| 00:02.39 | torero | good night ppl |
| 00:03.00 | *** join/#openmoko dougt (n=dougt@c-67-180-69-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 00:03.09 | hipitihop | gnite |
| 00:03.38 | Dave | Aww |
| 00:03.42 | Dave | We'll miss you hippityhop. |
| 00:03.47 | Dave | Stay cool, and stay on the map :) |
| 00:03.58 | hipitihop | sorry, responding to torero, only morning here |
| 00:04.37 | Dave | oh, hah :P |
| 00:04.39 | Dave | good! |
| 00:04.47 | Dave | Most are expiring from tango friends |
| 00:04.50 | Dave | it's rather disappointing |
| 00:05.41 | hipitihop | I haven't had any gps stuff running for a while. Mainly because I rarely go out with the FR since it is not yet very functional as main phone |
| 00:06.13 | Dave | true enough :\ |
| 00:06.18 | Dave | and the charge is well, yeah... |
| 00:06.21 | Dave | sub par |
| 00:06.49 | hipitihop | tempted to try the debian build though |
| 00:06.53 | Dave | yea |
| 00:06.57 | Dave | it's getting pretty spicy ;) |
| 00:07.10 | ljp | so qtopia is not functional as a main phone? |
| 00:07.45 | *** join/#openmoko alphabeat (n=nick@60-241-37-3.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 00:08.42 | hipitihop | ljp, well i tried the original 3.2.1 image flashed. It seemed pretty usable but stuck with no updates and only the qtopia apps, so it was a bit limiting |
| 00:09.09 | hipitihop | ljp, will have a look again as soon as I can try 4.4 |
| 00:09.34 | balrog-k1n | ljp: i didn't say that, don't beat me |
| 00:09.35 | hipitihop | but I suspect with no x11 it will still be somewhat limiting for other things |
| 00:10.38 | hipitihop | ljp, are you involved with the trolltech stuff ? |
| 00:11.01 | Dave | he's a troll! |
| 00:11.22 | Dave | don't pay him anything if he offers you passage across a questionably maintained construct! |
| 00:12.02 | hipitihop | which reminds me, bsdgames available as a package yet on fso ? |
| 00:12.26 | hipitihop | it has classic colossal cave |
| 00:12.47 | balrog-k1n | wants moon-buggy |
| 00:12.55 | balrog-k1n | it could be steered with the accelerometers |
| 00:14.09 | hipitihop | I'd like any cool game on Fr with accelerometers.... saw the latest ipod nano yesterday and has accelerometers and various games using them |
| 00:15.01 | hipitihop | ducks in case someone throws something at him for uttering about closed products |
| 00:15.49 | balrog-k1n | but they can't be player over ssh :) |
| 00:16.30 | *** join/#openmoko Marcel_M (n=Marcel_M@86.59.65.236) |
| 00:18.55 | ljp | so.. its the only one that is usable, but somehow thats limiting.... |
| 00:23.34 | hipitihop | ljp, your sarcasm suggests I have offended, no intent. From what I have seen it is the most integrated set of apps and very stable. I think qtopia on X11 is interesting. Although the theme I saw was also not my favorite but I guess that's tweakable |
| 00:24.04 | ljp | no offense taken :) |
| 00:25.14 | hipitihop | infact it is the most likely candidate to be loaded when it is out i.e. 4.4 as technically the fr is my gf's phone and so far been a desk toy |
| 00:25.32 | ljp | i just think its funny, i keep hearing that qtopia is the only usable gui, but in the same sentence, they say its not good enough/waiting for OM/<insert random phone gui> to work |
| 00:26.15 | ljp | but yet there are not a lot of developers creating new apps for things |
| 00:26.24 | hipitihop | understand, bloody users want everything ;-) |
| 00:27.00 | hipitihop | ljp, do you know if 4.4 will have corresponding desktop sync ? |
| 00:28.21 | Staticwave_Ace | mmm desktop sync |
| 00:29.08 | Dave | ljp, what's poppin' ? |
| 00:31.13 | ljp | hipitihop: i may see if we can release the windows sync desktop app |
| 00:31.35 | Dave | Windows!? |
| 00:31.58 | Staticwave_Ace | opensync definietly should be developing a sync app |
| 00:31.59 | ljp | it only syncs with outlook. you know of a Linux outlook? |
| 00:32.07 | Dave | yes |
| 00:32.14 | Staticwave_Ace | ljp: evolution, or KDE-PIM |
| 00:32.22 | ljp | thats not outlook |
| 00:32.23 | Dave | there's several |
| 00:32.25 | Dave | haha |
| 00:32.27 | Dave | pfft |
| 00:32.31 | Dave | Who'd want outlook anyway? |
| 00:32.36 | Dave | other than crappy corp execs |
| 00:32.37 | *** join/#openmoko skorzen (n=skorzen@89.181.25.68) |
| 00:32.39 | ljp | enterprise |
| 00:32.48 | Dave | who use massive, poorly-maintained, exchange servars |
| 00:32.50 | ljp | money talks |
| 00:33.12 | ljp | or, anyoine can write their own plugin |
| 00:34.18 | Staticwave_Ace | yeah, this is the kind of thing opensync should do |
| 00:34.39 | hipitihop | ljp, well one reason for buying the FR is because all my machines at home (6) run Linux and I want to use regular linux contacts,calendaring etc to sync |
| 00:34.51 | ljp | understood |
| 00:35.04 | Staticwave_Ace | wishes he had more time/skill |
| 00:35.31 | ljp | too |
| 00:35.55 | hipitihop | ljp, if my gf has to wait for me to write her a sync app she'll throw the the fr out the window and go buy an iphone. Yes I'd smack her but still. |
| 00:36.33 | zash | hipitihop: just spraypaint it pink or red |
| 00:37.15 | Staticwave_Ace | lol |
| 00:38.06 | hipitihop | for her to agree to purchase an fr and support os in the first place suggests she's not that superficial :-) but still a barely usable $400 toy on the desk is also far from expectations |
| 00:38.27 | Dave | :D |
| 00:38.35 | Staticwave_Ace | hipitihop: that's my girlfriend got a treo from me |
| 00:38.40 | Staticwave_Ace | and I lust after it sometimes... |
| 00:38.57 | balrog-k1n | would she really read her mail on this tiny screen? |
| 00:39.32 | hipitihop | balrog-k1n, ? fr screen ? |
| 00:39.36 | balrog-k1n | or is syncing about contacts? |
| 00:39.42 | balrog-k1n | hipitihop: yep |
| 00:40.39 | Dave | hippityhop, are you going to become the contacts god? |
| 00:41.22 | hipitihop | balrog-k1n, contacts, calendaring and other productivity apps but e-mail not important. |
| 00:43.25 | Dave | email is not important? :P |
| 00:43.26 | hipitihop | Dave, I'd love to help out in any capacity. Current problems 1. time (enough making a living coding) and 2. Still need to go up the Python, etk,ilume,d-bus learnign curves |
| 00:43.42 | Dave | Wonderful! |
| 00:43.47 | Dave | Yeah, I'm in a similar boat :P |
| 00:43.55 | Dave | friggin' python/dbus |
| 00:44.23 | Dave | Now it's time to find out if my freerunner can do text messaging. |
| 00:45.00 | drazak | Davebot :o |
| 00:45.29 | Dave | DRAZAKS |
| 00:45.33 | Dave | :o :o :o |
| 00:45.46 | Dave | slowly grips his sword. |
| 00:45.54 | drazak | eww |
| 00:45.57 | drazak | dude, not in public |
| 00:46.28 | *** join/#openmoko tjikkun (n=tjikkun@195-240-122-237.ip.telfort.nl) |
| 00:46.57 | Dave | haha :D |
| 00:47.06 | Dave | Geeze, text messaging is so fucked up these days. |
| 00:47.16 | Dave | There are 4 digit numbers, and twelve digit numbers. |
| 00:47.20 | Dave | gah |
| 00:47.25 | Dave | and six and seven digit numbers |
| 00:47.29 | Dave | starting with zeroes |
| 00:47.32 | Staticwave_Ace | ljp: what was the link to qtopia sync protocol: |
| 00:50.17 | *** join/#openmoko zash (n=zash@zash.se) |
| 00:51.47 | ljp | http://doc.trolltech.com/qtopia4.3/qtopiadesktop/over-desktop-synchronization-1.html |
| 00:51.56 | ljp | http://doc.trolltech.com/qtopia4.3/qtopiadesktop/qdsync-commands.html |
| 00:53.41 | *** join/#openmoko zash (n=zash@zash.se) |
| 00:54.10 | *** join/#openmoko zash (n=zash@zash.se) |
| 00:57.25 | CIA-22 | openmoko: 03werner * r4646 10/developers/werner/ahrt/host/tmc/ (7 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed) |
| 00:57.25 | CIA-22 | openmoko: Mainly dplore restructuring and making it useful in real life. |
| 00:57.25 | CIA-22 | openmoko: Highlights: |
| 00:57.25 | CIA-22 | openmoko: - fixed a few stupid bugs that made dplore painfully slow |
| 00:57.26 | CIA-22 | openmoko: - split dplore.py into components and prepared the SDIO command decoder for |
| 00:57.27 | CIA-22 | openmoko: batch processing |
| 00:57.31 | CIA-22 | openmoko: - added measurements and zoom |
| 01:00.33 | *** join/#openmoko andersfeder (n=feder@0x5552b3e2.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 01:00.42 | hipitihop | no really goes off to do some real work. |
| 01:01.56 | *** join/#openmoko captain_magnus (n=mboman@opensuse/member/MBoman) |
| 01:02.12 | captain_magnus | Is it possible to factory reset the freerunner? |
| 01:02.58 | hipitihop | captain_magnus, what does that mean ? reflash the original 2007.2 stack ? |
| 01:04.28 | captain_magnus | hipitihop: Well.. I installed debian on it, including the boot stuff as some instructions I found, and now it will only boot from the flash card... |
| 01:04.42 | captain_magnus | hipitihop: Reinstall uBoot still makes it boot only from the card |
| 01:05.31 | captain_magnus | ie, I installed gta02v5_and_up-u-boot.bin |
| 01:05.51 | *** join/#openmoko t_s_o (n=tso@135.84-49-129.nextgentel.com) |
| 01:06.06 | hipitihop | captain_magnus, I see, sorry I have not played with the debian stack yet. |
| 01:06.45 | *** join/#openmoko scarlson (n=chatzill@c-24-2-205-86.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) |
| 01:09.31 | scarlson | Hey I'm in hour 18 of my moko build... My first task is to patch glamo.c to correct for the bad touch screen coordinates when rotating between all modes except "normal". |
| 01:09.35 | scarlson | Has anyone else already built an update for that package? |
| 01:09.38 | scarlson | From what I can tell xserver-kdrive-glamo-r24 is the latest compiled binary (arm4) on the repo. which does not include the patch. |
| 01:10.12 | *** join/#openmoko ChandleWEi (n=chandle@210.13.121.62) |
| 01:15.27 | *** join/#openmoko Arg0naut (n=steveois@CPE001c10acab63-CM000a7369b290.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 01:16.21 | Dave | uggh |
| 01:16.24 | Dave | SPEAKING OF CONTACTS APPS |
| 01:16.32 | Dave | the om contacts app is SO broken |
| 01:16.38 | Dave | and difficult to understand |
| 01:17.05 | Dave | so is the messaging app |
| 01:17.07 | Dave | very strange |
| 01:17.15 | Dave | they're having some twisted affair |
| 01:18.10 | *** join/#openmoko emilis_info (n=emilis@clt-84-32-58-67.vdnet.lt) |
| 01:18.33 | Dave | uggh |
| 01:21.47 | *** join/#openmoko aum (n=aum@60-234-243-247.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) |
| 01:21.58 | aum | does anyone know the bitbake target to clean out an OE tree? |
| 01:27.03 | ljp | Dave: use qtopia :) |
| 01:28.25 | Dave | haha |
| 01:28.31 | Dave | It's funny lorn, I was just thinking the same thing! |
| 01:28.38 | Dave | Except then I'd need to use two primary phones |
| 01:28.45 | Dave | and I can't surf the net with qtopia yet, to my knowledge |
| 01:28.55 | Dave | since the mozilla build exploded on me last time I tried. |
| 01:29.06 | Dave | Oh well, I should play musical phones again soon :) |
| 01:29.11 | ljp | you can, as long as surfing means email :) |
| 01:29.15 | Dave | I hear people are struggling with fso3. |
| 01:29.17 | Dave | hah! |
| 01:29.23 | Dave | man, honestly, I'd be fine with lynx |
| 01:29.32 | Dave | but even that doesn't seem to be available |
| 01:29.36 | CVirus | l337 dave |
| 01:29.38 | ljp | i would say 'wait till 4.4' but i wont |
| 01:30.06 | ljp | Dave: what about links, its better than lynx |
| 01:30.46 | *** join/#openmoko dougt (n=dougt@c-67-180-69-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 01:31.03 | Dave | I'm old school, it's lynx or it's not. |
| 01:31.11 | Dave | Though if necessary, I'll accept a crappy substitute :) |
| 01:31.20 | Dave | Unless it's like evguisuperlinks |
| 01:31.24 | Dave | none of that silliness. |
| 01:31.40 | Dave | like egvim |
| 01:31.49 | Dave | sometimes people go too far :P |
| 01:32.00 | drazak | I use lynx(and links) for porn |
| 01:32.28 | CVirus | ascii porn |
| 01:32.45 | aum | links-x11 is actually quite a decent browser for small devices |
| 01:33.16 | FxChiP_ | egvim? |
| 01:33.27 | aum | some years back, the links developers rejected a request to render images as ASCII graphics, so I guess links-x11 is better again |
| 01:36.38 | Dave | gawd |
| 01:36.57 | *** join/#openmoko hklein_ (n=hklein@i59F740EF.versanet.de) |
| 01:37.07 | Dave | So I add a contact for someone in OM, yet I have to supply a phone number each and every time I message them in OM. |
| 01:37.16 | Dave | Man, the interface is clearly highly intuitive. |
| 01:37.32 | Dave | Oh and I'm sorry to say, you lose just as many points in the intuitive interface field, lorn. |
| 01:37.56 | Dave | You spend an hour just trying to figure out what all the little icons mean, and how to do simple tasks. |
| 01:38.03 | Dave | or in some cases, end them (if possible!) ;) |
| 01:38.08 | Dave | coughs quietly |
| 01:39.50 | ljp | ummm.. Dave.. try the Help from the menu |
| 01:39.59 | *** join/#openmoko rooly (n=rooly@host-125-92.lalacap.clients.pavlovmedia.com) |
| 01:42.23 | Dave | Oh I have |
| 01:42.29 | Dave | I've read a lot the help |
| 01:42.39 | Dave | By the way, some of the context menus are missing |
| 01:42.57 | Dave | and I guess some things don't offer any Help :( |
| 01:44.06 | rooly | well this is weird |
| 01:44.23 | rooly | does wine's configure always complain about trying to compile with gcc? |
| 01:45.40 | *** join/#openmoko skorzen (n=skorzen@89.181.25.68) |
| 01:45.53 | Dave | winemoko? |
| 01:46.00 | drazak | winemoko? :o |
| 01:46.07 | rooly | lol |
| 01:46.10 | drazak | so can you put openmoko on a centro? :o |
| 01:46.11 | rooly | nah, just complaining... |
| 01:46.22 | drazak | or just on openmoko devices? |
| 01:46.31 | rooly | i wouldn't dare try running a windows app on the moko |
| 01:46.47 | rooly | mostly because it would require a recompile and an emulator on top of wine |
| 01:46.49 | Wonka | why? |
| 01:46.54 | rooly | and -> or |
| 01:47.30 | Dave | and it had cooties! |
| 01:47.32 | Wonka | 400MHz, 128MB of RAM... I've run Windows 95 on a 486... 66MHz and 16MB of RAM |
| 01:47.56 | rooly | okay? |
| 01:48.01 | Dave | yeah but you barely scrape by on the moko OS alone! |
| 01:48.13 | Dave | it even requires swap for practical use! |
| 01:48.34 | rooly | not to mention wine is mostly mean to keep the application itself built for the architecture anyway |
| 01:48.36 | drazak | I want more ram |
| 01:48.38 | rooly | all wine does is redirect logic |
| 01:48.46 | drazak | like a gig |
| 01:48.51 | drazak | shit man, it's sdram |
| 01:49.02 | drazak | you can pick up a gig for like 50 bucks |
| 01:49.10 | rooly | i wanna know my wine configure keeps telling me gcc can't make executables |
| 01:49.39 | Wonka | a gig? you could keep the entire hard disk of that there 486 box in that, _and_ its RAM too, _and_ a linux installation with qemu too! |
| 01:49.44 | drazak | yeah |
| 01:50.20 | rooly | while your at it, why not have side-by-side microkernels each running a portion of the hardware |
| 01:50.21 | Dave | oh. my. god. |
| 01:50.30 | Wonka | woo-hoo. replace 15 kilograms of 486 PC with one Freerunner :) |
| 01:50.34 | rooly | wait...that's not a bad idea |
| 01:50.34 | Dave | And get this, the fucking messaging app neglects to list what TIME messages were sent/received. |
| 01:50.38 | Dave | it only lists the Date |
| 01:50.46 | rooly | lol, of course, dave |
| 01:50.49 | Dave | Gee, that's helpful! |
| 01:50.54 | rooly | really, sms time is rather pointless |
| 01:50.55 | Dave | Thanks Openmoko. |
| 01:50.57 | Wonka | what's time to a robot? |
| 01:51.08 | rooly | since a message can arrive anywhere between 10 seconds and 10 days after it's sent |
| 01:51.12 | Dave | apparently they won't survive make theirs, anyway, Wonka. |
| 01:51.21 | SpeedEvil | rooly: but rarely before |
| 01:51.27 | Dave | speedevil :D |
| 01:51.28 | Wonka | ALL YOUR BASE! |
| 01:51.29 | rooly | lol |
| 01:51.39 | Dave | mov zig,fgj |
| 01:51.40 | Wonka | MOVE ZIG! |
| 01:51.46 | Dave | :D:D:D |
| 01:51.47 | Wonka | *5* |
| 01:51.54 | Dave | Indeed! |
| 01:53.21 | CVirus | roses are red |
| 01:53.25 | CVirus | violets are blue |
| 01:53.31 | CVirus | all my base, are belong to you |
| 01:54.34 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 01:56.26 | *** join/#openmoko Torikun (n=rusher@astound-69-42-18-131.ca.astound.net) |
| 01:56.43 | Dave | Wow, and that "special characters" key on the matchbox-keyboard, it'd be nice if it DID anything! |
| 01:56.46 | *** part/#openmoko Torikun (n=rusher@astound-69-42-18-131.ca.astound.net) |
| 01:57.00 | Dave | CVirus, well, that's certainly better than a lot of other things it could have been :P |
| 01:57.03 | Dave | haha |
| 01:57.23 | Dave | Coming from you, I figured more along the lines of, all my std's are belong to you? |
| 01:57.29 | Dave | shudders |
| 01:57.55 | rooly | sighs |
| 01:58.02 | CVirus | LOL |
| 01:58.06 | Dave | Openmoko, stealing your sanity since 2006. |
| 01:58.08 | rooly | i want to use om2008, but it's so intensely slow |
| 01:58.36 | Wonka | aaaaieee. |
| 01:59.17 | rooly | mostly because the keyboard is faster, resume works better to a fair degree, and sms is more fun |
| 02:01.08 | scarlson | NOTE: Applying patch 'enable-xcalibrate.patch' (/home/scott/code/mokobuild/openembedded/packages/xorg-xserver/xserver-kdrive-1.3.0.0/enable-xcalibrate.patch) |
| 02:01.11 | scarlson | Awesome.. I'm 90% done with the mokobuild... and it looks like my wish came true. i didn't even have to do anything. |
| 02:01.11 | Wonka | why do i have mysql-common on my bleeping debian on my freerunner?!? apparently because it is needed by libmysqlclient15off which is needed by libgmyth0 which is needed by gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad which is needed by fso-frameworkd |
| 02:01.13 | scarlson | Thanks to whomever did that. |
| 02:01.44 | Wonka | WHY the F*** does fso-frameworkd DEPEND on gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad? |
| 02:01.55 | Wonka | and why does that one depend on libgmyth0 anyway? |
| 02:02.42 | Dave | Wonka, roflcopter. |
| 02:02.56 | Wonka | when i see stuff like that, i don't wonder anymore that debian needs so much more space... |
| 02:02.59 | rooly | wtf roflcopter ftw |
| 02:03.06 | Dave | I wonder if there is any way for me to inject foreign characters into Messages |
| 02:03.11 | *** join/#openmoko oon_ (n=oon@ankhoon.net) |
| 02:03.23 | Wonka | LOLercoaster, anyone? |
| 02:03.23 | rooly | is qtopia's sms utf8? |
| 02:03.35 | rooly | lollerblades are more my preference |
| 02:03.35 | Wonka | no, it's WTF-9 |
| 02:03.40 | Dave | Let me boot it and find out |
| 02:03.41 | Dave | haha :D |
| 02:03.42 | Dave | awesome |
| 02:04.01 | Wonka | btw, UTF-7 rocks da house |
| 02:04.53 | Dave | I am constant aggravated by the lack of an external SIM slot loader. |
| 02:04.58 | Dave | constantly. |
| 02:05.43 | Wonka | yeah, right. |
| 02:06.17 | Wonka | +IKw- |
| 02:06.32 | Wonka | that was an Euro sign in UTF-7, btw |
| 02:06.42 | Dave | haha |
| 02:06.57 | Wonka | (what did it look like?) |
| 02:07.23 | rooly | wine has a crapload of dependencies... |
| 02:07.33 | rooly | 200 or more megs |
| 02:07.33 | Dave | No kidding |
| 02:07.37 | Dave | Wonka, in plain text? |
| 02:07.40 | rooly | build deps, i mean |
| 02:07.44 | Wonka | Dave: yes |
| 02:07.48 | Dave | +IKw- |
| 02:07.55 | Wonka | oh, nice |
| 02:07.59 | Dave | :P |
| 02:07.59 | rooly | ... |
| 02:08.13 | Dave | friggin' openmoko-terminal doesn't support unicode characters |
| 02:08.14 | Dave | argh |
| 02:08.16 | Dave | pos :D |
| 02:08.30 | Wonka | ah, »echo ⬠| recode ..UTF-7« does work too |
| 02:08.31 | Dave | I guess changing the keyboard layout was for naught then :P |
| 02:08.55 | rooly | stupid euro signs |
| 02:09.01 | Dave | stupid eurotrash |
| 02:09.03 | rooly | likes his moneys |
| 02:09.18 | Wonka | yeah, damn keyboard supports Umlauts, glyphs are there too, but the terminal does garbage. |
| 02:09.21 | rooly | fonkey british pounds anyday to ugly E's |
| 02:09.26 | *** join/#openmoko tjikkun (n=tjikkun@195-240-122-237.ip.telfort.nl) |
| 02:09.40 | Dave | Wonka, right. |
| 02:09.53 | rooly | but $ is the best |
| 02:10.03 | Dave | $$ |
| 02:10.14 | Wonka | i'd take USD any day, iff it was more stable than EUR... which it isn't, currently. |
| 02:10.23 | rooly | not my fault |
| 02:10.28 | rooly | i didn't default on my mortgage |
| 02:10.29 | Wonka | look how they're cascading like dominoes :) |
| 02:10.54 | Wonka | 613 billion dollars LOST |
| 02:11.08 | rooly | idiots are idiots, no matter how rich |
| 02:11.13 | Dave | :D |
| 02:11.33 | Wonka | that's like putting one million USD on every single meter from hamburg to munich. |
| 02:11.56 | rooly | or giving every person in the world 100 bucks |
| 02:12.07 | Wonka | taxpayer's expense. |
| 02:12.15 | rooly | ok, more like 85$'s |
| 02:12.18 | Wonka | amerika, fuck yeah! |
| 02:12.22 | rooly | lol |
| 02:12.29 | rooly | it was a hilarious movie |
| 02:12.36 | rooly | ok, no it wassn't |
| 02:12.39 | Wonka | TA:WP rocks da haus |
| 02:12.47 | Wonka | Hans Blix! |
| 02:12.53 | rooly | but it was mildly entertaining at the "FAG" part |
| 02:12.54 | Wonka | and tha FAG |
| 02:13.02 | Wonka | and Maaatt Daaamooon |
| 02:13.13 | rooly | my favorite character of all of 'em |
| 02:13.30 | Wonka | and in reality, he's not like that at all... |
| 02:13.41 | Wonka | just look at http://youtube.com/v/C6urw_PWHYk |
| 02:14.24 | rooly | right... |
| 02:14.36 | Wonka | by the way, i like the sinfest.com web comic |
| 02:14.39 | rooly | gonna rebuild wine so's i can play my cracked spore |
| 02:14.59 | Wonka | and it's piglet satire on palin |
| 02:15.14 | Wonka | waaay before obama's "lipstick on pig" sentence |
| 02:15.14 | rooly | sinfest.net goose |
| 02:15.39 | Wonka | maybe. got a link list on my start page, i just click it :) |
| 02:15.46 | doc|home | pffft, this election is a full makeover on two fatass pigs |
| 02:15.59 | Dave | high-fives Wonka |
| 02:16.34 | Wonka | i don't like that guy Obama chose as his Vice... what was his name again? |
| 02:16.48 | rooly | biden |
| 02:16.56 | Wonka | but i even more dislike McCant and Miss Piglin |
| 02:17.14 | rooly | alright, wanna hear a "connection" that my bitch-ex-sister-in-law made? |
| 02:17.40 | Wonka | grumpy old reactionaire and shortsighted religious zealot |
| 02:17.43 | Wonka | rooly: fire away |
| 02:17.46 | rooly | "obama...close to osama. biden...like binladen? eh? eh?" |
| 02:17.59 | Dave | :D |
| 02:18.02 | cjb | sighs. |
| 02:18.04 | Wonka | heard better ones |
| 02:18.05 | Dave | It's a conspiracy! |
| 02:18.23 | Dave | In other news, Terrorists win... the whitehouse election!? o_O |
| 02:18.30 | rooly | she also made a bitch comment on my attending an islamic dinner thing |
| 02:18.33 | Dave | haha, that'd be hilarious, yet utterly sad [for our nation] |
| 02:18.41 | rooly | "what's next? jewish supper thursdays?" |
| 02:18.45 | Dave | What's new, cjb? |
| 02:18.53 | cjb | Dave: I see dumb racist people |
| 02:19.00 | Dave | :( |
| 02:19.03 | Dave | are they from the south? |
| 02:19.05 | rooly | no me, right? |
| 02:19.17 | cjb | rooly: nah |
| 02:19.18 | rooly | i'm just repeating for the sake of entertainment |
| 02:19.24 | Wonka | hell yeah, let's photoshop some CS style "terrorists win" shot of the white house with McCant in front... |
| 02:19.25 | rooly | whew... |
| 02:19.44 | rooly | someone should make a whitehouse CS:S map |
| 02:19.50 | rooly | i wouldn'tplay cause i don't own css |
| 02:20.02 | Wonka | quake 3 arena map |
| 02:20.12 | Dave | :p |
| 02:20.13 | rooly | still needs a usb-to-mini-usb converter |
| 02:20.21 | rooly | so's i can plug my gamepad in |
| 02:20.22 | Dave | HUMILIATION! |
| 02:20.34 | rooly | ut3 map! |
| 02:20.37 | Wonka | MOMOMOMOnsterkilllll |
| 02:20.49 | Dave | TF2!? |
| 02:20.52 | Dave | hahahaha |
| 02:21.07 | Wonka | UT GOTYE was cool. and the mutator system was the best i've ever seen. |
| 02:21.08 | rooly | does either ut3 or that new 3ps-mmo have a linux version yet? |
| 02:21.34 | Wonka | where else had someone built a "Crotch Shot" mod? |
| 02:21.45 | Dave | :D |
| 02:22.14 | *** join/#openmoko slaxxin (n=brian@ip70-178-27-23.ks.ks.cox.net) |
| 02:22.18 | Dave | uh oh |
| 02:22.29 | Wonka | Crotch Shot and BatThwap together with a .50 Heavy Assault Rifle on Face][ was something i liked very much... |
| 02:23.52 | slaxxin | carlason wht u got cooking? |
| 02:24.46 | Dave | uh oh, it's slaxxin |
| 02:24.54 | Dave | What's newb tonight? :D |
| 02:25.00 | slaxxin | moi |
| 02:25.19 | slaxxin | i nubular |
| 02:25.22 | Wonka | get back to work, you slaxxers! |
| 02:25.33 | slaxxin | damnit man |
| 02:25.44 | Dave | :D |
| 02:25.47 | Dave | haha, YES |
| 02:25.54 | Wonka | DN3D rocks too |
| 02:26.00 | Wonka | JFYI :) |
| 02:26.06 | slaxxin | we need to get some them slackers intrested in this project |
| 02:26.11 | Dave | wolf3d |
| 02:26.15 | Wonka | time to kick ass and chew bubblegum - and i'm all out of gum |
| 02:26.20 | Dave | :D |
| 02:26.28 | Dave | HL!? |
| 02:26.35 | Dave | bwahaha |
| 02:26.40 | Wonka | your ass, your face - where's the difference... |
| 02:26.43 | slaxxin | CS? |
| 02:27.32 | slaxxin | i sometimes run a counterstrike server |
| 02:27.44 | Dave | heh |
| 02:27.55 | Wonka | didn't play CS for years... |
| 02:31.02 | *** join/#openmoko LaF0rge (n=laforge@prithivi-vpn.gnumonks.org) |
| 02:32.05 | Wonka | oh hai |
| 02:32.37 | Wonka | mr. netfilter, gpl-violations, etc pp :) |
| 02:34.36 | *** join/#openmoko tjikkun (n=tjikkun@195-240-122-237.ip.telfort.nl) |
| 02:36.42 | *** join/#openmoko raster (n=raster@124-170-38-16.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 02:37.47 | Dave | heh |
| 02:41.29 | Wonka | hoh |
| 02:55.23 | *** join/#openmoko jancona (n=jancona@pool-70-19-208-157.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 02:59.20 | *** join/#openmoko jpieper (n=jpieper@207-180-187-171.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com) |
| 03:01.01 | rooly | yup |
| 03:01.06 | rooly | wine is still compiling |
| 03:04.31 | *** join/#openmoko tjikkun (n=tjikkun@195-240-122-237.ip.telfort.nl) |
| 03:05.40 | FxChiP_ | GPL violations eh? |
| 03:09.44 | Dave | Good luck with that :) |
| 03:12.50 | Wonka | FxChiP_: gpl-violations.org |
| 03:13.09 | Wonka | FxChiP_: he already won some cases |
| 03:13.35 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE001217b19226-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 03:14.46 | Wonka | against sitecom, longshine, tomtom, d-link, ... |
| 03:16.05 | CIA-22 | openmoko: 03werner * r4648 10/developers/werner/wlan-spi/vds/ (bd.py vds.py): |
| 03:16.05 | CIA-22 | openmoko: - vds.py: increase sleep - 50s were too close for comfort |
| 03:16.05 | CIA-22 | openmoko: - bd.py: primitive batch decoder for SDIO commands and responses |
| 03:21.32 | ieatlint | Wonka, is theGPL licence itself GPLed? |
| 03:21.53 | CIA-22 | openmoko: 03werner * r4649 10/developers/werner/ahrt/host/tmc/ (demo/dxplore.py lib/crc.py lib/decode.py setup.py): (log message trimmed) |
| 03:21.53 | CIA-22 | openmoko: Highlights: |
| 03:21.53 | CIA-22 | openmoko: - added CRC7 checking and SDIO R5 SPI response decoding |
| 03:21.53 | CIA-22 | openmoko: - more decoding bugs fixed |
| 03:21.55 | CIA-22 | openmoko: Details: |
| 03:21.57 | CIA-22 | openmoko: - lib/crc.py (crc): CRC7 and CRC16 calculation |
| 03:22.01 | CIA-22 | openmoko: - lib/decode.py (d_sdio_cmd, d_crc7_msb): verify CRC7 in SDIO commands |
| 03:23.50 | cjb | ieatlint: see the preamble |
| 03:23.52 | cjb | > Copyright (C) 2007 Free Software Foundation, Inc. <http://fsf.org/> |
| 03:23.52 | cjb | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:23.52 | cjb | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:24.20 | ieatlint | bastards and their draconian policies to prevent alterations |
| 03:24.36 | aum | wtf? |
| 03:24.53 | aum | doesn't the license say that you can change/redistribute the code, but you must leave the license intact? |
| 03:25.13 | cjb | aum: no. |
| 03:25.34 | cjb | whether you may leave the license intact is covered by copyright law, not the license itself. |
| 03:25.40 | *** join/#openmoko tjikkun (n=tjikkun@195-240-122-237.ip.telfort.nl) |
| 03:25.58 | cjb | or maybe you're making a different point that I don't understand. |
| 03:26.10 | cjb | anyway, we were talking about the license text itself, not code covered by it. |
| 03:27.48 | playya | i think he means that is not allowed to fork a similiar license |
| 03:28.20 | rwhitby | there should be a click-through eula that ensures you accept that condition before reading the GPL license text ... |
| 03:28.23 | ieatlint | my understanding of the gpl, is that you may use and modify the software freely, and sell such software by itself or as part of something else (copyrighted software, or as the os for hardware, etc) |
| 03:28.39 | ieatlint | but you must provide the source for free to any gpl stuff |
| 03:28.51 | *** join/#openmoko tenzind (n=tenzin@202.144.158.199) |
| 03:28.55 | aum | my only worry about gpl is the vagueness of the term 'derived work' |
| 03:29.04 | rwhitby | not just the gpl stuff, but anything derived from it as well - it's a viral license |
| 03:29.27 | ieatlint | if you use it as a model, then sure |
| 03:29.50 | ieatlint | but if you write something to work with GPLed code, then it's not auto-GPLed |
| 03:30.03 | rwhitby | it is under some circumstances |
| 03:30.19 | ieatlint | eg, i can write a kernel module for linux -- if i copy a bunch of code from another module as a base layout for my own, then it's "derived" |
| 03:30.33 | ieatlint | if i write it from scratch, then i can keep it closed (see nvidia) |
| 03:30.40 | rwhitby | e.g. if you link the two things into a single binary executable and distribute that executable, then you've just open sourced your proprietary bit |
| 03:31.06 | *** join/#openmoko alphabeat1 (n=nick@60-241-37-3.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 03:31.15 | aum | case in point - I've written an interpreter and development system for Forth programming, and was considering offering a wrapped libsigsegv (which is GPL) as an optional plugin - and the libsigsegv authors argued that even offering the lib within a plugin would gpl-infect the main code core |
| 03:31.42 | rwhitby | yes, dynamic linking is a grey area of the GPL which hasn't been tested in court as far as I know |
| 03:31.46 | aum | even though the plugin api has no resemblance to libsigsegv, and the linkage is dynamic |
| 03:31.58 | rwhitby | static linking is clear cut |
| 03:32.03 | rwhitby | separate executables is clear cut |
| 03:32.10 | aum | i don't mind gpl's virulence, but I do object to the vague 'derived work' wording |
| 03:32.21 | ieatlint | hmm |
| 03:32.38 | ieatlint | so you're saying if i use glib, my source may be forced into the GPL domain? |
| 03:32.48 | aum | rwhitby: separate executables may not be clear cut - for example, a gpl'ed daemon that listens for commands on a TCP socket - could argue that it infects its client |
| 03:32.50 | rwhitby | if glib is GPL, yes. |
| 03:32.51 | ljp | or lgpl |
| 03:32.59 | aum | ieatlint: glib is lgpl |
| 03:33.39 | ieatlint | ah, i've not actually looked into it... i happily take the legal-ignorance road generally |
| 03:33.39 | ieatlint | i release my stuff openly, so i never need to worry |
| 03:33.39 | Tronic | rwhitby: AFAIK separate executables aren't "clear cut". |
| 03:33.54 | rwhitby | Tronic: ok, let me rephrase it as "merely aggregated" is clear cut |
| 03:33.55 | Tronic | rwhitby: E.g. you cannot write non-GPL GUI frontend to GPL CLI tool(s). |
| 03:33.58 | ieatlint | my knowledge is based on seeing the "compliance" by companies which have used linux in their products |
| 03:34.12 | Tronic | If the frontend cannot work without the GPLed programs, that is. |
| 03:34.30 | rwhitby | Tronic: if it works with both GPL and non-GPL versions of the same CLI tool (e.g. BSD cat and GNU cat) then you most certainly can |
| 03:34.38 | Tronic | Yes. |
| 03:34.47 | aum | the argument is if that the design of your code is significantly influenced by the design or API of a piece of gpl code which it talks to (by whatever means, whether static/dynamic link, sockets, carrier pigeon datagrams..) then your code becomes a 'derived work' and thus falls under gpl |
| 03:35.10 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-254.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 03:35.23 | ieatlint | aum, that argument would imply that any kernel module is forced GPL |
| 03:35.27 | ieatlint | which is clearly not the case |
| 03:35.35 | Wonka | not clearly |
| 03:35.42 | rwhitby | aum: if the link is not covered by copyright law, then it's not a link that you need to worry about, since the GPL is only upheld by copyright law and the legal definition of derived works |
| 03:35.44 | playya | aum, so youu think if you derive from GObject it has to be GPLed? |
| 03:35.54 | aum | enjoys having a gpl discussion while waiting for his fresh OE tree to build |
| 03:35.55 | Wonka | there are arguments that nvidia's kernel module is a GPL violation |
| 03:35.58 | *** join/#openmoko charlie137 (n=charlie@firewall.tw.openmoko.org) |
| 03:36.10 | rwhitby | kernel modules are a clear grey area |
| 03:36.13 | Tronic | Isn't Nvidia's kernel interface GPL, anyway? |
| 03:36.15 | aum | rwhitby: there's the worry - what's the 'legal definition' of derived works? |
| 03:36.16 | rwhitby | some say they are ok, some say they are not. |
| 03:36.20 | ieatlint | "a clear grey area" ... i like that |
| 03:36.24 | rwhitby | aum: ask your lawyer :-) |
| 03:36.33 | aum | playya: from what I've been told, quite possibly |
| 03:36.44 | Wonka | Tronic: the interface is. the blob is not. and the blob needs to be linked to the interface... |
| 03:37.12 | Tronic | Wonka: Yes, but since Nvidia wrote both, they don't need a license to "break" their own license on the interface. |
| 03:37.33 | Tronic | Dunno how well that would stand in court, though. |
| 03:37.43 | Wonka | Tronic: but later, it's all linked to the kernel... |
| 03:37.43 | aum | the linkage mechanism is irrelevant - SOAP connection, static link, sockets, shell script invocation... they're all the same from a legal pov afaik |
| 03:38.03 | rwhitby | Tronic: the fact the gpl-violations.org has not taken kernel modules to court yet tells me that the FSF does not think they could win a case against kernel modules |
| 03:38.04 | Wonka | i'd _so_ like it if nvidia was forced to open the source of their blob... |
| 03:38.06 | Tronic | Wonka: But then, the blob is not written specifically for Linux. |
| 03:38.22 | Tronic | Wonka: Nvidia claims that they can use the same blob on Windows and Linux. |
| 03:38.25 | aum | on waiting for OE to generate an image is sooo frustrated not to have a beefy 645-bit quad box |
| 03:38.32 | Wonka | Tronic: i don't believe that |
| 03:38.33 | Tronic | (the "Linux Advantage" slides) |
| 03:38.36 | ieatlint | rwhitby, it also could mean they want to pick their battles so as not to hurt ht ecommunity |
