| 00:01.40 | tessier_ | Why on earth would you ever need extreme reliability in a cell phone? |
| 00:01.47 | tessier_ | Talk about building your castle on sand! |
| 00:02.09 | nibbler | yeah - my point exactly |
| 00:02.14 | tessier_ | "my life-critical application crashed because I dropped my phone in the crapper and a dozen people died. :(" |
| 00:02.27 | nibbler | then again for non-critical stuff like drones it ould be really neat |
| 00:02.39 | nibbler | you kow that at least your app works correctly |
| 00:02.51 | nibbler | so it has to be the hardware you are tinkering with |
| 00:03.09 | nibbler | elliminates one potentially faulty component |
| 00:05.45 | CVirus | that's why people shall use windows instead of linux in planes |
| 00:06.10 | nibbler | people shall code their own realtime os for planes |
| 00:06.24 | CVirus | that's the case I'm sure |
| 00:06.27 | nibbler | it's not like the development would be significant in comparison to the rest of the task |
| 00:06.47 | nibbler | it isn't for all the systems however |
| 00:06.51 | CVirus | I think they use linux + real-time patches |
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| 00:10.27 | SpeedEvil | nibbler: pop over to #paprika |
| 00:10.32 | SpeedEvil | Err |
| 00:10.36 | SpeedEvil | #papparazi |
| 00:10.42 | SpeedEvil | Or however it's spelled |
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| 00:11.04 | kdubois | anyone use at&t with the openmoko phone? |
| 00:12.07 | CVirus | you can't use openmoko with anything but at&t ... you have to get a 5 years contract with at&t :p-p |
| 00:12.10 | CVirus | :-p* |
| 00:12.12 | CVirus | whatever |
| 00:14.27 | SpeedEvil | Seriously. |
| 00:14.36 | CVirus | noway |
| 00:14.38 | SpeedEvil | You can use freerunner (US) with any GSM network |
| 00:14.47 | CVirus | kdubois: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_compatible_cellphone_providers |
| 00:16.47 | kdubois | like they have two data services, one they claim is for flip phones, and one they claim is for smartphones. what one will i need to have for the openmoko phone? |
| 00:18.20 | nibbler | what's the difference between the tariffs? |
| 00:18.29 | kdubois | CVirus: its a two year contract :) |
| 00:18.35 | nibbler | besides that they just fit in certain shapes of handsets. |
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| 00:19.42 | nibbler | perhaps you can fold the flip phone service and slide it carefully between the battery pack and the phone... |
| 00:20.17 | kdubois | nibbler: i have no idea how or why the differntiation is made |
| 00:20.26 | kdubois | its just what the sales rep explained to me |
| 00:23.51 | nibbler | but srsly - i guess the smartphone one has real ip (as real as you will get it on packet switched mobile networks) and the "flip phone" one has fewer volume included and is meant to be used with a wap-gw or http proxy |
| 00:24.02 | nibbler | but that's just a mildly educated guess |
| 00:24.35 | kdubois | hmm, its a better guess than i have :D |
| 00:25.24 | nibbler | still a guess tho :) |
| 00:25.53 | nibbler | don't they have the text of the actual contract on their page? |
| 00:26.01 | nibbler | it should be in the fine print |
| 00:27.09 | nibbler | somewhere in-between all the things they are not liable for which you never wanted to know that well anyway |
| 00:27.37 | kdubois | heh, yeah |
| 00:27.49 | kdubois | i'm sure theres some way to get it to work with the cheaper plan |
| 00:28.01 | kdubois | but data access isnt a necessity in my book anyway |
| 00:28.30 | nibbler | has nothing more than distilled pure hate for mobile network operators and their behaviour during the last few years |
| 00:28.41 | kdubois | you and me both |
| 00:29.05 | nibbler | not with wifi. - but i got quite accustom to it over the years |
| 00:29.21 | nibbler | however i don't know how well the coverage is in your corner |
| 00:29.27 | nibbler | - of the world |
| 00:29.57 | kdubois | as far as i know, its alright enough |
| 00:31.15 | kdubois | now i've just got to wait for the release... |
| 00:31.27 | kdubois | is that on the order of weeks? months? |
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| 00:35.57 | nibbler | weeks |
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| 00:39.06 | *** topic/#openmoko is No, Freerunner is not out yet. Official updates at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates . | ASU means August Software Update and is coming soon |
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| 00:49.49 | wurp2 | Is anyone running fso? |
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| 02:14.27 | rtm | Could someone tell me what FSO is? |
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| 02:21.00 | wurp2 | freesmartphone.org release |
| 02:21.14 | wurp2 | aka zhone, but zhone is really just the only end-user app that's in fso now |
| 02:21.47 | rtm | Thanks. Is it completely separate from the ASU? |
| 02:22.08 | wurp2 | now, and probably for a long while, yes |
| 02:22.38 | wurp2 | eventually I think it will be the architecture for OM |
| 02:22.58 | rtm | So, ASU will eventually be discarded too? |
| 02:23.05 | wurp2 | I have no idea |
| 02:23.16 | wurp2 | I think a lot of stuff the ASU does will be discarded |
| 02:23.21 | wurp2 | but a lot will be kept |
| 02:23.49 | wurp2 | I don't think the plan going into the future is to use the qtopia dialer in OM, and I think that's what ASU does |
| 02:24.17 | wurp2 | I personally think the ASU is a big fuck up |
| 02:25.18 | wurp2 | but the asu adds in several other gui toolkits, and lets you run Qtopia apps mixed with OM ones, so some good came from it |
| 02:25.44 | rtm | Yes, I guess the Qtopia on X11 was good. |
| 02:27.35 | rtm | Does the FSO follow the D-Bus based software model? |
| 02:28.30 | wurp2 | rtm: Yeah, that's the whole goal |
| 02:28.42 | wurp2 | To build the dbus based model and a "bread-n-butter" app to show it off |
| 02:28.54 | wurp2 | I'm running it on my gta01 right now |
| 02:29.09 | rtm | Well, that sounds like progress then. |
| 02:29.13 | wurp2 | But what I'm seeing isn't very user friendly, and appears slightly busted, to boot |
| 02:29.33 | wurp2 | I know some people have been running versions that seem to at least work for them |
| 02:29.43 | wurp2 | I like the fso model a lot |
| 02:30.03 | wurp2 | not least because there's actually a model, instead of just people coding like hell |
| 02:30.16 | raster | asu is "interesting" |
| 02:30.16 | rtm | Well, I can make calls fairly reliably with the old GTK stuff on my '01 - it's just that suspend/resume will probably never work. |
| 02:31.15 | rtm | I was mistaken then. I had thought the ASU was a step in the D-Bus direction, but I guess not. |
| 02:31.16 | wurp2 | mwester has a kernel that's supposed to make suspend/resume work |
| 02:31.24 | wurp2 | I thought so too |
| 02:32.04 | wurp2 | initially |
| 02:33.11 | rtm | Well, thanks again for the info. It's good to see the D-Bus stuff is coming along. |
| 02:33.59 | wurp2 | you're welcome. From what I hear, at least a couple of people have zhone releases that give them stable phones for multiple days, with suspend & resume on incoming call |
| 02:34.19 | wurp2 | So it sounds as if it's coming along nicely. Now if only I can find the images they're using :-) |
| 02:41.58 | *** join/#openmoko linuxxr (n=brian@ip70-178-27-23.ks.ks.cox.net) |
| 02:42.13 | linuxxr | Participate in the Android Developer Challenge, which will give away $10 million to developers who build apps on the platform. |
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| 02:42.19 | linuxxr | wow |
| 02:42.30 | SpeedEvil | ... |
| 02:42.34 | linuxxr | they gonna buy dev's |
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| 02:42.55 | rtm | Each developer gets 10 million? |
| 02:43.00 | SpeedEvil | is in! |
| 02:43.06 | linuxxr | i dont know |
| 02:43.08 | linuxxr | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:43.14 | rtm | Rats |
| 02:43.20 | SpeedEvil | Aww. |
| 02:43.28 | rtm | Cheap bastards. |
| 02:43.37 | linuxxr | t |
| 02:43.47 | linuxxr | y thats wat it sayr though |
| 02:44.18 | linuxxr | u guys just stay put |
| 02:44.23 | rtm | Andriod developer challenge may attract those Battle Bit guys. |
| 02:44.35 | rtm | oops Battle Bot |
| 02:46.01 | linuxxr | need to dev a newer network open source style |
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| 02:54.17 | mwester-trip | wurp2: I tend to agree about ASU; I think the point-haired bosses thought it was something that could just be "whipped up" in a month, so they could sell GTA02's... and it's turned into really quite a mess. (Not to detract from the efforts of those doing the work; rather a commentary on the sorry state of the code they were given, and the irrational expectations of whomever made that decision). |
| 02:55.31 | mwester-trip | will write an android application for 1/10 of that; 1 million is a lot of money. |
| 02:56.23 | rtm | DOn't start a race to the bottom. Hold out for the full 10 meg. |
| 02:56.40 | mwester-trip | hehe! :) |
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| 02:58.16 | mwester-trip | Re: suspend/resume and fso -- it looks pretty good, but it still needs to be integrated (it can be better than it is, I think -- especially on the GTA01). I plan on working on that when I get some time (my employer has been annoying me by making me do work-related activities while at work - how odd ;) ) |
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| 03:00.51 | rtm | Was zhone a from-scratch project from the Openmoko folks, or did it have some earlier incarnation on another platform? |
| 03:01.13 | josch | it had |
| 03:01.15 | josch | i wrote it |
| 03:01.41 | rtm | Really! What was it originally targeted for? |
| 03:01.46 | josch | http://neo1973-germany.de/wiki/pyPhone |
| 03:01.50 | josch | lol the same of course |
| 03:02.05 | josch | but it didnt use the framework at that time as it was non existant |
| 03:02.33 | rtm | So it originalted with the "underground" folks? |
| 03:02.40 | josch | completely |
| 03:02.59 | rtm | Cool. I like your pyPenNotes! |
| 03:03.12 | josch | this is actually the work of kristian-m ^^ |
| 03:03.23 | josch | and zad is from emdete |
| 03:03.57 | rtm | Is zhone still pure python? |
| 03:04.05 | josch | why not? |
| 03:04.09 | josch | 100% python |
| 03:04.15 | rtm | Just asking... |
| 03:06.22 | raster | suspend/resume is pretty reliable in asu these days |
| 03:06.48 | raster | be wary of python |
| 03:07.08 | raster | unless of course you like your 400mhz phone returning to the land of a 10mhz PIC. |
| 03:07.08 | rtm | Why be wary of Python? |
| 03:07.25 | raster | python is slow |
| 03:07.34 | raster | you pay a hefty price for using it (being lazy) |
| 03:07.37 | josch | myths i would call them |
| 03:07.42 | raster | a very hefty price |
| 03:07.48 | josch | we at neo1973-germany do everything in py |
| 03:07.49 | raster | josch: i've done actual benchmarks |
| 03:07.56 | josch | of course |
| 03:08.07 | josch | the hard work is still done in c |
| 03:08.22 | raster | python clocked in about 290 times slower than c |
| 03:08.32 | josch | this depends on what you do with it |
| 03:08.37 | raster | for doing the exact same logic/operations |
| 03:08.46 | raster | this was apples vs appls |
| 03:08.58 | raster | the more u do in python |
| 03:09.05 | raster | the more of your execution stack is in python |
| 03:09.09 | raster | and the bigger price you pay |
| 03:09.12 | raster | thus - beware |
| 03:09.12 | josch | if you write gui apps like e* apps then you probably wont see any difference between c and python since in both cases the e* libs do all the work |
| 03:09.32 | raster | i have heard much trumpeting of "do everything in python! everything must be python" |
| 03:09.48 | josch | hrm... |
| 03:09.50 | raster | and it makes me go "well there goes that project. good luck." |
| 03:09.59 | raster | yuou do only the most minimal layers in pythoin |
| 03:09.59 | josch | this should be impossible |
| 03:10.01 | raster | if you use it |
| 03:10.09 | josch | good luck with writing 2d grahics in pure python :P |
| 03:10.16 | raster | and maybe with the highe rlevel app - yes |
| 03:10.30 | josch | never said anything else |
| 03:10.34 | raster | but a perfect example is there is a "list widget" the python etk bindings implement |
| 03:10.36 | josch | python is for high level work |
| 03:10.38 | raster | and its implemnented IN python |
| 03:10.46 | josch | or for prototyping things that are later written in c |
| 03:10.52 | raster | now that has been dropped for using core evas objects and etk directly |
| 03:10.55 | raster | instead oft the python widget |
| 03:11.00 | raster | there is a noticable speedup |
| 03:11.21 | josch | one would use the etk bindings of course |
| 03:11.24 | raster | the problem is that some people want everything in python so "Designerts" can do everythign they like |
| 03:11.28 | raster | things like processing |
| 03:11.31 | raster | all those flash demos |
| 03:11.35 | josch | haha |
| 03:11.37 | raster | where they do "physics engines" |
| 03:11.40 | raster | in "flash" |
| 03:11.44 | raster | you know what i mean |
| 03:11.47 | josch | noone ever spoke of doing everything in python |
| 03:11.55 | raster | YOU didnt |
| 03:11.59 | raster | but others around have |
| 03:12.30 | raster | others forcing python into "everything must be python" |
| 03:12.33 | josch | just used ctypes yesterday to profit from some real c-libs :D |
| 03:12.33 | raster | for us |
| 03:12.54 | raster | the same people point at things like processing |
| 03:13.04 | raster | and say "we want designers to use processign to make ui's" |
| 03:13.18 | raster | and in the same breath say "everything must be python" |
| 03:13.22 | raster | i know exactly what they want |
| 03:13.27 | raster | and i know what they dream of |
| 03:13.34 | raster | and i know just how much that is going to suck. |
| 03:13.39 | *** join/#openmoko mgregson (n=mgregson@S0106000f66911f39.cg.shawcable.net) |
| 03:13.47 | raster | it works on desktops because you have 200x the processing power |
| 03:14.26 | rtm | That's why mobile platforms are fun. Efficiency is still important. |
| 03:14.43 | raster | so to have that flexibility you need more and more 'python' doing lower and lower level things |
| 03:14.43 | josch | on the neo it even works for a bunch of dbus daemons in the back but those will probably be reimplemented in c someday |
| 03:14.52 | raster | implementing whole pyhsics "engines" or animation loops |
| 03:14.55 | raster | widgets |
| 03:14.56 | raster | etc. |
| 03:15.20 | josch | raster, do you see this movement in openmoko? |
| 03:15.25 | raster | yes |
| 03:15.29 | josch | o0 |
| 03:15.38 | josch | nah - no way |
| 03:16.07 | raster | thats my point |
| 03:16.22 | raster | there is a place for python |
| 03:16.33 | raster | and it sure as hell is not one of an actionscritp replacement on a phone |
| 03:17.14 | raster | for simple high level logic that is not part of a core ui or mainloop |
| 03:17.21 | raster | its good for high level logic glue |
| 03:17.52 | raster | it is NOT good at stuff u call in animatin loops to calculate the positions/properties of 100's of objects dzens of times per second |
| 03:17.54 | raster | :) |
| 03:18.17 | raster | just the cost of going from c to pythgon and back (marshalling/unmarhsalling) all the parameters and returns is nasty overhead |
| 03:19.10 | mwester-trip | wishes everyone would just punt the stupid fancy graphics to the back of the line, where it belongs, so that people can focus on making the device do what it was designed to -- like make phone calls!! THEN we can argue about what language fancy wihizzy graphics should use! |
| 03:20.30 | mwester-trip | I call it "GUI-first" development -- when developers mimic marketing types, who (of course) design products GUI-first... it's rather like wallpapering a building, and then trying to erect the walls behind the paper flapping in the wind. |
| 03:20.51 | raster | dont look at me |
| 03:20.58 | josch | haha |
| 03:21.03 | raster | those who pay me insist on having their mockups done first |
| 03:21.09 | raster | so they can ":see how it feels" on a phone |
| 03:21.22 | mwester-trip | I'm not looking at anyone on this channel, I expect -- the guilty don't show up here! |
| 03:21.24 | raster | long before any 43 thoguht/design is put into it to make it a long term sustainable system |
| 03:21.35 | raster | the MOSt important thing is the mockup being pixel-perfect on the device |
| 03:21.52 | raster | i seed mockups |
| 03:22.09 | raster | and the first thing i do is tryy and identify what is a common theme and requires a common subsystem or featur |
| 03:22.13 | raster | and that may need a lot of back-end work |
| 03:22.23 | raster | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:22.34 | raster | because "look- this demo app here does it - you can do it for everything too" |
| 03:23.24 | raster | (even tho the demo app just opens a fullscreen window and does everything itself as opposed to having an actual SYSTEM where multiple processes interact and share the screen - in an organised way, that gets you the same effects, but requires a mountain more infrastructure to happen) |
