| 00:00.13 | raster | wait and see |
| 00:02.41 | DocScrutinzrFlu | (i want my titties and i want my beer, so you just barf it back up, devil! do you hear?!) |
| 00:03.54 | cb22 | capacitive touch screen for gta03? :D |
| 00:04.25 | Dave | :D |
| 00:04.34 | Dave | haha poor joerg |
| 00:04.38 | Dave | cb22, go fish |
| 00:04.56 | cb22 | Dave, huh? http://lists.openmoko.org/nabble.html#nabble-td1690756|a1690756 |
| 00:05.00 | raster | holycow: let it suspend you for a bit longer |
| 00:05.01 | raster | :) |
| 00:05.20 | DocScrutinzrFlu | Dave: dont you ever mess with grandmaster Zappa! ;) |
| 00:05.26 | Dave | :D |
| 00:05.28 | Dave | hehehe |
| 00:06.44 | DocScrutinzrFlu | i'm a poor guy just because I miss all of those devine records, plus a 2KW stereo |
| 00:09.45 | *** join/#openmoko gcwilso1 (n=gcwilson@32.97.110.65) |
| 00:11.12 | Dave | :) |
| 00:11.13 | Dave | sweet |
| 00:12.49 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07fso-monitord * r6c46ef922b51 10/src/obj.vala: |
| 00:12.49 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: project on hold until signals with complex types work :/ |
| 00:12.49 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: See http://mail.gnome.org/archives/vala-list/2009-January/msg00033.html |
| 00:14.01 | holycow | raster: hehehe :) |
| 00:14.15 | holycow | i don't mind, it's best not to tell me anything |
| 00:14.24 | holycow | i'm horrible with keeping info |
| 00:14.47 | holycow | my dream for the company here is for everyone to have a linux desktop on their smartphone basically |
| 00:14.57 | holycow | with some usb ports on it and a video out |
| 00:15.13 | holycow | so when they are on the road the use the phone app and some message apps and such |
| 00:15.22 | holycow | and at the office they plug in a moni and kb and go |
| 00:15.42 | holycow | and the office apps are pretty basic. webstuff, open office, some video things like that |
| 00:15.56 | holycow | i can just tell we are about to cross that line |
| 00:16.03 | raster | holycow: the problem is - that makes phones BIG |
| 00:16.07 | raster | to add all the ports |
| 00:16.39 | holycow | yeah it does, i could be wishing for too much |
| 00:17.26 | cb22 | a usb 2 port could solve all of that |
| 00:17.37 | cb22 | you can pretty much do anything over it |
| 00:17.41 | holycow | you mean usb3 |
| 00:17.51 | holycow | beagleboard is awfully close to this too |
| 00:18.00 | SpeedEvil | stabs holycow, and the USB3 standards committee. |
| 00:18.05 | holycow | with usb3 y ou might be able to do video over it, yes? |
| 00:18.14 | cb22 | usb2 can handle video just fine |
| 00:18.26 | holycow | really? |
| 00:18.34 | holycow | oh neat one more thing to google. |
| 00:18.40 | cb22 | theres over 10 glamo's worth of bandwidth there ;) |
| 00:18.42 | SpeedEvil | has some issues with USB3. |
| 00:18.47 | cb22 | SpeedEvil, such as? |
| 00:18.54 | cb22 | and i thought you were going to sleep? :p |
| 00:18.57 | holycow | heh right, such as? |
| 00:18.59 | holycow | :) |
| 00:19.01 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: The connector are deeply stupid. |
| 00:19.14 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: the mini ones especially. |
| 00:19.25 | holycow | cb22 our users would expect 102x768 for most applications |
| 00:19.26 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: they are doing it wrong. |
| 00:19.30 | holycow | none of them can see greater resolution |
| 00:19.50 | holycow | so maybe usb 2.0 might be able to handle it ... i've never looked into it |
| 00:19.52 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: putting the complexity in the cable - not the silicon - going for 2 pairs each way, not 1 pair. |
| 00:20.13 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: extra wires are bad - from a flexibility and durability POV. |
| 00:20.22 | Sharwin_F | Is there any app to manage text messages and contacts from the PC? Wammu? |
| 00:20.24 | cb22 | SpeedEvil, i see what you mean |
| 00:20.41 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: and they haven't addressed properly the use of it for providing power at >5W or so. |
| 00:20.52 | holycow | interesting, didn't think about that |
| 00:22.00 | *** join/#openmoko merriam_ (n=merriam@wmerriam.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 00:22.05 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: silicon gets more complex and capable and cheaper as time goes on. Fragile and hard to dock connectors don't get easier. |
| 00:22.26 | SpeedEvil | (And I woke up again - toothache) |
| 00:22.47 | cb22 | heh, ouch |
| 00:23.02 | SpeedEvil | And that's another thing that's hard to do right with all the stock USB connectors. |
| 00:23.04 | SpeedEvil | A dock. |
| 00:23.11 | eolson | hmm, so toothache => get lots of work done (no sleep) |
| 00:23.14 | *** join/#openmoko gurugentoo1 (n=narf@tamulink-0005.vpn.tamu.edu) |
| 00:23.35 | SpeedEvil | You need to aim the connectors to within about a quarter of a mm in order to have it not hang up when it's inserted |
| 00:23.49 | raster | holycow: as such the bb happily displays 1024x768 |
| 00:23.53 | raster | withotu flinching |
| 00:24.01 | raster | i know koen was driving it at 1600x1200 |
| 00:24.06 | raster | on the dvi out on the bb |
| 00:24.11 | raster | its perfectly capable |
| 00:24.24 | raster | but what u probably want is some kind of breakout hub/base station |
| 00:24.34 | raster | where you normally have a phone ui |
| 00:24.42 | raster | (smalls crteen style) on 1 screen |
| 00:24.54 | holycow | really? |
| 00:24.55 | raster | and *IF* u plug in the base station you get a second fb at 1024x768 |
| 00:24.57 | holycow | wow |
| 00:24.57 | raster | in "desktop mode" |
| 00:25.11 | raster | as such technically al u need to do is run the lcd controller lines out there |
| 00:25.15 | raster | on the extension connector |
| 00:25.31 | raster | and put the same lcd->hdmi chip on the basetattion |
| 00:25.37 | raster | as well as put in a powered usb hub |
| 00:25.43 | holycow | huh |
| 00:25.44 | raster | so u can plug in kbd and mouse |
| 00:25.49 | raster | presto |
| 00:25.51 | holycow | yes right |
| 00:25.59 | raster | just plug in kbd,. mouse and monitor |
| 00:26.10 | holycow | wow |
| 00:26.11 | raster | and the phone can run a "desktop" when plugged in |
| 00:26.24 | SpeedEvil | Meh. Plugin? |
| 00:26.27 | raster | the omap3 has multiple screen out support from memory |
| 00:26.27 | SpeedEvil | Bluetooth! |
| 00:26.31 | raster | even if not |
| 00:26.35 | holycow | man my box here just seems more ancinet the more chat goes on here |
| 00:26.44 | raster | u can turn the on-phone lcd offan dredirect to the external |
| 00:27.04 | raster | SpeedEvil: the bt versions of wireless kbds etc. generally cost an extra $100-150 |
| 00:27.04 | holycow | and totally doable with current technology |
| 00:27.08 | raster | usb ius cheap |
| 00:27.18 | raster | u need the breakout for screen anyway |
| 00:27.19 | SpeedEvil | raster: yeah, I know :/ |
| 00:27.23 | raster | throwing in the usb hub is "meh" |
| 00:27.27 | SpeedEvil | raster: bluetooth keyb! |
| 00:27.32 | SpeedEvil | raster: bluetooth screen! |
| 00:27.33 | holycow | the hub we wouldn't blink about at all |
| 00:27.34 | SpeedEvil | I mean |
| 00:27.36 | raster | hahaha |
| 00:27.47 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: 03root 07gsm0710muxd * r58b581a6a818 10/ (ChangeLog src/gsm0710muxd.c): |
| 00:27.47 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: Implement write buffering for the ptys |
| 00:27.47 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: If the receiving side of the pty is slow, the kernel pty buffer (of 4096 |
| 00:27.47 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: bytes) overflows and an unreported lossage occurs. This can be seen when |
| 00:27.48 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: receiving a large SIM phonebook with busy frameworkd. |
| 00:27.57 | SpeedEvil | That's actually one of my projects - BNEP VNC screen. |
| 00:27.58 | holycow | raster: we would probably buy things like that in bulk, like 20 units at a time |
| 00:28.01 | raster | also the usb hub means u can have mass-storage (sonme usb hdd;'s) for storign your big fat media |
| 00:28.04 | raster | etc. |
| 00:28.05 | holycow | i'd replace most of my 150 desktops with such a unit |
| 00:28.11 | raster | usb ethernet for conencting to company lan |
| 00:28.21 | raster | (when the company is so paranoid they wont touch wifi) |
| 00:28.29 | lindi- | SpeedEvil: gadgetfs keyboard would be useful |
| 00:28.32 | holycow | our mass storage would be a remote sshfs mount over vpn |
| 00:28.33 | holycow | lol |
| 00:28.37 | holycow | but thats a whole other thing |
| 00:28.50 | raster | moot really |
| 00:28.52 | cb22 | holycow, ssh over a vpn? |
| 00:28.54 | raster | but phone could double as desktop |
| 00:28.57 | cb22 | tad wasteful |
| 00:29.05 | raster | if you need to go somewhere |
| 00:29.09 | raster | just pick up phone and go |
| 00:29.12 | raster | ddont "Sync" |
| 00:29.17 | holycow | cb22 yes it is |
| 00:29.20 | raster | all you need is already there |
| 00:29.22 | raster | all the same apps |
| 00:29.29 | SpeedEvil | wishes contactless had a deployed widespread standard. |
| 00:29.42 | SpeedEvil | wants his phone to open doors and stuff. |
| 00:29.43 | *** join/#openmoko dwb (n=david@a177027.upc-a.chello.nl) |
| 00:30.00 | holycow | raster: you just described perfectly what we want |
| 00:30.00 | SpeedEvil | Or alternatively, a det-cord dispenser. |
| 00:30.14 | raster | holycow: and if it runs linux and is open - you can do your own custom os image |
| 00:30.17 | raster | and easily flash it |
| 00:30.26 | holycow | raster: which we do already. |
| 00:30.32 | raster | so companies that have enouhg users spend a bit of time getting thigns right for their userbase |
| 00:30.34 | raster | then replicate |
| 00:30.38 | holycow | also |
| 00:30.53 | holycow | the power of this device is irrelevant past a certain point |
| 00:30.57 | raster | holycow: how much would you pay? |
| 00:31.03 | holycow | becaus as long as it can get on the net it s thin client |
| 00:31.24 | holycow | raster: well thin clients are around $400 ... this is a laptop basically so laptop prices |
| 00:31.32 | raster | ok |
| 00:31.40 | holycow | hard to say but really i'm replacing laptops with these |
| 00:31.40 | raster | well its more netbook territory |
| 00:31.43 | raster | in performance |
| 00:31.47 | holycow | so $500 to $1k |
| 00:31.50 | holycow | netbook yes |
| 00:31.51 | raster | ok |
| 00:31.53 | raster | sounds doable |
| 00:32.05 | raster | (excluding the actual monitors and kbd/mice) |
| 00:32.09 | holycow | yes right |
| 00:32.31 | holycow | i'm not just saying this, i can be contacted aboutthis at any point in time |
| 00:32.34 | holycow | if a vendor is ready |
| 00:32.37 | raster | ie device + base station (with hdmi->dvi out, usb hub (4 port or so)) all powerd doubling as a charging station |
| 00:32.44 | holycow | yes |
| 00:32.56 | raster | i think it'd be doable in low volmes for under 1k |
| 00:33.12 | holycow | we are currently spending $1200 on laptops only because people have the impression that a more expensive laptop is better |
| 00:33.13 | *** join/#openmoko peeloo (n=peeloo@AToulouse-152-1-9-37.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 00:33.18 | raster | of course mass market (100k+ units) would bring the cost dow a lot more to the $500 range |
| 00:33.21 | holycow | i've tried but its a perception thing |
| 00:33.22 | holycow | however |
| 00:33.27 | holycow | if i can get them a desktop to carry around |
| 00:33.57 | holycow | thats a whole other ballgame |
| 00:34.09 | raster | or even better |
| 00:34.15 | raster | what if the whole os was on.. the sd card? |
| 00:34.20 | holycow | even better |
| 00:34.24 | raster | so when the user totally fucks it up |
| 00:34.26 | holycow | we upgrade now by sending out hard drives |
| 00:34.27 | raster | just pull the card out |
| 00:34.32 | holycow | i can just send out an sd card on the os |
| 00:34.32 | raster | cat a new fs image on |
| 00:34.34 | raster | had it back |
| 00:34.39 | holycow | it has to be a large enough sd card tho |
| 00:34.43 | raster | and for remote users yup |
| 00:34.49 | raster | just send out bunches of sd cards |
| 00:34.52 | raster | up to you |
| 00:34.58 | raster | microsd go up to 8g these days |
| 00:35.04 | holycow | i have 175 desktops ... i could replacde 150 of them with this |
| 00:35.10 | holycow | 8g would be plenty |
| 00:35.14 | holycow | our / partition is 10 gigs |
| 00:35.16 | raster | and they will get bigger |
| 00:35.17 | holycow | our /home is 10 gigs |
| 00:35.18 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07gsm0710muxd * r95151f9e2fe3 10/ (ChangeLog configure.ac): release as 0.9.2.2 |
| 00:35.19 | holycow | lol |
| 00:35.30 | holycow | thats on a desktop |
| 00:35.33 | raster | sure |
| 00:35.49 | raster | u want a smarter setyp that employs caching |
| 00:35.51 | sicu | microSD go to 16gb |
| 00:35.56 | raster | u'd want a cachefs |
| 00:36.08 | SpeedEvil | sigius: 64 prolly by the time this thing hits |
| 00:36.09 | raster | whihc normally snarfs the fs from nfs/smb |
| 00:36.18 | raster | and will sync the dir tree meta-data |
| 00:36.23 | raster | but wont fetch the file data until needed |
| 00:36.32 | raster | and then keep the most accessed data in a local cache |
| 00:36.33 | sicu | SpeedEvil: probably |
| 00:36.47 | raster | so a 2g sd shoudl be enough for os + all your daily data needs |
| 00:36.48 | holycow | well people can just store their files on an encrypted usb disk too if they want |
| 00:36.50 | Dave | sicu :o |
| 00:36.56 | sicu | Dave =D |
| 00:36.58 | Dave | ;) |
| 00:37.00 | holycow | with 2 or 3 us ports, there is enough there |
| 00:37.09 | raster | :) |
| 00:37.25 | raster | they'd have to take the base stattion with them though |
| 00:37.28 | Dave | more hubs, more power! |
| 00:37.29 | raster | or bring a powered usb hub |
| 00:38.03 | raster | i wonder how many companies out there would do such a thing |
| 00:38.16 | holycow | welll you are talking about a smartphone first |
| 00:38.20 | raster | replace all their laptop/desktop/phone fleet with a single fleixble smartphone |
| 00:38.28 | holycow | second you are just extending the smartphone to the netbook space |
| 00:38.34 | raster | (if it can double as a desktop given breakout of display) |
| 00:38.34 | holycow | what that does is merge two areas: |
| 00:38.44 | holycow | calling / desktops |
| 00:38.56 | holycow | the number of people that need that device is kind of simple to think of |
| 00:39.25 | holycow | its anyone that needs only a netbook + celphone + pda |
| 00:39.26 | raster | but that would actually PAY for it |
| 00:39.34 | raster | that would trust it |
| 00:39.38 | raster | because it doesnt run windows |
| 00:39.44 | holycow | ah ... that |
| 00:39.48 | raster | rememebr u are talking a buttload of corporate shills |
| 00:39.54 | raster | "but it doesnt run outlook!" |
| 00:39.57 | holycow | *hmmm* sorry i keep on thinking about our needs, we run linux so its not a problem |
| 00:39.57 | raster | "where is excel?" |
| 00:39.59 | raster | :) |
| 00:40.02 | raster | yup |
| 00:40.04 | holycow | yeah right |
| 00:40.12 | raster | you'd have to have them siling to give up on ms |
| 00:40.16 | raster | basically (already) |
| 00:40.20 | holycow | we have had to leave a few people on ms here as well but they are stragglers |
| 00:40.47 | holycow | well thats a good point ... i think that the answer to that might be the same answer as to why no one has made any arm laptops |
| 00:41.00 | holycow | there is a market for it but ... yeah shit. right forgot about the windows people |
| 00:41.22 | raster | that cuts the market down a lot |
| 00:41.24 | raster | and then pricepoint |
| 00:41.26 | holycow | a lot |
| 00:41.31 | raster | they would go "but we already have something that works" |
| 00:41.38 | raster | replacing it means throwing out the existing investment |
| 00:41.43 | raster | and spending more |
| 00:41.49 | raster | whihc currently is highly unlikely |
| 00:42.02 | holycow | with the current market conditions i agree |
| 00:42.07 | holycow | i'll say this let me find a link: |
| 00:42.08 | Dave | eek |
| 00:42.14 | raster | mind u |
| 00:42.19 | raster | again if u plan low volume |
| 00:42.28 | raster | and you try and attach several markets at once |
| 00:42.31 | SpeedEvil | coats all the release windows disks with ebola. |
| 00:42.35 | raster | the same device wqould be a dream for linux hackers |
| 00:42.49 | *** join/#openmoko everslick (n=clemens@212-183-118-12.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 00:42.53 | raster | and frankly your average linux hacker these days is a professional or semi-professionakl |
| 00:42.54 | SpeedEvil | raster: you're competing there against flashed _mass_ market stuff tho |
| 00:42.54 | holycow | http://www.geekstuff4u.com/notebooks/umpc-handheld/fujitsu-u-b50-u2010-a-spec.html |
| 00:42.57 | raster | with disposable income |
| 00:42.58 | holycow | i have one of those |
| 00:43.07 | raster | and they likely will spend it on such things regardless of the finacial crsis |
| 00:43.08 | raster | :) |
| 00:43.08 | holycow | i can't tell you how many execs when i fly ask me about the form factor |
| 00:43.16 | holycow | i've had people interrup my dinner to do a demo for them |
| 00:43.26 | holycow | so the formfactor thing is big, they all hate laptops |
| 00:43.26 | raster | SpeedEvil: yes - but is it open? :) |
| 00:43.30 | holycow | they REALLY hate laptops |
| 00:43.31 | raster | out of the box open |
| 00:43.33 | holycow | but its the windows thing |
| 00:43.38 | SpeedEvil | raster: I have a chainsaw. |
| 00:43.47 | raster | ie vendor encourages you to "go at it' and do your own os builds |
| 00:43.48 | holycow | raster: well at minimum you would get allthe openmoko community buying it |
| 00:43.48 | raster | :) |
| 00:43.51 | holycow | all of them would |
| 00:43.59 | holycow | BUT one single thing would haveto be done right |
| 00:44.03 | holycow | the phone application |
| 00:44.13 | SpeedEvil | raster: there is 'is it open' and there is 'But I can have this for 0.75* the money, and it can be flashed'. |
| 00:44.21 | holycow | the mailing lists are clear about that having to be dead right from the outset |
| 00:44.25 | raster | holycow: l aaah te fujitsu mini - expensive little fucker, but nice |
| 00:45.00 | raster | SpeedEvil: true. nothing much to be done there |
| 00:45.08 | holycow | yeah, its cool. its a great laptop replacement for the most part |
| 00:45.16 | raster | holycow: i know |
| 00:45.40 | raster | SpeedEvil: mind you - NO ONE is doing a smartpphone that has an ability to have dvi out to a normal screen |
| 00:45.47 | holycow | raster: well you know what tho? |
| 00:45.50 | raster | (that i have heard of) |
| 00:45.56 | holycow | i'll tell you where you can really hit a home run |
| 00:46.06 | holycow | thin clients basically have similar hardware to what you described |
| 00:46.13 | holycow | some come with twin vide out even |
| 00:46.20 | holycow | thy are about $450 dollars or so |
| 00:46.25 | holycow | if you can get close to that |
| 00:46.32 | holycow | you can have the same device for both applications |
| 00:46.38 | holycow | but the thinclient would be sans lcd |
| 00:46.41 | holycow | thus less cost |
| 00:46.55 | holycow | so you could take the device and target it at multiple niches |
| 00:47.12 | raster | as long as it has enouhg cpu/ram/flahs/storage |
| 00:47.13 | SpeedEvil | raster: you're assuming at least 200% BOM cost -> retail I assume? |
| 00:47.20 | raster | and enough peripheral attachments available |
| 00:47.22 | raster | anything is possible |
| 00:47.26 | raster | just a matter of software |
| 00:47.27 | raster | :) |
| 00:47.37 | raster | SpeedEvil: roughly - yes |
| 00:47.45 | holycow | they other end is is verticals too |
| 00:47.52 | holycow | a lot of verticals have been looking at the moko |
| 00:48.09 | holycow | to what extent and where that can be used i don't know i'm not in the business |
| 00:48.34 | holycow | again moko core startegy as well |
| 00:48.37 | raster | sure |
| 00:48.51 | raster | there's definitelty a market |
| 00:49.01 | holycow | i was at 7/11 the other day |
| 00:49.02 | raster | the q is.. how big is it really on a conservative scale |
| 00:49.06 | holycow | guess what they have for their inventory? |
| 00:49.10 | raster | and how hard is it to get the market to know the thing exists |
| 00:49.19 | holycow | they have actual flip notebook thingies |
| 00:49.28 | holycow | its a windows xp install with a winxp app |
| 00:49.33 | raster | yup |
| 00:49.38 | holycow | on a fliptop laptop and doing touchscreen input |
| 00:49.38 | raster | a lot of places do that kind of stuff |
| 00:49.40 | holycow | its retarded |
| 00:49.46 | holycow | but your app could do that perfectly |
| 00:49.51 | holycow | err device |
| 00:50.00 | holycow | could do that sort of vertical integration much better |
| 00:50.07 | holycow | except of course for the windows stuff |
| 00:50.36 | holycow | well it could do it over rdp over a wireless network |
| 00:50.43 | holycow | or as a web app |
| 00:50.50 | holycow | which is probably what most of those apps will move to |
| 00:51.05 | holycow | if they are storing the inventory on the laptop and then synching it later ... that can't possibly work reliably |
| 00:51.06 | holycow | heh |
| 00:51.32 | holycow | also think games ... i mean with a usb port i can build an epansion pod |
| 00:51.38 | holycow | to add jostick stuff to it |
| 00:51.44 | holycow | lol okay very expensive gaming pad but its a full os |
| 00:51.57 | holycow | i donno the gfx capabiliteis so i'm kinda thinking iphone sorta deal |
| 00:52.11 | holycow | a phone app must work tho, the audience has spoken on that one |
| 00:52.19 | raster | the omap35630 has the same 3d chip as the palm pre and iphone |
| 00:52.31 | holycow | and if you could start a store and start app development and sell it on an itune/iphone kinda way for $.99 cents an app |
| 00:52.48 | holycow | you could build a development community alongside the freedom zealots like me |
| 00:52.59 | *** part/#openmoko idarwin (n=ian@24-138-98-125.zing-net.ca) |
| 00:53.14 | holycow | there is lots of room for people who want to pay for stuff you just haveto package it right |
| 00:53.55 | holycow | so there are a few options there that can be explored fuerther |
| 00:54.07 | holycow | the only catch is none of them as uniform and as large as the desktop has been for ms |
| 00:54.25 | holycow | but i think thats splintering now too with the netbooks so maybe its time to start thinking about smaller and smaller niches |
| 00:54.59 | raster | sure |
| 00:55.04 | holycow | raster: i hope your loggin this, i won't remember any of it later :) |
| 00:55.05 | raster | the hardest bit is making the thing |
| 00:55.06 | holycow | hehe |
| 00:55.08 | raster | the rest is not hard |
| 00:55.09 | raster | :) |
| 00:55.15 | sicu | queues up to buy a few |
| 00:55.25 | sicu | raster: when's it ready ? |
| 00:55.31 | sicu | ;p |
| 00:55.32 | raster | hahahah |
| 00:55.33 | holycow | raster: i think if i look at the mailing lists, this is what the moko community wants |
| 00:55.35 | raster | can't say |
| 00:55.37 | raster | doesn't exist |
| 00:55.39 | holycow | its what the pandora community wants too |
| 00:55.41 | raster | not even a prototype |
| 00:55.45 | raster | (yet) |
| 00:55.58 | raster | pandora is cool |
| 00:55.59 | raster | if a bit big |
| 00:56.04 | raster | but it misses 3g |
| 00:56.05 | raster | basically |
| 00:56.08 | holycow | bingo |
| 00:56.17 | holycow | thats exactly what i said too |
| 00:56.26 | holycow | if it had 3g id be terribly happy |
| 00:56.27 | raster | but its a game console |
| 00:56.33 | *** join/#openmoko bipak_ (n=bip@p57B853B0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 00:56.34 | raster | or built to be one |
| 00:56.40 | raster | its more laptop/game console like |
| 00:56.43 | raster | than phone-like |
| 00:56.50 | holycow | well sure, but i can do two things there: |
| 00:56.53 | holycow | install ubuntu |