| 03:38.38 | aum | s/645/64/ |
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| 03:38.54 | ieatlint | if nvidia were told they couldn't do binary-only modules, they could just say "ok, fuck it then" |
| 03:39.04 | aum | Tronic: don't you mean 'Linux Genuine Advantage'? :P |
| 03:39.37 | Wonka | ieatlint: i'd rather go with Intel GMA X4500 anyway |
| 03:39.41 | rwhitby | ieatlint: if you don't prosecute violating cases, then your position looses strength |
| 03:39.49 | aum | ieatlint: gpl authors often issue exemption certificates - I do that myself if it's a good cause or a company is willing to pay |
| 03:39.52 | rwhitby | so obviously kernel modules is not a position that the FSF cares aobut |
| 03:39.53 | rwhitby | about |
| 03:40.02 | ieatlint | true, but if the violation isn't clear, you can reserve such judgement indefinitely |
| 03:40.31 | Tronic | Wonka: My bet is that X4500 is completely unsuitable for gaming, the same as X3100. |
| 03:40.52 | rwhitby | there are so many instances of proprietary kernel modules, then either the FSF would have prosecuted by now, or else they don't care. |
| 03:41.03 | Tronic | Also, X3100 still doesn't support blitted video surfaces or vsync setting by driver. Or video/3d gamma correction, ... |
| 03:41.05 | aum | would it be ludicrous to ask if openmoko for iPhone might be under consideration? |
| 03:41.07 | Wonka | it is directx 10 compatible |
| 03:41.08 | playya | i think they don't take them to court because it might scare companies from writing module. not depending on the license they might use |
| 03:41.21 | johnsu01 | rwhitby: fsf is not the copyrgiht holder |
| 03:41.27 | ieatlint | aum, yes |
| 03:41.32 | Tronic | Doesn't support OpenGL with compositing, either. |
| 03:41.34 | johnsu01 | rwhitby: also gpl-violations.org is not fsf |
| 03:41.45 | rwhitby | johnsu01: yes, that is very true, but they often act on behalf of copyright holders |
| 03:41.52 | rwhitby | johnsu01: true again |
| 03:41.57 | Tronic | (video with compositing is also rather broken) |
| 03:42.01 | johnsu01 | rwhitby: we have no standing to do that unless linux contributors assign copyright to us |
| 03:42.16 | rwhitby | the fact still remains that GPL prosecutions are going on, and nobody is prosecuting anyone about kernel modules. |
| 03:42.17 | johnsu01 | rwhitby: but in fact there have been some kernel developers very vocally opposed to binary modules on legal grounds |
| 03:42.26 | ieatlint | johnsu01, not necessarily |
| 03:42.36 | rwhitby | johnsu01: yes, but none of them have taken it to court, so the point is moot until then |
| 03:42.40 | ieatlint | a private citizen can argue they are entitled to the source as per the GPL, which grants them such rights |
| 03:42.42 | johnsu01 | rwhitby: linux foundation would be the people to talk to about that |
| 03:42.48 | ieatlint | they can sue for it rather than for compliance |
| 03:43.06 | Wonka | anyway. i'll go to bed now. |
| 03:43.10 | johnsu01 | ieatlint: no, they can't -- the license that is being violated is granted by the copyright holder, so it's the copyright holder who has to bring action |
| 03:43.30 | ieatlint | the copyright holder can claim violation of his copyright, yes |
| 03:43.42 | rwhitby | only the copyright holder can, nobody else. |
| 03:43.47 | ieatlint | but the company is in a legally binding agreement with the gpl to provide the source, and you can sue for it |
| 03:43.59 | ieatlint | you aren't suing for copyright violation |
| 03:43.59 | rwhitby | nope. |
| 03:44.03 | johnsu01 | ieatlint: I dunno what to say other than you won't get very far with that :) |
| 03:44.23 | rwhitby | unless you're in the US, where you can sue for anything |
| 03:44.32 | ieatlint | hah |
| 03:44.43 | mwester_ | gets up to call his lawyer to sue rwhitby for that statement |
| 03:44.52 | ieatlint | well, i'll concede to the seemingly more informed people |
| 03:44.57 | ieatlint | lol |
| 03:44.59 | cjb | ieatlint: johnsu01 works at the FSF. |
| 03:45.15 | cjb | so yeah, that would have been a good idea anytime ;-) |
| 03:45.25 | johnsu01 | is not the licensing person in particular but is pretty sure on this point, unfortunately |
| 03:45.46 | cjb | there are some people who hold copyrights on the kernel code who are interested in suing, and many more people who are interested in compliance |
| 03:45.58 | ieatlint | well, then sounds like vigilanty justice is my only choice |
| 03:46.05 | cjb | but suing is rarely the answer, so even the people who'd quite like to sue are open to persuasion to just applying pressure. |
| 03:46.39 | cjb | the point of the GPL is build a society where people release code. if someone isn't playing along, it doesn't help that goal to force their code out of them. it would be better if they decided to release it by themselves. |
| 03:46.49 | cjb | s/force/legally force/ :) |
| 03:47.02 | cjb | in fact, I think the FSF has never sued anyone over GPL compliance |
| 03:47.08 | *** join/#openmoko datenmau1wurf (n=datenmau@e178177175.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 03:47.19 | johnsu01 | that's true, though it has been very very close |
| 03:47.29 | cjb | it's pretty simple -- they say "we could sue you, and we'd win, because either you accept the GPL's conditions or you don't have a license to use this code." |
| 03:47.34 | cjb | they == FSF |
| 03:48.05 | cjb | that's usually enough. no-one really wants to actually go to court. |
| 03:48.51 | aum | courts are mainly about who can afford the best lawyers |
| 03:49.01 | ieatlint | how about i just release software that violates the gpl, but contains extremely simplistic encryption, and threaten anyone who calls me on violating the gpl with a reply that they must've violated the DMCA to find out i did |
| 03:49.17 | *** join/#openmoko cheng (n=cheng@xGagB214.WH1.TU-Dresden.De) |
| 03:49.23 | rwhitby | cjb: I agree with all you say. The fact still stands that there are many instances of proprietary kernel modules, and even though lots of people are making noise about it (and interestingly, Linus himself doesn't seem to make too much noise about it), there seems to be no precedent which would cause companies like nVidia to open the source to kernel modules unless there was a *business* (rather than a GPL license) reason to do so. |
| 03:49.24 | aum | ieatlint: tell it to the judge |
| 03:49.41 | cjb | rwhitby: I disagree that Linus doesn't make noise about it, though I agree that he isn't threatening to sue anyone. |
| 03:49.46 | johnsu01 | rwhitby: patents are often the problem there |
| 03:50.09 | cjb | heard a keynote from Greg Kroah-Hartman (one of the largest contributors to Linux) where he said "BINARY-ONLY MODULES ARE ILLEGAL." |
| 03:50.22 | aum | recalls some crack/warez traffickers who click-wrapped their stuff in EULAs that forbid taking any action on behalf of the copyright holder |
| 03:50.23 | cjb | Plenty of noise being made. It's actually working on AMD/ATI, Intel, in some instances. |
| 03:50.40 | rwhitby | cjb: there was a patch to the kernel submitted a while back to block proprietary kernel modules, and Linus NACK'd it. |
| 03:50.42 | cjb | I think pretty much all that's left is nVidia, and AMD's market pressure could easily get them to start distributing specs. |
| 03:50.56 | cjb | rwhitby: Of course he did. That patch tried to block *use*, and the GPL tries to block *distribution*. |
| 03:51.10 | ieatlint | rwhitby, how could you patch the kernel to prevent proprietary kernels? |
| 03:51.17 | rwhitby | cjb: ah, yes. that's a very good point. |
| 03:51.21 | mwester_ | they tried. |
| 03:51.31 | johnsu01 | ieatlint: they are detected now and print warnings |
| 03:51.39 | cjb | ieatlint: just by hinting major PCI functions as being GPL symbols, which means the kernel refuses to link them with non-GPL modules. |
| 03:51.58 | mwester_ | Someone tried to make the default behavior to not load non-GPL modules; it didn't fly. |
| 03:52.08 | rwhitby | of course since the kernel is open source you can just patch those things out :-) |
| 03:52.20 | ieatlint | that's kinda what i meant |
| 03:52.36 | cjb | yup. just a social convention. |
| 03:52.53 | rwhitby | but that just shows the point that cjb made about the distinction between use and distribution, which I hadn't fully considered regarding that kernel patch until now |
| 03:53.01 | rwhitby | (thanks cjb for making that point) |
| 03:53.21 | raster | bloody politics.... :) |
| 03:53.27 | ieatlint | what was it though... something like ... all kernel modules must contain this symbol to work, and btw, that symbol is GPLed, so for it to contain it the module must be GPL-compliant? |
| 03:53.36 | cjb | ieatlint: yes. |
| 03:53.45 | cjb | not all, but it was the main pci access functions. |
| 03:53.46 | *** join/#openmoko fobos (n=fobos@78.90.88.244) |
| 03:55.06 | cjb | rwhitby: I don't think Greg K-H realized at the time he proposed it, actually, or had at least temporarily forgotten about it. He withdrew the patch for that reason the next day. |
| 03:55.09 | ieatlint | well, how about that, i never noticed the kernel tain warning for nvidia |
| 03:55.32 | ieatlint | taint |
| 03:56.03 | rwhitby | anyway, to get back to the original question, static linking is clear cut, dynamic linking (including kernel modules) is not clear cut (although a lot of people think it is), tightly coupled executables may not be clear cut (unless you can show that one end is a standard with defacto non-GPL implementations already available) and "merely aggregated" is clear cut. |
| 03:56.07 | ieatlint | it'd be nicer if the nvidia module actually worked at a respectable level |
| 03:56.19 | aum | how are sales of the freerunner? |
| 03:57.00 | ieatlint | openmoko isn't saying |
| 03:57.08 | rwhitby | so be sure to talk to your lawyer first unless you have merely aggregated binaries that do not communicate with each other :-) |
| 03:57.09 | aum | oh |
| 03:57.18 | ieatlint | but enough that i believe they've done at least 3 production runs, with plans for more |
| 03:57.20 | mwester_ | It's quite ridiculous if you think about it; if GPL were to win, there would be less software source code of any significance anyway. So they lose either way: the kernel needs to accept closed drivers so that Linux is used more widely, and is useful on more platforms, or GPL can win, and Linux will run only on ancient old systems leaving Windows as the only solution for new hardware. |
| 03:57.47 | aum | would love to guy a freerunner, but his wife would kill him for blowing NZ$630, so he's waiting for a price drop or eBay |
| 03:57.53 | aum | s/guy/buy/ |
| 03:57.58 | ieatlint | rwhitby, what if i released binaries that had no GPL software in them, but were entirely useless without GPL software? |
| 03:58.18 | unknown_lamer | mwester_: bullshit there are only a few binary drivers compared to all of the gpl drivers |
| 03:58.22 | rwhitby | ieatlint: that case is explicitly talked about in the FSF FAQs |
| 03:58.31 | unknown_lamer | mwester_: and not a single one of those binary drivers is for essential hardware |
| 03:58.40 | unknown_lamer | I mean ... ok so nvidia and some wifi crap? Whatever. |
| 03:58.45 | mwester_ | unknown_lamer: I always hear that argument. Doesn't hold water. |
| 03:58.55 | unknown_lamer | How is Windows doing with AHCI? Last I heard so terrible as to be unusable. |
| 03:59.01 | mwester_ | Sure I don't need a nic, nor a display. |
| 03:59.06 | rwhitby | unknown_lamer: there are far more binary drivers than the ones that you use. There are hundreds of times more linux installations on embedded devices than on desktops. |
| 03:59.16 | ieatlint | what about ndiswrapper...? :P |
| 03:59.31 | rwhitby | maybe thousands or tens of thousands |
| 03:59.32 | ieatlint | that's like saying certain windows drivers violate the gpl because i can use them in linux |
| 03:59.43 | unknown_lamer | mwester: there are several vendors supporting gpled drivers for their graphics and wifi hardare |
| 03:59.55 | unknown_lamer | ieatlint: actually no |
| 04:00.08 | mwester_ | Nah, let my computer beep morse code at me... I'll run windows if I want to use the graphics on it! :D That'll sure make Linux a growing platform, and that sort of draconian view of licensing will drive away anyone who DOES wish to develop software for Linux. |
| 04:00.19 | unknown_lamer | ieatlint: ndiswrapper has to be gpl, but not the windows drivers because they were not written for the gpled interface |
| 04:00.24 | ieatlint | unknown_lamer, don't ruin my joke. i get violent. |
| 04:00.57 | unknown_lamer | I suppose that is how nvidia gets around things ... |
| 04:00.58 | ieatlint | unknown_lamer, ok, so then i'll make a GPL'd ndiswrapper-like tool and then write closed kernel modules that require this tool to be used |
| 04:01.22 | unknown_lamer | ieatlint: unless the implementation existed for another platform first as a standard library that will not fly |
| 04:01.58 | rwhitby | ah cool, my disk restore has finished so I can stop wasting time talking about GPL now :-) |
| 04:02.11 | unknown_lamer | there was a similar situation with clisp--they used readline, tried to write a dummy interface to get around the gpl requirement, and it was not ok |
| 04:02.13 | ieatlint | unknown_lamer, oh, so i'm only allowed to write copyrighted code that works? :P |
| 04:02.33 | unknown_lamer | ieatlint: s/the/a/ |
| 04:02.35 | unknown_lamer | an |
| 04:02.41 | unknown_lamer | close enough |
| 04:02.58 | cjb | does ndiswrapper still exist? |
| 04:03.07 | raster | i think a dummy pluggable interface is viable... |
| 04:03.07 | ieatlint | ok, i'm off to get some food, bbl |
| 04:03.10 | cjb | anyway, I think ndiswrapper was on very shaky legal ground too. |
| 04:03.15 | *** join/#openmoko tomjoad460 (n=tomjoad4@adsl-70-130-176-119.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) |
| 04:03.20 | raster | if u have sufficiewnt viable alternatives to the gpl'd "module" |
| 04:03.30 | unknown_lamer | cjb: yes I had the displeasure of having a friend install ubuntu and try to get me to debug crashes for him... thanks to fucking ndiswrapper |
| 04:03.43 | cjb | yeah |
| 04:04.03 | raster | eg if you are trying to plug a gpl module in as a "Workhorse" |
| 04:04.04 | unknown_lamer | I just dealt with having no wifi until a few months ago when my broadcom chipset was finally reverse engineered enough |
| 04:04.08 | raster | if u only havre 1 module and its gpl |
| 04:04.29 | raster | then that system effectively is gpl as the module "infects" the wrapper system that uses it |
| 04:04.33 | unknown_lamer | I still can't scan so all of the fancy freecrap.useallmyramfornoreason stuff refuses to work with it, but good old /etc/network/interfaces works wonderfully |
| 04:04.37 | raster | if there is just 1 gpl moduel among several |
| 04:04.40 | raster | others not being gpl |
| 04:04.45 | cjb | something really irritates me about people who want to cheat the GPL, when it applies to the kernel |
| 04:04.50 | cjb | it's not because they're writing proprietary software |
| 04:04.57 | cjb | I have friends who do that. Whatever. |
| 04:05.00 | raster | then u can argue that it is an open pluggable interface and it is a users actions that plug in a gpl module |
| 04:05.04 | cjb | It's that they're violating the license of a piece of software |
| 04:05.09 | raster | not the authors that force something to depend on gpl |
| 04:05.23 | cjb | where their whole argument is that piracy is bad and no-one should do it; it's exactly what they're doing to Linux |
| 04:05.31 | raster | so trying to create some modular api just tocheat the gpl isnt right |
| 04:05.37 | raster | thus it stil lapplies |
| 04:05.40 | cjb | "oh, I like this kernel, oh look, it has licensing terms that give me responsibilities, well, screw the responsibility" |
| 04:05.45 | raster | but if u genuinely have apluggable interface |
| 04:06.04 | raster | and a gpl plug-in is just one of several - u have legitimately separated layers and i'd say that is ok |
| 04:06.33 | ljp | raster: so your saying dbus just isn't right? |
| 04:06.51 | rwhitby | cjb: fully agree when it comes to kernel source. Not sure I 100% agree when it comes to dynamic linking of proprietary modules (since the licensing of those may not have been clear when they made the decision to use the kernel) |
| 04:07.05 | raster | ljp: oh wait.. i am meaning "wuthin same memory space" |
| 04:07.08 | raster | within |
| 04:07.14 | raster | ie dlopen for example |
| 04:07.38 | cjb | rwhitby: yeah. well, I'm not sure it matters to the law whether it's inconvenient to them to follow the license, but I get the idea. |
| 04:07.49 | raster | dbus on the other hand... i think it has been well established that when its a separate process and no memory space is shared - the license seases to stretch across |
| 04:07.57 | cjb | on the plus side, I'm actually really optimistic about the state of kernel modules |
| 04:08.01 | raster | so gpl doesnt "infect" beyond an ipc layer |
| 04:08.09 | raster | so it acts like lgpl does for libs |
| 04:08.11 | cjb | two years ago we had no ATI docs, no broadcom drivers, intel wireless with binary blobs |
| 04:08.24 | cjb | and now pretty much all that's left is nVidia |
| 04:08.26 | rwhitby | cjb: it certainly doesn't matter to the law, and that's my point. Companies usually only care about law and profit, not community. |
| 04:09.10 | cjb | rwhitby: I think there are several examples where we could say a company has decided that the community works in its interest and that it'd like to join |
| 04:09.11 | rwhitby | cjb: you're still only referring to the desktop, which is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Linux usage |
| 04:09.14 | cjb | but I agree in general. |
| 04:09.29 | cjb | that's true, there are still binary-only RAID modules out there. |
| 04:10.18 | rwhitby | take Linux phones, for instance. it's a whole different story to the desktop story you're telling (just to bring this discussion back on topic) |
| 04:10.33 | cjb | rwhitby: well, I have one right here that's in pretty good shape :) |
| 04:10.34 | raster | aye |
| 04:10.37 | mwester | cjb: You know nothing of "mwester-co" and the fundamental change in computing hardware that I'll be releasing with my (fictitious) company --- it'll change computing hardware forever, and I'll be happy to distribute binary drivers for it, but if I have to release source, then IBM will gain many months of development time with their competing product. So what is best for Linux then? |
| 04:10.44 | raster | and as such i think theres more linux phones than linux desktops |
| 04:11.04 | cjb | mwester: IBM's competing product will be GPL'd too, and everyone will live in shiny hippy harmony. |
| 04:11.07 | rwhitby | Linux on the desktop is easy to get companies to change habits, since it's easy to plug and play x86 PC hardware cards. |
| 04:11.20 | rwhitby | For embedded devices, it's a whole new ball game. |
| 04:11.21 | mwester | cjb: you live in a different universe, one without money, I think. |
| 04:11.31 | cjb | mwester: I'm not sure I understand what your point was. |
| 04:11.39 | cjb | IBM's going to steal your code and use it to get to market first? |
| 04:11.45 | cjb | well, if your code is GPL'd, they can't. |
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| 04:12.16 | mwester | my point is that you can have drivers -- binary -- or you can have nothing for linux. Those are the two choices. Is it better that Linux be left out of new technology at all, or should it suffer a bit with non-GPL drivers? |
| 04:12.23 | rwhitby | cjb: sure they can, as long as they are prepared to open the source of the rest of the product. |
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| 04:12.38 | cjb | rwhitby: right. in which case everyone wins. |
| 04:12.39 | mwester | cjb: No, IBM will use my source code to reverse engineer the hardware. |
| 04:12.47 | cjb | Oh. Complicated. |
| 04:13.02 | rwhitby | cjb: everyone except the company that spent 40 man years developing the code and doesn't make a profit from it |
| 04:13.07 | cjb | You don't think they could.. use your hardware to reverse engineer your hardware? |
| 04:13.19 | mwester | Or worse yet, use my source code to find the bugs in my hardware, then use that against my company in bids for contracts, thus putting me out of business. |
| 04:13.20 | cjb | I mean, they're presumably competent at that kind of thing. |
| 04:13.26 | mwester | How does that help Linux? |
| 04:13.27 | rwhitby | and the 100 employees who can't feed their children cause they lost their job because of this situation ... |
| 04:13.38 | cjb | mwester: you assume the point of a free software community is to get more users. |
| 04:13.43 | rwhitby | but society benefitted, so all is well :-) |
| 04:13.49 | cjb | and other people assume that the point of a free software community is to have free software. |
| 04:14.03 | cjb | and both sides have lots of people in them. neither one of them has a monopoly on correct viewpoints. |
| 04:14.16 | mwester | cjb: Ah, you are correct. I stand corrected, it's like the religions that believe that only a select finite few will be saved? |
| 04:14.28 | cjb | mwester: I don't think it's like that at all. |
| 04:14.30 | mwester | Linux: it's not for everyone! |
| 04:14.34 | johnsu01 | doesn't buy this argument that the only way to make a living as a programmer is to sell a blackbox product |
| 04:14.38 | mwester | Linux: the OS for the 777 purest! |
| 04:14.50 | rwhitby | yeah, any ideology that can't accept a competing ideology is too much of an ideology for my liking ... |
| 04:14.52 | unknown_lamer | halfway to freedom is not freedom |
| 04:15.02 | unknown_lamer | it's like java ... halfway to lisp is ... hell |
| 04:15.05 | mwester | Life is full of compromizes |
| 04:15.12 | mwester | Pick your compromise. |
| 04:15.20 | mwester | I choose cheap, fast hardware. |
| 04:15.26 | rwhitby | But don't tell someone else that they can't have a different compromise. |
| 04:15.27 | cjb | mwester: note that you're now sufficiently confused to be sounding *more* intolerant than GPL advocates. Something got messed up here. |
| 04:15.37 | johnsu01 | I picked openmoko so I didn't have to compromise anymore ;) |
| 04:15.40 | mwester | I never said I'm tolerant of silliness. |
| 04:15.43 | cjb | mwester: well, I choose software freedom. Your compromise is not my compromise. |
| 04:15.44 | mwester | Just pragmatic! |
| 04:15.53 | cjb | ooh, yes, play the pragmatist card |
| 04:16.03 | mwester | What card are you playing? |
| 04:16.07 | cjb | because no-one who you disagree with *ever* thinks that they might actually be pragmatists too. |
| 04:16.18 | cjb | I'm playing the "mwester is being intolerant" card. |
| 04:16.32 | playya | but properitary s/w might be good for the employment market: develop a s/w twice needs at least twice of the people |
| 04:16.33 | cjb | why does it offend you that some people might not need your compromises? |
| 04:16.37 | mwester | So I take it your not so hard-line as you come across in your argument. |
| 04:16.48 | cjb | and might be willing to take a principled stand on something? |
| 04:17.10 | cjb | mwester: No, I am. I don't use proprietary software or binary-only drivers, and I refuse to develop proprietary software. |
| 04:17.12 | cjb | But they're personal choices. |
| 04:17.24 | mwester | Take your stand, just don't push it on everyone else -- that's what I'm objecting too, that's what the issue with the kernel GPL modules was all about. |
| 04:17.30 | cjb | I'm not berating anyone for disagreeing with me. It's a luxury I am because I don't have kids to feed or whatever, and I'm thankful for it. |
| 04:17.31 | rwhitby | cjb: do you go down as far as hard disk firmware ? |
| 04:17.39 | cjb | rwhitby: Nope. |
| 04:17.45 | mwester | Good point, it IS a luxury. |
| 04:18.05 | rwhitby | cjb: so everyone just draws their own line somewhere |
| 04:18.05 | raster | mwester: i'm with you on the "moderates" side of the aisle :) |
| 04:18.09 | cjb | rwhitby: Absolutely. |
| 04:18.13 | raster | maye as much open as possible |
| 04:18.17 | raster | then give theuser a choice |
| 04:18.21 | raster | much like nvidia |
| 04:18.25 | raster | u either get 3d accel |
| 04:18.26 | mwester | With that, I'll leave you to your luxury, and I'll be very happy with my nvidia graphics driver; we're both happy with Linux, and that's how it should be! |
| 04:18.31 | raster | but pay for it with a closed driver/lib |
| 04:18.42 | raster | or u get boring 2d but still a working system |
| 04:18.52 | raster | and then users can vote with what they actually do. |
| 04:19.14 | rwhitby | raster: just like openmoko hey? :-) |
| 04:19.55 | cjb | mwester: some people, of course, make these choices when it isn't easy for them to do so. I'm lucky that I don't have to be put in that situation. |
| 04:20.04 | Trevinho | hi raster... I've just read the news (well, quite old yet) about your left from Openmoko... This made me so sad :( |
| 04:20.23 | cjb | at least, at this point in my life. I actually am thinking about having kids soon, and I do intend on continuing to stick to the free stuff. |
| 04:20.41 | raster | rwhitby: pretty much. just pretend it has no "accel" (beyond blit and fill and yuv->rgb+scale) |
| 04:20.43 | raster | :) |
| 04:20.55 | raster | Trevinho: gee that took a while to filter through! |
| 04:20.55 | raster | :) |
| 04:20.55 | rwhitby | as soon as you have kids it doesn't matter anyway, cause you no longer have time to do any hacking ... |
| 04:21.09 | cjb | rwhitby: well, my hacking is my day job. |
| 04:21.09 | raster | rwhitby: i can imagine |
| 04:21.14 | cjb | but I understand :) |
| 04:21.34 | raster | maybe like grilfriends |
| 04:21.41 | raster | u no longer have time... |
| 04:21.43 | rwhitby | cjb: work becomes the refuge, instead of the other way around ;-) |
| 04:21.44 | raster | :) |
| 04:21.54 | Trevinho | eh... However I was figuring that since some time... |
| 04:22.16 | cjb | rwhitby: yeah :) |
| 04:22.18 | cjb | rwhitby: do you have kids? |
| 04:22.22 | rooly | sighs |
| 04:22.29 | rooly | anyone wanna write my english paper for me? |
| 04:22.33 | raster | Trevinho: well it was heading that way for a bit. i'm fine though. i have some cool stuff to do right now. |
| 04:22.34 | rooly | it's a really stupid paper |
| 04:22.34 | raster | :) |
| 04:22.40 | rwhitby | cjb: I'm 40, with two kids. A real old fart. |
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| 04:22.52 | rwhitby | but not as old as mwester ;-) |
| 04:22.59 | cjb | :) |
| 04:23.09 | rooly | it could be worse, rwhitby. you could have morphan's (or whatever) and be near the end of your life |
| 04:23.20 | raster | rwhitby: god damn. old fart! |
| 04:23.33 | raster | thought he was old for #openmoko |
| 04:23.42 | rwhitby | rooly: exactly - arguing over GPL can be put in perspective when you look at people dying ... |
| 04:23.57 | rooly | oh, no, gpl is all important |
| 04:24.04 | cjb | There's a definite inverse correlation between age and whether people are willing to write proprietary software, I think. |
| 04:24.20 | rooly | wretches at people who make code impossible to be useful aka gpl3 |
| 04:24.20 | cjb | I think GPL is important because I spend most of my day writing software, and not most of my day helping people to avoid dying. |
| 04:24.30 | cjb | maybe if that was different, I would care less about free software. |
| 04:24.45 | rooly | free software ftw |
| 04:24.47 | rwhitby | cjb: we need different people to be caring about a whole range of different things |
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| 04:24.54 | cjb | rooly: I released a new project under AGPLv3 this morning. Does it pain you? :) |
| 04:24.57 | cjb | rwhitby: yup! |
| 04:24.58 | rooly | but software that causes other dependant software to be free... |
| 04:25.09 | rooly | i don't like that |
| 04:25.11 | cjb | (it's http://blog.printf.net/articles/2008/09/15/an-ssh-public-keyserver ) |
| 04:25.11 | Trevinho | I can figure... however I can't undestand how Om can loose a dev like you... I understood your reasons (reading the past mails you didn't seem happy about the way used by Om to control the development), but I really appreciated what you've built for us in few months |
| 04:25.36 | cjb | rooly: do you hate freedom? ;-) |
| 04:25.50 | rwhitby | Trevinho: maybe OM just realised they need to get the kernel right first before worrying about the bling ... |
| 04:25.54 | rooly | no, cjb |
| 04:26.10 | rooly | however, in forcing someone to conform to an ideal, it removes other freedoms |
| 04:26.10 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 04:26.28 | cjb | anyway, GPL doesn't magically cause other people's software to be free. it offers them a choice of using the GPL'd software if they're willing to make their code free, or writing it themself or getting software from somewhere else. |
| 04:26.31 | raster | Trevinho: i have better things to do with my time :) so i am now doing that. trust me. i love embedded... i jsut am not goign to be doing ":what i am told" by people. i will do what i know is right and wil produce usable results quickly and that will last a long time. |
| 04:26.34 | cjb | I don't see any forced coercion there. |
| 04:26.48 | Trevinho | rwhitby: bling? |
| 04:27.19 | raster | Trevinho: right now i have a contract for doing more efl stuff for embedded (phone stuff) and am building a simply toolkit geared for that. |
| 04:27.26 | rooly | calling it forced isn't really correct |
| 04:27.42 | cjb | rooly: I would say that it advances societal freedom at the expense of the individual freedom of someone who wants to remove freedoms from society. |
| 04:27.44 | rooly | but making it a required option scares away commercial devs |
| 04:27.56 | rooly | i'll agree to that. |
| 04:28.02 | cjb | And there are lots of tradeoffs like this. You aren't allowed to let your dog poop on the sidewalk without picking it up. |
| 04:28.18 | cjb | Is that an affront to your individual freedom? Sure. But societal freedom is more important in many cases. |
| 04:28.20 | raster | Trevinho: unfortunately i have another contract knocking on my door for doing an open kdrive driver for a new "gpu/co-processor" for embedded systems. (its hyper-cool and the kind of thing you really should have if uwant an OPEN system with gfx accel) |
| 04:29.03 | rooly | i prefer that the developer decide for themselves if the software is open or not |
| 04:29.06 | cjb | Personally, the best thoughts I've had about why I'm here and what I should do with my life involve making society better more than they involve making society worse, so I'm cool with the tradeoff. |
| 04:29.15 | Trevinho | that seems cool... |
| 04:29.21 | *** join/#openmoko datenmaulwurf (n=datenmau@e178177175.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 04:29.21 | raster | though this baby is hyper cool.. beats glamo out of the water :) |
| 04:29.35 | Trevinho | It's too easy doing that :D |
| 04:29.37 | cjb | rooly: I guess part of the problem is that I'm not much of a capitalist |
| 04:29.42 | rooly | even if i do enjoy the benefits of free, and push them as hard as i can, i don't like forcing other people to conform to my ideal just to use my product |
| 04:29.48 | rwhitby | Trevinho: by "bling", I'm referring to the situation where a phone has a really cool window manager on it, with hundreds of loadable modules for all sorts of execellent theming, but can't reliably suspend and resume :-) |
| 04:29.50 | cjb | I think people will act in their own interest instead of society's if given a chance, many times. |
| 04:29.58 | rooly | ie, i'm a zlib license guy |
| 04:30.05 | cjb | rooly: You mean to distribute a changed version of your product. |
| 04:30.12 | cjb | The GPL doesn't force anyone to do anything to use GPL'd code. |
| 04:30.16 | raster | Trevinho: they already have an open sdk, and a simulator - though its a primitive one. needs more work. |
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| 04:30.41 | raster | cjb: *IF* u have a qtopia phone.. it does |
| 04:30.43 | parodyoflanguage | <rooly> i prefer that the developer decide for themselves if the software is open or not <-- I prefer that the user decide. |
| 04:30.45 | mwester | observes that labels like "capitalist" don't apply too well to people who are trying to make ends meet, pay a mortgage, feed a family, and pay for education |
| 04:30.45 | rooly | orly? guess i heard wrong |
| 04:30.56 | cjb | (I think it's an important distinction to make, because many people will "use" a product, and a very small number will try to convert that product into one with fewer freedoms.) |
| 04:30.58 | Trevinho | ah, well rwhitby... Of course the kernel development is important... But what Illume is reallly a great piece of software. We can't loose it! |
| 04:31.09 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Right. Should we optimize for all of the users, or for a single developer? |
| 04:31.12 | raster | cjb: there is no (sane) way to display anything other than using qt/tqopia to even display som ething... and thus u are FORCEd to use gpl code, or not suport the platform at all. |
| 04:31.13 | rwhitby | Trevinho: nothing can be lost, it's open source |
| 04:31.19 | Trevinho | yes, yes... |
| 04:31.38 | cjb | raster: Yes, I don't use qtopia for that reason. |
| 04:31.47 | raster | sure |
| 04:31.50 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Optimize? I thought we are talking about "open source"? |
| 04:31.51 | raster | u can do imaginative workarounds |
| 04:31.56 | raster | liek write an xserver for qtopia |
| 04:31.57 | raster | then use x |
| 04:31.57 | rooly | anyway |
| 04:31.59 | raster | etc. |
| 04:32.04 | raster | anyway... |
| 04:32.05 | Trevinho | but what raster did alone has never been made by others imho. |
| 04:32.13 | rooly | no point in arguing over different types of open source |
| 04:32.18 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: It's an economist term. It means, do we try to make life better for the many users, or do we try to make life better for the few developers? |
| 04:32.31 | ljp | raster: someone could port xqt to qtopia 4 |
| 04:32.32 | raster | Trevinho: u need people to work on both ends. as such the stuff i do can be done without any hardware at all. |
| 04:32.38 | raster | ljp: they could. |
| 04:32.43 | cjb | and, it's pretty easy to show that "optimizing" life for the developers is the wrong way around. It gives the developer an inflated sense of importance. |
| 04:32.43 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Oh, you're talking about utility. |
| 04:32.48 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Yes. :) |
| 04:33.01 | raster | ljp: but in the end u come up with imaginative workarounds due to a license. |
