IRC log for #openmoko on 20090218

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01:13.50Toaster`Greetings all.  Could anyone point me towards a python 2.6 version of python-pyalsaaudio?  SHR-testing has v2.5, and there doesn't seem to be one for SHR-unstable.
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01:43.43Toaster`Could anyone point me towards a python 2.6 version of python-pyalsaaudio?  SHR-testing has v2.5, and there doesn't seem to be one for SHR-unstable.
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01:50.52Toaster`hrm, SHR-unstable seems to not be respecting the linking of /etc/localtime to my timezone of choice, always linking to NST.  Any ideas?
01:51.40DaveNST?
01:51.50Daveyeah there's a thing on the wiki It hink about that, from way back when
01:51.55Toaster`Newfoundland Standard Time apparently
01:52.03DaveI wasn't aware the issue still remained though
01:52.19Toaster`hrm, I'll poke through the wiki again then
01:52.43Davedid you reboot and it reset it or something?
01:53.25Toaster`I flashed SHR-unstable last night, and I've seen this before.  I'm a couple reboots in now.
01:53.49Toaster`my localtime is pointing to my correct TZ though... it's just being ignored.
01:53.52Toaster`odd
01:54.34Toaster`system clock is correct to UTC, so it's just a TZ problem
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02:06.33DaveAh, yeah that's weird and lame, Toaster :)
02:06.38DaveSince usually the problem is the other way around
02:07.19Toaster`yeah, it's rather annoying to boot.
02:07.55Toaster`and my google-fu seems weak tonight, no luck finding anything on this issue
02:09.35Toaster`hardware clock is sync'd correctly as well.  I'm rather lost :/
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02:11.35Davehmm
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02:11.49Toaster`interesting...
02:12.08Toaster`I think the actual tz data file is messed up
02:12.13Daveo.O
02:12.43Toaster`zdump is reporting NDT and NST internally, opposed to EST/EDT
02:12.50Daveright
02:13.00DaveSo obviously it's not set right
02:14.46johnsu01so, what do you suppose happens if I leave a compatible nokia battery in, that doesn't report charge?
02:15.01johnsu01leave it charging, I mean
02:15.17Davepresumably it charges??
02:15.22Davehave you tested this? :p
02:15.27johnsu01will it explode? :)
02:15.31Davethough it may not report charge (correctly), as I've been told
02:15.36johnsu01it does not report charge
02:15.41Daveright
02:15.43Toaster`Dave: Could you run `zdump -v /usr/share/zoneinfo/EST` and let me know if NDT/NST is referenced in yours?
02:15.47Daveon the freerunner you mean
02:15.53johnsu01right
02:15.55Davebecause it lacks the CC (coulomb counter)
02:16.51Davewhich is from what the gta02 identifies the charge
02:18.00johnsu01at least the light still stays a pretty blue
02:18.09johnsu01though I get low battery warnings
02:20.48Daveright
02:20.56Davewell hey, if it dies, you know it wasn't really charging ;D
02:20.58Toaster`ok, I have a workaroudnin place, using the region name TZ.  The issue still remains though, that the basic TZ data is buggered
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02:21.53johnsu01Dave: just hope for my sake that it does not explode.. I think there is a hardware switch for that sort of thing but we'll see
02:21.59Dave:D
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02:45.55docscrutinizer2we tried to implement detonator selfdestruct by bat abuse, work in progress though. results are discouraging so far
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02:48.57docscrutinizer2rumor is it might reduce battery life by deteriorating cell chemics if you don't "stop" charging. Upper limt charge voltage is controlled by hardware though, independently from culoumb counter
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02:52.53docscrutinizer2johnsu01: so this means: 1)bat won't explode. 2)chargelevel wont work. 3)charging state is managed by PMU chip for all battypes, so charging _should_ be indicated (at least it's possible to do)
02:55.09fredrinwhat's this? http://downloads.openmoko.org/distro/experimental/NeoFreerunner/lowlevel_foo-gta02v5-1.3.1+gitr4876+cc0a665d938f3da5cc63054feb31d57c582233a2-r1.bin
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02:58.23fredrin?
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05:00.26arg0is there an email client for SHR?
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06:30.25*** topic/#openmoko is Developers, please join #openmoko-cdevel | Freerunner is in stock in some resellers. | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Quickstart | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS_Problems | Keyboard numbers for 2008.8 : slide finger up on the keyboard
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07:56.12methrilmorning
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08:21.33Hopscotchgood morning
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10:09.12panickingHi all
10:09.13panicking:)
10:09.21panickingthank's for yesterday
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10:14.25PaulFertserpanicking: Hey, how is your muxer going? :)
10:14.40muxeim fine ;)
10:14.55PaulFertsermuxe: good to hear :)
10:15.47panickingI start to change the android part to support different descriptor
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10:16.16panickingThe muxer part is ready but I use one channel
10:16.19panickingfor now
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10:39.20panickingPaulFertser: I have some trouble with the muxer, sometimes
10:39.31panickingIt can't open the channel(s)
10:39.47panickingso the command does't arrive
10:39.49panickingon send
10:40.05panickingthe control channel don't receive the answer
10:42.22panickingGSM0710_TYPE_UA
10:42.33panickingi'm waitng for an UA message
10:43.39laenHmmm. Has there been a fix to the buzzing sounds when calling someone yet? Kinda forgot where to look for it.
10:44.57PaulFertserpanicking: do you wake up the modem before trying this?
10:45.25panicking<PROTECTED>
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10:45.47panickingI have a similar code of the gsmmuxd
10:45.48panickingI do a reset sequence
10:45.52panickingThe only differnce
10:45.56panickingis that I don't send
10:46.08PaulFertserpanicking: nope, i'm not talking about powering it on.
10:46.33panicking<PROTECTED>
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10:46.37panicking<PROTECTED>
10:46.39panickingthe at sequence
10:46.41panicking?
10:46.53panickingor it's again wrong
10:46.56PaulFertserpanicking: i mean the calypso likes to sleep. If you wait for like 10 seconds not sending anything to it, it silently goes to sleep. And it can lose some first characters you send it while it's asleep.
10:47.09panickingso the special
10:47.10panickingchar
10:47.22PaulFertserpanicking: btw, i think some will consider that you should use pastebin of some kind instead of "spamming" the channel.
10:47.39panickingsorry
10:49.48PaulFertserpanicking: to wake up the modem probabably sending 0x1A and waiting 0.2 seconds is enough.
10:50.11PaulFertserpanicking: but you should do it every time when the last communication with the modem was more than 7 or so seconds ago.
10:50.38laenpanicking: paste.pocoo.org please
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10:51.08panickingI see, I can put question on it?
10:51.30laenpanicking: can even use a Vim plugin, commandline python tool or emacs tool to use it.
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10:55.18PaulFertserpanicking: calypso sucks, you have to workaround it.
10:55.41panickingI dont find the x1A sending in the gsmmuxd code
10:55.54PaulFertserpanicking: pastebin is designed to paste some code snippets/logs, etc. You should use it to store the the logs/code and give a link on IRC.
10:56.03panickingok
10:56.11panickingthanks
10:56.12PaulFertserpanicking: gsmmuxd doesn't send it, because FSO does it itself
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10:56.54PaulFertserpanicking: but the new muxer will do it itself.
10:57.43PaulFertserpanicking: and, btw, a decent pastebin provide syntax highlighting and line numbers as an additional bonus :)
10:59.10PaulFertserpanicking: btw, if it's not too hard you can simply retry the channel opening command after 1 sec timeout, that's what worked in gsm0710muxd for a month now without issues.
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10:59.50panickingOk
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11:19.28gfatherhello guys
11:19.37gfatherany one tried FYP  ?
11:20.16rhkfinAnyone know where to find zenity for 2008.12? automated.it doesn't provide it any more.
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11:22.30Eirik_hey guys, I just got my freerunner so I figured I'd join this channel
11:23.10SpeedEvilCome back in a year, when it's ready.
11:23.20SpeedEvilis sort-of-kidding.
11:23.20Eirik_yeah seriously
11:23.31SpeedEvilWelcome.
11:23.34Eirik_this thing is hilariously broken but that's half the fun, isn't it
11:23.35Eirik_thanks
11:23.50SpeedEvilyou've flashed the newest software?
11:24.08SpeedEvilThat should be somewhat differently broken than the shipped image.
11:24.11Eirik_I just managed to ssh to the freerunner via usb in OS X
11:24.41Eirik_I'm thinking of just installing android, but flashing the Qi bootloader is giving me trouble
11:25.27Eirik_there''s no setenv either..
11:25.35SpeedEvilSorry - no FR - no spare cash for one - so haven't kept up.
11:25.43SpeedEvil(GTA01)
11:26.46Eirik_it's sad and funny how the freerunner is more than twice as expensive as an iphone
11:26.59SpeedEvilWell - it's a very unfair comparison in some ways.
11:27.03SpeedEvilFrom the practical side.
11:27.29SpeedEvilYou go to build 5000 phones, and you have to find the few vendors of phone parts that will sell them to you.
11:28.10SpeedEvilYou have to pay maybe - for those parts you can source - maybe nearly twice what apple does for parts bought in 10 millions.
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11:32.35CM_workIn sweden the iPhone cost more than 10 times as much
11:32.49SpeedEvilThere is that too.
11:32.52CM_workIf you count the 2 year plan you have to sign up for to get the iPhone
11:33.09SpeedEvilIn the UK - IIRC - it's not quite that bad.
11:33.15SpeedEvilIt's about 5*
11:37.58PaulFertserEirik_: what troubles do you have with Qi?
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11:39.14gfatherPaulFertser hay m8
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11:39.49gfatherguys anyone tries Fyp ?
11:39.56Eirik_PaulFertser: it's not specifically Qi at this point, just getting SCP to work. Baby steps.
11:40.12PaulFertsergfather: Hey :)
11:40.34gfather:) , hows things going ?
11:40.41PaulFertserEirik_: scp is not related to bootloader at all.
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11:41.29Eirik_PaulFertser: somebody in my colloquy group managed to delete the keyboard, so I'm SCPing over an ipk to install the Mofi keyboard
11:41.38torporhiya folks
11:41.41PaulFertserEirik_: what distro are you using?
11:42.01torporjust dug my neo1973 and freerunner out of the dusty box they'd been sitting in for a few months, charged 'em up, and am now wondering what i should run on them for fun.
11:42.21PaulFertsertorpor: SHR unstable
11:42.26torporanyone got any recommendations what i should put on either of these for a bit of fun today?  is there a 'state of the art' all-in-one distro that has a bunch of cool apps in it?
11:42.28PaulFertsertorpor: or Debian
11:42.33torpori've looked at the kustomizer script ..
11:42.38PaulFertsertorpor: forget it
11:42.40torporand FDOM
11:42.43PaulFertserToo
11:42.46Eirik_PaulFertser: whatever is installed by default
11:42.51torporso SHR unstable is interesting
11:42.54torpor?
11:43.04PaulFertserEirik_: then i'm not interested at all.
11:43.21PaulFertsertorpor: can be used as a phone even. And yes, interesting.
11:43.32rhkfintorpor: the current kustomizer is ok, I'm working on 0.3 with a bunch of fixes.
11:43.46Eirik_PaulFertser: yeah this isn't very exciting
11:43.52torporwhat about wifi and bluetooth and .. dare i say it .. 'cool' apps?
11:43.59PaulFertserEirik_: no wonder, nobody is supposed to use it anyway.