| 03:24.25 | mwester-trip | Clearly the PHB's have mocked up the wrong things then -- the purpose of a mockup is to ensure that the design is correct before committing to it -- we now have three completely different images for the phones, none of which is really complete... that should never have happened. ( But I'm "preaching to the choir", so to speak) |
| 03:25.14 | raster | asu is meant to supsercede the old om images |
| 03:25.17 | raster | so that doesnt matter |
| 03:25.31 | raster | fso is enytirely separate to the phb designs. |
| 03:25.37 | raster | so as such asu is its own bubble |
| 03:25.40 | raster | as is fso |
| 03:25.46 | *** join/#openmoko SpeedEvil (n=fjfjfjf@mauve.plus.com) |
| 03:25.52 | raster | and the gtk+matchbox etc. stuff is the old legacy bubble |
| 03:25.57 | rtm | But it sounds like ASU doesn't use the D_Bus structure, and is a dead-end. |
| 03:26.00 | raster | so that isnt really an issue as such |
| 03:26.06 | raster | rtm: no it doesnt |
| 03:26.39 | raster | what should happen is a mockup as an idea |
| 03:26.49 | rtm | raster: You mean, no it doesn't use D-Bus, right? |
| 03:27.01 | raster | then engineering come bnack with "nide idea - but 80% of it is not possible without massive infra work, so the folowing features you use must be cut out" |
| 03:27.05 | SpeedEvil | raster: you can't waste time on mockups! |
| 03:27.08 | SpeedEvil | :/ |
| 03:27.10 | raster | rtm: well dbus exists - of course |
| 03:27.12 | mwester-trip | ASU is a tangled mess of code, almost unmaintainable, and is IMO unlikely to survive under the crushing weight of that Qtopia bloat that barely works. |
| 03:27.23 | raster | but its not using dbus for making calls or stuff |
| 03:27.27 | raster | qtopia does that |
| 03:27.41 | mwester-trip | exactly. |
| 03:27.46 | raster | SpeedEvil: face it. the phb's are designers. not engineers. |
| 03:27.48 | raster | they want to do design |
| 03:27.51 | SpeedEvil | :/ |
| 03:27.53 | raster | they want to see their designs on the phones |
| 03:27.53 | rtm | So it's a dead-end. |
| 03:28.02 | raster | simple |
| 03:28.10 | raster | me, you and everyone else is irrelevant to that |
| 03:28.21 | raster | their designs (and designs of their designer friends) are what is important |
| 03:28.21 | mwester-trip | Agreed. |
| 03:28.26 | SpeedEvil | raster: and changing horses in mid-stream shows you're dynamic. |
| 03:28.30 | mwester-trip | That's why I'm throwing my support behind FSO. |
| 03:28.34 | raster | and the community, their designs, or experience are not a factor in that. |
| 03:28.46 | raster | they are designers |
| 03:28.52 | rtm | Let a thousand flowers (partially) bloom! |
| 03:29.01 | raster | and their designs are what is the core thing to implement |
| 03:29.11 | mwester-trip | SpeedEvil: re: changing horses comment -- are you sure you're not in marketing ;) |
| 03:29.18 | *** join/#openmoko jeffszusz (n=jeffsz@d57-109-198.home.cgocable.net) |
| 03:29.25 | raster | and that is what we are implementing |
| 03:29.27 | raster | and we get paid to do |
| 03:31.24 | SpeedEvil | So what's the current direction? Qtopia + other stuff? |
| 03:31.30 | raster | imho the idea of multiple widget sets is fine |
| 03:31.34 | raster | x is a common factor anyway |
| 03:31.56 | raster | imho its better than qtoipia (pure/qws) or android |
| 03:32.10 | raster | u dont have a ":brand new" windowing and toolkit system to have to port to |
| 03:32.15 | raster | you can use whatever works best for you |
| 03:33.35 | raster | the dbus apis in fso are just that |
| 03:33.41 | raster | back-end dbus apis |
| 03:33.46 | raster | they can slide in almost anywhere |
| 03:33.57 | jeffszusz | wishes he would have come in at the beginning of the discussion: is there a Spark's Notes version? |
| 03:34.27 | raster | i see qtopia as a temporary solution in asu |
| 03:34.27 | SpeedEvil | jeffszusz: I'm gathering that raster is ready to explode. |
| 03:34.33 | SpeedEvil | :/ |
| 03:34.34 | raster | i personalyl didn't want it |
| 03:34.38 | raster | it just doesnt feel right |
| 03:34.52 | raster | but it seems to partially work |
| 03:34.53 | raster | well make calls |
| 03:34.56 | raster | kind-of |
| 03:35.02 | raster | and kind-of answer them |
| 03:35.04 | jeffszusz | qtopia on the Neo was actually openmoko? I thought someone had put qtopia on it for laughs |
| 03:35.14 | raster | theres been a hefty list of gettign qtopia to behave well under X11 |
| 03:35.35 | raster | like still having double-draw issues where the qpe apps lay out and raw their window teice on show |
| 03:35.46 | raster | all sorts of assumptions on the windowing system |
| 03:35.52 | raster | ie wqs vs x11 |
| 03:35.55 | raster | qws |
| 03:36.10 | raster | things like the qpe softmen being a hybrid of x11 and qcom communication |
| 03:36.26 | raster | whihc all in all has race conditions designed into it as such |
| 03:36.36 | raster | so these are still being fixed by zecke |
| 03:36.59 | raster | right now qpe takes about 15 seconds to respond to the modem going "incming call!" |
| 03:37.06 | raster | and actually showing the incoming call window/screen |
| 03:37.11 | raster | wich is just unusable |
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| 03:37.22 | rtm | Does FSO use any of the Qtopia stuff? |
| 03:37.29 | SpeedEvil | If they want to call you, they'll hang on. |
| 03:37.33 | SpeedEvil | It's a positive! |
| 03:39.28 | raster | yeah |
| 03:39.33 | raster | zecke is looking into this |
| 03:39.46 | raster | but it has a lot of features as such |
| 03:39.50 | raster | so maybe its just teething problems |
| 03:40.46 | jeffszusz | hmm |
| 03:41.42 | *** join/#openmoko kdean06 (n=Kevin@fsf/member/kdean06) |
| 03:41.42 | jeffszusz | speculates about and hopes for an eventual OpenMoko PDA |
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| 03:45.20 | raster | how is the freertunner different to a pda? |
| 03:45.30 | raster | other than u get wifi and bluetooth and gsm/gprs too? |
| 03:46.32 | SpeedEvil | I think software. |
| 03:46.34 | jeffszusz | i suppose i should have said "internet tablet" |
| 03:46.38 | SpeedEvil | Ah |
| 03:46.56 | jeffszusz | think Nokia N810 with open hardware, more open software |
| 03:47.10 | raster | so other than software |
| 03:47.13 | jeffszusz | though the Freerunner's GPS + GSM = awesomer |
| 03:47.17 | raster | hos is the freerunner not that? |
| 03:47.24 | raster | (other than smaller screen) |
| 03:47.26 | jeffszusz | bigger screen, Raster. and a slide-out keyboard so you don't have to use the stylus. |
| 03:47.27 | raster | ? |
| 03:47.35 | raster | well n800 didnt have a kbd |
| 03:47.41 | raster | and its an internet table/pda |
| 03:47.42 | raster | :) |
| 03:47.44 | SpeedEvil | I've been contemplating a PDAish. |
| 03:47.47 | raster | u werent very specifci :) |
| 03:47.54 | jeffszusz | N810 has a keyboard... also, the bigger screen allows more of a desktop-view instead of a list |
| 03:48.11 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * r498fca7d6218 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Build a Qtopia version with Theme performance improvements |
| 03:48.20 | SpeedEvil | 8 bit color screen, 4.3" display, GSM, GPS, 120*25*80mm or so. |
| 03:48.25 | raster | right now it makes much more sense to do a phone |
| 03:48.32 | raster | as it just has a much bigger market out there |
| 03:48.46 | raster | an open device is already a niche enough market |
| 03:48.52 | raster | may as well try the biggest niche there is |
| 03:48.53 | raster | :) |
| 03:48.57 | jeffszusz | and I would personally give a public commendation to anyone who ported the N810-specific Canola2 media player to it. |
| 03:49.22 | raster | aaah canola |
| 03:49.23 | raster | :) |
| 03:49.32 | jeffszusz | yup |
| 03:49.44 | raster | shouldnt be too hard |
| 03:50.26 | jeffszusz | my line of thinking goes "mmmmm Canola. I want an n810 just for Canola. No, wait. I want an OpenMoko phone... and internet tablet would be redundant...Mmmm...Canola on a Neo with a bigger screen) |
| 03:50.52 | raster | well canola should be able to work in the fr's screen |
| 03:50.57 | raster | just it wont be that snappy |
| 03:51.03 | raster | it's be usable |
| 03:51.06 | jeffszusz | hm |
| 03:51.09 | SpeedEvil | You could put a bugger screen on the neo quite easily. |
| 03:51.12 | raster | it'd be |
| 03:51.15 | jeffszusz | you could? |
| 03:51.15 | SpeedEvil | Bigger |
| 03:51.19 | SpeedEvil | All you really need is the case. |
| 03:51.21 | raster | but the n800/810 have significantly better video hw |
| 03:51.38 | SpeedEvil | 'quite easily' is assuming you're happy with a SMT rework station. |
| 03:51.48 | jeffszusz | SMT? |
| 03:51.59 | SpeedEvil | In other words, not you :) |
| 03:52.06 | jeffszusz | = not a developer |
| 03:52.09 | SpeedEvil | Surface Mount Technology. |
| 03:52.27 | SpeedEvil | Basically if you are scared of attacking working hardware with hot bits of metal, no. |
| 03:52.36 | jeffszusz | i support open source...and advocate it, and use it, etc. but I can't code worth a damn yet. |
| 03:52.51 | raster | aaah |
| 03:52.57 | raster | well then just buy stuff that uses open source |
| 03:53.01 | jeffszusz | and i haven't touched a soldering iron since grade 9 |
| 03:53.05 | jeffszusz | lol |
| 03:53.06 | raster | and that at least is true to oss's ideals |
| 03:53.09 | raster | or mostly |
| 03:53.20 | raster | ie mstuff that ships source |
| 03:53.26 | raster | gives back to the community and upstream devs |
| 03:53.34 | jeffszusz | mhm |
| 03:54.03 | SpeedEvil | In some ways I'm leaning towards the elegance of the GTA01 shipped image. |
| 03:54.19 | jeffszusz | how so? |
| 03:54.42 | SpeedEvil | No root filesystem at all. Just a working kernel. |
| 03:54.58 | jeffszusz | lol...ouch |
| 03:55.09 | raster | hahaha |
| 03:55.20 | pjz | playing with writing an android app. |
| 03:55.23 | raster | SpeedEvil: "working" kernel was a bit of a stretch |
| 03:55.35 | SpeedEvil | raster: sort-of, yes. |
| 03:55.37 | josch | pjz, wrong channel |
| 03:56.08 | raster | pjz: #android |
| 03:56.13 | josch | raster, you will laugh - i rly manage to do useful stuff with this kernel :P |
| 03:56.21 | raster | josch: ahahahah |
| 03:56.26 | rtm | josch: Come on, we could have converted pjz. |
| 03:57.58 | pjz | jeez, chill, I wasn't asking for help or anything, just noting what I'm doing at the moment. |
| 03:58.20 | pjz | besides, FR could run android |
| 03:58.40 | josch | yeah probably also windows ce |
| 03:59.00 | pjz | anyone played with the FSO images? |
| 03:59.36 | josch | if playing is more than using zhone, then yes |
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| 04:04.53 | wurp2 | josch: I installed FSO, and while I could get it to make calls (most times) I couldn't hear either way after picking up :-( |
| 04:05.04 | wurp2 | I suspect I just got a bad image, but it was one that someone had recommended |
| 04:05.19 | wurp2 | I also heard that it supports suspend/resume, but I didn't see any way in the UI to suspend |
| 04:05.51 | josch | hehe |
| 04:05.54 | josch | it supports it |
| 04:05.58 | josch | as it does sms |
| 04:06.17 | josch | but fso is not so much about the ui as it is about the things behind it |
| 04:08.06 | wurp2 | yeah, I know, but when I'm in a position to actually need a mobile phone, access to features through the UI is nice :-) |
| 04:08.22 | josch | then you have to use asu |
| 04:08.23 | wurp2 | I'm not at all knocking fso - it's early, and I really like the direction |
| 04:08.39 | wurp2 | josch: er, afaik you can't make or receive calls with the asu |
| 04:08.41 | josch | for the first time the direction is to NOT put the ui first |
| 04:08.48 | josch | and still people complain :P |
| 04:08.49 | wurp2 | josch: I use scaredycat's gtk imgaes |
| 04:09.10 | wurp2 | I didn't see anyone complain |
| 04:09.15 | josch | sry - i barely have experiences with asu |
| 04:09.29 | josch | i'm mostly with debian, zad and fso |
| 04:09.38 | wurp2 | debian on the neo? |
| 04:09.43 | josch | -.- |
| 04:09.54 | josch | i wrote this comprehensive tutorial: |
| 04:10.00 | josch | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debian |
| 04:10.09 | josch | i also have some ready to use tar archives there |
| 04:10.54 | wurp2 | I see how to install |
| 04:11.00 | wurp2 | But not how to use it to do anything :-) |
| 04:11.07 | josch | huh? |
| 04:11.22 | wurp2 | e.g. make a call, listen to music, type stuff in terminal |
| 04:11.23 | josch | hahaha |
| 04:11.34 | josch | for making a call either use AT commands via serial terminal or |
| 04:11.46 | josch | install some openmoko phone stack of your choice |
| 04:11.49 | josch | this is only debian |
| 04:11.58 | wurp2 | Why would I spend 2 hours overwriting my neo install to put it in a state where I can't do anything? |
| 04:12.00 | josch | nothing i tweaked to be usable as a phone |
| 04:12.09 | josch | not 2 hours |
| 04:12.19 | josch | you just put the ready to use tar on your sd card |
| 04:12.23 | josch | and boot from it |
| 04:12.33 | wurp2 | I thought so, but my point is to get something I can primarily use as a phone, media player, + gps |
| 04:12.33 | josch | then open up the console and xkbd |
| 04:12.40 | josch | and apt-get some good stuff |
| 04:12.41 | wurp2 | then if I can hack on it, that's great |
| 04:13.04 | josch | well for hacking debian is great because you no longer have to use bitbake to have your stuff compiles |
| 04:13.05 | josch | d |
| 04:13.12 | wurp2 | :-) |
| 04:13.16 | josch | i always natively compile on the neo now |
| 04:14.25 | wurp2 | Yeah, it's great work... if I had a 2nd neo to leave connected to my linux machine, I might install it to play with |
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| 04:14.42 | wurp2 | but my goal now is to find something that works better than the unsupported GTK to do daily phone stuff with, and so far that's not there |
| 04:14.55 | josch | correct |
| 04:15.12 | wurp2 | well, actually, Qtopia would be it, if I could find a Qtopia image now :-) |
| 04:15.20 | kdean06 | For 01? |
| 04:15.24 | josch | there are many projects working on that but so far none is usable as an everyday phone |
| 04:15.25 | wurp2 | yeah |
| 04:15.30 | wurp2 | kdean06: yes |
| 04:15.45 | kdean06 | I've got one... |
| 04:15.46 | wurp2 | josch: I'm putting my money on fso |
| 04:15.56 | wurp2 | kdean06: linksies? |
| 04:16.12 | josch | fso is about the framework and NOT the gui in the first place |
| 04:16.23 | wurp2 | josch: sure |
| 04:16.24 | josch | you can already do stuff like phone, sms, contacts with fso |
| 04:16.52 | josch | so what you bet on is that |
| 04:17.00 | wurp2 | josch: You mean the framework can do it, or *I* can do it, while I'm out and about with my mobile? |
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| 04:17.23 | josch | framework can do it and you can do it with a keyboard and a bash console |
| 04:18.55 | wurp2 | josch: it might be worthwhile for me to throw together a crap UI to do SMS and contacts |
| 04:19.06 | wurp2 | josch: Do you know what back end it uses to store contacts? |
| 04:19.12 | wurp2 | i.e. datastore format? |
| 04:20.20 | josch | i think four now you may only read/write sim contacts |
| 04:20.28 | wurp2 | ah |
| 04:20.34 | wurp2 | still handy |
| 04:20.37 | josch | but this database thingy is targeted for milestone 2 |
| 04:20.51 | josch | abraxa__, is working on stuff like this |
| 04:20.56 | wurp2 | am I correct that there is no UI for hanging up? |
| 04:21.14 | josch | read here: http://neo1973-germany.de/wiki/pyPimd |
| 04:21.22 | josch | wurp2, where? |
| 04:21.32 | wurp2 | in zhone |
| 04:21.40 | josch | there should be |
| 04:21.47 | josch | but do not bother about the ui |
| 04:21.56 | josch | it is only for demonstration |
| 04:23.09 | wurp2 | having someone put together a UI that shows off what the framework can do can make a big difference in the attention the project gets... |
| 04:23.32 | wurp2 | I don't think people on the framework team should get distracted with this |
| 04:23.34 | josch | this is what openmoko did wrong the whole time |
| 04:23.44 | wurp2 | I don't think so |
| 04:23.53 | wurp2 | I think what they did wrong was to not pay any attention to infrastructure |
| 04:24.02 | josch | okay |
| 04:24.21 | wurp2 | but you guys can pay attention to infrastructure and still have people build a UI that uses your infra |
| 04:24.35 | wurp2 | Just don't let those people drive the project |
| 04:26.57 | wurp2 | well, I gotta go to bed |
| 04:27.08 | wurp2 | g'night all! |
| 04:27.14 | josch | gotta get up |
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| 04:34.04 | kelvie | to develop anything openmoko related, one will _need_ gcc 3.3? |
| 04:35.21 | kelvie | and is it right that there are.. several source code repositories |
| 04:35.27 | kelvie | and I'll need mtn, svn, and git on my system? |
| 04:35.56 | Mek_ | didn't what used to be mtn switch to git? |
| 04:36.04 | kelvie | I have no clue |