| 04:33.14 | raster | ljp: u could just chvt() to another console and write to the fb |
| 04:33.19 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: I don't know about that. When developers are also users, I think the win goes back to the developer. |
| 04:33.22 | raster | but i was talking 'sane" :) |
| 04:33.22 | Trevinho | eh, of course... |
| 04:33.59 | ljp | :q |
| 04:34.04 | ljp | whoops |
| 04:34.18 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Or when users are also developers, the win stays with the users :) |
| 04:34.20 | cjb | confused now. |
| 04:34.21 | rooly | correct me if i'm wrong, but gpl3 requires software based on it to be oss, right? |
| 04:34.26 | cjb | rooly: sure. |
| 04:34.26 | rooly | just something i heard |
| 04:34.37 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: And that's what FS is about, at it's core. If you privilige the developer, you're separating people: developers vs users. If you privilige the user, then you're actually bringing people together under the same roof. Being a developer doesn't alienate him from everyone else. |
| 04:34.38 | cjb | rooly: no-one would ever force you to base your software on gpl3 code. |
| 04:34.45 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: yup! |
| 04:34.48 | Trevinho | well, it's time to going to bed for me (well, it's 6:30 am here, so it should be the time for getting up, but I'm quite crazy when I've some source files in front of me :P)... Btw I just hope that the raster future work will be usefull also for the Om-hardware owners... |
| 04:34.49 | raster | Trevinho: i know that e/illume tend to fit int he profile (cpu/ram/storage) of pretty much any modern embedded device. |
| 04:34.59 | raster | so i can pretty much just ignroe the actual device |
| 04:35.02 | cjb | rooly: so, this means that you have a choice. if you aren't willing to offer the same freedoms to your users, you go base your code on something else instead. |
| 04:35.04 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: If you understand that, you understand the fs philosophy. Too many people don't get it, it's kind of abstract. |
| 04:35.07 | rooly | whereas gpl2 didn't have the restriction |
| 04:35.16 | cjb | rooly: no, gpl2 has it too. |
| 04:35.27 | rooly | ic...then what was the big change? |
| 04:35.28 | cjb | there aren't large differences between gpl2 and gpl3 (in my opinion) |
| 04:35.34 | cjb | it's to do with patents, mainly. |
| 04:35.39 | rooly | ahhh, ok |
| 04:35.52 | rooly | then i'm not a gpl guy, even if i firmly agree with it's ideals |
| 04:36.14 | rooly | some |
| 04:36.32 | raster | Trevinho: as u saw. i'm doing a theme fixup for illume. i havent gone awya. i'm just mostly focuse on some paying work and will do this stuff in spare time. when some new/better phone comes out that i can develop for sanely.. i will jump onto supportign that too. right now i build e+illume for my FR's, my zaurus c860 - and i will throw it onto my n800 in a bit. just build fso for these. |
| 04:36.42 | rwhitby | sees licenses and operating systems as simply tools - just use the right one for the right job each time |
| 04:36.54 | cjb | I think quite a lot of it is tied in with socialist/libertarian philosophy, but I haven't really heard anyone make that argument before. |
| 04:37.07 | cjb | To the extent that socialists care about societal rights and libertarians care about individual, personal rights. |
| 04:37.22 | rooly | makes me a libertarian... |
| 04:37.27 | rwhitby | what do you call someone who cares about both? |
| 04:37.28 | cjb | And so the libertarians (BSD people) say "my license is more free than yours!" because they're talking about individual rights. |
| 04:37.29 | rooly | at least i'm not a librarian |
| 04:37.36 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: The only thing that comes close is Marx's discussion on alienation. But it doesn't get involved with political ideologies. |
| 04:37.47 | cjb | And the socialists (GPL people) say "my license is more free than yours!" because they're talking about societal rights. |
| 04:37.54 | raster | playes with his iphone-style togglebutton widget |
| 04:38.07 | parodyoflanguage | But the FSF perspective is that copyright isn't a legitimate right to begin with, at least with software. |
| 04:38.08 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I wonder what Marx would have thought of technology with zero marginal cost. |
| 04:38.17 | rooly | raster, is the qtopia image not deathly slow yet? |
| 04:38.28 | rooly | because i'm tired of texting so slowly |
| 04:38.30 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Eh, ignore Marx's economics. It's totally bogus. |
| 04:38.38 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: hm, not sure about that. I mean, they *use* copyright. I think they just argue that some of the things you can do with copyright are bad. |
| 04:38.41 | raster | ro qtopia image? no idea. never used it myself. just seen it running |
| 04:38.48 | rooly | ic |
| 04:38.52 | rooly | then wtf are you doing? |
| 04:38.54 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: yeah. at the least, it doesn't apply well to the software world. |
| 04:38.55 | ljp | slow? in what way? |
| 04:39.06 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: They subvert copyright and use it against it's intent. |
| 04:39.13 | cjb | kind of wishes there was a modern philosopher who could reason about how to act in a world with zero marginal cost. |
| 04:39.15 | rooly | well, the last 3 times i used it, all the qtopia and core apps were either slow as shit or written in python |
| 04:39.21 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: You don't get anywhere by simply boycotting copyright :) |
| 04:39.28 | Trevinho | I've saw and I appreciate it so much... I always liked you for being a "community-developer" . I'm happy you'll rest with us, but I was happier if you continued to be _our_ developer :P |
| 04:39.42 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I guess I've never heard anyone at the FSF call for copyright abolition |
| 04:39.50 | cjb | they certainly do call for software patent abolition |
| 04:39.55 | rooly | wanted to join the fsf |
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| 04:39.58 | rooly | didn't have the cash... |
| 04:39.59 | cjb | but not copyright. which makes me think they're okay with it in general. |
| 04:40.02 | cjb | did join the fsf. |
| 04:40.22 | rooly | i agree with software copyright |
| 04:40.34 | rooly | since, afterall, it is basically a written work in a way |
| 04:40.40 | cjb | I think I do too. It's not harmful in the same way that patents are. |
| 04:40.48 | Trevinho | Anyway this is not possible, so I'll be happy to use the work you'll do as an hobby ;). |
| 04:40.58 | ljp | qtopia is not slow |
| 04:41.07 | ljp | you must be thinking about asu |
| 04:41.18 | rooly | what was released as om2008 |
| 04:41.24 | rooly | was slow every time i tried it |
| 04:41.34 | cjb | with a patent, even if I come up with the same idea later, I can't use it. That makes patents utterly broken for software, where everything is a reusable idea. |
| 04:41.38 | rooly | slow to boot, slow to load, and slow to turn off |
| 04:41.56 | ljp | rooly: thats not qtopia |
| 04:41.56 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html |
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| 04:42.08 | Trevinho | ljp: I've made some patches for qtopia-x11, maybe they could be applied to the fb version?! |
| 04:42.19 | Trevinho | They're at http://3v1n0.net/openmoko/?C=M;O=D |
| 04:42.39 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Thanks, looks like you're right. |
| 04:42.56 | rooly | ljp, fine, qtopia-x11-port |
| 04:43.16 | cjb | I guess I'm not upset with software copyright law at the moment, but it allows me to do all the free software stuff I want. The problem that I see is that some people choose not to do the same. ;-) |
| 04:43.22 | ljp | rooly: nope. thats not even the x11 'port' either :) |
| 04:43.37 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: I think the idea is that copyright is okay for books, etc.; but with software it causes more harm than good. |
| 04:43.40 | ljp | thast just some qtopia parts |
| 04:43.51 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: another zero marginal cost difference, yeah. |
| 04:44.00 | rooly | ljp, it was mostly the dialer and sms |
| 04:44.04 | rooly | when i tried it |
| 04:44.08 | rooly | which was over a month ago |
| 04:44.27 | Trevinho | the only thing slow in the qtopia-fb version is the dialer durning an incoming call... |
| 04:44.32 | cjb | Eben Moglen puts it a good way -- "if you could make an extra loaf of bread by taking one loaf and pushing a button, what would be the ethical justification for denying bread to someone else who was hungry?" |
| 04:44.38 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Well, IMHO, I think software copyright is bad. It effectively tells you what you can and can't do with the software on your own machine. I think you forget that if you're already using a free OS. |
| 04:44.39 | Trevinho | I've missed many calls since it doesn't reply so fast as in asu |
| 04:44.43 | Trevinho | and it's so strange! |
| 04:44.50 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: No, it doesn't tell you that. |
| 04:44.57 | ljp | Trevinho: thats been fixed |
| 04:44.57 | cjb | Copyright doesn't cover use. |
| 04:45.15 | cjb | It tells me what I can distribute (or not) of the software on my machine. |
| 04:45.16 | rooly | meh...it kind of does with the dmca |
| 04:45.27 | cjb | End User License Agreements often cover ways of restricting use, but they have nothing to do with copyright. |
| 04:45.28 | Trevinho | ah, cool ljp... I'm not using the fb version so often since I like to play with many x11 tools... |
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| 04:45.47 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: What about "For educational purposes only" or "For non-commercial use only"? |
| 04:45.50 | Trevinho | who knows if the 4.4 version will make me change idea.... :P |
| 04:45.56 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: That's a EULA. |
| 04:46.06 | cjb | If it's talking about use. |
| 04:46.19 | rooly | could people please stop basing browsers on webkit? the same buffer overflow keeps showing up |
| 04:46.37 | rooly | chrome, all versions of apple's browser...(whats it called) |
| 04:46.37 | cjb | If it's talking about "can be distributed to other people only if they're doing educational use", then it's copyright, but then it's not about use. |
| 04:46.46 | mwester | cjb: The issue is not always the incremental cost of a loaf of bread; it is the initial investment cost to create the unlimited supply of bread in the first place. I'm certain Eben has considered that as well, no? |
| 04:47.04 | rwhitby | cjb: the fsf has to love copyright, since it's the only law under which the GPL can operate |
| 04:47.07 | cjb | mwester: yes. |
| 04:47.13 | parodyoflanguage | mwester: Valid point. |
| 04:47.20 | cjb | rwhitby: That's my feeling, yeah. |
| 04:47.22 | mwester | Good. Just for completeness. |
| 04:47.25 | parodyoflanguage | A lot of these examples don't work when you think about them. |
| 04:47.43 | cjb | mwester: That's an economic issue, but not an ethical one. |
| 04:47.49 | parodyoflanguage | Like loaves of bread, under the hood of a car: they try to convey the idea, but they fail if you examine it too closely. |
| 04:48.10 | cjb | If someone is hungry and I have a loaf of bread, I should give them a free one regardless of how much the first one cost to make. |
| 04:48.23 | cjb | because it doesn't cost me anything to do so, and it's the ethical thing to do. |
| 04:48.28 | mwester | cjb: if only ethics were so simple. |
| 04:48.31 | parodyoflanguage | For me, it's about control. Period. I don't need to make up some crappy analogy to get the point across. If people dont want control over their own computers, allow me to take it from them and see if they change their mind about that. |
| 04:48.35 | cjb | mwester: go on? |
| 04:48.57 | mwester | No, there are some fundamental viewpoints that make any discussion of this sort interminable. |
| 04:49.07 | mwester | I'll go back to coding. |
| 04:49.15 | mwester | I have to get some work done yet! :D |
| 04:49.18 | FxChiP_ | :P |
| 04:49.33 | cjb | Okay, that's fine. I'd like to hear the objection sometime. |
| 04:49.43 | parodyoflanguage | Yeah, you aren't obligated to give someone else a loaf of bread even if you could produce as many as you want. |
| 04:49.56 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: oh, I disagree with that. |
| 04:50.00 | FxChiP_ | yeah |
| 04:50.08 | FxChiP_ | Everyone should just base their browsers on Gecko |
| 04:50.23 | parodyoflanguage | Rather, if, after you do give someone a loaf of bread, you can't tell them they aren't allowed to make bread pudding with it. |
| 04:50.30 | mwester | Sure. Sometime we can discuss details. But basically, the choice is often that I can share the bread, but if I get nothing in return then I too end up starving tomorrow -- and is that ethically responsible to myself? (not to mention those who depend upon me) |
| 04:50.31 | cjb | if someone dies from hunger when I could have fed them for no cost to myself, that sounds pretty ethically dubious to me. |
| 04:50.42 | cjb | mwester: Oh, you've missed the point completely. |
| 04:50.52 | cjb | We are hypothesizing a world in which bread can be duplicated. |
| 04:50.57 | cjb | By giving someone else bread, I keep mine. |
| 04:51.08 | cjb | This is an interesting world to hypothesize, because it is the world of digital content. |
| 04:51.26 | cjb | I don't lose my copy of Linux when I give you one :) |
| 04:51.35 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Yeah, but you're breaking the analogy if you start talking about starving people. No one dies from lack of software. |
| 04:51.50 | mwester | As long as you can hypothesize fictional worlds where there is no cost to developement of the bread int he first place, then you might be right. But that's not reality. I dont' work for free. Nor do (or will) you. |
| 04:51.59 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Perhaps not, but they could certainly experience a lesser quality of life. |
| 04:52.15 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: So you're using a slippery slope. |
| 04:52.25 | cjb | mwester: My salary does not depend on software-hoarding. |
| 04:52.36 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. |
| 04:52.40 | rooly | hmm |
| 04:52.41 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Personally, I don't hold myself responsible for the happiness of the world. |
| 04:52.42 | rooly | yes...they do |
| 04:53.02 | rooly | people die when the software to control the x-ray machine that kills the cancer isn't there |
| 04:53.03 | raster | rooly: ummm.. why qould i be using the qtopia image? eh? sorry... i'm not with you? :) |
| 04:53.05 | mwester | software-hoarding? I don't know what that means. |
| 04:53.06 | raster | err |
| 04:53.07 | raster | would i |
| 04:53.13 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I don't either, but when there are things I could do that would help people at little cost to me, I try to do them. |
| 04:53.18 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: We all give to charity, right? |
| 04:53.24 | cjb | That's holding a measure of responsibility for the rest of the world. |
| 04:53.28 | cjb | It doesn't have to be an absolute measure. |
| 04:53.48 | mwester | Because I won't give away copies of the software that my employer owns, and I am paid to work on, am I guilty of some ethical crime, then? |
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| 04:53.51 | FxChiP_ | What's up now? |
| 04:54.01 | cjb | mwester: You seemed to be implying that I couldn't hold my viewpoints because I won't work for free. Well, I don't work for free, and I don't work on proprietary software. |
| 04:54.05 | cjb | So something's gone wrong in your analogy. |
| 04:54.20 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: But that's not an ethical obligation. Some think say, like maybe Christians. But ethicists make a distinction between things that you are forbidden not to do, and things that are good to do but aren't obligatory. |
| 04:54.26 | mwester | No, nothing wrong with it -- your viewpoint fails to consider the whole of the reality. |
| 04:54.51 | mwester | That's why I say -- your view works if you can continue to hypothesize worlds that do not exist in reality. |
| 04:54.55 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: There are many ethicists -- every utilitarian, for example -- who would claim that we do indeed have an obligation to minimize suffering. |
| 04:54.56 | mwester | Like infinite bread. |
| 04:55.12 | rooly | i couldn't stand eating only bread |
| 04:55.16 | cjb | mwester: Yes, I think it would be wrong to refuse to share. |
| 04:55.19 | rooly | at least a little salt and pepper |
| 04:55.22 | rooly | and maybe some oj |
| 04:55.31 | cjb | But that's a weird situation that I don't imagine getting myself in. I just wouldn't take a job that required me not to share like that. |
| 04:55.46 | rooly | that's a hard line to toe |
| 04:55.47 | mwester | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:55.56 | parodyoflanguage | You're obligated to save a child from drowning in a pool if you're able. But you're not obligated to donate to charity, even though it's a good thing to do. |
| 04:56.04 | rwhitby | wonders how anti-software-patent people justify drinking coca-cola(TM) when the recipe for coke is patented ... |
| 04:56.08 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: But there's no difference. |
| 04:56.25 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Hundreds of kids die every day. Why am I ethically freed from saving them just because they're in another continent instead of in a pool next to me? |
| 04:56.28 | parodyoflanguage | mwester: It's a crappy analogy anyway. :) |
| 04:56.30 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I think that's absolutely false. |
| 04:56.35 | rooly | rwhitby: because coka-cola has addicted us all to the bubbly |
| 04:57.18 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Please consider reading http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/magazine/17charity.t.html |
| 04:57.21 | rooly | besides, it's not companies that are simply protecting themselves that i blame |
| 04:57.33 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: It's by one of the foremost modern philosophers, and it directly addresses this exact question. |
| 04:58.11 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Because if everyone weighed their own needs against the needs of everyone else, no one would survive very long. |
| 04:58.18 | FxChiP_ | Honestly? Who justifies drinking Coke? |
| 04:58.25 | FxChiP_ | Just drink the stuff, it's good for you. |
| 04:58.31 | FxChiP_ | :D |
| 04:58.32 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: It's a moral imperative to be at least somewhat selfish and self-serving. |
| 04:58.37 | rwhitby | We should all run windows, so Gates can give more to charity .. |
| 04:58.38 | rooly | it's companies like ibm who hypocritically get software patents and then say they are pushing for reform. it's companies like microsoft and apple and adobe who get software patents on the most obvious of things...like a touch screen on a phone, as opposed to just a touchscreen display on an electronic device |
| 04:58.43 | FxChiP_ | At its core, that's wrong too. |
| 04:58.57 | parodyoflanguage | rwhitby: hahah, or at least give more money to the Gates Foundation :) |
| 04:59.09 | FxChiP_ | rooly, IBM get 'em to CTA. |
| 04:59.16 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Sure. So the article argues that we should wade in and save a drowning child even if it ruins our shoes. |
| 04:59.22 | cjb | Because our shoes aren't important enough to stop us. |
| 04:59.29 | rooly | i'd just prefer if my isp would up my internet dosage |
| 04:59.36 | cjb | Now, it gets to the meaty part. |
| 05:00.00 | cjb | Which is that, if we're willing to do that, whey don't we skip buying the expensive shoes and instead contribute to a health program in the developing world that has a good chance of saving a child's life? |
| 05:00.21 | cjb | Of course, we shouldn't do it if it does us harm. |
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| 05:00.35 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Well, I don't buy expensive shoes :) |
| 05:00.41 | cjb | Sure. |
| 05:01.23 | rooly | who buys shoes |
| 05:01.27 | cjb | But we could talk about salary instead. Let's say we make 3* the national average. There are clearly lots of people who earn that amount and aren't dying of hunger. What excuse do we have not to spend a large proportion of salaries, but not enough to make us poor, on helping people not to die? |
| 05:01.39 | FxChiP_ | Ahhh |
| 05:01.40 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: The point is that when we weigh our ethical decisions, we have to give our own selves undue weight simply by virtue of being that person. It's reasonable according to the categorical imperative. |
| 05:01.43 | FxChiP_ | Wait a second |
| 05:01.50 | FxChiP_ | <cjb> Which is that, if we're willing to do that, whey don't we skip buying the expensive shoes and instead contribute to a health program in the developing world that has a good chance of saving a child's life? |
| 05:01.58 | FxChiP_ | ^ Easy -- because you cannot guarantee that health program is actually doing something |
| 05:02.01 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I absolutely agree. I think you're misrepresenting the level of weight we have to give. |
| 05:02.20 | FxChiP_ | You have no way of truly knowing if the health program is run by corrupt people or on the level |
| 05:02.25 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: As the ruining-shoes analogy shows. You can't say "well, it would ruin my shoes, and that would break the categorical imperative" and be freed from your ethical burden of rescuing the drowning kid. |
| 05:02.37 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: So, you're trying to make a hard rule inappropriately. Yes, we shouldn't kill ourselves in the process. |
| 05:02.45 | cjb | But we should do it even if it inconveniences us. |
| 05:02.48 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Well, it sounds like you're interested in sacrificing too much of yourself, which is something that scares me a little. Too often it corresponds with a lack of self-respect. |
| 05:02.52 | cjb | FxChiP_: hence "that has a good chance". |
| 05:02.54 | FxChiP_ | If you contribute your money, you might be contributing to greed and detriment, which should be avoided |
| 05:03.29 | cjb | FxChiP_: so, choose a program that doesn't have those flaws, like malaria treatments or something. |
| 05:03.42 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: And that's ultimately where the ethics leads to. You need to do whatever you need to maintain a high character and spirit. If you don't have that, you *can't* help other people, or you'll do it wrong. |
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| 05:04.04 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I agree with everything you're saying, except the sudden jump from "slight inconvenience" to "sacrificing yourself". |
| 05:04.31 | cjb | I mean, dude. I make tens of thousands of dollars a year and you're talking about *me* sacrificing myself to help someone who makes $100/year? |
| 05:04.34 | cjb | That's messed up. |
| 05:05.02 | cjb | Minor attempts at wealth redistribution aren't sacrifice, and they'd solve poverty if enough people did them. |
| 05:05.03 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: You said that we're obligated to donate to charity. That's a self-sacrifice, believe it or not. No slight inconveniance (unless money is no object). |
| 05:05.09 | cjb | (Which is also what the article argues.) |
| 05:05.19 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I thoroughly disagree. |
| 05:05.46 | cjb | If I can give away a thousand dollars without losing my wife, my apartment, enough food, even money to buy shiny toys -- what have I sacrificed that was worth letting someone else die? |
| 05:06.03 | FxChiP | Who CAN, though? |
| 05:06.26 | cjb | um, I gave more than a thousand dollars to charity last year. |
| 05:06.31 | cjb | most Americans did, as I understand it. |
| 05:06.41 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Divide $1000 by your hourly wage. That is how many hours you've sacrificed to your employer that you wouldn't have to otherwise. |
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| 05:07.19 | rooly | i gave jack squat to charity |
| 05:07.46 | rooly | unless you count medicaid/medicare |
| 05:07.51 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Oh. You're assuming I have a shitty job. |
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| 05:08.21 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/content.view/cpid/736/print/1.htm # "the average American household contributes more than $1,000 annually" |
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| 05:08.43 | cjb | so, something is wrong with your argument. I get paid 3* more than the average American household, and they donate the amount you're saying is a huge sacrifice to me. |
| 05:08.45 | cjb | What's up with that? |
| 05:08.46 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: What does the average American household have to do with this argument? |
| 05:09.19 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I have a rewarding job that is basically what I would want to do even if not paid for it. It has flexible hours and is not physically demanding. |
| 05:09.45 | cjb | The average American has a far less well-paid job, which is presumably less flexible. |
| 05:10.00 | cjb | They should not be donating more to charity than you're saying it is "sacrificial" for me to. But they do. |
| 05:10.00 | cjb | Why? |
| 05:10.05 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: It should have been obvious that the more money you make, the less sacrifice $1,000 would mean for you. |
| 05:10.39 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: You're the one arguing that it's a huge and irrational sacrifice. |
| 05:10.51 | cjb | I thought it would help you to see that people far less off than me have no trouble making it. |
| 05:10.57 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: No, I said "sacrifice". |
| 05:11.17 | cjb | "no slight inconvenience" |
| 05:11.27 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Right. |
| 05:11.48 | cjb | and all that self-sacrificial esteem stuff. I just want to make it clear that you're arguing that the average American makes many times my "no slight inconvenience". |
| 05:11.57 | cjb | And you aren't giving me a good reason why they do. |
| 05:11.58 | parodyoflanguage | It *is* a sacrifice, there's no doubt about it. You're making it out as if it's on par with getting your shoes wet. |
| 05:12.06 | cjb | Why they would "break the categorical imperative" like this. |
| 05:12.34 | cjb | It's true, I'm arguing by analogy. |
| 05:12.42 | cjb | I think everyone would agree that ruining your shoes is worth saving a life. |
| 05:12.44 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Most people have never heard of the categorical imperative. |
| 05:12.52 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Of course. |
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| 05:13.18 | cjb | So, I think that doing a little more than ruining your shoes is worth saving a life, especially if it doesn't actually change the way you live at all. |
| 05:13.47 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: It probably is. |
| 05:13.53 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: But it's not obligatory. |
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| 05:14.08 | cjb | So, I think it is somewhat obligatory. (As the article goes on to argue..) |
| 05:14.09 | parodyoflanguage | There's a difference. If you believe in charity, then do it. It's good to do. |
| 05:14.12 | cjb | We didn't push anyone into a lake |
| 05:14.24 | parodyoflanguage | But I don't think it's forbidden *not* to give to charity. |
| 05:14.24 | cjb | but we did become affluent at the expense of people who became poor. |
| 05:14.50 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: And I would argue that it's not forbidden, but it is unethical. Someone could argue with me; maybe they have different ethics. |
| 05:15.24 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: forbidden = unethical. Look up deontological logic. |
| 05:16.11 | parodyoflanguage | X is obligatory = not doing X isn't forbidden |
| 05:16.23 | parodyoflanguage | X is forbidden = not doing X isn't obligatory |
| 05:16.24 | cjb | X is ethically obligatory. |
| 05:16.44 | cjb | So, not doing X is ethically forbidden. I'm okay with that. "forbidden" has other consequences when you don't qualify it. |
| 05:16.48 | rooly | you guys do X too? |
| 05:16.49 | rooly | neat |
| 05:16.51 | cjb | Such as "we should stop people from not doing X". |
| 05:17.16 | cjb | I won't argue that people should be legally obligated to give to charity. |
| 05:17.25 | ljp | agreed. X is worthless |
| 05:17.37 | cjb | Y is where it's at. |
| 05:17.39 | ljp | stop people using X! |
| 05:17.43 | rooly | lol |
| 05:17.51 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Well, in the sense of ethically obligatory. Analysis of legal rights requires a different framework. |
| 05:17.58 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: yup. |
| 05:18.08 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: anyway, I really do recommended the Singer article. |
| 05:18.25 | parodyoflanguage | Ah, Peter Singer. The animal rights guy :) |
| 05:18.30 | cjb | yeah :) |
| 05:18.41 | cjb | he was especially animal rights-ish in the 70s |
| 05:18.45 | cjb | he's more about anti-poverty lately. |
| 05:18.51 | rooly | okay, another topic hijack |
| 05:19.01 | rooly | aren't articles usually made by writers? |
| 05:19.04 | cjb | rooly: I think we can just agree that if someone wants to talk about OM, they should go to -cdevel :) |
| 05:19.11 | cjb | rooly: I don't understand. |
| 05:19.16 | rooly | singer = songs |
| 05:19.20 | cjb | ah :) |
| 05:19.29 | rooly | it was my personal conversation hijack |
| 05:19.34 | cjb | cunning. |
| 05:19.51 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: And, there's a problem with the idea of wealth distribution that you may not be aware of. |
| 05:19.53 | rooly | and of all people to tell me that... |
| 05:20.04 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Go on? |
| 05:20.09 | parodyoflanguage | It's more than just defeating poverty. You cant have the good without the bad. |
| 05:20.34 | cjb | Sorry, having trouble following. |
| 05:20.40 | cjb | What is the bad, in this case? |
| 05:20.46 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Well, first there's an axiom that you'd need to accept to agree with the validity of my argument. |
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| 05:21.11 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Basically that, at least it ought to be the case, that responsibility should equal authority. |
| 05:21.21 | cjb | By the way, the article describes a way in which Americans could solve poverty without affecting their standard of life much, with a tiered tax that takes very little from poor people, and as much as 50% from rich people. |
| 05:21.34 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I don't think I'm going to like that axiom. :) |
| 05:21.41 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: But I'd like to hear your conclusion anyway. |
| 05:21.46 | parodyoflanguage | So, you shouldn't be responsible for something that you don't have the power to change; nor should have the power to change things that someone else is responsible for. |
| 05:21.56 | johnsu01 | top tax rate under Johnson was 91% |
| 05:22.07 | johnsu01 | now it's what, 45? |
| 05:22.08 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Yes, I find your axiom thoroughly offensive. |
| 05:22.22 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: What's wrong with it? |
| 05:22.51 | cjb | It's a ridiculous cop-out. It corresponds to watching the children in the lake die because there was supposed to be a lifeguard. |
| 05:22.55 | cjb | Even though the lifeguard is not at work right now. |
| 05:23.47 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: No, that's not what I mean. |
| 05:23.54 | cjb | Ah. I believe that is what you said. |
| 05:24.14 | cjb | The lifeguard is responsible for saving the children. I am not the lifeguard. Am I allowed to save the children? |
| 05:24.31 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: If someone else has to save the child because of the lifeguard's neglect, then the lifeguard is still accountable even if the child ends up alright. |
| 05:24.44 | cjb | What if the child doesn't end up alright? |
| 05:24.50 | cjb | Is the someone else at fault for their death, or not? |
| 05:24.56 | parodyoflanguage | Then the lifeguard is still accountable. |
| 05:25.22 | cjb | Well, okay, but to escape the analogy, the state -- or whoever we agree is responsibile for aiding poverty -- has been accountable for a long time. |
| 05:25.27 | cjb | And a lot of children have drowned. |
| 05:25.45 | cjb | And I'm still sitting by the lake. I think your claim that I have an ethical out from saving them is ridiculous and semantic. |
| 05:26.10 | cjb | I think part of the problem with the axiom is that we probably can't agree on who is responsible for ending poverty. |
| 05:26.26 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: You're jumping to conclusions. My axiom doesn't prescribe any particular set of obligations. |
| 05:26.26 | cjb | My intuition is "we all are", but that's because I'm not holding my breath for some other entity to be. |
| 05:26.42 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Okay. I'll stop typing for a while while you explain, if that's okay. |
| 05:27.18 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: If you believe that everyone is responsible for saving the child, then the axiom doesn't negate that; it would just add that therefore everyone ought to have the authority to save the child. |
| 05:27.53 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Ah. |
| 05:27.57 | cjb | Thanks. |
| 05:28.15 | cjb | Why would I *not* make everyone responsible for minimizing suffering? |