11:44.11Eirik_PaulFertser: I'm working on installing android, though
11:45.05Eirik_I just need to change to Qi to get past the 2 mb kernel limit
11:45.05PaulFertsertorpor: wifi on FR works, GTA01 can have some problems. Bluetooth works too. Cool apps? I think there're some.
11:45.05torporso will shr run on neo1973?  i wanna use it for something..
11:45.06PaulFertserEirik_: i don't care about android as well.
11:45.22torporokay i'm about to flash my gta01 with shr unstable then .. ;)
11:45.28PaulFertsertorpor: the latest shr unstable runs on gta01 reasonably well. Bugreports are welcome.
11:45.45torporok then off i go.
11:45.53torporand on fr i guess i'll try FDOM or kustomizer 0.3 when its ready
11:46.10PaulFertsertorpor: though wifi on FR still has some arcane problems that can only be resolved by an update from Atheros which we all wait.
11:46.29torporthats bad news
11:46.32torpori had hoped all that would be fixed by now
11:46.34torporshee-it.
11:46.35PaulFertsertorpor: FDOM is dead. Kustomizer is dead. Can't you understand guys, that OM2008.x is dead?
11:46.46PaulFertsertorpor: wifi works for most people in the most situations.
11:47.46torporom is dead?
11:47.49PaulFertsertorpor: though the work to get the latest kernel on GTA01 running is ongoing and that affects wifi reliability on gta01 a lot.
11:48.06PaulFertsertorpor: OM2008.x is dead. OM-the-company as alive.
11:48.33torporok so i should run shr then?
11:48.39torpordoing it now... ;)
11:48.44PaulFertsertorpor: that means, only relatively old kernel can be run on gta01 atm, so you wifi is even more unreliable on gta01 comparing to gta02.
11:49.07torporgta01 has wifi?
11:49.13torpordid not know that! :)
11:49.28PaulFertsertorpor: doesn't it? I don't own a gta01, so can't say for sure :)
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11:50.53PaulFertserHm, yes, it doesn't. One thing less to worry :)
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11:53.48rhkfinPaulFertser: why's Kustomizer dead?
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11:57.45rhkfinPaulFertser: check kurppa.fi/freerunner/kustomizer_devel
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12:00.23torporcoz its based on OM?
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12:01.41PaulFertserrhkfin: Kustomizer is for customizing OM2008.x, right?
12:03.24rhkfinPaulFertser: yes. And I agree that I should move to FSO soon :)
12:03.48PaulFertserrhkfin: I understand that you made a considerable effort to make Kustomizer. But alas, OM2008.x is not supported anyway...
12:04.15rhkfinAgreed
12:04.24torporrhkfin: i'm putting kustomizer on my freerunner right now just to check it out
12:04.27torporand shr on my neo
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12:05.09PaulFertserrhkfin: i wonder, what made you put so much time in the distribution that was obviously doomed from like september?
12:05.49rhkfinPaulFertser: lack of knowledge and a need to be able to set up the stuff easily. This allow me to try whatever I want and then return back to the original easily.
12:06.35PaulFertserrhkfin: are you one of those who doesn't like rootfs on uSD concept? ;)
12:06.59panickingPaulFertser: I decide at the end to add a timeout to the atcommand like in the ogsmd
12:07.28torporrhkfin: seems like kustomizer 0.3 has some bugs no?  i'm getting a few segfaults ..
12:07.30rhkfintorpor: opkg.org might has some broken packages -> everything will not install that's supposed to be installed
12:07.38torporah i see
12:07.40rhkfintorpor: broken packages at opkg.org :(
12:07.46torporbummer
12:07.59rhkfinSame thing with some dependencies: zenity is not available any more etc..
12:08.48torporbummer
12:08.52torporeasy to fix?
12:09.19PaulFertserpanicking: btw, i don't have a proof or anything but i suspect that some incoming unsolicited messages shouldn't reset the timeout. To be on the safe side i disabled resetting it on incoming responses. Otherwise it's a working solution, but it's clearly a layering violation, so you better do it in RIL instead (imho).
12:09.55rhkfinI don't know. I have no idea where to find zenity (-> wlan-application from opkg.org not installed). And I don't know about opkg.org. Too bad people upload some broken stuff there.
12:10.12torporopkg.org seems to go out of date pretty fast
12:10.29PaulFertserrhkfin: too bad people don't properly integrate their stuff in OE.
12:10.38rhkfinsome packages there fail with md5sum mismatch
12:10.43rhkfinPaulFertser: right, that's the problem :(
12:11.35*** join/#openmoko emacsian (n=ram@122.167.112.104)
12:13.07rhkfintorpor: To me it looks that everything that many packages (mostly games from opkg.org) fail but I hope the rest works ~ok.
12:13.29PaulFertserrhkfin: I think it'd be cool if you joined the SHR team to help them with stuff. It's the most active community distribution atm.
12:14.12rhkfinPaulFertser: I have to check the FSO-based stuff soon so I guess SHR is the one.
12:14.18rhkfinPaulFertser: you're working on SHR?
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12:14.29rhkfintorpor: my log: http://kurppa.fi/freerunner/kustomizer_files/kustomizer_devel_log_20090218.txt
12:15.11torporhmm.
12:15.18torporshr doesn't seem to boot.
12:15.27PaulFertserrhkfin: nope, i don't work at all. Never tried SHR myself. I use Debian with FSO. I do occasional bugfixes, a bit of Qi work and recently a bit of kernel work even.
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12:16.04rhkfinPaulFertser: ok. I'm interested in Debian (and it's workign packages :) as well but my experience is that the installer is ~broken. No sure about the current state.
12:16.14rhkfinBut gotta go.. see you.
12:16.25PaulFertserrhkfin: installer can't be broken
12:16.36PaulFertserrhkfin: it's just a shellscript, tweak to your needs :)
12:16.38PaulFertserrhkfin: luck
12:24.27torporso i guess SHR has to be run root-on-SD to be effective?
12:24.41torpori've tried flashing the lite-jffs2 image twice now and get kernel panics that it can't mount rootfs
12:24.45torporso i'll try root-on-sd then ..
12:25.36PaulFertsertorpor: no, should SHR work from NAND without issues.
12:25.45torporwell i don't know whats wrong then
12:26.22PaulFertsertorpor: make sure you flash the kernel for GTA01 and jffs rootfs for GTA01 to the write nand partitions.
12:26.36PaulFertsertorpor: look carefully at the kernel output on the console.
12:26.42PaulFertsertorpor: check your u-boot configuration
12:26.46PaulFertsertorpor: something like that.
12:27.04torporit all looks 'normal'
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12:30.58torporsn't it the case that neo1973 only has 64meg of NAND?  so i can't flash the 'big fat' 72m jffs2 file, right?
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12:34.52sigihi
12:34.54CM_worktorpor: Yeah, I've used the shr-lite image on my gta01
12:36.42sigiI'm trying out hackable:1 for the first time and it leaves me at the login prompt - is this intended that way? (trying the daily build tar.gz)
12:38.00sigi..without ssh daemon running.
12:40.08torporCM_work: do you know if the full image will work too or is it only provided for root-on-SD users?
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12:44.40torporhmm.. kustomizer seems cool, but the end result is a rather messy system
12:48.20Eirik_so.. looks like somebody managed to break this FR through ssh
12:48.28Eirik_it gets stuck at the progress bar during boot
12:49.42Eirik_apparently he "ran a bunch of commands" :-/
12:50.06Eirik_and is unable to explain this SNAFU in detail
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13:00.50CM_worktorpor: I don't think the full image works since it doesn't fit, but I haven't tried
13:01.01CM_workOn flash that is
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13:06.44kd8ikt...
13:08.23Eirik_speaking of doesn't fit, what is the deal with the FR not having a stylus socket
13:08.30Eirik_it should come bundled with a rubber band at least
13:08.31Defiant-hehehehehe
13:09.38kd8iktjust have to make everything finger friendly
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13:14.38sigidoesn't fit? That's what she said...
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13:16.44Exxteris there a way, to run the freerunner as a navigator?
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13:19.47sigiExxter: Navit
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13:20.39Zorkmansigi: have you succesfully used navit to navigate?
13:21.50shellevilI've used tangogpd
13:21.50shellevils
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13:24.40Eirik_hahaha, kernel panic on the FR
13:24.57Eirik_not syncing vfs, unable to mount root fs
13:24.59Eirik_toot
13:25.04kd8iktdunno whats funny about that
13:25.19Zorkmani had that happening a lot months agop
13:25.24Exxtersigi & shellevil: thanx very much
13:25.25Zorkmanwhen booting from SD
13:25.50Zorkmanbooting from internal flash and then rewriting the kernel fixed that mostly
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13:26.03kd8ikti finnaly took the two screws out of mine
13:26.11Eirik_getting kernel panic booting from internal flash, don't have a microsd USB adapter
13:26.15kd8iktnow the front can pop off
13:26.18Eirik_can you format ext2 in windows?
13:26.35Eirik_does that even help
13:26.45Eirik_i mean isn't this phone ghetto enough while it's in one piece
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13:28.20ZorkmanEirik_: i think you will be able to format that in windows, with something like norton partion magic
13:28.35Eirik_is that free
13:28.36Zorkmanbut you can also format it inside the fr
13:28.59Eirik_the FR is kernel panicking
13:29.01kd8ikthttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973
13:29.09Eirik_it is getting curbstomped at the end of this semester
13:29.24kd8iktpluss i know have access to the dbug port
13:29.31kd8iktnow
13:29.42Defiant-Zorkman: the last time I did something with partition magic on ext3 partitions I had to restore the backup
13:30.00ZorkmanEirik_: partition magic has a trial i think...but i know of no free software
13:30.10Defiant-gnuparted
13:30.17ZorkmanDefiant-: I only once used it, to partion part of my disk before installing linux for dualbooting
13:30.26Zorkmanso not much experience wiht it
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13:31.28Defiant-but to format without having linux installed I would use knoppix or grml
13:31.42Eirik_Zorkman: thanks for the tip, going for that
13:34.55Zorkmanyeah live cd/live usb is also a good alternative (if it detects your wireless card if you need to use one :))
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13:38.10CervajzHello there
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13:38.32CervajzSHR doesn't have enabled a wifi?
13:38.56ZorkmanCervajz are you using shr unstable?
13:39.03CervajzZorkman: yes
13:39.11Zorkmanthen you have to go to SHR Settings and click on the internet button
13:39.15Zorkmanthen you can turn the wifi radio on
13:39.18Zorkmanit works very reliable
13:39.45Zorkmananybody tried AVRCP with bluetooth? (next and previous song)
13:39.47CervajzZorkman: I'm idiot, thanks....I tried it from ssh console :]
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13:43.11CervajzAnother question - Power options in Illume conf. doesn't works?
13:43.35CervajzHave to I set power parameters in SHR settings?
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13:44.07CervajzI'm sorry for my English
13:50.36torpordoes GPS 'just work' on gta01 with SHR or is there something else i have to do to make it owrk?
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13:53.51kd8ikti had to stand outside for a min
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13:54.39torporbut i dont have to worry about adding gpsd or something like that with SHR right?
13:54.55kd8iktis it possible to flash gta02 nor without dbug board?
