| 00:02.01 | mwester | ljp: I think somebody identified a problem in u-boot that slowed dfu-util dramatically, but IIRC the fix had some bad side-effects. It sure is slow, and the flash is 4x bigger! |
| 00:03.23 | SuN | wurp2: I'm sure they'll solve it quickly, it's just... awkward :) |
| 00:05.28 | ljp | someone might put up an older 4.3 one... somewhere |
| 00:07.36 | ljp | wish I could release the 4.4 images... |
| 00:13.30 | ljp | hmmm.. reboot doesnt logout on the gta02 |
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| 02:05.54 | jeffszusz | hello, fellows |
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| 02:10.16 | jeffszusz | I'm seeing a lot of hype about Android and OpenMoko "competing" and how Android is backed by the googlemonster and whatnot. Is this all unfounded? I can't imagine two "open source" projects being considered "competitors" in the commercial sense. |
| 02:10.46 | jeffszusz | I've been excited about OpenMoko for months and months, and I'm now reading these discouraging news items. |
| 02:12.49 | mwester | "competition" is often in the eyes of the reporter. |
| 02:13.19 | jeffszusz | So it's all a bunch of bulldrek? |
| 02:13.21 | dcordes | jeffszusz: why are they discouraging? |
| 02:14.09 | mwester | To the average consumer, the difference between what Android and what Openmoko are doing is difficult to understand, hence they may percieve it as competition. |
| 02:14.29 | mwester | In reality, the two projects are very different, both in goals as well as in technology. |
| 02:14.41 | jeffszusz | i would hate for google (and the open handset alliance) to use the Giant Marketing Machine to promote android so much that OpenMoko and the Fic phones won't do very well. and i am concerned that Google will find a way to put Ads on the darn thing. |
| 02:15.10 | jeffszusz | (on Android that is) |
| 02:15.16 | wurp2 | I'm sure they will |
| 02:15.20 | mwester | I wouldn't dismiss it as "bulldrek", because the confusion does need to be addressed. Android doesn't care to address it, and few really understand the vision of Openmoko. |
| 02:15.35 | dcordes | jeffszusz: they don't need to search for ways of putting adds. everything necessary is present |
| 02:16.01 | jeffszusz | oh i know. i mean find a way to put the adds on there in an insidious fashion so nobody realizes their phone is a billboard. |
| 02:16.14 | mwester | Oh yeah. |
| 02:16.41 | mwester | The typical web surfer thinks that the internet was ALWAYS full of spam, and the web pages were ALWAYS half google ads. |
| 02:16.42 | jeffszusz | the one thing i can see as being GOOD is that hopefully all the phones that will run android will be easier to develop openmoko for...with open API's etc. |
| 02:17.14 | mwester | In 5 years, many people will believe that phone service is exactly like internet service, and that somehow the ads are part of the experience. |
| 02:17.42 | jeffszusz | what is the difference in "philosophy" between the two? i am familiar with some, but i'm not quite clear. |
| 02:17.43 | mwester | I'm afraid that there's no incentive for anyone associated with Android to release any source or specs. |
| 02:17.49 | jeffszusz | hm |
| 02:18.10 | jeffszusz | but android being open source would mean you could look at the source and get the API specs there, no? |
| 02:18.12 | dcordes | jeffszusz: the hardware they use initially is not as open as one might think. still you are right. they have the msm7500A git. |
| 02:18.31 | mwester | Not all the source is available. |
| 02:18.40 | dcordes | mwester: what's missing? |
| 02:18.53 | jeffszusz | ah so Android is more like the Greenphone's OS? |
| 02:19.21 | mwester | I am told (I've not bothered ot check for myself; android doesn't interest me that much) that certain device drivers are not released, at least at this time. |
| 02:19.30 | jeffszusz | huh |
| 02:19.49 | mwester | jeffszusz: The philosophy is expressed best by Openmoko themselves: http://www.openmoko.com/ |
| 02:20.26 | jeffszusz | i am familiar with the openmoko philosophy. i have not found any "official" stance on android's philosophy |
| 02:21.20 | dcordes | mwester: well you have everything you need to make complete use of msm7500A. Still the msm7x00x chipsets can't be regarded as open in any case because qualcomm keeps a lot of the stuff in the arm9. |
| 02:21.52 | dcordes | mwester: of course the modem but also GPS, camera, etc. |
| 02:22.15 | rwhitby | jeffszusz: Android is not your normal open source project - it is an alliance of handset manufacturers getting together to determine the best marketing strategy for increasing their company revenue. open source or not is a secondary consideration - it's just one marketing strategy to them. |
