| 00:10.06 | *** join/#openmoko Psi (n=ben@ip-58-28-158-238.static-xdsl.xnet.co.nz) |
| 00:10.33 | DukeOfURL | been searching the wiki with no joy. can someone point me to the latest images for the gta01? |
| 00:10.36 | DukeOfURL | thanks |
| 00:11.03 | DukeOfURL | kernel & rootfs |
| 00:11.28 | Zorkman_ | DukeOfURL: wich distro you want? |
| 00:11.33 | Blu3 | that depends on the distribution you want. SHR was suggested to me |
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| 00:12.21 | DukeOfURL | dunno. the battery in my moto flip phone died and I need to resurrect this neo1973 from the dead. all i need is basic gsm capability. |
| 00:12.48 | DukeOfURL | what runs on the gta01? |
| 00:12.54 | DukeOfURL | android? |
| 00:12.56 | Blu3 | has the freerunner |
| 00:13.04 | DukeOfURL | lucky you |
| 00:13.18 | DukeOfURL | what is shr? |
| 00:13.30 | Zorkman_ | stable hybrid release |
| 00:13.41 | DukeOfURL | ok, sounds good. |
| 00:13.42 | Zorkman_ | a community distribution based on the framework (FSO) |
| 00:13.48 | mmontour | http://shr.bearstech.com/shr-testing/images/om-gta01/ (haven't tried it myself) |
| 00:13.56 | Zorkman_ | look it up at openmoko.org or at shr-project.org |
| 00:13.59 | DukeOfURL | thanks, i'll try it. |
| 00:14.16 | DukeOfURL | is testlab the kernel? |
| 00:14.33 | mmontour | kernel is uImage.bin |
| 00:14.36 | DukeOfURL | ok, I see uImage |
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| 00:16.13 | mmontour | DukeOfURL: it's also recommended to update your GSM firmware to "moko11". See "GSM/Flashing" wiki page |
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| 00:27.35 | SeligArkin | ok then |
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| 00:27.52 | SeligArkin | ssid hiding may be shit security |
| 00:28.10 | mjr | it is shitty security |
| 00:28.27 | SeligArkin | but wheneverI re-enable the brodcast, something kills my wireless |
| 00:28.32 | mjr | it's basically sufficient for showing malicious intent if you catch somebody using it |
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| 00:28.58 | mjr | otherwise useless |
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| 00:29.09 | SeligArkin | I should setup proper security |
| 00:29.29 | mjr | has an open wlan ap himself behind a separate natted network |
| 00:29.53 | mjr | not a very busy spot here either though so no real trouble being generous to the occasional visitor |
| 00:31.21 | DocScrutinizer | SeligArkin: what a piece of shit do you have for WLAN-AP? |
| 00:31.38 | SeligArkin | DocScrutinizer: linksys WRT54G router |
| 00:31.55 | SeligArkin | I suspect it is a neighbor with a misconfigured gadget |
| 00:32.34 | DocScrutinizer | SeligArkin: try change channel |
| 00:33.25 | SeligArkin | does so |
| 00:33.58 | DocScrutinizer | SeligArkin: sometimes it even helps to give a channel argument to client (FR here) to avoid associating to some rogue AP on another channel |
| 00:34.26 | DocScrutinizer | SeligArkin: please don't ask how to do this with WPA-supplicant ;-) |
| 00:34.42 | SeligArkin | DocScrutinizer: the problem is the router's wireless *dies* not the FR's |
| 00:34.52 | SeligArkin | none of the devices in the house detect the AP anymore |
| 00:34.56 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, piece of shit |
| 00:35.11 | SeligArkin | yeah... |
| 00:35.20 | DocScrutinizer | update WRT firmware? |
| 00:35.32 | SeligArkin | I might soon |
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| 00:41.51 | SeligArkin | suprise, another cop was shot |
| 00:42.10 | SeligArkin | thats getting to be... unnews around here |
| 00:42.33 | DocScrutinizer | where's here? |
| 00:42.39 | SeligArkin | near philly |
| 00:43.04 | DocScrutinizer | uh, US-people shooting each other really no news |
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| 00:43.13 | SeligArkin | indeed |
| 00:44.17 | DocScrutinizer | U r freaking mad with rifles |
| 00:44.17 | SpeedEvil | Unless it was an openmoko involved shooting |
| 00:44.17 | SpeedEvil | few rifles are actually used to kill people. |
| 00:44.18 | SpeedEvil | or rathere - few of the total gun deaths involve rifles |
| 00:44.18 | DocScrutinizer | see: UK-bobbies had no weapon until 70s |
| 00:44.28 | SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: 95% (?) of them are still 'unarmed' - they have a club |
| 00:44.28 | SeligArkin | I misread that |
| 00:44.54 | SeligArkin | who would use a building to attack someone? |
| 00:45.02 | SeligArkin | :P |
| 00:45.58 | DocScrutinizer | s/rifles/guns,weapons/ |
| 00:46.01 | nezza-_- | Does anybody know how many people are actually taking part in the developer challenge? |
| 00:46.17 | Zorkman_ | " who would use a building to attack someone?" must be the ging talking, but are you talking about smacking people dead with a building? |
| 00:46.26 | vininim | the challenge had bad timming |
| 00:46.36 | vininim | had it happened in december... |
| 00:46.38 | Zorkman_ | nezza-_-: which one, there are three challenges "running" |
| 00:46.42 | SpeedEvil | 'Whereas police in the United States and across the English Channel in Europe routinely carry sidearms, only about 2,500 officers among Scotland Yard's roster of 27,000 are authorized to use firearms, and most of those belong to special squads involved in anti-terrorist work or diplomatic and royal protection duties.' |
| 00:47.01 | nezza-_- | Zorkman_: the one from Risto H. Kurppa |
| 00:47.02 | SpeedEvil | nezza-_-: I'm interested, but I've no time. |
| 00:47.16 | DocScrutinizer | is going to learn esperanto. So nobody will understand and he always can insist in being right |
| 00:47.28 | vininim | DocScrutinizer: lojban plox |
| 00:47.34 | SpeedEvil | klingon. |
| 00:47.47 | SpeedEvil | votes for klingon to be made the language of OM. |
| 00:47.51 | SpeedEvil | The glyphs look cool. |
| 00:47.51 | mmontour | learned esperanto as a child (and forgot it soon after that) |
| 00:47.53 | DocScrutinizer | kapp'la |
| 00:47.55 | Zorkman_ | SpeedEvil: yeah, but "In York it is perfectly legal to shoot a Scotsman with a crossbow upon seeing one, except for on Sundays. However any Scotsman caught drunk or with a weapon can still be shot on a Sunday, except with a bow and arrow." |
| 00:47.57 | nezza-_- | votes for klingon, too |
| 00:48.03 | vininim | lojban would be awesome for voice recognition |
| 00:48.36 | Zorkman_ | Similarly in Chester it is legal to shoot a Welsh person with a crossbow, as long as it is within the city walls and is done after midnight. |
| 00:48.38 | SeligArkin | isn't lojban that "100% logical" language? |
| 00:48.42 | Zorkman_ | so why the hell would they need guns? |
| 00:48.53 | vininim | ``yes'' |
| 00:49.26 | vininim | designed with computers in mind |
| 00:49.27 | nezza-_- | vininim: very bad idea to type this into a shell -.- |
| 00:50.00 | vininim | heh, indeed |
| 00:50.06 | SeligArkin | nezza-_-: no, it should syntax error... |
| 00:50.08 | SeligArkin | tries |
| 00:50.17 | SeligArkin | huh |
| 00:50.23 | SeligArkin | it doesn't |
| 00:50.23 | vininim | I was shocked too |
| 00:50.25 | SeligArkin | I thought it would |
| 00:50.26 | *** join/#openmoko ayeuu (n=ayeuu@89-158-224-174.rev.dartybox.com) |
| 00:50.53 | vininim | anyway, lojban phonetics is supposedly easier for speech recognition |
| 00:50.54 | nezza-_- | i pasted it into a remote shell and i had to close the connection to get it of (though it was still running in a screen, but the Ctrl+C was not recognized) |
| 00:51.08 | SpeedEvil | yes alone does that |
| 00:51.16 | Zorkman_ | how come that command does that? |
| 00:51.17 | SpeedEvil | that's the whole purpose of yes |
| 00:51.22 | DocScrutinizer | nezza-_-: err, nothing a ^C couldn't cure |
| 00:51.30 | SpeedEvil | it's designed for piping into commands that want user input |
| 00:51.46 | SpeedEvil | yes no |
| 00:51.46 | mmontour | :(){ :|:;};: |
| 00:51.50 | SpeedEvil | will output lots of nos |
| 00:51.53 | mmontour | also a bad thing to type into a shell |
| 00:52.00 | nezza-_- | mmontour: forkbomb :) |
| 00:52.17 | DukeOfURL | THIS NEO SOFTWARE IS REALLY COOL! |
| 00:52.21 | mmontour | a test of whether or not you read the documentation for 'ulimit' |
| 00:53.10 | DocScrutinizer | hehe |
| 00:53.28 | DocScrutinizer | reading won't suffice ;) |
| 00:53.35 | SeligArkin | I type that into a friend's server sometimes |
| 00:53.42 | SeligArkin | when he need to shut it down |
| 00:54.01 | DocScrutinizer | SeligArkin: you also shoot while enemy down ;) |
| 00:54.30 | SeligArkin | "brb restarting" ssh friend-sever :(){:|:;};: |
| 00:54.45 | Zorkman_ | if anyone is still -minded at this hour: cat /dev/ttySAC1 gives me this: http://pastebin.com/d4a85101a but tangogps still sees 0 sattelites, is this norma? |
| 00:54.49 | Zorkman_ | *normal |
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| 00:57.16 | SeligArkin | DocScrutinizer: he finds it amusing. :P |
| 00:59.47 | SeligArkin | seems changing the channel worked |
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| 01:02.04 | DocScrutinizer | "" |
| 01:02.06 | DocScrutinizer | I want to download the kernel via wifi during bootloading phase. I |
| 01:02.07 | DocScrutinizer | am not sure is it difficult |
| 01:02.09 | DocScrutinizer | "" LOL |
| 01:02.33 | SpeedEvil | ponders |
| 01:02.51 | SpeedEvil | it's not hideously difficult I suppose. |
| 01:02.55 | SpeedEvil | 'use the source'. |
| 01:03.05 | raster | oh |
| 01:03.15 | raster | just drag in the kernel tcpip stack |
| 01:03.19 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: suggest to include it in Qi ;-) |
| 01:03.21 | raster | and dhclient |
| 01:03.31 | raster | and wireless-tools |
| 01:03.36 | raster | and stick them into qi |
| 01:03.42 | SpeedEvil | I think I've mentioned boot over GPRS before |
| 01:04.08 | DocScrutinizer | even better :D |
| 01:04.13 | raster | and since most wireless networks need some form of auth/key |
| 01:04.29 | DocScrutinizer | rotfl |
| 01:04.30 | raster | throw in enough touchscreen and fb handling to put up a ui to ask for the key |
| 01:04.32 | raster | and handle input |
| 01:04.45 | DocScrutinizer | muahahahaha |
| 01:04.47 | raster | no problems! |
| 01:04.55 | raster | shouldnt be much work at all |
| 01:05.01 | raster | qi will still be small and fast |
| 01:05.08 | DocScrutinizer | sure |
| 01:05.30 | Blu3 | sounds like uboot and adding usb support, pxe boot, etc |
| 01:05.30 | Blu3 | it'll happen eventually |
| 01:05.53 | DocScrutinizer | giggles |
| 01:05.56 | SpeedEvil | raster: of course, to keep it small and flexible, you need a bootloader language. I suggest javascript. |
| 01:06.22 | raster | SpeedEvil: of course! |
| 01:06.36 | raster | SpeedEvil: but we cant have that be slow, so lets also put in a jit and a vm |
| 01:06.37 | DocScrutinizer | muuuuuuuuuuhuuuuuuuuuu |
| 01:07.37 | Blu3 | speedevil, well. we have OTA image updates for cellphones |
| 01:08.07 | DocScrutinizer | Blu3: yeah, you know how they're done? |
| 01:08.15 | Blu3 | nope |
| 01:08.45 | DocScrutinizer | full system downloading an image, then flashing |
| 01:10.02 | Blu3 | sounds about right |
| 01:10.34 | raster | that's... almost sane |
| 01:11.04 | raster | wonders what what happened to the phone industry in creating something... sane |
| 01:12.01 | SpeedEvil | Is the dash still on sale? |
| 01:12.05 | SpeedEvil | And how much isi t? |
| 01:12.09 | SpeedEvil | idly wonders. |
| 01:13.22 | nezza-_- | raster: we also pack wpa_supplicant on top of it |
| 01:13.41 | nezza-_- | raster: should be no problem :-) |
| 01:14.16 | nezza-_- | slaps himself cause he hasn't recognized the small "--More--" in the down right edge |
| 01:15.13 | SpeedEvil | . |
| 01:15.15 | raster | nezza-_-: oh yes. though i kind of assimed that was part of "wireless tools" :) |
| 01:15.58 | nezza-_- | raster: Well.. when will we release? in 2 hours? |
| 01:16.05 | Blu3 | naw, make it amusing. a small app that pipes a hex editor thru netcat to the radio |
| 01:18.07 | raster | nezza-_-: no problems! :) |
| 01:18.16 | rooly | raster: how goes your device that you're creating |
| 01:21.25 | *** join/#openmoko jesperj (n=jesperj@c213-89-133-79.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 01:26.19 | nezza-_- | so. good nights guys! raster: happy hacking. |
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| 01:27.26 | raster | ciao! |
| 01:27.37 | raster | rooly: still poking at it |
| 01:28.28 | SpeedEvil | Too much poking can be bad. |
| 01:28.47 | SpeedEvil | At some stage you've got to let it scab over, and heal into its final state, even if somewhat ugly. |
| 01:29.09 | rooly | finalized on yer name yet? |
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| 01:46.43 | DocScrutinizer | rooly: you have some xx k-bucks venture capital? |
| 01:47.06 | rooly | i might in the not-to-distant future |
| 01:47.14 | DocScrutinizer | duh |
| 01:47.59 | SpeedEvil | The key to a successful venture is to get a large slice of the VC up-front, then piss off to somewhere warm. |
| 01:48.15 | DocScrutinizer | didn't expect that answer :)) |
| 01:48.25 | rooly | lol |
| 01:49.35 | raster | rooly: well - name is the least important thing |
| 01:49.47 | raster | getting the right people in on it |
| 01:49.55 | SpeedEvil | put 'i' in front of it |
| 01:50.07 | raster | and more importantly ensuring 1. you now how many customers u have (ie how many can be sold at what price) |
| 01:50.14 | raster | and then.. the funding to actually do it |
| 01:50.21 | rooly | SpeedEvil: nah, 3 vowels don't work to well together in a 4-letter word |
| 01:50.38 | SpeedEvil | and then leveraging initial buy into price decreases and volume |
| 01:52.58 | raster | but i'm pretty much settled on hardware ecept screen+ts panel are flexbile (and frankly they kind of go hand in hand and shape the overall design) |
| 01:53.05 | raster | and 3g is still a problem |
| 01:53.54 | rooly | doesn't find 3g a necessity... |
| 01:54.26 | raster | the problem is - to most customers it is |
| 01:54.31 | DocScrutinizer | rooly: you're a rare species |
| 01:54.34 | raster | especially anyone wanting to buy in numbers |
| 01:54.36 | raster | eg telcos |
| 01:55.06 | raster | if it isnt 3g they dont muhc care unless its so hyper cheap that subsidy isnt needed or its minimal |
| 01:55.08 | SpeedEvil | buy a selection of cheap 3g phones, find the most appropriate one, then buy a reballing machine. |
| 01:55.20 | rooly | DocScrutinizer: i wouldn't say rare, more akin to "not sold to all the hype surrounding medium-bandwidth dailup" |
| 01:55.37 | raster | SpeedEvil: still need the specs to control the 3g chip |
| 01:55.49 | raster | SpeedEvil: theres several varieties - some are memory mapped |
| 01:55.57 | raster | not hooked up via serial or usb |
| 01:56.04 | SpeedEvil | raster: yeah, I know |
