| 00:01.41 | anttna | my fault it's working now. ugh i changed to default shr is it possible to get back to illume? |
| 00:01.44 | *** join/#openmoko swc|666 (n=swc|666@unaffiliated/swc666/x-4934821) |
| 00:12.10 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | default shr? |
| 00:12.21 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | you mean Illume SHR |
| 00:12.23 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | ? |
| 00:14.12 | Fougner | :D |
| 00:14.16 | Fougner | hello everyone |
| 00:14.18 | Fougner | Dave, !!!! :D |
| 00:14.24 | *** join/#openmoko emacsen (n=serge@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/emacsen) |
| 00:14.48 | pieterc | hi fougnerr!!!! |
| 00:15.14 | Fougner | haha, hi pieterc |
| 00:15.19 | pieterc | ;) |
| 00:15.22 | anttna | yes i'm trying to remember the options i picked illumeto after flashing then change to default and I can't see a way to change back |
| 00:16.13 | anttna | sorry i didn't read throught that > i'm trying to remember the options, i picked illume after flashing then change to default and I can't see a way to change back |
| 00:17.31 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | hmm |
| 00:17.50 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | try to delete ~/.e |
| 00:18.28 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | mv ~/.e ~/.e_ |
| 00:18.46 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | then reboot |
| 00:18.52 | anttna | will do thx |
| 00:19.15 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | not sure if it helps - just guessing |
| 00:19.42 | pieterc | hah, i liked the idea of putting the gnuboy screenshot on the mainpage of the wiki ;) |
| 00:19.49 | pieterc | (though it was my screenshot) |
| 00:19.51 | pieterc | thanks coolcat |
| 00:20.03 | pieterc | damn you all who edited it back to the image it was;) |
| 00:20.53 | *** join/#openmoko merriam (n=merriam@wmerriam.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 00:23.26 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | pieterc: what exactly is gnuboy? |
| 00:23.41 | pieterc | a gameboy emulator |
| 00:23.58 | pieterc | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/gnuboy |
| 00:24.01 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | cool |
| 00:25.58 | pieterc | yea it is |
| 00:26.05 | pieterc | but i still got some problems using sdl ... |
| 00:26.18 | pieterc | and since i'm not that experienced i don't manage to compile it anyway |
| 00:26.28 | pieterc | but Thomas Bertani can compile it;) |
| 00:26.46 | pieterc | I know c++ though |
| 00:27.11 | pieterc | but i don't get it how you can use the touch screen in sdl for buttons ... |
| 00:27.17 | pieterc | neither the accelerometers... |
| 00:27.27 | pieterc | and i wanted to turn the screen using xrand |
| 00:27.36 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | gcc -lsdl |
| 00:27.40 | pieterc | and change the resolution (makes it run faster- |
| 00:27.40 | pieterc | ) |
| 00:27.54 | pieterc | yeah, returns errors;) |
| 00:28.03 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | ahh |
| 00:28.38 | pieterc | I guess i might be retarted;) |
| 00:29.06 | pieterc | and i should be playing pokémon instead of trying to compile gnuboy |
| 00:29.07 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | welcome to the club:) |
| 00:29.16 | pieterc | :D |
| 00:29.22 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | everybody can get errors |
| 00:29.28 | anttna | can any one tell me how to get a keyboard when using default on shr. Do I just reflash? |
| 00:29.50 | pieterc | don't use default? |
| 00:30.00 | pieterc | that's for desktop pc's i guess.. |
| 00:30.04 | pieterc | you should use illume |
| 00:30.10 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | I never found kbd on default |
| 00:30.11 | anttna | i see |
| 00:30.53 | anttna | oh well it gives me an excuse to try om daily |
| 00:30.55 | pieterc | otherwise... if you rly want to use default you could try to install the matchbox keyboard? |
| 00:31.26 | anttna | i selected default to see what it was like |
| 00:31.30 | pieterc | (actually, i like the matchbox keyboard the most... screw the illume ones;)) |
| 00:31.37 | pieterc | :) |
| 00:31.52 | Fougner | BAH! |
| 00:31.53 | *** join/#openmoko gopi (n=gopi@dynamic-acs-72-23-220-197.zoominternet.net) |
| 00:31.54 | Fougner | SHR shit |
| 00:31.56 | Fougner | =( |
| 00:32.00 | Fougner | no offence |
| 00:32.06 | Fougner | I'm shit.. probably |
| 00:32.19 | pieterc | haha |
| 00:32.24 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | the default kbd in SHR (the illume kbd?) is not bad |
| 00:32.37 | anttna | speaking of keyboards I was watching train wreck on youtube he really didn't like fr very much |
| 00:32.47 | pieterc | no he didn't |
| 00:32.50 | pieterc | but that's normal |
| 00:33.02 | pieterc | it isn't a finalised product |
| 00:33.02 | SpeedEvil | FR, as a phone - is basically broken at the moment. |
| 00:33.07 | pieterc | fact |
| 00:33.16 | Fougner | haha stupid boy, thought FR was able to compete with an iPhone xD |
| 00:33.21 | SpeedEvil | It may be heading towards less broken, but only someone rather strange would claim it's a fully working phone. |
| 00:33.52 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | fr is a cool stk |
| 00:34.09 | Fougner | SpeedEvil, is there a way to get the SMS on the NAND of SD instead of the SIM? |
| 00:34.19 | SpeedEvil | Fougner: sorry - no idea |
| 00:34.23 | Fougner | oh |
| 00:35.00 | Fougner | OH GOD I wish people can get some structure on this whole project |
| 00:35.15 | *** join/#openmoko batti112 (n=batti@p5B14C394.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 00:35.17 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | They are!!!!! |
| 00:35.25 | Fougner | :O |
| 00:35.27 | Fougner | really? =D |
| 00:35.37 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | yes |
| 00:35.52 | Fougner | oooh, lack of information |
| 00:35.57 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | but there is not __that__ many dev folks |
| 00:36.10 | Fougner | I don't want to complain, but, really, the community can help a lot :O |
| 00:36.23 | Fougner | I don't see you people are so lazy =P |
| 00:36.51 | Fougner | I mean, a lot of us "non programmers" would probably be able to do a lot of stuf |
| 00:36.52 | Fougner | stuff* |
| 00:37.00 | Fougner | that's what I wish for, anyway |
| 00:37.02 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | I work 12-14 hours a day... little time |
| 00:37.22 | Fougner | quatrox|zZzzzZzz, I don't blame anyone |
| 00:37.32 | Fougner | =) |
| 00:38.36 | Fougner | but one thing that would be good, a more structured way for the "customers" to get info..I know FR is for developers, but hey |
| 00:38.37 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | no prob. |
| 00:38.52 | Fougner | oh, I mean, I could do UI design =D |
| 00:39.01 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | I hope to get more time for fr |
| 00:39.01 | pieterc | I like the way it is actually |
| 00:39.07 | pieterc | a small open source community :) |
| 00:39.09 | pieterc | It's nice;) |
| 00:39.26 | Fougner | wooh, OM has potential, I don't want it to be small |
| 00:39.33 | pieterc | And in 10 years this project will be better than any project;) |
| 00:40.05 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | I6 years |
| 00:40.15 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | 6 years |
| 00:40.17 | pieterc | Ok.. le's make it a bet;) |
| 00:40.21 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | not 10 |
| 00:40.30 | Fougner | guys |
| 00:40.36 | Fougner | I think is rather 3 or something :P |
| 00:40.45 | Fougner | at least I hope so |
| 00:40.48 | pieterc | I bet a GTA06 on 10 years;) |
| 00:40.50 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | 3 what? |
| 00:40.54 | Fougner | anyway, at least one good thing, for my eyes, "we should be developing apps, able to run on GTA03, not for FR only" |
| 00:40.55 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | months? |
| 00:40.58 | Fougner | haha |
| 00:41.01 | Fougner | funnyu |
| 00:42.06 | anttna | i think i just bricked it :S i tried to flash but I set usb mode while plugged in to the usb cable rather than setting it first and then plugging it in, tried to flash it and got a message which i missed now no response from the phone "ah" |
| 00:42.39 | *** join/#openmoko max_posedon (n=max_pose@80.249.95.252) |
| 00:43.08 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | you did not brick it |
| 00:43.29 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | hold aux and push power |
| 00:43.33 | anttna | ok panic over battery out and in and its working |
| 00:43.34 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | enter nor |
| 00:43.44 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | ahh |
| 00:43.47 | quatrox|zZzzzZzz | good |
| 00:43.53 | anttna | phew |
| 00:44.59 | *** join/#openmoko max_posedon (n=max_pose@80.249.95.252) |
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| 01:20.16 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03werner * r4842 10/developers/werner/wlan-trial/ (Makefile wlan-trial.init wlan-trial.myroot): |
| 01:20.16 | CIA-24 | openmoko: - wlan-trial.myroot: added bind-utils and nano |
| 01:20.16 | CIA-24 | openmoko: - wlan-trial.myroot, wlan-trial.init, Makefile: provide detailed kernel version |
| 01:20.16 | CIA-24 | openmoko: information, including git and quilt status |
| 01:21.14 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03werner * r4843 10/developers/werner/myroot/werner.myroot: A fairy has put bind-utils in the feed ;-) |
| 01:34.14 | Sargun | man. |
| 01:34.52 | Dave | Yes. |
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| 01:53.07 | *** join/#openmoko dougt (n=dougt@c-69-181-65-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
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| 01:53.43 | *** part/#openmoko ChandleWEi (n=chandle@210.13.121.62) |
| 01:55.08 | kd8ikt | heh werner |
| 01:55.18 | kd8ikt | bind-utils |
| 01:55.31 | kd8ikt | that guy is funny |
| 01:55.45 | Sargun | ? |
| 01:56.41 | kd8ikt | dont you read what the CIA-24 bot says? |
| 01:57.49 | *** join/#openmoko christooss (n=matic@BSN-95-218-85.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) |
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| 02:29.50 | djinn | hi all |
| 02:29.57 | djinn | i have a question |
| 02:30.49 | Dave | Yes, Mr. Djinn? |
| 02:31.13 | djinn | hi dave |
| 02:31.28 | djinn | i was wondering if j2me is available for openmoko |
| 02:31.59 | Dave | I use Jalimo's JVM for openmoko. |
| 02:32.04 | Dave | For the most part it works well. |
| 02:32.28 | djinn | Dave: ?? works well |
| 02:32.30 | *** join/#openmoko ChandleWEi1 (n=chandle@210.13.121.62) |
| 02:32.34 | *** part/#openmoko ChandleWEi1 (n=chandle@210.13.121.62) |
| 02:32.43 | Dave | Yeah |
| 02:32.52 | Dave | Judge for yourself :) |
| 02:32.54 | Dave | https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo/index.php/OpenMoko |
| 02:37.26 | *** join/#openmoko madwoota (n=mad@64.32.12.159) |
| 02:41.37 | djinn | Dave: does it come packaged for openmoko |
| 02:42.23 | Dave | Yes |
| 02:42.26 | ieatlint | hey dave |
| 02:42.27 | Dave | Look in their repository |
| 02:42.33 | Dave | it may be listed as cacao |
| 02:42.39 | Dave | which is the actual jvm, I believe |
| 02:43.16 | Dave | lint! |
| 02:43.43 | ieatlint | how goes it? |
| 02:44.49 | Dave | I was reminiscing about libâ the other day. :) |
| 02:46.59 | *** join/#openmoko everslick (n=clemens@212-183-114-155.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 02:57.49 | ieatlint | ah, yes |
| 02:57.56 | ieatlint | sorry, i ran out to get something to drink |
| 02:58.01 | Dave | :) |
| 02:58.18 | ieatlint | yeah, i ended up rewriting it after deciding the code was too difficult to maintain |
| 02:59.02 | ieatlint | i also ditched libsoup for libcurl since libsoup was too damned annoying and had versioning issues with half of people on v2.2 and the other half 2.4 |
| 03:00.29 | ieatlint | sadly much of my openmoko steam has died up... the frustration from other parts of my life overloaded my ability to cope with openmoko frustration... hopefully i'll be able to get back into it soon :) |
| 03:00.55 | *** join/#openmoko polymar_ (n=polymar@vpn.yellowpages.com) |
| 03:01.38 | Dave | I figured ask much |
| 03:01.44 | Dave | Just thought I'd reach out to you :) |
| 03:02.49 | ieatlint | how's the massive conglomorate going? |
| 03:03.32 | Dave | hah |
| 03:03.38 | Dave | not well, as you might think |
| 03:04.10 | Dave | things are coming together more, yet there are similar schisms which still exist. |
| 03:04.50 | ieatlint | exciting |
| 03:06.26 | *** join/#openmoko olv (n=olvaffe@122-116-62-89.HINET-IP.hinet.net) |
| 03:06.36 | Dave | uh huh |
| 03:06.52 | Dave | SHR is definitely coming along but I think it'll still be a long while till it develops to where we'd ideally like it. |
| 03:07.12 | Dave | Meanwhile things like Android and to a lesser extend (in Hype anyway), debian are moving along in parallel. |
| 03:13.38 | ieatlint | yeah... we'll see how that goes |
| 03:14.03 | Dave | :) |
| 03:14.04 | Dave | Indeed. |
| 03:14.10 | Dave | In the meantime, needs more beer. :p |
| 03:14.21 | ieatlint | there will be some advantages with an x based system over android, such as fennec... but people like usability, and shr so far... yeah.. hehe |
| 03:14.29 | ieatlint | beer good |
| 03:14.38 | ieatlint | i am drinking rumless egg nog, however |
| 03:16.04 | Dave | bleh? |
| 03:16.12 | Dave | Everything about that is wrong? |
| 03:16.56 | ieatlint | hah |
| 03:17.09 | ieatlint | i like egg nog, and i don't want to be intoxicated at the moment |
| 03:17.31 | ieatlint | for someone who has to remember to eat, it's a good source of calories :P |
| 03:19.04 | *** join/#openmoko lewis (n=lewis@189.120.110.183) |
| 03:20.04 | Dave | :D |
| 03:20.09 | Dave | better than lint ;p |
| 03:21.04 | lewis | yo |
| 03:21.13 | *** join/#openmoko Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 03:21.49 | lewis | I Installed 1130 testing image |
| 03:22.40 | lewis | sometimes when it is in suspend and rings the screen still in black |
| 03:22.54 | *** join/#openmoko olv (n=olvaffe@122-116-62-89.HINET-IP.hinet.net) |
| 03:22.56 | lewis | and I am not able to answer |
| 03:23.35 | lewis | just to report |
| 03:23.38 | lewis | thank you |
| 03:26.48 | *** join/#openmoko swc|666 (n=swc|666@unaffiliated/swc666/x-4934821) |
| 03:27.41 | ieatlint | heh, and after drinking 800 calories in 15min, i oddly don't feel too fantastic :P |
| 03:28.19 | Dave | :D |
| 03:28.23 | Dave | haha win |
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| 03:34.24 | pjz | couple of posts on one of the ML say that koolu has their android stuff up |
| 03:35.32 | lewis | Andriod is able to answer a call after last image? |
| 03:35.50 | pjz | dunno - one of the things koolu was working on was the onscreen kbd, not sure if they finished it |
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| 05:13.38 | Sargun | Hello, anyone here have a pulse? |
| 05:13.48 | rooly | a what? |
| 05:13.53 | Sargun | nevermind. |
| 05:14.01 | Sargun | Would anyone here pay for milestones? |
| 05:14.33 | rooly | nah, maybe cornerstones tho |
| 05:14.38 | Sargun | heh. |
| 05:15.02 | Dave | Coverstones? |
| 05:15.06 | Dave | :D |
| 05:15.30 | Dave | and maybe a fucking gravestone for 2008.X |
| 05:15.33 | Sargun | bounties? |
| 05:15.46 | rooly | has anyone managed to get bt headsets working with qte? |
| 05:17.56 | vininim_ | deja vu |
| 05:19.07 | vininim_ | wow, my bedroom sucks.In bathroom FR got fix in 5 minutes. |
| 05:19.51 | Sargun | haha |
| 05:27.06 | KenYoung | Sargun, I would pay into a bounty fund for a milestone which represented concrete progress towards a working phone. For example, a distribution with rock-solid suspend/resume. |
| 05:27.37 | Sargun | KenYoung, That's a macrobounty. |
| 05:27.38 | rooly | i would prefer a programmable pmu |
| 05:27.45 | Sargun | PMU? |
| 05:27.48 | KenYoung | Sargun, I'd be willing to kick a K$ into such a fund. |
| 05:27.58 | Sargun | K$? a grand? |
| 05:27.59 | rooly | well, something that could wake up dynamically |
| 05:28.03 | KenYoung | Sargun, Yup. |
| 05:28.14 | rooly | instead of just pushing the power button, have a set time to wake up or turn on |
| 05:28.32 | Sargun | rooly, that's really hard with our current hardware. |
| 05:28.38 | rooly | i know it is |
| 05:28.57 | Sargun | we'd need some sort of offboard micro. |
| 05:29.05 | KenYoung | Sargun, If that's a macrobounty - what sort of bounty goal did you have in mind? |
| 05:29.19 | rooly | i realize, sargun. it's a design flaw |
| 05:29.28 | *** join/#openmoko swc|666 (n=swc|666@unaffiliated/swc666/x-4934821) |
| 05:29.40 | Sargun | KenYoung, An app? |
| 05:29.43 | *** join/#openmoko dwb (n=david@a177027.upc-a.chello.nl) |
| 05:29.46 | rooly | anywho, the mrs. calls, adieu, i say, adieu |
| 05:29.51 | *** part/#openmoko rooly (n=rooly@130.70.12.164) |
| 05:30.03 | DocScrutinizer2 | Sargun: rooly: wake on hwtimer is supported on our hw |
| 05:30.04 | KenYoung | Sargun, An Ap I can do myself. |
| 05:31.13 | Sargun | ah. |
| 05:31.21 | DocScrutinizer2 | Sargun: rooly: no design flaw, no need for additional micro |
| 05:31.24 | Sargun | KenYoung, Hmm. |
| 05:31.38 | Sargun | DocScrutinizer, I thought if you put into deep sleep we can't do hwtimers |
| 05:32.01 | DocScrutinizer2 | the hwclock lives in PMU chip |
| 05:32.12 | Sargun | ah. |
| 05:32.15 | DocScrutinizer2 | can wake PMU any time |
| 05:33.02 | DocScrutinizer2 | and so will the whole system |
| 05:33.51 | DocScrutinizer2 | ((if resume succeeds, that is)) XD |
| 05:35.17 | *** join/#openmoko Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) |
| 05:36.20 | DocScrutinizer2 | if recent bootloader, you can check for wake-reason in /sys and tell you got an alarm from hw-clock |
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| 05:54.20 | slaxxin | 50 dollars a year man |
| 05:54.35 | slaxxin | android suck |
| 05:55.40 | KenYoung | slaxxin, What are you referring to that costs $50 a year? |