| 02:22.16 | dcordes | with the arm9 firmware, some micronkernel you can do a lot which is not in command of the user |
| 02:22.23 | mwester | A quick google doesn't shed any light either; it just says that there are still parts of the SDK that are closed, but does not elaborate on what parts those are. |
| 02:22.25 | dcordes | also referred to as AMSS |
| 02:22.44 | mwester | The SDK is outside the hardware or drivers, I expect. |
| 02:22.50 | rwhitby | Anything that is not required to be open sourced today in Android is still closed. |
| 02:22.51 | jeffszusz | i see one thing that refers to the ability of vendors to lock the android platform in their phone |
| 02:22.58 | jeffszusz | what's the point of an open source platform that isn't even open? |
| 02:23.18 | rwhitby | jeffszusz: "open" is a good marketing buzzword |
| 02:23.29 | jeffszusz | gross. |
| 02:23.43 | rwhitby | note that you will see google describe Android as an "Open Platform", *not* an "Open Source Platform". |
| 02:23.51 | jeffszusz | ahhh |
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| 02:24.07 | mwester | missed that distinction... clever. |
| 02:24.09 | dcordes | the qualcomm msm7x00x chipset suites the not so open strategy |
| 02:24.39 | rwhitby | However, they have said that they will release the source to most things in the base platform (including the SDK) once the alliance handset manufacturers have all released hardware |
| 02:24.50 | jeffszusz | so people who know what open source really is will still stick with openmoko... and people who get an android phone will, for the most part, be people who wouldn't have adopted openmoko anyway |
| 02:25.11 | jeffszusz | is that a fairly good prediction? |
| 02:25.14 | rwhitby | (e.g. once the marketing advantage of keeping it closed is exceeded by the marketing advantage of opening it up) |
| 02:25.44 | rwhitby | 99.9% of people who get an android phone won't know what open source is |
| 02:26.13 | dcordes | jeffszusz: maybe there will be also a group of people that welcomes the google hardware to use a true open source operating system on it |
| 02:26.55 | jeffszusz | hm |
| 02:26.59 | rwhitby | dcordes: yes, part of the 0.1% will be people who take advantage of the fact that at least the kernel patches for any Android platform must be (and have currently been) released as open source |
| 02:27.28 | jeffszusz | of those of you who have a Neo already; how is the screen? it's hard to picture the size of it. the numbers seem small. |
| 02:29.45 | dcordes | rwhitby: that looks like pretty much the gist of the marketing strategy. you put sources for the base system and no matter what you do on top of it, you can still sell it as an open platform |
| 02:30.40 | rwhitby | dcordes: yup, and you put out a big prize so developers will write apps for it and do the viral marketing for you. |
| 02:31.03 | jeffszusz | hehe, that's google for you |
| 02:31.08 | rwhitby | Note that currently only the people who won the first round of the competition are getting binary SDK updates, and they are getting them under NDA only. |
| 02:31.14 | jeffszusz | "Don't be evil" isn't still their slogan is it? |
| 02:31.34 | rwhitby | Sure - note that "Don't be evil" is not the same as "Always be good" |
| 02:31.41 | jeffszusz | lol |
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| 02:32.13 | rwhitby | They are being meticulously careful to not violate any software licensing (e.g. GPL) |
| 02:32.24 | dcordes | rwhitby: so it's only semi legal to poke with android filesystems? |
| 02:32.45 | rwhitby | dcordes: depends what EULA you clicked when you downloaded the SDK |
| 02:33.07 | rwhitby | (the one I saw said that you couldn't reverse engineer the SDK in any way) |
| 02:33.53 | dcordes | I'm thinking of a certain person who plays with msm based htc devices and puts android initrds on his server. I doubt he clicked any liscense |
| 02:34.32 | linuxxr | if they dont release all the source its not open source is it? |
| 02:35.23 | jeffszusz | nope |
| 02:35.46 | dcordes | linuxxr: THEY did never claim it was. scroll up and look at what rwhitby said |
| 02:35.47 | jeffszusz | i suppose you can compare it to OS X. Darwin is open source. the rest is not. |
| 02:36.10 | dcordes | jeffszusz: what's darwin? |
| 02:36.25 | jeffszusz | Darwin is the BSD-based unix that Mac OS X has at it's core |
| 02:36.51 | rwhitby | dcordes: if he didn't click any license, or get the SDK contents from someone who did click a license, then he's fine. |
| 02:36.56 | jeffszusz | their desktop environment is the proprietary part |
| 02:37.03 | dcordes | jeffszusz: oh yea in that case I think you can compare it well because the userland looks like it's not much about openness |
| 02:37.40 | jeffszusz | hmmm - is the homepage www.openmoko.com showing the upcoming Freerunner? |
