| 00:02.25 | Sargun | Canadians are rich. |
| 00:02.46 | almien | sybesis: it's all a lie and the people printing money are the biggest criminals in the business. grin and bear it ;) |
| 00:04.35 | sybesis | ahah |
| 00:05.06 | sybesis | if we start burning our money |
| 00:05.41 | sybesis | less there are money in the pocket the more it has value? |
| 00:05.47 | Zorkman | that is illegal sybesis :) |
| 00:06.08 | sybesis | accident arent illegal |
| 00:06.39 | almien | sybesis: it can only have value if you can prevent the government printing it |
| 00:07.18 | almien | unlike douglas adam's leaves |
| 00:07.24 | sybesis | hmmm |
| 00:07.28 | sybesis | then... |
| 00:07.39 | *** join/#openmoko karin (n=karin@h189n5c1o1036.bredband.skanova.com) |
| 00:07.47 | sybesis | i cant say that on irc |
| 00:08.03 | karin | How do I send stuff over bluetooth with SHR? :P |
| 00:08.22 | karin | can someone give me an example command? |
| 00:09.09 | sybesis | hmmmm does SHR use bluez? |
| 00:09.26 | rooly | yes |
| 00:09.34 | Zorkman | there was a file server bluetooth thingy on the ML a while ago |
| 00:10.15 | sybesis | then i guess unless anyone here has a specific command line for it...anything that use bluez would work |
| 00:10.38 | sybesis | i know how to connect to a usb host but i dont remember how to send files |
| 00:10.48 | sybesis | damn i'm on windows...brb |
| 00:11.27 | Zorkman | damn |
| 00:11.31 | Zorkman | just found it :) |
| 00:12.11 | *** join/#openmoko billk (n=billk@203-59-106-147.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 00:14.44 | *** join/#openmoko SQlvpapir (n=teis@0x50c60c4b.virnxx10.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 00:15.38 | karin | Zorkman: what was it? :P |
| 00:16.07 | Zorkman | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_Bluetooth#OBEX |
| 00:16.21 | SQlvpapir | this is nice app for phones :D http://www.fianceexposed.com/index.php?c=viral&m=index&id=4b9baa900fba41b4151ac0f19d0cf590 |
| 00:17.15 | *** join/#openmoko sybesis (n=sybesis@dsl10-102.express.oricom.ca) |
| 00:17.29 | karin | Zorkman: TY! |
| 00:17.34 | Zorkman | np karin |
| 00:17.54 | Zorkman | write us a nice GUI for SHR; I ask no more than that in return ;-) |
| 00:18.11 | *** part/#openmoko SQlvpapir (n=teis@0x50c60c4b.virnxx10.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 00:18.32 | Slaxxer | yea thats what we need |
| 00:19.17 | karin | Zorkman: I don't think you want a java gui for that ;) |
| 00:19.32 | Zorkman | karin: why not? |
| 00:19.35 | Zorkman | better than nothing :p |
| 00:19.43 | Zorkman | and there has been a lot of work on java on the FR lately :p |
| 00:20.01 | karin | nice, then Ill maybe write one :P |
| 00:20.08 | karin | Well now im off for bed |
| 00:20.09 | Zorkman | :D |
| 00:20.12 | karin | good night folks |
| 00:20.18 | Zorkman | night |
| 00:20.46 | *** join/#openmoko merriam__ (n=merriam@wmerriam.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 00:22.34 | Digital_Pioneer | OK, it seems the mic is too loud when I'm on speakerphone. It causes the computer on the other end (I haven't tried it with a person) to go nuts. |
| 00:23.04 | Digital_Pioneer | The computer uses voice recognition, and just keeps saying it didn't understand. I think it's getting loud background noise and assuming it's me talking. |
| 00:23.11 | Digital_Pioneer | It only happens in speakerphone. |
| 00:23.27 | Sargun | Digital_Pioneer, Dude, the Openmoko is a weapon. |
| 00:23.34 | Sargun | you call people, and speak |
| 00:23.52 | Sargun | They go insane, and kill themselves. |
| 00:23.55 | Digital_Pioneer | LOL |
| 00:25.04 | *** join/#openmoko _DerHorst (n=Horst@e176100159.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 00:41.04 | Digital_Pioneer | OK, how do I change the ringtone and SMS alert sound? |
| 00:41.50 | *** join/#openmoko RP (n=richard@93-97-173-237.zone5.bethere.co.uk) |
| 00:45.20 | orzo | ogsmd WARNING Out-of-spec GSM number type seen: 161. Please report. |
| 00:46.11 | F4t | lool release date of gta03... 2012 :D |
| 00:46.22 | F4t | phones will fly by then :) |
| 00:47.19 | orzo | my gsmhandset.state isnt getting set |
| 00:48.59 | orzo | openmoko-cdevel |
| 00:58.44 | *** join/#openmoko AntonTakk (n=AntonTak@poolofdespair.net) |
| 00:59.22 | *** join/#openmoko polymar (n=polymar@12.186.229.30) |
| 01:01.25 | *** join/#openmoko Kamping_Kaiser (n=kgoetz@gnewsense/friend/kgoetz) |
| 01:05.23 | *** join/#openmoko alphabeat (n=nick@123-243-190-207.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 01:08.04 | *** join/#openmoko muxe (n=muxe@i577B5605.versanet.de) |
| 01:12.05 | *** join/#openmoko EddieOfTheRocks (n=arcturus@S010600131090f58d.ed.shawcable.net) |
| 01:12.48 | EddieOfTheRocks | I've got the new 2008.12 openmoko running on my freerunner but I can't figure out how to get to the terminal! |
| 01:13.50 | sybesis | have you tried to scream "Open Terminal" in the mic? |
| 01:14.10 | EddieOfTheRocks | No, will that work? |
| 01:14.31 | sybesis | theres only one way to know |
| 01:14.42 | EddieOfTheRocks | That didn't work :( |
| 01:14.46 | sybesis | :( |
| 01:14.56 | muxe | :) |
| 01:15.21 | sybesis | well i was going to tell you open the terminal and write terminal |
| 01:15.24 | sybesis | hmm |
| 01:15.38 | EddieOfTheRocks | heh heh |
| 01:16.10 | EddieOfTheRocks | You haven't used this new version? |
| 01:16.40 | sybesis | to be honest i still dont have a openmoko in my hand |
| 01:16.42 | sybesis | :( |
| 01:16.47 | EddieOfTheRocks | Oh |
| 01:17.25 | EddieOfTheRocks | Hmmm, What to do.... |
| 01:17.39 | sybesis | i have to convince my father that if i buy a cheap cell phone to replace my broken one..it will probably die in one year or so |
| 01:17.43 | *** join/#openmoko kdean06 (n=Kevin@fsf/member/kdean06) |
| 01:17.51 | *** part/#openmoko kdean06 (n=Kevin@fsf/member/kdean06) |
| 01:18.08 | EddieOfTheRocks | Well, makes sense to me :) |
| 01:18.14 | *** join/#openmoko DieMumie1 (n=DieMumie@W2a5d.w.pppool.de) |
| 01:18.47 | sybesis | makes sens to me |
| 01:18.51 | sybesis | not to him |
| 01:18.53 | EddieOfTheRocks | Does anybody here know how to access the stupid terminal in the new openmoko or at least this mystical wireless gui???? |
| 01:19.18 | EddieOfTheRocks | Well, fathers can be so misunderstanding when it comes to those things |
| 01:20.07 | jonsmith1982 | EddieOfTheRocks, through usb? |
| 01:20.07 | sybesis | my guess is that you can probably edit a file that has those "links" |
| 01:20.19 | sybesis | and add manually a terminal from there |
| 01:20.42 | EddieOfTheRocks | jonsmith1982: I'm out of luck as far as that goes for now. I was hoping to configure the wifi on the device, and access it through there. |
| 01:21.01 | jonsmith1982 | out of luck? |
| 01:21.02 | EddieOfTheRocks | Rrr, why would they all of a sudden eliminate that link |
| 01:21.18 | sybesis | i admit its kind of stupid |
| 01:21.25 | EddieOfTheRocks | I don't have access to a computer that was those drivers compiled into the kernel |
| 01:21.32 | EddieOfTheRocks | usb network drivers that is |
| 01:21.38 | jonsmith1982 | ah right. |
| 01:22.28 | EddieOfTheRocks | This no secret sequence like ctrl-alt-f1 on a computer? |
| 01:22.38 | EddieOfTheRocks | s/this/there is/ |
| 01:23.11 | sybesis | what does ctrl+alt+f1 do? |
| 01:23.43 | EddieOfTheRocks | Well, it brings you to a raw terminal |
| 01:23.44 | sybesis | you mean hotkey? |
| 01:23.54 | jonsmith1982 | it will be difficult to do without any usb |
| 01:24.01 | sybesis | holy shit thats true |
| 01:24.02 | sybesis | but |
| 01:24.06 | EddieOfTheRocks | Argh, this will be the death of me. |
| 01:24.10 | sybesis | my fedora box doesnt |
| 01:24.13 | sybesis | D: |
| 01:24.20 | sybesis | omg |
| 01:24.22 | jonsmith1982 | i think the only way would be to modify the rootfs. |
| 01:24.32 | sybesis | ctrl+alt+f1 on fedora is the gui |
| 01:24.49 | EddieOfTheRocks | k, ctrl-alt-f2 |
| 01:25.28 | sybesis | i guess there is no terminal like that |
| 01:25.33 | EddieOfTheRocks | rrrr, stupid thing. Now I have to beg an IT guy to let me recompile a kernel |
| 01:25.37 | sybesis | unless you have an extern keyboard |
| 01:25.48 | mwester | put a proper image on the phone. |
| 01:26.14 | mwester | see the wiki for the urls to other images, i would suggest the Qt Extended or the SHR distros. |
| 01:26.49 | mwester | But I hear that for those who like the Om 2008.x stuff, a less-horrible version is called "fdom". |
| 01:27.34 | EddieOfTheRocks | I just want something that will give me a phone, work with the GPS/WIFI, easily sync my evolution contacts/calendar. |
| 01:27.45 | EddieOfTheRocks | Which would you suggest for that? |
| 01:28.54 | mwester | one of the 2010 images |
| 01:29.00 | EddieOfTheRocks | heh heh |
| 01:29.06 | mwester | obviously, you'll have to be somewhat patient. |
| 01:29.38 | EddieOfTheRocks | Well, okay, which image is moving in that direction? |
| 01:29.45 | EddieOfTheRocks | or project I should say |
| 01:29.47 | mwester | SHR |
| 01:30.10 | mwester | actually SHR/FSO (FSO is the underlying framework upon which the SHR UI is built) |
| 01:31.02 | mwester | Qt Extended may be going in that direction,but they've not been very active lately -- the big missing bit there is the GPS, and I have no idea if they can sync or not. |
| 01:31.14 | mwester | Android is, well, proprietary, and doesn't yet work even as a phone. |
| 01:31.29 | mwester | 2008.x is an evolutionary dead-end. |
| 01:32.23 | mwester | Debian is fun for those who want an itty-bitty desktop that "oh by the way" also can do some phone-like features. Cool, but the focus is not phone. |
| 01:33.27 | mwester | But no matter what, the current situation is that no distros have working wifi, and there are some fundamental hardware problems with the phone part that are yet outstanding issues. |
| 01:33.42 | EddieOfTheRocks | Hardware problems? |
| 01:33.47 | EddieOfTheRocks | I don't like the sound of that |
| 01:34.05 | jonsmith1982 | any news on the mass fix for the buzz issue? |
| 01:34.39 | swetland | out of curiosity, what does "Android is proprietary" imply here? I mean given that it is available in source (Apache2,BSD,GPLv2,etc licenses) and you can do what you like with it, what's the issue? |
| 01:35.42 | *** join/#openmoko ChandleWEi (n=chandle@210.13.121.62) |
| 01:35.45 | *** part/#openmoko ChandleWEi (n=chandle@210.13.121.62) |
| 01:35.48 | Slaxxer | using 2008.12 now as a usable phone |
| 01:36.17 | EddieOfTheRocks | Slaxxer: Really, what functionality are you getting out of it? |
| 01:36.26 | Slaxxer | missed calls |
| 01:36.31 | Slaxxer | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:36.44 | EddieOfTheRocks | what about other stuff, sms? |
| 01:36.46 | Slaxxer | outgoing calls |
| 01:36.47 | EddieOfTheRocks | gps? |
| 01:37.00 | EddieOfTheRocks | contacts? |
| 01:37.04 | EddieOfTheRocks | calendar? |
| 01:37.13 | Slaxxer | i havent had much time to try gps |
| 01:37.29 | Slaxxer | contacts work an dial |
| 01:37.43 | Zorkman | EddieOfTheRocks: gps works very well |
| 01:38.07 | EddieOfTheRocks | What about calendar? |
| 01:38.09 | Slaxxer | calender not installed |
| 01:38.10 | mwester | swetland: that's been discussed all over the place. Just because the source is available doesn't make it a truely open environment. |
| 01:38.26 | Slaxxer | suspend is working for me |