| 05:57.02 | slaxxin | http://koolu.com/Signup/Google-Apps-Features.html |
| 05:59.47 | KenYoung | slaxxin, That's bizarre. Is that stuff which is supposed to ride atop their Android port on the Freerunner? |
| 06:01.51 | KenYoung | How do they get the right to sell access to things like gmial? |
| 06:01.58 | KenYoung | (gmail) |
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| 06:59.00 | gurugentoo | how do you bring up the shutdown menu in the current shr? |
| 07:05.48 | gecco | good morning |
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| 07:33.00 | gurugentoo | o wow the alarm app actually is usable with suspend!! |
| 07:33.15 | gurugentoo | I love you guys |
| 07:33.51 | mani|work | should i join cdevel if i got problems with compiling(i didn't change something)? |
| 07:37.20 | Sargun | compiling what |
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| 07:39.17 | mani|work | this openmoko makefile thing |
| 07:42.56 | Sargun | oh |
| 07:42.59 | Sargun | sure, join devel |
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| 08:06.15 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 08:54.41 | bhoj | hello friends ,neos UI is not coming.only battery icon is visible that too in the centre top . what should do to get it working again? |
| 08:55.11 | richy | what distro are you using? |
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| 08:55.22 | bhoj | 2008.8 |
| 08:55.41 | richy | you can always try to delete .e in your home directory |
| 08:56.05 | bhoj | i din get you . |
| 08:57.24 | richy | you have a hidden directory in /home/root. it is called ".e" all the enlightenment/illume things are there.. If yours doesn't come up, there is a chance they changed something recently. Deleting ".e" will bring you back to the default |
| 08:57.38 | hozer | is there an 'xset' command I can run to disable screen blanking? |
| 08:57.46 | hozer | I want it on all the time |
| 08:58.29 | richy | hozer: yes there is, I can't remember, wait a second.. Or disable it using the wrench |
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| 08:59.33 | richy | hozer: I think it it "xset s off" |
| 09:01.03 | richy | hozer: and in addition: xset -dpms |
| 09:01.17 | richy | however, that get's overwritten here by illume |
| 09:02.31 | hozer | hrrm |
| 09:02.56 | hozer | wow |
| 09:03.00 | hozer | firefox is a power hog |
| 09:03.19 | hozer | I need to take a picture of this so you all know what I'm talking about |
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| 09:05.11 | bhoj | richy i have .evolution named folder . i dont have a .e folder |
| 09:06.23 | richy | bhoj: that's strange. Afaik 2008.8 is using illume, too |
| 09:06.56 | richy | bhoj: "/etc/init.d/xserver-nodm restart" |
| 09:07.11 | sleipnir | bhoj: evolution on the phone??? are you sure you're on the right machine? |
| 09:07.16 | bhoj | richy even that din work |
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| 09:07.24 | bhoj | yes |
| 09:07.56 | bhoj | i have 2007.2 which i had ugraded |
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| 09:09.49 | richy | what do you mean by: doesent work: Is it not there, or not doing anything |
| 09:10.21 | bhoj | i meant xsrver restarts and it has the same screen with battery in the top centre |
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| 09:11.43 | richy | how did you upgrade? |
| 09:12.15 | richy | by reflashing, or did you change sources? |
| 09:12.43 | bhoj | i just upgarded only the packages, i did not flash the new images.. . |
| 09:13.20 | richy | I see |
| 09:13.27 | richy | I don't know how well this is supported |
| 09:14.00 | bhoj | any way to just reinstall the xserver ? |
| 09:14.06 | richy | maybe you should consider reflashing using their latest stable image? |
| 09:14.31 | bhoj | if i dont get any solutions i wil do that |
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| 09:15.09 | richy | bhoj: sry for not having a solution... Don't forget to save your data! |
| 09:16.33 | bhoj | ok, i was trying to get google maps on tangogps none of the URL worked. was anyone able to run it recently? |
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| 09:30.42 | hozer | in case any of you were wondering.. http://www.grid.coop/mokometer-v0.1.jpg |
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| 09:39.57 | Sargun | that's neat. |
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| 09:43.55 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03jeremy 07org.openmoko.dev * r63d6f988508c 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: om-locations: Bump up om-locations to latest version. |
| 09:43.56 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03jeremy 07org.openmoko.dev * ra66e8fffe926 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: sane-srcrevs.inc: update qtopia-phone-x11 to the latest version. |
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| 10:44.08 | vishalbhoj | does anyone know which url for google maps on tangogps. i tried the one given on site it did not work ? |
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| 11:39.14 | Wonka | mwester: https://chaos.in-kiel.de/~w/openmoko/zhone-modwonka.png |
| 11:39.36 | Wonka | mwester: "USED" is shown by green bar instead of grey, "BAD" would be shown by a strikethrough |
| 11:39.40 | Wonka | mwester: comments? |
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| 12:00.54 | elserpiente_ | hi |
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| 12:05.18 | elserpiente_ | how get stability gprs connection on FR? |
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| 12:08.34 | lindi- | elserpiente_: i get one with fso-frameworkd |
| 12:08.45 | lindi- | elserpiente_: how does it fail for you? |
| 12:08.54 | elserpiente_ | i use fso too |
| 12:09.48 | elserpiente_ | after gsm turn on i turn on gprs, after few minutes i get org.freesmartphone.GSM.Device.Timeout: device did not answer within 10 seconds |
| 12:10.27 | lindi- | elserpiente_: please script -c 'sudo frameworkd' frameworkd.log |
| 12:10.34 | lindi- | elserpiente_: and enable verbose logging of gsmd |
| 12:10.36 | lindi- | elserpiente_: and enable verbose logging of ogsmd |
| 12:11.11 | elserpiente_ | one sec |
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| 12:15.36 | bhoj | does anyone know which url for google maps on tangogps. i tried the one given on site it did not work ? |
| 12:18.19 | elserpiente_ | bhoj : works |
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| 12:26.25 | elserpiente_ | damn, when it needs, it works :) |
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| 12:28.55 | methril | morning |
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| 12:30.48 | Cervajz | Hello everyone |
| 12:30.50 | bhoj | elser hey im trying to use that url its not working , is this the one http://mt1.google.com/mt?&x=%d&y=%d&zoom=%d? |
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| 12:31.34 | Cervajz | I flashed my Neo by latest testing, but when I istalled mplayer xserver won't start |
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| 12:32.03 | Cervajz | Do you know where is log for X server? I would like know reason of this |
| 12:35.11 | Cervajz | Please could you help me? Thank you |
| 12:35.47 | janrikard | just picked up his freerunner at the postoffice and wonder what distribution is recomended to install to get a somewhat working phone today? |
| 12:36.01 | Fougner_ | !questions |
| 12:36.06 | Fougner_ | nah |
| 12:36.08 | lindi- | janrikard: what are your skills? |
| 12:36.35 | Cervajz | When I try /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm , then screen turn off-on and nothing happened |
| 12:36.53 | Cervajz | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:37.05 | Cervajz | No error message, nothing |
| 12:37.13 | Fougner_ | Cervajz, what distro? |
| 12:37.26 | Fougner_ | try "restart" ? |
| 12:37.28 | Fougner_ | =) |
| 12:37.30 | Cervajz | Fougner_: Latest testing of Om (from today) |
| 12:37.30 | Fougner_ | haha |
| 12:37.33 | Fougner_ | oh |
| 12:37.35 | janrikard | lindi: Im a primary a user, but I have basic skills about programming |
| 12:37.35 | Defiant | janrikard: you read the wiki page about Distributions? |
| 12:37.40 | Fougner_ | well, buggy stuff isn't it? ^^ |
| 12:37.46 | ulf | janrikard: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions#Which_distribution_should_I_use_.3F |
| 12:37.58 | Fougner_ | janrikard, probably you would like to use the Qt distro |
| 12:38.06 | Cervajz | Fougner_: But, it was ok till I installed mplayer from angstrom |
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| 12:38.18 | Fougner_ | Cervajz, reboot the phone then |
| 12:38.18 | Defiant | "SHR, Debian, Gentoo and Android are for people who do not need to ask which distribution they should use." <--nice one |
| 12:38.28 | Cervajz | Fougner_: Done, same |
| 12:38.31 | Fougner_ | oh |
| 12:38.38 | Fougner_ | sounds weid |
| 12:38.51 | lindi- | janrikard: experience in debian? |
| 12:39.13 | Cervajz | Fougner_: There is some "try" of run X but just switch off screen, then on and nothing |
| 12:39.32 | janrikard | lindi: yes, its the default distribution on my computers |
| 12:39.39 | Cervajz | I would like read some log, but I don; |
| 12:39.45 | Cervajz | I would like read some log, but I don't know where is |
| 12:39.52 | ulf | lindi-: he wants a somewhat working phone, so not debian |
| 12:40.00 | lindi- | ulf: gsm calls work :) |
| 12:40.09 | Fougner_ | haha, but the rest? |
| 12:40.27 | Fougner_ | Qt will work with GSM calls, SMS (?) and stuff |
| 12:40.28 | ulf | lindi-: hehe, ok, you'r right |
| 12:40.47 | Fougner_ | anyhow, that's up to him, debian is hax ;D |
| 12:40.58 | lindi- | no no, debian is the most sane :) |
| 12:41.20 | Fougner_ | no hax =D |
| 12:41.27 | Fougner_ | most hax |
| 12:41.31 | Fougner_ | ;) |
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| 12:41.47 | lindi- | since i use normal debian software i know it is not going to break in any unexpected way |
| 12:42.06 | ulf | with debian you have a pc in your pocket but, the phone funktions are ... |
| 12:42.10 | lindi- | the only "new" parts are the kernel and fso-frameworkd |
| 12:42.14 | Fougner_ | takes a lot to fulfill such things as a broken debian install |
| 12:42.35 | Fougner_ | ulf, right |
| 12:42.39 | lindi- | ulf: adequate |
| 12:42.53 | lindi- | as long as I can reliably make and receive calls I am happy :) |
| 12:44.10 | ulf | lindi-: ok, but i would like to have a phonebook to because i can and will not remember all the numbers and thats the first thing missing with debian |
| 12:45.00 | ulf | lindi-: ok there is a hack for the phonebook, but i didn't check if it works, and adding and removing numbers are not possible with the hack |
| 12:45.19 | ulf | s/to/too/ |
| 12:45.32 | *** join/#openmoko kW (n=kW@unaffiliated/kw) |
| 12:47.09 | janrikard | I wount use the openmoko as my primay phone, so phonebook and stuff isnt that importent now |
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| 12:53.15 | lindi- | ulf: i have my own very simple phone UI with phonebook |
| 12:53.33 | lindi- | ulf: i just have them in a text file i can edit with a text editor |
| 12:53.45 | lindi- | ulf: the UI can then search for entries |
| 12:54.26 | janrikard | now i only have 2007.2, is it recomended to flash the phone or run from uSD? should i upgrade to 2008.9 before trying debian or fdom? |
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| 12:57.07 | ulf | lindi-: aha, sounds good, could you call with selecting the number or do you have to dial the number? |
| 12:57.47 | lindi- | ulf: there is a gtk.Entry box which shows completion options as dropdown list |
| 12:57.55 | lindi- | it's all just less than 300 lines of python |
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| 12:58.33 | lindi- | ulf: so you can type the number manually or you can start typing a name and then choose the right option from the list that is opened below the entry box |
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| 12:59.30 | ulf | lindi-: ah, i understand, can i find the application somewhere? |
| 13:00.13 | ulf | lindi-: sounds useful |
| 13:00.16 | janrikard | if someone answerd my question, please write it again |
| 13:00.23 | lindi- | ulf: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/bin/kapula but beware, it is very proof-of-concept |
| 13:00.38 | lindi- | ulf: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/kapula but beware, it is very proof-of-concept |
| 13:01.07 | ulf | janrikard: i would recommend first leave the flash like it is and try everything at the microSD |
| 13:01.15 | lindi- | ulf: it has hardcoded pin code right now :P |
| 13:01.31 | lindi- | maybe i'll add a screenshot |
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| 13:01.46 | janrikard | ulf: ok |
| 13:01.52 | ulf | lindi-: screenshot would be nice ;o) |
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| 13:02.03 | ulf | lindi-: thanks for the link |
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| 13:02.33 | lindi- | ulf: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/kapula.png |
| 13:02.34 | theblackbox | wonders if there are any plans to integrate .tel DNS syste minto OM project? |
| 13:02.45 | theblackbox | http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/tel-them-where-to-find-you/ |
| 13:04.34 | ulf | lindi-: cool, thanks, i will try this out |
| 13:05.07 | lindi- | ulf: note that i wrote this UI since i wanted something really really simple that does the minimal i need and just works reliably |
| 13:05.50 | lindi- | ulf: and one of the requirements i have is to be able to shutdown GSM since I am often in areas where radio transmitters can not be used |
| 13:06.53 | ulf | lindi-: i understand, "simple" ist most time a very good requirement |
| 13:07.17 | ulf | lindi-: i like simple and minimal applications |
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| 13:07.41 | lindi- | ulf: also fso-frameworkd keeps changing all the time so i need to update kapula too when the API changes |
| 13:07.55 | lindi- | i hope it will stabilize soon |
| 13:11.29 | igor321 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSiyh03TV58 |
| 13:11.35 | igor321 | what a great app |
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| 13:18.01 | lindi- | what is it |
| 13:20.39 | Defiant | igor321: lol shouldn't be too hard to write |
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| 13:57.32 | Zoup | how to get raster keyboard on daily testing images ? |
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| 14:11.21 | Wonka | mwester: how do i get the current gps fix status via dbus? requesting a NAV-STATUS packet at zhone localtion startup didn't work |
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| 14:19.51 | Fougner | Hey! |
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| 14:20.47 | Dave | NoHey4U! |
| 14:20.56 | Fougner | uhm, Dave |
| 14:21.01 | Fougner | a quick one: |
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| 14:21.13 | Fougner | can a FR boot without a battery? |
| 14:21.27 | Dave | Not without a powersupply :p |
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| 14:21.35 | Fougner | du |
| 14:21.35 | toggles_w | Dave: !! |
| 14:21.59 | Fougner | I'm not joking, with an USB plugged in, boot or not? |
| 14:22.26 | toggles_w | Fougner: nein! |
| 14:22.30 | alephnull | Fougner: Dead battery ? |
| 14:22.39 | Fougner | no battery at all |
| 14:22.50 | Fougner | it can't then? |
| 14:22.56 | Fougner | not at all? |
| 14:22.58 | toggles_w | Fougner: nein! |
| 14:23.03 | alephnull | tias |
| 14:23.04 | Fougner | you sure? |
| 14:23.17 | toggles_w | Fougner: there is a wiki page saying that some people may have managed it |
| 14:23.34 | Dave | Fougner, no |
| 14:23.35 | Fougner | well, I swear to god, mine just did |
| 14:23.42 | toggles_w | Fougner: there is a wiki page saying that some people may have managed it |
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| 14:24.21 | Fougner | apt reboot toggles_w || reason; error52: stuck in loop |
| 14:24.22 | apt | ACTION pushes toggles_w || reason; error52: stuck in loop's reset button |
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| 14:26.03 | toggles_w | Fougner: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_Hardware_Issues#Can.27t_boot_with_discharged_or_missing_battery |
| 14:26.13 | toggles_w | Some users have reported that Neo FreeRunner is able to boot on USB power alone using the NOR u-boot, thus: press AUX, plug USB power, select boot. Reports of success would be appreciated. |
| 14:27.12 | CM_work | The GTA01 can't do it, but the GTA02 should be able to do it |
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| 14:33.42 | Wonka | mwester: https://chaos.in-kiel.de/~w/openmoko/zhone-modwonka-left.png |
| 14:39.46 | max_posedon | toggles_w, I just tried, instractions works!) |
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| 14:42.44 | ethy_ | hi |
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| 14:53.47 | toggles_w | max_posedon: sweet |
| 14:54.49 | hozer | looks aroudn |
| 14:55.03 | hozer | Is there any way to tell the battery state of charge while it's charging? |
| 14:55.47 | hozer | I left my gta01 on all night with xset s off, and it seems to be dead this mornign |
| 14:56.24 | hozer | my assumption being that although it was being supplied +5v on the usb port, it was only drawing 100ma for trickle charge, and it was using quite a bit more than 100ma |
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| 15:02.17 | Dave | hozer, that is likely :) |
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| 15:07.17 | Zorkman | hozer: which distro are you running? |
| 15:07.27 | Zorkman | if 2008.x tehre is batmon.py that will tell you the status |
| 15:07.46 | Zorkman | of you use fso/shr: more /sys/devices/platform/bq27000-battery.0/power_supply/bat/uevent |
| 15:10.34 | hozer | Zorkman: I'm using shr |
| 15:10.38 | hozer | shr-testing |
| 15:13.18 | Dave | :p |
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| 15:16.30 | Dave | silly toggles |