| 01:56.27 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: we don't want another iphone |
| 01:56.32 | SpeedEvil | raster: you don't want to have to implement the 3G stack of course, which'll knock out a fair subset |
| 01:57.00 | SpeedEvil | I dunno. |
| 01:57.05 | vininim | I do =D |
| 01:57.11 | SpeedEvil | I don't think much is wrong with the iphone hardware |
| 01:57.32 | DocScrutinizer | I'm not talking hw |
| 01:57.43 | SpeedEvil | oh |
| 01:58.03 | rooly | agrees with speed on the hw of the iphone |
| 01:58.03 | raster | SpeedEvil: yeah. you want one with a "at command interface" and maybe a "high speed data transfer bus" (eg a usb device just for that) |
| 01:58.07 | rooly | great peice of meat really |
| 01:58.31 | raster | rooly: i agree. i havent bought the 3g hype |
| 01:58.33 | raster | BUT |
| 01:58.40 | raster | telcos want it |
| 01:59.03 | DocScrutinizer | got it and now wants it |
| 01:59.06 | raster | and if u ever want to have a chance at selling any decent quantity - u want 3g as thats the onyl way a telco will ever want to pony up money for it |
| 01:59.10 | rooly | of course they do, cause they get to sell rediculously overpriced data plans, and rediculously overpriced phones to use those plans |
| 01:59.18 | raster | hmmm |
| 01:59.23 | raster | well actually - that depends where u are |
| 01:59.28 | raster | but in .au its the reverse |
| 01:59.38 | raster | 2g data is about 100x more expensive than 3g data |
| 01:59.42 | SpeedEvil | personally - I don't _especially_ care about kernel openness, or even hardware opennese. Binary blobs are just fine, as long as they have a nice abstraction layer. |
| 01:59.44 | raster | per mb |
| 01:59.53 | SpeedEvil | And I can do anything to the UI I want. |
| 01:59.58 | raster | in fact the teclso want to get data the hell off their 2g networks |
| 01:59.59 | DocScrutinizer | yup here in D same |
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| 02:00.10 | SeligArkin | I don't mind if the hardware is propatary, as long as I can interface with it however I want |
| 02:00.11 | raster | it clogs them up and they were just not designed for it |
| 02:00.16 | raster | 3g was much better designed for data |
| 02:00.27 | SpeedEvil | In the UK, for pay-as-you-go, you can get a day of 3G for 2 pounds. Or a day of 2G for 0.50 |
| 02:00.33 | raster | so to encourage data to get off their 2g networks.. they offer cheap 3g data and make 2g data hyper-expensive |
| 02:00.35 | SpeedEvil | (if you buy 5 days) |
| 02:01.16 | raster | SpeedEvil: different there i guess |
| 02:01.21 | SpeedEvil | making - surprisingly - 2G 'always on' about the same price as most DSL connections. |
| 02:01.25 | raster | but here its the total reverse |
| 02:01.35 | SpeedEvil | of course - somewhat slower. |
| 02:01.42 | SpeedEvil | Though not much. |
| 02:01.48 | DocScrutinizer | here you get a month for 25eur, no matter which transfer |
| 02:01.48 | SpeedEvil | stabs his 160kbps DSL |
| 02:02.00 | raster | 6gb of 3g data will be about 25eur for a month |
| 02:02.19 | raster | 2g data for 6g will cost you last i calculated about 120x that |
| 02:02.45 | raster | but in the end - 3g is capable of higher speeds |
| 02:02.47 | raster | easily |
| 02:02.49 | raster | and lower latency |
| 02:02.54 | raster | latency on 2g is atrocious |
| 02:03.00 | raster | hspa is... far better |
| 02:03.11 | raster | and 3g give the user a choice at least |
| 02:03.21 | raster | they can choose just not to use it if its cheaper on 2g |
| 02:03.28 | raster | 3g is useless for voice calls as u pay the same no matter what |
| 02:03.42 | raster | same for sms |
| 02:03.44 | SpeedEvil | barring voip |
| 02:03.46 | DocScrutinizer | friend of mine uses hscsd instead of gprs 2G |
| 02:03.50 | raster | sure |
| 02:03.54 | DocScrutinizer | for latency reasons |
| 02:03.55 | Blu3 | have any of you set up claws mail on your gta2? |
| 02:03.55 | raster | voip i just lump in with data |
| 02:04.04 | johnsu01 | Blu3: yes |
| 02:04.23 | Blu3 | :) how do you get it to to -get- mail? |
| 02:04.55 | Blu3 | i have my account all properly setup, it just doesn't react when i choose 'get mail' |
| 02:05.12 | DocScrutinizer | raster: hmm, I used voip over 3G, no problem |
| 02:05.12 | Blu3 | i can send mail just fine |
| 02:05.28 | raster | DocScrutinizer: yeah - 3g has better latency |
| 02:05.32 | raster | i think umts still isnt great |
| 02:05.44 | raster | but hspa really improves it (from what i read) |
| 02:05.49 | *** join/#openmoko Varox (n=Varox@p4FD477D5.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 02:05.59 | DocScrutinizer | yup hsdpa here |
| 02:06.07 | raster | 2g is pointless for voip |
| 02:06.11 | raster | first bandwidth |
| 02:06.13 | DocScrutinizer | sure |
| 02:06.19 | raster | gprs in theory does 40kbit or so |
| 02:06.21 | raster | (48) |
| 02:06.23 | raster | BUT |
| 02:06.25 | DocScrutinizer | second latency |
| 02:06.28 | raster | in practice u get about 20kbit |
| 02:06.43 | raster | so u are already low on the bandwidth side alone for voip |
| 02:06.52 | *** join/#openmoko Defiant- (i=erik@c134006.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 02:06.53 | raster | letalone voip + anything else at the same time |
| 02:06.54 | DocScrutinizer | yup |
| 02:07.02 | raster | (video conf, browsing while doing voip etc.) |
| 02:07.09 | raster | so u need wifi or 3g for that |
| 02:07.19 | raster | do you have any wimax in .de? |
| 02:07.25 | DocScrutinizer | nope |
| 02:07.29 | raster | aaah |
| 02:07.35 | DocScrutinizer | some test areas |
| 02:07.44 | raster | so no commercial providers |
| 02:07.58 | raster | ok i guess .au is ahead there |
| 02:08.10 | raster | sydney and melbourne have unwired |
| 02:08.11 | DocScrutinizer | they are |
| 02:08.14 | raster | (wimax) |
| 02:09.22 | DocScrutinizer | raster: though we?üll get wimax all over the country during next 2 Y |
| 02:09.56 | DocScrutinizer | Merkel order ;) |
| 02:09.57 | SpeedEvil | and wimax is infinite bandwidth for everyone. |
| 02:10.10 | DocScrutinizer | yeah sure |
| 02:10.18 | raster | even unwired isnt cheap |
| 02:10.19 | DocScrutinizer | ;) |
| 02:10.33 | raster | 6g/mo on "3" (telco, 3g) is 49/mo |
| 02:10.35 | SpeedEvil | though in principle steered beams could help some with that. |
| 02:10.44 | SpeedEvil | And 60GHz helps lots, lots more |
| 02:10.52 | raster | unwired for the same is 39.95 |
| 02:10.56 | raster | ($AU) |
| 02:11.09 | raster | and thats also limited to 512/128kbit |
| 02:11.18 | raster | so technically i'd say the telco on 3g offers a better deal |
| 02:11.36 | DocScrutinizer | yup |
| 02:11.46 | SpeedEvil | uk isn't too sucky. |
| 02:11.51 | raster | unless u are a heavy user |
| 02:11.51 | DocScrutinizer | if it's hspa |
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| 02:12.12 | raster | $100/mo, 30gb 1024/256 |
| 02:12.13 | SpeedEvil | 'up to' 8M ADSL, 30G quotas/mo are quite common - 15-20 quid. |
| 02:12.18 | raster | if u pay for large amounts |
| 02:12.27 | DocScrutinizer | well some 5GB limit here as well |
| 02:12.31 | raster | but still not as fast as 3g |
| 02:12.42 | DocScrutinizer | for the 25bucks plan |
| 02:12.47 | raster | aaah |
| 02:12.53 | raster | yeah - limtied here too |
| 02:13.22 | DocScrutinizer | (on 3G that is) |
| 02:13.33 | raster | the 30g unwired plan at 1mbit down eur 50/mo isnt too bad |
| 02:13.39 | DocScrutinizer | no limits on DSL |
| 02:13.40 | raster | and they throttle you to 32kbit if u go over the 30g |
| 02:13.48 | raster | (this is wimax) |
| 02:14.34 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 02:14.37 | raster | anyway... seems to me 3g data is "competititve" |
| 02:14.38 | SpeedEvil | This IS SPARTA! |
| 02:14.43 | raster | HAHAHAHA |
| 02:16.50 | DocScrutinizer | well raster, you'll need 3G hspa AND wimax I guess |
| 02:17.43 | raster | wimax is a bit of a problem atm as its not full of wimax chips |
| 02:17.50 | raster | not many of them |
| 02:17.53 | DocScrutinizer | yeah |
| 02:17.57 | DocScrutinizer | :-/ |
| 02:18.00 | raster | and not many providers |
| 02:18.09 | raster | better that maybe for a 2nd or 3rd gen device? |
| 02:18.16 | DocScrutinizer | hmm |
| 02:18.21 | SpeedEvil | and widely varying band allocations as I understand it |
| 02:18.24 | raster | (unless some wimax provider steps up and wants to buy like a million units!) |
| 02:18.27 | DocScrutinizer | won't be a showstopper |
| 02:18.43 | DocScrutinizer | but we should mention it's on our road |
| 02:18.51 | raster | yeah |
| 02:19.03 | raster | once wimax settles down to a known quantity |
| 02:19.17 | raster | when either there are enough wimax providers around in major countries |
| 02:19.22 | raster | and a known sane set of bands to support |
| 02:19.34 | raster | or until some wimax provider turns up to buy a lot of units |
| 02:19.35 | raster | :) |
| 02:19.35 | SpeedEvil | or a flexible chipset that can do all bands |
| 02:19.44 | raster | SpeedEvil: thats really hard |
| 02:19.48 | SpeedEvil | I know |
| 02:19.56 | DocScrutinizer | wonders which chipset N810-wimax-edition is using |
| 02:20.39 | DocScrutinizer | universal radio, yeah! |
| 02:20.57 | DocScrutinizer | one can dream |
| 02:22.09 | SpeedEvil | raster: http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/cc1101.html (not directly relevant alas) |
| 02:22.14 | raster | the problem is regulations therte |
| 02:22.26 | raster | as well as simply needing a lot of "cpu grunt" to do such a universal radio |
| 02:22.45 | DocScrutinizer | yup |
| 02:23.01 | DocScrutinizer | I know |
| 02:23.04 | rooly | hmm |
| 02:23.24 | rooly | i've got a school orginization that's looking to do a low-power software-based radio |
| 02:23.32 | rooly | don't know what the status is |
| 02:23.37 | DocScrutinizer | can't get cert for GSM wit UR |
| 02:23.38 | rooly | shall i find out? |
| 02:23.43 | SpeedEvil | low power software radio is easy |
| 02:23.53 | SpeedEvil | low power high bandwidth software radio is not easy. |
| 02:24.54 | SpeedEvil | there are 'software radios' that are basically a HF (~10MHZ) reciever that digitises a 4KHz band, and then does FFT and stuff on it to recieve digital radio signals at a few tens of bits/second. |
| 02:25.04 | DocScrutinizer | rooly: asking won't hurt ;) |
| 02:25.34 | SpeedEvil | that takes a few orders of magnitude less CPU than doing GSM or 3G or wimax in software. |
| 02:26.11 | SpeedEvil | quite cool actually - some of the modes - psk31 for example - 31bps can get across continents on a watt |
| 02:26.36 | SpeedEvil | and is fine - with compression - for keyboard-keyboard |
| 02:27.25 | DocScrutinizer | that's really cool |
| 02:28.24 | DocScrutinizer | though, always depend on which 2 continents involved ;) |
| 02:28.40 | SpeedEvil | :) |
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| 02:32.50 | DocScrutinizer | wonders why no one considered building a new iridium mobile. those motorola are collector's priced meanwhile |
| 02:33.04 | SpeedEvil | you can get phones |
| 02:33.09 | SpeedEvil | new ones |
| 02:33.13 | DocScrutinizer | actually? |
| 02:33.33 | SpeedEvil | also emergency devices |
| 02:33.36 | SpeedEvil | http://international.findmespot.com/ |
| 02:33.48 | DocScrutinizer | wow, didnt notice |
| 02:34.57 | KenYoung | I hope all the Iridiums come crashing down. |
| 02:34.58 | SpeedEvil | http://satphone.co.uk/ |
| 02:35.04 | SpeedEvil | KenYoung: why? |
| 02:35.09 | SpeedEvil | flare? |
| 02:35.19 | KenYoung | They're very bad for radio astronomy. |
| 02:35.30 | SpeedEvil | what - hte freq? |
| 02:35.35 | DocScrutinizer | hmm, ok |
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| 02:36.29 | KenYoung | THey operate outside of the protected bands, but they are so powerful, and in the *sky*, that the saturate the receivers at places line Arecibo Observatory. |
| 02:36.43 | SpeedEvil | of course |
| 02:36.55 | SpeedEvil | band filters don't help a lot when your source is +180dB |
| 02:37.02 | KenYoung | Exactly. |
| 02:37.10 | DocScrutinizer | yup |
| 02:37.45 | DocScrutinizer | like military sonar for the whales |
| 02:38.07 | SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: how do they fit them with it? :) |
| 02:38.39 | DocScrutinizer | :) |
| 02:39.34 | *** part/#openmoko rooly (n=CAC@gilmore-23.telapex.com) |
| 02:42.24 | raster | SpeedEvil: ti might be a good call for a general tranciever, but the problem is implementing al the software radio at all |
| 02:42.47 | raster | and rea,lly - legal matters mean in the ned u probably are just better off getting a "black box" 2g/3g module |
| 02:43.22 | SpeedEvil | Interesting - http://store.satphone.co.uk/Catalog/Thrane-110-and-100-and-Accessories-formerly-Nera-WorldPro-1010-and-1000/TT-Explorer-110-ex-Nera-World-Pro-1010-BGAN-Terminal USB sat-modem - 384kbps, admittedly $2000 and $10/meg |
| 02:45.48 | raster | OUCH! |
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| 02:57.45 | DukeOfURL | I've installed SHR, and the neo works great! I'm trying to dwnload calypso_moko11.m0, but my file system is full. Is there anything I can delete? |
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| 03:00.34 | DocScrutinizer | use uSD-image! |
| 03:00.47 | mmontour | Neo1973 |
| 03:00.56 | DocScrutinizer | ooops |
| 03:02.03 | mmontour | DukeOfURL: do you have a microSD card? |
| 03:02.23 | DukeOfURL | yes, and I successfully downloaded to it. thanks. |
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| 03:15.46 | rooly | w00t |
| 03:15.52 | rooly | managed to aquire me some wifi |
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| 04:05.07 | srj | Hi. Which is the best list to put up suggestions/questions for Google Summer Of Code? |
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| 04:30.50 | rooly | need answer quick |
| 04:30.50 | rooly | does gpl allow for commercial use |
| 04:31.03 | KenYoung | I think so. |
| 04:31.54 | KenYoung | But there are restrictions, of course. You can sell gpl'd code, but you must make the source available for free. |
| 04:32.37 | KenYoung | You can obviously use it in a commercial enterprise. |
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| 04:32.48 | rooly | kk |
| 04:32.50 | *** part/#openmoko rooly (n=CAC@12.151.197.98) |
| 04:32.55 | KenYoung | You can sell support for gpl'd code. |
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| 04:39.07 | raster | u can sell gpl'd code too |
| 04:39.13 | raster | nothng wrong with that |
| 04:39.29 | raster | ooh wait |
| 04:39.33 | raster | u said that already |
| 04:39.54 | KenYoung | Yes, but it means more coming from you. |
| 04:40.03 | raster | ahhaha no no |
| 04:40.08 | raster | i just saw your last line |
| 04:40.12 | raster | i didnt scroll back yet |
