| 00:00.00 | edistar | torero: make a .desktop file in /usr/share/applications/ |
| 00:00.07 | white_gecko | why? |
| 00:00.21 | edistar | white_gecko: cause 2008.8 uses qtopia/qpe and not FSO |
| 00:00.22 | torero | edistar: thanks |
| 00:00.26 | edistar | so zhone would be of no use |
| 00:00.40 | edistar | white_gecko: install the FSO image |
| 00:00.43 | edistar | milestone 3 |
| 00:00.49 | edistar | that has illume with zhone |
| 00:00.49 | white_gecko | edistar: hm, but i want any home screen to have a bick clock |
| 00:01.15 | edistar | white_gecko: ah, well.. best to write the app yourself |
| 00:01.22 | white_gecko | hm ok |
| 00:01.40 | edistar | or patch out all the rest in zhone ;) |
| 00:01.58 | white_gecko | edistar: where should i put this than, that i have it started at startup |
| 00:02.36 | white_gecko | and maybe it should replace the ==LOCKED== thing I get when pressing the AUX button |
| 00:04.12 | edistar | good luck |
| 00:06.33 | raster | plans to organise the "desktop" better... justa launcher is such a waste of a nice home desktop |
| 00:06.33 | white_gecko | where can i find info about this? |
| 00:07.05 | edistar | raster: do you have 2 mins? |
| 00:07.21 | raster | 2 |
| 00:07.34 | raster | counting from.. now |
| 00:07.46 | raster | :) |
| 00:07.56 | edistar | query :) |
| 00:08.33 | raster | 1m |
| 00:08.33 | *** join/#openmoko hever (n=hever@ip-78-94-188-246.hsi.ish.de) |
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| 00:10.54 | hever | When will be the GTA04 be available? (I'm not sure if there are release periods or plannings) I know if all works very fine first versions of GTA03 will be available at the end of this year... |
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| 00:12.16 | *** part/#openmoko bluetoad (n=peter@62.70.2.252) |
| 00:13.23 | raster | giggles |
| 00:16.27 | *** part/#openmoko alx___ (n=alx@89.131.177.156) |
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| 00:19.22 | Dave | :o |
| 00:19.31 | Dave | What's going on over there, mister raster? |
| 00:20.19 | raster | pants off |
| 00:27.42 | *** join/#openmoko djp (n=djp@76-10-153-9.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 00:33.44 | mmaestri | rwhitby: are you there? |
| 00:34.02 | *** join/#openmoko KenYoung (n=Ken@pool-141-157-184-61.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 00:34.09 | mmaestri | shr.bearstech.com is building fso m3 ? |
| 00:34.48 | rwhitby | mmaestri: shr.bearstech.com always builds well defined images for fso-testing and fso-unstable. |
| 00:35.01 | rwhitby | whether that corresponds to fso m3 or not is another matter ;-) |
| 00:36.21 | KenYoung | My impression is that FSO M3 does not have gypsy handling GPS servers (I haven't tried FSO yet) - does anyone know if that is true? |
| 00:36.43 | KenYoung | oops "services", not "servers". |
| 00:37.41 | Dave | Hello |
| 00:37.55 | Dave | How are you tonight, Mr. Young? |
| 00:38.09 | KenYoung | Just fine, Dave. |
| 00:38.30 | *** join/#openmoko tim_abell (n=tim@host-84-9-149-2.dslgb.com) |
| 00:39.20 | tim_abell | i've just flashed my freerunner with a very empty om2008. is there any guidance anywhere on what packages are sensible to install? |
| 00:39.25 | *** join/#openmoko mattl (n=mattl@fsf/staff/mattl) |
| 00:40.38 | KenYoung | tim_abell, You could look at the stuff included in the FDOM stack (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FDOM). |
| 00:41.06 | tim_abell | perfect, nice one KenYoung |
| 00:42.43 | cjb | is the calendar in fso-3 supposed to work? :) |
| 00:43.11 | KenYoung | tim_abell, If you just flashed 2008, you might want to consider flashing the FDOM instead, since it comes with a keyboard setup hat most people prefer (I think) to the default 2008.8 one, and it has sensible gtk defaults, so that you don't get black background menus with black text, etc. |
| 00:43.12 | tim_abell | added to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Download#Developer |
| 00:43.45 | tim_abell | oh right, I hadn't really come across FDOM before you mentioned it |
| 00:44.13 | KenYoung | tim_abell, But you probably don't want to use the kernel pointed to on the FDOM page, because I think it has suspend problems. |
| 00:44.51 | KenYoung | You can use the FDOM rootfs with a better kernel. |
| 00:45.18 | tim_abell | i'd probably be keen to stick to the official build so that I can report problems more reliably |
| 00:47.47 | tim_abell | what I'd really like is a wiki page with a list of om2008-testing packages, the name for opkg, description and whether it's a good idea or not to install it... |
| 00:48.23 | tim_abell | then i can pick out what i fancy. at the moment it's a bit of a trial figuring out what to install, unless I've missed something (likely!) |
| 00:49.29 | KenYoung | tim_abell, There have been pages like that in the past, but they tend to be abandonned and quickly become obsolete. Is there any particular type of application you are looking for? Have you browsed the gForge repository for OM projects? |
| 00:50.38 | tim_abell | not really sure yet other than phone stack, keyboard etc, something like the first release of om2008 i guess. I'm a bit wary because I fubar'd the keyboard on my previous om2008 install by installing an extra package (i forget what) |
| 00:52.03 | tim_abell | i found a few pages like you mention http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Software_list http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications_directory http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications |
| 00:53.06 | tim_abell | and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Available_Packages |
| 00:53.32 | *** join/#openmoko flavioribeiro (n=flaviori@189.17.84.161) |
| 00:53.42 | mpr | tim_abell: if you mean that illume keyboard got replaced with the default 2008.08 one on e.g. raster's image, that happens after installing anything |
| 00:54.01 | mpr | but the illume one is restored after a x restart or reboot |
| 00:54.01 | Dave | very odd. |
| 00:54.19 | Dave | illume? raster? awesometastical? |
| 00:54.19 | KenYoung | There have been significant efforts to clean up the wiki lately. It used to be festooned with pages listing whow received their neo1973 on what day in 2007, which applications they thought were cool, roadmaps for developing the 2007.1 stqck, etc. |
| 00:54.25 | tim_abell | i'm afraid i have no idea what happened. it's been reflashed now anyway so I'm not worried about what happened |
| 00:54.46 | tim_abell | lol, it will inevitably improve |
| 00:54.54 | tim_abell | I <3 wikis |
| 00:55.10 | Dave | Hey, it's still cool! |
| 00:55.17 | Dave | Just check out the wishlist :P |
| 00:55.17 | mpr | just keep in mind if it happens again that a reflash isn't necessary, a reboot will fix it. :) |
| 00:56.13 | *** join/#openmoko cnwdup_ (n=harlekin@hnvr-4dbd6042.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 00:56.25 | *** join/#openmoko gromez (n=gromez@unaffiliated/gromez) |
| 00:56.32 | tim_abell | mpr, i mostly reflashed to make sure i had a totally clean install and that i didn't bother you guys with problems of my own making ;) |
| 00:58.00 | tim_abell | i don't have any interesting data on it yet so it's no shakes, and I'm impressed how quick and easy it is to re-flash kernel+rootfs. that's one of the reasons i bought the phone, and I love it |
| 00:58.06 | *** join/#openmoko slchen (n=slchen@220-133-21-203.HINET-IP.hinet.net) |
| 01:00.00 | torero | is there a task manager for 2008.8? |
| 01:00.19 | *** join/#openmoko pantsd_ (i=holden@66.207.162.62) |
| 01:00.43 | torero | task manager as in to kill processes etc not a todo list |
| 01:00.51 | Dave | heh |
| 01:00.54 | Dave | good clarification there :P |
| 01:01.02 | Dave | right |
| 01:01.06 | Dave | hence the management part |
| 01:01.09 | Dave | not a process listing :p |
| 01:01.40 | torero | yes, i actually just want to kill a process but i dont want to add an icon to do it :) |
| 01:01.57 | KenYoung | torero, Have you tried using the little triangle at the screen's top?" |
| 01:02.21 | KenYoung | If you tap that triangle, you should get a list of running aps. |
| 01:02.22 | torero | KenYoung: its a python script the one i want to kill |
| 01:02.41 | torero | KenYoung: so it doesnt appear there |
| 01:03.03 | tim_abell | is there some way to distinguish between applications and everything else (supporting libraries) in the opkg list? that would make it significantly easier to pick through |
| 01:03.14 | KenYoung | torero, You can run the terminal ap, do ps ax, and kill the process. |
| 01:03.34 | torero | yep, i know. i just wanted to see if there was a GUI |
| 01:04.29 | *** join/#openmoko jadams (n=jadams@71-12-188-209.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com) |
| 01:06.19 | torero | i guess ill just start doing my own GUI to start stop the process :) |
| 01:06.37 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE001217b19226-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 01:06.48 | Dave | :D |
| 01:07.04 | Dave | start it, stop it, flip it, flop it |
| 01:07.10 | Dave | dance to it! woo |
| 01:08.29 | *** part/#openmoko white_gecko (n=natanael@91.65.91.60) |
| 01:08.46 | tim_abell | i'm struggling with how all the software for the phone fits together. (just the packaged stuff, never mind all the external stuff that's around) |
| 01:09.07 | tim_abell | i don't really know where I should go from here |
| 01:09.22 | torero | Dave: Buy it, use it, break it, fix it,Trash it, change it, mail, upgrade it. |
| 01:09.27 | tim_abell | scour the opkg list and pick things that look right? or will I end up with a mess?! |
| 01:09.29 | Dave | huhu |
| 01:09.48 | Dave | Go go gadget speedevil! |
| 01:09.53 | tim_abell | perhaps i'm too tired for this today. so little time |
| 01:10.01 | KenYoung | tim_abell, Did you download a rootfs for 2008.8 that doesn't even have the dialer application installed? |
| 01:10.01 | torero | hehe |
| 01:10.11 | tim_abell | that's the one! |
| 01:10.19 | tim_abell | i want to be on bleeding edge |
| 01:10.27 | tim_abell | but am a little out of depth for now |
| 01:10.38 | KenYoung | tim_abell, Why not use the official OM rootfs that at least has basic phone functionality? |
| 01:10.43 | tim_abell | i'm happy to have it break on update |
| 01:10.52 | Dave | ick |
| 01:10.58 | Dave | explosive |
| 01:11.08 | KenYoung | tim_abell, You're going to be a very happy man. |
| 01:11.08 | tim_abell | so that I can (eventually) contribute back with useful up to date feedback |
| 01:11.15 | tim_abell | :-D |
| 01:11.26 | tim_abell | and maybe even help with dev |
| 01:11.52 | tim_abell | I work all day on software and it always frustrates me that I never quite manage to contribute code to this kind of project |
| 01:12.18 | mpr | then you should try debian/fso etc. alternative images too |
| 01:12.35 | mpr | helps to get perspective about what is available and what devs are working on |
| 01:12.38 | tim_abell | allbeit namby pamby web / java development mostly :-) |
| 01:12.52 | Dave | haha |
| 01:13.06 | Dave | was ms3 replaced today? |
| 01:13.25 | mpr | e.g. try installing debian to the sd card and then install stuff w/ apt-get |
| 01:13.30 | KenYoung | Dave, it was officially released today. |
| 01:13.44 | Dave | right but do the om links work now? |
| 01:13.51 | Dave | someone was claiming they had been 'down' earlier |
| 01:13.55 | tim_abell | i'm intrigued by the debian thing, I haven't got the gist of the objective of the java port, other than it being very cool (and I'm a great fan of debian) |
| 01:13.56 | Dave | presumably with the REAL ones :P |
| 01:14.04 | Dave | to be replaced by, anyway |
| 01:14.43 | tim_abell | is the debian install not horribly slow? seems like a big ask of such a small thing |
| 01:15.13 | rwhitby | debian runs on nslu2, which has much fewer resources than a freerunner |
| 01:15.14 | mpr | takes less than an hour to get a working system w/ the install script |
| 01:16.10 | edistar | mpr: how? |
| 01:16.33 | Dave | rwhitby, freerunner's fat :p |
| 01:16.35 | mpr | http://wiki.debian.org/DebianOnFreeRunner |
| 01:16.41 | Dave | sounds hot |
| 01:16.42 | edistar | mpr: ok, takes longer for me ;) |
| 01:16.47 | Dave | FreerunnerOnDebian? |
| 01:17.07 | Dave | I think we all know which one would be on top :p |
| 01:18.00 | mpr | use the vfat boot partition and you won't even have to touch the uboot stuff |
| 01:18.43 | torindel | Dave: "Freerunner for Dummies" >_> |
| 01:18.50 | torindel | hides |
| 01:18.50 | tim_abell | gosh, all very cool |
| 01:19.02 | *** part/#openmoko pabs3 (n=pabs@d122-105-78-204.per9.wa.optusnet.com.au) |
| 01:19.55 | Dave | :D |
| 01:20.01 | Dave | more like |
| 01:20.08 | Dave | Freerunner for Crazies! |
| 01:20.16 | Dave | Since clearly only an INSANE person would use this! |
| 01:20.18 | Dave | (as a phone!) |
| 01:20.24 | Dave | haha |
| 01:20.28 | Dave | poor phrozen |
| 01:20.30 | Dave | heh |
| 01:22.06 | tim_abell | reads own messages and realises aliens have inserted words during the transition from brain to fingers. "java port"?! i meant debian. I must be tired |
| 01:23.15 | mpr | the point of debian on fr is that you get a huge arme software repository |
| 01:23.42 | Dave | :P |
| 01:23.55 | torindel | you can build your own things without need to play with openembedded ;p |
| 01:23.55 | edistar | a whole arm y |
| 01:24.02 | mpr | debian is used on many other embedded devices too and so there's a much larger repository of software already available than in the 2008.8 opkg archives |
| 01:24.11 | torindel | edistar: i'd prefer a leg |
| 01:24.47 | mpr | yeah, for example compiling natively is a snap w/ debian, just apt-get gcc&libc-dev |
| 01:25.01 | torindel | mpr: on gentoo too |
| 01:25.03 | mpr | and not so easy w/ om images :) |
| 01:25.19 | torindel | mpr: more like impossible with om images ;] |
| 01:25.28 | torindel | borked compiler, borked headers |
| 01:26.13 | torindel | mpr: you got uclibc debian? |
| 01:27.07 | torero | which method works to connect to a WEP wifi? im trying the default 2008.8 GUI inside setting but i dont get it to work :( it works from the command line :) |
| 01:27.20 | Dave | openmofo |
| 01:27.26 | mpr | I think the install script installs glibc? |
| 01:27.32 | edistar | openmofa |
| 01:27.51 | edistar | mpr: it does, yes |
| 01:27.53 | *** join/#openmoko unlotto (n=unlotto@ip114.rev112.brygge.net) |
| 01:27.56 | Dave | :o |
| 01:28.07 | *** join/#openmoko ChandleWEi (n=chandle@210.13.121.62) |
| 01:28.43 | *** join/#openmoko darkjames (n=darkjame@truskawa.wafel.com) |
| 01:28.56 | torindel | openkoko |
| 01:35.42 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 01:40.43 | Dave | openbogo |
| 01:41.00 | edistar | opengogo? |
| 01:41.17 | tim_abell | for posterity http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debian#Why_use_debian |
| 01:41.20 | torero | openloko? |
| 01:41.30 | Dave | :o |
| 01:41.34 | tim_abell | thanks guys |
| 01:41.44 | tim_abell | (gals?) |
| 01:42.01 | edistar | no gals, right? |
| 01:42.02 | KenYoung | tim_abell, Not likely. |
| 01:42.08 | torero | nope |
| 01:42.32 | tim_abell | lol, my better half comes out in a rash when exposed to computers for more than ten minutes |
| 01:42.33 | KenYoung | It would be very fun to know the gender breakdown of Freerunner purchasers. |
| 01:42.43 | tim_abell | i think it'd be depressing |
| 01:43.02 | tim_abell | openmoko phone stack, or qtopia phone stack? opinions? |
| 01:43.19 | tim_abell | or both, for that matter |
| 01:44.00 | mwester | There are undoubtedly females on the ML, and even here, but it's rather doubtful that they would announce that fact... think about the other stereotype that the linux geek has earned. |
| 01:44.07 | tim_abell | yay, i just added a desktop file for mtpaint, and it appeared on my desktop. hurrah |
| 01:44.30 | slaxxin | did fso III blow or not? |
| 01:44.54 | tim_abell | indeed. i rather like the faceless form of the internet. prevents you having prejudices |
| 01:45.29 | slaxxin | did they fix fsoIII? |
| 01:45.39 | edistar | tim_abell: nice |
| 01:45.42 | raster | bah |
| 01:45.43 | cjb | except if you have a female name |
| 01:45.54 | raster | much easier being biggotted and assuming things about everyone |
| 01:45.59 | mwester | slaxxin: yes, at least the two problems that led to it being delayed. |
| 01:45.59 | raster | i'm an equal-opportunity biggot |
| 01:46.05 | raster | :) |
| 01:46.08 | tim_abell | lol |
| 01:46.09 | slaxxin | the sms? |
| 01:46.14 | cjb | a world where you don't suffer prejudice until you reveal what gender you are is not a world without prejudice. it's just a world where you're hiding your gender. |
| 01:46.18 | slaxxin | thanks |
| 01:46.19 | raster | everyone gets euqal amoutns of biggotry applied :) |
| 01:46.25 | raster | at least its fair! |
| 01:46.26 | raster | :) |
| 01:46.33 | raster | (just kidding!) |
| 01:46.47 | edistar | it is fair in a sense |
| 01:46.50 | tim_abell | accidentally lights blue touch paper. runs away |
| 01:46.56 | cjb | (no, it's not) |
| 01:47.18 | cjb | we're all boasting how awesome and unprejudiced our community is. has anyone tried considering *why* there aren't any women here? |
| 01:47.36 | torero | they have better things to do? |
| 01:47.40 | tim_abell | sure, they have more sense |
| 01:47.42 | mwester | notes that this channel regularly wanders off into off-topic discussions... |
| 01:47.44 | tim_abell | cough |
| 01:47.52 | cjb | I mean, I've heard figures for women programmers, women CS students as in the 70%-30% range. Why do we have <1% instead of 30%? |
| 01:47.53 | edistar | they're more intelligent, who would ever buy a non-working phone? |
| 01:48.00 | mwester | hehe! |
| 01:48.01 | cjb | edistar: that might be it ;-) |
| 01:48.06 | torero | lol |
| 01:48.16 | torero | is there an #iphone channel? |
| 01:48.23 | torero | maybe you want to survey there |
| 01:48.29 | tim_abell | my other half looks at me with loving bewilderment when i say i love my unfinished phone |
| 01:48.39 | edistar | mwester: the topic says it, devs please don't stay here |
| 01:48.51 | edistar | tim_abell: well, you should love her instead! |
| 01:48.59 | mwester | Mine just thinks I'm insane. |
| 01:49.00 | tim_abell | lol, goes without saying |
| 01:49.04 | edistar | tim_abell: :P |
| 01:49.08 | raster | cjb: because omen- in general have no interest in software, circuits, or nerdy geeky things we are |
| 01:49.15 | raster | and thats not biased |
| 01:49.19 | cjb | raster: that's demonstratably untrue. |
| 01:49.37 | raster | i simply can look at all females i know - and ai have a large set of female friends. the onyl one that comes close is a sysadmin |
| 01:49.46 | raster | and she doesnt give 2 hoots about the nerdy details - it's just a job. |
| 01:49.55 | torero | ok i just went to #iphone, no femalish nicks there :) im so relieved |
| 01:49.55 | raster | cjb: demonstrate then |
| 01:49.58 | cjb | I guess I have cooler friends than you ;-) |
| 01:50.00 | tim_abell | my better half is off to study psychology, so perhaps she'll tell us when she's done :) |
| 01:50.07 | raster | as statistically # of women who write software |
| 01:50.11 | raster | ddesign hardware |
| 01:50.14 | raster | particupate in oss |
| 01:50.15 | KenYoung | There are lots of women in science and tech, but very few of them are really nerds. |
| 01:50.21 | Tronic | cjb: It's true. Probably has nothing to do with the sexes, but rather with the culture. |
| 01:50.25 | raster | or for that matter will eve have a discussion about it over coffe/beer |
| 01:50.31 | raster | i can say is ain incredibly minority |
| 01:50.40 | raster | i'd be happy to have more |
| 01:50.42 | cjb | Tronic: well, the part of the culture where we trash women as being uninterested in being nerdy probably isn't a good start. |
| 01:50.48 | raster | but its nothing to do with prejudice or anything |
| 01:50.52 | raster | they just dont CARE |
| 01:50.56 | raster | a phone is a tool |
| 01:51.04 | raster | a device - to talk / communicate with your friends |
| 01:51.05 | raster | and socialise |
| 01:51.06 | tim_abell | i did cyb & control at uni and none of the girls graduated on my course |
| 01:51.06 | mwester | thinks cjb is right. |
| 01:51.10 | raster | who gives a crap if its open or not |
| 01:51.11 | tim_abell | for various reasons |
| 01:51.14 | raster | they dont |
| 01:51.18 | Tronic | For example, if you look at the proportions of female students in CS or physics majors. |
| 01:51.35 | tim_abell | out of the 3 that started |
| 01:51.35 | edistar | girls have enough opportunity nowadays to be able to care if they want to |
| 01:51.50 | tim_abell | indeed, i regularly try and force mine to care |
| 01:51.52 | tim_abell | :) |
| 01:52.09 | tim_abell | in the nicest possible way |
| 01:52.18 | cjb | edistar: in a world where people presume you don't care, it's enough to say "well, they just don't want to". People do what they're encouraged to do. |
| 01:52.18 | raster | yup |
| 01:52.23 | raster | i dont see attitude beng the problem |
| 01:52.26 | raster | it just doesnt interest them |
| 01:52.29 | raster | it interests SOME |
| 01:52.30 | raster | very few |
| 01:52.50 | cjb | If we look at a smart boy and tell him he could be a computer programmer, that's one thing; if we look at a smart girl and tell her she could be a lawyer, what's her motivation for wanting to be a programmer? |
| 01:52.51 | raster | cjb: i was NEVER encouraged to do computer stuff |
| 01:52.53 | tim_abell | eg, i tried to set up her phone for email. man i hate all the other phones i've ever dealt with |
| 01:52.54 | edistar | cjb: yes, but they are encouraged nowadays |
| 01:52.55 | raster | hell i was discouraged |
| 01:52.57 | raster | for years |
| 01:53.04 | raster | my parents wanted me to do law or medicine |
| 01:53.06 | cjb | edistar: I'm afraid that's not actually true. |
| 01:53.10 | raster | its to do with what u WANT to do |
| 01:53.13 | *** join/#openmoko spdr_ (n=spdr@89-138-152-210.bb.netvision.net.il) |
| 01:53.21 | edistar | cjb: at my school it was, at least up to may.. I finished then ;) |
| 01:53.24 | cjb | raster: "what you want" is a product of how society treats you. |
| 01:53.34 | raster | trust me |
| 01:53.38 | raster | its definitely isnt for me |
| 01:53.53 | raster | u have no idea how much crap i got teasted for being a "nerd" |
| 01:53.55 | raster | a "geek" |
| 01:53.57 | raster | at school |
| 01:54.08 | cjb | sure, we all did. |
| 01:54.09 | tim_abell | i think native geeks are a rare breed per head of population, even for men, so perhaps comparing to all women is less informative |
| 01:54.17 | raster | having any interest in anything but football and beer (ie interested in anything academic/intellectual - ESPECIALLY computers) |
| 01:54.23 | edistar | teases raster because he's a nerdy geek! |
| 01:54.35 | cjb | tim_abell: programmers aren't rare. I respect that people who program in their spare time are. |
| 01:54.44 | raster | if i was a product of what iw as encouraged to do i'd be a football (rugby) playing lawyer. |
| 01:55.02 | raster | so i utterly disagree |
| 01:55.14 | edistar | maybe you're the famous exception |
| 01:55.15 | tim_abell | i'd have been an engineer if I hadn't found an easier way to make money :) |
| 01:55.17 | raster | statistics demonstrate how little interest there is from females in "tech" |
| 01:55.39 | cjb | raster: and I'm saying that we create and persist that lack of interest. |
| 01:55.50 | raster | thats not our problem |
| 01:55.55 | cjb | ! |
| 01:56.00 | raster | we dont put a barrier of entry |
| 01:56.03 | raster | the door is open |
| 01:56.06 | cjb | it's our problem if we want an inclusive environment. |
| 01:56.07 | raster | they choose not to walk in |
| 01:56.10 | raster | not our problem |
| 01:56.16 | raster | it is inclusive |
| 01:56.16 | tim_abell | i go with the view that the culture has a relatively minor effect on who joins in |
| 01:56.25 | raster | in fact much MORE inclusive than most professions |
| 01:56.29 | cjb | raster: oh. you need to read up on how merely not being obnoxious to women isn't the same as making an attractive environment for them. |
| 01:56.37 | raster | law and medicine have massive entry barriers |
| 01:56.38 | tim_abell | cough clergy, cough |
| 01:56.42 | raster | socially and academically |
| 01:56.48 | raster | but u see lots of women there |
| 01:56.52 | cjb | raster: and I contend that that's obviously ridiculous, because any other organization would actually manage to attract a woman occasionally. |
| 01:57.01 | raster | all u need is a little "get up and go" to get into tech |
| 01:57.03 | cjb | women score just as highly as men on math and CS tests. |
| 01:57.04 | raster | u dont need a degree |
| 01:57.06 | cjb | they're already in tech. |
| 01:57.34 | cjb | they're just not here. because we're uninterested in welcoming them. |
| 01:57.39 | raster | and they tend to drop out early on during cs degrees |
| 01:57.50 | edistar | cjb: so what is stopping them? becoming a geek is not a matter of being encouraged by society, once you are a techie |
| 01:57.58 | raster | cjb: thats crap |
| 01:58.08 | tim_abell | oh dear. what have i done :s |
| 01:58.16 | raster | its the apology syncrome |
| 01:58.20 | edistar | tim_abell: always the troublemaker |
| 01:58.22 | raster | go beat yourself up for something |
| 01:58.25 | raster | its Nnot your fault |
| 01:58.28 | raster | its not your problem |
| 01:58.33 | raster | this is perfectly open |
| 01:58.33 | cjb | edistar: there's a feedback loop where a lack of role models discourages people from joining -- consider how it would feel for you to step into a room with 400 women and no men, and you get an idea of how intimidating it is. |
| 01:58.41 | raster | do we have some hazing/ entry ritual to join? |
| 01:58.44 | cjb | but, we also have a tendency to act like aggressive assholes a lot of the time. |
| 01:58.47 | raster | hjow is this place NOT welcoming? |
| 01:58.57 | edistar | cjb: you know how many people discourage me every day to be even slightly geeky? |
| 01:59.16 | KenYoung | We need a Hello Kitty model Freerunner. |
| 01:59.22 | edistar | KenYoung: good idea! |
| 01:59.23 | cjb | edistar: probably not to the same extent. for example, women receive their own computer years later than men do, on average. |
| 01:59.28 | raster | maybe its the "extreemophile" nature of the male mind |
| 01:59.31 | cjb | pretty hard to be a geek without a computer. |
| 01:59.49 | raster | i was reading somewhere about 6 months ago that men tend to have more people at the extremes |
| 01:59.53 | raster | ie for example extremely dumb |
| 01:59.56 | raster | or extremely smart |
| 02:00.02 | cjb | so, we sit back and say they should just become geeks if they want to, and then we don't give them computers and wonder why they aren't geeks. |
| 02:00.04 | raster | extremely aggressive |
| 02:00.10 | raster | etc. etc. |
| 02:00.15 | edistar | cjb: true, I started pretty late too, though.. never touched a pc before 2002 |
| 02:00.23 | raster | whereas females tend to group statistically in the middleground more |
| 02:00.27 | cjb | raster: I would claim that society encourages men to take bigger risks with their careers. |
| 02:00.27 | raster | as a trend |
| 02:00.43 | raster | the tech world tends to be at tan extreme of involvment |
| 02:00.47 | raster | your life gets focused on it |
| 02:00.49 | tim_abell | cjb you could be onto something there |
| 02:00.53 | *** join/#openmoko slaxxin (n=brian@ip70-178-27-23.ks.ks.cox.net) |
| 02:00.58 | raster | you generally need a higher level of intelligence |
| 02:00.59 | raster | etc. |
| 02:01.08 | cjb | raster: you're claiming that men have a higher level of intelligence than women? |
| 02:01.12 | raster | so it tends to be a domain just more likely to be inhabited by males |
| 02:01.14 | cjb | this is pretty disturbing stuff. |
| 02:01.17 | raster | no i am NOT |
| 02:01.24 | cjb | then why say that? |
| 02:01.25 | raster | did u read? |
| 02:01.28 | tim_abell | uh oh, the caps lock is out |
| 02:01.32 | cjb | haha |
| 02:01.37 | raster | <raster> i was reading somewhere about 6 months ago that men tend to have more people at the extremes |
| 02:01.38 | raster | <raster> ie for example extremely dumb |
| 02:01.38 | raster | <raster> or extremely smart |
| 02:01.50 | cjb | oh |
| 02:01.53 | cjb | ok, I see. |
| 02:01.59 | raster | there tend to be MORE males at the extremes |
| 02:02.02 | raster | boith extremes |
| 02:02.05 | cjb | that sounds suspicious, but okay. |
| 02:02.06 | raster | not more intelligent |
| 02:02.14 | raster | just statistically more males for example iq > 150 |
| 02:02.19 | tim_abell | i follow that, but i suspect if true, that doesn't explain the enourmous difference |
| 02:02.21 | raster | but ALSO more males with iq < 50 |
| 02:02.23 | raster | than femails |
| 02:02.29 | raster | but thats what the studies/stats showed |
| 02:02.31 | tim_abell | i certainly am not the brightest around |
| 02:02.44 | raster | i am NOT saying females are dumber |
| 02:02.46 | cjb | tim_abell: yes; there's a huge danger of being willing to accept a biological explanation when a cultural one is far more likely. |
| 02:02.48 | tim_abell | to use a sample of one |
| 02:02.50 | raster | the averages are the same |
| 02:03.00 | raster | just the "Bell curve" is different between males and females |
| 02:03.00 | KenYoung | Men have wider normal distributions for many characteristics than women do - even things like height. |
| 02:03.00 | cjb | for example, 30 years ago, we thought black people were less smart than white people, on average. |
| 02:03.03 | raster | the spread is different |
| 02:03.16 | cjb | so, people say "hey, that's just the way it is, it's not like we did it". |
| 02:03.32 | raster | KenYoung: yup. |
| 02:03.34 | edistar | this discussion will never be resolved via irc.. |
| 02:03.40 | cjb | (missing the point that we don't educate black people nearly as well as we educate white people.) |
| 02:03.43 | tim_abell | 42 |
| 02:03.45 | tim_abell | did i win? |
| 02:03.48 | cjb | edistar: I think you're right, but it makes me sad. |
| 02:03.53 | raster | thats what i was reading - thoug this ewas more a study on metal things. |
| 02:04.06 | KenYoung | It could be because women have two copies of any gene on the X chrome. It's also why men are more susseptible to many genetic diseases. |
| 02:04.07 | edistar | cjb: but you shouldn't use social explanations when there are biological ones either :) |
| 02:04.29 | cjb | edistar: my point's that the biological ones are much less likely. |
| 02:04.32 | raster | cjb: frankly, i'm tried of thew white-middle-class educated "apology" syndrom |
| 02:04.32 | edistar | cjb: that's what education is for in the end, and scholarship finally |
| 02:04.41 | raster | i'm fed up with it |
| 02:04.57 | KenYoung | If only we *encouraged* women to be taller. |
| 02:05.00 | raster | i know here in .au everyone DOES have equal access |
| 02:05.04 | cjb | anyway, even if there are slightly more men at the edges of the curve, that doesn't explain where the slightly less women at the edges of the curve are, if they aren't here. |
| 02:05.06 | raster | i dont come from a rich family |
| 02:05.07 | cjb | it's statistical. |
| 02:05.16 | raster | i worked my way thru uni |
| 02:05.25 | raster | and used govt help.funding to help me do it |
| 02:05.33 | raster | i dont go blaming the system |
| 02:05.38 | raster | or the society for not being inclusing |
| 02:05.42 | raster | inclusive |
| 02:05.51 | raster | i get up and do somethng that i want to do |
| 02:05.55 | raster | and do what i need to do it |
| 02:06.03 | raster | and stop bitching and moaning about inequality |
| 02:06.05 | tim_abell | the BCS seems to be quite keen to do what's needed to even things out |
| 02:06.06 | raster | the qorld is unequal |
| 02:06.07 | raster | deal with it |
| 02:06.10 | raster | thats life |
| 02:06.24 | tim_abell | http://www.bcs.org |
| 02:06.26 | raster | u have the opportunity to fight it and do what u want |
| 02:06.38 | cjb | and again, that's exactly what we said a few decades ago about black people not being "as smart" as white people. |
| 02:06.59 | cjb | we rushed for the biological explanation. it couldn't possibly be societal factors. |
| 02:07.03 | tim_abell | eg http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=ConWebDoc.4170 |
| 02:07.18 | raster | thats not my problem |
| 02:07.22 | cjb | I mean, just because a boy gets his own computer aged 14 and a girl gets hers after she's already in college, why would that mean that there would be fewer programmers? |
| 02:07.35 | raster | in this country asians outperform whites academically |
| 02:07.37 | raster | by miles |
| 02:08.14 | cjb | sure, that's because of self-selection. the smart asians migrated. |
| 02:08.17 | raster | do the whites go around going "oooh society is to blame! oooh we are so downtrodden! we need special treatment now - we need to be included and need special treatment and university places. we are so disadvantaged" |
| 02:08.20 | raster | bullshit |
| 02:08.26 | cjb | um |
| 02:08.29 | tim_abell | the daily mail does |
| 02:08.32 | raster | no we dont we go apologising for beign such bad white people |
| 02:08.42 | raster | "oh we are so racist. oh we are so bad" |