13:55.11kd8ikttorpor: ps ax |grep gpsd
13:55.22kd8iktits more than likely already installed
13:55.29kd8iktfso-gpsd that is
13:55.33torporhavent't ssh'd in yet
13:55.46tig|torpor:  nope GPS should work out of the box
13:55.50ZorkmanCervajz: i found that in shr unstable from 09/02 disabling suspend didn't work from illume config when the phone is not plugged in
13:55.51torporjust not sure if its there. . the neo1973 will act fine as a GPS device for me in the meantime, if it works.
13:55.54torporokay
13:55.57torporthanks
13:55.58kd8iktcause i founf this http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_NOR
13:55.59torporrebooting for the first time now ..
13:56.09Zorkmani edited a file (it's documented in the shr tweaks page)
13:57.05torpordamnit .. PUK screen came up and then crashed
13:57.07torporhow do i get it back?
13:58.05kd8iktPUK?
13:58.14torporto unlock a sim-locked phone
13:58.24torpornever mind it came back, i entered my puk, new pin, and it seemed to 'take it'
13:58.28torporbut now dialling crashes
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13:58.53kd8iktany antenna strength?
13:59.13kd8iktfso takes a few to prime the pump
13:59.17torporyup
13:59.45torporok
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14:00.34Eirik_man, I can't figure out where dfu-util ended up
14:01.30torporokay SHR looks good but man its slow.
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14:03.02kd8iktthink everything is
14:03.27kd8iktstacks and stacks of python
14:03.30torpordialler just crashes
14:03.31torporover and over
14:03.34torpordunno whats up there
14:03.39torpori suppose i should ssh in and find out
14:04.01Cervajztorpor: ? What version do you have? I don't have problem swith dialer, etc...
14:06.07torpori just got the latest SHR-unstable image for my gta01
14:06.17torporon gta02 i'm running om2008.2 with kustomizer
14:06.32torpori just want phone and gps to work on the gtra01 and on the FR i wanna play with all the latest toys .. ;)
14:07.33Eirik_when you follow the instructions for compiling dfu-util found here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:SNMoore#Mac_OS_X_Recipe_2:_Build_.26_Install_dfu-util_2 - where does the binary end up?
14:09.58*** join/#openmoko doc|home (n=doc@gentoo/contributor/doc-007)
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14:11.26torporEirik_: do 'find ./ -name dfu-util'
14:11.45Eirik_nothing :/
14:11.47torporit should put it into /opt/local/ soewhere
14:12.07Eirik_is this guide missing a step? I'm not that experienced with linux
14:12.14torporfind /opt/local -name dfu-util -print
14:12.33Eirik_nothing
14:12.45*** join/#openmoko chefzaid (n=zaid@adsl-48-196-192-81.adsl.iam.net.ma)
14:12.49torporif you did this:
14:12.49torpor$ ./configure --prefix=/opt/local
14:12.52*** join/#openmoko chomwitt (n=chomwitt@adsl103-28.lsf.forthnet.gr)
14:12.59torporthen you will need to do 'make install' before it'll go into the tree
14:13.57Eirik_torpor: I did use that configure string, but I'm getting an error doing make install.
14:14.02Eirik_let me put this on pastebin, just a second
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14:17.31Eirik_torpor: http://jqd.org/pastebin?id=143
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14:26.51torporermm that looks totally borked Eirik_ .. i'd suggest you start again or try to find dfu-util for osx already compiled somewhere
14:26.54torpori think its in ports
14:29.54sigiI just tried out Hackable:1 and it fails to register to the gsm network. Some advice?
14:32.35CM_worktorpor: I've had lots of alsa trouple with SHR
14:33.06CM_workFSO worked very well (yesterdays experimental gta01 build with 2.6.24 kernel)
14:33.37CM_workalsa trouble -> dialer crashes
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14:35.51torporokay i got it working
14:36.08torporit turns out it doesn't like it when the SIM card is a) puk-locked, b) expired (i.e. the provider disabled the card)
14:36.11torporso now it works fine
14:40.27Eirik_torpor: thanks for the analysis, I guess there's no point going through all this compiling if I can just grab binaries
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14:40.53tig|on the latest SHR in Settings does the bluetooth button actually work?
14:41.47*** join/#openmoko spir1loc (n=spir@91-113-86-112.adsl.highway.telekom.at)
14:41.54tig|because after turning it on hidd seems to behave as if it is still off
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14:45.14spir1locso how long does gta01 usually take to get a GPS fix?  like, 10 minutes or so right?
14:45.32Defiant-less
14:45.36Defiant-oh 01, sorry
14:46.36Weissspir1loc: can only comment for a Freerunner (different GPS hardware...), but in an open field with clear sky, about 15 seconds for me. about ten minutes when sitting next to a window with limited sky
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14:47.37spir1locokay i've got mine in the window
14:47.49spir1locany way i can check the gps stats from the shell?  i can'tsee my screen .. ;)
14:48.23Weissif you're using gpsd, you can point something like TangoGPS running on a different computer at the Neo's IP address
14:51.12spir1locWeiss: good to know, trying it now.
14:51.44Weissor you can just run programs on the Neo and use X forwarding over SSH to make them come up on the desktop
14:52.14spir1locdo i just leave the port # to the default?
14:52.22Weissyep
14:52.24spir1locmy gta01 is 192.168.0.202 .. so i just change the ip address?
14:52.24spir1locok
14:52.33spir1locstill says no gps found
14:53.42spir1loc'connection refused' hmm ..
14:54.35Weisswhat software are you running on the phone?
14:54.40spir1locSHR
14:54.42spir1locjust installed
14:54.45spir1locSHR-unstable
14:54.53spir1locgpsd is running
14:54.56Zorkman²
14:55.04spir1loci can telnet localhost 2947 on the phone and ii get GPSD as a response
14:55.15Weissthat sounds right
14:55.21Weissmaybe you need to tell it to listen on usb0?
14:55.29Daveo_O
14:55.34spir1loci guess my local host (linux box) is not allowing it ..
14:55.43spir1locor that
14:55.59Eirik_oh jeez.. I'm having a seriously hard time flashing Qi to my FR
14:56.33Weissspir1loc: netstat -tapn on the phone?
14:58.24spir1locinvalid option
14:58.25spir1loc-p
14:58.46spir1loctcp        0      0 127.0.0.1:2947          127.0.0.1:44895         ESTABLISHED
14:59.11Weissis there a LISTEN line with the same port number
14:59.12spir1locisn't there a dev node i can cat to see the GPS messages or something/
14:59.14Weiss?
14:59.20spir1loctcp        0      0 127.0.0.1:2947          0.0.0.0:*               LISTEN      
14:59.37Weiss/dev/ttySAC0 or something i think..
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15:00.03spir1locnothing
15:01.10spir1locwell i'll leave itin the window for a while
15:01.14WeissttySAC1 or S0 or something? should be on the Wiki somewhere. but i don't know about GTA01.
15:02.53spir1locdoesn't the gta01 need gllin or something?
15:07.00kd8iktoh yea
15:07.05kd8ikthmm
15:07.14kd8iktdunno
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15:20.39DaveTo boldly go where no freerunner has gone before...
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15:21.10torbHello! Where can I find images for the OS the freerunner ships with (2007.2, i think?)
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15:51.30agg1nhey, what's the easiest way of building xf86-video-glamo. i want to test it :)
15:51.50agg1nor it is not managable for a noob like me :(
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15:53.47agg1ns/./?
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16:02.36Eirik_so, Openmoko Flasher won't let me change the greyed out dropdown menu from "gta01" to "gta02", should I be worried about this when I have a gta02 phone?
16:03.58Weissagg1n: pretty tricky at the moment, until the bitbake recipes are properly worked out (e.g. there needs to be a small modification to Xorg itself, which hasn't been sent upstream AFAIK)
16:04.04kd8iktuse dfu-util
16:04.22Weissagg1n: in theory, set up your openembedded environment, then "bitbake xf86-video-glamo"
16:04.37Eirik_I've spent the last 2 hours trying to get dfu-util to work properly, but there's always something
16:04.42kd8ikt-c build
16:05.40Eirik_huh?
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16:06.20agg1nWeiss: ok, then i will try that :)
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16:13.19Eirik_dfu-util is acting up in the following way: http://pastebin.com/d70b70c44
16:13.24Eirik_not sure what the deal is here
16:15.30Eirik_oh heh
16:15.39Eirik_never mind!
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16:19.50jucsHi!
16:19.57jucsAnyone using fyb/zhone?
16:21.06nivi'm using debian and zhone
16:21.13niv(should be the same *G*)
16:21.19jucsDo you how to change the background in zhone?
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16:21.27jucs:-)
16:21.40nivno, i don't
16:21.54nivbut it is a python script
16:22.01nivyou should be able to edit it.
16:22.15nivthere should be somewhere the background .. or the reference to it.
16:22.35jucsAh, thanks, I'll try!
16:23.57nivtell me about your results please.
16:24.33nivfor me the background in zhone isn't first choice either.
16:25.29jucsI will :-P But I've never used python, so I'm quite blind for the right thing to search for
16:25.32Eirik_how do i make sure openmoko isn't using the SD card for anything?
16:25.54Eirik_I'm trying to format and repartition with fdisk but I get a warning: WARNING: rereading partition table failed, kernel still uses old table: Device or resource busy
16:26.25phobieEirik_: just try a reboot after fdisk
16:26.33Eirik_will do
16:27.07Eirik_also, is the 2 minute start up time because of a network call timing out or is it just that slow
16:27.47phobieIMHO it's just that slow
16:28.37Eirik_oh well
16:32.38Eirik_phobie: changes i made are still there and now it writes to the table too, thanks :)
16:34.27phobienp
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16:43.00nivmh?
16:43.14nivyou can boot the freerunner via usb0 network interface?
16:43.24nivnow that is really sick..
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16:46.41jucsUrgh, can't find anything^^
16:46.56kd8ikt<PROTECTED>
16:47.01Davejucs :o
16:47.08kd8iktmy machine is going to explode
16:47.11jucsDave :-D
16:47.17Dave:D
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16:54.15PaulFertserkd8ikt:  19:54:06  up 51 days, 10:01, 30 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.03, 0.05
16:54.51kd8iktload avg
16:54.58PaulFertserkd8ikt: that's my home pc and i'm using it alone (sometimes my brother visits me). Probably i have too many xterms open :)
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16:56.04kd8iktmaybe cause i'm messing around with compiling android shr qt and openwrt more or less at the same time ;D
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17:03.41Eirik_oh wow
17:03.45Eirik_even android is slow on this phone
17:03.48Eirik_oh well
17:05.55leinirTried Qt Extended yet?
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17:07.47PaulFertserEirik_: one has to pay for an enormous screen resolution and the architecture which lead to extremely slow uSD bus speed.
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17:11.52jucsk, firefox is a bit to heavy for the poor freerunner, I think
17:12.42max_posedonjucs, I know guy, that successfully use him.
17:12.43Eirik_PaulFertser: freedom isn't free, huh
17:13.13jucsIt's possible if you're not opening anything else, but...
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17:32.23Eirik_hahaha
17:32.31Eirik_the freerunner IS pretty bad i guess
17:32.50Eirik_what is the deal with the unintuitive button placement
17:32.59Eirik_i keep having to look for aux
17:33.09Eirik_at least i am free coding for this
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17:34.31leinirPersonally i find that the button is exactly the right place for me :)
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17:35.00leinirIt's right where my thumb is when i hold it in my left hand, and where my index finger is when holding it in the right :)
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18:10.48PBeckahoi
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18:47.53quatroxPaulFertser_: hey
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18:48.08PaulFertser_quatrox: Hey :)
18:48.54quatroxI still have the download issue... I will try to generate more useful logs when I get time
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18:50.36quatroxPaulFertser_: Should I try to upgrade the GSM FW?