| 04:40.25 | *** join/#openmoko Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 04:40.33 | raster | you are under no requirement to public gpl code or patches |
| 04:40.55 | raster | you ONLY need to provide them to your customer (or well offer them to the customer for at most the cost of media and shipping) |
| 04:41.06 | raster | the customer is free to do what they like with the code tho |
| 04:41.09 | raster | after that |
| 04:41.36 | raster | you are not allowed to restrict what the customer can do with the code after that beyond what the gpl already does |
| 04:44.19 | KenYoung | What's the status with Tivo? Is the consensus that they are following the letter of gpl, while obviously violating the spirit? |
| 04:45.05 | cjb | yes. |
| 04:45.05 | cjb | (to be specific, GPLv2) |
| 04:45.05 | raster | yup |
| 04:45.05 | cjb | they're obviously not following the letter of GPLv3 |
| 04:45.22 | raster | the letter of the gpl really isnt that "open" |
| 04:45.38 | raster | it doesnt require you give up that much - if you structure things correctly |
| 04:45.57 | cjb | this is where we get to raster's crazy ideas on linking? :) |
| 04:46.12 | raster | ie put everything into closed kernel moduels that dont use any other kernel infra that gpl |
| 04:46.19 | raster | (basically nvidia-style) |
| 04:46.30 | raster | or put it into userspace and only release small kernel bits as gpl |
| 04:46.30 | cjb | judges look at intent, so if it's obvious that you did something *just* to get around the GPL, you lose |
| 04:46.33 | raster | and avoid gpl libs |
| 04:46.34 | raster | etc. |
| 04:46.59 | raster | cjb: depends on jurisdiction |
| 04:47.09 | raster | there is a grey area |
| 04:47.22 | raster | there is a very EXPLICIT line between kernel and userspace |
| 04:47.31 | raster | and between glibc etc. |
| 04:47.36 | raster | and apps |
| 04:47.47 | cjb | those are codified in the license |
| 04:47.53 | raster | yes |
| 04:47.56 | cjb | there is an exception for system software |
| 04:47.57 | raster | thus the "explicit line" |
| 04:48.02 | cjb | ah, right |
| 04:48.05 | raster | that is a problem there |
| 04:48.12 | raster | what is "system software" |
| 04:48.13 | KenYoung | Can new releases of code that was origionally gplv2 be released under glpv3, thereby preventing bad actors from being able to keep up with the current community version? |
| 04:48.17 | raster | that is fuzzy grey land |
| 04:48.29 | cjb | KenYoung: yup, usually |
| 04:48.30 | raster | as is shared memory |
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| 04:48.31 | raster | eg |
| 04:48.44 | cjb | KenYoung: but there's nothing stopping the bad actors from just using the old release |
| 04:48.44 | raster | if u have an external gpl process u talk to |
| 04:49.00 | cjb | KenYoung: so, most of the GNU projects (emacs, gdb, maybe even gcc?) are now GPLv3 |
| 04:49.08 | raster | if you share "significant complex data structures" |
| 04:49.13 | raster | then you mayaswell be linking |
| 04:49.16 | raster | thus gpl applies |
| 04:49.24 | cjb | raster: sure. that's where I think intent comes in. |
| 04:49.28 | raster | but wehat is "significant complex...." |
| 04:49.37 | raster | i can find the exact words int he gpl - but its something like that |
| 04:49.48 | cjb | if you can't look a judge in the eye and say you weren't trying to cheat the GPL, you're probably going to lose a lawsuit |
| 04:49.56 | cjb | raster: I think you're probably being overly legalistic |
| 04:50.05 | raster | i am |
| 04:50.08 | raster | hell |
| 04:50.13 | raster | i believe in the spirit of the gpl |
| 04:50.17 | raster | and i am all for followin g it |
| 04:50.21 | cjb | but maybe that's just my experience with lawyers. very few of them just look at a license text and make decisions in a vacuum. |
| 04:50.30 | raster | screw arguing over meanings of words |
| 04:50.52 | raster | but - the problem is that in the end it comes down to a court and legalese |
| 04:50.58 | cjb | they're going to say "and what were you thinking when you decided to make a shim to allow GPL access without linking explicitly?" and you're going to say "um." and they're going to say "you lose." :) |
| 04:51.10 | cjb | true enough. |
| 04:51.30 | raster | well thats where i'd be citing examples |
| 04:51.46 | raster | "nvidia has done it - and despite controversy - no one has demanded they open up" |
| 04:51.48 | raster | blah blah |
| 04:51.52 | raster | not just intent |
| 04:52.03 | raster | but the other side of that |
| 04:52.04 | raster | too |
| 04:52.08 | raster | its a nasty world |
| 04:52.14 | raster | i'd rather never even talk to a lawyer |
| 04:52.29 | raster | just get the hell on with writing cool stuff |
| 04:58.52 | cjb | raster: while it's true that nvidia has never been sued, the people who would sue them claim that it's just because they aren't interested in doing that, and Greg K-H says that every lawyer he's talked to thinks that nVidia is violating the license. |
| 04:59.01 | cjb | the absence of a lawsuit does not prove compliance |
| 04:59.14 | raster | sure |
| 04:59.18 | raster | dont say it does |
| 04:59.22 | raster | if they were sued |
| 04:59.25 | raster | and nvidia won |
| 04:59.30 | raster | then it'd definitely prove |
| 04:59.33 | Sargun | needs to upgrade to 2008.12... |
| 04:59.39 | raster | as an actual test case would show it |
| 04:59.48 | raster | but in the absence of one... |
| 05:00.10 | raster | one can only judge intent of the license holders by their actions |
| 05:00.17 | cjb | in the absence, we have no evidence either way whether what they're doing is legal |
| 05:00.31 | raster | being fully aware of nvidia's efforts and not doing anything implies intent on their part |
| 05:00.33 | raster | intent goes both ways |
| 05:00.34 | raster | :) |
| 05:00.39 | cjb | I think Linus has gone on record saying that he thinks nVidia is violating the license. That's his action. |
| 05:00.49 | raster | hmm |
| 05:00.54 | raster | i swear he went on record the other way |
| 05:01.03 | cjb | He's also gone on record saying he doesn't believe in lawsuits, but that just means he doesn't see the point in wasting lots of money. |
| 05:01.05 | raster | with "binary kernel modules are ok" |
| 05:01.05 | cjb | oh, huh |
| 05:01.13 | cjb | that doesn't seem like something he'd say to me |
| 05:01.20 | cjb | but I haven't talked to him about it |
| 05:01.24 | raster | i could have sworn he has |
| 05:01.40 | cjb | why bother implementing EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL(), if the license is irrelevant? |
| 05:01.42 | raster | which is why i'm just taking the position of "intent" there |
| 05:01.52 | raster | because by DEFAULT he thinks its ok |
| 05:01.53 | raster | BUT |
| 05:02.14 | raster | there are those that disagree and want to be very explicit about it and keep the likes of nvidia out of using their bits of kernel code |
| 05:02.25 | raster | so that is a technical solution to a disagreement on policy problem |
| 05:02.25 | cjb | mmm |
| 05:02.28 | raster | as best i know |
| 05:02.51 | raster | ie the default is "you can use the symbol in a binary module... UNLESS its explicitly marked GPL" |
| 05:02.59 | KenYoung | Why is it that these graphics hardware companies are so especially secretive? Intel doesn't try to hide the x86 architecture, as far as I am aware. Ditto every other general processor manufacturer I know of. |
| 05:03.04 | raster | and that got added aft6er there was much kerfuffle about it |
| 05:03.10 | cjb | KenYoung: there are several theories: |
| 05:03.11 | raster | with linux disagreeing with others etc. |
| 05:03.31 | cjb | 1. we'd see how they cheat on artificial benchmarks with special cases in their drivers, and then they'd look dumber than usual |
| 05:03.34 | raster | i personalyl think nvidia should just have open drivers - all closed drivers do is create pain |
| 05:03.41 | raster | i am not into "open for open sake" |
| 05:03.45 | cjb | 2. they license code in their drivers from other companies who are more secretive than they are |
| 05:03.52 | raster | i'm into open because its frankly just a better way of "doing business" |
| 05:03.55 | raster | less hassle |
| 05:03.56 | raster | less pain |
| 05:03.59 | raster | less overhead |
| 05:04.06 | cjb | raster: yeah, with AMD going the open way, nVidia's excuses are looking pretty tired |
| 05:04.13 | raster | yup |
| 05:04.20 | raster | so dont get me wrong |
| 05:04.25 | raster | i'm not "Defending" closed stuff |
| 05:04.30 | cjb | yeah, I understand |
| 05:04.52 | cjb | the other complication with nVidia is that it's not like Linus owns the copyright, the contributors do |
| 05:04.53 | raster | i just think that the line in the sand - given intent, license terms, fuzzy bits of licenses etc. lies in a certain spot |
| 05:05.04 | cjb | so Greg K-H says he thinks it's illegal, and he owns a bunch of driver core |
| 05:05.08 | raster | i dont think people should totally take advantage of that though |
| 05:05.11 | raster | and push it to its limits |
| 05:05.20 | raster | there is fuzzy land and there is a spirit to uphold |
| 05:05.23 | raster | so uphold it |
| 05:05.36 | raster | though one thing i do disagree with is GPL libs |
| 05:05.48 | raster | here is a shared lib offering a public api someone is WANTING you to use |
| 05:05.49 | KenYoung | cjb, So it's sortof like battery lifetimes, diaggonal measures of screens etc - the whole industry lies about what they provide, and all are afraid of being the first to market truthfully. |
| 05:05.56 | raster | (eg qt before it was LGPL) |
| 05:06.00 | cjb | KenYoung: yes, this is one element |
| 05:06.05 | raster | thats a bit where i think there is a very clear dividing line |
| 05:06.14 | raster | and a documented API to divide it with |
| 05:06.18 | cjb | KenYoung: note that this is not an argument against open specs, just open drivers |
| 05:06.28 | cjb | so AMD has been publishing open specs and letting Xorg people write open drivers |
| 05:06.32 | cjb | and that's working out fairly well |
| 05:06.48 | raster | cjb: well therte was a fair bit of lag to begin with |
| 05:06.50 | cjb | I don't actually care if their driver is full of secret sauce if they'll tell me how to program the device |
| 05:06.52 | raster | that was not good |
| 05:06.55 | cjb | yeah |
| 05:07.03 | raster | ie from psecs being open to them actually having real impact on drivers |
| 05:07.22 | raster | but given the driver core is now up to date - it may be better in future |
| 05:07.30 | raster | ie new chips, new specs, and support goes in much faster |
| 05:08.22 | cjb | yeah, Intel usually pushes driver support for new chips before the chips are released lately |
| 05:08.33 | cjb | Via is doing similarly |
| 05:08.37 | cjb | (I mean video drivers) |
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| 05:09.28 | raster | thats all good |
| 05:09.38 | raster | nvidia are just not playing ball |
| 05:09.47 | raster | though there are some problems with open specs |
| 05:09.54 | raster | some chips - implement ALL features |
| 05:09.58 | raster | patentend and more |
| 05:10.10 | raster | BUT the vendor only pays for the patents on the "higher end cards" |
| 05:10.36 | raster | and the driver is what polices the enabling/disabling of them |
| 05:10.38 | raster | not silicon |
| 05:11.08 | raster | and thus opening up specs fully would mean violating patent agreements and costing possibly a large chunk of cash to the vendor |
| 05:11.22 | cjb | oh, yes, indeed! |
| 05:11.28 | cjb | there is a good example of this in nVidia |
| 05:11.44 | raster | thus i can understand why a vendor might go "open specs/drivers/ hell no!" |
| 05:11.53 | raster | they designed their way into a corner and just cant be open |
| 05:12.00 | cjb | the nVidia Quadro cards have features that are available on Geforce cards, but locked in the driver software when it finds a Geforce PCI ID |
| 05:12.18 | cjb | so the nouveau driver, today, can turn a Geforce card into a Quadro, for at least some of the features |
| 05:12.27 | cjb | this is another reason they avoid opening up drivers, yet :) |
| 05:12.30 | cjb | s/yet/yes/ |
| 05:12.39 | raster | aah yes |
| 05:12.40 | cjb | raster: here's the Linus quote: http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0312.0/0670.html |
| 05:12.46 | raster | just ot keep their premium cards.. premium |
| 05:12.53 | raster | but thats something solvable |
| 05:12.59 | cjb | in short, he thinks that binary kernel modules must be GPL *unless* they were written without Linux in mind, and then bolted on |
| 05:13.03 | raster | the problem is when its someone elses patents they have had to license... |
| 05:13.10 | raster | when they no longer are the ones in control |
| 05:13.31 | cjb | that's an easy excuse to give, but the fact that AMD is opening up so much shows that it's not a big deal in reality |
| 05:13.49 | cjb | are we really to believe that nVidia licensed huge amounts of code, but Intel and AMD/ATI didn't? |
| 05:15.56 | raster | hmm |
| 05:16.03 | raster | so actually linux does say binary moduels are ok |
| 05:16.19 | cjb | it's an interesting argument, though |
| 05:16.21 | raster | its just required to be clearly not aderivative |
| 05:16.28 | cjb | he says that if you aren't a derived work, the GPL is irrelevant |
| 05:16.29 | raster | in is view |
| 05:16.32 | raster | that shows his intent |
| 05:16.39 | cjb | right |
| 05:16.44 | raster | or documents his intent and helps clarify some gray |
| 05:16.53 | cjb | sure |
| 05:17.00 | raster | thats the real problem - the gray bits |
| 05:17.11 | cjb | his "intent" can't affect what it and isn't a derived work, though |
| 05:17.23 | cjb | the GPL doesn't get to make a claim about that; you have to go back to copyright law in general |
| 05:17.25 | raster | oh sure |
| 05:17.26 | cjb | and yeah, it's very fuzzy |
| 05:17.41 | raster | but his intent as to what constitutes dervied |
| 05:17.50 | cjb | he doesn't get to have an intent on that |
| 05:17.59 | raster | one could argue the nvidia drivers are shared between osx, windows and linux |
| 05:18.00 | cjb | it is outside the scope of his power as someone licensing software |
| 05:18.13 | cjb | right. I'm pretty sure that's how he feels about nvidia. |
| 05:18.17 | raster | they designed them originally for other os's but ported them with a open "shim" to interface to the kernel |
| 05:18.20 | raster | but its a gray land |
| 05:18.24 | raster | did they really do that? |
| 05:18.41 | cjb | they certainly had a windows driver which they later ported to linux |
| 05:18.52 | raster | until it actually goes to court and is decided one way or another |
| 05:18.57 | raster | we will never know for sure |
| 05:19.11 | cjb | yup |
| 05:19.12 | raster | also the question is |