| 02:08.58 | raster | but as such the asians take all the top places - relative to their % of the population |
| 02:09.05 | raster | they are massively over-represented at universities |
| 02:09.10 | raster | ESPECAILLY the higher degrees |
| 02:09.11 | cjb | it's very commonly researched. for an Asian family to come to the US, they travel a long way. for a Mexican family to come to the US, they go across a border. it's entirely unsurprising that one group is self-selected for people who want to work hard and be well-educated. |
| 02:09.16 | tim_abell | oh, there we go, better link http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=nav.7708 |
| 02:09.20 | raster | but do i complain? no. i'm happy for them to be there |
| 02:09.24 | raster | they get there through hard work |
| 02:09.52 | raster | and white peolpe come from europe to .au |
| 02:09.53 | tim_abell | "pay gaps between men and women persist" that wouldn't help |
| 02:09.55 | raster | asians come from asia |
| 02:09.56 | raster | its closer |
| 02:09.58 | raster | so what? |
| 02:10.02 | ieatlint | nice, we're on a racism/immigration topic |
| 02:10.06 | cjb | dude. I'm not trying to say every disparity should be fixed. I'm trying to say that there are obvious ways in which we discourage women from becoming programmers. |
| 02:10.19 | raster | i disagree |
| 02:10.20 | raster | entirely |
| 02:10.29 | raster | they just dont care about all the techy details |
| 02:10.35 | cjb | What's your argument against the statistic of women getting computers after they've joined college? |
| 02:10.37 | raster | progframming/siftware is techy |
| 02:10.46 | raster | they dont CARE |
| 02:10.48 | slaxxin | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:10.49 | cjb | Are you going to tell me that 14-18 had no effect on what your chosen career would be? |
| 02:10.50 | ieatlint | cjb, society and stereotypes do, but it's not an active belief amongst programmers that women are inferior |
| 02:10.56 | cjb | It's when I did some of the hardest work of my life. |
| 02:11.09 | ieatlint | my best programming teacher was a woman from georgie (the country, heh) |
| 02:11.15 | ieatlint | blah, gorgia |
| 02:11.17 | cjb | I can't imagine what else I'd have done instead if I hadn't had a computer until college. In England, by the time you enter college you've already decided what to study! |
| 02:11.19 | raster | i chose what i wanted when i was a teenager |
| 02:11.22 | ieatlint | heh, or something similarly spelt |
| 02:11.38 | raster | regardless of pressure entirely counter to what i chose |
| 02:11.42 | ieatlint | cjb, that should be true everywhere |
| 02:11.45 | KenYoung | cjb, Every single teenaged girl in the US has a cell phone held up to her ear for at least 18 hours a day - how many are intereseted in writing software for one? |
| 02:11.55 | ieatlint | college is to study your specific field, not gen ed |
| 02:11.55 | cjb | ieatlint: it's not really true in the US; you can declare a major after a while. |
| 02:12.01 | cjb | ieatlint: are you in the US? |
| 02:12.05 | ieatlint | cjb, yes |
| 02:12.12 | ieatlint | and while you can, it's discouraged |
| 02:12.15 | cjb | then you should know that people don't declare their majors immediately. |
| 02:12.17 | ieatlint | people see it as a slacker thing |
| 02:12.26 | raster | cjb: in .au its the same |
| 02:12.27 | ieatlint | uh, 90%+ do |
| 02:12.36 | raster | u go to uni and when u go.. u damn well beter knwo what u want to do |
| 02:12.42 | cjb | raster: that's my point! |
| 02:12.43 | raster | straight into a specific degree |
| 02:12.48 | tim_abell | http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/activities/itgirls looks like people are trying to fix it |
| 02:12.53 | ieatlint | colleges are less likely to accept people who write in their essay "yeah, i dunno what i want to do.. i guess i'll figure it out after a year" |
| 02:12.59 | cjb | why are we expecting women to choose CS if they haven't got a computer when they're deciding what to do with their life? |
| 02:13.00 | raster | i dont see how that makes a difference |
| 02:13.06 | raster | menu have influences as children |
| 02:13.07 | raster | so do women |
| 02:13.10 | cjb | why are we saying it's "their problem" if they decide to do something else? |
| 02:13.18 | raster | and its not our fault as males |
| 02:13.18 | KenYoung | cjb - they have cell phoes, which are computers. |
| 02:13.23 | raster | or as peoepl already here |
| 02:13.28 | ieatlint | cjb, society has stereotypes that put pressure on both men and women |
| 02:13.34 | edistar | cjb: don't know where you got those statistics? |
| 02:13.36 | tim_abell | perhaps we need to model ourselves on other industries that used to have a bad sex inequality problem and follow their lead |
| 02:13.42 | raster | its their problem if they decide not to join us |
| 02:13.43 | cjb | edistar: the FLOSSPOLS study, it's googleable. |
| 02:13.48 | edistar | cjb: okey.. |
| 02:13.49 | raster | if they dont feel they are missing out on anything |
| 02:13.53 | raster | no harm, no foul |
| 02:14.10 | cjb | raster: I think that's logically and ethically ridiculous, but okay. |
| 02:14.10 | ieatlint | frankly, most programmers would love to have more women doing it |
| 02:14.17 | edistar | cjb: at least the people around here (germany) have pcs.. every girl has one at least 4 to 5 years before leaving school |
| 02:14.29 | ieatlint | i'd love to have a girlfriend i could program with, or whom could even understand half of what i say |
| 02:14.30 | edistar | every would be exaggerated, but the vast majority |
| 02:14.36 | raster | cjb: the whole idea is rediculous |
| 02:14.38 | raster | if they care |
| 02:14.39 | torero | i guess anybody would like having more woman doing it ;) |
| 02:14.40 | raster | they can join |
| 02:14.42 | *** join/#openmoko gopi (n=gopi@ppp-71-139-32-52.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 02:14.53 | edistar | torero: depends on the looks ;) |
| 02:14.59 | edistar | just joking |
| 02:15.14 | cjb | *why* are you expecting women who are being withheld computers as children to care about computers? the *reason* you cared about them is that you had one during important years of your teens. |
| 02:15.38 | raster | withheld? |
| 02:15.43 | raster | bbabahaabhhwbhahbbahabhbabhwbahaBhababhahbahb |
| 02:15.44 | edistar | cjb: fact is, women who are not withheld don't care either |
| 02:15.51 | cjb | sure. parents give computers to boys and don't give them to girls. |
| 02:15.52 | ieatlint | cjb, western society as a whole tends to prefer looks over brains when it comes to women, and the perception is (if not the reality) that men prefer to be more competent/smarter than potential spouses... hence, women often feel pressured to not come off as too intelligent for fear of being alone |
| 02:16.05 | cjb | edistar: similarly, we don't expose them to technical female role models. |
| 02:16.05 | raster | man - most of the momen i know spend more time at their pcs/laptops than all the males i know.. who DONT do software |
| 02:16.10 | raster | much moe |
| 02:16.18 | cjb | ieatlint: yes, that makes a lot of sense. |
| 02:16.18 | edistar | I know so many women working with pcs who would rather not anything about it.. while they are writing their maths phd or a physics essay |
| 02:16.21 | raster | i know no female "Denied" a computer ever |
| 02:16.25 | ieatlint | and there are countless exceptions to that, but as whole, society is still that way |
| 02:16.28 | raster | they just dont carfe |
| 02:16.34 | raster | the pc is a way to instant-message friends |
| 02:16.41 | raster | email and browse social sites |
| 02:16.45 | raster | and read blogs |
| 02:16.48 | tim_abell | compare with sales folk |
| 02:16.51 | cjb | raster: I agree that they don't care. Unlike you, I'm willing to investigate *why* they don't care. |
| 02:16.57 | raster | thats the females i know mostly |
| 02:17.02 | tim_abell | also no interest in the rest |
| 02:17.04 | cjb | raster: wow. so, what you're saying is, women are superficial airheads. |
| 02:17.15 | ieatlint | i know a lot of geeky women |
| 02:17.17 | raster | cjb: no. YOU say that |
| 02:17.20 | raster | i never said that |
| 02:17.23 | tim_abell | i think it's a bit too easy to go on anecdotal experience of individual women's motivations |
| 02:17.28 | ieatlint | and they're all far more into other sciences or literature |
| 02:17.36 | raster | they are more cared about human interaction that the details of software |
| 02:17.37 | cjb | sounded like it to me. women aren't programmers because they like instant messaging and social stuff. |
| 02:17.38 | torero | feels the channel is heating up |
| 02:17.42 | raster | they want to interact with peole |
| 02:17.47 | ieatlint | and one of them has told me that they do feel intimidated by male computer geeks |
| 02:17.57 | raster | why do u think women are so heavily represented in industries invovling hoiman->human contact |
| 02:18.04 | edistar | hands out ice cubes |
| 02:18.24 | ieatlint | in part because too many of them have never had a girlfriend and have no idea how to act around the opposite sex, so they get very weird (well, ok, they're already weird... but weirder still) |
| 02:18.26 | cjb | ieatlint: yeah. there are plenty of stories of female free software developers being harrassed or even stalked. |
| 02:18.36 | ieatlint | lol |
| 02:18.40 | torero | wonders if its a good time to ask how to get the wifi working... |
| 02:18.44 | cjb | torero: hee hee |
| 02:18.54 | edistar | ieatlint: well, that's exaggerating a bit |
| 02:18.55 | raster | ieatlint: excuses. i know many males who feel indimidated by women. :) |
| 02:18.55 | ieatlint | well, the issue i've seen is them being left alone as the guys are too afraid to say more than "hi" |
| 02:19.06 | cjb | ieatlint: unfortunately there are both extremes. |
| 02:19.10 | edistar | torero: hide! |
| 02:19.13 | tim_abell | thinks he just accidentally discovered how trolling works |
| 02:19.26 | torero | ducks! |
| 02:19.28 | ieatlint | edistar, which part? |
| 02:19.33 | ieatlint | the not having a girlfriend part? |
| 02:19.33 | raster | cjb: harassment and stalking is just not on. i agree |
| 02:19.45 | raster | cjb: anyone doing that is just wrong. |
| 02:20.02 | ieatlint | because that was expressed to me with people in the 16-22 range, and it was true amongst that age group |
| 02:20.03 | raster | maybe its just the "nerds" i know are normal |
| 02:20.07 | edistar | ieatlint: 'many of them haven't had a girlfriend and can't interact with the opposite sex'.. maybe some, but not a big part |
| 02:20.10 | raster | they spend time at the pub drinking beer |
| 02:20.19 | raster | are married or have girlfriends |
| 02:20.26 | raster | they are well adjusted and able to socialise |
| 02:20.34 | cjb | I agree |
| 02:20.35 | raster | and i see no need to go bending over backwards or changing anything |
| 02:20.43 | cjb | individually, we seem like pretty inclusive people |
| 02:20.51 | cjb | but our communities are not. |
| 02:20.52 | ieatlint | yeah, well, once you mature more it's as much of an issue |
| 02:20.55 | raster | if the women arent interested - thats up to them. i'm not going to harass them inot being interested |
| 02:21.02 | ieatlint | but the point is that the women are scared off early :P |
| 02:21.05 | cjb | raster: you don't think having zero women around is a reason to change anything? |
| 02:21.06 | raster | im not going to whine at them or bother them |
| 02:21.14 | ieatlint | either way, it's not descrimination |
| 02:21.24 | edistar | cjb: it'll change slowly, like it did in the sciences |
| 02:21.29 | raster | they want to be involved - they need to have the initiative - more than happy to help - just like any other male user/nerd |
| 02:21.31 | raster | no different |
| 02:21.32 | torero | is preparing for his knitting class |
| 02:21.41 | *** join/#openmoko malik1972 (n=malik197@e182052090.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 02:21.44 | raster | cjb: i've given up caring |
| 02:21.50 | tim_abell | raster, i think the answer isn't to whine at them, it's to figure out what we can change that affects uptake (i don't know the answers, hence the BCS links) |
| 02:21.51 | edistar | tim_abell: you _are_ a natural talent (troll) |
| 02:22.03 | cjb | ieatlint: there are two things that we would need to solve if we decided that we would like women to be interested in free software communities. |
| 02:22.07 | ieatlint | raster, "happy to help" ... this doesn't describe me, and i'm a geek |
| 02:22.17 | torero | wonders why there are so many old ladies in the class and just one geek |
| 02:22.17 | tim_abell | edistar, i knew i had a role in life |
| 02:22.20 | cjb | the first is the outright stalking or discrimination that comes along. that seems like it should be easy. |
| 02:22.29 | ieatlint | lol |
| 02:22.31 | ieatlint | not so easy |
| 02:22.34 | cjb | the second is actually making walking into a room of 400 guys into an appealing thing. |
| 02:22.41 | cjb | that sounds bloody hard to me. |
| 02:22.47 | ieatlint | not unless you include behaviour classes as a corequisite to programming classes |
| 02:22.52 | emacsen | how's milestone3 working for people? |
| 02:22.56 | malik1972 | raster: hi. is it possible to write an application such that i get different desktops in illume? |
| 02:23.00 | cjb | and, raster can say "hey, it's not my fault it's not appealing, there is no problem here" |
| 02:23.18 | ieatlint | "how not to stare impolitely and accomplish sentences in excess of 5 words that aren't about sex 101" |
| 02:23.18 | cjb | but I try to be an inclusive kind of guy, and I have lots of hobbies and women are at least partially involved in all of the other ones |
| 02:23.24 | edistar | if there is any gal in this channel, she will _never_ _ever_ dare to say it anymore :) |
| 02:23.28 | cjb | and the status quo isn't good enough for me. |
| 02:23.28 | tim_abell | raster, and i think that the reason for caring is not that individual women choose not to join us, but that the stats indicate that there is an overall bias, and this is undesirable |
| 02:23.35 | torero | edistar: lol! |
| 02:23.41 | raster | cjb: i tend to be a "if u want to do something - get off your arse and do it" kind fo person |
| 02:23.50 | cjb | we know that women perform as well as men do on CS exams, in college -- that's also in the FLOSSPOLS study. but they aren't here, and the answer to why not is very complelx. |
| 02:23.56 | raster | i am entirely against "positive discrimination" |
| 02:23.58 | raster | eg |
| 02:24.06 | cjb | raster: privileged people often are those kind of people. |
| 02:24.07 | raster | allocating special university places for "Blacks" |
| 02:24.09 | raster | or "aborigines" |
| 02:24.13 | raster | or "women" |
| 02:24.18 | ieatlint | cjb, the feel more protected in a professional work environment perhaps |
| 02:24.19 | raster | equal acceess to everyone |
| 02:24.21 | raster | no special treatment |
| 02:24.25 | raster | one way OR another. |
| 02:24.29 | ieatlint | if someone starts being creepy, there's more recourse for them |
| 02:24.39 | raster | cjb: i never was privelidged. |
| 02:24.42 | ieatlint | or perhaps they actually realise that money can be made |
| 02:24.44 | cjb | ieatlint: I think lack of role models covers an awful lot of it. If I were a women, why would I want to be here? Who would I talk to? Who would I admire? |
| 02:24.54 | raster | i spent most of my childhood being discriminated against for being german |
| 02:25.04 | emacsen | raster, you're German? |
| 02:25.05 | ieatlint | cjb, i had no real role model |
| 02:25.07 | raster | yes |
| 02:25.12 | raster | i was calle dhitler |
| 02:25.13 | raster | nazi |
| 02:25.14 | KenYoung | cjb, I think in the US, it's family income, not gender, that determines when a kid gets a computer. Every female child of a yuppy couple that I know has a computer as soon as she is capable of spilling juice on it, just like little boys. There's not difference. Zero. |
| 02:25.14 | raster | etc. |
| 02:25.16 | malik1972 | raster: oh my god:-) |
| 02:25.18 | emacsen | raster, You look and sound Australian... |
| 02:25.19 | raster | for most of my childhood |
| 02:25.32 | ieatlint | raster is austrian, through and through |
| 02:25.45 | raster | so i take exception to being labelled "privelidged" |
| 02:25.47 | cjb | KenYoung: again, there was a study, and it disagrees with you. you're welcome to propose alternate studies, or to suggest that my sample size is too small. |
| 02:26.03 | ieatlint | hey raster, what's a good aussie beer? |
| 02:26.08 | raster | my parents were not rich |
| 02:26.15 | raster | in fact i was wone of the pporest at my school |
| 02:26.21 | raster | my schrooclothers were second hand |
| 02:26.22 | raster | not new |
| 02:26.27 | raster | unlike most |
| 02:26.30 | torero | :'( |
| 02:26.37 | raster | (at school) |
| 02:26.41 | tim_abell | raster, i think there's no question that positive discrimination is bad. but fixing the things that discourage women (eg unequal pay) are desirable |
| 02:26.52 | emacsen | *plays a violin as a backdrop for Raster's sad story* |
| 02:26.59 | ieatlint | lol |
| 02:27.03 | raster | parents drove older crappeir cars where evryone else had soem shiny new fancy thing |
| 02:27.03 | cjb | tim_abell: hey, if women wanted equal pay, they could just.. ask for it. and then they'd get it! |
| 02:27.19 | torero | raster: but who's lughing now ehhh! |
| 02:27.22 | tim_abell | cjb, not sure about that |
| 02:27.26 | cjb | tim_abell: (sarcasm) |
| 02:27.29 | tim_abell | oh |
| 02:27.29 | raster | emacsen: just taking exception to being labelled "privelidged" |
| 02:27.33 | tim_abell | feels silly |
| 02:27.50 | raster | just because i have an attitude of NOT treatign anyone specially |
| 02:27.59 | emacsen | raster, I never said you were... I just think you may be going a bit overboard... we all had issues growing up |
| 02:28.06 | cjb | emacsen: (I did) |
| 02:28.12 | emacsen | raster, I'm not dismissing yours, just saying we all had issues |
| 02:28.35 | tim_abell | i had disconcertingly few issues |
| 02:28.38 | cjb | well, I didn't say raster was privileged, but I noted that it's a long-held attitude of people in majority groups to say that minority groups just don't want to {learn, get a job, make more money}. |
| 02:28.43 | cjb | and raster is in a majority group, in this room. |
| 02:28.59 | raster | yup |
| 02:29.09 | emacsen | raster, I could talk about the issues growing up learning disabled and gifted, able to really understand things other people couldn't but unable to make the grades or grasp simple things, things I knew were simple in abstract, but could not get my mind into |
| 02:29.15 | raster | and i stick by "get off your bum and do it" view :) |
| 02:29.32 | cjb | raster: fine. it's a pretty discredited view, in my opinion. |
| 02:29.45 | cjb | we owe more to ourselves than being satisfied with such blatant inequalities. |
| 02:29.47 | ieatlint | cjb, actually, i have it on good authority that all those minorities that came into the US illegal don'T want to {learn, get a job, make more money] |
| 02:29.58 | ieatlint | turns out they're just here to piss off people |
| 02:30.03 | *** join/#openmoko Staticwave_Ace (n=Ace@d57-135-60.home.cgocable.net) |
| 02:30.03 | cjb | huh. whoda thought. |
| 02:30.08 | tim_abell | lol |
| 02:30.15 | raster | emacsen: thats more a matter of you :0 issues of privilege are external factors that put you in an elevated position better off and able to copy/get ahead than others :) |
| 02:30.31 | torero | i give free hughs |
| 02:30.38 | torero | :) |
| 02:30.54 | raster | cjb: i see nothing inequal around here. |
| 02:31.04 | cjb | raster: you're not looking very hard. |
| 02:31.15 | ieatlint | cjb, if you see inquality, and we don't... that means one of two things |
| 02:31.28 | ieatlint | either you need to see that it isn't here, or we need to create some |
| 02:31.32 | ieatlint | i vote for the latter |
| 02:31.45 | raster | HAHAHA |
| 02:31.49 | raster | i vote for it too |
| 02:31.55 | raster | then we will have something to complain about |
| 02:31.57 | raster | :) |
| 02:32.29 | florence_abell | cough |
| 02:33.23 | ieatlint | anyway, there is a disporportionate amount of male geeks to female geeks in electronics and all computer fields |
| 02:33.31 | raster | that is true |
| 02:33.32 | ieatlint | and it's been true since guys were building ham radios |
| 02:33.38 | raster | it'd be nice if it were otherwise |
| 02:33.41 | raster | but hey... |
| 02:34.12 | KenYoung | I'll bet it's been true since guys were sharpening stone tools. |
| 02:34.14 | ieatlint | yeah, as i said, i'd love to meet more women who could understand what i'm saying when i get off on a rant about programming |
| 02:34.25 | slaxxin | twichy dont crash:( |
| 02:34.28 | ieatlint | the most i can settle for, seemingly, is one who understands my political rants |
| 02:34.32 | cjb | ieatlint: *shrug* I'm married to one. There are quite a few. |
| 02:34.32 | raster | ieatlint: same. |
| 02:34.36 | slaxxin | Tichy* |
| 02:34.44 | ieatlint | cjb, does she have friends? :) |
| 02:36.33 | ieatlint | i also wouldn't mind have a girlfriend who had fewer pairs of shoes than her age |
| 02:36.43 | ieatlint | because damnit, i don't care |
| 02:36.56 | florence_abell | lol |
| 02:37.22 | torero | i think programming is unsexy, i started saying that i work for cirque du soleil when a girl asks |
| 02:37.37 | ieatlint | lol |
| 02:37.39 | tim_abell | i feel sorry for my other half putting up with the nerdyness. |
| 02:37.53 | ieatlint | you live in the wrong part of the world then torero |
| 02:38.00 | tim_abell | i tell people i work for a mapping company. much better |
| 02:38.25 | torero | ieatlint: whats the other part of the world where normal girls like programmers? |
| 02:38.39 | ieatlint | the san francisco bay area |
| 02:38.43 | torero | oh! |
| 02:38.47 | tim_abell | my pet hate is being introduced to someone with the line "this is fred, he also knows about computers" |
| 02:38.53 | ieatlint | there's actually a "geek" fetish amongst many women |
| 02:39.09 | torero | takes note |
| 02:39.30 | ieatlint | they also tend to like foreign accents |
| 02:39.35 | torero | then im definitely in the wrong side of the world |
| 02:39.49 | torero | ok i have the accent :) |
| 02:40.03 | ieatlint | yeah, it also doesn't cost $10 for a beer here |
| 02:40.09 | torero | lol! |
| 02:40.26 | torero | ieatlint: yes, maybe its time for a relocation |
| 02:40.50 | tim_abell | if you start from slough it's always time for a relocation |
| 02:40.57 | tim_abell | (I didn't) |
| 02:41.07 | ieatlint | $4 for a pint isn't hard to find here (and i mean good beer, not the crappy US beers) |
| 02:41.21 | cjb | ieatlint: gasoline is a much wider gap. |
| 02:41.29 | *** part/#openmoko malik1972 (n=malik197@e182052090.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 02:41.36 | cjb | (and many people spend more on gasoline than on beer. but not me!) |
| 02:41.36 | *** join/#openmoko death-row (n=pierre@217.20.125.101) |
| 02:41.40 | torero | good that i dont drink gasoline |
| 02:41.49 | ieatlint | if gasoline were alcoholic, i might |
| 02:41.52 | tim_abell | comparing wine prices may be a better start for finding a lady |
| 02:42.00 | ieatlint | $4/gallon here |
| 02:42.08 | tim_abell | unless you are after a ladette |
| 02:42.34 | torero | i bet you will be able to impress a girl with your gas reserve de 2008, in some years |
| 02:42.38 | ieatlint | tim_abell, this is the san francisco bay area... what do we know about wine |
| 02:42.41 | ieatlint | or food |
| 02:42.42 | cjb | ieatlint: gasoline is alcoholic. |
| 02:42.56 | tim_abell | cjb, i was hoping no-one would mention that |
| 02:43.05 | cjb | (both unleaded and leaded gas contain ethanol.) |
| 02:43.07 | tim_abell | conversation.level-- |
| 02:43.08 | cjb | tim_abell: heh |
| 02:43.11 | ieatlint | "two buck chuck" gets you a bottle of wine here |
| 02:43.31 | ieatlint | ok, then brb |
| 02:43.52 | ieatlint | ethanol is even the alochol i can drink without severe intestinal pains |
| 02:44.18 | tim_abell | at risk of being on topic. what happened to all the images and styling for the open moko dialer when installed on the latest 2008.9? |
| 02:44.28 | hipitihop | sorry to distract the residents from the current ot, btw my partner respects my geekiness and although shes not a developer she is more then happy to experiment with her ubuntu desktop and the FR is technically hers... |
| 02:44.58 | cjb | hipitihop: that's cool. has she ever tried the ubuntu forums or IRC? |
| 02:45.01 | hipitihop | ...but at the risk of being boaring, did fso M3 make it out and if so links ? I have read the ml |
| 02:45.15 | ieatlint | hipitihop, my ex liked my geekiness and used linux... she still couldn't understand a word of what i said |
| 02:45.18 | hipitihop | cjb, yes she irc's frequnetly |
| 02:45.28 | cjb | cool |
| 02:45.39 | cjb | does she have good experiences on IRC, generally? |
| 02:45.43 | torero | ieatlint: the keyword is ex, mine liked it too, i guess it wears out |
| 02:46.01 | hipitihop | ieatlint, hehe, mine frequnelty catches herself and says "ah gawd, I actually understood what you said just then" |
| 02:46.02 | ieatlint | torero, no, that's not why she's an ex, heh |
| 02:46.25 | cjb | hipitihop: it did, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenmokoFramework/Status_Update_4 |
| 02:46.34 | cjb | oops, I meant to paste http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone3/ |
| 02:46.40 | cjb | (which that pages links to, anyway) |
| 02:46.47 | hipitihop | she wants me to teach her to code but life and needing more immediate way to earn a buck gets in the way |
| 02:47.00 | ieatlint | just get her a python book |
| 02:47.31 | hipitihop | got that already .... but I'll teach her Smalltalk first ... call me a purist |
| 02:48.09 | raster | hipitihop: i'd start with pillowtalk myself :) |
| 02:48.38 | hipitihop | says 1 point to raster |
| 02:48.57 | raster | :) |
| 02:49.00 | tim_abell | gpe-scap screenshots itself loading. meh. |
| 02:49.03 | raster | (just had to say that) |
| 02:49.27 | ieatlint | teach her useful languages, like visual basic |
| 02:49.39 | ieatlint | i'm midway through convincing raster to add vb support to enlightenment |
| 02:49.48 | hipitihop | although if I start traversing object graphs in my sleep I certainly get smacks of the wrong kind |
| 02:49.58 | raster | kicks ieatlint with a cactus |
| 02:50.15 | ieatlint | raster, dude, what if i bought you a year's supply of beer? |
| 02:50.19 | hipitihop | barfs over his keyboard |
| 02:50.38 | raster | ieatlint: time for food |
| 02:50.39 | ieatlint | hipitihop, ok, that means you have a problem |
| 02:50.40 | raster | lunchies! |
| 02:50.43 | raster | and beer |
| 02:50.46 | raster | so... toolate |
| 02:50.50 | raster | i'm supplying my own beer |
| 02:50.51 | raster | :) |
| 02:50.53 | ieatlint | you never told me a good aussie beer |
| 02:51.05 | ieatlint | and you freaky aussies... it's 8pm |
| 02:51.06 | hipitihop | Coopers |
| 02:51.20 | ieatlint | i do like barrels |
| 02:51.44 | hipitihop | ieatlint, ^ |
| 02:52.51 | hipitihop | cjb, sorry, thanks for the link. |
| 02:53.43 | hipitihop | so anyone running M3 and can summarise what works and doesn't or has that been on the wiki somewhere |
| 02:53.45 | rwhitby | yeah, Coopers |
| 02:54.07 | cjb | hipitihop: everything that worked in M2 seems to work |
| 02:54.08 | hipitihop | gives rwhitby high five |
| 02:54.15 | ieatlint | i'll need to look for it, i think i can get that here |
| 02:54.42 | torero | is it possible to put two or more wireless-key wireless-essid pairs in /etc/network/interfaces? |
| 02:54.53 | torero | for example if i connect from home or work |
| 02:54.54 | hipitihop | ieatlint, there are 2-3 (perhaps more variations) |
| 02:55.47 | ieatlint | coops extra strong vintage, pale ale and premium lager are my choices |
| 02:56.13 | ieatlint | cooprs, rather |
| 02:58.02 | hipitihop | cjb, is sound on suspend/resume fixed ? |
| 02:59.37 | cjb | hipitihop: yeah |
| 02:59.46 | cjb | I made a call to it while it was in suspend and it worked |
| 03:00.19 | hipitihop | cool, sms ? |
| 03:00.53 | cjb | haven't tried yet, apparently it works (as in m2) but has notifications now |
| 03:01.20 | hipitihop | ok, will flash shrotly thanks |
| 03:01.29 | hipitihop | shortly also |
| 03:01.37 | *** join/#openmoko oon (n=oon@ankhoon.net) |
| 03:03.16 | torero | goodnight guys (because we are now sure there are no gals here) |
| 03:03.32 | Tronic | :) |
| 03:03.35 | cjb | sighs. |
| 03:03.55 | *** part/#openmoko torero (n=deepsigh@ti0034a380-dhcp0755.bb.online.no) |
| 03:06.33 | *** join/#openmoko ChandleWEi (n=chandle@210.13.121.62) |
| 03:07.17 | *** join/#openmoko arquebus (n=shintaro@201.139.151.244.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx) |
| 03:08.49 | CVirus | how is FSO milestone 3 ? |
| 03:08.57 | *** join/#openmoko laBrute (n=wax@218.1.111.178) |
| 03:10.14 | *** join/#openmoko Zanoi (i=zanoi@zanoi.net) |
| 03:11.17 | hipitihop | is Dale Maggee here or someone that knows how to run zenity-gui on ubuntu ? last time I tried I could not use it due to needing sudo etc |
| 03:11.33 | tim_abell | http://imagebin.ca/view/3rgrGyr.html - my freaky dialer after "opkg install openmoko-dialer2". any ideas? |
| 03:12.11 | tim_abell | or should i ditch that and use the qtopia one |
| 03:12.26 | tim_abell | stumbles through the mist |
| 03:19.38 | laBrute | hi guys, is there anyway to make the OM 2008.8 working on qemu ? |
| 03:22.53 | hipitihop | never mind regarding zenity... downloaded latest from http://users.on.net/~antisol/frutil and it works a treat. Flashing M3 now |
| 03:24.14 | ljp | ya, use the qtopia one from qtopia.net. |
| 03:28.11 | *** join/#openmoko kdean06 (n=Kevin@fsf/member/kdean06) |
| 03:29.00 | *** part/#openmoko kdean06 (n=Kevin@fsf/member/kdean06) |
| 03:31.34 | tim_abell | okay, i give up. fat and dirty install it is... |
| 03:31.39 | laBrute | ok |
| 03:34.11 | CVirus | cjb: no white screen of death ? |
| 03:34.14 | *** join/#openmoko weirdedout (n=gonePost@220-253-56-105.VIC.netspace.net.au) |
| 03:34.51 | *** join/#openmoko DieMumiee (n=DieMumie@W0f27.w.pppool.de) |
| 03:36.39 | cjb | CVirus: not yet, haven't been using it long |
| 03:37.04 | CVirus | cjb: does it resume if you suspend for a couple of minutes ? |
| 03:38.12 | CVirus | I assume after FSO is ready ... devs will start rewriting most of the apps and base them on FSO ? |
| 03:38.17 | CVirus | i mean the dialer, .. et |
| 03:38.18 | CVirus | etc* |
| 03:38.50 | cjb | CVirus: yes |
| 03:39.10 | CVirus | which question are you addressing ? |
| 03:39.17 | cjb | resumes |
| 03:39.31 | CVirus | cool |
| 03:39.52 | CVirus | cjb: any idea how long can the battery last ? |
| 03:41.05 | cjb | nope |
| 03:41.14 | cjb | it hasn't been released for enough hours for me to be able to tell you |
| 03:41.34 | cjb | suggests that if people are curious about FSO-3 they should just go flash it.. |
| 03:42.29 | *** join/#openmoko cheng (n=cheng@xGagB214.WH1.TU-Dresden.De) |
| 03:42.45 | CVirus | cjb: no FreeRunner yet :-( |
| 03:42.48 | CVirus | still saving |
| 03:43.54 | pjz | is in the process of flashing FSO3 |
| 03:44.54 | pjz | cjb: does it suspend? |
| 03:45.04 | cjb | it does if you press the power button |
| 03:45.09 | cjb | I haven't seen it suspend by itself |
| 03:45.17 | pjz | manual suspend is okay |
| 03:45.29 | pjz | is used to manually locking he kbd on his phone anyway |
| 03:50.09 | KenYoung | Is there a general belief that FSO has completely reliable suspend/resume on incoming call etc, or is it still buggy like 2007.2 and 2008.8 ? |
| 03:50.57 | cjb | the kernel is buggy |
| 03:51.00 | cjb | so the distros are buggy. |
| 03:51.18 | KenYoung | cjb - OK, thanks. That's what I feared. |
| 03:51.51 | Infoport | *sigh* I wish I still had a good 2007.2 distro-- once you have to reflash, you can only be updated to the last image and NOT all of the opkg upgrades that happened afterward. :-( |
| 03:53.34 | KenYoung | Infoport, How recent would the 2007.2 distro have to be for you to consider it good? |
| 03:54.38 | pjz | boots FSO3, whee! |
| 04:02.25 | Infoport | KenYoung well I have a copy from July or sometime, but there were upgrades to be had through opkg...now anyone who had to reflash is back to way before that |
| 04:03.14 | KenYoung | Infoport, Oh, OK. Now I understand. |
| 04:05.51 | Infoport | KenYoung hey you were talking about updates and new features in Orrery-- would those only be in your development code, and not in repos yet? I didnt see new tab options |
| 04:07.55 | *** join/#openmoko slaxxin (n=brian@ip70-178-27-23.ks.ks.cox.net) |
| 04:10.32 | tim_abell | sees first hand the result of not believing the rootfs md5 error before flashing |
| 04:12.13 | KenYoung | Infoport, If you have the version which shows the constellations in color, that's the most up-to-date released version. I have a new version which I hope to release this weekend, which has new features like the ability to zoom in on portions of the sky tracked out with your finger or stylus, pan with your finger, etc. |
| 04:12.42 | KenYoung | oops "traced out", not "tracked out". |