18:50.46PaulFertser_quatrox: sure, to moko11beta
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18:51.08quatroxok. Then I will do that first and see if that helps
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19:13.00Serdarhi
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19:13.56SerdarI got my Openmoko today, I bought a freerunner, but it named neo is that correct?
19:14.07quatroxyes
19:14.08SerdarI also have a strange OS
19:14.16Serdarah, k
19:14.24lindi-Serdar: openmoko neo freerunner
19:14.38quatroxSerdar: neo1973 == GTA01, neo Freerunner == GTA02
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19:16.27PaulFertser_Serdar: so, what OS did you get preinstalled?
19:16.41Serdaroki, I want to update my Linux on it, because this one which is already installed can do nothing, I can only call sudoku but that's not the only thing I want, so I want flash it with the currenct snapshot of openmoko, but this dfu-util stuff which is linked here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Started_with_your_Neo_FreeRunner/de#Schritt_1:_Download_DFU-util don't exist
19:17.04SerdarPaulFertser_, no Idea I have not many functions to tell it
19:17.42PaulFertser_Serdar: there's no current snapshot of openmoko at all, serry. And i advice you to use english part of wiki, it's supposed to be maintained.
19:18.00SerdarI get openmoko before bootmenu but the bootsplash are boots
19:18.46PaulFertser_Serdar: and?
19:20.09SerdarI get this green booting splash anf after that a black screen with 6 Menues
19:20.25SerdarContacts, Dialer Locations message Settigns and Sudoku
19:20.37PaulFertser_Serdar: i don't understand anything, sorry :)
19:20.37Serdarbut Settings don't work
19:21.31SerdarI hm
19:21.35Serdar-I
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19:22.24sigiI'm trying out hackable and just wrote an sms. How do I send it?
19:22.48sigiIt uses the messages app from om 2007 I guess
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19:22.59PaulFertser_Serdar: what do you want to do with your phone? Do you like Debian?
19:23.57SerdarI prefer gentoo, but Openmoko would be nice also, but there is no http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/5/5a/Todaypage_reduced_true.png menu's at my current os.
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19:24.41laenMmm yeah, Gentoo on the Openmoko Freerunner, getting closer to gathering the information and knowledge to get to do it.
19:25.02PaulFertser_Serdar: there is no distribution called Openmoko
19:25.16laenPaulFertser_: om2007 is called Openmoko?
19:25.21Serdarhuh?
19:25.33quatroxSerdar: Do you mean OM2008.x?
19:26.04PaulFertser_laen: probably but that can't be considered for installation anyway.
19:26.11SerdarIf I don't got it completely wrong it's fic neo freerunner with openmoko/qtopia on it
19:26.32sigiSerdar: no its om2007
19:27.34ezekiel-v3shortening it down to two letters makes all the difference? Not to feed the flames, but they're all distributions of the OpenMoko platform.
19:27.57ezekiel-v3except the ones that aren't, like debian.
19:29.52laenezekiel-v3: awww, no flame :(
19:30.25ezekiel-v3haha
19:30.33PaulFertser_Serdar: there existed a fork of qtopia maintained by OM-the-company, they called it ASU, then it became 2008.x. Now that distribution is abandoned.
19:30.53mwester(like most of the things OM-the-company has delivered)
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19:31.40laenmwester++
19:31.53PaulFertser_mwester: Nelson said that he's going to work on end-user visible kernel issues. He's got GTA02 and going to use it as a phone.
19:32.18mwesterWho's Nelson
19:32.18PaulFertser_mwester: Balaji received GTA01 and said he's going to resurrect gta01 support in andy-tracking really soon.
19:32.19mwester?
19:32.32mwester(belaji) Riiiiiiiggghht.
19:32.34PaulFertser_Nelson Castillo, OM employee.
19:32.44PaulFertser_Kernel dev
19:32.45mwesterI confess I'm not overly impressed, yet.
19:33.05PaulFertser_But still. They are going to support gta01, that's a good sign.
19:33.13mwesterThey're all .tw right now -- think about it.
19:33.31mwesterWhy would anyone NOW say that they are taking on the "stable" kernel stuff?
19:33.57mwestera) because they hear the concerns of the community?
19:34.00mwesteror is it:
19:34.28mwesterb) so that Andy and possibly Werner can focus completely and exclusively on the GTA03 and 2.6.31-rc00000
19:34.29mwester?
19:34.41laenmwester: watched the fosdem video about the Debian Openmoko team yesterday, they are throwing focus on the GTA01 too again.
19:35.06mwesterDon't answer that anyone -- instead, print that out, put in on your calendar for mid-March, and then come back here and we'll see what the REAL truth is...
19:35.17laenMid march?
19:35.27mwesterYep.  It's like politics.
19:35.33ezekiel-v3what is this 'print' you speak of?
19:35.47PaulFertser_mwester: I'm sure they heard concerns of the community. Developers heard that for sure. Andy is focused on the GTA03, true. Not so for Nelson. Nelson's also got a gta01 btw.
19:36.16mwesterYou need time for the "masses" (in this case, the rabid Openmoko fan-boys on the community mailing list) to wake up and realize they've been hoodwinked --- again.
19:36.39mwesterPaulFertser_:  I **HOPE** I am wrong in this case.
19:36.40PaulFertser_mwester: btw, Andy heard the concerns "of the community" and started to try to beat Trac to shape again. And it's not easy for him, because OM-the-company is mad weird.
19:36.53mwesterBut historically, you know that I am right FAR more often than wrong.
19:37.42PaulFertser_Yes. Still i can't see how gta01 is so different from gta02. And i can't see why any kernel hacker with gta01 can get it to work. Moreover, FSO does care about gta01 as well.
19:37.49mwester(Andy and concerns and trac)  That's why I noted that they are in .tw --- it doesn't matter what Andy or Werner say or think, it is Sean who will dictate the orders.
19:38.16mwesterPaulFertser_:  (gta01) The gta01 is not the issue.  The gta02 and the token attention it will get is the issue.
19:38.37mwesterYes, the gta01 is easily fixed.  But not important because it works WONDERFULLY on 2.6.24.
19:39.10PaulFertser_If it works wonderfully, why anyone should be concerned then? ;)
19:39.48mwesterThe problem is the GTA02 -- it "mostly" works.  And with support being given to someone new, it's effectively left to the community to "finish the job".  Not that I ever expected differently, rather I note this so that the community does not wait for OM to do anything -- they are totally and completely focussed on the GTA03.
19:40.02mwesterPaulFertser_:  have I expressed any concern about the gta01?
19:40.13mwesterI have expressed concern about the GTA02.
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19:40.50PaulFertser_mwester: I thought you said something like "everything OM produces they abandon, and they shouldn't".
19:40.57mwesterRead the kernel list -- I noted that the gta01 doesn't work on 2.6.29-rtc-way-too-freaking-early, and that's all I said on it --- I don't care about kernel chasing!
19:41.05mwesterYou added the "and they shouldn't"
19:41.11PaulFertser_Ah, yes :)
19:41.16PaulFertser_Imagination :)
19:42.05PaulFertser_I started to talk about gta01 as an example that something was changed and they're trying to resurrect support for something they seemingly abandoned before.
19:42.19mwesterBut it matters not, the gta01 is like a drowning victim -- too late.  OM should focus on the living victims still in the water.
19:42.31PaulFertser_As to the qtopia, i'm glad they abandonded it, i don't think that was a decent idea anyway.
19:42.41kd8iktdrowns
19:42.55laenThey abandoned it?
19:43.07mwesterInstead they cruise off in their boat, leaving some new guy with a rubber tire tube and string to float around and try to help us all out of the water.  Riiight.  Good plan, OM.
19:44.00laenAnd we're to expect the GTA03 and GTA04 around the same time this year.
19:44.01mwesterPaulFertser_:  Yes -- ASU aka OM2008 was like those WW-II tanks fitted so that they could float --- a really really really bad idea.  Astonishingly bad.
19:44.17mwesterlaen:  Only if you do not consider the business aspects.
19:44.23laenNow that blows me away.. we still don't have a fully fixed GTA02 and they're throwing new ones on the market allready.
19:44.30laenWell, okay.
19:44.58mwesterlaen:  they have two unsucessful products to date; they are way late -- I ratherr suspect that the investors have given Sean one final chance with the GTA03.
19:45.56PaulFertser_mwester: imho current andy-tracking is in very decent shape on GTA02, i don't see why you don't like it that much.
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19:45.56mwesterPaulFertser_:  when it's  as stable as 2.6.24 was, I will applaud.
19:45.56PaulFertser_mwester: what should i do to experience instability?
19:45.56laenmwester: you don't think the massive buys from the community of the GTA02 got them enough money for the GTA0{34} project?
19:45.58mwesterReading the IRC channels and the mailing list makes it quite clear that even attempting to build it is an adventure ;)
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19:46.21mwesterlaen:  massive?   Puny, in terms of what it takes to turn a profit on such an item.
19:46.33laenPlus, it's aimed at developers, with the community as a nice input in terms of usability, ideas and money.
19:46.49panickingWell I think that the gta02 can be use to costumize other devices
19:46.49laenAh on idea about what profit it would actually make tbh, it was a guess.
19:46.51PaulFertser_mwester: not so true. It builds most of the time. In fact, i never was lucky enough to fetch an unbuildable state.
19:47.14panickingI have a lot of ideas
19:47.16panickingin this area
19:47.38laenThey have plans, we have panicking =)
19:47.58mwesterPaulFertser_:  You have blessed hardware.  Your hardware, if my memory serves me correctly, was running 2.6.28-nothing when others couldn't even boot those images!  The rest of us mere mortals have to put up with constant pain -- but read the mailing list to find out what that is... and if you DO figure out how to reproduce the issues, then you are ALSO able to fix them -- that's the sort of problem we currently have.
19:48.04mwesterThat's the definition of "unstable" too
19:48.51mwesterlaen:  by-the-way, the gta02 was aimed at consumers, until well after it started to ship when OM redefined it's audience ;)
19:49.39PaulFertser_mwester: the only hardware issue i know of is WSOD and NSOD. WSOD took very long to workaround (and it was done by a community member), true. NSOD was "fixed" very promptly. Otherwise, i don't remember any real issues.
19:49.58mwesterBut in any case, for those who wish to be optimists - go ahead - I guess all news from Om is "good news!"  For the realists, just know that it is the gta03 or bust for Openmoko, and the gta02 (based on Paul's news) is now a community owned device.
19:50.35PaulFertser_BTW, i'm a pessimist usually.
19:51.10mwesterPaulFertser_:  the wifi is/was not an issue?  You should have told Werner that yours was working PERFECTLY then!!!  He wasted much time fixing it, if it was not broken.
19:51.12PaulFertser_OM does pay for FSO development. And they directly support GTA02. As to the kernel -- currently it's stable enough.
19:51.20mwesterShucks!
19:51.27mwesterWerner STILL thinks there are wifi problems.
19:51.32panickinglaen: openmoko can do a custom oriented cover based on the gta02 hardware
19:51.33mwesterPaul knows there to not be any!
19:51.40PaulFertser_mwester: The wifi problems are reality.
19:51.47PaulFertser_mwester: For everybody, i do agree.
19:51.47mwesterAh, you didn't say that.