| 02:37.49 | jeffszusz | because it looks much cooler with no orange or green trim |
| 02:37.54 | jeffszusz | or white trim |
| 02:37.58 | rwhitby | Google has said that their base apps will be open source, again after handset manufacturers have released hardware. Note that handset manufacturers have not said that their apps will be open source, and are not required to make them so due to the BSD license for the SDK. |
| 02:38.08 | dcordes | jeffszusz: yes that's the mass market device to be released soon |
| 02:38.16 | jeffszusz | amazing. |
| 02:38.49 | rwhitby | jeffszusz: Google marketing is a pretty amazing machine. You've got to admire it really :-) |
| 02:38.51 | linuxxr | its beautiful |
| 02:38.52 | jeffszusz | does anyone have a 1973? i dunno if you caught my question: how's the screen size? the numbers look small, and it's hard to tell in pictures. |
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| 02:40.31 | dcordes | I think a big part of the target goup for android are those who hop on open source (it's a quickly evolving market) and don't ask many questions about liscensing etc as you did right now |
| 02:40.56 | dcordes | it's a quickly evolving market and everybody wants their piece of the cake |
| 02:44.55 | jeffszusz | question: is there any news on the wiki or elsewhere about how long the development cycle will be for new hardware? i really want a Neo Freerunner, but sadly my current CDMA network contract isn't going to expire untl next february. if i wait that long, is there going to be sufficient time to get the value out of the Freerunner before a new handset is released? |
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| 02:47.25 | jeffszusz | or if there's no official info, does anyone have any guesses? |
| 02:47.48 | dcordes | jeffszusz: you mean as in, will you get fresh software for the freerunner when there will be new hardware? |
| 02:48.27 | jeffszusz | oh i expect to get fresh software whenever there's an update |
| 02:48.53 | jeffszusz | i mean will i get my hardware next february only to have new hardware release soon after and i'll be wishing i had waited |
| 02:50.43 | jeffszusz | my funds won't stretch to cover a $400+ phone every year ;P |
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| 02:51.59 | dcordes | jeffszusz: ah got it. have no information about the next generation of openmoko hardware. I hope they will follow a sort of it's done when it's done strategy about release dates for the freerunner successor |
| 02:52.06 | jeffszusz | i'm concerned with buying the freerunner 7 to 9 months into it's lifespan will be like buying a blackberry and then going "oops, there's a new one out" |
| 02:53.26 | dcordes | regarding the software lifespan you shouldn't worry. you can assume it will be supported long time |
| 02:53.43 | jeffszusz | yeah, i'm not concerned with that at all |
| 02:54.20 | dcordes | sorry can't help with info on hardware successor |
| 02:54.46 | jeffszusz | i'm more concerned with me being a compulsive "must buy it" cult member when it comes to new gadgets, and i just know i'd buy the new OpenMoko phone regardless of whether the rent was due ;) so i'm wondering if i'll be tempted too often |
| 02:55.03 | dcordes | at .eu daytime you will get more help in here |
| 02:56.23 | jeffszusz | no worries, i'm actually hoping the Freerunner has a LONG span and that there won't be new models released every six months to a year |
| 02:56.29 | jeffszusz | XD |
| 02:56.43 | jeffszusz | else i'll have phones piling up on my desk... |
| 02:57.15 | dcordes | jeffszusz: I think you can consider the 'span' a year |
| 02:57.24 | jeffszusz | hm |
| 02:57.26 | dcordes | jeffszusz: what's your current device? |
| 02:57.34 | dcordes | jeffszusz: at least a year I mean |
| 02:57.44 | jeffszusz | i'm currently using an LG FastTap or something |
| 02:57.45 | jeffszusz | it sucks |
| 02:58.18 | dcordes | lol it has no touchscreen. stoneage!! |
| 02:58.21 | jeffszusz | i just don't want to buy the Freerunner in February 09 and have the -new- Neo come out four months later or something |
| 02:58.29 | jeffszusz | :P |
| 02:58.48 | jeffszusz | i would just replace the phone i have and buy the Freerunner when it first comes out - but my network is not GSM |
| 02:59.04 | jeffszusz | have to switch providers...3-year contracts are evil |
| 02:59.04 | dcordes | haha that keypad is sick on the fasttap |
| 02:59.21 | jeffszusz | yeah the keypad is cool. it's probably the easiest non smart-phone ever to text with |
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| 03:01.27 | dcordes | abcd-efgh- they could have made it qwerty |
| 03:02.04 | dcordes | so you could turn the thing around 90° and flip the display content for texting |