| 00:57.15 | holycow | and if i had a phone app use a bluetooth device to do the voice over the 3g device |
| 00:58.09 | SpeedEvil | UMA too! |
| 00:58.38 | raster | sure |
| 00:58.59 | SpeedEvil | Though I'm not sure how the software stack works with that. |
| 01:00.24 | holycow | raster: if you guys or anyone ever comes up with something close to that i'm available to talk |
| 01:00.25 | holycow | lol |
| 01:00.55 | holycow | raster: what formfactor were you visualizing, iphone/moko or blackberry with kb? |
| 01:01.01 | *** join/#openmoko gurugentoo (n=narf@adsl-69-151-248-71.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 01:01.05 | *** join/#openmoko vaiursch (n=erwin@80-218-126-28.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 01:01.12 | holycow | for the roaming usecase |
| 01:01.37 | raster | holycow: looking into it |
| 01:01.37 | raster | :) |
| 01:01.40 | SpeedEvil | keyb adds a whole nother layer of mechanical issues. |
| 01:01.49 | raster | for now small with no kbd built in |
| 01:01.53 | raster | 3" screen |
| 01:01.59 | raster | capacitive |
| 01:02.09 | SpeedEvil | 32" |
| 01:02.13 | raster | otherwise everything pac ked in |
| 01:02.24 | holycow | it does, but remember one thing, ceos love the ability to type a message out on a kb .. |
| 01:02.41 | holycow | texting on an lcd i haven't seen done well yet but it might be |
| 01:02.45 | SpeedEvil | Do what you can do. |
| 01:02.51 | raster | 3g hspa, omap3530, wifi, bt, accelerometers, usb2. |
| 01:03.04 | raster | holycow: i know. but a kbd is a mechanical nightmare |
| 01:03.11 | raster | unless u have good mechanical guys |
| 01:03.17 | SpeedEvil | and moulding |
| 01:03.18 | holycow | oh i see what you are saying |
| 01:03.21 | raster | and a kbd cannto be changed in a software update |
| 01:03.23 | raster | a vkbd can |
| 01:03.24 | raster | :) |
| 01:03.35 | raster | you have the mould issues |
| 01:03.40 | holycow | how do people do texting on vkbd? |
| 01:03.43 | raster | the lots of tiny buttons that being mechanical.. break |
| 01:03.52 | raster | holycow: ask iphone owners |
| 01:03.53 | raster | :) |
| 01:03.54 | holycow | what is a good vkbd example i might be able to try to see? |
| 01:03.59 | holycow | is theirs good? |
| 01:04.03 | SpeedEvil | xvkbd |
| 01:04.19 | raster | holycow: iphones vkbd is one of the better ones |
| 01:04.25 | holycow | can you use it with two large thumbs for example? |
| 01:04.26 | holycow | just curious |
| 01:04.28 | raster | qtopia and ilume are within striking distance |
| 01:04.34 | raster | tho illumes dict code has bugs to work out |
| 01:04.37 | *** join/#openmoko gcwilson (n=gcwilson@32.97.110.59) |
| 01:06.02 | raster | should be able to |
| 01:06.12 | raster | as it basically corrects what u type |
| 01:06.18 | raster | the methods very |
| 01:06.19 | holycow | okay i'll dig up an iphone somewhere and try it out to see |
| 01:06.31 | raster | iphoens is to increase hit areas based on prediction of the next letter |
| 01:06.33 | holycow | there is a downside to the bb kb |
| 01:06.40 | holycow | its very small and tight |
| 01:06.49 | raster | qtopia and illume do lookups + key search area for likely candidates |
| 01:06.54 | holycow | if the vkb is done horizontally so the keystrokes are furtehr apart |
| 01:07.07 | holycow | then it might be doable if i think about it |
| 01:07.07 | raster | thats a give and dtake for any small device |
| 01:07.13 | raster | you make it big to fit a kbd |
| 01:07.19 | raster | and then people bitch its too big for their pockets |
| 01:07.21 | holycow | my bb accuracy is horrible |
| 01:07.28 | raster | or u make it small and peole bitch the kbd is unusable |
| 01:07.32 | holycow | lol |
| 01:07.36 | holycow | i fall into both camps |
| 01:07.37 | holycow | haha |
| 01:07.39 | holycow | damn |
| 01:07.46 | SpeedEvil | passes raster a chording keyboard. |
| 01:07.58 | raster | SpeedEvil: good luck making everyone learn to use one of those |
| 01:07.59 | raster | :) |
| 01:08.21 | SpeedEvil | raster: Come the revolution, I will! |
| 01:08.55 | holycow | raster: maybe as a data point, we use ubuntu on desktops, gnome for now, kde4 when its ready, and basic apps liek firefox, open office, lotus notes for email (to be replaced by zaraffa soon) and a web based intranet comming soon |
| 01:09.25 | holycow | thats probably a lower end office environment requirement or even an average user requirement |
| 01:10.03 | holycow | people do have varying /home dir sizes, some have up to 1 gig, a few are getting over that because they ahve no clue about what jpegs are and what file sizes mean |
| 01:10.17 | holycow | but overal most users are under 500 megs for /home dir for those that are prudent |
| 01:10.36 | holycow | we do use rdp for windows apps and will be doing more of that for more users |
| 01:10.39 | holycow | so in a way |
| 01:10.49 | holycow | we are using our desktops and laptops as thick clients |
| 01:10.52 | holycow | which is kind of stupid |
| 01:11.12 | holycow | if we could put the thick client in their pocket and give them a cel phone capability |
| 01:11.24 | holycow | plus a useably xkbd ... yeah |
| 01:11.26 | raster | most of that is pretty standard fare i'd say |
| 01:11.42 | raster | as such |
| 01:11.46 | holycow | yup |
| 01:11.49 | raster | a kbd-less phone i think would do the job |
| 01:11.58 | raster | as u can catty a bt kbd with u for serious typing |
| 01:12.06 | holycow | i'll haveto test to see but i'll take experts opinion on this |
| 01:12.20 | holycow | well no one does serious typing on a bb either |
| 01:12.21 | holycow | so good point |
| 01:12.32 | raster | i'd worry about a kbd for a 2nd gen device |
| 01:12.42 | raster | once u have all the inital stuff sorted |
| 01:12.45 | holycow | if xkbd works why bother? |
| 01:12.55 | raster | i'd say the vkbd is for messaging |
| 01:13.01 | raster | im, irc, sms, short emails |
| 01:13.07 | raster | so if it does that - you're fine |
| 01:13.07 | holycow | thats all people use the bb for anyway |
| 01:13.17 | holycow | i've never seen anyone work on a doc on a smartphone |
| 01:13.21 | raster | if you have to edit a big document |
| 01:13.25 | holycow | open one up and scroll through it but no more than that |
| 01:13.28 | raster | that swhen people want a big screen and a real kbd |
| 01:13.34 | raster | and thats.. where the base statin comes in |
| 01:13.35 | raster | :) |
| 01:13.43 | holycow | right and thats when we go ... go to the frickin office an dplug in to the terminal |
| 01:14.00 | holycow | what i'd like to have is terminals at all offices |
| 01:14.01 | raster | buy an extra docing station and have one for home |
| 01:14.07 | raster | and maybe a 3rd one for "the road" |
| 01:14.09 | holycow | where people can just walk up to one, plug in, authenticate and go |
| 01:14.15 | raster | if u do long trips |
| 01:14.23 | holycow | this would be so far ahead of anything out there available to us .. |
| 01:14.40 | holycow | actually we could do taht yes |
| 01:14.53 | holycow | i wouldn't have a hard time selling docking stations for managers at home |
| 01:15.01 | raster | as long as a kbd/mouse and screen and a docking stn is available at the place you wil commonly sit ona chair and at a desk for a while to "Work" |
| 01:15.03 | raster | its fine |
| 01:15.15 | holycow | thats exactly how i see our future workplace |
| 01:15.20 | raster | docking stn is a cheap trinket anyway |
| 01:15.37 | raster | just power supply, usb hub and lcd->dfvi breakout |
| 01:16.01 | raster | (with power cable, and probably supplied with a hdmi->dvi cable for the screen) |
| 01:16.04 | *** join/#openmoko lysanderslair (n=jeff@bas5-london14-1177976091.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 01:16.13 | raster | leave the kbd/mouse up to the user as thsoe ara highly personal preferences |
| 01:16.26 | holycow | lol and the docking station is nothing more than what we have (an lcd) plus the other 3 items |
| 01:16.59 | holycow | now, if i only had half a mil to blow |
| 01:17.00 | holycow | lol |
| 01:17.03 | holycow | :) |
| 01:17.07 | raster | hehehe |
| 01:17.46 | raster | dont we all |
| 01:17.52 | holycow | :) |
| 01:18.12 | holycow | lets see |
| 01:18.24 | holycow | chinese like minimum orders in what ... 10k unites? |
| 01:18.26 | holycow | units |
| 01:19.06 | raster | well i am estimating for a 10k production run u'd have a retail price of pushing around $800-$900 or so |
| 01:19.17 | raster | if u can jump the next level and do a 200-500k run |
| 01:19.25 | raster | u'd be able to halve that easily |
| 01:19.30 | holycow | so 10 mil startup costs |
| 01:19.31 | holycow | heh |
| 01:19.42 | SpeedEvil | offers $10. |
| 01:19.49 | holycow | SpeedEvil: lol |
| 01:19.55 | raster | no thats be retail price |
| 01:20.01 | raster | production/bom is diferent |
| 01:20.07 | raster | and u have r&d, certifications etc. etc. |
| 01:20.09 | cb22 | I'll match SpeedEvil's offer and raise $2 |
| 01:20.10 | holycow | yeah but margins are no better than 15% |
| 01:20.34 | raster | cb22: margins will need to be high on a low-run device |
| 01:20.39 | raster | as initial costs are high |
| 01:20.48 | raster | ONCe u have a series of devices |
| 01:20.50 | raster | or large runs |
| 01:20.56 | raster | u can look at % margin per unit |
| 01:21.02 | holycow | so the key then is arm + windows to get the super large volumes |
| 01:21.11 | holycow | to drop the price down enough to run linux |
| 01:21.13 | holycow | lol |
| 01:21.18 | raster | or make them give up on windows |
| 01:21.23 | raster | ie provide "all you need" |
| 01:21.30 | raster | oddly enouhg if you market it as a PHONE |
| 01:21.31 | raster | this is easier |
| 01:21.39 | holycow | thats an interesting idea |
| 01:21.40 | Tm_T | raster: indeed |
| 01:21.49 | raster | as the psyhce for phones is mroe the "it doesnt matter if its windows or not" world |
| 01:21.51 | holycow | its not a computer its a phone |
| 01:21.54 | raster | if u market it as a "mini laptop" |
| 01:21.57 | holycow | huh i didn't think about that |
| 01:21.59 | holycow | no kiding |
| 01:21.59 | Tm_T | especially as Windows Mobile is really horrible, especially as phone |
| 01:22.01 | raster | u get the "so where's windows?" argument |
| 01:22.10 | holycow | yeah wow i never thought of that |
| 01:22.19 | holycow | and all of a sudden you have a 100 million devices out there doing everyting you need |
| 01:22.22 | holycow | *hmm* |
| 01:22.25 | holycow | i think you are on to something |
| 01:22.25 | raster | so you will be making a BET that peolpe see it as a phone |
| 01:22.28 | raster | not a laptop |
| 01:22.31 | holycow | right |
| 01:22.40 | raster | and thus be much more willing to not worry on the "is it windows" argument |
| 01:22.42 | holycow | while all the whil eyou are changing the playing ground |
| 01:22.50 | holycow | holy crap will that piss off two very very large companies |
| 01:23.03 | raster | thats also a danger |
| 01:23.04 | raster | if ua re small |
| 01:23.09 | raster | you will be squashed like a bug |
| 01:23.20 | holycow | i don't see anyone pulling off a thing like that |
| 01:23.24 | holycow | except amd :) |
| 01:23.47 | holycow | well you know ... |
| 01:24.10 | holycow | freescale just might be kinda thinking about this |
| 01:24.17 | holycow | its not like they haven't thought about it |
| 01:24.26 | holycow | so raster, what do you say we prime the pump here? |
| 01:24.42 | holycow | we put up a finished product design based on off the shelf hardware |
| 01:24.45 | holycow | document it all in a wiki |
| 01:24.52 | holycow | promote it on digg, reddit and tech sites |
| 01:24.55 | holycow | and see who makes it? |
| 01:25.07 | holycow | lol :) |
| 01:25.13 | SpeedEvil | doesn't work so well |
| 01:25.29 | SpeedEvil | Document it, and you reduce the barrier to copying. |
| 01:25.44 | SpeedEvil | reduce the barrier to copying, and you reduce the profit that anyone building it can make. |
| 01:25.55 | holycow | the barriers is already 0 |
| 01:26.00 | SpeedEvil | So you don't end up with anyone trying. (worst case) |
| 01:26.01 | holycow | its all off the shelf technology |
| 01:26.06 | Slaxxer | someone WILL make it |
| 01:26.07 | holycow | the only thing not off the shelf is the phone app |
| 01:26.12 | raster | holycow: chances are u want a prototype |
| 01:26.19 | raster | that works 'in principle' |
| 01:26.29 | SpeedEvil | It's 'off the shelf technology' |
| 01:26.38 | holycow | that would cost at leat 10k |
| 01:26.47 | SpeedEvil | holycow: but devloping it is going to take >>$10K |
| 01:26.47 | raster | and then you want to find... investors willing to pony up the big bucks to turn it into a production-run design and get a first batch done |
| 01:27.01 | raster | and then u have the logistics costs and certification |
| 01:27.08 | raster | and then.. marketing and support |
| 01:27.13 | SpeedEvil | holycow: the tooling for a production phone will run at least double that. |
| 01:27.28 | SpeedEvil | holycow: and then the funding for a batch of 100 or 500 |
| 01:27.34 | holycow | lol |
| 01:27.46 | raster | SpeedEvil: and the cost of the design itself |
| 01:27.51 | raster | and thats just board+components |
| 01:27.53 | *** join/#openmoko Arg0naut (n=steveois@CPE001c10acab63-CM000a7369b290.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 01:27.56 | raster | no case |
| 01:28.10 | raster | tho these days i'd just do the case on a 3d printer |
| 01:28.11 | holycow | hehehe :) |
| 01:28.16 | holycow | ah man, you guys are dream killers |
| 01:28.17 | SpeedEvil | holycow: at the level of 1-2 chips, and some passives, you can pretty much design it in a few days and have confidence itll work. |
| 01:28.18 | raster | and only make like 2 or 3 to "show" |
| 01:28.34 | raster | SpeedEvil: actuyally.. i have the money for that |
| 01:28.45 | SpeedEvil | holycow: at this sort of level - with dozens of chips - and hundreds of passives, you're looking at real effort. |
| 01:28.50 | raster | for doing board design, tooling for a small run of maybe 10 or 20 |
| 01:28.58 | SpeedEvil | holycow: and many revisions to get it right. |
| 01:29.05 | holycow | heh |
| 01:29.06 | raster | enough to get a few of them working and demonstrated |
| 01:29.07 | SpeedEvil | raster: :) |
| 01:29.28 | holycow | purely speculative ... what can it cost to get 1 built? |
| 01:29.31 | SpeedEvil | raster: or do wacky stuff. Like wooden cases. Polished walnut. |
| 01:29.40 | raster | holycow: SpeedEvil was just teloing u |
| 01:29.40 | raster | :) |
| 01:29.41 | holycow | just one of those dev dealies where all parts are on a rtable |
| 01:29.45 | SpeedEvil | holycow: $20K |
| 01:29.47 | holycow | oh hehe nm |
| 01:29.54 | raster | budget $20-40k |
| 01:30.03 | raster | and that will probably get you about 20 of them |
| 01:30.14 | SpeedEvil | Though 1 will be not much less |
| 01:30.16 | raster | (this is why dev boards are so fricken expensive as they are low volume) |
| 01:30.19 | Slaxxer | if only u had the bucks to step up to the plate |
| 01:30.26 | raster | SpeedEvil: yup. |
| 01:30.34 | raster | so if u do 1, do 20 |
| 01:30.39 | holycow | i thought 1 demo unit originally would be more than 10k yeah i can see that |
| 01:30.39 | raster | u have backups for when they fry |
| 01:30.46 | raster | and can give them away to strategic people |
| 01:30.58 | raster | Slaxxer: i'm stepping up |
| 01:30.59 | holycow | well if you only have 40k and do a few demo ... its kind a waste |
| 01:31.06 | holycow | i mean if you are going to do it you want to do it right |
| 01:31.08 | Slaxxer | once u get past a certain point its all good as long as people dont try to get a monthly salery an stuff |
| 01:31.13 | raster | holycow: no. thats reality in the hw bizx |
| 01:31.16 | holycow | all you are buyign with 40k is a right to play at the poker table |
| 01:31.18 | Slaxxer | i know u are |
| 01:31.29 | holycow | and you are likely to get killed negotiating |
| 01:31.29 | raster | this is why r&d is costly |
| 01:31.51 | raster | like many things |
| 01:31.53 | raster | its a risk |
| 01:31.56 | raster | you invest it |
| 01:31.59 | raster | toub build |
| 01:32.24 | raster | then you need to sell the thing to investors to pump in more to fund the rest of dev |
| 01:32.30 | raster | ie final design tweaks |
| 01:32.33 | raster | certification |
| 01:32.38 | raster | software polish |
| 01:32.40 | holycow | if i had 100k to gamble on this |
| 01:32.42 | raster | case and other things |
| 01:32.45 | holycow | i totally would |
| 01:32.47 | Slaxxer | its a tough road |
| 01:32.49 | raster | marketing logistics etc. |
| 01:32.58 | raster | the rest of that will make another 100-200k disappear |
| 01:33.06 | raster | before you have even produced your first production unit |
| 01:33.08 | holycow | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:33.18 | holycow | but the one thing is i know nothign about the hw biz at all |
| 01:33.19 | raster | THEN u need to find maybe a few million to fund the first batch |
| 01:33.29 | raster | ie u make 5000 units in the batch |
| 01:33.41 | holycow | and you need to find customers at approximately the same time |
| 01:33.45 | raster | lets say just the prdocution cost is $500/unit with parts and labor and so on |
| 01:33.49 | raster | 500 |
| 01:33.53 | raster | 500*5000 |
| 01:34.09 | raster | (2.5mil) |
| 01:34.18 | holycow | yup |
| 01:34.24 | raster | so by now u've watched 3mil basically vanish |
| 01:34.31 | raster | and you have 5000 devices to sell |
| 01:34.40 | raster | and you havent even got staff or an office yet |
| 01:34.42 | Tm_T | and selling cost more |
| 01:35.00 | Slaxxer | better be a good sdevice |
| 01:35.07 | holycow | so this is why cel manufacturers sell to network carriers |
| 01:35.27 | Dave | one meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelleon |
| 01:35.35 | raster | yup |
| 01:35.40 | Tm_T | holycow: yes, because they are cowards |
| 01:35.43 | raster | as a telco will BYU 50,000 in one lot |
| 01:36.03 | raster | once you get to those scales you have lower costs |
| 01:36.09 | raster | you can order parts in bulk and save |
| 01:36.10 | holycow | Tm_T: well the consumer space is so crowded and fragmented, its also a lot easier if you can hit a niche they are looking for |
| 01:36.18 | Tm_T | holycow: I know |
| 01:36.18 | raster | some parts can drop to 1/20th the price |
| 01:36.19 | Slaxxer | one sale to at&t your good to go |
| 01:36.23 | raster | buying 100000 vs 1 |
| 01:36.44 | holycow | interesting |
| 01:36.45 | raster | even 1000 vs 100000 can see in some case half the price per component |
| 01:36.53 | raster | this is why om has a hard time |
| 01:37.09 | raster | the competitors deal in quantities so massive that everyone is geared up for that kind of volume |
| 01:37.21 | holycow | totally makes sense |
| 01:37.22 | raster | if you are not in that game - you get to feed off the scraps/leftovers |
| 01:37.30 | raster | thats why the iphoen canbe so cheap to make |
| 01:37.39 | holycow | its stll not that cheap imho |
| 01:37.50 | raster | apple just walks in with a big bag of money and goes "We'll buy 10 million of that chip thanks. what price will you give us?" |
| 01:38.00 | holycow | i think what you are saying is it costs 600 retail and not 1k maybe |
| 01:38.10 | raster | and then vendors are worried much mroe about the problem of "how the fuck do i PRODUCE 10mil of that item?" |
| 01:38.16 | SpeedEvil | raster: naah |
| 01:38.17 | raster | and thats a problem they LIKE ot have |
| 01:38.29 | SpeedEvil | raster: they get several vendors reps in a room, and get them to low-bid |
| 01:38.32 | *** join/#openmoko cb22 (n=federico@moinmoin/developer/federico) |
| 01:38.33 | Slaxxer | what was it 179 us dollars to build it |
| 01:38.35 | *** join/#openmoko cb22__ (n=federico@dsl-245-176-52.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 01:38.38 | raster | holycow: oh 600 just covers COSTS |
| 01:38.49 | raster | havent got an office, staff, secretary, manager, enigneers, etc. |
| 01:39.02 | raster | this would be a vusiness run out of homes for fun |
| 01:39.03 | holycow | cost of production right |
| 01:39.07 | raster | and 600/unit might do it |
| 01:39.21 | raster | SpeedEvil: true- i skipepd that bit |
| 01:39.28 | *** join/#openmoko wejp (n=wejp@moon.spacetechnology.net) |
| 01:39.30 | raster | SpeedEvil: but not in 1 room |
| 01:39.31 | raster | they go to 1 |
| 01:39.37 | raster | and say "what will you do it for" |
| 01:39.40 | raster | then talk to vendor 2 |
| 01:39.47 | raster | and say "but vendor 1 offered X" |
| 01:39.49 | raster | and so on |
| 01:39.50 | SpeedEvil | yeah - virtually |
| 01:39.57 | raster | and over time get them to come down |
| 01:39.58 | holycow | wow, thats killer |
| 01:40.06 | raster | but playing them off against eachother |
| 01:40.12 | raster | but they all want to as they know apple has the $ |
| 01:40.14 | *** join/#openmoko johny__1 (n=johny@69-84-113-237-dhcp.mia.fl.atlanticbb.net) |
| 01:40.16 | *** join/#openmoko ace_ (n=ace@ns1.nologin.org) |
| 01:40.18 | raster | its a guaranteed payday |
| 01:40.19 | SpeedEvil | If you're buying 1000 - the vendor is in control. |
| 01:40.26 | SpeedEvil | Buy 10 million, and you are. |
| 01:40.45 | raster | so you will NEVER be able to compete on price with the big boys |
| 01:40.49 | raster | even palm and rim |
| 01:40.53 | raster | or motorola and nokia |
| 01:40.54 | raster | etc. |
| 01:40.57 | raster | they just are to obig |
| 01:40.58 | SpeedEvil | Well - unless they are making extreme profits. |
| 01:41.03 | *** join/#openmoko kasjo_screen (i=kasjo@gdy-cie.dotyka-to.myslisz.ze.to.cza.ry.pl) |
| 01:41.03 | raster | so you need to compete on somethgin else they arent |
| 01:41.12 | raster | SpeedEvil: in many cases they are :) |
| 01:41.16 | SpeedEvil | you can't compete on cost, no. |
| 01:41.18 | holycow | well the problem really is that if its off the shelf hardware |
| 01:41.20 | holycow | + linux |
| 01:41.23 | SpeedEvil | but on price - maybe in some cases |
| 01:41.24 | holycow | if you make any sales |
| 01:41.33 | holycow | the big boys just pump out the exact same in no time too |
| 01:41.39 | holycow | so even when you win you loose |
| 01:42.01 | Slaxxer | dammit man |
| 01:42.19 | Slaxxer | u build so they clone |
| 01:42.23 | holycow | a device of this type is perfect for a super large vendor that can put their weight behind something like that for an extended period |
| 01:42.48 | raster | holycow: the big boys.. move much mroe slowly |
| 01:42.51 | raster | that is the advantage |
| 01:42.55 | holycow | do they? |
| 01:42.59 | raster | they have 2532 layers of management |
| 01:43.08 | raster | and for a decision to take effect it needs to travers many of them |
| 01:43.15 | SpeedEvil | In principle, the big boys could move lots faster. |
| 01:43.17 | holycow | see i think this is where apple pulled a great nike |
| 01:43.21 | holycow | you are right raster |
| 01:43.21 | SpeedEvil | They have the design teams, and the money. |
| 01:43.25 | raster | they are oftne scare of what they are not totally familiar with |
| 01:43.27 | raster | and will dither |
| 01:43.27 | holycow | apple sells now the same shit everyone does |
| 01:43.37 | raster | the only advantages you have are being more nimble |
| 01:43.39 | SpeedEvil | They can press 'go' immediately that the decision at the top is made. In practuce, not. |
| 01:43.40 | holycow | but because they have managed to create perceived value around that brand |
| 01:43.46 | holycow | people are willing to pay for it |
| 01:43.53 | raster | SpeedEvil: yes - in theory :) but they dont |
| 01:43.57 | holycow | do you think something like that can be a market advantage? |
| 01:44.04 | raster | something like the iphone started years before it came out |
| 01:44.04 | cb22 | meh |
| 01:44.08 | raster | same with most products |
| 01:44.09 | cb22 | I want to win the lottery |
| 01:44.14 | raster | they start w long before as an idea |
| 01:44.22 | raster | float about and go thru committes and approval stages |
| 01:44.27 | raster | and get passed around for "input" |
| 01:44.28 | raster | etc. |
| 01:44.33 | holycow | maybe mark shuttleworth has passing interest in something like this |
| 01:44.36 | holycow | lol |