| 05:28.31 | cjb | It seems like my only reason for doing so would be to free myself from the blame when it doesn't happen, or the responsibility to make it happen. |
| 05:28.34 | parodyoflanguage | I think in the case of the lifeguard it is generally agreed that the lifeguard has both the responsibility and the authority, because if we hold everyone responsible the child might die just from too many people trying to help. |
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| 05:29.15 | cjb | But now you're arguing that if you were at a lake and there wasn't a lifeguard and a child was drowning, you wouldn't save them. |
| 05:29.31 | cjb | Because you didn't have the authority. I don't think anyone actually believes that. |
| 05:30.02 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Well, responsibility is really an organizing principle in society. If everyone is responsible for everyone, it wouldn't be practical. Just like parents are responsible for their children and not strangers. |
| 05:30.03 | cjb | (By the way, I'm quite enjoying the discussion, even though I think we're going to continue to disagree about responsibility.) |
| 05:30.28 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Then why save a stranger's drowning child? |
| 05:31.02 | cjb | All your arguments seem to be pointing that people should give nothing to charity and should not help other people when it isn't too inconvenient to do so. Yet people do do these things. |
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| 05:31.25 | cjb | (hrr, sentences get less coherent as time gets later.) |
| 05:31.43 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: I've said, repeatedly, that donating to charity is good to do. I've never backed away from that. |
| 05:31.59 | cjb | Sorry, that people aren't ethically responsible for donating to charity. |
| 05:32.15 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: My problem is that your arguments go too far. You consider everyone responsible for the happiness of everyone, and don't find that the least bit self sacrificial. |
| 05:32.43 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: But the interesting point Singer makes is that we could cure poverty without actually sacrificing anyone. |
| 05:33.05 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: But let me finish my argument anyway, just so you see how it ends up. |
| 05:33.13 | cjb | Okay. |
| 05:33.53 | parodyoflanguage | The problem is that, when you hold people responsible for the well-being of the poor, that implies an authority over the poor. |
| 05:33.53 | cjb | (I think your argument is flawed because it fails to consider what would happen if *many* people acted as I wish to, none of us sacrificing more than a modicum of convenience.) |
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| 05:34.37 | cjb | I think you are using "authority over" in an emotionally-loaded way that I disagree with, but I agree that it implies care in how the poor live. |
| 05:35.04 | cjb | (It doesn't imply that we get to make the poor do whatever we want them to, for example.) |
| 05:35.28 | parodyoflanguage | It's just like any situation when you hold yourself responsible to the well being of others. Either (a) You're going to fail in your responsibility at the whim of those who you are responsibel for, or (b) you'll manage a level of control over the people you're responsible for. |
| 05:35.52 | cjb | You've mostly lost me, sorry. |
| 05:36.11 | cjb | Yes, when I raise money for malaria vaccines, I have a level of control over the people getting them, in that they're getting something I paid for. |
| 05:36.24 | cjb | But it seems like you're trying to equate this with me owning them, which I find mystifying. |
| 05:36.54 | cjb | Or for a better example, when I donate to Kiva (which is a microfinance bank) and it lends money to startup businesses, you're implying I have an authority over the recipient. |
| 05:36.54 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Okay, look at it this way. Lets say you donate to a homeless person and he uses the money to buy cigarettes. Or you donate money to a poor person and he uses it at the casino. |
| 05:37.22 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Just to avoid you jumping to conclusions again, I'm *not* trying to stereotype people who need help. Please look at the substance of what I wrote. |
| 05:37.33 | cjb | But your examples aren't like the examples I'm talking about at all. Of course my idea for curing poverty wouldn't involve giving some people lots of money. |
| 05:37.40 | cjb | They'd involve tackling what actually causes poverty. |
| 05:38.00 | rooly | greed and the human condition? |
| 05:38.14 | cjb | rooly: perhaps |
| 05:38.17 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Well, I'm solidly in the teaching people how to fish camp. If they don't fish, that's the limit of my responsibility. |
| 05:38.30 | rooly | is with parodyoflanguage here |
| 05:38.33 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Sure. I like that camp, and have no desire to force people to fish. |
| 05:38.36 | cjb | (Fishing is boring.) |
| 05:38.59 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Except you're measuring your responsibility on how many fish people have. |
| 05:39.21 | rooly | cjb, it's more that me and he...we...do feel obliged to help, but only once |
| 05:39.21 | cjb | Poverty's a little more complicated than that, but I would agree with not letting people die of hunger. |
| 05:39.33 | cjb | (People don't die of hunger in the US, so this is not a crazy viewpoint.) |
| 05:40.01 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Even if they refuse to eat? |
| 05:40.04 | cjb | (at least, they don't die of hunger for want of food. they might starve themselves to death to make a point, I guess.) |
| 05:40.14 | parodyoflanguage | Right. |
| 05:40.37 | parodyoflanguage | So I look at society more as an infrastructure. |
| 05:40.52 | cjb | If I tried to help everyone get enough fish, and some people refused to get fish and died, I would consider that to have passed my level of responsibility. |
| 05:40.53 | rooly | oh just shutup and eat a popsicle! |
| 05:40.58 | parodyoflanguage | Do we have the proper institutions in place so people satisfy their own needs and wants? |
| 05:41.17 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: So, this is a very common disagreement about societies. |
| 05:41.20 | parodyoflanguage | I think we do have a responsibility for setting up and ensuring the proper operation of the infrastructure. |
| 05:41.40 | cjb | America, if you listen to Obama, is moving from a society where we care about ourselves to a society where we care about everyone. |
| 05:41.43 | rooly | screw you guys, i'm gonna go download my updates |
| 05:41.53 | cjb | Those are probably mostly just nice words, I can't say for sure. |
| 05:42.00 | parodyoflanguage | rooly: Sorry :) |
| 05:42.08 | rooly | heheh |
| 05:42.13 | rooly | nn |
| 05:42.14 | cjb | But there are certainly countries -- mainly European ones -- where individual autonomy is not the highest peak of societal success. |
| 05:42.17 | cjb | g'night |
| 05:42.33 | cjb | Individual autonomy is easy. Getting society right is hard. |
| 05:43.28 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Eh, the country is full of hypocrits. When things are good, the country backs the lift yourself up by your bootstraps mentality. When things are hard, people become very socialist and want the government to aid everyone. |
| 05:44.00 | cjb | Depends on the country. :) |
| 05:44.35 | parodyoflanguage | Well, I'm not idolizing individual autonomy. Politically I'm actually pretty moderate. |
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| 05:45.00 | cjb | I guess I am too, in that I'm not proposing 90% or 100% taxes. |
| 05:45.13 | parodyoflanguage | Saying everyone is responsible for everyone is extreme; but so is also saying that everyone is only responsible for themselves. |
| 05:45.18 | cjb | There are some countries that do -- like johnsu01 said about Johnson. |
| 05:45.51 | cjb | So, I don't think it's that extreme. I can know that I have a stake in everyone's suffering without selling all my worldly possessions to fix it. |
| 05:45.51 | parodyoflanguage | It's not binary. I think we have various grades of responsibility for different levels of social groups. |
| 05:46.21 | parodyoflanguage | I'm most responsible to myself and my family; then, my neighborhood and city; then state and country; and lastly the world. |
| 05:46.24 | cjb | How do you assign them? |
| 05:46.34 | cjb | So, you're most responsible for the people who least need your help. |
| 05:46.46 | cjb | (And to return to the analogy; the other people at the side of the lake who aren't drowning.) |
| 05:47.05 | cjb | I guess I'm pretty utiliatarian. |
| 05:47.18 | rwhitby | can you send me some cash? |
| 05:47.22 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Actually, they most need my help. Because I am there, they are less in *need* of help. |
| 05:47.26 | cjb | rwhitby: Depends. How much do you need it? |
| 05:47.32 | johnsu01 | cjb: err, sorry, that was Eisenhower :) |
| 05:47.34 | rwhitby | I need a new FreeRunner ... |
| 05:47.37 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Are they in danger of starving of death? |
| 05:47.45 | cjb | johnsu01: :) |
| 05:47.57 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: The problems in society are the people who don't have people who are there for them. People alone, without families, or outcasts in the society they live in. |
| 05:47.58 | cjb | rwhitby: Sorry, people drowning over here. Ask me again once I've cured poverty, though :) |
| 05:48.21 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: How come everything is about starving to death with you? |
| 05:48.36 | cjb | It's hard to argue without examples. |
| 05:48.57 | ljp | eats some 'za |
| 05:48.59 | cjb | I can easily change it to "Sorry, a million people going to die from malaria this year" |
| 05:49.25 | cjb | or "Sorry, we need to work on getting HIV antivirals out there to avoid a global pandemic" |
| 05:49.26 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: If my dad was by himself, he would probably starve to death, of depression if not anything else. Same with most of the people we know. Being a social creature is about more than having something trying to save you from starving you know :) |
| 05:49.39 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: No, you're not arguing honestly. |
| 05:49.55 | cjb | If you weren't there, someone else would look after your dad, including the local hospital. |
| 05:50.31 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: What about the people who that someone else is now looking after? |
| 05:50.34 | cjb | Our country has a safety net. |
| 05:50.50 | rwhitby | who's country? |
| 05:51.01 | parodyoflanguage | I think cjb and I are Americans. |
| 05:51.10 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: They should probably be looked after. But there are fewer of them in a country with many safety nets than in one with no safety nets. |
| 05:51.13 | rwhitby | ah, *that* country ;-) |
| 05:51.15 | cjb | I'm a Brit living in the US. |
| 05:52.34 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: My second job is a caregiver looking after a fourth stage Altzeimer's(sp) patient. I'm dedicated to that client even though I don't need it for the money, but it's not because I'm afraid of him starving to death. |
| 05:52.47 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I understand. |
| 05:52.51 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: But that's part of my responsibility to my community, in my opinion. |
| 05:52.57 | raster | aaah word |
| 05:53.00 | *** join/#openmoko Zoup (n=Zoup@78.110.121.1) |
| 05:53.03 | raster | now this little thing flips sooo nicely |
| 05:53.06 | cjb | It sounds like you feel a lot of responsibility to people near you. |
| 05:53.10 | cjb | That's reasonable -- it's often easier to help them. |
| 05:53.18 | Zoup | Mots of times my FR does not wakeup from suspends , any idea ? |
| 05:53.20 | cjb | But they often aren't the people who need the most help, or would benefit the most. |
| 05:53.28 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Right. It's also a logical system and it works. |
| 05:53.48 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: But, they are the people who you can be the most help to. |
| 05:53.51 | cjb | So I tend to aim to help more people than just the few in my community (Boston) who need it. They do need help, but often to a less fundamental degree. |
| 05:54.00 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: So, I'm going to go ahead and argue that that's not true. |
| 05:54.21 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: I don't know about that, there's a *lot* of people in Boston. Far more than in my dinky city. |
| 05:54.23 | cjb | I can save lives by buying malaria nets. Thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of lives. |
| 05:54.31 | cjb | How many Boston lives can I save for the same money? |
| 05:54.40 | cjb | is going to go ahead and guess.. ten. |
| 05:54.48 | cjb | I think you are not treating human life equally. |
| 05:55.09 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: And I think you're measuring a life by their ability to biologically function. |
| 05:55.24 | parodyoflanguage | Man can't live on bread alone. |
| 05:55.53 | SpeedEvil | par: yeah. It's gotta be soggy bread, otherwise they might be thirsty. |
| 05:55.53 | cjb | That argument doesn't make sense to me. |
| 05:56.05 | parodyoflanguage | SpeedEvil: heh |
| 05:56.14 | cjb | If people are dying from easily curable disases, then they need protection from easily curable diseases. They don't need hugs as much. |
| 05:56.27 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Okay, let me ask you something. What's the worse part of being homeless, in your opinion? |
| 05:56.33 | cjb | If they aren't in danger of dying from easily curable diseases, then sure, bring on the hugs. |
| 05:57.23 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: That sounds like an appeal to emotion. Regardless, I'm sure the answer is isolation from society. |
| 05:57.45 | cjb | I'm not arguing against fixing isolation from society. I'm arguing against curing the pneumonia that you're dying from before I fix your isolation from society. |
| 05:57.56 | parodyoflanguage | As if it was as easy as giving people hugs. It means building a relationship and being there for people when they need it. *That's* what people need most. If they don't get that, they'd probably one of the ones who would rather starve than accept your food. |
| 05:57.57 | cjb | Because it doesn't work the other way around. |
| 05:57.59 | SpeedEvil | parodyoflanguage: it depends on the climate. |
| 05:58.06 | cjb | SpeedEvil: *wince* |
| 05:58.09 | SpeedEvil | parodyoflanguage: in some, dying of cold in 20 mins. |
| 05:58.19 | parodyoflanguage | SpeedEvil: true |
| 05:58.57 | SpeedEvil | parodyoflanguage: in others, not having a place to store your stuff while you live on the beach and pick fruit from nearby trees. |
| 05:59.23 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I think we should be able to agree that if people are about to die, then working on their integration with society is not the most helpful thing I can do. So I'm arguing fixing the basics first. |
| 05:59.47 | *** join/#openmoko Shlee (n=MrShlee@219-90-186-53.ip.adam.com.au) |
| 06:00.07 | Shlee | Anyone running Qtopia? Id like to confirm a bug before I post it. |
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| 06:00.24 | parodyoflanguage | But, actually, I've thought about this one day and realized that there are people who live *purposefully* on the streets, and some of them are happy. The problem with homelessness isn't really the lack of shelter (which is really salting the wound that's already there), but the helplessness. Of not being able to acquire shelter when wanted/needed. |
| 06:01.11 | ljp | Shlee: yes |
| 06:01.26 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Again, you're only thinking about people who are about to die. |
| 06:02.29 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: That, apparently, is the entire basis for your will to charity and income redistribution: to prevent people from dieing, even though they're all going to kick it anyway. |
| 06:03.37 | parodyoflanguage | Integration in society, building relationships, those *are* the fundamentals. Most of the problems you can think of are a result of a lack on this dimension. |
| 06:03.41 | kelvie | what's the name of the kernel package in opkg? |
| 06:03.50 | kelvie | i.e. how do I do a kernel upgrade without having to flash it |
| 06:03.59 | kelvie | (or is that not possible) |
| 06:04.17 | rwhitby | kelvie: depends if your kernel is read from flash on boot or not |
| 06:04.28 | kelvie | rwhitby: it is.. I guess there's no way to do that online? |
| 06:04.31 | rwhitby | (i.e. you may be booting the kernel directly from SD card) |
| 06:05.01 | rwhitby | when you opkg upgrade linux-openmoko, it flashes the kernel partition in nand |
| 06:05.08 | kelvie | ah, alright, thanks |
| 06:05.41 | *** part/#openmoko Zoup (n=Zoup@78.110.121.1) |
| 06:05.45 | kelvie | also.. why isn't there an eclass in our openembedded fork for building against qtopia-phone-x11 ? |
| 06:05.54 | parodyoflanguage | But, let me find out about malaria nets :) |
| 06:06.02 | rwhitby | kelvie: what's an "eclass" ? |
| 06:06.22 | kelvie | rwhitby: they're basically include files that .bb files inherit |
| 06:06.44 | kelvie | that set up a few of the relevant build steps, i.e. if you want to build a gtk program, you'd inherit the "gtk" eclass |
| 06:06.46 | rwhitby | ? I've only seen .class and .bbclass, not "eclass" |
| 06:06.48 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Do you recommend this site? http://www.nothingbutnets.net/ |
| 06:06.59 | kelvie | rwhitby: oh yeah those |
| 06:07.01 | kelvie | bbclass I think |
| 06:07.21 | rwhitby | ok, I dunno - you'd need to ask XorA|gone |
| 06:07.32 | kelvie | hrm.. it looks like he's gone :P |
| 06:07.41 | cjb | hey, sorry for disappearing. |
| 06:07.45 | cjb | bedtime :) |
| 06:07.47 | parodyoflanguage | np |
| 06:07.56 | SpeedEvil | cjb: goodnight. |
| 06:08.03 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Thanks for the discourse. Night :) |
| 06:08.06 | kelvie | I just want to get some python bindings against the qtopia that is on the phone |
| 06:08.13 | rwhitby | cjb: don't forget that FreeRunner you promised me ... |
| 06:08.20 | parodyoflanguage | lol |
| 06:08.22 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I haven't heard of it before, unfortunately. Charitynavigator has a nice breakdown on how efficient/well rated US charities are. |
| 06:08.27 | kelvie | right now, python-pyqt requires qt4-x11-free |
| 06:08.48 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: I'll check it out. I do believe in *some* responsibility for the world. |
| 06:08.48 | kelvie | an to actually run it, I have to make sure it doesn't link to the one in /opt/ |
| 06:09.13 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I'll think about your arguments, the last points made sense. I do want to minimize suffering of all forms, and not just death for the sake of it. |
| 06:09.23 | SpeedEvil | And is that a horrible thing to rate. |
| 06:09.41 | cjb | (food-wise, I'm a vegetarian who is fine with killing animals, but wants them to not have suffered before/while they die.) |
| 06:10.03 | rwhitby | I pity those plants that suffer ... |
| 06:10.14 | SpeedEvil | A charity passing out food with an efficiency of 95% of money hitting the soup kitchens, vs a charity that makes people not homeless with a efficiency of 50% |
| 06:10.22 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: I think the thing is not to minimize suffering for it's own sake. To build a relationship with someone you have enjoy being with them, even if they have disparate interests, etc. |
| 06:10.44 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: I'm in favor of charity, but there's something with charity out of guilt. It needs to be a positive activity. |
| 06:11.08 | cjb | SpeedEvil: Good point. |
| 06:11.18 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: That's my main objection to the idea that charity is obligatory. Then you only do it to avoid doing something wrong. |
| 06:11.37 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I agree that guilt should be minimized. I don't think of myself as a guilty person. |
| 06:11.46 | cjb | But I don't think reflection and self-criticism should be minimized. |
| 06:11.53 | parodyoflanguage | SpeedEvil: Yeah. |
| 06:11.53 | cjb | (I mean criticism in the constructive sense.) |
| 06:12.04 | rwhitby | I'm guilty of helping start this off-topic conversation ... |
| 06:12.17 | parodyoflanguage | points at rwhitby. |
| 06:12.52 | SpeedEvil | It's relevant even to OM - refactored a bit. |
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| 06:13.02 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: The most difficult thing is doing something positive without causing a negative. |
| 06:13.19 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: I think anyone who thinks that gives them an excuse to do nothing is fooling themselves. |
| 06:13.25 | SpeedEvil | Do you spend time on fixing the bugs in the clock, or do you write how-tos on the wiki that help others get into dev. |
| 06:13.27 | parodyoflanguage | The world is a lot like the Tao says: it's hard to act without your action being undone. |
| 06:13.41 | cjb | It just means that we have to pay extra attention to what we try to do that's positive. |
| 06:13.44 | SpeedEvil | runs around smashing stuff. |
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| 06:13.59 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: I'm not talking about excuses. |
| 06:14.14 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: Ah. It sounded a little like one. |
| 06:14.29 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: But usually it means that it's not *what* you do, or your intent is, but *how* you do it, that ultimately matters. |
| 06:14.30 | cjb | I know that charity is hard; that's why I spend a long time researching it before trying it. |
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| 06:14.50 | cjb | Even more controversially, I work for One Laptop per Child, who are often criticized for giving laptops in place of food. |
| 06:15.27 | rwhitby | yeah, you should give fries with them |
| 06:15.37 | cjb | One Fry per Child? |
| 06:15.45 | cjb | it would certainly be cheaper than the laptops. |
| 06:15.48 | SpeedEvil | In principle, with net-conectivity, they can earn money with that laptop. |
| 06:16.01 | rwhitby | captcha farmers ? |
| 06:16.03 | SpeedEvil | But I understand that's largely discouraged. |
| 06:16.03 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Well, it's good that you have some understanding of economics. Charity and economics are intimately related. Understanding things like opportunity cost needs to be applied to charity as well. |
| 06:16.14 | SpeedEvil | rwhitby: or spam filters |
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| 06:16.39 | parodyoflanguage | And marginal utility. |
| 06:17.26 | cjb | yup. |
| 06:17.37 | parodyoflanguage | That's another thing. Lets say a company wants to move into some developing nation and hire their workers, thereby indirectly feeding and housing those people. |
| 06:17.51 | parodyoflanguage | On the face of it, that looks like a good thing, right? |
| 06:18.05 | rwhitby | depends on the work |
| 06:18.18 | parodyoflanguage | But, effectively, those foreign companies could end up taking control of those people, making the people dependent on them. |
| 06:18.36 | parodyoflanguage | This, as I understand it, has already happened with fruit companies in Honduras which are US owned. |
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| 06:18.38 | harnir | hello |
| 06:18.57 | cjb | .. or let's say that we want to maintain barriers against agricultural imports from their country. Oh wait, we already do. |
| 06:19.10 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: Right. |
| 06:19.41 | parodyoflanguage | All the economists say that protectionism is bad, yet it is also wildly popular with most people (in the US, anyway). |
| 06:20.09 | edistar | parodyoflanguage: what makes you think they want to do what's good for most people? |
| 06:20.18 | rwhitby | it's just a scale-up of the individual benefit vs society benefit to the world-wide society ... |
| 06:20.26 | parodyoflanguage | edistar: Who? Economists? |
| 06:20.38 | edistar | parodyoflanguage: jo |
| 06:20.48 | edistar | well, g2g |
| 06:20.49 | edistar | cu |
| 06:20.49 | cjb | parodyoflanguage: because most people follow your mantra of helping the people next to them :) |
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| 06:21.40 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: True. |
| 06:21.46 | SpeedEvil | Feeding and housing people that the state is (attempting to) feed and house relieves the state of that burden, and allows it to concentrate on the betterment of the rest (in the presence of a functioning state) |
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| 06:22.05 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: But, that actually gets onto a different topic: nationalism vs cosmopolitanism. |
| 06:22.33 | parodyoflanguage | cjb: It's more complex than typically people make out. |
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| 06:23.59 | parodyoflanguage | SpeedEvil: Even with the qualification, that sounds idealistic. |
| 06:24.05 | cjb | I hope to learn about some time, but after I sleep :) |
| 06:24.07 | cjb | 'night all |
| 06:24.13 | parodyoflanguage | Night cjb |
| 06:24.22 | SpeedEvil | parodyoflanguage: of course it is. |
| 06:25.03 | SpeedEvil | parodyoflanguage: If the state does not have excess labour in the labour classes you're using, or the non-state organisations active in the area don't, then you are starving them of labour. |
| 06:25.22 | parodyoflanguage | Well, I'm trying to think. The assumption is that the state (or a functioning state) should act in the best interest of the people. |
| 06:25.43 | SpeedEvil | You may also be destroying the economy of the local bannana growers with your huge bannana farm. |
| 06:26.08 | parodyoflanguage | Even in the best case, it assumes two other things: that the state knows what's in the best interest of the people, and that the state *can* act in the best interest of the people. |
| 06:26.26 | SpeedEvil | I'm assuming that the state, or charitable institiutions, or something, or lots of little ad-hoc groups, or capitalism is functioning in the economy to aid people. |
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| 06:26.55 | parodyoflanguage | SpeedEvil: Yeah. Economics makes things so intractable. |
| 06:27.42 | parodyoflanguage | It's chaos theory. Switching from one brand of milk to another at the grocery store may result in the starvation of an entire African city. |
| 06:27.48 | SpeedEvil | (I'm assuming that capitalism, private ownership of propert are good things of course) |
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| 06:28.19 | SpeedEvil | (A well functioning command economy can be more efficient, but it's damn hard for it to be) |
| 06:28.23 | parodyoflanguage | SpeedEvil: Honestly, I find speaking of capitalism/socialism not very useful for actual thinking on these matters. They're little more than ideologies at this point. |
| 06:28.24 | doc|home | <parodyoflanguage> Well, I'm trying to think. The assumption is that the state (or a functioning state) should act in the best interest of the people. |
| 06:28.26 | doc|home | bwahahaha |
| 06:28.29 | doc|home | yeah, righyt |
| 06:29.12 | harnir | doc|home: in ideal world that would be true. Frankly, we don't live in the ideal world... |
| 06:29.13 | doc|home | parodyoflanguage: there's a reason socialist countries fail, markets are what determine the best way to spend money. If the government (politicians) control the mans of manufacturing they screw everything up. |
| 06:29.16 | parodyoflanguage | For example, private ownership != capitalism. |
| 06:29.18 | doc|home | harnir: exactly |
| 06:29.29 | doc|home | parodyoflanguage: private ownership is necessary for capitalism |
| 06:29.36 | doc|home | otherwise there's no incentive to invest |
| 06:29.40 | harnir | many from USA around here? |
| 06:29.43 | parodyoflanguage | Today most corporations are owned by shareholders. |
| 06:29.52 | doc|home | parodyoflanguage: sure, who own shares/stock |
| 06:30.09 | doc|home | parodyoflanguage: that is still private ownership |
| 06:30.30 | parodyoflanguage | doc|home: No individual owns the company. And the people who own the company don't control the company. |
| 06:30.42 | SpeedEvil | Consider Zimbabwe for the ultimate attempt at broken state control. |
| 06:30.46 | parodyoflanguage | So, you know, calling this system capitalism doesn't seem all that useful to me. |
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| 06:31.14 | doc|home | parodyoflanguage: no individual need own the company, many individuals can, it's still capitalism |
| 06:31.51 | parodyoflanguage | And the main problem is that all this attention is made to whatever criteria makes the system capitalist (which few people can even define), and no attention is made to the other properties of the current system that are actually more important for our well-being and prosperity. |
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| 06:32.42 | doc|home | SpeedEvil: the soviet union was even better. They set quotas in tonnage for production, which meant that nail companies for example made the biggest nails they could (more efficient for them) but that meant there was a shortage of small nails to make roofs. Lead to a large number of houses being built, all lacking roofs. |
| 06:33.02 | doc|home | in a free market there would have been an obvious demand for small roofing nails |
| 06:33.10 | doc|home | given the price would go up when a shortage occured |
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| 06:34.03 | doc|home | parodyoflanguage: all of it, anything that diverts from a free market, including regulation, is equivalent to a spanner in the works. |
| 06:34.33 | parodyoflanguage | spanner? |
| 06:34.34 | arquebus | doc|home: something tells me youve read Thomos Sowells book on economics |
| 06:34.40 | aum | depends on what you value most - individual or corporation |
| 06:34.53 | doc|home | arquebus: nope, not specifically, but I've been reading a *lot* |
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| 06:35.16 | SpeedEvil | doc|home: in a well-run command economy, there are quotas for hte sorts of nails too. |
| 06:35.20 | doc|home | aum: look up the history of corporations, they're government created entities (in a sense). |
| 06:35.26 | doc|home | SpeedEvil: based on? |
| 06:35.33 | doc|home | SpeedEvil: centralisation fails. Every time. |
| 06:35.37 | SpeedEvil | doc|home: but running it well is the hard part. |
| 06:35.43 | emilis_info | @#$%! |
| 06:35.57 | aum | believes things went weird when corporations won the test cases giving them the rights of normal humans |
| 06:35.58 | emilis_info | is there a stable and not damn slow release for FR? |
| 06:36.11 | doc|home | SpeedEvil: impossible. You can't mix politics and business. People can't be made redundant without strikes. etc. |
| 06:36.13 | parodyoflanguage | SpeedEvil: There have been arguments that a central command economy is even theoretically inefficient. It's not just a matter of how *well* it's being run. |
| 06:36.33 | doc|home | not even theoretically, look back at history and there are plenty of examples |
| 06:36.48 | SpeedEvil | It depends on the centralisation. For example, war production in the UK vastly went up when other sectors of the economy got shut down to aid it. |
| 06:36.57 | doc|home | not to mention that government created businesses inherently destroy competition, e.g. lysander spooner vs US Post |
| 06:37.00 | SpeedEvil | (It was illegal to buy a chair with decorations) |
| 06:37.08 | doc|home | SpeedEvil: at what cost? |
| 06:37.14 | doc|home | SpeedEvil: rationing was one |
| 06:37.19 | doc|home | death of millions was another |
| 06:37.27 | parodyoflanguage | doc|home: Well, theoretically is stronger than historically, since history can only demonstrate a small set of permutations. |
| 06:37.31 | emilis_info | guys, stop arguing about that nonsense |
| 06:37.38 | emilis_info | I lived under communist rule |
| 06:37.41 | emilis_info | they suck totally |
| 06:37.53 | emilis_info | I'm from former USSR |
| 06:38.02 | doc|home | parodyoflanguage: er, what? |
| 06:38.09 | doc|home | emilis_info: indeed |
| 06:38.15 | SpeedEvil | Death of millions may be a slightly spurious argument. The other side also caused death of millions, and had ambitions to systematically cause more. |
| 06:38.28 | emilis_info | central planning is just the same corporate thugs, just without any decent control from society |
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| 06:39.25 | arquebus | emilis_info: socolism works well in countries like France, Sweden and Germany |
| 06:39.36 | doc|home | SpeedEvil: not at all. One of the things that people loved about war is that so many people are employed. Well yeah, because there's often conscription/drafts which is nothing more than paid slavery with a risk of death |
| 06:39.43 | parodyoflanguage | doc|home: Well, if you just argue that historical case A, B, and C failed it could always be argued that it wasn't because they were centrally planned economies, but for other reasons. A theoretical argument narrows it down to the definition of a centrally planned economy. |
| 06:40.05 | arquebus | *socialism |
| 06:40.21 | emilis_info | well I haven't lived in socialism |
| 06:40.28 | emilis_info | can't argue about that |
| 06:40.30 | doc|home | arquebus: not really. Historically each of those has had to remove their socialist systems to actually improve their citizens' position. Look at germany after world war II. |
| 06:40.37 | aum | in a free market, people are oppressed by corporations; under socialism, people are oppressed by government |
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| 06:41.00 | emilis_info | goverment oppression is more evil |
| 06:41.04 | doc|home | aum: no possible. As I've said, in a free economy corporations don't exist. They *are* government sanctioned entities. |
| 06:41.09 | parodyoflanguage | A theoretical argument provides a necessary conclusion; a historical argument can only provide a contingent conclusion. |