| 03:03.17 | jeffszusz | it's not a smart phone though ;) |
| 03:03.23 | jeffszusz | just a regular phone with seperate letter buttons |
| 03:04.27 | dcordes | jeffszusz: when you will get the freerunner in february you have the advantage of reading many reviews ;) |
| 03:04.36 | jeffszusz | true |
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| 03:06.33 | jeffszusz | is there much concern that updates will "break" making phonecalls? or is the platform small and specialized enough that generally at an official update release, the Freerunner will usually work just fine? |
| 03:07.07 | jeffszusz | (that is, as far as everyone is assuming/hoping - obviously nobody KNOWS this) |
| 03:10.47 | dcordes | jeffszusz: depends what you conside updates. You can assume provided 'official' builds will be tested well |
| 03:10.57 | dcordes | s/conside/consider/ |
| 03:11.09 | wurp2 | dcordes: Do you think there will be 'official' builds with any frequency? |
| 03:11.20 | dcordes | no clue. |
| 03:11.28 | wurp2 | afaik the last official build for the gta01 is from last November or something |
| 03:11.39 | wurp2 | and it doesn't have reliable phone & sms |
| 03:11.40 | jeffszusz | hmm |
| 03:11.55 | jeffszusz | yeah it wasn't intended to right off the bat, they had to get the bugs out |
| 03:11.57 | wurp2 | Of course, that's the early developer's device |
| 03:12.10 | wurp2 | Well, it was always intended to |
| 03:12.18 | dcordes | jeffszusz: as for the underlying metadata, the openembedded buildsystem, which is a complex thread of dependencies with many many updates, of course things can break here and now. |
| 03:12.20 | jeffszusz | er...it wasn't expect to, rather. |
| 03:12.21 | wurp2 | But it was not unexpected that it didn't, early on |
| 03:12.41 | wurp2 | But there is still an issue of things going in circles |
| 03:12.45 | jeffszusz | hm |
| 03:12.47 | jeffszusz | OH |
| 03:13.05 | wurp2 | calls & sms have worked reliably on about one build in 3, or maybe 50% of the time, on average |
| 03:13.06 | jeffszusz | searches the wiki for any country-specific info |
| 03:13.15 | wurp2 | some builds they work well, later they don't, then they do again |
| 03:13.42 | dcordes | wurp2: are you talking about the autobuilder images? |
| 03:13.54 | wurp2 | Although I don't think there has ever been a release w/o a loss of gsm at least once every 5 days |
| 03:14.04 | wurp2 | dcordes: Yeah. Realistically, there aren't any other images. |
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| 03:15.50 | jeffszusz | dances because Rogers and Fido are both listed as compatible openmoko providers |
| 03:15.57 | dcordes | wurp2: what about images people have tested? |
| 03:16.29 | wurp2 | You mean the ones Kevin tests? |
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| 03:16.54 | dcordes | probably. Don't know who kevin is |
| 03:16.54 | wurp2 | Those are the ones I'm talking about. Kevin is a community member testing the regular automated builds |
| 03:17.13 | wurp2 | That's the only source of 'tested' images I know of |
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| 03:17.59 | wurp2 | This is probably not a good time to get info about OM from me :-) |
| 03:18.15 | dcordes | wurp2: why not? :) |
| 03:18.28 | wurp2 | For people who actually use the device on a regular basis, it has been fubar for several weeks |
| 03:18.55 | wurp2 | The dev team dropped the regular OM release without really informing the community, and are working on ASU |
| 03:19.07 | wurp2 | so now both are broken, and it seems they will be for a while |
| 03:19.10 | dcordes | wurp2: you mean for thos who want to flas a new filesystem every once in a wile ;P? |
| 03:19.12 | jeffszusz | ASU? |
| 03:19.35 | wurp2 | As long as you're willing to use a vanilla install of an old OM release, you're OK |
| 03:20.00 | wurp2 | jeffszusz: April Software Update, the code word for the "new & improved" OM software |
| 03:20.08 | dcordes | beurk old kernel and all. You don't feel good without a 2.6.25 in your pocket? |
| 03:20.13 | wurp2 | with fancy sliding windows, and no stability :-) |
| 03:20.42 | wurp2 | dcordes: Nah, my problem was that I was on a release on which the gsm would die once or twice a day, and SMS didn't work at all |
| 03:20.44 | dcordes | wurp2: the E17 library based kind of thing? |
| 03:20.59 | wurp2 | It was one Kevin tested, but he just doesn't use them long enough to see these issues |
| 03:21.07 | wurp2 | So I went to burn a better one, and got fucked |
| 03:21.10 | wurp2 | dcordes: Yeah |
| 03:21.36 | wurp2 | I am on my third day now of trying to recover |
| 03:21.54 | dcordes | wurp2: as oenmoko inc ceo I would put somebody to maintain gta01 a bit |
| 03:22.13 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat's images are quite good in many ways, but sound appears to be busted. Not on the phone, but for mp3s, etc. |