| 04:13.16 | slaxxin | tim did u install fsoIII? |
| 04:13.34 | slaxxin | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:14.02 | tim_abell | no, haven't tried it |
| 04:14.11 | tim_abell | think it's time i went to bed! |
| 04:14.12 | *** join/#openmoko froksen (n=froksen@87.54.254.190) |
| 04:14.19 | tim_abell | 2 hours isn't really enough sleep |
| 04:14.46 | KenYoung | tim_abell, You can't go to bed until your phone is fully functional. |
| 04:15.00 | tim_abell | you got it ;) |
| 04:15.56 | tim_abell | woo, wireless up |
| 04:16.02 | tim_abell | i like this fat and dirty |
| 04:19.28 | tim_abell | hu oh |
| 04:19.40 | tim_abell | regrests running numpty physics |
| 04:19.48 | tim_abell | how do i restart a level? |
| 04:19.50 | *** join/#openmoko fobos (n=fobos@78.90.88.244) |
| 04:19.57 | cjb | r on the keyboard |
| 04:20.20 | tim_abell | cheers |
| 04:22.55 | mwester | you're doomed now. |
| 04:23.46 | mwester | I showed that on my N800 to my wife last Sunday. I didn't get my N800 back for three days. |
| 04:24.06 | rwhitby | mwester: same with my 7yr old |
| 04:25.54 | tim_abell | nuts |
| 04:26.00 | tim_abell | back in a week... |
| 04:26.07 | mwester | That's gotta be the coolest little application I've seen in years. Brilliant concept - simplicity of gui, so obvious yet so captivating... |
| 04:26.12 | slaxxin | its too cool |
| 04:26.49 | slaxxin | so the fat&dirty workg good? |
| 04:27.53 | *** join/#openmoko DieMumiee (n=DieMumie@W0f27.w.pppool.de) |
| 04:28.58 | *** join/#openmoko atul (n=qvantel@61.16.248.242) |
| 04:29.45 | tim_abell | well, the game is. didn't get much further... |
| 04:29.48 | tim_abell | :) |
| 04:30.01 | *** join/#openmoko ccube_ (n=ccube@ssh.ccube.de) |
| 04:30.02 | tim_abell | all the handy apps seem to have desktop icons |
| 04:30.27 | *** join/#openmoko DocScrutinizer (n=jr@p5493ECF1.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 04:31.02 | *** join/#openmoko opendeep (n=pradeep@61.16.248.242) |
| 04:31.08 | cjb | mwester: the n800 touchscreen seems much better |
| 04:31.12 | cjb | (than the openmoko's) |
| 04:31.56 | *** join/#openmoko mbuf (n=shakthim@61.16.248.242) |
| 04:31.58 | mwester | cjb: I've not tried the om -- but somebody submitted a touchscreen patch that might help. |
| 04:32.17 | cjb | oh, cool. |
| 04:33.10 | tim_abell | yay, lev 3 |
| 04:33.52 | cjb | got to level 6-7 and noticed it suddenly getting *really* hard. |
| 04:38.21 | *** join/#openmoko charlie137 (n=charlie@firewall.tw.openmoko.org) |
| 04:39.21 | nullpuppy | on what? |
| 04:44.39 | *** join/#openmoko dwb (n=david@pdpc/supporter/active/dwb) |
| 04:45.38 | *** join/#openmoko tedo (n=cta@HSI-KBW-078-042-027-007.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) |
| 04:46.02 | CVirus | pjz: how is it so far ? |
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| 05:20.19 | hipitihop | anyone here running FSO M3 ? |
| 05:21.09 | budfive5 | yep |
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| 05:26.21 | beni_ | morning |
| 05:26.33 | playya | moin |
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| 05:35.42 | hipitihop | anyone running fso m3 can tell me if there is a way to write/send sms ? |
| 05:37.29 | dbmoodb | hi there i can't get openmoko-terminal2 to install on 2008.8 .... ah how do i force it .... (error 17 bad sig ...) |
| 05:37.43 | *** join/#openmoko TankC (n=no@64.203.117.66) |
| 05:37.46 | TankC | Phew ;) |
| 05:37.57 | TankC | I just revived my FR's dead battery |
| 05:38.30 | beni_ | i have checked the Tomtom car charger specs, it provides 5V at 2000mA |
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| 05:40.02 | dbmoodb | anyone ? |
| 05:40.30 | hipitihop | dbmoodb, there is a force option on opkg |
| 05:40.38 | dbmoodb | really ? i tried... how ? |
| 05:44.12 | hipitihop | dbmoodb, sorry, there are various -force-* options but does not seem to be any specific for sig |
| 05:44.46 | dbmoodb | yeah i know. and i seem to have some dep hell maybe ? |
| 05:45.01 | dbmoodb | should i remove the angstrong feed ? |
| 05:46.29 | hipitihop | dbmoodb, sorry I no longer have 2008.8-updated loaded so can't confirm valid feeds or otherwise |
| 05:46.44 | hipitihop | currently trying fso M3 |
| 05:46.46 | *** part/#openmoko Dunedan (n=dunedan@phoenitydawn.de) |
| 05:46.48 | dbmoodb | OH ok. that fixed one of my packages |
| 05:46.48 | *** join/#openmoko Dunedan (n=dunedan@phoenitydawn.de) |
| 05:50.38 | hipitihop | can anyone point me to the correct feeds for FSO M3 , I need to update my /etc/opkg/*.conf files |
| 05:59.19 | rwhitby | hipitihop: I thought fso3 had the shr feeds preinserted ... |
| 06:00.10 | hipitihop | rwhitby, doesn't seem so, seems the *.conf files have same as fso-testing | unstable |
| 06:00.31 | hipitihop | only checked a couple all-conf & arm4 |
| 06:00.32 | rwhitby | fso-testing is what they should have |
| 06:01.26 | hipitihop | sorry, they have e.g. http://my-distribution.org/remote-feed//armv4t |
| 06:01.55 | CVirus | hipitihop: figured out how to SMS in FSO m3 ? |
| 06:02.12 | hipitihop | CVirus, no |
| 06:02.19 | hipitihop | CVirus, you ? |
| 06:02.34 | *** join/#openmoko flat (n=bkaplan@c-98-210-154-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 06:02.40 | CVirus | no FreeRunner here .. just curious |
| 06:04.22 | hipitihop | certainly the new illume intergation/gsm registration is way better... coming along nicely |
| 06:04.51 | CVirus | http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=specs.git;a=blob_plain;f=html/index.html;hb=HEAD ... why isn't org.freesmartphone.GSM.SMS accessible ? |
| 06:05.06 | *** join/#openmoko two3four (n=erik@81-233-151-113-no82.business.telia.com) |
| 06:05.11 | CVirus | can FSO do SMS ? |
| 06:05.35 | rwhitby | hipitihop: hmm - I thought mickey|zzZZzz said he's set the feeds to shr/fso-testing |
| 06:06.10 | hipitihop | rwhitby, clearly not :-( so is that your recommendation ? |
| 06:06.13 | rwhitby | but you're right - they are not changed |
| 06:06.28 | rwhitby | let me test it first |
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| 06:08.56 | rwhitby | sed -i -e 's|my-distribution.org/remote-feed/|shr.bearstech.com/fso-testing/ipk|' *.conf |
| 06:08.59 | rwhitby | oh crap |
| 06:09.01 | rwhitby | Upgrading frameworkd on root from 0.8.2+gitr0+248637c1264624aa08de40c2bbea96c418e0702e-r0 to 0.8.2+gitr248637c1264624aa08de40c2bbea96c418e0702e-r0... |
| 06:09.13 | rwhitby | note that the git revision formats don't match |
| 06:09.23 | rwhitby | (but it's the same git hash) |
| 06:09.44 | rwhitby | that means that mickey did the golden build differently from how the feeds are built :-( |
| 06:10.09 | *** join/#openmoko HauDyr (n=kim@wnn73219.wireless.dtu.dk) |
| 06:10.20 | rwhitby | So I can't recommend any feeds for fso3 images. |
| 06:10.53 | rwhitby | All I can recommend is flashing the fso-testing image (which should be the same as the fso-milestone3, but who knows for sure), and use that feed to update it. |
| 06:11.11 | CVirus | can i run FSO on my computer ? |
| 06:11.21 | hipitihop | rwhitby, testing or unstable ? |
| 06:11.30 | rwhitby | testing |
| 06:11.50 | hipitihop | I had unstable until this morning, then flashed to M3 and they are not the same |
| 06:11.54 | rwhitby | If someone sees mickey|zzZZzz tonight - point the above out to him please. |
| 06:12.23 | *** join/#openmoko KenSentMe (n=jeroen@213-132-206-101.adsl.nlhosting.nl) |
| 06:12.28 | hipitihop | rwhitby, thanks for taking a look |
| 06:14.53 | hipitihop | CVirus, have another link ? I can't seem to get past the head of this page, I get forbidden on http://docs.freesmartphone.org/org.freesmartphone.GSM.SMS.html |
| 06:15.22 | CVirus | why isn't it working ? |
| 06:15.32 | CVirus | it is forbidden |
| 06:15.40 | CVirus | 403 Forbidden - Error lookup file |
| 06:15.45 | *** join/#openmoko rmoravcik (n=rmoravci@gtsgw.ttc.cz) |
| 06:15.49 | CVirus | why ? |
| 06:15.55 | hipitihop | ??? |
| 06:16.15 | CVirus | why isn't it accessible ? |
| 06:17.09 | *** join/#openmoko playya (n=playya@p579B8EA6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 06:17.17 | beni_ | hm, how can i tell my gta02 to do fastcharge? |
| 06:17.29 | beni_ | /sys/devices/platform/s3c2410-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0008/chgmode dies not exist on my hone |
| 06:17.32 | beni_ | phone |
| 06:17.48 | CVirus | can i run FSO on my computer ? |
| 06:19.17 | rwhitby | hipitihop: I've sent an email to devel with those opkg upgrade results. |
| 06:20.11 | *** join/#openmoko |FiLiP| (n=filip@d5152E303.access.telenet.be) |
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| 06:22.13 | hipitihop | rwhitby, thanks |
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| 06:27.25 | hipitihop | Ho do we contact to resolve forbidden for the following link ? http://docs.freesmartphone.org/org.freesmartphone.GSM.SMS.html |
| 06:32.44 | *** join/#openmoko bentob0x (n=laurent@ip-213-49-80-173.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 06:33.06 | beni_ | what does /sys/devices/platform/s3c2440-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0073/charger_adc tell us? |
| 06:33.10 | beni_ | i got a 7 there |
| 06:36.39 | *** join/#openmoko HauDyr (n=kim@wnn73219.wireless.dtu.dk) |
| 06:37.02 | CVirus | hipitihop: mickey|zzZZzz ? |
| 06:38.18 | CVirus | hipitihop: have you got any clue if i can run FSO on my pc or not ? |
| 06:38.39 | *** join/#openmoko playya (n=playya@p579B8EA6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
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| 06:44.38 | hipitihop | CVirus, I have no idea, but I did manage to run zhone at one point. |
| 06:45.02 | polz | hmm |
| 06:45.24 | polz | I've just tried installing FSO on my 1973 |
| 06:45.25 | *** join/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@229-219.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 06:45.30 | polz | and the sound is all gravely |
| 06:45.30 | CVirus | hipitihop: can you help me with that ? |
| 06:45.56 | polz | it's fine with qtopia... |
| 06:46.08 | hipitihop | CVirus, obviously anything to do with raw access to gsm/sim/gps etc won't work as the hardware is ot there |
| 06:46.20 | polz | so does anyone here know which init string Qtopia sends to the modem ? |
| 06:46.31 | CVirus | hipitihop: i'm sure |
| 06:46.39 | polz | or at least where to look for this information ? |
| 06:46.43 | *** join/#openmoko DieMumiee (n=DieMumie@W0f27.w.pppool.de) |
| 06:47.46 | hipitihop | CVirus, I can't remember which instructions I followed off the wiki to install what I needed on my ubuntu desktop. I'm still working so don't have time now but if you are around later I can try |
| 06:48.22 | CVirus | hipitihop: sure .. ping me anytime .. will reply if i'm around |
| 06:48.51 | *** join/#openmoko geaaru (n=geaaru@host247-213-dynamic.30-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 06:49.19 | gromez | calendar app in FSO MS3 doesn't work ? |
| 06:49.35 | *** join/#openmoko Melchiorro (n=melchior@ppp121-45-181-232.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net) |
| 06:50.05 | hipitihop | gromez, same here |
| 06:50.25 | gromez | maybe a feature for the next milestone ;) |
| 06:51.01 | CVirus | I don't think it will work ... org.freesmartphone.PIM is still under development |
| 06:51.02 | gromez | http://trac.freesmartphone.org/roadmap well, for MS5 |
| 06:51.43 | hipitihop | CVirus, I followed this to get Zhone on my Ubundu desk. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Zhone |
| 06:52.10 | CVirus | I assume after FSO is ready ... devs will start rewriting most of the apps and base them on FSO ? |
| 06:52.27 | CVirus | hipitihop: cool .. thanks alot .. will try to adjust accordingly to suit my gentoo |
| 06:52.36 | hipitihop | but that's just Zhone, obviously many of the deps are sorted so it's a start as for running the entire stack, I don't know |
| 06:52.51 | polz | how can I write and send an SMS to a person who is not in my addressbook |
| 06:52.55 | polz | using Zhone |
| 06:52.56 | polz | ? |
| 06:53.47 | gromez | http://trac.freesmartphone.org/ticket/127 < someone can confirm this bug in FSO MS3 |
| 06:53.49 | *** join/#openmoko almien (n=OJW@87-194-198-122.bethere.co.uk) |
| 06:53.58 | CVirus | polz: http://docs.freesmartphone.org/org.freesmartphone.GSM.SMS.html .. the page is not working yet |
| 06:54.17 | gromez | and i will reopen it |
| 06:55.17 | CVirus | gromez: can you send messages now after you fixed it ? |
| 06:55.54 | gromez | CVirus: if a receive a message, then, the message tool is enabled |
| 06:56.14 | gromez | but if the messagebox is empty, icon is disabled |
| 06:56.26 | CVirus | can you send messages with FSO3 ? |
| 06:57.08 | gromez | hum i didn't have time to try it, i will test this week end |
| 06:57.18 | gromez | but reception is ok |
| 06:57.34 | CVirus | hmm |
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| 07:00.18 | weirdedout | Guys, does it look like FSO 3 fixes the echo problem for callers? |
| 07:00.22 | *** join/#openmoko anno^da- (n=anno^da@p5B07F664.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 07:04.50 | polz | weirdedout: even if it does, it introduces some serious voice distortion on my 1973 |
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| 07:07.16 | weirdedout | bummer, thanks polz. |
| 07:10.07 | polz | weirdedout: np. |
| 07:12.16 | Hopscotch | good morning |
| 07:12.45 | *** join/#openmoko simon_ (n=simon@w208.wist.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 07:14.41 | methril|work | morning |
| 07:22.15 | *** join/#openmoko El_Senator (n=El_Senat@wartburg.auh.dk) |
| 07:23.07 | hipitihop | methril|work, Hopscotch , morning |
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| 07:33.22 | AntiSol | hi |
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| 07:35.46 | AntiSol | I'm hoping someone can help me out: I've just installed FSO milestone 3 but when I do 'opkg update' it tries to get feeds from 'my-distribution.org'. can someone advise what is the correct place to be getting feeds for milestone 3? is 'http://downloads.openmoko.org/repository/testing/' safe? or should I be using 'http://shr.bearstech.com/fso-testing/ipk/'? or something else??? |
| 07:36.17 | *** part/#openmoko tim_abell (n=tim@host-84-9-149-2.dslgb.com) |
| 07:38.41 | *** join/#openmoko khorben (n=dont@port-83-236-217-161.static.qsc.de) |
| 07:38.55 | rwhitby | AntiSol: see my latest message on the devel mailing list |
| 07:39.05 | rwhitby | there are *no* compatible fso3 feeds at the moment |
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| 07:46.26 | AntiSol | thanks rod, good thing I didn't just try one of those two then! ;) |
| 07:47.05 | ieatlint | i think the emphasis should've been on the word "compatible" :P |
| 07:47.37 | *** join/#openmoko BDo (n=bdonnett@linagoraberri.pck.nerim.net) |
| 07:47.58 | AntiSol | ?? |
| 07:48.18 | AntiSol | you're saying that some of the stuff on the other feeds would work, in theory? |
| 07:48.31 | ieatlint | no |
| 07:49.08 | ieatlint | it's a stupid joke, listen to rwhitby, i just lurk and say stupid things |
| 07:49.34 | AntiSol | haha ok then... hence me being confused (which is not hard to do!) |
| 07:49.36 | AntiSol | ;) |
| 07:50.34 | Infoport | are there common websites with Qtopia apps? |
| 07:50.57 | Infoport | other than from the main feed of course |
| 07:51.38 | ieatlint | i do not believe there are other sources |
| 07:51.59 | ronny | any idea when fso3 compatible feeds will appear? |
| 07:52.07 | ieatlint | i'm not sure i've met anyone not officially involved with the qtopia project who writes apps for qtopia |
| 07:52.12 | AntiSol | haha I was just going to ask that |
| 07:52.30 | *** join/#openmoko leinir (n=leinir@amarok/usability/leinir) |
| 07:55.06 | ieatlint | beer good |
| 07:55.39 | AntiSol | free beer better |
| 07:55.58 | rwhitby | ronny: depends on mickey|mdd08's response to my email on the devel list |
| 07:56.06 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@Ma474.m.pppool.de) |
| 07:56.14 | ieatlint | free beer is cheap beer... it is not better |
| 07:56.22 | |FiLiP| | Infoport: you mean like http://qt-apps.org/ ? |
| 07:56.34 | AntiSol | free good beer then |
| 07:57.24 | ieatlint | AntiSol, i'll give you a keg of beer if you can go a normal day without using any conjugation of the word "to be" |
| 07:57.41 | *** join/#openmoko playya (n=playya@p579B8EA6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 07:57.46 | CVirus | haha |
| 07:57.54 | TankC | free beer == good beer |
| 07:58.13 | ieatlint | last time i got free beer, it was bud light... i rest my case. |
| 07:58.48 | TankC | doesn't matter, it was free |
| 07:58.52 | playya | my last free beer was kölsch |
| 07:58.56 | playya | not even better |
| 07:59.06 | playya | and not really beer |
| 07:59.33 | AntiSol | eeeew bud light |
| 07:59.38 | AntiSol | i stand corrected |
| 07:59.40 | *** join/#openmoko DieMumiee (n=DieMumie@W0f27.w.pppool.de) |
| 08:00.29 | ieatlint | lol |
| 08:00.42 | ieatlint | playya, and where are you from? düsseldorf? |
| 08:00.49 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 08:01.47 | playya | born in gelsenkirchen, living in villingen, studying in offenburg |
| 08:02.03 | ieatlint | i have two friends in gelsenkirchen |
| 08:02.10 | ieatlint | they have similar attitudes :P |
| 08:02.14 | *** join/#openmoko l403 (n=l@85.132.159.231) |
| 08:02.16 | Infoport | |FiLiP| thanks! I'll check out some of the apps there! |
| 08:02.21 | playya | i prefer rothaus |
| 08:02.30 | ieatlint | i wish i cold get altbier here :( |
| 08:03.20 | *** join/#openmoko Sargun_Screen (n=sargun@64-142-51-251.dsl.static.sonic.net) |
| 08:03.53 | playya | i don't like altbier too |
| 08:04.23 | ieatlint | you must be an outcast |
| 08:04.52 | playya | i prefer pils and weizen |
| 08:05.20 | ieatlint | well, that covers most of the german beers, so you're set |
| 08:05.56 | playya | I'm a rothaus fan for at least 10 years |
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| 08:27.37 | hipitihop | Does 2008.8-updated uses FSO framework for core phone/sms and system events ? |
| 08:28.00 | *** join/#openmoko rafa (n=rafa@200.123.158.181) |
| 08:28.14 | Tig| | hipitihop: not that I am aware, I did not think they are using anything from the framework yet |
| 08:28.36 | Tig| | as I don't think any of the qtopia stuff can speak framework |
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| 08:30.27 | hipitihop | Tig|, ah ... I must be preempting things. I certainly feel FSO is the future in regards to a consistent framework |
| 08:30.28 | *** join/#openmoko prjktdtnt (n=trash@ip24-253-22-70.lv.lv.cox.net) |
| 08:31.07 | prjktdtnt | What files do you need from download server to properly flash to FSOm3? |
| 08:31.21 | Tig| | yeah FSO defiantly feels like a saner way to do things :) |
| 08:31.22 | hipitihop | Tigl, is it the only stack which currently uses dbus or do most apps do so ? except qtopia |
| 08:31.53 | Tig| | afaik it is the only stack to make everything talk through dbus |
| 08:32.13 | hipitihop | I'm just trying to gestimate speed of progress (polish and usability) once fso framework has all issues resolved and is stable |
| 08:32.37 | *** join/#openmoko mickey|mdd08 (n=mickey@92.116.172.66) |
| 08:32.55 | prjktdtnt | what is the difference between the bzipped and the summary version of the rootfs? |
| 08:33.00 | Tig| | prjktdtnt: download the uImage and openmoko root fs for your phone from : http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone3/ |
| 08:33.11 | Tig| | you want the summary version to flash |
| 08:33.12 | *** join/#openmoko bentob0x (n=laurent@ip-213-49-80-173.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 08:33.14 | prjktdtnt | ok |
| 08:33.27 | prjktdtnt | thanks Tig| |
| 08:33.41 | Tig| | make sure you grab the gta02 files if you have a freerunner! |
| 08:33.53 | prjktdtnt | Tig| double checked that when I downloaded |
| 08:33.56 | *** join/#openmoko emilis_info (n=emilis@clt-84-32-58-67.vdnet.lt) |
| 08:33.57 | mickey|mdd08 | bzipped files are for the guys who do dual boot w/ sd |
| 08:33.59 | prjktdtnt | thanks for the reminder :) |
| 08:34.02 | mickey|mdd08 | or multi-boot |
| 08:34.05 | hipitihop | iow, anything that needs to interact with system events etc would need to talk dbus, however general linux apps should still run on top of fso due to x11 and other UI farmeworks being present, correct ? |
| 08:34.06 | prjktdtnt | mickey|mdd08 thanks :) |
| 08:34.26 | Tig| | hipitihop: yep :) |
| 08:34.31 | prjktdtnt | and do I need the modules or is that only if i'm using the bzipped |
| 08:34.32 | prjktdtnt | ? |
| 08:34.45 | Tig| | no you don't need the modules file :) |
| 08:34.51 | prjktdtnt | awesome thanks :) |
| 08:35.03 | Tig| | no problem :) |
| 08:35.05 | mickey|mdd08 | rwhitby: bummer |
| 08:35.06 | mickey|mdd08 | shoragan: ping? |
| 08:35.12 | prjktdtnt | now FSO is supposed to become the base for the main OM distros eventually correct? |
| 08:35.24 | charlie137 | prjktdtnt: no |
| 08:35.41 | charlie137 | prjktdtnt: it is supposed to merge with 2008 |
| 08:35.42 | mickey|mdd08 | depends on what you mean w/ FSO |
| 08:35.49 | hipitihop | mickey|mdd08, is that bummer in regards to M3 feeds ? |
| 08:35.57 | mickey|mdd08 | ya |
| 08:36.07 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@78.42.63.42) |
| 08:36.11 | hipitihop | yip, sorry my fault discovering that ;-) |
| 08:36.12 | mickey|mdd08 | most unfortunate |
| 08:36.19 | mickey|mdd08 | nah, thanks for finding |
| 08:36.21 | shoragan | mickey|mdd08, pong |
| 08:36.28 | prjktdtnt | charlie137: ok so that will be the new back-end for OM distros then and the current 2008+ will be the continued front-end |
| 08:36.45 | *** join/#openmoko CVirus (n=Satan@41.196.132.228) |
| 08:36.45 | mickey|mdd08 | shoragan: which bitbake version did you use for the build? we have fscked up the git revs |
| 08:36.51 | shoragan | ahrg, i probably borked the feed config |
| 08:36.53 | shoragan | 1.8.10 |
| 08:36.58 | shoragan | last upstream release |
| 08:37.01 | charlie137 | prjktdtnt: well, the plan is to use the framework from FSO |
| 08:37.11 | shoragan | :/ |
| 08:37.22 | ronny | mickey|mdd08: how are the plans for fso3 feeds ? |
| 08:37.24 | prjktdtnt | charlie137: ok, thanks for the info :) |
| 08:37.34 | charlie137 | prjktdtnt: so if you consider that the framework _is_ FSO, then we use FSO yes |
| 08:37.34 | mickey|mdd08 | shoragan: i have been building w/ 1.8.x head |
| 08:37.41 | shoragan | ah |
| 08:37.53 | shoragan | i didn't kown that |
| 08:37.54 | mickey|mdd08 | ronny: no plans from me, to be honest |
| 08:37.58 | mickey|mdd08 | doing feeds is out of scope for my team |
| 08:38.00 | PBeck | ahoi |
| 08:38.15 | ronny | hmmk |
| 08:38.16 | charlie137 | Still the question that remain is : do we keep Qtopia apps in the future ? |
| 08:38.31 | charlie137 | I am still wondering about this point... |
| 08:38.34 | ronny | mickey|mdd08: btw, why the heck this utterly painfull ringtone? |
| 08:38.38 | mickey|mdd08 | everyone is wondering :) |
| 08:38.55 | mickey|mdd08 | ronny: it's a classy ringtone and exposes that we can play all kind of formats |
| 08:38.56 | charlie137 | mickey: yes I guess so :) |
| 08:38.57 | *** join/#openmoko tomer (n=tomer@89-138-154-116.bb.netvision.net.il) |
| 08:38.59 | mickey|mdd08 | .sid in that caes |
| 08:39.01 | mickey|mdd08 | case |
| 08:39.20 | ronny | .sid? |
| 08:39.31 | mickey|mdd08 | ya |
| 08:39.39 | mickey|mdd08 | google for it :) |
| 08:39.41 | ronny | oO |
| 08:39.44 | mickey|mdd08 | like i said, it's a classic |
| 08:39.49 | mickey|mdd08 | ~google sid |
| 08:39.55 | ronny | why the heck does it matter to have c64 music? |
| 08:40.00 | mickey|mdd08 | looks at apt |
| 08:40.12 | mickey|mdd08 | if you ask that question, the freerunner is the wrong device for you |
| 08:40.14 | hipitihop | in regards to qtopia the tensions is speed to functional < ---- > consistent integration |
| 08:40.16 | mickey|mdd08 | it's about freedom |
| 08:40.31 | AntiSol | ronny: because sid tones are teh *AWESOME*!!! |
| 08:40.41 | mickey|mdd08 | it's about things we can do no one else can do |
| 08:40.55 | AntiSol | although I'd have picked something other than the arkanoid music. R-type is the best IMHO |
| 08:40.56 | ronny | mickey|mdd08: freedom is pretty usefull when you still lack limbs to actually use it |
| 08:41.25 | lindi- | mickey|mdd08: wasn't the ringtone non-free? ;)) |
| 08:41.26 | raster | can lick his nose with his tongue... does that count? |
| 08:41.41 | hipitihop | suggests that longterm qtopia apps will struggle to look well intergated with the rest of the ui in fso |
| 08:41.45 | AntiSol | only problem with sids is they make me not answer the phone, because I'm too busy boogying to the awesome tune! |
| 08:41.50 | mickey|mdd08 | lindi-: free for non-commercial use... |
| 08:42.03 | lindi- | mickey|mdd08: indeed |
| 08:42.56 | Tig| | well you can pretty much guarantee that no-one else in the room will have the same ringtone (linux expos don't count) :) |
| 08:42.57 | ronny | hmm, why cant you guys defer all the toy factors till basic things work |
| 08:43.19 | AntiSol | mickey: is that confirmed? that sids are free? or are they just considered abandonware? I'd imagine there would have had to be some kind of ruling for the HVSC to exist... |
| 08:43.34 | mickey|mdd08 | ronny: basic things work fine in FSO |
| 08:43.48 | mickey|mdd08 | ronny: and I'm working on zhone in my free time |
| 08:43.52 | mickey|mdd08 | so I do whatever i want :D |
| 08:44.20 | mickey|mdd08 | and actually .sid demonstrates ring tones using the gstreamer engine in the Openmoko framework |
| 08:44.24 | mickey|mdd08 | (just for the records) |
| 08:45.54 | prjktdtnt | I'm flashing FSO right now, waiting to see what it comes out looking like |
| 08:46.06 | mickey|mdd08 | AntiSol: well, I've read all the info about HVSC and they have gone through hoops to check whether it's legal for them to distribute that stuff or not |
| 08:46.43 | lindi- | AntiSol: it is probably legal to distribute those non-commercially yes but since that doesn't meet DFSG at least debian will use different ringtone |
| 08:47.02 | AntiSol | yeah I'm just reading the copyright notice at http://www.hvsc.c64.org/Info/index.html |
| 08:47.19 | CVirus | mickey|mdd08: why isn't this accessible http://docs.freesmartphone.org/org.freesmartphone.GSM.SMS.html |
| 08:47.37 | mickey|mdd08 | CVirus: it's empty |
| 08:47.47 | mickey|mdd08 | all SMS handling is going via .SIM until we have PIM |
| 08:47.48 | AntiSol | I'd expect it's in the 'abandonware' category then for non-commercial use |
| 08:48.10 | CVirus | mickey|mdd08: no docs for now then ? |
| 08:48.11 | ronny | mickey|mdd08: what are the plans for syncing contacts/calendar entries/messags to other devices |
| 08:48.37 | mickey|mdd08 | CVirus: SMS is empty and not needed atm. |
| 08:48.44 | mickey|mdd08 | CVirus: check .SIM for docs on how to send SMS |
| 08:48.49 | lindi- | AntiSol: but note that selling phones does not count as non-commercial use :) |
| 08:48.57 | CVirus | mickey|mdd08: cool .. thanks :-) |
| 08:49.09 | prjktdtnt | does anyone know where SHR can be downloaded and how well it's working? |
| 08:49.14 | mickey|mdd08 | ronny: for the framework? we're investigating our new PIM framework |
| 08:49.22 | AntiSol | yeah but they're selling the phone, not the software... nice little loophole there... ;) |
| 08:49.27 | mickey|mdd08 | ronny: for the other distros, i don#t know atm. |
| 08:49.32 | *** join/#openmoko CM_work (i=893deae1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-04fdcee198efa2a0) |
| 08:49.44 | ronny | mickey|mdd08: will that hit milestone4? |
| 08:49.45 | lindi- | AntiSol: but they are going to include the software in the phone |
| 08:49.45 | mickey|mdd08 | AntiSol: well, you would certainly not be allowed to _ship_ fso on a FR |
| 08:50.09 | mickey|mdd08 | ronny: first bits yes, ms4 is about gsoc integration and PIM was one of the gsoc projects |
| 08:50.46 | mickey|mdd08 | although syncing as you know is a complex topic |
| 08:50.54 | mickey|mdd08 | and framework is not about apps |
| 08:50.56 | AntiSol | good point. so that means it'll change in future then I guess. meh, doesn't bother me, the ability to play sids is what's really important ;) |
| 08:51.01 | mickey|mdd08 | so i have no idea when apps will appear that can use that |
| 08:51.01 | *** join/#openmoko Any_Key (n=Any_Key@rt94.highlink.ru) |
| 08:51.11 | mickey|mdd08 | AntiSol: yep :) |
| 08:51.30 | mickey|mdd08 | mentions he's IRCing using his FreeRunner GPRS |
| 08:51.57 | *** join/#openmoko TAsn2 (n=tasn@89.1.211.251.dynamic.barak-online.net) |
| 08:52.00 | AntiSol | mickey: nice! |
| 08:52.06 | ronny | mickey|mdd08: well, right now i got 2 main issues with my freerunner, 1. battery seems to go empty damn fast and 2. cant sync stuff with my pc |
| 08:52.17 | AntiSol | small text though? |
| 08:52.31 | AntiSol | ronny: what do you want to sync? contacts? |
| 08:52.31 | CVirus | ronny: FSO 3 ? |
| 08:52.34 | mickey|mdd08 | AntiSol: no, i'm just abusing the FR's gprs |
| 08:52.38 | mickey|mdd08 | i have a laptop here |
| 08:52.44 | ronny | CVirus: yeah |
| 08:52.48 | mickey|mdd08 | i couldn't type that fast otherwise ;) |
| 08:52.56 | AntiSol | oic, a gateway... hehehe |
| 08:52.56 | CVirus | ronny: how long does the battery stay alive ? |
| 08:52.59 | mickey|mdd08 | ronny: battery is ok for me w/ suspend |
| 08:53.07 | ronny | CVirus: few hours |
| 08:53.26 | CVirus | others reported 24 hours |
| 08:53.37 | mickey|mdd08 | 2 days should be ok |
| 08:53.40 | mickey|mdd08 | (on gta02) |
| 08:54.02 | mickey|mdd08 | with the occasional call |
| 08:55.12 | AntiSol | is there a way to get contacts into fso3? even if it's putting them on the sim? |
| 08:55.12 | CVirus | mickey|mdd08: I assume after FSO is ready ... devs will start rewriting most of the apps and base them on FSO ? like the dailer, calender, ... etc |
| 08:55.38 | mickey|mdd08 | CVirus: i assume the same. i don't _know_ though |
| 08:55.42 | *** join/#openmoko TAsn1 (n=tasn@89.1.53.232.dynamic.barak-online.net) |
| 08:56.03 | mickey|mdd08 | i'll probably know more after my next .tw trip |
| 08:56.12 | AntiSol | also, when composing a text message in fso3 i only seem to be able to send to an existing contact, i can't just type the number manually... am i missing something? |
| 08:56.32 | CVirus | AntiSol: http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=specs.git;a=blob_plain;f=html/org.freesmartphone.GSM.SIM.html;hb=HEAD#RetrievePhonebook |
| 08:56.40 | mickey|mdd08 | AntiSol: no, that's because we had not enough time to do more |
| 08:56.48 | mickey|mdd08 | patches appreciated :) |
| 08:57.10 | AntiSol | I would love to if I could code more than a bash script! ;) |
| 08:57.20 | mickey|mdd08 | heh, python is even simpler than bash |
| 08:57.29 | mickey|mdd08 | so that's no excuse :) |
| 08:57.36 | ronny | hmm |
| 08:57.42 | CVirus | mickey|mdd08: I don't think it's even that important to have this in zhone |
| 08:57.52 | CVirus | zhone is just for testing the framework as far as i can understand |
| 08:58.04 | ronny | hmm |
| 08:58.19 | AntiSol | yeah I've been looking into python a bit, and I might have to start messing about with it soon. and submit highly amateurish patches... ;) |
| 08:58.35 | mickey|mdd08 | CVirus: yeah |
| 08:58.40 | mickey|mdd08 | AntiSol: cool! |
| 08:58.58 | mickey|mdd08 | CVirus: i'd wish we had a definite set of apps basing on FSO, but alas we don't have |
| 08:59.02 | mickey|mdd08 | one step after another |
| 08:59.11 | CVirus | one step after another :-) |
| 08:59.13 | *** join/#openmoko christooss (n=matic@BSN-95-218-159.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) |
| 08:59.13 | mickey|mdd08 | getting the framework solid is the first step |
| 08:59.23 | CVirus | I highly appreciate that |
| 08:59.34 | CVirus | devs need a solid framework :-) |
| 08:59.41 | AntiSol | it does look very nice and easy. I'm a master VB/Delphi coder in that other, evil world, and I should be able to move to python pretty easily from the looks of it |
| 08:59.49 | mickey|mdd08 | ya, most developers do. endusers don't understand though and it looks like too many endusers bought FreeRunners |
| 09:00.17 | CVirus | mickey|mdd08: we shouldn't care about those in the mean time i guess |
| 09:00.33 | mickey|mdd08 | yeah |
| 09:00.37 | mickey|mdd08 | there _will_ be apps |
| 09:00.41 | CVirus | mickey|mdd08: is FSO a paid OM work .. may I ask ? |
| 09:00.51 | CVirus | mickey|mdd08: I mean do they pay you to work on it ? |
| 09:01.06 | CVirus | or it is your own voluntary work ? |
| 09:01.14 | ronny | mickey|mdd08: the freerunner was kinda hyped wrong, i really had the impression it was made for enduseres |
| 09:01.39 | mickey|mdd08 | CVirus: it started as voluntary, but then Om realized (finally) that they need it. it's now 80% funded by Om |
| 09:01.50 | CVirus | interesting |
| 09:02.05 | mickey|mdd08 | ronny: yeah, marketing is to blame here. I always said it's not a consumer device yet to anyone who asked |
| 09:02.20 | CVirus | did OM even start marketing yet ! |
| 09:02.26 | raster | better late than never |
| 09:02.26 | raster | :) |
| 09:02.27 | mickey|mdd08 | unfortunately yes |
| 09:02.28 | mickey|mdd08 | *cough* |