| 06:41.09 | doc|home | *not |
| 06:41.14 | arquebus | aum- thats why both pure socialism and pure capitalism is bad |
| 06:41.27 | doc|home | aum: you will have people who create businesses. No limited liability etc. |
| 06:41.42 | doc|home | arquebus: nope, again, anything that intervenes is a spanner in the works. |
| 06:41.51 | doc|home | parodyoflanguage: how so? |
| 06:42.11 | aum | part of NZ;'s rejuvenation since the 80s has been a massive watering down of limited liability |
| 06:42.33 | parodyoflanguage | doc|home: Sorry, I can't teach you logic in an hour. |
| 06:42.52 | doc|home | parodyoflanguage: hah, you're the person promoting socialism, really, I doubt you even understand logic. |
| 06:43.04 | arquebus | doc|home: you just said corperations are a government sactioned, and now you say any thing that invervenes with capitalism is spanner in the works |
| 06:43.04 | aum | has cobwebs growing under his chair, as he waits for OE to build a fresh new image |
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| 06:43.09 | parodyoflanguage | doc|home: Who's promoting socialism? |
| 06:43.13 | doc|home | parodyoflanguage: you should spend some time listening to murray rothbard's lectures on mises.org. Very informative. |
| 06:43.22 | doc|home | parodyoflanguage: seems you are. |
| 06:43.37 | parodyoflanguage | doc|home: Look again. And stop being an ideologue. |
| 06:43.45 | doc|home | stop being vague :) |
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| 06:44.23 | aum | while we're on the topic of economics/politics, what are people's views on protectionism vs globalism? |
| 06:44.53 | parodyoflanguage | doc|home: BTW, I wasn't criticizing your logic or anything. It's just something I've been studying on and off again since high school and I think it's useful for discussions like this. |
| 06:45.27 | parodyoflanguage | Logic == good, that's all I'm saying. I'm not saying any position is more logical than the other; in fact, that's impossible. It is arguments that are valid or invalid, not beliefs. |
| 06:45.39 | arquebus | doc|home: there are quite a lot of restrictions and regulations to control corperations in america, and without the rules we would end up going through another great depression, just look at todays headlines to see what un-regulated bussiness practices have done to the US |
| 06:46.00 | SpeedEvil | arquebus: you can't quite get there from here. |
| 06:46.19 | parodyoflanguage | aum: That's a difficult topic. |
| 06:46.41 | ieatlint | the real losers in the US are the people who were responsible, not those losing their homes |
| 06:46.43 | doc|home | arquebus: there are a lot, the powers that the government have is one, including the federal reserve for example, and look where the financial system is. |
| 06:46.55 | parodyoflanguage | aum: On one hand, I don't particularly like the idea of third world countries losing their soveirgnty to foreign corporations. |
| 06:46.59 | doc|home | ieatlint: those losing their homes are just as responsible, living beyond their means. |
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| 06:47.18 | ieatlint | err, i forgot to put a negative on that |
| 06:47.19 | aum | parodyoflanguage: i'm not even into first-world countries losing their sovereignty to large corporations |
| 06:47.27 | parodyoflanguage | aum: On the other hand, I do find merit in the economists who say that we're basically better off if we keep free trade. |
| 06:47.51 | ieatlint | doc|home, what i mean is those who were responsible with their finances |
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| 06:48.13 | aum | parodyoflanguage: now here's a question - is the modal standard of living maximised by greater inequalities of wealth? |
| 06:48.18 | ieatlint | for instance, my mother... retired, had been saving for retirement for over 30 years into a 401k, all invested "securely" in mutual funds |
| 06:48.31 | ieatlint | her retirement is disappearing because of the irresponsible actions of others |
| 06:48.36 | doc|home | ieatlint: ah, yes. I agree. But because of regulation everyone else (including those who were responsible) is going to have to bail out those who fucked up (via taxes) |
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| 06:48.54 | parodyoflanguage | aum: Well, it doesn't bother me if the corporation exists within the country, because the corp is subsumed under the country's laws. |
| 06:49.06 | ieatlint | and the gov is trying to save those who bought homes beyond their means, not those who responsibly saved, retired, and now due to others suddenly can barely afford anything |
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| 06:49.36 | aum | wasn't the subprime crisis triggered by Duhhhbya making noises about 'getting minorities into home ownership'? |
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| 06:50.01 | ieatlint | or those who didn't buy houses beyond their means because they weren't idiots -- the gov seems on course to step in and save all those idiots, rewarding incompetence and punishing those who declined to enter into unwise mortgages |
| 06:50.01 | parodyoflanguage | aum: By definition, distribution of wealth is independent of standard of living. |
| 06:50.02 | arquebus | aum- it depends, a country like the US can get away with greater wealth disparity due to its much greater industrial capactiy compared to say european countries |
| 06:50.03 | doc|home | aum: no, that has been in the works since 1913 |
| 06:50.42 | arquebus | aum- more bussiness, more jobs, greater gnp |
| 06:50.46 | ieatlint | aum, he participated by lowering the interest rate to a 50-year low (1%) and then keeping it there for 18 months (which had never happened before) |
| 06:50.57 | ieatlint | but the banks were the main cause |
| 06:51.03 | ieatlint | followed by the real estate agents |
| 06:51.20 | doc|home | ieatlint: nope, the federal reserve was the main cause, creating so much money |
| 06:51.25 | doc|home | or credit rather |
| 06:51.31 | ieatlint | and ultimately, people who entered into mortgage agreements that they never had a dream of paying off |
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| 06:51.43 | aum | i tend to take a psychological perspective - looking at the situation where poorer people tend to make worse financial decisions, and tend to be more susceptible to marketing, so by effectively abdicating their economic power, they give huge power to corporations |
| 06:52.16 | kelvie | checks that this is #openmoko |
| 06:52.46 | parodyoflanguage | aum: Yeah, somehow people who make poor financial decisions also tend to be poor. Must be the man keeping them down :) |
| 06:52.48 | doc|home | aum: there's a major problem in that people think someone else (the government for one) is going to take care of them. |
| 06:53.00 | kelvie | though I don't think I've been in an irc channel that hasn't delved into long deep discussions about politics |
| 06:53.06 | aum | in response to kelvia notices the first 4 characters of the channel name |
| 06:54.04 | parodyoflanguage | True aum, I also like to talk about conning people in #concatenative. :) |
| 06:54.04 | ieatlint | doc|home, and just because the feds lowered the rates so much and allowed such high borrowing (and with a previously established record of bailing out large banks that fail) hardly puts the bulk of the blame on them |
| 06:54.14 | aum | parodyoflanguage: hehe |
| 06:54.18 | AJuOnLiNE | 1973 doesnt have wifi ? |
| 06:54.32 | ieatlint | that's like me not locking my house as i go on vacation, it getting robbed, and the police shrugging it off saying it's my fault |
| 06:54.57 | ieatlint | they may have set up a situation that allowed this whole mess, but they are not the cause |
| 06:55.21 | doc|home | ieatlint: yeah it does, what have they done since? Well they tried to lower the rates to increase borrowing! yey! |
| 06:55.22 | doc|home | smrt |
| 06:55.34 | aum | one of the side effects of being poor is that it becomes much harder to reason clearly about financial responsibility |
| 06:55.40 | ieatlint | no one is going to accuse the feds are being intelligent |
| 06:55.47 | doc|home | ieatlint: don't get me wrong, not just the fed, but a lot of the blame goes to the fed |
| 06:56.20 | ieatlint | community colleges need to start teaching financing/economics/retirement for free to help people |
| 06:56.57 | ieatlint | if they offered a class where you went in a couple hours a week for a month... and it just covered the financial situations people run into... we could decrease this shit from happening again |
| 06:57.34 | ieatlint | explain the true risks of adjustable rates, credit card interest, retirement benefits, and hundreds of acronyms that we're never taught and people are too embarrassed to ask about |
| 06:57.53 | aum | would like to see Robert Kiyosaki programms taught from elementary school onwards |
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| 07:00.36 | doc|home | ieatlint: not likely, if people were taught the truth those who allocate funding for the schools would be out of jobs |
| 07:01.02 | ieatlint | heh |
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| 07:02.10 | ieatlint | banks should require you define "equity" before allowing you to get an equity line of credit :P |
| 07:02.29 | *** join/#openmoko nslu2-log (n=nslu2-lo@limax.nslu2-linux.org) |
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| 07:05.14 | aum | the big problem of finance is its recursiveness - for instance Analyst A values a stock based on what Analyst B thinks, and vice versa |
| 07:05.45 | aum | even though that's a dramatic oversimplification |
| 07:09.55 | Hopscotch | good morning |
| 07:12.06 | *** join/#openmoko leinir_ (n=leinir@k5.natout.cs.aau.dk) |
| 07:14.38 | CIA-22 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * r8af3c2c0b814 10/fsod/src/subsystems/Device/ (Device.vala input/input.vala): Suppress some debug messages and add support for disable key |
| 07:14.43 | CIA-22 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * rcafdb0ea5884 10/fsod/src/fsod.vala: Add a 50 second timeout in the mainloop |
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| 07:27.26 | RedFlash2000 | hi, how do I add python-pygtk on om 2007.11 ? |
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| 07:43.04 | AJuOnLiNE | alphaone: |
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| 08:31.06 | ||Leto|| | uhm |
| 08:31.14 | Sean21 | i have a problem |
| 08:31.28 | Sean21 | when i try to start my freerunner, only the aux-button start blinking |
| 08:31.45 | Sean21 | in an interval of about .5 seconds |
| 08:31.53 | Sean21 | or 1 |
| 08:32.08 | Sean21 | and i hear a short rush from the speaker |
| 08:32.13 | Sean21 | nothing else happens |
| 08:32.15 | Sean21 | :( |
| 08:32.43 | charlie137 | Sean21: have you tried to boot on u-boot menu ? |
| 08:32.56 | Sean21 | aux+power? |
| 08:33.01 | Richy | what happens when you press the aux-button first, keep it pressed and press the powerbutton |
| 08:33.09 | charlie137 | you can boot on the u-boot on NOR or RAND memopry |
| 08:33.11 | Sean21 | yeah, i'm gonna remove the battery and try again |
| 08:33.20 | charlie137 | i suggest you try both |
| 08:33.40 | charlie137 | *NOR or NAND |
| 08:34.37 | Sean21 | nothing :-Y |
| 08:34.40 | Sean21 | :-X |
| 08:34.52 | Sean21 | pwr-cord only and battery only |
| 08:35.00 | *** join/#openmoko balrog-kun (n=balrog@ckw29.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 08:35.00 | charlie137 | try this : press AUX, then power button, then release AUX, then release power button |
| 08:35.26 | charlie137 | no sorry : press AUX, then power button, then release AUX, then wait while holding power button |
| 08:36.26 | *** join/#openmoko h4v (n=h4v@rps3200.ovh.net) |
| 08:36.28 | Sean21 | nothing |
| 08:37.06 | charlie137 | try the same thing with the battery and the neo usb plugged |
| 08:37.54 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-171-194.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 08:38.31 | *** join/#openmoko johncylee (n=john@firewall.tw.openmoko.org) |
| 08:39.23 | Psi | ive been away for a while, are there any 2008.8 gta01 images available yet? |
| 08:40.49 | *** join/#openmoko CIA-23 (n=CIA@208.69.182.149) |
| 08:42.33 | *** join/#openmoko mgww (n=mgww@p549C308E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 08:44.02 | Sean21 | ok |
| 08:44.05 | Sean21 | boots now |
| 08:44.13 | Sean21 | dunno what that was about :-X |
| 08:44.21 | Sean21 | managed to get into the uboot eventually |
| 08:44.27 | *** join/#openmoko maddy (n=vinu@61.16.248.242) |
| 08:44.30 | Sean21 | thanks charlie137 :) |
| 08:45.18 | *** join/#openmoko Proton23 (n=proton@p57BA5207.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 08:47.49 | charlie137 | Sean21: you should reflash your NAND u-boot partition |
| 08:48.12 | charlie137 | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_the_Neo_FreeRunner#Flashing_the_boot_loader_to_the_NAND |
| 08:48.19 | *** join/#openmoko ptitjes (n=didier@93.2.7.240) |
| 08:49.02 | ptitjes | hello! |
| 08:49.36 | polz | Psi: not that I know of. |
| 08:49.49 | Psi | ok, thanks anyway |
| 08:50.15 | *** join/#openmoko froksen (n=froksen@87.54.254.190) |
| 08:50.45 | ptitjes | can someone tell me if/how I can install qemu in my filesystem once for all (I mean out of the openembedded stuff) ? |
| 08:53.59 | *** join/#openmoko tomboy64 (n=tomboy64@e178032245.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
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| 08:55.50 | tomboy64 | meh |
| 08:55.56 | tomboy64 | having that loudness issue again |
| 08:56.00 | tomboy64 | people can't hear me |
| 08:56.10 | tomboy64 | i used to reset a value in some config file |
| 08:56.13 | tomboy64 | in 2008.8 |
| 08:56.18 | tomboy64 | but can't recall which it was |
| 08:56.22 | tomboy64 | anyone knows? |
| 08:57.40 | tomboy64 | meh |
| 09:03.16 | Zorkman_ | On a fresh FSO ms3 flash I can't ssh in, does anybody know how i can fix this? |
| 09:04.01 | charlie137 | Zorkman_: what happens when you ssh ? |
| 09:04.11 | Zorkman_ | I don't get a response |
| 09:04.32 | charlie137 | is your usb interface ok ? |
| 09:04.34 | charlie137 | ifconfig |
| 09:04.36 | Zorkman_ | (i'm booting from SD, but it always worked when booting from SD) |
| 09:04.53 | Zorkman_ | charlie137: do you mean on my FR or on the host? |
| 09:04.59 | charlie137 | on the host |
| 09:05.01 | *** join/#openmoko dolf1074_ (n=chatzill@78-20-186-137.access.telenet.be) |
| 09:05.07 | Zorkman_ | yeah it is |
| 09:05.14 | Zorkman_ | checked it on linux and on windows btw |
| 09:05.25 | charlie137 | when you type ifconfig, you should see you ip, should be 192.168.0.200 |
| 09:06.03 | charlie137 | Zorkman_: sorry , forgot that some people use window :P |
| 09:06.17 | Zorkman_ | yeah, that was no problem, besides: I can ssh in onto qtopia withouth problem |
| 09:06.40 | charlie137 | hum |
| 09:06.56 | *** join/#openmoko boozkachu (n=nick@mail.phgroup.com) |
| 09:06.59 | charlie137 | I have a FSO image here, and I ssh into it |
| 09:07.02 | charlie137 | no problem |
| 09:07.11 | charlie137 | (image on flash, not SD card) |
| 09:07.20 | boozkachu | Hi there, is there any new hardware coming out soon? |
| 09:07.24 | Zorkman_ | that's the strange part, qtopia on internal flash works fine and i can ssh into it, but not into fso... reflashed it twice already :) |
| 09:07.31 | Zorkman_ | boozkachu: nobody knows |
| 09:07.37 | boozkachu | I really want to get a Freerunner but am not sure on the release cycle for hardware |
| 09:07.37 | charlie137 | Zorkman_ can you ping your neo ? |
| 09:07.42 | boozkachu | Zorkman_: thanks |
| 09:08.16 | boozkachu | How much did you guys pay for the phone? |
| 09:08.32 | charlie137 | Zorkman_: ping 192.168.0.202 |
| 09:08.33 | Zorkman_ | 335EURO (shipping and VAT included) |
| 09:08.53 | Zorkman_ | charlie137: no response :) |
| 09:09.01 | Zorkman_ | what can i do on the FR to fix this? |
| 09:09.19 | boozkachu | Zorkman_: I'm guessing you're in the UK, can recommend a distributor? |
| 09:09.33 | charlie137 | Zorkman_: well can you go in the terminal app ? |
| 09:09.41 | Zorkman_ | boozkachu: i'm in belgium |
| 09:09.51 | Zorkman_ | charlie137: yes |
| 09:10.14 | charlie137 | so first thing : ifconfig |
| 09:10.18 | *** join/#openmoko lambda (n=seb@33.15.195-77.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 09:10.19 | Zorkman_ | done |
| 09:10.36 | Zorkman_ | i only have "lo" |
| 09:10.39 | Zorkman_ | no eth0 |
| 09:10.40 | Tig| | boozkachu: UK distributor Trubox |
| 09:10.46 | boozkachu | Zorkman_: hehe ok thanks |
| 09:11.03 | boozkachu | Tig|: Cheers, on their site now, GTA02 is what i want i think |
| 09:11.06 | Tig| | https://www.truebox.co.uk/trueboxportal/index.php?wk=Openmoko |
| 09:11.06 | charlie137 | and no usb0 ? |
| 09:11.12 | Zorkman_ | charlie137: nope |
| 09:11.16 | Zorkman_ | only 'lo' |
| 09:11.27 | charlie137 | Zorkman_: then that is the problem |
| 09:11.31 | *** part/#openmoko rmoravcik (n=rmoravci@gtsgw.ttc.cz) |
| 09:11.32 | Zorkman_ | indeed |
| 09:11.39 | Zorkman_ | do you know a sollution? |
| 09:11.44 | boozkachu | anyone have the debug board? |
| 09:11.56 | Zorkman_ | (on the ML i read some stuff about the g_ether module...) |
| 09:12.18 | charlie137 | Zorkman_: cat /etc/network/interface |
| 09:12.37 | charlie137 | Zorkman_: sorry : cat /etc/network/interfaces |
| 09:12.53 | charlie137 | there you should see a usb0 config |
| 09:13.54 | charlie137 | do you have it ? |
| 09:13.57 | Zorkman_ | "can't open '/etc/network/interface': No such file or directory |
| 09:14.06 | charlie137 | Zorkman_ : ?? |
| 09:14.17 | boozkachu | Hmm im going to float this out here, but does anyone else have an iPhone as well? |
| 09:14.46 | Zorkman_ | charlie137: i'm not kidding... that what it says in the terminalm |
| 09:14.57 | charlie137 | Zorkman_: i believe you :) |
| 09:15.08 | Zorkman_ | aha, it's interfaces |
| 09:15.11 | Zorkman_ | plural :) |
| 09:15.12 | charlie137 | Zorkman_ : interfaces |
| 09:15.14 | charlie137 | ok :) |
| 09:16.07 | Zorkman_ | ok, what do you need to know? |
| 09:16.27 | Zorkman_ | there is an iface usb0 inet static |
| 09:16.31 | *** join/#openmoko tomboy64 (n=tomboy64@e178032245.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 09:17.10 | charlie137 | Zorkman_: then try this : /etc/init.d/networking restart |
| 09:18.30 | Zorkman_ | charlie137: doesn't work, stoll onlyu have 'lo'; when i run that command i get some errors: |
| 09:18.51 | Zorkman_ | route: SIODELRT: No such device |
| 09:19.12 | Zorkman_ | ifconfig: SIOCGIFFLAGS: No such device |
| 09:19.16 | Zorkman_ | ifconfig: SIOCGIFFLAGS: No such device |
| 09:19.22 | Zorkman_ | usb0: no such device |
| 09:19.44 | Zorkman_ | etc etc |
| 09:21.07 | *** join/#openmoko dbmoodb_ (n=ooos@unaffiliated/dbmoodb) |
| 09:21.23 | charlie137 | Zorkman_: i am afraid that starts to get beyond my competences :( |
| 09:21.46 | Zorkman_ | np, i appreciate your help |
| 09:22.01 | Zorkman_ | if anybody else in this chan has an idea: shoot :) |
| 09:22.37 | *** join/#openmoko laBrute (n=wax@218.1.111.178) |
| 09:23.23 | zash | i have cookies |
| 09:23.38 | Zorkman_ | :) |
| 09:24.17 | *** join/#openmoko hil__ (n=hilbert@116.58.100.82) |
| 09:24.44 | zash | i have found that i like dwm |
| 09:25.29 | charlie137 | Zorkman_: you can also try this : dmesg | grep usb |
| 09:26.32 | *** join/#openmoko KenSentMe (n=KenSentM@ip-145-93-88-18.fontys.nl) |
| 09:26.32 | laBrute | hi everyone! is there anyway we could get the openmoko in China [Shanghai] ? |
| 09:27.24 | hil__ | i believe openmoko is assembled in china |
| 09:27.32 | hil__ | why shouldn't you be able to get it there? :O |
| 09:29.29 | hil__ | how can we find out from within the freerunner which distribution it's running.. om2007.2 or om2008.8 |
| 09:31.38 | *** join/#openmoko rmoravcik (n=rmoravci@gtsgw.ttc.cz) |
| 09:31.47 | zash | hil__: whats in /etc/*lsb* |
| 09:31.59 | Tig| | hil__: does it look like : http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/thumb/1/10/Todaypage_reduced_false.png/200px-Todaypage_reduced_false.png |
| 09:32.04 | charlie137 | hil__: you can check /etc/om-version I think |
| 09:32.04 | Tig| | if so it is 2007 |
| 09:32.33 | Tig| | if it looks like : http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/thumb/d/df/Om2008_home.png/200px-Om2008_home.png |
| 09:32.33 | laBrute | it is built in china right |
| 09:32.33 | *** join/#openmoko alephnull (n=alok@122.167.83.61) |
| 09:32.39 | Tig| | it is ASU |
| 09:32.40 | laBrute | taiwan exactly |
| 09:32.49 | laBrute | but they dont have any resellers here :'( |
| 09:33.35 | hil__ | it looks like the first one... |
| 09:33.49 | hil__ | but I built om2008.8 from the makefile... shouldn't it be 2008.8? :O |
| 09:34.04 | hil__ | laBrute: you may try pulster.de. We got ours from there |
| 09:34.15 | *** part/#openmoko Mathiasdm2 (n=Mathias@78-22-6-189.access.telenet.be) |
| 09:34.17 | laBrute | hil__, thanks |
| 09:34.21 | laBrute | i'll check |
| 09:34.44 | Tig| | hil__: the first one is the 2007.2 stack |
| 09:35.18 | Tig| | hil__: have a look here for more information on the distributions available : http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions |
| 09:35.51 | hil__ | Tig|: I've seen that but I thought the makefile built om2008.8 by default nowadays... |
| 09:36.24 | Tig| | hil__: no idea on the makefile here i am afraid |
| 09:36.45 | hil__ | okay. maybe rwhitby or someone else who's worked on the makefile can elaborate |
| 09:38.06 | ptitjes | hil__: Yes it does now build 0m2008.8 by default |
| 09:38.24 | ptitjes | guys did someone got this one : |
| 09:38.36 | hil__ | ptitjes: I used it a week ago and it built 2007.2 .... do we have to change anything in the local.conf? |
| 09:38.47 | ptitjes | package perl-native-5.8.8-r13: task do_compile: started |
| 09:38.47 | ptitjes | ERROR: function do_compile failed |
| 09:38.47 | ptitjes | ERROR: log data follows (/home/moko/build/tmp/work/i686-linux/perl-native-5.8.8-r13/temp/log.do_compile.25997) |
| 09:38.47 | ptitjes | | NOTE: make -e MAKEFLAGS= |
| 09:38.47 | ptitjes | | makefile:952: *** missing separator. Stop. |
| 09:38.49 | ptitjes | | FATAL: oe_runmake failed |
| 09:39.25 | ptitjes | did you "make update-makefile" |
| 09:39.30 | ptitjes | ?? |
| 09:40.05 | hil__ | I wget'd it ... doesn't that download the latest? |
| 09:40.06 | ptitjes | hil__: did you "make update-makefile" ? |
| 09:40.23 | ptitjes | yes it does |
| 09:40.37 | *** join/#openmoko pb_ (n=pb@castle.reciva.com) |
| 09:40.55 | ptitjes | all I know is now "make image" does "make openmoko-asu-image" |
| 09:40.57 | hil__ | then update shouldn't be necessary |
| 09:41.12 | hil__ | isn't it "make openmoko-devel-image" |
| 09:41.21 | hil__ | i did that and it created a 2007.2 |
| 09:41.31 | hil__ | maybe i should try asu-image |
| 09:41.36 | *** join/#openmoko Kraft_81 (n=johan@fluor.chem.au.dk) |
| 09:41.39 | ptitjes | wiki has been updated |
| 09:41.40 | hil__ | (as ASU is the codename for 08.8) |
| 09:42.03 | ptitjes | before make image did make openmoko-devel-image but not anymore |
| 09:42.46 | hil__ | oh... so now, we do "make image" |
| 09:42.50 | *** part/#openmoko Tig| (n=tigger@82.153.215.237) |
| 09:42.53 | hil__ | and that would be om2008.8 |
| 09:43.03 | hil__ | i'll give that a try then .. thanks ptitjes :) |
| 09:43.09 | ptitjes | welcome |
| 09:43.51 | *** join/#openmoko rilo (n=rilo@p54B4DBE0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 09:44.05 | rilo | Hi :) |
| 09:44.54 | Zorkman_ | charlie137: i get a few messages about registered intereface drivers (usbcore) |
| 09:45.05 | Zorkman_ | and "usbmon: debugfs is not available |
| 09:45.27 | Kraft_81 | This might have been mentioned before. But here goes: I'm able to connect via USB, I can ssh to it, I can ping the outside world, I can even download things (wget...), but when I do opkg upgrade dropbear it say "nothing to be done". It's brand new. Anyone got an idea of what to do? |
| 09:45.46 | Zorkman_ | Kraft_81: first do an opkg update |
| 09:45.55 | Kraft_81 | done that also srry |
| 09:45.57 | *** join/#openmoko iorz (n=fabian@p50826C86.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 09:46.11 | Zorkman_ | Kraft_81: check your feeds |
| 09:46.21 | Zorkman_ | in /etc/opkg |
| 09:46.34 | Kraft_81 | I get the "signature check failed", but that shouldn't matter |
| 09:46.46 | Zorkman_ | true |
| 09:46.56 | *** join/#openmoko lpotter (n=ljp@CPE-124-191-144-181.vic.bigpond.net.au) |
| 09:46.56 | Kraft_81 | Zorkman> what should they be? |
| 09:47.15 | Zorkman_ | you haven't flashed an image yet? |
| 09:47.54 | *** join/#openmoko nite613 (n=chris@i216-58-80-207.cybersurf.com) |
| 09:48.13 | Kraft_81 | Zorkman>nope... just turned it on... and /etc/opkg is empty |
| 09:48.58 | ptitjes | can someone try make build-package-perl-native please ??? |
| 09:49.51 | Kraft_81 | Zorkman> Should I flash it before doing anything else? |
| 09:50.11 | *** join/#openmoko Linux_Galore (n=richard@60-242-20-212.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 09:51.09 | Zorkman_ | Kraft_81:; that depends on how much you like the old image... |
| 09:51.27 | Zorkman_ | but i would higly suggest you first try to flash the other images and try them |
| 09:51.42 | Zorkman_ | qtopia/ASU/FSO/DEBIAN... |
| 09:51.55 | *** part/#openmoko Linux_Galore (n=richard@60-242-20-212.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 09:52.04 | Zorkman_ | afterwards choose one (or more -dual/tripple...boot) |
| 09:53.08 | Kraft_81 | Zorkman> ok I'll try to flash a new stack onto it:-) |
| 09:53.14 | Kraft_81 | cheers and thx |
| 09:53.25 | Zorkman_ | np; enjoy your FR :) |
| 09:53.45 | Kraft_81 | quit |
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| 10:00.23 | LittleIdiot | is gsmd still used? there is no binary named "gsmd" in the om 2008.8 image |
| 10:01.40 | mjr | no |
| 10:01.55 | mjr | 8.8 uses qtopia's gsm stack, fso uses something else |
| 10:02.18 | LittleIdiot | *sigh* |
| 10:03.04 | LittleIdiot | when i was done writing pulseaudio stuff, they decided to drop pulseaudio... now that i can talk to gsmd with my application they... ARGH! |
| 10:03.35 | DPThough1 | btw. does has anyone heard something about the hybrid release lately? Is there some notable progress? |
| 10:05.01 | Zorkman_ | haven't read anythinga about it lately |
| 10:05.09 | Zorkman_ | there is a wiki page that states the work being done |
| 10:10.43 | laBrute | how to get gta02 working on qemu? i tried but i always got gta01 ... i modified the MokoMakefile but no luck ... i didnt boot |
| 10:14.19 | balrog-kun | laBrute: there's no gta02 emulation |
| 10:16.53 | *** part/#openmoko hil__ (n=hilbert@116.58.100.82) |
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| 10:27.19 | laBrute | balrog-kun, ok thenks |
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| 10:58.30 | zogg_ | Heya. |
| 10:58.56 | zogg_ | Any way to write/read sms messages through command line? (ASU) |
| 10:59.05 | *** join/#openmoko HauDyr (n=kim@wnn73219.wireless.dtu.dk) |
| 10:59.07 | lindi- | zogg_: if you know python |
| 11:01.56 | *** join/#openmoko Daramarak2 (n=ivannedr@138.80-203-148.nextgentel.com) |
| 11:02.15 | Zorkman_ | I don't have usb0 on a fresh FSO ms3 flash, anybody know how to fix this? |
| 11:02.32 | *** join/#openmoko froksen (n=froksen@87.54.254.190) |
| 11:03.02 | lindi- | zogg_: did you change kernel configuration? |
| 11:03.06 | lindi- | Zorkman_: |
| 11:03.23 | Zorkman_ | lindi-: I wouldn't know how to do that :) |
| 11:03.33 | Zorkman_ | but maybe i did unknowingly, how can I check this? |
| 11:04.03 | Zorkman_ | (it didn't work, I rebooted twice, still didn't work, reflashed, rebooted twice, still no go and then I flashed the newest kernel from downloads.openmoko) |
| 11:04.22 | Zorkman_ | i'm booting from SD (qtopia from internal flash and there i can ssh in) |
| 11:04.52 | Zorkman_ | on FSO ms3 "ifconfig" only gives 'lo', no usb0 or something else |
| 11:04.55 | Zorkman_ | need to go now :(' |
| 11:05.03 | Zorkman_ | if you know something i could try, |
| 11:05.05 | Zorkman_ | please PM me |
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| 11:06.24 | lindi- | Zorkman_: ifconfig usb0 up? |
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| 11:08.51 | zogg_ | soz, was afk. lindi- im fond of python and nope, didnt change kernel configs. |
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| 11:14.48 | Daramarak2 | Anyone here got a shipment from pulster.de yet? |
| 11:16.35 | badcloud | I read some theory for charging the GTA02 while in host mode using a usb male-b to two male-a cable (plus powered hub) |
| 11:16.49 | badcloud | has anyone managed to swing something similar? |
| 11:18.30 | *** join/#openmoko arzej1 (n=user@avr170.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 11:20.08 | Weiss | badcloud: the evil y-split cable of doom? |
| 11:20.22 | badcloud | I take it by that it doesn't work that well |
| 11:20.49 | badcloud | does it fry the battery or something? |
| 11:21.23 | badcloud | or conjure up the devil or something? |
| 11:21.33 | Mononoke | anyone with java && ( ghc || hugs) package ? |
| 11:21.55 | badcloud | well, Weiss, do share |
| 11:22.27 | Weiss | badcloud: i think the 'evil' is that you're purposefully side-stepping all the power negotiation stuff, but i never paid much attention to the details. i think it was mentioend on OM-Community in the last week or so though.. |
| 11:22.48 | badcloud | I'll look that up, thanks |
| 11:23.02 | badcloud | purposefully? rather unintentionally |
| 11:23.04 | badcloud | but ok |
| 11:29.10 | *** join/#openmoko lpotter (n=ljp@CPE-124-191-144-181.vic.bigpond.net.au) |
| 11:30.35 | badcloud | so what am I missing when I read the comment in this url: http://gettingstartedopenmoko.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/charging-your-neo-freerunner/? |
| 11:30.54 | badcloud | whoops, wrong url |
| 11:30.56 | badcloud | sorry |
| 11:30.59 | badcloud | regroup |
| 11:31.32 | *** join/#openmoko dagger (n=piasekr@office.edigitalresearch.com) |
| 11:32.43 | badcloud | here we go: http://chockerblockablog.blogspot.com/2008/03/neo1973-no-wifi3gbattery-life-no.html |
| 11:32.47 | badcloud | 1st comment |
| 11:36.53 | Weiss | badcloud: i suspect it means "other end", not "either"... |
| 11:37.15 | badcloud | right |
| 11:37.39 | badcloud | as in one mini/b male going to two male-a |
| 11:38.02 | Weiss | yeah |
| 11:38.10 | Weiss | but i'm not totally sure... it's not clear from that |
| 11:38.16 | badcloud | that's what I thought |
| 11:39.25 | badcloud | I suppose the original solution is more straight forward |
| 11:39.56 | badcloud | (shorting the +5v to client ports on a powered hub) |
| 11:40.25 | Weiss | badcloud: i think you're looking for the bottom of http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Specialized_USB_cables ? |
| 11:40.40 | Weiss | badcloud: search for something like "openmoko y cable" to find mailing list discussion |
| 11:40.53 | badcloud | I actually read that one first |
| 11:41.02 | badcloud | seems like a big project |
| 11:41.47 | badcloud | thanks though |
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| 11:42.49 | RedFlash2000 | hi, I installed Illume config on om2008.8 but i didnt get any configuration possibilities |
| 11:43.57 | Weiss | RedFlash2000: open the top bar thing (where you switch windows), then press the little spanner which appears in the top left corner |
| 11:44.39 | *** join/#openmoko edistar_ (n=edistar@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 11:45.25 | RedFlash2000 | probelm is, there is nothing in the top left corner ... I got the same problem on 2007.11 (milestone 3 on sd card) when i removed hidden gadgets |
| 11:45.40 | RedFlash2000 | but in om2008.8 I didnt remove anything |
| 11:45.42 | Weiss | ah.. |
| 11:47.08 | RedFlash2000 | somebody knows where I can find the configuration files of illume config ? |
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| 12:13.08 | Dave | eyes leinir suspiciously |
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| 12:15.12 | deubeuliou | hi |
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| 12:19.05 | Dave | woohoo, everybody likes deeply discharged batteries... -_- |
| 12:19.22 | bumbl | Dave: yeah, who doesn't? |
| 12:19.45 | deubeuliou | I have troubles connecting in ssh on my openmoko using Nautilus... I specified "ssh://root@om" (om=192.168.0.202) and it doesn't work, while "ssh root@om" in my terminal works |
| 12:20.07 | dolf1074 | try to use sftp:// |
| 12:20.16 | deubeuliou | and tried too |
| 12:20.25 | deubeuliou | (and it works with filezilla) |
| 12:21.08 | deubeuliou | I can connect to other sshs |
| 12:22.20 | deubeuliou | s/and tried too/I tried too/ |
| 12:22.36 | *** join/#openmoko white_gecko (n=natanael@wlan0477.rz.uni-leipzig.de) |
| 12:22.37 | dolf1074 | you're using ubuntu? |
| 12:22.39 | white_gecko | hello |
| 12:22.43 | deubeuliou | debian |
| 12:23.02 | white_gecko | is there already a networkmanager (nm) for 2008.08 ? |
| 12:23.16 | deubeuliou | mmh I should do an upgrade |
| 12:23.18 | igor321 | hello anyone expceting the latest shipment from pulster? |
| 12:23.23 | deubeuliou | white_gecko: more or less |
| 12:23.33 | Daramarak2 | igor321: I am |
| 12:23.38 | deubeuliou | the "Setting" programm includes a wifi manager |
| 12:23.49 | deubeuliou | which is close from stable |
| 12:23.50 | igor321 | Daramarak2: the sept 15. one? |
| 12:24.06 | Daramarak2 | igor321: Yes sir |
| 12:24.12 | white_gecko | deubeuliou: where can i find information about this |
| 12:24.22 | dolf1074 | deubeuliou: so you can now ping into your phone with ping om, but you can't use ssh://root@om? |
| 12:24.25 | igor321 | Daramarak2: did ya get any mails or so? |
| 12:24.30 | *** join/#openmoko christooss (n=matic@84-255-246-158.static.t-2.net) |
| 12:25.00 | dolf1074 | deubeuliou: try with ssh://root@192.168.0.202 |
| 12:25.04 | Daramarak2 | igor321: No ii did not order it. I am part of a group. |
| 12:25.23 | igor321 | Daramarak2: ah, okay |
| 12:25.30 | igor321 | we'll have to be patient i guess |
| 12:25.32 | Dave | wow, qtopia's pretty terrible |
| 12:25.42 | Daramarak2 | Yes, i guess so |
| 12:25.54 | Dave | How can ANYONE type with predictive text. |
| 12:25.55 | Daramarak2 | igor321:You got a mail? |
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| 12:25.57 | deubeuliou | dolf1074: I tried that too |
| 12:26.08 | Dave | It totally impedes productive typing. |
| 12:26.19 | dolf1074 | deubeuliou: than I don't know a solution |
| 12:26.33 | igor321 | Daramarak2: only the one like a month ago, saying that they're getting the mokos on the 15. and the shipping estimates |
| 12:26.41 | *** join/#openmoko renato (n=renato@200.184.118.132) |
| 12:26.42 | igor321 | it was one day for my country |