| 04:36.07 | kelvie | the wiki doesn't seem to be that up to date |
| 04:36.19 | kelvie | I checked out the Git repo, and the top level Makefile wants to run mtn :P |
| 04:36.28 | kelvie | (openmoko.git, that is) |
| 04:37.39 | kelvie | and according to the wiki, everyone still hates Qt/opia |
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| 04:38.55 | mmontour | kelvie: No to needing gcc 3.3 (although you probably need 3.something to build qemu). Yes to "several repositories". You shouldn't need mtn any longer. |
| 04:39.50 | kelvie | mmontour: ah.. do I need qemu though? |
| 04:39.56 | kelvie | can't I just run it in Xephyr? :p |
| 04:40.36 | mmontour | You don't need qemu. I don't know anything about Xephyr. |
| 04:40.42 | kelvie | ah |
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| 04:44.13 | mmontour | qemu is used by default during the build, to generate locale files for glibc. You can disable this with an 'ENABLE_BINARY_LOCALE_GENERATION = "0"' option in your build/conf/local.conf file. |
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| 04:52.36 | kelvie | mmontour: alright.. I'll see how far I can get :p |
| 04:52.44 | kelvie | I do have all the source so I should be able to figure stuff out along the way |
| 04:53.40 | mmontour | This isn't a good time for beginners. There are several possible software images that you can build, none of which works yet. |
| 04:54.02 | kelvie | hmm |
| 04:54.21 | mmontour | Feel free to try, just expect some pain :) |
| 04:54.43 | kelvie | hehe |
| 04:54.57 | kelvie | I like using broken software sometimes |
| 04:55.06 | kelvie | to help fix it at least |
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| 05:08.39 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03raster 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * rfef3a528c3c6 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: update config to make use of aux ANd power as desired and enable lock screen |
| 05:08.40 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03raster 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * r44339e945cba 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: Merge branch 'org.openmoko.asu.dev' of git+ssh://git@git.openmoko.org/var/cache/git/openmoko into org.openmoko.asu.dev |
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| 05:54.36 | mmontour | w00t! Just got packet radio transmission working from my Neo. |
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| 06:22.02 | CIA-45 | freesmartphone.org: 03charlie 07framework * rbdefce25fd1e 10/ (20 files in 11 dirs): Merged preferences service into framework |
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| 06:32.06 | goodwill | time to try asu |
| 06:32.17 | goodwill | an I right to thin asu is a tag? |
| 06:32.21 | goodwill | or a branch |
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| 06:32.44 | goodwill | how does it compare to the trunk? |
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| 06:38.06 | ahven | hehe, april turns into august :P |
| 06:39.40 | mbuf | ahven, both are gender names as well |
| 06:40.00 | ahven | yep |
| 06:40.20 | maroi | or autumn ;) |
| 06:40.46 | goodwill | look at least its not acember ;) |
| 06:40.57 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.stable * r0a6ead2d1572 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] We want the experimental callhandling fixes from Qtopia |
| 06:40.57 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.stable * rd5188d6389fd 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Build a Qtopia version with Theme performance improvements |
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| 06:49.32 | goodwill | can somebody tell me what asu.stable is and what asu.dev is and hwo it relates to utopia please |
| 06:49.54 | goodwill | erm |
| 06:49.56 | goodwill | qutopia |
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| 06:50.07 | goodwill | is asu qutopia based? |
| 06:51.46 | Sup3rkiddo | yes |
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| 06:52.15 | Sup3rkiddo | afaik one of the main tasks was to port it use x11 insteaed of the framebuffer |
| 06:52.30 | Sup3rkiddo | of course i could be pathetically wrong :p |
| 06:53.29 | goodwill | is the gtk interface no longer supported? |
| 06:53.33 | mmontour | "stable" and "dev" are two branches of ASU (packages are developed on "dev" then moved to "stable" when they seem to be working correctly) |
| 06:53.55 | *** join/#openmoko bentob0x (n=laurent@ip-213-49-84-138.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 06:55.15 | mmontour | The libraries will still be available for 3rd-party gtk apps. The core OM stuff will not use gtk (AFAIK) |
| 06:55.26 | *** join/#openmoko baird (n=cbaird@brushtail.apana.org.au) |
| 06:56.45 | goodwill | mmontour: so what exactly is openmoko.dev then? |
| 06:56.56 | goodwill | is asu a branch of that? for gta02 |
| 06:56.57 | goodwill | ? |
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| 06:58.40 | mmontour | Something like that. openmoko.dev has newer versions of some of the upstream packages, and will be the basis for whatever comes after ASU. I think. I'm somewhat confused myself by all of these branches. |
| 06:58.51 | mmontour | And then there's FSO... |
| 06:59.23 | goodwill | erm? |
| 06:59.55 | mmontour | freesmartphone.org - another in-development software stack. |
| 07:02.43 | methril | morning |
| 07:02.54 | *** join/#openmoko ohin (n=opera@racdemo.technodat.cz) |
| 07:03.25 | goodwill | mmontour: that does not seem to be very active |
| 07:04.32 | goodwill | so openmoko active stack in now qt based... |
| 07:06.30 | mmontour | http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone1/ <- FSO (see also the recent discussion on the community ML) |
| 07:07.24 | goodwill | I am so flipping confused |
| 07:07.31 | goodwill | *readign the lists now* |
| 07:07.36 | mmontour | You're not the only one. |
| 07:07.48 | goodwill | they got qt, gtk+ and e17 |
| 07:07.52 | goodwill | what the hell is going on |
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| 07:08.58 | raster | "my god. they have ls, rm and mv! i'm so confused!" |
| 07:09.14 | goodwill | *blinks* |
| 07:09.16 | goodwill | you should be |
| 07:09.27 | raster | "crap this distribution comes with zsh, bash AND tcsh! eek!" |
| 07:10.04 | goodwill | raster: the real question is what the main stack is based on ... |
| 07:10.20 | raster | why does there have to be a main stack |
| 07:10.28 | raster | and why does it have to be based on a widget set? |
| 07:10.34 | balrog-kun | they should ship the phones with empty flash :) |
| 07:10.44 | balrog-kun | so that everyone is forced to choose their own main stack |
| 07:11.05 | mmontour | They did that with GTA01. |
| 07:11.06 | balrog-kun | gentoo like |
| 07:11.17 | goodwill | raster: mainly because its completely unclear whats going. I used to be GTK+ based...is it now qutopia based? |
| 07:11.28 | raster | its x11 based |
| 07:11.29 | goodwill | I=it |
| 07:11.47 | raster | i'm trying to make a pioiunt |
| 07:11.51 | raster | why does it HAVE to be based on one |
| 07:11.57 | goodwill | it does not |
| 07:11.58 | raster | why do you HAVE to limit yourself to 1 toolkit |
| 07:12.05 | goodwill | all I am askign is what the main focus now? |
| 07:12.05 | raster | why do you HAVE to put up boundaries and walls? |
| 07:12.09 | goodwill | to have it qutopia based? |
| 07:12.16 | raster | main focus is python and dbus |
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| 07:13.26 | goodwill | ok |
| 07:13.26 | balrog-kun | well it's visually a bit messy using different toolkits in the same desktop |
| 07:13.35 | goodwill | raster: what balrog-kun said |
| 07:13.41 | *** part/#openmoko Infinyte (n=Infinyte@66-146-251-206.gtmc.net) |
| 07:13.50 | goodwill | raster: is asu qutopia based? |
| 07:13.51 | *** part/#openmoko baird (n=cbaird@brushtail.apana.org.au) |
| 07:13.51 | balrog-kun | but it's all up to the user |
| 07:13.59 | raster | we'd better get rid of opengl then |
| 07:14.02 | raster | geez |
| 07:14.07 | raster | we must use only gtk |
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| 07:14.15 | zash | NO! |
| 07:14.20 | methril | hahaha |
| 07:14.22 | zash | we must only use ncurses! |
| 07:14.24 | raster | i'm making a point |
| 07:14.27 | doc|home | oh! can I start a flamewar too? |
| 07:14.28 | methril | everyone has his preferences |
| 07:14.36 | doc|home | hmmm |
| 07:14.41 | doc|home | we should have more closed source stuff |
| 07:14.43 | methril | of course doc|home!! := |
| 07:14.45 | raster | stop thinking that the world must focus and limit itself to 1 toolkiit |
| 07:14.45 | doc|home | just so we can have 3d games |
| 07:14.48 | raster | to do everything with |
| 07:14.51 | doc|home | very important these days |
| 07:14.57 | goodwill | what point? I am merely trying to understand what tookit is the main interface using |
| 07:15.01 | doc|home | wants crysis on his phone |
| 07:15.17 | goodwill | sure gnome can use QT, but its main toolkit is gtk_ |
| 07:15.20 | goodwill | gtk+ |
| 07:15.27 | raster | different things use different toolkits |
| 07:15.34 | raster | the qtopisa phone apps use qt - guess why? |
| 07:15.44 | raster | theres a config app - and it uses python + efl |
| 07:15.45 | balrog-kun | wants 3DStudio Max R6 and Maya on his |
| 07:15.54 | doc|home | balrog-kun: hah |
| 07:15.59 | raster | theres a package installer that is in c + efl |
| 07:16.09 | doc|home | we could use the accelerometers to rotate the model! |
| 07:16.11 | raster | there's nothing on there using gtk by default currently |
| 07:16.19 | doc|home | actually, that's a pretty cool idea :o |
| 07:16.25 | goodwill | schizophrenia? |
| 07:16.37 | balrog-kun | doc|home: yes! and when someone rings.. something else would happen with the model :p |
| 07:16.41 | raster | no one WANTS to use qt inside of OM |
| 07:16.44 | raster | well no enigneering do |
| 07:16.51 | raster | its there because management wanted to use qtopia |
| 07:16.56 | goodwill | ah |
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| 07:17.06 | raster | u're lucky we didnt just dump x11 and everything and go raw qtopia + aws |
| 07:17.07 | doc|home | balrog-kun: if it's a face it should adopt a surprised look and have a speech bubble that reads "hey, look, the phone is working, weird!" |
| 07:17.13 | raster | trhen u would only have qtopia apps and nothing else |
| 07:17.21 | zash | doc|home: http://phun.cs.umu.se/wiki |
| 07:17.34 | raster | you're not going to change anything by suggesting anything here |
| 07:17.36 | balrog-kun | hah |
| 07:17.50 | goodwill | raster: ripping into me does not help anything either |
| 07:18.03 | doc|home | zash: cool, but old, I've had something similar to that on my n800 for months :) |
| 07:18.23 | raster | goodwill: i'm trying to stop this attitude of "my god! you didnt align with 1 toolkit! you must be idiots" attitude |
| 07:18.33 | raster | or as if just bncause we use more than 1 suddenly we "change direction" |
| 07:18.34 | raster | its wrong |
| 07:18.49 | raster | different apps use different toolkits - because the authros WANT TO |
| 07:18.52 | goodwill | raster: I never said that. All I asked is what is the main set up using now |
| 07:18.57 | balrog-kun | well, to be honest there was a bit of direction change |
| 07:19.00 | raster | progammers will ALWAYS have their too,lkits of chice |
| 07:19.03 | raster | because they like it |
| 07:19.10 | raster | or becuase it does something better than other toolkits |
| 07:19.12 | raster | same as languages |
| 07:19.20 | goodwill | raster: sorry if I hit a sore spot |
| 07:19.22 | raster | should we now write everything in 1 language only? |
| 07:19.28 | raster | lets drop c and c++ |
| 07:19.31 | raster | do everythjing 100% in java |
| 07:19.33 | zash | yes, assembler! |
| 07:19.36 | goodwill | raster: I was just trying understand the current situation |
| 07:19.37 | balrog-kun | the gtk stack stopped being maintained |
| 07:19.39 | raster | of wait no - java';s not trendy anymore |
| 07:19.44 | raster | lets to it all in python! yes! |
| 07:19.47 | balrog-kun | but that's the management decision |
| 07:19.56 | *** join/#openmoko emonkey (n=emonkey@static-pro-212-101-27-121.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 07:20.07 | raster | fact is development will happen in multipl languagese |
| 07:20.09 | raster | and multiple toolkits |
| 07:20.12 | raster | thats life |
| 07:20.15 | raster | it has been for decades |
| 07:20.18 | raster | and will continue to be |
| 07:20.24 | raster | toolkits is the same |
| 07:21.35 | raster | the point of making interfaces to access features via dbus |
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| 07:21.47 | raster | is that u have a common high-level access protocol (dbus) to do things |
| 07:21.50 | goodwill | which is a good approach I'd say |
| 07:21.59 | raster | you then can c hoose whatever language, toolkkit or whatever that tickles your fancy |
| 07:22.01 | goodwill | but before you saying that, I had no idea that was the case |
| 07:22.10 | goodwill | continue to rant though ;) |
| 07:22.16 | raster | but right now we dont have much of that |
| 07:22.27 | raster | because we are busy creating pixel-perfect reditions of designers ideas |
| 07:22.41 | raster | if u must have a common toolkit - it's x11 |
| 07:22.45 | raster | as it doesnt define policy |
| 07:22.51 | raster | just mechanism by whihc to share a display |
| 07:23.47 | goodwill | raster: thank you for the information |
| 07:24.12 | goodwill | I think dbus approach kicks ass |
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| 07:27.46 | goodwill | balrog-kun: so to summarize...it seem OM management decided to go with Qutopia as a shortcut. Where is dev wants to now run dbus interfaces to create api. seems correct? |
| 07:27.54 | *** join/#openmoko cekay (n=christia@gate.tarent.de) |
| 07:30.11 | mudyc | raster: " pixel-perfect reditions of designers ideas" - so you have a visual designer in OM? |
| 07:31.24 | cekay | hey guys.. has anyone tried to record from gta02's internal microphone? |
| 07:31.35 | cekay | i'm trying to find the correct mixer settings |
| 07:32.02 | mmontour | cekay: I've done it on gta01 |
| 07:32.35 | balrog-kun | goodwill: yea, more or less |
| 07:32.37 | raster | mudyc: we have people who show us flash demos and ask fo them to be implemented pixel-perfectly |
| 07:32.45 | cekay | so it should theoratically work :) |
| 07:33.08 | balrog-kun | i hope not all developers want to use python in OM :) |
| 07:33.28 | goodwill | raster: that sucks...I recently had rip one up to pieces for doing exactly taht |
| 07:33.47 | goodwill | balrog-kun: python would kill all the ramn on that poor phone |
| 07:33.49 | *** join/#openmoko a_thing (n=notroot@libervis/athing) |
| 07:35.24 | zash | raster: sounds bad |
| 07:36.06 | balrog-kun | the result isn't all that bad |
| 07:36.34 | zash | implementing from flash demos? |
| 07:36.45 | mmontour | cekay: take a look at http://members.shaw.ca/mmontour/neo/rec.state as a starting point. It's intended to record both sides of a GSM call (incoming on one channel, outgoing on the other). |
| 07:37.04 | cekay | ah thanks mmontour |
| 07:37.13 | cekay | that's for the gta01? |
| 07:37.15 | mudyc | goodwill: do you have any statistics that you can base your argument? |
| 07:37.18 | goodwill | is there a usb carcharge out there for neo |
| 07:37.30 | balrog-kun | zash: the one in asu, now that i remember there was a flash mockup some time earlier |
| 07:37.37 | mmontour | Yes, gta01. |
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| 07:37.45 | cekay | cool |
| 07:38.29 | goodwill | mudyc: well I am basing that on seeing people write python application crappily |
| 07:38.49 | goodwill | mudyc: its just easier to do in python |
| 07:39.01 | goodwill | to write badly designed apps |
| 07:40.29 | mudyc | goodwill: well, that means no |
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| 07:41.35 | goodwill | mudyc: whats your point? |
| 07:42.37 | goodwill | mudyc: for example people doing imports left and right in python can easily bloat up the footprint |
| 07:43.20 | mudyc | goodwill: anyone can share their opinions but your opinion was formed as an statement of language x being memory hungry with no arguments |
| 07:44.09 | goodwill | mudyc: I was not writing a article. It was a sentence |
| 07:45.19 | goodwill | mudyc: people think python garbage collector does it all. barely anyone uses PySizer or hell even pychecker to check for basic inefficiencies. |
| 07:46.21 | goodwill | mudyc: you get a lot more shmucks in python liek that cause the language is easy |
| 07:46.36 | goodwill | mudyc: a good developer will write good code regardless of the language |
| 07:47.11 | goodwill | mudyc: anyhow that's just my opinion, I can be totally wrong |
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| 07:47.48 | mudyc | goodwill: yep. anyway, i was actually interested in a tool to actually measure the memory usage |
| 07:48.50 | goodwill | mudyc: there is a good article I read a while back, taught me a lot....lets see |