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| 15:21.05 | hozer | Zorkman: gta01 does not seem to have platform/bq27000-battery |
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| 15:24.53 | Zorkman | hozer: don't know how it works for gta01 |
| 15:27.31 | *** join/#openmoko CVirus (n=Satan@41.196.155.74) |
| 15:32.44 | hozer | my neo by itself (and a 5v 2amp capable wall charger) draws 4.1 watts charging |
| 15:33.47 | hozer | which if the neo is actually using 500ma @5v, that's 2.5 watts |
| 15:33.57 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03tick * r4844 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/opkg_cmd.c: |
| 15:33.58 | CIA-24 | openmoko: opkg: remove the free_error_list wrong usage bug |
| 15:33.58 | CIA-24 | openmoko: Thanks for manitu |
| 15:34.01 | hozer | so the wall plug is something like 60% efficient |
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| 15:39.05 | hozer | what is Qi? new bootloader? |
| 15:39.20 | Wonka | yes |
| 15:39.41 | hozer | what's wrong with u-boot? |
| 15:40.10 | Wonka | nothing - it just takes quite long, because it initializes usb to listen if someone wants to do dfu, and stuff. |
| 15:40.37 | Wonka | it has features which are useful, but force the boot to take longer |
| 15:40.47 | hozer | ah |
| 15:41.10 | hozer | well, it makes me wonder why we're inventing "YABL" (yet another bootloader) |
| 15:41.50 | Wonka | "because we can"? |
| 15:42.09 | hozer | I guess :P |
| 15:43.07 | hozer | what about coreboot? http://www.coreboot.org/Welcome_to_coreboot |
| 15:43.07 | hozer | 3 seconds to linux on a PC |
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| 15:44.00 | Wonka | no idea. ask those with knowledge :) |
| 15:45.01 | hozer | goes to raise a ruckus on the mailing list |
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| 15:47.55 | CM_work | hozer: coreboot is cool, saw a presentation about it on FSCONS |
| 15:47.57 | CM_work | :) |
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| 15:52.00 | hozer | it is quite cool |
| 15:52.36 | hozer | Coreboot actually seems to be getting some traction by security-paranoid types |
| 15:53.29 | hozer | do you know who's put code in your proprietary vendor bios ? |
| 15:54.30 | hozer | from what I have heard, most vendor bioses's have a whole bunch of ancient object code from 15 years ago, and half the source is gone |
| 15:54.53 | Wonka | fun! |
| 15:55.17 | Wonka | coreboot is cool on x86 machines - no discussion |
| 15:55.18 | hozer | so normally FUD (fear uncertainty, doubt) is a bad thing, right? |
| 15:55.22 | *** join/#openmoko mr_nice (n=nice@77.21.130.70) |
| 15:55.51 | Wonka | but i don't know if it has any chance against specially developed bootloaders like u-boot or qi on embedded archs |
| 15:55.58 | hozer | well, I was hearing FUD about proprietary bioses a couple of weeks ago and it was kinda the greatest thing ever |
| 15:56.29 | hozer | qi just inits the hardware and jumps to linux, right? |
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| 15:57.08 | hozer | which sounds suspiciously just like what Coreboot does |
| 15:57.09 | hozer | http://www.coreboot.org/Payloads |
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| 16:01.49 | laen | What bugs me about most of the openmoko stuff around, is that the wheel is beeing reinvented times 10. There _are_ distro's for mobile systems, there _are_ bootloaders.. What we need is applications (a phone application which doeees work), onscreen keyboards, stuff like that. |
| 16:02.06 | laen | But nooo, lets start a completely new distro from scratch which will only work on the Openmoko devices. |
| 16:03.11 | igor321 | for me, openmoko is _really_ close to being usable |
| 16:03.34 | laen | Yeah but we had to go through the whole start-up problems distro's usually have. |
| 16:04.27 | hozer | I think there's probably a point to have a distro fork |
| 16:04.37 | igor321 | what i really want is fso that looks like asu, and that's basically it, working on it as we speak :) |
| 16:04.39 | hozer | but bootloaders go a bit too far |
| 16:04.52 | laen | Yeah forks are good. Starting from scratch is and as you can see was a waste of time. |
| 16:05.06 | laen | Which is why i'm running Qtextended and Debian. |
| 16:05.11 | hozer | heheh |
| 16:05.21 | lindi- | hozer: Qi does not work on x86 |
| 16:05.46 | hozer | when did Qi start existing? |
| 16:05.57 | lindi- | i don't know |
| 16:06.02 | lindi- | hozer: i need my uboot menus :) |
| 16:06.05 | hozer | yeah |
| 16:06.38 | hozer | I've implemented booting a bare linux kernel on PPC several times because the embedded board vendors had a craptastical bios, or one that didn't work at all |
| 16:06.56 | hozer | bios==bootloader in this case |
| 16:07.20 | lindi- | coreboot on x86 has a lot of small things that it needs to do afaik |
| 16:07.33 | hozer | have you compared the Qi and coreboot code? |
| 16:07.45 | lindi- | nope |
| 16:07.49 | hozer | there is a lot of crap that has to be done on x86 |
| 16:08.22 | hozer | which the the arm coreboot version (if it doesn't already exist) will not have to deal with |
| 16:08.36 | hozer | all you do is set up the memory and jump to a linux kernel image |
| 16:09.08 | hozer | and then *maybe* we'd have a damned bootloader that was consistent across more than one CPU architecture |
| 16:09.26 | Wonka | what about this armstrong and openembedded stuff? isn |
| 16:09.37 | Wonka | isn't openmoko built on top of that? |
| 16:10.10 | hozer | wonka: yeah.. I think the distro(s) are sort of a fork of openembedded |
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| 16:13.12 | hozer | But as far as I can tell, Qi is a convenient one-off to get new hardware working and fast booting. But if it becomes it's own project, that seems like a distraction, and a barrier to keep people with experience in other bootloaders (like say coreboot) away from the project |
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| 16:13.22 | SpeedEvil | Oh no. |
| 16:13.29 | SpeedEvil | Qi is an OM bootloader? |
| 16:13.50 | hozer | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qi |
| 16:13.53 | SpeedEvil | sighs at the whole best enemy of good thing. |
| 16:15.04 | SpeedEvil | Fix the damn suspend. |
| 16:15.04 | SpeedEvil | Get that working solidly. |
| 16:15.18 | hozer | Now dammit, If I had another neo and a week, I'd be porting coreboot and have 2 seconds to console setup |
| 16:15.19 | SpeedEvil | That's about 9999* more important for actually using the actual thing as a phone |
| 16:15.26 | CVirus | true |
| 16:15.39 | SpeedEvil | than chopping 40s off boot time. |
| 16:16.01 | CVirus | rebel |
| 16:16.04 | bumbl | SpeedEvil: suspend works reliable here |
| 16:16.04 | CVirus | we want reliable suspend |
| 16:16.07 | CVirus | we want reliable suspend |
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| 16:16.25 | bumbl | but the echo is back |
| 16:16.25 | bumbl | the echo is back |
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| 16:29.11 | slaxxin | whathesam hell |
| 16:31.20 | slaxxin | where is it |
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| 16:32.50 | rustybox | has anyone tried out the new android from Koolu? |
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| 16:45.26 | SpeedEvil | bumbl: reliable as in you can suspend for 48 hours or more? |
| 16:46.26 | bumbl | SpeedEvil: It would be reliable but after 30h the battery is at 0% |
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| 16:52.24 | SpeedEvil | bumbl: that's somewhat low. |
| 16:52.39 | SpeedEvil | bumbl: I'm unsure that's actually suspending to RAM properly. |
| 16:52.49 | SpeedEvil | bumbl: rather than simply stopping the clock. |
| 16:52.58 | SpeedEvil | s/somewhat/very/ |
| 16:54.11 | bumbl | hmm |
| 16:54.17 | bumbl | maybe |
| 16:54.21 | bumbl | using shr |
| 16:54.25 | bumbl | at the moment |
| 16:54.49 | hozer | now.. if I could only have an easy way to measure battery current ;) |
| 16:57.49 | bumbl | hmm I might get myself a multimeter |
| 16:57.59 | bumbl | as I need it anyway |
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| 17:01.12 | SpeedEvil | points at the built in charge meter. |
| 17:01.34 | CIA-24 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r67bdfbbceb38 10/framework/patterns/daemon.py: fix SIGTERM handler in daemon support code |
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| 17:05.46 | hozer | SpeedEvil: how do you read the charge meter when suspended :P |
| 17:06.05 | bumbl | SpeedEvil: which won't work if the battery is dead (which hasn't happened lately) |
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| 17:10.39 | SpeedEvil | bumbl: delta |
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| 18:10.05 | faltantornillos | hi there |
| 18:10.46 | Tig| | hi there |
| 18:10.48 | faltantornillos | I'm developping an app that uses both etk.main() and dbus's mainloop.run() , but they block each other. What can I do? |
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| 18:12.22 | Tig| | erk, probably pray that either raster or mickey|flu|zzZZz wake up :) |
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| 18:12.59 | Tig| | faltantornillos: or try on #openmoko-cdevel where there are more programmers |
| 18:13.46 | faltantornillos | sure, thx |
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| 18:21.18 | caotic | has anyone tried openmoko in the omap3430ldp ? |
| 18:21.39 | slaxxin | why no updated shr? |
| 18:22.48 | sicu | because they're revamping code |
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| 18:34.28 | rooly | okay |
| 18:34.32 | rooly | what the fuck |
| 18:34.41 | rooly | yesterday my neo was working just damn fine as a phone |
| 18:34.47 | rooly | today, it can't receive calls |
| 18:34.54 | Tm_T | rooly: tuesday |
| 18:34.57 | doc|home | of course |
| 18:35.03 | doc|home | position of the moon has changed |
| 18:35.12 | doc|home | things are no longer in alignment |
| 18:35.39 | rooly | lemme rephrase: for the past month, my phone has been working just fine |
| 18:35.43 | rooly | today it decides to stop |
| 18:35.56 | rooly | which...of course...has put me in a bit of hot water with the mrs. |
| 18:36.05 | max_posedon | it's ok, just reboot/reflash) |
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| 18:38.03 | rooly | reboot...tried that 3 times, no luck |
| 18:38.09 | rooly | i guess i'll have to reflash |
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| 19:04.11 | AntonTakk | anyone tried the 2008.x testing branch recently? |
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| 19:09.13 | GNUtoo-desktop | hello, is there an AT command that output the manufacturer and model of the gsm chip? |
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| 19:09.46 | lindi- | GNUtoo-desktop: yeah |
| 19:09.53 | *** join/#openmoko cga (n=cga@94.36.88.11) |
| 19:10.05 | zash | GNUtoo-desktop: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AT_Commands#Section_5.2C_General_Commands |
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| 19:11.13 | GNUtoo-desktop | zash, AT+CGMI and AT+CGMM gives the model and the manufacturer of the phone...not the GSM chip... |
| 19:11.17 | abatrour | hey everyone |
| 19:11.30 | abatrour | is anyone else having problems getting the android image working? |
| 19:11.57 | lindi- | abatrour: why separate image? why not run the android apps on top of your normal OS? |
| 19:12.23 | abatrour | well because i prefer the android image, and it should just be easier |
| 19:12.26 | henkie_ | om testing boots really fast |
| 19:12.35 | henkie_ | to bad it wont wake up after some sleep |
| 19:13.23 | abatrour | i flashed with the latest android images, and it just sits at a black screen forever, the old image from weeks ago worked |
| 19:14.02 | *** join/#openmoko peelooo (n=peeloo@AToulouse-257-1-32-144.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 19:14.13 | AntonTakk | abatrour: have a fat and ext3 partition on the sd card? |
| 19:14.28 | bricode | lindi-: That's actually quite easy to do. I was running Android on top of Debian for some debugging. |
| 19:14.48 | abatrour | yup, my memory card is set up right |
| 19:14.51 | bricode | lindi-: And that's how they got it working on the Nokia...chroot then start an init script. |
| 19:15.04 | lindi- | bricode: yeah |
| 19:15.06 | abatrour | android doesn't have any problem reading a 2gb card does it? |
| 19:15.16 | lindi- | abatrour: which kernel does it use? |
| 19:15.35 | AntonTakk | abatrour: dunno, i only have a 1gig usd |
| 19:15.47 | abatrour | i tried the uImage-tracking, that didn't boot, so i put on uImage-android |
| 19:17.43 | abatrour | looks like android started to copy files over to the sd card, i can see 50mb or so taken up, but it just doesn't boot |
| 19:17.54 | abatrour | is there a way to turn off silent boot mode for android? |
| 19:18.25 | *** join/#openmoko ernst (n=ernst@p57B5D4FA.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:18.30 | ernst | http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=leXUUXOdfYY |
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| 19:19.53 | abatrour | ok, so it looks like it works for other people, just not me... |
| 19:20.04 | rooly | same here, abatrour |
| 19:20.26 | abatrour | i tried 2 different microsd cards too, a 256mb one, and a 2gb |
| 19:20.34 | rooly | oh...waity |
| 19:20.37 | rooly | i just got the splash |
| 19:20.38 | abatrour | formatted with 50mb fat16 and the rest ext2 on both |
| 19:22.09 | ernst | is thera a new android image ? |
| 19:22.16 | ernst | with keyboard ? |
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| 19:23.21 | abatrour | ernst, yes there is |
| 19:23.30 | abatrour | the latest one from today |
| 19:23.38 | ernst | can i have a link, please ? |
| 19:24.30 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=rudi@dsbg-4db5f839.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 19:24.52 | abatrour | http://people.openmoko.org/sean_mcneil/ |
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| 19:26.21 | ernst | thanks |
| 19:26.41 | ernst | 3 hour ago i flash the 2 August image |
| 19:26.46 | abatrour | lol |
| 19:26.49 | abatrour | bad timing :P |
| 19:26.59 | abatrour | well if the new one works for u, let me know. mine wont boot |
| 19:27.06 | ernst | yes |
| 19:27.14 | ernst | does keyboard run ? |
| 19:27.32 | ernst | and does my sim card run android sad i have a incorrect pin |
| 19:30.27 | abatrour | rooly, how did it take for android to boot for u? |
| 19:31.00 | rooly | hmm...a little over a minute i suppose |
| 19:31.35 | abatrour | i've been waiting for oer 20 minutes |
| 19:31.51 | rooly | i figure its probably just luck |
| 19:31.57 | rooly | it didn't work for me last time either |
| 19:33.40 | abatrour | hmm, looked at my other sd card, android didn't even copy anything to the ext2 partition.. |
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| 19:39.28 | henkie_ | opendoom wont start :( |
| 19:39.45 | rooly | sighs |
| 19:39.57 | rooly | android won't be worth the fight its gonna put up |
| 19:40.09 | rooly | not until its more stable than asu will i use android |
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| 19:41.46 | abatrour | i found the very first android image to be the most stable of them all |
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| 19:44.18 | Fougner | hey guys =D |
| 19:44.35 | b0ib0t2 | hey |
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| 19:50.35 | PBeck | ahoi |
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| 19:52.56 | Fougner | yahoo LD |
| 19:52.58 | Fougner | :D* |
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| 19:56.57 | laen | F O U G N E R |
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| 20:13.21 | Fougner_ | LAEN :D |
| 20:15.13 | Fougner_ | I'm going to Austria now |
| 20:15.14 | Fougner_ | =D |
| 20:15.19 | Fougner_ | for some months |
| 20:15.25 | Fougner_ | dunno how much internet there is :P |
| 20:15.58 | Fougner_ | byeeeeee guys |
| 20:16.02 | neldoreth | Fougner_: depends, best you can have is 25/2 mbit |
| 20:16.09 | neldoreth | Fougner_: where in austria? |
| 20:16.59 | *** join/#openmoko cga (n=cga@94.36.88.11) |
| 20:17.01 | Fougner_ | St.Anton, west of Innsbruck |
| 20:17.05 | bumbl | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:17.28 | neldoreth | ah arlberg :D |
| 20:17.51 | bumbl | as st. anton is a tourist magnet i might suggest hsdpa which is more or less cheap, flexible and has an acceptable speed |
| 20:17.57 | neldoreth | the 25/2 costs about 70 euros |
| 20:18.15 | toggles_w | Fougner_: watch out for kangaroos, i hear they are mean |
| 20:18.31 | neldoreth | yeah st. anton is defintly one of the more expensive areas in austria |
| 20:18.52 | TAsn | Fougner_, going skiing? |
| 20:19.05 | Tig| | as I was spending 5 mins tapping out an sms on my FR the other day I was wondering how much of the android codebase is open and how easy would it be to get OM running on a G1.... (I was having keypad envy :) ) |
| 20:19.08 | Fougner_ | TAsn, boarding ;) |
| 20:19.18 | TAsn | haha, I'm a boarder myself |
| 20:19.26 | Fougner_ | bumbl, you live in Austria? |
| 20:19.34 | Fougner_ | toggles_w, lol |
| 20:19.34 | bumbl | Fougner_: believe it or not yes |
| 20:19.41 | neldoreth | Fougner_: i do |
| 20:19.43 | TAsn | I've been in lech before (so iirc I also skied in st. anton) it's a great place ;] |
| 20:19.58 | toggles_w | Fougner_: can you bring me back a KTM? |
| 20:20.02 | TAsn | Fougner_, there's supposed to be wicked snow. |
| 20:20.08 | bumbl | and as I told toggles_w (who lives in Australia) we have plenty of kangaroos here :p |
| 20:20.23 | TAsn | I heard it was snowing all of last week. |
| 20:20.30 | Fougner_ | wow |
| 20:20.36 | bumbl | TAsn: yes and no |
| 20:20.41 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 20:20.59 | TAsn | bumbl, I heard there have been at least 0.5 meter of snow. |
| 20:21.00 | *** join/#openmoko Flyser (n=Flyser@dialin-212-144-071-253.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 20:21.01 | bumbl | most snow was in Carinthia (Kärnten) |
| 20:21.16 | bumbl | 1-1.5 metre snow in a short period of time |
| 20:21.19 | neldoreth | should be arond 1.5m now |