| 12:27.14 | igor321 | http://www.dhl.de/dhl?tab=1&skin=hi&check=yes&lang=de_EN&xmlFile=3607 |
| 12:27.29 | deubeuliou | ok.... |
| 12:27.36 | deubeuliou | white_gecko: I don't know |
| 12:28.23 | Dave | Lpotter |
| 12:28.24 | Daramarak2 | igor321: I heard that one got a mail on saturday. beni_ i think or was it bipak_? |
| 12:29.39 | igor321 | Daramarak2: i have no idea i just hope i get it in this shipment, i did order it some 4 months ago or so :) |
| 12:30.22 | Daramarak2 | igor321:I think you are pretty safe then :) |
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| 12:30.41 | white_gecko | hm |
| 12:31.07 | igor321 | Daramarak2: i'll be waiting till the end of this week and then sendin them some emails |
| 12:35.41 | *** part/#openmoko charlie137 (n=charlie@firewall.tw.openmoko.org) |
| 12:43.13 | TAsn | zhone and illume don't have utf fonts ;\ |
| 12:44.29 | TAsn | *don,t use. |
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| 12:49.27 | Weiss | deubeuliou: did you change the shell for root by any chance? |
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| 12:51.27 | rilo | quit |
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| 12:58.56 | TAsn | where can i change the illume fonts at? |
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| 13:02.04 | noaXess | hi all |
| 13:02.21 | noaXess | does anybody know a plan for a integrated cam in neo freerunner? |
| 13:03.08 | mjr | no, and it's probably difficult to add |
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| 13:06.31 | noaXess | mjr: an external will be nice :) http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Camera |
| 13:08.46 | Zorkman_ | lindi-: ifconfig usb0 up gives "ifconfig SIOCGIFFLAGS: No such device" |
| 13:09.38 | mjr | wonder what they're thinking for the data transfer... |
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| 13:17.53 | Dave | qtopia.fail |
| 13:18.11 | *** part/#openmoko freebzh_jabber (n=freebzh_@80.248.214.43) |
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| 13:21.37 | dns53 | qtopia can make phone calls all the time, 2008.8 can't |
| 13:23.18 | DPThough1 | any ideas why opgk install returns "An error ocurred, return value: 2."? (fresh fso rev3 install) |
| 13:23.32 | johnsu01 | waves from the train via laptop => bluetooth => openmoko => gprs |
| 13:23.47 | *** join/#openmoko larry_jr (n=Larry@200.184.118.132) |
| 13:23.54 | dns53 | you are installing something that is not in the package manager |
| 13:23.59 | edistar | johnsu01: nice one |
| 13:25.36 | DPThough1 | dns53: oh, you are right, somehow the avaibable packets changed between the 20080911 and 20080910 release. Bad error message though |
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| 13:30.20 | rwhitby | DPThough1: what are your feeds set to? fso3 has no feeds at the moment |
| 13:30.42 | johnsu01 | Interesting that the GPRS indicator does not go solid when on via bluetooth |
| 13:30.43 | *** join/#openmoko apol (n=apol@xsftbnupc02.upc.es) |
| 13:31.59 | DPThough1 | rwhitby: http://my-distribution.org/remote-feed/... |
| 13:32.15 | rwhitby | that's a dummy URL |
| 13:32.20 | TAsn | DPThough1, that's jut a placeholder |
| 13:32.31 | DPThough1 | rwhitby: are there some compatible repositories where i can get navit and the like... |
| 13:32.44 | TAsn | DPThough1, look in the wiki for user repositories and try shr.bearstech |
| 13:32.45 | TAsn | ... |
| 13:32.50 | TAsn | that's the one im using. |
| 13:32.57 | rwhitby | there are repositories, but none are currently upgrade compatible with the official fso3 image |
| 13:33.13 | TAsn | exactly. |
| 13:33.15 | rwhitby | you can only use the shr repositories with an image you've installed from shr |
| 13:33.46 | DPThough1 | well, i'm not inclined to trash my system with bad packages.. :) |
| 13:34.24 | DPThough1 | i think i will use the shr image thx |
| 13:34.39 | TAsn | rwhitby, really |
| 13:34.40 | TAsn | ? |
| 13:34.53 | TAsn | i c, that's maybe why opkg upgrade trashed my installation. |
| 13:35.01 | TAsn | anyhow, im using that one and stuff do work |
| 13:35.03 | TAsn | just not upgrade |
| 13:35.04 | TAsn | ;0 |
| 13:35.40 | rwhitby | TAsn: yes, really. bitbake and git aren't mixing well, so the images that mickeyl built on a different machine are not upgrade compatible with the feeds on shr.bearstech.com |
| 13:35.51 | DPThough1 | sounds like just the way package management is not meant to be... :) |
| 13:36.34 | mickeyl | well |
| 13:36.36 | TAsn | DPThough1, :) |
| 13:36.37 | mickeyl | git really is to blame imo |
| 13:36.38 | rwhitby | well, it boils down to a non-reproducible build system at the moment |
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| 13:37.07 | mickeyl | or anything that lack monotonely increasing versioning numbers |
| 13:37.08 | TAsn | mickeyl, is there any documentation avilable about fso3? |
| 13:37.16 | mickeyl | TAsn: docs.freesmartphone.org |
| 13:37.20 | TAsn | cool. |
| 13:37.21 | TAsn | thanks. |
| 13:37.25 | DPThough1 | i was more referingto TAsn just using it. But you are right, there should be stable versioning |
| 13:37.39 | TAsn | DPThough1, :) |
| 13:37.44 | rwhitby | mickeyl: yeah, but we knew that, so why wasn't it taken into account when the git fetcher was written? |
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| 13:37.55 | ronny | git versioning is pretty stable |
| 13:38.01 | mickeyl | rwhitby: no idea |
| 13:38.05 | ronny | after all the revisions form a dag |
| 13:38.17 | ronny | btw, sincve when does monotone have numeric id's ? |
| 13:38.24 | ronny | last time i worked with it it was hashes |
| 13:38.25 | mickeyl | rwhitby: we need zecke's SRCPV fix |
| 13:38.38 | DPThough1 | yea, that is what i don't get. If you fetch a specific git version you get what you want. Does the build system use something else? |
| 13:38.39 | rwhitby | mickeyl: so should FSO builds use bitbake from OM git repo? |
| 13:38.54 | mickeyl | rwhitby: unclear, i have no experience with that |
| 13:39.00 | mickeyl | i'd rather way until it's in OE |
| 13:39.04 | rwhitby | DPThough1: given two git revisions, you can't order them just by looking at the revisions |
| 13:39.16 | rwhitby | (you need access to the DAG) |
| 13:39.27 | Dave | rwhitby! |
| 13:39.33 | rwhitby | bitbake doesn't understand that at the moment |
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| 13:39.42 | rwhitby | (at least the bitbake the FSO builds use doesn't) |
| 13:39.57 | TAsn | mickeyl, and where can i get the zhone source code? |
| 13:40.03 | ronny | hmm, reminds me that i hate bitbake |
| 13:40.08 | *** part/#openmoko ChandleWEi (n=chandle@61.170.163.75) |
| 13:40.10 | rwhitby | TAsn: git.freesmartphone.org |
| 13:40.18 | TAsn | fair enough. |
| 13:40.20 | TAsn | :) |
| 13:40.28 | Dave | gimpy |
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| 13:41.22 | DPThough1 | rwhitby: yets. they are not version numbers. But one should be able to say packet xyz is build from this git revision and this and that patch id. Should not the receipes specify what exact source they want? Honestly i have no idea how bitbake is used, but i expected it wo be this way. |
| 13:41.54 | rwhitby | DPThough1: that's why I've said they are not upgrade compatible |
| 13:42.07 | Dave | hah |
| 13:42.08 | Dave | surprisae |
| 13:42.28 | rwhitby | since you can't determine if the package in the feed is newer or older than the package you already have, just by looking at the git commit id |
| 13:42.49 | Dave | I suppose so |
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| 13:43.17 | Dave | You should at least have the abilitity to tell it that, explicitly! |
| 13:43.25 | DPThough1 | rwhitby: yea, as long as you use head. But this is no suprise. |
| 13:45.00 | DPThough1 | other version controll systems should have the same isseu. as long as they put versions on files and not on directories. Because if i change one source file the packages has not gone one numer up, only the file. |
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| 13:46.53 | DPThough1 | We have the same problem here in our company. Head version buils are not very update safe, if we want to release something we have to count the sub verison number one up tag it and use this tag in the build receipe. |
| 13:47.15 | DPThough1 | like package version plus build number. |
| 13:47.41 | DPThough1 | lot of work though... |
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| 13:50.37 | DPThough1 | i hope some time i will understand how openmoko build systems work. dangerous superficial knowledge :) |
| 13:51.05 | ronny | hmm, i never liked bitbake, its a big hack |
| 13:51.29 | mickeyl | hah |
| 13:51.32 | mickeyl | disagrees |
| 13:51.45 | starox | ronny: Why ? for me it's the best system I see. |
| 13:51.52 | DPThough1 | first time i looked at it id sruck me as very nice. But from thre much can go wrong to a really good build system |
| 13:51.57 | mickeyl | nasty boy. go back 6 years and use buildroot |
| 13:51.58 | mickeyl | :D |
| 13:52.00 | starox | I don't tried scratchbox yet ... |
| 13:52.13 | DPThough1 | But my standpoint is, there is no good build system period. |
| 13:52.24 | ronny | just cause there is no good system one shouldnt consider the least bad thing good |
| 13:52.45 | starox | have to use buildbot, thus loves bitabke :) |
| 13:53.10 | Dave | :P |
| 13:53.29 | Dave | haha |
| 13:53.43 | Dave | mickeyl, that's evil :P |
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| 13:54.41 | DPThough1 | what i don't like with bb is that it fetches sources from external sources. But i guess this depends on how you uses it. It can but i guess it does not need to be so. |
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| 13:57.53 | Dave | bah |
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| 13:58.34 | Torikun | Dave: !!! |
| 13:58.39 | Dave | Damn right! |
| 13:59.18 | Torikun | What's new on Moko |
| 13:59.31 | mickeyl | DPThough1: where should the sources come from? |
| 13:59.41 | mickeyl | feel free to download them by manually and stick them into the sources dir |
| 13:59.44 | mickeyl | no one stopping you :) |
| 14:00.58 | DPThough1 | we have a system where we have the source tgz and the build script in our cvs. This way we can allways build every version we ever had, and we are not limited to having internet while building. |
| 14:01.59 | mickeyl | right |
| 14:02.05 | mickeyl | no one stopping you from doing that w/ bitbake |
| 14:02.12 | DPThough1 | the original sources get deleted and moved i don't like to keep track of that |
| 14:02.16 | DPThough1 | mickeyl: exactly ;) |
| 14:02.55 | Dave | bitbake me some lunch |
| 14:03.08 | Gnutoo | hello, on 2008.8...is there something that i can use to set environnement variable when a shell starts? |
| 14:03.15 | Gnutoo | such as bashrc... |
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| 14:03.26 | Dave | yes |
| 14:03.54 | Gnutoo | Dave, what's the location of this file? |
| 14:04.07 | Dave | well, if you're using bash, then that works fine |
| 14:04.13 | Dave | otherwise just edit your /etc/profile file |
| 14:04.25 | Dave | I doubt your freerunner has multiple users anyway :P |
| 14:04.33 | Dave | so editing the global config is perfectly fine |
| 14:04.41 | Gnutoo | thanks... |
| 14:05.14 | Gnutoo | it's for keychain...because typing long ssh key password on the freerunner is time consuming |
| 14:07.28 | Dave | yeah that's dumb :) |
| 14:09.28 | *** join/#openmoko NineX (i=ninex@gentoo.netzone.kom.pl) |
| 14:10.15 | TAsn | does anyone know where i can change the fonts illume is using? |
| 14:10.52 | mickeyl | in its theme file |
| 14:11.18 | Wonka | hrm. no gpe-phonepanel in debian-armel :/ |
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| 14:15.10 | Dave | Wonka wonka wonka |
| 14:15.27 | Dave | Yes, burn the crappy fonts! |
| 14:15.36 | Torikun | Make a phone that works |
| 14:15.38 | Wonka | gpe phone edition looks very nice... |
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| 14:18.21 | mickeyl | ya |
| 14:18.26 | mickeyl | it had potential |
| 14:18.37 | mickeyl | unfortunately work on it stopped before it really could move |
| 14:19.37 | Dave | Alas. |
| 14:19.44 | Dave | Torikun, agreed! |
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| 14:32.44 | sevenhundred | hey, is the openmoko-fso*rootfs.jffs2.summary actually a .jffs2? that is, is it safe to flash to the freerunner as rootfs? |
| 14:33.21 | Tanuva | yes |
| 14:33.39 | sevenhundred | thanks, just wanted to make sure |
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| 14:34.14 | Tanuva | that summary somehow speeds up the mount time of jffs2 partitions according to google |
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| 14:34.48 | sevenhundred | oh? neat |
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| 14:37.48 | Gnutoo | Dave, /etc/profile is only called when i log from my laptop to the freerunner with ssh...but not when i run openmoko-terminal2 |
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| 14:39.05 | Wonka | matchbox-desktop is nice - but i want a way to get back to already running apps O.o |
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| 14:51.52 | Gnutoo | by the way the planet says that minimo has no ssl support but yesterday i found nothing in the bug tracking system...did i miss something? |
| 14:52.19 | TAsn | i fixed the fso theme though i suggest putting a utf8 font in the theme ;0 |
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| 14:55.13 | Gnutoo | by the way evince is quite fast on the freerunner but there is also another problem...i can't download pdf with minimo,openmoko-browser-2 and midori |
| 14:55.28 | Gnutoo | and i can't copy the address so i do it with wget... |
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| 14:59.59 | Gnutoo | what's the best hour(UTC time...i'll made the conversion) to ask question in this channel? because i had no answer on the second /etc/profile question,the 2 browser question(download pdf and ssl) |
| 15:04.09 | Tanuva | the evening (GMT+2 / MESZ) its quite crowded here |
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| 15:10.13 | Gnutoo | ok thanks...because sometimes there is nobody and sometimes it's crowded... |
| 15:10.19 | Gnutoo | i'm GMT+1 |
| 15:11.02 | Tanuva | half the year i'm gmt+1, too - depends if it's daylight savings time or not :D |
| 15:11.09 | Gnutoo | ok...lol |
| 15:12.16 | Gnutoo | for the broswer thing i think i will end up compiling firefox 3.0 with openembeedded...and adding add-ons for maximizing the screen size...like what they do on the eeepc |
| 15:13.07 | Tanuva | firefox3 runs really slow imho, thats no fun... |
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| 15:17.13 | Gnutoo | ok...so should i bugreport for the 3 browser? |
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| 15:19.37 | TAsn | damn, illume keyboard won't use utf chars without "" which means only with dic matching. |
| 15:19.40 | TAsn | which sucks ;\ |
| 15:19.49 | TAsn | i did fuzz 0 |
| 15:19.56 | TAsn | so it is usable but still. |
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| 15:28.15 | Bish | add bridge failed: Package not installed |
| 15:28.23 | Bish | does that mean that the bridging module is not in the kernel |
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| 16:22.41 | dolf1074 | someone who has knowledge about xul? Is there a possibility for reading the output of for example opkg list? How should I do that best? |
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| 16:43.29 | Gnutoo | does someone knows very well openmoko-terminal2...why doesn't it use .bashrc and .profile files? |
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| 16:48.47 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: Because you're not running bash as your shell |
| 16:49.07 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: If you execute bash once you get a term up, it will run your .bashrc |
| 16:49.21 | wurp2|working | I can't figure out how to change the shell in OM :-9 |
| 16:49.23 | Gnutoo | wurp2|working, how can i make bash executed by default? |
| 16:49.35 | wurp2|working | see above :-( |
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| 16:49.43 | Gnutoo | wurp2|working, ok...by the way it works in ssh ...only in ssh |
| 16:50.07 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: it starts in bash? |
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| 16:50.19 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: I think I had my ssh starting in bash for a while too |
| 16:50.21 | Gnutoo | wurp2|working, i think so... .bashrc and .profile are loaded |
| 16:50.26 | wurp2|working | I think because I set SHELL |
| 16:50.48 | wurp2|working | Normally I think .profile is run from /etc/profile |
| 16:50.50 | Gnutoo | # echo $SHELL => /bin/sh in ssh mode.... |
| 16:51.06 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: But it runs your .bashrc?!? |
| 16:51.15 | Gnutoo | yes |
| 16:51.30 | Gnutoo | i've keychain in my bashrc and it is run... |
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| 16:53.23 | Gnutoo | i will change my shell in /etc/passwd |
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| 16:54.01 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: That is weird. I don't know why .bashrc would be run by ssh if your shell is /bin/sh |
| 16:54.12 | wurp2|working | Do you run .bashrc from your .profile? |
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| 16:55.23 | Gnutoo | wurp2|working, yes |
| 16:56.22 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: That's probably why it runs in ssh |
| 16:56.48 | wurp2|working | Normally you shouldn't have to call your .shellrc from .profile, iirc |
| 16:57.28 | Gnutoo | wurp2|working, i just copied /etc/skel and modified bashrc... |
| 16:57.43 | Gnutoo | s/skel/skel content/ |
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| 17:00.15 | sevenhundred | argh, my micro sd card! |
| 17:00.29 | Gnutoo | i've changed the shell to bash and openmoko-terminal2 doesn't work anymore... |
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| 17:02.22 | sevenhundred | phew, found it |
| 17:03.02 | *** join/#openmoko CIA-22 (n=CIA@208.69.182.149) |
| 17:03.19 | *** join/#openmoko ritz (n=ritesh@nat/redhat-in/x-9119273feaecc8bd) |
| 17:05.20 | bipak_ | hmm |
| 17:05.51 | bipak_ | just installed openmoko-browser2 with on my fresh 2008.8 but enlightenment fails to start it |
| 17:06.05 | bipak_ | "enlightenment was unable to run the application: openmoko-browser2" |
| 17:06.18 | bipak_ | 2008.8-update |
| 17:06.42 | bipak_ | installed it with opkg and tried to start it from the home screen |
| 17:06.45 | bipak_ | any idea? |
| 17:08.12 | *** join/#openmoko sudharsh_ (n=sudharsh@59.92.96.178) |
| 17:08.20 | *** join/#openmoko rddDavid51 (n=roudoudo@gar31-1-82-224-8-235.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 17:10.22 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 17:11.10 | *** join/#openmoko giantHogweed (n=Frank@Pab9e.p.pppool.de) |
| 17:11.13 | jones | try from the cci |
| 17:11.20 | jones | bipak, cli |
| 17:11.33 | *** join/#openmoko bentob0x (n=laurent@ip-213-49-80-173.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 17:11.34 | *** join/#openmoko bipak (n=bip@p57B8608C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:12.08 | *** join/#openmoko bricode (n=bricode@200.122.185.24) |
| 17:13.44 | *** join/#openmoko HauDyr (n=kim@knet-gip124.prod.bolignet.dk) |
| 17:15.48 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: awesome |
| 17:16.06 | sevenhundred | am I supposed to be able to access the memory card in fso? |
| 17:17.29 | *** join/#openmoko Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) |
| 17:18.48 | Dave | Gnutoo: awesome |
| 17:19.01 | Dave | So even still it seems like 2008.8 is an abysmal failure |
| 17:19.02 | Dave | :) |
| 17:19.32 | Dave | mwester, was it you who discovered or analyzed the periodic behavior of the gsm dropping/deregistration? |
| 17:19.56 | *** join/#openmoko surf2me (n=surfer@unixboard/users/surf2me) |
| 17:19.58 | bricode | Dave: Good to see you're still maintaining your positive outlook :) |
| 17:20.40 | *** join/#openmoko _Tom (n=user@c-24-99-171-29.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 17:21.11 | wurp2|working | sevenhundred: hell yes |
| 17:21.30 | *** part/#openmoko _Tom (n=user@c-24-99-171-29.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 17:21.44 | sevenhundred | hmmm |
| 17:22.06 | wurp2|working | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:22.22 | wurp2|working | Not sure if it's mounted at /media/card, although I would think so |
| 17:22.50 | Tanuva | the first partition gets mounted by qtopia on /media/card |
| 17:23.05 | Tanuva | the next Xth one on /media/mmcblk0pX |
| 17:23.51 | sevenhundred | oh, /media? lol, I thought it was /dev |
| 17:23.53 | wurp2|working | Tanuva: do you know if there's a graphical indication of whether Qtopia is fast or slow charging? |
| 17:24.57 | wurp2|working | sevenhundred: Yeah, it felt wrong to type /media, but I thought that's what I've been seeing... I'm not 100% sure, but I believe it's /media. |
| 17:25.14 | Dave | /dev/wurp2 |
| 17:25.42 | Dave | bricode, I have never waivered in that respect :) |
| 17:25.59 | bricode | Dave: At least you're consistent :) |
| 17:26.10 | *** join/#openmoko marcels (n=marcel@mstoop.xs4all.nl) |
| 17:26.14 | sevenhundred | wurp2, I\ll check it out |
| 17:26.17 | Dave | That's definitely got to count for something :D |
| 17:26.29 | zogg_ | so, how do i read/write sms through command line on ASU? |
| 17:26.34 | Dave | bricode, I find it amusing how jadams's question from over a month ago is still quite pertinent. |
| 17:26.52 | bricode | Dave: I'm not familiar with the initial question... |
| 17:27.05 | Dave | <jadams_> Is 2008.8 ready for the neo yet? |
| 17:27.31 | wurp2|working | zogg_: Can you even do that? It would be similar to how you do it on qtopia, I'd think, if that's possible |
| 17:27.50 | Dave | He was merely asking a noobish question but hit at the heart of the fundamental issue we seem to be struggling with here each every day. |
| 17:27.55 | wurp2|working | Yeah, I'm running qtopia now :-/ |
| 17:27.57 | Dave | When will 2008.8 support the freerunner? :P |
| 17:28.07 | Dave | wurp - icky - when did that happen? |
| 17:28.12 | wurp2|working | Last weekend |
| 17:28.20 | Dave | Any particular reason? |
| 17:28.24 | wurp2|working | It's actually very nice in most respects |
| 17:28.30 | wurp2|working | I can consistently get & make phone calls :-) |
| 17:28.36 | wurp2|working | ^^ reason ^^ |
| 17:28.38 | Dave | yeah yeah |
| 17:28.47 | Dave | but can they hear you? :P |
| 17:28.49 | Dave | and vice versa |
| 17:28.52 | wurp2|working | I don't like how it deals with charging |
| 17:28.58 | zogg_ | wurp2|working, dunno, thats why im asking. Someone mentioned its possible using Python tho |
| 17:28.59 | Dave | yeah, it's pretty dumb |
| 17:29.03 | wurp2|working | Yeah, not sure about echo, but we def can hear one another |
| 17:29.06 | Dave | I just unplugged mine |
| 17:29.12 | *** join/#openmoko torero (n=deepsigh@ti0034a380-dhcp0755.bb.online.no) |
| 17:29.14 | Dave | my qtopia freerunner |
| 17:29.32 | Dave | because it lacks charge capacity reporting of any practical sort |
| 17:29.34 | *** join/#openmoko andrunko (n=andrunko@200.184.118.132) |
| 17:29.34 | Dave | stupid thing |
| 17:29.40 | wurp2|working | Other than charging, I like it pretty well |
| 17:29.52 | Dave | Yeha |
| 17:29.56 | Dave | I'd use it if it had applications. |
| 17:30.03 | bipak | how can i deactivate the stupid auto completion of the 2008.8 keyboard? |
| 17:30.10 | Dave | haha |
| 17:30.17 | *** join/#openmoko vaiursch (n=erwin@vpn-global-dhcp3-047.ethz.ch) |
| 17:30.19 | wurp2|working | If I can get a flavor of my charge app working on it, I'll be happy. Oh, and if I can find a gps app |
| 17:30.25 | Dave | predictive text has struck again! |
| 17:30.36 | wurp2|working | bipak: Maybe if you empty out the dictionary file... |
| 17:30.39 | Dave | wurp2, yeah, that seems to be a critical aspect of qtopia use :) |
| 17:30.50 | Dave | Wow, that's pretty sad. |
| 17:30.50 | bipak | Dave: .. :) |
| 17:30.56 | bipak | im not able to type "www" |
| 17:31.02 | Dave | haha |
| 17:31.11 | wurp2|working | bipak: If it's just a few words, you could add them to the dictionary |
| 17:31.13 | slaxxer | damnit man |
| 17:31.23 | Dave | slaxxin! |
| 17:31.25 | bipak | wurp2|working: hmm ok. if that is the way it goes... |
| 17:31.32 | slaxxer | wats up |
| 17:31.57 | slaxxer | any new distros to try today |
| 17:32.01 | Dave | haha |
| 17:32.03 | wurp2|working | hah |
| 17:32.04 | Dave | oh man |
| 17:32.17 | wurp2|working | anyone doing debian + fso ms3? |
| 17:32.20 | *** join/#openmoko ajbrun (n=ajbrun@host81-159-133-95.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) |
| 17:32.28 | slaxxer | im nubulard to FDOM |
| 17:32.32 | Dave | It's pretty sad how valid some of these noobly questions really are ;) |
| 17:32.43 | Dave | wurp, that sounds kinky :P |
| 17:32.59 | wurp2|working | that sounds nice... I woulda put it on last weekend if I'd been able to get an 8 gb microsd |
| 17:33.00 | Dave | also sounds like megafail |
| 17:33.06 | Dave | aw |
| 17:33.07 | slaxxer | its the real stuff those newb questions |
| 17:33.11 | Dave | you should have one! |
| 17:33.26 | slaxxer | im shopping too |
| 17:33.44 | slaxxer | i need about 4 of the 4 gig ones |
| 17:33.45 | wurp2|working | slaxxer: well, we have a radio shack gift card to burn up |
| 17:34.05 | wurp2|working | According to their web site, they have 8gb for $40, which is only $10 more than I would pay somewhere else |
| 17:34.12 | slaxxer | ahh i think theres better fish to fry |
| 17:34.28 | wurp2|working | And like I say, we have this gift card to use up. But the local store had nothing over 2gb :-/ |
| 17:34.37 | Dave | eww |
| 17:35.07 | Dave | Costco ftw |
| 17:35.07 | wurp2|working | yeah, and one of those was $40! nimrods. |
| 17:35.07 | slaxxer | walmarts 4 gig was 25 bucks pfft |
| 17:35.07 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=rudi@dsbg-4db5eb7f.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 17:35.10 | wurp2|working | slaxxer: you can get 8gb online for $30 |
| 17:36.11 | Dave | I'll take a dozen! |
| 17:36.29 | IXian-probe | Hi, I need some pointer for programming a application in python for the freerunner. In short, wich API's do I need to handle if I wish to grab touchscreen raw-input and output data as a keyboard in console and/or X? |
| 17:37.43 | *** join/#openmoko fredrin (n=workingn@17-210-231-201.fibertel.com.ar) |
| 17:38.30 | slaxxer | http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-microSDHC-Card-SDSDQ-8192-Package/dp/B0012Y2LLE |
| 17:39.22 | slaxxer | i think i need 4 4gig ones instead |
| 17:39.42 | TAsn | i think i need money, and then i will buy a 32gb one :)))) |
| 17:39.49 | TAsn | soo cool. |
| 17:40.33 | Dave | SSD? |
| 17:40.43 | slaxxer | http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012Y2LLE?smid=A2BYVMH7NSQ63F&tag=shopzilla_rev_1356-20&linkCode=asn |
| 17:41.06 | Dave | slaxxin spam |
| 17:41.18 | sevenhundred | can\t wait until they start selling 1 tb micro sd's |
| 17:41.22 | slaxxer | wow its a class 2 |
| 17:41.39 | Dave | ooh la la |
| 17:41.50 | Dave | sevenhundred, why would anyone want that? |
| 17:41.53 | *** join/#openmoko snp (n=snp@port-213-148-149-234.static.qsc.de) |
| 17:41.56 | Dave | it's totally impractical. |
| 17:42.09 | Tanuva | would be happy with 32gig |
| 17:42.15 | sevenhundred | 128Kb should be enough for anyone! |
| 17:42.22 | Dave | :D |
| 17:42.27 | Dave | That's what the phone makers think! |
| 17:42.38 | *** join/#openmoko hil__ (n=hilbert@116.71.214.48) |
| 17:42.39 | snp | who's the one that asked me about MacOS yesterday? |
| 17:42.45 | *** part/#openmoko hil__ (n=hilbert@116.71.214.48) |
| 17:42.48 | *** join/#openmoko iormz_ (n=oramirez@189.153.196.149) |
| 17:42.53 | sevenhundred | anyway, everyone knows bigger is better |
| 17:43.11 | Tanuva | sevenhundred: 5! |
| 17:43.11 | IXian-probe | Dave: CISC Uber alles ^_^ |
| 17:43.27 | Tm_T | sevenhundred: especially when talking about loads |
| 17:43.28 | slaxxer | gsm is sucking my battery dry reregistering |
| 17:43.56 | Dave | That's some RISCy business :p |
| 17:44.29 | IXian-probe | Dave: ... I'd slap you with a trout if it was the first of april ^_^ |
| 17:45.01 | *** join/#openmoko Tig|_ (n=tigger@82.153.215.237) |
| 17:45.01 | sevenhundred | anyway, my old 512 or whatever comes with the freerunner isn't in /media either! :( |
| 17:45.15 | sevenhundred | there's just the empty directories |
| 17:45.20 | TAsn | sevenhundred, weird. |
| 17:45.21 | Dave | :D |
| 17:45.29 | slaxxer | idk |
| 17:45.42 | TAsn | mount /dev/mmc<tab> /media/card ? ;0 |
| 17:46.08 | Dave | ixian-probe, bare hyggeli ;p |
| 17:46.31 | *** join/#openmoko Fossi (n=fossi@e182067161.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 17:46.53 | sevenhundred | TAsn: no mmc* there |
| 17:47.05 | Dave | 700: failure |
| 17:47.08 | TAsn | weird. |
| 17:47.11 | IXian-probe | Dave: Velbekomme ^_^ |
| 17:47.23 | sevenhundred | not even an epic fail :( |
| 17:47.24 | TAsn | mm something else maybe? |
| 17:47.27 | TAsn | m<tab>? |
| 17:47.52 | *** join/#openmoko fobos (n=fobos@78.90.88.244) |
| 17:47.55 | Dave | du er kul :P |
| 17:47.56 | sevenhundred | there's mtd's? |
| 17:48.00 | TAsn | no |
| 17:48.03 | TAsn | mtb is flash |
| 17:48.05 | Dave | mtd's? |
| 17:48.06 | TAsn | anything else? |
| 17:48.08 | Dave | bbq's? |
| 17:48.13 | Dave | choxes? |
| 17:48.14 | TAsn | mtd* |
| 17:48.20 | *** join/#openmoko jomat_ (n=jomat@p5496536B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:48.29 | IXian-probe | Anyhow, I'm still i need of a wise all knowing Python & Openmoko API Guru to point me at the right API's needed to grab input from the touchscreen and send output as a keyboard in console and/or X. |
| 17:48.50 | IXian-probe | Dave: Of course I'm Cool ^_^ |
| 17:48.58 | TAsn | sevenhundred, i think you should take the mmc out of the box and put it in it's slot behind the sim ;] |
| 17:48.59 | sevenhundred | TAsn: there's just the usual gunk other than that :/ |
| 17:49.02 | TAsn | IXian-probe, sec |
| 17:49.08 | *** join/#openmoko mazzen (n=mortel@u30-237.dsl.vianetworks.de) |
| 17:49.15 | *** join/#openmoko fsteinel (n=fsteinel@pD9FBC023.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:49.20 | sevenhundred | TAsn, what, it has to be IN the slot? |
| 17:49.21 | TAsn | IXian-probe, fso? |
| 17:49.24 | Wonka | IXian-probe: read the matchbox-keyboard sources? |
| 17:49.27 | IXian-probe | TAsn: yes please. |
| 17:49.30 | TAsn | sevenhundred, yeah, ;0 |
| 17:49.31 | sevenhundred | :p |
| 17:49.41 | Dave | scary |
| 17:49.51 | TAsn | IXian-probe, http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=specs.git;a=blob_plain;f=html/index.html;hb=HEAD |
| 17:49.59 | TAsn | i think you are looking for .input |
| 17:50.01 | IXian-probe | Wonka: nope, I'm _very_ fresh and I just need some pointers no stuff to read up. Like for example matchbox-keyboard sorces ^_^ |
| 17:50.04 | TAsn | anyhow this is a useful place. |
| 17:50.17 | *** join/#openmoko almien (n=OJW@87-194-198-122.bethere.co.uk) |
| 17:50.50 | almien | hi. on 2008.8/neo when it suspends after 30 seconds, how do you wake it up? |
| 17:51.05 | snp | almien: try pressing power button.... |
| 17:51.11 | TAsn | and to send as keyboard, my best guess is making a fpipe and telling x its a keyboard and emulating a keyboard, i don't know anything else, i guess matchbox keyboard sources are the best solution. |
| 17:51.14 | IXian-probe | TAsn: thanks.. I've bookmarked it. ^_^ |
| 17:51.18 | almien | snp: for how long |
| 17:51.29 | sevenhundred | someone must've hacked my sd card. It's the only conclusion! |
| 17:51.30 | snp | almien: well try holding it until it starts |
| 17:51.30 | almien | pressing it once does nothing |
| 17:51.31 | TAsn | IXian-probe, hehe same here :) |
| 17:51.40 | IXian-probe | Wonka: thanks for the tip |
| 17:51.45 | Dave | probulate! |
| 17:51.59 | *** join/#openmoko drath (n=vmaster@p5B07E907.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:52.01 | TAsn | sevenhundred, that's probably it... ;0 |
| 17:52.13 | CIA-22 | openmoko: 03julian_chu 07org.openmoko.dev * r5f313819ac9c 10/ (5 files in 3 dirs): [meta-toolchain] Abstract using package. |
| 17:52.14 | CIA-22 | openmoko: 03julian_chu 07org.openmoko.dev * r5198c3f21d07 10/packages/ (meta/meta-toolchain.bb tasks/task-sdk-host.bb): [meta-toolchain] Add libtool-sdk to openmoko-toolchain-host |
| 17:52.33 | Dave | pykuk |
| 17:53.30 | almien | snp: ok so if 2008.8 never wakes up after holding the power button then there's a problem with the OS/phone then? |
| 17:53.48 | snp | almien: did you boot into NAND after flashing? |
| 17:54.07 | *** join/#openmoko |FiLiP| (n=Filip@213.219.172.68.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net) |
| 17:54.08 | almien | no it was running the OS before it went dark |
| 17:54.11 | snp | almien: hold power button down, then press aux and holding them until it boots the boot loader |
| 17:54.31 | snp | almien: I had problems with my last install, but NAND boot always started |
| 17:54.41 | Dave | almien, it probably tried to sleep |
| 17:54.44 | Dave | and then never wakes up |
| 17:54.48 | Dave | as suspend never works |
| 17:55.14 | snp | Dave: I got suspend working on 2008.8 on mine, at least that what it seemed to do. |
| 17:55.16 | Dave | heh, I guess that may be one more reason to use the qtopia, wurp ;p |
| 17:55.27 | Dave | snp, I doubt it works as intended, however. |
| 17:55.30 | wurp2|working | Dave: Suspend appears to be working on Qtopia 4.3.2 :-) |
| 17:55.37 | snp | Dave: I'm flashing mine to the daily 2008.8 build from a qtopia :) |
| 17:55.38 | Dave | yeah yeah |
| 17:55.45 | Dave | heh |
| 17:55.51 | Dave | how's that going for you? |
| 17:55.58 | Dave | Did qtopia get boring? :P |
| 17:56.12 | snp | just flashed it from Mac, so I hope I can boot now :) |
| 17:56.22 | snp | nah, just wanted to show my co workers qtopia here |
| 17:56.28 | CIA-22 | openmoko: 03julian_chu 07org.openmoko.dev * r852ad9bc08d7 10/packages/opkg/opkg-sdk_svn.bb: [opkg-sdk] Fix wrong opkglibdir |
| 17:56.28 | CIA-22 | openmoko: 03julian_chu 07org.openmoko.dev * r09f9df49409d 10/packages/meta/meta-toolchain-openmoko.bb: [meta-toolchain] Add POPULATE_SDK_EXTRA_TASK |
| 17:56.33 | snp | brb.. |
| 17:57.05 | *** join/#openmoko ken_ (n=ken@gw.ptr-80-238-190-65.customer.ch.netstream.com) |
| 17:57.05 | Dave | show them how pretty it was...? |
| 17:57.08 | Dave | pretty sucky! ;D |
| 17:57.49 | snp | nah, how little memory you can squeeze in Linux distribution |
| 17:57.54 | almien | ok, so back to qtopia then |