| 01:38.38 | Zorkman | for me suspend is also working great (SHR) |
| 01:38.40 | EddieOfTheRocks | What about wifi? |
| 01:38.51 | Slaxxer | i try |
| 01:39.14 | Slaxxer | no default terminal |
| 01:39.25 | Zorkman | Slaxxer: depends on which distro |
| 01:39.43 | EddieOfTheRocks | Yeah, how does one access the terminal on a fresh install? |
| 01:39.51 | swetland | mwester: news to me. |
| 01:40.12 | Zorkman | EddieOfTheRocks: most distributions have a terminal standard installed |
| 01:40.39 | Zorkman | (SHR, FSO, 2007.2, Qtext -broken in last 4.4.3, but hypnotise made an immage with it) |
| 01:40.41 | EddieOfTheRocks | I just did a 2008.12 install and I can't figure how to open the termainl |
| 01:40.46 | swetland | how does it fail to be "truly open". Is there a checklist somewhere for true openness? |
| 01:40.49 | Zorkman | if you don'thave a terminal: just ssh in and opkg install it |
| 01:41.08 | EddieOfTheRocks | Well, I need to setup the wifi to get into it |
| 01:41.10 | mwester | swetland: ok. well, the best way to understand the technical non-openness of the environment would be to take on a project to port any of the existing GPS applications (tangogps, for example) to run under Android on the GTA02. |
| 01:41.18 | Zorkman | EddieOfTheRocks: jsut plugin the usb cable... |
| 01:41.24 | EddieOfTheRocks | rrrrr |
| 01:41.36 | swetland | so it's not open because it does not provide identical APIs to other platforms? |
| 01:41.43 | EddieOfTheRocks | I don't have access to a computer that has a gpsnet enabled kernel |
| 01:41.53 | mwester | swetland: but frankly you sound like you want to argue about the meaning of "open". I don't waste my time with that sort of bullshit. |
| 01:42.23 | raster | EddieOfTheRocks: usbnet |
| 01:42.23 | Zorkman | EddieOfTheRocks: vmware windows on it :po |
| 01:42.27 | raster | EddieOfTheRocks: u dont need to set up wifi |
| 01:42.43 | EddieOfTheRocks | rrr |
| 01:42.48 | swetland | you're welcome not to. I would consider claiming something that's fully source available under normal open source licenses is "not truly open" or "proprietary" could also be considered "bullshit", but maybe that's just me ^^ |
| 01:42.49 | mwester | swetland: But if I'm wrong, and you truely feel that it's "open" then take on my challenge, and tell the community when you have a version of tangogps running under android. :) |
| 01:42.52 | raster | EddieOfTheRocks: wtf? no usbnet? |
| 01:43.05 | EddieOfTheRocks | Fine I'll re-compile my kernel. What a hassle |
| 01:43.07 | swetland | I have no idea what tangogps is. I'm unclear why it matters here. |
| 01:43.40 | raster | has gotten rather sick of the word "open" |
| 01:43.58 | swetland | it's a rather excessively loaded term at times, to be sure |
| 01:43.59 | Zorkman | doesn't care if some people call it open or not |
| 01:44.07 | mwester | swetland: because I'm talking "practical" with a real-world example of a bit of source code that is considered portable and already runs under multiple distros on the same hardware. You seem to be talking "lawyer" and want to argue licensing. I don't do licenses, I do code. |
| 01:44.17 | swetland | I also so code |
| 01:44.21 | mwester | so port it. |
| 01:44.23 | swetland | s/so/do/ |
| 01:44.25 | mwester | tell me when you're done. |
| 01:44.29 | swetland | why? I don't need it |
| 01:44.34 | swetland | I don't even know what it is |
| 01:44.35 | mwester | bullshit answer. |
| 01:44.45 | mwester | how about porting xterm. |
| 01:44.51 | Slaxxer | just do it for us |
| 01:44.57 | swetland | I just don't understand why "some random app I like does not run on platform X" means that platform is closed or proprietary |
| 01:45.00 | Slaxxer | for we |
| 01:45.16 | swetland | there's a terminal app included in the system source |
| 01:45.20 | cjb | mwester: it sounds like neither of you are talking licenses. it sounds like you're saying that something that runs Java apps isn't "open" because you don't like Java. |
| 01:45.31 | mwester | cjb: java is fine. |
| 01:45.42 | swetland | I mean I have no problem if you want to say "I think it's useless because it doesn't provide X/GTK/whatever" |
| 01:45.49 | EddieOfTheRocks | Man, how I have to figure out how to use this stupid usbnet thing. ifconfig usb0 turns up nothing. ARGH |
| 01:45.54 | mwester | cjb: the lack of the standard OS libs and lack of any support for ui's and access to hardware is what is non-open. |
| 01:45.55 | swetland | that's perfectly reasonable. |
| 01:46.08 | mwester | cjb: the device runs a modified Linux kernel, and that's about as open as it is. |
| 01:46.16 | Zorkman | just to get this right: will it never be possible to run tangogps on android (because it isn't java and emulating it would consume too much) ? |
| 01:46.16 | raster | hi-5's mwester over code |
| 01:46.31 | swetland | so open means "linux and X and gtk". now I understand. ^^ |
| 01:46.36 | cjb | mwester: right, so what swetland just said. there's certainly a big difference between a stock Linux distro and something as self-referential as Android. |
| 01:46.54 | cjb | Zorkman: yes, that's probably correct. |
| 01:47.09 | cjb | Android says "if you want to run on Android, then write a Java app that specificially conforms to the Android API". |
| 01:47.13 | *** join/#openmoko xiangfu (n=xiangfu@203.187.169.35) |
| 01:47.28 | swetland | actually there's no reason one couldn't support X/GTK/etc side by side. it's certainly not a priority for the team working on it at Google. |
| 01:47.36 | Slaxxer | wifi works on 2008.12 |
| 01:47.53 | cjb | that's very different to running standard X/GTK stuff. but it's not "closed".. "closed-minded" might fit. |
| 01:48.31 | EddieOfTheRocks | the USB Networking wiki page is pretty ambiguous as to what drivers need to be compiled in |
| 01:48.33 | raster | swetland: i'm actually disappointed on the "lets do a new windowing system" thing of android instead of using a well known standard thats easy to develop for |
| 01:48.50 | swetland | we have limited resources and our goal includes helping people ship successful mobile phones based on the platform. While I'm sure this is blasphemy in these parts, X11 and GTK were never considered priorities to accomplish that. |
| 01:49.17 | mwester | considers all this argument to be nothing more than "Clintoning" -- arguing about the definition of "it". |
| 01:49.35 | raster | drags monica into the room |
| 01:49.39 | Slaxxer | thet did a good job so far on 2008.12 |
| 01:49.44 | mwester | Ah, so the truth comes out - swetland is an Android. |
| 01:49.58 | mwester | sorry, wouldn't have bothered engaging had I known. |
| 01:50.01 | swetland | proprietary has some very definite meanings involving exclusion and lack of access |
| 01:50.21 | Sargun_Screen | raster: who is monica? |
| 01:50.23 | swetland | apologies for secretly ircing under my given name. |
| 01:50.33 | raster | Sargun_Screen: see mwester's comment |
| 01:50.34 | raster | :) |
| 01:50.40 | mwester | it's like arguing GPL vs Apache licensing with Stallman. |
| 01:50.52 | raster | shudders |
| 01:50.55 | Slaxxer | microsoft is in the processs of infiltraiting an destroying/consuming open source i think |
| 01:50.57 | EddieOfTheRocks | Now I have to restart this computer with this new kernel. MAN |
| 01:56.01 | *** join/#openmoko Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) |
| 01:57.27 | raster | swetland: dont get it wrong - i'd just like to see andorid play along with everyone else |
| 01:57.36 | raster | having a "yet another display system" to code for |
| 01:57.43 | raster | that doesnt run natively on my desktop |
| 01:58.05 | raster | and that people who have done deskto development for years have to go learn... seems a little alienating to me |
| 01:58.16 | raster | it's be nice inf android played along with x11 |
| 01:58.20 | raster | err it'd |
| 01:58.42 | swetland | I think that's where there's a fundamental difference in design philosophy -- we assume embedded is embedded and desktop is desktop and are not sure we want to bring all the desktop technologies along just because the desktop has them |
| 01:58.56 | swetland | hell, we may be wrong. wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about something. |
| 01:59.01 | raster | :) |
| 01:59.12 | swetland | in which case we'll evolve or we'll die off |
| 01:59.17 | raster | bringing x tho and the idea of a wm etc. i dont see as foreign to embeded |
| 01:59.20 | Digital_Pioneer | How do I change the ringtone on this thing?? |
| 01:59.40 | raster | for a long time i thought it might be better being "different" |
| 01:59.49 | raster | thats a big reason for an fb enigne in evas |
| 01:59.54 | swetland | I'm not sure I agree with X as the lowest level abstraction -- and don't some of the fancier new hw accel X systems sit on top of GL? |
| 02:00.10 | raster | but over time i've come to go "well.. it doesnt buy ou much - and loses you more. costs effort and time" |
| 02:00.23 | raster | gl doesnt handle multilpe apps |
| 02:00.29 | raster | gl is not a windowing system |
| 02:00.32 | raster | it is simply a drawing api |
| 02:00.44 | raster | hell xgl is an xserver using gl to draw |
| 02:00.58 | raster | in this case gl is simply the driver layer |
| 02:00.58 | swetland | we're working with silicon vendors to ensure multiple context support is in so we have use it both in apps and in the compositing engine / window manager |
| 02:01.13 | mjr | Just because something isn't proprietary doesn't mean it's very open either. I mean, sure, the gimp file format is free and all, but how "open" is it to have a somewhat sanitized dump of internals there with the recommendation not to use it with basically anything else. And that's pretty much how I view the qtopia and android and all other "yay let's do our own thing" window systems that don't really exclude, but don't really include either |
| 02:01.25 | swetland | because we'd like to be able to use GL as a hw render path for apps rendering into windows and for combining windows, etc |
| 02:01.43 | *** join/#openmoko EddieOfTheRocks (n=arcturus@S010600131090f58d.ed.shawcable.net) |
| 02:01.48 | raster | xgl + xcomposite + xdmagae |
| 02:01.48 | raster | done |
| 02:02.01 | swetland | mjr: I seriously wasn't trying to start some huge flamewar about openness. I just was interested in what specifically was getting us branded with "proprietary" |
| 02:02.07 | raster | (well the short version - the nitty details of course are a longer story - but its the same long story regardless) |
| 02:03.15 | mjr | swetland, yes well, there's the single vendor control aspect |
| 02:03.40 | raster | technically android doesnt accomplish anything x can't |
| 02:03.57 | raster | of course you simplified thnigs by not dragging along a bunch of technology you may not currently want |
| 02:04.00 | swetland | mjr: nothing stops somebody from taking the code and running with it. I mean we're moving day to day development out into the open and if we suck, but the code is useful, people will fork. so it goes. |
| 02:04.07 | raster | but there will come a time.. when you will want it :) |
| 02:04.16 | mwester | swetland: "if you have to ask, it's not open" --- you can argue the "legalese" all day long, and the lawyers may agree that something is, in the end, "open" -- but it's the community that determines the reputation. And right now, the inability to port common, everyday apps that run on linux. solaris, cygus, or even on Windows makes it, for all practical non-lawyer terms, closed. |