| 09:02.31 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@mne69-9-88-163-116-163.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 09:02.31 | ronny | well, im a hacker, so its not that much of an issue |
| 09:02.38 | mickey|mdd08 | nods to raster |
| 09:02.46 | AntiSol | ronny: agreed, the marketing stuff said that it was a consumer-grade device, but it's not...yet... it will be though, and by that time the guys like you and me who stuck with it will have the coolest, most customized awesome phones on the planet... |
| 09:02.52 | Tm_T | hi kids |
| 09:03.12 | mickey|mdd08 | hardware is _almost_ consumer grade |
| 09:03.12 | ronny | expect for the fact that all apps i hack aint suitable for phones |
| 09:03.15 | mickey|mdd08 | but software is far from it |
| 09:03.24 | raster | mickey|mdd08: btw: http://www.rasterman.com/files/illume-new-01.png |
| 09:03.26 | ronny | mickey|mdd08: why only allmost? |
| 09:03.27 | raster | mickey|mdd08: btw: http://www.rasterman.com/files/illume-new-02.png |
| 09:03.29 | raster | mickey|mdd08: btw: http://www.rasterman.com/files/illume-new-03.png |
| 09:03.32 | Daramarak2 | Is there anything wrong with beginning to develop apps for the freerunner now? |
| 09:03.34 | *** join/#openmoko alephnull (n=alok@122.167.65.126) |
| 09:03.38 | ronny | (the hardware)? |
| 09:03.38 | raster | (ignore the clock app - a test app i use) |
| 09:03.50 | raster | working on an... improved theme |
| 09:03.59 | mickey|mdd08 | ronny: gprs and gfx are spoiling the experience a bit |
| 09:04.08 | CVirus | mickey|mdd08: I don't think that anyone can tell that the hardware is consumer ready ... we haven't tested alot of stuff yet I guess ? |
| 09:04.09 | mickey|mdd08 | on gprs... slowly waiting for the pngs to load... |
| 09:04.17 | mickey|mdd08 | CVirus: true |
| 09:04.18 | AntiSol | mickey: I 2nd ronny's question - it seems pretty solid hardware-wise to me... |
| 09:04.21 | raster | will be eventually doing some major surguery inside illume to make it easy to flip configs and update esily |
| 09:04.31 | CVirus | mickey|mdd08: I mean .. how can you tell that there's no hardware obstacle behind the white screen of death ? |
| 09:04.35 | raster | i'm just busy with other paid work right now |
| 09:04.40 | raster | so i dont spend much time on this |
| 09:04.41 | mickey|mdd08 | raster: uuh nice. more light |
| 09:04.48 | raster | i just started redoign the keyboard |
| 09:04.51 | mickey|mdd08 | more firendly |
| 09:05.07 | raster | as the kbd was utterly boring |
| 09:05.08 | raster | :) |
| 09:05.17 | Gnutoo | hello, i don't find the correct alsamixer setting for setting the headphones on ASU...what keyword should i look for...i looked for stereo...but my handfree thing is mono on ASU(was stereo on 2007.2) |
| 09:05.25 | CVirus | raster: this is cool |
| 09:05.46 | raster | doing a theme... properly |
| 09:05.51 | raster | dotting i's and t's takes forever |
| 09:05.58 | raster | wel corssing t's |
| 09:05.58 | raster | :) |
| 09:06.02 | raster | and dotting i's |
| 09:06.20 | raster | u have to consider how it will reisze, scale with screen dpi etc. |
| 09:06.27 | raster | e has really basic screen dpi scaling support atm |
| 09:06.29 | raster | its an env var |
| 09:06.34 | raster | i need to break it out to real runtime config |
| 09:06.46 | raster | edje now supports it too |
| 09:06.47 | AntiSol | gnutoo: check out http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_1973_audio_subsystem |
| 09:07.08 | AntiSol | the numbers on the diagram correspond to the control number in the .state file |
| 09:07.11 | AntiSol | HTH |
| 09:07.18 | ronny | btw, is the freerunner config daemon gconf compatible? |
| 09:07.19 | Gnutoo | AntiSol, thanks...i thought it was only for gta01 |
| 09:07.28 | lindi- | ronny: config daemon? |
| 09:07.34 | raster | config daemon? |
| 09:07.38 | raster | there is one? |
| 09:07.52 | AntiSol | seems to work for gta02 as well, though I haven't played with that stuff very much yet, on my 'to do' list... |
| 09:07.58 | ronny | the dbis api thats saving config data to yaml files |
| 09:08.02 | CVirus | mickey|mdd08: Which milestone targets FSO's GPS API ? |
| 09:09.28 | mickey|mdd08 | CVirus: been there since ms2 |
| 09:09.34 | CVirus | bad me |
| 09:09.38 | mickey|mdd08 | :) |
| 09:09.44 | *** join/#openmoko DieMumie1 (n=DieMumie@W0f27.w.pppool.de) |
| 09:09.59 | mickey|mdd08 | well, you have a point |
| 09:10.02 | mickey|mdd08 | it's not on docs |
| 09:10.05 | CVirus | ah |
| 09:10.06 | mickey|mdd08 | since it's not our invention |
| 09:10.07 | CVirus | hehe |
| 09:10.20 | CVirus | link ? |
| 09:10.31 | hipitihop | is the fso development using any unit testing framework and if so are the test cases available as packages or otherwise ? |
| 09:10.45 | mickey|mdd08 | CVirus: gpysy.freedesktop.org iirc |
| 09:10.51 | CVirus | thank you |
| 09:11.06 | mickey|mdd08 | hipitihop: we have some tests, but unfortunately no full python unit testing yet |
| 09:11.17 | mickey|mdd08 | hipitihop: this is one major task before we reach 1.0 |
| 09:11.23 | CVirus | Folks, please stay tuned, we're currently suffering some hardware issues and are trying to get things back up and running as quick as possible. |
| 09:11.38 | CVirus | hehe |
| 09:11.50 | mickey|mdd08 | raster: amazing, can't wait! |
| 09:12.19 | hipitihop | mickey|mdd08, so that suggests your group does not practice tdd |
| 09:12.21 | raster | mickey|mdd08: its based on the new e17 theme. (new default - not in yet as its not 100% complete) |
| 09:12.38 | CVirus | http://gypsy.freedesktop.org/ |
| 09:12.40 | raster | mickey|mdd08: BUT this means it saves time in the long run as i can re-use the theme work |
| 09:13.05 | ronny | mickey|mdd08: is PreferencesAPI gconf-compatible? |
| 09:13.05 | raster | right now its a direct e17 "new" theme + extensions for illume, no overrides of original desktop theme |
| 09:13.07 | beni_ | what was that command to read the devices revision? |
| 09:13.19 | ronny | hmm |
| 09:13.32 | ronny | nm, i just found the specs |
| 09:13.35 | mickey|mdd08 | hipitihop: correct. unfortunately we're not there yet. but I'm serious about having this before 1.0 |
| 09:13.49 | mickey|mdd08 | beni_: cat /proc/cpuinfo? |
| 09:13.54 | mickey|mdd08 | beni_: at+cgmr? |
| 09:14.26 | beni_ | mickey|mdd08: second |
| 09:14.50 | CVirus | needs to get his broken elbow casted :( |
| 09:15.20 | mickey|mdd08 | ronny: not at this point of time -- see early discussions about gconf's deprecation on the mailing list |
| 09:15.54 | ronny | well, gconf is kinda bad stuff |
| 09:15.59 | mickey|mdd08 | the successor from the gnome team is not ready though as well |
| 09:15.59 | mickey|mdd08 | so we just did something to get info about our use cases |
| 09:16.05 | ronny | (stupid xml madness) |
| 09:16.28 | Gnutoo | the sound...seems strange...i don't know how to describe it....like when you remove the ground on the headphones but voice is ok |
| 09:16.29 | ronny | mickey|mdd08: there is a gconf sucessor? |
| 09:16.37 | ronny | mind to point me to it? |
| 09:16.38 | mickey|mdd08 | ya |
| 09:16.47 | mickey|mdd08 | i don't know the name offhand |
| 09:16.54 | mickey|mdd08 | check the smartphones-standards archives |
| 09:16.56 | hipitihop | mickey|mdd08, at the risk of sounding critical or teaching grandma to suck eggs, and believe me I have respect for FSO and you guys for your work to date, but IMHO this should have been in place from the start. Unit test should be done up front prior to actual code. It actually accelerates your development |
| 09:17.02 | mickey|mdd08 | we talked about that some months ago |
| 09:17.08 | mickey|mdd08 | hipitihop: i agree. |
| 09:17.12 | mickey|mdd08 | hipitihop: and i know |
| 09:17.29 | mickey|mdd08 | hipitihop: but yet i had no team when i started and did not know whether my plans would work out |
| 09:17.38 | mickey|mdd08 | hipitihop: so i didn't do it right from the start. |
| 09:17.56 | mickey|mdd08 | nothing i can do about that know except requiring it before we reach 1.0 |
| 09:18.01 | hipitihop | mickey|mdd08, as consumers of the code or developers we could could submit bugs in the form of executable bugs. |
| 09:18.21 | mickey|mdd08 | yeah. trust me, I'm a university guy, I know about the merits of TDD |
| 09:18.29 | mickey|mdd08 | but still this time i did not do it. bad me |
| 09:18.36 | ronny | hmm |
| 09:18.48 | ronny | sometimes testing is hellish tho |
| 09:19.00 | Gnutoo | it must be a setting problem... |
| 09:19.14 | Gnutoo | at least I hope |
| 09:19.27 | ronny | (im writing a lib thats abstracting vcs's, there is basically no way to have complete checks testcases) |
| 09:21.48 | charlie137 | : but there are some test cases |
| 09:21.57 | hipitihop | ronny, it is even more hellish when you don't have the confidence to change your code because you are not confident that you will break something. automated unit tests encode your intentions and give you confidence to refactor mercilessly |
| 09:22.04 | charlie137 | hipitihop: but there are some test cases |
| 09:22.56 | charlie137 | hipitihop: we just don't use it enough, that is a pity |
| 09:23.49 | raster | every test you spend time writing is a gamble |
| 09:23.52 | ronny | hipitihop: yeah, thats why i recently started partial tests for the lib, works out well, but i will never be able to veryfy some things in a generic way |
| 09:23.53 | mickey|mdd08 | hmm, irc is low bandwidth enough so i actually get calls |
| 09:23.58 | raster | u spend time X on the test suite |
| 09:24.03 | mickey|mdd08 | so gprs + gsm is _kind of_ working |
| 09:24.33 | raster | u ASSUME more than time X will be saved in "hunting" bugs that a test suite will instantly point out |
| 09:24.44 | raster | u also have time Y spend in debugging/fixing the test suite |
| 09:24.48 | raster | test suites are not bug-free |
| 09:24.55 | raster | so u cant just assume the test suite is perfect |
| 09:25.03 | ronny | raster: well, just writing a test-suite made me find like 10 bugs i didnt even notice |
| 09:25.13 | ronny | so unittests kick ass |
| 09:25.19 | raster | so u hope X+Y < bug hunting time normally |
| 09:25.27 | raster | ronny: just reading code can do that too |
| 09:25.28 | raster | :) |
| 09:25.32 | raster | seriously tho |
| 09:25.34 | charlie137 | raster: yes, but bad tests are better than no tests at all. Once they work you can modify the code and make sure you didn't break anything |
| 09:25.39 | raster | if i did have a full test suite for most of my libs |
| 09:25.44 | raster | it'd be 20x the size of the libs |
| 09:25.55 | raster | and i wouldnt have written a fraction of what i have maanged to do |
| 09:26.04 | raster | so i would have achieved much less |
| 09:26.14 | raster | its ALWAYs a tradeoff |
| 09:26.21 | raster | you are making a bet |
| 09:26.34 | ronny | raster: also i refactor often, all the tests find stupid bugs very fast |
| 09:26.40 | raster | tyhat time spent in test suite is < time spent without it |
| 09:26.59 | raster | of course u are stupid writing a library/daemon with nothnig to "excercise it" |
| 09:27.07 | raster | its like shouting in a vacuum |
| 09:27.08 | raster | :) |
| 09:27.19 | raster | but a full test suite is another matter |
| 09:27.24 | mickey|mdd08 | ya, zhone has been our "testing" code for the framework |
| 09:27.34 | mickey|mdd08 | but still i'd like to have real unit testts |
| 09:27.36 | raster | mickey|mdd08: imho zhone is probably a good middleground |
| 09:27.42 | raster | it does form a "test suite" |
| 09:27.51 | raster | somehtnig to make the wheels turn |
| 09:27.57 | ronny | raster: i think a full test suite == all checks that are required to check the behaviour fits |
| 09:27.58 | raster | a full test suite is gerat in theory |
| 09:28.04 | raster | but it *IS* a time sink |
| 09:28.09 | raster | a very large one |
| 09:28.09 | AntiSol | the problem I have with the 'test suite' theory is that if you write the tests, you also know how to beat them - you tend to write your software to pass the tests whic doesn't neccessarily reflect real-world usage. |
| 09:28.20 | charlie137 | I hope one day we can have a test suite that spend days only making phone call, sendind messages, etc... |
| 09:28.25 | hipitihop | raster, with all due respect that and taking on board all your reasoning, in practice one's gut feeling is wrong. It is also about communicating your intent to someone that follows you. I know you're great, but if I changed your keyboard code I would have nothing to back me up and make sure I have not broken any of your assumptions |
| 09:28.27 | raster | ronny: u'd be surprised how big that is for a sufficiently complex system |
| 09:28.53 | mickey|mdd08 | charlie137: agreed. we can not go 1.0 before that. we will have to lay out the grounds when I'm in .tw |
| 09:29.07 | charlie137 | mickey: full ack |
| 09:29.08 | raster | hipitihop: correct. you wouldnt. but i really dont have time to write a test suite for it |
| 09:29.17 | raster | itd wither make more useful code that does something |
| 09:29.24 | raster | or spend time not going anywhere writign a test suite. |
| 09:29.28 | ronny | raster: thats why i try to design for testability |
| 09:29.43 | ronny | if its easy to tests, its usualy nicely decoupled and modular |
| 09:29.44 | raster | ronny: easier said than done |
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| 09:29.56 | ronny | raster: refactoring helps |
| 09:29.56 | charlie137 | the test suite should do stuff like : turn antenna off and one 100 times, send 100 messages to an other phone, etc... |
| 09:30.07 | hipitihop | if you write tests first, they represent your design and also act as a todo list. You know you're done when all your tests pass. |
| 09:30.11 | charlie137 | *off and on |
| 09:30.13 | raster | i invite peopel to please write the test suite |
| 09:30.17 | raster | patches accepted |
| 09:30.24 | raster | always |
| 09:30.28 | raster | the funny thng is |
| 09:30.31 | raster | i have found |
| 09:30.56 | mickey|mdd08 | charlie137: yep. we still have not a clear idea about timing / command order issues w/ the modem. automated tests can help us here |
| 09:31.00 | raster | 95%+ (number puleld out of arse) of peopl;e goign around preaching things like test suites, unit tests etc. will never actually helpu and write them |
| 09:31.07 | raster | or they do some token effort to try prove their point |
| 09:31.12 | raster | then never help in writing the mountain of tests |
| 09:31.14 | raster | just a few |
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| 09:31.41 | raster | i wrote a "test suite" for evas (expedite) |
| 09:31.45 | charlie137 | mickey: yes, in fact the reason why I didn't write the "do each thing 100 times" test is because it fails :P |
| 09:31.50 | raster | no one has extended it to test all of the things evas objects can do |
| 09:32.00 | mickey|mdd08 | charlie137: hehehe, right |
| 09:32.03 | charlie137 | for example trying to turn the antenna of and on many times fails |
| 09:32.06 | raster | and i'm not surprised - it'd be 100 times the current size |
| 09:32.08 | raster | :) |
| 09:32.26 | mickey|mdd08 | raster: *nod* but expedite rocks |
| 09:32.31 | mickey|mdd08 | it even looks good |
| 09:32.39 | raster | i wish the time existed to go write all those test |
| 09:32.41 | raster | not just correctness |
| 09:32.44 | raster | performance too |
| 09:32.52 | ronny | hmm |
| 09:32.54 | raster | i find that with all the focus on "unit tests" to test if it breaks |
| 09:33.04 | raster | there is also a lack of "did you just make it 50% slower?" tests |
| 09:33.16 | ronny | i tihnk many of those things should be done via static checking |
| 09:33.23 | raster | again - i'd love to have the time and luxury to cover all that theory |
| 09:33.30 | ronny | i dont really want to test for buffer-overflows |
| 09:33.31 | raster | but in the end, a test suite doesnt make users happy |
| 09:33.36 | hipitihop | I understand all the arguments against and the last thing I want to do is preach. All I can say is until it becomes part of one's development philosophy one will actually experience that they develop faster then without. The misconception is they take extra time. |
| 09:33.40 | ronny | the compiler toolchain should find them |
| 09:33.43 | raster | it doesnt give a user something to sovle their problems |
| 09:34.09 | raster | and so it tends to always play a distant second fiddle to "Features and efficiency" :( |
| 09:34.50 | hipitihop | why can't end users execute the unit tests and post their failures ? |
| 09:34.53 | raster | hipitihop: i've spent time on test suites. as i said - they canbe helpful, but i prefer to write "useful apps" |
| 09:34.57 | raster | the apps ARE the test suites |
| 09:35.12 | raster | "hey you broke app X - dialog Y's button is now all squished!" |
| 09:35.16 | raster | :) |
| 09:35.27 | ronny | gui testing is pain |
| 09:35.28 | raster | u now have a useful app... AND something to crank the qheels |
| 09:35.39 | raster | ronny: very much so - maybe thats why i keep going on about how hard it is |
| 09:35.59 | ronny | it helps to decouple things from guis |
| 09:36.04 | raster | ronny: when u are rendering stuff - and often the behavior of the system in the end is interactive, a test suite is a massive bit of work |
| 09:36.10 | charlie137 | raster: as far as the framework is concern, the tests are simple to write : the chance they have to be buggy is negligible compared to the insurance they provide concerning the framework code. |
| 09:36.25 | ronny | (but i have to admit im far behind with the unittests of pida) |
| 09:37.00 | Daramarak2 | Problems with gui and testing is that some of the bugs results in the widgets just not looking good. And thats hard to automate. |
| 09:37.12 | raster | Daramarak2: yup |
| 09:37.18 | raster | or off-by-1 pixels stuff |
| 09:37.22 | raster | where sometiems that is ok |
| 09:37.26 | raster | and what is acceptable |
| 09:37.31 | Daramarak2 | Yeah |
| 09:37.35 | raster | (eg a rounding down/up difference on centering) |
| 09:37.39 | raster | but in some cases not |
| 09:37.55 | raster | then based on your output |
| 09:38.01 | ronny | hmm, i prefer not to depend on pixels |
| 09:38.06 | hipitihop | raster, I don't want to belabor the point or piss you off as I appreciate your efforts, |
| 09:38.08 | raster | what format of dithering based on what output engine was selected |
| 09:38.14 | raster | may or may not match or be desirable |
| 09:38.15 | raster | etc. |
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| 09:38.22 | raster | hipitihop: :) |
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| 09:38.34 | raster | hipitihop: i just think that there is a moderated middle-gorund |
| 09:38.35 | charlie137 | (still for gui, you can test that the memory is correctly released when you destroy widgets) |
| 09:38.56 | raster | charlie137: you may not release the memory |
| 09:39.00 | raster | ch u may garbage collect |
| 09:39.01 | raster | or cache |
| 09:39.05 | raster | or re-cycle some of it |
| 09:39.06 | raster | ... |
| 09:39.07 | raster | :) |
| 09:39.22 | raster | i just find the best solution is coding habits |
| 09:39.29 | hipitihop | agreed UI testing an additional layer and usually a pain. But depends on the UI framewwork as to how hard it is to instrument |
| 09:39.30 | raster | i wrote code that does |
| 09:39.44 | raster | thing_create() {....} |
| 09:39.55 | raster | instantly write thnig_free() {....} |
| 09:40.09 | raster | for every thing sub-alloc instantly put in a free for it |
| 09:40.12 | Daramarak2 | But asides from guis, I think test before code, and make every bug a new test. Steps to reproduce make many and quick unittests. |
| 09:40.12 | raster | even if u dont use it yet |
| 09:40.19 | raster | so u dont forget later |
| 09:40.30 | raster | just habits like |
| 09:40.44 | hipitihop | agrees with Daramarak2 |
| 09:40.48 | raster | if (str && (!strcmp(str, "whatever"))) |
| 09:40.55 | raster | just habits of always checking stuff |
| 09:41.02 | ronny | hmm |
| 09:41.11 | ronny | not writing c kill loads of those |
| 09:41.16 | charlie137 | Daramarak2: yes, the best practice is to write a test for it before fixing a new bug |
| 09:41.32 | raster | ronny: it kills the silly ones |
| 09:41.37 | ieatlint | ronny, so does not dereferencing null :) |
| 09:41.39 | raster | it tends to make u much less aware though |
| 09:41.56 | raster | when u start getting complacent "oh it will just be gc';d for me" |
| 09:42.05 | raster | u stop de-referencing objects |
| 09:42.08 | ronny | well, its a language issue |
| 09:42.11 | raster | u keep them around aand u forget they are there |
| 09:42.13 | raster | still reffed |
| 09:42.14 | hipitihop | and if you think something has a bug or thing it works in a praticular way then simple, write a test to prove your hypothesis. Frequently the results are surprising |
| 09:42.21 | raster | i tned to like it in my face |
| 09:42.22 | raster | :) |
| 09:42.23 | ronny | c has no way to automate solving common bug causes |
| 09:42.49 | ieatlint | it's a programmer issue, not a language issue |
| 09:42.58 | mickey|mdd08 | ya, factor language into account. it's actually a breeze to write unit tests w/ high level languages. i wouldn't do it in C either :D |
| 09:43.10 | hipitihop | but yes unit testing is easier/harder depending on language |
| 09:43.12 | raster | i'd love to see someone tackle writign a test suite for e |
| 09:43.14 | raster | eg |
| 09:43.24 | raster | "when vlc goes fullscreen u sometimes get a ghost window" |
| 09:43.25 | ronny | c is just a mess |
| 09:43.26 | raster | ie |
| 09:43.36 | raster | first u need to write an emulation of vlc's behavior in an isolated x client |
| 09:43.45 | raster | that happens to reproduce the same bug |
| 09:43.47 | raster | RELIABLY |
| 09:43.58 | raster | and as its result is also part of a race condition - this may be hard |
| 09:44.11 | raster | THEN u need a way to run such a test and test for the "ghost window" |
| 09:44.17 | raster | which tiself is tricky |
| 09:44.26 | ieatlint | highrer level languages are why i need a 2ghz computer to browse the web when in 2000 i was using like 300mhz |
| 09:44.35 | raster | as u eithe rneed to put in lots of probe code within the wm to regularly trawl for states - if it is that state |
| 09:44.44 | raster | or a human needs to spot it and go "ooh thats wrong |
| 09:44.45 | raster | :) |
| 09:44.49 | hipitihop | raster, are you primarily in pythong or C ? |
| 09:44.54 | raster | hipitihop: c |
| 09:45.04 | raster | hipitihop: a and down to asm if i need it |
| 09:45.07 | ieatlint | pythong makes it sound a lot more attractive though |
| 09:45.11 | mickey|mdd08 | raster actually hates python :D |
| 09:45.15 | raster | yup |
| 09:45.28 | mickey|mdd08 | much like i can't stand C ;) |
| 09:45.28 | ronny | ieatlint: higher level languages dont mean decrased performance, incappable language implementors cause decreased performance |
| 09:45.29 | hipitihop | any c and a dude would :-) |
| 09:45.32 | raster | my unhappiness with pyhton has increased thanks to cyhon |
| 09:45.34 | mickey|mdd08 | glad we have dbus in the middle ;) |
| 09:45.35 | ieatlint | and you let evas/edje/etc bindings into python... for shame |
| 09:46.01 | ronny | ieatlint: after all subsets of python can be optimized to code thats faster than a normal c implementation of the same thing |
| 09:46.02 | ieatlint | ronny, they basically do, it's a question of how much decreased performance generally |
| 09:46.05 | hipitihop | agrees with ronny |
| 09:46.22 | raster | ieatlint: i had nothnig to do with them... i'm happy for people to have bindings! |
| 09:46.27 | ieatlint | that would depend on the c libraries you were relying on methinks |
| 09:46.27 | mickey|mdd08 | raster: let me mention that if you had used glib/gobject, you would have got sane bindings for free :D |
| 09:46.52 | ronny | mickey|mdd08: gobject in c us not usable |
| 09:46.57 | ronny | it just is not |
| 09:47.03 | ieatlint | i'm using it |
| 09:47.10 | ronny | its a clusterfuck of verbose shit thats hard to understand |
| 09:47.17 | mickey|mdd08 | would love to marry Vala w/ EFL |
| 09:47.19 | raster | mickey|mdd08: to late... and it'd just have caused other problems instead |
| 09:47.20 | raster | :) |
| 09:47.30 | ronny | vala is mostly sane |
| 09:47.35 | raster | also pythoin was not even a twinkly in most peoples eyes when starting efl |
| 09:47.36 | ieatlint | you want something hard to understand, look at GtkTree* stuff |
| 09:47.43 | ieatlint | (GtkTreeModel, GtkTreeView, etc) |
| 09:48.05 | ronny | ieatlint: people should be shoot for that |
| 09:48.16 | raster | oh god |
| 09:48.17 | raster | yeah |
| 09:48.23 | raster | gtk2's treemodel goop is a pita |
| 09:48.23 | ronny | cause its not only hard to understand, it also totaly sucks |
| 09:48.41 | ieatlint | i'm midway through some basic understanding of it |
| 09:48.44 | zedstar | i quite enjoy programming in C thanks to GLib |
| 09:48.47 | ieatlint | all i wanted was a drop down box damnit :( |
| 09:49.15 | ieatlint | yeah, glib saves quite a bit of time |
| 09:49.30 | ronny | zedstar: glib is ok, gobject isnt |
| 09:49.30 | raster | yup |
| 09:49.38 | zedstar | ronny i would agree |
| 09:49.42 | beni_ | hm, in FSO-MS3-III, my locking does not work |
| 09:49.42 | raster | anyone who doesnt sue some form of datatype/loop/event wrapper lib in c is nuts |
| 09:49.50 | raster | use |
| 09:49.53 | raster | glib is good |
| 09:50.03 | raster | its missing some things imho |
| 09:50.04 | mickey|mdd08 | beni_: "locking" ? |
| 09:50.07 | ieatlint | still, for at least low level things, i still think you need to know what's going on behind the scenes |
| 09:50.15 | beni_ | mickey|mdd08: screen locking |
| 09:50.36 | beni_ | pressing AUX does not work anymore |
| 09:50.38 | ronny | well, these days im happy i dont have to write any c |
| 09:50.41 | ieatlint | things like linked lists... if you don't know how they work, you should tae the time |
| 09:50.44 | beni_ | i already had that problem in MS-II |
| 09:50.50 | ronny | vala+python solve most of myproblems |
| 09:51.18 | mickey|mdd08 | beni_: ya, for some reason AUX is not handled by E once someone else reads from the event node |
| 09:51.35 | mickey|mdd08 | beni_: we should decouple this function and make it framework-aware |
| 09:51.39 | beni_ | ua ok |
| 09:51.40 | mickey|mdd08 | on our list of tasks |
| 09:51.46 | beni_ | very good to hear. |
| 09:51.50 | beni_ | thanks for the clarifying |
| 09:51.55 | mickey|mdd08 | np |
| 09:52.05 | mickey|mdd08 | i want to move the zhone locking out of zhone |
| 09:52.06 | mickey|mdd08 | into illume |
| 09:52.11 | beni_ | very good idea |
| 09:52.11 | mickey|mdd08 | (where it belongs to, actually) |
| 09:52.19 | raster | mickey|mdd08: you shouldnt be goign to the /dev/... devices directly |
| 09:52.36 | raster | its just nasty layer stomping |
| 09:52.36 | mickey|mdd08 | raster: i need to |
| 09:52.42 | raster | why? |
| 09:52.43 | raster | :) |
| 09:52.52 | raster | has an answer prepared |
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| 09:53.02 | mickey|mdd08 | no alternative |
| 09:53.13 | raster | points to xevie |
| 09:53.15 | mickey|mdd08 | framework should work without X |
| 09:53.23 | hipitihop | understands why raster and anyone doing C or A does not use unit tests. If it is not easy then it slows you down. AFAIK there is nothing like xUnit for C |
| 09:53.43 | raster | hipitihop: yup. that was just my point |
| 09:53.44 | raster | :) |
| 09:53.50 | raster | when u say "make a unit test suite" |
| 09:53.52 | raster | i groan |
| 09:54.03 | raster | i know how much work it wil be splittign everyting out so it can be tested |
| 09:54.07 | raster | then just the build for the tests |
| 09:54.09 | raster | and the runs |
| 09:54.10 | hipitihop | sounds like someone has to write a xunit for C |
| 09:54.14 | raster | compares to known good results etc. |
| 09:54.18 | raster | even then |
| 09:54.19 | CVirus | who needs X when you got FSO !! |
| 09:54.26 | raster | its impossible for many things - like a full window manager |
| 09:54.34 | mickey|mdd08 | well |
| 09:54.38 | raster | its behavior depends ona massive chain of things through x and with other applications |
| 09:54.41 | CVirus | FSO + python scripts for calls/SMS/phonebook |
| 09:54.43 | mickey|mdd08 | I'm still a fan of going directly to the framebuffer |
| 09:54.45 | CVirus | :-) |
| 09:54.53 | raster | mickey|mdd08: imoh fso shouldnt know about any buttons |
| 09:54.54 | raster | at ALL |
| 09:55.02 | CVirus | what buttons ?! |
| 09:55.08 | lindi- | PWR |
| 09:55.13 | raster | its is the job of the ui to indicate "Desired actions" |
| 09:55.19 | zedstar | ruby had a nice test framework which is easy to use even if u dont really know ruby...but i guess python is the same |
| 09:55.29 | raster | the ui will map a desired action from a hardware button or via a toushcreen button etc. |
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| 09:55.52 | mickey|mdd08 | raster: i need to read from input nodes to know about idleness |
| 09:55.59 | mickey|mdd08 | X's idea of idleness just doesn#t cut it |
| 09:56.06 | mickey|mdd08 | X has not enough information |
| 09:56.06 | raster | mickey|mdd08: let a x app tell u about idleness |
| 09:56.15 | raster | it is possible |
| 09:56.24 | mickey|mdd08 | everything is possible |
| 09:56.30 | raster | xscreensaver extension allows u to have x just issue an event on idelenss of N |
| 09:56.36 | hipitihop | zedstar, lets not turn this into a language advocacy war but you do know that the xUnit generation, exteme/agile programming were all invented in the smalltalk world. |
| 09:56.39 | mickey|mdd08 | we can think about making certain odeviced modules for framebuffer-only |
| 09:56.40 | raster | (N being N seconds) |
| 09:56.46 | mickey|mdd08 | and certain odeviced modules for X-awareness |
| 09:56.50 | hipitihop | s/exteme/extreme |
| 09:56.56 | raster | idleness meaning no keyboard./hardware button or touschreen poress |
| 09:57.28 | zedstar | hipitithop i didnt know......i did smalltalk at uni though |
| 09:57.38 | hipitihop | zedstar, and yes, ruby amongst others have borrowed heavily from Smalltalk |
| 09:58.20 | hipitihop | zedstar, I haven't looked but I'm assuming the unit test framework in ruby is a derivative of xUnit |
| 09:58.36 | mickey|mdd08 | raster: well, odeviced is modular for a reason :) |
| 09:58.39 | raster | mickey|mdd08: actually.. with xevie... uc an do it without xscreensaver |
| 09:58.52 | raster | just listen to all x inptu events |
| 09:58.58 | raster | have a daemon figure out what it cares about or not |
| 09:59.05 | raster | and have a timeout |
| 09:59.07 | mickey|mdd08 | again, that's not enough for busyness |
| 09:59.17 | raster | how not? |
| 09:59.20 | mickey|mdd08 | incoming calls should trigger a busyness as well |
| 09:59.25 | mickey|mdd08 | X has no idea about an incoming call |
| 09:59.29 | raster | event button (key) press and every mosue event will go thru it |
| 09:59.35 | raster | oh sure |
| 09:59.41 | mickey|mdd08 | there's more to business than input events |
| 09:59.47 | zedstar | an example where i had to use ruby test framework was i worked for an ISP migrating some apache modules which were written in C and they had like 300,000 web customers so all this C code needed testing and ruby was kewl at automating all the web calls and tests |
| 09:59.47 | raster | u need multiple sources of idelness |
| 09:59.49 | mickey|mdd08 | that's why I think X has not enough info |
| 09:59.51 | raster | x is one |
| 09:59.57 | raster | coverig kbd/mouse) |
| 10:00.02 | raster | u need other |
| 10:00.03 | methril|work | i have a hw question |
| 10:00.08 | raster | when ALL sources known to exist say they are idle |
| 10:00.12 | raster | then u are really idle |
| 10:00.14 | raster | :) |
| 10:00.17 | raster | yes |
| 10:00.19 | raster | x isnt enough |
| 10:00.21 | mickey|mdd08 | also, i'm planning to integrate mouse and accel gesture support into the framework |
| 10:00.22 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-254.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 10:00.27 | raster | but u dont need to go open /dev/input/... |
| 10:00.27 | mickey|mdd08 | since X has no events for things like that |
| 10:00.32 | raster | thats all i'm talking about |
| 10:00.32 | mickey|mdd08 | although it should rather be done there |
| 10:00.34 | raster | :) |
| 10:00.35 | hipitihop | mickey|mdd08, excellent |
| 10:00.40 | methril|work | if you ahve a GTA02 rev 5, how do you know how to check the v5 vs v6 changes? |
| 10:00.54 | mickey|mdd08 | yeah, perhaps someone comes up with a X-aware-alternative of idlenotifier implementatioin |
| 10:01.09 | raster | as such tho |
| 10:01.15 | raster | the 2 buttons on FR are mostly useless |
| 10:01.19 | raster | aux is easy to press |
| 10:01.22 | raster | power isnt so easy |
| 10:01.25 | raster | and its only 2 :( |
| 10:01.26 | *** join/#openmoko alfatangoxt (n=michele@host87-188-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 10:01.28 | hipitihop | tears himself away to finish some code before dinner |
| 10:01.34 | raster | i pretty much am happy to almost ignore them |
| 10:01.57 | lindi- | raster: for special purposes like using the phone as "push-to-talk" device they are still useful :) |
| 10:02.00 | beni_ | is there some feed for MS-3 already? |