| 05:19.16 | raster | if it starts as a windows driver |
| 05:19.19 | KenYoung | This area of law will eventually make the Talmud look like a quick read. |
| 05:19.27 | raster | but over time "assumes" more about linux when in "linux mode" |
| 05:19.40 | raster | and begins to look like it is designed "for linux" |
| 05:19.53 | raster | just by virtue of growing into that position... does it then become a derivative? |
| 05:20.17 | cjb | raster: yes, that's the question |
| 05:20.25 | raster | i'd just rather we never had the whole problem |
| 05:20.31 | cjb | I suspect one judge would rule one way and a different judge would rule the other way |
| 05:20.31 | raster | and just had bloddy open drivers |
| 05:20.37 | cjb | this tells me that it's a dangerous business to be in |
| 05:20.38 | raster | and everyone got on with doing cool stuff |
| 05:20.39 | raster | :) |
| 05:20.51 | raster | yup |
| 05:20.51 | cjb | and that you should really be on the side of not probably breaking the law |
| 05:20.53 | cjb | :) |
| 05:21.07 | raster | dangerous. its a risk. the question is - how do you bet your money on the odds |
| 05:21.08 | raster | really |
| 05:21.17 | raster | what are nvidia protecting |
| 05:21.28 | raster | is what they are protecting worth the risk? |
| 05:21.49 | cjb | and the lost sales for Linux users |
| 05:22.07 | cjb | at one of the Red Hat Summits they had Intel, AMD, and nVidia reps in the same place |
| 05:22.12 | cjb | and the nVidia dude got booed out of the rooom |
| 05:22.46 | cjb | and the people who go to those conferences tend to be CIOs, not just college kids. |
| 05:23.09 | raster | yeah |
| 05:23.43 | raster | but maybe nvidia go "really - we dont care about linux. the only peolpe we do care about are already happy in the linux world - and until they say otherwise.. we just dont care" |
| 05:23.48 | raster | and thats their business decision |
| 05:24.09 | raster | i do know that... for me. nvidia are on a blacklist for making hardware |
| 05:24.15 | raster | nvidia have an SoC of their own |
| 05:24.25 | raster | arm core with nvidia 3d core |
| 05:24.30 | raster | and i wont touch it with a barge pole |
| 05:24.37 | raster | not even going to read its specs. |
| 05:24.44 | cjb | that SoC has OpenGL-ES, too, which is weird |
| 05:25.04 | cjb | if you're going to put an nVidia core on a chip, you might as well make it do actual GL |
| 05:25.06 | raster | nvidia's policy of pretty much being a closed block puts them on my "dont bother" list |
| 05:25.13 | cjb | yup |
| 05:25.16 | raster | gles is indeed a bit bizarre |
| 05:25.22 | raster | i'm not totally happy with it |
| 05:26.07 | raster | but nvidia's policies on driver openness influence potential customers |
| 05:26.29 | raster | mind u.. i'm not happy with imgtec either. |
| 05:26.35 | cjb | yeah, I think so too. but they probably don't realize what they're missing. |
| 05:27.56 | raster | that's their problem |
| 05:28.03 | raster | their bottom line will be the one suffering in the end |
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| 07:30.00 | PaulFertser | cjb: Hey :) |
| 07:30.12 | PaulFertser | cjb: i have something to say about openness of AMD/ATI. |
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| 07:35.17 | PaulFertser | cjb: This mailing list post by one of the core radeonhd developers show how "open" AMD/ATI are now (and that's more than a year and a half since they decided to provide the specs): http://lists.opensuse.org/radeonhd/2009-03/msg00112.html |
| 07:38.00 | PaulFertser | Looks like stupid USA software patent legislation contributes more than anything else to the shit going on with "opening" the specs. |
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| 08:17.36 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 08:31.53 | methril|work | good morning |
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| 09:35.47 | Zoup | how can i append to QI when booting from nand? |
| 09:37.43 | lindi- | Zoup: append to qi? |
| 09:41.04 | Zoup | lindi-: as in " glamo_mci.sd_max_clk=15000000 " issue |
| 09:41.31 | lindi- | Zoup: so you want to pass parameters to linux? |
| 09:41.43 | Zoup | lindi-: yep, thats right way to say that |
| 09:42.14 | Zoup | lindi-: its passing to linux indeed :) any idea how its possible using QI? |
| 09:42.30 | Zoup | lindi-: since its not SD boot, /boot/append ignored |
| 09:42.33 | lindi- | Zoup: i haven't read qi source yet, got alink? |
| 09:43.00 | Zoup | lindi-: sure |
| 09:43.17 | Zoup | lindi-: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qi, http://git.openmoko.org/?p=qi.git;a=summary |
| 09:44.01 | lindi- | git clone git://git.openmoko.org/git/qi.git |
| 09:44.04 | lindi- | yeah.. |
| 09:44.04 | PaulFertser | Zoup: only by modifying the Qi source i guess |
| 09:44.52 | Zoup | PaulFertser: i see, thanks :) |
| 09:45.00 | PaulFertser | Zoup: or you can boot the kernel from sd, but pass root= to use nand rootfs. |
| 09:45.15 | Zoup | i wonder why glamo_mci.sd_max_clk issues happens on some SDs |
| 09:45.50 | PaulFertser | Zoup: some people reported that sd issues is a result of gsm interference. Does it look like your case? |
| 09:46.35 | Zoup | PaulFertser: its always working with some Sandisk 4GB |
| 09:48.42 | PaulFertser | Zoup: there's another idea which was unconfirmed but looks like a possible explanation: laptop cardreaders use higher voltages than FR. The FR's driver asks the card about the minimal voltage and uses that, unlike sdhci. |
| 09:49.30 | Zoup | PaulFertser: can you see any software fix to this issue ? |
| 09:49.44 | lindi- | PaulFertser: Zoup: i read the source and it seems to be the case |
| 09:49.52 | lindi- | that you need to modify source |
| 09:50.18 | PaulFertser | Zoup: if it was really the case, it could be easily fixed to use a higher voltage (add another kernel parameter). But so far nobody has confirmed it can actually help. |
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| 09:50.44 | PaulFertser | Zoup: moreover when GPS is turned on, the maximum clock is lowered drastically, by 8 times iirc. |
| 09:50.57 | Zoup | PaulFertser: i see... |
| 09:54.07 | shellevil | isn't it just the slope of the clock? |
| 09:54.14 | shellevil | the drive strength |
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| 09:56.32 | PaulFertser | shellevil: it's not, read the source |
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| 10:13.57 | proyvind | what's the current status of openmoko usability? |
| 10:15.00 | henk | proyvind: openmoko? do you mean the OM-distribution? |
| 10:15.10 | PaulFertser | proyvind: toy for hackers, imho |
| 10:16.39 | shellevil | k, I've not been reading FR source - not having one PaulFertse |
| 10:16.45 | proyvind | well, I was first of all thinking more like if I'll order a neo freerunner now, will it satisfy my primary need for calendar, alarm clock, calling and sms? :o) |
| 10:16.49 | shellevil | no |
| 10:17.05 | shellevil | well - maybe - if you pick _just_ the rright image, and play witth it a lot |
| 10:17.15 | shellevil | and if you don't have buzz problems |
| 10:17.19 | shellevil | but basically - no |
| 10:17.23 | PaulFertser | shellevil: you can use http://git.openmoko.org web interface to see glamo-mci driver source, it's quite easy to understand. |
| 10:17.26 | henk | proyvind: calendar and alarm clock are not the problem, calling and sms are. |
| 10:17.33 | shellevil | PaulFertser: thanks |
| 10:17.42 | proyvind | so it's not usable for sms and calling¿? |
| 10:18.00 | henk | proyvind: not reliably. and not in an acceptable quality. |
| 10:18.15 | PaulFertser | proyvind: for calling you'll need a hardware buzz fix sooner or later. I guess sms works mostly too. |
| 10:18.36 | PaulFertser | proyvind: that said, i use it as my only cell phone from November. |
| 10:18.42 | proyvind | k |
| 10:18.52 | PaulFertser | proyvind: but i don't care much if it doesn't work. |
| 10:18.58 | jesperj | hardware buzz fix? |
| 10:19.05 | jesperj | what do you mean by that? |
| 10:19.07 | PaulFertser | Oh come on. |
| 10:19.27 | PaulFertser | jesperj: change one 0402 R and solder a big cap near it. |
| 10:20.00 | henk | jesperj: http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/GSM_EMI_noise/ |
| 10:20.07 | proyvind | so I will be able to communicate with the rest of the world then |
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| 10:20.25 | jesperj | proyvind: not reliably he just said |
| 10:20.40 | jesperj | thanks PaulFertser and henk |
| 10:21.13 | proyvind | reliability is for pussies |
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| 10:22.18 | PaulFertser | proyvind: ack. Or for those addicted to things, not understanding that things doesn't matter. |
| 10:23.10 | PaulFertser | (in the context of regular phone usage, of course; i'm not talking about life-critical applications, where reliablity is a necessety) |
| 10:24.24 | proyvind | yeah |
| 10:28.10 | proyvind | hm |
| 10:28.29 | proyvind | but I can use the qtopia stack on the freerunner to have a fully working cell phone, right? |
| 10:29.24 | henk | you will still have the hardware shortcomings... |
| 10:29.49 | henk | and qtopia is not a "good choice" imho |
| 10:30.04 | henk | proyvind: afaik it does not use x11, so most applications won't run |
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| 10:30.26 | proyvind | henk: yeah, but it would still be working pretty much as a "regular phone" I mean |
| 10:30.33 | proyvind | hardware shortcomings other than buzz? |
| 10:30.59 | henk | i'm not sure if there are others... |
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| 10:32.18 | shellevil | bass is poor with external headphones |
| 10:32.44 | PaulFertser | proyvind: the case that requires enabling quite harsh echo suppression. |
| 10:33.31 | PaulFertser | proyvind: very slow SD _and_ video memory bus. Coupled with VGA screen the performance plain sucks. |
| 10:33.32 | Daramarak | I use the Freerunner with the OM2008.12 platform. I haven't been bothered from buzz, and has reliably sent sms and placed and received calls, without any problems since last september. |
| 10:33.59 | PaulFertser | Daramarak: you're not supposed to hear buzz. It's the other side who usually complains. |
| 10:34.07 | PaulFertser | Daramarak: and it depends on the band and transmit power. |
| 10:34.19 | PaulFertser | Daramarak: how many times that needs to be told? |
| 10:35.17 | PaulFertser | proyvind: oh, and wifi firmware really sucks. Not reliable and incompatible with many APs. |
| 10:35.33 | shellevil | PaulFertser: hav e you confiirmed that buzz is a problem on all bands? |
| 10:36.08 | PaulFertser | proyvind: calypso gsm modem has a "recamping" bug, that is workarounded by disabling deep sleep mode (hurts battery life). |
| 10:36.12 | Daramarak | PaulFertser: If I am not bothered by it, (which means that I haven't had any complains). It goes to show that some use it without any problems. But you MIGHT experience some issues. |
| 10:37.16 | PaulFertser | shellevil: ask DocScrutinizer or write an e-mail to Dieter. I'm almost sure that it's possible to have buzz on any band given you're in a bad enough conditions where transmit power has to be really high. |
| 10:38.09 | PaulFertser | Daramarak: you can't rely on the phone if it will make communication hard or impossible in some not-that-ideal conditions (read far away from towers, or shielded etc). |
| 10:38.35 | shellevil | PaulFertser: just wondering - as some carriers use only one band, and that'd be a tidy explanation as to why no buzz. |
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| 10:39.26 | PaulFertser | shellevil: i prefer another explanation: good coverage for some/most users. |
| 10:42.01 | shellevil | that works too |
| 10:42.02 | PaulFertser | shellevil: i think it's easy enough to test: get an unfixed freerunner, establish a call, make sure sound is transfered, start to shield FR thus forcing it to ramp up power. Monitor %EM output via ssh (to know which band is used). Monitor sound on the other side. So far i heard no reports of this simple experiment, so i guess it's reasonable to ignore those who said that buzz doesn't exist on some carriers. |
| 10:42.31 | Daramarak | PaulFertser: Well, it isn't that black and white, given poor conditions any phone might misbehave. I live in a country where coverage might be very poor due to the terrain, and my FR performs better than some commercial phones, while some outperforms mine. It is a matter of degrees of reliability. |
| 10:43.37 | PaulFertser | Daramarak: it's a matter of stupidity of TPE EEs, who failed to test it in the first place and failed to properly fix it (i very much hope that Doc's fix of adding 3 beads in A8 will work) promptly. |
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| 10:45.03 | Daramarak | PaulFertser: I agree. |
| 10:46.30 | PaulFertser | shellevil: but really, why nobody's tried that so far? I think to try it myself i'll need to desolder wire from the cap but i can test only 2 bands and i don't know yet how to force it to use only one of those (disable switching temporarily). |
| 10:47.36 | shellevil | pau: I think you _drastically_ overestimate the number of people willing to try even simple things with hardware. |
| 10:47.42 | PaulFertser | shellevil: moreover i had complaints from the other side when i was outside of the city, so i see no point in proving it (except to prove that the experiment is a good test). |
| 10:47.47 | shellevil | For some reason, people seem unwilling to do sane stuff |
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| 10:49.08 | PaulFertser | shellevil: getting some aluminium foil (used for cooking) is easy and using it to shield the whole device is not hard too. I guess i'll leave that to those who says he has no problems with buzz (as i clearly had). |
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| 10:52.17 | PaulFertser | shellevil: i've read about so many cool hackers that i just get obsessed when i hear questionable information from people who can't even understand a simple sh script. |
| 10:52.50 | PaulFertser | shellevil: i'm not a cool hacker myself, but at least i usually can read! |
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| 10:53.35 | SpeedEvil | I can only explain it as people are unwilling to venture outside of their area of expertise. |
| 10:54.01 | PaulFertser | shellevil: and to me it'd be much better to communicate with those from whom i can learn. |
| 10:54.47 | SpeedEvil | are the tx and rx buffers the same? |
| 10:54.48 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 10:54.50 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: i'm not an expert in anything. What should i do now, lay down and moan until i die of food/water deprivation? |