| 20:21.22 | neldoreth | *around |
| 20:21.25 | bumbl | yep |
| 20:21.27 | Fougner_ | yay |
| 20:21.28 | Fougner_ | well |
| 20:21.37 | TAsn | Fougner_, for how long are you going? |
| 20:21.42 | Fougner_ | what about the HSDPA? |
| 20:21.48 | Fougner_ | to april next year |
| 20:21.56 | Fougner_ | about, 5 months =) |
| 20:22.00 | neldoreth | Fougner_: its available, i think 12gb is about 25⬠|
| 20:22.01 | bumbl | TAsn: lech is nice, so is st. anton |
| 20:22.02 | TAsn | btw, check the performances of the moko accelerometers... |
| 20:22.08 | neldoreth | 5 months snow boarding? :| |
| 20:22.15 | Fougner_ | neldoreth, how to buy? |
| 20:22.17 | TAsn | neldoreth, exactly what I was about to ask. |
| 20:22.46 | bumbl | Fougner_: how old are you? if you are under 26 i think |
| 20:22.51 | Fougner_ | 19 |
| 20:22.52 | bumbl | everything gets cheaper |
| 20:22.52 | Fougner_ | =) |
| 20:22.55 | Fougner_ | good |
| 20:22.57 | bumbl | a lot |
| 20:23.00 | Fougner_ | xD |
| 20:23.02 | Fougner_ | even the beer? |
| 20:23.03 | TAsn | Fougner_, oh, you are just a kid ;] |
| 20:23.04 | neldoreth | Fougner_: but there are cheaper ones, i dont know how much traffic you need - you can buy that in several handy stores or in some supermarkets (hofer sells unlocked usb devices) |
| 20:23.08 | bumbl | Fougner_: :p |
| 20:23.08 | TAsn | going with friends? |
| 20:23.12 | Fougner_ | TAsn, yes |
| 20:23.18 | TAsn | man that's wicked. |
| 20:23.25 | neldoreth | Fougner_: try murauer - best beer in austria :P |
| 20:23.26 | TAsn | none of my friends know how to ski ;[ |
| 20:23.28 | Fougner_ | TAsn, what? =P |
| 20:23.35 | Fougner_ | neldoreth, thanks for the tip |
| 20:23.39 | neldoreth | Fougner_: youre welcome |
| 20:23.41 | TAsn | I'm the only boarder around ;\ |
| 20:24.03 | bumbl | if you don't ned hardware you don't have a mindestvertragsdauer |
| 20:24.19 | bumbl | (I don't know the english term) |
| 20:24.44 | neldoreth | mimimum term of agreement or something like that |
| 20:25.02 | bumbl | yeah |
| 20:25.16 | bumbl | if you need around 3gb/month |
| 20:25.25 | bumbl | you'll get that for 9⬠|
| 20:25.26 | Fougner_ | okay, where to buy? |
| 20:25.43 | Fougner_ | I mean, my current operator can't do that, I guess |
| 20:25.52 | Fougner_ | so, buy a SIM in Austria then? |
| 20:25.57 | Fougner_ | which operator? :P |
| 20:26.01 | bumbl | 15gb for 20⬠|
| 20:26.02 | Fougner_ | and use the phone? |
| 20:26.48 | bumbl | operator: if you want it cheap with average quality i would go for drei |
| 20:26.52 | bumbl | hutchinson |
| 20:27.06 | bumbl | but they are only 3g |
| 20:28.15 | bumbl | looked it up: if you use drei: it would cost you 16⬠for 15gb hsdpa per month |
| 20:28.17 | Tig| | oh btw hutchinson SIMs don't work in the freerunner (well mine didn't) |
| 20:28.43 | *** join/#openmoko Longfield (n=valentin@93-248.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 20:29.07 | neldoreth | Fougner_: may you have a internet connection where youre living then? |
| 20:29.10 | bumbl | Tig|: they work after the #666 fix which doesn't matter because hutchinson uses 3g only |
| 20:29.29 | *** join/#openmoko alphabeat (n=nick@123-243-190-207.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 20:30.01 | Tig| | bumbl: ah, not tried it recently and I only wanted to read the sms store off the sim :) |
| 20:30.16 | *** join/#openmoko jserv-- (n=jserv@118-169-99-112.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 20:30.47 | bumbl | neldoreth: let me guess: you are from around Murau because you suggest Murauer is the best beer |
| 20:30.51 | leinir | It's kinda silly... android doesn't know how to read the contacts on my sim, but all the other distros do ;) |
| 20:31.07 | neldoreth | bumbl: yeah its about 1 hour driving, but its the best :P |
| 20:32.48 | nihil | leinir, sean_mcneils android or the koolu one? |
| 20:33.16 | leinir | sean's :) |
| 20:33.36 | *** join/#openmoko jserv--- (n=jserv@118-169-96-206.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 20:33.40 | nihil | ic ;) |
| 20:33.55 | nihil | anyone tried out koolu build? |
| 20:34.06 | leinir | It also seems that it doesn't much like sound... at all :) |
| 20:34.44 | *** join/#openmoko c0d3x42 (n=vince@78-86-164-151.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 20:35.13 | nihil | to bad ;) |
| 20:35.15 | leinir | Crashes when i try and turn on Audible selection, just restarts settings whenever i try setting a ringtone... |
| 20:35.26 | leinir | Hehe, yeah :) |
| 20:36.52 | nihil | well i guess most of the issues are fixed at the koolu source. however getting it onto the phone is the problem |
| 20:37.40 | *** join/#openmoko cga (n=cga@94.36.88.11) |
| 20:38.12 | *** join/#openmoko mmp (n=mmp@158.195.163.21) |
| 20:38.23 | bumbl | Fougner_: as neldoreth said, if you don't need that much traffic get a prepaid hsdpa sim card at hofer (the austrian equivalent to aldi) |
| 20:38.43 | mmp | tifereth: hello; sorry I wasn't online yesterday, I forgot my laptop's adapter at work... |
| 20:39.02 | tifereth | ;-) not that big problem |
| 20:41.39 | *** join/#openmoko Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 20:41.52 | *** join/#openmoko kirun (n=kirun@78-86-140-200.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 20:44.07 | Fougner_ | neldoreth, I don't know if we have internet access or not. but I'll see if I can buy a prepaid hsdpa sim card somewhere. it's a usual mobile SIM right? |
| 20:44.20 | Fougner_ | mmp, hey =D |
| 20:44.31 | mmp | Fougner_: hi :) |
| 20:44.48 | Fougner_ | bumbl, okay, so the phone will act as the gateway to internet then? =) |
| 20:44.50 | neldoreth | Fougner_: yes it is, but you need a specific modem for it |
| 20:44.55 | Fougner_ | oh |
| 20:44.58 | neldoreth | or you can use a phone |
| 20:45.02 | Fougner_ | good |
| 20:45.05 | Fougner_ | G900i =) |
| 20:45.12 | Fougner_ | and Freerunner didn't work you said? |
| 20:45.50 | neldoreth | you can do following: connect to the internet with a phone and connect via bluetooth to it then (with the fr) |
| 20:45.53 | Fougner_ | I think the prices for HSDPA is quite low though.. here in Sweden the rates are about 1,5 / MB =) |
| 20:46.05 | neldoreth | cause the fr doesnt support those afaik |
| 20:46.20 | *** join/#openmoko cga (n=cga@94.36.88.11) |
| 20:46.30 | neldoreth | but the normal i-connection is cheaper than in austria, isnt it? |
| 20:46.40 | Fougner_ | i-connection? |
| 20:46.44 | Fougner_ | internet? |
| 20:46.44 | neldoreth | internet connection |
| 20:46.46 | neldoreth | yes |
| 20:47.15 | Fougner_ | well, I've got ADSL, 24/1, actually, it's 16/~2 |
| 20:47.27 | Fougner_ | price, around 35/month |
| 20:47.42 | neldoreth | ok here you pay for something like that about 70 |
| 20:47.53 | Fougner_ | yay |
| 20:47.57 | Fougner_ | what about 100/100? ;) |
| 20:48.03 | neldoreth | not available :P |
| 20:48.06 | Fougner_ | haha |
| 20:48.13 | neldoreth | maximum is 25/2 |
| 20:48.25 | Fougner_ | well, now I know you and bumbl live in Austria.. good to know, =) |
| 20:48.31 | max_posedon | In my contry 1Mbit ADSL costs near 1'000$, your are very lucky... |
| 20:48.40 | Fougner_ | max_posedon, where do you live? |
| 20:48.47 | max_posedon | Belarus, Minsk |
| 20:48.51 | F4t | :) |
| 20:49.10 | Fougner_ | hmm, something tells me it's close to Russia |
| 20:49.22 | F4t | Here 1Mbit ADSL is around 20$ |
| 20:49.32 | Fougner_ | F4t, where? =P |
| 20:49.32 | max_posedon | Fougner_, yes) |
| 20:49.44 | Fougner_ | ok |
| 20:49.55 | F4t | Fougner_, israel |
| 20:50.30 | Fougner_ | F4t, oh, Don't mess with the Zohan then ;) |
| 20:50.36 | F4t | Heh |
| 20:50.53 | F4t | wheres 35 euro/month? |
| 20:51.08 | F4t | what 24/1 16/2? |
| 20:52.17 | Fougner_ | F4t, it should be 24/1, for about 35 |
| 20:52.39 | Fougner_ | but the actual speed is around 16 down |
| 20:52.53 | Fougner_ | oh, maybe I'm wrong, it's up to 24/2,5Mbit |
| 20:52.58 | Fougner_ | but I get like 16/2 |
| 20:53.44 | Fougner_ | neldoreth, I've heard a lot about the austrian people. you don't want to know :P |
| 20:54.07 | neldoreth | Fougner_: tell us :P |
| 20:54.09 | bumbl | i get conventional telephone network, 2 mobile sims, adsl 2mbit / don't know upload flat, and iptv for 24⬠which is quite cheap |
| 20:54.16 | bumbl | max_posedon: that sucks |
| 20:55.00 | bumbl | Fougner_: you don't mess with zohan was lame |
| 20:55.09 | bumbl | old jokes nothing new and a weird story line |
| 20:55.11 | zash | you don't mess with the zash |
| 20:55.41 | Fougner_ | bumbl, haha, I don't know anything about Israel :O |
| 20:56.07 | max_posedon | bumbl, hm... yes... But, I don't know what do you do with your YYMbit) |
| 20:56.19 | bumbl | Fougner_: what have you heard about austrians? we are all facists? |
| 20:56.40 | toggles_w | bumbl: nein |
| 20:56.53 | bumbl | max_posedon: 2Mbit ... loading down linux distrubutions, openmoko images, etc fast enough for me |
| 20:56.59 | Fougner_ | neldoreth, this is what I've heard from other people visiting St Anton and stuff. "they're very grumpy (sour)" |
| 20:57.10 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 20:57.21 | zash | will get 100Mbps this month |
| 20:57.23 | zash | <3 |
| 20:57.29 | Fougner_ | bumbl, don't speak for me now |
| 20:57.35 | zash | .se ftw |
| 20:57.37 | neldoreth | Fougner_: yeah may cause st. anton is full of tourists and there is nothing else there :P |
| 20:57.52 | Fougner_ | neldoreth, that's what I thought too |
| 20:57.58 | bumbl | more speed is good if you can get it cheap, 54k sucked |
| 20:58.19 | Fougner_ | max_posedon, I'm into piracy.. that's what I use my YY-mbit for =) |
| 20:58.38 | bumbl | hmm ... *cough* sweden *cough* |
| 20:58.42 | Fougner_ | :D |
| 20:58.45 | Fougner_ | of course |
| 20:58.48 | max_posedon | bumbl, I have some kind of evening/nigth unlim (256kbit) since 18'00 till 9'00 for 40$/month, so I donwnload all at night. Not a big deal, but I can't donwload a lot of films/etc) |
| 20:59.14 | Fougner_ | bumbl, yeaaah exactley |
| 20:59.19 | Fougner_ | love sweden |
| 20:59.24 | *** join/#openmoko christooss (n=matic@BSN-142-118-233.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) |
| 20:59.34 | Fougner_ | bumbl, how's the piracy in Austria? |
| 20:59.40 | bumbl | piratebiarn will get your goverment down sooner or later |
| 20:59.51 | Fougner_ | bumbl, piratebyrån? =) |
| 20:59.58 | bumbl | Fougner_: yep |
| 21:00.09 | Fougner_ | ehehe |
| 21:00.13 | bumbl | piracy in Austria ... |
| 21:00.13 | Fougner_ | piratbyrån* |
| 21:00.18 | Fougner_ | yeah |
| 21:00.37 | Fougner_ | I'll bring some downloaded movies and stuff |
| 21:00.38 | bumbl | my former isp sent me an email that it is legal to download stuff |
| 21:00.48 | bumbl | and i should download more |
| 21:01.02 | neldoreth | oO? |
| 21:01.11 | Fougner_ | bumbl, my current ISP has sent me one too |
| 21:01.25 | Fougner_ | no, I mean, illegal :P |
| 21:01.51 | bumbl | download ... tolerated |
| 21:01.55 | Fougner_ | okay |
| 21:01.58 | Fougner_ | gooood |
| 21:01.58 | Fougner_ | xD |
| 21:02.12 | Fougner_ | linux is allowed too I guess? |
| 21:02.15 | bumbl | upload ... sometimes problems |
| 21:02.18 | Fougner_ | oh |
| 21:02.22 | Fougner_ | what's the difference :P |
| 21:02.24 | Fougner_ | haha |
| 21:02.33 | Fougner_ | I have to upload to get downloads |
| 21:02.36 | Fougner_ | nah |
| 21:02.55 | Fougner_ | got good ratio already |
| 21:03.13 | Fougner_ | like, 1TB, 5.0 ratio |
| 21:03.15 | Fougner_ | 1TB up* |
| 21:03.22 | bumbl | Fougner_: p2p ... not good |
| 21:03.26 | Fougner_ | oh |
| 21:03.32 | bumbl | if use for illegal things |
| 21:03.36 | Fougner_ | ayayay |
| 21:03.44 | bumbl | used |
| 21:03.59 | Fougner_ | what else, except p2p, to download stuff then? =S |
| 21:04.25 | F4t | Fougner_, ull have to explain the whole 24/1 16/2 thing? whats the numbers? |
| 21:04.44 | neldoreth | 24mbit upload / 1mbit download |
| 21:04.50 | Fougner_ | lol |
| 21:04.55 | Fougner_ | neldoreth, reverse |
| 21:05.01 | Fougner_ | switch* |
| 21:05.09 | F4t | ow, thats huge speeds... |
| 21:05.12 | Fougner_ | 24Mbit download, 1 Upload |
| 21:05.25 | F4t | we have here 8/2 tops |
| 21:05.26 | Fougner_ | and that's just us living a bit from the "city" |
| 21:05.28 | neldoreth | ah yeah sorry |
| 21:05.43 | Fougner_ | people in the central city can have 100/100 in their apartment |
| 21:06.07 | F4t | jeez |
| 21:06.09 | Fougner_ | I've got an xbox with debian on, at my friend's place.. he's got 30/30 |
| 21:06.18 | Fougner_ | running rtorrent =) |
| 21:06.47 | Fougner_ | I can upload some GBs there ;) |
| 21:06.56 | F4t | ;) |
| 21:07.07 | *** join/#openmoko peelooo (n=peeloo@AToulouse-152-1-4-84.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 21:07.08 | F4t | and i can download them at high speed from there ... :D |
| 21:07.25 | Fougner_ | haha |
| 21:07.27 | Fougner_ | yeah right :P |
| 21:08.31 | Fougner_ | F4t, what protocol do you prefer? |
| 21:08.35 | Fougner_ | FPT? SCP? |
| 21:09.31 | *** join/#openmoko viq (n=viq@unaffiliated/viq) |
| 21:09.33 | *** join/#openmoko merriam (n=merriam@wmerriam.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 21:10.00 | *** join/#openmoko merriam (n=merriam@wmerriam.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 21:12.24 | *** join/#openmoko sebbs (n=sebbs@145.Red-83-33-180.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 21:12.31 | sebbs | how is the inputting of text on this device |
| 21:12.41 | sebbs | i am thinking about buying one but i am not quite sure |
| 21:13.30 | max_posedon | if you think you won't like this device |
| 21:13.49 | sebbs | ? |
| 21:14.23 | max_posedon | "if you are still thinking" - You will not like this device, |
| 21:14.27 | sebbs | i like the fact i can run apt-get on it, and run most of the applications i run on my laptop nativly without having to use crappy ical exporters etc |
| 21:14.32 | max_posedon | first of all, it isn't and user ready) |
| 21:14.41 | *** join/#openmoko jserv-- (n=jserv@118-169-96-206.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 21:14.48 | sebbs | max_posedon: define user ready |
| 21:15.26 | sebbs | i know its still in development, i have no problem with that, i would prolly even contribute if i was to buy one. |
| 21:15.55 | max_posedon | you can call, you can recive calls(if you are lucky), you can send sms(latin only). |
| 21:16.11 | max_posedon | the end, all other things are still in development |
| 21:16.12 | sebbs | if you are lucky? |
| 21:16.19 | sebbs | latin is fine with me |
| 21:16.29 | sebbs | as long as i can call on it thats ok |
| 21:16.29 | flexd | Uh, this is probably going to be a somewhat stupid question (because i'm sort of assuming the answer is exactly what you would assume with a developer phone) |
| 21:16.30 | flexd | but |
| 21:16.38 | rooly | yeah...its kinda determined by odin and posiedon |
| 21:16.51 | flexd | There's a sticker of sorts over one of the two t6 torq screws to remove the front lid of my FR. |
| 21:16.53 | sebbs | my issues with the phone have purely to do with the fact that i want to input alot of text |
| 21:17.16 | flexd | Does that mean i have some sort of warranty i'd break if i remove the cover or is it just there for some other purpose? |
| 21:17.18 | sebbs | and it seems to have a touchscreen, i have small fingers so thats ok, but i am wondering about how much i can see on the screen while typing since the keyboard would take up spcace |
| 21:17.22 | sebbs | space |
| 21:17.58 | Fougner_ | sebbs, get a BT-keyboard |
| 21:18.09 | sebbs | Fougner_: what about battery that would suck to have to think about battery |
| 21:18.11 | rooly | well, you won't be able to write any code on your phone |
| 21:18.13 | Fougner_ | it's a big screen, but if you want to text a lot, it's like hell |
| 21:18.28 | sebbs | and how would you type and hold the phone the same time |
| 21:18.29 | Fougner_ | sebbs, nothing good there either |
| 21:18.38 | sebbs | Fougner_: ? |
| 21:18.53 | Fougner_ | sebbs, one hand holding the phone, one hand typing with a stylus pen |
| 21:19.05 | sebbs | i meant with a bt keyboarc |
| 21:19.07 | sebbs | d |
| 21:19.19 | Fougner_ | oh |
| 21:19.21 | Fougner_ | haha |
| 21:19.22 | *** join/#openmoko ||Leto|| (n=tomboy64@e178027063.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 21:19.24 | sebbs | :) |
| 21:19.40 | Fougner_ | well, as said, a developer phone, nothing to write code out "on the field" |
| 21:19.43 | *** join/#openmoko RedFlash (n=RedFlash@host175-42-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 21:19.49 | sebbs | could you do me a favour and run apt-cache search wyrd |
| 21:19.52 | sebbs | on your phone |
| 21:19.56 | Fougner_ | nope |
| 21:19.58 | Fougner_ | :) |
| 21:19.58 | sebbs | is that package avalible/ |
| 21:20.15 | bumbl | apt-cache |
| 21:20.19 | Fougner_ | probably you will use another distro than I am |
| 21:20.21 | bumbl | error no debian available |
| 21:20.25 | sebbs | Fougner_: ok |
| 21:20.27 | bumbl | :p |
| 21:20.30 | Fougner_ | hehe |
| 21:20.36 | max_posedon | sebbs, I suggest you install qemu neo emulator, and try all you want there |
| 21:20.39 | sebbs | but you use debian packages |
| 21:20.46 | rooly | if you become handy with the keyboard, you'll be able to type using qtopia or asu rather easily |
| 21:20.47 | sebbs | max_posedon: ah great |
| 21:21.02 | Fougner_ | sebbs, for the debian you can install all the ARM packages |
| 21:21.03 | sebbs | rooly: can you like edit text in vi easy? |
| 21:21.14 | sebbs | Fougner_: thats great :D |
| 21:21.17 | Fougner_ | but still, there will be work to get some things to work =) |
| 21:21.23 | sebbs | Fougner_: that means i can compile stuff if its not there |
| 21:21.37 | Fougner_ | sebbs, I'm no expert, but I guess so |
| 21:21.58 | sebbs | Fougner_: well i started using linux back when i was 14, i could not get my soundcard working for like 6 months |
| 21:22.11 | sebbs | im ok with that |
| 21:22.26 | max_posedon | )) |
| 21:22.43 | sebbs | i get a bit crazy fro mthinking about compiling my own kernel on my phone |
| 21:22.59 | sebbs | "yeah i cant call cos my cpu load is too high, im compiling my kernel" |
| 21:23.07 | sebbs | its appealing |