| 02:04.51 | swetland | mwester: at this point I think there's no need for us to continue this discussion. Thank you for sharing your views. |
| 02:05.08 | mjr | "you can fork if you don't like it", well, it rings to me a freedom bell, not an openness bell |
| 02:05.25 | raster | swetland: if you guys are thinking of doing an x11 port" of andorid's windowing layer.. tell me... :) |
| 02:05.28 | mwester | swetland: you're so gracious. |
| 02:05.32 | swetland | but that's true of every project out there |
| 02:05.50 | swetland | that's what open source gives you -- no obligation to keep going one way if you want to go another |
| 02:05.55 | mjr | XFree86 was pretty closed like that, while being free. 'lo, they forked it, and the fork took over, and was more open |
| 02:05.58 | swetland | (well, one of many things) |
| 02:06.30 | *** join/#openmoko Defiant-_ (i=erik@c202244.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 02:06.32 | Sargun_Screen | The fork has bugs elike no other. |
| 02:06.49 | mjr | (though at least XFree86 always followed an open standard, so it's not a perfect analogy) |
| 02:07.27 | Tm_T | mjr: indeed |
| 02:08.30 | swetland | raster: we'd be more likely to support X on top of our compositer instead of the other way around. But the compositer can work against any reasonable drawing surface, so it could be stacked the other way as well. Full integration with an external window manager (where the platform window management system wasn't working out window ordering, etc) would be trickier |
| 02:09.33 | raster | swetland: the 2nd is what i'd like :) |
| 02:09.49 | swetland | I am shocked, shocked to hear you say this. ^^ |
| 02:09.54 | raster | ehehhehee |
| 02:09.55 | raster | :) |
| 02:10.12 | swetland | I bet somebody will do it, given time. |
| 02:10.20 | raster | :) |
| 02:10.31 | Digital_Pioneer | Does NOBODY know how to set the *ringtone* on a Freerunner? It's virtually the most customizable phone in the world, and no-one can set the ringtone?? |
| 02:10.32 | raster | also c apis for android |
| 02:10.36 | raster | at least the lower levels |
| 02:10.41 | swetland | unless we fail spectacularly, in which case nobody will care, but somebody may *still* do it because people spend a lot of effort emulating random dead playforms |
| 02:10.44 | Zorkman | Digital_Pioneer: which distro.? |
| 02:10.49 | Digital_Pioneer | Zorkman: SHR |
| 02:10.54 | swetland | raster: that's in the works |
| 02:10.57 | Zorkman | it's in the wiki |
| 02:11.04 | raster | swetland: thumbs up for that |
| 02:11.07 | Digital_Pioneer | Zorkman: I can't find it anywhere. |
| 02:11.18 | Zorkman | Digital_Pioneer: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FSO_ringtones |
| 02:11.25 | raster | if you can do that - i might be willing to put some time into doing api replacements for the windowing-level stuff |
| 02:11.28 | raster | that run on x |
| 02:11.40 | raster | so kind of a "meet me half-way" |
| 02:11.42 | swetland | first step will be NDK (native dev kit), providing everything anyone would want for building and bundling .so libs in your android app to extend your java stuff with native code) |
| 02:11.48 | raster | but it'd be on my "sometime later" list |
| 02:11.54 | mwester | And don't forget the use of a standard full libc as well. |
| 02:12.00 | swetland | that's being cleaned up and will be out there before long |
| 02:12.01 | Zorkman | Digital_Pioneer: just look at the milestone 3 way, that is what you need |
| 02:12.12 | Digital_Pioneer | Zorkman: OK, thanks. :) |
| 02:12.15 | Zorkman | np |
| 02:12.49 | Zorkman | night all, tomorrow I'm expecting a fully working kernel, 5days batt life and tangogps on Android ;-) |
| 02:12.53 | Digital_Pioneer | Zorkman: What's this .sid file? I've never seen that before... |
| 02:12.57 | swetland | longer term, I'd expect to do sorta game-level full native apps (provide windowing, gl, audio, input), then expand that to start exposing higher level services (remoted access to the various storage/data apis, etc, etc) |
| 02:13.21 | Zorkman | Digital_Pioneer: it's music from commodore 64 |
| 02:13.29 | Digital_Pioneer | Weird. |
| 02:13.33 | raster | swetland: thats all i'd ask for really |
| 02:13.38 | Zorkman | yeah it's retro stuff |
| 02:13.43 | swetland | zorkman: I can give you 10 days network-on standby, data not active, on G1/ADP1 |
| 02:13.47 | raster | swetland: well the rest would be nice - but the lower levels would make ti easier to integarte stuff |
| 02:14.00 | swetland | raster: yup. that's why we're prioritizing it that way |
| 02:14.01 | Zorkman | swetland: yeah, but i want to use it as a phone ;-) |
| 02:14.10 | swetland | zorkman: G1/ADP1 works great as a phone |
| 02:14.26 | Zorkman | yeah, but I don't have a G1; and do have a FR |
| 02:14.30 | swetland | I've used mine since months before ship back when the baseband was crazy rocky. |
| 02:14.47 | Zorkman | and i like my FR, it just needs some serious pimping by kernel guys, some hw mods and some genuine raster-eyecandy |
| 02:16.11 | Sargun_Screen | I don't like the the G |
| 02:16.17 | Sargun_Screen | G1 |
| 02:16.40 | mwester | uhoh - Sargun_Screen you'll end up on swetland's shitlist too. |
| 02:16.50 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * r7a57b235cf9d 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/ (4 files in 3 dirs): |
| 02:16.50 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: ogsmd: Add support for AcT and remove duplicate plusCREG |
| 02:16.50 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: Modems that support more than just GPRS will have an additional number |
| 02:16.50 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: identifying the network access type in +COPS, +CREG and +CGREG. |
| 02:16.50 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * rf9638c6abc0c 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/ (3 files in 2 dirs): ogsmd: Make ucs2hexToUnicode into a codec (gsm_ucs2) |
| 02:16.55 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * re8ec83e4b4e9 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/ (4 files in 2 dirs): |
| 02:16.58 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: ogsmd: Charsets are now per modem |
| 02:17.00 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: Some modems encode *all* strings in ucs2 if you change the charset. This |
| 02:17.02 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: allows us to specify the different charsets used for different commands. |
| 02:17.04 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: All commands sending or receiving strings as parameters now need to |
| 02:17.06 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: encode and decode these strings with the corresponding charset. |
| 02:17.07 | EddieOfTheRocks | does the 2008.12 have a easy method of turning the wifi module on/off? |
| 02:17.23 | swetland | mwester: why? not everyone likes the hardware. that doesn't offend me at all. |
| 02:17.40 | raster | i do have to say the g1 is less offensive than the fr hw-wise :) |
| 02:17.54 | Tm_T | raster: indeed |
| 02:17.57 | raster | but i dont have a g1 |
| 02:18.00 | swetland | some people find it too large, really don't want the keyboard, etc |
| 02:18.00 | mwester | EddieOfTheRocks: that requires a very new kernel -- if your kernel is still the old 2.6.24 kernel, it can't turn on/off the wifi. |
| 02:18.18 | raster | but by the same token - the fr is simply a "does it run" tester for me |
| 02:18.26 | raster | no way i have any hopes of gettign performance out of it |
| 02:18.30 | EddieOfTheRocks | mwester: I see, so once it's enabled, it stays on? |
| 02:18.49 | mwester | EddieOfTheRocks: I'm afraid so. But it gets much better with the newer kernel. |
| 02:18.49 | raster | EddieOfTheRocks: wifi driver has all sorts of niggly bugs |
| 02:18.57 | Zorkman | raster: have you tried a G1 and do you expect far better performance from t? |
| 02:19.00 | raster | thats why wifi signal doesnt change when u turn it off |
| 02:19.10 | raster | wifi device stays active and reports > 100% signal |
| 02:19.20 | EddieOfTheRocks | well that sucks |
| 02:19.23 | raster | Zorkman: i've played with one - but i've read the tech specs |
| 02:19.31 | EddieOfTheRocks | So would upgrading my kernel fix that? |
| 02:19.35 | raster | just the case deisgn + kbd is "less offensive" |
| 02:19.44 | raster | tho.. that little raised end of the g1 is just stupid |
| 02:19.53 | raster | (sorry - need to be honest) |
| 02:19.57 | swetland | so many people hate the chin |
| 02:20.05 | raster | itjust feels like somoene lent on the mould when it was made |
| 02:20.07 | raster | and went "oops" |
| 02:20.08 | raster | :) |
| 02:20.18 | swetland | I'm not an ID guy. You're not going to upset me by hating on the ID. |
| 02:20.19 | raster | but it does give it some character |
| 02:20.24 | raster | and its unique |
| 02:20.26 | Zorkman | hmmm haven't felt a G1, but i personally like the FR is some aspects of it design (look/feel) |
| 02:20.48 | raster | the fold-out screen on the arm feels "flimsy" to me |
| 02:20.53 | swetland | does the FR have a capacitive touchpanel? or resistive with stylus? |
| 02:20.59 | raster | but other than those 2 things - the g1 is rather un-offensive |
| 02:21.06 | raster | and thats pretty good considering the state of the market |
| 02:21.07 | raster | :) |
| 02:21.13 | Zorkman | swetland: resistive |
| 02:21.20 | swetland | raster: there are a lot of really, really awful phones out there, this is true |
| 02:21.23 | raster | swetland: resistive and no stylus |
| 02:21.27 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07specs * r01cf08d99071 10/ (2 files in 2 dirs): |
| 02:21.27 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: otapi: Add act property to GSM.Network.ListProviders and GetStatus |
| 02:21.27 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: This adds a field to show the network access type (GSM, UMTS, ...) |
| 02:21.56 | raster | (sorry the afterthought included laserpointer pen doesnt count - if you dont include a stylus bay - then its not meant for a stylus) |
| 02:22.02 | raster | the ts is awful on the fr |
| 02:22.11 | raster | it is intended for a stylus hw-wise |
| 02:22.17 | raster | but the whole phone design says "finger" |
| 02:22.22 | raster | but u have to press realyl hard |
| 02:22.28 | raster | to keep it "pressed down" |
| 02:22.40 | swetland | the three things I would change about dram/G1 if I had a chance to go back in time and shout "wtf are you doing" at us back then: |
| 02:22.40 | raster | its as u'd expect - highly innacurate when used with a finger |
| 02:22.50 | swetland | - include a gauge IC for accurate battery metering |
| 02:22.57 | swetland | - dpad instead of trackball |
| 02:23.05 | swetland | - dpad on the keyboard plane, not on the chin |
| 02:23.06 | raster | hmm |
| 02:23.09 | raster | the trackball is cute |
| 02:23.13 | raster | i'd ADD a dpad |
| 02:23.17 | raster | around the trackball |
| 02:23.41 | swetland | that starts getting awfully busy (mechanically it would not fit in that design) |
| 02:23.52 | *** join/#openmoko GunsNRose (n=GunsNRos@222.212.60.66) |