| 10:54.56 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 10:55.53 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: or probably i should stop reading and writing because my native language sucks and my english sucks even more? |
| 10:56.40 | SpeedEvil | if so, the problem reduces to send 64 bytes from the serial interface - unless there is not 64 bytes within a timeout, then send that. Then monitor for a nak - if you get a nak, tell the hardware to resend the packet. If you get an OK, move on. |
| 10:56.42 | SpeedEvil | meh |
| 10:56.55 | SpeedEvil | hates doing that |
| 10:57.35 | SpeedEvil | If you carry on learning stuff, it can't be bad I figure. |
| 10:58.09 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: i'll never be able to ride like a real sportsman, should i stop cycling then? |
| 10:58.27 | nullix | i have a stupid question : http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FreeRunner_unable_to_work_with_3G_SIM_cards : it means that with 3G non working cards you have nothing and with working cards you have GSM standard mode, or do you get 3G ? |
| 10:59.18 | husku | nullix: no 3G in fr. only "regular and slow" gprs |
| 10:59.35 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: i think that being an expert is not required for anything. You see something, you want to understand something, you learn something. Talking about that on irc is not enough, you have got to learn. An unwillingness to do any simple shielding test is ... I don't know how to explain it. |
| 10:59.43 | husku | nullix: my sim is 3g enabled and i can use gprs and gsm. |
| 11:00.39 | nullix | but is is a hardware limitiation that 3g is different from gprs and can't be supported by freerunner or an operator issue ? |
| 11:00.50 | husku | nullix: hw limitation. |
| 11:01.13 | nullix | then basically we can tell freerunner does not support 3g. |
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| 11:01.24 | lindi- | nullix: the patent fees would probably have been totally overkill afaik |
| 11:01.27 | PaulFertser | nullix: but it supports 3G-enabled sim cards. |
| 11:01.27 | husku | nullix: afaik |
| 11:01.53 | PaulFertser | nullix: so if your operator has GSM/GPRS coverage, it will work. |
| 11:02.43 | nullix | thanks, was no so clear in wiki, or i didn't read right page. |
| 11:02.51 | PaulFertser | nullix: so far there were no reports about really incompatible sim cards. If the card works in old GSM phone, it will work in freerunner too (provided you upgraded GSM firmware). |
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| 11:05.07 | PaulFertser | nullix: i guess the page you mentioned contains outdated information that is no longer correct after we can easily reflash gsm firmware with the fixed version. |
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| 11:19.02 | Zoup | i cant get original minisd card working even with glamo_mci.sd_max_clk trick |
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| 11:21.29 | PaulFertser | Does anyone ever seen a credible report of _any_ good (read working in other GSM phones) simcard not working after calypso FW upgrade? |
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| 11:28.38 | PaulFertser | nullix: Added this text to the page, thanks: "So far there were no credible reports of any issues left with any sim cards after upgrading GSM firmware. So, basically, if it works with any old GSM phone, it will work with GTA01 and GTA02 too after firmware upgrade." |
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| 11:39.36 | DukeOfURL | Paul: I tried the FW upgrade last night and it wouldn't go. The GSM still works, however. |
| 11:39.49 | DukeOfURL | gta01b4 |
| 11:42.12 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: Details? |
| 11:44.36 | DukeOfURL | didn't have enough free space to load calypso, so I put it on the SD card. |
| 11:44.54 | DukeOfURL | followed the instructions exactly, but kept getting a timeout message |
| 11:45.48 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: timeout? Where? |
| 11:46.13 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: fluid.exe could connect to bootloader, but you got timeout afterwards? |
| 11:46.38 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: and you're sure you really disabled anything that could access /dev/ttySAC0 before starting fluid? |
| 11:46.54 | DukeOfURL | no, not sure |
| 11:47.49 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: so, what did you do prior to starting fluid to ensure nothing will interfere? |
| 11:47.51 | DukeOfURL | i got the 'Bootloader: (reset target)' message, sent the 's3c24xx-gpio b7=1', and then got the timeout |
| 11:49.25 | DukeOfURL | just followed the script. power off/on, s3c24xx-gpio b7=0, stty..., etc. |
| 11:49.51 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: what did you do to kill the processes that can access the modem? |
| 11:50.01 | DukeOfURL | nothing |
| 11:50.08 | DukeOfURL | :-( |
| 11:50.23 | PaulFertser | thinks that juri was right when she told me more instructions are needed in the section of killing processes. |
| 11:50.51 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: do something like /etc/init.d/ophonekitd stop (before doing anything else). |
| 11:51.54 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: wait some 5 sec and check "lsof |grep ttySAC0" output to ensure _nothing_ is accessing the modem. After that you can proceed and instructions will work. I advice you to not start any IO or CPU heavy apps during that. |
| 11:52.39 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: upgrading gsm is a matter of 5 minutes if done right. |
| 11:52.56 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: and there is no risk of "bricking". |
| 11:53.26 | DukeOfURL | Paul: thank you, I'll try it again |
| 11:54.04 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: you're welcome. Report the results please. |
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| 11:57.04 | Blu3 | ok, my freerunner isn't that reliable. >:-| overnight it decided it ran out of battery and the display is all shaky and unresponsive. it answers ping but ssh is refused and it's unresponsive to input. the battery can't be low - it's been on the charger all night. |
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| 12:15.21 | DukeOfURL | Paul: I have the Mar SHR distribution, and it doesn't have the ophone... start/stop script. I used lsof and then killed the gsm0710muxd process |
| 12:15.45 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: doesn't help, frameworkd will restart it again |
| 12:15.57 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: you need to stop frameworkd first |
| 12:16.27 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: or stop ophonekitd, probably it won't be restarted. It's still interesting to know how to properly stop/start it... |
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| 12:17.26 | DukeOfURL | but it appears to have sccessfully flashed. I can make and receive calls. |
| 12:17.43 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: have you seen the output of AT+CGMR command? |
| 12:18.03 | DukeOfURL | yes, and it matches what is on the web page |
| 12:18.30 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: congratulations then! :) Any other comments on the wiki page to make it more easy to follow? |
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| 12:20.12 | DukeOfURL | about the wget of calypso with not enough memory, download to /media/card, change the FLUID command |
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| 12:20.43 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: hm, isn't it obvious? |
| 12:21.07 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: i should add a note that the place where you download the firmware should have at least 6M free space. |
| 12:21.07 | DukeOfURL | but it wouldn't hurt to put it in the instructions... |
| 12:21.12 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: ack |
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| 12:27.07 | DukeOfURL | Paul: also, what would happen if someone attempted the flash without a SIM card? |
| 12:29.32 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: it's the preferred method actually :) |
| 12:29.41 | DukeOfURL | k |
| 12:30.23 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: sim card could probably hurt, but nobody knows for sure. I always flashed with my sim in. |
| 12:31.38 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: anyway it can't be bricked, so if some really nasty sim makes trouble (i guess probability of that is very low), one can just take it out and try again. |
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| 12:34.09 | Blu3 | arggggg |
| 12:34.29 | Blu3 | ar6000 keeps disappearing half a minute after bootup with ar6000_wow interrupt |
| 12:35.24 | PaulFertser | Blu3: that's intended |
| 12:35.34 | Blu3 | how do i get it back? |
| 12:35.46 | PaulFertser | Blu3: when the frameworkd loads, it ensures that everything that should be turned off is turned off. |
| 12:36.02 | PaulFertser | Blu3: ask frameworkd to turn it on. |
| 12:36.05 | Blu3 | but it's not supposed to be turned off |
| 12:36.27 | PaulFertser | Blu3: it is. On frameworkd start everything is supposed to be turned off. |
| 12:38.31 | Blu3 | is there a switch i can put in frameworkd.conf to leave it turned on? |
| 12:39.30 | PaulFertser | Blu3: no, it'll be against the concept of frameworkd. If you use it, you use it to control all phone devices in one central place. |
| 12:39.44 | PaulFertser | Blu3: for consistency |
| 12:40.23 | Blu3 | that's fine, but i want the default toggle for it to be on |
| 12:40.26 | PaulFertser | Blu3: does turning off hurt a bit? You can reenable it later, what's the problem? |
| 12:40.57 | Blu3 | what's the problem with having it on by default? :P |
| 12:41.05 | PaulFertser | Blu3: power consumption |
| 12:41.38 | Blu3 | hooking up a usb cable for network access to it is time consuming and restrictive in where it sits |
| 12:41.48 | Blu3 | i understand wifi eats power |
| 12:42.10 | Blu3 | but for the default, it's quite a bit more convenient that it's on |
| 12:42.25 | PaulFertser | Blu3: i guess you can use shr-settings to enable wifi in a finger-friendly way. |
| 12:42.40 | PaulFertser | Blu3: or add an icon to the desktop... |
| 12:43.12 | PaulFertser | Blu3: if you want it to be enabled by default, add it to your bootscript and forget about it. |
| 12:44.23 | Blu3 | ok, thank yas |
| 12:44.36 | PaulFertser | Blu3: you don't say that GSM should be enabled by default too, do you? ;) |
| 12:44.46 | Blu3 | it's a phone :P |
| 12:45.07 | PaulFertser | Blu3: but frameworkd disables every device it manages, including GSM. |
| 12:45.11 | Blu3 | and gsm is on by default |
| 12:46.03 | PaulFertser | Blu3: no |
| 12:46.04 | Blu3 | i haven't touched gsm on boot the last several times and it's always come up |
| 12:46.10 | PaulFertser | Blu3: probably because some app was started that requested it (like ophonekitd or zhone). |
| 12:47.38 | *** join/#openmoko d-b (n=alias@203-158-38-126.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 12:47.50 | DukeOfURL | I've moved my SIM card from a Moto flip phone to the gta01b4 running SHR. Is there a method to migrate the addresses from the SIM to the SHR address book? |
| 12:48.41 | Blu3 | is there a known issue with the gta02 falsely thinking the battery has died and shr? |
| 12:48.53 | *** join/#openmoko [-zeno-] (n=zeno@host194-26-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 12:49.00 | [-zeno-] | no |
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| 12:50.23 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: it can't be hard, but i don't know how exactly to do it. Either investigate yourself or ask at the mailing list. You can sometimes get help from shr devs on #openmoko-cdevel too. |
| 12:51.03 | DukeOfURL | nev |
| 12:51.17 | DukeOfURL | Paul: never mind, I found them |
| 12:52.35 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: and how to do it? shr-settings? |
| 12:54.21 | DukeOfURL | dunno. they were'nt there the first attempt, but they're in there now. (?) |
| 12:55.00 | PaulFertser | DukeOfURL: ah, you probably didn't wait enough. It takes some time to fully initialize sim to read contacts and messages from it. |
| 12:55.09 | DukeOfURL | k |
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| 13:15.20 | DocScrutinizer | PaulFertser: using alufoil also changes coupling of RF into JK4401. I did this test, with results not suggesting it for a standard test procedure. I even used microwave oven - same |
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| 13:15.59 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: it's an interesting observation :) |
| 13:16.27 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: but at least it's an obvious thing to try and it worth trying unless somebody proved it's not :) |
| 13:16.43 | DocScrutinizer | sure |
| 13:16.54 | DocScrutinizer | that's why I did it ;) |
| 13:17.09 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: so you couldn't reproduce buzz with it? |
| 13:17.21 | DocScrutinizer | not consistently |
| 13:18.28 | DocScrutinizer | in TPE we always seen much buzz when placing device on a steel bench or table |
| 13:19.07 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: was it after end-user complaints or before? |
| 13:19.23 | DocScrutinizer | otoh we weren't able to reproduce buzz on using a CMU200 o.O |
| 13:19.25 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: did you try it again with a steel bench at DE? |
| 13:19.38 | DocScrutinizer | after of course |
| 13:20.19 | DocScrutinizer | at my lab location it's virtually impossible to trigger buzz |
| 13:20.22 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: the reason why i ask about all this stuff is that some people say that the buzz is impossible on certain bands... |
| 13:20.37 | DocScrutinizer | maybe |
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| 13:21.22 | PaulFertser | If there was a method to force calypso to use only that buzz-free band, it'd be a semi-working workaround. |
| 13:21.34 | tig| | hmm which bands are bug free? |
| 13:21.51 | tig| | buzz even |
| 13:22.01 | PaulFertser | tig|: it's not lab data, nobody ever proved it really. |
| 13:22.02 | DocScrutinizer | no certified results on that. but keep in mind we also have reports of buzz on the 850/900 bands as well as on 1(8/9)00 |
| 13:22.58 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: what about using an extension cable connected to pin4 to guarantee "good" reception? |
| 13:23.04 | DocScrutinizer | and FrR isnt "tuned" to a certain band |
| 13:23.26 | DocScrutinizer | np, will create buzz all times afaik |