| 10:02.35 | tg | hai |
| 10:03.01 | mickey|mdd08 | methril|work: cat /proc/cpuinfo |
| 10:03.08 | methril|work | yes, i did that |
| 10:03.14 | raster | lindi-: there are so few of them.. they invaliably will be stolen for takss |
| 10:03.21 | raster | eg power stolen for suspend./power |
| 10:03.23 | mickey|mdd08 | methril|work: good, that'll tell you |
| 10:03.24 | raster | that kleaves just aux |
| 10:03.26 | methril|work | my question was about the HW GPS probless |
| 10:03.42 | methril|work | s/probless/problems |
| 10:03.46 | mickey|mdd08 | oh, no way without opening the device and looking for the hardware reworks |
| 10:03.54 | methril|work | nice, thnks |
| 10:04.45 | methril|work | mickey|mdd08, is the FSO plans to add new hw support? |
| 10:04.46 | Tig| | methril|work: I have what is presumably the rev 5 without the rework and I have no problems with the gps, the software fix seems to have cured it here :) |
| 10:04.49 | methril|work | not Openmoko ones? |
| 10:05.09 | mickey|mdd08 | methril|work: absolutely. that's why i launched the project as FSO and not as Openmoko Framework |
| 10:05.13 | methril|work | thnk u Tig| |
| 10:05.18 | mickey|mdd08 | we already have basic support for OpenEZX |
| 10:05.22 | methril|work | nice to hear that |
| 10:05.33 | mickey|mdd08 | looking for HTC support as well |
| 10:05.38 | mickey|mdd08 | probably later this year |
| 10:05.44 | mickey|mdd08 | depending on how the kernel guys make progress |
| 10:05.46 | CVirus | super cool |
| 10:05.46 | methril|work | i'm helping idasystem guys, and i'd like to get it on em-x270 |
| 10:06.01 | CVirus | mickey|mdd08: try to push Steve to hire more kernel devs |
| 10:06.02 | raster | mickey|mdd08: aye. need other systems supported |
| 10:06.02 | methril|work | HTC!! this was an option |
| 10:06.07 | raster | as FR is a limited subset of hw |
| 10:06.10 | raster | ie no keypad |
| 10:06.15 | methril|work | ye |
| 10:06.16 | methril|work | s |
| 10:06.18 | raster | vga not qvga |
| 10:06.19 | mickey|mdd08 | CVirus: no, i'm referring to the HTC/OpenEZX kernel guys |
| 10:06.24 | mickey|mdd08 | steve won't hire those :) |
| 10:06.31 | raster | i need to make sure stuff works in a range of resolutions |
| 10:06.33 | CVirus | haha |
| 10:06.37 | methril|work | i'm really interesting in HTC too |
| 10:06.41 | mickey|mdd08 | but kernel support is unfortunately the foundation for FSO |
| 10:06.44 | methril|work | it's hard to port a kernel? |
| 10:06.45 | mickey|mdd08 | raster: yes! |
| 10:06.51 | mickey|mdd08 | methril|work: incredibly, yes. |
| 10:06.56 | mickey|mdd08 | especially without vendor support |
| 10:07.08 | raster | even if u get kernel up |
| 10:07.10 | mickey|mdd08 | openezx e.g. struggling since 2004 |
| 10:07.13 | raster | u still have a mountain of devices to support |
| 10:07.18 | methril|work | this what i'd like to do, but at the beginning you walk blind |
| 10:07.25 | raster | and then theres x (or gui level stuff) |
| 10:07.27 | methril|work | (i don't know if this is the expression) |
| 10:07.34 | raster | if its a "accelerated chip" |
| 10:07.40 | raster | and gsm... and wifi.. and.... |
| 10:07.51 | methril|work | uhm!! |
| 10:07.52 | mickey|mdd08 | ya, custom chips suck |
| 10:07.57 | *** join/#openmoko icman__ (n=icman@123-240-172-254.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 10:08.02 | raster | even if u get a kenrel booting and userspace |
| 10:08.02 | methril|work | and they are still don't working? |
| 10:08.06 | raster | even a dumb fb /dev/fb |
| 10:08.11 | raster | u have a moutnain of work left |
| 10:08.23 | raster | and even if u get it working |
| 10:08.24 | methril|work | yes, then you have a working system, without services |
| 10:08.43 | raster | u will find hw bugs that official drivers "work around"but no one is goign to let you know about them and how to work around |
| 10:08.43 | CVirus | LOL @ raster |
| 10:08.46 | methril|work | but you get the first step, that it's hard too |
| 10:08.55 | mickey|mdd08 | methril|work: no, they still have problems with some ASICs |
| 10:09.05 | ronny | hmm |
| 10:09.07 | mickey|mdd08 | completely undocumented high intergrated custom chips |
| 10:09.12 | raster | and by the time u have finally battled so hard to get everything workign right |
| 10:09.18 | raster | the device is obsolete and not produced anymore |
| 10:09.22 | raster | and hard to find |
| 10:09.23 | raster | :( |
| 10:09.32 | methril|work | the ASICS could be nice if you have a "documented" API for the speciall stuff |
| 10:09.39 | ronny | btw, are there any plans to work with another os than linux? |
| 10:09.41 | raster | i wish more hardware makers would want to play the open game |
| 10:09.57 | raster | ronny: "why?" |
| 10:10.04 | raster | do you meam bsd |
| 10:10.07 | raster | or l4 |
| 10:10.09 | ronny | (i really think linux is not fit for phones) |
| 10:10.11 | methril|work | methril nods |
| 10:10.11 | raster | or wince? |
| 10:10.17 | mickey|mdd08 | ronny: no immediate plans here, but patches appreciated |
| 10:10.30 | methril|work | puaj!! |
| 10:10.49 | ronny | raster: surely not wince |
| 10:11.05 | raster | imho linux is just fine |
| 10:11.05 | ronny | raster: but something with rather small footprints would be nice |
| 10:11.10 | mickey|mdd08 | well, embedded systems expose a lot of layering violations which are tough to do w/ linux |
| 10:11.23 | raster | where it is used and supported it works well |
| 10:11.24 | mickey|mdd08 | if you don't care about layers, you're better off |
| 10:11.34 | raster | and linxu can have a very small footprint |
| 10:11.37 | ronny | raster: linux is just large and not really made for embedded systems |
| 10:11.40 | *** join/#openmoko DieMumiee (n=DieMumie@W0f27.w.pppool.de) |
| 10:11.44 | raster | my basic os for my ipaq was 2.5mb |
| 10:11.53 | raster | kernel, userspace up to a shell prompt |
| 10:12.01 | zedstar | linux has been cranked out in a lot of phones in china and with motorola in the US so must be doing something right |
| 10:12.02 | raster | and busybox commands and enough to get more stuff on |
| 10:12.08 | mickey|mdd08 | needs to pay some attention to the talks |
| 10:12.09 | mickey|mdd08 | l8er |
| 10:12.23 | CVirus | what talks ? |
| 10:12.25 | ronny | zedstar: it works ok, and its allread implemented |
| 10:12.29 | raster | for 4mb of flash i added an xserver, the x libs and a basic x test app |
| 10:12.54 | methril|work | raster, the reverse engineering of some devices, implies HW signalc checkings? |
| 10:12.55 | CVirus | ah the conference whatsoever |
| 10:13.00 | ronny | zedstar: doent help the boot times, and the fac that the whole infrastrucutre is a large mess |
| 10:13.11 | Infoport | grrr, SHR compile still gets to 5144 of 5148 and then exits with an error. Anybody have success with SHR? |
| 10:13.13 | raster | methril|work: it may mean it - yes. |
| 10:13.44 | methril|work | the OpenEZX did it for kernel dev? |
| 10:13.51 | ronny | for other phones completely functional images are like 4 mb, openmoko is 50 mb, and can barely be used for phone/sms |
| 10:14.19 | ronny | so there must be something wrong |
| 10:14.23 | *** join/#openmoko harnir (n=harnir@dhcp046-205.ds.amg.gda.pl) |
| 10:14.25 | harnir | hello |
| 10:14.47 | CVirus | What 4m images support GSM, Wifi, GPS, Accleromteres, ... etc |
| 10:14.57 | raster | ronny: frankly - that is just a matter of OE and how/what it builds |
| 10:15.11 | raster | ronny: as i said. i've gotten a whill xserver, xlibs and kernel and bas os into 4mb |
| 10:15.22 | raster | ronny: yes - its not as small as "fully functional" phone |
| 10:15.36 | raster | but... u could have a fulyl fucntonal linux in < 32m |
| 10:15.42 | *** part/#openmoko ChandleWEi (n=chandle@210.13.121.62) |
| 10:15.53 | ronny | who cares about linux, i want a phone |
| 10:16.06 | raster | just what oe builds is a little extra bloated |
| 10:16.14 | raster | ronny: then go buy a nokia |
| 10:16.16 | *** join/#openmoko Open_Gl (n=kvirc@augustas.is.lt) |
| 10:16.17 | raster | nop need to be here |
| 10:16.22 | raster | or buy a motorola |
| 10:16.27 | zedstar | i guess the issue is how well linux works as a smart phone compared to linux embedded into low phones with just a java interface |
| 10:16.28 | raster | or a samsung lg etc. |
| 10:16.33 | raster | if thats all u want |
| 10:16.34 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-254.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 10:16.39 | ronny | open hardware was a requirement for me |
| 10:16.39 | CVirus | iPhone :-p |
| 10:16.58 | raster | ronny: "why" ? |
| 10:17.10 | ronny | raster: cause i hack with it |
| 10:17.18 | Infoport | shhh raster, you arent supposed to say that out loud ;) |
| 10:17.25 | raster | does open hardware matter unless u untend to modify tjhe hardware and/or write specialised software fopr it |
| 10:17.34 | raster | and then open hw - is that rlelevant if your sdk isnt fully open? |
| 10:17.49 | zedstar | supposedly android is out next month on t-mobile if u believe the hype |
| 10:17.56 | raster | linux and open hardware go hand-in-hand |
| 10:18.02 | CVirus | boycott android |
| 10:18.19 | raster | i suspect google is playing the open source tune on their trumpet |
| 10:18.26 | ronny | well, if i want to write custom toy os's in otder to play with things, i need such stuff |
| 10:18.27 | raster | but in the end their "handset partners"à ¤Ÿà ¥‹à ¤¨à ¤¤ à ¤¬à ¥‡ |
| 10:18.29 | Infoport | CVirus what's wrong with Android? |
| 10:18.31 | raster | err |
| 10:18.34 | raster | partners won't be |
| 10:18.37 | zedstar | im just curious to have a play on one |
| 10:18.42 | raster | and u'll have a half-open system |
| 10:18.45 | raster | with closed hw |
| 10:18.51 | raster | signed bootloaders |
| 10:18.58 | raster | closed userspace drivers and processes etc. |
| 10:19.00 | CVirus | Infoport: not GPL'ed, java, closed hw, they could have collaborated with FIC |
| 10:19.00 | zedstar | i got bored with an iphone pretty quick i bet be same for android |
| 10:20.40 | zedstar | i not really a huge fan of google's all your base are belong to us attitude |
| 10:21.12 | raster | CVirus: not sure gpl is the real issue here, but more that they specifically avoided gpl everywhere they could and re-implemented much of userspace just to be rid of it that smells of a rat |
| 10:22.02 | *** join/#openmoko vaiursch (n=erwin@84-75-29-2.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 10:22.05 | Open_Gl | recommend mail client openmoko 2008.8 |
| 10:22.06 | Open_Gl | ? |
| 10:22.23 | harnir | Open_Gl: unfortunately not mutt |
| 10:23.30 | Infoport | maybe they are looking to partner with SUSE and dont want to be dragged down by legal-stuff :P |
| 10:23.41 | *** join/#openmoko froksen (n=froksen@87.54.254.190) |
| 10:25.18 | Infoport | gaaah I should be playing with my phone instead of troll-baiting (and no takers) |
| 10:26.18 | zedstar | i should be reading a book about UML but that stuff is seriously dull and IRC is more interesting |
| 10:26.29 | Infoport | wonder if we'll see a port of KenYoung's Orrery to the Qtopia platform? |
| 10:27.33 | Infoport | zedstar yet another person today asked me why I was putting such effort into running a phone and *not* getting paid for it...didn't have a job for me though |
| 10:28.27 | zedstar | infoport yeh the unwashed masses are non believers |
| 10:29.31 | raster | Infoport: "because its fun?" |
| 10:29.32 | raster | :) |
| 10:29.38 | *** join/#openmoko alfatangoxt (n=michele@host32-164-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 10:31.19 | *** join/#openmoko slchen (n=slchen@220-133-21-203.HINET-IP.hinet.net) |
| 10:31.27 | Infoport | I think I need a build machine so my main desktop isnt strangled for 2-3 days to compile a system (esp when it fails at the end) |
| 10:32.47 | *** join/#openmoko cichlid02 (n=seb@33.15.195-77.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 10:33.56 | Infoport | got to get these USB adapters paying off too-- anybody running any interesting extra devices off USB? keyboards, mice, special stuff? |
| 10:35.02 | *** join/#openmoko vallor-hq (n=Frenetic@targ4.ponzo.net) |
| 10:35.12 | raster | webcam, 2 freerunners, my motrola, wireless kbd/mouse, n800, card reader...my usb sockets are pretty crammed |
| 10:35.30 | raster | psp also charges off usb too |
| 10:35.56 | raster | i'm really low on spare usb sockets |
| 10:36.45 | Infoport | raster do you have any of those USB items working plugged into your FR? |
| 10:37.02 | raster | ooh |
| 10:37.03 | raster | on my fr |
| 10:37.05 | raster | no |
| 10:37.35 | cichlid02 | in host mode it should |
| 10:37.45 | cichlid02 | (my 100mA mouse works well) |
| 10:39.01 | Infoport | cichlid02 what did you have to do to use that? just plug it up, or did you have to enable host mode by command? |
| 10:39.34 | cichlid02 | yeah i have to enable host mode by command |
| 10:40.51 | Infoport | a few extra devices, and WINE on FR and I'll be ready to tweak my VW with my handheld |
| 10:41.12 | *** join/#openmoko xcasex (n=rrg@ua-83-227-156-234.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) |
| 10:41.13 | cichlid02 | but my rubber keyboard doesn't work at all |
| 10:41.31 | Infoport | cichlid02 you have the Duraflex? |
| 10:41.32 | cichlid02 | and i can't figure out why |
| 10:41.41 | cichlid02 | no another rubber |
| 10:42.03 | *** join/#openmoko slchen_ (n=slchen@220-133-21-203.HINET-IP.hinet.net) |
| 10:42.06 | *** join/#openmoko johncylee1 (n=john@firewall.tw.openmoko.org) |
| 10:42.26 | Infoport | cichlid02 yeah I wanted to hook up my natural keyboard to it, was trying to get the Duraflex with correct tip for a small kb |
| 10:43.47 | zedstar | OT: whats the cheapest hardware i could get to simply have something broadcast its bluetooth name? |
| 10:44.43 | cichlid02 | Infoport, i use this one http://www.boutonvert.eu/bouton_vert/pictures/USB_FLEXIBLE_KEYBOARD/USB_FLEXIBLE_KEYBOARD_g.jpg |
| 10:45.05 | Infoport | zedstar I had bought several BT earpices cheaply by looking for sales/rebates. I looked on salescircular.com for sales at BestBuy,Office Max, Circuit City, etc |
| 10:45.09 | cichlid02 | and i never successfully typed anything .... |
| 10:45.44 | *** join/#openmoko unlotto (n=unlotto@ip114.rev112.brygge.net) |
| 10:45.52 | Infoport | cichlid02 does the keyboard work fine on your other computer(s)? |
| 10:45.56 | zedstar | infoport but i need something where i can manually set the bluetooth name.....ie when u do a scan it says "foobar" |
| 10:46.03 | cichlid02 | Infoport, yes for sure |
| 10:46.36 | Infoport | zedstar oh then those are prob too simple |
| 10:47.06 | cichlid02 | and logs tell me the FR load the right input device driver at plug |
| 10:47.49 | cichlid02 | but it stays useless |
| 10:47.56 | Infoport | zedstar perhaps look for a usb-dongle for BT that works in Linux, or does it need to be self-contained? |
| 10:48.28 | Infoport | cichlid02 does it act differently if the kb is there vs not-plugged in? |
| 10:48.48 | zedstar | infoport yeh...ideally as small as possible with option to power it........im gonna use beagleboard as they are fairly cheap but it is way over spec'ed for something that simple |
| 10:49.27 | Infoport | zedstar sorry, left a bit out. if a dongle is well supported, then some Linux app would let you broadcast your own bt-name |
| 10:49.43 | cichlid02 | Infoport, no it is silenty discarded (but the logs report i pluged it) |
| 10:50.22 | zedstar | infoport yeh sure im gonna use a dongle but was wondering the cheapest/smallest thing i could attach one too |
| 10:50.45 | Infoport | zedstar building a carputer? |
| 10:51.08 | zedstar | infoport no i wanna place them round a building and give out coordinates for a fake kind of gps |
| 10:51.32 | Dave | Infoports! |
| 10:51.33 | prjktdtnt | so I've decided for now to stick with 2008.8 update since SMS seems to be broken in FSO-M3 (using zhone) and qtopia has low volume issues. |
| 10:51.49 | Infoport | hey Dave! |
| 10:52.13 | Dave | raster, you require additional hubs! |
| 10:53.35 | Infoport | cichlid02 I seem to remember someone complaining that a BT kb wouldnt work for them unless the virtual kb was on the screen |
| 10:54.01 | cichlid02 | ok thank you for the clue |
| 10:54.07 | raster | Dave: monitor comes with a hub... :) ands card reader :) so thats settles a 2 port hub + card reader usb device |
| 10:54.21 | Dave | MORE |
| 10:54.25 | Dave | :P |
| 10:54.32 | Dave | Raster, how many usb devices DO you have? |
| 10:54.35 | Dave | :) |
| 10:54.40 | raster | got 2 ports @ front, 6 @ back |
| 10:54.52 | Dave | But is that enough!? |
| 10:54.52 | raster | hmm |
| 10:54.54 | raster | lots of them |
| 10:55.01 | raster | a small army |
| 10:55.05 | *** join/#openmoko Gnutoo (n=gnutoo@50.118-226-89.dsl.completel.net) |
| 10:55.09 | Dave | muwahaha |
| 10:55.15 | cichlid02 | a common usb 2;0 hub can have one hundred devices attached |
| 10:55.18 | raster | there was a day long ago me and my nmates went "whats all this usb shit for? all these usless ports!" |
| 10:55.19 | Dave | Please don't attack us anytime soon :) |
| 10:55.30 | zedstar | lol |
| 10:55.36 | raster | and on we went plugging in ps/2 & at keyboards and mice in |
| 10:55.54 | raster | then a day came and i went |
| 10:56.08 | raster | "crap.. finally 10 years later.. this usb stuff is useful!" |
| 10:56.09 | Infoport | I didnt use too much USB, but now my kb doesnt like to be adapted to PS/2, my ups has a plug, my remote has a plug, FR and camera... |
| 10:56.15 | raster | and now i'm running low on ports |
| 10:56.28 | Dave | heh |
| 10:56.37 | raster | i have grown to love my usb |
| 10:56.37 | Dave | my freerunners have their own sixteen port usb hub |
| 10:56.45 | raster | especially all the devices ihave that charge off usb |
| 10:56.53 | *** join/#openmoko alfatangoxt (n=michele@host32-164-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 10:56.55 | raster | god praise the whole idea of charging over usb |
| 10:56.57 | Dave | yeah, I'm glad I don't have those |
| 10:57.02 | Dave | fuck that, it's blasphemous :p |
| 10:57.07 | raster | imho devices that dont charge over usb should be delcared illegal contraband |
| 10:57.12 | Dave | haha |
| 10:57.16 | Infoport | Dave so what devices exactly is your FREERUNNER using? |
| 10:57.18 | Dave | fuck you raster |
| 10:57.35 | Dave | Raster, I only use them IF they adhear to the standard (which there isn't yet), to my knowledge. |
| 10:57.50 | Dave | So many of them suck, needing their own chargers. |
| 10:57.51 | raster | only devices that provide usb ports that u can plug things into to charge should be allowed to come with a powerpack |
| 10:57.52 | raster | :) |
| 10:58.02 | Dave | heh |
| 10:58.11 | raster | Dave: just plug into your pc! |
| 10:58.12 | Dave | Freerunner totally needs a wallwart though :\ |
| 10:58.16 | raster | they sit and charge happily |
| 10:58.16 | Dave | hah |
| 10:58.22 | Dave | and fry my PC? no thanks |
| 10:58.26 | raster | of course the stand-alone usb wall charger game is a mess |
| 10:58.28 | raster | i agree |
| 10:58.36 | Dave | yeah :| |
| 10:58.37 | raster | Dave: fry? never happened to me |
| 10:58.57 | Dave | dude, I have THREE phones, all of which use "USB" to charge... NONE of their power adapters works with the other |
| 10:59.00 | raster | right now 2 fr's, psp and motorola phone are charging off usb off my pc |
| 10:59.05 | Dave | not even the usb-usbmini cable |
| 10:59.10 | Dave | it's fucking stupid |
| 10:59.12 | ieatlint | clearly future revisions of the usb standard need add support specifically for device charging |
| 10:59.14 | raster | oh forget the usb wall-chargers they come wiht |
| 10:59.16 | raster | i threw mine out |
| 10:59.20 | Dave | haha |
| 10:59.21 | Dave | woo |
| 10:59.23 | Dave | go raster :P |
| 10:59.26 | raster | i hate all tyhese feckin dc power adaptor bricks |
| 10:59.33 | Dave | ieatlint, CLEARLY |
| 10:59.38 | raster | they make we want to shoot people |
| 10:59.40 | Dave | and the fact people will do what they want with them |
| 10:59.47 | ieatlint | Dave, you haven't had enough to drink, go get more |
| 10:59.55 | *** join/#openmoko DieMumie1 (n=DieMumie@W0f27.w.pppool.de) |
| 10:59.56 | Dave | like, OOH, lookie, this plug looks like it fits in this socket,... LET'S PLUG THEM IN! |
| 11:00.03 | raster | i only charge by plugging into my pc or laptop |
| 11:00.05 | ieatlint | and whomever wrote gtktreemodel needs a swift kick in balls |
| 11:00.06 | Dave | ieatlint, affirmative ;p |
| 11:00.07 | raster | whihc works just fine |
| 11:00.15 | raster | sure - its slower |
| 11:00.18 | raster | as its only 500ma |
| 11:00.19 | Dave | ieatlint, yeah, that too |
| 11:00.25 | Dave | raster, but at least it works :) |
| 11:00.26 | ieatlint | it should not take 8 lines of code to create a fucking drop down menu selections |
| 11:00.29 | raster | but hey... i got rid of my nest of dc powerpacks! |
| 11:00.29 | Infoport | Dave really? I use a generic "camera cable" for my FR and camera, leave it plugged in (got a dozen for about $.99 each) |
| 11:00.46 | Dave | yeah, heh |
| 11:00.46 | raster | i'm on a mission to utterly extinguish them |
| 11:00.47 | Dave | good job |
| 11:01.04 | Dave | I do, however, enjoy charging freerunner batteries in thirty minutes or so :P |
| 11:01.06 | raster | only things that should be plugged in are ones with built-in powersupplie |
| 11:01.13 | raster | (monitors, pc desktop) |
| 11:01.15 | raster | OR laptops |
| 11:01.21 | Dave | OR brains |
| 11:01.23 | raster | everything else shoudl damn well power/charge off usb |
| 11:01.30 | Dave | BRAAAAAAAAAAAANEEEEES |
| 11:01.50 | ieatlint | raster, i'm not sure that all my devices aren't like that now |
| 11:01.57 | Dave | In other news, Rasterman takes over the internet with his superb virtual keyboard. |
| 11:02.08 | Infoport | damn forgot to plug my brain in...hell usb A/M to usb mini-B? |
| 11:02.12 | Dave | :P |
| 11:02.16 | ieatlint | but yeah, then you don't even need to fuck with different plugs/voltage/freq when travelling to charge your shit |
| 11:02.35 | raster | ieatlint: u got rid of all thsoe dc powerpacks? |
| 11:02.57 | raster | (and yes - no more fucking with voltage and crud ) |
| 11:03.04 | raster | as i dont travel anywhere without laptop |
| 11:03.11 | ieatlint | i've got 3 montors, 4 computers and a switch plugged in... |
| 11:03.17 | raster | then all i need is a multie-adatpor for world power sockets for laptop |
| 11:03.21 | ieatlint | nothing else, except a couple lights... oh, and a ps3 |
| 11:03.32 | raster | andd everything else ihave can piggyback off the laptops' power supply |
| 11:03.37 | ieatlint | hell, i use a network bridge that's powered over usb |
| 11:03.46 | raster | ieatlint: aaah. no gadgets there |
| 11:03.53 | raster | ok network bridge |
| 11:03.54 | ieatlint | all my gadgets are usb |
| 11:03.58 | raster | what about phone? |
| 11:04.01 | raster | pda? |
| 11:04.11 | *** join/#openmoko HauDyr (n=kim@wnn73219.wireless.dtu.dk) |
| 11:04.11 | raster | any external usb dvd/cd's? |
| 11:04.14 | raster | or usb hdd's |
| 11:04.17 | ieatlint | i've got like 5 phones or something on my desk, all charge via usb |
| 11:04.30 | raster | (those damn 3.5" usb hdd's should damn well power over usb too!) |
| 11:04.37 | raster | ieatlint: excellent! |
| 11:04.43 | raster | you are living the dream |
| 11:04.45 | ieatlint | i've en extrernal optical drive for my little laptop |
| 11:04.48 | raster | shoots nokia |
| 11:04.56 | ieatlint | and it does need a dc adapter |
| 11:05.02 | ieatlint | raster, 2 of the phones are nokia |
| 11:05.02 | raster | why the crap did u have to make the n800 only charege via your silly powerpack |
| 11:05.07 | ieatlint | i have a usb charger for them |
| 11:05.27 | Infoport | Cable modem, switch, UPS, desktop, screen, laptop, Vonage, we already need more power on the UPS for a hub (need more ethernet ports) |
| 11:05.31 | ieatlint | then i've got a crapload of other things, like a bt gps which charges over usb |
| 11:05.38 | raster | ieatlint: aha! you have been infected by 1 dc adaptor |
| 11:06.14 | ieatlint | 2 if you count the adapter i have for my external ide/sata adapter |
| 11:06.26 | ieatlint | although for laptop ide, it powers off usb |
| 11:06.28 | raster | i wish they would make desktop psu's with that pdaisy-chain power out again |
| 11:06.37 | raster | so u can plug the monitor(s) into it too |
| 11:06.52 | raster | ieatlint: yeah. 2.5" manage to work off usb |
| 11:06.55 | ieatlint | hah, my main monitor uses more power than my computers |
| 11:06.59 | raster | but 3.5" :( |
| 11:07.06 | raster | ieatlint: really? |
| 11:07.13 | *** join/#openmoko soltys_ (i=soltys@szluug.org) |
| 11:07.13 | ieatlint | 30" :) |
| 11:07.48 | prjktdtnt | so I saw that the 1000ma charging from USB can damage the hardware, which hardware and how? |
| 11:08.08 | raster | ieatlint: hmmm i wonder how much pwoer my pc uses... |
| 11:08.16 | ieatlint | kill-a-watt |
| 11:08.33 | *** join/#openmoko Tronic_ (i=tronic@zi.fi) |
| 11:08.37 | raster | ieatlint: how much does it suck? |
| 11:08.38 | ieatlint | i have all my shit plugged into one... i use obscene amounts of power |
| 11:09.01 | raster | mines a 21" + 21" |
| 11:09.13 | raster | so i probably suck up 150-200w there |
| 11:09.31 | ieatlint | in total i'm using 730w right now |
| 11:09.35 | ieatlint | for just my computer stuff |
| 11:09.46 | *** join/#openmoko massoud_ (n=massoud@85.233.200.18) |
| 11:09.49 | Infoport | raster do you enter the commands for host mode in a terminal each time, or did you set up a script to toggle it? |
| 11:09.50 | raster | ouch |
| 11:09.56 | ieatlint | dell says my monitor is 163w typical, 250w max |
| 11:10.06 | ieatlint | i don't pay for electricity, so no worries |
| 11:11.00 | raster | Infoport: i dont plug usb stuff into my FR |
| 11:11.02 | ieatlint | my 24" monitor uses 57w typical, 110max |
| 11:11.06 | ieatlint | that's an impressive difference |
| 11:11.12 | raster | ieatlint: aah 57->110w for me |
| 11:11.22 | raster | (27") |
| 11:12.00 | raster | hmm |
| 11:12.04 | raster | similar for my 21" |
| 11:12.06 | ieatlint | i've been meaning to get rid of 2 computers that i don't really use |
| 11:12.13 | ieatlint | but i'm pretty lazy |
| 11:12.25 | raster | i dod that a long time ago in a hardware leaning binge |
| 11:12.30 | raster | i'm down to 1 desktop |
| 11:12.33 | Infoport | oops, cichlid02, do you enter the commands for host mode in a terminal each time, or did you set up a script to toggle it? |
| 11:12.43 | raster | 1 media pc/server (With raid array) under the livign room tv |
| 11:12.48 | raster | and then a small jungle of laptops |
| 11:12.59 | raster | which all nicely stash away into rawers and use no space |
| 11:13.00 | raster | :) |
| 11:13.06 | raster | only really use 1 laptop primarily |
| 11:13.11 | raster | its nicer to lean down on hw |
| 11:13.38 | ieatlint | lol... you like to show it who's boss |
| 11:13.52 | raster | hahaha |
| 11:13.58 | raster | well i meant "reduce amount of hw" |
| 11:14.03 | raster | lean and mean |
| 11:14.07 | raster | hardware-diet |
| 11:14.09 | ieatlint | i need a new laptop |
| 11:14.19 | *** join/#openmoko cichlid02 (n=seb@33.15.195-77.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 11:14.21 | raster | unfortunately i've sprouted lots of little arm devices instead |
| 11:14.28 | TAsn1 | hey, if i have hw gps fix, does that mean i have gta02v6? |
| 11:14.35 | TAsn1 | or could this also be 5? |
| 11:14.38 | ieatlint | i have a nearly dead dell one and an asus eeepc which is love, but i can't do any work on |
| 11:14.43 | Dave | :p |
| 11:14.59 | Dave | raster :P |
| 11:15.04 | raster | :-P |
| 11:15.07 | ieatlint | i've two many arm devices :P |
| 11:15.19 | Dave | ieatlint, myself as well |
| 11:15.34 | Dave | in the market for a new "laptop" |
| 11:15.40 | *** join/#openmoko zogg_ (n=zogg@78-62-16-160.static.zebra.lt) |
| 11:15.45 | *** join/#openmoko Mek__ (n=marijn@93.157.1.37) |
| 11:15.47 | ieatlint | i'm probably going to get a thinkpad.. |
| 11:15.52 | Dave | raster do they combine to form voltron, or something more useful? |
| 11:15.57 | Dave | ieatlint, lenovo? |
| 11:16.00 | ieatlint | yeah |
| 11:16.40 | Dave | do you like nipples? |
| 11:16.40 | ieatlint | i'm tired of dells that look like toys, i never liked toshiba.. |
| 11:16.40 | ieatlint | who doesn't? |
| 11:16.40 | Dave | :p |
| 11:16.40 | Dave | I don't, on my computer, anyway |
| 11:16.40 | *** join/#openmoko apol (i=apol@62.57.51.189.dyn.user.ono.com) |
| 11:16.45 | ieatlint | i don't recall thinkpads having nipples |
| 11:16.50 | *** join/#openmoko Gnutoo (n=gnutoo@50.118-226-89.dsl.completel.net) |
| 11:16.50 | Dave | ... |
| 11:16.58 | Dave | they ALL do |
| 11:17.04 | Dave | it's practically their fucking trademark |
| 11:17.09 | ieatlint | oh, you mean in the keyboard |
| 11:17.14 | Dave | fucking stupid mouse pointer |
| 11:17.18 | ieatlint | pointing stick or whatever |
| 11:17.22 | ieatlint | yeah, i like those |
| 11:17.40 | edistar | raster: strange world, with those time differences.. heh.. good morning! |
| 11:17.44 | Dave | what's (worse?), is that they offer both now |
| 11:17.50 | ieatlint | i used to have one, before dell went from laptop to colourful plastic |
| 11:18.01 | Dave | ieatlint haha |
| 11:18.07 | Dave | sadly true |
| 11:18.20 | zedstar | tweaks his nipple |
| 11:18.26 | Dave | -_- |
| 11:18.29 | zedstar | my thinkpad has a nipple |
| 11:18.37 | ieatlint | just set your computer to moan whenever you move the mouse with it |
| 11:19.04 | Dave | Well, you certainly seem to have thought of everything, lint. |
| 11:19.13 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans_ (n=peter@dD577D009.access.telenet.be) |
| 11:19.17 | ieatlint | yeah, well, i do that |
| 11:19.25 | Dave | EXCEPT WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR LIBRARIES |
| 11:19.29 | Dave | oops :x |
| 11:19.35 | ieatlint | hey now |
| 11:19.38 | Dave | ;p |
| 11:19.39 | ieatlint | minus the plural |
| 11:19.44 | Dave | haha |
| 11:19.45 | ieatlint | LIBRARY |
| 11:19.49 | Dave | only written one, have we? |
| 11:19.52 | *** join/#openmoko Tronic (i=tronic@zi.fi) |
| 11:19.59 | Dave | nah, it's rather glorious |
| 11:20.00 | ieatlint | yeah, doesn't it show? :P |
| 11:20.03 | *** join/#openmoko ale_ (n=ale@213.158.72.22) |
| 11:20.03 | Dave | well, getting there anyway :) |
| 11:20.04 | Dave | hahaha |
| 11:20.07 | Dave | :D |
| 11:20.20 | Dave | hey, you're learning... |
| 11:20.23 | ieatlint | i'm moving through with more |
| 11:20.30 | Dave | and at the same time, learning how shitty some other things are as well |
| 11:21.10 | Dave | oh man, the lights last night were great |
| 11:21.23 | *** join/#openmoko Tronic_ (i=tronic@zi.fi) |
| 11:21.24 | *** join/#openmoko akus (n=akus@87.13.248.168) |
| 11:21.31 | Dave | .6MW or something |
| 11:21.37 | akus | Hello chan! :-) |
| 11:21.37 | *** join/#openmoko reinouts (n=reinout@s559355fe.adsl.wanadoo.nl) |
| 11:21.42 | Dave | totally a practical use of energy :P |
| 11:21.49 | ieatlint | Dave, i found something else funny about nextbus with muni (maybe other agencies) |
| 11:21.57 | Dave | haha, oh snap |
| 11:21.59 | ieatlint | there's a "secret" bus "line" |
| 11:22.01 | Dave | what now? :) |
| 11:22.07 | Dave | the ghost bus!? |
| 11:22.10 | ieatlint | "training_coach" ... |
| 11:22.14 | Dave | :D |
| 11:22.20 | Dave | is that the one they take rookies in? |
| 11:22.23 | ieatlint | ever want to watch trainees driving buses around in circles? |
| 11:22.27 | ieatlint | lol, yeah |
| 11:22.29 | Dave | that appears "Out of Service" |
| 11:22.34 | Dave | on the ticker |
| 11:22.35 | ieatlint | nope |
| 11:22.46 | ieatlint | it should say "Training Coach" ... or has when i've seen them |
| 11:22.53 | Dave | well here, they just take 'em Out Of Service when doing that |
| 11:22.54 | Dave | :P |
| 11:23.02 | Dave | and just drive around |
| 11:23.12 | Dave | but I should check that out :P |
| 11:23.40 | ieatlint | i started decompiling part of the java applet they have and found that and a handful of other tidbits |
| 11:23.42 | prjktdtnt | what is the easiest way to find out if your USB port is able to handle 1000ma charging |
| 11:23.43 | Dave | what's worse, is when they take them out for a joy ride, they sometimes pick passengers up as well |
| 11:23.48 | *** join/#openmoko Cap_J_L_Picard (n=ewanm89@unaffiliated/ewanm89) |
| 11:23.50 | Dave | ooh goodie |
| 11:23.54 | Dave | but also scary :P |
| 11:24.10 | Dave | Tell me more of your interesting find |
| 11:24.13 | ieatlint | "ball_park_service" is another hidden line here |
| 11:24.19 | raster | edistar: hahahah |
| 11:24.21 | Dave | prjktdtnt: try it and see |
| 11:24.24 | ieatlint | for football games, they run special buses out to candlestick |
| 11:24.26 | Dave | sweet |
| 11:24.38 | Dave | I would not have known! |
| 11:24.39 | prjktdtnt | Dave: I prefer not to risk frying my laptop's USB port(s) |
| 11:24.42 | ieatlint | prjktdtnt, dave is right, try it |
| 11:24.49 | Dave | it won't |
| 11:24.56 | ieatlint | prjktdtnt, usb has a built in power overload protection |
| 11:24.58 | Dave | it'll either fail or it will work |
| 11:24.59 | *** join/#openmoko xMDKx (n=mdkcore@nat/mandriva/x-7b2378384e0c351f) |
| 11:25.01 | ieatlint | it'll turn off the port without damage |