| 02:23.54 | mwester | EddieOfTheRocks: I don't run the 2008.x distro, so I cannot say if it can accomodate the API changes introduced with the newer kernel. So if you are able to upgrade, you may perhaps find that some of the apps will not be able to work correclty. (or perhaps all will be fine, depends if the distro team made the changes to accomodate then new kernel) |
| 02:24.07 | alphaone | okay, I broke enough today |
| 02:24.09 | alphaone | good night |
| 02:24.20 | EddieOfTheRocks | mwester: What do you run? |
| 02:24.33 | raster | swetland: sure -0 busy, but useful |
| 02:24.35 | raster | :) |
| 02:24.35 | Zorkman | good night alphaone |
| 02:24.37 | mwester | Everything except 2008.x -- but mostly Qt Extended, and SHR right now. |
| 02:24.51 | EddieOfTheRocks | Does the wifi work on SHR? |
| 02:25.00 | swetland | anyway, we should see some variety in hw in 2009. hopefully make some more people happy |
| 02:25.12 | mwester | No different than any other distro based on the 2.6.24 kernel. |
| 02:25.15 | raster | swetland: more variety than openmoko :) |
| 02:25.26 | swetland | and hopefully make some other designs available like the ADP1, unlocked, eng bootloader |
| 02:25.34 | SpeedEvil | sighs. |
| 02:25.39 | swetland | is openmoko the software stack or the hardware family or the company? |
| 02:25.45 | swetland | I've always been fuzzy on this |
| 02:25.45 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 02:25.57 | SpeedEvil | all three. |
| 02:25.57 | raster | ahhaha |
| 02:26.10 | swetland | well that explains my confusion |
| 02:26.17 | swetland | and clears things up (in a way) |
| 02:26.22 | raster | om is a "Flavor" of openembedded - ie a distro customised for the openmoko devices |
| 02:26.28 | SpeedEvil | sighs. |
| 02:26.30 | swetland | aaaah |
| 02:26.31 | raster | openmoko inc. is the company |
| 02:26.50 | raster | colloquially a lot of people refer to the freerunenr or gta01 (neo1973) as "openmoko phones" |
| 02:26.55 | raster | as they are made by openmoko |
| 02:26.56 | SpeedEvil | wants to rewind back to 2007, and have another try at the whole OM thing. |
| 02:27.00 | raster | but that is technically incorrect |
| 02:27.05 | swetland | I see, so suggesting that somebody might port "openmoko" to something like the ADP1 might be considered offensive? |
| 02:27.11 | EddieOfTheRocks | How does one make ssh available from the wifi interface? |
| 02:27.12 | SpeedEvil | swetland: nope |
| 02:27.14 | raster | as its freerunner (gta02) and neo1973 (gta01) as product names (names of phones) |
| 02:27.36 | SpeedEvil | swetland: openmoko is the distribution - but also the company name and hardware supplier |
| 02:27.52 | SpeedEvil | swetland: you can run openmoko - the distribution - on any hardware you can convince it to run on. |
| 02:27.59 | mwester | EddieOfTheRocks: you have to edit /etc/defaults/something-or-other-to-do-with-dropbear --- it'll be obvious when you find it. It restricts the SSH to the USB connection for security reasons. |
| 02:28.04 | swetland | it might be neat to see what it's like on a somewhat snappier cpu with a UMTS radio |
| 02:28.16 | raster | swetland: no - not at all. for example - i happen to re-use the openmoko distro (which frankly is very close to angstrom) and oe but build my own os images that i run on my n800, freerunner, sharp c760 and palm treo650 |
| 02:28.44 | swetland | the bimodal device may be a headache to deal with, though I guess one could run always-in-landscape or whatnot |
| 02:28.59 | raster | wouldnt be too hard |
| 02:29.08 | raster | just rotate |
| 02:29.19 | raster | u'd of course need customising for the bits and pieces |
| 02:29.53 | mwester | hopes to aquire an ADP1 to work on getting the FSO/SHR stuff running on it. |
| 02:30.01 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 02:30.28 | swetland | fso/shr? |
| 02:31.31 | mwester | One of the distros that run on the Openmoko devices, with early support for some other platforms as well. It's the "new" direction for openmoko-the-company, who is sponsoring some of the development. |
| 02:31.32 | raster | adp1? |
| 02:31.48 | mwester | ADP1 (if I have the acronym right) is the developers version of the G1. |
| 02:31.53 | raster | aaah |
| 02:31.54 | swetland | sorry, android developer phone one |
| 02:32.01 | raster | that one |
| 02:32.06 | raster | that'd be interesting |
| 02:32.10 | mwester | very. |
| 02:32.12 | swetland | G1 and ADP1 are both htc dream, just different paint/plastics |
| 02:32.13 | raster | are all the drivers open? |
| 02:32.23 | EddieOfTheRocks | Something tells me I'm not swapping out my crappy old phone for the freerunner full time quite yet. |
| 02:32.25 | swetland | all the kernel drivers are GPLv2 and available |
| 02:32.39 | raster | how much is done in userspace that isn't? |
| 02:32.42 | swetland | stuff that's *not* open (please to be griping at htc and qualcomm -- we're working on improving this in the future): |
| 02:32.44 | raster | i know the gl isnt open |
| 02:32.48 | raster | (boo!) |
| 02:32.55 | mwester | EddieOfTheRocks: :( I hope nobody represented that you could do that just yet. That's still a bit off in the future. (not too far, I hope) |
| 02:33.11 | swetland | - htc ril (radio interface layer) library provides glue between the AT control channel and our radio api. probably not horrible to reverse engineer |
| 02:33.22 | swetland | - libhdl (opengl es library) |
| 02:33.30 | EddieOfTheRocks | Well, I was more interested in the development side of things, but there was a lingering hope :) |
| 02:33.35 | raster | ewww |
| 02:33.37 | raster | radio too eh? |
| 02:33.44 | raster | now that sucketh |
| 02:33.51 | mwester | EddieOfTheRocks: Lots to be done on the development side! |
| 02:33.54 | swetland | - libgps glue layer between qualcomm rpc and sane compass apis (this will be fixed in a future software update) |
| 02:34.00 | Tm_T | raster: sure, 3G stuff, it's so secret! (;) |
| 02:34.03 | raster | oh god gps too? |
| 02:34.05 | raster | booo! |
| 02:34.06 | raster | :( |
| 02:34.18 | SpeedEvil | The radio layer - is this including the 3G stack? |
| 02:34.25 | swetland | libgps is like 5kb. there's a legal issue with an API (I shit you not) we're working on it |
| 02:34.31 | swetland | the 3g stack runs on another core |
| 02:34.34 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 02:34.49 | EddieOfTheRocks | Anybody need a C++ programmers help? I'm currently only working part time, my lastest project is http://fastcgipp.com |
| 02:35.01 | swetland | the interface is a virtual serial channel (/dev/ttySMD0) that speaks AT, and 3 virtual ethernet devices (/dev/rmnet[012]) for packet transport |
| 02:35.34 | swetland | there is a library provided by htc that sits between the high level radio abstraction (which you probably don't want anyway) and the AT channel (superset of the GSM/UMTS standard commands) |
| 02:35.44 | mwester | EddieOfTheRocks: check out the SHR project -- it's mainly python, but there is some need for C and C++ IIRC. The devs hang about on #openmoko-cdevel, the topic there has the wiki and other info. |
| 02:36.09 | EddieOfTheRocks | mwester: I'll check it out, thanks! |
| 02:36.22 | swetland | I'd expect somebody will snoop the at channel traffic, sort out the htc proprietary gunk, and get on with their lives. for future projects we hope we can get a fully open source ril. |
| 02:37.19 | mwester | notes that much of the calypso has been reverse engineered in a similar fashion. |
| 02:37.49 | swetland | I think it's stupid that somebody will have to do this, but there's only so much braindamage I can prevent per product cycle, unfortunately |
| 02:38.36 | raster | swetland: yeah. i'd say that gps anr radio (gsm) should really not have any reason to be closed |
| 02:38.38 | swetland | we're working very hard to reduce the proprietary userspace bits for the standard platform on msm7k to 1 (I don't think we'll ever get AMD/ATI to open source the GL library) |
| 02:38.52 | swetland | the gps thing is really really dumb. we're getting it fixed. |
| 02:38.53 | EddieOfTheRocks | So, what is the structure regarding SHR vs these 2008.x builds? What's the future? Which one sees the most active development? |
| 02:38.56 | raster | for 3g/gsm 99% of the crap is on the gsm module subsystem anyway on a separate cpu with its own os/firmware |
| 02:39.06 | raster | all they are doing is hiding how to talk to it in detail |
| 02:39.08 | swetland | raster: yes, exactly |
| 02:39.15 | raster | not the commands themselves really |
| 02:39.19 | raster | as the at commands are documented |
| 02:39.31 | raster | just the transport layer - and hiding that is just stupid |
| 02:39.34 | swetland | well vendors do add their own extensions, but the core stuff is a spec |
| 02:39.34 | raster | gps is similr |
| 02:39.40 | swetland | the transport actually is not hidden |
| 02:39.43 | swetland | it's a tty devices |
| 02:40.01 | swetland | s/devices/device/ |
| 02:40.04 | raster | well yeah - but how those devices are xposes (ie between device and hw registeros/interrupts/io) |
| 02:40.13 | swetland | that's all open source |
| 02:40.14 | raster | are exposed |
| 02:40.25 | raster | oh that is open? |
| 02:40.29 | swetland | the whole shared memory signaling / driver / etc is open |
| 02:40.38 | swetland | been out in the public eye for almost a year prior to ship |
| 02:40.47 | raster | so as such talking at commands will work just fine |
| 02:40.53 | mjr | does sound better than I expected, on the whole... |
| 02:41.03 | swetland | the only closed bit is this little library that adapts from "initiate a call" to whatever at chatter the modem likes |
| 02:41.25 | raster | ooh |
| 02:41.29 | swetland | htc tweaks the modem firmware a bit and that a bit |
| 02:41.33 | *** part/#openmoko EddieOfTheRocks (n=arcturus@S010600131090f58d.ed.shawcable.net) |
| 02:41.38 | raster | so basically what fso is doing with frameworkd etc. anyway |
| 02:41.52 | swetland | but I doubt anybody will have much trouble figuring out how to make the radio happy from the apps side |
| 02:42.15 | SpeedEvil | sighs at the trend to integrate GSM/3G on the core CPU |
| 02:42.21 | swetland | honestly, it'd be better if it were just open source, but they consider it part of their "secret sauce" as it were |
| 02:42.30 | raster | SpeedEvil: cost cutting |
| 02:42.31 | raster | :) |
| 02:42.33 | swetland | speedevil: people want reduced footprint and cost |
| 02:42.42 | swetland | and sometimes better power management |
| 02:42.42 | SpeedEvil | Oh - I understand why it's done. |
| 02:42.42 | raster | swetland: pffft |
| 02:42.58 | SpeedEvil | I'm just bemoaning that it makes hacking harder. |
| 02:43.10 | raster | swetland: the only thng thats sizable and closed there is the 3d - thats non-trivial |
| 02:43.18 | raster | but even then its a shame to have a trend to closed there |
| 02:43.23 | swetland | raster: look at the FR board vs the G1 board. it's frickin' enormous. I should take some pictures. this stuff is crazy crazy tiny, footprint-wise. |
| 02:43.31 | swetland | raster: well, we're working on reversing that |
| 02:43.39 | raster | :) |
| 02:43.52 | swetland | raster: the initial proposals made by qualcomm involved *most* of the drivers being closed userspace modules |
| 02:43.55 | swetland | etc etc |
| 02:44.02 | raster | god |
| 02:44.10 | Tm_T | swetland: reason? |