| 13:23.32 | PaulFertser | On all bands? |
| 13:23.43 | DocScrutinizer | I guess |
| 13:24.08 | PaulFertser | I think that's enough for a reason to do buzz fix regardless of anything else. |
| 13:24.54 | DocScrutinizer | PaulFertser: we always were interested in *fixing* buzz, not finding conditions where it doesn't show that much maybe |
| 13:26.23 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: sure, fixing's the most logical thing to do. I just ask to have something to say to those who say "i've no buzz ever, so i it works good for me". |
| 13:27.19 | DocScrutinizer | tell them "you're lucky, as you never used it in the wrong place" |
| 13:27.34 | PaulFertser | Then they say, no, we're lucky to use the right band. |
| 13:28.18 | DocScrutinizer | well some guys never listen or learn |
| 13:29.58 | DocScrutinizer | here in D we see buzz mainly on the one provider with worst coverage, though we got another one on same band, and two on 900 |
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| 13:32.01 | DocScrutinizer | so yeah, those guys are really lucky: theyäre in no bad places, use a good network (and band), maybe ahve a "good tuned" jk4401, the right method to hold the device |
| 13:32.14 | DocScrutinizer | and they all never used headset |
| 13:32.33 | PaulFertser | And the other side is buzz tolerant enough :) |
| 13:32.44 | DocScrutinizer | which btw *won't* be fixed by big-C |
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| 13:33.44 | DocScrutinizer | most of those saying "i never got buzz" even meaning exactly this. THEY don't hear any |
| 13:33.49 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: mwester is right, the most realistic way to solve the buzz problems is to use a BT headset. |
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| 13:34.11 | *** part/#openmoko dotmef (n=mef@mx1.bitwise.org) |
| 13:34.42 | saracen_ | Do any of you guys know if handheld-linux.com has an IRC channel? I just tried ordering my open moko and the credit card transaction, after submit, just showed a blank screen. Don't want to end up submitting twice ;x |
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| 13:34.55 | DocScrutinizer | yup, or external gsm-ant ;-) |
| 13:35.25 | PaulFertser | Is it known to fix the buzz? |
| 13:35.59 | DocScrutinizer | saracen_: sen a mail to them. nikolaus is very nice |
| 13:36.37 | DocScrutinizer | PaulFertser: yup. sure |
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| 13:37.01 | vininim | DocScrutinizer: I don't hear buzz... to be honest, most of the times I don't hear anything ;) |
| 13:37.11 | PaulFertser | vininim: or not again! |
| 13:37.29 | PaulFertser | vininim: the other side hears buzz, not FR user! |
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| 13:38.02 | DocScrutinizer | if he hears nothing all the time, he prolly neads a hearing-aid ;) |
| 13:38.05 | vininim | the only complains I get is of people not listening to me, not any specific buzz either, but I was only joking =P |
| 13:38.35 | vininim | nah, I just need to ``fix'' alsa files =P |
| 13:40.06 | DocScrutinizer | PaulFertser: I should create a folder wih "certified known good" statefiles |
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| 13:40.16 | saracen_ | DocScrutinizer: Thanks. I've emailed them. |
| 13:40.24 | DocScrutinizer | np |
| 13:40.32 | saracen_ | Anyway, I'm making the right choice by getting this phone, right? :) |
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| 13:41.34 | DocScrutinizer | saracen_: if you're interested in hacking more than in convenient phonecalls all the day, then yes |
| 13:43.25 | DocScrutinizer | usually mere phonecalls kinda work, but FR isn't the greates mobile around |
| 13:43.29 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: I imagine a set of "alsa control sets" (acs) and a deamon that will always know what acs are active at the moment and refuse to load a conflicting (that want to touch the control already used by another acs) acs. Then the loading/unloading should be initiated on alsa device open/close by hooks. Then a convinient way of generating acs should be implemented that'll allow to easily regenarate for slightly changed driver and moderately e |
| 13:43.35 | PaulFertser | ... regenerate for another ASoC driver. |
| 13:43.44 | DocScrutinizer | it's a fullsized computer nevertheless |
| 13:44.23 | saracen_ | Yeah, I'm hoping to almost get the best of both worlds. I make atleast one call a day, so not a heavy user. But I certaintly spend more time hacking than making phone calls during the day :) |
| 13:44.41 | DocScrutinizer | PaulFertser: that's what my plans were all about basically |
| 13:45.12 | DocScrutinizer | alas it's not funded, so moved down on my todo list |
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| 13:48.24 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: i know about it. Just thought about sane implementation today and it seems like it can be done incrementally, one part at a time. A daemon first, then hooks, then a convenient way (semantic and hierarchical) to generate acs... Moreover, all this parts can be greatly simplified for a first iteration. A much needed task, too bad nobody even thinks about it. Do you have a draft of your RFC, is it possible that someone from the community |
| 13:48.30 | PaulFertser | ... will pick up the ideas? |
| 13:50.32 | DocScrutinizer | ponders about that, as it won't pay my bread anymore despite the months I already invested in thinking to straigten the concept |
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| 13:51.27 | PaulFertser | Still the system i'm thinking of is not flexible enough when we need to adjust e.g. earpiece volume. But it's solvable. |
| 13:51.28 | DocScrutinizer | actually I thought of doing exactly that yesterday |
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| 13:54.24 | vininim | wat |
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| 13:56.12 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: oh, too bad, he restarted the server again :( |
| 13:56.43 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: i last said it probably worth waiting for some 2 weeks until everything becomes crystal clear and then publish it anyway. |
| 13:56.46 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, bip reducing online time instead of improving it |
| 13:57.08 | DocScrutinizer | hmm, yeah |
| 13:57.09 | PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: the previous uptime of that server was well above 200 days. |
| 13:57.16 | PaulFertser | IIRC |
| 13:57.37 | DocScrutinizer | PaulFertser: first of all move from alsactl to amixer. it's a smooth transition |
| 13:57.47 | DocScrutinizer | was my lost statement |
| 13:58.39 | PaulFertser | Ah, ok :) But who will arbiter what control can and what can't be changed? |
| 13:58.54 | DocScrutinizer | scripts |
| 13:59.08 | DocScrutinizer | in the first PoC |
| 14:00.57 | PaulFertser | So, move from alsactl to scripts that use amixer instead. Sounds good. |
| 14:01.08 | DocScrutinizer | exactly |
| 14:03.42 | DocScrutinizer | next modify the "alsactl" call in apps to "alsactl&" and have a trap inside the script called alsactl which is freeing resources if the background childprocess gets a sigint or whatever term signal |
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| 14:05.45 | DocScrutinizer | then eventually do the main API transition apps using dedicated alsa devices that do all this magic by using hooks |
| 14:05.52 | PaulFertser | I'd prefer to add new virtual devices with proper hooks from the beginning and remove alsactl calls from the apps altogether. |
| 14:06.13 | DocScrutinizer | sure |
| 14:06.45 | DocScrutinizer | but that'd break things, whereas my approach is a smooth transition |
| 14:06.47 | PaulFertser | There's not many apps that do alsactl that we care about. |
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| 14:07.39 | DocScrutinizer | np, we can use both same time and leave it to app devels to do the API change anytime |
| 14:08.46 | DocScrutinizer | btw it's not exactly an API change, as with dedicated alsadevices an app may work without FR-specific mods |
| 14:08.55 | DocScrutinizer | that's the point |
| 14:09.21 | PaulFertser | Yes, that's one of the coolest part of this plan. |
| 14:10.18 | DocScrutinizer | app "Xrooster" using alsadev "speaker" and mixer routing is done invisibly to the app |
| 14:11.09 | DocScrutinizer | or dev "user", dev"hifiplayback", whatever |
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| 14:12.52 | DocScrutinizer | for the curious: "hifiplayback" being an exclusive allocation of hs-jack stereoout that can't get spoiled by ringtones etc |
| 14:16.09 | vininim | mmm... I wouldn't make use of it. |
| 14:16.31 | DocScrutinizer | that's up to you |
| 14:17.21 | DocScrutinizer | just select the audiodevice meeting your needs for each app |
| 14:19.24 | DocScrutinizer | for those braindamaged apps using a hardcoded "default" for alsa audiodevice, this can easily be patched to use "myUnique" and create an entry in .asoundrc |
| 14:20.58 | vininim | DocScrutinizer: were you joerg_2 ? I remember him(you) talking about that. |
| 14:21.21 | DocScrutinizer | ~docscrutinizer |
| 14:21.22 | apt | extra, extra, read all about it, docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko |
| 14:21.50 | vininim | there could be two joergs =) |
| 14:22.26 | DocScrutinizer | nah, I'm joerg_rw or joerg_42 occasionally |
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| 14:22.53 | DocScrutinizer | or joerg_zzZZzz |
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| 14:57.26 | PaulFertser | cjb: Hey. I've something to say about AMD/ATI openness. Have you seen my message? |
| 14:59.22 | cjb | PaulFertser: cool, thanks for the link |
| 14:59.37 | PaulFertser | cjb: so basically it boils down to fucking software patents again, it seems. |
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| 15:00.16 | cjb | it's not a very thorough message, and doesn't explicitly mention patents |
| 15:01.05 | PaulFertser | cjb: i asked what exactly he meant by talking about "IP" in the next message. |
| 15:01.26 | cjb | ah |
| 15:01.27 | cjb | > |
| 15:01.27 | cjb | I'm talking about all kinds of IP here. Patents, 3rd party code, own |
| 15:01.27 | cjb | business important knowledge, differentiation from competitors, NDAs |
| 15:01.30 | cjb | with technology owners, you name it. |
| 15:01.57 | cjb | it doesn't seem like a fair summary to collapse that to "it's all about patents" |
| 15:02.12 | cjb | but it's certainly annoying, I agree |
| 15:02.14 | PaulFertser | But only software patents can really taint, as far as i understand. |
| 15:03.03 | PaulFertser | NDAs can be circumvented by contracting Novell devs. |
| 15:03.05 | cjb | tainting just refers to someone implementing open code being given access to closed code/specs, such that their open implementation is legally questionable |
| 15:03.52 | PaulFertser | To the best of my knowledge on open implementation can be legally questionable only if it includes 3rd party code. |
| 15:04.35 | cjb | I don't think AMD's lawyers agree with you |
| 15:04.44 | cjb | or at least, I think they want to be more careful than that |
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| 15:06.44 | PaulFert1er_ | Oh hell, that server become really unstable :( |
| 15:07.12 | PaulFertser | Can you explain that please? |
| 15:07.12 | PaulFertser | BTW, NDA per se is not an "IP", afaik. |
| 15:07.56 | PaulFertser | cjb: "IP" is "patents", "copyrighted work", "trade secrets". All three regulated by entirely different legistlation. |
| 15:08.18 | cjb | Matthias gave a different definition; do you not accept it? |
| 15:08.47 | PaulFertser | cjb: Matthias is not a lawyer and i've seen a presentation given on some "foss" conference by a patent attorney. |
| 15:09.28 | PaulFertser | IT is not a word even ;) |
| 15:10.22 | PaulFertser | One of those marketing terms that don't mean anything particular even for the lawyers. |
| 15:10.29 | PaulFertser | s/IT/IP/ |
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| 15:13.37 | PaulFertser | cjb: BTW, Linus doesn't care about software patents. And as far as i can tell the code can be questionable only if it's directly derived from some other code which license prohibits it or if you think that software patents are enforceable. |
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| 15:32.43 | DocScrutinizer | patents care if you earn money by using the idea. afaik "private" useage is free. disclosing FOSS code that's based on patented ideas also should be a non-issue. deploying code or executables and even taking money for that is a different thing |
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| 15:36.38 | DocScrutinizer | copying codesegments is a copyright violation independent of patents and is illegal therefor |
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| 15:40.52 | mmontour | starox_: http://pastebin.ca/1364357 (still doesn't work) |
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| 15:48.25 | vininim | DocScrutinizer: free software(GPL-wise) requires that people can have commercial use of code ( no additional restrictions) |
| 15:50.29 | vininim | but since Linus isn't behind a distribution, I can see why he doesn't care. =P |
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| 15:51.12 | cjb | vininim: uh, no. |
| 15:51.22 | cjb | it requires that they can sell GPL'd code for money. |
| 15:51.48 | cjb | we're talking about companies who distribute non-GPL'd code for free |
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| 15:53.12 | DocScrutinizer | vininim: that's no contradiction to getting issues with patents when doing so. Just the author of FOSS/GPL'd code doesn't claim any rights |
| 15:53.44 | PaulFertser | cjb: btw, not with an intention of reminding of bad things, but can you say if there is any hope of olpc project? |
| 15:54.10 | cjb | PaulFertser: sure. did you see the ARM announce? |
| 15:54.41 | PaulFertser | cjb: i've read that negroponte asked m$ to port windows on arm (?) |
| 15:54.51 | cjb | that's right |
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| 15:55.08 | PaulFertser | cjb: sounds useless and stupid |
| 15:55.25 | PaulFertser | cjb: i just thought wtf |
| 15:55.44 | PaulFertser | Because it doesn't make sense |
| 15:56.07 | cjb | why not? |
| 15:56.11 | DocScrutinizer | vininim: exactly *because* the author doesn't claim any rights even for commercial use, she don't care about the code nfringing any patents |
| 15:56.47 | PaulFertser | cjb: using windows doesn't make sense, therefore asking anybody to do anything with it doesn't make sense. |
