any idea why? |
| 19:46.41 | xyzz | (shr unstable) |
| 19:46.58 | Bert_2 | no idea, sorry |
| 19:47.01 | xyzz | (just before that current broken upgrade) |
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| 20:59.37 | CIA-52 | freesmartphone.org: 03zimmermann 07dos/opimd-tracking * r2d8026109cfe 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/ (pimb_sqlite_dates.py pimd_dates.py): |
| 20:59.37 | CIA-52 | freesmartphone.org: opimd: add Dates domain and SQLite-Dates backend |
| 20:59.37 | CIA-52 | freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Sebastian Krzyszkowiak <seba.dos1@gmail.com> |
| 20:59.40 | CIA-52 | freesmartphone.org: 03zimmermann 07dos/opimd-tracking * rf3b0b98412dc 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/pimd_dates.py: |
| 20:59.41 | CIA-52 | freesmartphone.org: opimd: Dates: fixed indentiation error and removed unused method GetDatesOfDayByTimestamp |
| 20:59.44 | CIA-52 | freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Sebastian Krzyszkowiak <seba.dos1@gmail.com> |
| 20:59.46 | CIA-52 | freesmartphone.org: 03seba.dos1 07dos/opimd-tracking * r2dc20610d873 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/pimd_dates.py: opimd: Dates: don't reference do Contacts in code anymore |
| 20:59.49 | CIA-52 | freesmartphone.org: 03zimmermann 07dos/opimd-tracking * r80d52fb75511 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/opimd.py: |
| 20:59.52 | CIA-52 | freesmartphone.org: opimd: include Dates domain and SQLite-Dates backend when loading |
| 20:59.54 | CIA-52 | freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Sebastian Krzyszkowiak <seba.dos1@gmail.com> |
| 20:59.56 | CIA-52 | freesmartphone.org: 03seba.dos1 07dos/opimd-tracking * rfa3c5537efce 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/pimd_dates.py: opimd: Dates: fix syntax error |
| 21:00.05 | CIA-52 | freesmartphone.org: 03seba.dos1 07dos/opimd-tracking * r0122e7730c1a 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/helpers.py: opimd: helpers: add InvalidData dbus error |
| 21:00.08 | CIA-52 | freesmartphone.org: 03seba.dos1 07dos/opimd-tracking * r5aa05e19ce1f 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/pimd_dates.py: opimd: Dates: raise correct dbus error (InvalidData) |
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| 21:02.31 | CIA-52 | openmoko: 03werner * r5416 10/trunk/eda/fped/ (10 files): |
| 21:02.31 | CIA-52 | openmoko: - added KiCad output |
| 21:02.31 | CIA-52 | openmoko: - when saving a file, we now make a backup of any existing file with the same |
| 21:02.31 | CIA-52 | openmoko: name |
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| 21:32.20 | Digital_Pioneer | Aaah! Python can't find elementary?? |
| 21:32.35 | Digital_Pioneer | ImportError: No module named elementary |
| 21:32.45 | Digital_Pioneer | ^^^ From running `shr-settings` |
| 21:35.11 | *** join/#openmoko dcordes_ (n=luke@unaffiliated/dcordes) |
| 21:40.44 | Digital_Pioneer | Python is broken! It can't find any modules. :'( |
| 21:42.41 | Digital_Pioneer | Meh, one reinstall later and it works. |
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| 21:47.34 | xyzz | \o/ libgphoto2 + canon eos working with om |
| 21:47.51 | xyzz | now to write some fancy gui |
| 21:53.28 | DocScrutinizer | xyzz: heh :-D |
| 21:53.43 | DocScrutinizer | cool app |
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| 22:28.59 | Rakhun | I heard some talk about whitescreens on gta01, but I just reproduced it on gta02 by setting the time forward by a few minutes with 'date -s <new date/time>' on Om08 (in case that helps with the testing) |
| 22:32.00 | Zorkman | Rakhun: add that info to the ticket on trac |
| 22:33.33 | skamster_ | i don't think, it's possible to upgrade now? |
| 22:33.51 | skamster_ | without lost gsm? |
| 22:33.57 | Rakhun | Zorkman: can't you do it, please? I have no web browser available at the moment nor am I bothered about the issue, it just happened at this specific situation |
| 22:34.36 | ndnihil | skamster_: the topic should change when that is fixed |
| 22:34.58 | skamster_ | ok.. hope, it's soon.. |