| 02:44.13 | mjr | swetland, it's nice to hear you say that, 'cause the openhandsetalliance pages really seemed to focus on how everyone can keep everything closed |
| 02:44.18 | raster | Tm_T: it's qualcomm |
| 02:44.21 | swetland | nervous about the gpl |
| 02:44.21 | raster | thats how they do it |
| 02:44.28 | raster | they have always done it that way |
| 02:44.31 | Tm_T | swetland: why? |
| 02:44.39 | swetland | you'd have to ask their legal dept |
| 02:44.43 | SpeedEvil | I hope that stuff gets more open over time. |
| 02:44.44 | Tm_T | raster: ah, I know that, more like to hear why |
| 02:44.49 | Tm_T | swetland: interesting |
| 02:44.51 | swetland | I've wasted enough of my life arguing with 'em. It's not fun. |
| 02:44.57 | SpeedEvil | I think practically the best we can hope for is a slow easing of more toes into the water. |
| 02:45.04 | Tm_T | swetland: send them over |
| 02:45.11 | swetland | I think we're moving in the right direction. |
| 02:45.18 | swetland | it just takes longer than I'd like |
| 02:45.39 | SpeedEvil | Well - I suppose the best would be Google phone taking off massively, and others using the OS, and the phone market going commodity hardware, at which point closed is bad. |
| 02:45.42 | SpeedEvil | But... |
| 02:45.49 | SpeedEvil | s/google/openmoko/ |
| 02:46.16 | swetland | the goal, design and license-wise is to allow oems/carriers to bundle proprietary bits (if they want/need), but ensure that the entire core platform is open and push extremely hard for open drivers, etc, etc) |
| 02:46.37 | swetland | it's a *huge* market. I don't think we're going to see any one entity "win" and dominate |
| 02:46.56 | SpeedEvil | It could happen. |
| 02:47.06 | swetland | everyone (oems, carriers, consumers, etc) has seen the pc market in the 80s, 90s, and how things panned out with microsoft |
| 02:47.08 | SpeedEvil | But is probably unlikely. |
| 02:47.15 | swetland | and is very nervous about affording anyone that level of control again |
| 02:47.21 | raster | yup |
| 02:47.22 | raster | agreed |
| 02:47.37 | SpeedEvil | I was meaning that if 'microsoft' turned out to be a sane open linux-based OS in this case. |
| 02:47.39 | raster | i think linux as a core os tool is going to take the makor share 50-60% |
| 02:47.45 | SpeedEvil | That would blunt some of the concerns. |
| 02:47.47 | raster | whats on top of linux is what will differ |
| 02:47.57 | raster | android vs x11+ normal toolkits vs qte. |
| 02:48.06 | swetland | I think if the whole android project were not open source it would have basically died at launch. nobody wants another proprietary winner-takes-all OS (well, except maybe for people building those OSes...) |
| 02:48.06 | SpeedEvil | And also make some of the concerns irrelevant - as it _vastly_ lowers the barrier of entry into the market. |
| 02:48.08 | raster | ms will probably take 20-30% |
| 02:48.15 | raster | symbian 20 or so |
| 02:48.21 | raster | and others bizarre os's make up the rest |
| 02:48.48 | SpeedEvil | If you don't have to write a software stack, buy a software stack, or train users on your new software, phones get _much_ cheaper and easier to make for small vendors. |
| 02:49.02 | swetland | raster: I think maybe 50+% of the handset market will remain funky embedded stuff for a while, just because the 0-cost devices are still often arm7, or really low end arm9, virtually no memory, etc |
| 02:49.13 | SpeedEvil | swetland: it's changing. |
| 02:49.18 | swetland | it is |
| 02:49.19 | raster | swetland: i'm talking 5-10 years from now |
| 02:49.22 | SpeedEvil | swetland: though it's gonna be another decade. |
| 02:49.29 | raster | swetland: and talking "smartphones" |
| 02:49.40 | swetland | smartphones, definitely |
| 02:49.49 | raster | ie ones that can run real processes |
| 02:49.51 | swetland | reinventing the whole os is not worth it any more |
| 02:49.56 | raster | (not just the "lets make the whole phone 1 single process/app/os blob that does everything" |
| 02:49.57 | SpeedEvil | At the moment, I can get a 32 bit processor with mmu, integrated ROM and RAM that's capable of running linux apart from the size of that ROM and RAM |
| 02:50.02 | SpeedEvil | for $7 |
| 02:50.17 | swetland | back in 2000 at danger we did a tiny custom OS because we had 24MHz arm7, 4mb flash, 8 (later 16) mb ram |
| 02:50.17 | SpeedEvil | (512K/50K) |
| 02:50.19 | SpeedEvil | (512K/40K) |
| 02:50.25 | SpeedEvil | (in quantity one) |
| 02:50.38 | swetland | these days you can get a MMU (luxury!) and everything ^^ |
| 02:50.46 | *** join/#openmoko TAsn (n=tasn@85-250-59-163.bb.netvision.net.il) |
| 02:50.54 | swetland | and linux was a no-brainer for the kernel choice |
| 02:50.58 | raster | awaits his omap3530 |
| 02:51.30 | SpeedEvil | Come on a few years, make multi-chips cheaper, add some ROM and RAM to that, and I can see a basic linux 200MHz system coming in under $10 for a 300MHz 10*10mm package with 128M RAM, and 1G flash. |
| 02:51.48 | SpeedEvil | in ones, and maybe $3 at 100000 units |
| 02:52.02 | SpeedEvil | Perhaps 6-10 years. |
| 02:52.28 | swetland | not at that pricepoint today, but you can get that or better *and* the modem, gpu, dsps, etc all on one die |
| 02:52.35 | swetland | in a decade it'll be nuts |
| 02:52.41 | daMaestro | so i found that the messaging app only crashes when adding multiple recipients if there is a recipient selected when you go to add another |
| 02:52.45 | SpeedEvil | Oh yes. I'm talking of the bottom end of the market. |
| 02:52.50 | swetland | yah |
| 02:53.05 | daMaestro | if you clear the original addition from being selected, the app works as expected |
| 02:53.22 | SpeedEvil | bottom end of the linux capable market in 6-10 years that is. |
| 02:53.47 | swetland | totally agree that once that's the baseline there's no reason to consider a "toy" kernel/system |
| 02:54.23 | swetland | mind you, hacking on little 40KB embedded systems is fun, but that can move to the sub-dollar market ^^ |
| 02:54.46 | SpeedEvil | is currently coding on a MCU with 256 words of ROM :) |
| 02:54.53 | SpeedEvil | It's somewhat different. |
| 02:55.05 | raster | in 10 years the baseline will be more like 500-1ghz with at least 2 cores |
| 02:55.08 | SpeedEvil | But they are $.3 or so in ones. |
| 02:55.12 | raster | i suspect |
| 02:55.17 | raster | 128m being a minimum config |
| 02:55.19 | SpeedEvil | raster: for the $15 or $20 market, yes. |
| 02:55.28 | raster | probably lower i suspect |
| 02:55.37 | swetland | I'm really liking that atmel, philips, etc are doing $1-5 microcontrollers around ARM7 these days |
| 02:55.42 | SpeedEvil | swetland: yeah |
| 02:55.48 | swetland | there are some really fun little devices out there |
| 02:56.35 | swetland | and they're going with in-circuit programmable, no need for jtag, no need for expensive custom tools and crap. it's very nice |
| 02:56.36 | SpeedEvil | I'm contemplating software radio on some of the STM32 family. |
| 02:56.47 | SpeedEvil | swetland: RS232 compatible in-ROM bootloader! |
| 02:56.52 | SpeedEvil | swetland: how cool is that! |
| 02:56.54 | swetland | or USB |
| 02:57.24 | swetland | that's one of the things I love about OMAP |
| 02:57.36 | swetland | TI got it *really* right with the on-rom USBloader |
| 02:58.02 | SpeedEvil | As long as I can lock it out or authenticate it in a shipping product. |
| 02:58.26 | swetland | most vendors sell two versions (general/secure) or fuseable |
| 02:59.17 | swetland | secure gets you a unqiue ID on die, your public key on die, etc |
| 02:59.24 | SpeedEvil | I can see both sides. |
| 02:59.29 | raster | r |
| 02:59.31 | SpeedEvil | A) I want to hack devices that I buy. |
| 02:59.41 | SpeedEvil | B) I want to make secure and hard to reuse devices that I sell. |
| 03:00.06 | raster | SpeedEvil: B) Evil :) you live up to your name |
| 03:00.07 | raster | :) |
| 03:00.49 | swetland | secureboot is an interesting technical challenge, but generally a headache, usually compromised in the end by holes further up the chain, and something I try not to get bogged down in if I can avoid it |
| 03:00.50 | SpeedEvil | Well - yes. But... |
| 03:01.09 | SpeedEvil | swetland: if there is a core in ROM that does the first layer, you can be pretty much secure. |
| 03:01.11 | swetland | see tiff exploit on psp, iphone, etc |
| 03:01.46 | swetland | the hardware is in the hands of "the enemy" as it were. If you're building anything non-trivial, I wouldn't bet on it never being compromised |
| 03:02.05 | raster | i'd just say "give up" |
| 03:02.10 | SpeedEvil | swetland: for example, if the boot ROM on the SoC would only execute the first page of flash/... that it reads in if it's appropriately signed, you're almost screwed. |
| 03:02.17 | raster | its a high cost in time/resources |
| 03:02.23 | raster | to fight the enemy on their turf |
| 03:02.27 | swetland | says the guy who's platform's first device shipped with a live root shell on console listening to keyboard input (now THAT is embarrassing) |
| 03:02.32 | raster | who are also incredibly hard to hunt down |
| 03:02.44 | SpeedEvil | swetland: then that bootloader then goes on to check signature on the kernel, and the kernel then checks signatures on binaries and filesystems. |
| 03:03.19 | SpeedEvil | swetland: you rapidly can get to the point where it's a case of having to swap out the CPU to get it to boot other than approved systems. |
| 03:03.21 | swetland | speedevil: but if your kernel has a bug and somebody can take control after boot, game over. See savegame exploits on consoles, etc, etc. |
| 03:03.32 | SpeedEvil | swetland: sure. MMU helps lots against that. |
| 03:03.44 | SpeedEvil | swetland: as does non-exec patches/hardware |
| 03:03.52 | swetland | it's more secure if you're running something that's been tested in the fire (like linux) rather than some toy os that's "secure" because nobody has ever seen the source ^^ |
| 03:03.56 | SpeedEvil | swetland: and sandboxed apps in their own little chroot |
| 03:04.50 | SpeedEvil | If the user has to re-crack the device from external media every time, you've almost won. |
| 03:04.55 | SpeedEvil | time it boots |
| 03:05.05 | swetland | speedevil: yet a lot of users do this on game consoles |
| 03:05.45 | swetland | I think mostly it's a matter of how high profile the device is, how much value the user gets out of defeating your security, etc |
| 03:05.59 | SpeedEvil | swetland: lack of MMU, horribly badly implemented crypto, and simply not spending the money to get a ROM version of the CPU with your own code on. |
| 03:06.11 | SpeedEvil | swetland: are the majority of the issues I've seen. |
| 03:06.41 | swetland | I'm sure there are people looking for some way around this in G1 running RC30, yet I bet it's fewer than worked to jailbreak iphone because one of the biggest incentives (restrictions on app installation) doesn't exist |
| 03:07.20 | SpeedEvil | A hell of a lot of it is not wanting to spend the extra $2 on security. |
| 03:07.41 | SpeedEvil | If the maker decides that, ... |
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| 03:40.07 | niklauz | whats the volume on the community ml ? |
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| 03:59.22 | sybesis | niklauz, i bet the volume of the ml is around 20L |
| 04:00.11 | niklauz | i bet it's not |
| 04:00.11 | niklauz | wins |
| 04:00.11 | niklauz | hehe |
| 04:00.14 | sybesis | hmmm |