| 03:22.21 | ret_ | gta03 should have an fpga on the device |
| 03:22.25 | wurp2 | dcordes: That would be a good marketing move, I think |
| 03:22.40 | dcordes | wurp2: that sounds fixable witht the mp3 |
| 03:22.44 | wurp2 | ret_: gta03 = FreeRunner - glamo + camera + utms |
| 03:23.05 | wurp2 | dcordes: Yeah, it should be. I just would rather not be doing this kind of work at this stage in the game |
| 03:23.22 | dcordes | wurp2: will gta03 still have the bottle openner? |
| 03:23.23 | wurp2 | ret_: gta04 is the next one where we get "new" stuff |
| 03:23.34 | ret_ | it would be nice to have an fpga handling IO, it might speed things up |
| 03:23.36 | ret_ | i see |
| 03:23.44 | dcordes | ret_: what's an fpga? |
| 03:23.47 | wurp2 | dcordes: I don't think so. Someone mentioned on the mailing list that you wouldn't be seeing a lanyard with it |
| 03:23.47 | jeffszusz | Q: is there a specific "type" of service you have to sign up for with OpenMoko in order to take advantage of the internet etc. over GSM? or will regular service work fine? my "friend" at rogers says he's not sure how well it will work. |
| 03:23.51 | wurp2 | :-) |
| 03:23.59 | wurp2 | jeffszusz: Any service |
| 03:24.02 | dcordes | jeffszusz: regular services |
| 03:24.04 | ret_ | field programmable gate arrary |
| 03:24.13 | ret_ | s/arrary/array |
| 03:24.14 | wurp2 | jeffszusz: I am on AT&T GoPhone |
| 03:24.32 | wurp2 | ret_: I don't think you'll see that on an OM phone any time soon at all |
| 03:24.40 | ret_ | it's basically a reprogrammable processor which executes in parallel |
| 03:25.00 | wurp2 | jeffszusz: The only caveat was ittook me a long time to get gprs going. I had to search around a lot & play with scripts |
| 03:25.01 | dcordes | sounds like a debug kind of thing? |
| 03:25.18 | ret_ | i think it might have a cool impact for hw hackers |
| 03:25.19 | jeffszusz | what IS gprs anyway? is it a phone service over the GPS network or what? |
| 03:25.45 | ret_ | i have no idea why the chumby doesn't have one |
| 03:25.47 | wurp2 | gprs is just the slow internet access you can get on any gsm service |
| 03:25.49 | dcordes | gps network is sweet :) |
| 03:26.05 | jeffszusz | oh |
| 03:26.18 | jeffszusz | i thought the freerunner was going to have "true 3G data speeds" |
| 03:26.31 | dcordes | jeffszusz: no 3g in freerunner |
| 03:26.31 | jeffszusz | or is that something that differs between the freerunner and the 1973? |
| 03:26.39 | jeffszusz | ah |
| 03:26.45 | wurp2 | jeffszusz: FreeRunner gets wifi, but still gprs |
| 03:26.50 | jeffszusz | darn |
| 03:26.53 | wurp2 | gta03 will be faster, I think |
| 03:26.57 | dcordes | jeffszusz: quicker processor, wifi, motion sensors, cool look |
| 03:26.59 | wurp2 | still not 3g :-/ |
| 03:27.26 | wurp2 | dcordes: Don't forget the video accelerator hardware ;-) |
| 03:27.26 | jeffszusz | i wonder why they chose to skip the 3g. just because wifi can be used most times anyway? |
| 03:27.42 | wurp2 | jeffszusz: There are apparently big licensing fees associated, and very spotty coverage in the US |
| 03:27.47 | jeffszusz | ahhh |
| 03:27.59 | jeffszusz | well coverage is better anyway then |
| 03:28.02 | dcordes | wurp2: you talk about the glamo? I hear people made an mpeg vo for it |
| 03:28.10 | dcordes | s/mpeg/mplayer/ |
| 03:28.29 | wurp2 | dcordes: Yeah, I was mostly being sarcastic |
| 03:28.35 | wurp2 | dcordes: But balrog-kun did make great progress with mpeg4 playback |
| 03:29.04 | dcordes | what is the big problem about the glamo because of which everybody hates it? |
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| 03:30.21 | wurp2 | the sd reader is also on the glamo |
| 03:30.34 | wurp2 | so it shares bus with the video |
| 03:30.50 | wurp2 | and possibly even the primary bus... the video bus is way slower then gta01 |
| 03:31.08 | wurp2 | and while you're reading full speed from the SD, per raster it starves the processor |
| 03:31.08 | raster | aye |
| 03:31.20 | raster | all in all its about the same speed as gta01 |
| 03:31.25 | dcordes | hi raster |
| 03:31.42 | raster | some things faster (eg video scaling to fullscreen is faster/better on glamo thanks to yuv->rgb + scaler) |
| 03:31.45 | raster | other things slower |
| 03:31.53 | raster | (software rendering, pixel uploads etc.) |
| 03:31.56 | raster | fill and blit are accelerated |
| 03:32.05 | raster | anything else (other than xv) is not |
| 03:32.14 | raster | yes in theory the glampo can do some more |
| 03:32.21 | raster | but i dont have time to work on tht |
| 03:32.43 | dcordes | makes me wonder why gta02 got the glamo |
| 03:32.46 | wurp2 | fortunately balrog-kun did :-) |