| 07:49.28 | goodwill | mudyc: http://wingolog.org/archives/2007/11/27/reducing-the-footprint-of-python-applications |
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| 07:50.18 | goodwill | mudyc: using gc will help too |
| 07:52.44 | goodwill | mudyc: also this: http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/ |
| 07:52.56 | goodwill | never used it, but I am goign to try at some point |
| 07:53.18 | mudyc | goodwill: thanks. seems to be usefull |
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| 07:53.59 | goodwill | mudyc: no problem |
| 07:54.13 | raster | goodwill: they hand over flash demos and want to see them implemented as-per the demo |
| 07:54.36 | raster | zash: thats how its working. for better or for worse |
| 07:54.52 | goodwill | raster: asinine!!! so asinine!! I am sorry dude |
| 07:55.20 | raster | the asu image is basically us implemented the flash demo. |
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| 07:56.29 | goodwill | raster: you guys do good work, I am very impressed |
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| 07:58.16 | raster | we do the best we can |
| 07:58.17 | raster | :) |
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| 07:58.22 | goodwill | :) |
| 07:58.38 | goodwill | dbus is an excellent approach in my mind |
| 07:59.13 | raster | if done right |
| 07:59.21 | raster | its good for gluing things together |
| 07:59.51 | goodwill | yup |
| 08:00.03 | raster | python is fine when perfromance is not relevant |
| 08:00.12 | raster | and when the python is kept to the hihgest levels of logic |
| 08:00.16 | raster | ie - much like dbus - it's glue |
| 08:01.02 | goodwill | raster: true...true |
| 08:04.20 | mudyc | dbus is horrible to debug and the implementations has pitfalls |
| 08:04.52 | raster | like any form of ipc |
| 08:05.07 | raster | it is painful to debug as control exits that of the debugging tools |
| 08:05.12 | raster | offto another process |
| 08:06.40 | goodwill | mudyc: whats a better alternative? |
| 08:06.53 | goodwill | mudyc: something nicely decoupled |
| 08:08.47 | raster | for ipc u can do anything |
| 08:08.50 | raster | roll your own |
| 08:09.01 | mudyc | goodwill: better alternative to what? i think dbus is good enough. for example dbus-monitor is many times useless when working with system bus (debug problems) |
| 08:09.14 | raster | dbus is just a packetisation format |
| 08:09.35 | raster | with a data encoding scheme |
| 08:09.42 | goodwill | mudyc: dbus-monitor is no good at all...as I recall |
| 08:09.51 | raster | and defined sockets with parent server process to route messages |
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| 08:13.37 | mudyc | and my experience with python dbus bindings, gobject dbus bindings (C) and plain dbus api (C) is that plain dbus api is the best implementation. other implementations seem to have weird stuff how they are used and it also depends if you are working on the "server" or "client" side. |
| 08:15.03 | mudyc | and the document which says the "dbus - good practices for daily usage" does not exist |
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| 08:21.12 | goodwill | misses python |
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| 08:38.01 | TRIsoft | morning |
| 08:38.27 | raster | mudyc: i sticl to dbus from libdbus and in c. i do not wish to foul my fingers with other religions.. err.. i mean languages :) |
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| 08:53.16 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * rcb548cc96ea4 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade xglamo, it got a fix for extended keycodes. |
| 08:53.31 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 09:02.54 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * rc4ad5b97f18b 10/packages/connman/connman_git.bb: [connman] Make sure that connman gets started, do that after dbus is running |
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| 09:09.38 | zlfita | mornin |
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| 10:17.19 | CIA-45 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * r7ca1b037b35f 10/odeviced/src/plugins/wifi/wifi.c: Fix segfault while loading wifi plugin in the Freerunner |
| 10:17.19 | CIA-45 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * r1c21ec5e46ae 10/odeviced/Makefile.am: Don't install the init script |
| 10:17.20 | CIA-45 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * rc4a41a8353c2 10/odeviced/recipes/odeviced_git.bb: Recipe works now |
| 10:17.21 | CIA-45 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * rb76d59b75f1b 10/odeviced/src/plugins/power/ (power.c power.vala): GetEnergyPercentage: read from capacity if it is present |
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| 10:28.27 | ali1234 | wow. openmoko is running on my htc wizard! |
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| 10:32.49 | zlfita | great |
| 10:32.59 | t_s_o | ugh, no fun reading mobile phone news online. most pages i have found are so usa centric its not even fun... |
| 10:34.41 | ali1234 | i'm using linwizard kernel. i extracted the openmoko jffs2 rootfs image onto an SD card formatted with ext2, and booted it from windows mobile with haret. |
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| 10:52.36 | CVirus | FSO includes qtopia / |
| 10:52.36 | CVirus | ? |
| 10:53.04 | Sup3rkiddo | nope |
| 10:53.14 | Sup3rkiddo | python and efl |
| 10:53.28 | CVirus | !! |
| 10:53.34 | CVirus | I thought we moved to Qtopia already ? |
| 10:53.51 | CVirus | ASU ? |
| 10:54.07 | Sup3rkiddo | currently its just a reference implementatation |
| 10:54.14 | CVirus | I don't get it |
| 10:54.20 | Sup3rkiddo | CVirus, yeah ASU uses qtopia on x11 |
| 10:54.27 | Sup3rkiddo | FSO images are different |
| 10:54.40 | CVirus | why are the developers working in 2 different pathes ? |
| 10:55.17 | Sup3rkiddo | you mean fso? |
| 10:55.32 | CVirus | FSO and ASU |
| 10:55.32 | Sup3rkiddo | its just a framework for others to pick up |
| 10:55.47 | Sup3rkiddo | i guess ASU would use FSO once its done |
| 10:56.00 | CVirus | ahhh |
| 10:56.02 | CVirus | now I get it |
| 10:56.11 | CVirus | what does FSO stand for ? |
| 10:56.38 | Sup3rkiddo | freesmartphone.org |
| 10:57.58 | CVirus | thanks |
| 10:58.09 | Sup3rkiddo | CVirus, http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/05/05/openmoko-framework-initiative/ |
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| 11:28.05 | noon | hello |
| 11:28.36 | noon | i have a problem building openmoko for my pc. |
| 11:29.22 | noon | i use the mokomakefile to build like it is descript in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr |
| 11:29.57 | noon | the error i get is: | /home/moko/build/tmp/staging/i486-angstrom-linux/usr/lib/libecore_con.so: undefined reference to `curl_easy_setopt@CURL_OPENSSL_3' |
| 11:30.32 | noon | and lot motr of thr undefined refrenece stuff with *@CURL_OPENSSL_3 |
| 11:30.59 | noon | the package that fails is edje |
| 11:31.11 | noon | does somebody know how to fix this? |
| 11:35.29 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03julian_chu 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * r0a3d0b0cf904 10/packages/openmoko-projects/exposure_svn.bb: [exposure] Marek needs python-edbus for exposure. |
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| 11:39.26 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * r758f39146203 10/packages/qtopia-phone/qtopia-phone-x11_git.bb: [qtopia] Use the gcc options that Trolltech might used for their gta01 build |
| 11:39.27 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * r5f878534e0f3 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade exposure, getting more close to a usable version again |
| 11:44.32 | `pwgen` | noon: maybe take a look at http://oe.linuxtogo.org/wiki/GettingStarted: if oe build works, openmoko build should also work |
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| 11:54.57 | mickeyl | `pwgen`: SD seems to be a kernel problem |
| 11:55.10 | mickeyl | my FSO image mounts the SD that comes with the FreeRunner fine |
| 11:55.18 | mickeyl | however it does _not_ mount the SD that came with the 1973 |
| 11:55.30 | mickeyl | so I suspect upstream or our patches containing a bug |
| 11:55.36 | mickeyl | not the fso-image though |
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| 11:58.28 | cekay | hey guys.. has anyone tried to record from gta02's internal microphone and has the correct mixer settings? |
| 11:58.51 | mwester-trip | sean reported some sd-card issues on the kernel list recently; I wonder if that is the same thing? |
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| 12:02.54 | `pwgen` | mickeyl: what is the name of the bb file, that had to used in gta01 kernel build for fso image, linux-openmoko-2.6.24_git ? |
| 12:03.35 | mickeyl | milestone1 contains linux-openmoko-devel_git.bb |
| 12:04.46 | `pwgen` | cekay: mmontour has created last nige a statefile http://members.shaw.ca/mmontour/neo/rec.state |
| 12:05.00 | `pwgen` | s/nige/night/ |
| 12:05.25 | cekay | yup, .. he told me. but it's for gta01 |
| 12:05.51 | cekay | i was wondering if someone did that for gta02 already |
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| 12:06.50 | `pwgen` | mickeyl: ahhh, ill try some kernel builds this night to figure out the problem with the sd card, when i not at work |
| 12:07.16 | mickeyl | ok, cool |
| 12:07.22 | mickeyl | it's the andy branch i used |
| 12:07.26 | mickeyl | perhaps it's better in stable? |
| 12:07.42 | `pwgen` | ( office, job, work ) - here i have limited time and access to my build system .. |
| 12:07.45 | mickeyl | it's not completely broken, just doesn't work with some cards |
| 12:07.50 | mickeyl | sure |
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| 12:08.54 | `pwgen` | i had some ( maybe identical card , same distributor/size ) , one could be read by moko , the other not .. |
| 12:09.46 | `pwgen` | mickeyl: whats the andy branch ? |
| 12:09.57 | mickeyl | andy's kernel branch |
| 12:10.05 | mickeyl | git.openmoko.org -> branches -> andy |
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| 12:12.58 | `pwgen` | mickeyl: the stuff from andy_green , right ? |
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| 12:13.29 | mickeyl | yes |
| 12:13.35 | mwester-trip | nah - Andy Kauffman -- it's the humor branch! |
| 12:13.40 | mickeyl | heh |
| 12:15.17 | `pwgen` | ahh, i understand now why my kernel images alway had problems with resume/suspend .. he is doing a lot of work for openmoko-kernels . |
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| 12:16.05 | `pwgen` | linux-openmoko-devel_git.bb will build a kernel based on his work, thats right ? |
| 12:16.10 | mwester-trip | mickeyl: BTW, the fail-safe stuff that attempts to "automagically" avoid the overruns on the GTA01 was removed, so kernels based on the -andy branch recently can be expected to behave rather worst on the GTA01 until the odeviced understands how to hold off the GSM itself. Just FYI. |
| 12:17.23 | Sup3rkiddo | mickeyl, hi, are you responsible for the vala recipe?...if yes, fyi,..its rather old...i have changed it to fetch 0.3.3 and it works without issues |
| 12:17.33 | Sup3rkiddo | ooops..wrong channel |
| 12:17.44 | mickeyl | mwester-trip: what exactly do i need to do on suspend/resume w/ gsm? i'll add it in, then |
| 12:18.24 | mickeyl | Sup3rkiddo: yes i am. i did not have a chance to update yet, since i didn't have time updating moko-terminal to the new syntax. i'll give it a go when i have a chance |
| 12:18.49 | Sup3rkiddo | cool... |
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| 12:21.40 | mwester-trip | mickeyl: Write "1" to /sys/devices/.../neo1973_pm_gsm/flowcontrolled after the final communication with the GSM is complete when preparing to suspend, then write "0" to the same sysfs file as soon as the device resumes and is ready to talk to the GSM. |
| 12:22.00 | mickeyl | ah, that's easy |
| 12:22.03 | mickeyl | thanks |
| 12:22.14 | mickeyl | will this device node be present on both 01 and 02? |
| 12:22.19 | mwester-trip | Yes. |
| 12:22.30 | mickeyl | excellent. will add this to the device specific code asap |
| 12:22.32 | mwester-trip | And it behaves the same on both, now. |
| 12:23.46 | mickeyl | ok |
| 12:23.51 | mickeyl | while we're talking URAT |
| 12:23.53 | mickeyl | UART, even |
| 12:24.16 | mickeyl | multiple processes can talk to one tty at once, right? |
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| 12:24.28 | mickeyl | but only one process actually receives the answers |
| 12:24.32 | mickeyl | how is that determined? |
| 12:24.40 | mickeyl | is it the last one that opened it for reading? |
| 12:24.50 | mickeyl | and if that one closes, will the previous one get answers then? |
| 12:25.26 | mickeyl | feel free to point me to a tty introduction, i'd like to read one that answer all that, but did not really find something good |
| 12:27.14 | mickeyl | of course my real interest is pty's |
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| 12:29.27 | mwester-trip | Yes, multiple processes can open a tty, and send to it. AFAIK it is non-deterministic as to who gets the rx data -- if both are reading, I think the data will be split between the two. |
| 12:30.17 | mwester-trip | I'll search about to see if I have any current references; my info on this goes back to when SunOS was the *nix of choice... :( |
| 12:30.23 | mickeyl | hehe |
| 12:30.34 | mwester-trip | (But I have to go off to work now, I'll be back later) |
| 12:30.38 | mickeyl | k, cu |
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| 12:33.15 | balrog-kun | i think you should just try to avoid a situation where two fd's are the same tty |
| 12:33.24 | balrog-kun | in one process or in separate processes |
| 12:33.42 | mickeyl | hmm |
| 12:33.43 | mickeyl | well |
| 12:33.49 | mickeyl | i'm thinking about a way to deal with ppp |
| 12:34.02 | mickeyl | i'd like to take over the complete init until CONNECT |
| 12:34.06 | mickeyl | and then hand over to pp |
| 12:34.18 | balrog-kun | ah, hmmm |
| 12:34.26 | mickeyl | however since my pty will disappear once i close the channel (MUXed line) |
| 12:34.28 | mickeyl | i need to keep it open |
| 12:34.40 | mickeyl | and think about seamless handover |
| 12:34.45 | `pwgen` | cool lets port opensolaris to openmoko to get the tty working (;-)) |
| 12:35.09 | balrog-kun | you should probably have a specific pppd plugin, |
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| 12:35.38 | lukhas | hello |
| 12:35.41 | balrog-kun | or your daemon should open the pty, talk to it and when it's ready, create a new pty and let pppd talk to it |
| 12:35.52 | balrog-kun | forwarding data between them |
| 12:36.11 | mickeyl | oh! that's an interesting approach |
| 12:36.29 | mickeyl | so i have a chance to intercept stuff |
| 12:36.32 | mickeyl | i like that |
| 12:36.47 | balrog-kun | yeah, but on the other hand that's yet more rounds for the data between modem and kernel |
| 12:37.56 | mickeyl | ya, it is for sure, but since we need to handle all the cases where you have gprs on one line and have to handover when a voice call comes in (without closing gprs), i don't see a lot of other chances |
| 12:38.08 | mickeyl | at least for devices that can not simultaneously gprs and voice call |
| 12:39.18 | `pwgen` | is this possible setting ppp on hold, doing voice calls, and getting ppp back ? |
| 12:39.26 | mickeyl | yes |
| 12:39.32 | mickeyl | but this needs a bit of clever logic |
| 12:39.48 | balrog-kun | it goes to kernel from modem, then through line discipline to the tty, then to the muxer, then gets written to the pty master, goes through a line discipline again to pty, gets read, gets written to another pty master, through line discipline to the pty and then back to the kernel to decode pty and make a net interface |
| 12:40.14 | mickeyl | ya, it's a bit scary i know :) |
| 12:40.17 | mickeyl | well |
| 12:40.25 | `pwgen` | i thought there were problems, cause gprs and voice calls are diffrent operational modes for the gsm-modem |
| 12:40.26 | mickeyl | the other option is to teach ppp some more tricks |
| 12:40.31 | balrog-kun | err, s/pty/ppp/ |
| 12:40.48 | balrog-kun | mickeyl: this may be a better idea i think |
| 12:40.53 | mickeyl | how complicated is ppp anyways? |
| 12:40.53 | balrog-kun | it has a nice plugins interface |
| 12:41.06 | mickeyl | looks there's just one implementation available, which is rare in oss land |
| 12:41.34 | balrog-kun | yeah strange, i don't know though |
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| 12:42.34 | mickeyl | ok, well, i first try to get it working at all, before pondering about more complicated case |
| 12:42.35 | mickeyl | s |
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| 12:43.27 | balrog-kun | hmmm, on the other hand..... |
| 12:43.33 | mickeyl | yas? |
| 12:43.39 | balrog-kun | pppd doesn't really do much, mostly the authentication stuff |
| 12:43.50 | balrog-kun | the decoding and encoding and stuff are done in the kernel |