| 15:58.01 | DocScrutinizer | feels nausea ;-) |
| 15:58.09 | PaulFertser | cjb: i thought one of the main targets of olpc project was to give kids access to the technology. ms is only good at taking any access away. |
| 15:58.24 | cjb | PaulFertser: I don't understand why you're fixated on Microsoft |
| 15:58.37 | cjb | we just announced that we want to move to ARM, which is a platform that only runs free software |
| 15:58.40 | vininim | cjb: olpc wasn't supposed to be just a cheap laptop |
| 15:58.45 | cjb | this clearly shows that we don't give a crap about Microsoft |
| 15:58.50 | cjb | else we would have chosen x86, see? |
| 15:59.33 | PaulFertser | cjb: why all that talk about MS then? Of course choosing arm makes sense. Probably it was choosed in the beginning even. |
| 15:59.33 | DocScrutinizer | away for breakfast ;D |
| 15:59.48 | cjb | PaulFertser: because that's what everyone asks us about |
| 15:59.55 | vininim | but the project fixation with m$ seems to be like that: the different approach to education turning into ``let's teach these kids excel'' |
| 15:59.57 | PaulFertser | vininim: in case you don't know, cjb is one of the active participants of the olpc project, he knows what he talks about. |
| 15:59.58 | nezza-_- | cjb: and it was what olpc talked about@! |
| 16:00.07 | vininim | cjb: oh, nice to know. =) |
| 16:00.30 | nezza-_- | cjb: i have some OLPCs here, I'm a supporter :) |
| 16:00.32 | cjb | vininim: that doesn't seem like a very valid criticism. Excel does not run on ARM. |
| 16:00.37 | PaulFertser | cjb: because negroponte says about it. |
| 16:01.16 | cjb | PaulFertser: I just don't understand how you're going from "OLPC wants to move to ARM" to "OLPC is selling out to Windows". The two ideas contradict each other. |
| 16:01.18 | vininim | cjb: if people demand olpc with windows, it seems that the project isn't quite selling _the idea_ right. |
| 16:01.55 | cjb | vininim: can I join your fantasy world? it sounds awesome. |
| 16:01.56 | PaulFertser | cjb: i dont go. I just said i heard that negroponte asks microsoft to port to arm. |
| 16:01.57 | dent | I can't imagine win running on arm... win + m$ apps |
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| 16:02.27 | dent | (real win, not wince) |
| 16:02.42 | nezza-_- | dent: dont even mention WinCE for OLPC :-D |
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| 16:03.24 | PaulFertser | cjb: if negroponte never mentioned windows people all around wouldn't say WTF every time they think about olpc, you know. |
| 16:05.13 | PaulFertser | cjb: (move to arm) is it a real project? Does OLPC have enough momentum to do it, because it's not that easy and fast. Moreover i heard that Sugar is now community-driven and that is somehow not good news for the project, is it? |
| 16:05.48 | cjb | why is something being community-driven bad news? |
| 16:05.57 | vininim | heh |
| 16:06.13 | nezza-_- | cjb: because it seems like olpc has not enough manpower to manage tihs. |
| 16:06.14 | cjb | the Sugar community's larger than it's ever been before |
| 16:07.16 | cjb | nezza-_-: we don't want to manage sugar; they can manage themselves |
| 16:07.32 | cjb | as for the ARM stuff, you're right that we don't have much manpower, but we never have |
| 16:08.19 | nezza-_- | cjb: yes, but olpc 'fired' half of it's staff if i remember it right. i would love to have an arm based olpc, but i'm just not sure if they could made it :) |
| 16:08.33 | PaulFertser | cjb: so you basically assure us that OLPC is alive and kicking? Well, that's good news then. |
| 16:08.39 | nezza-_- | same thing with openmoko... I can't trust any statement from openmoko. |
| 16:08.48 | nezza-_- | PaulFertser: absolutly |
| 16:08.48 | PaulFertser | Who can? :) |
| 16:08.52 | cjb | PaulFertser: I guess I'm frustrated because I would expect the reaction to an article saying that we want to challenge the status quo by shipping ARM/Linux on a laptop to be positive from free software communities, not that they'd fixate on a stupid sentence about how Microsoft should port Windows to ARM :) |
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| 16:09.07 | cjb | nezza-_-: well, I'm one of the other half, at least :) |
| 16:09.25 | nezza-_- | cjb: That assumes that you are really good ;-) |
| 16:09.29 | cjb | there's no harm in trying, anyway. either we'll manage to make it or we won't, but it's only a good thing to try |
| 16:09.30 | PaulFertser | cjb: Hm, to me it's obvious that netbooks should be arm-based, nothing new :) |
| 16:09.38 | cjb | PaulFertser: can you name one that is? :) |
| 16:09.48 | cjb | there's a lot of hesitance to move to something that can't run Windows |
| 16:09.55 | cjb | I hope OLPC might help change that |
| 16:10.00 | cjb | I can't name an ARM netbook or laptop that's shipping |
| 16:10.22 | nezza-_- | cjb: yes.. but I would love to have one :) |
| 16:10.28 | PaulFertser | cjb: some concepts from China, not really shipped... But it's obvious that it'd be a better thing to do instead of trying to use not suitable x86-based arch. |
| 16:10.38 | cjb | nezza-_-: now you're reminding me that I should go be really good by writing code instead of chatting on IRC :) |
| 16:10.51 | vininim | they are planning to launch some OMAP netbook in may iirc |
| 16:10.53 | cjb | PaulFertser: you keep saying that things are "obvious" when they do not match reality. |
| 16:11.12 | cjb | PaulFertser: yes, it should be "obvious" that no-one runs Windows and everyone uses ARM |
| 16:11.23 | cjb | how are we going to make it actually happen? |
| 16:11.37 | PaulFertser | cjb: Most netbook vendors need windows, that's fact. OLPC doesn't need it (your words), so that's obvious they choose a better suited arch, isn't it? |
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| 16:13.01 | cjb | PaulFertser: doesn't mean it's easy. many of the people we're trying to sell laptops to demand the possibility of running Windows. |
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| 16:13.28 | cjb | (you sell to government officials, not kids. I think the kids are fine with Linux.) |
| 16:13.40 | vininim | actually june, http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/ |
| 16:13.41 | PaulFertser | cjb: Is that the reason for all the crap talks about windows? |
| 16:13.48 | cjb | PaulFertser: yes. |
| 16:13.49 | PaulFertser | cjb: that's sad to hear |
| 16:13.57 | cjb | I agree |
| 16:14.02 | cjb | vininim: yeah, I'm excited about that one |
| 16:15.46 | PaulFertser | cjb: anyway i hope OLPC will do better than OM, wish you good luck |
| 16:16.40 | cjb | thanks :) |
| 16:16.54 | cjb | we've shipped nearly a million laptops to kids, so that's a pretty good start by itself |
| 16:17.02 | cjb | (all running Linux, of course) |
| 16:19.24 | PaulFertser | Heh, much better than OM, indeed. |
| 16:19.55 | CIA-54 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r4010404f1c01 10/ (5 files in 2 dirs): ogsmd: [FREESCALE NEPTUNE] use more multiplexing channels to catch all unsolicited responses |
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| 16:21.23 | mjr | cjb, and to me, so thanks, and hopefully olpc can manage with the issues facing it. And yeah, I also flinched at the news portraying Negroponte basically going "we're doing an ARM laptop, hey, MS, please port Windows for us" |
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| 16:21.52 | mjr | but hopefully that's not the whole of the truth |
| 16:22.39 | cjb | mjr: you might paraphrase instead as "we're doing an ARM laptop, and MS, if you want in, you'd better release an ARM port". |
| 16:22.45 | cjb | or perhaps somewhere in the middle of the two. |
| 16:23.23 | mjr | cjb, yes, I like your portrayal better ;) |
| 16:23.56 | cjb | after all, we're not saying that we won't switch to ARM if they don't port Windows |
| 16:24.04 | mjr | that is true |
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| 16:28.00 | Sargun | they should do MIPS |
| 16:28.19 | tig|1 | cjb : mircosoft does have an ARM port, it is called CE :) |
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| 16:34.03 | SeligArkin | I am not having the best luck today... |
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| 16:37.44 | SeligArkin | It seems frameworkd doesn't like the phone being suspended |
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| 16:51.35 | cjb | Sargun: MIPS is too high power :) |
| 16:51.49 | cjb | tig|1: heh, Windows CE is not Windows |
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| 16:55.19 | tig|1 | cjb: I was just saying MS had an ARM OS already, it is their fault it is crap :) |
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| 16:56.37 | mjr | don't really think they'll be going for arm anytime soon with a proper windows port. Their application base strength is in x86 |
| 16:57.09 | mjr | which is just fine by me, hopefully arm machines will become more common ;P |
| 16:57.33 | roterguru | hi |
| 16:57.58 | roterguru | any news with the buzz problem? official hw fix? |
| 16:59.43 | PaulFertser | roterguru: no |
| 16:59.59 | PaulFertser | roterguru: unofficial yes, official no |
| 17:01.01 | roterguru | damnit, why not official. I'm waiting since august last year now... :( |
| 17:01.21 | tig|1 | roterguru: presumably contract reasons |
| 17:01.29 | PaulFertser | roterguru: blame canada |
| 17:02.21 | tig|1 | roterguru: the fix has been known for ages now and is deployed on the v7 phones and has been retrofitted to the v6 ones at the factory but for those of us with units already the have not worked out what they are doing yet |
| 17:03.11 | roterguru | so what now? I've bought a phone and can't phone with it |
| 17:04.07 | PaulFertser | roterguru: fix it yourself? |
| 17:04.17 | PaulFertser | roterguru: like many of us already did |
| 17:04.25 | tig|1 | roterguru: I know, it is annoying the software and battery life is getting to where I could be using it day to day but the buzz problem means it is a no go at the moment, I am going to see if the place down the road can fix it |
| 17:04.52 | roterguru | I can solder, but never (ok once a led) smd ... |
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| 17:05.12 | PaulFertser | roterguru: esp 0402 :) |
| 17:05.23 | roterguru | ? |
| 17:05.37 | SeligArkin | It depends on where you are,my friend has only complained once about it |
| 17:05.39 | PaulFertser | roterguru: the other possibility: help FSO guys to integrate bluetooth headset support |
| 17:06.03 | PaulFertser | roterguru: 0402 is the size of R that requires replacing, 1x0.5mm |
| 17:06.15 | vininim | gee |
| 17:06.22 | PaulFertser | Or smth like that |
| 17:06.37 | roterguru | ok ... and I don't have a bluetooth headset :) |
| 17:06.38 | PaulFertser | But it's easily accessible |
| 17:06.52 | PaulFertser | roterguru: they're pretty cheap now... |
| 17:07.33 | roterguru | any one of you did it have repaired in Germany? (soldering service?) |
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| 17:12.58 | CIA-54 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * re616740ab11c 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/freescale_neptune/ (channel.py mediator.py modem.py): ogsmd: [FREESCALE NEPTUNE] response to +COPS? can be corrupt, take this into account |
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| 17:40.15 | mwester | ~blame openmoko |
| 17:40.16 | apt | ACTION blames openmoko (and Canada) for all the evil in the world |
| 17:40.41 | KenYoung | Blame Openmoko for what? |
| 17:41.01 | mwester | all the evil in the world. |
| 17:41.19 | KenYoung | Sounds fair. |
| 17:41.44 | mwester | but specifically for failing to take any responsibility for the GSM buzz problem, and the other flaws they designed into the device. |
| 17:42.52 | KenYoung | I worry that if they did a full recall, and fixed all the hardware problems on all devices, they'd go out of business. I'd hate to see that happen. |
| 17:43.33 | KenYoung | But then I'm a fanboi... |
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| 17:48.48 | mwester | KenYoung: I understand the concern. So then, logic says that those who are concerned in that fashion, those people must be willing to donate $500 to Openmoko for the purpose of keeping them in business. Because essentially, the device is not useful for its intended purpose, and therefore the reasoning that "Om should not be responsible for making it work becuase they might go out of business" amounts to that. |
| 17:50.56 | KenYoung | Well, I've purchased 2 Freerunners, and a 1973, so I've pretty much just sent them money for support. I would be happy to contribute $500 towards a fund that would pay some party to do the hardware fixes on phone pwned by persons who do not wish to perform the surgery themselves. |
| 17:50.57 | mwester | I'm willing to negotiate with Om, but Om has not indicated any willingness to even do that much -- they refuse to even ackowlege that they are in any way responsible for making the device work as a basic phone. It's that position that I blame them for; that's an insult to the people that are working so hard writing software for free for them. |
| 17:51.29 | KenYoung | oops "owned" not "pwned". |
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| 18:12.37 | Bert_2 | Hi, SHR-unstable keeps on reporting to me that it can't find modules.dep, also no kernel module are loaded are there is no audio (alsa can't start, no /dev/sdp etc.), are these known bugs or am I doing something wrong, also I can debug if that would help ??? |
| 18:13.09 | max_posedon | kernel and modules version mistmatch |
| 18:13.21 | Bert_2 | max_posedon: known issue ? |
| 18:13.42 | max_posedon | yes, since 1993, kernel and modules should be from same kernel) |
| 18:14.07 | max_posedon | e.g. if you reflash shr, plz reflash suggested kernel also |
| 18:14.53 | Bert_2 | max_posedon: yeah, I already know it is searching in the wrong place, but also I can't find any file named modules.dep (did a find / modules.dep) |
| 18:15.04 | Bert_2 | max_posedon: also, I'm running it on an SD card |
| 18:15.23 | SeligArkin | should have been find / | grep module.dep |
| 18:15.25 | SeligArkin | iirc |
| 18:15.28 | mmontour | look in /lib/modules/ |
| 18:15.45 | PaulFertser | max_posedon: lol |
| 18:16.06 | SeligArkin | May I have a kernel reflash, plz? |
| 18:16.19 | starox_ | mmontour: roger ! I got it :) |
| 18:16.42 | Bert_2 | I looked in there but I couldn't find it, I'm putting my kernel back on the SD card now, but I think it's not going to help |
| 18:16.56 | SeligArkin | head-desks |
| 18:17.14 | Bert_2 | SeligArkin: woops, did I say something stupid ? |
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| 18:19.03 | Bert_2 | something is clearly wrong, the uImage from here http://build.shr-project.org/shr-unstable/images/om-gta02/ is 2.6.24 but the kernel in the rootfs.tar.gz is 2.6.28 |