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| 03:33.20 | raster | dcordes: glamo would have been a great chip - if we had qvga and we had it 3 years ago. |
| 03:33.47 | raster | its "just ok" these dfays |
| 03:33.56 | raster | it does get more system performance by freeing up memory bandwidth |
| 03:34.13 | raster | rememeber if the fb was in system ram u'd lose about 40mb/sec read bandwidth to just the vga video refresh |
| 03:34.35 | raster | so the glamo gets that back |
| 03:34.43 | raster | by video refresh coming from its own video ram |
| 03:34.52 | raster | but you pay the price with a small bus to that video ram |
| 03:35.02 | dcordes | I see |
| 03:35.37 | raster | we can accelerate more on the glamo |
| 03:35.40 | dcordes | still I'd like to ask why people didn't evaluate different solutions more |
| 03:35.45 | raster | but bit by bit u hit the land of diminishing returns |
| 03:35.47 | jeffszusz | well thanks guys, i'm off for today. be back soon |
| 03:35.50 | raster | u spend X days doing it |
| 03:35.59 | raster | and each time u accelerate a lesser and lesser used function |
| 03:36.06 | raster | if we had a "glamo2" coming |
| 03:36.27 | raster | with mroe speed/features/whatever - i'd be jumping on it seeing lamo as a first in a series of better and better gfx chips |
| 03:36.39 | raster | but as it stands - we know of no successor in the works |
| 03:36.50 | raster | as for solutions |
| 03:36.55 | raster | for stand-alone gfx chips |
| 03:36.57 | raster | just look around |
| 03:37.03 | raster | see how many u find for embedded |
| 03:37.06 | raster | there are almost none |
| 03:37.13 | raster | most of them are part of the soc |
| 03:37.26 | raster | glamo was the only ones willing to allow open drivers |
| 03:37.27 | dcordes | there is the ati chips. |
| 03:37.28 | raster | well smedia |
| 03:37.30 | dcordes | nda? |
| 03:37.35 | raster | and for that we have to thank them. |
| 03:37.42 | raster | ati chips are even weaker than the glamo |
| 03:37.46 | raster | :) |
| 03:37.52 | raster | at least the ones i have found/loked at |
| 03:37.59 | dcordes | so it's all about the slow bus? |
| 03:38.18 | ret_ | raster, i asked earlier about implementing an fpga for io between chips on the board and directly communicating to the main processor.. what do you think? |
| 03:38.23 | raster | well the bus is one factor limiting the speed of any existing fallback software rendering |
| 03:38.34 | raster | so you gain on one hand (fast blits and fills) then lose on the other |
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| 03:38.54 | raster | ret_: theory sound. practice - fpga's are physically large and eat power. |
| 03:39.02 | raster | at least that is what i understand of them |
| 03:39.15 | raster | so find for a device whihc has no size or power constraints - ie set top boxes |
| 03:39.20 | raster | u are plugged nto mains |
| 03:39.26 | dcordes | sounds like it's merely a evaluation board thing |
| 03:39.27 | raster | for a phone... |
| 03:39.41 | ret_ | ha ok. just opened up my receive and surprisingly saw two fpgas inside |
| 03:39.58 | raster | well ask the hw engineers |
| 03:40.00 | ret_ | i see. i had not considered power issues |
| 03:40.02 | raster | that is what i keep being told |
| 03:40.04 | raster | consistently |
| 03:40.10 | dcordes | ret_: tv receiver? |
| 03:40.23 | ret_ | but as an IO controller, it would be great |
| 03:40.25 | raster | for pci cards it is not surprising |
| 03:40.28 | raster | u have mains power |
| 03:40.29 | raster | :) |
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| 03:40.47 | ret_ | dcordes, for tv, stereo, ipod, xbox, dvd.. etc |
| 03:42.01 | ret_ | right. maybe they will produce better low-power fpgas soon ;] |
| 03:42.01 | dcordes | ret_: xbox receiver? |
| 03:42.23 | ret_ | dcordes, denon 3808 |
| 03:43.47 | dcordes | what could one do with a beagle board? |
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| 04:26.04 | josch | dcordes, you have one? |
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| 05:05.07 | atul | XULRunner is available on Openmoko or not ? |
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| 05:47.21 | mbuf | can we have two repos for the same project, one for svn, one for git in projects.openmoko.org? |
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| 06:28.40 | methril | morning |
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| 06:53.06 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 06:53.45 | mbuf | Hopscotch, good morning |
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| 08:09.13 | wibbit | you lot are up early, must be main land europe? |
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| 08:14.42 | ohin | it's 10 o'clock here :) |
| 08:16.08 | wibbit | I was thinking more then ones logging in and wishing a good morning at half 7 :) |