| 12:44.11 | balrog-kun | it might make sense to write your own little pppd instead (which would be same as making a plugin for pppd) |
| 12:44.20 | mickeyl | yeah |
| 12:44.22 | mickeyl | that's what i was thinking |
| 12:47.24 | mickeyl | unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a minimal implementation around |
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| 12:55.41 | opendeep | In creating a package in moko , I got do_install error ,compilation is success full then I changed source files and changed setup-env, then I make the package again but It skips compilation phase |
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| 13:01.34 | opendeep | Any one help me |
| 13:04.54 | `pwgen` | ppp does handschake protocols for communicaton stack, i think its not so easy to write an stable 'buugless' pppd |
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| 13:33.09 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r7349495a3f5d 10/packages/qtopia-phone/qtopia-phone-x11_git.bb: [qtopia] Remove -debug from the build and hope things get faster |
| 13:33.10 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * rb71ead40febb 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade kernel to get the a6k netdev fix |
| 13:33.11 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r8cfbd97333ed 10/packages/xorg-xserver/xserver-kdrive-glamo_1.3.0.0+git.bb: [glamo] Update the origin of glamo, now hosted on git.openmoko.org |
| 13:33.11 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r0829af699f46 10/ (2 files in 2 dirs): [glamo] Put OE patches "upstream" and additonal keyboard fixes |
| 13:33.14 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03raster 07org.openmoko.dev * r83e1056b4a96 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: illume update - new hold to shutdown config and using e features as well as |
| 13:33.17 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03raster 07org.openmoko.dev * ra81a516677e6 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcdates.inc: efl update to make sure illume updates work |
| 13:33.20 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03julian_chu 07org.openmoko.dev * rafe1721035e2 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [opkg] Bump up the reversion of opkg, opkg-native, opkg-sdk to 4491 |
| 13:33.23 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r466501466e7a 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade Qtopia to get qLog changes and be able to set the time |
| 13:33.26 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * ra43fdcccb861 10/packages/dbus/ (dbus-1.0.3/fedora-compile-fix.patch dbus-native_1.0.3.bb): Compile with recent glibc,gcc,headers (e.g. fedora 9) Add a patch to dbus to properly compile on fedora 9. |
| 13:33.32 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r4150cc00c0a4 10/packages/ipkg-utils/ (3 files in 2 dirs): |
| 13:33.35 | CIA-45 | openmoko: Make it work on fedora 9. "control.tar.gz" got listed as "`control.tar.gz" The |
| 13:33.37 | CIA-45 | openmoko: root cause is somewhere else in the parser. So this is a workaround that will |
| 13:33.39 | CIA-45 | openmoko: help to find the right file. opkg on the device should use the proper ar |
| 13:33.41 | CIA-45 | openmoko: executable and that should be able to extract the right files. |
| 13:33.45 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03mwester 07org.openmoko.dev * rcdb0884e057f 10/packages/ipkg-utils/ (3 files in 2 dirs): ipkg-utils: fix ipk (ar) file processing to handle odd-length data blocks. |
| 13:33.48 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r603da2de15ff 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade exposure to get faster startup speed |
| 13:33.51 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r519c9ad31ee2 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] We want the experimental callhandling fixes from Qtopia |
| 13:33.56 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * re8bbe3f1d5c7 10/ (2 files in 2 dirs): [srcrev] Upgrade exposure to be launchable again |
| 13:33.59 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * rc78722a8ad7d 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Build a Qtopia version with Theme performance improvements |
| 13:34.02 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03raster 07org.openmoko.dev * rfef631fb0c8a 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: update config to make use of aux ANd power as desired and enable lock screen |
| 13:34.07 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * red00a6094649 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade xglamo, it got a fix for extended keycodes. |
| 13:34.10 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r9328b3420f00 10/packages/connman/connman_git.bb: [connman] Make sure that connman gets started, do that after dbus is running |
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| 15:11.30 | Jabka | what do i need to do to get rid of : "ls: cannot access ../build/qemu/uImage-2.6.*-om-gta01.bin: No such file or directory" |
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| 15:11.50 | Jabka | i tried make qemu , make qtopia-x11 but it didn't mad any diffrence |
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| 15:43.22 | CIA-45 | freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07zhone * r28cd6e7c4509 10/src/zhone: zhone: Fixed bug where transition_to was called on the wrong object |
| 15:48.02 | CIA-45 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07zhone * r618a0b1e7abd 10/src/zhone: zhone: catch up with framework dbus bus name changes |
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| 16:04.24 | CIA-45 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * rb52aefb934ce 10/framework/ (3 files in 3 dirs): odeviced: fix bug in info module |
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| 16:12.16 | Sup3rkiddo | hmm, if anyone has tested zhone, does the battery indicator show status immediately or does it take a while? |
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| 16:12.35 | josch | Sup3rkiddo, immediately |
| 16:12.57 | Sup3rkiddo | josch, thanks... |
| 16:13.41 | alphaone | Sup3rkiddo: Was fixed lately |
| 16:13.46 | alphaone | commit 317d58d95cee88ba953295f4068cdb2c92508a88 |
| 16:13.46 | alphaone | Author: Daniel Willmann <daniel@totalueberwachung.de> |
| 16:13.46 | alphaone | Date: Sun Jun 22 16:58:58 2008 +0200 |
| 16:13.46 | alphaone | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:14.20 | Sup3rkiddo | alphaone, well, i am running the latest code, but its running the other odeviced |
| 16:14.34 | alphaone | hmm, okay |
| 16:14.35 | Sup3rkiddo | so i was wondering if i am the one at fault |
| 16:14.44 | Sup3rkiddo | but atleast it works :D |
| 16:14.53 | alphaone | Sup3rkiddo: cool |
| 16:15.04 | josch | oh ups I updated two days ago ^^ |
| 16:15.20 | Sup3rkiddo | summatusmentis, yo |
| 16:15.26 | josch | lol |
| 16:15.27 | Sup3rkiddo | bye |
| 16:15.34 | josch | Sup3rkiddo, you scared him away! |
| 16:15.36 | Sup3rkiddo | he is scared of me :( |
| 16:15.49 | Sup3rkiddo | is a nice guy |
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| 16:19.38 | CIA-45 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * rfd28dddfa743 10/odeviced/recipes/odeviced_git.bb: Add CONFLICTS and fetch sources from git.fs.o |
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| 16:31.26 | summatusmentis | Sup3rkiddo: hey, sorry, was making lunch |
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| 16:36.15 | wurp2|away | I didn't see any battery indicator on zhone... |
| 16:36.51 | wurp2 | Nor a network indicator, nor a signal strength indicator |
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| 16:38.32 | wurp2 | And when I tried to access dbus from python, dbus.SessionBus() returned some weird error like "AutoRun requires X11, and module was compiled without X11 support" |
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| 16:46.08 | wurp2 | Sup3rkiddo: where is the battery indicator? |
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| 16:51.03 | faern | anyone here good with glp/copyleft licenses? If I write a python binding for a c library licensed under gpl. can I then license my bindings as whatever I want or does it count as a "derived work"? |
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| 16:51.37 | SpeedEvil | You want ##bondage. |
| 16:52.06 | Sup3rkiddo | wurp2, top right :P?..sorry, which battery indicator? |
| 16:52.31 | SpeedEvil | As I understand it, you would have to license your code GPL. |
| 16:52.42 | SpeedEvil | Not LGPL. |
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| 16:53.13 | faern | ok, yeah maybe |
| 16:53.21 | SpeedEvil | is not an expert. |
| 16:53.36 | SpeedEvil | Is there a ##gpl channel? |
| 16:53.47 | SpeedEvil | There is. |
| 16:55.14 | SpeedEvil | Alas, it's only me. |
| 16:56.17 | dcordes_ | XorA|gone: phone works on htckaiser |
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| 16:57.59 | dcordes_ | XorA|gone: i.e. at communication is flawless and audio works just fine |
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| 17:15.54 | Sup3rkiddo | wooooooo |
| 17:15.54 | russellb | wheeeeee |
| 17:15.54 | Sup3rkiddo | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:15.54 | russellb | sad |
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| 17:17.31 | wurp2 | Sup3rkiddo: I guess it's top right - on my zhone install, that was blank most of the time, then briefly was about half full, then was blank again |
| 17:17.31 | wurp2 | What is the top left bar? |
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| 17:17.33 | Sup3rkiddo | wurp2, thats the signal strength |
| 17:17.33 | Sup3rkiddo | wurp2, as alphaone said, its fixed in the later images |
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| 17:18.19 | wurp2 | Sup3rkiddo: OK, thx |
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| 17:20.24 | wurp2 | josch: Do you know what I'm doing wrong re: access to dbus via python in fso? |
| 17:21.00 | wurp2 | import python; session = dbus.SessionBus() seems too simple to screw up... |
| 17:21.12 | mickeyl | our services are on SystemBus |
| 17:21.51 | josch | wurp2, just look it up in the reference implementation |
| 17:22.02 | josch | and mickeyl is right ;) |
| 17:26.58 | Sup3rkiddo | in the freerunner and neo /dev/input/event0 is the aux button..isnt it?...or does it change? |
| 17:27.23 | goodwill | wurp2: quick question. Do you develop using neo/freerunner, qemu or 686 compiled code running under xnested server |
| 17:27.58 | josch | Sup3rkiddo, no it's this buttons |
| 17:28.06 | josch | i once tried to get it to work with evdev |
| 17:28.09 | josch | but failed :( |
| 17:29.25 | Sup3rkiddo | josch, it's this button? |
| 17:29.33 | Sup3rkiddo | i didn get that |
| 17:29.38 | josch | both buttons |
| 17:29.44 | josch | have a look into this source file... |
| 17:29.47 | josch | one moment... |
| 17:29.49 | Sup3rkiddo | sure |
| 17:29.53 | Sup3rkiddo | that would be cool |
| 17:30.31 | josch | Sup3rkiddo, http://svnweb.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/daemons/neod/src/buttonactions.c?rev=4471&view=auto |
| 17:31.13 | Sup3rkiddo | josch, :P, i am supposed to write a replacement for that as my SoC project |
| 17:31.24 | josch | this code opens /dev/input/event%d where %d is from 0 to 10 |
| 17:31.33 | josch | and reads from it |
| 17:31.45 | josch | the keycodes can be seen above |
| 17:31.59 | josch | 169 and 116 |
| 17:32.20 | josch | Sup3rkiddo, i know ;) |
| 17:32.47 | josch | these were just my two cents as i struggled with evdev and this devices |
| 17:32.51 | Sup3rkiddo | josch, i was looking into that |
| 17:32.59 | balrog-kun | in theory you shouldn't assume that some /dev/input/ node is some device, instead you should loop through all these devices and ask them their names |
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| 17:33.20 | Sup3rkiddo | josch, thanks for sharing...so these devices nodes are dependent on the device |
| 17:33.28 | josch | balrog-kun, so this is why they open 10 devices :) |
| 17:33.39 | Sup3rkiddo | balrog-kun, names as in the keys which they stand for |
| 17:33.49 | Sup3rkiddo | i am just beginning to attack the input part |
| 17:34.18 | Sup3rkiddo | cat /dev/input/event%d seems a bad idea |
| 17:34.20 | Sup3rkiddo | :P |
| 17:34.29 | josch | with my kernel/udev combination it's event0 for the keys and event1 for the touchscreen |
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| 17:34.41 | Sup3rkiddo | josch, and where can i get the code for evdev? |
| 17:34.52 | josch | Sup3rkiddo, hexdump /dev/input/event0 is much better |
| 17:34.54 | Sup3rkiddo | josch, aha, |
| 17:34.56 | Sup3rkiddo | yeah |
| 17:35.02 | Sup3rkiddo | just learnt that |
| 17:35.06 | josch | it will print the binary hex equivalent |
| 17:35.28 | balrog-kun | josch: hmm, but this code doesn't check what the devices are |
| 17:35.36 | josch | balrog-kun, right |
| 17:35.37 | wurp2 | goodwill: neo, gta01 |
| 17:35.57 | goodwill | wurp2: thank you |
| 17:36.02 | balrog-kun | there's some ioctl to ask the device's name and it will say something like "GTA01 power button" or something |
| 17:36.09 | balrog-kun | and "s3c2410 touchscree" or similar |
| 17:36.36 | Sup3rkiddo | so is the output of hexdump a standard one?...i mean each column standing for different things |
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| 17:37.04 | josch | Sup3rkiddo, if this were the case evdev might have worked :/ |
| 17:37.16 | Sup3rkiddo | wow |
| 17:37.18 | Sup3rkiddo | i see |
| 17:37.40 | Sup3rkiddo | looks fun :D |
| 17:37.44 | balrog-kun | what's wrong with evdev though? |
| 17:38.02 | josch | well i tried it |
| 17:38.10 | josch | and all i get is either nothing or |
| 17:38.14 | josch | random keycodes |
| 17:38.26 | Sup3rkiddo | question: what is evdev? |
| 17:38.34 | balrog-kun | humm, straneg |
| 17:38.42 | Qwell | Sup3rkiddo: x11 device driver |
| 17:38.47 | josch | an xorg driver to get keyboard/mouse/touch input |
| 17:38.55 | Sup3rkiddo | Qwell, ah thanks |
| 17:39.07 | Sup3rkiddo | event device ? |
| 17:39.10 | Sup3rkiddo | evdev.. |
| 17:39.14 | balrog-kun | it's the X11 driver for evdev :P |
| 17:39.20 | josch | hehe |
| 17:39.23 | balrog-kun | evdev is also the name of the whole /dev/input/ interface |
| 17:39.28 | Sup3rkiddo | aha |
| 17:39.33 | Sup3rkiddo | i am SMART |
| 17:40.26 | Sup3rkiddo | *cricket* *cricket* =( |
| 17:42.02 | Sup3rkiddo | http://www.frogmouth.net/hid-doco/c537.html <--- somehow related? |
| 17:43.31 | balrog-kun | i'd use EVIOCGNAME, if you want to find a particular device |
| 17:43.56 | balrog-kun | or if it's something like neod, it makes sense to listen on all devices |
| 17:46.10 | wurp2 | josch: OK, I check the fso home page, and see a link to reference model, which sends me to a page that includes no info on coding for fso |
| 17:46.29 | josch | hehe |
| 17:46.35 | Sup3rkiddo | i think event2 event3 are for accels |
| 17:46.58 | Sup3rkiddo | wurp2, zhone is written in python...so you might want to check that |
| 17:47.05 | Sup3rkiddo | DBus + python is easy |
| 17:47.06 | josch | wurp2, sry i only can send you to guys like mickeyl, alphaone and shoragan |
| 17:47.11 | josch | :) |
| 17:47.21 | josch | they are the active devs right now |
| 17:47.35 | Sup3rkiddo | so..event2 and event3 are for accels?...since the hexdump seems to dump em constantly |
| 17:47.54 | josch | i had this issue with event0 also |
| 17:47.59 | wurp2 | Sup3rkiddo: Yeah, I know |
| 17:48.07 | wurp2 | (python + dbus is easy) |
| 17:48.11 | josch | so on using evdev it constantly printed random keycodes |
| 17:48.16 | Sup3rkiddo | wurp2, hehe |
| 17:48.25 | wurp2 | That's why I was so surprised when my most basic 2 line python dbus script blew up |
| 17:48.36 | Sup3rkiddo | wurp2, what did it contain? |
| 17:48.42 | wurp2 | I will try it with SystemBus instead of SessionBus |
| 17:48.50 | Sup3rkiddo | wurp2, of course its SystemBus |
| 17:48.54 | Sup3rkiddo | aah |
| 17:48.56 | wurp2 | Sup3rkiddo: import dbus; session = dbus.SessionBus() |
| 17:49.03 | Sup3rkiddo | thats SystemBus() |
| 17:49.05 | wurp2 | Well, I am just exploring the bus |
| 17:49.29 | josch | use systembus ^^ |
| 17:49.37 | wurp2 | And the failure looked like a low level problem with the python dbus code, not "there is no SessionBus" |
| 17:49.44 | Sup3rkiddo | wurp2, you might want to check out d-feet |
| 17:49.52 | Sup3rkiddo | graphical debugger for dbus |
| 17:50.12 | josch | dbus-send does its job too |
| 17:50.15 | wurp2 | Sup3rkiddo: Cool, I will |
| 17:50.27 | wurp2 | I need to look into e_dbus, too - I dunno what that is |
| 17:50.38 | Sup3rkiddo | josch, bleh, you nerd! |
| 17:50.47 | josch | haha |
| 17:50.48 | Sup3rkiddo | wurp2, dbus bindings for EFL |
| 17:51.02 | wurp2 | ah, cool |
| 17:51.18 | josch | integrates very nice with the rest |
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| 17:51.38 | Sup3rkiddo | josch, so anyway, thats strange since event0 in my case seems to dump when i hit aux....so is this numbering based on some act of god? |