| 01:44.38 | cb22 | then i'll fund a crazy idea like this |
| 01:44.47 | raster | holycow: possibly - possibly not |
| 01:44.56 | raster | but i suspect his money and focus is tied up in ubuntu |
| 01:44.58 | raster | last i knew it was |
| 01:45.03 | raster | he had enough on his plate |
| 01:45.38 | holycow | yeah its a far large investmet than i think he expected |
| 01:45.43 | holycow | with very small return |
| 01:45.51 | holycow | he says he will break even on ubuntu in about two years |
| 01:46.05 | holycow | with the economy who knows but he said he made the mistake of focusing on the desktop and not the server |
| 01:46.15 | cb22 | it's one of those things thats hard to translate into cash. |
| 01:46.25 | holycow | i think they will find the money, he's a smart and tough cookie |
| 01:46.34 | cb22 | i did say hard, not impossible |
| 01:46.52 | holycow | yeah i think his ubuntu play potentially has good payoff |
| 01:47.08 | cb22 | curses kde4 and nvidia |
| 01:47.19 | holycow | you cant beat that desktop and when you tie that into some enterprisey server end of things, he can start charging good margins for service on that |
| 01:47.31 | cb22 | i guess my xeons and 9800gtx aren't fast enough to support kwin's compositing :( |
| 01:48.00 | holycow | raster: so do we start trolly for white night investors that will take 100% control of the company then ditch us later for some cheaper talent? |
| 01:48.02 | holycow | hehehe |
| 01:48.07 | *** join/#openmoko Rayan (n=andre@83.70.173.25) |
| 01:48.11 | holycow | trolling i mean |
| 01:48.13 | holycow | haha |
| 01:48.34 | raster | holycow: wel desktop gets visibility |
| 01:48.35 | holycow | cb22 i have an i7 at home with an 8800 |
| 01:48.36 | raster | server doesnt |
| 01:48.39 | holycow | super fast ... should be more than fine |
| 01:48.47 | raster | but he should have simply made the desktop also servier-friendly |
| 01:49.00 | raster | ie include al the usual server tools on the desktop and fulyl support them |
| 01:49.01 | raster | anyway |
| 01:49.07 | cb22 | holycow, thats the thing, gnome with compiz runs at crazy speeds. but kde4... |
| 01:49.10 | holycow | i think thats their next step |
| 01:49.12 | cb22 | which is a pity, since i like kde |
| 01:49.15 | holycow | i think he realizes that |
| 01:49.27 | holycow | cb22 are you running beta or 4.1? |
| 01:49.40 | raster | holycow: thats the point of doing a prototype first |
| 01:49.45 | raster | dont start with just an idea and words |
| 01:49.50 | raster | have something actually working |
| 01:49.52 | raster | software, hw and all |
| 01:49.58 | raster | you are in aVERY strong position to bargain |
| 01:49.59 | cb22 | 4.2 beta |
| 01:50.00 | raster | and keep control |
| 01:50.01 | holycow | raster: so walk into a meeting with a fully working demo eh? |
| 01:50.08 | raster | yup |
| 01:50.09 | holycow | cb22, yeah i'm running project neon at home ... tis fine |
| 01:50.13 | raster | it may be a board with wires |
| 01:50.16 | raster | but its working |
| 01:50.21 | raster | it needs some plastic |
| 01:50.28 | raster | hell - the plastic can be arranged via a 3d printer |
| 01:50.32 | raster | and a custom 1-off craft job |
| 01:50.37 | holycow | well you can mount a lot of that in nicely driled lexan or something |
| 01:50.45 | raster | with some glue, spraypaint etc. |
| 01:50.50 | holycow | yeah exactly |
| 01:50.52 | raster | if its a demo for 3investors - it'd be worth it |
| 01:50.56 | raster | yup |
| 01:51.00 | raster | i;'d just go the 3d printer |
| 01:51.04 | raster | enough for the demo |
| 01:51.05 | holycow | lol! |
| 01:51.07 | holycow | you know what? |
| 01:51.23 | raster | http://www.shapeways.com/ |
| 01:51.26 | raster | already handled |
| 01:51.27 | holycow | i haven't had the time but i've been meaning to order some demo units from online printers for the moko |
| 01:51.29 | holycow | hehe |
| 01:51.30 | raster | u pay per cubice cm |
| 01:51.31 | Sharwin_F | Is there any command to refresh the icons on the dektop? |
| 01:51.38 | raster | hell - can even do the model in blender |
| 01:51.43 | holycow | raster,that could even look pretty good |
| 01:51.51 | raster | it'd be enough for a prototype |
| 01:51.59 | raster | some car touchup spraypaint to color it |
| 01:52.05 | Sharwin_F | o ite refereshes by itself :P |
| 01:52.05 | holycow | raster, lol i'm blender friendly |
| 01:52.07 | holycow | heh |
| 01:52.14 | raster | and some custom work for a clear plexiglass front |
| 01:52.26 | Slaxxer | raster plugs his blender in |
| 01:52.42 | cb22 | if you guys ever make a phone, i'll buy it! :) |
| 01:52.49 | Slaxxer | u guys are almost there |
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| 01:53.06 | Slaxxer | bear down |
| 01:53.18 | holycow | looks at the number of people in the chan |
| 01:53.19 | holycow | 304 |
| 01:53.35 | Dave | bears!? |
| 01:53.37 | Slaxxer | where did everyone go? |
| 01:53.38 | Dave | WHERE |
| 01:53.40 | Dave | Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah |
| 01:53.58 | raster | cb22: :) |
| 01:54.01 | holycow | $20000 / 304 = $65 per person |
| 01:54.04 | holycow | *cough* |
| 01:54.05 | raster | cb22: working on it... |
| 01:54.11 | raster | i hjave done a lot of.. research |
| 01:54.12 | holycow | hehe :) |
| 01:54.13 | raster | and planning |
| 01:54.46 | raster | i have the person for the board design |
| 01:54.51 | raster | they can get it to prototype production |
| 01:54.54 | raster | and out |
| 01:55.05 | raster | i've been selecting components carefully |
| 01:55.28 | holycow | hey, i'll put up a wiki for ya and do graphic desing |
| 01:55.29 | raster | 3g and touchscreen are still in progress for chekcing out |
| 01:55.42 | raster | but i have targets |
| 01:56.01 | holycow | but i know sonothing about the business or even where to approach for an investor |
| 01:56.11 | raster | i can get this to prototype without any extra investments |
| 01:56.19 | raster | so to the "pitch to investors with the real $" |
| 01:56.27 | raster | so technically - i am the "angel investor" myself |
| 01:56.37 | holycow | well if you need some help i'm around and interested |
| 01:56.38 | raster | so i've already done the first round of funding |
| 01:56.52 | raster | ie me talking to myself and convincing myself to lay down some hard earned dosh |
| 01:56.56 | holycow | lol |
| 01:57.00 | cb22 | hehe |
| 01:57.12 | raster | the problem is the next stage |
| 01:57.20 | raster | whihc is going to need somewhere in the millions of $ |
| 01:57.26 | holycow | well you overkame probably my only objection and that was the kb ...if thats doable we will buy |
| 01:57.43 | raster | well seriously |
| 01:57.46 | holycow | i have an email trhead of my ceo asking me about going to all laptops and smarthpones |
| 01:57.50 | raster | *IF* we can get enouhg funding |
| 01:57.58 | raster | i'm willing to entertain a kbd |
| 01:58.12 | raster | but i have put a kbd in the "expensive" land for getting this started |
| 01:58.33 | raster | i already have telco's interested in the idea |
| 01:58.42 | holycow | i would be more apt to spend cash on doing some research on the demand side of things |
| 01:58.43 | raster | that means big orders |
| 01:58.48 | cb22 | i was toying with an idea for a highly efficent console touchscreen keyboard |
| 01:58.54 | SpeedEvil | the hardware is the easy part |
| 01:58.58 | raster | holycow: spent years doing the research |
| 01:58.59 | holycow | i know that I THINK there are people that would buy just like we are |
| 01:59.06 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: the keyboard is the easy part |
| 01:59.13 | raster | i estimate the enthusiast nerd market tto be about 20-50k units per year |
| 01:59.16 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: the hard bit is training the users |
| 01:59.23 | raster | thats the linux hackers/professionals with disposable income |
| 01:59.24 | holycow | oh so you basically just asked me a few questions here and notice i fall into some of those demographics? |
| 01:59.32 | holycow | lol |
| 01:59.39 | raster | anything more than that is a bonus |
| 01:59.49 | holycow | is that enough to make a go of it? |
| 01:59.51 | raster | holycow: up |
| 01:59.55 | raster | i always ask |
| 02:00.01 | raster | i then go "aaah one of THSOE guys" |
| 02:00.03 | cb22 | SpeedEvil, something along the lines of mixing autocompletion with t9 |
| 02:00.13 | raster | (and i have you all pinned down in your little box) |
| 02:00.14 | raster | :) |
| 02:00.19 | holycow | lol |
| 02:00.28 | holycow | well if you've done the research thats perfect |
| 02:00.30 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: fundamental problem that you need to either internalise the dict, or stare at it |
| 02:00.35 | raster | i started this whole "open linux phone that can do more than just the basics" going sicne like 2001 or so |
| 02:00.38 | cb22 | so if you press 1877 (8=tuv, 7=pqrs), you'll get /usr |
| 02:00.40 | raster | thats when i started gettign into embedded |
| 02:00.46 | holycow | oh really? |
| 02:00.50 | holycow | huh neat |
| 02:01.02 | raster | i've been follwing the market ever since |
| 02:01.09 | SpeedEvil | started it earlier. |
| 02:01.15 | SpeedEvil | (though not as a phone) |
| 02:01.21 | raster | i predicted back in 2003 that linux will "own" the market (> 50%) of cellphones in 10 years |
| 02:01.26 | holycow | i'd like to encourage you to follow up on the spec we roughly described but i hate encouraging anyone to put up hard saved cash on a business that competitive |
| 02:01.27 | SpeedEvil | I have some solid models of a chording palmtop. |
| 02:01.28 | raster | but userspace will be split |
| 02:01.31 | holycow | i'd like to help |
| 02:01.33 | raster | some with x11 based satuff |
| 02:01.38 | *** join/#openmoko rmoravcik (n=rmoravci@ip-89-102-255-171.karneval.cz) |
| 02:01.39 | raster | others with custom ui frameworks/fb based |
| 02:01.45 | raster | so its fragmented higher up |
| 02:01.50 | raster | and thats just whats happening |
| 02:01.55 | holycow | i'm in this channel because i always expected moko to evolve into what you described |
| 02:02.03 | raster | pretty much everything i predicted camee true - and iw as on the pesssimistic side |
| 02:02.10 | raster | so i'm fairly confident in my other numbers |
| 02:02.27 | holycow | huh |
| 02:02.29 | raster | as "i was right" has been the flavor of the month for the predictions |
| 02:02.32 | SpeedEvil | with PCMCIA disk, 386/33 processor, handheld, several hour battery life, and virtual display. |
| 02:02.32 | holycow | thats pretty frakin cool |
| 02:02.48 | raster | so market- it's there |
| 02:02.54 | raster | i'm a pessimist |
| 02:02.57 | holycow | raster: so then what you are saying is if this business has 100+ desktops/laptops that could be replaced with such a unit |
| 02:02.58 | raster | so i always err on the low side |
| 02:03.01 | holycow | we aren't the only ones |
| 02:03.06 | holycow | over and above the nerd market |
| 02:03.10 | raster | holycow: yup bet. |
| 02:03.14 | raster | you |
| 02:03.28 | holycow | holyshit |
| 02:03.31 | holycow | you know what tho? |
| 02:03.31 | Dave | hahaha |
| 02:03.33 | holycow | you can also do? |
| 02:03.37 | raster | i know there are a lot of baks out there wthat would love a phone they can tear the os apart on |
| 02:03.40 | holycow | my business partner and i (we are contractors) |
| 02:03.43 | raster | and lock it down for their traders/staff |
| 02:03.49 | raster | fopr security |
| 02:03.51 | holycow | we have been putting together open source business solutions for a few years now |
| 02:03.57 | raster | they dont want tojust add a few java/web/whatever apps |
| 02:04.01 | holycow | we install things like mail servers, smb ledger, project open |
| 02:04.07 | holycow | all sorts of things here and there |
| 02:04.07 | raster | they ant to rip out whole internals and tie it into their corporate systems |
| 02:04.18 | holycow | if we were to say do somethign like this: |
| 02:04.22 | holycow | a: you have this device |
| 02:04.41 | raster | what i will need - once i have a prototypye, is "letters of intent" |
| 02:04.41 | holycow | b: we need only a few local shops to offer a full suite of business frontend and backend |
| 02:04.44 | raster | that is not a contract |
| 02:04.50 | raster | its a letter of interest from a customer |
| 02:05.05 | holycow | c: mark shuttleworth onboard with ubuntu support plus whatever he wants in terms of helping build the network out |
| 02:05.13 | raster | they say "*IF u have thing x and price Y, we are absolutely sure we will want to buy $Z units per annum" |
| 02:05.18 | holycow | what you could end up doing is a 'business in a box' |
| 02:05.23 | raster | it shows a serious expesssion of interest |
| 02:05.24 | holycow | don't buy a computer, buy a phone. |
| 02:05.28 | raster | not just fanboys posting blogs |
| 02:05.32 | holycow | the rest you can buy from service providers and mark shuttleworth |
| 02:05.38 | raster | but real dollars and cents saying "we want to be spent" |
| 02:05.54 | holycow | raster: i can get a letter of intent from this company yes. |
| 02:06.01 | raster | cool |
| 02:06.05 | raster | they arent legally binding things |
| 02:06.09 | holycow | for minimum 50 units, 100 units over a period of predefined time |
| 02:06.11 | raster | so they generally are safe to give out |
| 02:06.21 | holycow | well these guys would get that looked over by a lawyer |
| 02:06.29 | raster | but they show investors "market.. here.. waiting to spend - already have the contacts. we just need to produce" |
| 02:06.33 | raster | and then of course extrapolate |
| 02:06.38 | raster | if u can get 10 letters of intent |
| 02:06.43 | raster | that total 20,000 units |
| 02:06.55 | raster | that is just a "beginningt" |
| 02:07.17 | raster | of course investors would exptrapolate and say "Well once it actually exists you'd at least double that volume from the others who would jump on it" |
| 02:07.19 | raster | etc, |
| 02:07.24 | holycow | you know if you come out and put a business in a box ina phone |
| 02:07.29 | holycow | a lot of small business will start with that |
| 02:07.31 | holycow | don't forget |
| 02:07.38 | raster | yup |
| 02:07.39 | raster | i know |
| 02:07.39 | holycow | we can also sell them back end stuff to for cheap and make a good profit |
| 02:07.47 | raster | you'd sell a lot of ones-ies and two-sies |
| 02:07.49 | holycow | all the open source accounting, etc. is ready to go |
| 02:08.07 | mpr | http://i.gizmodo.com/5125930/sony-vaio-p-super-dont+call+it+a+netbook-hands-on |
| 02:08.10 | holycow | what my business partner and i are doing is building our selves up to a point where we can start to package units of support for all of these products |
| 02:08.17 | holycow | if you go, i can put all that on yoru phoen |
| 02:08.20 | mpr | I'd say that'll beat the fujitsu mentioned earlier |
| 02:08.29 | holycow | that TOTALLY changes the marketplace for a lot of our other clients as well |
| 02:08.39 | holycow | mpr: i have one, i'd sell mine tomorrow if i had this |
| 02:08.50 | raster | holycow: sounds good |
| 02:08.58 | raster | i know theres lots of vertical market ti-ins to bne had |
| 02:09.08 | Arg0naut | 10,000 phones sold an hour on average in india |
| 02:09.09 | Arg0naut | http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Business/India_Business/10000_cell_phones_sold_in_India_every_hour_IDC/articleshow/3146110.cms |
| 02:09.12 | raster | and lots of business like one-stop-shops that "set them up" |
| 02:09.15 | holycow | i think i might know a money guy or two now tha ti think about it |
| 02:09.20 | mpr | (still catching up on backlog, just had to mention that when I reached the fujitsu discussion :P) |
| 02:09.24 | raster | they dont have the time or energy to bother - they have a business to worry about |
| 02:09.25 | raster | not infra |
| 02:09.32 | holycow | that might know other money people ... which could be interesting |
| 02:09.42 | raster | thats generally the way of it |
| 02:09.46 | holycow | raster: most of our cliensta are small to micro businesses |
| 02:09.48 | raster | you know 1 guy who knwos another |
| 02:09.49 | holycow | a few are approaching mid |
| 02:09.52 | holycow | mid being 20mil plus |
| 02:09.54 | raster | who knows someoen else who has big bucks |
| 02:09.57 | holycow | most of them don't need windows |
| 02:10.02 | holycow | and if they do it can be done over rdp |
| 02:10.09 | holycow | i could easily convince a lot of them to go with this |
| 02:10.10 | raster | and often they have monye friends too |
| 02:10.17 | raster | that are linked to a venture fund |
| 02:10.23 | holycow | with my client i have pull, their eyes would pop out at this |
| 02:10.24 | raster | or want to have an investment group |
| 02:10.37 | raster | (angel group - though i think this is beyond angel funding) |
| 02:10.49 | raster | well |
| 02:10.52 | raster | for this u'd need a prototype |
| 02:10.52 | Dave | well then, I hope you're ready to collect their eyeballs, holycow :) |
| 02:10.56 | raster | and .. that means making one |
| 02:11.00 | holycow | Dave: lol |
| 02:11.03 | raster | and that means.. designing and producing it |
| 02:11.05 | Dave | bring a bucket :D |
| 02:11.12 | holycow | raster: so 20k up front? |
| 02:11.22 | raster | once that exists... it shouldnt be hard to garner interest with something approacing a nice case |
| 02:11.35 | raster | and some youtube action of showing it working |
| 02:11.38 | raster | holycow: got that |
| 02:11.44 | raster | holycow: and more to spare |
| 02:12.07 | holycow | lol makes me feel poor |
| 02:12.08 | holycow | heh |
| 02:12.12 | raster | its the next round that troubles me |
| 02:12.25 | raster | holycow: i've been saving to buy a house |
| 02:12.29 | raster | and thats not to put a deposit |
| 02:12.31 | holycow | well i used to be a graphic designer, i have an it and business background |
| 02:12.32 | raster | when i say buy |
| 02:12.33 | raster | i mean buy |
| 02:12.34 | holycow | but fucking no time |
| 02:12.54 | raster | been working post-university for over a decade |
| 02:12.56 | holycow | raster: yeah i mean i'm not sure you should blow that on a gadget like this |
| 02:12.59 | raster | so i've saves up some dosh |
| 02:13.03 | holycow | although you know your odds better than anyone |
| 02:13.12 | raster | it's a risk |
| 02:13.14 | raster | i know it is |
| 02:13.17 | raster | its a calculated risk |
| 02:13.23 | raster | i'm not sinking everything i have |
| 02:13.35 | raster | but i've set aside enough to do it |
| 02:13.42 | raster | as i siad - been doing the research for a long time |
| 02:13.47 | raster | i beliegve the odds are good |
| 02:13.57 | raster | chances are that u'd produce a 1st gen |
| 02:14.06 | raster | and probably captrue a niche market of nerrds |
| 02:14.07 | holycow | well i'm willing to help, i have no idea how but |
| 02:14.08 | raster | and fanboys |
| 02:14.13 | raster | and vertical business markets |
| 02:14.18 | holycow | i'm sure there are alot of people here that would be hugely interested too |
| 02:14.19 | raster | you'd survive ok on that to do a 2nd gen |
| 02:14.39 | raster | then 2nd gen would add missing things and break into a broader market |
| 02:14.40 | holycow | i mean you are giving them a full stack linux machine with no bullshit, and hopefully a working phoen app can be had someewhere down the raod |
| 02:14.48 | raster | at that point chances are someone will be eyeing you for a buyout |
| 02:14.51 | holycow | if you read the mailing lists thats what everyone wants |
| 02:14.56 | raster | as you have something unique they dont |
| 02:14.57 | holycow | install ubuntu / debian and fucking go |
| 02:15.00 | raster | and its cheaper to just buy you |
| 02:15.02 | holycow | with a working phone app |
| 02:15.02 | raster | while u are small |
| 02:15.09 | raster | that'd probably be 3 years down the track |
| 02:15.11 | holycow | yeah totally |
| 02:15.19 | holycow | you could probably sell out for a few mill |
| 02:15.25 | holycow | which buys th ehouse and time for the next gadget |
| 02:15.30 | raster | hahaha |
| 02:15.34 | raster | probably |
| 02:15.36 | raster | tho i'd stay |
| 02:15.37 | holycow | i think there is enough potential here to not only make the device |
| 02:15.41 | raster | as long as i get to kepe doing the stuff |
| 02:15.42 | Slaxxer | o no here we go |
| 02:15.45 | holycow | but use the device to spawn lots of other business |
| 02:16.01 | holycow | i'm betting mark shuttleworth would be interested because it does change the balance of power out there |
| 02:16.07 | holycow | in his favour hugely |
| 02:16.13 | holycow | its a race to the bottom and ubuntu is waiting |
| 02:16.19 | holycow | don't forget also |
| 02:16.22 | holycow | when looking for support |
| 02:16.36 | holycow | like you said, pulling in community, pulling in tech guys and companies to support this |
| 02:16.40 | raster | the problem is ubuntu itself is not that interesting |
| 02:16.46 | raster | u need to replace the ui pretty much |
| 02:16.50 | holycow | if its funded properly initially so the ecosystem can grow properly |
| 02:16.53 | raster | and at that point - what do u have? |
| 02:17.00 | holycow | i know A LOT of linux people in you wouldn't believe where |
| 02:17.11 | raster | but thats a technicality |
| 02:17.12 | raster | if it runs x |
| 02:17.14 | raster | and x apps |
| 02:17.15 | holycow | i have clients with offices in alberta in towns with 2000 people and i find linux guys there |
| 02:17.25 | raster | and you have a linxu distro with yoru standard libs like gtk, qt etc. |
| 02:17.28 | raster | the rest is moot |
| 02:17.37 | holycow | well let me address that for a sec |
| 02:17.52 | holycow | if you don't mind i have a theory of whats happening in that space so heres your chance to laugh |
| 02:18.00 | raster | ok |
| 02:18.00 | raster | :) |
| 02:18.07 | holycow | what microsoft did brilliantly is they split the software from big iron in the 70's / 80's |
| 02:18.34 | holycow | that split allowed further hardware splits down functional lines to allow us to now buy parts and put shit together and throw windows on and you have a cheap computer |
| 02:18.40 | raster | (rememebr ubutnu - canonical is a gnome house - you come to them with anything that isnt entirely gnome centric and its going to not get much traction) |
| 02:18.45 | holycow | yes i know |
| 02:18.52 | holycow | now the next thing that i think is happening |
| 02:18.57 | holycow | is as you pointed out |
| 02:19.03 | holycow | there is a split between the os and toolkit |
| 02:19.03 | SpeedEvil | linux=msdos |
| 02:19.09 | holycow | this is happening with kde4 |
| 02:19.09 | SpeedEvil | oh |
| 02:19.16 | holycow | kde4 is os agnostic |
| 02:19.31 | holycow | you write your app for kde4, the framework handles hardware abstration for you |
| 02:19.37 | holycow | thats the next split |
| 02:19.38 | holycow | imho |
| 02:19.59 | holycow | and my bet is that devices get just fast enough for kde4 to get just good enough to make this interesting |
| 02:20.00 | holycow | now |
| 02:20.07 | holycow | because the framework is abstracted and os agnostic |
| 02:20.14 | holycow | what you get is enterprisey possibility |
| 02:20.17 | holycow | kde is not well funded at all |
| 02:20.19 | holycow | but if it were |
| 02:20.32 | holycow | you could get all that policies and lockdown in a crossplatform way in nbo time |
| 02:20.34 | holycow | no time even |
| 02:20.45 | holycow | and with qt4.4 and up ... man its just looking sweet |
| 02:20.50 | holycow | so the kicker is this arm shit |
| 02:20.59 | holycow | its getting powerfull enough at low enough power consumption |
| 02:21.06 | holycow | that a generic 'one os to rule them all' |
| 02:21.10 | holycow | is probably around the corner |
| 02:21.22 | holycow | when you are no longer tied to the os, who gives a shit about windows? |
| 02:21.37 | holycow | write your apps on kde4 and run the on osx, bsd, arm, mips, whatever |
| 02:21.44 | SpeedEvil | binary distribution mitigates against. |
| 02:21.52 | holycow | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:21.55 | raster | well more people would argue that that is irrlevantand all that counts is the web browser |