| 08:16.09 | ljp | its 6 pm here |
| 08:19.41 | ScaredyCat | it's next week here. |
| 08:28.37 | ljp | wow, thats heavy |
| 08:32.00 | cekay | you guys should stop using the flux compensator |
| 08:34.29 | XorA | chuckles at Andy Powell emails :-) |
| 08:34.48 | XorA | ScaredyCat: having fun :-) |
| 08:35.04 | ScaredyCat | :) |
| 08:36.44 | XorA | I call Ass Ass In two donkey and the ark |
| 08:38.11 | ScaredyCat | lol |
| 08:39.05 | ScaredyCat | well, I just don;t understand...maybe I'm too old fo rhtis |
| 08:39.06 | ScaredyCat | this |
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| 08:40.46 | XorA | ScaredyCat: its what happens if you let marketing people out of their boxes |
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| 08:41.14 | ScaredyCat | by boxes, you mean coffins ... right :P |
| 08:45.08 | XorA | nah, only cool people get coffins |
| 08:46.14 | SpeedEvil | XorA: OM coffins do have a funky futuristic shape though. |
| 08:48.35 | XorA | Well Neo looks exactly like the torpedo casings used in star trek as coffins |
| 08:51.33 | ljp | i thought it lookds like a hockey puck |
| 09:07.39 | ScaredyCat | aren't they round ? |
| 09:08.27 | ScaredyCat | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_puck |
| 09:09.35 | ScaredyCat | I never wuite got why a torpedo needed a casing tbh... |
| 09:10.03 | ScaredyCat | mmm... my keyboard is playing silly buggers |
| 09:11.18 | XorA | ScaredyCat: coz photons like to escape :-) |
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| 09:16.21 | ScaredyCat | "I envisioned them as what we saw during the TV era, they were glowing globs of plasma or some sort of energy. They weren't giant capsules. I envision them as big, glowy, dangerous blobs of... scariness." -- Andrew Probert |
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| 09:29.36 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * rc67d5ca14fef 10/TODO: update TODO |
| 09:29.36 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r20ee0f5b631e 10/TODO: Merge branch 'master' of git@git.freesmartphone.org:gsm0710muxd |
| 09:29.36 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r202e4ce5e4d8 10/src/gsm0710muxd.c: Merge branch 'master' of git@git.freesmartphone.org:gsm0710muxd |
| 09:29.36 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r3ff86b129640 10/TODO: gsm0710muxd: add more to TODO |
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| 09:31.06 | mickeyl | yo |
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| 09:33.11 | Sup3rkiddo | yo |
| 09:33.14 | dcordes | yo mickeyl |
| 09:33.32 | tobii_ | yoyo |
| 09:34.53 | Zero_Dogg | are there any pre-compiled qemu/bochs/whateveremu of a recent-ish openmoko that I can use for development? |
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| 09:44.51 | spyre | mickeyl: I saw you made a .bb file for gsmd2, have you actually had a chance to try gsmd2 itself? |
| 09:45.07 | mickeyl | not yet, it doesn't compile |
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| 09:45.24 | mickeyl | there's some problems w/ the python bindings |
| 09:45.28 | mickeyl | need to look further into it |
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| 09:49.42 | Sup3rkiddo | mickeyl, there?, could you hop onto the gsoc channel as well..your evil twin is there |
| 09:58.21 | spyre | mickeyl: you can skip the python stuff, it is just for the tests |
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| 10:07.58 | mbuf | where can i find a list of projects in openmoko, that require python work? |
| 10:08.06 | mbuf | *python developers |
| 10:08.55 | zedstar | mbuf u can browse by language on projects.openmoko.org for community projects |
| 10:09.06 | mbuf | zedstar, did that |
| 10:15.22 | CIA-44 | openmoko: 03thomas * r4488 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/opkg_install.c: |
| 10:15.22 | CIA-44 | openmoko: opkg: Don't attempt to check the validity of a repository if package did not |
| 10:15.22 | CIA-44 | openmoko: come from a known source |
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| 10:23.18 | ScaredyCat | ^^^ does that mean if it was installed from a local disk for example? |
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| 10:44.32 | mjr | rented out his soul for two years for a huawei e169 with multisim service |
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| 10:56.03 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * ra4bb34b37f61 10/odeviced/README: changed deps |
| 10:56.03 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * rc9859b717aa8 10/odeviced/src/ (16 files in 4 dirs): Initial work on automating sysfs creation, camelcase DBus method in accordance with fso naming conventions |
| 10:56.16 | Sup3rkiddo | wooohoo |