| 17:51.57 | josch | Sup3rkiddo, i asked this myself when using evdev :( |
| 17:52.08 | Sup3rkiddo | oh... |
| 17:52.12 | josch | so unfortunatly i have no solution for this |
| 17:52.59 | Sup3rkiddo | josch, hmm, got any links where i can learn more on this? |
| 17:53.12 | josch | hrm... barely but... |
| 17:53.28 | josch | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Kernel#AUX_Button |
| 17:53.39 | josch | and then the neod source |
| 17:53.42 | josch | this was all i had |
| 17:54.44 | Sup3rkiddo | man, strange isn't it...the lower you reach, the lesser the docs |
| 17:55.20 | *** join/#openmoko kdean06 (n=kdean06@70.17.71.113) |
| 17:56.02 | wurp2 | All that code that uses the low level stuff is the docs, man |
| 17:56.32 | josch | hehe |
| 17:56.34 | josch | too true ^^ |
| 17:57.03 | josch | so read the source luke! :P |
| 17:57.11 | Sup3rkiddo | :/ |
| 17:57.34 | *** join/#openmoko apol (n=apol@84.78.178.63) |
| 17:57.37 | Sup3rkiddo | laziness is a virtue..:P |
| 17:57.46 | *** join/#openmoko HellDragon (n=jd@unaffiliated/helldragon) |
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| 18:00.29 | *** join/#openmoko doc|work (n=doc@gentoo/contributor/doc-007) |
| 18:00.41 | doc|work | really, is 28 days really the last word on warranties? |
| 18:01.11 | Qwell | 28 days of hardware warranty? |
| 18:01.13 | xelapond|uf | what? |
| 18:01.25 | xelapond|uf | thats pretty short if you ask me... |
| 18:01.46 | doc|work | indeed |
| 18:01.57 | doc|work | Qwell: 28 days and that's for 10 packs |
| 18:02.10 | doc|work | individual units are 14 days |
| 18:02.11 | Qwell | mmm...yeah |
| 18:06.44 | *** join/#openmoko andrenarchy (n=andrenar@dslb-084-057-074-054.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 18:08.04 | *** join/#openmoko zell1983 (n=zell1983@host250-121-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 18:11.30 | xelapond | ouch |
| 18:11.35 | Sup3rkiddo | josch, behold my uber googling skills, http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6429 |
| 18:11.44 | xelapond | is there an extended plan? |
| 18:12.05 | josch | beholds |
| 18:12.08 | josch | :D |
| 18:13.33 | doc|work | I want to see an event that when you press the aux button, at random, and only very inappropriate times, it flashes up an image from your .stuff folder |
| 18:13.45 | Sup3rkiddo | rofl |
| 18:13.56 | Sup3rkiddo | hey thats a cool idea |
| 18:14.14 | doc|work | the difficult part being determining when's an inappropriate time |
| 18:14.27 | doc|work | "Phone call from: Mum" |
| 18:14.34 | Sup3rkiddo | :P |
| 18:14.38 | doc|work | "Nooooo!" |
| 18:14.55 | Sup3rkiddo | "I am not mad at you...Just disappointed" |
| 18:15.00 | doc|work | hahaha |
| 18:15.20 | doc|work | given I've never brought a woman home to my family, she'd probably be relieved |
| 18:15.23 | Sup3rkiddo | has caused infinite number of disappointments :P |
| 18:15.25 | *** join/#openmoko zeno__ (n=andrew@c-75-70-202-80.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 18:15.35 | doc|work | Sup3rkiddo: nice... tmi :) |
| 18:15.45 | *** join/#openmoko angasule (n=angasule@190.176.197.75) |
| 18:16.53 | Sup3rkiddo | but i wonder where i can get info about the hexdumps....on a green terminal it feels hax0ry |
| 18:17.39 | angasule | I have seen the news about Neo FreeRunner, and I'm wondering if it'll have an SD card slot or the amount of storage is fixed? I'd love it with 8GB :D |
| 18:17.50 | SpeedEvil | microsd |
| 18:18.00 | Sup3rkiddo | angasule, it does have a microSD slot |
| 18:18.07 | angasule | thank you :) |
| 18:18.46 | angasule | does it support SDHC? |
| 18:18.49 | josch | and yes it is 8GB compatible |
| 18:18.50 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 18:19.00 | SpeedEvil | stabs teh stupid SD association. |
| 18:19.05 | angasule | helps SpeedEvil |
| 18:19.18 | SpeedEvil | (they only specify SDHC up to 32G) |
| 18:19.33 | balrog-kun | Sup3rkiddo: i.e the format of the data read from /dev/input/*? |
| 18:19.35 | angasule | oh, so yet another SD acronym will be forthcoming, fun :P |
| 18:19.46 | doc|work | angasule: microsd, not sd |
| 18:19.56 | Sup3rkiddo | balrog-kun, yeah, those columns...obviously they mean something... |
| 18:20.15 | Sup3rkiddo | like by say which area of touchscreen was pressed..can i get that info? |
| 18:20.17 | balrog-kun | Sup3rkiddo: there's some struct type in <linux/input.h>, you just cast the array of bytes to that struct and read the fields |
| 18:20.25 | angasule | doc|work: yes, all I care about is having several GB so I can load all kinds of junk in it |
| 18:20.31 | doc|work | :) |
| 18:20.32 | Sup3rkiddo | balrog-kun, oh ok.... |
| 18:20.39 | balrog-kun | for a screen touch i think you get three such events |
| 18:20.40 | angasule | I'll be back after lunch to annoy you all, hope you don't mind :) |
| 18:20.44 | Sup3rkiddo | balrog-kun, yeah |
| 18:20.45 | balrog-kun | one for X, one for Y and one for pressure |
| 18:21.23 | Sup3rkiddo | i see |
| 18:21.25 | balrog-kun | for a button, only one for press and one for release iirc, and one of the fields is the keycode (the KEY_ defined in input.h) or a coordinate |
| 18:21.34 | Sup3rkiddo | yes...thats what i see |
| 18:21.37 | balrog-kun | *defines |
| 18:21.48 | Sup3rkiddo | i think i should get a kernel book |
| 18:22.02 | balrog-kun | or a set of kernel headers :) |
| 18:22.14 | doc|work | so, is it just me or is 28 days doa a very lame warranty? |
| 18:22.27 | kdean06 | It's probably just you. |
| 18:22.29 | kdean06 | :) |
| 18:22.32 | doc|work | :/ |
| 18:22.44 | Sup3rkiddo | balrog-kun, :), but books make for good bed-time read |
| 18:22.47 | *** part/#openmoko zell1983 (n=zell1983@host250-121-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 18:23.28 | xming | http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS9978560959.html |
| 18:23.38 | balrog-kun | Sup3rkiddo: you mean you kernel headers don't? :P |
| 18:23.39 | xming | so is it out? |
| 18:24.14 | *** join/#openmoko simon_ (n=simon@w208.wist.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 18:24.26 | doc|work | xming: out months now |
| 18:24.31 | doc|work | you're late |
| 18:24.36 | Sup3rkiddo | balrog-kun, na, but books have a charm of their own....i can read it during power cuts |
| 18:24.46 | Sup3rkiddo | which happens regularly this season |
| 18:25.04 | doc|work | Sup3rkiddo: you can see in the dark? |
| 18:25.17 | Sup3rkiddo | doc|home, hey i got candles |
| 18:25.24 | doc|work | has batteries :) |
| 18:25.26 | Sup3rkiddo | and one of those emergency lights |
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| 18:28.23 | kdean06 | I'm actually surprised that got no response yet... |
| 18:28.30 | kdean06 | twiddles his thumbs |
| 18:28.41 | *** join/#openmoko CVirus (n=GoD@82.201.222.33) |
| 18:33.09 | *** join/#openmoko Infinyte (n=Infinyte@66-146-251-206.gtmc.net) |
| 18:33.44 | doc|work | kdean06: which got no response? |
| 18:33.44 | *** part/#openmoko Infinyte (n=Infinyte@66-146-251-206.gtmc.net) |
| 18:34.06 | kdean06 | The months one. |
| 18:34.11 | doc|work | kdean06: and it's ok, I knew what you meant :) |
| 18:34.47 | *** join/#openmoko cheng (n=cheng@xGagB214.WH1.tu-dresden.de) |
| 18:34.50 | doc|work | warranty? |
| 18:35.14 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@85.233.59.8.static.cablesurf.de) |
| 18:35.28 | kdean06 | xming, Linked to a Linux Devices article asking about (I assume) the Freerunner and was told he's late, been out months now. |
| 18:35.34 | doc|work | ah |
| 18:35.40 | doc|work | kdean06: yeah, me too :) |
| 18:35.45 | kdean06 | But explaining that kind of ruined the amusement. :P |
| 18:35.46 | doc|work | (surprised) |
| 18:42.04 | *** join/#openmoko sudharsh_ (n=sudharsh@59.92.40.122) |
| 18:44.18 | xming | kdean06: but it's not where on sale, except that shipment to VIP |
| 18:44.46 | kdean06 | Damn engadget for that one. |
| 18:44.55 | lukhas | I think some shipments left the factory |
| 18:44.55 | *** join/#openmoko bahadunn (n=bahadunn@24.244.172.71) |
| 18:45.06 | xming | really? great |
| 18:45.14 | kdean06 | xming, The latest word thus far is that Freerunner would go on sale in early July. |
| 18:45.23 | kdean06 | So "very soon" now. |
| 18:45.32 | lukhas | that's what I understood from our commercial contact at openmoko |
| 18:45.42 | CVirus | in 9 days |
| 18:45.46 | bahadunn | in the US? |
| 18:45.48 | lukhas | shipments were expected to start this monday |
| 18:45.57 | lukhas | and they apparently did |
| 18:46.00 | kdean06 | And some VERY select groups have been shipped, some University students in China, I think. |
| 18:46.17 | xming | any of working for OM? I am going to .tw for 1 month in a week, hoping to pick one in .tw |
| 18:46.17 | lukhas | yep, but I think they were shipped earlier |
| 18:46.41 | kdean06 | And a handful of early production models went to some people. But they will go on sale for "everyone" in July, assuming nothing messes up. :) |
| 18:46.50 | doc|work | shakes his fist at students |
| 18:46.52 | lukhas | fingers crossed |
| 18:47.24 | bahadunn | kdean06: even in the US? |
| 18:47.36 | kdean06 | bahadunn, From what I understand, yes. |
| 18:47.40 | bahadunn | sweet |
| 18:47.54 | kdean06 | That once the distribution centers have units, the webstore will open for sale. |
| 18:47.57 | kdean06 | Worldwide. |
| 18:48.22 | bahadunn | worldwide has a nice sound to it |
| 18:48.26 | lukhas | :) |
| 18:48.30 | kdean06 | Of course, the data the retailers in europe get them may be different, but that's a different situation. I don't think the US has official resellers. |
| 18:48.51 | lukhas | the US has their Fremont hub |
| 18:49.07 | kdean06 | lukhas, I know they ship from there, but that's still Openmoko and not a reseller. |
| 18:49.14 | lukhas | right |
| 18:49.25 | bahadunn | think it will be available through amazon type sites? |
| 18:49.28 | lukhas | as an European reseller I sure hope to get it around the same time than US :) |
| 18:49.53 | kdean06 | lukhas, Personal opinion... I think you guys may get the advantage. :) |
| 18:49.59 | kdean06 | But only a matter of a few days, if at all. |
| 18:50.06 | xming | lukhas: where are your shop located? |
| 18:50.16 | lukhas | xming: on the Internet :) |
| 18:50.24 | lukhas | Paris, France: bearstech.com/shop |
| 18:50.26 | xming | lukhas: a bit spam now would be nice |
| 18:50.30 | xming | ty |
| 18:50.44 | lukhas | we already started spamming the French press and some geek-oriented sites |
| 18:51.08 | xming | I meant spamming me with an URL :) |
| 18:51.19 | kdean06 | lukhas, As an EU retailer, the retailer, not the manufacturer has to provide a warranty or soemthign? Do I remember that being one of EUs regulatory restriction thingies? |
| 18:51.23 | lukhas | oh, ok |
| 18:51.26 | *** join/#openmoko Kt_ (n=Kirsat@pool-72-91-10-162.tampfl.fios.verizon.net) |
| 18:51.35 | xming | 320 euro ca cout cher |
| 18:51.36 | lukhas | kdean06: yes, we provide a 1-year "commercial warranty" |
| 18:51.52 | kdean06 | My question was more "Do you have to?" |
| 18:51.53 | kdean06 | :) |
| 18:51.54 | lukhas | plus the standard european "2 year conformity warranty" |
| 18:51.58 | lukhas | yes, we have |
| 18:52.01 | Kt_ | Freerunner is being distributed to retailers currently correct? |
| 18:52.03 | lukhas | EU rules, French rules, etc. |
| 18:52.04 | kdean06 | But not Openmoko? |
| 18:52.05 | xming | kdean06: YES he *has* to |
| 18:52.30 | lukhas | not openmoko |
| 18:52.39 | kdean06 | Cause that right there would make a TON of sense why there's EU retailers but no American resellers. |
| 18:52.41 | lukhas | until a French/European buyer sues them |
| 18:52.51 | xming | kdean06: everything sold in EU *HAS* to have at least 1 year, preferably 2 years (or something like that) |
| 18:52.56 | kdean06 | Eww. |
| 18:53.06 | kdean06 | Glad Openmoko decided to do hub distribution then. |
| 18:53.31 | *** join/#openmoko pwerken (n=pwerken@83.119.198.36) |
| 18:53.46 | xming | that why everything in EU is 2x more expensive than US (import tax + VAT + after sales service) |
| 18:54.01 | lukhas | 320 euros is not that expensive, considering you pay around 50 EUR in VAT on this price |
| 18:54.05 | kdean06 | Yeah. Which is why I'm glad. ) |
| 18:54.19 | Kt_ | europe is a funky place |
| 18:54.34 | kdean06 | Selling directly would increase the cost for the entire "pool" of devices. |
| 18:54.42 | xming | lukhas: I know, still I always get shock by the price in EU |
| 18:54.47 | lukhas | yeah, me too |
| 18:54.49 | kdean06 | It's already inflated enough by customs, taxes, tarrifs... |
| 18:55.10 | lukhas | but I calmed down when I noticed that the 399 USD public price of the FR is without taxes |
| 18:55.32 | kdean06 | lukhas, You're American, no? |
| 18:55.41 | lukhas | kdean06: I'm French |
| 18:55.44 | kdean06 | Oh, sorry. |
| 18:55.46 | kdean06 | Duh. :) |
| 18:55.51 | lukhas | I work for Bearstech, the French reseller |
| 18:56.01 | kdean06 | Yeah... I was just asking you about EU retailer rules. :P |
| 18:56.06 | lukhas | yeah :) |
| 19:00.30 | Qwell | http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/25/1751228 |
| 19:00.31 | Qwell | heh |
| 19:00.41 | Qwell | "Mass-market" |
| 19:01.47 | kdean06 | Yeah... |
| 19:02.00 | CVirus | it's not fucken loading |
| 19:02.02 | kdean06 | That term has, IMO, hurt Openmoko's image. |
| 19:02.13 | CVirus | is it alive ? |
| 19:02.15 | CVirus | freerunner is out ?? |
| 19:02.22 | *** join/#openmoko abraxa__ (n=abraxa@pD95FEB29.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:02.29 | CVirus | loaded |
| 19:02.31 | kdean06 | How many people expected "mass market" and "the day it goes for sale" to be the same thing? |
| 19:02.57 | kdean06 | Very few people understood that after the devs get freerunners there will be a while before the device is actually usable. |
| 19:02.57 | Mek | the 4.3" touhcscreen in that summary is also not quite accurate I think? |
| 19:03.10 | Qwell | 2.8", no? |
| 19:03.14 | lukhas | 4.3 ? woah |
| 19:03.20 | CVirus | hehe |
| 19:03.47 | lukhas | and that should be a 400 MHz processor, not a 500 |
| 19:04.01 | CVirus | Why do stupid articles get slashdotted |
| 19:04.15 | Mek | it's a 500 MHz processor running at 400 MHz :P |
| 19:04.53 | lukhas | afk, food |
| 19:05.44 | zlfita | so ÂâE320 is the Frech price? |
| 19:08.04 | zlfita | i saw two german resellers, giving E300 and E300 as the price |
| 19:08.14 | zlfita | E300 and E350 |
| 19:08.59 | doc|work | what retard wrote this summary? |
| 19:09.23 | zlfita | me? |
| 19:09.57 | zlfita | please correct where i am wrong |
| 19:10.58 | doc|work | zlfita: really? 4.3inch screen? 500mhz(it's running at 400mhz)? processor |
| 19:11.26 | doc|work | and it's not selling yet :) |
| 19:11.34 | Qwell | I think linuxdevices.com pulled their article |
| 19:12.24 | doc|work | hmmm |
| 19:12.37 | zlfita | i didn't say anything about the screen |
| 19:12.41 | doc|work | still on their front page |
| 19:12.41 | zlfita | only prices |
| 19:12.49 | Qwell | doc|work: click it |
| 19:12.54 | doc|work | zlfita: hmmm, someone else screwed that up |
| 19:12.58 | doc|work | Qwell: yep |
| 19:13.15 | *** join/#openmoko ericthefish (n=ivan@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 19:13.28 | doc|work | zlfita: apologies for the retard comment :) |
| 19:13.58 | *** part/#openmoko ericthefish (n=ivan@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 19:14.50 | zlfita | doc|work: no prob,maybe you'll be a bit more careful:) |
| 19:14.59 | doc|work | zlfita: maybe you too ;) |
| 19:15.20 | doc|work | passes zlfita a chocolate brownie |
| 19:17.11 | kdean06 | doc|work, Do they make other kinds? |
| 19:17.19 | kdean06 | I love blondies. :) |
| 19:17.24 | kdean06 | But they're not brownies. :) |
| 19:17.31 | zlfita | **yaay brownie! |
| 19:17.32 | doc|work | kdean06: hah |
| 19:18.15 | zlfita | shit, 30th minute and it's 1-1 |
| 19:18.19 | doc|work | they should use brownies for international diplomacy |
| 19:18.26 | zlfita | nice idea |
| 19:18.56 | doc|work | "here, george, have a brownie." "Thanks mr ahma...ahma... bud, so, sorry about those nuke accusations. You know, we need oil." |
| 19:19.30 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
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| 19:24.35 | berkus | guys, slashdot says freerunner is out? http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/25/1751228&from=rss |
| 19:24.41 | *** part/#openmoko bkrus1 (n=bkruse@216.207.245.1) |
| 19:26.57 | SpeedEvil | Store says not. |
| 19:27.12 | zlfita | not out, just shipping to stores |
| 19:27.25 | zlfita | see channel topic |
| 19:27.30 | kdean06 | The article is TECHNICALLY correct. |
| 19:27.40 | kdean06 | It HAS begun shipping to resellers. |
| 19:28.15 | mjr | "mass market" though, *cough* |
| 19:28.15 | kdean06 | But YOU can't buy it yet. First week in July as the mostly-semi-officialish date for the Openmoko store. |
| 19:28.58 | angasule | hmm, the openmoko AGPS doesn't /require/ cell tower support, does it? it just uses it if available? |
| 19:29.15 | zlfita | i wish it it was before 4th |