| 21:23.13 | *** join/#openmoko badcloud (i=50ca6c12@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-93017d0ea9509dd9) |
| 21:23.20 | jonkristian | lol |
| 21:23.29 | max_posedon | kernel isn't a problem, the biggest problem is 640x480 for your gui applications |
| 21:23.40 | max_posedon | pidgin for example looks *very* ugly |
| 21:23.42 | badcloud | apt, how old are you? |
| 21:23.42 | apt | 900 ... like Yoda ... |
| 21:23.42 | sebbs | ?? it has 640x480?? |
| 21:23.49 | jonkristian | sebbs: that'll be my new voicemail message |
| 21:23.53 | max_posedon | sebbs, yes |
| 21:23.53 | sebbs | wow thats better then i thought |
| 21:23.57 | sebbs | im just gonna use terminal anyway |
| 21:23.58 | sebbs | and mutt |
| 21:24.01 | sebbs | rawr |
| 21:24.08 | sebbs | and vi |
| 21:24.13 | sebbs | and links |
| 21:24.22 | sebbs | and remind+wyrd |
| 21:24.29 | jonkristian | nice quality apps:) |
| 21:24.32 | sebbs | yea |
| 21:24.39 | sebbs | thats the only reason i am willing to sell my phone i have now |
| 21:24.46 | sebbs | cos i hate ics files |
| 21:24.58 | sebbs | i have symbian on my phone its really sucky |
| 21:25.09 | flexd | Im guessing since i dont have a guitar pick, some sort of flat object would work? Like a credit card? |
| 21:25.17 | sebbs | i have to crack stuff(!!) i have not cracked stuff for like since windows 95 i think |
| 21:26.01 | sebbs | im gonna install that emulator thing and try it out |
| 21:26.16 | jonkristian | someone should create a ncurses phone app, with adressbook and dialing and stuff |
| 21:26.22 | sebbs | i would go back to console for ever |
| 21:26.30 | sebbs | there are |
| 21:26.34 | sebbs | oh |
| 21:26.37 | sebbs | dialing |
| 21:26.41 | sebbs | haha that would be cool |
| 21:26.43 | max_posedon | hm... neo it's great toy anyway) may be it's sometimes works bad, but it relly interesting) |
| 21:26.50 | sebbs | and python runs on it |
| 21:27.01 | sebbs | perfectly with all the libs |
| 21:27.07 | jonkristian | sebbs: yeah like sky's the limit, get contact lists, receiving and dialing |
| 21:27.13 | jonkristian | text messages etc. |
| 21:27.18 | sebbs | sweet |
| 21:27.26 | sebbs | and you could build amazing syncing stuff |
| 21:27.33 | sebbs | when you get on your network, magic would happend |
| 21:27.37 | sebbs | scripts would start |
| 21:27.40 | sebbs | cronjobs would run |
| 21:27.42 | sebbs | ^^ |
| 21:27.53 | sebbs | when is the next openmoko coming? |
| 21:28.04 | sebbs | or is this one gonna be the one for a while? |
| 21:28.11 | max_posedon | when you prepared it for us) |
| 21:28.36 | jonkristian | ooh yeah, it's practically all there though |
| 21:28.46 | jonkristian | except maybe the dialer part |
| 21:29.26 | sebbs | i wonder where i would get the phone though |
| 21:32.05 | *** join/#openmoko emonkey (n=emonkey@static-pro-212-101-27-121.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 21:34.37 | *** join/#openmoko netx (n=rlange@n1-26-67.dhcp.drexel.edu) |
| 21:35.32 | *** join/#openmoko richy (n=Richy@77.23.96.1) |
| 21:36.32 | Fougner_ | jonkristian, HAHAH |
| 21:36.38 | Fougner_ | mine voicemail too ;) |
| 21:36.45 | *** join/#openmoko mickey|leipzig (n=mickey@92.117.25.38) |
| 21:37.35 | *** join/#openmoko valos[fr] (n=valos@mar92-6-82-227-150-198.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 21:40.11 | jonkristian | Fougner_: :) |
| 21:40.31 | Fougner_ | jonkristian, :D:D |
| 21:40.51 | jonkristian | The Om.testing stuff, man, good stuff |
| 21:41.03 | sebbs | can you really sit on your phone and chat? |
| 21:41.06 | sebbs | does it work well? |
| 21:41.26 | jonkristian | sebbs: depends on how big an a** you got:D |
| 21:41.31 | Fougner_ | sebbs, no, at least please hold it in your hand, |
| 21:41.34 | sebbs | hey does cellwriter work? |
| 21:41.39 | Fougner_ | jonkristian, crap, you're too quick |
| 21:41.41 | *** join/#openmoko rick_ (n=rick@ip246-182-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) |
| 21:41.49 | jonkristian | Fougner_: i know |
| 21:42.01 | sebbs | Fougner_: atleast please hold waht in my hand |
| 21:42.01 | Fougner_ | :P |
| 21:42.08 | Fougner_ | sebbs, the phone.. |
| 21:42.17 | sebbs | where would i get one to hold? |
| 21:42.18 | Fougner_ | you're not supposed to sit on it ;D |
| 21:42.26 | sebbs | sit on it? |
| 21:42.29 | sebbs | u high boy? |
| 21:42.45 | Fougner_ | <sebbs> can you really sit on your phone and chat? |
| 21:42.52 | sebbs | ah |
| 21:42.53 | jonkristian | lol, he didn't get it |
| 21:42.55 | Fougner_ | NO, sebbs, YOU are =) |
| 21:42.57 | sebbs | that is really funny |
| 21:43.02 | jonkristian | sebbs: yes, we know |
| 21:43.04 | Fougner_ | yeah, somewhat boring too |
| 21:43.05 | sebbs | because 1# yes i am high |
| 21:43.08 | Fougner_ | HAHA |
| 21:43.10 | sebbs | 2. its grammar |
| 21:43.17 | sebbs | in my language you say "sit on the phone" |
| 21:43.26 | Fougner_ | sebbs, what language? |
| 21:43.28 | sebbs | perhaps you dont in english |
| 21:43.32 | sebbs | swedish |
| 21:43.41 | Fougner_ | nej sebbs , man säger inte, "sitta på telefonen" |
| 21:43.42 | jonkristian | In my language i say "sit on my p****" |
| 21:43.46 | sebbs | de go man visst |
| 21:43.50 | sebbs | han sitter pa telefonen |
| 21:44.07 | sebbs | if a person is busy talking |
| 21:44.10 | Fougner_ | väldigt mycket slang i det, äru från Stockholm eller? ;) |
| 21:44.19 | sebbs | haha yes i am ^^ |
| 21:44.21 | jonkristian | Vi sier, han sitter i telefonen, høres forsåvidt like rart ut:D |
| 21:44.38 | Fougner_ | gotcha! |
| 21:44.46 | sebbs | skanidnaver |
| 21:44.46 | Fougner_ | haha |
| 21:45.01 | sebbs | and its not telefonen |
| 21:45.03 | sebbs | its luren |
| 21:45.08 | flexd | :o |
| 21:45.08 | Fougner_ | bleh |
| 21:45.09 | sebbs | han sitter pa luren |
| 21:45.12 | Fougner_ | å det heter "reven" |
| 21:45.16 | flexd | FR with proper screen protector = aweome :D |
| 21:45.16 | Fougner_ | inte räven |
| 21:45.22 | sebbs | revare |
| 21:45.28 | Fougner_ | flexd, how did you do? =D |
| 21:45.29 | flexd | Norske folk faktisk? :o |
| 21:45.42 | *** part/#openmoko dwb (n=david@a177027.upc-a.chello.nl) |
| 21:45.44 | sebbs | jag har varit i nordnorge |
| 21:45.59 | Fougner_ | sebbs, jag har varit i nordSthlm |
| 21:46.02 | flexd | Fougner_, kjøpte screen protector fra clas ohlson til 39kr. |
| 21:46.04 | lindi- | flexd: i wish there was somebody who could install the screen protector for me properly |
| 21:46.07 | flexd | Det ble bra. |
| 21:46.13 | sebbs | Fougner_: botkyrka stylee |
| 21:46.19 | flexd | lindi-, it took me two attempts here :/ |
| 21:46.24 | lindi- | flexd: jag betalade bara 9 EUR |
| 21:46.30 | flexd | only thing i need now is proper software and battery life :D |
| 21:46.35 | sebbs | screen protector? |
| 21:46.39 | lindi- | flexd: did you remove it after a few days? |
| 21:46.49 | flexd | lindi-, i attached it like 5 seconds ago |
| 21:46.51 | flexd | so no, not yet. |
| 21:46.54 | lindi- | flexd: ok |
| 21:47.01 | lindi- | flexd: extra battery is easiest solution |
| 21:47.03 | Fougner_ | lindi-, lol, 9EUR = 90kr |
| 21:47.05 | sebbs | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:47.09 | sebbs | funny |
| 21:47.15 | lindi- | Fougner_: i have http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.3060 |
| 21:47.16 | lindi- | Rechargeable USB Emergency Power Backup Pack 2400mAh $14.43 |
| 21:47.23 | Wonka | aaaaargh. i am honestly thinking about disabling ogpsd, ripping it out of frameworkd and running it externally from frameworkd. |
| 21:47.42 | sebbs | whats the battery time on your moko irl |
| 21:47.45 | sebbs | with apps running etc |
| 21:47.50 | lindi- | Fougner_: i'm not really up to date with those currencies :) |
| 21:48.04 | Fougner_ | lindi-, xD |
| 21:48.10 | lindi- | Wonka: i disabled everything i could from frameworkd |
| 21:48.42 | Fougner_ | lindi-, finnish? |
| 21:48.46 | lindi- | Fougner_: yeah |
| 21:48.47 | Wonka | lindi-: is there some gypsy implementation using ubx besides frameworkd? |
| 21:48.58 | lindi- | Wonka: i don't know. i use normal gpsd |
| 21:49.06 | sebbs | kuka on soumalainen? |
| 21:49.07 | lindi- | Wonka: gupsy implementation should be trivial? |
| 21:49.20 | Fougner_ | lindi-, the screen protector flexd bought cost him about 4EUR |
| 21:49.20 | Wonka | lindi-: didn't try yet. |
| 21:49.29 | Fougner_ | just FYI :) |
| 21:49.36 | lindi- | Fougner_: yeah, realized that. but it probably wasn't invisible shield(tm) :P |
| 21:49.40 | mickey|leipzig | Wonka: what's your problem w/ ogpsd? did you write a bug report? |
| 21:49.48 | Wonka | lindi-: i edited a lot in zhone's gps stuff today, and that uses gypsy... would like to continue using that |
| 21:49.51 | *** join/#openmoko metalx1000 (n=metal@unaffiliated/metalx1000) |
| 21:50.03 | Fougner_ | lindi-, oh, that one :D well that's cheap XD |
| 21:50.05 | lindi- | Wonka: i don't want GSM ui to be also GPS ui :) |
| 21:50.33 | Wonka | lindi-: i'd rip that out of zhone anyway because i don't like the rest - but even then it's gypsy |
| 21:50.50 | Fougner_ | puuh |
| 21:50.51 | Fougner_ | well guys |
| 21:50.54 | Fougner_ | time to sleep |
| 21:50.54 | lindi- | Wonka: yeah just write gupsy wrapper for gpsd |
| 21:50.58 | Fougner_ | tough day tomorrow =) |
| 21:51.05 | Fougner_ | AUSTRIA HERE I COME =D=D=D |
| 21:51.28 | Wonka | mickey|leipzig: problem is, my GPS stuff tends to hang for minutes sometimes. like "every 5 to 30 minutes". |
| 21:51.52 | Wonka | mickey|leipzig: in dmesg, i see messages about rxerrs |
| 21:51.55 | sebbs | good luck Fougner_ |
| 21:52.02 | mickey|leipzig | Wonka: interesting. that's not supposed to happen. please open a bug report with detailed logs. alphaone will check asap |
| 21:52.09 | rick_ | can someone help me on the pleas, while following the "http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Automatic_emulation_in_Ubuntu" tutorial and running the command "make run-qemu". it stopt after this: "" |
| 21:52.09 | rick_ | Retrieving available builds list... |
| 21:52.09 | rick_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:52.31 | Wonka | mickey|leipzig: could you tell me where? which of the many bugtrackers? |
| 21:52.52 | SpeedEvil | linuxxr: there is lots of useful stuff for your FR on that site. |
| 21:52.59 | SpeedEvil | lindi: |
| 21:53.14 | *** join/#openmoko badcloud (n=bla@ti400720a342-0283.bb.online.no) |
| 21:53.30 | jonkristian | i wonder where the illume-config (wrench) went. |
| 21:53.35 | SpeedEvil | http://dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.849 - look familiar? |
| 21:53.57 | Fougner_ | sebbs, thanks |
| 21:54.37 | lindi- | SpeedEvil: heh :) |
| 21:54.44 | SpeedEvil | And http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.10313 |
| 21:55.01 | lindi- | SpeedEvil: i'm not using stylus at all actually, only finger |
| 21:55.29 | lindi- | SpeedEvil: looks quite useless :P |
| 21:55.34 | Fougner_ | lindi-, very brave of you ^^ |
| 21:55.45 | badcloud | don't you cramp up after a while in the hand, lindi? |
| 21:56.01 | mickey|leipzig | Wonka: as ogpsd is a framework part, it's best on trac.freesmartphone.org |
| 21:56.13 | SpeedEvil | linuxxr: alternatively - http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2700 |
| 21:57.10 | *** join/#openmoko janrikard (n=janrikar@ua-83-227-168-197.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) |
| 21:57.14 | metalx1000 | got my freerunner a few hours ago. I'm connected to it through usb. I can ping. but ssh port 22 does not show up in port scan. |
| 21:57.21 | metalx1000 | is sshd install by defualt |
| 21:57.23 | *** join/#openmoko reinouts (n=reinout@s559355fe.adsl.wanadoo.nl) |
| 21:57.28 | metalx1000 | or do I have to install it |
| 21:57.31 | lindi- | badcloud: i think it's much easier |
| 21:57.42 | badcloud | you must have small fingers then |
| 21:57.47 | SpeedEvil | metalx1000: are you sure you're trying to connect to it? |
| 21:57.54 | lindi- | badcloud: just large virtual keyboard |
| 21:57.55 | metalx1000 | yes |
| 21:58.02 | badcloud | ahh, nice |
| 21:58.14 | SpeedEvil | metalx1000: common error 4 is to ifconfig usb0 192.168.0.200, then ssh to 192.168.0.200 |
| 21:58.53 | *** join/#openmoko raster (n=raster@124-170-128-137.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 21:59.49 | metalx1000 | SpeedEvil, I'll try that, but can ping it and nmap it, it has an ip of 192.168.0.202 now, just port 22 is closed |
| 22:00.01 | SpeedEvil | k |
| 22:00.26 | Fougner_ | can you FTP it? :) |
| 22:01.06 | Fougner_ | apt shoot Dave |
| 22:01.06 | apt | ACTION shoots Dave in the head with a cork gun! |
| 22:01.15 | Fougner_ | apt shoot badcloud |
| 22:01.15 | apt | ACTION shoots badcloud in the head with a cork gun! |
| 22:01.21 | SpeedEvil | raster: Oh - completed that md5sum of pages of my desktop - finding 40% of pages had dupes. One duped 85000 times. (of 256K pages) haven't tried a similar excersize on my FR, as I can't get the dump. |
| 22:01.29 | badcloud | ouch... |
| 22:01.54 | badcloud | what's up, Fougner? |
| 22:02.05 | lindi- | SpeedEvil: /dev/mem exists? |
| 22:02.15 | Fougner_ | badcloud, going to germany tomorrow ;) |
| 22:02.34 | Fougner_ | then after night in Germany, travel to Austria =) |
| 22:02.36 | SpeedEvil | lindi-: exists, but everything segfaults on acess |
| 22:02.41 | lindi- | SpeedEvil: really? |
| 22:02.49 | badcloud | atp, shoot, I forgot my gun |
| 22:02.58 | SpeedEvil | linuxxr: really - though I have a Ooold kernel. |
| 22:03.01 | SpeedEvil | lindk: |
| 22:03.07 | lindi- | SpeedEvil: dd: reading `/dev/mem': Bad address |
| 22:03.14 | badcloud | yikes, lots of traveling |
| 22:03.18 | lindi- | SpeedEvil: but no segfault |
| 22:03.27 | Fougner_ | badcloud, haha, maybe |
| 22:03.43 | Fougner_ | going to stay in Austria for some months |
| 22:03.56 | *** join/#openmoko dolf1074 (n=chatzill@78-23-167-142.access.telenet.be) |
| 22:04.12 | badcloud | apt, shoot, I forgot my gun |
| 22:04.40 | badcloud | ah, so that's not too bad |
| 22:05.04 | badcloud | I'm just not much of a travel person |
| 22:05.13 | Fougner_ | hehe |
| 22:05.24 | Fougner_ | I bet you live at your computer desktop ;) |
| 22:05.32 | badcloud | ha, hardly |
| 22:05.40 | badcloud | don't really have a desktop |
| 22:05.46 | raster | SpeedEvil: gah! |
| 22:05.50 | raster | 40% |
| 22:06.02 | SpeedEvil | had about 80 FF windows open |
| 22:06.10 | raster | SpeedEvil: desktop - much more likely as u likely run many more procs |
| 22:06.15 | *** join/#openmoko Tig| (n=tigger@82.153.215.237) |
| 22:06.15 | SpeedEvil | of course |
| 22:06.22 | raster | eg many gtk or qt apps that have the exact same init proceedure |
| 22:06.26 | *** join/#openmoko mmaestri (i=be315760@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-af37e25f40dbabc3) |
| 22:06.32 | raster | thus likely populate the exact same initial set of pages |
| 22:06.38 | SpeedEvil | Though I again note I've frequently had my laptop with 128M RAM up and running FF1.5 with 20 windows open |
| 22:06.50 | raster | tho dups WITHIN a process i kind of find unlikely |
| 22:06.57 | SpeedEvil | raster: it's firefox |
| 22:07.00 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 22:07.04 | raster | as malloc will probably not page-align allocs much |
| 22:07.09 | raster | unless they are big fat > 1mb ones |
| 22:07.11 | SpeedEvil | Oh - that's true. |
| 22:07.18 | SpeedEvil | Hadn't thought of that. |
| 22:07.35 | raster | and those are possibly data (such as an image) and at that point ffox in this case probably should have some form of share dcache |
| 22:07.46 | badcloud | so what's does koolu's involvement really mean aside from the Android plat.? |
| 22:08.05 | raster | it would be interestign to find otu what processes those duped pages belonged to |
| 22:08.36 | SpeedEvil | raster: yep. And I need to work out how to extract neo RAM image. |
| 22:08.42 | SpeedEvil | ponders gdb |
| 22:08.55 | mmp | raster: hello; I wanted to ask one thing you might know to answer -- one my friend was running e-based distro with zhone and few other applications; interesting thing was, that some 'e' applications were much faster when zhone was running, when compared to running just them alone... |
| 22:09.23 | Fougner_ | mmp I know the answer ^^ |
| 22:09.32 | linuxxr | Speedevil which site? |
| 22:09.39 | mmp | Fougner_: why? |
| 22:09.53 | SpeedEvil | linuxxr: sorry - blame lindi-'s similar name, and my terrible completion habits. |
| 22:09.58 | Fougner_ | haha, I don't :P |
| 22:10.00 | SpeedEvil | linuxxr: dealextreme.com |
| 22:10.07 | linuxxr | haha |
| 22:10.08 | lindi- | SpeedEvil: # CONFIG_DEVKMEM is not set? |
| 22:10.19 | SpeedEvil | linuxxr: I suspect not |
| 22:10.56 | lindi- | SpeedEvil: maybe most of the pages were full of zeroes? |
| 22:11.01 | *** join/#openmoko jserv-- (n=jserv@118-169-96-206.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 22:11.04 | SpeedEvil | lindi-: that's also a possibility |
| 22:11.16 | SpeedEvil | lindi-: the 86K ones at least. |
| 22:11.18 | Fougner_ | goodnight to you all :P |
| 22:11.27 | mmp | Fougner_: night :) |
| 22:11.47 | Fougner_ | mmp, eeeey, how about the projectt? |
| 22:11.47 | SpeedEvil | lindi-: But about 50% of the total of duped pages wern't duped in such huge numbers. |
| 22:11.49 | Fougner_ | -t |
| 22:11.49 | metalx1000 | SpeedEvil, I ran "ifconfig usb0 192.168.0.200" as you suggested, I can still ping it and nmap it |
| 22:11.57 | metalx1000 | but port 22 still is closed |
| 22:12.13 | Fougner_ | metalx1000, what's your computer's IP? |
| 22:12.16 | mmp | Fougner_: no progress so far, school takes too much of my time recently :) |
| 22:12.21 | SpeedEvil | metalx1000: what does your screen look like? |
| 22:12.26 | Fougner_ | mmp, affirmitive |
| 22:12.27 | raster | SpeedEvil: knowing who those pages belong to an the dups and the nature of the dups will really help |
| 22:12.33 | SpeedEvil | raster: of course. |
| 22:12.37 | raster | SpeedEvil: example - are 90% of the dups 0-pages? |
| 22:12.40 | sebbs | ok i want this phone |
| 22:12.50 | raster | which processes are makign the dups |
| 22:12.56 | sebbs | this phone has 100% linux compatability, it just could not get any better |
| 22:12.58 | SpeedEvil | raster: there were about 40% of the dups - 86K sharing the same sum. |
| 22:13.05 | Fougner_ | sebbs, hehe |