| 04:01.00 | sybesis | is ML solid? |
| 04:01.28 | dufflebunk | solid, but if you hit it you'll bounce |
| 04:01.40 | sybesis | have to go |
| 04:07.02 | dufflebunk | sybesis: I suggest http://openmoko.markmail.org/ if you want to see the activity. |
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| 04:31.21 | Slaxxer | 2008.12 when i turn on gps in settings ,,then turn on tangogps it seems to turn off gps |
| 04:32.36 | Slaxxer | well just now that didnt happen |
| 04:33.33 | Slaxxer | it does have the dark background tango i like that |
| 04:36.31 | Slaxxer | how do i get rasters keyboards on 2008.12? |
| 04:37.09 | Slaxxer | illume-confif is uptodate an also illume-config-illume |
| 04:39.54 | *** join/#openmoko xiangfu (n=xiangfu@203.187.169.35) |
| 04:42.57 | Slaxxer | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Keyboard_Toggle |
| 04:44.27 | slaxxin | sed -i -e s,asu,illume, /etc/enlightenment/default_profile |
| 04:44.28 | slaxxin | root@om-gta02:~# /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm restart |
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| 04:53.30 | slaxxin | now that the releases are a little spaced apart it would be good to implement the md5sums |
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| 04:58.25 | slaxxin | opkg slow |
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| 05:01.56 | Request | Free Programming E-books With Direct Links & Request Ebooks http://www.request-ebooks.blogspot.com/ |
| 05:02.15 | file | what the... |
| 05:20.42 | *** part/#openmoko UndrWater (n=Russell_@pool-96-229-224-233.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) |
| 05:28.28 | Digital_Pioneer | How can I clear my phone log? |
| 05:30.00 | Digital_Pioneer | It's stored in /var/db/phonelog.db, sqlite3 file, but if I remove that file, phonelog crashes. |
| 05:30.14 | Digital_Pioneer | So how do I clear it _cleanly_? :P |
| 05:30.27 | slaxxin | cant u edit it? |
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| 05:35.08 | Digital_Pioneer | slaxxin: I don't know how to edit a sqlite database. I should, but I don't. |
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| 05:42.14 | slaxxin | i special tool not nano? |
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| 05:54.53 | tony_ | during the usbnetworking it keeps saying that remote host identification |
| 05:55.12 | tony_ | has changed |
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| 05:56.55 | tony_ | every time i try to ssh into my phone it says the host key verification failed. but that should not even matter to ssh into the phone any reasons why it would do this? |
| 05:58.09 | mpr | the key changes every time you re-flash the phone |
| 05:58.38 | mpr | remove the 192.168.0.202-line from your pc's ~/.ssh/known_hosts |
| 05:58.59 | mpr | you can also disable strict host key checking in ssh's config file |
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| 06:01.36 | tony_ | mpr thanks, do you know where i could file the config file for ssh? |
| 06:02.10 | mpr | man ssh :) |
| 06:02.50 | mpr | the global one is in /etc/ssh/ssh_config, you can override stuff per-user in ~/.ssh/config |
| 06:04.24 | Digital_Pioneer | Ugh, where's freakin xkill? |
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| 06:05.13 | IguanaNed | good morning all |
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| 06:07.52 | Digital_Pioneer | openmoko-contacts doesn't work. Segfaults after retrieving contact list from SIM. |
| 06:11.04 | tony_ | mpr hey sorry i'm lost, in the ~/.shh/know_hosts i don't see the ip address 192.168.0.202 and on the config file i don't know what i'm doing. oh would it be bad to just delete all of the text in the known_host file? thanks |
| 06:11.50 | mpr | well rename known_hosts to something else and see what happens :) |
| 06:12.14 | tony_ | mpr ha thanks trying that now |
| 06:12.47 | mpr | after that you just get warnings about connecting to new hosts and a new known_hosts begins to be generated from scratch |
| 06:13.28 | mpr | the lines in there are just very long, use e.g. 'nano -w' to see each entry on its own line |
| 06:13.52 | tony_ | mpr alright, thanks it's connected now |
| 06:13.57 | tony_ | appericate it! |
| 06:18.36 | undrwater1 | raster: there? |
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| 06:43.09 | Mononoke | MokoMakefile uses some includes from local linux installation ? |
| 06:43.25 | IguanaNed | anyone using android on FreeRunner? |
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| 06:54.30 | undrwater1 | IguanaNed: tried it once |
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| 06:56.37 | IguanaNed | undr: that doesnt sound too promising |
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| 07:42.57 | Slaxxer | keyboard still mia |
| 07:43.27 | Slaxxer | calling was not there all the time |
| 07:45.28 | Slaxxer | 2008.12 looks better |
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| 08:09.30 | CVirus | I used to love this design and this color http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3199/3048097206_808bc02688.jpg |
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| 08:19.41 | slaxxin | did it get dirty easily |
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| 08:43.40 | raster | undrwater1: nup |
| 08:43.41 | raster | :) |
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| 10:02.08 | Mortak | hi all |
| 10:04.12 | admiral0 | hi |
| 10:04.40 | Mortak | does anyone have a working dfu-uti version? i tried the patch i found, but it doesnt work (backing up rootfs) :( |
| 10:05.38 | *** join/#openmoko sam_ (n=sam_5365@96.238.5.125) |
| 10:06.12 | Mortak | or, how are you backing up your partition? dd via second installed os? |
| 10:07.17 | raph_ael | hi |
| 10:07.22 | Mortak | hi |
| 10:07.35 | raph_ael | never backup up in fact |
| 10:07.56 | Mortak | :) |
| 10:08.49 | Mortak | i have a working system (suspend/resume,phone, gps,wifi) and i want to update it, but i would like to keep it as a working copy :) |
| 10:09.07 | Mortak | and maybe share it |
| 10:10.52 | viq | Mortak: did you try downloading from 'daily' ? |
| 10:11.10 | viq | http://downloads.openmoko.org - somewhere in there |
| 10:11.10 | Mortak | viq: dfu-utils? |
| 10:11.21 | viq | yes, dfu-util |
| 10:11.37 | viq | Also wiki has a link to a graphical tool overlaid over this |
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| 10:11.42 | Mortak | i have the updated svn version at revision 4880 |
| 10:11.53 | Mortak | i dont need a gui :) |
| 10:12.16 | viq | *shrug* it's daily, however current that is :P |
| 10:12.31 | Mortak | ^^ , ill check that, thx a lot :) |
| 10:13.58 | IguanaNed | andriod on FreeRunner? anyone using it? |
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| 10:16.11 | viq | "we are the google, you will be assimilated" ;) |
| 10:16.30 | Mortak | *hide* |
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| 10:21.57 | raph_ael | some people use QI ? |
| 10:22.21 | admiral0 | me |
| 10:23.47 | raph_ael | admiral0: does it changes anything ? is it worse using it more than uboot ? |
| 10:24.08 | admiral0 | i prefer uboot |
| 10:24.12 | *** part/#openmoko sam_ (n=sam_5365@96.238.5.125) |
| 10:24.20 | admiral0 | i'll flash it back |
| 10:24.25 | raph_ael | admiral0: why ? |
| 10:24.32 | admiral0 | qi is too young and minimalist |
| 10:24.59 | admiral0 | i have no idea when kernel fails and why |
| 10:25.12 | admiral0 | and i need it when i compile my own kernels |
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| 10:30.54 | raph_ael | admiral0: oh i see and for basic use, ould it be ok ? |
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| 10:33.01 | edje2 | hi, does anyone know a program to convert nmea data into gpx data on the freerunner itself? i would like to save my last known position and use that for agps the next time i start the gps |
| 10:33.03 | admiral0 | yes i think |
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| 10:35.41 | Mortak | aaargh! still a "dfu_upload error" :( |
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| 11:01.02 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * rfb4e9c7ab03c 10/ChangeLog: Update ChangeLog |
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| 11:20.28 | Blackhex | hello since some time I can't boot 2008.9 and 2008.12 from SD card, I tried different cards several times. It stucks at differente places of boot for example "Configuring update-modules", "Only GTA01 hardware supported by ASoc driver", etc. Looks familiar? |
| 11:20.44 | Blackhex | 2008.8 stable works fine |
| 11:22.04 | Blackhex | correction 2008.9 is that is working fine, everything newer don't boot |
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| 11:53.52 | Mortak | re-hi |
| 11:54.41 | Mortak | does anyone have a working illume digital clock? or do i have to write my own? |
| 11:55.43 | doc|laptop | so, is the freerunner usable as a phone yet? :/ |
| 11:56.03 | balrog-kun | Mortak: if there's a terminal emulator, you can run grdc :) |
| 11:56.11 | balrog-kun | a fullscreen digital clock in ncurses |
| 11:56.30 | jonkristian | doc|laptop: hardly |
| 11:56.40 | jonkristian | doc|laptop: a little, with qte |
| 11:56.45 | Mortak | doc|laptop: mine is, gps/wlan/phone |
| 11:58.11 | Mortak | balrog-kun: :) im looking for a nifty clock for my topshelf |
| 11:58.29 | Mortak | because its nearly impossible to see the time on this analog thingy |
| 11:58.31 | Blackhex | anyone running 2008.12 from sd card? |
| 11:59.11 | doc|laptop | Mortak: reliable? wakes up correctly etc? |
| 11:59.16 | raph_ael | admiral0: thanks (a little bit late) |
| 12:00.14 | Mortak | doc|laptop: wakes up, but doesnt have a ring sound (i dont need it, because of the strong vobrator) :) |
| 12:01.02 | doc|laptop | Mortak: hmmm |
| 12:01.02 | Mortak | doc|laptop: but thats the only thing |
| 12:01.03 | Mortak | doc|laptop: even illume isnt crashing anymore |
| 12:01.09 | doc|laptop | heh |
| 12:01.11 | doc|laptop | ok, thanks |
| 12:01.44 | Mortak | i would love to make a image of my running system, but i cant get dfu-util to download it |
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| 12:02.26 | balrog-kun | so two things not working :p |
| 12:02.49 | Mortak | balrog-kun: NOO!! its not the freerunner itself :) |
| 12:03.14 | balrog-kun | i guess you could try copying /dev/mtdblock5 over scp somehow |
| 12:03.49 | Mortak | or dd`ing it |
| 12:04.13 | balrog-kun | yeah |
| 12:04.24 | Mortak | but no netcat in opkg.. |
| 12:04.31 | Mortak | *narf* |
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| 12:25.19 | Mortak | wow, theres really no "good" clock available for the fr |
| 12:26.21 | Pander | what is the command that is automatically executed when doing opkg install or remove that updates the icons on the desktop? |
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| 12:38.36 | feitingen | Pander: the icons on the desktop lies in /usr/share/applications or something like that |
| 12:39.35 | Pander | the icons are in /usr/share/pixmaps, when I replace one, I have to either restart illume to see them updated, or when I do an opkg install I get updates |
| 12:39.44 | *** part/#openmoko Blackhex (n=Blackhex@85-132-241-152-eth3-gwmi2-user.802.cz) |
| 12:39.49 | Pander | the latter is very fast I was wondering which exact command does the update |