| 11:25.11 | Dave | ieatlint, not necessarily, but the freerunner does! |
| 11:25.14 | Dave | :) |
| 11:25.21 | Dave | which is why it takes so fucking long to charge! |
| 11:25.31 | ieatlint | mine charge quickly |
| 11:25.31 | Dave | like, oh hai, I'm a device, gimme all ur powars |
| 11:25.33 | prjktdtnt | will the FR automatically go back to 500ma charging by unplugging and reconnecting USB? |
| 11:25.40 | Dave | YOU BIG FREERUNNER MAN |
| 11:25.50 | ieatlint | i still am not sure where mine are :( |
| 11:25.58 | Dave | heh |
| 11:26.01 | edistar | prjktdtnt: shouldn't it renegotiate? |
| 11:26.06 | Dave | it does |
| 11:26.27 | prjktdtnt | edistar: I would think so but wanted to be sure |
| 11:26.27 | *** join/#openmoko Tronic (i=tronic@zi.fi) |
| 11:26.29 | prjktdtnt | dave: thanks |
| 11:26.33 | Dave | as far as I know if you try 1000mA and it doesn't work, it may "bail" and go to 100mA if it can't renegotiate 500 |
| 11:26.43 | Dave | but if you reconnect it, it should do 500mA (as usual) just fine |
| 11:26.49 | prjktdtnt | awesome :) |
| 11:27.01 | Dave | now trying 2mA on a typical usb bus is not well advised ;p |
| 11:27.01 | ieatlint | actually it should simple kill the port |
| 11:27.08 | ieatlint | and your computer will register it |
| 11:27.17 | Dave | register the kill? |
| 11:27.19 | ieatlint | the kernel log should say like "power overload on port ...." |
| 11:27.29 | Dave | oh yeah, I've gotten pages of them |
| 11:27.34 | Dave | and yet, it still charged fine :p |
| 11:27.38 | prjktdtnt | so something like dmesg | tail? |
| 11:27.42 | Dave | yes |
| 11:27.52 | ieatlint | huh, it isn't supposed to provide power again until you physically reconnect the device i thought |
| 11:28.01 | Dave | heh |
| 11:28.03 | prjktdtnt | rawk, once the opkg upgrade finishes i'll give it a try |
| 11:28.08 | Dave | tell that to my device |
| 11:28.24 | prjktdtnt | I hope it works, 2% of the battery is saying 15 minutes to recharge still |
| 11:28.31 | ieatlint | tell it to your own device |
| 11:28.32 | Infoport | crap, I wanted to try USB host mode with my FR, but there is no > key in the 2008.8 qwerty kb |
| 11:28.42 | Dave | haha |
| 11:28.46 | Dave | use terminal, kthx |
| 11:28.58 | Dave | write a script, you ninny! |
| 11:28.59 | ieatlint | lol |
| 11:29.30 | Dave | reminds me of the original keyboard for 2007.2 (multitap-pad), had no / |
| 11:29.38 | Dave | SO USEFUL, ON A LINUX DEVICE |
| 11:30.11 | Infoport | terminal doesn't help-- that is where it is short several keys. I guess a script of ssh is the solution |
| 11:30.12 | prjktdtnt | dave: no kidding |
| 11:30.16 | Dave | kind of like Training Coach, in a state such as this one |
| 11:30.37 | Dave | It's almost as bad as "40 year old Student driver - WATCH OUT MOTHERFUCKERS" weewoo |
| 11:30.37 | lindi- | Infoport: just add that key there? |
| 11:30.43 | ieatlint | Infoport, connect it over wifi and ssh over wifi and save yourself a lot of trouble |
| 11:30.51 | Dave | lindi, wise one :) |
| 11:30.59 | si-m1 | Dave: and so useful on device with web browsing capabilities |
| 11:31.10 | Dave | si-mi, haha yeah |
| 11:31.12 | Dave | totally |
| 11:31.20 | Dave | I had to copy & paste from another application which could produce the / |
| 11:31.25 | lindi- | si-m1: i think the problem is not that it is missing but that so few people know how to add it there :) |
| 11:31.30 | Dave | people here were like oh snaps, look at his hacks! |
| 11:31.39 | Dave | I'm like, uggh people, IT SHOULDN'T BE LIKE THIS! |
| 11:31.43 | Dave | Hallo Mek :] |
| 11:31.52 | ieatlint | so fix it dave |
| 11:32.05 | Infoport | Dave I do that on the 'net sometimes rather than figure out how to add an umlaut, etc |
| 11:32.27 | ieatlint | ü is too bothersome, just use ue |
| 11:33.05 | ieatlint | someone add that unicode snowman char to the keyboard and i'll be happy |
| 11:33.09 | Infoport | ieatlint or to cheat for the "n" with tilda, etc etc |
| 11:33.27 | ieatlint | ahh deadkeys rule ... ñ |
| 11:33.50 | Dave | hah |
| 11:33.52 | Dave | yeah |
| 11:34.03 | Dave | ieatlint, affirmative! |
| 11:34.09 | prjktdtnt | aparently my laptop supports 1000ma |
| 11:34.13 | Dave | :D |
| 11:34.16 | Dave | sweet |
| 11:34.21 | Dave | just don't use any other usb devices! |
| 11:34.41 | prjktdtnt | luckily I have 2 different USB boards |
| 11:34.46 | *** join/#openmoko Tronic__ (i=tronic@zi.fi) |
| 11:34.59 | prjktdtnt | so I can use the phone from one side and my mouse on the other :D |
| 11:35.02 | *** join/#openmoko leinir (n=leinir@k5.natout.cs.aau.dk) |
| 11:35.03 | Dave | ☃ LINT ☃ |
| 11:35.07 | Dave | prjktdtnt: true :P |
| 11:35.23 | ieatlint | prjktdtnt, note that while your laptop may be able to put 1A through one port, it may not support 1A from one port, and 500mA from another |
| 11:35.25 | Dave | I can imagine lint amassing a mighty snowman army |
| 11:35.34 | prjktdtnt | inspiron 1420n |
| 11:35.35 | ieatlint | the usb controller will still handle it, so no harm |
| 11:35.36 | Dave | ieatlint, right |
| 11:35.51 | Dave | ieatsnowmen |
| 11:36.10 | ieatlint | Dave, ok, i'm renaming liblate to lib☃ |
| 11:36.25 | *** join/#openmoko hama (n=kvirc@p5084D7E5.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:36.26 | Dave | :D |
| 11:36.33 | Dave | I second the motion! |
| 11:36.38 | *** join/#openmoko DieMumiee (n=DieMumie@W0f27.w.pppool.de) |
| 11:36.41 | *** join/#openmoko ccube_ (n=ccube@ssh.ccube.de) |
| 11:37.06 | Dave | can we just call the new binary app ☃ ? |
| 11:37.14 | ieatlint | indeed |
| 11:37.18 | Dave | Excellent! |
| 11:37.20 | *** join/#openmoko raster (n=raster@124-170-38-16.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 11:37.20 | Dave | I approve :) |
| 11:37.26 | Dave | welcome back, rasterman |
| 11:37.40 | Infoport | ok I give up-- where do I edit the keyboard in 2008.8? its different than OM2007.2 (got to keep us on our toes) |
| 11:37.54 | Dave | :p |
| 11:37.56 | prjktdtnt | raster, your keyboard rocks! |
| 11:38.01 | Dave | no duh |
| 11:38.03 | *** join/#openmoko Tronic_ (i=tronic@zi.fi) |
| 11:38.03 | Infoport | Or even better, how do I put the full-qwerty in the mix (of flip-kbs) |
| 11:38.10 | prjktdtnt | if only it came as the pre-installed keyboard |
| 11:38.18 | lindi- | Infoport: indeed, this is the problem, people have trouble figuring out how to take part of the development :) |
| 11:38.35 | Dave | Now, the question you SHOULD be asking is, where do you go to donate to Raster? :P |
| 11:39.02 | *** join/#openmoko MarcOChapeau (n=mbarre@bgn92-4-82-238-213-101.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 11:39.56 | raster | prjktdtnt: thanks.. :) |
| 11:39.57 | ieatlint | raster doesn't like donations |
| 11:40.00 | Infoport | lindi- I'd love to develop for my FR, but I keep feeling like I have to re-invent the keyboard, or re-learn a process that changed since I checked the wiki |
| 11:40.10 | ieatlint | i tried to bribe him with a year's supply of beer and he brushed me off |
| 11:40.20 | raster | Dave: if u can donate me an extra 24hrs/day |
| 11:40.25 | raster | i'll take it! |
| 11:40.48 | *** join/#openmoko baku (n=b@host36-170-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 11:40.48 | Dave | :) |
| 11:41.02 | Dave | ieatlint :o |
| 11:41.37 | *** join/#openmoko HauDyr (n=kim@wnn73219.wireless.dtu.dk) |
| 11:41.44 | Dave | I wonder what the brew would taste like, with a dead body stuffed in the still. |
| 11:41.54 | Dave | Might add a unique taste, heh. |
| 11:41.58 | prjktdtnt | ieatlint: why raster won't accept a years supply of beer http://xkcd.com/323/ |
| 11:43.12 | raster | prjktdtnt: hahahaha |
| 11:43.33 | *** join/#openmoko Varox (n=Varox@p4FD46665.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:43.41 | XorA|gone | heh heh |
| 11:43.45 | Dave | Xora! |
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| 11:43.53 | Dave | We see you there, guffawing to our jests! |
| 11:44.35 | diego__ | talking about unit test, probably make sense doing unit test for dbus interfaces |
| 11:44.48 | Dave | We're going to have to have a talk, you and me, later. Specifically about those icons you said wouldn't be merged back in... to org.opemoko.dev |
| 11:44.51 | Dave | glares |
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| 11:46.38 | prjktdtnt | what is the timeout on locations to find a fix? |
| 11:47.01 | *** join/#openmoko krau (n=cktakaha@200.184.118.132) |
| 11:47.06 | Infoport | is there a way to put the Matchbox keyboard in, or to add mappings to the 2008.8 kbs? |
| 11:47.18 | raster | yup |
| 11:47.28 | raster | find the .desktop for the matchbox kbd |
| 11:47.32 | *** join/#openmoko slaxxin (n=brian@ip70-178-27-23.ks.ks.cox.net) |
| 11:47.35 | raster | then chaneg Categories to be |
| 11:47.52 | raster | Categories=System;Settings;Keyboard; |
| 11:48.06 | raster | and u'll need to get the illume "wrench" |
| 11:48.09 | *** join/#openmoko surf2me (n=surfer@unixboard/users/surf2me) |
| 11:48.14 | *** join/#openmoko edistar_ (n=edistar@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 11:48.17 | raster | to configur eillume to run the kbd |
| 11:48.29 | raster | and u'll need to edit 89qtopia and disable qpe's kbd... |
| 11:48.35 | raster | see the mailing list for details |
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| 11:52.54 | lindi- | Infoport: you just need to modify the existing keyboard? |
| 11:54.02 | Infoport | lindi- maybe I have more wrong with my install than that...I should have illume-config installed (it says I have it) but can't get the wrench either, and graphical install seems to hang |
| 11:54.36 | *** join/#openmoko Tronic_ (i=tronic@zi.fi) |
| 11:54.39 | lindi- | wrench? |
| 11:55.14 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 11:56.05 | Infoport | lindi- the illume-config wrench icoin that appears in upper left; it doesnt appear on this install even though it says it doesnt need o reinstall |
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| 11:57.06 | lindi- | Infoport: i'm not there yet, i haven't managed to build 2008.8 |
| 11:57.46 | Infoport | lindi- I'm just working from a flash of it (from early Sept, when I borked and reflashed phoned) |
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| 11:58.12 | F4t | can the freerunner boot from a usb disc-on-key? :) |
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| 11:58.49 | lindi- | Infoport: i am not able to develop anything if i can't compile it |
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| 12:00.56 | Infoport | /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm restart |
| 12:01.35 | Infoport | well that usually works :/ |
| 12:02.06 | Infoport | nope guess I'm in need of a left-handed spanner |
| 12:02.35 | Gnutoo | hello, how do i activate the GPS in FSO_milestone_III because tangogps doesn't seems to find my location when i click on autocenter... |
| 12:05.05 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@139.84-48-212.nextgentel.com) |
| 12:05.39 | Gnutoo | it puts me in the see near africa...and I'm in france... |
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| 12:09.12 | CM_work | Gnutoo: You almost made me answer with a politically incorrect joke.. :P |
| 12:09.44 | Gnutoo | CM_work, mmm.... |
| 12:10.46 | Gnutoo | CM_work, I think i've got my neo with the hardware fix for GPS...is it compatible with the software fix? |
| 12:11.41 | Gnutoo | because there is an electrical component that is solded between 2 sd pins |
| 12:11.51 | CM_work | I have an old gta01, and I haven't tried the gps for a while now |
| 12:12.05 | rwhitby | Gnutoo: use the zhone gps ui, and wait till you get a fix |
| 12:12.45 | Gnutoo | rwhitby, does zphone ui need a sim card to be in? |
| 12:12.50 | *** part/#openmoko alphabeat (n=nick@123-243-190-207.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 12:13.03 | rwhitby | no |
| 12:13.37 | rwhitby | hardware fix and software fix are fine together |
| 12:14.13 | Gnutoo | rwhitby, strange...when I click on the map icon it does nothing... |
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| 12:14.41 | Gnutoo | I re-reload it |
| 12:14.53 | Gnutoo | ah it works now |
| 12:15.02 | Gnutoo | (the ui...not the gps) |
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| 12:22.54 | mbuf | what is the terminal application in OM2008.8 ? |
| 12:25.26 | zogs | openmoko-term2..maybe |
| 12:25.42 | zogs | or openmoko-terminal? |
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| 12:29.01 | Gnutoo | rwhitby, still no fix... |
| 12:29.02 | JadeFalcon | openmoko-terminal2 :-) |
| 12:29.31 | rwhitby | Gnutoo: you're outside in the open air and not moving the phone in any way for 5 minutes? |
| 12:29.44 | rwhitby | (with clear 360deg view of the sky) |
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| 12:32.20 | Gnutoo | rwhitby, no i'm inside a building...but i thought it worked inside building...but less well |
| 12:32.47 | Infoport | later folks! usb host mode has given way to brain-suspend mode (and now sleep) |
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| 12:33.06 | diego__ | gnutoo: no, inside building hardly work... |
| 12:33.35 | Gnutoo | diego__, ok...does it work in a car without external antenna? |
| 12:33.52 | diego__ | yes |
| 12:33.59 | rwhitby | Gnutoo: you're unlikely to get a *first* fix inside a building. once you have a first fix, it usually continues to work inside a building if you're lucky. |
| 12:34.13 | Gnutoo | rwhitby, ah ok... |
| 12:34.14 | diego__ | plastic and glass are not a problem at all |
| 12:34.14 | rwhitby | remember that you *must* be stationary for first fix |
| 12:34.24 | Gnutoo | rwhitby, ok |
| 12:34.29 | rwhitby | don't even rotate around a fixed point |
| 12:35.15 | rwhitby | the gps chip doesn't know where in the world you are, and needs to listen very carefully and for a long time to get the data which tells it where the sats are flying |
| 12:35.21 | rwhitby | if you move, it resets the timer |
| 12:35.54 | rwhitby | once it knows how to listen, it can deal with less signal |
| 12:35.56 | Gnutoo | rwhitby, ouch...ok |
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| 12:47.39 | RedFlash | hi, i want to create a sample application for the freerunner (om 2008.8), I followed these instructions: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Toolchain ... wored fine .... but i need to add some png' |
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| 12:48.06 | RedFlash | i placed them into the data folder .. but on the freerunner i can't find them after installing |
| 12:48.44 | *** part/#openmoko Daramarak2 (n=ivannedr@138.80-203-148.nextgentel.com) |
| 12:49.17 | RedFlash | do I have to add them in Makefile.in / .am ? and where are they stored on the freerunner ? |
| 12:53.28 | lindi- | RedFlash: isn't .in generated from .am? |
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| 12:57.53 | RedFlash | I don't know ... but in .am I found "appicondir = $(datadir)/pixmaps" in |
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| 12:58.28 | baba_melone | Hi. I read the instructions to install Debian manually on Neo Freerunner, but then saw, that Id need more than the 512mb that are available on the standard sd card, and as I have not bought a larger card yet, I cannot install Debian this way. How much space do I need on the card, to do it that way, and how much space does the debian system cost all in all |
| 12:58.29 | RedFlash | but this is only for the App icon ... maybe for the other images I should use a diffrent location ? |
| 12:58.48 | baba_melone | http://wiki.debian.org/DebianOnFreeRunner |
| 12:58.58 | *** join/#openmoko Marcel_M (n=Marcel_M@86.59.65.236) |
| 12:59.07 | baba_melone | http://wiki.debian.org/DebianOnFreeRunner = 'that way', i forgot to tell |
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| 13:01.11 | baba_melone | Besides I didnt find any information on how long the neo runs with debian and whether it wakes up from suspend when the phone is receiving a call |
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| 13:01.17 | spdr_ | anyone got an idea where i can get a package for perl-rawip? compiling from scratch should be a mess :\ |
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| 13:04.09 | prjktdtnt | ok so I installed all the proper illume pacakges and lo-and-behold there's no wrench |
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| 13:04.43 | prjktdtnt | going to reboot the phone one more time |
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| 13:04.54 | gromez | prjktdtnt: which distro ? |
| 13:05.05 | prjktdtnt | gromez: sorry om2008.8-update |
| 13:05.19 | nomeata | baba_melone: the installer works with a 512MB card. suspending and stuff works like in the FSO image |
| 13:05.35 | gromez | prjktdtnt: ps aux | grep illume |
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| 13:05.47 | prjktdtnt | gromez: phone is still restarting |
| 13:05.58 | prjktdtnt | again |
| 13:06.02 | gromez | prjktdtnt: ok :) |
| 13:06.21 | prjktdtnt | i'm thinking it may just not have properly started illume-config |
| 13:06.44 | prjktdtnt | or whatever writes that wrench to the gui anyway |
| 13:06.48 | gromez | prjktdtnt: check /etc/enlightenment/default_profile |
| 13:07.05 | prjktdtnt | ok |
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| 13:07.23 | *** join/#openmoko alx___ (n=alx@89.131.177.156) |
| 13:07.26 | sledgeas | hello fellows |
| 13:07.43 | alx___ | will something break if I just keep illume-keyboards-terminal and remove the others? |
| 13:07.48 | alx___ | hello sledgeas |
| 13:07.54 | prjktdtnt | E_PROFILE="-profile asu" |
| 13:08.07 | gromez | prjktdtnt: s/asu/illume/ ;) |
| 13:08.09 | *** join/#openmoko Tronic__ (i=tronic@zi.fi) |
| 13:08.35 | sledgeas | i associate with iwconfig eth0 essid (name) successfully, but neither dhclient nor udhcpc eth0 not work (Om2008.8, last update august 31, usb internt does not work -- cannot run opkg update, on zhone/debian wif(dhcp)i works without problems) |
| 13:08.46 | prjktdtnt | don't use vi, i installed nano although I need to get emacs running on it |
| 13:09.02 | prjktdtnt | restarting x-server now though |
| 13:09.15 | gromez | yeah |
| 13:09.31 | alx___ | will it blend? |
| 13:09.41 | alx___ | :D |
| 13:09.46 | sledgeas | :D |
| 13:09.47 | *** join/#openmoko Tronic_ (i=tronic@zi.fi) |
| 13:09.47 | prjktdtnt | alx: probably |
| 13:10.25 | alx___ | would be a great ad for the moko, who's putting his in? :) |
| 13:10.41 | *** part/#openmoko charlie137 (n=charlie@firewall.tw.openmoko.org) |
| 13:10.43 | prjktdtnt | w00t, no more qtopia keyboard |
| 13:10.49 | prjktdtnt | thanks gromez |
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| 13:11.01 | gromez | prjktdtnt: np :) |
| 13:11.39 | prjktdtnt | now do I want to get GPRS working again or not...hmmmm |
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| 13:15.19 | LittleIdiot | is there anything like "libgsmd-tool" in the qtopia mobile stack? |
| 13:15.53 | LittleIdiot | ...a pointer to documentation would be good, but so far i haven't found any documentation about the mobile stack |
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| 13:37.53 | sledgeas | ok, this is an easy one: how to mount NAND root fs partition whilst being booted on sd card (debian) |
| 13:37.54 | sledgeas | ? |
| 13:38.25 | lindi- | sledgeas: just use mount normally? |
| 13:38.33 | sledgeas | yes, what's the device for NAND? |
| 13:38.38 | lindi- | sledgeas: mtdblock* |
| 13:38.46 | sledgeas | thanks! ;) |
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| 13:46.26 | lambda | without gesture utility is it possible to rotate the terminal ? |
| 13:46.57 | lambda | for better ergonomics |
| 13:47.01 | zash | xrandr |
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| 13:47.06 | lambda | ok |
| 13:47.17 | zash | -o left or right i think |
| 13:47.44 | sledgeas | lindi-: sorry i formulated the wrong question, i need a device of SDRAM 256, how do i mount it while being on SD card? |
| 13:47.45 | lambda | even on tty ? |
| 13:48.00 | lindi- | sledgeas: SDRAM 256? |
| 13:48.08 | sledgeas | SDREAM 256 MB (or 512MB) |
| 13:48.12 | zash | lambda: that might be tricky |
| 13:48.12 | sledgeas | *SDRAM |
| 13:48.15 | lindi- | sledgeas: what's that? |
| 13:48.20 | sledgeas | internal memory |
| 13:48.34 | sledgeas | where Om2007.2 is initially ept |
| 13:48.36 | sledgeas | kept |
| 13:48.41 | lindi- | sledgeas: you mean RAM? |
| 13:48.43 | sledgeas | yes |
| 13:48.44 | zash | lambda: xrander does stuff to x |
| 13:48.49 | sledgeas | when one receives his/her FR |
| 13:48.50 | lindi- | sledgeas: well, your kernel and applications are in RAM |
| 13:48.57 | lindi- | sledgeas: what do you want to mount from that? |
| 13:48.57 | sledgeas | hmmm |
| 13:49.06 | sledgeas | pardon again lmao |
| 13:49.10 | sledgeas | i need some sleep :D |
| 13:49.26 | sledgeas | nope, i want the internal persistent flash memory |
| 13:49.28 | lindi- | but /dev/ram exists though |
| 13:49.35 | lambda | i finally got my usb keyboard working on X |
| 13:49.37 | lambda | :-) |
| 13:49.43 | zash | lambda: sweet |
| 13:49.52 | lambda | and on MS3 |
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| 13:50.07 | lambda | nice release ; many improvments |
| 13:50.43 | matholio_ | is there any way to calibrate the touchscreen on debian build ? |
| 13:50.50 | lindi- | sledgeas: then mtdblock* |
| 13:50.54 | sledgeas | hmm |
| 13:51.09 | zash | matholio_: is there a ts_calibrate or something? |
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| 13:51.17 | lindi- | matholio_: isn't the calibration data already there in some nand partition? |
| 13:51.28 | sledgeas | lindi-: but mtdblock* was cursing on -t ext2 except mtdblock5 which yielded a fs with files like wlan bt etc and lost+found/ and that's it |
| 13:51.46 | sledgeas | oh, it's mtdblock6 -t jffs2 ! |
| 13:51.51 | sledgeas | thanks , no problem, going to sleep :D |
| 13:53.45 | Gnutoo | hello again...The wifi works with which kernel? |
| 13:53.57 | matholio_ | thanks, sorted. |
| 13:54.30 | Gnutoo | because on FSO_milestone_ii it doesn't seems to work |
| 13:54.34 | lindi- | sledgeas: file -sL /dev/mtdblock* |
| 13:54.37 | Gnutoo | s/II/III |
| 13:54.50 | sledgeas | thanks :) |
| 13:55.46 | sledgeas | Gnutoo: FYI: i am having problems with dhcp (dhclient, udhcpc -- both(!)), wifi itself works, but i'm using Om2008 of August 31st, about to upgrade |
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| 13:56.53 | Gnutoo | sledgeas, ok thanks |
| 13:57.10 | sledgeas | are you having problems with dhcps* ? |
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| 13:58.11 | sledgeas | Gnutoo: (PS: in debian everything works ok even with dhclient3, having old kernel (July 26(?)) and Sep 3rd updated rootfs) |
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| 13:58.39 | Gnutoo | sledgeas, wow...so mabe i'll use debian |
| 13:58.58 | sledgeas | for 100% having a working wifi, sure |
| 13:59.40 | Sup3rkiddo | anyone have a link to the SVG of the openmoko logo along with the "open, mobile, free" caption? |
| 14:00.41 | *** join/#openmoko Tronic (i=tronic@zi.fi) |
| 14:00.46 | ronny | btw, any plans to get hotplug for the micro-sd? |
| 14:04.15 | *** join/#openmoko Torikun (n=rusher@astound-69-42-18-131.ca.astound.net) |
| 14:04.15 | morricone | ronny, i already change the microsd while the neo is running |
| 14:04.50 | ronny | morricone: uh, one would have to remove the battery and the sim to get to the sdcard |
| 14:04.51 | *** part/#openmoko Torikun (n=rusher@astound-69-42-18-131.ca.astound.net) |
| 14:05.14 | morricone | yes |
| 14:05.29 | morricone | is used the wallcharger |
| 14:05.32 | morricone | *i |
| 14:05.38 | *** join/#openmoko retracile (n=eli@76-204-213-211.lightspeed.allntx.sbcglobal.net) |
| 14:05.38 | ronny | morricone: well, thats not really hot plug |
| 14:05.51 | ronny | it should work like anywhere |
| 14:05.59 | morricone | no, bit it isn't a driver problem |
| 14:06.02 | morricone | *but |
| 14:06.17 | ronny | well, its a hardware issue |
| 14:08.19 | *** join/#openmoko DieMumiee (n=DieMumie@W0f27.w.pppool.de) |
| 14:10.33 | Tig| | Gnutoo: I had fully working wireless on Milestone2, connecting to a WPA-PSK network |
| 14:12.00 | Gnutoo | Tig|, ok...i tried wireless on om2008.8 and milestone3...and it didn't work even with iwconfig eth0 DartyBox_number key mykey && ifconfig eth0 192.168.1.101 && ping 192.168.1.254 |
| 14:12.41 | Tig| | Gnutoo: is that a WEP network/ |
| 14:12.42 | Tig| | ? |
| 14:12.52 | Gnutoo | Tig|, yes... |
| 14:13.08 | Gnutoo | wep with hexadecimal key |
| 14:13.17 | *** join/#openmoko OdyX` (n=OdyX@23-195.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 14:13.29 | Tig| | no idea what is going on there then :( |
| 14:13.43 | Gnutoo | ok |
| 14:13.51 | Tig| | daft question you did remember to power up the wifi first :) |
| 14:13.58 | Gnutoo | thanks anyway...i'll try with an open wifi |
| 14:14.16 | Gnutoo | oops...i have forgetten to write ifconfig eth0 up at the beginning |
| 14:14.17 | ronny | hmm |
| 14:15.06 | *** join/#openmoko mickey|mdd08 (n=mickey@92.116.10.156) |
| 14:15.49 | *** join/#openmoko froksen_ (n=froksen@87.54.254.190) |
| 14:16.57 | *** join/#openmoko vaiursch (n=erwin@84-75-29-2.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 14:22.37 | *** join/#openmoko Pyrasi (n=dan@128.163.253.183) |
| 14:22.59 | Pyrasi | sooo....FSO milestone 3....anyone tried it yet? |
| 14:23.33 | *** part/#openmoko cgerum (n=christop@f048011146.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 14:25.57 | toggles_w | Pyrasi: yep, it's nice, very pretty |
| 14:26.36 | Pyrasi | does it work well? |
| 14:26.42 | khaije1 | is OM no longer selling the FR via it's website? |
| 14:27.03 | toggles_w | wokrs ok for me, crashes every now and then |
| 14:27.39 | *** join/#openmoko alfatangoxt (n=michele@host177-110-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 14:28.19 | Pyrasi | also....does the new d-bus gps system (gypsy i guess) work with current gpsd programs (aka tangogps)? |
| 14:28.43 | *** join/#openmoko faltantornillos (n=yo@81.202.151.120.dyn.user.ono.com) |
| 14:28.52 | toggles_w | Pyrasi not sure, there is a zhone gps thing that works, but doesn't do mapping |
| 14:29.32 | mickey|mdd08 | we're going to ship fso-gpsd soon |
| 14:29.33 | mickey|mdd08 | compat layer |
| 14:29.56 | mickey|mdd08 | it's already in git, just needs to be packaged as ipk |
| 14:31.56 | Pyrasi | ohh....neat |
| 14:32.22 | mickey|mdd08 | yap |
| 14:32.34 | mickey|mdd08 | will make it all gpsd apps work |
| 14:32.36 | Pyrasi | so that will be like a gpsd wrapper for the new fso gps? |
| 14:32.37 | mickey|mdd08 | seamlessly :) |
| 14:32.37 | Pyrasi | cool |
| 14:32.44 | mickey|mdd08 | yep |
| 14:32.49 | *** join/#openmoko asciiforever (n=Jon@74-131-26-229.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 14:32.53 | *** join/#openmoko bentob0x (n=laurent@ip-213-49-80-173.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 14:32.56 | Pyrasi | I'm excited to flash it |
| 14:32.57 | mickey|mdd08 | looks like gpsd, uses fso gpsd with increased precision et. al. under the hood |
| 14:34.11 | *** join/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@229-219.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 14:34.24 | Pyrasi | I'll flash it when i get out of class......distributed operating systems is sooo boring =/ |
| 14:34.30 | mickey|mdd08 | hehe |
| 14:34.39 | mickey|mdd08 | ya, i always found that quite esoteric |
| 14:34.46 | *** join/#openmoko flavioribeiro (n=flaviori@201-65-98-68.poolip.JPA.embratel.net.br) |
| 14:35.07 | Pyrasi | I really like the new yaml rules interface |
| 14:35.24 | Pyrasi | i cant wait to mess with that |
| 14:35.32 | *** join/#openmoko blan (n=blan@dslb-092-075-069-020.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 14:35.35 | mickey|mdd08 | ya, that's so powerful |
| 14:35.45 | mickey|mdd08 | we need to see what kind of rules we should provide |
| 14:35.52 | mickey|mdd08 | will increase that based on user needs |
| 14:35.53 | *** join/#openmoko jtickle (n=jtickle@ip-152010152154.ess.appstate.edu) |
| 14:36.05 | mickey|mdd08 | s/rules/descriptional complexity/ |
| 14:37.09 | CM_work | Why yaml btw? |
| 14:37.27 | Pyrasi | So were you able to get the suspend working well? I remember that was the last thing you were working on....and i figured that would be a doozy that would take a while....I was impressed when it was released today |
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| 14:38.01 | mickey|mdd08 | CM_work: good question. one of the team came up with that. ask charlie |
| 14:38.20 | mickey|mdd08 | we just reverted back to the stable kernel |
| 14:38.24 | mickey|mdd08 | was using andy kernel before |
| 14:38.31 | CM_work | It's nice, but so far I like json more |
| 14:38.35 | mickey|mdd08 | which never woke up :/ |
| 14:38.54 | mickey|mdd08 | i don't have a clue about any of these languages |
| 14:38.58 | mickey|mdd08 | but it's not set in stone |
| 14:39.05 | mickey|mdd08 | lets get some experience |
| 14:39.12 | CM_work | The yaml.org homepage is in yaml |
| 14:39.14 | mickey|mdd08 | then check whether yaml is up to the task |
| 14:39.21 | ronny | mickey|mdd08: i failed finding that gconf sucessor, got any more pointers? |
| 14:39.24 | CM_work | So you can see what it looks like :) |
| 14:39.58 | ronny | well, yaml is kinda bad |
| 14:40.02 | ronny | full of special cases |
| 14:40.10 | ronny | json is more normalized |
| 14:40.53 | mickey|mdd08 | ronny: called dconf |
| 14:41.00 | mickey|mdd08 | author is Ryan something |
| 14:42.26 | mickey|mdd08 | ryan lortie |
| 14:42.45 | CM_work | ronny: That's what I've heard too |
| 14:43.26 | mickey|mdd08 | like i said |
| 14:43.28 | mickey|mdd08 | it's open |
| 14:43.33 | mickey|mdd08 | charlie even wanted to use python |
| 14:43.39 | mickey|mdd08 | but i don#t want a full language |
| 14:43.45 | mickey|mdd08 | for the rules |
| 14:44.02 | mickey|mdd08 | as we might want to go to more C |
| 14:44.13 | mickey|mdd08 | and then we need a python interpreter in C embedded |
| 14:44.21 | CM_work | Heh |
| 14:44.29 | CM_work | KISS is always good |
| 14:44.34 | mickey|mdd08 | *nod* |
| 14:44.40 | mickey|mdd08 | just not too simple |
| 14:44.46 | mickey|mdd08 | so we need to check whether we can express our ideas in yalm |
| 14:44.55 | mickey|mdd08 | or whether it's too limiting |
| 14:44.56 | mickey|mdd08 | dunno |
| 14:45.43 | *** join/#openmoko jave (n=user@79.138.216.160.bredband.tre.se) |
| 14:45.48 | jave | hi |
| 14:45.56 | CM_work | Hello |
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| 14:45.58 | *** part/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@229-219.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 14:46.01 | khaije1 | is there a date set for milestone 4? (sorry is this is a tired question) |
| 14:46.24 | khaije1 | also is anyone else having problems viewing videos in youtube? |
| 14:46.51 | Pyrasi | oh the freerunner? |
| 14:46.54 | Pyrasi | on^ |
| 14:46.58 | Gnutoo | khaije1, with gnash or with mplayer? |
| 14:47.20 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 14:47.35 | khaije1 | i have the adobe player installed, the videos just don't load, i'm just wondering if it's working for anyone else, anyone at all.. |
| 14:48.02 | Pyrasi | btw....does FSO wake up from suspend on incoming sms/call? |
| 14:48.33 | *** join/#openmoko charlie137 (n=guillaum@220-136-176-205.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 14:48.57 | Gnutoo | khaije1, adobe binaries won't work on the freerunner because they are compiled for x86... |
| 14:49.17 | khaije1 | haha, sorry, i meant on a pc :) |
| 14:49.22 | Pyrasi | ohhhhh |
| 14:50.14 | Pyrasi | well...class is over...bye all |
| 14:50.30 | *** part/#openmoko Pyrasi (n=dan@128.163.253.183) |
| 14:50.33 | CM_work | mickey|mdd08: Had to read up some on it. Wikipedia says "JSON syntax is nearly a subset of YAML and most JSON documents can be parsed by a YAML parser." |
| 14:51.13 | mickey|mdd08 | ok, need to move to central station |
| 14:51.17 | mickey|mdd08 | gonna catch my train to Frankfurt |
| 14:51.21 | mickey|mdd08 | cu later |
| 14:51.24 | CM_work | later |
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| 15:04.47 | mwester | Ok, so what's the magic to being able to bring up some sort of GUI for SMS in FSO MS3? Or am I missing something, and there is no GUI yet? |
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| 15:13.09 | mwester | Hmm... it doesn't actually suspend when it puts the message in the log file: INFO IDLE STATE = SUSPEND |
| 15:13.27 | mwester | wonders where the suspend logic is in zhone |
| 15:13.35 | Tig| | mwester you click on the rollerdex type icon irrc |
| 15:13.37 | Tig| | iirc |
| 15:13.59 | Tig| | then use the middle button at the bottom |
| 15:14.09 | *** join/#openmoko ayeuu (n=ayeuu@tss37-1-82-228-161-185.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 15:14.13 | nomeata | mwester: that does not mean suspend, as in "apm -s". it’s just a name for an inanctivity state |
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| 15:14.41 | mwester | nomeata: that's a bummer. |
| 15:14.42 | *** join/#openmoko qhartman (n=qhartman@74.93.188.113) |
| 15:15.01 | nomeata | mwester: you want automatic suspend? hmm. as far as I know, you’ll have to hack that yourself. |