| 18:20.14 | mmontour | starox_: did you find the bug? |
| 18:20.23 | max_posedon | Bert_2, uImage-2.6.28-oe1+gitr34240a1c06ae36180dee695aa25bbae869b2aa26-r3-om-gta02.bin |
| 18:20.32 | max_posedon | doesn't look like it is 2.6.24 |
| 18:21.10 | max_posedon | Bert_2, open you link, and eyes plz) |
| 18:21.49 | Bert_2 | max_posedon: when it boots it tells me it's 2.6.24 |
| 18:22.02 | max_posedon | so, UPDATE the kernel! |
| 18:22.43 | max_posedon | if you booting from microsd it is maybe on your first sd partition with name uImage.bin |
| 18:22.58 | starox_ | mmontour: No, I just wanted to say I've got your report. sorry. Nevertheless, the slow version should work with more cards. I continue to seek the bug. |
| 18:23.01 | Bert_2 | max_posedon: isn't uImage-om-gta02-latest.bin a symbolic link to uImage-2.6.28-oe1+gitr34240a1c06ae36180dee695aa25bbae869b2aa26-r3-om-gta02.bin ? |
| 18:23.21 | max_posedon | yes it is |
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| 18:23.33 | max_posedon | but you didn't boot this kernel |
| 18:23.37 | max_posedon | you booting smth else |
| 18:24.39 | mmontour | OK, wasn't sure what you meant by "I got it :)". Good luck tracking it down. I won't have time today for any more testing but I can try another one later in the week |
| 18:25.06 | Bert_2 | max_posedon: okey, this is odd, I downloaded the latest kernel on the 20th of febuary but it's not the one that's on the site now |
| 18:25.25 | Bert_2 | altough it claims to be from 8th of febuary (checked with md5sum) |
| 18:25.29 | Bert_2 | my bad, sorry |
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| 18:57.31 | Bert_2 | max_posedon: okey, this fixed my sound issue, thank you very much and sorry that I didn't check that myself |
| 18:58.02 | max_posedon | no problem) I easyly detect your problem) it doesn't eat my time much) |
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| 19:08.34 | spydon | Does anyone know how to set a background pic in OM 2009.12? |
| 19:09.22 | PaulFertser | Back from the future? |
| 19:09.45 | spydon | hehe lol, 2008.12 |
| 19:10.01 | SpeedEvil | Oh well, can't help then. |
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| 19:10.23 | SpeedEvil | I've got a burned copy of a 2009.12 manual that came from a portal that opened up in my toilet. |
| 19:10.40 | SpeedEvil | Through the portal could be heard screaming. |
| 19:11.04 | spydon | I don't think I'm ever going to flash to 2009.12 :O |
| 19:11.49 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: sounds like dante's apocalypse |
| 19:12.08 | DocScrutinizer | err inferno |
| 19:12.32 | DocScrutinizer | gives himself a spank to get awake |
| 19:14.16 | SeligArkin | smacks DocScrutinizer's ass |
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| 19:15.24 | SpeedEvil | should know the normal X setting way. |
| 19:15.31 | SpeedEvil | is having a bda day |
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| 19:23.17 | DocScrutinizer | heh :) |
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| 19:35.54 | SeligArkin | SpeedEvil: whats a bda day? :P |
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| 19:36.05 | SeligArkin | is it anything like a pda day? |
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| 19:45.26 | Blu3 | what's the package name in SHR of the program that has all the elemental tests in it? i don't need it on my phone desktop and would like to remove it :) |
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| 19:54.20 | johnsu01 | so, the battery meter on e17 is perpetually wrong for me, running on Debian |
| 19:54.26 | johnsu01 | it seems to max out at around 30% |
| 19:54.55 | johnsu01 | though the low battery alert seems generally accurate |
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| 20:01.23 | DocScrutinizer | johnsu01: even battery itself needs a calibration charge cycle every once in a while |
| 20:01.58 | johnsu01 | DocScrutinizer: how would I go about that? |
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| 20:02.21 | SeligArkin | ... I have a new task, forget getting openttd to work. |
| 20:02.25 | SeligArkin | I have a nobel quest |
| 20:02.49 | SeligArkin | See how much you can trim down wikipedia, by not including articles with certion words in it |
| 20:02.52 | DocScrutinizer | a good question as you're not supposed to completely drain your bat if you can't boot on flat bat |
| 20:02.53 | shellevil | blows SeligArkin up. |
| 20:03.08 | shellevil | puts away the dynamite. |
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| 20:04.01 | shellevil | SeligArkin: a nobler quest. hit random till you get to a page >20k, and remove half the words while making it better |
| 20:04.11 | SeligArkin | heh |
| 20:04.22 | shellevil | Way too many wordy fuckers on wikipedia. |
| 20:04.45 | shellevil | why use one word, when three or four can do? |
| 20:05.06 | shellevil | The worst example of this was the article on leather. |
| 20:05.19 | shellevil | using the word 'putrescible' |
| 20:05.28 | shellevil | now, ok, it's an actual english word. |
| 20:05.46 | SeligArkin | shellevil: the example that inspired me is |
| 20:05.51 | shellevil | But 'rot' is understood by maybe 95%+ of english speakers, and means the same thing. |
| 20:05.54 | SeligArkin | to remove the word "hitlet" |
| 20:06.04 | SeligArkin | grr hitler |
| 20:06.05 | shellevil | that seems like an uncommon word. |
| 20:06.07 | shellevil | ah |
| 20:06.25 | shellevil | wonders if that'd be illegal in germany. |
| 20:06.43 | *** join/#openmoko emacsian1 (n=ram@122.167.222.239) |
| 20:06.50 | SeligArkin | "Well, I don't know, and my phone's wiki dump doesn;t know, so hitler must have something to do with it!" |
| 20:07.15 | lindi- | SeligArkin: using mvs? |
| 20:07.29 | shellevil | I was looking for a nice sorted list of wikipedia pages by access |
| 20:07.39 | SeligArkin | lindi-: I am not sure how I would do it yet |
| 20:07.42 | shellevil | so you could get a 100m, 1G, ... wikipedia |
| 20:07.50 | shellevil | diddn't really find it |
| 20:07.53 | lindi- | SeligArkin: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/mvs.txt |
| 20:08.03 | shellevil | and then add in 'current events' wikipedia articles in a feed |
| 20:08.13 | SeligArkin | I don't want to start working on it untill I have more time |
| 20:08.20 | shellevil | google mokopedia |
| 20:08.28 | SeligArkin | in about 15-30 mins I have to go to a doctors appointment |
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| 20:09.25 | starox_ | shellevil: mokopedia is dead, you have a fork here : http://www.reitwiessner.de/openmoko/evopedia.html |
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| 20:09.46 | starox_ | 7G for the english db <2G for the others |
| 20:10.06 | lindi- | SeligArkin: ah, i only have wiki.openmoko.org in my phone |
| 20:10.19 | shellevil | SeligArkin: good luck |
| 20:10.23 | lindi- | SeligArkin: it's only 14M |
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| 20:12.44 | SeligArkin | lindi-: I am talking about wikipedia, not the openmoko wii |
| 20:12.47 | SeligArkin | wiki* |
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| 20:14.10 | SeligArkin | anyway, g2g |
| 20:14.27 | johnsu01 | SeligArkin: mvs works on all mediawikis unless they have odd configs.. |
| 20:14.42 | johnsu01 | definitely works on wikipedia |
| 20:19.07 | peter_b | join #openmoko-cdevel |
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| 20:19.49 | mmontour | starox_: thanks for the link. I was looking at mokopedia a few days ago and trying to figure out what had happened to it. |
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| 20:26.56 | starox_ | mmontour: This is the reason which makes me hack u-boot :) |
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| 20:28.51 | mmontour | Ah, I see. Not strictly necessary (you can load kernel from NAND and rootfs from SD) but it's still a good reason to work on the project |
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| 21:09.11 | Bert_2 | Hi, any SHR dev here ? |
| 21:09.43 | Bert_2 | *devs |
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| 21:11.03 | Bert_2 | cause I have some questions about their phone app stuff |
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| 21:49.31 | slaxxin | shr released yet? |
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| 21:53.02 | vininim | anything changed between moko11-beta and moko11 release? |
| 21:53.14 | mwester | s/-beta// |
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| 22:13.12 | DocScrutinizer | nope |
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| 22:19.36 | DocScrutinizer | vininim: U should use moko11 for new updates. If U got 11b already, no need to update |
| 22:22.45 | *** join/#openmoko emmentaler (n=emmental@46-41-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch) |
| 22:25.00 | SeligArkin | sdknfskjdf I HATE zhone! |
| 22:26.01 | DocScrutinizer | SeligArkin: tztztz |
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| 22:31.53 | eolson | SeligArkin, just curious -- is there something specific you hate? (I know I could use a call log if it's not in the most recent version) |
| 22:32.17 | SeligArkin | eolson: it's interface is batshit crazy |
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| 22:33.11 | SeligArkin | I do alot of texting,I like to leave them there for future reference |
| 22:33.20 | SeligArkin | I can't for the life of me figure out how to go to the next page |
| 22:33.31 | eolson | next page of text messages? |
| 22:33.33 | SeligArkin | there are two little arrows on the bottom - which do nothing |
| 22:33.51 | eolson | well, the arrows should do it |
| 22:34.07 | SeligArkin | They aren't doing anything for me |
| 22:34.09 | eolson | hitting the right arrow works for me (but I'm running an older version probably) |
| 22:36.01 | SeligArkin | does nothing for me |
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| 22:38.55 | PaulFertser | SeligArkin: probably you have less than 7 messages? |
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| 22:57.09 | SeligArkin | PaulFertser: I should have more than that |
| 22:57.21 | SeligArkin | seeing asthe screen is full, and I just got a notice of having another |
| 22:57.53 | PaulFertser | SeligArkin: still it's like that. Sometimes you need to restart Zhone to see all the messages... |
| 22:58.10 | SeligArkin | thats.. sad |
| 22:59.53 | SeligArkin | ... UI fail |
| 23:00.06 | PaulFertser | SeligArkin: Zhone is the UI for testing framework, nothing more. |
| 23:00.20 | SeligArkin | so I have heard |
| 23:00.31 | SeligArkin | I am thinking I will write my own tools, if only for the experience |
| 23:03.09 | PaulFertser | SeligArkin: why don't you want to help SHR project instead? |
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| 23:33.47 | DocScrutinizer | SeligArkin: a good question/suggestion |
| 23:35.32 | SeligArkin | PaulFertser: DocScrutinizer: I have debian installed atm, and rather like the functioning package manager. :P |
| 23:36.00 | SeligArkin | I do have SHR on the flash |
| 23:36.08 | |Marco| | is there a howto or a guide to making OE recipes anywhere ? |
| 23:36.53 | dent | |Marco|: copy some other recipe and hack it to your taste :) |
| 23:36.55 | DocScrutinizer | so maybe write a better package manager, instead of keeping the good one that doesn't offer any packages you're happy with? |
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| 23:37.27 | SeligArkin | hmm |
| 23:37.46 | |Marco| | dent: aha, err.. can you point me to one? I don't have space to set up a build env on my machines lately.. |
| 23:38.00 | dent | |Marco|: btw. some pointers you probably looked into: http://wiki.openembedded.net/index.php/Documentation |
| 23:38.10 | DocScrutinizer | SeligArkin: what's any good in a distri that has a good manager to install apps you don't like? |
| 23:38.22 | |Marco| | dent: okiday |
| 23:38.24 | dent | |Marco|: well, I'm fighting with OE myself, but I seem to be losing, so... I'm not the right person I guess :) |
| 23:38.24 | |Marco| | thanks |
| 23:38.27 | dent | np |
| 23:40.36 | |Marco| | but, can you point me to some spot that has a few (if any at all) .bb files? I don't have any |
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| 23:41.13 | |Marco| | and I'm an inpatient schmuck : |
| 23:41.15 | |Marco| | :D |
| 23:41.52 | mmontour | |Marco|: start with MokoMakefile or FSOMakefile. That will set up an openembedded build environment which you can then inspect and customize |
| 23:42.11 | SeligArkin | DocScrutinizer: does the opkg for SHR have the memoy leak fix> |
| 23:42.28 | |Marco| | mmontour: I just stated that I dont have space for that :/ |
| 23:42.38 | |Marco| | hm.. I belive.. |
| 23:42.44 | |Marco| | I'll give it a shot |
| 23:43.11 | DocScrutinizer | SeligArkin: I'm the stupid hw-guy, no idea about fixes in SHR. Sorry |
| 23:43.19 | SeligArkin | ah |
| 23:44.02 | dent | |Marco|: if you want just OE, then git clone http://repo.or.cz/r/openembedded.git |
| 23:44.10 | dent | but then you don't get OM-specific stuff |
| 23:44.20 | |Marco| | okay |
| 23:45.03 | dent | OE is some 422M |
| 23:45.06 | mmontour | You can browse the recipes through a git-web interface (e.g. http://cgit.openembedded.net/cgit.cgi) if you're really short on space |
| 23:46.14 | vininim | but you need more than 30GB if you want to build SHR images =P |
| 23:46.25 | SeligArkin | gets her USB mini SD card test |
| 23:46.41 | SeligArkin | erm |
| 23:46.44 | SeligArkin | reader |
| 23:47.05 | SeligArkin | dd's it to a random file in her home dir to backup her debian instakk |
| 23:47.46 | dent | SeligArkin: ls ~ | wc -l ? :) |
| 23:48.03 | SeligArkin | thats a good question |
| 23:48.19 | dent | just curious |
| 23:48.25 | SeligArkin | 137 |
| 23:48.27 | dent | mine is just 49 :) |
| 23:48.29 | dent | :-P |
| 23:48.38 | SeligArkin | thats on my laptop |
| 23:48.53 | SeligArkin | 63 |
| 23:48.58 | SeligArkin | thats on the server I irc form |
| 23:49.10 | dent | hm, 104 on where I irc from... |
| 23:49.26 | vininim | 98 here |
| 23:49.39 | vininim | quite disorganized here |
| 23:49.54 | SeligArkin | I need to clean up my dir sometime |
| 23:50.13 | SeligArkin | I atleast keep my code seperate from that mess. :P |
| 23:50.17 | SeligArkin | ~/programming |
| 23:50.35 | dent | last time I cleaned up I was "rm -rf" trigger-happy... |
| 23:50.52 | SeligArkin | haha |
| 23:51.25 | SeligArkin | adds to her todo list |
| 23:51.32 | vininim | I remember confusing ls with rm (history buffer lack of skills) and deleting all my dot files |
| 23:51.55 | SeligArkin | falls over laughin |
| 23:56.02 | SeligArkin | hmm |
| 23:56.14 | lpotter | thats what backups are for :) |