| 19:29.31 | wurp2 | angasule: To get *A*GPS, you must have some outside source of your approx location |
| 19:29.47 | wurp2 | But I've read suggestions that it might ask for city/state/country if no GSM availalbe |
| 19:29.56 | SpeedEvil | Nope |
| 19:29.57 | wurp2 | and you can always get GPS (no A), it just takes longer |
| 19:30.09 | kdean06 | LMFAO |
| 19:30.10 | SpeedEvil | It can boot from cold with no info |
| 19:30.13 | doc|work | with the ASU will you be able to switch off gsm? |
| 19:30.23 | kdean06 | I love one of the comments, someone saying they've got 5 pounds a month to spend on blah blah... |
| 19:30.33 | kdean06 | Someone responded with "Yes you can use VoIP if you so desire. If you only have £5 though, your money might be better spent on other things." |
| 19:30.34 | angasule | wurp2: ok, but an Assistance Server isn't required? it'll work as GPS anyway? |
| 19:30.41 | doc|work | kdean06: heh |
| 19:30.52 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: AGPS can't boot from cold w/ no info, unless I'm badly misunderstanding |
| 19:30.54 | kdean06 | doc|home, Yes, I think you already can... BUt don't quote me on that... |
| 19:30.56 | wurp2 | angasule: yes |
| 19:31.01 | doc|work | kdean06: cool, thanks |
| 19:31.15 | emdete | the a in gps of the freerunner means you can feed the chip with data about the satelites from outside. this data normaly comes over internet. |
| 19:31.18 | kdean06 | I know for sure there's a button, just not sure if it actually does it. :) |
| 19:31.18 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: you are |
| 19:31.27 | doc|work | hah |
| 19:31.29 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: A |
| 19:31.37 | SpeedEvil | GPS in most implentations is optional. |
| 19:31.43 | angasule | 400 / 5 = 80 / 12 = 6.6 years of not buying bubblegum |
| 19:31.43 | emdete | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:32.00 | mjr | let's repeat that AGPS will work without A another 100 times! |
| 19:32.02 | angasule | cpp; |
| 19:32.05 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: in few do they actually require it. |
| 19:32.13 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: and not in the neo or freerunner |
| 19:32.17 | angasule | err, that was 'cool', not weird c++ |
| 19:32.37 | wurp2 | hrm, are you really using AGPS if you're not assisting it? |
| 19:32.45 | doc|work | angasule: what if you already don't buy bubble gum? :( |
| 19:32.45 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 19:32.57 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGPS |
| 19:33.06 | SpeedEvil | (unless some bastard has vandalised it again) |
| 19:33.07 | angasule | doc|work: then you have to stop buying chocolate |
| 19:33.21 | angasule | vandalises it |
| 19:33.33 | doc|work | angasule: nevar! |
| 19:34.14 | angasule | laughs evily in croatian, which makes it a lot more evil, since we all know slavic laughs are eviller |
| 19:34.36 | angasule | maybe I could sell my sister into slavery and buy a neo :D |
| 19:34.45 | Qwell | angasule: how much? |
| 19:34.55 | Qwell | I guess the price of a neo... |
| 19:34.56 | *** join/#openmoko pvborza (n=paul@79.119.155.27) |
| 19:35.12 | angasule | plus shipping |
| 19:35.14 | *** join/#openmoko LionKMP (n=lion@catv-5985b8e7.catv.broadband.hu) |
| 19:35.19 | Qwell | sister or neo? |
| 19:35.27 | angasule | both, I guess |
| 19:35.29 | angasule | and VAT |
| 19:35.31 | zlfita | angasule: where from? |
| 19:35.51 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: That description looks an awful lot like the position I was arguing from |
| 19:35.53 | angasule | argentina, she's in pretty good condition, I have two sisters, interested? |
| 19:36.15 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: I may have been misunderstanding your position. |
| 19:36.17 | wurp2 | I wasn't aware that it provided orbital data, though... that should be pre-calculable, and already in the GPS software |
| 19:36.21 | angasule | zlfita: I'll teach them dutch, one is blonde like maxima! :P |
| 19:36.28 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: orbits drift over time. |
| 19:36.36 | wurp2 | Well, I was calling it normal GPS if you're not getting assistance |
| 19:36.43 | angasule | wurp2: they are on low orbits |
| 19:36.45 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: rapidly enough that you need to refresh them every week or so at minimum. |
| 19:36.51 | SpeedEvil | angasule: no they're not |
| 19:36.57 | SpeedEvil | angasule: they're halfway to GEO |
| 19:37.01 | SpeedEvil | angasule: 12 hour orbits |
| 19:37.17 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: Wow, I wouldn't have thought there would be anywhere near that amount of unpredictable variance in an orbit... |
| 19:37.43 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: halfway to GEO != 12 hour orbit... |
| 19:37.47 | zlfita | angasule: thanks but i am not dutch |
| 19:37.48 | angasule | SpeedEvil: wow, you're right, I always figured they were below 700 |
| 19:37.53 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: chronologically |
| 19:38.00 | wurp2 | mkay |
| 19:38.12 | angasule | wurp2: 12 hours is still very far from LEO, he is right :) |
| 19:38.33 | SpeedEvil | LEO is 90 miniutes ish. |
| 19:38.46 | SpeedEvil | With your satellite decaying into the atmosphere in a few decades tops. |
| 19:38.56 | angasule | SpeedEvil: #space ? :D |
| 19:39.03 | SpeedEvil | MEO - 12 hours - takes thousands or millions of years. |
| 19:39.24 | angasule | ok, people, you have to be careful with this stuff |
| 19:39.34 | angasule | 'meo' is spanish for 'I piss' |
| 19:39.52 | angasule | 'moko' sounds like spanish 'bugger' (spelt 'moco') |
| 19:40.03 | SpeedEvil | contemplates a satellite constellation companion to OM. |
| 19:40.09 | SpeedEvil | MEOMoko. |
| 19:40.40 | angasule | SpeedEvil: that's disgusting heh |
| 19:40.48 | angasule | I like the name Neo FreeRunner |
| 19:41.37 | SpeedEvil | Moko freerunner. |
| 19:41.43 | kdean06 | moco = booger (just incase it confused anyone) or snot. :) |
| 19:41.44 | SpeedEvil | The fun never ends! |
| 19:41.50 | kdean06 | Snot a bad name! |
| 19:42.01 | angasule | oh, booger |
| 19:42.03 | angasule | yes, snot |
| 19:42.10 | angasule | Open Snot, great name |
| 19:42.18 | kdean06 | That said... IF Openmoko decided to come up with a name that didn't offend SOMEONE it would be called the Wii... |
| 19:42.24 | kdean06 | Oh, wait, that's already being used. |
| 19:42.24 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: your "decaying in decades" looked like it referred to the 12 hour orbit |
| 19:42.30 | SpeedEvil | With the theme-song by Baccara. Yes Sir, I can Bogie. |
| 19:42.41 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: ah - no - LEO only. |
| 19:42.43 | wurp2 | which sounded totally bogus to me, so I've been searching atmospheric densities... I see now that you meant LEO |
| 19:42.59 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: for exaple, ISS will crash in a couple of years if not reboosted. |
| 19:43.20 | wurp2 | I still don't see how a satellite w/ a 12 hour orbit can drift enough in months that you can't know pretty much exactly where it is |
| 19:43.34 | angasule | SpeedEvil: years? much less, I think |
| 19:43.40 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: You don't care about pretty much |
| 19:43.46 | angasule | wurp2: probably perturbing bodies like the moon |
| 19:43.47 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: you care about +-1m |
| 19:43.48 | wurp2 | If you don't have any atmospheric drag, orbits should be permanent |
| 19:44.04 | angasule | wurp2: if the earth were along in the universe, sure |
| 19:44.24 | wurp2 | angasule: That's still just a 2 body problem |
| 19:44.24 | SpeedEvil | angasule: it depends on the point in the cycle where it's reboosted. Reboosts happen every 12 months IIRC normally. |
| 19:44.37 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: it's not that simple. |
| 19:44.40 | wurp2 | angasule: Unless you're transfering momentum to another body, orbits should be permanent |
| 19:44.43 | angasule | A graph of altitude over time shows that it drifts down almost 2.5 km per month. |
| 19:44.49 | angasule | wikipedia dixit |
| 19:44.59 | angasule | and of course, the lower it is, the faster it drops |
| 19:45.01 | wurp2 | angasule: What drifts? |
| 19:45.07 | angasule | wurp2: ISS |
| 19:45.12 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: random stuff like thrusts on solar panels from the sun not being perfectly accounted for. |
| 19:45.55 | SpeedEvil | angasule: It vairs over a wide band - 100Km + though |
| 19:47.21 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: hmm... why the hell isn't the satellite itself transmitting info about its current position, then? Needing to communicate with a server about global information about a device that's already transmitting to you seems pointless |
| 19:47.26 | SpeedEvil | angasule: I think this was from a discussion on how long it could last between reboost optimally |
| 19:47.28 | *** join/#openmoko jeward (n=jeward@ares.chinoc.net) |
| 19:47.29 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: it does |
| 19:47.40 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: it transmits a complete cycle every 12 mins |
| 19:47.42 | jeward | I want one. :) |
| 19:47.48 | jeward | Where can I get one? |
| 19:47.55 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: but, you need to recieve that. - or the intermediate 30s info |
| 19:48.09 | angasule | jeward: check your shoes on january 5? |
| 19:48.15 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: if you have that info, you can get a fix in well under 30s |
| 19:48.21 | jeward | I'm barefoot. |
| 19:48.36 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: why does the FR take 1-2 minutes with AGPS, then? :-/ |
| 19:48.50 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: It'[s not using AGPS |
| 19:48.59 | *** join/#openmoko merriam (n=merriam@wmerriam.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 19:49.02 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: It was in the info I was reading |
| 19:49.07 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: just conventional GPS, with satellite orbit data stored on flash. |
| 19:49.24 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: It took this fellow 12 mins to get a lock with just GPS, 1-2 min with AGPS |
| 19:49.30 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: well - if it is - it's doing it wrong. I've got any number of GPSs that will get _way_ better than 2 min locks |
| 19:49.43 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: IIRC there was a problem with early FRs |
| 19:49.58 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: something in the anntenna mux being improperly driven. |
| 19:50.03 | wurp2 | Yeah, every report I've heard of FR GPS was of it taking an almost unbelievably long time to get a fix :-( |
| 19:50.04 | alphaone | wurp2: It really depends. |
| 19:50.38 | alphaone | wurp2: Usually when standing still outside my FR gets a fix in under a minute. |
| 19:50.44 | wurp2 | alphaone: With or without assistance? |
| 19:50.46 | jeward | angasule: They'll become available January 5th? |
| 19:50.48 | alphaone | Without any information whatsoever |
| 19:50.56 | wurp2 | alphaone: That's great news! |
| 19:51.20 | SpeedEvil | alphaone: what hardware is this? |
| 19:51.23 | alphaone | wurp2: Well... |
| 19:51.31 | *** join/#openmoko Mathiasdm (n=Mathias@vpnd014.ugent.be) |
| 19:51.32 | mmontour | alphaone: "without any information whatsoever" means you cleared its almanac too? |
| 19:51.45 | alphaone | The thing is as soon as I'm moving and conditions are not so optimal it can take AGES. |
| 19:51.59 | SpeedEvil | stabs the HH people. |
| 19:52.11 | SpeedEvil | wishes for datasheets so he could code a nice GPS solution. |
| 19:52.14 | alphaone | mmontour: The almanac and other stuff is cleared as soon as the GPS is powered down. |
| 19:52.23 | angasule | jeward: no, on the 5th of january the three hmm, wizards? bring gift, it's a christian thing, I just like the gifts |
| 19:52.36 | alphaone | SpeedEvil: There are datasheets on the u-blox page |
| 19:52.42 | SpeedEvil | alphaone: for HH |
| 19:52.44 | jeward | I'm both barefoot and non-christian. You've lost me. |
| 19:52.46 | SpeedEvil | alphaone: hammerhead |
| 19:52.52 | SpeedEvil | alphaone: the GPS in GTA01 |
| 19:52.55 | alphaone | ah, I see |
| 19:53.20 | angasule | jeward: I'm also not christian, but I like getting gifts :D |
| 19:53.25 | alphaone | There seems to be a way to get the raw GPS data from the u-blox chip as well |
| 19:53.33 | alphaone | with the UBX protocoll |
| 19:55.09 | alphaone | SpeedEvil: Hardware ist GTA02v5 IIRC |
| 19:55.15 | alphaone | or v6 |
| 20:06.16 | SpeedEvil | alphaone: not nearly as raw as HH |
| 20:06.37 | SpeedEvil | alphaone: with HH, it's basically a software-defined radio - with the hard-realtime only done in the HH |
| 20:06.46 | alphaone | SpeedEvil: Might be, I haven't looked too closely |
| 20:06.52 | SpeedEvil | alphaone: the UBX stuff gives you rather more 'cooked' info |
| 20:07.25 | alphaone | still, I'll take u-blox over HH any day |
| 20:07.48 | *** join/#openmoko tomboy64 (n=tomboy64@e178013097.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 20:08.00 | SpeedEvil | Without drivers, I agree. |
| 20:08.04 | alphaone | You can do some pretty cool stuff if you speak UBX |
| 20:08.11 | SpeedEvil | s/t d/t open source d/ |
| 20:08.13 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 20:11.27 | wurp2 | Can someone with a FR speak to this?: http://mobile.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=595147&cid=23939209 |
| 20:11.48 | wurp2 | I know some of it is true, and some other bits aren't true, but I know nothing about stereo headsets on the FR |
| 20:12.07 | mmontour | heh - I just (seconds ago) replied to that one. |
| 20:12.31 | apol | why is slashdot saying that openmoko is out but the topic has not changed? |
| 20:12.37 | apol | am I missing anything? |
| 20:12.40 | Qwell | apol: because it isn't out |
| 20:12.41 | SpeedEvil | apol: slashdot are idiots? |
| 20:12.54 | Qwell | apol: let's put it this way - linuxdevices.com has pulled their article. |
| 20:13.03 | SpeedEvil | apol: while it may be technically true (or not - nobodies commented) that they're shipping to vendors. |
| 20:13.12 | wurp2 | mmontour: Good point about the headset - if you use the nokia compatible one, it *is* mono |
| 20:13.13 | SpeedEvil | They are not purchasable. |
| 20:13.32 | apol | ok |
| 20:13.37 | apol | then I'll forget about that :P |
| 20:14.21 | angasule | wurp2: how could he get a freerunner so soon? maybe a beta? |
| 20:14.44 | SpeedEvil | angasule: or reading mailing lists for apple, and the power of lies! |
| 20:15.54 | angasule | SpeedEvil: steve jobs is a sith lord! but the question is, is he the master, or the apprentice? |
| 20:16.41 | SpeedEvil | is betting on a Gungan in disguise. |
| 20:17.04 | angasule | hahaha |
| 20:17.10 | angasule | that was mean :P |
| 20:21.45 | *** join/#openmoko kdubois (n=kdubois@fw.arb.zattoo.com) |
| 20:24.51 | wurp2 | Some people at universities already got Freerunners |
| 20:25.16 | CVirus | I haven't got one |
| 20:25.21 | wurp2 | A few people have drifted through here talking about their new Freerunners |
| 20:25.21 | CVirus | I'm at a university |
| 20:25.27 | CVirus | and my bachelor project is next year :p |
| 20:25.28 | wurp2 | CVirus: You're obviously at the wrong university |
| 20:25.32 | CVirus | lol |
| 20:25.33 | kdean06 | Indeed. :P |
| 20:25.54 | CVirus | actually my bachelor project is in 2 years ... that's why I need the FreeRunner a bit earlier than others :-p |
| 20:26.00 | wurp2 | It really shocked me that some apparently random folks at a university were getting them, when people doing GSoC didn't have one yet. |
| 20:26.37 | *** join/#openmoko hiciu (n=hiciu@host-91-200-27-218.leon.com.pl) |
| 20:26.44 | kdubois | slashdot is reporting that the freerunner is shipping, is that true? |
| 20:26.50 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 20:27.14 | balrog-kun | it's shipping from one continent to another, perhaps, not to homes |
| 20:27.24 | CVirus | hehe |
| 20:27.38 | *** topic/#openmoko by SpeedEvil -> No, Freerunner is not out yet, despite what slashdot says. Official updates at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates . | ASU means August Software Update and is coming soon. |
| 20:27.44 | kdean06 | :) |
| 20:28.09 | CVirus | much better :-) |
| 20:28.13 | *** join/#openmoko unarzna (i=hk69690@node1.cluster.cs.uta.fi) |
| 20:28.36 | kdubois | haha. i guess if i read more closely (http://mobile.slashdot.org/mobile/08/06/25/1751228.shtml) it says 'to distributors' |
| 20:28.53 | kdean06 | Has that topic ever actually prevented someoen from asking "When's freerunner coming out?" |
| 20:28.59 | SpeedEvil | Dunno. |
| 20:29.10 | wurp2 | we need a bot |
| 20:29.15 | SpeedEvil | ponders changing it to 'freerunner sold out'. |
| 20:30.21 | zlfita | GOAALLL!! |
| 20:31.51 | *** join/#openmoko |R (n=bob@dsl-67-212-14-7.acanac.net) |