| 15:15.27 | mwester | I was rather hoping I could use MS3 as a working image to use to debug the kernel suspend/resume stuff, since there are no other images that work right. :( |
| 15:15.31 | mwester | Oh well. |
| 15:15.42 | nomeata | mwester: well, you can suspend with the power button |
| 15:15.59 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 15:16.13 | nomeata | mwester: just hold it for more than one or two seconds. |
| 15:17.10 | *** join/#openmoko Torikun (n=rusher@astound-69-42-18-131.ca.astound.net) |
| 15:17.10 | mwester | I wonder if folks are not implementing suspend, because they are waiting for better kernel support -- while the kernel folks wait for an image that uses it, so that they can make the kernel work better with it. (Manual suspend is inadequate; doesn't test real-life suspend/resume scenarios) |
| 15:17.37 | *** join/#openmoko LetoTo1 (n=paul@76-10-173-74.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
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| 15:19.54 | mwester | Tig|: The rollodex thingy lets me enter contact info (name and number) but I don't see where it lets me send an SMS. The letter icon doesn't do anything, so that can't be it. |
| 15:20.15 | Tig| | hang on will get my moko :) |
| 15:20.55 | Tig| | it is the letters one |
| 15:20.56 | CIA-22 | freesmartphone.org: 03mail 07zhone * r660eadb4c5f4 10/src/zhone: Also look in the current path for zhone.edj |
| 15:21.15 | Tig| | then press the four squares button in the bottom middle |
| 15:21.32 | mwester | The letters icon does nothing. |
| 15:21.57 | mwester | Ok, well, clearly something not right. I guess I'll send in some debug info |
| 15:21.57 | Tig| | the one with the letters and the paperclip ? |
| 15:22.01 | mwester | That's the one. |
| 15:22.12 | Tig| | that will then bring up and empty screen |
| 15:22.16 | Tig| | as there are no messages |
| 15:22.31 | mwester | Nope, stays on the main screen. |
| 15:22.43 | Tig| | hmmm FR or Neo? |
| 15:22.58 | mwester | FR |
| 15:23.12 | Tig| | I have milestone 3 on the FR here and it works |
| 15:23.49 | Tig| | it is a pita to use imho but it works |
| 15:24.09 | Tig| | you have to have the numbers in the addressbook to use it though |
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| 15:27.27 | nomeata | The problem with the SMS and concacts view is that it is now only shown when registration works |
| 15:28.04 | nomeata | which is not perfect. It should rather disable sending SMS and dialing if it can not register, but still let me have a look at the message book |
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| 15:31.33 | *** part/#openmoko IRCReader (n=wing@S010600c049d9e31b.cg.shawcable.net) |
| 15:34.12 | CIA-22 | freesmartphone.org: 03mail 07zhone * r71fc58fd4d5c 10/src/zhone: Retreive SMS and contacs even when registration fails |
| 15:34.21 | nomeata | ok, fixed now :) |
| 15:34.41 | Tig| | :) |
| 15:35.32 | mwester | :) Yeah, but since the feeds are not in sync with the image, one can't upgrade! |
| 15:35.59 | nomeata | well, I think I’ll put out a new debian image with my changes :-) |
| 15:36.02 | mwester | I'll get a new image from bearstech when it gets built. |
| 15:36.43 | nomeata | (but I’ll wait for some of the real devs to see what I have done. Maybe they’ll shudder with horror and revert it) |
| 15:37.28 | *** join/#openmoko |hama| (n=kvirc@p5084FDAA.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:37.39 | mwester | In the meantime, I'll flash a kernel with some proper GSM debugging support, and see if there's something else going on under the covers with registration with MS3. |
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| 15:40.32 | lindi- | mwester: gsm debugging support? |
| 15:40.42 | lindi- | nomeata: what's the deal with the fso-frameworkd regressions? |
| 15:41.00 | nomeata | lindi-: which regression do you mean? |
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| 15:41.25 | mwester | lindi-: http://moko.mwester.net/nspy.html |
| 15:42.46 | nomeata | lindi-: the activation of the SMS and contacts menu entry in zhone is not very robust, but otherwise it seems fine. |
| 15:43.08 | nomeata | oh, and we lost zhone’s status information, because we still don’t have illume |
| 15:43.14 | polz | is anyone here using FSO on an 1973 ? |
| 15:43.35 | *** join/#openmoko norro_ (n=norro@e181119165.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 15:43.53 | brian_ | no sms here either |
| 15:44.19 | lindi- | nomeata: ah, i hear that sms did not work at all |
| 15:44.22 | wurp2|working | |hama| told me yesterday that he got smses, but they took hours to arrive |
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| 15:45.08 | wurp2|working | (which sounds as if it would be a cell provider issue, but I'm just reporting what I heard) |
| 15:45.28 | *** part/#openmoko Torikun (n=rusher@astound-69-42-18-131.ca.astound.net) |
| 15:47.29 | mwester | It doesn't like to stay registered; it's reregistering with the network every few seconds (like some of the other images do): http://pastebin.com/d4b30c1fa |
| 15:47.38 | brian_ | at&t |
| 15:47.46 | brian_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:48.06 | brian_ | <PROTECTED> |
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| 15:49.50 | nomeata | brian_: no SMS button active, or sending/receiving SMS fails? |
| 15:50.36 | brian_ | thats my problem |
| 15:50.54 | nomeata | brian_: eh, which one now? |
| 15:51.05 | brian_ | well wait |
| 15:51.32 | brian_ | the button has never been active |
| 15:51.53 | brian_ | segistering now |
| 15:52.30 | brian_ | enlightnment seg'd |
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| 15:53.36 | nomeata | brian_: then you can try out this patch: http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=zhone.git;a=commit;h=71fc58fd4d5cfd5e56bcb6e32d1603bee9e21ec1 |
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| 15:57.11 | nomeata | The version of numptypysics in FSO-m2, is that the released version 0.2, or a later one? |
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| 15:59.41 | Dave | heh |
| 15:59.48 | Dave | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:00.52 | slaxxin | yes the sms box never opens up an im on at&t |
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| 16:02.55 | slaxxin | the sms button just blinks slightly where the buttons that do work stay on 1 second |
| 16:03.27 | Ko_deZ | Hey. I read something about an "echo fix" on the qtopia page. Any info on what that is? |
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| 16:09.36 | *** join/#openmoko vaiursch (n=erwin@84-75-29-2.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 16:10.31 | wurp2|working | Ko_deZ: someone found some proprietary commands, AT%SOMETHING, that turn on echo suppression |
| 16:10.59 | wurp2|working | Ko_deZ: If you send those commands before each call, and get the volume levels right, apparently the echo goes away |
| 16:12.40 | Ko_deZ | wurp2|working: That is nice. Did not make much of a difference in Dubai though. Maybe I have to do a full reflash of my phone? I just did the upgrade thing. |
| 16:12.41 | *** join/#openmoko Gnutoo (n=gnutoo@50.118-226-89.dsl.completel.net) |
| 16:13.26 | wurp2|working | Ko_deZ: There were two different fixes; I'm not sure if both are in there or not. |
| 16:13.51 | wurp2|working | Ko_deZ: The initial command worked for a lot of people, but some guy still had issues, and he found another command that got rid of his issues. |
| 16:14.08 | Ko_deZ | Two fixes. Both doing the same thing, or something else entirely? |
| 16:14.14 | wurp2|working | Ko_deZ: I would think upgrade would work fine.. |
| 16:14.28 | Ko_deZ | except the obvious common thing, fixing the echo =) |
| 16:14.42 | wurp2|working | They just issue two different commands. There are 4 or 5 commands having to do with echo suppression/cancellation |
| 16:14.46 | Ko_deZ | Right. Maybe my provider where causing some echo then. |
| 16:15.14 | slaxxin | well tango reports me running 67 an im setting still |
| 16:15.40 | wurp2|working | I dunno whether you need to issue different ones for different networks, or issue both all the time, or what |
| 16:15.45 | Ko_deZ | Okay. That sounds like a good solution. I was considering putting a little effort into making a filter of some sort to do the same. Hardware doing the work is better, and I presume it is also with less lag. |
| 16:17.41 | Bill | ok.. time to try out ms3 |
| 16:18.47 | Gnutoo | wow...in FSO_III i typed mi[tab] (wanted minicom)and got Mickey's Term V2.9.1 @ /dev/pts/5...and I can type AT commands...but does Zhone can still receive call when i do this? |
| 16:18.58 | *** join/#openmoko andrenarchy (n=andrenar@dslb-084-057-064-032.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 16:19.17 | lindi- | Gnutoo: use cli-frameworkd |
| 16:19.36 | Gnutoo | lindi-, ok thanks |
| 16:19.59 | hadara | I just got the freerunner and installed the 2008.8 image from 09.03 to sd card to see if it works any better. It seems to have awful electronic buzzing noice all over the mic input so other end can barely hear me... this bug wasn't present in the sw image the phone came with (2007.2?) |
| 16:20.06 | hadara | I wonder if it's something known ? |
| 16:20.39 | slaxxin | i wonder alot of other things:( |
| 16:22.02 | Gnutoo | lindi-, what python class does implement the access to the phonebook on sim? |
| 16:23.24 | *** join/#openmoko RedFlash (n=RedFlash@host106-110-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 16:24.21 | lindi- | Gnutoo: freesmartphone.org has api docs |
| 16:24.46 | Gnutoo | lindi-, ah ok...i'll look at it because doing dir() isn't great |
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| 16:33.59 | slaxxin | hadara september 08 was ok |
| 16:34.12 | Gnutoo | mmm...I think that my contacts are inside my old phone memory... |
| 16:35.27 | slaxxin | blender time |
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| 16:40.06 | |hama| | http://my-distribution.org/ down? |
| 16:44.47 | *** join/#openmoko baba_melone (n=baba_mel@p4FD7DFC8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:45.18 | baba_melone | Hi Ive got a question concerning wlan of the neo freerunner |
| 16:45.45 | *** join/#openmoko rddDavid51 (n=roudoudo@gar31-1-82-224-8-235.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 16:45.48 | |hama| | can some1 check if http://my-distribution.org/ is down? |
| 16:45.51 | baba_melone | Its extremely slow for me although Im quite near to the accesspoint and i should have 1024 kbit/s downstream |
| 16:46.18 | baba_melone | but I dont get beyond 1.8 kb/s = 14 kbit/s |
| 16:46.44 | baba_melone | yeah, it is down |
| 16:46.55 | |hama| | baba_melone: r |
| 16:47.02 | |hama| | err, thx |
| 16:47.04 | baba_melone | or at least I cant establish a connection although the host name is resolved |
| 16:48.27 | |hama| | baba_melone: sry cant help with your speed-prob... is it much faster using network via usb? |
| 16:49.03 | Bill | oh god how much time the backup of rootfs takes.. |
| 16:49.31 | baba_melone | havent tried usb yet |
| 16:49.37 | |hama| | Bill: so you can take a bath weanwhile? :P |
| 16:49.55 | baba_melone | too long way to go to turn my laptop into a router |
| 16:50.01 | Bill | 20 minutes and still going |
| 16:50.27 | |hama| | baba_melone: would be intresting how fast this wil be... wifi is faster than usb, thats what i feel here... |
| 16:50.40 | *** join/#openmoko zuzuzzzip (n=zuzuzzzi@madoka.isw.student.khleuven.be) |
| 16:51.09 | baba_melone | |hama| how fast your wifi connection |
| 16:51.29 | |hama| | Bill: i have heared that the freerunner was fully concepted during flashing the gta01... |
| 16:51.31 | *** join/#openmoko unknown_lamer (n=clinton@cpe-071-065-238-103.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 16:52.10 | Gnutoo | lindi-, can it retrive previously accepted phonecalls? or is it inside the PIM api that isn't programmed yet? |
| 16:52.31 | |hama| | baba_melone: how can i test this now? FR is connected through usb now.... |
| 16:52.38 | Bill | |hama|: you sound like jeremy clarkson |
| 16:53.04 | |hama| | Bill: wtf is jeremy clarkson? mom, google will help... |
| 16:53.20 | *** join/#openmoko mickey|mdd08 (n=mickey@92.116.60.225) |
| 16:53.37 | *** join/#openmoko milo_ (n=nilsense@dslb-088-078-228-154.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 16:53.50 | Bill | "some say that it was disained while they flashed gta01 and some say that one one day it will be able to call.. all we know is - it's called the Freerunner" |
| 16:54.06 | *** join/#openmoko alfatangoxt (n=michele@host244-63-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 16:54.09 | *** join/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@229-219.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 16:54.11 | |hama| | :)) |
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| 16:59.28 | *** join/#openmoko TAsnn (n=tasn@89.1.62.49.dynamic.barak-online.net) |
| 16:59.46 | baba_melone | anyone else encountering my wlan problem |
| 17:00.42 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=rudi@dsbg-4db5f9c3.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 17:01.15 | *** join/#openmoko |hama| (n=kvirc@p5084FDAA.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:01.26 | CIA-22 | freesmartphone.org: 03mail 07zhone * r444fb114fb79 10/src/zhone: retab my recent code to follow fso style |
| 17:04.16 | *** join/#openmoko cheng (n=cheng@xGagB214.WH1.TU-Dresden.De) |
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| 17:19.05 | *** join/#openmoko drac2000 (n=drac2000@67.71.240.194) |
| 17:19.58 | Gnutoo | anyone...how is it possible to retrive the missed calls in FSO? even with cli-framework or AT commands... |
| 17:20.52 | mickey|ICE971 | no, nothing is recording missed calls |
| 17:20.59 | mickey|ICE971 | should be a simple python app though |
| 17:21.06 | mickey|ICE971 | just listen for events |
| 17:21.22 | mickey|ICE971 | and record if 'incoming' is followed by 'release', without 'active' in between |
| 17:22.59 | drac2000 | DOES SOMEBODY KNOW HOW TO MAKE SCREENSHOTS on Openmoko under OM 2007.2 ? |
| 17:23.35 | Sup3rkiddo | drac2000, press the aux button? |
| 17:23.49 | johnsu01 | What opkg feeds should I be using with qtopia? |
| 17:24.29 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@pdpc/supporter/active/bluelightning) |
| 17:25.37 | *** join/#openmoko MHazem (n=Satan@41.196.55.24) |
| 17:25.49 | drac2000 | Thanks a lot <Sup3rkiddo> |
| 17:26.05 | jaj | does somebody know where the caps lock key is on the Openmoko? |
| 17:26.08 | drac2000 | it is obvious and i was looking for it for a while :-( |
| 17:26.19 | XorA | slide finger up/down to change |
| 17:26.22 | Sup3rkiddo | drac2000, :D |
| 17:26.32 | drac2000 | thks again |
| 17:26.37 | Sup3rkiddo | happy to help |
| 17:26.59 | *** part/#openmoko charlie137 (n=guillaum@220-136-176-205.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 17:27.07 | jaj | XorA: that was just an ironic way of telling drac2000 to not write in caps |
| 17:27.35 | Sup3rkiddo | hehe |
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| 17:34.44 | CIA-22 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * r78e5cc381ac6 10/odeviced/README: modify README |
| 17:37.26 | *** join/#openmoko tedo (n=cta@HSI-KBW-078-042-027-007.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) |
| 17:38.19 | *** join/#openmoko fobos (n=fobos@78.90.88.244) |
| 17:38.22 | Bill | hmh.. no service with ms3 |
| 17:39.06 | *** join/#openmoko malik1972 (n=malik197@85.182.50.245) |
| 17:39.30 | Gnutoo | I've got wifi...i can ping the encrypted router...but i can't add a default route...strange....and i can ssh from the wifi to my phone...the cable is disconnected... |
| 17:41.08 | *** join/#openmoko Morge (n=mt@81-229-83-211-no65.business.telia.com) |
| 17:41.36 | Gnutoo | ah...this time i think it's working...i've not anymore the resolving message |
| 17:42.38 | *** join/#openmoko baze_ (n=baze@g230228156.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
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| 17:54.36 | diego__ | tangogps on fso ms3 need gllin for neo1973? |
| 17:54.52 | mickey|ICE971 | sure |
| 17:55.11 | *** join/#openmoko fish_ (n=fish@freigeist.org) |
| 17:56.42 | diego__ | and i have to configure gypsy for using /tmp/nmea? |
| 17:57.14 | *** join/#openmoko jave` (n=user@84-216-36-63.sprayadsl.telenor.se) |
| 17:57.14 | mickey|ICE971 | IIRC it's getting start automagically |
| 17:57.15 | mickey|ICE971 | rwhitby: ? |
| 17:57.17 | *** join/#openmoko flat (n=bkaplan@c-98-210-154-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 17:57.53 | diego__ | couse i've downloaded the last image, but i'vent find gllin on iy |
| 17:57.56 | diego__ | *it |
| 17:58.55 | mickey|ICE971 | yep, that's expected |
| 17:59.01 | mickey|ICE971 | you need to download gllin seperately |
| 17:59.07 | mickey|ICE971 | click-through license |
| 18:00.03 | diego__ | ok, thx |
| 18:00.22 | diego__ | i put my neo outside my window now ^^ |
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| 18:01.43 | *** join/#openmoko thomasgruebler (n=thomasgr@85-124-167-249.work.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 18:06.04 | *** join/#openmoko XVirus (n=Satan@41.196.216.237) |
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| 18:09.42 | Dave | grawr |
| 18:09.44 | Dave | FSO |
| 18:09.47 | Dave | go go go |
| 18:10.34 | mickey|ICE971 | a kingdom for someone who yanks sysinit |
| 18:11.02 | *** join/#openmoko tanner (n=marc@16-88.76-83.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 18:13.24 | Bill | okay.. ms3 is weird.. |
| 18:13.57 | *** join/#openmoko Centaur5 (n=fishman@209-33-197-88.dsl.infowest.net) |
| 18:16.11 | Dave | Weird? :p |
| 18:16.23 | Bill | as in.. gsm stack |
| 18:16.31 | Dave | o_O |
| 18:16.33 | Dave | bananas? |
| 18:16.41 | Dave | What, it's not working for you? |
| 18:16.49 | Dave | Furthermore, it's changed? o_O |
| 18:17.17 | Bill | 2s ttst call went fine |
| 18:17.18 | Bill | test |
| 18:17.59 | Bill | 3rd started out.. and then came aweful screech and after that i can't make any calls |
| 18:18.22 | *** join/#openmoko CVirus (n=Satan@41.196.153.8) |
| 18:18.29 | Bill | and the gsm network registration takes for ages |
| 18:18.43 | mickey|ICE971 | appreciating logs |
| 18:18.49 | Bill | and it doesn't have decent PIM database backend |
| 18:18.54 | mickey|ICE971 | gsm network registration is slow... that's the calypso |
| 18:19.07 | Bill | mickey|ICE971: can you point me to some log path? |
| 18:19.23 | mickey|ICE971 | no, you need to enalbe the logs first |
| 18:19.27 | mickey|ICE971 | see my announcement posting |
| 18:19.29 | mickey|ICE971 | last section |
| 18:19.33 | Bill | sec |
| 18:19.58 | mickey|ICE971 | you can also chose debug levels and destinations on the fly (see mdbus wiki page) |
| 18:20.55 | tanner | hi, is libsdl not in the Om2008.8 feed? opkg doesn't seem to find it. |
| 18:20.56 | Bill | can i set the destination staticli to /var/log/zhone or smthng? |
| 18:21.31 | mickey|ICE971 | destination atm. only via dbus |
| 18:21.39 | mickey|ICE971 | or you can edit the start script |
| 18:21.46 | Bill | uhh.. okay |
| 18:21.47 | mickey|ICE971 | and pipe output into a file |
| 18:21.50 | Bill | rgr |
| 18:22.00 | mickey|ICE971 | most important is log_level = DEBUG though |
| 18:22.14 | Bill | and the stratup script is... ? |
| 18:22.25 | *** join/#openmoko noother (n=noother@unaffiliated/noother) |
| 18:22.37 | mickey|ICE971 | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:22.52 | Bill | okay.. |
| 18:23.01 | Bill | let's get some logs then |
| 18:23.07 | mickey|ICE971 | good |
| 18:24.21 | noother | Hey, how can I tell qpe to scan only /media/card/data/ on startup? I've thousands of open-street-maps pngs on it and it takes ages to scan at every boot :/ |
| 18:25.14 | *** join/#openmoko ccube (n=ccube@ssh.ccube.de) |
| 18:26.24 | noother | I've tried to set the path for the card in /opt/Qtopia/etc/default/Trolltech/Storage.conf to /media/card/data, but it scans nothing then |
| 18:26.26 | *** join/#openmoko DieMumiee (n=DieMumie@W0f27.w.pppool.de) |
| 18:26.29 | *** join/#openmoko baba_melone (n=baba_mel@p4FD7DFC8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:27.42 | baba_melone | Hi, I have routing problem caused by the fact that I cant reach my Neo Freerunner at another ip than 192.168.0.202, I cannot change the ip, not temporarily not in the /etc/network/interfaces file wihtout loosing ssh access |
| 18:27.58 | baba_melone | I can still ping, but not use ssh |
| 18:28.34 | mickey|ICE971 | distro? |
| 18:28.52 | baba_melone | Om2008.8 |
| 18:29.02 | baba_melone | Kernel IP routing table |
| 18:29.03 | baba_melone | Destination Gateway Genmask Flags Metric Ref Use Iface |
| 18:29.03 | baba_melone | 192.168.0.1 * 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0 eth0 |
| 18:29.03 | baba_melone | 192.168.0.0 * 255.255.255.0 U 0 0 0 usb0 |
| 18:29.03 | baba_melone | 192.168.0.0 * 255.255.255.0 U 0 0 0 eth0 |
| 18:29.03 | baba_melone | default 192.168.0.1 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 eth0 |
| 18:29.09 | baba_melone | these are my current route |
| 18:29.10 | baba_melone | s |
| 18:29.14 | mickey|ICE971 | i think that's by default |
| 18:29.23 | baba_melone | yeah |
| 18:29.30 | baba_melone | but my wlan is in the same subnet |
| 18:29.49 | baba_melone | which is quite annoying as I get routing probs then |
| 18:29.50 | mickey|ICE971 | check dropbear config |
| 18:29.52 | mickey|ICE971 | perhaps it's compiled in, dunno |
| 18:30.01 | baba_melone | although it works now, but very slow |
| 18:30.08 | baba_melone | takes 200 ms to ping my router |
| 18:30.14 | baba_melone | (via wlan) |
| 18:32.11 | *** join/#openmoko jopk (n=chatzill@p5B1663F1.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:33.27 | mwester | Ok, calypso problem: same with all combinations of FSO-3 and 2008.8 and Qtopia images, GTA01 and GTA02, AT&T and T-mobile SIMS: The calypso registers, then reports a disconnect 30 secs (+/- 2 seconds) later, re-registers in 3 secs (+/- 1 second) -- cycle repeats for inifinity. |
| 18:34.02 | mwester | Anyone else see similar issues, or is this some quirk of geography? (too much nickel in the gravel beneath my home?) |
| 18:34.20 | Bill | mwester: not that periodically |
| 18:34.31 | Bill | but yes.. i've seen reregs quite often |
| 18:35.42 | TAsnn | is fso also using the boots flash boot screen? |
| 18:36.01 | mwester | It's like clockwork here -- I spent this morning crunching log files, and have a full page of timings written down. It's seems reasonable that there's something not in sync here; some setting that I suspect can be tweaked -- maybe the cell towers here don't broadcast as often as the calypso expects to see a beacon or something? |
| 18:36.06 | TAsnn | btw, im running in qemu, is it possible to use gta02 images with gat01 qemu? |
| 18:36.08 | baba_melone | Id just need to delete the routes to the subnet as i dont need them |
| 18:36.17 | baba_melone | but then im getting an error from route |
| 18:36.17 | XorA | mwester: #1024 |
| 18:36.27 | baba_melone | route delete 192.168.0.0 dev eth0 |
| 18:36.27 | baba_melone | route: SIOCDELRT: No such process |
| 18:36.34 | baba_melone | which I dont understand |
| 18:36.47 | baba_melone | why cant I just delete those conflicting routes |
| 18:36.53 | mwester | XorA: Thanks. Nice number for a ticket, too. |
| 18:37.10 | *** join/#openmoko milos_ (n=milos@92.36.161.12) |
| 18:37.24 | XorA | mwester: phone + sim combo I had that did it went back to .tw, on a different phone same SIM it didnt happen |
| 18:38.02 | mwester | That's depressing reading... :( |
| 18:38.12 | XorA | mwester: mickeyl has a collection of phones that do it :-( |
| 18:38.34 | mwester | I have two GTA01's and a GTA02 that do it, with two different SIMS from two different carriers. :( |
| 18:39.02 | XorA | thats a first report of a GTA01 doing it |
| 18:39.03 | darkjames | baba_melone, route delete -net 192.168.0.0/24 eth0 ? |
| 18:39.34 | awwaiid | baba_melone, I think that means that the route you're asking to delete isn't there. type-o? |
| 18:39.58 | *** join/#openmoko mickey|ICE971 (n=mickey@92.116.251.243) |
| 18:40.07 | XorA | mwester: oh no, some of mickeys are gta01 devices |
| 18:40.09 | awwaiid | or perhaps, ala darkjames, you have to be more specific (include netmask) |
| 18:40.15 | XorA | and mentioning mickey|ICE971 :-D |
| 18:40.47 | *** join/#openmoko mazzen (n=mortel@vpn-ce242012.extern.uni-duisburg-essen.de) |
| 18:41.00 | mickey|ICE971 | ? |
| 18:41.10 | XorA | mickey|ICE971: mwester has another 3 #1024 failures |
| 18:41.10 | mwester | Doesn't look hopeful that it'll be fixed, after all this time. There's also been no dialog/discussion on the MLs that would indicate that anyone is still working with the GSM firmware anymore. |
| 18:41.17 | darkjames | baba_melone, however i think it not what you want to do. |
| 18:41.50 | Bill | anyway.. seems like somethings broken on mine |
| 18:42.18 | Bill | framework won't get connection to modem anymore.. |
| 18:42.40 | Bill | retrys in a 2 sec loop |
| 18:43.17 | mickey|ICE971 | mwester: yep. #1024 seems to be the major showstopper for some people and at this point of time i don't see any solution |
| 18:43.52 | mickey|ICE971 | (apart from |
| 18:43.57 | mickey|ICE971 | #666, which is another killer bug for some people) |
| 18:44.02 | malik1972 | mwester: can you help out concerning alarm entries, i got one which wakes up my neo at 18:30 and boots it, there is an entry /proc/devices/rtc where i can see it |
| 18:44.55 | mwester | wonders if there is any correlation of killer bugs and significance of bug numbers. |
| 18:45.09 | malik1972 | i thought the same |
| 18:45.13 | Gnutoo | hello, how do I enter a 0033/+33 number in zhone? because i enter the name, it's fine,then i enter this number and it become unresponsive trough the UI(not ssh) and exit without adding the number in the phonebook |
| 18:45.15 | mickey|ICE971 | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:45.18 | malik1972 | 2^10 |
| 18:45.30 | malik1972 | and the magic 666 |
| 18:45.52 | malik1972 | and someone who wants to enter alot of 3's |
| 18:46.08 | *** join/#openmoko swc|666 (n=swc|666@c66-235-36-76.sea2.cablespeed.com) |
| 18:46.27 | malik1972 | anyone with some knowledge on atd? |
| 18:46.40 | jave` | .. and I cant start a phonenumber with plain 0 just 00 |
| 18:47.35 | lloyd_fedora1 | anywhere i can download updated OM2007.2 images .. openmoko links r dead |
| 18:47.57 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@bas2-hamilton14-1167919346.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 18:48.22 | *** join/#openmoko alfatangoxt (n=michele@82.49.161.216) |
| 18:49.02 | baba_melone | darkjames: sry, have been afk |
| 18:49.17 | baba_melone | of course I have tried what youve told me to |
| 18:49.40 | baba_melone | no it doesnt work, I get this error no matter how many arguments I bypass |
| 18:51.41 | darkjames | baba_melone, -net and netmask is important. |
| 18:52.25 | Bill | and in zhone dialer single digit is never shown... |
| 18:52.48 | darkjames | s/is/are/ |
| 18:53.05 | baba_melone | hm yeah, no I managed to delete the routes |
| 18:53.28 | baba_melone | but pinging the wlan router still causes an immense latency |
| 18:53.40 | baba_melone | root@om-gta02:~# ping 192.168.0.1 |
| 18:53.40 | baba_melone | PING 192.168.0.1 (192.168.0.1): 56 data bytes |
| 18:53.40 | baba_melone | 64 bytes from 192.168.0.1: seq=0 ttl=254 time=89.895 ms |
| 18:53.40 | baba_melone | 64 bytes from 192.168.0.1: seq=1 ttl=254 time=184.984 ms |
| 18:53.41 | baba_melone | 64 bytes from 192.168.0.1: seq=2 ttl=254 time=613.562 ms |
| 18:53.41 | baba_melone | 64 bytes from 192.168.0.1: seq=3 ttl=254 time=12.378 ms |
| 18:53.43 | baba_melone | 64 bytes from 192.168.0.1: seq=4 ttl=254 time=191.425 ms |
| 18:53.45 | baba_melone | 64 bytes from 192.168.0.1: seq=5 ttl=254 time=290.276 ms |
| 18:53.47 | baba_melone | thats too much |
| 18:54.13 | baba_melone | root@om-gta02:~# route |
| 18:54.14 | baba_melone | Kernel IP routing table |
| 18:54.14 | baba_melone | Destination Gateway Genmask Flags Metric Ref Use Iface |
| 18:54.14 | baba_melone | 192.168.0.1 * 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0 eth0 |
| 18:54.14 | baba_melone | 192.168.0.0 * 255.255.255.0 U 0 0 0 eth0 |
| 18:54.14 | baba_melone | default 192.168.0.1 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 eth0 |
| 18:54.20 | baba_melone | now my routes look like this |
| 18:54.27 | jaj | baba_melone: I think the wireless driver is quite buggy |
| 18:54.38 | baba_melone | Ive noticed that too |
| 18:54.46 | diego__ | you should use pastebin |
| 18:54.46 | jaj | there's also the issue where you can only connect once |
| 18:54.58 | *** join/#openmoko retracile__ (n=eli@76-204-213-211.lightspeed.allntx.sbcglobal.net) |
| 18:54.59 | jaj | even though I think that's fixed now |
| 18:55.01 | baba_melone | It got me a rate of 65,535 M several times |
| 18:55.16 | baba_melone | jaj: yeah, that works |
| 18:55.23 | diego__ | baba_melone, or you should be ignored by a lot of people |
| 18:55.31 | *** join/#openmoko tkep (n=travisk@nat/redhat/x-807e9723f3671c58) |
| 18:55.46 | baba_melone | its really the latency that frightens me |
| 18:55.58 | baba_melone | but the routes are okay now, arent they? |
| 18:56.11 | jaj | did atheros actually release the full hardware documentation for the chip? |
| 18:57.00 | balrog-k1n | i don't think the did or ever will |
| 18:57.08 | jaj | bastards |
| 18:57.38 | jaj | an openmoko dev told me last summer that they said they would release it |
| 18:58.00 | *** join/#openmoko Zilla (n=Zilla@cc479555-b.hnglo1.ov.home.nl) |
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| 19:01.38 | slaxxin | www.pastebin.com |
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| 19:04.48 | *** join/#openmoko blan (n=blan@dslb-092-075-246-184.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 19:05.15 | Dave | bogomoko |
| 19:06.25 | Dave | So, what's the story? 2008.8 and FSO3 mutually blow? Wait, we already knew this :) |
| 19:06.27 | *** join/#openmoko LetoTo1 (n=paul@76-10-173-74.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 19:06.50 | Dave | Sadly enough. |
| 19:07.01 | Dave | frowns in mwester's direction. |
| 19:07.02 | TAsnn | if i want to make moko apps can i use the toolchain to build to 2007 2008 and fso? |
| 19:07.08 | slaxxin | fat an dirty is next |
| 19:07.15 | TAsnn | or do i need different toolchains? |
| 19:07.17 | Dave | oh great -_- |
| 19:07.22 | Dave | it'll be like fedora on the phone |
| 19:07.24 | Dave | :D |
| 19:07.36 | slaxxin | think? |
| 19:07.56 | slaxxin | that s not good |
| 19:07.59 | *** join/#openmoko hanez (n=hanez@c161054.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 19:08.05 | slaxxin | i no like fedora |
| 19:08.57 | *** join/#openmoko t_s_o (n=tso@254.84-49-136.nextgentel.com) |
| 19:08.57 | slaxxin | fso3 was not impressive |
| 19:09.00 | Dave | Well we don't like you :p |
| 19:09.10 | jaj | is it possible to install gtk (and gtk apps by that same means) on the qtopia distrib? |
| 19:09.11 | slaxxin | but they are gaining i think |
| 19:09.22 | *** join/#openmoko psymin (n=psymin@smtpstatic.blackfoot.net) |
| 19:09.31 | slaxxin | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:09.33 | Dave | jaj, I don't see how |
| 19:10.08 | slaxxin | but somebodys got to crack that whip |
| 19:10.08 | mickey|ICE971 | all those reactions about UI make me sick |
| 19:10.20 | mickey|ICE971 | it looks i'm going to release forthcoming versions as command line images |
| 19:10.23 | *** join/#openmoko Torikun (n=rusher@gateway.penguincomputing.com) |
| 19:10.26 | mickey|ICE971 | perhaps then people get the point |
| 19:10.32 | mickey|ICE971 | *shrug* |
| 19:10.48 | *** part/#openmoko Torikun (n=rusher@gateway.penguincomputing.com) |
| 19:11.17 | Dave | :D |
| 19:11.32 | slaxxin | i know this is a dev phone device im not trying to disscount anyones hours of work i just say what i see |
| 19:11.33 | Dave | puts on his Indiana Jones style hat, and grabs a whip |
| 19:11.43 | mickey|ICE971 | really, it's amazing, i get 0% comment on the dbus APIs |
| 19:11.54 | mickey|ICE971 | that's not good. people missing out their chance |
| 19:12.02 | Dave | dbus - heh |
| 19:12.23 | ronny | mickey|ICE971: sorry, atm i just lack time due to exams/projects |
| 19:12.30 | slaxxin | i use all the images i can find |
| 19:12.33 | lindi- | mickey|ICE971: do you know how i could see return values of dbus calls with dbus-monitor? |
| 19:12.58 | mickey|ICE971 | --print-return |
| 19:13.01 | mickey|ICE971 | or so |
| 19:13.03 | mickey|ICE971 | but i'd advise using mdbus |
| 19:13.10 | mickey|ICE971 | ah, no, dbus-monitor |
| 19:13.28 | mickey|ICE971 | no idea on that, (thought dbus-send) |
| 19:15.15 | *** join/#openmoko lambda (n=seb@33.15.195-77.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 19:17.55 | Dave | D-block! o/ |
| 19:18.29 | Dave | Chocky |
| 19:19.28 | lindi- | mickey|ICE971: dbus-monitor yes |
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| 19:23.52 | psymin | in the past I got the impression that people preferred using a stylus with the neo freerunner with openmoko, is that still the case? |
| 19:25.06 | mickey|ICE971 | not me, all UI software I'm writing these days (not that it would be a lot) has big fingersize buttons |