19:51.58mwesterMy point being that you are overly optimistic.
19:52.32mwesterThere are MANY problems -- most recently, we finally remove the bandaids on the audio stuff and find a festering wound of horrers beneath -- who's fixing that?
19:52.37sigiWhere do I find info on how to install SHR unstable directly onto microsd?
19:52.48PaulFertser_mwester: but. Do you really think OM should have hired a team to reverse engineer the firmware? Werner does a good job on communicating with atheros and providing them with reproducible testcases.
19:52.53mwesterAh, yes -- the uSD problems -- still remain, don't they?
19:53.28mwesterPaulFertser_:  I do not speak of HOW om should fix it -- I merely point out that yuour statement that there were no problems left is incorrect.
19:53.43mwesterThere are many problem, many of them very difficult, all left.
19:53.56mwesterPerhaps some of them wil lbe fixed as Om works on the gta03.
19:54.13mwesterPerhaps it will be like the gta01; we learn to live with the problems, and are happy that it works at all. :)
19:54.21mwestershrugs.
19:54.49[df]personally I'm hoping that enough lessons will be learnt from the gta02 to make the gta03 significantly better
19:54.50mwesterDoesn't matter -- just don't let yourself be fooled.  Know the truth when you read the mailing lists and the announcements.
19:54.51PaulFertser_mwester: uSD problems are almost non-existant. For most people uSD works as is, for some lowering the frequency and/or increasing drive strength is needed.
19:55.04[df]I'm not 100% convinced this happened from gta01 -> gta02 though
19:55.13mwester"For most people"   <---- that is the definition of "unstable"  :D  I rest my case.
19:55.21PaulFertser_mwester: As to the WiFi -- that's not a kernel problem. And gta03 won't probably have wifi at all, btw ;)
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19:56.00mwesterPaulFertser_:  Again, you prove my point.  No WiFi means that there's no reason to expect that Om will continue to work to make it better.  Werner may choose to on his own time, but not Om.
19:56.18*** join/#openmoko los (n=los@194.29.137.44)
19:56.53laenThey're thinking about a 3g chip in the 04 Oo.
19:56.53PaulFertser_mwester: at least now they pay him and what is important is that he's already managed to convince atheros that there're indeed bugs in firmware.
19:57.08mwester[df]:  A lot of people have noted that the design of the gta03 is more similar to the gta01
19:57.41[df]mwester: well I guess that means they learnt *something* from the gta02... ?
19:57.56mwesterOne would think so. :)  
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19:58.28PaulFertser_As far as i understood they aim to reduce complexity to have less bugs and to make something more attractive "for the masses".
19:58.37mwesterAt least *someone* at OM learned something -- other ex-employees knew that the glamo was a disaster long before, and tried to tell Om.
19:58.48*** part/#openmoko los (n=los@194.29.137.44)
19:59.59PaulFertser_mwester: if i compare level of vendor support for some iPAQ or HTC to that of OM i think we should be mad happy with what we have.
20:00.18mwesterI don't accept that logic.
20:02.09mwesterOM claimed to be something more than compaq or HTC.  People purchased product based on that promise.  The community invested thousands of free hours of effort based on that promise.  Now we find that they cannot deliver.  Of course we can unhappy about it.
20:02.28PaulFertser_Many vendor-unsupported ports were quite successful. They gathered a healthy community around, wrote decent kernel patches, pushed upstream, etc. What we have is bunch of clueless end-users who never seen backtrace. Why not many community hackers are involved is beyond my understanding.
20:02.30*** join/#openmoko DerHorst_ (n=Horst@e176117183.adsl.alicedsl.de)
20:04.10mwesterPaulFertser_:  I think you have not considered enough -- if you think about it, you will easily see why the "cream of the crop" of developers wish to have no association with this project.  Start by reading Harald's blog entries on the subject ;)
20:05.01mwesterThere are a number of other very prominent figures who were watching early on, some of whom have gta01 pre-production units -- they also have blogged and commented in IRC on why they have gone off to do something else.
20:05.06*** join/#openmoko JanC (n=janc@lugwv/member/JanC)
20:05.06mwesterAsk Raster, for example.
20:05.16mwesterOr ask why XorA is no longer associated.
20:05.20mwesterThey will all tell you.
20:05.25mrehare they selling these things cheap to developers?
20:05.32mwesterNot any more.
20:05.37mrehthe neo freerunner that is
20:05.59mmontourIt's not hard to find reasons why community hackers are not involved. Suddenly shitcanning a project and switching to a completely different framework (e.g. ASU, or uboot/Qi) is part of it.
20:06.25PaulFertser_mwester: it's strange to see how stupid management issues at OM can easily alienate the community while no vendor support at all doesn't.
20:06.38*** join/#openmoko divanorama (n=divan@ivanco.convex.ru)
20:06.52PaulFertser_mmontour: strong community can fork anything they like if it's abandoned "mainline"
20:06.52mwesterPaulFertser_:  I agree!
20:07.17mwesterPaulFertser_:  I think it is the difference between *no* communication, and not being told the truth.
20:08.44mwesterFor example, Linksys never made any commitments to the community at all -- so there were no expectations of support from them or assistance, or a working kernel -- it's all a matter of expectations.  Openmoko sold a vision (if you ever read or saw any of Sean's speeches), and the vision had high expectations -- and they could not deliver on them.
20:08.45PaulFertser_mwester: yes. But if one asks the developers (even if they work for OM), they give the answers. OM lacks proper communication, but you can ask devs directly.
20:08.46[df]I guess compaq etc don't *need* a community of developers, whereas OM does
20:08.46mmontourThe build system is another barrier. Today for the first time in months I managed to complete a fso-unstable build, and even then I had to hand-edit the perl-native bitbake recipe.
20:09.01Serdarhmhow's flashing uboot?
20:09.32mrehI went to look on the FAQ page to answer a simple question, however I couldn't find the answer to: "Can i use this as a phone in the UK?"
20:09.38PaulFertser_mmontour: OE is arcane, true. But rwhitby had working public config for months!
20:09.42mwesterthinks [df] has a very good observation; the Linksys WRT54G at least ran a kernel and was stable when the hackers began working on it.
20:10.31Serdarthere is no uboot.bin but a and_up_u-boot.bin is that equal?
20:10.36PaulFertser_mwester: if a hacker trusts a manager (Sean), that means the hacker is dead wrong. :)
20:10.41mmontour(afk - lunch)
20:10.59mwesterPaulFertser_:  that is true!  But Sean is also a very very good salesman.
20:11.00PaulFertser_Serdar: grab the latest u-boot from http://people.openmoko.org/andy
20:12.01SerdarPaulFertser_, what is this andy-tracking stuffß
20:12.08PaulFertser_mwester: You say that hackers had some expectations. I wonder why did they trusted Sean's speaches. "Show me the code" is the universal rule.
20:12.27lindi-mwester: but it still uses non-free wifi driver?
20:12.35mwesterPaulFertser_:  And they left as soon as they saw the code ;)
20:12.49PaulFertser_Serdar: andy-tracking is a kernel branch where the development is going.
20:13.28Serdar[   ] uImage-moredrivers-GTA02_stable-b749274fadec33a6.bin        07-Feb-2009 20:17  2.3M   I should use this right?
20:13.52PaulFertser_Serdar: it depends. What distro are you going to use?
20:14.03Serdarom2008.12
20:14.22Serdarbetter to say I want to try it out
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20:14.36PaulFertser_Serdar: then i don't care. I know that any andy-tracking (that means .28 and .29) kernels are unsupported by this abandoned distro.
20:14.44SerdarI want also test qtextended to see which one I like most
20:15.00PaulFertser_Serdar: you'll like most a Nokia cellphone
20:15.11Serdarhm?
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20:16.40Serdarom2008.12 is the latest from openmoko.org, wha it should be abandoned?
20:16.57PaulFertser_mwester: the hardware is not _that_ bad. The schem is available, most of the datasheets, etc. And overall project state is not _that_ bad. OM sometimes acts offensive to the hacker community, i agree. But it's OM-the-company, not the developers themselves. I see no reason why all real hackers are feeling that alienated.
20:18.01PaulFertser_Serdar: because it's crap. That's why OM-the-company abandoned it. Their managers did a bad job at managing and choosed a stupid way. They failed, now OM2008.x is all that's left from that. AFAIK.
20:18.44Serdarhm and which one is prefered now?
20:19.01PaulFertser_Serdar: by whom? End-users? Then SHR unstable.
20:19.49*** join/#openmoko reinouts (n=reinout@s559355fe.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
20:20.43SerdarI want to use phone and want to be able to use C/C++ maybe some other languages like java or ruby
20:20.52lindi-debian
20:20.52mwesterPaulFertser_:  Well...  Ok, I guess I will say that parts of the hardware are not too bad.  But let's consider the echo, and gsm buzz, the poor audio response -- YOU have fixed that yourself, but there are few others in the community who can solder and cut up circuits themselves, and Sean's vision speeches did not make it sound as if the hardware would require SMD soldering skills in order to make it work as a telephone.
20:20.54PaulFertser_mwester: you know, i'm an end-user. But I don't feel _that_ bad about OM hardware (which is crap, but a known crap, that can be workarounded) and about FSO. Also i'm satisfied enough with the kernel and i think like 80% will be satisfied too.
20:22.20PaulFertser_mwester: the echo is due to stupid calypso, and that is workarounded now with the magic command. The buzz is a major hardware fuck up, i agree; though can be fixed in any repair workshop relatively easily.
20:22.55PaulFertser_Serdar: yes, i agree, Debian
20:22.58mwesterPaulFertser_:  You'll notice that I'm still around -- as disapointed as I am in Om and everything they touch, I still believe in the idea of a totally open phone.  And as  bad as it is, Om is all we have.  The difference is that unlike many others, I do not belive that I have to remain silent about the problems, just because Openmoko is marginally better than the other venders.
20:23.27PaulFertser_Who believes he should be silent about the problems?
20:23.55mwesterAsk the openmoko fanboys on the mailing lists ;)  Just post a problem, and they'll tell you to shut up.
20:24.00mwesterOr go buy a nokia.
20:24.47PaulFertser_Openmoko fanboys are clueless users attracted by the Sean's PR. I don't care about them much.
20:25.11PaulFertser_I only care about hackers.
20:25.28leinirThere's a lot of fanbois, yup, and they are... sort of annoying :)
20:25.32mwesterThe complaints of even the most beginning of users are all valid.  Yet Om listened to none of them when they should have, and now it seems that they cannot listen to those voices (because they must get the gta03 out or die).
20:25.34*** join/#openmoko geaaru (n=geaaru@host85-211-dynamic.44-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
20:26.08*** join/#openmoko badcloud (n=raanan@ti400720a342-0176.bb.online.no)
20:26.13badcloudheyz
20:26.34PaulFertser_mwester: It's like selling gentoo distribution to a beginner users. They will complain that nothing works, but no dev can help them.
20:26.48Davebadcloud o/
20:26.54badcloudhow's it, Dave>
20:26.56badcloud?
20:27.00mwesterTrue.  But that doesn't meant their complaints are invalid.  Just that gentoo was mis-represented to them.
20:27.10Defiant-PaulFertser_: I thing its quite fun
20:27.26Davesucky :P
20:27.26Slaxxeraw is there  a current andy-tracking jffs2 file anywhere?
20:27.32mwesterwonders if Dave actually has any working GTA02's left.