| 17:58.15 | snp | since it's usefull for our business |
| 17:58.54 | lindi- | snp: very little if you really need it |
| 17:59.11 | Dave | haha |
| 17:59.17 | Dave | snp, qtopia? |
| 17:59.39 | snp | lindi-: yes but we need an X server running and gtk and a gecko browser. So tomorrow I'm showing Om2008.8 :) |
| 17:59.39 | Dave | might be productive, anyway, because you can't do anything eles on it! |
| 17:59.40 | Dave | :p |
| 18:00.06 | snp | Dave: no not really but as German ppl I thought I might show them a qt based product first :P |
| 18:00.17 | Dave | haha, wtf? |
| 18:00.24 | Dave | damn germans |
| 18:00.51 | Dave | Krazy Deutschen and their KDE :P |
| 18:01.09 | lindi- | snp: ok those requirements make it quite different |
| 18:01.13 | snp | :P |
| 18:01.15 | Dave | hahahahaha oh god yeah |
| 18:01.30 | almien | so if going to sleep mode kills 2008.8, it might be a good idea to disable the "power button = sleep mode" feature? |
| 18:01.35 | Dave | Joerg, so I discovered that taking my Freerunner to my Electronics laboratory today, wasn't such a good idea :P |
| 18:01.53 | Dave | Equipment other people's cellphones were poppin', cracklin', and all kinds of fun. |
| 18:02.10 | Dave | It's like, OOH I just got a message! and everything goes crazy around the room :P |
| 18:02.17 | Dave | hahah, how covert :p |
| 18:02.37 | *** join/#openmoko LuYu (n=whatever@118-168-235-228.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 18:03.55 | snp | worked perfectly fine to flash from Mac, just a bit tricky though, but should I commit my howto on the wiki? |
| 18:04.34 | Tig|_ | Dave: I get that kind of interference with all mobile phones not just the FR |
| 18:04.36 | wurp2|working | Dave: the FR was RF interfering with other cell phones? |
| 18:04.58 | Tig|_ | wait, other phones?? |
| 18:06.22 | Dave | wurp, yep |
| 18:06.37 | Dave | the guy's phone next to me crackled, it was freaky |
| 18:06.52 | Dave | Tig, sucky |
| 18:06.55 | wurp2|working | :-( |
| 18:07.12 | Dave | Wurp Yeah, well, it's not like I'm surprised. |
| 18:07.21 | wurp2|working | I am |
| 18:07.24 | Tig|_ | that is really odd, I thought all the output stuff was locked away and was tested and approved |
| 18:07.29 | Dave | We all knew the interference problem was never solved. |
| 18:07.50 | wurp2|working | But I don't do much hw stuff. I know the physics, but have no experience with engineering other than hacking hw to do what I want |
| 18:07.51 | Dave | Woo, Go TI! |
| 18:08.11 | wurp2|working | I would have thought they would have trouble getting it approved for sale without solving such problems |
| 18:08.15 | Dave | wurp, haha yeah, too bad it doesn't work similarly with our women :P |
| 18:08.24 | wurp2|working | :-) |
| 18:08.49 | Tig|_ | wurp2|working: that is what I would have thought as it has to pass all kinds of EM tests |
| 18:09.03 | Dave | Tig, dude... it came from teh cn! |
| 18:09.13 | bipak | "Then switch keyboard from "None" to "Default" in Illume's preferences. " i feeld kinda noobish.. but, where are the preferences? |
| 18:09.21 | Dave | Ten year old kids in a wooden shack aren't necessarily concerned with all that. |
| 18:09.25 | Tig|_ | unless it is the chipset which gets the approval and then they can boilerplate it onto any hw using it |
| 18:09.41 | Dave | yeah I think that's pretty much how it went |
| 18:10.04 | Tig|_ | Dave: yeah but it is FIC that are actually building them and they should know how to do this shit by now |
| 18:10.16 | *** join/#openmoko KenSentMe (n=KenSentM@ip-145-93-88-18.fontys.nl) |
| 18:10.23 | Dave | haha |
| 18:10.25 | Dave | you'd think so! |
| 18:10.38 | Dave | Why do you think they had a falling out with FIC? :P |
| 18:10.56 | Dave | haha, more like WIC |
| 18:11.01 | Dave | Worst International Computar |
| 18:11.08 | *** join/#openmoko snp (n=snp@port-213-148-149-234.static.qsc.de) |
| 18:11.21 | Tig|_ | have they? not been following things over the last few days, bought a canoe and have been preoccupied :) |
| 18:11.39 | Dave | yeah, I heard that the production of the freerunner was OM had a falling out with FIC |
| 18:11.44 | Dave | that's why they're name is not on it |
| 18:11.55 | Tig|_ | ah |
| 18:11.59 | Dave | (as opposed to the GTA01) |
| 18:12.08 | Tig|_ | the Neos did have it on the back iirc |
| 18:12.14 | Tig|_ | or some of the mockups did |
| 18:12.25 | Tig|_ | def seen pictures with FIC on them |
| 18:12.26 | Dave | they had it on the front |
| 18:12.34 | Dave | FIC |
| 18:12.49 | Tig|_ | hmm |
| 18:13.03 | Dave | Fucking Inferior Computing |
| 18:13.12 | Dave | Anyhoo, the freerunner is awesome |
| 18:13.18 | Dave | even if it destroys CRT monitors :P |
| 18:13.25 | Tig|_ | does anyone know the state of the SHR atm, I notice there are build instructions for it now |
| 18:13.42 | Tig|_ | Dave: CRTs are for dinosaurs and me :) |
| 18:13.59 | Fossi | check mailling list and wiki? :) |
| 18:14.02 | Tig|_ | hugs biggassed 21 inch monster that weighs 3 tons |
| 18:14.11 | bipak | can anyone tell me, how i can get to the illume config window? |
| 18:14.22 | Gnutoo | Dave, it was the terminal emulator...with vte it works... |
| 18:14.36 | Tig|_ | Fossi: well it is not on the wiki page and Community mailing list has turned into a shambles for finding information on it |
| 18:14.37 | *** join/#openmoko Flyser (n=flyser@dialin-145-254-188-220.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 18:16.10 | *** join/#openmoko peepsalot (n=peepsalo@rrcs-97-77-8-59.sw.biz.rr.com) |
| 18:16.35 | slaxxer | bipac u have 2008.8om? |
| 18:17.24 | slaxxer | did u use the installer to install it? |
| 18:17.32 | *** join/#openmoko |FiLiP| (n=Filip@213.219.172.68.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net) |
| 18:17.33 | slaxxer | did u reboot? |
| 18:17.39 | bipak | slaxxer: yes, no, no |
| 18:18.01 | slaxxer | did u restart x?/ |
| 18:18.06 | bipak | yes :) |
| 18:18.19 | Fossi | Tig|_: there's an shr mailinglist |
| 18:18.21 | *** join/#openmoko l403 (n=l@85.132.159.231) |
| 18:18.25 | bipak | but haven't really installed it.. its was there... |
| 18:18.39 | bipak | thats what i think.. |
| 18:18.40 | Tig|_ | Fossi: there is/ |
| 18:18.41 | Tig|_ | ? |
| 18:18.49 | slaxxer | well mine didnt show up untill reboot although i didnt restartx |
| 18:18.49 | wurp2|working | Tig|_: medium sucky, at the moment |
| 18:18.50 | Tig|_ | I did not see it on the wiki |
| 18:18.52 | bipak | opkg list_installed|grep illumes, lists all packages |
| 18:19.07 | wurp2|working | Tig|_: it's the ML from the shr.projects.om.org site |
| 18:19.10 | Tig|_ | Fossi: I will hunti it down |
| 18:19.14 | Tig|_ | :) |
| 18:19.30 | wurp2|working | Tig|_: Right now you can't dial initiate a call :-( |
| 18:19.33 | slaxxer | so theres no wrench icon in the upper menu? |
| 18:19.33 | Tig|_ | Got FSO MS3 on atm and without a feed it is not useful to me |
| 18:19.52 | wurp2|working | Tig|_: how's sms, calls, suspend/resume on MS3? |
| 18:19.54 | Fossi | wurp2|working: well, when has shr been less sucky? ;) |
| 18:19.59 | Tig|_ | wurp2|working: well atm I am not using it for calls :) |
| 18:20.00 | wurp2|working | Fossi: never |
| 18:20.05 | Fossi | see? ;) |
| 18:20.11 | bipak | slaxxer: nope |
| 18:20.18 | wurp2|working | it's getting better all the time |
| 18:20.19 | Fossi | that's the good thing with unfinished software |
| 18:20.29 | wurp2|working | for which I can take no credit; I do basically nothing on it :-( |
| 18:20.46 | Fossi | at least it's prolly release alongside dnf. maybe even a little before that |
| 18:20.58 | wurp2|working | aleix and quick are the guys now |
| 18:21.00 | Tig|_ | wurp2|working: calls seem ok, text comethrough but not always listed but that seems to be more of a zhone thing |
| 18:21.12 | Fossi | my moko is still broken and i still didn't get around sending it in |
| 18:21.27 | wurp2|working | dnf? |
| 18:21.35 | bipak | slaxxer: i wanted another keyboard an followed these instructions http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Illume#Virtual_Keyboard |
| 18:21.38 | Fossi | but i have to one of these days, because my shitty windows mobile htc phone broke |
| 18:21.39 | Tig|_ | I need to test suspend resume more as I have not played enough with it to tell you if it is working |
| 18:21.44 | Fossi | duke nukem forever ;) |
| 18:22.08 | bipak | slaxxer: but i dont know how the access the prefereces of illume.. probably through the wrench icon.. but there isn't one |
| 18:22.45 | slaxxer | did u install an image or upgrade to this? |
| 18:22.53 | snp | this Finger keyboard I see as a top download, what is the difference compared to Om2008.8 one? |
| 18:23.01 | snp | or should I say qtopia keyboard.. |
| 18:23.01 | bipak | i installed om2008.8-update on my sd card |
| 18:23.23 | bipak | downloaded and decompressed it on the card |
| 18:23.26 | *** join/#openmoko LetoTo2 (n=paul@76-10-173-74.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 18:23.27 | wurp2|working | Fossi: hah |
| 18:24.01 | slaxxer | and a matching kernel to? |
| 18:24.07 | bipak | sure |
| 18:24.11 | bipak | from the same directory |
| 18:24.28 | slaxxer | try a reboot |
| 18:24.46 | bipak | hmm, ok |
| 18:25.01 | *** join/#openmoko spydon (n=spydon@h254n1c1o1036.bredband.skanova.com) |
| 18:26.08 | slaxxer | u didnt use wireless to download it did u? |
| 18:26.30 | *** join/#openmoko Blastur (n=kebab@kr-lun-168-149-233-83.3.cust.bredband2.com) |
| 18:26.33 | *** join/#openmoko Raigedas (n=OpenSour@hst-241-40.splius.lt) |
| 18:26.41 | slaxxer | an of course u didnt check the md5sums correct? |
| 18:27.20 | bipak | the whole 2008.8 dist? |
| 18:27.32 | bipak | no downloaded it via cable |
| 18:27.40 | Dave | :P |
| 18:28.07 | slaxxer | well its a good idea to check an image before installing it |
| 18:28.39 | Dave | omgwtfrootkits |
| 18:28.43 | *** join/#openmoko ChaosEagle (n=eagle@p54BD0FFD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:28.50 | slaxxer | WHERE |
| 18:28.56 | Dave | >:) |
| 18:28.57 | ChaosEagle | hi everyone :) |
| 18:29.05 | slaxxer | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:29.06 | Dave | Die Deutschen! |
| 18:29.14 | ChaosEagle | Dave: Wo? ;) |
| 18:29.18 | Dave | hides |
| 18:29.24 | Tig|_ | Dave: it would be a shite cracker who needed to rootkit a device that ships running as root without a password |
| 18:29.30 | slaxxer | i saw a file on my freerunner that looked odd |
| 18:29.34 | Dave | hahahaha |
| 18:29.37 | Dave | Awesome! |
| 18:29.40 | snp | Anyone using Raster's keyboard? |
| 18:29.41 | Dave | Tig, we totally need to do it :P |
| 18:29.59 | Dave | I wonder if anyone has a page dedicated to how many security vulnerabilities the freerunner has :P |
| 18:30.15 | slaxxer | it is a big page |
| 18:30.31 | ChaosEagle | Can anyone help me obtaining a uboot-shell from NAND? It works from NOR... -.- |
| 18:30.49 | Dave | okay |
| 18:31.00 | Dave | boot it with the button order reversed as indicated on the freerunner wiki |
| 18:31.05 | *** join/#openmoko mattl (n=mattl@fsf/staff/mattl) |
| 18:31.07 | ChaosEagle | check |
| 18:31.22 | Tig|_ | Dave: "I'm in your phonez installing a, wait are the feeds down for everyone or just me? shit the battery is nearly gone can someone plug me in??!?" |
| 18:31.24 | ChaosEagle | Problem is, it doesn't get detected as an ACM-device that way :( |
| 18:31.36 | slaxxer | lets see they got your address root with no password |
| 18:33.16 | Tig|_ | slaxxer: actually the keyboard does punt you towards crap passwords.... you are not going to use @r$3b@D9erz as a password as it will take you years to use on screen |
| 18:33.23 | ChaosEagle | any ideas anyone? Am I hitting a known bug in uboot, maybe? |
| 18:34.02 | Tig|_ | ChaosEagle: no idea here I am afraid |
| 18:34.08 | ChaosEagle | hmm... |
| 18:34.16 | ChaosEagle | too bad, but thanks anyway |
| 18:34.26 | *** join/#openmoko ptitjes (n=didier@93.2.7.240) |
| 18:34.37 | Tig|_ | stick around someone may suddenly chime in with an answer |
| 18:34.50 | ChaosEagle | is there another way to edit the menu entries for uboot, without obtaining a prompt? |
| 18:35.05 | Tig|_ | beyond me I am afraid |
| 18:35.15 | ChaosEagle | k, thx anyway :) |
| 18:35.33 | Tig|_ | what you might need is for mickey|dinner to finish his lunch and leap in here like a superhero :) |
| 18:35.37 | snp | midori was really fast, but an interface for touch devices would be nice ;) |
| 18:35.49 | ChaosEagle | hehe, okay, will do |
| 18:35.59 | ChaosEagle | enjoy your meal @mickey|dinner btw :D |
| 18:36.32 | sevenhundred | ChaosEagle, you're supposed to be able to by downloading the environment to your comp, editing it there with a special program and upload it again |
| 18:36.41 | sevenhundred | unless I misunderstood your question |
| 18:36.46 | ChaosEagle | oh, okay - it's in the wiki, I suppose? |
| 18:37.13 | ChaosEagle | no, I don't think you did. I want to edit my uboot (NAND) menu entries so I can boot from my ext2-formatted SD-Card |
| 18:37.59 | Gnutoo | hello, how do i make my own icons entries on the desktop in 2008.8? i need a vte icon... |
| 18:38.11 | sevenhundred | http://wiki.debian.org/DebianOnFreeRunner it's described here |
| 18:38.16 | sevenhundred | just what you're looking for |
| 18:38.25 | sevenhundred | chaoseagle |
| 18:38.31 | ChaosEagle | thx :) |
| 18:38.46 | Dave | apt summon mwester |
| 18:38.46 | apt | apt takes out 20 clean, identical-looking phones, some extra hands, and pretends to be a telemarketer for a large corporation, so he gets delivered a phonelist containing mwester's coordinates |
| 18:40.11 | Tig|_ | -,- iirc |
| 18:40.16 | Tig|_ | maybe not |
| 18:40.49 | sevenhundred | no problem :) |
| 18:41.37 | *** join/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@150-219.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 18:41.55 | *** join/#openmoko renato_ (n=renato@200.184.118.132) |
| 18:42.36 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Looks useful, thanks a lot |
| 18:42.49 | *** part/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@150-219.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 18:43.01 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Did you use it yourself? It should boot any image from an ext2-partition on the card, not just debian, right? |
| 18:43.53 | sevenhundred | when I used it, I kinda departed from the instructions and ended up with an unusable phone :p |
| 18:44.20 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: *laughs* okay, but you managed to fix it? |
| 18:44.48 | sevenhundred | so, um, follow the instructions :) yup, I fixed it after some time |
| 18:44.58 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Okay, thanks for the warning |
| 18:45.11 | *** join/#openmoko batti (n=batti@p5B1499C1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:45.33 | *** join/#openmoko mhiku (n=mhiku@203.177.57.170) |
| 18:45.55 | sevenhundred | just tell me if you manage to bork it up like I did :) |
| 18:46.58 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Not yet, I have one more question :D |
| 18:47.40 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: looking at the script, it says "root=/dev/mmcblk0p2" -> that means the rootfs is on the 2nd partition, right? |
| 18:48.08 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: So should I change it to /dev/mmcblk0p1 for me, where I have only a single (first) ext2 partition on the card? |
| 18:49.23 | sevenhundred | can't say for certain, actually. It sounds reasonable, but I really don;t know :/ |
| 18:49.54 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Okay, I guess I'll try that, then ^^ |
| 18:50.03 | *** join/#openmoko hb9egm (n=bram@cl-103.zrh-01.ch.sixxs.net) |
| 18:50.09 | Dave | I can just picture it in a counterstrike like listing |
| 18:50.37 | Dave | Chocky freerunner Dave |
| 18:50.47 | sevenhundred | chaoseagle: tell us how it went! sounds thrilling :D |
| 18:50.48 | Dave | Chocky deagle sevenhundred |
| 18:51.19 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Will do :D |
| 18:52.03 | sevenhundred | Dave: chocky? :P your references to popular culture are wasted on me |
| 18:53.20 | Dave | :D |
| 18:55.09 | *** join/#openmoko cnwdup (n=harlekin@hnvr-4dbb67f4.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 18:55.36 | ChaosEagle | erm |
| 18:55.43 | ChaosEagle | one thing that cought my eye |
| 18:55.53 | *** join/#openmoko guerby (n=guerby@16.174.71-86.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 18:55.57 | ChaosEagle | the debian-script wants me to boot into NOR, too |
| 18:56.08 | ChaosEagle | is it at all possible to obtain a shell from NAND then? |
| 18:58.08 | Dave | probably |
| 18:59.37 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Hooray! I b0rked my Freerunner! :D |
| 18:59.49 | zash | ChaosEagle: congratulations |
| 19:00.03 | ChaosEagle | zash: Thank you ;) |
| 19:00.26 | sevenhundred | savour the moment :) |
| 19:00.44 | ChaosEagle | the debian-script obviously doesn't work... at least not for booting into flash |
| 19:02.06 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Okay, to be precise - it b0rked my NAND-boot |
| 19:02.14 | bumbl | ChaosEagle: thumbs up |
| 19:02.21 | ChaosEagle | so it seems the environment for the NAND is still written from NOR |
| 19:02.30 | sevenhundred | what happened, then? |
| 19:02.47 | ChaosEagle | I can boot normally (and from NOR) |
| 19:03.13 | sevenhundred | not by just pressing power, then? |
| 19:03.18 | ChaosEagle | but the NAND boot menu is messed up after the first entry (which is boot from SD, which still doesn't find the uimage) |
| 19:03.37 | ChaosEagle | I guess pressing power works just as well, I'll test in a sec |
| 19:04.28 | ChaosEagle | I guess all I have to do is to boot into nor, get a prompt and set a new and sane uboot environment |
| 19:04.51 | *** join/#openmoko froksen (n=froksen@87.54.254.190) |
| 19:07.27 | sevenhundred | good luck |
| 19:07.30 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Okay, booting the "normal" way by pressing power works just fine. It's just the NAND menu thats broken |
| 19:08.05 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: At least I thought so - just a sec pls |
| 19:08.08 | *** join/#openmoko retracile__ (n=eli@76-204-213-211.lightspeed.allntx.sbcglobal.net) |
| 19:08.45 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Nope, normal boot hangs at the orange openmoko start screen. But I guess normal boot utilizes NAND, right? |
| 19:09.14 | sevenhundred | yup, normal boot goes through nand, so it's pretty much expected |
| 19:09.30 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Ah, okay. Should have thought of that :) |
| 19:11.11 | sevenhundred | but how come you can't get a nand prompt? :P |
| 19:12.35 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Well, I can boot into NAND, but I cant get a prompt via USB on my PC |
| 19:12.57 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: That only works from NOR, for NAND no /dev/ttyACM0 is generated |
| 19:13.19 | Gnutoo | hello, how can I read my mail on the om2008.8 in a secure(encrypted) way? (such as ssl/tls supports) because the 3 browser don't support ssl,and the mail application of qtopia exit with unknow error when connecting to the standard compliant mail server |
| 19:13.32 | sevenhundred | ChaosEagle:did you do something with nand before this |
| 19:13.43 | *** join/#openmoko Tig| (n=tigger@82.153.215.237) |
| 19:13.49 | viq | Gnutoo: mail application (qtmail) exits because it doesn't support SSL |
| 19:14.17 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: I updated uboot to todays build... |
| 19:14.43 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Other than that, I played around with then env earlier |
| 19:14.43 | Gnutoo | viq, so what should i do? learn to use a command line mta? |
| 19:15.10 | viq | Gnutoo: or try something like imapsync or other solution that fetches mails locally |
| 19:15.24 | TAsn | i don't get why zhone is trying to turn on antenna, it should be a daemon's job |
| 19:15.32 | Gnutoo | viq, ok...there was a python script that did that...i'll look at it |
| 19:15.38 | *** join/#openmoko Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 19:16.08 | viq | Gnutoo: though I'm not sure qtmail can read local mail |
| 19:16.22 | Gnutoo | ok |
| 19:16.30 | sevenhundred | ChaosEagle: alright, are you working in nor now? |
| 19:17.13 | Gnutoo | thanks |
| 19:17.13 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: yeah |
| 19:19.27 | Dave | viq :p |
| 19:19.50 | viq | Yes? |
| 19:19.55 | Dave | Hallo! |
| 19:20.21 | viq | Heya |
| 19:21.03 | Dave | :) |
| 19:21.21 | snp | damn illume keyboard is actually quite fast to type with... Hits the spots almost every time and I have big fingers :P |
| 19:22.17 | Dave | :D |
| 19:22.19 | Dave | Yes. |
| 19:22.23 | Dave | All praise be to the Rasterman. |
| 19:22.34 | snp | ;) |
| 19:22.52 | snp | but the zoom function is a bit scary..... |
| 19:23.03 | Dave | :D |
| 19:23.11 | Dave | BIG SCARY LETTERS |
| 19:23.13 | Dave | RAWR |
| 19:23.21 | sevenhundred | D: |
| 19:23.22 | snp | lol |
| 19:25.54 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: If I'm not completely mistaken, I have a little situation here ;) |
| 19:26.12 | sevenhundred | oh :O |
| 19:26.14 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: printenv in NOR returns the (working) env for NOR |
| 19:26.37 | *** join/#openmoko hari (n=hklein@i59F740EF.versanet.de) |
| 19:26.52 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: So unless I manage to get a prompt from NAND... |
| 19:27.07 | sevenhundred | ah |
| 19:27.12 | sevenhundred | that is a problem, true |
| 19:28.08 | ChaosEagle | so, ironically, I'm back at my original question, only more urgently now :D |
| 19:28.11 | *** join/#openmoko tjikkun (n=tjikkun@195-240-122-237.ip.telfort.nl) |
| 19:28.29 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: which version of NAND are you using, and do you get a shell from yours? |
| 19:28.32 | Dave | :P |
| 19:28.35 | Dave | Nandcopters |
| 19:28.39 | sevenhundred | but you didn't get any error messages when you ran the configure-uboot? |
| 19:28.50 | sevenhundred | a moment |
| 19:28.59 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: nope, I did it from NOR, as instructed =) |
| 19:29.17 | ChaosEagle | which probalby works because it simply overwrites the uboot-env-partition |
| 19:29.38 | ChaosEagle | (so I guess someone could just send me an image of their working NAND env) |
| 19:30.39 | sevenhundred | whoa, my nand is a bit weird |
| 19:30.59 | ChaosEagle | hehe |
| 19:31.13 | sevenhundred | I only have one thing in the menu XD how did that happen? |
| 19:31.28 | ChaosEagle | i guess something messed up my nand env so that it doesn't provide a prompt anymore |
| 19:31.35 | ChaosEagle | does that sound possible? |
| 19:31.51 | ChaosEagle | *does not know very much about uboot* |
| 19:32.27 | sevenhundred | I don;t think it;s impossible, though I\m no expert either :P |
| 19:32.44 | *** join/#openmoko peter-b (n=peter_b@p54979FD9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:33.14 | sevenhundred | have you tried with another computer? |
| 19:33.23 | ChaosEagle | nope, not yet |
| 19:34.01 | *** join/#openmoko tjikkun_ (n=tjikkun@195-240-122-237.ip.telfort.nl) |
| 19:34.02 | ChaosEagle | but I suppose the computer is not the problem, because getting a prompt from NOR with the same setup works... |
| 19:34.02 | sevenhundred | true |
| 19:34.14 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Can't hurt trying, though :) |
| 19:34.27 | *** part/#openmoko lloyd_fedora (n=darkstar@dxb-as16619.alshamil.net.ae) |
| 19:37.55 | ChaosEagle | so, does anyone here have a (relatively) working nand-env which he/she could backup and send me? :) |
| 19:38.10 | *** join/#openmoko reinouts (n=reinout@s559355fe.adsl.wanadoo.nl) |
| 19:39.18 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Same result from my Laptop. No big surprise, though :) |
| 19:40.06 | sevenhundred | sorry I helped you bork your nand :/ pretty bad karma |
| 19:40.24 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: No worries, I guess it was borked before :) |
| 19:41.08 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Could you just send me a backup of your uboot-env? If that enables the prompt for me again, I can reconstruct the rest myself :) |
| 19:41.53 | sevenhundred | Chaoseagle: yeah, that's true :) I think everyone here's too embarrassed about their nand env's :P sure, I'll just pay my bills and stuff |
| 19:42.28 | *** join/#openmoko RyanPrior (n=chatzill@137.28.240.211) |
| 19:42.37 | *** join/#openmoko ajbrun (n=ajbrun@host81-159-133-95.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) |
| 19:42.42 | TAsn | what's running the "Home" of fso? illume? (i mean the desktop with the launchers) |
| 19:42.48 | RyanPrior | The Free Software Foundation is providing Freerunners to employees free of charge. Woot. :-) |
| 19:42.56 | Tm_T | hrrr |
| 19:43.32 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Thanks :D |
| 19:44.56 | *** join/#openmoko budfive5 (n=asdf@cpe-76-95-115-142.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 19:46.36 | sevenhundred | woo, exactly 1337 sek in total |
| 19:46.44 | ChaosEagle | LOL :D |
| 19:46.54 | ChaosEagle | that's so... 1337 :D |
| 19:47.14 | *** join/#openmoko jaj (n=jaj@hcl-club.lu) |
| 19:47.44 | *** join/#openmoko Ryback_ (n=ulisses@enlightenment/developer/ryback) |
| 19:48.12 | wurp2|working | jaj: Hmm, you asked me the other day to let you know about something... don't remember what |
| 19:48.25 | sevenhundred | chaosEagle: give me you mail, and I'll send it :( |
| 19:48.34 | sevenhundred | :), i mean |
| 19:48.34 | wurp2|working | Ah, Qtopia media player |
| 19:48.39 | wurp2|working | I think I sort of figured it out |
| 19:48.41 | jaj | wurp2|working: yes :) |
| 19:48.51 | jaj | but it wasn't that important really |
| 19:48.52 | wurp2|working | You know how to get songs to play? |
| 19:49.04 | ChaosEagle | sevenhundred: Look at your queries :) |
| 19:49.08 | jaj | no, I don't know how to add songs to the collection |
| 19:49.21 | wurp2|working | The interface is slow if you have lots of music |
| 19:49.26 | wurp2|working | Which was my biggest frustration |
| 19:49.36 | wurp2|working | But if you click music, then wait a long time for the list to come up |
| 19:49.46 | ChaosEagle | wurp2: you figured it out? Can you tell me how to set the search path right? Never worked for me -.- |
| 19:49.52 | wurp2|working | You may have to click back and them music again |
| 19:50.18 | wurp2|working | ChaosEagle: I dunno. It searched all of my sd card, which worked somewhat OK for me |
| 19:50.23 | wurp2|working | my music is in the list, anyway |
| 19:50.36 | wurp2|working | So after you get the list of album, artist, blah |
| 19:50.43 | wurp2|working | click whichever one you want |
| 19:50.47 | wurp2|working | and again wait a long time |
| 19:50.55 | wurp2|working | then keep clicking down until you get to a song |
| 19:51.19 | wurp2|working | Then there is a plus sign on the right side of the song, supposedly if you press & hold it, the song will be put in your current playlist |
| 19:51.40 | *** join/#openmoko Staticwave_Ace (n=Ace@d57-135-60.home.cgocable.net) |
| 19:52.20 | wurp2|working | That's as far as I've gotten, except to accidentally start several songs playing very loudly in embarassing situations |
| 19:52.27 | ChaosEagle | oh, okay - but did you edit your Storage.conf? |
| 19:52.31 | ChaosEagle | LOL :D |
| 19:52.57 | wurp2|working | ChaosEagle: nope |
| 19:53.04 | wurp2|working | It read my whole sd card by default |
| 19:53.18 | wurp2|working | Which gets everything I want, plus a bunch of crap I don't want |
| 19:53.22 | *** join/#openmoko malik1972 (n=malik197@e182060231.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 19:53.31 | ChaosEagle | mhh... do you have the image on SD or on flash? |
| 19:53.47 | *** join/#openmoko sirkha (n=sirkha@c-68-58-178-237.hsd1.sc.comcast.net) |
| 19:53.58 | wurp2|working | IMO it should let you view the files by directory location, and remove all files under directory X or add all files in directory X, plus on a file by file basis |
| 19:54.03 | wurp2|working | ChaosEagle: flash |
| 19:54.20 | ChaosEagle | mhh, weird, me too |
| 19:54.24 | jaj | oh that's why, I didn't have my music on the SD card, I have debian on the SD card |
| 19:54.24 | ChaosEagle | FDOM, that is |
| 19:54.29 | wurp2|working | It would suck if it read the whole sd card, and I had the distro on the sd card |
| 19:54.29 | jaj | I had the music in $HOME |
| 19:54.58 | wurp2|working | jaj: It sounds as if you should be able to edit Storage.conf to get the behavior you want |
| 19:55.18 | wurp2|working | I never put anything on flash, because I swap images too often |
| 19:59.31 | *** join/#openmoko Trevi (n=Trevi@151.60.223.48) |
| 20:00.35 | *** join/#openmoko Blackhex (n=Blackhex@85-132-241-147-eth3-gwmi2-user.802.cz) |
| 20:01.50 | *** join/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@169-239.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 20:01.53 | Blackhex | Hello, is it possible to import and execute frameworkd in 2008.8, please? I'm asking because I want ogpsd agps functionality in 2008.8. |
| 20:08.14 | *** join/#openmoko holycow (n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com) |
| 20:08.43 | *** join/#openmoko baze (n=baze@g226137039.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 20:10.58 | Gnutoo | ENCRYPTED MAIL IS WORKING...i'll make a wiki page |
| 20:11.01 | Gnutoo | !!! |
| 20:11.24 | viq | oh, cool, let us know how |
| 20:12.37 | *** join/#openmoko rmoravcik (n=rmoravci@ip-89-102-255-171.karneval.cz) |
| 20:13.02 | Gnutoo | i will test that it's encrypted using tcpdump... |
| 20:13.18 | *** join/#openmoko dracozna (i=thomas@cc408686-b.leek1.gr.home.nl) |
| 20:13.41 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: cool! |
| 20:13.57 | wurp2|working | Blackhex: yes, it is possible |
| 20:14.06 | wurp2|working | But you'll have to shut down qpe first, I believe |
| 20:14.24 | wurp2|working | (before running frameworkd, not before installing it) |
| 20:14.57 | *** part/#openmoko malik1972 (n=malik197@e182060231.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 20:15.21 | *** join/#openmoko spydon (n=spydon@h254n1c1o1036.bredband.skanova.com) |
| 20:15.45 | Blackhex | wurp2|working: so if I configure init scripts to first run frameworkd and the X it should work without collistions to other daemons like gpsd? |
| 20:16.31 | wurp2|working | hmm, I'm not sure about gpsd, but I don't think it would collide |
| 20:16.39 | wurp2|working | gps should support multiple readers |
| 20:17.27 | wurp2|working | If it does collide, I would think there is a way to turn off frameworkd daemons individually |
| 20:17.31 | Blackhex | I just want to use almanac store/restore functionality of ogps with tangogps so maybe cut out relevant code to simple daemon listening amp events would be better but I don't quite know what to cut out |
| 20:17.37 | *** join/#openmoko bernt (n=bernt@dslb-084-061-198-254.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 20:17.47 | *** join/#openmoko LetoTo1 (n=paul@76-10-173-74.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 20:18.07 | wurp2|working | Blackhex: ack! I misread your first request |
| 20:18.19 | wurp2|working | I thought you said ogsmd, not ogpsd |
| 20:18.33 | wurp2|working | You want to turn off frameworkd's gsm if you're installing on 2008.8 |
| 20:18.46 | wurp2|working | And do not turn off qpe, or your phone won't work |
| 20:20.08 | wurp2|working | I do think the two gps managers will work together OK |
| 20:20.15 | *** join/#openmoko bernt_ (n=bernt@dslb-084-061-198-254.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 20:20.29 | balrog-kun | omgd the OMG! daemon |
| 20:20.51 | FxChiP | sounds like a perfect name for a crash report |
| 20:20.51 | wurp2|working | but... I don't own a FR, all my gps knowledge is from gta01 |
| 20:20.52 | Gnutoo | wurp2|working, how can i verify that it's realy using ssl? the settings are on the ssl ports but how to realy know...wireshark doesn't shows up my mail connection as i already downloaded all my mailbox |
| 20:20.53 | FxChiP | crash reporter |
| 20:20.58 | Blackhex | ok thanks for info, I'll try to trim frameworkd |
| 20:21.02 | wurp2|working | Yeah, I was gonna say that should be a logging daemon |
| 20:22.06 | Gnutoo | wurp2|working, cause people privacy is in risk if i made a tutorial that doesn't work |
| 20:22.44 | Blackhex | wurp2|working: http://shr.bearstech.com/sources/git_git.freesmartphone.org.framework.git.tar.gz are the sources right? |
| 20:23.47 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: hmm, can you run ethereal on your FR? Or use your PC as the router, and run ethereal there? |
| 20:24.28 | Gnutoo | wurp2|working, it's using an open wireless...so i can run etheral/wireshark on my laptop...i can also run tcpdump on my router |
| 20:24.30 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: My typical solution to that is to code a TCP tunnel and run it on the local box (e.g. the FR) tunneling from a local port to the remote server & port |
| 20:24.35 | wurp2|working | and then copying all data to some log |
| 20:24.52 | wurp2|working | I am a programmer, not an admin :-) |
| 20:25.00 | *** join/#openmoko Robot101 (i=robot101@light.bluelinux.co.uk) |
| 20:25.11 | wurp2|working | So I dunno the right tool to do the job, but I can build one |
| 20:25.19 | ChaosEagle | mhh |
| 20:25.35 | ChaosEagle | is it possible for uboot to boot directly from a single ext3 partition? |
| 20:25.48 | ChaosEagle | and if so, whats the command for that? ext3load? |
| 20:25.53 | *** part/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@169-239.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 20:27.45 | Gnutoo | wurp2|working, the problem is that with the amount of mail that i have it's too slow!!! |
| 20:29.24 | viq | Gnutoo: and how much is that? |
| 20:29.37 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: ethereal is too slow? |
| 20:29.50 | Gnutoo | wurp2|working, no the openmoko because of the ammount of mail |
| 20:29.58 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: Oh, I can't help you there :-) |
| 20:30.04 | Gnutoo | more than 800 mails |
| 20:30.07 | TAsn | i can |
| 20:30.08 | Gnutoo | lol |
| 20:30.09 | TAsn | delete some |
| 20:30.10 | TAsn | ;0 |
| 20:30.22 | TAsn | you don't really need that much mail.! |
| 20:30.26 | TAsn | backup on home server |
| 20:30.30 | Gnutoo | ok |
| 20:30.44 | TAsn | let neo just to copy from the server not to download |
| 20:30.44 | |FiLiP| | Gnutoo: when working on mobile devices, you should move all read emails to another folder , and leave only unread emails in inbox |
| 20:30.57 | Gnutoo | ok...i'll do that... |