| 02:21.56 | raster | :) |
| 02:22.10 | holycow | there is that too yes |
| 02:22.19 | holycow | i think of kde4 as one app |
| 02:22.21 | holycow | not many |
| 02:22.31 | *** join/#openmoko Alinermedia (n=jaranda@201.143.102.22.dsl.dyn.telnor.net) |
| 02:22.31 | holycow | when you write one app for kde4 you are adding to the borg collective |
| 02:22.39 | Dave | holycow, calm down sauron |
| 02:22.52 | holycow | so the ability to use local and network resources is more flexible than just network agnostic ... but again :() |
| 02:22.57 | holycow | :) what the hell do i know |
| 02:23.09 | Slaxxer | u will be assimilated |
| 02:23.16 | Dave | pictures himself taking holycow's holy grail of a mobile platform to the fiery pits of mordor |
| 02:23.19 | raster | :) |
| 02:23.26 | holycow | rofl |
| 02:23.31 | raster | and no reasy qt and kde libs cant ship on the device |
| 02:23.49 | Slaxxer | with his short legged friend |
| 02:23.52 | raster | everyone buys their software at the same open soruce store |
| 02:23.59 | raster | no need to invovle ubuntu other than for marketing |
| 02:24.12 | holycow | raster: i wouldn't ovelook that idea |
| 02:24.15 | SpeedEvil | open source doesn't work for everything. |
| 02:24.16 | Dave | slaxxin :) |
| 02:24.17 | raster | and thats going to cause trouble as u will have to fight them and the gnome ui for a phone |
| 02:24.24 | holycow | the store thing is more important than we open source zealots understand |
| 02:24.28 | Dave | holy war! |
| 02:24.29 | raster | also you do all the hard work anyway - tuning it to run on specific hardware |
| 02:24.33 | SpeedEvil | Some people actually do have IP. |
| 02:24.38 | holycow | iphone has proven that you can make a $.99 boobie shaking application and make a million |
| 02:24.51 | Slaxxer | linux:the real deal |
| 02:25.16 | holycow | raster: well there is a difference between 'supported / official platform' vesus 'opento hack' |
| 02:25.35 | holycow | the open to hack guys just want open, you can't tell them what to do |
| 02:25.41 | raster | correct |
| 02:25.45 | holycow | there is a whole other group of people, and if you read ubuntu forums they are there' |
| 02:25.49 | raster | they just want the ability to change anythign they want to change |
| 02:25.53 | raster | from bootloader up |
| 02:25.58 | holycow | that want to pay for a known working, my way or the highway, solution |
| 02:25.58 | raster | and i know |
| 02:26.04 | raster | that other group get the supported os |
| 02:26.11 | raster | but ubuntu will make that tough |
| 02:26.20 | raster | as u will need to redo the ui for the phone anyway |
| 02:26.23 | raster | so once u've done that |
| 02:26.27 | raster | "why bother" |
| 02:26.32 | holycow | ohhhh i see what you are saying |
| 02:26.32 | raster | OE already targets the cpu and device |
| 02:26.33 | holycow | well yes |
| 02:26.34 | raster | already works |
| 02:26.36 | holycow | i thought about that |
| 02:26.38 | raster | x is there |
| 02:26.39 | raster | e works |
| 02:26.39 | Dave | Sounds like West Side Story to me. |
| 02:26.41 | holycow | thats a hard one and you are right |
| 02:26.54 | raster | in fact e17 is the defacto defautl wm |
| 02:26.54 | holycow | you cant use desktop apps on small form factors |
| 02:26.54 | Slaxxer | i works |
| 02:26.55 | raster | already |
| 02:26.56 | cb22 | needs to find a life. i'm sitting here at 4:40am reading a conversation between raster and holycow with interest |
| 02:26.56 | raster | 0 work |
| 02:26.57 | raster | :) |
| 02:26.59 | holycow | the ui just isnt' designed for that |
| 02:27.04 | Dave | ah |
| 02:27.07 | raster | NO extra effort |
| 02:27.10 | holycow | cb22 with great appologies :) |
| 02:27.14 | Dave | makes the popcorn |
| 02:27.26 | raster | e already covers small form factor screens |
| 02:27.30 | cb22 | gets up and makes some too. seriously, i'm hungry |
| 02:27.35 | raster | as wel as ffull desktop windowed setups |
| 02:27.37 | SpeedEvil | makes the flaming torches, and hands them out. |
| 02:27.39 | holycow | raster: i don't think the window manager is the issue |
| 02:27.41 | raster | without extra work :) |
| 02:27.44 | holycow | its the application interface |
| 02:27.45 | SpeedEvil | Who's got the pitchforks? |
| 02:27.49 | raster | so now u have the apps |
| 02:27.56 | raster | apps will ned to cram onto a small screen |
| 02:28.02 | raster | so u're going to work hard on that |
| 02:28.04 | cb22 | SpeedEvil, you're in the UK right? |
| 02:28.05 | holycow | you can hack in functionality to kwin or whatever you want to handle a small screen |
| 02:28.05 | raster | at least for core apps |
| 02:28.05 | SpeedEvil | and work consistently |
| 02:28.09 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: yes |
| 02:28.16 | holycow | the concept was nicely covered by the new release of the palm |
| 02:28.22 | holycow | the old card idea from apple works well |
| 02:28.32 | holycow | the functionality of the wim isnt the problem |
| 02:28.32 | cb22 | nice to know i'm not alone in my insomniacness |
| 02:28.34 | raster | i know |
| 02:28.37 | Dave | :) |
| 02:28.40 | raster | but even within the card - u need to cram the ui in it |
| 02:28.43 | holycow | the problem is open offices ui takes all the screen realestate |
| 02:28.49 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: it |
| 02:28.53 | holycow | so do all kde apps |
| 02:28.56 | Dave | haha |
| 02:28.57 | SpeedEvil | s only 2AM here |
| 02:29.03 | Slaxxer | is the palm pre a generic linux that was forked? |
| 02:29.23 | holycow | so the question is can desktop apps be rewritten easily enough to have some sort of switch that allows small formfactor display |
| 02:29.26 | holycow | and how that would work i don't know |
| 02:29.40 | holycow | i imagine kde4 having dual modality for their uis |
| 02:29.43 | holycow | one is traditional desktop |
| 02:29.57 | holycow | another is a card mode where the ui comes up on a keystroke or something and goes away |
| 02:30.03 | cb22 | SpeedEvil, meh. I was trying to comfort myself :p |
| 02:30.10 | holycow | the second thing on a small device is this: |
| 02:30.23 | holycow | yes its a desktop on a phone, but YOU DON'T USE A PHONE FOR A DESKTOP |
| 02:30.32 | holycow | if you want frickin open office plug in and dont be a moron |
| 02:30.47 | holycow | phones are for im, email, texting, browsing sports scorse and shit like that |
| 02:30.51 | Dave | Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep |
| 02:30.52 | holycow | so what we can do is something like this |
| 02:31.03 | Slaxxer | need a set of display glasses with this thing |
| 02:31.08 | raster | holycow: they can |
| 02:31.12 | raster | but its a non-trivial effort |
| 02:31.21 | holycow | write a daemon that is permisive only for the apps that work in celphone mode |
| 02:31.22 | raster | so you probably need to break them up into libs vs ui |
| 02:31.28 | holycow | and if they want to bypass it they haveto type in a code |
| 02:31.28 | raster | ie libs that handle loading of .doc fiules |
| 02:31.33 | Slaxxer | display goggles:) |
| 02:31.34 | raster | and presenting them as editable |
| 02:31.36 | raster | etc. |
| 02:31.36 | holycow | all we need to do is protect the retards from the cluebies |
| 02:31.58 | holycow | raster: kde4 probably already has the architecture for that sort of thing |
| 02:32.14 | holycow | okay i'm pitching kde4 hard only because i spend so much time in gnome land :) |
| 02:32.15 | holycow | lol |
| 02:32.20 | holycow | its just a thought anywat |
| 02:32.34 | holycow | but the problem of phone vs. desktop confustion is one of intent |
| 02:32.35 | Slaxxer | ttp://www.i-glassesstore.com/ig-hrvpro.html |
| 02:32.47 | holycow | buidling an app that protects the user from running a desktop app would do the trick |
| 02:32.48 | holycow | and |
| 02:33.14 | holycow | it would still give power users the power to do it and turn off the warning/permission buy sudo apt-get remove annoyingpermissionapp |
| 02:33.15 | raster | you split them |
| 02:33.20 | holycow | right |
| 02:33.21 | raster | into desktop and phone variants |
| 02:33.29 | raster | in desktop mode u can run anything |
| 02:33.32 | holycow | right |
| 02:33.34 | raster | in phone mode - desktop apps are hidden |
| 02:33.39 | holycow | right |
| 02:33.41 | holycow | even better |
| 02:33.46 | raster | not hard to do |
| 02:33.49 | raster | very easy |
| 02:33.50 | holycow | unless you are a hacker in which case you turn it off and go |
| 02:33.53 | holycow | yes |
| 02:33.57 | holycow | can be done in some simple python |
| 02:34.31 | holycow | and i wouldn't discount the gaming capabilities of this |
| 02:34.33 | holycow | i mean |
| 02:34.39 | holycow | lets think europeans |
| 02:34.46 | holycow | they travel a lot on mass transit |
| 02:34.53 | holycow | they sit there with their itunes or whatvnot |
| 02:35.02 | holycow | if they could have games on their portable desktop |
| 02:35.10 | holycow | that could be very interesting |
| 02:35.11 | raster | if it runs in a window |
| 02:35.12 | raster | it works |
| 02:35.17 | holycow | yup |
| 02:35.20 | raster | the rest is just icing |
| 02:35.27 | *** part/#openmoko rawtatoor (n=rawtatoo@c-67-163-214-238.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 02:35.30 | raster | and the late on which its served |
| 02:35.38 | holycow | and because of the usb ports its trivial to add a frame around the phone to add joystick capability |
| 02:35.42 | holycow | like the psp |
| 02:35.49 | holycow | which is nothing but a wrapper around an lcd |
| 02:36.00 | holycow | and if you have a STORE TO BUY GOOD GAMES FROM |
| 02:36.03 | holycow | thats even better |
| 02:36.20 | holycow | i love open source but gaming has no incentive worthy to make it good enough to compete |
| 02:36.45 | holycow | so by letting open source devs been them selves and allowing people to PURCHASE CONVENIENCE |
| 02:36.54 | holycow | we can fund the device indefinately |
| 02:37.03 | holycow | th eopen source guys will bitch about the store |
| 02:37.04 | raster | yes |
| 02:37.15 | raster | as most of a game is its ip in storey, gameplay and artowrk and music |
| 02:37.15 | holycow | but the store is just a regular user willing trading away their freedom for convenience |
| 02:37.23 | raster | and thsoe are thngis an open osurce model does not work with |
| 02:37.24 | holycow | yup |
| 02:37.27 | holycow | nope |
| 02:37.39 | holycow | and i'm a zealot |
| 02:37.40 | holycow | lol |
| 02:37.46 | holycow | truth hurts but thats a fact |
| 02:37.54 | raster | and yes - get downloadable apps |
| 02:38.00 | raster | ge they tricketys, games or whatevre |
| 02:38.01 | raster | for $0 |
| 02:38.05 | holycow | yup |
| 02:38.08 | raster | or for any price the person wats to sell them at |
| 02:38.14 | raster | simply provide a usable front-end |
| 02:38.14 | holycow | yup |
| 02:38.21 | raster | even better |
| 02:38.23 | holycow | i will add one little insight in terms of my research |
| 02:38.23 | *** join/#openmoko wipf (n=wipf@proxy-gw.uib.no) |
| 02:38.28 | holycow | this is important i think |
| 02:38.32 | raster | set up a deal with the telco |
| 02:38.34 | holycow | apple and nintendo understand one thing: |
| 02:38.38 | holycow | you haveto control the user experience |
| 02:38.39 | raster | u either offer a credit card # |
| 02:38.40 | holycow | that means |
| 02:38.46 | holycow | you haveto control the distrigution channel |
| 02:38.49 | raster | or... telco gets to put your purchases on your bill |
| 02:38.52 | holycow | which means you haveto control the quality of software |
| 02:38.54 | raster | telco gets a cut |
| 02:39.00 | raster | telcos will be most happy to do that |
| 02:39.00 | raster | :) |
| 02:39.19 | holycow | now i'm not sure if one can actually do this on this device, but iphone and nintenod prove taht you can't let just any bullshit software in the store |
| 02:39.46 | holycow | the shareware half assed crap actually is a detriment |
| 02:39.52 | holycow | its something known as the paradox of choice |
| 02:40.09 | holycow | the more choice you have the less you have ... i'd haveto dig up some info on it but you can google it if you never heard of it |
| 02:40.11 | raster | you shouldnt disallow it |
| 02:40.18 | raster | just it requires manual effort |
| 02:40.23 | *** join/#openmoko khaije1 (i=d863b241@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a0cfdf82b6bd9486) |
| 02:40.30 | raster | the streamlines "1 click to buy and download" would be quality assured |
| 02:40.35 | holycow | i guess there are many ways to slice a cat so even that can be handled |
| 02:40.38 | *** join/#openmoko jserv-- (n=jserv@118-169-98-222.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 02:40.44 | holycow | maybe we can do something like top tier product which is easy to get |
| 02:40.58 | holycow | and all the shit goes into some other category that is harder to naviagate to |
| 02:40.59 | holycow | and |
| 02:41.08 | raster | all possible |
| 02:41.13 | holycow | we incentivise directly the devs to do a better job to get out of the shit box |
| 02:41.23 | holycow | something like that yeah |
| 02:41.24 | raster | tho right now - far from the problem space |
| 02:41.24 | Arg0naut | good products go at the front of the store;) |
| 02:41.34 | holycow | VERY far |
| 02:41.38 | holycow | Arg0naut: right exactly |
| 02:41.41 | raster | all moot until you have a working platform |
| 02:41.46 | holycow | lol yes |
| 02:41.51 | raster | that there is just a question of time and software |
| 02:41.55 | holycow | but it does outline possible strategies |
| 02:41.58 | raster | and not to ohard to do |
| 02:42.07 | raster | yes - of course |
| 02:42.12 | raster | but now we go into way too many details |
| 02:42.21 | holycow | yeah okay so |
| 02:42.25 | raster | u have a way to download, browse, preview and pay for apps |
| 02:42.25 | holycow | back to hardware |
| 02:42.29 | holycow | whats next? |
| 02:42.30 | holycow | lol :) |
| 02:42.37 | raster | that by definition means only a certain number fit on yoru screen at a time |
| 02:42.40 | raster | u need to organise |
| 02:42.44 | raster | so u can organsie by quality |
| 02:42.48 | raster | or price |
| 02:42.51 | raster | or popularity |
| 02:42.53 | raster | or... |
| 02:42.56 | raster | pretyt moot |
| 02:42.57 | raster | :) |
| 02:43.00 | holycow | hehe yeah |
| 02:44.00 | holycow | i hope your logging this |
| 02:44.01 | holycow | i'm not :) |
| 02:44.05 | holycow | lol |
| 02:44.08 | Tm_T | I am |
| 02:44.15 | raster | xchat logs everything |
| 02:44.16 | raster | :) |
| 02:44.25 | Tm_T | raster: so does my irssi |
| 02:44.27 | Tm_T | <3 |
| 02:44.31 | holycow | lots of good brainstorming |
| 02:44.36 | holycow | raster: so what do you need next? |
| 02:44.41 | raster | and my xchat logs get rsynced along with config etc. from box to box |
| 02:44.46 | raster | holycow: prototype |
| 02:44.54 | holycow | if you get me a name i can make a website, and a wiki and such |
| 02:44.57 | Tm_T | like to have neat statistics from this channel? |
| 02:44.59 | raster | and entry into financing |
| 02:45.00 | raster | actually |
| 02:45.02 | raster | i need a company |
| 02:45.03 | raster | :) |
| 02:45.08 | raster | already got name |
| 02:45.13 | raster | already got website |
| 02:45.20 | holycow | sweet |
| 02:45.22 | raster | working on company legal setup - at least for now |
| 02:45.28 | raster | working on components |
| 02:45.28 | holycow | oh cool |
| 02:45.32 | Arg0naut | so you just need VC's? |
| 02:45.32 | raster | signing nda's |
| 02:45.36 | mpr | have you decided on the country of incorporation yet?-) |
| 02:45.40 | raster | already lined up prototype production |
| 02:45.46 | holycow | north korea |
| 02:45.49 | holycow | *giggle* |
| 02:45.53 | raster | got dev boards already here and on the way for testring components |
| 02:46.07 | raster | mpr: well for now i was going for offshor tax haven |
| 02:46.07 | raster | :) |
| 02:46.08 | Tm_T | holycow: Finland ofcourse |
| 02:46.13 | holycow | hehe |
| 02:46.22 | mpr | north korea would probably give very special treatment to anyone with raster's tech and language skills :) |
| 02:46.24 | Tm_T | 'tis where Nokia is |
| 02:46.35 | holycow | also |
| 02:46.41 | mpr | raster: which one |
| 02:46.46 | holycow | some of this can probably be financed through govt subsidies if raster is in eu |
| 02:46.49 | raster | seychelles |
| 02:46.54 | holycow | they seem to go for things like this |
| 02:46.58 | holycow | i don't know about us |
| 02:47.00 | raster | i can move to the eu any time |
| 02:47.04 | holycow | canada does help out too |
| 02:47.14 | raster | i'm an eu citizen |
| 02:47.20 | holycow | right on |
| 02:47.44 | raster | but i'm in sydney atm |
| 02:47.50 | raster | i've contemplated singapore actually |
| 02:48.09 | holycow | well realistically you want to be close to production |
| 02:48.14 | raster | the govt will match private funding up to $300k |
| 02:48.21 | holycow | really? |
| 02:48.25 | holycow | that could be a hell of a way to start |
| 02:48.29 | raster | check out singapored edb |
| 02:48.31 | holycow | wow you've done your research |
| 02:48.36 | raster | its a govt run but private investment firm |
| 02:48.41 | raster | their charter is to invest in shit |
| 02:48.48 | raster | (to put it simply) |
| 02:49.01 | raster | so if i can find 300k of privfate money |
| 02:49.05 | holycow | well vietnam just mandated all open source everywhere in govt |
| 02:49.05 | raster | 300k of edb money will come in too |
| 02:49.11 | raster | so you double your money |
| 02:49.14 | holycow | you know that could be one target for your device as well |
| 02:49.15 | raster | of course in return for a stake |
| 02:49.15 | holycow | infact |
| 02:49.23 | raster | singapre actualyl does production |
| 02:49.35 | raster | but tis close to most high-volume production facilities in se asia |
| 02:49.40 | holycow | right |
| 02:49.41 | raster | its possibly one of the better places |
| 02:49.46 | raster | sg, hk, tw |
| 02:49.54 | raster | also sg is englishspeaking |
| 02:49.58 | raster | modern and civilised |
| 02:50.01 | holycow | the point above was that vietnam could even potentially be a targe market too |
| 02:50.13 | raster | so you make no sacrifices going there |
| 02:50.21 | holycow | neat, didn't know that |
| 02:50.24 | raster | beyond the "well laws are a bit picky about littering and drugs" |
| 02:50.30 | raster | and its hot and humid 365 days a year |
| 02:50.30 | mpr | I can probably promise at least $20k-$40k to raster's startup no questions asked :P |
| 02:50.32 | *** join/#openmoko weihsiu (n=walter@61-219-17-40.HINET-IP.hinet.net) |
| 02:50.48 | holycow | lol |
| 02:50.56 | raster | mpr: i've earmarked about 120k of my own for it |
| 02:51.00 | mpr | and maybe try to find more financing from finland if they're allowed to ask questions :) |
| 02:51.30 | raster | i intend to not allow vultrue-capital to destroy it |
| 02:51.44 | raster | as it has so many other startups |
| 02:51.45 | rooly | sighs |
| 02:51.46 | holycow | yeah you haveto be carefull |
| 02:51.46 | rooly | i gave in |
| 02:51.47 | khaije1 | what is sg? |
| 02:51.49 | rooly | i got a new phone |
| 02:51.54 | raster | khaije1: singapore |
| 02:52.01 | khaije1 | ah ok |
| 02:52.03 | holycow | they always take controlling stake and then fuck up the startup |
| 02:52.05 | raster | holycow: i am about as careful as they come |
| 02:52.08 | holycow | heh, that rhymes |
| 02:52.11 | raster | i have done a lot of research |
| 02:52.25 | raster | business side, the funding, legal bits, location, the tech, etc. etc. |
| 02:52.35 | raster | thats why i'm willing to pony up a fair bit of $ for it |
| 02:52.40 | raster | i've done my due diligence |
| 02:52.41 | Slaxxer | rooly? |
| 02:52.43 | rooly | will you ever forgive me, raster? |
| 02:52.51 | rooly | you too, Slaxxer |
| 02:52.54 | rooly | i'm sorry |
| 02:52.55 | Slaxxer | htc? |
| 02:52.55 | raster | rooly: which one? |
| 02:53.02 | rooly | a crappy nokia 'go' phhone |
| 02:53.07 | raster | hahaha |
| 02:53.08 | raster | cheapo |
| 02:53.13 | rooly | yeah |
| 02:53.14 | raster | nothng to forgive |
| 02:53.15 | rooly | 15$ |
| 02:53.16 | raster | get what works for you |
| 02:53.19 | raster | always |
| 02:53.25 | raster | the customer is the most important bit |
| 02:53.29 | raster | its YOUR money |
| 02:53.41 | holycow | does everyone need x on their phone? |
| 02:53.43 | holycow | hehe :) |
| 02:53.48 | rooly | mostly, i got it because i upgraded to qt4.3.3 |
| 02:53.49 | Slaxxer | 50 cents a minuit |
| 02:53.50 | raster | holycow: hell yeah! |
| 02:53.50 | raster | :) |
| 02:53.52 | rooly | and...well... |
| 02:53.56 | rooly | i stopped being able to dial |
| 02:54.08 | rooly | raster: please, tell everyone you know: do NOT upgrade to 4.3.3 |
| 02:54.21 | Slaxxer | reflashing would have been much cheaper |
| 02:54.22 | Arg0naut | holycow: http://tinyurl.com/9bfxxd canada's business grants and loans |
| 02:54.33 | rooly | Slaxxer: possibly, but now i have 2 sim cards |
| 02:54.38 | holycow | Arg0naut: huh |
| 02:54.40 | holycow | wow neat! |
| 02:54.42 | holycow | thx dude :) |
| 02:54.50 | Arg0naut | np |
| 02:54.57 | kd8ikt | in zhone gps whats P/H/V-DOP ? mine says 2.08/1.2/3.03 |
| 02:55.53 | holycow | heh great site! |
| 02:57.17 | holycow | raster the other thing you got going for you is all the other companies doing research for you |
| 02:57.34 | holycow | iphone, blackberry, the new pal and moko all are approaching these sorts of problems from a different angle |
| 02:57.38 | holycow | some got closer than others |
| 02:57.47 | holycow | you get a chance to take that knowledge to the bank as well |
| 02:58.17 | raster | rooly: umm ok :) |
| 02:58.41 | raster | yup |
| 02:58.44 | raster | bingo |
| 02:58.51 | raster | also - i'm using parts that already have drivers |
| 02:59.05 | raster | the only part that doesnt.. is the touchscreen |
| 02:59.07 | holycow | raster: if i could add one more point |
| 02:59.09 | raster | but thats fairly simple |
| 02:59.17 | raster | everything else already has linux drivers complete or mostly done |
| 02:59.19 | holycow | depending on how you work things out |
| 02:59.34 | raster | that means the base is already working and "stable" :) |
| 02:59.42 | holycow | the one thing i appreciated steve jobs for is his understanding that aesthetics matter a lot more than people want to admit |
| 02:59.53 | raster | i know |
| 02:59.53 | holycow | i'm an i.t. guy and i can live with ugly things |
| 03:00.04 | raster | do *I* look like someone who doesnt care abotu aesthetics? |
| 03:00.05 | raster | :) |
| 03:00.07 | holycow | but even my eye kinda gives more credence to a device that looks better |
| 03:00.22 | holycow | haha well your on irc in monotype |
| 03:00.25 | holycow | hard to tell :) |
| 03:00.33 | raster | holycow: www.enlightenment.org |
| 03:00.38 | raster | need i say more |
| 03:00.40 | holycow | oh wait fuck |
| 03:00.44 | holycow | you are THAT raster? |
| 03:00.46 | Arg0naut | raster = steve jobs - douchiness |
| 03:00.46 | raster | yes |
| 03:00.58 | raster | that raster |
| 03:01.03 | holycow | raster: hahaha dude i love e |
| 03:01.04 | holycow | seriously |
| 03:01.11 | holycow | now i understand your e comments |
| 03:01.14 | raster | hehehehe |
| 03:01.23 | raster | so.. as i was saying |
| 03:01.25 | holycow | undesrtand my kde4 comments from the perspective of 'application framework' |
| 03:01.29 | raster | dont worry about the aesthetics |
| 03:01.30 | raster | :) |
| 03:01.36 | raster | and i understand them |
| 03:01.37 | raster | :) |
| 03:01.43 | holycow | and 'needing my corporate clients to eventually have framework level acls and plicies built in' |
| 03:01.44 | raster | not unfamiliar with it all |
| 03:01.45 | raster | :) |
| 03:01.56 | holycow | gnome doesn't even come close ... i don't know where e fits in there |
| 03:01.56 | raster | i've done corproate |
| 03:02.05 | raster | worked at morgan stanley for a while |
| 03:02.08 | holycow | yeah well if you are that raster then fuckit |
| 03:02.18 | holycow | the device will look splendiferous |
| 03:02.19 | raster | i've done medium |
| 03:02.19 | holycow | :) |
| 03:02.20 | raster | done small |