| 20:41.45 | *** join/#openmoko noidd (n=red@cpe-071-068-074-085.carolina.res.rr.com) |
| 20:41.58 | noidd | haha, subject ;-) |
| 20:42.21 | wurp2 | There has been a question or two |
| 20:42.42 | *** join/#openmoko ConfidentiaL (n=anders@79.160.97.102) |
| 20:42.55 | noidd | I bet it's been non-stop |
| 20:45.38 | *** join/#openmoko jankratochvil (n=jankrato@host0.dyn.jankratochvil.net) |
| 20:50.00 | *** join/#openmoko Wiedi (n=wiedi@newton-air.w.fruky.net) |
| 20:51.08 | TAsn | lol, just read in slashdot, and then i read the topic :) |
| 20:51.18 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-206-154.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 20:52.42 | *** join/#openmoko spydon (n=spydon@90-227-33-55-no42.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 20:56.35 | *** part/#openmoko bahadunn (n=bahadunn@24.244.172.71) |
| 20:56.45 | SpeedEvil | kdean06: See! |
| 20:57.00 | kdean06 | Wow. |
| 20:57.13 | kdean06 | TAsn, Is the first human being to ever read a topic before posting. Damn. |
| 20:57.15 | SpeedEvil | They do exist! (people that read the topic) |
| 20:57.36 | kdean06 | BRB, I need to go collect a bet, seems snowballs DO have a chance in hell now... |
| 20:57.38 | *** join/#openmoko Deubeuliou (n=david@alpha.sigill.org) |
| 20:58.06 | TAsn | kdean06, worship me :) |
| 20:58.21 | kdean06 | No thanks, not into that whole "authority over others" thing. |
| 20:58.43 | TAsn | well at least buy me a moko :) |
| 20:58.52 | TAsn | damn, I want one! |
| 20:59.19 | Basheri | We get now - let's say - 5 freerunner questions per day, maybe it would be like 20 without the topic ;) |
| 20:59.20 | spydon | Where can I find the companies that will sell the freerunner I have only found pulster :P |
| 20:59.55 | kdean06 | As a total side note... Somehow I was just reminded of the Sega GameGear... |
| 21:00.20 | kdean06 | So I looked it up on Wikipedia and I thought "those specs have to be a typo". |
| 21:00.25 | kdean06 | Yay for advancement. |
| 21:00.35 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03werner * r4499 10/trunk/src/host/envedit/Makefile: |
| 21:00.35 | CIA-45 | openmoko: - remove dependencies in "make clean" |
| 21:00.35 | CIA-45 | openmoko: - actually make use of dependencies |
| 21:00.37 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 21:00.57 | SpeedEvil | And at one time, 48K/8 bit was a valid game platform. |
| 21:01.43 | SpeedEvil | Now I'm contemplating manufacturing a 32 bit 16M computer on a 2cm*2cm PCB |
| 21:03.32 | *** join/#openmoko fifafrazer (n=as@0x5738c817.rdnqu1.broadband.tele.dk) |
| 21:03.41 | angasule | boo, no 3D accel? :( |
| 21:06.01 | mjr | balrog-kun has some aspirations towards that, or had anyway, but not officially |
| 21:07.38 | angasule | I wonder what kind of 3D can the chip do |
| 21:08.07 | mjr | the answer is somewhat little |
| 21:09.51 | angasule | does any openmoko variant have stereo headphone support? |
| 21:10.02 | angasule | because I have an idea :D |
| 21:10.12 | balrog-kun | basically same stuff the other 3D accels can do (full OpenGL ES iirc) |
| 21:10.22 | angasule | a potentially amazing idea that will get me all the chicks |
| 21:10.25 | balrog-kun | just scaled down in max resolutions a bit |
| 21:10.28 | angasule | balrog-kun: that's quite a bit |
| 21:10.35 | balrog-kun | yeah |
| 21:10.39 | angasule | not gonna run crysis |
| 21:10.49 | angasule | but some fun stuff, and useful stuff, too |
| 21:11.08 | angasule | hmm, sorry for the stupid question, but is there an emulator? |
| 21:11.31 | balrog-kun | for the freerunner hardware, nope |
| 21:11.33 | *** join/#openmoko Renault (n=Renault@AToulon-151-1-63-65.w86-193.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 21:11.38 | angasule | for any openmoko variant? |
| 21:11.41 | balrog-kun | not that i know of |
| 21:11.45 | balrog-kun | for the neo1973 yeah |
| 21:11.48 | angasule | if I develop for one, porting shouldn't be a big problem, right? |
| 21:12.10 | SpeedEvil | qemu is an emulator |
| 21:12.10 | balrog-kun | yeah, no porting needed, even if you develop on a different ARM device or a different ARM emulator |
| 21:12.32 | angasule | well, I'll develop on AMD64 :) |
| 21:12.55 | balrog-kun | good idea :) |
| 21:12.57 | angasule | once I finish this OpenAL thingie and the distcc thingie, I was planning on a little VoIP thing |
| 21:13.30 | *** join/#openmoko malik1972 (n=malik197@e182049238.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 21:13.31 | angasule | nothing new or special, except: it would support positional sound (with OpenAL) and would have an interface to take advantage of it |
| 21:13.46 | angasule | so a call with multiple people doesn't sound like The Voices are angry |
| 21:13.59 | angasule | what do you think? :) |
| 21:14.28 | angasule | with stereo headphones it's possible to do 3D sound, btw, obviously it'd be awful on the mono speaker |
| 21:14.36 | *** join/#openmoko russellb (n=russell@asterisk/developer-and-stable-maintainer/drumkilla) |
| 21:15.14 | mjr | Well. You don't really need to do full 3d processing for that |
| 21:15.41 | bagpuss_thecat | wonders if the OpenMoko A2DP support will also send callerid information to his headphones :-) |
| 21:15.46 | mjr | just mix differently along the left-right-axis. A useful idea, to be sure. |
| 21:16.05 | angasule | mjr: ever heard an HRTF demo? |
| 21:16.37 | angasule | it can do front/back distinction |
| 21:16.46 | wurp2 | angasule: Regarding the stereo headset, 1973 & Freerunner both support stereo headset |
| 21:16.53 | angasule | cool |
| 21:16.54 | mjr | I know, I'm just saying you don't need to do that to be useful |
| 21:17.09 | wurp2 | angasule: FR doesn't have two external speakers, but who gets stereo from speakers 2" apart anyway |
| 21:17.17 | angasule | mjr: well, I'd be developing the thingie for PCs |
| 21:17.20 | mjr | and I do wonder if the neo has the horsepower for full 3d aural imaging; I dunno? |
| 21:17.28 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: you do get a meaningfull amount of stereo. |
| 21:17.30 | angasule | wurp2: yes, I meant for headphone use only |
| 21:17.34 | str4nd | hello mjr :) |
| 21:17.54 | kdean06 | wurp2, I do! I walk down the street with the 1973 upside-down stuck at the bridge of my nose so the speakers are between my ears. |
| 21:18.13 | wurp2 | kdean06: Now if I see you walking down the street, I'll know who you are. |
| 21:18.15 | kdean06 | The lady with too many dogs and a really bad odor looks funny at me when i do that. |
| 21:18.19 | angasule | what graphical toolkit does openmoko use? and what sound backend? alsa? |
| 21:18.36 | wurp2 | angasule: Many, and alsa + pulseaudio |
| 21:18.39 | mjr | the toolkit thing is kinda a mishmash now |
| 21:18.42 | *** join/#openmoko ahven (n=kala@194.126.113.140) |
| 21:18.45 | kdean06 | angasule, Openmoko is built on X, it uses all of them. :) Uses Alsa, plus Gstreamer and Pulseaudio |
| 21:18.47 | wurp2 | angasule: Although pulseaudio may go away |
| 21:19.02 | *** join/#openmoko playya (n=playya@p57B280E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 21:19.05 | angasule | but there is no preference for toolkit? I like qt... :) |
| 21:19.10 | kdean06 | WE're not sure. |
| 21:19.14 | kdean06 | Honestly. |
| 21:19.24 | mjr | angasule, the qtopia phone stack is the current choice for phone functions |
| 21:19.27 | kdean06 | My understanding of what's happening was muddied yesterday. :S |
| 21:19.46 | kdean06 | But EFL for non-phone apps. :S |
| 21:19.53 | mjr | gtk has been previously used, and efl seems to be the hip trend now... |
| 21:19.53 | kdean06 | And GTK for non-phone, non-EFL apps. |
| 21:20.01 | kdean06 | Meh. |
| 21:20.07 | angasule | mjr: neat |
| 21:20.11 | angasule | what's EFL? never heard of it |
| 21:20.24 | angasule | why have 3 graphical toolkits? O_O |
| 21:20.31 | kdean06 | Enlightenment FOundation Libraries. |
| 21:20.40 | angasule | ah |
| 21:20.48 | wurp2 | angasule: > 3 ;-) |
| 21:21.07 | kdean06 | Each toolkit has strengths and weaknesses, and because the aim of openmoko was to NOT make that choice on an Open platform. |
| 21:21.10 | kdean06 | Let the user decide. |
| 21:21.11 | wurp2 | angasule: So you can port arbitrary apps, I guess |
| 21:21.26 | wurp2 | angasule: But I do agree that it would be nice if they chose a default one internally |
| 21:21.32 | mjr | angasule, well, qtopia was taken mostly because they supposedly have good working phone stack (turns out less than advertised and in need of further work, but meh, it seems to mostly work) |
| 21:21.46 | angasule | ok, I just asked the main dev of openal-soft but he hasn't done profiling, no idea how much power is required |
| 21:21.48 | kdean06 | Perhaps I am simpl becoming more and more cynical, but I don't think "giving users a choice" will ever be appealing in a mass market device. |
| 21:22.20 | angasule | I have used qtopia-core for x86 apps (running on the framebuffer) |
| 21:22.32 | kdean06 | It's becoming more and more clear to me that people would rather not think about what's on their phone, TV, computer and simply muddle on. |
| 21:22.35 | angasule | we are sort of developing a DE for old PCs |
| 21:23.27 | angasule | hmm, does the openmoko CPU work well with floats? or it's better to go with integers? |
| 21:23.36 | mjr | angasule, no hard floats |
| 21:23.43 | mjr | so or, yes |
| 21:24.06 | angasule | ah, that would definitely have to be changed in openal-soft, then, since positions are specified as floats |
| 21:24.29 | *** part/#openmoko malik1972 (n=malik197@e182049238.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 21:24.58 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervisco) |
| 21:25.12 | angasule | OpenGL ES is integer oriented? |
| 21:26.06 | *** join/#openmoko bipak (n=bip@p57B86660.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:26.45 | mjr | anyway, I seem to have cut short on the different toolkits; gtk was the traditional openmoko toolkit, and efl came with raster, apparently eg. for its ability to do nifty stuff pretty fast or something ;) |
| 21:27.08 | mjr | so that's how we got here, where we go, nobody knows |
| 21:27.33 | mjr | one hopes with theming the user doesn't have to care overly much |
| 21:27.50 | *** join/#openmoko suuuper (n=suuuper@ppp-224-181.32-151.iol.it) |
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| 21:42.42 | mmontour | sees another discussion of toolkits, and notes that he's running a couple of lesstif-based apps :) |
| 21:43.19 | doc|work | wants punch card support |
| 21:43.50 | kdean06 | Openmoko Neo Difference Engine |
| 21:44.26 | doc|work | ONDE, we can do better than that, NODE Neo Openmoko Difference Engine? Doesn't really work but the acronym is so much better :) |
| 21:44.47 | *** join/#openmoko jsmiith (n=jsmiith_@67.214.4.68.dynamic.dejazzd.com) |
| 21:45.12 | kdean06 | Yoda agrees! |
| 21:45.17 | angasule | what's the native integer size on the OM CPU? |
| 21:45.30 | mjr | 32 |
| 21:46.39 | angasule | cool |
| 21:46.50 | *** join/#openmoko wurp2 (n=wurp@65.111.180.216) |
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| 22:03.09 | CVirus | If some poor EE student puts an S-R latch into the forbidden state, then Q=Q', and all the basic assumptions of logic fail. All the laws of mathematics and physics break down, 0 equals Infinity, atomic nucleii repel their electrons, matter ceases to exist, and the universe disappears in a puff of logic. |
| 22:09.16 | *** join/#openmoko neldoreth (n=ascot@81-223-127-237.stpeter.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 22:13.57 | *** join/#openmoko ProgramZeta (i=programz@72.20.3.102) |
| 22:18.50 | kdean06 | wurp2, Did you have the AT&T firmware thing fixed? |
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| 22:24.51 | xamindar | is it true? the phone is available? |
| 22:25.12 | mjr | topic |
| 22:25.23 | russellb | heh. |
| 22:25.31 | russellb | has one |
| 22:25.32 | russellb | runs |
| 22:26.32 | mjr | more precisely, shipments are reportedly being hauled to some reseller points |
| 22:26.34 | wurp2 | kdean06: Yes |
| 22:26.45 | wurp2 | kdean06: If you mean the one that made some AT&T SIM cards not work in the 1973 |
| 22:26.56 | kdean06 | Yep, that's what I meant. :) |
| 22:27.09 | *** join/#openmoko angasule (n=angasule@190.176.197.75) |
| 22:27.14 | mjr | they will presumably announce availability when it is available |
| 22:27.24 | xamindar | ahh, oops |
| 22:27.30 | wurp2 | kdean06: You can check the revision of your firmware... mine is 8 |
| 22:27.59 | wurp2 | I would have to search around for the gsm command to do that check |
| 22:30.27 | balrog-kun | AT%VER was one |
| 22:31.21 | kdean06 | Actually, I just wanted to confirm a statement I was sending to the list. :) |
| 22:31.47 | kdean06 | At one point I filled out the Wiki page with my firmware version. |
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| 23:05.22 | `pwgen_64` | mickeyl: i tested the linux-openmoko-devel_git . resume/suspend is working. phone call ... tomorrow |
| 23:05.36 | mickeyl | excellent. thanks. keep me posted |
| 23:06.17 | `pwgen_64` | ah, i can mount the sd card ! |
| 23:06.23 | mickeyl | yay |
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| 23:09.00 | `pwgen_64` | mickeyl: what is the best way to give the 'Demo Only' some function |
| 23:09.33 | mickeyl | hook into the 'transition to' |
| 23:09.39 | mickeyl | and add some own code |
| 23:09.48 | mickeyl | e.g. an edje |
| 23:09.54 | mickeyl | or something completely different |
| 23:10.13 | mickeyl | take a moment and study the .edc |
| 23:10.16 | `pwgen_64` | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:10.21 | mickeyl | yeah |
| 23:10.25 | mickeyl | for now: |
| 23:10.42 | mickeyl | DIAL | PHONEBOOK | SMS | PREFERENCES |
| 23:10.52 | mickeyl | later more, of course |
| 23:11.07 | mickeyl | a whole universe of cool apps waiting for us to finish the basics |
| 23:12.22 | *** join/#openmoko kdean06 (n=kdean06@fsf/member/kdean06) |
| 23:13.29 | erko | mickey, I like how the phone vibrate-ring works even when I've killed the UI to do dev stuff. |
| 23:13.47 | *** join/#openmoko chillywilly (n=danielb@rrcs-67-53-13-27.west.biz.rr.com) |
| 23:13.52 | mickeyl | hehehe |
| 23:13.57 | mickeyl | yeah, the power of daemons |
| 23:14.04 | mickeyl | actually, one of my goals is |
| 23:14.10 | mickeyl | to enable people to do a ncurses UI |
| 23:14.12 | chillywilly | they also have an article on linuxdevices.com saying the Freerunner is out |
| 23:14.30 | chillywilly | so it's not really out I take it? |
| 23:14.37 | mickeyl | so i will take care that everything is independent of any UI |
| 23:14.53 | CVirus | mickeyl: cool |
| 23:15.09 | `pwgen_64` | i have written a simple gtk gui for pyneod .. seem to update this ... |
| 23:15.36 | erko | mickeyl, great idea -- i was thinking of a cmd-line answer, should all be easy with the framework |
| 23:16.08 | mickeyl | erko: yep. dead-easy. and we invite all people doing cool stuff. the only requirement is dbus |
| 23:16.15 | mickeyl | perl answering machine? be our guest |
| 23:16.18 | mickeyl | :) |
| 23:16.27 | erko | :) |
| 23:16.29 | mickeyl | bash sms firewall? no problem |
| 23:16.31 | mickeyl | ... |
| 23:17.28 | `pwgen_64` | dbus-send --system --..... will be enough to do calls ,so a bash cmd interface is already there . |
| 23:17.57 | mickeyl | yeah, although that's cumbersome |
| 23:18.03 | mickeyl | qtdbus got it right |
| 23:18.06 | *** join/#openmoko slomo_ (n=slomo@e177033189.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 23:18.24 | `pwgen_64` | dbus-inspector .... is extrem cool ... |
| 23:19.06 | `pwgen_64` | with x-11 enabled dbus-launch its possible to use it |
| 23:20.39 | CVirus | What is Sean responsible for ? |
| 23:21.08 | mickeyl | which Sean? |
| 23:21.36 | CVirus | Sean Mozz-Pultz |
| 23:22.31 | mickeyl | ah. Sean Moss-Pultz is the president of Openmoko, Inc. |
| 23:22.43 | mickeyl | he is responsible for steering the whole ship |
| 23:22.54 | doc|work | completely didn't see the l there :o |
| 23:22.56 | mickeyl | on a high level |
| 23:23.04 | CVirus | I see |
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| 23:41.54 | linuxxr | openmoko.com has links yays!! |
| 23:55.08 | CIA-45 | openmoko: 03werner * r4500 10/trunk/src/host/envedit/ (tests/Common tests/Makefile xtests/Makefile): |
| 23:55.08 | CIA-45 | openmoko: - tests/Common: invoke "echo" as /bin/echo to avoid backslash interpretation |
| 23:55.08 | CIA-45 | openmoko: - tests/Makefile, xtests/Makefile: set PATH to include . |
| 23:55.52 | doc|work | linuxxr: that's nothing, qtopia will have webkit :) |
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| 23:57.19 | CVirus | openmoko.org and openmoko.com are both down ? |
| 23:57.51 | CVirus | what happened to openmoko.com !! |
| 23:58.09 | SpeedEvil | I |
| 23:58.20 | SpeedEvil | ''m guessing they may be down for updates. |
| 23:58.40 | CVirus | it's up now |
| 23:58.44 | CVirus | it has completely changed |
| 23:59.18 | SpeedEvil | Oh. It now points to the iphone page. |
| 23:59.22 | SpeedEvil | (kidding) |
| 23:59.31 | CVirus | lol |