20:27.39Dave:(
20:27.47DaveWow, that hurt.
20:27.53PaulFertser_mwester: it was, but do you think that all the hacker should be so offended that beginner users were screwed that they all will want to leave?
20:28.12badcloudanyone know whether or not contacts are saved to the sim card in the telephony stack (qtopia), 2008.12?
20:28.22badcloud...or how to set that it does?
20:28.26badcloud*will
20:28.28mwesterGoodness no.  That's why I pointed you to the blogs from the highly-respected developers -- they published their own reasons.
20:28.29PaulFertser_badcloud: i heard it uses sqlite
20:28.36badcloudok
20:28.54mwesterPaulFertser_:  did you ever read Harald's comments?  And I expect you've spoken with Raster...
20:28.56badcloudI might just pop the sim into my old phone and check
20:29.14PaulFertser_mwester: And still Raster does a lot for OM community.
20:29.34mwesterIndirectly.  So does Harald - indirectly.
20:29.37PaulFertser_mwester: no, i didn't read Harald comments :(
20:30.00badcloudbut I figured asking here first might save me some time
20:30.24PaulFertser_badcloud: there're some scripts on the wiki to import/export contacts from qtopia
20:30.41mwesterBut anyway, you might find it amusing that I _am_ patching qt extended to work with the 2.6.28 kernel...
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20:30.45badcloudthanks, I'll check
20:31.03PaulFertser_mwester: yes, i can't understand why any hacker will want to have a working qtopia, true.
20:32.04Dave:P
20:32.05PaulFertser_mwester: but i understand that everyone can have his fun however he likes. (/me looking at ReactOS guys)
20:32.12DaveBecause they're a crazy hacker, duh :p
20:32.17mwesterPaulFertser_:  Having looked more closely at Android, I am more frighted than ever of Android.  SHR seems to not be progressing so quickly.  And I've always found Qtopia/QT Extended to be a compromise that is somewhat acceptable to me.
20:32.18Daveand they're dirty and naughty :D
20:32.36Daveright
20:33.24mwesterI just find FSO is too slow; can't have my phone start ringing AFTER the other party has already hung up!  And the broken 5.0 milestone baseline was a dissapointment in so many ways (although that is an OE problem, not an FSO issue).
20:33.25PaulFertser_mwester: but what does it work for? Telephony? That's what "dumb cellphones" are for. As to having a portable GNU/Linux PDA, qtopia doesn't cut it.
20:33.58mwesterPaulFertser_:  The alternative is that I have nearly $1000 worth of *USELESS* hardware on my desk?
20:34.13[df]mwester: *frightened* of android?
20:34.16mwesterIf it can do nothing more than a dumb cellphone, then it is better than nothing at all.
20:34.30vininim[df]: JAVA
20:34.33mwester[df]:  every time you turn around, something is closed or proprietary.
20:34.34vininim;)
20:34.37DaveGAH
20:34.46PaulFertser_mwester: to be honest, i'm using what's basically FSO ms5 for like a month and i managed to answer the calls before they were hung up. So it's slow, but not catastrophically.
20:35.08PaulFertser_mwester: Will you be happy if this $1000 worth of hardware will become a dumb cellphone?
20:35.09laenSo anyone who tried koolu's beta3 yet?
20:35.15DaveLAEN
20:35.16vininimqtopia as the best I got as far as telephony go, but then I wanted to mess with GPS and media playing...
20:35.17[df]mwester: but that can't really be a threat to OM can it?
20:35.19lindi-mwester: how large latency do you measure?
20:35.19laenDAVE
20:35.19mwesterPaulFertser_:  Happier than I am now.
20:35.24laen\o/
20:35.28mwester[df]:  it is the salvation of OM
20:35.29Dave^_^
20:35.47[df]ah, so you think OM (the company) will support it?
20:36.07mwesterlindi-:  I didn't measure it -- it rang, I tried to pick it up -- nobody there, then wife called on other phone and complained that it rang and rang and went to voicemail.
20:36.16PaulFertser_mwester: hm, i thought having a hardware for messing with kernel and debian etc is more fun than having a dumb cell phone.
20:36.16mwester[df]:  They must.
20:36.30mwesterPaulFertser_:  I have ... /me counts...
20:36.37lindi-mwester: please try to reproduce it
20:37.27mwesterPaulFertser_:  5 NSLU2 systems, 2 DSM-G600 systems, 3 Treo 650's, a pair of GTA01s, and a pair of GTA02s -- plus several intel laptops, a 1U server, and a few desktop/tower systems.
20:37.49mwesterPaulFertser_:  that's 14 ARM systems that can run Debian.
20:37.51PaulFertser_mwester: then why did you need a GTA0x at all for?
20:37.51Dave:D
20:37.59Daveno omap3? :(
20:38.04PaulFertser_s/why/what/
20:38.16mwesterPaulFertser_:  :)  To be a replacement for my old Treo650 as a smartphone.  Which it cannot do.
20:39.04mwesterIt's now two years since I heard about Openmoko -- and my Treo650 was old then.  Now my Treo650 is even older, but is STILL a far superior smartphone than anything running on a GTA0x!
20:39.23toggles_wmwester: don't be jealous!
20:39.24PaulFertser_mwester: honestly, i can't understand all that fuss about smartphones. If i needed a very reliable phone functionality, i'd carried a cell phone with me.
20:40.11lindi-mwester: why don't you run the treo650 software on fr?
20:40.14Davemwester ,yeah, I'm in the same boat there
20:40.14PaulFertser_BTW, i can't on Earth understand why iPAQ hx4700 was discontinued. Looks like it's an amazingly decent PDA even nowadays.
20:40.16mwesterPaulFertser_:  That's part of where you have an "impedance mismatch" with most of the community -- they all expect it to work as a phone; you think of it as a Nokia Tablet sort of device, that just happens to have a GSM attached to it.
20:40.18vininimPaulFertser_: tell OpenMoko Co. to market FreeRunner as a mini computer with GSM radio then
20:40.24Gnutoomwester, why is the treo650 superior? what does it run? angstrom? debian?
20:40.28DaveI got a hold of six z72's about a year after OM
20:40.38PaulFertser_vininim: i don't care about marketing
20:40.46Dave(they use identical hardware to the t650)
20:40.58Daveand they run e/illume faster and better :|
20:41.10PaulFertser_I thought that what this device is was obvious from the specs.
20:41.33vininima smartphone
20:41.41PaulFertser_mwester: don't forget that most of the community can hardly use iptables.
20:41.44vininimyeah, everyone thought that =)
20:41.57lindi-PaulFertser_: they should a have a quiz you have to complete before ordering
20:41.58[df]in fairness the gta02 is a rather decent linux pda if running debian
20:42.06PaulFertser_lindi-: why not?
20:42.07mwesterPaulFertser_:  why should iptables be a prerequisite for using a PDA or even any Linux system?
20:42.17lindi-PaulFertser_: and i'm not joking, it might really be good idea
20:42.27toggles_w[df]: email? calander? or just contacts?
20:42.45mwesterthinks this conversation is getting rather silly, with quizzes and technical criteria...
20:42.50PaulFertser_lindi-: we have a repair forum that requires to answer several simple questions about electrotechnics before registering. No big deal for me.
20:42.50[df]well it can run mutt and cal fine right?
20:43.22lindi-mwester: but it could be a test of whether the people are capable of reading the man page :)
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20:43.32vininim[df]: ;), but the input method is kind of annoying
20:44.10mwesterlindi-:  the hallmark of good software design is that it does not require one to read the manual in order to make the device perform it's basic function.
20:44.11[df]true
20:44.17toggles_wexactly, how the hell do you type?
20:44.36Defiant-lindi-: as long as you don't ask them how to use openssl - that would be torture :P
20:44.45lindi-mwester: yep but that is not quite reality with current phone software :)
20:44.52mwesterReally?
20:45.16mwesterI can take a 6-year old child into any cell phone store, and they can dial a call on any of the phones in the place...
20:45.21mwesterThey can't do that on an Om phone.
20:45.28lindi-mwester: yes that's what i mean
20:45.32vininimit's like that guy wanting to use emacs on freerunner: unless he implements some input stuff(accel, ts scribing, speech recognition) you lose the power emacs give you with a keyboard
20:45.47mwesterAh, I misunderstood you lindi- :)
20:46.25lindi-mwester: since that is the current situation we should prevent people from accidentally buying the phone if they can't even pass the quiz :)
20:46.38PaulFertser_mwester: i don't agree. Why not read manual first? Not reading manual is a disgusting custom imho.
20:46.59[df]doesn't tend to read the manual for consumer electronics
20:47.16PaulFertser_[df]: sure, they're useless as they're not intended to be read by hackers
20:47.28mwesterPaulFertser_:  do you read the back of the cereal box in which your breakfast came, in order to see if there is some difference in the brand you purchased today?
20:48.25vininimheh, openmoko is a linux device, wouldn't that mean reading all man pages? =X
20:48.29mwesterWe are not speaking about using the keyboard even; I'm just taliing about powering on the neo, and placing a phone call -- something that every child learns to do usually before they go to schoool.
20:48.36PaulFertser_mwester: i don't want a simple device with simple functions anyway.
20:49.20PaulFertser_mwester: tell any 6-year old to use mplayer. And yet it's probably the best player in existance.
20:49.49vininimthat's why you have guis for mplayer core
20:49.51mwesterPaulFertser_:  I want a device that follows the accepted paradigms for common operations: a red button to power on and end the call, a green one to dial, etc.  I expect the same from the linux beneath -- I type "ls" and depress the enter key to enter a command.   Why should I have to learn a totally different way?
20:49.53vininimgnome mplayer is a non-brainer
20:50.20mwesterAnd I also do not speak of music players.
20:50.28PaulFertser_mwester: i consider mass-accepted paradigms a disaster. Too inefficient.
20:50.35mwesterAlthough it is the case here, that every six year old child can work an iPod.
20:50.45badcloudquick question: I figured out how to switch the keyboard dictionary in om 2008.12, but word completion is still kind of active (can't enter one character at a time, plus there are the unnecessary spaces it inserts)
20:51.05badcloudhow do I switch from this word completion method to character by character?
20:51.06mwesterPaulFertser_:  you use a dvorak keyboard, then, I presume -- once again, you impress your very specific view of the world on everyone else!
20:51.12Davemuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuons
20:51.13PaulFertser_mwester: i tried iPod once and it was weird. Moreover it doesn't do what i want anyway. Rockbox is so much better.
20:51.19vininimalso, i believe simple functions are kind of like waypoints. I don't expect OM to be the ubiquitous computing device with all nitfy GPS/Accel/IA stuff if it can't handle telephony and PIM.
20:51.31Davehahaha Paul, have you ever seen a Zune/
20:51.46mwesterPaulFertser_:  Ok.  So let's assume that the whole world switched to rocks box.   Now what?
20:51.55PaulFertser_Dave: only on pictures of epic leap year fail :)
20:52.05mwesterHow did that make dialing an openmoko phone any easier?
20:52.10Dave:D
20:52.13Daveoho man
20:52.19Daveimagine if the Zune could dial...
20:52.34mwesterDave:  it would only call home to microsoft.
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20:52.54vininimno problem, in six months home wouldn't be available anyway =D
20:53.03eolson. o O ( it already calls home )
20:53.14PaulFertser_mwester: my point is that the paradigms accepted by masses are usually inefficient and therefore shouldn't be implemented.
20:53.14mwesteryep, just like the iPod...