| 20:30.59 | TAsn | and tell home computer to copy them all the time. |
| 20:31.03 | TAsn | Gnutoo, or use imap. |
| 20:31.18 | *** part/#openmoko Blackhex (n=Blackhex@85-132-241-147-eth3-gwmi2-user.802.cz) |
| 20:32.07 | *** part/#openmoko GuraX1 (n=arne@f054182249.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 20:32.47 | viq | 800? Only three digits? I have mailboxes with 5 ;P |
| 20:34.41 | nyu | http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/bizarre_cathedral_22 |
| 20:34.43 | Gnutoo | wurp2|working, how can i clear the cache of qtopia mail app? |
| 20:34.47 | *** join/#openmoko apol_ (n=apol@84.78.178.63) |
| 20:35.18 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@nat/redhat/x-b569b0a8e8329726) |
| 20:37.04 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: no idea, sorry |
| 20:37.14 | *** join/#openmoko Guilt (n=Karthik@allegro/user/Guilt) |
| 20:37.30 | Gnutoo | wurp2|working, found it |
| 20:37.32 | viq | remove and add the account again? |
| 20:37.50 | wurp2|working | Gnutoo: Cool. I've actually only run qtopia for about 3 days now :-) |
| 20:38.12 | lpotter | really. |
| 20:38.24 | *** join/#openmoko rilo (n=rilo@p54B4CEFD.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:38.25 | lpotter | and hows that working for you? |
| 20:39.01 | wurp2|working | lpotter: Very well, so far |
| 20:39.03 | DocScrutinizer | Dave: don't call my name to tell spooky stories about your cursed freerunner. I'm not interested, as 1) I don't believe it, and 2) even if I did, I couldn't do or learn anything from it |
| 20:39.24 | wurp2|working | I dunno how to tell if it's fast or slow charging, and I haven't gotten a gps app on it |
| 20:39.33 | wurp2|working | and it doesn't switch to headphones when I plug it in |
| 20:39.56 | wurp2|working | But, it suspends & resumes when I get a call, and when I get calls, I actually get them |
| 20:40.01 | lpotter | #1 thats a system decision. #2 has been fixed |
| 20:40.03 | *** part/#openmoko dwb (n=david@pdpc/supporter/active/dwb) |
| 20:40.08 | wurp2|working | And I can send & receive sms |
| 20:40.13 | lpotter | weee! |
| 20:40.20 | lpotter | whoda thunkit |
| 20:40.26 | Tig| | what?!? |
| 20:40.28 | wurp2|working | So, best install so far :-) |
| 20:40.39 | Tig| | what install?? |
| 20:40.43 | wurp2|working | I'm going to try debian + fso next |
| 20:40.49 | lpotter | hopefully, 4.4 wont regress too much |
| 20:40.54 | wurp2|working | Tig|: Qtopia 4.3.2 on gta01 |
| 20:40.55 | parodyoflanguage | Any idea when they'll get the power management fixed? :D |
| 20:41.00 | Tig| | oh |
| 20:41.16 | wurp2|working | lpotter: #1 is a frustrating system decision |
| 20:41.19 | *** join/#openmoko rawtatoor (n=rawtatoo@c-67-163-214-238.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 20:41.27 | wurp2|working | Since the phone will happily run itself dead while telling me that it's charging |
| 20:41.32 | *** join/#openmoko iorz (n=fabian@p50824A54.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:41.43 | wurp2|working | So I keep re-running "fast charge" out of paranoia |
| 20:41.49 | lpotter | you tink qtopia should always turn on fast charge? |
| 20:41.54 | wurp2|working | But apparently not enough paranoia since my phone was chargeless this morning |
| 20:42.05 | wurp2|working | lpotter: Nah, but I would like to see it tell me if it's fast charging |
| 20:42.28 | wurp2|working | And I would love to see it monitor for slow charge and ask me if I want to switch to fast :-) |
| 20:42.30 | lpotter | when you plug in the usb? |
| 20:43.03 | lpotter | does it change itself? |
| 20:43.17 | wurp2|working | lpotter: Whether it's fast charging because it's on usb, or because it's been set to fast charge, I'd much prefer to see a different battery graphic |
| 20:43.29 | wurp2|working | maybe yellow (slow) vs. green (fast) or something |
| 20:43.42 | wurp2|working | of course, I have a gta01 so I'm not the real target market |
| 20:43.57 | lpotter | there are two targets |
| 20:44.25 | wurp2|working | FR would imply another mode, for superfast charge |
| 20:45.05 | wurp2|working | The icon changes when I plug into USB, to show the "crawling" charge level (like an elevator going up repeatedly) |
| 20:45.31 | wurp2|working | It does the same thing when it starts slow charging on a dumb usb |
| 20:45.36 | ronny | how do i enforce fast usb charging ? |
| 20:45.48 | ronny | (actually my fr discharges on my usb) |
| 20:45.50 | wurp2|working | But of course in the second case, it's actually just discharging slower :-) |
| 20:46.52 | wurp2|working | ronny: There is a file that you can echo the proper test into to start fast charge |
| 20:47.14 | wurp2|working | a /sys/ file.... search for charge and sys on the wiki and you should find it |
| 20:49.47 | ronny | thx |
| 20:50.07 | wurp2|working | yw |
| 20:50.49 | *** part/#openmoko budfive5 (n=asdf@cpe-76-95-115-142.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 20:51.46 | wurp2|working | lpotter: You guys really do great work on qtopia. I really appreciate it. |
| 20:52.06 | *** join/#openmoko hanez (n=hanez@c161254.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 20:56.17 | lpotter | thanks |
| 20:57.18 | ChaosEagle | can anyone tell me if it's neccessary to tune the uboot parameters for booting from SD for a bigger SD card? |
| 20:57.25 | *** join/#openmoko bernt (n=bernt@dslb-084-061-198-254.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 20:58.03 | Gnutoo | seems encrypted...http://pastebin.com/m6cb04096 |
| 20:58.05 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 20:58.23 | bernt | Hello, does anyone know, where I can download the rootfs.tar.gz from the Om2007 Distribution which was on my freerunner when it was shipped to me? (I dont make a backup ...) |
| 20:59.37 | *** join/#openmoko TAsnn (n=tasn@89.1.34.80.dynamic.barak-online.net) |
| 20:59.44 | Gnutoo | ok...basically what i've done is 1) get the certificate with openssl on my pc: |
| 21:00.37 | Gnutoo | openssl s_client -connect myserver:143 -showcerts |
| 21:00.42 | Gnutoo | copied the good part |
| 21:00.52 | Gnutoo | (between begin certificate and end) |
| 21:01.07 | Gnutoo | put it in a folder |
| 21:01.18 | Gnutoo | c_rehash /the/folder |
| 21:01.24 | awwaiid | ChaosEagle, you shouldn't have to change parameters, but I did hear somewhere that booting deeply into the card (past 6 gigs?) doesn't work |
| 21:01.37 | Tig| | bernt: actually the images are missing for the freerunner at the moment |
| 21:02.02 | ChaosEagle | awwaiid: Mhh, strange |
| 21:02.08 | Tig| | they must have got lost when everything moved from buildhost.openmoko.oef |
| 21:02.12 | Tig| | .org even |
| 21:02.28 | ChaosEagle | awwaiid: I have a 2 gig SD card, with a single ext2 partition on it, and uboot fails to find the uimage bin :/ |
| 21:02.34 | Gnutoo | then copied the folder to the openmoko at |
| 21:02.36 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@BAA04df.baa.pppool.de) |
| 21:03.12 | Gnutoo | i will make a tutorial...that will be easier... |
| 21:03.19 | bernt | Tigj: That is what I have seen... and I hoped that someone could have made a backup ;-) |
| 21:03.44 | ChaosEagle | any ideas? :/ |
| 21:03.57 | snp | ChaosEagle: did you update the u-boot? |
| 21:04.18 | ChaosEagle | snp: yep, it's a build from today (September 16) |
| 21:04.47 | ChaosEagle | and the uimage resides in /boot on the sd card, as expected |
| 21:04.53 | bernt | ChaosEagle: Have you tried the 512MB-Card? - If all is working with the 512MB, then it could be something with the clock speed ... |
| 21:05.08 | snp | no clue then |
| 21:05.16 | ChaosEagle | bernt: hmm, good idea... |
| 21:05.22 | awwaiid | :( ... sorry, I don't know enough about uboot to help |
| 21:05.22 | awwaiid | I have debian running off of my SD card, but their magical installer script did all the work |
| 21:06.36 | bernt | ChaosEagle: I have this problem also at this time, so I use the 512MB Card but there is nealy no place on it ... |
| 21:06.38 | ChaosEagle | awwaiid: Mhh, tried that script, but it broke my NAND :D |
| 21:06.52 | Wonka | i installed debian on my 512mb card and later moved it to y 8gb microSDHC |
| 21:06.59 | Wonka | works just fine |
| 21:07.01 | ChaosEagle | bernt: Okay, I'm trying the 512mb card then |
| 21:07.05 | *** join/#openmoko rafa (n=rafa@200.123.158.181) |
| 21:07.12 | Wonka | 8MB mmcblk0p1 for /boot |
| 21:07.22 | Wonka | 1016MB mmcblk0p2 for / |
| 21:07.35 | Wonka | and the rest for /media/card |
| 21:07.38 | ChaosEagle | mhh, okay, didn't want to make a seperate partition, though :/ |
| 21:07.40 | bernt | Wonka: do you know the name of the card? |
| 21:07.45 | Wonka | so i can use the data from the system in the flash too |
| 21:08.05 | *** join/#openmoko fletch (n=fletch@schmu.firma.cc) |
| 21:08.08 | ChaosEagle | erm... |
| 21:08.13 | ChaosEagle | *feels stupid* |
| 21:08.34 | wurp2|working | ChaosEagle: I'm all about making a separate partition for my debian, so I can reimage it if it becomes necessary w/o killing all my data |
| 21:08.39 | Wonka | mmc0: new high speed SDHC card at address d555 |
| 21:08.39 | Wonka | mmcblk0: mmc0:d555 SU08G 7977472KiB |
| 21:08.41 | bernt | ChaosEagle: You can solve this with your 512MB Card ;-) |
| 21:10.15 | ChaosEagle | mhh... |
| 21:10.28 | *** join/#openmoko wejp (n=wejp@moon.spacetechnology.net) |
| 21:11.11 | *** join/#openmoko bricode (n=bricode@200.122.185.24) |
| 21:11.20 | Wonka | btw, the ogpsd part of fso-frameworkd from debian seems not to disable NMEA output sometimes... |
| 21:12.04 | ChaosEagle | it might also be that the FDOM-tarball is simply broken or something... |
| 21:12.40 | Gnutoo | here it is...http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qtmail |
| 21:13.09 | wurp2|working | lpotter: You said earlier that the failure of Qtopia to switch to the headphones when they're plugged in has been fixed. Is that released? I'm running the 4.3.2 that was put out on 8/28/08 |
| 21:13.52 | neldoreth | does anyone have a Zagg Protection Discount Number left for me? |
| 21:14.33 | neldoreth | those in the wiki http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Zagg_Protection_Discount_Number doesnt work anymore |
| 21:14.57 | bernt | I have one ... |
| 21:15.20 | wurp2|working | Are people receiving their invisible sheilds now? Last I heard, people were paying for priority shipping and weeks later still didn't have theirs. |
| 21:15.27 | wurp2|working | bernt: How do you like it? |
| 21:15.57 | *** join/#openmoko lichtgestalt1 (n=root@p57AE5625.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:16.23 | neldoreth | wurp2|working: i know one who ordered it with free shipping and waitet weeks - he knows some who paid 6$ upprice and they got it in the next days |
| 21:16.41 | neldoreth | bernt: would you share it with me? if anyone gets one after buying you can have mine back |
| 21:16.54 | bernt | I'm waiting for the shield ... Ordered it 9.11.2008 |
| 21:17.10 | wurp2|working | neldoreth: Ainulindale ordered one long ago and said he paid for faster shipping (dunno how much it was) and he still hadn't gotten it the last I heard. |
| 21:17.24 | ChaosEagle | I have my shield |
| 21:17.32 | wurp2|working | ChaosEagle: How is it? |
| 21:17.34 | bernt | neldoreth: r4k392 |
| 21:17.50 | wurp2|working | neldoreth: I bet I can type it into the order form faster than you |
| 21:18.01 | ChaosEagle | wurp2|working: Seems nice, although I haven't fitted the whole shield yet (just the back and the screen) |
| 21:18.04 | neldoreth | bernt: thank you |
| 21:18.11 | neldoreth | wurp2|working: i already pasted it |
| 21:18.24 | *** join/#openmoko Graf_Ithaka (n=georg@unixboard/users/graf) |
| 21:18.31 | ChaosEagle | the shield for the screen definitely rocks, the other thing is a question of taste, I think. Doesn't look bad, though |
| 21:18.42 | wurp2|working | neldoreth: I was just harassing you anyway :-) |
| 21:18.47 | neldoreth | wurp2|working: :p |
| 21:19.41 | ChaosEagle | bernt: Doesn't work with the 512mb-card either |
| 21:20.24 | ChaosEagle | I suspect the boot command line is somehow broken (overflow?), as it produces a different message after being run for the first time |
| 21:21.19 | bernt | Do you made it like http://wiki.debian.org/DebianOnFreeRunner? |
| 21:21.55 | ChaosEagle | nope, I used http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Booting_from_SD (the qtopia on ext2-part of it) |
| 21:22.14 | *** join/#openmoko georgy_28 (n=georgy@217-117-42-7.teledisnet.be) |
| 21:22.18 | ChaosEagle | the debian way with the script didn't work for me, produced a severely broken NAND boot menu |
| 21:22.46 | neldoreth | bernt: i guess i should get the code via mail right? |
| 21:23.57 | *** join/#openmoko ayeuu (n=ayeuu@tss37-1-82-228-161-185.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 21:24.13 | bernt | It should be in a mail from zagg when responding to your purchase. |
| 21:25.30 | bernt | ChaosEagle: I used the single steps from the script, not the 'all' |
| 21:25.59 | *** join/#openmoko nochd (n=nick@216-139-208-242.aus.us.siteprotect.com) |
| 21:26.10 | neldoreth | ok i didnt received that mail yet |
| 21:26.23 | ChaosEagle | bernt: could you paste me your boot commandline in a query? |
| 21:26.29 | bernt | and I dont touch the uboot-entries with the script, because I had tried this Booting_from_SD first ... |
| 21:27.16 | bernt | ChaosEagle: one moment ... booting ... |
| 21:28.54 | ChaosEagle | okay *waits patiently* :) |
| 21:28.55 | *** join/#openmoko Varox (n=Varox@p4FD47949.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:30.30 | bernt | ChaosEagle: do you know how to get the connection when in boot menu? |
| 21:30.53 | ChaosEagle | bernt: neocon -t 30 /dev/ttyACM0 |
| 21:31.00 | ChaosEagle | (for me, that is) |
| 21:31.33 | *** join/#openmoko bluetoad (n=peter@203.36.230.226) |
| 21:32.02 | ChaosEagle | bernt: provided you have neocon, that is ^^;;; |
| 21:33.35 | ChaosEagle | bernt: otherwise, cu -l /dev/ttyACM0 (as root, and after chown uucp.uucp /dev/ttyACM0) will do |
| 21:36.49 | bernt | ChaosEagle: ok here are the entries: |
| 21:37.03 | bernt | bootargs_base=rootfstype=jffs2 root=/dev/mtdblock6 console=ttySAC2,115200 console=tty0 loglevel=4 regular_boot |
| 21:38.09 | bernt | ChaosEagle: one step back this was NOR ... |
| 21:38.19 | ChaosEagle | okay *g* |
| 21:39.25 | bernt | bootargs=rootfstype=jffs2 root=/dev/mtdblock6 console=ttySAC2,115200 console=tty0 loglevel=8 regular_boot rootfstype=ext2 root=/dev/mmcblk0p2 rootdelay=5 mtdparts=physmap-flash:-(nor);neo1973-nand:0x00040000(u-boot),0x00040000(u-boot_eno |
| 21:39.25 | bernt | bootargs_base=rootfstype=jffs2 root=/dev/mtdblock6 console=ttySAC2,115200 console=tty0 loglevel=8 regular_boot |
| 21:39.37 | wurp2|working | bernt: screen also works instead of cu, but I think neocon is better |
| 21:40.21 | bernt | once again: |
| 21:40.26 | bernt | bootargs=rootfstype=jffs2 root=/dev/mtdblock6 console=ttySAC2,115200 console=tty0 loglevel=8 regular_boot rootfstype=ext2 root=/dev/mmcblk0p2 rootdelay=5 mtdparts=physmap-flash:-(nor);neo1973-nand:0x00040000(u-boot),0x00040000(u-boot_env |
| 21:40.26 | bernt | ),0x00800000(kernel),0x000a0000(splash),0x00040000(factory),0x0f6a0000(rootfs) ro |
| 21:40.43 | *** part/#openmoko rilo (n=rilo@p54B4CEFD.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:40.51 | bernt | bootcmd=setenv bootargs ${bootargs_base} ${mtdparts} rootfstype=ext2 root=/dev/mmcblk0p2 rootdelay=5; mmcinit; ext2load mmc 1 0x32000000 ${sd_image_name}; bootm 0x32000000 |
| 21:41.25 | ChaosEagle | okay - so you have 2 partitions? |
| 21:41.33 | ChaosEagle | because it says mmcblk0p2 |
| 21:41.41 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 21:42.27 | bernt | yes two partitions first ext2 second ext3 |
| 21:42.33 | ChaosEagle | ah, okay |
| 21:42.55 | bernt | and the first has this 8mb size ... |
| 21:43.35 | ChaosEagle | but what do you need it for? You're booting directly off the 2nd partition, right? |
| 21:43.36 | bernt | rootfstype=ext2 is important |
| 21:44.39 | bernt | the first is holding the kernel like /boot with normal linux ... and it was writte in the howto ... |
| 21:45.06 | *** join/#openmoko rmoravcik (n=rmoravci@ip-89-102-255-171.karneval.cz) |
| 21:45.55 | bernt | so the install.sh script is happy ;-) |
| 21:46.01 | ChaosEagle | mhh... |
| 21:46.18 | ChaosEagle | thanks, but this still doesn't work :( |
| 21:46.36 | ChaosEagle | setting "setenv menu_1 FDOM: setenv bootargs ${bootargs_base} ${mtdparts} rootfstype=ext2 root=/dev/mmcblk0p1 rootdelay=5; mmcinit; ext2load mmc 1 0x32000000 ${sd_image_name}; bootm 0x32000000" results in: |
| 21:46.53 | *** join/#openmoko alfatangoxt (n=michele@host206-26-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 21:46.56 | ChaosEagle | ** No boot file defined ** |
| 21:46.57 | ChaosEagle | Wrong Image Format for bootm command |
| 21:46.57 | ChaosEagle | ERROR: can't get kernel image! |
| 21:47.10 | *** join/#openmoko everslick (n=clemens@212-183-113-55.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 21:48.07 | bernt | ext2load mmc 1 0x32000000 ${sd_image_name}; this must have something to do with searching the kernel |
| 21:48.31 | ChaosEagle | *nods* |
| 21:48.49 | ChaosEagle | what also puzzles me is this line when trying that boot option: |
| 21:48.53 | ChaosEagle | MMC/SD size: 511MiB |
| 21:49.00 | bricode | ChaosEagle: I've had problems with ${} variables, and ended up setting them explicitly. |
| 21:49.13 | ChaosEagle | which is strange, because I'm trying to boot from a 2 gig card -.- |
| 21:49.22 | ChaosEagle | bricode: That might be worth a try, thanks :) |
| 21:49.34 | bricode | ChaosEagle: There seems to be an issue with uboot detecting certain SD cards. |
| 21:49.57 | ChaosEagle | :( |
| 21:49.59 | bricode | ChaosEagle: I've got a couple of cards that don't work with uboot but seem to be detected properly by the kernel. |
| 21:50.08 | ChaosEagle | is there a ticket for that in trac? |
| 21:50.29 | bricode | goes to check. |
| 21:50.41 | ChaosEagle | I thought a sandisk card was quite a safe bet, as many people seem to use those *sighs* |
| 21:51.32 | bricode | ChaosEagle: I've got a 2GB Tanscend and a 4GB Sandisk that don't seem to work, even with the glamo clock change. |
| 21:52.12 | slaxxer | do u have 1 that does work? |
| 21:52.30 | bernt | ChaosEagle: also 2GB partition size? |
| 21:52.31 | ChaosEagle | :/ |
| 21:52.39 | ChaosEagle | bernt: yes |
| 21:53.12 | ChaosEagle | bricode: speaking of the variables, what do you expand ${sd_image_name} to? |
| 21:53.42 | bernt | bricode: My first try with a 2GB Tanscend: not working |
| 21:53.43 | *** join/#openmoko pjj__ (n=pjj@187-131-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 21:54.01 | *** part/#openmoko ptitjes (n=didier@93.2.7.240) |
| 21:54.05 | bricode | ChaosEagle: Pertinent tickets: http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1815 http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1849 |
| 21:55.25 | bricode | Anyone know a good state file to output streams in the regular phone earpiece? |
| 21:56.06 | bricode | If someone can tell me, they get big points as it means that a SIP client would be fully working. |
| 21:56.29 | bricode | ChaosEagle: uImage.bin |
| 21:56.59 | ChaosEagle | thx! |
| 21:58.55 | bricode | ChaosEagle: If you continue to have issues, let me know, and I'll give you access to myenv variables that have been working for me. |
| 22:00.05 | ChaosEagle | brecode: *letting you know nowÃ* |
| 22:00.08 | ChaosEagle | -Ã |
| 22:00.38 | bricode | ChaosEagle: Hold on. |
| 22:00.41 | *** join/#openmoko Chocky (n=peter@adsl-75-49-37-103.dsl.sndg02.sbcglobal.net) |
| 22:00.49 | ChaosEagle | bricode: is a uImage.bin supposed to be in the root dir of the card? |
| 22:00.57 | bernt | One line was missing: bootargs_base=rootfstype=jffs2 root=/dev/mtdblock6 console=ttySAC2,115200 console=tty0 loglevel=8 regular_boot |
| 22:01.19 | ChaosEagle | brent: thx, but that should not influence the problem, i think |
| 22:01.31 | bricode | ChaosEagle: In the root of the FAT partition. |
| 22:01.32 | ChaosEagle | rootfstype and root get overwritten anyway |
| 22:01.42 | bricode | ChaosEagle: I was using 2 partitions, one of them FAT. |
| 22:01.57 | bernt | ChaosEagle: uImage.bin this is the filename in the rootdirectory of the 'first' partition |
| 22:02.00 | ChaosEagle | bricode: Which I don't have, as I try to boot directly from an ext2 partition |
| 22:02.06 | ChaosEagle | okay... |
| 22:02.22 | *** join/#openmoko playya (n=playya@p579B8B4D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:02.32 | ChaosEagle | so I should try making an extra vfat partition? |
| 22:03.10 | bernt | Or an ext2 but with vfat you can use the original boot menus |
| 22:03.33 | ChaosEagle | *sighs* that's probably the easiest way then |
| 22:05.12 | bernt | ChaosEagle: At first get it running from sd, then make the cosmetics :-) |
| 22:05.35 | bricode | ChaosEagle: For reference: www.koolu.org/uboot-env |
| 22:06.04 | ChaosEagle | bernt: true |
| 22:06.15 | ChaosEagle | writing the new partition table right now |
| 22:06.20 | bernt | And when I get my 8GB Card and get the card working, 8mb boot partition dont hurt. |
| 22:07.01 | ChaosEagle | bernt: I know, but I always found the whole construction with 2 partitions quite ugly ;) |
| 22:07.06 | Wonka | making it 64MB won't hurt much either |
| 22:07.48 | *** join/#openmoko wdraxinger (n=wdraxing@ppp-88-217-22-205.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 22:08.33 | Wonka | I like ext2 for /boot |
| 22:09.19 | Wonka | i have downloaded kernel and modules from FSO MS3 today and symlinked both /lib/modules/2.6.24 and /boot/uImage.bin to the new modules directory and kernel |
| 22:09.24 | ChaosEagle | so... ext2 or ext3 for root? What is the default in NOR? |
| 22:09.30 | wurp2|working | Hmm, on the us openmoko store site, I click on "Buy it now" and it takes me here: http://us.direct.openmoko.com/products/neo-freerunner |
| 22:09.31 | Wonka | after renaming the old ones to identifiable names |
| 22:09.39 | wurp2|working | Which afaict does not include a way to buy a FR |
| 22:10.46 | bernt | ChaosEagle: I had used ext3 but I think it is used like ext2. |
| 22:10.59 | ChaosEagle | bernt: okay, thanks |
| 22:11.07 | *** join/#openmoko TAsn (n=tasn@89.1.24.224.dynamic.barak-online.net) |
| 22:11.35 | bernt | And I run tunefs :-) dont like fsck on the freerunner ;-) |
| 22:11.57 | ChaosEagle | bernt: Yep, going to do that if booting works :) |
| 22:13.09 | bernt | On my PC I have reiserfs but ext2.fsck on 400 MHz ... dont know how long this will be ... |
| 22:14.49 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=gambler@124-171-160-32.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 22:15.01 | ChaosEagle | YAY :D |
| 22:15.03 | ChaosEagle | it works :D |
| 22:15.10 | ChaosEagle | thanks to everyone :) |
| 22:15.58 | ChaosEagle | So, I guess NOW I can finally install wesnoth ;) |
| 22:16.19 | Graf_Ithaka | how's the wesnoth performance on fr? |
| 22:16.31 | ChaosEagle | I don't know for the latest port |
| 22:16.39 | Wonka | hmm. did wesnoth use other mouse buttons than button 1? |
| 22:16.56 | ChaosEagle | But with the first one, it was actually playable, alebit a bit hard on the eyes ;) |
| 22:17.00 | Graf_Ithaka | just saw the message on the mailing list, but as im quite busy for the moment i didnt have to time to try it out |
| 22:17.10 | Seadog_ | I just installed qtopia, so when the new qtopia version is released, if I add my contacts into the phone memory will they be lost when I update/reflash? |
| 22:17.11 | ChaosEagle | Wonka: Not really, I think |
| 22:17.23 | Wonka | i am still looking for some mine sweeper that lets me mark mines with button1 |
| 22:17.27 | Graf_Ithaka | and today I did something I shouldn't have done ;) opkg update, upgrade :D |
| 22:17.28 | *** join/#openmoko johngay (n=john@adsl-9-117-174.mia.bellsouth.net) |
| 22:17.47 | *** join/#openmoko Richy (n=richy@91-64-139-182-dynip.superkabel.de) |
| 22:18.13 | *** join/#openmoko hklein_ (n=hklein@i59F71D14.versanet.de) |
| 22:18.15 | ChaosEagle | Wonka: Oh, okay - Wesnoth uses the right button for one thing: to recruit units on certain squares of the strongholds |
| 22:18.35 | *** join/#openmoko Tanuva (n=tanuva@e177232189.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 22:18.39 | ChaosEagle | Wonka: But you can do the recruiting via the menu, you just can't choose where the unit spawns that way |
| 22:19.23 | Wonka | which would be nice, though |
| 22:19.31 | Wonka | can make a difference |
| 22:19.43 | ChaosEagle | Wonka: Yep, it would, but it's probably very easy to fix |
| 22:20.15 | ChaosEagle | you could probably replace "right click" with "click and hold" or the like |
| 22:20.27 | Graf_Ithaka | yep |
| 22:20.38 | Wonka | i'd want to just install the debian package :) |
| 22:20.43 | Graf_Ithaka | well anyways, i'll go get some sleep :) cu |
| 22:20.53 | ChaosEagle | Graf_Ithaka: Sleep well then :) |
| 22:21.03 | Graf_Ithaka | ChaosEagle: thx :) |
| 22:21.47 | ljp | Seadog_: if you use the qtopia 'update' tarball, you will keep your settings. |
| 22:30.41 | Seadog_ | ljp: fantastic, thanks |
| 22:31.08 | *** join/#openmoko qhartman_ (n=qhartman@74.93.188.113) |
| 22:31.10 | viq | do you have a good way of getting out the CD card? |
| 22:31.17 | ChaosEagle | I guess I'll go to sleep, too :) |
| 22:31.24 | ChaosEagle | CU all, and thanks for your help =) |
| 22:31.50 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@62.164.241.22) |
| 22:33.27 | Dave | heh |
| 22:33.59 | TAsn | haha fso actually suspends well and even saves battery power while doing so ;0 |
| 22:35.11 | slaxxer | is that fso 3/ |
| 22:35.35 | TAsn | yeah. |
| 22:36.00 | TAsn | it's too soon to tell though it looks well so far |
| 22:36.07 | slaxxer | im ready for the merge |
| 22:36.07 | *** join/#openmoko CIA-22 (n=CIA@208.69.182.149) |
| 22:36.12 | TAsn | what merge? |
| 22:36.27 | slaxxer | THE merge |
| 22:36.36 | Dave | zomg |
| 22:37.00 | bricode | finally has a SIP client working properly |
| 22:37.07 | *** join/#openmoko madwoota (i=mad@woota.net) |
| 22:37.23 | viq | oh? |
| 22:38.11 | slaxxer | bricode is it 2008.8? |
| 22:38.16 | TAsn | slaxxer, shr? |
| 22:38.22 | TAsn | when will it be out? |
| 22:38.39 | slaxxer | i dont know but im ready |
| 22:39.08 | bricode | slaxxer: Nope. Qtopia right now, but should run on anything. |
| 22:39.10 | TAsn | lol. |
| 22:39.14 | bricode | It's command line linphone. |
| 22:39.24 | bricode | audio settings were nasty. |
| 22:39.32 | TAsn | should be cool. |
| 22:39.45 | TAsn | let's just hope it will be faster than gtk2007 ;] |
| 22:39.55 | TAsn | there's no reason for this being so slow |
| 22:40.00 | slaxxer | is it alsa or pulseaudio? |
| 22:40.05 | TAsn | it's only loading a gui. |
| 22:40.05 | bricode | slaxxer: alsa |
| 22:40.52 | slaxxer | maybe alsa needs some trimming down |
| 22:41.14 | slaxxer | thhere are way too many settings to mess with |
| 22:41.34 | bricode | slaxxer: Well, I agree, but there's a lot going on with the state fils. |
| 22:41.52 | bricode | slaxxer: I've abstracted the input/output from the state files... |
| 22:42.17 | bricode | slaxxer: You still need different state files right now to configure the FR for different modes of operations. |
| 22:42.25 | slaxxer | oo |
| 22:42.37 | bricode | slaxxer: At least that's from my understanding. |
| 22:43.32 | *** join/#openmoko playya (n=playya@p579B8B4D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:46.07 | *** join/#openmoko aggtrfrad (n=aggtrfra@CPE001cf0eb9434-CM0018c0d9db72.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 22:48.37 | *** join/#openmoko krau (n=cktakaha@65.249.24.223) |
| 22:48.55 | kelvie | how do you install an ipkg/opkg into the staging area for bitbake? |
| 22:49.08 | kelvie | or do I have to build it every time? |
| 22:51.32 | *** join/#openmoko Any_Key (n=Any_Key@rt94.highlink.ru) |
| 22:53.46 | *** join/#openmoko cheng (n=cheng@xGagB214.WH1.TU-Dresden.De) |
| 22:55.09 | *** join/#openmoko tomboy64 (n=tomboy64@e178027239.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 23:01.01 | *** join/#openmoko data_jepp (n=svein@224.80-202-98.nextgentel.com) |
| 23:02.24 | data_jepp | I got my freerunner 21.07, could that mean i have gps defect? |
| 23:06.42 | TAsn | easy to check |
| 23:06.48 | data_jepp | Oh, how? |
| 23:06.52 | TAsn | look near sd mount if you got a little black dot |
| 23:06.52 | TAsn | ;0 |
| 23:07.04 | TAsn | though i think you do |
| 23:07.27 | TAsn | damn, no documentation for fso sms dbus iface |
| 23:07.47 | data_jepp | What if i dont have it? will gps never work? |
| 23:09.05 | TAsn | actually there's a software fix which works just fine |
| 23:09.13 | TAsn | and even i that have an hw fix |
| 23:09.15 | TAsn | use it |
| 23:09.19 | TAsn | actually everyone use it |
| 23:09.32 | TAsn | it's defaulted on, in recent kernels |
| 23:10.43 | data_jepp | Hmm, ok. I did opkg update and upgrade. But i still couldnt get a fix. |
| 23:10.48 | data_jepp | No black dot |
| 23:11.44 | *** join/#openmoko tg (i=tg@x-net.hu) |
| 23:12.04 | *** join/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@185-4.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 23:15.27 | *** join/#openmoko bricode_ (n=bricode@200.122.185.24) |
| 23:18.32 | TAsn | read the wiki there's a lot of info there |
| 23:18.33 | *** join/#openmoko kjglk (n=aggtrfra@CPE001cf0eb9434-CM0018c0d9db72.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 23:18.33 | TAsn | im out. |
| 23:18.34 | TAsn | sry. |
| 23:19.41 | bricode_ | data_jepp: As long as you're using a kernel from about mid-August or later, you should be okay. |
| 23:20.15 | bricode_ | data_jepp: I'm able to get fixes without h/w fix with newer kernel and that's even booting from SD card. |
| 23:21.18 | aggtrfrad | me2, like 30 seconds with boot from sd, or boot from nand |
| 23:21.34 | TAsn | aggtrfrad, do you use agps? |
| 23:21.40 | TAsn | or plain? |
| 23:21.46 | aggtrfrad | no only tango |
| 23:21.55 | TAsn | it takes me 2-3 mins to get a fix |
| 23:22.00 | TAsn | with hw fix |
| 23:22.04 | TAsn | and softfix |
| 23:22.12 | *** join/#openmoko bricode__ (n=bricode@200.122.185.24) |
| 23:22.19 | TAsn | aggtrfrad, Asisted gps |
| 23:22.23 | aggtrfrad | did u try without the sd card in? maybe its not the hw bugs fault |
| 23:22.36 | TAsn | i haven't |
| 23:23.21 | bricode__ | grr. missed part of that GPS conversation. Was playing with virt. wireless interfaces on my router. |
| 23:24.15 | Dave | heh, bricode :P |
| 23:24.25 | Dave | Where are you these days? :P |
| 23:25.30 | bricode__ | Dave: Back in Costa Rica. Was in Jamaica last week for a wedding. |
| 23:25.54 | *** join/#openmoko Marcel_M (n=Marcel_M@86.59.65.236) |
| 23:27.03 | bricode__ | Dave: It would be totally sweet if someone could explain the ALSA mappings.... |
| 23:27.40 | data_jepp | I couldnt care less about the gps, ill test it when im out tomorrow. =) |
| 23:34.14 | *** join/#openmoko mkmks (n=nf@nfrolov.dialup.corbina.ru) |
| 23:36.44 | *** part/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@185-4.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 23:37.14 | Sargun | What is the manufacturing status of the FR? |
| 23:38.22 | jaj | bricode__: you're from costa rica? |
| 23:39.05 | bricode__ | jaj: I'm originally Canadian, but I'm working down here. |
| 23:39.23 | bricode__ | Sargun: Freerunners are in production.\ |
| 23:39.28 | celtune | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:39.39 | bricode__ | celtune: Howdy. |
| 23:40.21 | jaj | bricode__: a friend of mine was on holiday in costa rica and she really enjoyed it |
| 23:41.14 | Sargun | bricode__, haha, when are we getting more? |
| 23:41.54 | Dave | Sargun :P |
| 23:41.57 | bricode__ | Sargun: Soon. I'm not sure of the exact dates at the moment, but soon. Are you looking to buy? |
| 23:42.04 | bricode__ | jaj: It's a beautiful place. |
| 23:42.32 | Sargun | bricode__, yeah. |
| 23:42.49 | bricode__ | Sargun: Where are you located? |
| 23:42.53 | Sargun | California |
| 23:43.04 | *** join/#openmoko rjack (n=ritucci@adsl-ull-197-60.51-151.net24.it) |
| 23:43.05 | Sargun | San Jose. |
| 23:43.11 | Sargun | Not San Jose, CR |
| 23:43.36 | bricode__ | Sargun: Well, Koolu has some in stock (note: I work for Koolu) |
| 23:44.40 | Sargun | I dislike their website. |
| 23:44.49 | Sargun | we're looking at buying 4-5 |
| 23:45.09 | Sargun | Is koolu putting money into OM |
| 23:45.22 | Sargun | I think they should have had Amazon do the distribution |
| 23:45.30 | Sargun | how many FRs have been sold? |
| 23:48.19 | bricode__ | Sargun: Yes, Koolu is. It's one of the larger purchasers of phones. |
| 23:48.52 | Sargun | Maybe they should make their website a little less... Retarded? |
| 23:48.55 | Sargun | ;-P |
| 23:49.07 | bricode__ | Sargun: You can choose not to like the website, but if you want a phone, I would use it. |
| 23:49.29 | Sargun | bricode__, I'll wait for OM.com |
| 23:49.43 | johngay | Anyone look at http://sourceforge.net/projects/easystroke/ |
| 23:49.47 | bricode__ | Sargun: You may be waiting a long time. |
| 23:50.18 | johngay | I think OM has stopped supplying phones so that distributors, like Koolu can make money. |
| 23:50.22 | Sargun | bricode__, Why do you say that? |
| 23:50.27 | Sargun | Bah. |
| 23:50.34 | *** join/#openmoko batti112 (n=batti@p5B14C21E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 23:51.12 | bricode__ | johngay: There's some truth to that. OM wants to develop a distribution network instead of handing all the direct sales themselves. |
| 23:51.31 | Sargun | can you guys make your website a bit... better? |
| 23:51.33 | johngay | When I ordered mine from Koolu, they charged me canadian dollars, though I think they've changed that now. |
| 23:52.38 | bricode__ | Sargun: Depends on where you want to put your $$$ and time. |
| 23:52.51 | Sargun | I've already bought 1 phone from OM.com |
| 23:52.55 | bricode__ | Sargun: Currently it's functional, and serves its purpose. |
| 23:53.04 | *** join/#openmoko centaur5 (n=fishman@209-33-197-88.dsl.infowest.net) |
| 23:53.05 | *** join/#openmoko ruoso (n=ruoso@201009037046.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
| 23:53.52 | bricode__ | johngay: That's right. It's in usd now since all the phones purchased from OM are in usd. |
| 23:53.57 | johngay | Anyone look at porting http://sourceforge.net/projects/easystroke/ to use accellerometers? |
| 23:54.31 | *** join/#openmoko smhar (n=salman@81.22.21.91) |
| 23:56.12 | *** join/#openmoko Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) |
| 23:57.25 | johngay | Guess not. |
| 23:58.06 | johngay | I wouldn't let my dis-like of a webpage design stop me from getting more phones. I doubt OM will distribute any more. |
| 23:59.54 | *** join/#openmoko bluetoad (n=peter@eth6398.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net) |