| 22:13.07 | metalx1000 | Fougner, 192.168.1.4 is my laptops ip |
| 22:13.10 | raster | and then... hopefulyl we can figure out what toolkit lib etc. behavior causes it and maybe nuke it at the source |
| 22:13.11 | Fougner_ | sebbs, www.openmoko.se |
| 22:13.13 | sebbs | well x86 processor might make it better |
| 22:13.16 | raster | :) |
| 22:13.18 | sebbs | Fougner_: i dont live in sweden |
| 22:13.20 | *** join/#openmoko emsyr (n=emsyr@ppp079166093195.dsl.hol.gr) |
| 22:13.30 | Fougner_ | sebbs, oh sorry |
| 22:13.30 | raster | hmm |
| 22:13.32 | raster | same sum |
| 22:13.32 | SpeedEvil | raster: I assume those were zeros. I need to look at process mapping, and work out how to get a dump from the neo, and ... |
| 22:13.40 | Fougner_ | sebbs, where then? |
| 22:13.41 | raster | my guess is that'd either be 0 byte pages |
| 22:13.52 | metalx1000 | SpeedEvil, the phones screen? or my laptops? |
| 22:13.52 | sebbs | Fougner_: spain |
| 22:13.54 | raster | or maybe the same dynamically alloced pages glibc uses for some initial setup |
| 22:13.59 | raster | as everyone shareds glibc... |
| 22:14.04 | raster | they share the same setup pages |
| 22:14.09 | SpeedEvil | metalx1000: sorry - to clarify - what distribution is your phone running? |
| 22:14.13 | SpeedEvil | is unsure. |
| 22:14.18 | Fougner_ | sebbs, ahh, well then I can't help you :P |
| 22:14.24 | sebbs | â¬372 thats alot |
| 22:14.27 | SpeedEvil | (as to what recently shipped FRs have on them) |
| 22:14.36 | raster | mmp: what e-base distro? |
| 22:14.43 | raster | and what e applications? |
| 22:14.54 | metalx1000 | SpeedEvil, OpenMoko that it came with I think 2007.8 |
| 22:15.16 | mmp | raster: I actually don't know; I will ask him in near future; I remember he showed it to me and it looked quite interestingly.... |
| 22:15.28 | Fougner_ | metalx1000, I've got a script that always fixes my problems, regardless to what distro I'm using.. so far |
| 22:15.39 | mmp | I guess it was either FDOM or FSO, but don't know what releases |
| 22:15.41 | Fougner_ | metalx1000, PM? |
| 22:15.59 | *** join/#openmoko MoR4euZ (n=mor4euz@f050051193.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 22:16.11 | raster | mmp: and how do u know they run "faster" ? |
| 22:16.31 | raster | or do u merely mean - they start faster? |
| 22:16.38 | mmp | raster: visually faster |
| 22:16.38 | sebbs | what is th ebattery time on the openmoko when listning to music |
| 22:16.39 | sebbs | ? |
| 22:16.44 | mmp | raster: now I remember a bit |
| 22:16.55 | sebbs | do you have to charge it everyday or what? |
| 22:17.08 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: battery life at the moment is almost a joke. |
| 22:17.12 | mmp | raster: he was writing simple application which would just move small rectangle on the screen using python and etk |
| 22:17.18 | raster | SpeedEvil: yeah. but a dump from the neo would be useful - as well as a process table vm dump of some sort |
| 22:17.21 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: explain |
| 22:17.24 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: _lots_ of software development needs to happen before it can be called good. |
| 22:17.31 | *** join/#openmoko sirkha_top (n=sirkha@32.178.62.49) |
| 22:17.37 | mmp | without zhone, the rectangle moved visibly slower than with it |
| 22:17.44 | sebbs | how often do you have to charge the phone |
| 22:17.59 | sebbs | i bet alot of the code around is not optimized for battery |
| 22:18.07 | raster | mmp: i can't explain that |
| 22:18.12 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: that's the least problem |
| 22:18.24 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_GTA01_Power_Management |
| 22:18.26 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: elaborate |
| 22:18.29 | sebbs | thanks |
| 22:18.38 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: conventional 'optimisation' isn't where the large problems lie |
| 22:18.38 | mmp | raster: neither we could :) I can try to get some more data, or complete testcase... |
| 22:18.42 | Fougner_ | sebbs, om du slår igång alla saker på den kommer den vara igång under ca 4 timmar |
| 22:18.48 | sirkha_top | so, looks like the GTA03 still won't have 3g |
| 22:19.14 | raster | SpeedEvil: mind u i wouldnt expect 40%of paged to be duped on the neo - more likely 20% - but that is still significant... and possibly worth using the module :) |
| 22:19.21 | SpeedEvil | sirkha_top: As far as I've been able to gather, GTA03 hasn't even had - in its present majorly changed form - |
| 22:19.22 | sirkha_top | or am i inferring incorrectly from the modem they say they are using (which says it does edge) |
| 22:19.37 | SpeedEvil | sirka: had a debug board made |
| 22:19.37 | Fougner_ | sebbs, om du ska använda den som en vanlig telefon å använda dig av "suspend"-funktionen, kommer den klara näääästan ett dygn om du har tur.. och då räknar vi med att du inte använder luren |
| 22:19.53 | SpeedEvil | sirk; I mean a prototype board |
| 22:20.18 | SpeedEvil | sirkha_top: so it's likely to be a fair way off :/ |
| 22:20.36 | sirkha_top | SpeedEvil: yeah, i was reading the mailing list, it just said someone was playing with the modem developer's board for the GTA03 modem |
| 22:20.37 | sebbs | when you say everything running do you mean like video playback? |
| 22:20.53 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: IIRC, yes. |
| 22:21.09 | sebbs | so 4 hours with video playback is quite ok |
| 22:21.14 | sebbs | my nokia does about that |
| 22:21.20 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: but those were very preliminary numbers. I also don't know how the FR does. |
| 22:21.28 | sebbs | FR? |
| 22:21.33 | mortenlysgaard | Hi, I'm just wondering. Is there any daily testing kernel for FSO? |
| 22:21.38 | SpeedEvil | FreeRunner - the current version |
| 22:21.50 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: you are speaking about the older one? |
| 22:22.05 | SpeedEvil | That was written of the last version of the hardware - many of the software comments are still regrettably accurate, and much is similar internally. |
| 22:22.27 | raster | mmp: for startup times it'd be explained by the python interpreter and bindigns already loaded into ram by zhone |
| 22:22.31 | raster | thus startup should be faster |
| 22:22.39 | raster | but runtime animation should be the same no matter what |
| 22:22.47 | mmp | raster: this was purely runtime... |
| 22:22.54 | sebbs | but i mean the battery time is acceptable thne |
| 22:22.55 | sirkha_top | mortenlysgaard: go to openmoko-cdevel, you might get more info on FSO there |
| 22:23.01 | mmp | I'm not sure whether he did or did not use alpha surface, but that should not matter anyway |
| 22:23.02 | sebbs | With everything on, playing video with sound, for example should get well over 3 hours. (500mW LCD + 320mW CPU + 200mW audio + 50mW GPS. 4.5Wh at 1.1W draw) |
| 22:23.19 | sirkha_top | i could be totally wrong in recommending that... |
| 22:23.24 | sebbs | that is good, on my nokia it would never work that long, with gps too |
| 22:23.24 | mmp | argh; s/alpha surface/alpha to draw on surface/ :) |
| 22:23.43 | mortenlysgaard | sirkha_top; Do i get you rigth when i think it's a channel? |
| 22:23.57 | sirkha_top | mortenlysgaard: yes |
| 22:24.06 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: I'm unsure of those numbers |
| 22:24.10 | mortenlysgaard | sirkha_top; Thanks! =) |
| 22:24.24 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: I seem to remember actually measuring it and getting something a little different. |
| 22:25.06 | mmp | raster: I'll try to get the testcase... |
| 22:25.28 | mortenlysgaard | sirkha_top; Ah.. "Cannot join, requires keyword" |
| 22:25.41 | sebbs | does it use flash or a harddrive |
| 22:25.41 | sebbs | ? |
| 22:26.09 | sirkha_top | mortenlysgaard: weird, #openmoko-cdevel? |
| 22:26.14 | sirkha_top | not just -devel, but -cdevel |
| 22:26.30 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: flash. |
| 22:26.40 | SpeedEvil | also needs to do some more measuring. |
| 22:27.13 | mortenlysgaard | sirkha_top; There's no one in that channel, I thougth you made a typo and meant #openmoko-devel |
| 22:27.31 | SpeedEvil | #openmoko-cdevel is the open one |
| 22:27.45 | sebbs | cos my only real phone requirement is that i can use debian packages |
| 22:27.45 | SpeedEvil | -devel is the one with the NSA |
| 22:27.46 | sirkha_top | nope, i am in #openmoko-cdevel, so i know there is someone in it :) |
| 22:27.57 | sebbs | so i can run my normal textbased applications on my phone |
| 22:27.59 | sebbs | thats all i want |
| 22:28.06 | sirkha_top | NDA SpeedEvil? |
| 22:28.17 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: As I understand it, it's not a phone when you put debian on it |
| 22:28.22 | mortenlysgaard | sirkha_top; Hm, got it now. Maybe i typoed ;) |
| 22:28.26 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: as there isn't any suitable phone software there. |
| 22:28.30 | SpeedEvil | sirkha_top: err -yes |
| 22:28.37 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: oh |
| 22:28.40 | sirkha_top | SpeedEvil: lol |
| 22:28.46 | raster | mmp: zhone and the test app literally are separate processes |
| 22:29.01 | raster | they dont play games and re-use the same python interpreter process |
| 22:29.02 | raster | ? |
| 22:29.06 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: are you sure? |
| 22:29.06 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: at the moment - the hardware is in a tollerable state. It could be a phone with OK battery life and features. |
| 22:29.11 | sirkha_top | SpeedEvil, sebbs, i thought FSO was workign on debian? |
| 22:29.17 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: no - look at the debian page on the wiki |
| 22:29.22 | SpeedEvil | hasn't done debian |
| 22:29.24 | sebbs | what is FSO? |
| 22:29.30 | mmp | raster: I know, that's why I'm asking you; we were comming thourgh all possible options, but came to no reasonable explanation |
| 22:29.37 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FSO |
| 22:29.43 | sebbs | cheers |
| 22:30.11 | *** part/#openmoko mortenlysgaard (n=mortenly@85.252.185.249) |
| 22:30.29 | sirkha_top | goes to discover if he can save 13 bucks by cutting his own hair, nice talking with yall |
| 22:30.38 | sebbs | so dude, is there anyway i can run my standard textbased applications on the openmoko and use it as a phone? |
| 22:30.45 | SpeedEvil | sirkha_top: of course you can. |
| 22:30.53 | sebbs | can i recompile debian packages to openmoko packages? |
| 22:30.59 | SpeedEvil | sirkha_top: the question is - will you later wish you'd spent the $13 |
| 22:31.29 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: As I understand it - not really quite yet. |
| 22:31.56 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: is there anyphone you know of that would let me? |
| 22:31.58 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: there are keyboard problems and other ones on the distributions that are almost there in terms of phone functionality |
| 22:32.13 | raster | mmp: thats very very very odd |
| 22:32.18 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: sorry - unsure |
| 22:32.58 | sebbs | :( hmm i will have to think about it more i guess, and read more |
| 22:33.13 | lindi- | sebbs: you can easily install debian to chroot |
| 22:33.19 | CIA-20 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07python-helpers * reb39ce7fb81b 10/fso-apm/apm: fso-apm: show battery status together with capacity |
| 22:33.22 | sebbs | lindi-: well thats good enough :D |
| 22:33.34 | sebbs | thank you lindi- you solved it |
| 22:34.17 | mmp | raster: indeed... but as far as I know there were no side effects that could happen... |
| 22:34.25 | lindi- | sebbs: i did the other way around, i have debian and a minimal set of other apps |
| 22:34.49 | sebbs | lindi-: phone apps? |
| 22:35.08 | sebbs | i would prefer debian, but i need the phone apps so i can make conferens calls |
| 22:35.44 | lindi- | sebbs: yeah |
| 22:35.59 | sebbs | so you can do that? run debian and use it as a phone? |
| 22:36.05 | lindi- | sebbs: fso-frameworkd is in pkg-fso repo and then wrote a minimal phone call UI program in python |
| 22:36.09 | lindi- | sebbs: yeah |
| 22:36.15 | sebbs | sweet :) |
| 22:36.20 | raster | it's only about 1.5km away |
| 22:36.37 | lindi- | sebbs: gps, wlan, bluetooth work with standard software so GSM is the only one where you really need extra stuff |
| 22:36.42 | lindi- | sebbs: (and the kernel of course) |
| 22:36.58 | sebbs | well i will need gsm support |
| 22:37.17 | sebbs | but i could survive on skype i guess |
| 22:37.25 | sebbs | for a while anyway |
| 22:37.42 | mmp | hmm, any idea why on shr, enlightenment takes 15% of CPU while not doing anything? |
| 22:37.52 | sebbs | i mean i could install sendmail on the phone and stuff |
| 22:38.16 | *** join/#openmoko datachaos (n=datachao@189.27.182.141.adsl.gvt.net.br) |
| 22:38.23 | lindi- | sebbs: shh, skype is evil proprietary stuff |
| 22:38.34 | sebbs | lindi-: i know :*( |
| 22:38.40 | lindi- | sebbs: but yes, gsm seems to work |
| 22:38.55 | sebbs | lindi-: i have you seen that stallman app? |
| 22:38.56 | sebbs | its so funny |
| 22:39.37 | lindi- | sebbs: which one? |
| 22:40.20 | raster | mmp: no idea there - it shouldnt. |
| 22:40.49 | *** join/#openmoko Kensan (n=ken@gw.ptr-80-238-171-187.customer.ch.netstream.com) |
| 22:41.15 | mmp | raster: this one is reproducible on actual SHR image; few suspends and resumes, system running for something more than an hour... |
| 22:41.29 | mmp | I guess it's time to install gdb :) |
| 22:41.59 | sebbs | lindi-: vrms |
| 22:42.09 | sebbs | lindi-: http://packages.debian.org/etch/vrms |
| 22:42.12 | lindi- | sebbs: ah but it's not entirely stallman |
| 22:42.20 | lindi- | sebbs: there's a bug report about it |
| 22:42.38 | raster | mmp it could be the gsm gadget |
| 22:42.45 | raster | as it tries to support both qt and fso |
| 22:42.59 | raster | and if neither is working it will keep polling every second |
| 22:43.00 | sebbs | lindi-: i have not seen the bugreport about it. |
| 22:43.16 | mmp | hmm, but this is far more than a second... let me try to remove it |
| 22:43.36 | sebbs | lindi-: how did you get gsm running on your debian installation? |
| 22:43.56 | sebbs | could you refer me to some doc on the matter? |
| 22:44.05 | sebbs | s/doc/docs/ |
| 22:44.12 | lindi- | sebbs: apt-get install fso-frameworkd |
| 22:44.13 | mmp | raster: weird; the load has dropped |
| 22:44.14 | *** join/#openmoko KaZeR (n=kazer@250.170.67-86.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 22:44.17 | lindi- | sebbs: the debian wiki has instructions |
| 22:44.21 | sebbs | good apt |
| 22:44.26 | sebbs | pets apt |
| 22:44.29 | mmp | ahh, enlightenment crashed :-/ |
| 22:44.41 | sebbs | lindi-: cool thanks |
| 22:44.42 | KaZeR | hey guys. which Qi version should i use for a gta02v6? which s3c* in fact? |
| 22:45.07 | sebbs | it is possible to charge this phone over usb? |
| 22:45.13 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: yes |
| 22:45.18 | sebbs | while using it? |
| 22:45.24 | KaZeR | sebbs, yes |
| 22:45.26 | *** join/#openmoko netx (n=rlange@n1-26-67.dhcp.drexel.edu) |
| 22:45.27 | sebbs | sweet |
| 22:45.39 | sebbs | ok im sold |
| 22:45.54 | mmp | raster: I'm probably not source of good news :-/ |
| 22:45.58 | sebbs | battery problems are ok if you can use a usb cable i am surrounded by computeers everywhere |
| 22:46.00 | *** join/#openmoko dolf1074 (n=chatzill@78-23-167-142.access.telenet.be) |
| 22:47.59 | raster | it probably is dbus polling |
| 22:48.04 | raster | edbus does some strange things |
| 22:48.10 | raster | i should probbably fix it |
| 22:48.12 | raster | like using idlers |
| 22:48.19 | raster | whihc really are a big no-no for this kind of thing |
| 22:48.34 | mmp | uhm... now it segfaulted again; this starts to be really weird |
| 22:50.54 | mmp | raster: btw, is there any plan to get libemotion to OM? |
| 22:51.08 | raster | no |
| 22:51.16 | raster | as it already builds and workd |
| 22:51.17 | raster | its in oe |
| 22:51.40 | sebbs | how long does it take to charge the phone over usb? |
| 22:51.43 | mmp | also emotion-python bindings? |
| 22:51.46 | raster | in fact - its on the illume images i build |
| 22:51.55 | raster | i have no plans to touch anything python |
| 22:52.15 | mmp | raster: the point is that i'm writing one small mp3 player in python... |
| 22:52.16 | sebbs | lindi-: oh and the phone apps, do i need to run X to use them? |
| 22:52.17 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro|isBack (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 22:52.34 | raster | om will be totally against that |
| 22:52.40 | raster | and make it hard for you |
| 22:52.46 | mmp | raster: python? |
| 22:52.46 | raster | and make sure your app never is in any feed |
| 22:52.53 | raster | no |
| 22:52.54 | raster | mp3 |
| 22:53.02 | mmp | ok, media player in general |
| 22:53.08 | mmp | backend is python-gst |
| 22:53.13 | SpeedEvil | Anything capable of mp3 is bad news |
| 22:53.14 | raster | anything related to mpeg2/3/4 etc. |
| 22:53.16 | raster | patents |
| 22:53.18 | mmp | so I can afford to write that :) |
| 22:53.21 | SpeedEvil | as annoying lawyers do stuff to you. |
| 22:53.31 | SpeedEvil | Like impound FRs. |
| 22:53.35 | raster | SpeedEvil: mpeg2 as well |
| 22:53.37 | raster | and mp4 |
| 22:53.51 | mmp | SpeedEvil, raster: I guess using gstreamer and not directly some decoder will to the trick |
| 22:53.52 | SpeedEvil | What's open? |
| 22:53.53 | SpeedEvil | wav? |
| 22:54.00 | mmp | SpeedEvil: OGG/Vorbis |
| 22:54.05 | raster | SpeedEvil: ogg |
| 22:54.19 | raster | mmp: as i siad |
| 22:54.21 | raster | emotion builds |
| 22:54.24 | raster | and is on there |
| 22:54.29 | raster | i've never used it on the fr myself |
| 22:54.37 | *** join/#openmoko drath (n=vmaster@p5B07E3CE.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:54.39 | raster | tho emotion is horribly broken in many ways atm and needs love |
| 22:54.58 | raster | like position updates are wrong |