20:54.06mwesterPaulFertser_:  ok.  So your argument is that the Openmoko design is completly ok, because the way all other telephones work is wrong.  I guess that's one opinion to have...  I'm afraid I can't accept that as valid, but that's ok..
20:55.16PaulFertser_mwester: I don't know anything "Openmoko design". I know a bit about how the kernel works and how FSO works. Neither of which is openmoko design. And i don't think anyone should expect much more from FR atm.
20:55.18*** join/#openmoko arzej (n=user@dgh8.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
20:55.20mwesterHeck, let's rethink our numbering system, then.   base 10 is silly, and beyond that it discriminates against children born with 6 fingers on a hand.  We should use base 2.  Or an arbitrary base, entered by the user of any device when they first set it up.  :D
20:55.24*** join/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@78-1-142-111.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
20:55.51mwesterMy point is that at some point we must accept certain paradigms as they are.
20:56.21PaulFertser_So? Let hackers build the foundations: the kernel, the framework. Don't complain about end-user apps yet.
20:56.36PaulFertser_After the foundations are ready, all kind of apps become possible.
20:56.41laenThe GTA02 is the most accepted phone to beat people up. Done.
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20:56.51mwester(expectations) -- after two years, I *DO* expect more from Om than a barely-functional kernel on broken hardware.
20:56.54lindi-PaulFertser_: indeed, and i'd restrict that to only ogsmd but that is just me :)
20:57.46laenagress with lindi- (as usual).
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20:58.01PaulFertser_mwester: i hoped for that too, but what does it prove? That OM-the-company sucks? I didn't argue on that one.
20:58.18Slaxxerstill under development!!?::))]
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21:00.10Slaxxerhow long did microsucks use the hacking community to fix their stuff After it was released to the public?
21:00.11mwesterAnyway, this was a fascinating and fun lunch-time discussion!   I agree that it changes nothing; we still need to make this work and OM-the-company still sucks.   But now I must go back to work... :D
21:00.48Slaxxerusing u guys to finish makes perfect sence
21:01.01PaulFertser_Good luck with your work :) I hope managers at your work make more sense than OM's :)
21:01.21Slaxxersimply because u guys are perfectionists an want it righ
21:01.22vininimtbh, I think OM should go the manufacture way and let redistributors like koolu deal with software
21:01.29Slaxxert
21:02.04*** join/#openmoko root_at (n=Anon@194.208.239.170)
21:02.16Slaxxerat least microsoft wont make money off u guys this way
21:03.27Slaxxerand if u can come up with a hardware list(ghood)   maybe somebody can pick up the ball   an have better hardware
21:04.05Slaxxerto put the fruits of your labor to very good use
21:04.23lindi-vininim: it's not easy for somebody else to write the kernel, X and ogsmd
21:04.36lindi-vininim: you need rock-solid hardware knowledge of the specific design
21:04.48lindi-vininim: but phone UIs can be written by other people
21:04.57*** join/#openmoko damunix (n=damunix@brc29-1-82-245-194-55.fbx.proxad.net)
21:05.34PaulFertser_Slaxxer: i think Raster will come with some cool hardware soon :) That's the man i trust.
21:06.43Slaxxerthat would be great
21:07.00vininimlindi-: i'll accept that as a challenge when GTA03 comes out =P
21:07.25lindi-vininim: that should get rid of glamo issues and it should have less buggy gsm chip
21:07.36lindi-vininim: but it won't help with other tricky kernel stuff
21:08.11vininimi'm more impressed by the marketed time to first fix of the new gps chip
21:08.24*** join/#openmoko azaghal (n=azaghal@91.148.112.221)
21:08.28*** join/#openmoko anno^da_ (n=anno^da@p5492E109.dip.t-dialin.net)
21:08.31vininimand yes, the soc seems cool
21:08.43*** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=toi@d54C2AAB7.access.telenet.be)
21:09.01lindi-vininim: i'm very very sceptical about new hardware being cool. sorry but i'm just a pessimist on that :P
21:09.09vininimhehehe
21:09.16lindi-vininim: (our new quadcore system with 8GB ram has been "softlockup"'ing three times this week)
21:10.36Slaxxeranybody got the todays shr?
21:10.44badcloudI was thinking of flashing it
21:10.53badcloudif I can't rig om's stupid keyboard
21:11.16Slaxxerbadcloud did u try the 2008.12 from bytestore?
21:11.19badclouddoesn't anyone know how to shut autocomplete off?
21:11.28badcloudbytestore?
21:11.56*** join/#openmoko slaxxin (n=brian@ip72-204-125-6.fv.ks.cox.net)
21:12.16badcloudgoogle's not giving me anything
21:12.50eolsonreads the lunchtime discussion late. mwester, what's left for it to replace your treo650? Are faster answering and a better dialing UI the main things?
21:13.18badcloudslaxxin, can you point me to a working link?
21:13.23slaxxinhold
21:13.28badcloudsure
21:13.33docscrutinizer2vininim: recent design no gps :-/
21:13.43slaxxinhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Bytestore
21:13.44vininimwat
21:14.16badcloudalso, there seems to be an issue with sms's. I went all day without getting 3
21:14.25slaxxinworks with stable mwester kernel
21:14.34badcloudrestarted the device, and there they were!
21:14.36vininimdocscrutinizer2: why?
21:14.52vininimbattery life?
21:14.56slaxxini recommend it
21:15.08*** part/#openmoko quatrox (n=quatrox@57.80-203-133.nextgentel.com)
21:15.10badcloudI'll give it a shot
21:15.15docscrutinizer2dunno which nda i just violated, but for the "why" ask Sean
21:15.31vininim:)
21:15.31slaxxinif no sound use a different kernel
21:16.13slaxxini had to erase some foreign phone #'s  :)
21:16.18vininimi'm sure someone will spike the rumours and uproar in the ml but not me doing it this time =P
21:16.21*** join/#openmoko DGMurdockIII (n=dgmurdoc@208-70-40-13.bb.hrtc.net)
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21:17.20badcloudslaxxin, bootloader?
21:17.42PaulFertser_docscrutinizer2: but nobody's really sure on the final design and features of GTA03, so what you say can be considered rumors anyway ;)
21:19.00vininim``someone said'' it had to do with patents and legal settlements, burn Apple, Google and Microsoft! :)
21:19.14docscrutinizer2yup, I'm just talking about what I know for sure (the first "NDA" rule) and that is: *recent* design is like this. Doen't mean it'll not change another 20 times
21:20.57docscrutinizer2vininim: (pat.) not to my knowledge
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21:24.23badcloudanyone know where bytestore's image is? (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Bytestore doesn't have it)
21:24.45*** part/#openmoko dwb (n=david@a177027.upc-a.chello.nl)
21:26.34laenOh well.
21:27.29badcloudcrap to this, I'm going to try the new shr image
21:28.52slaxxinits downloading
21:29.10slaxxinis it slow or not working?
21:29.25badcloudI downloaded mine yesterday
21:29.40Dave:D
21:30.07slaxxinthats just funny
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21:30.43slaxxinhad no luck with sound on shr the klast couple of times
21:38.57*** join/#openmoko bove (n=bove@cm-84.208.114.37.getinternet.no)
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21:47.39Slaxxerdid u use the feb 8 shr kernel or andys tracking?
21:48.04badcloudI'm trying feb8 now
21:48.13slaxxinsound wwork?
21:48.19badcloudone second
21:48.39badcloudx is loading...
21:49.08slaxxinim using mwesters stable
21:49.17badcloudah, good old segfaulting illume...
21:49.19badcloudI'm home
21:49.28slaxxindamm98yt
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21:50.10slaxxini seem to always go back to that bytestore image
21:51.09slaxxinat least all the icons are there
21:51.26badcloudno sound
21:51.33*** part/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@78-1-142-111.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
21:51.35badcloudI'll flash andy
21:51.36slaxxinthats what i thought
21:51.44slaxxini have it up
21:52.29vininimmm which uImage should I use for shr-unstable?
21:52.35slaxxini have sound
21:52.41vininimnevermind
21:53.01badcloudso mwester's works with sound and everything?
21:53.22slaxxinwell lets see
21:53.30badcloudI'll give andy a shot in the meantime
21:53.52slaxxin9D50 is what i used
21:54.21slaxxin9d50 is the last 4  didgets
21:54.41slaxxinok i need to know
21:54.57slaxxinu have a link?
21:55.55badcloudfor andy?
21:55.58badcloudone sec
21:56.26badcloudhttp://people.openmoko.org/andy/uImage-moredrivers-GTA02_andy-tracking-d1a9cf85c8608601.bin
21:56.55Slaxxerwell bad link
21:57.05badcloud?
21:57.16Slaxxerno
21:57.17badcloudhttp://people.openmoko.org/andy/
21:58.08rhkfinbytestore, trevino, mwester, kustomizer, om, fso, hackable, debian, gentoo, android, shr, FDOM, QTe, FyP, NeoPwn, OpenWRT, RunningBear, Poky, Sesca ample etc.. No need to tell you don't have choices :)
21:58.22rhkfin(no, they're not all distros .)
21:59.02slaxxinjust mods
21:59.03*** join/#openmoko fredrin (n=workingn@186-212-231-201.fibertel.com.ar)
21:59.29lindi-rhkfin: i think you need ":" somewhere in that list :)
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22:00.58rhkfinlindi-: right :)
22:03.08badcloudqi+andy+latest unstable shr light
22:03.11badcloudSOUND
22:03.19badcloud(=)
22:03.39Slaxxerany segfaults?
22:03.49badcloudnot yet ;)
22:04.24badcloudI just avoid using the wrench
22:04.28badcloudand illume settings
22:05.12Slaxxer::)0))
22:05.12badcloudonly drawback (only?) is that I never know who the $%^&U sends me sms's
22:05.29Slaxxeryea thats ugly
22:05.44lindi-badcloud: does shr run frameworkd?
22:06.18rhkfinbtw if someone of you have uploaded packages to opkg.org, make sure you can install it through the opkg.org repository. Many packages are missing the required information -> installation fails/segfaults/md5mismatches/...
22:06.43badcloudfuck if I know...
22:07.05Slaxxerlots of stuff worked on opkg   then    yesterday it wouldnt work for me
22:07.11badcloudsame for me
22:07.12badcloud$%^&
22:07.22badcloudminimo, scummvm, you name it
22:07.34Slaxxerwe may have an infiltraitor
22:07.49Slaxxerkilling our stuff
22:08.25rhkfinDo you have problems if you install it with opkg install http://....?
22:08.39rhkfinMy experience is that it works a lot better than via the repo
22:09.04rhkfinCheck opkg.org/packages/Packages - many packages don't have complete information there -> fail?
22:09.09Slaxxeri just copy/paste the box contents
22:09.33rhkfinRight, that works a bit better
22:10.04rhkfinThe broken repository makes it frustrating to try to work on KUstomizer - some packages from opkg always fail..
22:11.07badcloudI've had depends and md5sum errors both ways
22:11.09*** join/#openmoko bove (n=bove@cm-84.208.114.37.getinternet.no)
22:11.13badcloudrepo and http
22:11.21badcloudshr sucks in that way
22:11.33badcloudom has been much more solid in the app department
22:11.37Slaxxerpythm works:)
22:11.42badcloudat least that
22:11.52Slaxxerphone works
22:11.57badclouddillo
22:12.00Slaxxerno segfaults
22:12.16*** join/#openmoko muxe (n=muxe@i577B4928.versanet.de)
22:12.18*** join/#openmoko walkie (n=walkie@184-4-vpn.velnet.ru)
22:12.42rhkfinbadcloud: dillo SSL support doesn't seem to work, I think.