| 12:40.03 | billk | Mortak: try this illume theme for a digital clock - http://wdk.dyndns.org/freerunner/illume.edj |
| 12:40.11 | Pander | perhaps it is ldconfig |
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| 12:40.26 | Pander | yep it is that one :) |
| 12:41.07 | Mortak | billk: thx, i`ll try that |
| 12:41.08 | billk | put in .e/e/themes and it will overide the normal illume theme - delete it to return to normal. "killall -HUP enlightenment to enable" |
| 12:42.19 | billk | Having removed the dropshadow module, illume isnt segfaulting on the software_16 engine, but I have no gps level |
| 12:42.31 | billk | is that the same for others? |
| 12:42.48 | billk | sorry, thats GSM, not gps |
| 12:43.34 | Mortak | billk: dropshadow disabled, no segs but gsm level still works |
| 12:43.51 | Pander | hmm, ldconfig not... |
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| 12:45.32 | faltantornillos | hello. I installed debian and lxde but pcmanfm is eating all my cpu, any help? pls |
| 12:45.48 | billk | Mortak: thanks, must be something I instralled has killed it, will reflash and start again. |
| 12:46.11 | Mortak | billk: no porblem, good luck :) |
| 12:46.15 | Mortak | "problem" |
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| 12:48.34 | PBeck | ahoi |
| 12:48.52 | PBeck | i wish all a mery christmas :) |
| 12:50.42 | Mortak | thanks a lot, the same to you ;=) |
| 12:50.51 | jonkristian | Right back atcha |
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| 12:51.38 | jonkristian | Mortak: what kind of system are you running? |
| 12:52.17 | billk | Mortak: another solution to making an image - see Dale Magee's NeoTool. I extracted the relevant bits into my backup scripts as the machine I use with the neo has no display |
| 12:52.37 | billk | ssh access only. Makes a flashable image - works well. |
| 12:52.40 | Mortak | jonkristian: its soe kind of fdom image plus enhancements |
| 12:52.48 | Mortak | billk: yeah, nice |
| 12:52.55 | Mortak | billk: thx |
| 12:52.59 | jonkristian | Mortak: I'd be interested |
| 12:53.22 | jonkristian | What kind of enhancements tho? |
| 12:56.23 | Mortak | jonkristian: mostly e17 stabilty stuff, have to look through my bash history to say what i have done |
| 12:56.48 | f3ew | wants a keyboard |
| 12:56.52 | f3ew | for the FR |
| 12:57.02 | lindi- | f3ew: xvkbd? |
| 12:57.14 | Mortak | f3ew: software or hardware? |
| 12:57.18 | jonkristian | Mortak: An article like that would be popular ;) |
| 12:57.18 | f3ew | lindi-, I just upgraded to OM 2008.12 |
| 12:57.29 | lindi- | f3ew: i couldn't compile it |
| 12:57.41 | *** join/#openmoko xiangfu (n=xiangfu@123.121.194.242) |
| 12:57.43 | f3ew | used the image from the downloads site |
| 12:57.53 | f3ew | Turns out it's got qtopia |
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| 12:58.04 | Mortak | jonkristian: ill try that, but i have only 1hour left until my personnel family xmas nightmare starts *aaaargh!!!eleven!* |
| 12:58.14 | jonkristian | Mortak: hohoho |
| 12:58.31 | f3ew | the rest is nice, but I don't have a usable software keyboard |
| 12:58.39 | jonkristian | Mortak: Something like that here aswell |
| 12:59.08 | Mortak | and i have to shower, shave and dress until then (maybe i can stretch my time a littlebit) ;) |
| 13:00.00 | Mortak | but FIRST, i need to back up my fr |
| 13:00.52 | jonkristian | :) |
| 13:01.12 | Mortak | neotool is running atm |
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| 13:03.24 | svein | how is the SD card default formated? |
| 13:04.09 | evolux | hi! is it worth "upgrading" from FDOM to 2008.12, or is it even possible? |
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| 13:08.01 | Mortak | jonkristian: check my query |
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| 13:37.50 | Mortak | ok, have to prepare for my personal nightmare!! cu later :) |
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| 14:05.01 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07specs * r8867fe47a58a 10/ (3 files in 3 dirs): |
| 14:05.01 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: otapi: Make act attribute mandatory and change defaults |
| 14:05.01 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: Change the default value of the access type to be "GSM" and make act |
| 14:05.01 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: mandatory. Also catch up on the ListProviders signature. |
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| 14:13.07 | Blackhex | how can I change black om theme to white asu theme in 2008.12? |
| 14:14.01 | Pander | the icons are in /usr/share/pixmaps, when I replace one, I have to either restart illume to see them updated, or when I do an opkg install I get updates. the latter is very fast I was wondering which exact command does the update |
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| 14:17.50 | jokerfox | Found you :) |
| 14:17.53 | textshell | Pander: you could look at the ipk sources or strace it, i'm sure there's an strace for om too... |
| 14:18.06 | jokerfox | repository opkg.conf for 2008.12 ? |
| 14:18.38 | f3ew | twitches |
| 14:18.56 | f3ew | My FR is getting seriously hot today, post the OM 2008.12 update |
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| 14:35.15 | xiangfu | anyone know how to print Screen in Android with FR |
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| 14:40.36 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07specs * red4d21f5e407 10/ (5 files in 3 dirs): |
| 14:40.36 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: otapi: Follow AcT changes in org.freesmartphone.GSM.PDP |
| 14:40.36 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: GetNetworkStatus also reports the act attribute. Fix NetworkStatus |
| 14:40.36 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: parameter |
| 14:42.27 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * rc8ff34f7756a 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/abstract/ (mediator.py unsolicited.py): ogsmd: Catch up with latest act spec changes (make AcT mandatory) |
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| 14:45.37 | Hobart | Is a latest uboot ( http://downloads.openmoko.org/daily/testing/ ) reasonably safe to run? I'm having battery-discharged issues and want the Freerunner to hopefully charge after a u-boot 'shutdown' |
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| 14:52.23 | mokel | hi, #mokopedia says: kiwix nearly complete - grab the source, compile and see for yourself! |
| 14:52.23 | mokel | anyone knows where to get the code? |
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| 15:09.52 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * r8b81d1bfa048 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/abstract/ (mediator.py unsolicited.py): |
| 15:09.52 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: ogsmd: Add charset support to more methods and signals |
| 15:09.52 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: PdpGetNetworkStatus and NetworksStatus signals |
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| 15:25.42 | evolux | can someone tell me how to check if my downloaded jffs2 root image is complete? |
| 15:25.48 | evolux | i'm not able to mount it on my ubuntu system |
| 15:25.59 | evolux | loop does not work and mtdram cannot be large enough |
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| 15:28.33 | xiangfu | evolux: you want mount the jffs2 file ? |
| 15:31.19 | evolux | that would be one possibility |
| 15:31.24 | evolux | i just want to extract some files |
| 15:31.38 | evolux | or actually check if they are there |
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| 15:33.47 | xiangfu | evolux: you can try : http://www.openmobilefree.net/index.php?entry=entry081224-223844 |
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| 15:33.59 | xiangfu | evolux: bye , i have to sleep. |
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| 16:29.41 | uzytkownik | Hello. How to install a new (polish) keyboard for illume-keyboard (I guess this is default keyboard in SHR)? |
| 16:30.20 | uzytkownik | PS. I do not want to change locale and/or remove english |
| 16:30.46 | uzytkownik | (I mean - the dictionary for 'default' entry - not the pl-specific signs) |
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| 16:58.48 | uzytkownik | Ok. I get response on language channel. |
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| 17:05.19 | Batchy | help, i'm trying to use usb host mode using an hand made cable. but on the other end of the cable, all i get is 0.05V between +5 and gnd (om2008) |
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| 18:08.02 | edje | hi does anyone know an application to convert the gps nmea output to gpx. the application must run on the freerunner. i want to save my last known position so i can use it with agps the next time i start it up |
| 18:08.34 | *** join/#openmoko ^wd^ (n=wd@82.119.147.190) |
| 18:09.38 | mjr | gpsbabel |
| 18:10.22 | cjb | there's a simple perl script that can do it too, IIRC |
| 18:10.35 | cjb | published on the tangogps site |
| 18:11.54 | edje | mjr: gpsbabel running on the freerunner? where can i find that package? |
| 18:12.11 | edje | cjb: thanks, i will take a look there |
| 18:14.23 | mjr | From debian... |
| 18:17.47 | edje | mjr: ah, well, i am running 2008.12. but thanks for the hint. |
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| 18:24.49 | edje | cjb: the script is simple, perhaps to simple: |
| 18:24.51 | edje | <trkpt lat="$GPZDA" lon="182357.00"> |
| 18:24.52 | edje | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:24.54 | edje | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:24.56 | edje | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:24.58 | edje | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:25.00 | edje | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:25.01 | edje | </time>>00*63 |
| 18:25.03 | edje | </trkpt> |
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| 18:55.04 | TAsn | have anyone gave fennec a2 a try yet? |
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| 20:04.12 | Yanroy | hi all |
| 20:04.23 | Yanroy | I just heard about the 2008.12 update... I think I'm running 2008.9 |
| 20:04.40 | Yanroy | it's been a couple months since I've done an update... can I get the new version using opkg upgrade, or do I need to reflash? |
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| 20:04.46 | Yanroy | the wiki page doesn't mention upgrading through opkg |
| 20:13.35 | *** part/#openmoko shanka (n=shashank@59.92.152.95) |
| 20:13.45 | mwester | Yanroy: generally not. |
| 20:15.07 | mwester | You might get close; you might end up with a non-functional rootfs; you may get a perfect upgrade -- but at this point in development, opkg updates != reflash. (be nice to have that work in the future, or even to have a means to do an "opkg verify-my-package-match <firmware-image>" or something...) |
| 20:27.47 | Batchy | help, i'm trying to use usb host mode, but i can get the freerunner to output power (it works fine with a powered hub) |
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| 20:36.57 | lindi- | Batchy: i use $ cat bin/usbhost-start |nc paste.dyndns.org 1234 |
| 20:36.57 | lindi- | http://rafb.net/p/xV00Fe91.html |