| 22:55.01 | raster | seeking has issues |
| 22:55.02 | raster | etc. |
| 22:55.04 | lindi- | sebbs: yeah |
| 22:55.05 | mmp | hmm, we'll see... so far I don't have even the concept working fully to my needs... :) |
| 22:55.09 | raster | at least the xine back end on desktop |
| 22:55.10 | lindi- | sebbs: for the UI |
| 22:55.22 | sebbs | but can people all you up without the UI running? |
| 22:55.22 | lindi- | sebbs: if you want it's quite easy to write text-only UI |
| 22:55.30 | *** join/#openmoko df (i=df@hack.my) |
| 22:55.31 | sebbs | yes i would think it is |
| 22:55.37 | SpeedEvil | lynx! |
| 22:55.54 | sebbs | it should be a hours worth of python meddling |
| 22:55.59 | mmp | raster: btw, one final question -- I noticed that scrolling fps in enlightenment is much lower than the scroll speed I was able to get with gtk scrolling widget... |
| 22:56.20 | mmp | it was like 3 fps vs. >10 |
| 22:56.51 | mmp | I know enlightenment draws lots of fancy things like gradients... |
| 22:57.04 | mmp | but it's still quite slow I guess... |
| 22:58.43 | flexd | Is it just me or is illume still slow? (I run the FDOM or whatever its called now) |
| 22:59.50 | raster | mmp: scrolling == redraw |
| 22:59.58 | raster | you wont get hardware acceleration |
| 23:00.29 | mmp | raster: yes, but gtk scrolling widget does the same... and does it a bit faster, though; that's the thing which makes me wonder |
| 23:00.36 | raster | because scrolling is "move a whole bunch of objects from A to B |
| 23:00.49 | raster | no |
| 23:00.55 | raster | in gtk scrolling is done with a child-window |
| 23:00.57 | raster | in a parent |
| 23:01.02 | raster | and moving the child |
| 23:01.08 | raster | redrawing the newly exposed regions only |
| 23:01.16 | raster | OR its an xcopyarea |
| 23:01.22 | raster | and redraw new bits |
| 23:01.23 | mmp | aha, that explains few things, like artefacts I see on the screen... |
| 23:01.32 | raster | gtk's redraw likely is goign to be faster as it draws nigh-nothing |
| 23:01.41 | raster | thats why efl wont see artifacts |
| 23:01.49 | sebbs | is openmoko 3daccelerated? |
| 23:01.52 | raster | because everything is redrawn |
| 23:01.59 | raster | on the cpu and pumped to the display |
| 23:02.10 | raster | gtk will be reliant on the blitting in x being "right" |
| 23:02.21 | mmp | raster: and any way of speeding it a bit up? |
| 23:02.26 | mmp | :-) |
| 23:02.32 | raster | as such efl's draw speed scales with # of pixels to draw |
| 23:02.38 | raster | mmp: speeding up the redraw |
| 23:02.45 | raster | as such freerunenr is awful |
| 23:02.49 | mmp | well... yes |
| 23:02.53 | raster | efl runs like a dream on my treo650 |
| 23:03.12 | mmp | raster: but that one has only QVGA screen, iirc |
| 23:03.14 | mmp | ;) |
| 23:03.14 | raster | but thats because the framebuffer doesnt live at the other end of a 1mm wide staw |
| 23:03.18 | raster | straw |
| 23:03.22 | raster | 320x320 |
| 23:03.25 | raster | and only 312mhz |
| 23:04.00 | mmp | yes, that was quite unfortunate decision :-/ |
| 23:04.07 | mmp | (slow bus to glamo) |
| 23:04.40 | SpeedEvil | not a decision on the bus speed - on the glamo |
| 23:04.50 | SpeedEvil | it maxes out at that |
| 23:05.05 | raster | no one knew it'd be that slow |
| 23:05.09 | raster | until u started to play with it |
| 23:05.28 | mmp | yes... |
| 23:05.29 | SpeedEvil | raster: that'd be due to the enormous detail in the 2 page datasheet :) |
| 23:05.45 | raster | SpeedEvil: hehehe |
| 23:06.09 | raster | mmp: as such when you scroll i estimate you lose about 30-50% of your cpu just into writing to the gtlamo |
| 23:06.09 | mmp | raster: btw, any way to draw at least few things on the chip? |
| 23:06.19 | raster | compared to if you used the built-in framebuffer of the 2442 |
| 23:06.23 | raster | whihc would be a memcpy to write |
| 23:06.27 | mmp | (such as blitting itself...) |
| 23:06.34 | raster | mmp: u can use the xrender evas engine |
| 23:06.39 | raster | but that also will be entirely unaccelerated |
| 23:06.44 | raster | evas has a gl engine |
| 23:06.48 | raster | again - useless on the glamo |
| 23:06.48 | *** join/#openmoko esa-petri (n=esa-petr@dsl-kpobrasgw1-ff71c100-40.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 23:06.56 | raster | i'd have to do a gl-es variant |
| 23:07.05 | raster | but glamo is uselsss for it anyeway as the 3d is so limited |
| 23:07.19 | raster | its useful for nothnig more than low-res toy-games/demos |
| 23:07.23 | mmp | raster: I heard something about the gl having only 512x512 maximal size of overlay... |
| 23:07.30 | raster | 511x511 |
| 23:07.38 | raster | but since the screen is vga |
| 23:07.41 | raster | ie 640x480 |
| 23:07.44 | raster | u'd have to drop to qvga |
| 23:07.51 | raster | 240x320 |
| 23:07.52 | raster | for gl |
| 23:08.06 | mmp | hmm, and any way to render needed things off-screen and just bitblt them? |
| 23:08.08 | raster | (or have some truly HORRID scaling artifacts) |
| 23:08.26 | *** join/#openmoko CVirus (n=Satan@41.196.155.74) |
| 23:08.46 | raster | and max texture size is 256x256 |
| 23:08.54 | raster | as such evas's gl engine uses 1 texture per pixmap |
| 23:09.03 | raster | and 256 limit would break > 50% of images |
| 23:09.22 | raster | turning an image into a texture mesh (array of quads with textures) is also tricky, painful and the results are awful |
| 23:09.25 | raster | i have done it before |
| 23:09.25 | *** join/#openmoko hozer (n=hozer@excalibur.hozed.org) |
| 23:09.26 | mmp | slowly gives up fast graphics on neo... |
| 23:09.29 | raster | and refuse to do it again |
| 23:09.35 | raster | you have to fight with gl |
| 23:09.45 | raster | each gl implementation interprets co-ordinates slightly differently |
| 23:09.53 | raster | and u'll need real hardware from every vendor to even try it |
| 23:10.03 | raster | as some will round down |
| 23:10.05 | raster | some round up |
| 23:10.09 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=rudi@dsbg-4db5f839.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 23:10.19 | raster | example: i can draw a 500x500 image on a radeo |
| 23:10.24 | raster | and 500x500 on an nvidia card |
| 23:10.27 | mmp | hmm, and my last idea -- if there is any way to use portions of advanced things from opengl engine outside the overlay (as alpha blit, etc...) |
| 23:10.31 | raster | both textures are 500x500 |
| 23:10.37 | raster | you draw a 500x500 "pixel" quad |
| 23:10.54 | raster | (you use gl's integer coords and set up a viewport transform so coords map 1:1 to pixels) |
| 23:11.01 | raster | and.. the images are different |
| 23:11.04 | sebbs | is coding on the openmoko really acceptable? |
| 23:11.07 | raster | the nvidia one is pixle-perfect |
| 23:11.11 | raster | radeon is "blurry" |
| 23:11.19 | raster | as it tries to do interpolated scaling |
| 23:11.31 | raster | now throw an intel gfx chip in |
| 23:11.34 | raster | and a unichrome (via) |
| 23:11.38 | raster | and god knows what else |
| 23:11.47 | raster | you need to play games like use floating point co-ords |
| 23:11.52 | *** join/#openmoko Wiedi (n=wiedi@newton-air.w.fruky.net) |
| 23:11.54 | raster | and on some dcards use 500.5x500.5 |
| 23:12.00 | raster | (ie half a pixel bigfger or off) |
| 23:12.03 | raster | bigger |
| 23:12.11 | raster | and per card/gl lib and even variant of gl lib |
| 23:12.18 | sebbs | meow |
| 23:12.25 | raster | (eg the mesa open radeon drivers behaved differently to ati's closed ones) |
| 23:12.27 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 23:12.36 | raster | gl for 2d is a minefield of pain |
| 23:12.50 | raster | now throw in a texture mesh which tries to get scalign and interpolation right |
| 23:12.55 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 23:12.57 | raster | and u have major pain - done it before and gave up. |
| 23:13.14 | mmp | yuck :-/ |
| 23:13.26 | sebbs | intersting |
| 23:13.35 | sebbs | i have a intel card |
| 23:13.40 | sebbs | they suck |
| 23:13.50 | sebbs | rather the drivers suck |
| 23:14.00 | sebbs | atleast for my card |
| 23:14.14 | raster | mmp: so as such - i gave up on glamo - its too limited for anything useful. once you read the specs and details its limits become apparent |
| 23:14.18 | raster | then throw into the mix |
| 23:14.29 | raster | "no other device on theplanet uses this chip - and tis a dead chip never to be used again" |
| 23:14.38 | raster | and the effort to cater for it is not worth it. |
| 23:14.56 | raster | xrender could be partly accelerated on the glamo |
| 23:15.01 | mmp | raster: well, there are few thousands of devices,which use it |
| 23:15.08 | raster | but onyl to the point where its likely to equal software rendering |
| 23:15.10 | raster | not beat it |
| 23:15.15 | mmp | (but I agree with you basically) |
| 23:15.18 | raster | as it can only accelerate a few bits of xrender |
| 23:15.21 | raster | and even then with limits |
| 23:15.28 | raster | glamo's max "blit" size is 640x640 |
| 23:15.33 | *** join/#openmoko sigius (n=sigius@93-125-185-45.dsl.alice.nl) |
| 23:15.37 | raster | now imagine u are looking at a 120x768 photo |
| 23:15.43 | raster | and want it scaled down to fit on screen |
| 23:15.49 | raster | the glamo literally cannto do that in hardware |
| 23:15.57 | raster | so either u need to again break it up into 640x640 lots |
| 23:16.05 | raster | and handle scaling with this too |
| 23:16.09 | raster | or do it all in software |
| 23:16.15 | raster | it cant render TO an ARGB32 surface |
| 23:16.20 | raster | destination is ALWAYS 16bpp |
| 23:16.36 | raster | whihc kind of make using a offscreen 32bpp buffer for decent quality a no-no |
| 23:16.41 | raster | you can't do intermediate buffers with alpha |
| 23:16.47 | raster | ie desitnation never has alpha channel |
| 23:16.55 | raster | so u cant compose an intermediate buffer in hw |
| 23:17.15 | raster | so u fall back to software goign across the glamo bus doing pixel fetch/writes per pixel with software fallbacks |
| 23:17.36 | raster | in the ned when u add up the limitations u'll spendd a lot of effort on a driver |
| 23:17.43 | mmp | ok... fair enough... I didn't expect it's _that much_ limited |
| 23:17.46 | raster | and succeed with pretty much 0% speedup :) |
| 23:17.48 | raster | thats my guess |
| 23:17.56 | mmp | well, at least CPU relief... |
| 23:17.57 | *** join/#openmoko ajbrun (n=ajbrun@host81-159-133-173.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) |
| 23:17.57 | raster | and i've been doing the graphics game for a long time |
| 23:18.08 | raster | hmm |
| 23:18.13 | raster | i am not sure u'll get reliefe |
| 23:18.26 | raster | as u'll be spedning a lot of cycles now writing pixel sources to the glamo |
| 23:18.29 | raster | writign commands |
| 23:18.35 | raster | spinning on "Wait for pipeline to clear" |
| 23:18.41 | mmp | spinning? |
| 23:18.42 | raster | as well |
| 23:18.51 | mmp | glamo doesn't have irq assigned? |
| 23:18.54 | freqmod_qu | raster: if i want two keyboards at the edges of the screen in illume do i have to hack illume or is it enough to look at edje "code"? |
| 23:18.56 | raster | well as such there is no support for interrupts |
| 23:19.03 | mmp | my god... |
| 23:19.04 | sebbs | holyshit |
| 23:19.07 | raster | the hw does have one |
| 23:19.08 | sebbs | i can run PD on this |
| 23:19.15 | raster | but gettign that interrupt to userspace is a big problem |
| 23:19.27 | raster | in more recent kernels it can be done |
| 23:19.52 | hozer | oh boy.. cause you have to track down which process to deliver it to? |
| 23:19.59 | raster | anyway |
| 23:20.04 | raster | yes - more can be done |
| 23:20.22 | raster | the end result i fear will be almost indistinguishable from what you see now |
| 23:20.33 | raster | u'd have been faster with zero acceleration |
| 23:20.36 | SpeedEvil | 8fps, not 6 |
| 23:20.43 | *** join/#openmoko pieterc (n=pieterc@78-21-37-68.access.telenet.be) |
| 23:20.52 | raster | SpeedEvil: yes - or somethnig really "uselesS" |
| 23:20.56 | sebbs | hmm are there any realtime kernels around for openmoko? |
| 23:21.05 | raster | ie went from slow , to slightly less slow |
| 23:21.09 | SpeedEvil | raster: yeah - all that effort for 6.4fps, ... |
| 23:21.10 | sebbs | guess i could do it myself |
| 23:21.10 | raster | not from slow to "smooth" |
| 23:21.19 | raster | so for people with unlimited spare time |
| 23:21.22 | raster | go for it |
| 23:21.31 | raster | your time is not "better spent elsewhere" |
| 23:21.37 | raster | as u have limitless amoutns of it |
| 23:21.51 | mmp | raster: ok, this is probably no-go; any idea whether glamo supports at least DMA from non-glamo memory? |
| 23:21.58 | raster | nup |
| 23:21.59 | Wonka | the amount of spare time a person can have is limited by time already. |
| 23:22.09 | raster | glamo has no dma at all |
| 23:22.09 | SpeedEvil | raster: http://xkcd.com/505/ |
| 23:22.10 | raster | u'd need to drive dma from the soc |
| 23:22.17 | raster | and that was one of the first things we tried |
| 23:22.27 | raster | once i found how hellishly slow the glamo bus was |
| 23:22.28 | mmp | well, that's almost as bad as copying data directl |
| 23:22.29 | mmp | y |
| 23:22.37 | raster | i went "fuck. can we at least offload copying to video ram to dma?" |
| 23:22.40 | raster | result - nada |
| 23:22.49 | raster | it was 1/5 the speerd of cpu copies.. at BEST |
| 23:22.56 | mmp | uhm? |
| 23:22.58 | raster | and signficantly slower overall |
| 23:23.00 | mmp | that's a bit weird |
| 23:23.00 | raster | yes |
| 23:23.08 | raster | 2442 suppreots dma memory -> memory |
| 23:23.09 | mmp | DMA engine should run on full speed... |
| 23:23.12 | raster | as glamo is a memory mapped device |
| 23:23.22 | raster | u use the mem -> mem dma engine |
| 23:23.28 | raster | but its slower than a cpu copy |
| 23:23.30 | raster | much |
| 23:23.36 | mmp | that's weird... |
| 23:23.38 | Wonka | FAIL |
| 23:23.38 | raster | also dma doesnt understand mmu |
| 23:23.52 | sebbs | how is the gps locktime on the openmoko? |
| 23:23.58 | raster | so u need to literally teach it how to work around memory pages and fragments manually |
| 23:24.21 | raster | u have overhead of needing a dma queue |
| 23:24.25 | raster | and dma engine setup |
| 23:24.28 | Wonka | my spare time for yesterday is already overdrawn by half an our (it's 0 |
| 23:24.32 | Wonka | :24 here) |
| 23:24.33 | sebbs | neofree runner |
| 23:24.33 | mmp | yes, it's really useful only in few cases (uploading huge linear data to glamo) |
| 23:24.37 | raster | some small pages are faster to blindly copy with a cpu than use dma as setup is slower than the copy |
| 23:24.38 | raster | ... |
| 23:24.46 | Wonka | so i'll go to bed now... |
| 23:24.47 | raster | as such it was tried |
| 23:24.48 | raster | and failed |
| 23:24.55 | raster | 3 or so weeks were sunk into that experiment |
| 23:25.07 | raster | anyway |
| 23:25.24 | raster | i've read the glamo programming docs |
| 23:25.26 | mmp | wonders why smedia doesn't at least open the docs then, if it's really dead chip |
| 23:25.27 | raster | from beginnign to end |
| 23:25.27 | SpeedEvil | wonders what raster is working on ATM. |
| 23:25.29 | raster | a few times |
| 23:25.41 | raster | when u read the "featurelist" of the glamo |
| 23:25.46 | hozer | geez. |
| 23:25.48 | raster | which is what most "users" and people out there have seen |
| 23:25.50 | raster | you get excited |
| 23:25.55 | raster | and think this glamo is the best thing |
| 23:25.56 | raster | i did |
| 23:25.58 | hozer | HAH |
| 23:26.01 | raster | when i first saw it |
| 23:26.06 | hozer | then you read the "restrictions" ? |
| 23:26.11 | raster | i went "cool. this thing wil be awesome" |
| 23:26.14 | raster | then.. you read the details |
| 23:26.28 | raster | all the "can do this.. but only win this situation and within these limits" |
| 23:26.35 | raster | and soon you being to do "uh oh" |
| 23:26.38 | hozer | sounds like the Galileo bridge chip for the PPC7450 |
| 23:26.48 | raster | and eventually you go "uhhmm... gah! so much work. so little gain!" |
| 23:26.52 | hozer | It supported SMP and cache coherency.. with a bunch of "restrictions" |
| 23:27.18 | raster | and you instantly think 'how about we have no glamo.. and just use existing software rendeirng which is... 0 work. and probably at least as fast and useful" :) |
| 23:27.29 | sebbs | when is GTA03 to be released? |
| 23:27.31 | raster | hozer: hehehehhee |
| 23:27.36 | hozer | so, sounds like we need an openmoko phone that has a decent CPU and an FPGA we can program a decent graphics engine on ourselves |
| 23:27.36 | sebbs | is there a roadmap around? |
| 23:27.46 | raster | hozer: u do NOT want an fpga |
| 23:27.47 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: a _long_ time sounds like |
| 23:27.52 | hozer | awwww, why not ;) |
| 23:27.54 | mmp | raster: 03 will have internal framebuffer and sort-of 2d accel, right? |
| 23:27.55 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: likely to be >>6 months |
| 23:28.00 | raster | but... you possibly want this new chip i have under my nose |
| 23:28.18 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: what will that phone have? |
| 23:28.22 | sebbs | perhaps i should wait then |
| 23:28.24 | raster | the first gen of it in raw compute with a first gen (not optimised) compiler can equal the glamo in raw power |
| 23:28.26 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: the GTA03 page on the wiki says that the SoC has changed within the last month. |
| 23:28.28 | raster | but comes with no "limits" |
| 23:28.36 | raster | ie limits are purely software |
| 23:28.37 | sebbs | what is SoC? |
| 23:28.43 | raster | and you get to write it |
| 23:28.50 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: I don't think there is a development board that looks like a phone. CPU |
| 23:28.51 | hozer | oooooh nifty |
| 23:28.51 | raster | sebbs: system on chip |
| 23:28.51 | sebbs | why does the hardware come in such big updates and not chips we could change? |
| 23:28.53 | sebbs | like modules |
| 23:28.58 | Kensan | raster: awww, you just love to tease ;) |