22:12.46Slaxxerpythm just quit
22:13.41rhkfinpythm has some python 2.5 / python 2.6 issues AFAIK
22:15.01laenJust tried koolu's beta3, can't say it's something you can work with yet.
22:15.19badcloudcrap
22:15.29rhkfinnow pythm crashes on ImportError: No module named mutagen.easyid3
22:15.33Slaxxerdid u get the keyboard to work?
22:15.39rhkfinI've installed mutagen..
22:16.36laenMe?
22:18.11laenSo anyone got some experience with Pyneo?
22:18.44rhkfinoh right, I forgot koolu from my list..
22:18.47rhkfin:)
22:18.47slaxxinpythm is playing music but is closed
22:19.19rhkfinslaxxin: closed as in no code available or closed as program not running?
22:20.04*** join/#openmoko chris_debian (n=chris_de@host86-148-127-173.range86-148.btcentralplus.com)
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22:21.10docscrutinizer2slaxxin: playing sound out of buffer (or even by background process) while main app exited isn't completely unknown
22:21.48slaxxinok
22:21.52vininimqi works flawless with shr, right?
22:21.55agg1nWeiss: i installed xf86-video-glamo on my freerunner. do i have to tell x to use it or something like that?
22:21.58slaxxinwell
22:22.02vininim(unstable kernel)
22:22.50*** join/#openmoko alx} (n=alx}--@134.95.88-79.rev.gaoland.net)
22:22.54vininimslaxxin: I thought pythm wore a back-end to mpd or mplayer
22:22.54vininim*was
22:22.55*** join/#openmoko hklein_ (n=hklein@i59F759A2.versanet.de)
22:23.18rhkfinvininim: it is, or gstreamer (the current default, I think)
22:23.38vininimit's possibly mpd daemon running then
22:23.50docscrutinizer2slaxxin: more common situation though is main win of app closed but process fails to stop soundcard, thus hanging on in kinda zombie process
22:24.25slaxxini think thats wats happining
22:24.34Weissagg1n: well done. edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf and add a line to the device section for the graphics card: Driver "glamo"
22:24.38docscrutinizer2ps should reveal
22:25.13docscrutinizer2kill -9 should do
22:25.53agg1nWeiss: there is no xorg.conf :/
22:26.02Sharwin_FI get a bitbake error "ERROR: Please set the 'PERSISTENT_DIR' or 'CACHE' variable."
22:26.14Sharwin_FI've set it as told in the wiki of oe
22:26.20Sharwin_Fany ideas?
22:26.37Sharwin_Fwhat's CACHE used for? a tmp dir to build?
22:26.52Weissagg1n: then create one :) - hang on, i'll put a template up
22:27.00Sharwin_Fshould I set it to any specific dir?
22:27.13vininimwiki information should be related to what is shipped with freerunner? Because several listed FreeRunner issues are solved in 2008.12
22:27.48slaxxinyes they are
22:28.28docscrutinizer2vininim: so mark them like this when they come across your way ;-)
22:28.42Weissagg1n: http://www.bitwiz.org.uk/xorg.conf (probably want to comment out 'Load "dri"' and 'Load "glx"' and the AIGLX line)
22:29.17*** join/#openmoko mirko-paroli (n=mirko@cust-IP-10.data.tre.se)
22:29.45*** join/#openmoko vininim_ (n=vininim@pdpc/supporter/student/vininim)
22:29.55laenLast try for the day, Pyneo, epydial and zad versions.
22:30.38docscrutinizer2vininim: a "solved in 2008.12 see: <pointer to trac, Ml, whatever>" might help a lot
22:31.02agg1nWeiss: thanks for your help!
22:32.40rhkfinbtw does gta03 still ship with 2007.2?
22:32.50Slaxxerlolol
22:32.51docscrutinizer2lol
22:32.59Slaxxeryup
22:33.08docscrutinizer2typo of the day
22:34.15*** join/#openmoko losinggeneration (n=harley@ics184-24.icsincorporated.com)
22:34.21rhkfinheh :)
22:34.23rhkfinsorry :
22:34.24rhkfin)
22:34.36rhkfin(but who knows :)
22:35.06rhkfintrying again: does gta02 still ship with 2007.2?
22:35.12docscrutinizer2nah we actually have 2008.12 fab image
22:35.37rhkfinok
22:35.42rhkfingood :)
22:35.49rhkfinor ~good at least
22:36.04docscrutinizer2will take some months to market though, I'd guess
22:36.13agg1nWeiss: ok..may be a silly question, but what can i do to test the driver a little bit? :)
22:39.51docscrutinizer2rhkfin: though I'm still not sure about them downgrading to 2008.09  due to gsmhandset.state file considered "nonfitting" - loool
22:40.16badcloudanyone remember how to add opkg.org as a repo?
22:41.58rhkfinbadcloud: echo "src/gz opkgorg http://www.opkg.org/packages" > /etc/opkg/opkg-feed.conf
22:42.05rhkfindocscrutinizer2: hmm.. ok :/
22:43.29badcloudthanks, rhkfin
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22:45.02kaldenHello, I just got my Freerunner. Is it ok to update from OM2008.8 to 2008.12 or have I update to 2008.9 first ?
22:45.21SpeedEvilflashing always takes you directly to a version
22:45.26SpeedEvilno need for intermediate steps
22:45.47kaldenok, thanks for your advice
22:45.54*** join/#openmoko vininim_ (n=vininim@pdpc/supporter/student/vininim)
22:46.42docscrutinizer2kalden: emphasis on "flashing" though
22:46.51SpeedEvilyeah
22:47.04SpeedEvil'opkg upgrade' won't work
22:47.16kaldenno that doesn't work
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22:47.53kaldenI get errors when I do 'opkg update'
22:48.12SpeedEvilyou will
22:48.34SpeedEvilDon't try upgrading that way.
22:49.27kaldenSo flashing is the way to go ? from 2008.8 directly to 2008.12
22:49.48DocScrutinizeryup
22:50.26kaldenThanks
22:52.54kaldenAnother problem is that my SIM isn't recognised. There seems to be a solution for that to...but it's rather risky : /
22:53.15rhkfinkalden: first upgrade both kernel & rootfs
22:53.22rhkfinthen see what happens with the SIM
22:53.29*** part/#openmoko lokomoko (n=marc@p54A3AF93.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
22:53.32rhkfinupgrade = flash..
22:53.50kaldenOk, I'll do that first.
22:54.06kaldenMany thanks all of you.
22:54.28Weissagg1n: xperf -all is quite good :)
22:54.46*** join/#openmoko alx} (n=alx}--@134.95.88-79.rev.gaoland.net)
22:55.29DocScrutinizerrhkfin: kalden: updating GSM-FW isn't that risky. It might be worth doing it prior to upgrading rootfs, as you need to reflash rootfs with a special "gsm-update rootfs" if you want to do GSM-update the correct and safe way
22:55.53Weissagg1n: x11perf even
22:57.13DocScrutinizerkalden: see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GSM/Flashing
22:57.50DocScrutinizerafter that you can flash 2008.12 and _keep it_ ;-)
23:00.08kaldenAh.. Ok. I didn't start yet.
23:00.34rhkfinDocScrutinizer: ok.. Is there a need for the gsm flashing, what does it fix?
23:00.49DocScrutinizer#666
23:01.03DocScrutinizerso called 3G-sim issue
23:01.07*** join/#openmoko kalden (i=5365384c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d6834f3dfdc5e70f)
23:01.09rhkfinah, okay..
23:01.35DocScrutinizermoko11 even fixes some resume issue, as well as potential buffer overruns
23:01.45*** join/#openmoko Varox (n=Varox@p4FD4628B.dip.t-dialin.net)
23:02.31DocScrutinizermoko11b1 is beta still, but I dare to recommend it neverheless, as we seen no problems with moko10 update, and neither we did with the moko11b1 yet
23:02.40vininimoh noes, qi is trying to boot my sdcard
23:03.06vininim(or it's slow, I don't see a kernel panic)
23:04.14vininimmaybe I should just chill out and wait the long first boot
23:06.30*** join/#openmoko jucs (n=jucs@p57AE6717.dip.t-dialin.net)
23:06.34jucsHi
23:06.44jucsDoes anyone know how to get agps-gui for debian?
23:07.03vininimi can has shr-unstable, it's nice
23:07.44chris_debianagps-gui for debian?
23:09.50jucsYou know, this genius test application for om2007.2
23:09.58jucsWhich shoes all gps information
23:16.41SpeedEvilcat
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23:20.27badcloudwhen are they going to make the phone stack in shr more practical??
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23:30.27vininimbadcloud: there is some chicken-egg problem wrt to gui since shr is on top of fso framework
23:30.51vininimnot really chicken-egg, more like pipeline issue
23:32.55vininimPackage libpython2.6-1.0 (2.6.1-ml0) installed in root is up to date.
23:33.04vininim* ERROR: Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for python-pyalsaaudio: *  libpython2.5-1.0 (>= 2.5.2) *
23:33.16vininimwat
23:34.29*** join/#openmoko flaushy (n=flaushy@static-ip-62-75-240-161.inaddr.intergenia.de)
23:39.33laenAnd i have given op on everything but debian again :)
23:42.56badcloudas *soon* as I get the chance, I'm going debian on my uSD
23:43.26laenSmart :)
23:43.38*** part/#openmoko chris_debian (n=chris_de@host86-148-127-173.range86-148.btcentralplus.com)
23:43.42SpeedEvilSounds like a bad rap record badcloud.
23:43.46laenNo more problems with weird apps and stuff, simply a real OS on your moko and a full working Zhone.
23:44.21vininimZhone works fully on fso =P
23:46.07*** part/#openmoko bove (n=bove@cm-84.208.114.37.getinternet.no)
23:47.27laenI do hope to get the knowledge to create a toolchain and crosscompile gentoo for it, and then get frameworkd and zhone etc working on that.
23:47.37badcloudhow do you mean, speed?
23:47.41laenAnd then provide a portage binhost.. but well.
23:48.08SpeedEvilbad 'going debian on my uSD'
23:48.57*** join/#openmoko alfatangoxt (n=michele@host158-206-dynamic.8-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
23:48.59badcloudyou mean debian doesn't run smoothly on the microsd?
23:49.21SpeedEvilbadcloud: Please ignore me.
23:49.23laenDoes here. Perfectly.
23:49.41badcloudah, shucks
23:50.35badcloudwhat I'm feeling is that the current distros specifically for FR and 1973 are not focused on basic use enough
23:50.52badcloudphone should be of first and foremost attention
23:50.57badcloudthen goodies
23:52.05*** join/#openmoko vininim (n=vininim@pdpc/supporter/student/vininim)
23:54.08SpeedEvilkernel is first
23:54.10SpeedEvilthen phone
23:54.14SpeedEvilthen goodies.
23:54.15SpeedEvilIMO
23:55.12mwesteragrees
23:55.31badcloudI suppose it's a philosophy/usage thing
23:56.22Weissthinks it's more to do with how hard it is to work at the low-level stuff. it's not really true that people working on one side of things are doing it at the expense of the other
23:56.27Weissat least, i don't think it is
23:56.51badcloudwell, I think I need some sleep
23:57.05badcloudlater crocodiles

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