| 03:02.28 | holycow | Arg0naut: i gotta agree with you |
| 03:02.31 | raster | it wont be too bad i hope |
| 03:02.50 | holycow | Arg0naut: douchy to the core, but you gotta admit he cant draw but he understood th eimportants of logotype oh so very early on |
| 03:02.53 | raster | cases are hard to make themable |
| 03:03.02 | raster | but - i had some ideas |
| 03:03.10 | holycow | that might be going too far |
| 03:03.18 | raster | first would be to provide all the case modelling in a way easy to work with |
| 03:03.28 | holycow | i don't know i mean i think the idea is a combination of elegenace and consistency |
| 03:03.29 | raster | i intend to do a prortotype case and i'm using blender |
| 03:03.34 | holycow | i know your device will do everything |
| 03:03.36 | raster | that makes it easy to say ":here - have my .blend file' |
| 03:03.37 | Arg0naut | holycow: most definetly, he recognized for most users the UI is the program |
| 03:03.49 | holycow | so whatever it looks like it should always look like an 'e' device or whatever |
| 03:03.52 | raster | shapeways.. in fact support and encoruage blender use for sending them their files |
| 03:03.56 | raster | blender has an exporter |
| 03:03.59 | holycow | Arg0naut: i totally agree with you |
| 03:04.03 | raster | so.. let people take it and make their own cases |
| 03:04.06 | raster | send them to shapeways to print |
| 03:04.11 | raster | why not? |
| 03:04.14 | *** part/#openmoko Alinermedia (n=jaranda@201.143.102.22.dsl.dyn.telnor.net) |
| 03:04.17 | holycow | yeah why not |
| 03:04.20 | holycow | good point |
| 03:04.23 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04_ (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-95-85.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net) |
| 03:04.27 | holycow | i mean i can see my slef doing something like that in blender |
| 03:04.32 | raster | of ocurs it will come with a default |
| 03:04.33 | holycow | with a dragon theme kinda snaking around |
| 03:04.45 | holycow | you could totally do some amazing things |
| 03:04.53 | raster | actually blender is a pita |
| 03:04.55 | holycow | plus ... what is that sites name ... |
| 03:04.57 | raster | but i'll figure it out |
| 03:04.58 | raster | :) |
| 03:05.09 | holycow | the one with the custom cases ... oh minitx.whatever |
| 03:05.24 | holycow | the thing about that site is that its a GREAT way to market minitix |
| 03:05.37 | holycow | a lot of people bought minitx just because they saw cases and wanted to do their own |
| 03:05.48 | holycow | you are right you could do something along those lines as well |
| 03:05.52 | Arg0naut | blenders not to bad, it's just learning those keyboard shortcuts |
| 03:06.00 | holycow | i like blender |
| 03:06.04 | holycow | but then i like gimp |
| 03:06.06 | holycow | :) |
| 03:06.31 | rooly | now likes e |
| 03:06.35 | holycow | raster: i ran e17 for a while, brillian piece of work |
| 03:06.37 | Arg0naut | i learnt 3dmax first, so when it comes to 2d modelling i;m a gui junky |
| 03:06.44 | Arg0naut | *3d |
| 03:06.48 | holycow | Arg0naut: me too |
| 03:06.50 | holycow | heh |
| 03:06.57 | rooly | in principle |
| 03:07.15 | rooly | when comes e1.0? |
| 03:08.00 | raster | holycow: thats just another angle for the same thing |
| 03:08.17 | holycow | i think his uber phone comes first :) |
| 03:08.17 | holycow | hehehe |
| 03:08.17 | raster | do stuff in a way where you do not rule out any market if u can |
| 03:08.20 | raster | increase your exposure |
| 03:08.22 | holycow | raster, the great thing about a device like yours would be that if i want |
| 03:08.23 | raster | its a niche market anyway |
| 03:08.27 | raster | so attack multilpe niches |
| 03:08.28 | holycow | i can actually run kde4 when its ready |
| 03:08.30 | holycow | or gnome for now |
| 03:08.34 | raster | yup |
| 03:08.36 | holycow | or keep e that comes with it |
| 03:08.38 | raster | its fast enouhg to anyway |
| 03:08.43 | holycow | ti really won't matter |
| 03:08.46 | raster | chances are u'll have full gnome or kde packages for it |
| 03:08.51 | holycow | so yeah i dont care |
| 03:08.52 | holycow | and |
| 03:08.53 | raster | inf act already in oe... |
| 03:08.55 | raster | so its moot |
| 03:08.58 | raster | :) |
| 03:09.05 | holycow | there is no reason for you not to use any profits you start making to fund e dev as well |
| 03:09.07 | raster | at that point i'm agnostic |
| 03:09.10 | raster | the os is on sd card |
| 03:09.16 | holycow | who knows maybe you have a few tricks up yoru sleeve no one knows about yhet |
| 03:09.25 | raster | peolpe will provide lots of sdcard tarball downloads to throw onto your sd to have your own custom os |
| 03:10.03 | rooly | i think it would be easier to just have a tarball itself be the OS |
| 03:10.06 | holycow | heh i was just thinking what i ran e on |
| 03:10.24 | holycow | i had to bring back some old p300 laptops for a while a few years back to get another year out of them |
| 03:10.34 | holycow | e was the only thing fast enought that would run on them |
| 03:10.55 | holycow | raster: totally |
| 03:10.56 | rooly | is gonna go activate his new sim card |
| 03:11.33 | holycow | raster: when you are ready lets talk about seeing if we can tie in some business end of things |
| 03:11.38 | holycow | i'm just small fry |
| 03:11.52 | holycow | but i'd like to offer a device like that in exactly the use case described above |
| 03:12.01 | holycow | i can see bundling it in a lot of way |
| 03:12.05 | holycow | actually here is another angle for you |
| 03:12.12 | holycow | i can see giving away the phone |
| 03:12.19 | holycow | for a monthly service agreement |
| 03:12.34 | holycow | that pays off the device and provides a service company with ongoing revenue |
| 03:12.46 | holycow | we ding full price if they drop it |
| 03:13.07 | holycow | raster: okay i'm convinced |
| 03:13.26 | holycow | there are enough ways to slice this thing up into various business models to actually make it viable |
| 03:13.31 | holycow | to make it big is a whole other thing |
| 03:13.42 | raster | rooly: well i was meaning a tarball of the os |
| 03:13.44 | raster | ie |
| 03:13.46 | holycow | but i'm convinced you have something pretty dead on target her |
| 03:13.54 | raster | tar zcvf my-os.tgz / |
| 03:14.05 | raster | (wel u'd also need a kernel image too) |
| 03:14.37 | raster | holycow: on tyhe business side - i'm open to many thnigs |
| 03:14.48 | raster | basically the goal is to up the # of untis that can be shipped |
| 03:14.54 | raster | that in turn can open the way to lower prices |
| 03:15.05 | raster | and of coruse - more investment |
| 03:15.20 | holycow | allright man |
| 03:15.23 | raster | the problem with givign away is |
| 03:15.25 | holycow | i'm a fn already |
| 03:15.26 | raster | u have to FINANCE that |
| 03:15.32 | raster | and thats tough as a small company |
| 03:15.36 | raster | u need to sell |
| 03:15.39 | raster | and get back your money asap |
| 03:15.56 | raster | only telcos and big companies have the clout to get good financing terms for that |
| 03:15.57 | holycow | on $400 devices its doable |
| 03:16.07 | holycow | as part of a service agreement you can get it back in 4 months |
| 03:16.14 | raster | no sell 10,000 of them |
| 03:16.23 | raster | find 4mil to "give away devices" |
| 03:16.24 | raster | :) |
| 03:16.27 | holycow | well that but there are companies that financy small business expenditures |
| 03:16.37 | raster | sure |
| 03:16.37 | rooly | yeah |
| 03:16.40 | holycow | they don't do $400 a pop but i know a few guys in that business |
| 03:16.43 | rooly | VC's |
| 03:16.43 | raster | in todays world thats tough |
| 03:16.45 | holycow | it might open up a new avenue |
| 03:16.56 | holycow | and they wouldn't be financing me they would be financing the client indirectly |
| 03:17.03 | raster | in the end - thats what the front end business do |
| 03:17.08 | holycow | raster: you might be right |
| 03:17.08 | raster | ie YOU guy 100 of them |
| 03:17.12 | raster | YOU find the financing |
| 03:17.17 | holycow | i haven't actually tried it or anything |
| 03:17.19 | raster | YOU give them for $0 to clients with a support deal |
| 03:17.23 | raster | YOU get the rewards |
| 03:17.24 | raster | :) |
| 03:17.33 | raster | but you also take the financin burden/risk |
| 03:17.43 | raster | there is a problem with a company trying to do too much at once |
| 03:17.45 | raster | as a startup |
| 03:17.48 | raster | you MUSt FOCUS |
| 03:17.50 | holycow | i think there are a few ways to balance the risk there as well |
| 03:17.51 | holycow | i mean |
| 03:17.56 | raster | FOCUS on your 1 shot to make it |
| 03:17.58 | raster | the one product |
| 03:17.58 | holycow | i fyou can have them paid off in 6 months |
| 03:18.19 | holycow | after that its only service expense, its like a mortgage |
| 03:18.21 | raster | side-business, vertical markets and funky "pay it later" deals are goign to distract :( |
| 03:18.39 | holycow | all you are doing for the client is deferring payment at a lower up front cost but bigger back end cost |
| 03:18.51 | holycow | not saying you should do it :) |
| 03:18.52 | raster | sure |
| 03:18.56 | raster | and then clients who stop paying |
| 03:19.00 | raster | you eed to find debt collectors |
| 03:19.04 | raster | chase them up for money |
| 03:19.08 | holycow | well i agree with you, you always want clients to pay up front |
| 03:19.15 | raster | and now u are into legal terriotry hiring lawyers |
| 03:19.16 | raster | etc. |
| 03:19.16 | holycow | but the whole cel phone business is exactly what we are talking about |
| 03:19.22 | raster | yup |
| 03:19.23 | holycow | the service contract pays for the phone |
| 03:19.23 | raster | i know |
| 03:19.29 | raster | at least for now the teclso can do that |
| 03:19.32 | raster | in fact |
| 03:19.35 | raster | they are more than happy to |
| 03:19.39 | raster | they aklready have the infra |
| 03:19.43 | raster | the shops |
| 03:19.44 | holycow | all those guys are doing is therefore is borrowing vast sums of money to generate market penetration using this sort of scam |
| 03:19.46 | raster | the financing |
| 03:19.47 | holycow | i agree with you |
| 03:19.48 | raster | the legal depts |
| 03:20.05 | raster | and the service they can cut off on non-payment as a way of kicking you in the bum |
| 03:20.18 | raster | maybe later |
| 03:20.24 | holycow | well those are real risks |
| 03:20.26 | holycow | on the other end |
| 03:20.29 | raster | but i'm not into the "totally sell to the telco only" |
| 03:20.36 | raster | there will be people who dont want it locked |
| 03:20.43 | holycow | the risk of NOT doing that is yoru competitor doing it and taking all marketshare before you do |
| 03:20.49 | raster | though as such - why lock it other than for exclusivity |
| 03:20.54 | raster | if u have a contract - u have one |
| 03:20.54 | holycow | so its the just a larger margin bet |
| 03:21.04 | raster | then again telco cant cut off service to force u to pay |
| 03:21.09 | raster | as u can just get another telco/sim card |
| 03:21.11 | raster | anyway |
| 03:21.22 | raster | and yes |
| 03:21.25 | raster | its a bet |
| 03:21.35 | raster | but for a first product - i'd want to go for the "Sell it" way |
| 03:21.38 | holycow | my usecase was giving the phone away to small businesses and financing it as part of an ongoing service contract |
| 03:21.57 | holycow | they couldnt' exactly afford us to cut off their service contract as all their data is on our hardware |
| 03:22.05 | raster | holycow: l this is where peolpe like you come in |
| 03:22.07 | *** join/#openmoko catzilla (n=catzilla@unaffiliated/catzilla) |
| 03:22.09 | raster | you alreayd know the businesses |
| 03:22.23 | raster | you already do the due-diligence to see if the business WILL fulfil its contract obligations |
| 03:22.29 | raster | and you do the legal |
| 03:22.32 | gurugentoo | any tricks to getting fennec usable or is it not there yet? |
| 03:22.34 | raster | if you do it |
| 03:22.37 | raster | the profits are yours |
| 03:22.57 | holycow | oh yes totally |
| 03:23.04 | holycow | it wouldnt be financed by you :) |
| 03:23.11 | raster | i'm happy to have you make your $ |
| 03:23.15 | *** part/#openmoko catzilla (n=catzilla@unaffiliated/catzilla) |
| 03:23.22 | holycow | it could be an angle you work with your downline to establish |
| 03:23.27 | raster | i'm in this to finally have the phone i always wanted |
| 03:23.28 | Arg0naut | essentially having secondary sellers |
| 03:23.33 | *** join/#openmoko pcfe` (n=pcfe@a83-245-163-202.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 03:23.41 | raster | and that i know for sure a mountain of nerds want too |
| 03:23.45 | holycow | on the other hand if you find the business practice a bad one you may want to stiuplate that no such thing can ever happen with your devices |
| 03:23.52 | raster | in fact just NOT being iphone |
| 03:23.55 | raster | NOT being palm |
| 03:23.59 | raster | NOt being a bb is a selling point |
| 03:24.04 | holycow | Arg0naut: correct |
| 03:24.09 | holycow | well the idea would always be |
| 03:24.12 | holycow | i buy from raster |
| 03:24.13 | raster | being a small player with a small # of untis out there makes you "unique" |
| 03:24.18 | holycow | i do what the hell i want in terms of marketing |
| 03:24.19 | raster | your the onlyu guy at the pub with that phone |
| 03:24.29 | raster | you dont blend into the sheep |
| 03:24.29 | Arg0naut | raster: make it the MyPhone? |
| 03:24.31 | raster | you stand out |
| 03:24.36 | holycow | however raster may want some inclusive part of that in exchange for a lower buy in for me |
| 03:24.38 | raster | and peolpe will want it JUST for that |
| 03:24.44 | holycow | Arg0naut: lol, i actually like that |
| 03:25.04 | raster | holycow: well generally it's be a volume discount |
| 03:25.24 | raster | buy 1 phone - $X, buy10, $1 -5%, buy 100 $X-15%, by 1000 $X-30% |
| 03:25.25 | raster | etc. |
| 03:25.30 | holycow | raster: all i can say right now is that moko comes close |
| 03:25.39 | holycow | i'm in this channel watching the project very intensly |
| 03:25.41 | raster | so u get a lower price in retunr for buying more of them |
| 03:25.43 | raster | :) |
| 03:25.57 | raster | its on the way there |
| 03:25.58 | holycow | but i can't buy yet for the ocmpany because its not quite what you and i described ... or rather you described with me cheering on |
| 03:26.03 | rooly | the moko IS that phone for me... |
| 03:26.07 | holycow | if you bring the product i'm very interested |
| 03:26.10 | raster | but i believe it likely wont delievr what at least i want |
| 03:26.12 | rooly | nobody else in my world has one |
| 03:26.18 | rooly | and only 3 other people know they exist |
| 03:26.40 | raster | ahhaha |
| 03:26.47 | holycow | heh |
| 03:26.52 | holycow | well i love the moko name |
| 03:27.00 | holycow | there is so much you can do with the name |
| 03:27.55 | holycow | from a marketing perspective i could have a ball with it |
| 03:28.09 | holycow | my contention with the model names of the mokos is that they are not catchy in any way |
| 03:28.16 | holycow | freerunner just doesn't strike me at all |
| 03:28.28 | holycow | with moko i can do |
| 03:28.33 | holycow | 'free your iner moko' |
| 03:28.36 | raster | too long |
| 03:28.45 | raster | (freerunner) |
| 03:28.48 | raster | cool |
| 03:28.49 | holycow | moko for life |
| 03:28.52 | holycow | moko monkey |
| 03:28.55 | holycow | mr.moko |
| 03:28.58 | holycow | i mean on and on |
| 03:29.05 | holycow | its just catchy, round, and friendly |
| 03:29.05 | raster | i was just going to call it the "i" |
| 03:29.11 | holycow | i could do advertising for moko indefinately |
| 03:29.12 | mwester | I dunno. "Brokenmoko" has a nice ring to it. |
| 03:29.19 | cb22 | why not call it the 'j' :p |
| 03:29.20 | holycow | hehehe |
| 03:29.23 | rooly | raster: call it e-on-f |
| 03:29.28 | Slaxxer | holymoko batman |
| 03:29.31 | raster | (first gen being the.. i1) |
| 03:29.36 | holycow | Slaxxer: *sniker* |
| 03:29.42 | raster | i - got it! |
| 03:29.43 | rooly | or better yet |
| 03:29.49 | rooly | raster, call it the eon |
| 03:29.52 | raster | i - got milk |
| 03:29.52 | holycow | i - lost it! |
| 03:29.53 | rooly | cause its got e on it |
| 03:29.57 | holycow | its not bad |
| 03:29.59 | raster | actually |
| 03:30.02 | raster | eon sounds good |
| 03:30.03 | holycow | can you copyright i? |
| 03:30.05 | Arg0naut | to me the freerunner name could have good advertisements |
| 03:30.11 | holycow | you can have advertising that goes like this |
| 03:30.14 | holycow | i? |
| 03:30.14 | raster | holycow: u can trademark it |
| 03:30.16 | holycow | next ad |
| 03:30.20 | raster | but only within limited contexts |
| 03:30.22 | holycow | i! with a picture of the device |
| 03:30.31 | holycow | okay i can see it |
| 03:30.41 | holycow | people will say you are confusing it with iphone tho |
| 03:30.41 | raster | kind of plays on the "me" or "mii" etc. idea |
| 03:30.47 | raster | "i" |
| 03:30.48 | holycow | apple kinda has the i thing going on |
| 03:30.53 | raster | true |
| 03:30.57 | rooly | meh |
| 03:30.57 | raster | maybe eon is good |
| 03:30.58 | rooly | not really |
| 03:31.05 | holycow | ion? |
| 03:31.10 | raster | invokes a feeling of a long period of time |
| 03:31.13 | cb22 | its a window manager |
| 03:31.23 | rooly | hence how its so clever |
| 03:31.25 | holycow | moko is just brilliant |
| 03:31.26 | rooly | cause its got e on it |
| 03:31.28 | raster | eon works with the e scheme |
| 03:31.29 | raster | :) |
| 03:31.33 | holycow | it kinda has to evoke that sound and feeling |
| 03:31.34 | Slaxxer | oooo me love u long time |
| 03:31.40 | *** join/#openmoko loca|host (n=tux@41.226.222.212) |
| 03:31.54 | Slaxxer | pretty soon the plastic will be done |
| 03:32.33 | rooly | honestly, i love items with clever names |
| 03:32.45 | raster | i like eon |
| 03:32.46 | raster | hmm |
| 03:32.49 | raster | its short |
| 03:32.57 | raster | easy to make into a logo |
| 03:32.59 | rooly | and you can play off it really well |
| 03:33.18 | raster | enlightenment was a gcool name |
| 03:33.20 | holycow | play with it you have time |
| 03:33.22 | raster | goo dmarketing |
| 03:33.23 | rooly | oooo, i know, eon, with an arrow trailing to the right off the bottom of the e |
| 03:33.28 | raster | as it invoked feelings |
| 03:33.29 | rooly | underlining the on |
| 03:33.34 | raster | unlike twm, fvwm, mwm etc. |
| 03:33.39 | raster | but its toolong |
| 03:33.45 | raster | i've learnt that bit of marketing |
| 03:33.51 | raster | chose short catchy names that invoke a feeling |
| 03:33.56 | holycow | i'm terrible at naming things |
| 03:34.03 | holycow | kde is finally getting the naming things right |
| 03:34.05 | rooly | need a name? ask a rooly |
| 03:34.13 | holycow | with plasm and plasmoids and such |
| 03:34.14 | cb22 | KHolyKow |
| 03:34.17 | rooly | lol |
| 03:34.18 | holycow | lol |
| 03:34.25 | raster | rooly: maybe |
| 03:34.31 | holycow | my other fav app is alacarte |
| 03:34.33 | holycow | gnomes menu editor |
| 03:34.39 | rooly | no but really, its on of the things i'm really good at |
| 03:34.44 | holycow | ir emembe when were were trying to pick names with the author |
| 03:34.54 | holycow | alacarte was just perfect for that app |
| 03:35.23 | holycow | raster: if anything its more important to be consistent |
| 03:35.34 | holycow | and reinforce the positive aspects of the brand over and over |
| 03:35.39 | holycow | apple isn't apple because of the name |
| 03:35.50 | holycow | they are apple because they took something ordinary and framed it properly |
| 03:35.58 | holycow | so frankly, you can probably go with eon |
| 03:36.07 | holycow | you just haveto have the right people to finesse the brand |
| 03:36.32 | holycow | it won't become eon without significant spending enayway, until then it will just be another brand |
| 03:36.42 | holycow | so spend enormous efforst on it probably isn't necdssary |
| 03:37.01 | raster | i know |
| 03:37.03 | holycow | afterall, steve nobs picked apple after no one at the company could choose a good name anyway |
| 03:37.07 | holycow | just some thoughts |
| 03:37.12 | raster | but good to start with something good |
| 03:37.26 | raster | calling it butthair |
| 03:37.26 | rooly | good name, easy to recognize logo |
| 03:37.31 | raster | no matter how much finesse |
| 03:37.34 | raster | you're screwed |
| 03:37.56 | holycow | eon to evokes an image of ion engine on a space craft gliding near the speed of light through space |
| 03:37.58 | holycow | i like it |
| 03:37.59 | cb22 | don't be so anal about things |
| 03:38.09 | holycow | i think it is in the 'good enough'category at least |
| 03:38.12 | rooly | propositions raster on a possible logo idea |
| 03:38.17 | holycow | what cb22 said yeah |
| 03:38.22 | Arg0naut | raster: butthair says unqiue, yet affordable |
| 03:38.28 | holycow | hehehehe |
| 03:38.33 | holycow | Arg0naut: rofl |
| 03:38.47 | cb22 | holycow, my anal remark was @ butthair |
| 03:38.48 | holycow | Arg0naut: i have toyed with the idea of comming out with a real product called 'smells like ass' |
| 03:38.52 | holycow | hehehe |
| 03:38.54 | cb22 | a rather terrible pun :( |
| 03:38.56 | rooly | okay, imagine this: eon, where the e uses the basic e logo, but the bottom of the e trails off 'forward', underlining the on |
| 03:39.04 | holycow | cb22 oh hehe, works either way |
| 03:39.37 | rooly | and people who understand it go 'hmph, thats clever' |
| 03:39.58 | rooly | and everyone else says, "wow, what a great logo" |
| 03:39.58 | holycow | that could work |
| 03:39.58 | holycow | lots of ideas to be had |
| 03:39.59 | holycow | i would focus on font work my self |
| 03:40.07 | holycow | getting the font right and 'balanced' is probably the hardest thing |
| 03:40.36 | khaije1 | didn't there used to be a website that demo'd the illume concept? is that still around? |
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| 03:42.23 | khaije1 | oh and i know it's probably pointless to ask stuff like this but is there any indication that OM realizes they'll need a hw refresh before any mainstream market push? |
| 03:43.13 | rooly | yes, they are quite aware |
| 03:43.29 | mpr | they're working on gta03 but from what I understand it still won't have 3g, just edge |
| 03:43.56 | khaije1 | it seems like the huge amount of work that went into the freerunner should translate well to a new updated device |
| 03:44.00 | holycow | the mailing lists remind them every day |
| 03:44.05 | khaije1 | heheh |
| 03:44.35 | rooly | still wishes people would understand how pointless 3g is |
| 03:44.41 | khaije1 | ya i read SPM's email to the list but he is a little too poetic for my tastes most times |
| 03:44.56 | mpr | rooly: do explain |
| 03:45.00 | rooly | its dialup |
| 03:45.07 | holycow | lol |
| 03:45.10 | holycow | i had 3g in eu |
| 03:45.15 | holycow | for surfing the web |
| 03:45.35 | holycow | its not all bad but yeah twice as fast as dialup |
| 03:45.35 | mpr | I don't see it pointless at all, w/ gta02 you can't have any connection at all if you go to e.g. japan with it |
| 03:45.38 | rooly | its dialup with more bandwidth |
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| 03:46.06 | mpr | and w/ hspa the latencies aren't dialup-level anymore |
| 03:46.14 | cb22 | yeah, a few hundred times more bandwidth |
| 03:46.19 | holycow | i would say its pointless if you are always in the office hooked up |
| 03:46.35 | holycow | i could see it being usefull in teh field to look up phone numbers, browse a map |
| 03:46.47 | holycow | access vpn and take inventory in an office via an ir plugged into the usb port |
| 03:46.48 | rooly | i'd say its on par to maybe slow dsl |
| 03:46.54 | holycow | *hint* *hint* raster |
| 03:46.56 | holycow | :) |
| 03:47.02 | holycow | rooly: precisely |
| 03:47.05 | khaije1 | with an open device it might be possible to connect to a dedicated 3g provider via wlan or bt though |
| 03:47.10 | khaije1 | that would be sweet |
| 03:47.11 | Arg0naut | the thing is consumers like quantitative, so even if they don't know what 3g is or even use it, they'll buy the phone in the similliar price range with 3g |