| 23:29.00 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: modules are shit |
| 23:29.04 | hozer | HAH |
| 23:29.05 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: they don't really work. |
| 23:29.09 | raster | mmp: no idea abour 03 - i gave up folloing that moving target |
| 23:29.10 | hozer | sebbs: board layout issues |
| 23:29.11 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: compare a PC with a laptop |
| 23:29.16 | hozer | the hardest part is the signal integrity |
| 23:29.20 | sebbs | wel completly new hardware is not a good solution |
| 23:29.24 | sebbs | what will you do with your old stuff |
| 23:29.27 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: Much of the reason the PC is smaller is because it omits all of those connectors. |
| 23:29.33 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: laptop |
| 23:29.41 | sebbs | now you have to update all the time and i mean the phone is 370 euros its alot |
| 23:29.43 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: For a module, you need: |
| 23:30.08 | hozer | sebbs: FIC makes hardware, remember ;) |
| 23:30.18 | raster | devices like phones are small |
| 23:30.21 | raster | chyeap and disposable |
| 23:30.23 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: it would be better for out economy and waste+production wise |
| 23:30.28 | raster | u dont design then to be pluggable/expandable |
| 23:30.32 | raster | u cut costs |
| 23:30.33 | raster | and pwoer |
| 23:30.37 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: A case to hold the module. A connector on the module. Static protection on the module. Static protection on the phone. Power conditioning on the module, an expensive connector on the module, a complex case on the phone to secure and hold these modules, ... |
| 23:30.38 | hozer | actually |
| 23:30.39 | raster | but putting it all on a small board |
| 23:30.41 | hozer | pluggable would take more power |
| 23:30.46 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: it's really not |
| 23:30.54 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: Sure, you can get a modular phone. |
| 23:30.55 | mmp | raster: iirc S3C6410, ARM11 + NEON instruction set (so it will be quite fast even with software rendering I guess) |
| 23:30.57 | hozer | and if you throw away your hardware every year and get something more power efficient |
| 23:30.59 | raster | soldered on and hopefulyl merge as much as u can into as few chips as u can to avoid interconnect power and performance leakage |
| 23:31.10 | hozer | that's an environmental benefit |
| 23:31.22 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: for 1.5 times the purchase price, 0.25*the reliability, 1.5* the weight, 1.5* the size. |
| 23:31.22 | sebbs | how often will there be new hardware releases? |
| 23:31.48 | hozer | SpeedEvil: and 2* the power consumption to drive longer traces |
| 23:31.50 | lindi- | sebbs: you don't necessarily have to buy the new phone every time a new release is made :) |
| 23:32.11 | sebbs | lindi-: sure, but you will always want to |
| 23:32.12 | hozer | will buy sebbs's old phone when he has to jump on the upgrade treadmill |
| 23:32.16 | raster | mmp: that'd be very much faster - if its the 6410 - even without 3d, (whihc as such i know for sure is still not ready as i have had my hands on some 6410 hw and seen the state of the drivers direct from samsung - it's got lots of issues still)... but software alone will be 3-4x the speed of the 2442 on the gta02 |
| 23:32.19 | lindi- | sebbs: really? |
| 23:32.23 | sebbs | atleast i would, out of curiosity |
| 23:32.40 | sebbs | thats why i would like it modular |
| 23:32.44 | hozer | heh |
| 23:32.45 | lindi- | sebbs: i used two 9110 communicators for 8 years or so :) |
| 23:32.50 | sebbs | so you always had the main part of it, and changed everythign else |
| 23:32.55 | pieterc | hm... if i flash the tracking kernel of android, it gives bad CRC or something at verifying checksum |
| 23:32.57 | mmp | raster: not sure, I've seen just some commits for gta03 mentioning that SoC |
| 23:32.59 | pieterc | what should i do? |
| 23:33.01 | lindi- | sebbs: (Bought the second when the first started to fail) |
| 23:33.15 | sebbs | i used a pda for like 6 years or so |
| 23:33.16 | pieterc | *bad data crc |
| 23:33.20 | lindi- | sebbs: with usb support you can extend |
| 23:33.20 | sebbs | the same one |
| 23:33.53 | hozer | sebbs: There's this modular thing called a network ;) |
| 23:33.54 | sebbs | i wonder if this phone is what i really need, all i really want is a phone that works as a phone and lets me run debian on it |
| 23:34.13 | sebbs | hozer: that is true |
| 23:34.31 | mmp | raster, SpeedEvil : I'll have to go offline now; it's already morning here (GMT+1); thank you both a lot and good night :) |
| 23:34.59 | sebbs | hozer: when we get "eternal" batterys, you will be able to walk outside junkyards with wifi radars and look for devices |
| 23:35.23 | hozer | sebbs: the freerunner is pretty close to an ideal phone, just because I can load my own kernel build on it with the manufacturers blessing |
| 23:35.35 | hozer | well |
| 23:35.41 | raster | mmp: nite! |
| 23:35.46 | hozer | maybe not eternal batteries.. solar panels ;) |
| 23:36.03 | hozer | goes in search of a working Bluetooth dongle |
| 23:36.13 | igor321 | have openmoko considered the TI soc? |
| 23:36.14 | sebbs | hozer: i see your point, that is what is appealing with it |
| 23:36.19 | igor321 | the one in beagleboard? |
| 23:36.34 | raster | SpeedEvil: HAHAHAHAHAH |
| 23:36.39 | mmp | hozer: zero point energy modules ;) |
| 23:36.46 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: connectors make your reliability go to shit, unless you use really expensive ones. |
| 23:36.46 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: and the number of cheap large pin count user-friendly small, easy to mount connectors can be counted on the fingers of one nose. |
| 23:36.46 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: consider also a modular modem |
| 23:36.52 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: your existing GSM module is 35*35*2mm, neglecting connectors, how large do you make the module? |
| 23:36.56 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: if you chose wrong, you either get a larger phone than needed, or a slot that won't fit a 3G module. |
| 23:36.59 | SpeedEvil | wishes modular was easy. |
| 23:37.02 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: china makes good cheap ones |
| 23:37.33 | raster | 3g ones? |
| 23:37.33 | sebbs | GSM size i did not know about, but same would be true for the GPS module |
| 23:38.20 | raster | these moduels dont have "standard sizes" |
| 23:38.23 | raster | they come in anything |
| 23:38.33 | raster | the whole point of embedded is you EMBED |
| 23:38.36 | *** join/#openmoko Varox (n=Varox@p4FD475C5.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 23:38.42 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: you're missing the point |
| 23:38.44 | raster | you dont make some thin u plug together |
| 23:38.48 | SpeedEvil | exactly. |
| 23:38.54 | raster | you cut costs, power and space by embeded |
| 23:38.58 | raster | embedded |
| 23:39.00 | raster | err embedding |
| 23:39.11 | raster | the moment u put connectors and "standarrdise" thnigs |
| 23:39.18 | raster | you waste space - as SpeedEvil said |
| 23:39.27 | raster | or u create a point of error ( a conenctor) |
| 23:39.29 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: you plan for a 35*35mm*2 module, allow for a 40*40*3mm one, and you're kind of screwed when a nice cheap module arrives that is 41mm*30mm*2mm |
| 23:39.49 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: but that is a design issue |
| 23:40.03 | raster | or you waste power (transferrign electrons down a run on a cirbuit board to another soldered on chip is much less than goinf via a connector as you have less resistance) |
| 23:40.03 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: err - yes |
| 23:40.12 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: it's inherent to a modular phone |
| 23:40.14 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: those are not very hard to solve, you just TRISS it |
| 23:40.16 | raster | and u add cost to testing, error/breakage handlign |
| 23:40.19 | raster | warranty handling |
| 23:40.19 | SpeedEvil | stabs sebbs |
| 23:40.28 | sebbs | eh |
| 23:40.34 | raster | not to mention make softwar ecosts higher as u now have to handle 1 of N possible things to be plugged in |
| 23:40.37 | raster | instead of just 1 |
| 23:40.44 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: if you don't know of the size of the 3G module at the time of the release of your modular phone, how do you plan this? |
| 23:40.51 | raster | if you can you avoid even multiple chips on the same board |
| 23:40.56 | raster | u get chips that do "all in one" |
| 23:41.01 | raster | to save more runs and power loss |
| 23:41.23 | SpeedEvil | PCs work - largely - as the slots are _huge_. |
| 23:41.38 | SpeedEvil | You're not constrained on space. |
| 23:41.42 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: well i have not acctually thought about going about and creating such a phone. more or less played with the idea due to the frustration that comes from chaning hardware all the time |
| 23:41.43 | SpeedEvil | Or power. |
| 23:42.08 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: modular is a nice aspiration. |
| 23:42.13 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: damn hard to realise. |
| 23:42.29 | sebbs | if i was to go deep into this, perhaps i would be able to give you more exact information |
| 23:42.48 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: ofcourse, that is why it has never been done before (well) |
| 23:43.10 | SpeedEvil | You can in principle do better, if you design all the stuff to go into the modules yourself. |
| 23:43.58 | SpeedEvil | But, and it's a huge but. |
| 23:43.58 | sebbs | no dude, you create a market segment out of it |
| 23:43.58 | SpeedEvil | The engineering to make a working 3G module may be almost as hard as a phone. |
| 23:43.59 | sebbs | make hardware something the people develop |
| 23:43.59 | SpeedEvil | hahahahahha |
| 23:43.59 | SpeedEvil | Hardware is NOT SOFTWARE. |
| 23:43.59 | sebbs | given a standard they follow |
| 23:44.00 | sebbs | well not yet |
| 23:44.05 | sebbs | but it is well on its way |
| 23:44.13 | SpeedEvil | You have a slot for a module. |
| 23:44.16 | ronny | most people are barely able to handle making software |
| 23:44.29 | SpeedEvil | Does it have USB only, or does it need access to the memory bus of the CPU. |
| 23:44.30 | ronny | how do you see those even remotely close to making hardware |
| 23:44.33 | sebbs | well i am not speaking about "most people" |
| 23:44.34 | SpeedEvil | Does it have an antenna, ... |
| 23:44.37 | sebbs | most people are complete idiots |
| 23:44.42 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: it's not one person |
| 23:44.47 | sebbs | evidence #1 earth |
| 23:45.04 | sebbs | i mean further along |
| 23:45.07 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: to design a working 3G plug-in-module from chips will cost well upwards of $20K |
| 23:45.23 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: that's assuming you've got the testgear and the knowledge just sitting there. |
| 23:45.25 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: yes cost is a issue |
| 23:45.34 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: and the chipmakers are open with specs, which they are not. |
| 23:45.39 | sebbs | and not making mistakes |
| 23:45.45 | sebbs | eveyr mistake would be quite expensive |
| 23:45.54 | sebbs | so you would have to have good software for it |
| 23:46.05 | SpeedEvil | The software isn't the point. |
| 23:46.13 | sebbs | software to deveop hardware |
| 23:46.17 | SpeedEvil | The software isn't the point. |
| 23:46.31 | SpeedEvil | Hardware is fundamentally different to software. |
| 23:46.33 | sebbs | depends on who is making the point |
| 23:46.42 | sebbs | ofcourse it is |
| 23:46.50 | SpeedEvil | With software, you can have a little 10 line function that interacts with nothing else. |
| 23:46.55 | SpeedEvil | You can prove this. |
| 23:47.23 | SpeedEvil | Anyone familiar with the language, that can read the functions comments can tinker with it given 5 minutes reading. |
| 23:47.27 | *** join/#openmoko anno^da_ (n=anno^da@p5B07E6AB.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 23:47.35 | sebbs | so? |
| 23:47.37 | SpeedEvil | In many cases, hardware just isn't like this. |
| 23:47.42 | sebbs | electronics are not very different |
| 23:47.53 | sebbs | its all about input and outputs |
| 23:48.00 | SpeedEvil | It interacts in multiple ways, thermal, magnetic, accoustic, electrochemical, ... |
| 23:48.08 | sebbs | yes that is true |
| 23:48.20 | sebbs | ok i see your point |
| 23:48.35 | sebbs | but that is where unittests come in |
| 23:48.54 | SpeedEvil | Again, you miss the point. |
| 23:48.58 | sebbs | and world models |
| 23:49.01 | CVirus | lol |
| 23:49.19 | SpeedEvil | unit tests can't be done reliably on isolated parts of the system, as they are not in real life isolated. |
| 23:49.30 | sebbs | define isolated |
| 23:49.36 | CVirus | modular |
| 23:49.39 | CVirus | ? |
| 23:49.43 | SpeedEvil | For example. |
| 23:50.04 | SpeedEvil | The freerunner - it has run into a problem where the clock of the SD card is somehow getting into the GPS. |
| 23:50.05 | ronny | you can never ever test hardware without affecting it by the test-intruments |
| 23:50.05 | sebbs | so you mean software would be too abstract for testing? |
| 23:50.08 | SpeedEvil | And screing it. |
| 23:50.50 | sebbs | clock |
| 23:50.52 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: Imagine if with software, you make one perfectly reasonable and correct change in that 10 line function. And the system completely stops working. |
| 23:51.00 | sebbs | getting in? |
| 23:51.06 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: through the air |
| 23:51.32 | *** join/#openmoko lollisoft (n=LotharBe@du-011-075.access.de.clara.net) |
| 23:51.44 | sebbs | but those things are not real problems, they are just due to lack of cordination/organization |
| 23:52.04 | sebbs | like the one iwth the gps/sdcard |
| 23:52.12 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: no, they aren't. |
| 23:52.13 | ronny | unlike software parts - hardware parts can never be truely isolated |
| 23:52.15 | sebbs | those issues are already known, just not applied by the designer |
| 23:52.19 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: no, they aren't. |
| 23:52.25 | sebbs | ? |
| 23:52.25 | lollisoft | Hi, does anybody use remoko here ? |
| 23:52.35 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: its physics |
| 23:52.37 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: the GPS is not documented for sensitivity at that frequency, it just happens. |
| 23:52.44 | sebbs | oh |
| 23:52.59 | sebbs | well lack of documentation is exatcly that |
| 23:53.05 | sebbs | "lack of cordination/organization" |
| 23:53.10 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: documentations on hardware parts are never, and can never be complete. |
| 23:53.18 | sebbs | define complete |
| 23:53.29 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: accurate in all circumstances. |
| 23:53.42 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: that's even assuming there are not actual errors in the documents. |
| 23:53.44 | sebbs | well nothing is "accurate in all cirumstances" |
| 23:53.50 | *** part/#openmoko lollisoft (n=LotharBe@du-011-075.access.de.clara.net) |
| 23:53.51 | sebbs | but if you create models for every known one |
| 23:53.56 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: you can't. |
| 23:53.59 | ronny | sebbs: you cannot blindly apply knowdegde from software testing to hardware hardware testing |
| 23:54.10 | *** join/#openmoko lollisoft (n=LotharBe@du-011-075.access.de.clara.net) |
| 23:54.16 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: as you cannot test hardware infinitely, because it all interacts. |
| 23:54.19 | sebbs | give me a real world example |
| 23:54.28 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: the GPS |
| 23:54.36 | sebbs | ofcourse you cannot, but you could do it well enough |
| 23:54.42 | sebbs | that was due to poor documentation |
| 23:54.49 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: it was not documented to be sensitive to energy in the waveband emitted by the SD clock. |
| 23:55.05 | lollisoft | Hi, did anyone notized my question ? |
| 23:55.13 | *** part/#openmoko FilipLinux4BE (n=Filip@77.109.120.124) |
| 23:55.22 | ronny | lollisoft: never heard of it |
| 23:55.24 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: sorry, you're not getting it, I'm ignoring this topic now |
| 23:55.41 | sebbs | i see your point though, you are just not seeing mine. |
| 23:55.46 | sebbs | but i agree lets mute this |
| 23:55.58 | SpeedEvil | sebbs: lastly to say - make a software package that reliably does this, and you can sell it for several billion. |
| 23:56.10 | lollisoft | Ok, I have problems with remoko. I have asu 2008/9 and remoko ends with an error message. |
| 23:56.43 | lollisoft | Error: ValueError: event type '0' already registered. |
| 23:57.05 | sebbs | SpeedEvil: interesting to speak with someone who has knowlage in the area, i shall read up on the topic for the future. thank you for the discussion |
| 23:57.45 | ronny | we got a lecture at our uni called "mess und Testsysteme" its losely translated as "metasurement and testing systems" |
| 23:58.31 | ronny | pretty much the first thing that was proved is - any reasonably complex hardware is never ever even remeotely complete testable |
| 23:58.43 | *** join/#openmoko Proton23 (n=proton@p57BA4DA8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 23:59.27 | ronny | and testing/metasuring will allways affect the tested hardware |
| 23:59.57 | *** join/#openmoko EtienneG (n=etienne@ubuntu/member/EtienneG) |