| 20:37.49 | Batchy | i did everything except the modprobe part |
| 20:38.00 | lindi- | Batchy: are you trying to use a keyboard? |
| 20:38.04 | Batchy | yes |
| 20:38.13 | lindi- | Batchy: for some reason i can not get keyboard work without extra hub either |
| 20:38.20 | lindi- | Batchy: mice also don't work |
| 20:38.25 | lindi- | Batchy: all other usb devices seem to work |
| 20:38.46 | lindi- | Batchy: i thought it was just my cable but maybe it's a real bug somewhere? |
| 20:38.50 | Batchy | let's try ;) |
| 20:39.00 | lindi- | Batchy: i tested four keyboards and two mice |
| 20:39.04 | mokel | for me its the same. usb stick 1gb works, keyboards not |
| 20:39.11 | lindi- | smells like a bug! |
| 20:39.18 | mokel | fso 4.1 btw |
| 20:39.23 | lindi- | it's kernel issue |
| 20:39.26 | lindi- | or hardware |
| 20:39.28 | mokel | smells like a missing kernel module |
| 20:39.29 | mokel | ^^ |
| 20:39.30 | Batchy | om2008.9 ... ;) |
| 20:39.31 | *** part/#openmoko uzytkownik (n=uzytkown@2001:6a0:162:0:216:ceff:fe26:39e6) |
| 20:39.47 | lindi- | mokel: how can hub fix that? |
| 20:39.56 | mokel | mmh |
| 20:39.57 | *** join/#openmoko _fletch (n=fletch@schmu.firma.cc) |
| 20:39.57 | mokel | ok |
| 20:40.44 | lindi- | can you report it or should I? |
| 20:40.52 | lindi- | (i'm in the middle of a frameworkd issue right now) |
| 20:41.27 | Batchy | maybe i could do that (after reproducing) |
| 20:41.59 | Digital_Pioneer | Is there a way to SSH over bluetooth? |
| 20:42.10 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: sure |
| 20:42.22 | lindi- | Batchy: thanks, let me know the bug id |
| 20:42.38 | lindi- | Batchy: i have seen that with all kernels i have tested and also with other fr phones |
| 20:42.40 | Digital_Pioneer | lindi-: How? |
| 20:42.47 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: you setup IP over bluetooth |
| 20:42.53 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: then you do ssh over tcp/ip like you normally would |
| 20:43.09 | mokel | dont forget to modify the dropbear script |
| 20:43.19 | mokel | normally it only listens on usb0 |
| 20:43.20 | Digital_Pioneer | lindi-: I do IP via ifconfig, which isn't bluetooth aware. Is it the same way with hciconfig? |
| 20:43.21 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: http://iki.fi/lindi/bluetooth.txt |
| 20:43.30 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: it's not the same |
| 20:43.35 | Digital_Pioneer | OK. |
| 20:43.53 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: that's for using gprs of phone from laptop |
| 20:43.58 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: but i'm sure you can adapt |
| 20:44.09 | Digital_Pioneer | If it has an IP, I'm sure I can use it. |
| 20:44.09 | mokel | url does not work |
| 20:44.18 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/bluetooth.txt |
| 20:44.21 | lindi- | fixed url :) |
| 20:44.31 | Digital_Pioneer | Thanks. :) |
| 20:44.35 | lindi- | irc clients should check urls for validity automatically |
| 20:44.43 | mokel | :) |
| 20:44.43 | lindi- | would save everybody's time |
| 20:44.48 | mokel | humany should do |
| 20:44.49 | Digital_Pioneer | LOL |
| 20:44.54 | mokel | humans |
| 20:45.11 | mokel | your keyboard should prevent you from typing illegal urls ^^ |
| 20:45.43 | mokel | anyone knows news about mokopedia? |
| 20:46.21 | lindi- | mokel: http://iki.fi/lindi/URLFixTrick.py is a subterfugue module that censors all broken URLs a process tries to write |
| 20:46.44 | lindi- | mokel: so if I try to send a broken url like here: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX you will only see X's |
| 20:46.53 | mokel | :) |
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| 20:47.32 | lindi- | 'Tool for subverting programs -- "strace meets expect"' -- in case you did not know |
| 20:48.15 | mokel | sounds interesting |
| 20:49.08 | Digital_Pioneer | Hmm, is there no way to setup key-based authentication from FR to other system? |
| 20:49.26 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: works here |
| 20:49.44 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: why would that have anything to do with hardware anyway? |
| 20:49.44 | Digital_Pioneer | My laptop uses key authentication into the FR... But the FR has no ssh-keygen program. |
| 20:50.01 | mokel | you can generate the keys on your desktop |
| 20:50.20 | mokel | from where they are doesnt matter |
| 20:50.40 | lindi- | mokel: $ PYTHONPATH=scratch/tricks sf -t URLFix /bin/echo try visiting http://iki.fi/lindi/404 if you can |
| 20:50.43 | lindi- | try visiting XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX if you can |
| 20:51.10 | lindi- | (apt-get install subterfugue and wget my trick if you want to try) |
| 20:51.44 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: install one |
| 20:52.29 | Digital_Pioneer | Ahh, it's in package repo. |
| 20:54.43 | Batchy | lindi- : i can't reproduce it : my usb key doesn't work either. |
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| 20:55.45 | lindi- | Batchy: it doesn't work with hub? |
| 20:55.46 | *** join/#openmoko mlpug_ (n=username@a88-115-168-225.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 20:55.47 | Batchy | and sometimes, lsusb hangs |
| 20:55.51 | Batchy | no without hub |
| 20:55.52 | Digital_Pioneer | FR still says at boot that debugfs dir creation failed -19, lis302dl.2 device failed BOOT something, and it couldn't read `status` from bat property or something... |
| 20:55.58 | Digital_Pioneer | Any ideas on those? |
| 20:56.10 | Batchy | i couldn't get anything to work without hub |
| 20:56.15 | lindi- | Batchy: odd |
| 20:56.22 | lindi- | Batchy: did you try usb memory stick? |
| 20:56.35 | Batchy | yes |
| 20:57.15 | Batchy | wants to forget it and try after upgrading to 2008.12 |
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| 21:11.00 | bxyrk | quick question, where do i untar modules?... for an sd card install... |
| 21:11.58 | lindi- | bxyrk: modprobe looks for them in /lib/modules/`uname -r` |
| 21:12.29 | bxyrk | so that's where i should decompress them to? |
| 21:12.49 | lindi- | yeah |
| 21:13.20 | bxyrk | cool, i appreciate it |
| 21:13.36 | bxyrk | ... going with FDOM/shr |
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| 21:21.33 | Digital_Pioneer | Ugh, what is the secret to SSH key authentication? I use ssh-keygen on the client, copy id_rsa.pub to the server, and append it to .ssh/authorized_keys, yes? What other step is there? |
| 21:21.38 | Digital_Pioneer | It never works... |
| 21:21.53 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: have you used it on other systems? |
| 21:22.25 | Digital_Pioneer | lindi-: I got it working from my laptop to the FR, though I have no idea how. It just started working one time. It wasn't working before that. |
| 21:22.36 | Digital_Pioneer | Can't get it going from the FR back to the laptop. |
| 21:23.21 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: what ssh client are you using? |
| 21:23.45 | Digital_Pioneer | lindi-: On my laptop, it's openssh. On the FR, it's whatever comes with SHR. |
| 21:23.54 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: what does SHR come with? |
| 21:24.14 | Digital_Pioneer | lindi-: dropbear SSH client. |
| 21:24.27 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: does it read authorized_keys? |
| 21:24.36 | Digital_Pioneer | No clue. |
| 21:24.44 | lindi- | ignore previous line :) |
| 21:24.48 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: does it read id_rsa.pub? |
| 21:25.10 | Digital_Pioneer | Not sure about that either, but I have my doubts. |
| 21:25.15 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: use strace to find out |
| 21:25.23 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: strace -o s -s4096 -f ssh somebox |
| 21:25.31 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: grep id_rsa s |
| 21:25.37 | Digital_Pioneer | lindi-: Moot point. I installed the openssh client, and it works. |
| 21:25.43 | Digital_Pioneer | So I would guess no. :P |
| 21:27.07 | lindi- | how should i name the only menu of a program? "File" sounds stupid since the program does not deal with files |
| 21:28.31 | Digital_Pioneer | lindi-: What does the menu do? |
| 21:28.53 | lindi- | Digital_Pioneer: it offers a way to power up and power down GSM and to exit the program |
| 21:29.23 | Digital_Pioneer | Call it GSM? |
| 21:29.26 | lindi- | but in the future i might put other rare stuff there |
| 21:29.42 | lindi- | but the whole program is about making calls with GSM :) |
| 21:29.49 | Digital_Pioneer | It's a dialer? |
| 21:29.56 | lindi- | dialer UI yes |
| 21:30.09 | Digital_Pioneer | Is it a good one? :P |
| 21:30.25 | lindi- | depends on what that means :) |
| 21:30.33 | lindi- | goal is to be simple as possible and reliable |
| 21:30.51 | lindi- | but it has simple phonebook with automatic completion ;) |
| 21:30.54 | Digital_Pioneer | Well, I don't care for the builtin one much... It's a bit unresponsive. |
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| 22:21.56 | Digital_Pioneer | lindi-: OK, finally got around to trying that page of yours.... modules bluetooth, bnep do not exist on phone, and bnep0 is not created on phone or laptop. |
| 22:29.16 | Digital_Pioneer | Ahh, got it. Just had to switch the roles of the phone and laptop. |
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| 22:57.46 | alphaone | I think I broke unsolicited Status messages |
| 22:59.06 | Hobart | Quick question - I booted into the NAND boot and chose shutdown, and then plugged in USB, so I am at the plain centered OpenMoko logo over amber gradient background ... but the AUX button is not blinking red ... is the Freerunner charging? |
| 22:59.14 | Hobart | or discharging? :( :( |
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| 23:33.12 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * rbbe669861a22 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/abstract/unsolicited.py: |
| 23:33.12 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: ogsmd: Fix "NameError: global name 'currentModem' is not defined" |
| 23:33.12 | CIA-48 | freesmartphone.org: NetworkStatus signals should work again |
| 23:36.56 | Digital_Pioneer | Is there a way to download a bunch of maps for TangoGPS ahead of time, so it already has them when I go there, and doesn't need to re-download them? |
| 23:37.36 | Wonka | start tangogps, move the map to the appropriate area by dragging it |
| 23:37.49 | Wonka | click into the window and select "download maps" |
| 23:37.57 | Wonka | up to zoomlevel+7 |
| 23:38.14 | Wonka | takes "a little" time to download the about 40k tiles... |
| 23:38.14 | Digital_Pioneer | So I can't just download a tarball or something and dump them into its cache? |
| 23:38.37 | Wonka | er, no. would be way too big. |
| 23:39.00 | Wonka | i got about 1.6GB of map data, and that's only small parts of germany |
| 23:39.21 | Digital_Pioneer | I'd like to tell it to download all of them for a mile radius or something and have them all preloaded. |
| 23:39.44 | Wonka | i'd rather find or code a viewer for OSM vector data (planet.bin...) |
| 23:39.54 | Digital_Pioneer | Heheh, yeah. |
| 23:39.58 | Wonka | as i said, move map to that area |
| 23:40.07 | Wonka | and select "download maps" |
| 23:40.22 | Wonka | there is no automatic delete, afaik |