| 03:47.12 | holycow | it depends on the usecase |
| 03:47.25 | holycow | 3g is also usefull in areas where it cheaper to bring in a 3g tower than run cable |
| 03:47.33 | khaije1 | (like a device that could fit in a backpack) |
| 03:47.48 | raster | holycow: its improved a lot |
| 03:47.48 | holycow | mediterranean coast is perfect example, they ahve a hell of time running cable through SOLID rock |
| 03:47.55 | raster | u probably had umts |
| 03:48.01 | holycow | hehe :) |
| 03:48.08 | raster | hspa these days is about 10x the speed of umts |
| 03:48.14 | raster | (in good situations) |
| 03:48.20 | raster | but thats what wifi is for |
| 03:48.23 | raster | when u are at the office |
| 03:48.24 | holycow | ah k. that could be true |
| 03:48.27 | raster | or.. a base station with usb |
| 03:48.33 | raster | usb ethernet tongles do the job |
| 03:48.39 | holycow | yup totally |
| 03:48.42 | raster | you have multiple levels of access |
| 03:48.55 | raster | u also have bluetooth available too - it is pssible to route ip over bt |
| 03:48.56 | rooly | i'm getting 1400ms pings with a 3g aircard, and 1200ms pings with my FR running qtopia |
| 03:48.59 | holycow | so raster, timelines when we can start buying? |
| 03:49.00 | holycow | :) |
| 03:49.02 | holycow | hehehe |
| 03:49.45 | raster | dependent on too many things |
| 03:49.50 | mpr | when lte comes the finnish operators will start using that in rural arears and 3g coverage will start beating gsm coverage |
| 03:49.50 | raster | but it'd need to be this year |
| 03:49.52 | holycow | i'm buggin ya |
| 03:50.05 | mpr | in 5 years they'll start taking down gsm coverage |
| 03:50.33 | mpr | so it's not just about having a better data connection |
| 03:50.38 | rooly | is there any way i can upgrade my phone without upgrading dropbear? |
| 03:50.46 | rooly | cause i lose connection and the upgrade just dies |
| 03:50.59 | rooly | and i have to start all over... |
| 03:51.01 | rooly | sighs |
| 03:51.07 | mpr | it's about making a phone that can get *any* connection at all world-wide |
| 03:51.13 | cb22 | rooly, try screen |
| 03:51.16 | Arg0naut | raster: for that 3d printing company what was the price per cm^3? |
| 03:51.16 | cb22 | or tmux |
| 03:51.35 | rooly | opkg upgrade <and then some options> |
| 03:52.20 | raster | Arg0naut: yes |
| 03:52.34 | raster | depends on the plastic used |
| 03:52.39 | raster | but about $2/cm3 |
| 03:52.40 | Arg0naut | ah |
| 03:52.45 | Arg0naut | ty |
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| 03:53.33 | rooly | sighs |
| 03:53.45 | rooly | opkg flag hold dropbear |
| 03:53.51 | rooly | should work |
| 03:53.55 | holycow | okay time to get some sleep |
| 03:54.03 | raster | http://www.shapeways.com/about/material-options |
| 03:54.04 | holycow | raster: that was fun, thx for the brainstorm |
| 03:54.15 | holycow | if you manage to pull it off you have our letter of intent |
| 03:54.18 | raster | $1.87 - $2.90 |
| 03:54.24 | raster | (pr cm^3) |
| 03:54.40 | raster | hol np :) |
| 03:54.46 | raster | i'm working on it |
| 04:03.46 | Slaxxer | sounds like backage |
| 04:03.59 | raster | rooly: http://www.rasterman.com/files/eon.png |
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| 04:06.22 | rooly | thats much better than my idea |
| 04:06.30 | rooly | isn't good at visual aesthetics |
| 04:06.36 | rooly | gj raster |
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| 04:17.49 | rooly | holy crap |
| 04:17.54 | rooly | just realised something |
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| 04:20.18 | vmx | hi.i try to build shr, but the build files (i do a "make image) http://friendpaste.com/7IRVFjfVl7tmTmp17j5do |
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| 04:25.44 | Torikun | I just installed Android on the NeoFreerunner and phone does not register on the network. Any ideas? |
| 04:25.59 | rooly | it probably won't |
| 04:26.04 | rooly | unless you're really really lucky |
| 04:26.05 | Torikun | not ready yet? |
| 04:26.15 | rooly | not the release available in the wiki |
| 04:26.19 | Torikun | I even took my sim from my G1 phone and it did not work |
| 04:26.21 | Torikun | ah |
| 04:26.28 | rooly | if you get the svn head, you might be able to |
| 04:26.48 | Torikun | you know the location |
| 04:26.51 | Torikun | checking weeky |
| 04:26.56 | rooly | no, i don't actually |
| 04:27.11 | rooly | check out koolu and see if you can find it from them |
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| 04:36.39 | Slaxxer | Enlightenments Open Network |
| 04:36.58 | Slaxxer | its just a matter of time |
| 04:37.17 | rooly | yer still on about that? |
| 04:37.53 | raster | rooly: thatw just what i quickly whipped up |
| 04:38.05 | raster | rooly: what did u realise? |
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| 04:38.36 | rooly | most phones don't have the ability to mux the gprs and gsm |
| 04:38.53 | rooly | in fact, very very few have that ability |
| 04:38.59 | rooly | i'd be suprised if the iphone could |
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| 04:42.12 | rooly | raster: do you have a smartphone at hand with working gsm/gprs? |
| 04:42.27 | raster | dunno |
| 04:42.39 | raster | i have a treo650 and a rokre6 in front of me |
| 04:42.49 | raster | but i never use data on them |
| 04:42.53 | raster | data charges are just nuts |
| 04:43.11 | rooly | well, try this, do some function that causes the gsm to be used |
| 04:43.19 | rooly | make a phone call to the local time&temperature |
| 04:43.34 | rooly | if your 'g' in the corner is crossed out, then there is no mux functionality |
| 04:45.45 | rooly | prays dropbear didn't upgrade |
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| 05:33.17 | khaije1 | is 2008.12 usable for main phone? |
| 05:34.28 | brian__ | i used it for a while |
| 05:34.56 | brian__ | looks much improved |
| 05:42.10 | khaije1 | brian__: i've been thinking about waiting till android was up and running to have a fallback, but now with FSO and stuff there is so much progress it's really impressive |
| 05:42.24 | khaije1 | it looks better than android, just for starters |
| 05:42.43 | rooly | 's because android isn't really open |
| 05:43.20 | khaije1 | well sure that has something to do with it, but more immediately it's because OM has better ideas :-) |
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| 05:44.13 | rooly | btw, guess what i've got |
| 05:44.34 | khaije1 | ? |
| 05:44.53 | rooly | bluetooth on qte 4.4.2 |
| 05:46.06 | brian__ | it does work |
| 05:46.20 | brian__ | headset? |
| 05:46.29 | rooly | dont have one at hand to try |
| 05:46.31 | khaije1 | hey, what do you think about the possibility of a 3g enabled netbook bound to an OM phone... ? how far away are we from this level of sophistication through the gui? |
| 05:47.04 | khaije1 | thinking about this is one of the reasons i'm not really sweating the 3g-phone abilities |
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| 05:48.50 | brian__ | what about gps on 4.4.2? |
| 05:49.15 | brian__ | why does that not work |
| 05:49.29 | brian__ | should by default |
| 05:49.29 | rooly | cause there is no way to turn it on |
| 05:49.48 | brian__ | terminal dont work? |
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| 05:50.25 | rooly | goes have a look see at the terminal |
| 05:50.28 | rooly | hadn't tought about that one |
| 05:51.38 | rooly | no terminal |
| 05:51.40 | rooly | sighs |
| 05:51.50 | rooly | lost my terminal app in 4.3.3 |
| 06:04.34 | brian__ | download a terminal at qtx |
| 06:04.54 | rooly | don't care enough |
| 06:04.57 | rooly | and sleepy |
| 06:04.59 | rooly | going to bed |
| 06:04.59 | brian__ | oo |
| 06:05.00 | rooly | nn |
| 06:06.04 | brian__ | now 2 applications i installed on shr both work:) |
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| 06:09.54 | mpr | "From 1 December 2008 to 30 November 2009, SPRING SEEDS Capital will match two dollars for every dollar raised by the company." |
| 06:10.23 | mpr | so you actually need just S$150k to get that S$300k from them |
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| 06:27.33 | mpr | bwahaha |
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| 06:28.18 | mpr | in finland you can get similar assistance at up to 75% of the expenses up to 250ke, and that's completely assistance funding |
| 06:28.35 | mpr | i.e. they don't want a stake and you don't have to pay them back |
| 06:30.09 | mpr | before you can get that up to 250ke thing you have to apply for a preplanning stage where they similarly pay 75% of the expenses of the planning up to 50ke |
| 06:34.07 | mpr | acceptable expenses for the planning stage are external professional services for planning the business activity, bought research for business plan |
| 06:34.36 | mpr | like market analysis, competitor/IPR/freedom-to-operate research, law research |
| 06:35.30 | mpr | and in addition salaries and associated expenses and travel, but those can account for max. 50% of the total assisted expenses |
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| 06:51.47 | atsui | hi all, just got the freerunner in the mail today and pretty excited to get started (: |
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| 07:02.02 | gurugentoo | how does one set the timezone in SHR/FSO? |
| 07:02.21 | gurugentoo | ntpdate gives me GMT |
| 07:05.37 | gurugentoo | ah /etc/localtime |
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| 08:26.17 | penner_9090_ | http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ |
| 08:28.07 | penner_9090_ | http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ <---- |
| 08:28.17 | doc|home | penner_9090_: die |
| 08:28.21 | penner_9090_ | http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ <--klick |
| 08:28.49 | doc|home | mickey|zzZZzz: Ganneff ping? |
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| 08:29.34 | penner_9090_ | http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ |
| 08:30.19 | penner_9090_ | http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ |
| 08:30.21 | penner_9090_ | http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ |
| 08:30.29 | Guest97658 | :* |
| 08:30.36 | penner_9090_ | http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ |
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| 08:32.10 | penner_9090_ | http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ |
| 08:32.59 | *** part/#openmoko penner_9090_ (n=penner_9@BAF4da1.baf.pppool.de) |
| 08:39.43 | Wonka | was ein scheiss-penner... |
| 08:43.48 | ixs | tschah |
| 08:43.58 | ixs | der penner macht das aber schon seit nen paar tagen. |
| 08:44.17 | ixs | und auf freenode ist das immer am unangenehmsten, da hier mit ops gegeizt wird. |
| 08:44.50 | ixs | im ircnet oder so, also netzen ohne services, ist meist einer wach und kickt den. wie neulich auf #ccc IIRC |
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| 08:53.51 | Defiant- | Penner... |
| 08:54.15 | ixs | da is der name programm. |
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| 09:46.45 | vmx | re. i just updated my freerunner to 2008.12 (with neotool). now i can't ping/ssh to it anymore. what could be the problem? |
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| 09:49.22 | Fish | vmx: reboot |
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| 09:51.50 | vmx | fish: thanks, you are a genious :) |
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| 10:08.50 | piko | Hi, I just tried to open openmoko, but I have little troubles to get it out. Is it safe to press the cover (with USB and mic)? |
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| 10:10.12 | raster | its pretty touch |
| 10:10.15 | raster | tough |
| 10:10.32 | piko | raster: yes, how to get it out? |
| 10:10.54 | leinirAWAY | violence is how i did it... it stood up to it, but it does feel sort of... like something you shouldn't be doing ;) |
| 10:10.56 | Mononoke | how to tell Mokomakefile to use all system resources ? :/ |
| 10:11.13 | raster | piko: dunno - i never had minein a box |
| 10:11.15 | raster | >:) |
| 10:11.17 | Mononoke | it seems to ignore MAKEOPTS and uses around 10% cpu |
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| 10:11.49 | piko | raster: nor the first time you opened the cas? |
| 10:11.50 | piko | case |
| 10:12.05 | raster | i never opened it |
| 10:12.16 | dns53 | raster is it possible to configure illume over ssh, some of the theme dialogs are too big for the screen |
| 10:12.25 | raster | my mokos came with stickers on them still and hand-written notes |
| 10:12.27 | raster | :) |
| 10:12.36 | raster | dns53: to some extent - yes |
| 10:12.41 | raster | enlightenment_remote |
| 10:12.50 | raster | u'll need to set E_IPC_SOCKET correctly |
| 10:13.01 | *** part/#openmoko vanous123 (n=vanous@85.93.174.26) |
| 10:13.07 | raster | but e is intended to be configured from its ui |
| 10:13.21 | dns53 | everything except downloading themes is easy |
| 10:13.22 | raster | just the ui dialogs havent been fixed to work on such a small screen (at a high scaling-up factor) |
| 10:16.35 | dns53 | if you could get rid of some of the fixed size elements in the theme dialog it would be much easier |
| 10:18.43 | henk | the audio volume on my side of a phone call is pretty low, i can bearly hear the other one. it's the same with 2008.x, shr and fso. is there a known-to-work fix for that or do i have to play with the mixers to find a usable setting for my device? if so, how would i do that? |
| 10:20.35 | henk | can anyone give some hints or point me somewhere this problem has already been talked about? |
| 10:25.49 | bipak_ | raster: little typo in your "Icon" description of Elementary |
| 10:25.53 | bipak_ | "The Icon man scale or not and of course... support alpha channels. " |
| 10:26.10 | raster | oops |
| 10:26.10 | bipak_ | s/man/may? |
| 10:26.19 | raster | yup |
| 10:26.58 | raster | fixed |
| 10:27.02 | bipak_ | :) |
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| 10:48.17 | gfather | hello guys |
| 10:48.25 | gfather | whats this about FCO images ? |
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| 10:52.07 | dns53 | you mean fso? |
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| 10:54.49 | gfather | sorry , yes fso |
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| 10:55.13 | gfather | <dns53 any link ? |
| 10:56.55 | dns53 | look on the list of distrobutions in openmoko, it's more an archatecture project than a distro that shr and perhaps the future official image will use |
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| 10:58.38 | gfather | i see its the one from freesmartphones |
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| 10:59.40 | dns53 | yes fso is short for freesmartphones.org |
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| 11:06.55 | faltantornillos | Hi all. I installed Debian on my freerunner but most of the time I just can't make/ receive phone calls/ sms. What can I do? pls |
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| 11:12.47 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe 07framework * r1b882a8b5f87 10/framework/subsystems/ogpsd/factory.py: ogpsd: use framework.config like ogsmd.device |
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| 11:15.12 | gfather | <faltantornillos try fso images , every one is reporting they work very good |
| 11:15.52 | faltantornillos | ok, I'll give'em a try, thanks |
| 11:16.17 | gfather | cools , when u test , tell me how good it is |
| 11:17.03 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe 07framework * r052a4b4adac2 10/framework/subsystems/odeviced/kernel26.py: odeviced: readd fcntl import which got lost during the conversion to KObjectDispatcher |
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| 13:57.44 | henk | the audio volume on my side of a phone call is pretty low, i can bearly hear the other one. it's the same with 2008.x, shr and fso. is there a known-to-work fix for that or do i have to play with the mixers to find a usable setting for my device? if so, can someone give advice on how to do that or where i can find more info about it? |
| 13:59.41 | lindi- | henk: what are you current audio settings during call? |
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| 14:00.19 | lindi- | henk: i changed only two settings: $ diff -ur /usr/share/openmoko/scenarios/ /etc/alsa-scenarios/|nc paste.dyndns.org 1234 |
| 14:00.23 | lindi- | http://rafb.net/p/ClDZua75.html |
| 14:05.21 | henk | hm i can't even start the dialer on shr unstable |
| 14:05.33 | henk | openmoko-dialer: symbol lookup error: openmoko-dialer: undefined symbol: frameworkd_handler_new |
| 14:06.00 | henk | same error as ophonekitd had before i downgraded it to the testing version. |
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| 14:13.47 | henk | http://cia.vc/stats/project/freesmartphone.org/.message/f543d could that be related to the problem? |
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| 14:17.16 | henk | lindi-: thanks for the values, i'll try them as soon as i get everything working that needs frameworkd_handler_new... :-/ |
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| 15:15.08 | chaos_ | hi! i try to compile the android source for my freerunner ... i did the step by step guide from trac.koolu.org but when i try to "make TARGET_PRODUCT=freerunner" / i always get this error: build/core/product_config.mk:141: *** No matches for product "freerunner". |
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| 15:17.07 | SM2k | trying to get openmoko emulation running in Ubuntu 8.10 and running into the "Kernel is... not found" issue mentioned on the openmoko wiki. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Automatic_emulation_in_Ubuntu google doesn't have much to say about that. anybody know how to work around that? |
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| 15:36.14 | piko | Hi, I have some troubles connecting openmoko->debugboard to the debian, I followed http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenOCD#OpenOCD_and_Debug_Board butnow openmoko seems not to start. |
| 15:37.33 | *** join/#openmoko Fish (n=SPARCman@AVelizy-152-1-53-56.w82-120.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 15:37.53 | piko | Could anyone lead me through to make the debugboard communicate? |
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| 15:44.34 | frankS2 | jeeeses, the battery on the phone is pretty bad |
| 15:44.37 | frankS2 | 5hours |
| 15:44.50 | SpeedEvil | it's not the battery. |
| 15:45.01 | SpeedEvil | It's the almost complete lack of integrated software |
| 15:45.05 | SpeedEvil | to do the power managment |
| 15:45.06 | frankS2 | what is it then? i didnt even use it |
| 15:45.11 | frankS2 | ok |
| 15:46.21 | jc | 5 hours? wtf? with what distro ? |
| 15:46.44 | jc | mine lasts much longer powered up with lcd off in fdom |
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| 15:48.27 | Wonka | mine lasts 2.5h with GPRS, GPS and display on... |
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| 15:50.13 | piko | It would be nice to gather some statistics somewhere |
| 15:50.51 | frankS2 | jc: om 12 |
| 15:51.05 | frankS2 | its so terrible |
| 15:51.11 | frankS2 | i went on a ski trip today |
| 15:51.15 | frankS2 | was going to call my friends |
| 15:51.17 | jc | thats pretty weird |
| 15:51.22 | frankS2 | no battery |
| 15:51.24 | *** join/#openmoko cb22 (n=federico@moinmoin/developer/federico) |
| 15:51.38 | jc | well of course youre supposed to suspend it when youre not using it |
| 15:51.51 | jc | I think some distros also have some autosuspend in default |
| 15:52.01 | frankS2 | yes that another problem |
| 15:52.06 | frankS2 | with autosuspend i can not wake it up |
| 15:52.08 | Slaxxer | shr does |
| 15:52.09 | frankS2 | after suspend |
| 15:52.10 | *** join/#openmoko idarwin (n=ian@24-138-98-125.zing-net.ca) |
| 15:52.10 | SpeedEvil | And some people seem to have problems with suspend not coming back |
| 15:52.16 | frankS2 | yup |
| 15:52.20 | jc | on my gentoo, it suspends/resumes ok |
| 15:52.28 | jc | although wifi doesnt work after suspend |
| 15:52.34 | jc | but wmiconfig reset should fix that |
| 15:52.37 | Slaxxer | how big is gentoo image? |
| 15:52.45 | SpeedEvil | About > < |
| 15:52.52 | jc | around 500MB is just the stage3 tarball |
| 15:53.03 | jc | another 50MB (squashfs) or 500MB is portage |
| 15:53.18 | jc | and with all the bells and whistles installed (normal portage) mine has about 1.7 GB |
| 15:53.29 | Slaxxer | holy shit |
| 15:53.29 | frankS2 | compiling on freerunner :ohnoes: |
| 15:53.32 | jc | but you can pretty much slim it down |
| 15:53.54 | SpeedEvil | frankS2: it's not that bad |
| 15:54.00 | piko | frankS2: well, it could be battery issue - many mobile phone batteries have lower capacity if in cold |
| 15:54.09 | SpeedEvil | frankS2: FR is quite fast - it's comparable with a PII/200 or so. |
| 15:54.24 | frankS2 | im used to quadcore :p |
| 15:54.28 | frankS2 | and gentoo |
| 15:54.34 | Slaxxer | pii/200 was way faster than its name |
| 15:54.45 | jc | btw. memory usage in gentoo without deamons and everything: |
| 15:54.49 | jc | 8MB on startup |
| 15:54.54 | jc | of which 6MB is disk cache |
| 15:54.56 | SpeedEvil | frankS2: to PII/400 or so. |
| 15:55.02 | jc | not counting kernel |
| 15:55.17 | SpeedEvil | frankS2: it depends on the task. Compiling is quite fast - due to faster RAM, and no FPU |
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| 16:01.39 | jc | I have a p2/200 server with gentoo above me and its quite good :) |
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| 16:03.56 | Dave | woot |
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| 16:12.20 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07fso-monitord * r31b4d3d1a40b 10/src/obj.vala: add some logging functions |
| 16:12.45 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: 03mok 07libframeworkd-glib * r447ad6711059 10/src/ogsmd/ (4 files in 2 dirs): |
| 16:12.48 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: adjust to API change for SMS sent callback |
| 16:12.50 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: Give the callback handler the new timestamp parameter |
| 16:12.52 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: for the time when the message center received the message. |
| 16:12.54 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Klaus Kurzmann <mok@fluxnetz.de> |
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| 16:33.20 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * rb9f8eb63343d 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/ (abstract/calling.py ti_calypso/unsolicited.py): ogsmd: [TI CALYPSO] honor +CRING, if -- for some reason -- we didn't get %CPI before. |
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| 16:42.58 | Slaxxer | natural aspiration |
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| 16:43.34 | Slaxxer | all depends on how u hang it on the wall |
| 16:43.42 | SM2k | emulating the Om2008.12 release under Ubuntu 8.10, I get the boot menu eg "Boot, set console and Power off", when I select boot, it pops up the splash screen for a moment and then jumps back to the menu. is that a problem with the kernel or the jffs2 image? |
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| 17:04.32 | Ansible | trying out SHR distro, working pretty decently! |
| 17:04.49 | Ansible | just got wifi working with it today, good stuff. |
| 17:05.20 | Ansible | I'm trying to get into my tmobile voicemail, and I'm supposed to dial #793# to reset the pwd. |
| 17:05.35 | Ansible | but the SHR dialer won't dial that number... any suggestions? |
| 17:05.56 | Ansible | I guess I could install another distro and dial from there... seems like a hassle though |
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| 17:06.45 | lindi- | Ansible: how does it fail? |
| 17:07.32 | Ansible | well I hit dial in the dialer, then I never get the 'call is active' screen. I guess it could be working, but I think I'm supposed to get an SMS back from tmobile and I haven't. |
| 17:08.17 | lindi- | Ansible: SHR dialers uses fso-frameworkd? |
| 17:08.35 | Ansible | hmmm, no idea what it uses |