| 19:26.46 | Bill | psymin: everyday use should still be with fingers |
| 19:26.51 | Bill | at least for me |
| 19:27.06 | Bill | stylus is nice for terminal and stuff |
| 19:27.13 | psymin | cool |
| 19:27.56 | jaj | hmm, I mostly use the terminal so yeah, the stylus is cool :) |
| 19:28.42 | psymin | this is probably a common question but I didn't see it in the FAQ, when can the world hope to see 'consumer' versions? |
| 19:29.29 | *** join/#openmoko Boris_W (n=chatzill@S0106000f665a5c2a.vc.shawcable.net) |
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| 19:30.54 | Boris_W | i'm having troubles. i've been trying to flash my freerunner using the online guides, in windows, using dfu-util. i've been trying to flash different things, but the upload only goes on a little bit or none at all, and it would result in a dfu_download error -5... could anybody help? |
| 19:31.14 | *** join/#openmoko dougt (n=dougt@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) |
| 19:31.37 | slaxxin | im a consumer an im happy with what i got especially being i can put whatever i want on it an the choices are getting much much better than when i recieved the freerunner |
| 19:34.17 | mickey|ICE971 | don't quote me on that, but I think no matter what marketing wants to tell you, consumer ready software is not the priority atm. |
| 19:34.26 | mickey|ICE971 | atm. it's still diversity mode |
| 19:34.31 | *** join/#openmoko norro (n=norro@e181112197.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 19:34.43 | slaxxin | yea an it is working |
| 19:34.43 | mickey|ICE971 | i.e. showing broad what's possible with a free device like that |
| 19:34.45 | psymin | cool, could I use the phone for calls and sms .. reliably? |
| 19:35.07 | mickey|ICE971 | reliability is relative |
| 19:35.13 | psymin | hehe |
| 19:35.14 | mickey|ICE971 | fso seems to be stable enough for lots of people, qtopia as well |
| 19:35.23 | *** join/#openmoko malik1972 (n=malik197@85.182.50.245) |
| 19:35.34 | Bill | qtopia is relatively stable.. |
| 19:35.42 | slaxxin | on at&t ive never had an sms either way |
| 19:35.42 | psymin | I've got an iPhone currently .. (work phone) .. and I'm thinking of getting a freerunner for personal use |
| 19:35.52 | psymin | <3 SMS |
| 19:35.55 | psymin | mandatory |
| 19:36.15 | jaj | sms is the most expensive communication medium in existance |
| 19:36.16 | mickey|ICE971 | *nod* |
| 19:36.20 | mickey|ICE971 | good combination |
| 19:36.22 | mickey|ICE971 | :D |
| 19:36.32 | slaxxin | with 2008.9 i get sms an send |
| 19:37.42 | psymin | Ahh, so it sounds like SMS is still bleeding edge for openmoko on a freerunner? |
| 19:39.13 | mjr | well |
| 19:39.37 | mjr | it at least mostly works for me on the default 2007.2 image... |
| 19:39.50 | mjr | or whatever the number was |
| 19:40.22 | psymin | Why was the name changed from neo1973 ? |
| 19:42.01 | tkep | is there a quick way to make the mic louder? everyone has been complaining about how quiet i am |
| 19:42.06 | mjr | probably because it's a different device |
| 19:43.16 | *** join/#openmoko juc1 (n=jucs@p57AE6CE0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:43.19 | juc1 | Hey ;-) |
| 19:44.16 | Boris_W | solved my own problem.. when flashing firmware... never use a USB extension cord... |
| 19:45.11 | juc1 | :-D |
| 19:46.34 | Boris_W | why was it called 1973? reference to the year? |
| 19:48.01 | Bill | the inventor of the mobile phone, Martin Cooper, made the first call in 1973 |
| 19:49.04 | Boris_W | classy.. makes me like openmoko even more XD |
| 19:49.27 | psymin | neat |
| 19:49.29 | jaj | the next one will be called 1984 |
| 19:49.35 | *** join/#openmoko hanez (n=hanez@c161054.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 19:49.48 | jaj | the year that changed mobile communication |
| 19:51.51 | baze_ | but 1984 would have to come with a camera ;) |
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| 19:54.10 | psymin | and multitouch :) |
| 19:54.16 | MichaelShiloh | heya |
| 19:54.54 | *** join/#openmoko neldoreth (n=ascot@unixboard/users/neldoreth) |
| 19:55.18 | jaj | yeah 1984 would definitely need a camera! :) |
| 19:56.08 | *** join/#openmoko MHazem (n=Satan@41.196.132.136) |
| 19:58.29 | Zilla | btw is there a wikipage about 1984 (phone) |
| 19:59.08 | Centaur5 | FSO 3 doesn't have python-pygtk in their default feeds. Anyone know if there are some safe feeds I can add? |
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| 20:01.30 | mmp | Hello; I'm just playing a bit with FDOM image; is it usual that the SMSesare unreadable? |
| 20:02.32 | mmp | (e.g. just gibberish characters instead of normal text |
| 20:06.07 | *** join/#openmoko emilis_info (n=emilis@clt-84-32-58-67.vdnet.lt) |
| 20:06.20 | Dave | fso fso fso |
| 20:06.34 | Dave | everyone applaud mickey on the great dbus work :P |
| 20:06.46 | Dave | it's so good, don't you all want to interface with it ;p |
| 20:09.37 | mmp | Dave: is there any image which uses FSO? (instead of FSO image itself, which doesn't seem to be recommended for use) |
| 20:12.10 | Dave | why not? |
| 20:12.45 | *** join/#openmoko slaxxin (n=brian@ip70-178-27-23.ks.ks.cox.net) |
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| 20:42.01 | Gnutoo | hello, i want games on my freerunner...on FSO_III...so where could i find the openembedded source of the milestone III so i can compile wesnoth and others games....by the way is there all deps of duke nukem 3d on the milestone III? |
| 20:42.29 | Gnutoo | for wesnoth I need: * libsdl-net-1.2-0 (>= 1.2.7) * libboost-iostreams1.33.1 (>= 1.33.1) * |
| 20:42.42 | *** join/#openmoko dougt (n=dougt@guest-225.mountainview.mozilla.com) |
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| 20:44.41 | edistar | Gnutoo: OE source? |
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| 20:44.59 | Gnutoo | edistar, ywa |
| 20:45.02 | Gnutoo | edistar, yes |
| 20:45.20 | Gnutoo | edistar, where does the oe tree of FSO_III lives? |
| 20:45.21 | edistar | Gnutoo: it's based on angstrom |
| 20:45.34 | Gnutoo | edistar, i know but the build system is openembedded... |
| 20:45.34 | edistar | Gnutoo: check git.freesmartphone.org |
| 20:45.41 | Gnutoo | edistar, thanks |
| 20:45.48 | edistar | it should all be in openembedded.dev |
| 20:46.39 | Gnutoo | edistar, the problem is that I want to build against the stable FSO_III not a live target... |
| 20:47.11 | *** join/#openmoko dracozna (i=thomas@cc408686-b.leek1.gr.home.nl) |
| 20:47.15 | edistar | Gnutoo: then you need to set the right rev |
| 20:47.22 | *** join/#openmoko unlotto (n=unlotto@ip114.rev112.brygge.net) |
| 20:48.06 | Gnutoo | edistar, ah ok...but how to find it...grepping the OE.mtn file...but for what? |
| 20:48.37 | edistar | best to ask mickey|zzZZzz |
| 20:48.46 | edistar | he'll be home soon |
| 20:48.52 | Gnutoo | edistar, ok thanks |
| 20:50.55 | Gnutoo | ah...i've found a Makefile in the git of freesmartphone.org |
| 20:51.06 | Gnutoo | mabe i'll use it or use its informations... |
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| 21:10.29 | johnsu01 | hm, there are two packages claiming to satisfy dbus-1, and an error |
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| 21:17.09 | dgilmore | i have a neo1973. and i cant get it to stay on. im guessing the battery is shot. is that likely? |
| 21:18.32 | *** join/#openmoko fuzzdk (n=fuzzdk@1503032171.dhcp.dbnet.dk) |
| 21:18.56 | *** join/#openmoko zouzou (n=zouzou@unaffiliated/zouzou) |
| 21:19.15 | zouzou | hi all |
| 21:19.40 | zouzou | is there a guide on how to run OM2008, in a virtual environment |
| 21:23.24 | wurp2|working | zouzou: Just use the standard guide on qemu, and burn a 2008.8 image? |
| 21:25.48 | igor321 | hello! did anyone try andy's "fix-glamo-turbo-host-interface.patch" ? |
| 21:26.01 | igor321 | it claims 60% performance increase |
| 21:26.09 | wurp2|working | on what? |
| 21:26.23 | igor321 | on your freerunner |
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| 21:26.31 | *** part/#openmoko rooly (n=rooly@host-125-92.lalacap.clients.pavlovmedia.com) |
| 21:26.37 | wurp2|working | 60% performance increase to everything? |
| 21:26.43 | igor321 | to the glamo thing |
| 21:26.57 | viq | 60% e-penis enlargement! |
| 21:27.08 | igor321 | damn you viq |
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| 21:27.17 | *** part/#openmoko rooly (n=rooly@host-125-92.lalacap.clients.pavlovmedia.com) |
| 21:27.32 | wurp2|working | my e-penis isn't nearly big enough |
| 21:27.32 | igor321 | so noone did test it? |
| 21:27.35 | wurp2|working | I'll take two |
| 21:27.51 | edistar | igor321: 60% increase? |
| 21:28.01 | edistar | igor321: url or it didn't happen |
| 21:28.07 | igor321 | one sec |
| 21:28.09 | ronny | sorry, my pants cant take 60% increase |
| 21:28.17 | edistar | it's like spasm! |
| 21:28.18 | edistar | *spam |
| 21:28.18 | *** join/#openmoko dolf1074 (n=chatzill@78-20-190-236.access.telenet.be) |
| 21:28.29 | viq | ronny: they'll get 60% icrease too ;) |
| 21:28.35 | igor321 | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/commitlog/2008-July/005618.html |
| 21:28.47 | ronny | viq: then i will loose them |
| 21:28.47 | igor321 | " In addition, until now we used PLL1 (50MHz) for host bus clock. |
| 21:28.47 | igor321 | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:28.47 | igor321 | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:28.53 | igor321 | it's not in stable yet |
| 21:29.31 | dolf1074 | nice |
| 21:29.52 | igor321 | i sure hope so |
| 21:30.02 | igor321 | i wish i had a gta02 so i could test it |
| 21:30.03 | cjb | I wonder if you need a high-speed card for that |
| 21:30.10 | cjb | hm, host bus clock |
| 21:30.20 | cjb | wait, they're talking about Glamo in general? |
| 21:30.32 | cjb | wow. that's kinda ridiculous. |
| 21:30.36 | edistar | igor321: andy kernel is broken atm |
| 21:30.47 | edistar | cjb: yes, glamo |
| 21:30.55 | cjb | not to everything, glamo isn't the CPU or anything. |
| 21:31.08 | cjb | and it might already be fast enough for the NAND |
| 21:31.14 | igor321 | and another glamo patch is in stable since yesterday |
| 21:31.26 | edistar | cjb: btw, glamo is slowing down the cpu |
| 21:31.29 | dolf1074 | but it is the glamo that's blocking the cpu? |
| 21:31.29 | igor321 | also a performance booster, but not as much |
| 21:31.36 | edistar | cjb: so glamo increase means overall increase |
| 21:31.41 | cjb | edistar: when we wait for graphics requests to complete, I guess? |
| 21:31.46 | edistar | cjb: yes |
| 21:31.48 | Kensan | edistar: what's the breakage in andy's branch? |
| 21:32.01 | cjb | okay, so it means performance isn't improved when you aren't waiting for graphics requests to complete. |
| 21:32.03 | edistar | Kensan: don't know exactly, mickeyl just said so |
| 21:32.11 | cjb | I agree it sounds good. Let's not call it "everything". |
| 21:32.12 | Kensan | edistar: ok thanks for the heads up. |
| 21:32.25 | *** join/#openmoko paroneayea (n=user@fsf/member/paroneayea) |
| 21:32.45 | edistar | duke nukem might even speed up :P |
| 21:32.50 | dolf1074 | sugg: It increases some things :) |
| 21:32.52 | Kensan | cjb: I thought the microSD controller was connected to the rest via the glamo. |
| 21:33.10 | *** join/#openmoko everslick (n=clemens@212-183-113-228.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 21:33.10 | igor321 | fukk yeah, a 12% and 60% raw improvement patches, that is a lottt |
| 21:33.16 | cjb | Kensan: it is |
| 21:33.27 | mjr | Well. The glamo _is_ the microsd controller. |
| 21:33.41 | Kensan | cjb: so IO will improve too. |
| 21:33.49 | *** join/#openmoko Smythe (n=zamboni@206-248-130-231.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 21:34.05 | edistar | hooray! |
| 21:34.09 | Smythe | hey |
| 21:34.11 | edistar | let's have a party |
| 21:34.15 | Smythe | tada! |
| 21:34.16 | igor321 | so i googled it, and some dude seems to have tested it |
| 21:34.17 | cjb | assuming it wasn't already being serviced as fast as possible by the old glamo clock speed, yeah. |
| 21:34.17 | dolf1074 | your house? |
| 21:34.28 | Smythe | in the street |
| 21:34.32 | igor321 | he says its faster for him but no suspend & resume |
| 21:34.34 | igor321 | hehe |
| 21:34.48 | Smythe | so when will openmoko feature quadband? |
| 21:35.04 | edistar | Smythe: in 2 years maybe |
| 21:35.08 | Smythe | drag |
| 21:35.21 | Smythe | by then w-cdma will be defacto |
| 21:35.24 | dolf1074 | igor321: can you give a link? |
| 21:35.34 | Kensan | Smythe: quadband is of no use, if there's no software to provide all the basic functionality :) |
| 21:35.43 | Kensan | Smythe: and that can be done with the current hardware. |
| 21:35.44 | edistar | Kensan: muxer is there |
| 21:35.55 | igor321 | http://lists.openmoko.org/nabble.html#nabble-td834430 |
| 21:36.10 | Kensan | edistar: I was thinking about "user-space" apps. |
| 21:36.19 | Kensan | edistar: e.g. a fancy dialer etc :) |
| 21:36.21 | edistar | Kensan: ah, of course |
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| 21:39.15 | *** join/#openmoko self (n=self@pD957B1B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 21:39.30 | Boris_W | my freerunner makes weird noises after i turn it off =/ |
| 21:40.25 | edistar | off? |
| 21:40.45 | Boris_W | after shutting down from qtopia the speakers starts making scratch noises |
| 21:40.52 | Smythe | Kensan, so you mean the current drivers on linux do not do quadband? |
| 21:41.45 | edistar | Smythe: the chip isn't quad |
| 21:41.55 | edistar | Smythe: so how could the firmware do quad? |
| 21:42.05 | edistar | Smythe: but the muxer should be able to do it |
| 21:42.06 | mjr | Smythe, he means the current software doesn't do calls and sms very well |
| 21:42.15 | Smythe | so its either 850/18/19 or 900/18/19? |
| 21:42.31 | self | what does "dfu_upload error -84" mean after backing up the root fs via dfu_util? |
| 21:43.07 | mjr | Smythe, correct. Reportedly GTA03 will try to be quad. Whenever that comes along. |
| 21:43.08 | edistar | self: that it didn't work.. afaik backing up doesn't work yet |
| 21:43.29 | Kensan | Smythe: if the GSM chip would support quad band it could be used by the software stack. |
| 21:43.57 | Smythe | so can I toggle the firmware to behave either 850 or 900? via a flash? |
| 21:44.20 | Smythe | if thats all it is.... |
| 21:44.23 | Smythe | ?? |
| 21:44.31 | edistar | yes |
| 21:44.35 | Smythe | ie wow! |
| 21:44.54 | Smythe | so I dont give a rats a** about quadband then |
| 21:45.04 | self | edistar: mh, okay ;-/ |
| 21:45.19 | mjr | Smythe, no. You can't. |
| 21:45.23 | Kensan | Smythe: I don't know if you can actually do that or if you would need a different firmware for the gsm chip. |
| 21:45.23 | mwester | Er, the phone firmware can handle all bands, the GSM itelf cannot be changed. |
| 21:45.37 | mwester | The GSM needs to be replaced. |
| 21:45.57 | Smythe | so the when I order an 850 I cant change it to a 900 the back to an 850? |
| 21:46.20 | *** join/#openmoko playya_ (n=playya@p579B8B91.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:46.28 | Smythe | and we as mere mortal hacker wannabees do not have jdec or whatever access to that firmware?> |
| 21:46.53 | mwester | (The Calypso is itself capable of either NA triband or Euro triband, but it requires different internal firmware, different RF components, and custom calibration to switch it --- i.e. only the factory can do it at time of manufacture |
| 21:46.54 | mwester | ) |
| 21:46.59 | Kensan | mwester: Instead of replacing GSM "one" could also replace the firmware I suppose? |
| 21:47.15 | Kensan | mwester: oh ok, so it's not only a firmware issue. |
| 21:47.20 | Smythe | this is what I want to know Im handy with a JTAG |
| 21:47.29 | mwester | Kensan: Nope, need to replace some RF components, and you would need to recalibrate the internals of the GSM itself. |
| 21:47.44 | mwester | Smythe: JTAG will work with the phone, but not the GSM. |
| 21:47.52 | Smythe | ahh so it really aint a WinModem then lol |
| 21:47.57 | Smythe | k |
| 21:48.07 | mwester | Not at all. It's totally closed and proprietary. |
| 21:48.17 | Kensan | mwester: ok thanks for the clarification. |
| 21:48.30 | mwester | Us mere mortals don't even have docs for the GSM, and in fact, OM themselves don't have the full set of documents!!!!!!!! |
| 21:48.49 | mwester | (Which is why we still have show-stopper bugs with the phone) |
| 21:49.06 | Smythe | mwester inneresting point |
| 21:49.24 | Smythe | so were all chomping at the bit somewhat? |
| 21:49.39 | Smythe | having fun no less |
| 21:49.54 | Smythe | the thing looks cool |
| 21:49.57 | mwester | The GTA03 will hopefully be better, I'm told that whatever dumpster they fished these garbage GSM chips out of is empty, and the GTA03 will have to have a different GSM -- maybe even one that works! ;) |
| 21:50.24 | Smythe | and mwester thats 2 years off or so? |
| 21:50.46 | mwester | Dunno; development of the hardware is still in the early prototyping stages. |
| 21:50.48 | *** join/#openmoko ccube (n=ccube@ssh.ccube.de) |
| 21:51.08 | Kensan | mwester: having a gsm which works (tm) would be a killer feature ;) |
| 21:51.15 | mwester | I'd say at least a year, but hopefully not more than that as it will not be appreciably different than the gta02 in most regards. |
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| 21:52.15 | Pyrasi | so i just installed the new fso image....does it suspend? |
| 21:52.44 | Smythe | ah well then I won't throw out my MoTo K1 anytime soon |
| 21:53.19 | mwester | Pyrasi: heh! I asked the same thing. Yes, but only manually, by pressing the button on the side for 2 secs (power button) |
| 21:53.45 | Smythe | but I'll be watching this space for further developments....cheerz folks! |
| 21:56.27 | Pyrasi | ohhh.....i actually rather like that |
| 21:56.35 | self | what about receiving calls while in suspend? |
| 21:57.38 | cjb | works |
| 21:58.20 | *** part/#openmoko Torikun (n=rusher@gateway.penguincomputing.com) |
| 21:58.26 | self | cjb: everytime? do you know if http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1945 appears there ? (sometimes, GSM seems to disconnect in suspend) |
| 21:58.41 | cjb | haven't tried it more than a couple of times |
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| 22:12.08 | Pyrasi | what is Htop? |
| 22:12.14 | *** join/#openmoko Torikun1 (n=rusher@gateway.penguincomputing.com) |
| 22:12.23 | zash | like top |
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| 22:12.59 | Pyrasi | hmmm....seems to error out when i try to run it |
| 22:13.02 | zash | Pyrasi: http://pix.zash.se/i/dI.png |
| 22:13.21 | Pyrasi | oic |
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| 22:51.40 | slaxxin | opkg upgrade will break FDOM - a Fat and Dirty OM based distribution |
| 22:51.49 | slaxxin | ? |
| 22:53.37 | Wonka | anyone here who knows a little about debian on freerunner? |
| 22:54.12 | Wonka | the screen is off and it doesn't reactivate on touch or any button press |
| 22:54.30 | Wonka | ssh via usb-networking works, so it's not shut down or suspended |
| 22:55.13 | lindi- | Wonka: ps axuf |
| 22:55.35 | balrog-k1n | Wonka: is X running? |
| 22:55.39 | *** join/#openmoko dent (i=[U2FsdGV@linux.fjfi.cvut.cz) |
| 22:55.55 | *** part/#openmoko lloyd_fedora (n=darkstar@de1-as10708.alshamil.net.ae) |
| 22:56.34 | Wonka | xinit, X, matchbox-window-manager and zhone are all there |
| 22:56.52 | lindi- | Wonka: full ps axuf would still help |
| 22:58.27 | Wonka | http://nopaste.ch/330a510172d8ebb.html |
| 22:58.28 | slaxxin | so i guess im upgradeing from FDOM to current |
| 22:59.19 | lindi- | Wonka: apmd and ssh-agent are probably extra btw |
| 22:59.31 | balrog-k1n | i don't know about debian but when i'm in the console with fso and the screensaver kicks in, the only way to get the backlight back is /etc/init.d/x-nodm start followed by /etc/init.d/x-nodm stop |
| 22:59.43 | lindi- | Wonka: "DISPLAY=:0 xev"? |
| 23:00.35 | Wonka | no xev |
| 23:01.02 | Wonka | but when i run htop (via ssh) and pat around on the screen, both frameworkd and zhone do consume cpu time |
| 23:01.39 | *** join/#openmoko djp_ (n=djp@76-10-153-9.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 23:02.56 | lindi- | Wonka: install xev :) |
| 23:03.02 | lindi- | Wonka: or use xev from your desktop |
| 23:03.24 | lindi- | Wonka: ok, it's probably because zhone is not asking frameworkd to turn the screen on |
| 23:03.25 | balrog-k1n | oh smart |
| 23:03.34 | lindi- | Wonka: can you dbus-monitor? |
| 23:04.46 | Wonka | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:04.46 | Wonka | debian-gta02:~# dbus-monitor |
| 23:04.46 | Wonka | Failed to open connection to session message bus: Failed to execute dbus-launch to autolaunch D-Bus session |
| 23:04.49 | Wonka | debian-gta02:~# dbus-launch dbus-monitor |
| 23:05.06 | lindi- | Wonka: you need more magic |
| 23:05.11 | Wonka | *search* |
| 23:05.22 | lindi- | Wonka: edit /etc/dbus-1/system-local.conf |
| 23:05.29 | lindi- | Wonka: add <!DOCTYPE busconfig PUBLIC "-//freedesktop//DTD D-BUS Bus Configuration 1.0//EN" "http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/dbus/1.0/busconfig.dtd"> <busconfig> <policy user="bin"> <allow eavesdrop="true"/> </policy> </busconfig> |
| 23:05.35 | lindi- | Wonka: then use su bin -c "dbus-monitor --system" |
| 23:05.55 | jonsmith1982 | is there a dhcp client on FSO Milestone III ? |
| 23:06.11 | lindi- | jonsmith1982: i'm sure you can install one? ;) |
| 23:06.31 | *** join/#openmoko ScarEye (n=scareye@12.27.87.66) |
| 23:06.52 | *** join/#openmoko Stroller (n=Stroller@213-152-39-89.dsl.eclipse.net.uk) |
| 23:07.03 | Wonka | lindi-: it starts now and doesn't complain |
| 23:07.31 | lindi- | Wonka: do you see anything when you touch the screen? |
| 23:07.56 | lindi- | Wonka: oh and you might need to restart dbus-daemon |
| 23:07.58 | Wonka | signal sender=:1.6 -> dest=(null destination) path=/org/freesmartphone/Device/IdleNotifier/0; interface=org.freesmartphone.Device.IdleNotifier; member=State |
| 23:08.01 | Wonka | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:08.32 | Wonka | after that, strings IDLE IDLE_DIM IDLE_PRELOCK IDLE_PRELOCK SUSPEND |
| 23:08.53 | lindi- | ok, let me think :) |
| 23:10.33 | lindi- | Wonka: ok, so that's fso-frameworkd telling everyone that the system is not idle anymore |
| 23:10.52 | lindi- | Wonka: fso-frameworkd listens on /dev/input/event* and sees when you use touchscreen |
| 23:10.54 | *** join/#openmoko t0h (i=tommi@dsl-kvlbrasgw2-fe0cdf00-1.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 23:11.01 | lindi- | Wonka: now for some reason zhone is not reacting to that |
| 23:11.25 | lindi- | Wonka: anything in /tmp/zhone.log? |
| 23:12.33 | Wonka | lindi-: the last lines are about INFO IDLE STATE |
| 23:12.49 | lindi- | Wonka: and do they update? |
| 23:12.59 | lindi- | when you e.g. "tail -f /tmp/zhone.log" |
| 23:13.59 | Wonka | no... |
| 23:14.16 | Wonka | it's 01:13 here, and the last line is: |
| 23:14.17 | Wonka | 2008-09-12 20:28:24,604 INFO IDLE STATE = SUSPEND |
| 23:14.38 | lindi- | ok so zhone is "stuck" somewhere |
| 23:14.45 | Wonka | even if that timestamp was UTC, that would be 3 hours ago |
| 23:14.55 | lindi- | unfortunately i don't know a way to attach python debugger to an already running process |
| 23:14.57 | Wonka | so i'd try restarting X? |
| 23:15.03 | lindi- | Wonka: just restart zhone |
| 23:15.11 | lindi- | kill it and start again "DISPLAY=:0 zhone &" |
| 23:16.09 | *** join/#openmoko chomwitt (n=chomwitt@adsl99-97.ath.forthnet.gr) |
| 23:16.42 | Wonka | done. |
| 23:16.47 | Wonka | still no displa |
| 23:16.48 | Wonka | y |
| 23:16.55 | lindi- | ok, that's odd |
| 23:17.26 | lindi- | Wonka: is /tmp/zhone.log updating now? |
| 23:17.26 | Wonka | it's empty now |
| 23:17.32 | lindi- | it probably truncates it on startup |
| 23:17.45 | lindi- | Wonka: but nothing gets added there even though dbus-monitor shows idlenotifier events? |
| 23:18.01 | Wonka | correct |
| 23:18.11 | lindi- | hmm |
| 23:18.38 | Wonka | there have been tracebacks complaining about no SIM being present... |
| 23:18.40 | lindi- | i think python debugger is the way to go now |
| 23:18.46 | lindi- | Wonka: aha, that might be it |
| 23:18.53 | lindi- | Wonka: zhone just might not work without sim |
| 23:18.55 | Wonka | they are not there yet |
| 23:19.02 | Wonka | okaaay... |
| 23:19.17 | lindi- | at least i have never tested it without SIM |
| 23:19.18 | Wonka | so, could i get rid of zhone and instead install gpe? |
| 23:19.23 | lindi- | gpe? |
| 23:19.32 | Wonka | "g palmtop environment" |
| 23:19.50 | lindi- | never heard of that, is it in debian? |
| 23:19.54 | Wonka | it is |
| 23:20.16 | lindi- | Wonka: then sure, go ahead |
| 23:20.32 | lindi- | Wonka: but you need some small script to control display brightness i'm afraid :) |
| 23:20.58 | Wonka | could you tell me how to reactivate the display manually? |
| 23:21.05 | lindi- | looks |
| 23:21.18 | lindi- | self.display_iface.SetBrightness( 90 ) |
| 23:21.22 | swc|666 | Wonka: you can, but GPE is no good |
| 23:21.25 | lindi- | is what zhone does |
| 23:21.35 | swc|666 | <old> |
| 23:21.38 | lindi- | and it is self.display_iface = Interface( self.display_obj, "org.freesmartphone.Device.Display" ) |
| 23:21.41 | *** part/#openmoko zuzuzzzip (n=zuzuzzzi@madoka.isw.student.khleuven.be) |
| 23:21.47 | lindi- | where self.display_obj = self.tryGetProxy( "org.freesmartphone.odeviced", self.fw.ListObjectsByInterface( "org.freesmartphone.Device.Display" )[0] ) |
| 23:22.37 | Wonka | sounds... selfish. |
| 23:23.13 | lindi- | i'll try it |
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| 23:27.02 | *** part/#openmoko |FiLiP| (n=Filip@213.219.172.68.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net) |
| 23:27.08 | Wonka | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:28.03 | *** join/#openmoko grummel (n=christia@2a01:198:200:c:0:0:0:2) |
| 23:28.46 | lindi- | Wonka: figured it out |
| 23:28.50 | lindi- | Wonka: $ cli-frameworkd |
| 23:28.51 | lindi- | >>> a = bus.get_object("org.freesmartphone.odeviced", "/org/freesmartphone/Device/Display/pcf50633_bl"); |
| 23:28.54 | lindi- | >>> a.SetBrightness(90) |
| 23:29.06 | TAsnn | has anyone here built the toolchain yet? |
| 23:29.16 | lindi- | TAsnn: which one? |
| 23:29.20 | Wonka | lindi-: only got cli-framework, without d |
| 23:29.37 | lindi- | ah yes, cli-framework |
| 23:29.39 | TAsnn | lindi-, the one under toolchain in the wiki (don't know how it's called) |
| 23:29.39 | TAsnn | ;0 |
| 23:29.48 | lindi- | TAsnn: i think it listed many |
| 23:29.57 | TAsnn | sec |
| 23:29.58 | Wonka | lindi-: i put those lines in, but my display is still dark |
| 23:30.06 | lindi- | hrm |
| 23:30.09 | lindi- | now that is odd |
| 23:30.19 | TAsnn | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:30.27 | TAsnn | this one ;0 |
| 23:30.42 | lindi- | Wonka: echo 63 > /sys/class/backlight/pcf50633-bl/brightness? |
| 23:32.22 | TAsnn | lindi-, have you tried this one? |
| 23:32.42 | lindi- | TAsn: yes |
| 23:32.48 | TAsn | since im getting erros i can't seem to solve |
| 23:32.54 | lindi- | TAsn: that's the most direct way to control it |
| 23:33.05 | lindi- | what errors? |
| 23:33.07 | TAsn | trying to compile the sample app |
| 23:33.20 | lindi- | TAsn: whoops, wrong person :P |
| 23:33.22 | TAsn | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:33.33 | TAsn | for a starter |
| 23:33.35 | TAsn | a lot like that. |
| 23:33.46 | Wonka | lindi-: now i got a lighted display |
| 23:33.49 | lindi- | TAsn: what's your command line? |
| 23:33.51 | TAsn | i installed gnome-common from svn |
| 23:33.51 | lindi- | Wonka: ok |
| 23:33.55 | TAsn | lindi-, make |
| 23:33.56 | TAsn | ;0 |
| 23:33.57 | Wonka | lindi-: and the SetBrightness also works now |
| 23:34.02 | Wonka | lindi-: funny |
| 23:34.05 | lindi- | Wonka: weird |
| 23:34.12 | lindi- | Wonka: did you change anything in between? |
| 23:34.24 | lindi- | TAsn: yeah but what does make do? |
| 23:34.34 | *** join/#openmoko grummel (n=christia@cl-13.dus-01.de.sixxs.net) |
| 23:34.38 | Wonka | lindi-: i did play with /sys/class/backlight/pcf50633-bl/bl_power back before i asked here |
| 23:34.43 | TAsn | what ever sample app does, sec i will check. |
| 23:34.53 | lindi- | Wonka: hmm |
| 23:35.11 | Wonka | lindi-: put 1 in it, and after that i put the 0 back that was there before |
| 23:35.22 | lindi- | Wonka: right |
| 23:35.32 | lindi- | Wonka: if you can figure out how to reproduce this we might be able to fix the actual bug |
| 23:36.25 | TAsn | lindi-, http://pastebin.ca/1201418 |
| 23:36.38 | Wonka | lindi-: will try |
| 23:36.53 | Wonka | so. now i got zhone and it's gps app running |
| 23:37.05 | Wonka | lat, lon, alt - all n/a |
| 23:37.44 | lindi- | TAsn: well, what's the command it executes? |
| 23:38.09 | Wonka | atm, when i touch the dimmed-out screen, it goes light again |
| 23:38.49 | TAsn | lindi-, http://pastebin.ca/1201419 |
| 23:41.17 | TAsn | lindi-, any ideas? |
| 23:41.46 | *** join/#openmoko undrwater (n=russell@pool-71-160-231-186.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 23:42.15 | *** join/#openmoko Varox (n=Varox@p4FD46665.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 23:43.35 | lindi- | TAsn: you are using GTK but not linking against GTK libraries? |
| 23:43.46 | TAsn | lindi-, it's the sample app |
| 23:43.57 | TAsn | i thought everything will just be there. :) |
| 23:44.07 | lindi- | doesn't seem to be |
| 23:44.20 | TAsn | btw, is this the correct toolchain for qtopia/asu/gtk/fso? or should i use different ones? |
| 23:44.49 | lindi- | TAsn: i am not quite sure, i am using debian nowadays since i couldn't compile the other distros |
| 23:45.43 | TAsn | lindi-, i c. and for debian you use the toolchain? |
| 23:45.56 | lindi- | TAsn: no i apt-get install gcc |
| 23:46.06 | TAsn | btw, where can i get the arm gtk library? |
| 23:46.14 | TAsn | so i will be able to link to it. |
| 23:47.41 | *** join/#openmoko batti (n=batti@p5B1491E8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 23:48.32 | TAsn | i am including gtk2 |
| 23:48.33 | TAsn | -I/usr/local/openmoko/arm/arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/usr/include/gtk-2.0 |
| 23:48.41 | *** join/#openmoko Pyrasi (n=dan@74-140-180-181.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 23:49.11 | lindi- | TAsn: that's for header files |
| 23:49.14 | Pyrasi | does anyone else have a problem that the phone icon in the new fso image is greyed out? |
| 23:49.17 | lindi- | TAsn: you are not linking against gtk |
| 23:49.18 | Pyrasi | i cant click on it.... |
| 23:49.28 | TAsn | lindi-, where can i find the arm gtk? |
| 23:49.37 | Pyrasi | the address book works and i can make calls from that |
| 23:49.44 | Pyrasi | i just cant click on the dailer app |
| 23:49.48 | Wonka | gaah. shouldn't fso-frameworkd initialize the gps chip when it tries to use it? |
| 23:49.52 | lindi- | TAsn: i'd imagine the toolchain would have it, mokomakefile can build it, you can compile it |
| 23:49.58 | *** join/#openmoko grummel (n=christia@cl-13.dus-01.de.sixxs.net) |
| 23:50.15 | lindi- | Wonka: yes |
| 23:50.24 | Wonka | it complains (to /dev/null, so i can only see it using strace) some incoming data is not UBX |
| 23:50.26 | *** join/#openmoko lysanderslair (n=jeff@bas5-london14-1177906357.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 23:50.29 | Wonka | it was NMEA |
| 23:50.38 | Wonka | so i restarted frameworkd |
| 23:50.41 | balrog-k1n | if you have the headers under /usr/local/openmoko/arm/arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi then i guess the library should be somewhere in there too |
| 23:50.44 | Wonka | the same :( |
| 23:51.01 | lindi- | $ gtk-config --libs |
| 23:51.01 | lindi- | -L/usr/lib -L/usr/X11R6/lib -lgtk -lgdk -rdynamic -lgmodule -lglib -ldl -lXi -lXext -lX11 -lm |
| 23:51.08 | Pyrasi | so this isnt happening to anyone else? |
| 23:51.26 | Wonka | aaaand i had to powerup the gps chip myself |
| 23:51.29 | Wonka | frameworkd didnt |
| 23:51.29 | lindi- | Pyrasi: do you know python? |
| 23:51.36 | lindi- | Wonka: very weird |
| 23:51.40 | Pyrasi | alittle |
| 23:51.43 | lindi- | Wonka: if you have time please debug this |
| 23:52.05 | lindi- | Pyrasi: also to you i'd suggest you to study how it works :) |
| 23:52.16 | balrog-k1n | oh |
| 23:52.26 | balrog-k1n | pkg-config with PKG_CONFIG_PATH set to somewhere under /usr/local/openmoko/arm/arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi would give you the right flags to use with the arm toolchain to link against gtk |
| 23:53.06 | Wonka | lindi-: when i find time, i will look into it... atm i got too much to do for university and stuff |
| 23:53.27 | Wonka | lindi-: some hours in the evening usually are not enough :( |
| 23:55.01 | *** join/#openmoko prjktdtnt (n=trash@ip24-253-22-70.lv.lv.cox.net) |
| 23:57.51 | Wonka | lindi-: after a reboot, many things work much better... |
| 23:58.41 | prjktdtnt | Does anyone have the older Neo 1973? I am working on writing a little bash script to make DFU easier for people who have multiple devices on their PC, I have the device identifier for the FR but not the NEO1973 |
| 23:59.06 | *** join/#openmoko grummel (n=christia@cl-13.dus-01.de.sixxs.net) |