| 22:36.39 | PaulFertser | Rakhun: wsod on gta02 is well-known, really fixed only in openwrt kernel. Hopefully others will get it soon too. |
| 22:37.13 | Rakhun | PaulFertser: oh, ok :) |
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| 22:37.21 | PaulFertser | Rakhun: do you really mean you got some nasty effect simly by using date -s ? |
| 22:38.45 | Rakhun | PaulFertser: I can't be sure that's really what triggered it, but it happened just when I ran that command (followed by some heavy lag before the WSOD) |
| 22:39.07 | max_posedon | PaulFertser, isn't it fixed in shr-unstable too? (andy tracking?) |
| 22:39.26 | PaulFertser | Rakhun: hm, very strange... Is it reproducible? |
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| 22:40.05 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: no, it is not. |
| 22:40.39 | Rakhun | PaulFertser: I'll give it a try |
| 22:40.45 | max_posedon | early I was able reproduce wsod when connection with windows, latest 2 weeks - I can't |
| 22:41.45 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: FR WSODed after connecting to windows? That's positively something unknown. |
| 22:41.55 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: and unbelievable. |
| 22:42.24 | max_posedon | ok, not wsod, but kernel panic... |
| 22:42.43 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: especially given there were no relevant changes in the last 2 weeks |
| 22:43.09 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: kernel panic was possible after connecting to w2ksp1 iirc. |
| 22:43.23 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: http://git.openmoko.org/?p=kernel.git;a=commit;h=4e418ad2a6bae9681a7863ab8f376ce47da3e33a |
| 22:43.47 | max_posedon | ah ok, may be |
| 22:44.04 | PaulFertser | (i of course was against pushing this patch) |
| 22:46.18 | Rakhun | PaulFertser: I'm unable to reproduce it now |
| 22:46.36 | PaulFertser | Rakhun: wsod always happened after resume. |
| 22:46.56 | Rakhun | oh, I'll try with that then |
| 22:47.22 | Rakhun | no change |
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| 22:56.37 | Slaxxer | which shr-unstable to use? |
| 23:01.35 | *** join/#openmoko Psi (n=ben@ip-58-28-158-238.static-xdsl.xnet.co.nz) |
| 23:02.56 | Slaxxer | ? |
| 23:03.11 | Slaxxer | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:05.20 | ndnihil | 20090703 has been working pretty well for me |
| 23:09.22 | Slaxxer | ok |
| 23:09.33 | Kero | SHR 20090808 on Neo: no longer starts gllin automatically; does not ask for PIN; alarms is nice, tho! if I can get it to make noise with the 2.6.24 kernel, that is... |
| 23:10.09 | *** join/#openmoko Marcello2 (i=Marcello@ppp-75-151.30-151.libero.it) |
| 23:10.17 | Kero | has figured out whattthe "no space left on device" is in the start-up sequence: boot.fb does not fit in fb |
| 23:10.24 | Slaxxer | i may try an older kernel with that 0808 image |
| 23:10.40 | Slaxxer | i have qtmoko on right now |
| 23:11.12 | *** join/#openmoko batti (n=batti@p5B1498D2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 23:11.12 | Slaxxer | i need an shr that gps is known to work |
| 23:11.21 | Slaxxer | an kernel |
| 23:11.36 | Slaxxer | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:12.29 | ndnihil | gps works great on that one I mentioned |
| 23:12.32 | ndnihil | I'm using it now |
| 23:12.42 | ndnihil | using the gps actively that is |
| 23:12.47 | ndnihil | writing a lojack type thing |
| 23:13.49 | Kero | hey, there's the PIN req, after reboot. |
| 23:13.52 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro|isBack (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 23:13.56 | Kero | there is sound. |
| 23:14.03 | ndnihil | mine has never ever asked me for a pin |
| 23:14.09 | ndnihil | good thing too, I have no idea what it is |
| 23:14.20 | Kero | 0000 |
| 23:14.39 | ndnihil | perhaps my sim doesn't require one |
| 23:14.49 | Kero | yeah, it can be switched off. |
| 23:15.28 | Kero | doesn't seem alarms/at wakes up a suspended Neo though. |
| 23:15.49 | Kero | do I need some specific modules for that for the 2.6.24 kernel maybe? |