| 17:08.53 | Ansible | I think SHR is built on FSO though |
| 17:08.58 | *** join/#openmoko apol (n=apol@84.78.178.63) |
| 17:09.35 | Ansible | screenshots are here: |
| 17:09.35 | Ansible | http://shr.bearstech.com/trac/wiki/Screenshots |
| 17:09.37 | brian__ | phone works otherwise |
| 17:09.40 | brian__ | ? |
| 17:09.40 | Ansible | y |
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| 17:10.36 | Sharwin_F | Ansible, I have a similar problem when calling *134# to know the money in my mobile account |
| 17:10.51 | Sharwin_F | it doesn't show any calling screen, but I get the message anyway :) |
| 17:10.57 | brian__ | report the bug |
| 17:10.59 | Sharwin_F | in SHR also |
| 17:11.14 | Ansible | ok, will do. |
| 17:12.25 | Sharwin_F | does anybody know if it's posible to export contacts from SHR to the computer or to a text file? |
| 17:12.48 | Sharwin_F | I read qtopia uses sqlite to store info, but I don't know anything about SHR |
| 17:13.01 | Ansible | yikes, tried dialing *793# and it crashed the dialer! |
| 17:13.20 | Ansible | now dialer crashes with a regular number too, rebooting. |
| 17:14.51 | *** join/#openmoko alx} (n=alx}--@AToulouse-152-1-9-37.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 17:15.09 | lindi- | Ansible: screenshots? ps axuf would be more useful |
| 17:15.21 | Ansible | ps axuf == ??? |
| 17:15.42 | lindi- | Ansible: how do you list processes if not with ps? |
| 17:16.13 | Ansible | guess I don't |
| 17:16.26 | Ansible | there's Htop in SHR |
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| 17:36.44 | jc | btw. do you think that flashing with nandwrite would be faster than with dfu-util ? |
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| 17:48.04 | max_posedon | jc, I think dfu-util is kind of frontend for nandwrite |
| 17:48.54 | Wonka | that is not so. dfu-util is a tool for doing flash operations over usb using the device firmware upgrade protocol. |
| 17:48.56 | jc | max_posedon: nandwrite is utility inside linux whereas dfu-util uses usb link with u-boot to write it |
| 17:49.44 | jc | Wonka: do you think uploading my image to sd card and writing it via uboot (or nandwrite) afterwards would be faster than dfu-util ? |
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| 17:50.12 | Wonka | could be. no idea. |
| 17:50.45 | jc | damn.. error during download.. again.. guess I'll have to try ) |
| 17:50.46 | jc | :) |
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| 17:59.12 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * re6a8e8105ddc 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/gsm/channel.py: |
| 17:59.12 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: ogsmd: channel.py: remove potential races |
| 17:59.13 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: * create answer timeout always (even if no one is listening) |
| 17:59.13 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: * feed value of response watch to parser (which should be more accurate than |
| 17:59.13 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: the whether there is something in the queue or not) |
| 18:00.15 | Sharwin_F | what are these messages from CIA-46 ? |
| 18:00.35 | SpeedEvil | commits tot he tree |
| 18:00.37 | jc | I guess those are svn commit messages |
| 18:00.44 | Sharwin_F | ok thanks :) |
| 18:00.45 | Ganneff | git |
| 18:01.16 | jc | right, git... |
| 18:01.57 | Sharwin_F | hmm I didn't receive a message from a friend she told she had sent me, so I've rebooted |
| 18:02.26 | Sharwin_F | and now when I enter it says the memory it's full and that i've to delete messages or I won't receive more messages |
| 18:02.35 | Sharwin_F | and I have only 20 messages on the inbox lol |
| 18:03.24 | mickeyl | could be |
| 18:03.29 | mickeyl | if it's the SIM inbox |
| 18:03.37 | mickeyl | SIM only contains very few message slots |
| 18:03.51 | *** join/#openmoko Slaxxer (n=brian@ip72-204-125-6.fv.ks.cox.net) |
| 18:03.53 | Sharwin_F | mickeyl, so SHR does only use SIM box at the moment |
| 18:04.03 | *** join/#openmoko emacsian (n=ram@122.167.92.129) |
| 18:04.20 | mickeyl | correct |
| 18:04.40 | mickeyl | non-SIM PIM db is under construction |
| 18:04.51 | jc | great :) |
| 18:05.50 | Sharwin_F | The bad thing of SHR at the moment for me is that GSM apps needs lot of working :) |
| 18:05.54 | jc | btw. is fatload into ram safe for a 68MB file on freerunner ? |
| 18:06.13 | jc | it has not been responding for a long time |
| 18:06.55 | mickeyl | hmm, i don't know how memory is mapped from uboot |
| 18:07.08 | jc | I'm trying to flash SHR into my phone and dfu-util hangs, so I have to go this way... |
| 18:07.34 | Sharwin_F | jc, I've used always Neotool and it works without problems :) |
| 18:07.47 | jc | Sharwin_F: is it fast ? |
| 18:08.25 | jc | they write: Please note that this will only work with root file system sizes that are smaller than the amount of memory above 0x32000000, which in the case of 64MB SDRAM is something like 32MB. |
| 18:08.26 | Sharwin_F | jc, what do you understand by fast? 30 seconds? xD |
| 18:08.44 | jc | Sharwin_F: less than an hour for the whole flash ? |
| 18:08.59 | *** join/#openmoko eolson (n=eolson@c-24-13-244-61.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 18:09.12 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 18:09.13 | Sharwin_F | jc, you are flashing SHR into a gta02? |
| 18:09.18 | *** join/#openmoko apollo13 (n=apollo13@unaffiliated/apollo13) |
| 18:09.19 | Sharwin_F | an hour? o.O |
| 18:09.21 | jc | dfu-util was fairly fast for my need, unfortunately doesn't work on my second x86 machine |
| 18:09.42 | jc | Sharwin_F: even longer than that, but I'm uncertain whether it hung |
| 18:09.55 | Sharwin_F | neotool makes use of dfu-util |
| 18:10.05 | jc | ... which hangs |
| 18:10.12 | Sharwin_F | but it doesn't take so long for me, maybe 10-15 min |
| 18:10.23 | jc | yeah that is it |
| 18:10.31 | jc | I was talking about the whole flash |
| 18:10.38 | jc | SHR just takes about 70 MB or so |
| 18:10.49 | Sharwin_F | jc, yes, I'm speaking about SHR |
| 18:10.53 | jc | the whole flash is 256 MB I think |
| 18:11.11 | Sharwin_F | jc, oh, so you have to flash more things than the ones in SHR image? |
| 18:11.36 | jc | nope, I was talking about what kinda speed is ok, and its hour for the whole flash, which means under 20 minutes for SHR |
| 18:11.56 | Sharwin_F | noidea :) |
| 18:11.59 | jc | its seems that when reading from microsd its slower or it already hung |
| 18:12.07 | jc | pretty weird |
| 18:12.15 | *** join/#openmoko pH5 (n=ph5@p5485F315.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:12.31 | Sharwin_F | What I hate more about GMS apps in SHR is that the program doesn't show the name of the contact who send you a meesage or calls you >.< |
| 18:12.38 | Sharwin_F | *GSM |
| 18:12.38 | *** join/#openmoko MHazem (n=Satan@41.196.60.130) |
| 18:12.55 | Sharwin_F | so I've no idea who is sending me the message xD |
| 18:13.36 | Ansible | hey in SHR when I go to midori I have this bar that says "warning: You are using a superuser account!" |
| 18:13.42 | jc | great, here it is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_Memory_Mapping |
| 18:13.42 | Ansible | any way to get rid of that? |
| 18:14.39 | jc | so after 0x32000000 theres another 32MB of memory and then a gap |
| 18:14.43 | jc | which means I'm screwed |
| 18:14.52 | lindi- | Ansible: don't run as root |
| 18:15.26 | Ansible | heh, yeah, but I figured that wasn't a good idea on the OM? otherwise wouldn't they configure it that way by default? |
| 18:15.45 | lindi- | Ansible: i thought you were running SHR? |
| 18:15.53 | Ansible | yeah I am. |
| 18:15.57 | lindi- | and not OM? |
| 18:16.57 | Ansible | so, you can create a new user in SHR and run as that user without problems? have you done that? |
| 18:17.20 | lindi- | Ansible: i do that in debian |
| 18:20.40 | jc | is there any u-boot command I missed to init the other half of the memory in freerunner ? |
| 18:21.03 | EpiJunkie | Hello all. |
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| 18:29.29 | Sharwin_F | i think I've found a bug on the Inbox on SHR. Can anyone confirm? the button "Options" which should display 3 options, display the 3 buttons behind the list after... |
| 18:29.35 | Sharwin_F | 1- delete a message |
| 18:29.39 | Sharwin_F | 2- show another message |
| 18:29.45 | Sharwin_F | 3- click option button in the message list |
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| 18:31.02 | Sharwin_F | mm I've rebooted the app and now doesn't happen that weird thing :) |
| 18:31.33 | Sharwin_F | maybe it only happens when doin that after sending a message |
| 18:31.41 | jc | yeeey I managed triggering a memory abort by writing nonaligned address |
| 18:31.45 | jc | what a happy person am I |
| 18:31.50 | Sharwin_F | hahaah |
| 18:31.57 | jc | almost had it :/ |
| 18:32.00 | *** join/#openmoko Cervajz (n=Cervajz@r2ab25.net.upc.cz) |
| 18:33.03 | Sharwin_F | jc, why the image are you flashing is so fat? |
| 18:33.14 | jc | no, its only 70MB |
| 18:33.27 | jc | but because of that I need to init the other half of the memory too (somehow) :/ |
| 18:33.31 | *** join/#openmoko Fish (n=SPARCman@AVelizy-152-1-43-232.w82-120.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 18:33.52 | Sharwin_F | jc, I don't need to do that on netool, just clic o flash on the GUI :D |
| 18:33.58 | Sharwin_F | *to |
| 18:34.09 | jc | yeah with dfu-util neither |
| 18:34.15 | jc | but it doesn't work here |
| 18:34.28 | Sharwin_F | jc, are you using another app? |
| 18:34.35 | jc | I have the image on microsd and I have to put it into ram *somewhere* and then write it into nand |
| 18:34.46 | jc | yes, directly via u-boot |
| 18:34.53 | *** join/#openmoko baze (n=baze@g226198077.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 18:35.09 | jc | the putting into memory part isn't so hard.. |
| 18:35.14 | jc | but finding where to put it is :/ |
| 18:35.26 | jc | it seems only half of the memory is initialized |
| 18:35.33 | jc | so only 64MB is available |
| 18:35.46 | jc | I try to write beyond that - the device hangs |
| 18:36.44 | jc | OH ! |
| 18:36.46 | jc | actually its 59MB |
| 18:36.52 | jc | damn how could I have missed that |
| 18:36.59 | jc | I'll just write it into 0x30000000 then :) |
| 18:37.52 | Sharwin_F | jc, can't you run from microsd? |
| 18:37.54 | *** join/#openmoko leachim_dot_eu (n=Leachim@Mda93.m.pppool.de) |
| 18:38.13 | jc | Sharwin_F: I can but I want to have other card with gentoo inside :) |
| 18:38.22 | Sharwin_F | ok :) |
| 18:38.45 | mwester | jc: get a bigger card! |
| 18:38.47 | jc | 0x30000000 contains some crap on the start and then its all fffs, hope its ok to write it |
| 18:38.58 | jc | mwester: gimme money for a bigger card :P |
| 18:39.05 | jc | and one that is readable from u-boot too :P |
| 18:39.08 | mwester | jc: re: your much earlier question -- yes, nandwrite is way, way, way faster than dfu-util. |
| 18:39.34 | *** join/#openmoko everslick (n=clemens@91-113-126-155.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 18:39.39 | Sharwin_F | hoping contacts and message apps are being developed fastly |
| 18:40.26 | mwester | jc: the readable from u-boot stuff is the communities fault -- this place is full of way too many lazy people!!!! :D :P Kexec with a small rootfs in flash is all you need to boot a linux kernel, read the real kernel from whatever sd card partition you wish, and boot it. |
| 18:41.06 | *** join/#openmoko quatrox1 (n=quatrox@58.80-202-61.nextgentel.com) |
| 18:41.32 | jc | mwester: with gentoo, I just load kernel from flash, then it works with whatever card is supported in kernel |
| 18:41.37 | mwester | Seriously though, we really do need a sample "kexec" rootfs for people to see how this works; maybe that would spur more development in that area. I just lack time right now, although I have such a rootfs running on my flash-deficient GTA01. |
| 18:42.22 | jc | I'm not sure whether kexec is safe |
| 18:42.26 | jc | its definitely not the cleanest method |
| 18:42.35 | *** part/#openmoko petaflot (n=dave@idefix.pg21.org) |
| 18:42.37 | mwester | jc: That's a good strategy too. You can actually place the kernel at any spot in the flash - so you could squeeze a couple of 2MB kernel images into the GTA02's kernel partition so that you can choose two kernels from the u-boot boot menu. |
| 18:42.54 | jc | yeah I know :) |
| 18:43.01 | mwester | jc:It *is* the cleanest method! Far better than the hideous overgrown brush-pile that uboot has become! |
| 18:43.17 | jc | u-boot is great for saving things |
| 18:43.24 | jc | and for testing code without debugboard |
| 18:43.37 | jc | if you remove it from nor, I'd be a very sad panda |
| 18:43.45 | SpeedEvil | flash neeFlash is not error free |
| 18:43.49 | SpeedEvil | err |
| 18:43.54 | SpeedEvil | nand flash |
| 18:44.15 | SpeedEvil | so that adds a layer of complication, you can't just boot straight into an arbitrary image |
| 18:44.17 | mwester | has used kexec for those things, very successfully -- you can't have u-boot download a test kernel from a tftp server and boot from that -- but that's how I test kernels on the GTA01 |
| 18:44.20 | SpeedEvil | you need to do het erro rcorrection. |
| 18:44.34 | jc | just WHY the hell is 0x32000000 recommended by default for loading things and not 0x30000000 ? |
| 18:44.45 | jc | is there some kind of stack there or what? :/ |
| 18:44.54 | jc | mtest runs ok against that region |
| 18:45.10 | *** join/#openmoko apol (n=apol@84.78.178.63) |
| 18:45.13 | quatrox1 | mwester: how is the boot time with kexec compared to qi and uboot? |
| 18:45.40 | mwester | good question - post it to the om kernel list, werner probably knows off the top of his head why 0x3200000000000000000000 is used. :) |
| 18:46.15 | jc | oh I wouldn't dare taint the sacred list with this kinda crap |
| 18:47.20 | mwester | quatrox1: I haven't replaced u-boot on any of my devices, so I can't really say -- for me it's a simple sum -- just add the amount of time it takes to boot the kernel (but not run init). |
| 18:47.22 | jc | allright NOT cool |
| 18:47.29 | jc | lol my screen just flashed |
| 18:47.45 | jc | I started writing a jffs2 image to 0x30000000 |
| 18:47.55 | jc | seems like something important is mapped somewhere in there |
| 18:48.28 | quatrox1 | jc: did you look at the partition mapping table at the wiki? |
| 18:48.41 | jc | I looked at the SDRAM mapping |
| 18:48.54 | jc | or generally memory mapping |
| 18:49.02 | quatrox1 | ok |
| 18:49.03 | jc | 0x30000000 should be start of sdram on fr |
| 18:49.23 | jc | also theres a small ammount of ram at 0x0 probably used by the u-boot now |
| 18:49.30 | *** join/#openmoko ruoso (n=ruoso@201009079211.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
| 18:49.36 | SpeedEvil | stomping executing bootloadder is usually bad |
| 18:49.47 | jc | yeah god knows WHERE it was |
| 18:50.13 | jc | lets see |
| 18:50.51 | jc | base 0 |
| 18:50.55 | SpeedEvil | thought the steppingstone ROM was mapped to 0 |
| 18:51.27 | jc | I thought its a ram and it just gets whatever code from rom copied into it before the cpu boots afaik |
| 18:51.38 | jc | (which should be u-boot?) |
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| 18:51.59 | SpeedEvil | I'm not aware of any RAM integrated on the die |
| 18:52.06 | SpeedEvil | (other than registers and cache) |
| 18:52.32 | SpeedEvil | The CPU starts executing the 48K of steppingstone ROM code, that's programmed by samsung |
| 18:52.55 | SpeedEvil | I think the stock one just reads a block from NAND or NOR, depending on the value of an external pin, and executes it. |
| 18:52.58 | jc | damn the memory is full of crap.. |
| 18:53.19 | jc | I guess if I erase it completely with zeroes and quickly reboot it I could determine where uboot places itself |
| 18:53.36 | SpeedEvil | Or use the source. |
| 18:53.41 | jc | SpeedEvil: yeah there is, but just 64MB |
| 18:53.52 | SpeedEvil | jc: on the die |
| 18:53.58 | *** join/#openmoko dkirker (n=dkirker@adsl-99-2-134-30.dsl.snlo01.sbcglobal.net) |
| 18:53.58 | jc | see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_Memory_Mapping |
| 18:54.00 | SpeedEvil | jc: not in the package |
| 18:54.22 | SpeedEvil | jc: it's a RAM chip in the same package. It's not one chip with the CPU. |
| 18:54.45 | jc | i guess the only 'ram' thats on die is the cache, isn't it ? |
| 18:54.54 | SpeedEvil | jc: and registers I think. |
| 18:55.02 | jc | yeah those are flip flops |
| 18:55.46 | DocScrutinizer2 | SpeedEvil: define chip |
| 18:55.53 | jc | right, 0x34000000 and a up seems to be full of zeroes |
| 18:56.18 | SpeedEvil | doc|home: one contiguous bit of silicon that is sliced out of a wafer. |
| 18:56.19 | SpeedEvil | docs: |
| 18:56.23 | Wonka | flipflops aka SRAM |
| 18:56.52 | Wonka | bumbl: in the package. it's python and shell skripts. |
| 18:57.13 | jc | hreat |
| 18:57.15 | jc | great |
| 18:57.17 | jc | I just tested |
| 18:57.22 | jc | memory in 0x34000000 is a ram |
| 18:57.26 | jc | so its initialized |
| 18:57.33 | jc | tried writing/reading from it |
| 18:57.39 | jc | so why doesnt it load my image :/ |
| 18:59.30 | *** join/#openmoko Fish- (n=SPARCman@AVelizy-152-1-80-92.w86-217.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 19:00.13 | *** join/#openmoko playya (n=playya@g230131141.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 19:00.44 | DocScrutinizer2 | SpeedEvil: isn't that a die |
| 19:01.11 | *** join/#openmoko AntonTakk (n=AntonTak@poolofdespair.net) |
| 19:01.53 | bumbl | Wonka: ? |
| 19:02.40 | SpeedEvil | follows the Humpty Dumpty school of word choice. |
| 19:03.06 | jc | ok maybe it has problems when its overlaping over two chips |
| 19:03.19 | jc | I'll try writing the image to 0x34000000 |
| 19:03.24 | Wonka | bumbl: 4th comment on http://risto.kurppa.fi/blog/my-openmoko-wishlist/#comments points to http://www.opkg.org/package_97.html which in turn points to http://www.opkg.org/packages/osmupdater_0.3_any.ipk |
| 19:03.33 | Wonka | bumbl: which in turn has some skripts |
| 19:03.42 | SpeedEvil | "When I say a word, it means exactly what I want it to mean". |
| 19:03.51 | SpeedEvil | However, I agree die is the more usual term. |
| 19:04.00 | *** join/#openmoko emacsian (n=ram@122.167.92.129) |
| 19:04.13 | DocScrutinizer2 | SpeedEvil: S3C2442 is a SoC, as System on a CHIP |
| 19:04.15 | Wonka | going to eat dinner... |
| 19:04.34 | *** join/#openmoko apol (n=apol@84.78.178.63) |
| 19:04.35 | SpeedEvil | doc|home: yes, I know. I picked the wrong word. |
| 19:04.35 | SpeedEvil | docs: |
| 19:04.39 | bumbl | ah thank you Wonka |
| 19:05.08 | bumbl | i just was a bit confused because I asked the question in cdevel |
| 19:05.36 | Wonka | bumbl: oops, my fault :) |
| 19:06.03 | Wonka | bumbl: got the three openmoko channels i am in in the same irssi window |
| 19:06.17 | bumbl | ah ok |
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| 19:07.40 | DocScrutinizer2 | SpeedEvil: I asked because i wasn't clear about it myself ;-) |
| 19:08.04 | jc | right, my phone just died again... |
| 19:08.08 | jc | goddammit :/ |
| 19:10.21 | jc | there must be something mapped into that ram because my screen gets all white after a while... |
| 19:10.50 | jc | the wiki must be lying :/ |
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| 19:12.10 | AntonTakk | ping |
| 19:12.43 | quatrox1 | jc: maybe that ram is reserved for graphics or something |
| 19:12.51 | quatrox1 | just my stupid guess |
| 19:13.04 | jc | quatrox1, according to wiki, it should be general purpose sdram |
| 19:13.14 | jc | I'd expect the 8MB of video ram to be inside the glamo region |
| 19:13.43 | quatrox1 | me too, but not sure if we always use that |
| 19:13.51 | quatrox1 | since gta01 does not have the glamo |
| 19:14.34 | quatrox1 | but it should be mach specific |
| 19:14.41 | jc | good idea |
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| 19:14.53 | *** part/#openmoko adc_penner7 (n=adc_penn@i577BF938.versanet.de) |
| 19:15.21 | jc | actually maybe that bitch glamo doesn't have the memory on itself and just steals a portion of sdram |
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| 19:15.52 | quatrox1 | or maybe we only use the glamo mem after the glamo driver is inited? |
| 19:16.11 | jc | dunno |
| 19:16.16 | doc|home | pokes SpeedEvil in the eye |
| 19:18.44 | quatrox1 | PaulFertser: did you get your patch accepted? |
| 19:18.51 | jc | damn.. if only the image loading was gap-aware |
| 19:18.52 | PaulFertser | quatrox1: Hey :) |
| 19:19.00 | PaulFertser | quatrox1: yes, it did. |
| 19:19.05 | quatrox1 | great:) |
| 19:19.14 | PaulFertser | quatrox1: BTW, i've another idea what can be wrong with your restart.sh |
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| 19:21.56 | Sharwin_F | where's the bugtracker for illume? is the same than enlightenment? or I should use the SHR one? |
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| 19:22.25 | Sharwin_F | enlightenment crashes when I set the mixer gadget |
| 19:22.29 | Sharwin_F | in he shelf |
| 19:22.33 | Sharwin_F | *the |
| 19:22.57 | jc | Sharwin_F: that'd be a question for raster if he doesn't mind being bothered |
| 19:24.14 | DocScrutinizer2 | jc: glamo video ram is inside glamo, it doesn't interfere with standard ram address space in any way you suggested |
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| 19:24.52 | jc | DocScrutinizer2: any idea why my screen gets white when I load a 59MB large image into 0x34000000 where 64MB of SDRAM should be available ? |
| 19:25.24 | CIA-46 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * rddade22d7df7 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/ti_calypso/channel.py: ogsmd: [TI CALYPSO] fix bogus GSM wakeups introduced by f734551d42315bac6bc63aa5c5e2d793f16245ea |
| 19:25.58 | DocScrutinizer2 | no. not really. prolly you're overwriting some data/code located there |
| 19:26.40 | jc | maybe it neads more ram than just the size of the file |
| 19:26.44 | jc | would explain it |
| 19:27.00 | jc | its a pretty tight fit |
| 19:27.04 | jc | I usually just load kernel this way |
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| 19:36.42 | jc | does anybody know whats the board name in u-boot source for gta02 ? |
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| 19:45.43 | jc | SpeedEvil: you suggested to read the source.. |
| 19:45.58 | jc | SpeedEvil: I can't figure out what *ep is for: http://git.openmoko.org/?p=u-boot.git;a=blob;f=common/cmd_fat.c;h=9576cdf389df838323d32d3c005cc0fdb0d96e3f;hb=aeff6d503b6006573d5c6b04fc658a64bebee5fa#l36 |
| 19:46.05 | jc | SpeedEvil: any idea ? |
| 19:46.29 | jc | thats the command I get stuck in |
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| 19:49.09 | jc | SpeedEvil: never mind, figured it out |
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| 20:06.13 | uzytkownik | How to force opkg to install specific version? |
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| 20:06.25 | henk | uzytkownik: -force-downgrade? |
| 20:07.22 | uzytkownik | henk: If it would help I wouldn't ask... |
| 20:07.35 | uzytkownik | $ opkg install -force-downgrade -test install ophonekitd_0.0.1\+ |
| 20:07.35 | uzytkownik | gitr514\+b3961977c3c2b3ce8fabded3a7cbea9115b4ca6f-r12.1_armv4t.ipk |
| 20:07.35 | uzytkownik | Multiple packages (ophonekitd and ophonekitd) providing same name marked HOLD or PREFER. Using latest. |
| 20:07.38 | uzytkownik | Installing ophonekitd (0.0.1+gitr544+7ad092809ea50a70b67ca23397b658f8991aa990-r12) to root... |
| 20:07.40 | uzytkownik | Downloading http://shr.bearstech.com/shr-unstable/ipk//armv4t/ophonekitd_0.0.1+gitr544+7ad092809ea50a70b67ca23397b658f8991aa990-r12_armv4t.ipk |
| 20:07.48 | henk | uzytkownik: use a pastebin next time! |
| 20:08.47 | henk | uzytkownik: try sticking exactly to the syntax... |
| 20:09.27 | henk | usage: opkg [options...] sub-command [arguments...] |
| 20:09.48 | uzytkownik | henk: Doesn't help |
| 20:10.26 | henk | uzytkownik: download the ipk manually and give the path to the ipk to opkg |
| 20:10.43 | uzytkownik | henk: Tried |
| 20:13.39 | henk | hm, strange. i have done exactly that downgrade yesterday, but can't redo it now... |