| 23:15.51 | ndnihil | at wont do it, that's linux/OS level |
| 23:16.07 | ndnihil | the GSM modem needs to be told to alarm at the designated time |
| 23:16.16 | ndnihil | so it will wake up the CPU for leenooks |
| 23:17.00 | Kero | well, I tried with updated SHR yesterday, then it worked; but I forgot whether it was a 24 or 29 kernel. |
| 23:17.43 | Kero | surprise, after reboo, even gllin is started automatically again. |
| 23:23.15 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: no, it's PMU that can wake up the system at specified time. |
| 23:23.30 | ndnihil | isn't that built into SOC? |
| 23:23.41 | ndnihil | along with GSM modem? |
| 23:23.44 | ndnihil | er, the other SOC |
| 23:23.52 | *** join/#openmoko Tanuva (n=tanuva@e177228124.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 23:23.53 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: no, it's pcf50606 on gta01 and pcf50633 on gta02 |
| 23:24.11 | PaulFertser | ndnihil: connected via i2c |
| 23:26.58 | Slaxxer | kero was that the 0808 shr unstable? |
| 23:26.58 | ndnihil | ah |
| 23:27.09 | ndnihil | I haven't gone too deep into the hardware side of things |
| 23:27.18 | Kero | has to migrate FSO from NAND to SD... so he can put the 2.6.29 kernel next to 2.6.24... |
| 23:27.22 | ndnihil | though, I should order parts for the buzzfix |
| 23:27.23 | Kero | Slaxxer: yeah |
| 23:28.08 | Kero | Slaxxer: I have good experience w/ 20090703, but 20090808 seems to be good, too. |
| 23:28.44 | Slaxxer | well i used the latest kernel that may be the problem |
| 23:29.01 | ndnihil | uImage-2.6.29-oe10+gitr119821+e03b339e05fbf46836c83d5595d4db77112b429d-r3.5-om-gta02.bin |
| 23:29.04 | ndnihil | that's the kernel I'm using |
| 23:29.11 | ndnihil | no major complaints so far |
| 23:29.24 | ndnihil | been on there for a few weeks |
| 23:29.46 | Slaxxer | 119838 is what i have |
| 23:30.22 | Kero | 119838 causes my whie screens after suspend (gta01v4) |
| 23:30.29 | Slaxxer | ahh |
| 23:30.44 | Kero | apart from that, it works fine. |
| 23:37.04 | *** part/#openmoko Marcello2 (i=Marcello@ppp-75-151.30-151.libero.it) |
| 23:40.07 | Kero | my new SD is terribly slow. |
| 23:40.27 | ndnihil | using it for swap? |
| 23:41.44 | ndnihil | been pondering loading the OS onto uSD, then using NAND as swap |
| 23:42.54 | PaulFertser | Kero: v4? is wakeup from GSM working for you? |
| 23:42.54 | Kero | half the RAM is cached stuff. |
| 23:43.33 | Kero | don't need to swap, but an scp is only 5 kB/s. that's insane. |
| 23:43.34 | *** join/#openmoko everslick (n=clemens@91-113-120-39.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 23:43.43 | PaulFertser | Kero: are you sure it's v4 and not Bv4? |
| 23:43.59 | ndnihil | I was asking if you were using swap, because swap slows down access to uSD by huge amounts |
| 23:44.07 | max_posedon | Kero, in first, check is it mounted sync or not |
| 23:44.25 | *** join/#openmoko laotseu (n=laotseu@nostalgeek.info) |
| 23:44.27 | Kero | max_posedon: ai. yes. |
| 23:44.50 | PaulFertser | Kero: red pcb or green pcf? |
| 23:44.53 | max_posedon | usually it is good idea mount card async |
| 23:44.55 | PaulFertser | s/pcf/pcb/ |
| 23:45.00 | Kero | killer. |
| 23:45.24 | Kero | PaulFertser: peeking: green |
| 23:45.39 | *** join/#openmoko Quadduc (n=quadduc@149-194-76.oke2-bras2.adsl.tele2.no) |
| 23:45.50 | PaulFertser | Kero: ah, ok that means you have Bv4 MP the best available gta01 version. |
| 23:46.17 | *** join/#openmoko nslu2-log (n=nslu2-lo@limax.nslu2-linux.org) |
| 23:49.01 | Kero | wonders which scripts mounts all his SD partitions... |
| 23:52.38 | Kero | there is a mount -a, but where does it take its info from? must be blind, found it easily on 20090703, can't see it on 20090808 |
| 23:53.56 | ndnihil | /etc/fstab |
| 23:55.20 | Kero | that's not containing all my partitions! |
| 23:55.31 | Kero | well, it is now, in the hopes things get better |
| 23:56.05 | ndnihil | grep mmcblk /etc/init.d/* |
| 23:56.17 | ndnihil | or not |
| 23:56.22 | ndnihil | (doesnt return anything) |
| 23:56.32 | ndnihil | fstab is what is used by 'mount -a' though |