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| 20:14.38 | jc | wow writing flash via nandwrite is lightning fast ! |
| 20:14.50 | henk | uzytkownik: disable the repository the package comes from temporarily. that should work, but is an ugly workaround. |
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| 20:16.46 | henk | in shr the openmoko-dialer dies when trying to dial a number. E says the error log is saved to /home/root/dialer.something, but there are no files in /home/root/ looking like an error log. what's wrong? |
| 20:17.19 | *** join/#openmoko Slaxxer (n=brian@ip72-204-125-6.fv.ks.cox.net) |
| 20:17.19 | mwester | jc: Yet another reason to use kexec and an initramfs -- you can use nandwrite instead of dfu-util --- it'll be much faster. |
| 20:17.44 | henk | starting manually via ssh yields this error: Failed to handle dbus error: type: <class 'framework.resource.ResourceNotEnabled'> |
| 20:17.47 | henk | , 69 (dbus-glib-error-quark), code 32 |
| 20:18.16 | jc | hehe I have only 4 bad blocks in my nand |
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| 20:18.43 | mwester | right now... |
| 20:19.19 | jc | mwester: how do you write a jffs2 image via nandwrite ? |
| 20:19.32 | jc | mwester can you supply a .jffs2 file directly to nandwrite ? |
| 20:21.49 | Digital-Pioneer | Anyone know how I could make Amarok recognize the FR as a media player? All it would need to do is manage the media files in a folder. |
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| 20:22.57 | jc | Digital-Pioneer: either you use sshfs or http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Using_the_Neo_as_an_USB_Mass_storage_device |
| 20:24.45 | jc | mwester: when doing: nandwrite /dev/mtd6 /var/tmp/shr.jffs2 I get a buttload of I/O errors |
| 20:25.07 | jc | mwester: nandtest runs ok though.. any idea? |
| 20:25.21 | henk | uhm wasn't there something on the ml about someone doing the same recently? |
| 20:25.44 | henk | jc: not /dev/mtdblock6? |
| 20:25.55 | jc | henk: should it be ? |
| 20:26.21 | henk | idk, sorry. just remember that thread... |
| 20:26.29 | jc | henk: nandwrite /dev/mtdblock6 /var/tmp/shr.jffs2 gives me : |
| 20:26.40 | jc | MEMGETINFO: Inappropriate ioctl for device |
| 20:26.53 | jc | I have: |
| 20:26.53 | jc | mtd0 mtd1 mtd2 mtd3 mtd4 mtd5 mtd6 mtdblock0 mtdblock2 mtdblock4 mtdblock6 |
| 20:26.53 | jc | mtd0ro mtd1ro mtd2ro mtd3ro mtd4ro mtd5ro mtd6ro mtdblock1 mtdblock3 mtdblock5 |
| 20:27.08 | jc | of which: |
| 20:27.09 | jc | dev: size erasesize name |
| 20:27.09 | jc | mtd0: 00200000 00010000 "physmap-flash.0" |
| 20:27.09 | jc | mtd1: 00040000 00020000 "u-boot" |
| 20:27.09 | jc | mtd2: 00040000 00020000 "u-boot_env" |
| 20:27.09 | jc | mtd3: 00800000 00020000 "kernel" |
| 20:27.12 | jc | mtd4: 000a0000 00020000 "splash" |
| 20:27.14 | jc | mtd5: 00040000 00020000 "factory" |
| 20:27.16 | jc | mtd6: 0f6a0000 00020000 "rootfs" |
| 20:27.18 | jc | I'm trying to write an image into rootfs |
| 20:27.23 | henk | then mtd6 might be right. |
| 20:27.46 | jc | nandtest /dev/mtd6 runs fine and finds 4 bad blocks |
| 20:27.59 | jc | which would mean it can definitely read/write the flash |
| 20:28.12 | jc | nandwrite of a .jffs2 file gives me: |
| 20:28.13 | jc | Erasing failed write from 02cc0000-02cdffff |
| 20:28.13 | jc | Writing data to block 359 at offset 0x2ce0000 |
| 20:28.13 | jc | pwrite: Input/output error |
| 20:28.13 | jc | Erasing failed write from 02ce0000-02cfffff |
| 20:28.13 | jc | Writing data to block 360 at offset 0x2d00000 |
| 20:28.15 | jc | pwrite: Input/output error |
| 20:28.17 | jc | Erasing failed write from 02d00000-02d1ffff |
| 20:28.19 | jc | Writing data to block 361 at offset 0x2d20000 |
| 20:28.23 | jc | pwrite: Input/output error |
| 20:28.25 | jc | and a whole lot more of those |
| 20:29.16 | jc | damn.. on a fourth try, it works.. |
| 20:29.23 | jc | thats weird |
| 20:29.57 | mwester | jc: you'd have to check the code to nandwrite to see what it does for badblock handling, I think. I've only used it for very small flashes on other devices, and for kernel flashing on the GTA0x devices (all my rootfs' are on SD) |
| 20:30.28 | jc | well.. still it then spits out errors after a while and gives me: Data was only partially written due to error |
| 20:30.35 | jc | damn :/ |
| 20:30.47 | jc | mwester: yeah think I'll have to.. |
| 20:31.02 | jc | maybe its not even possible to do it with nandwrite when there are bad blocks |
| 20:33.28 | jc | oh yes, shouldn't it get erased first ? |
| 20:33.48 | henk | http://markmail.org/message/p62vjr5ycgf6kus5#query:nandwrite%20openmoko+page:1+mid:7vf5pxbjzkspzxia+state:results |
| 20:34.42 | jc | henk: thanks :) |
| 20:35.56 | jc | yeah I discovered now how to do it properly |
| 20:35.59 | jc | its nandwrite -p |
| 20:36.03 | jc | that adds the padding :) |
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| 20:36.33 | henk | jc: could you perhaps add some short info about flashing stuff with nandwrite to the wiki? |
| 20:36.53 | henk | in case it's not already there... |
| 20:36.57 | jc | henk: sure.. but I'm still not sure about tha bad blocks |
| 20:37.07 | jc | henk: nope, I searched it for nandwrite |
| 20:37.18 | jc | only doing it via u-boot is mentioned |
| 20:37.25 | jc | (which didn't work for me, for mysterious reasons) |
| 20:37.42 | henk | jc: write that there, perhaps it will result in a discussion and the info will be added by someone else. |
| 20:37.55 | jc | henk: ok |
| 20:38.02 | henk | jc: thanks :) |
| 20:38.10 | jc | no, thank you :) |
| 20:38.37 | jc | btw if its the proper way, its lightning fast |
| 20:39.24 | jc | time nandwrite -m -p /dev/mtd6 /var/tmp/shr.jffs2: |
| 20:39.24 | jc | real0m31.389s |
| 20:39.24 | jc | user0m0.050s |
| 20:39.24 | jc | sys0m29.380s |
| 20:39.43 | jc | yes, about 31 seconds for a 60MB image :) |
| 20:39.46 | henk | hm, nice! i should put debian on my card so i have a system to use it 'g' |
| 20:40.03 | jc | in contrast to the 15 minutes or so with dfu-utils |
| 20:40.06 | jc | util |
| 20:40.11 | jc | which is broken on my system anyway |
| 20:41.08 | jc | henk: where do you thing would be the best place to put it? I was thinking http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_the_Neo_FreeRunner |
| 20:41.25 | henk | jc: exactly what i was thinking of. |
| 20:41.30 | jc | ok |
| 20:42.22 | jc | btw. with the -m parameter, it writes: |
| 20:42.23 | jc | Bad block at 440000, 1 block(s) from 440000 will be skipped |
| 20:42.23 | jc | Writing data to block 35 at offset 0x460000 |
| 20:42.23 | jc | Bad block at 460000, 1 block(s) from 460000 will be skipped |
| 20:42.23 | jc | Writing data to block 36 at offset 0x480000 |
| 20:42.23 | jc | Bad block at 480000, 1 block(s) from 480000 will be skipped |
| 20:42.25 | jc | Writing data to block 37 at offset 0x4a0000 |
| 20:42.27 | jc | Bad block at 4a0000, 1 block(s) from 4a0000 will be skipped |
| 20:42.29 | jc | Writing data to block 38 at offset 0x4c0000 |
| 20:42.31 | jc | Bad block at 4c0000, 1 block(s) from 4c0000 will be skipped |
| 20:42.33 | jc | it seems it skips bad blocks :) |
| 20:42.38 | jc | I'll try to mount the fs and see if its ok |
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| 20:44.17 | jc | yes ! |
| 20:44.22 | jc | its mountable and seems to be ok :) |
| 20:44.36 | jc | theres no fsck.jffs2 though |
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| 20:55.22 | quatrox1 | when I build shr, the files in tmp/rootfs/dev is normal files, not devices |
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| 20:56.51 | quatrox1 | do I need privileges to create devices? |
| 20:58.04 | mwester | no |
| 20:58.15 | mwester | what are you looking at where you see files? |
| 21:00.06 | quatrox1 | ls -l dump at http://pastebin.com/d51dbd614 |
| 21:01.23 | quatrox1 | I would expect them to be character and block devices |
| 21:01.34 | quatrox1 | and owned by correct user |
| 21:04.10 | Digital-Pioneer | So, what's the best media player for FR? |
| 21:07.41 | quatrox1 | Digital-Pioneer: use mplayer from the console |
| 21:07.55 | quatrox1 | or else it will not play smooth |
| 21:08.18 | bernt | Digital-Pioneer: I#ve the same question ;-) .. had tried some programs .. one thing very important to have is ionice ! it seems that mpg321 is the best for playing mp3s. |
| 21:08.58 | bernt | (mplayer for mp3s is a bit overkill) |
| 21:10.05 | Digital-Pioneer | quatrox1: pythm does OK, but it's UGLY. |
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| 21:10.26 | Digital-Pioneer | bernt: I don't do MP3s. |
| 21:11.09 | Digital-Pioneer | gives elitist speech on audio formats, bashing MP3 and praising OGG. |
| 21:11.09 | *** join/#openmoko emacsian (n=ram@122.167.92.129) |
| 21:11.16 | Digital-Pioneer | ;) |
| 21:11.40 | bernt | I have tried pythm but without ionice and when changing the output volume the sound was not good. |
| 21:11.53 | Digital-Pioneer | Yeah, pythm's volume control sucks too. :P |
| 21:12.02 | tilman | irssi fails. only displaying the topic in one line sucks... |
| 21:12.19 | quatrox1 | Digital-Pioneer: It cannot play smooth here |
| 21:12.24 | tilman | (i was looking for the slide-finger-up-on-they-keyboard thing :> |
| 21:13.13 | quatrox1 | Digital-Pioneer: not all my ogg vorbis files... just some of them |
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| 21:14.34 | Digital-Pioneer | quatrox1: Well I just tossed a few OGGs onto the card and it's playing them smoothly enough as long as I don't mess with it. |
| 21:15.31 | Digital-Pioneer | And I'm sure I can't use neoqplayer on SHR right? |
| 21:15.51 | bernt | why not? |
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| 21:16.59 | Digital-Pioneer | Can I get Qt4/Phonon/all that good stuff on SHR? |
| 21:17.48 | quatrox1 | Stable Hybride Release is supposed to support Qt |
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| 21:21.33 | Digital-Pioneer | Bah, no ipk anyways. :( |
| 21:28.49 | jc | henk: I want to put in mtd partition map for clarity, any idea what kinda wikimark I should use for citing large code output ? |
| 21:30.11 | almien | pre |
| 21:30.56 | jc | almien: thanks |
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| 21:33.33 | almien | why does SHR by default not support "import urllib" in python? |
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| 21:36.55 | jc | how do you thing I should put clearly that using nandwrite, you are overwriting nand directly on the phone and not from a computer ? |
| 21:37.18 | jc | I'm thinking: 'This approach involves writing the nand directly on the phone, not necessarily via usb.' |
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| 21:43.34 | jc | allright, could someone familiar with wikis please check this for clarity? its my first major edit :) http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_the_Neo_Freerunner#Alternative:_using_nandwrite |
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| 22:21.35 | bernt | jc: it breaks a little bit the structure of the page knowing only dfu-util ;-) |
| 22:22.10 | bernt | one solution could to place it about dfu-util. |
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| 22:37.36 | Toaster` | Could anyone point me towards a python-elementary primer? Or maybe a good example of python code using it? Thanks |
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| 22:38.06 | rooly | woooo |
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| 22:41.15 | jc | bernt: yep.. I don't know how to structure wiki pages unfortunately... |
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| 22:42.55 | jc | bernt: maybe make a seperate pages dfu-util and nandwrite ? |
| 22:43.10 | jc | I think that would be kinda unnecessary though |
| 22:45.15 | almien | Toaster`: pythoon for what purpose? what type of code do yu want to write? |
| 22:45.30 | bernt | or you can place it at the bottom of the page ... |
| 22:45.47 | jc | bernt: ok |
| 22:46.24 | Toaster` | almien: it's for some personal interest work and I'm interested in it |
| 22:46.44 | jc | bernt: is that a minor edit? (moving a section) |
| 22:46.49 | Toaster` | though I found the code for the elementary test script, which helps. |
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| 22:47.34 | bernt | the structure at the bottom is already broken ;-) Troubleshooting should be the last Chapter I think. |
| 22:48.04 | almien | Toaster`: you found some tutorials? good stuff! |
| 22:48.22 | jc | bernt: ok so I'll move troubleshooting below it and see also to the bottom, ok ? |
| 22:49.04 | bernt | try it, its a wiki, if someone has a better idea he will change it ... |
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| 22:50.05 | jc | bernt: ok, see the latest revision |
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| 22:54.09 | Toaster` | almien: no tutorials, source code |
| 22:54.42 | Toaster` | though for a different elementary version then I have on my phone. I'll have to sort it out after dinner. I'm outta here for now. Cheers. |
| 22:56.33 | rooly | sighs |
| 22:56.38 | almien | Toaster`: ok good luck, have a nice dinner |
| 22:56.41 | rooly | seems i will no longer be using my fr as a phone |
| 22:58.17 | almien | never phoned anyone with it. who can I phone to test audio quality? |
| 22:59.23 | Wonka | almien: yourself on your land line? |
| 22:59.27 | Wonka | rooly: why? |
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| 23:00.08 | rooly | cause i've been using a crappy nokia for less than a day now and its done the phone job so reliably, its not even funny |
| 23:00.44 | rooly | ...its like a huge burden of stress is gone, wondering if my phone will work at all for the next call |
| 23:00.51 | almien | Wonka: define 'can't hear yoursself think" == phone purself to test the phone |
| 23:01.25 | jc | with my provider, I can't phone myself |
| 23:01.29 | rooly | i mean, it usually did...but there was that little voice in the back of my head |
| 23:01.46 | jc | at least I still can jack off |
| 23:01.58 | rooly | ? |
| 23:02.05 | jc | (silly joke) |
| 23:02.34 | Wonka | m |
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| 23:02.46 | Wonka | at least, the GPS and GPRS parts work |
| 23:02.58 | Wonka | those are more important for me atm |
| 23:03.26 | Wonka | although it would be nice not to need to carry a phone also |
| 23:03.47 | rooly | is probably gonna convert start using his FR as a make-shift gps device and music player |
| 23:04.09 | Wonka | gps with free moving map |
| 23:04.16 | Wonka | (tangogps, navit) |
| 23:04.33 | jc | btw. what is navit good for? I couldn't figure out |
| 23:04.38 | rooly | navit is pointless for me, since i don't have access to road maps of anywhere i am |
| 23:04.53 | jc | oh.. that would be it |
| 23:04.57 | rooly | navit is a navigation app |
| 23:05.22 | almien | ok phone yourself you just get your parents wondering why you woke them in middle of night :( |
| 23:05.26 | rooly | you give it maps, point a, and point b, it provides a graphical interface for your navigation |
| 23:05.45 | jc | and where does GPS come in ? |
| 23:05.52 | jc | does it show like 'turn left here' or something ? |
| 23:05.57 | rooly | yeah |
| 23:06.01 | jc | great :) |
| 23:06.03 | Wonka | almien: then call your freerunner from your landline |
| 23:06.05 | jc | I'd love to have road maps |
| 23:06.08 | rooly | its a navigation program |
| 23:06.23 | rooly | there are zero roadmaps for my area |
| 23:06.24 | Wonka | jc: tangogps uses bitmaps from openstreetmap.org |
| 23:06.32 | rooly | aside from proprietary gps device maps |
| 23:06.51 | Wonka | jc: you can also record tracks with it and later edit OSM maps based on those tracks |
| 23:06.51 | jc | can those be converted ? |
| 23:06.57 | rooly | tango is for location and mapping. navit is for navigation |
| 23:07.01 | Wonka | rooly: not even OSM? |
| 23:07.02 | almien | jc: to what? |
| 23:07.10 | rooly | wonka, nope |
| 23:07.13 | jc | almien: so that they can be used with tangogps |
| 23:07.19 | jc | (proprietary maps) |
| 23:07.24 | Wonka | rooly: where the F are you? |
| 23:07.26 | Dave | rooly! |
| 23:07.30 | jc | because all the others suck in my area |
| 23:07.33 | jc | incl. google maps |
| 23:07.35 | Wonka | even Gaza is being mapped... |
| 23:07.35 | rooly | i hail from southern louisiana |
| 23:07.43 | Dave | rooly, clearly you live in the middle of nowhere |
| 23:07.44 | rooly | and i am in northern backwater mississippi right now |
| 23:07.46 | Dave | or in the ocean :p |
| 23:07.48 | Dave | hahaha :D |
| 23:07.49 | jc | I'm from a village in Czech Republic |
| 23:07.52 | Dave | high-fives rooly |
| 23:07.57 | rooly | as far as osm is concerned, i do |
| 23:08.00 | rooly | highfives back |
| 23:08.10 | mwester | is surprised rooly even has cell towers nearby! |
| 23:08.11 | mwester | :P |
| 23:08.17 | Wonka | then you both need to take your FRs and record tracks whereever you go |
| 23:08.22 | Wonka | and at least upload them to OSM |
| 23:08.24 | rooly | where i come from, only 3 people have ever even heard of openmoko |
| 23:08.31 | Dave | Mwester, they probably have a few bayou repeaters :p |
| 23:08.32 | jc | you know usa isn't the only part of the world :D |
| 23:08.35 | Wonka | others can then edit maps based on your tracks |
| 23:08.44 | almien | jc: I think that tilenames are similar URL betwerrn different providers:http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Slippy_map_tilenames#Tiles |
| 23:09.00 | rooly | mwester, its not the cell thing, its that there are so few foss users around me |
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| 23:09.13 | rooly | i'm practically one in a million around here |
| 23:09.16 | mwester | Dave: with special codes for network disconnects: E_ALLIGATOR_BIT_CABLE |
| 23:09.23 | Dave | :D |
| 23:09.24 | jc | theres this little place called europe and most of it isn't mapped :/ |
| 23:09.26 | Dave | *chomp* |
| 23:09.42 | mwester | We have E_TORNADO here. |
| 23:09.51 | jc | lol |
| 23:10.10 | jc | we could have E_SOMEONE_STOLEN_CABLES |
| 23:10.18 | jc | its popular stealing copper here |
| 23:10.31 | Dave | haha yeah |
| 23:10.37 | Dave | we were just hearing about that the other night |
| 23:10.43 | mwester | Actually, the golf courses in Florida have some interesting course rules, for cases where your ball lands too close to an alligator on the course! |
| 23:10.44 | Dave | some idiots tried to steal copper from powerlines |
| 23:10.49 | jc | yes |
| 23:10.50 | Dave | and electrocuted themselves somewhere? |
| 23:10.50 | Wonka | rooly: this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=49.6416&lon=10.598&zoom=13&layers=B000FTF is a "middle of nowhere" village in germany that had a hacker camp happen on it... |
| 23:10.52 | jc | not only power line s:D |
| 23:10.53 | Dave | retards |
| 23:11.00 | jc | also manhole covers and stuff |
| 23:11.03 | Wonka | rooly: you'll notice how well it is mapped... |
| 23:11.03 | Dave | rofl |
| 23:11.10 | jc | pretty inconvinient to drive over |
| 23:11.35 | jc | its cuz scrapyard owners don't ask where you got that stuff and there are no laws for that |
| 23:11.52 | almien | jc: is that the same europe which contains UK (OSM founders), DE (OSM germans, beware), NL (OSM wins, heheh!) or are you in one of the bits we didn't reach yet? |
| 23:11.52 | Wonka | jc: what? germany is quite well mapped, i think |
| 23:11.53 | rooly | yeah, well, Wonka, i don't know any other hackers personally |
| 23:12.03 | rooly | and i'm not about to go do all that work for myself |
| 23:12.13 | jc | almien: kinda closer to the center, Czech Republic |
| 23:12.21 | rooly | since...ya know...i already know the roads |
| 23:12.56 | jc | still, you can't search for example for a nearby ATM or train station and stuff |
| 23:13.05 | jc | (yes, suprisingly, we have such facilities :D) |
| 23:13.43 | Wonka | czech rep... isn't that where "Pilsen" is? the town where they invented Real Beer? |
| 23:13.55 | jc | Wonka: yes |
| 23:14.06 | jc | Wonka: in czech the 'town' is called Plze? :) |
| 23:14.30 | Wonka | was tha a question mark or some broken letter? |
| 23:14.41 | almien | jc: looks like OSM has maybe one person in capital there: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Czech_Progress- you could consider it good or bad that you're th first one to attempt the area! |
| 23:14.44 | jc | Wonka: and theyr beer is called Pilsner Urquell or something like that |
| 23:14.58 | Wonka | sounds like it |
| 23:15.12 | jc | in czech it's Plze?sk? prazdroj I think |
| 23:15.16 | Wonka | does not drink beer at all |
| 23:15.25 | jc | me neither.. only ocassionaly |
| 23:15.30 | Wonka | and i think your non-ascii letters appear broken here |
| 23:15.54 | Wonka | my irssi usually understands utf-8 and latin1/latin9 |
| 23:15.55 | jc | damn.. I thought this was utf-8 capable, sorry |
| 23:16.00 | almien | here in UK, we have to travell hundreds of miles to reach somewere that isn't mapped |
| 23:16.11 | Wonka | almien: aka "ocean"? |
| 23:16.25 | jc | the guys on oil platforms wouldn't like that ;) |
| 23:16.39 | Dave | :) |
| 23:16.51 | Wonka | here are still some roads / dirt tracks / cement tracks and other small stuff that isnt mapped |
| 23:17.06 | jc | thats a pretty bad thing.. |
| 23:17.06 | Wonka | and anyway, there's many buildings left to map |
| 23:17.09 | Wonka | house numbers |
| 23:17.14 | jc | open source maps aren't a good idea... |
| 23:17.18 | jc | you can't rely on them.. |
| 23:17.20 | Dave | haha |
| 23:17.22 | almien | Wonka: no, there are UK cities where nobody is rich eough to own a GPS :( and we have no maps of some veyy local places |
| 23:17.26 | Dave | good for stalking! |
| 23:17.32 | jc | there are proffesional agencies for doing such stuff |
| 23:17.44 | jc | (mapping terrain) |
| 23:17.51 | jc | I beleive it was called cartography or something |
| 23:18.15 | jc | too bad those people don't contribute to OSM |
| 23:19.31 | Wonka | ack |
| 23:19.53 | jc | synflood |
| 23:19.55 | Wonka | in some countries, USA for example, such data needs to be accessible, afaik... |
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| 23:20.05 | Wonka | because the taxpayer already paid for it |
| 23:20.24 | almien | jc: just got a reply: apparently we import http://www.uhul.cz/en/ (no idea about anyone locally who's interested though...) |
| 23:20.28 | jc | here we have extremely good free webmaps comparable to google |
| 23:20.29 | Wonka | here in germany, you might have to pay for geodata |
| 23:21.01 | jc | but in gps navigations, we pay for maps |
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| 23:21.57 | almien | Wonka: just wait for them to pay contractors to produce that data and suddenly decie that it's not PD anymore.... |
| 23:22.18 | Wonka | almien: who "them"? USA? |
| 23:22.22 | Dave | hah |
| 23:22.28 | Wonka | almien: FOIA Act! |
| 23:22.34 | Wonka | er, FOI Act |
| 23:22.40 | Dave | pfft |
| 23:23.03 | jc | another pretty bad thing here: we have 'free' public transportation databases |
| 23:23.09 | Wonka | jc: assess legal status, and then map OSM from those webmaps |
| 23:23.11 | jc | as in you can download them freely and you have specs |
| 23:23.29 | jc | but only apps that can read them are proprietary (paid) |
| 23:23.44 | jc | its an ugly binary format, probably already straying a lot from the specs |
| 23:23.49 | Wonka | write your own GPL'd reader app :) |
| 23:24.18 | jc | yeah, I wanted to do that for fr recently |
| 23:24.30 | jc | but now I got my os broken so I'm investigating that... |
| 23:24.36 | almien | Wonka: governments in general, your last one seemed weirder han most. they used to be able to contract private companies to do what they used to do themselves, and because they paid someone it wasn't government, therefore wasn't public-domain? |
| 23:25.25 | Wonka | almien: hm. i'd like have an example trial fought against such stuff... |
| 23:25.33 | Wonka | almien: if i had the money... |
| 23:27.00 | Wonka | anyway, bedtime |
| 23:27.17 | almien | Wonka: never litigate against anyone who changes the law to suit their own benefits... |
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| 23:54.37 | rooly | what's the normal speed of dialup? |
| 23:54.43 | rooly | kbps |
| 23:58.35 | rooly | 56k modem achieves a throughput of what, 14-20 usually? |