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| 11:02.26 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * r28066bef7278 10/odeviced/conf/odeviced.conf: disable backlight for now |
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| 11:27.30 | wibbit | It took almost 3 months, but I finally got my phone back from nokia support |
| 11:27.51 | wibbit | So far, it has "rebooted" during about 70% of the phone calls I've received, AND will sit there on my desk randomly rebooting |
| 11:28.13 | wibbit | Release the freerunner already, I can't believe the os is worse that that :) |
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| 11:30.28 | cb22 | wibbit: the freerunner does all that bad stuff and kills kittens :) |
| 11:30.30 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * r2ea5b4ff9a6d 10/odeviced/autogen.sh: Replace auto-generated autogen.sh |
| 11:30.43 | wibbit | That's okay, I don't like kittens :) |
| 11:31.23 | ScaredyCat | :( |
| 11:32.03 | wibbit | too much fluff |
| 11:32.07 | cb22 | i blame lolcats. |
| 11:32.52 | mudyc | ScaredyCat: eight lives left ;) |
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| 11:37.37 | xMDKx | hi all |
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| 11:53.57 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * rd5af1b43f59b 10/odeviced/autogen.sh: copy stuff from gnome-autogen.sh |
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| 12:25.20 | CIA-44 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r75dac3aec6ec 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade Qtopia to have "Save to Contacts" fixed |
| 12:25.20 | CIA-44 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * rc64fe6d34ee8 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade ninja to get the Green bar selected animator |
| 12:25.21 | CIA-44 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * rfa5e57148d06 10/ (2 files in 2 dirs): [srcrev] Upgrade assassin to get animation changes |
| 12:25.22 | CIA-44 | openmoko: 03julian_chu 07org.openmoko.dev * rdecd00c4f35f 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [openmoko] the original reversion of linux-openmoko-devel |
| 12:25.25 | CIA-44 | openmoko: 03julian_chu 07org.openmoko.dev * r77184cd60bb1 10/ (2 files in 2 dirs): [exposure] Bump up reversion of exposure to 30. |
| 12:25.28 | CIA-44 | openmoko: 03raster 07org.openmoko.dev * rdf8d86c332b5 10/conf/distro/include/ (sane-srcdates.inc sane-srcrevs.inc): newer revs of illume and efl/e |
| 12:25.31 | CIA-44 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r577542b77d7f 10/packages/qtopia-phone/qtopia-phone-x11_git.bb: [qtopia] systemtime uses worldtime pictures but they are not installed (#1463) |
| 12:25.34 | CIA-44 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r4d885ac76fdb 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [qtopia] Update Qtopia to get GSM work initiated by mwester |
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| 12:29.33 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * rba07fa874196 10/odeviced/src/daemon/ (helpers.vala plugin.vala): Open up the plugin conf file when plugin is initialised, rather than opening it multiple times |
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| 12:32.21 | ConfidentiaL | ok, I guess this is the most common question here, but; When approximately can we start ordering it? Are we talking days or weeks? |
| 12:32.56 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 12:32.58 | SpeedEvil | Or months. |
| 12:33.03 | SpeedEvil | Hopefully not months. |
| 12:33.17 | SpeedEvil | Best guesses are around a month or so. |
| 12:33.49 | ConfidentiaL | really, I thought it was just a couple of days, because the mass production had started... :( |
| 12:34.03 | patoh | mass production can take ages |
| 12:34.11 | patoh | its not like its doing 10,000 phones per day |
| 12:34.35 | SpeedEvil | Productions got to finish - there are dozens of steps. They've then got to be put in the final boxes, shipped to the US, ... |
| 12:35.02 | cb22 | and then provided the plane / ship carring them doesnt have an accident |
| 12:35.08 | wibbit | patoh: do you know how many a day they can pump out? |
| 12:35.12 | SpeedEvil | Or they get hung up in customs. |
| 12:35.16 | cb22 | lots of things could go wrong :( |
| 12:35.16 | patoh | nope |
| 12:35.47 | wibbit | so may be they are doing 10k phones a day :) |
| 12:35.59 | cb22 | in which case it should take a day |
| 12:36.02 | patoh | I don't even know if they are going to be doing more than 10k phones in total |
| 12:36.17 | SpeedEvil | If it was me, I'd be doing 2.5-5K |
| 12:36.21 | patoh | I have no idea, check the community announcements |
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| 12:41.53 | wibbit | Do we know how many gta01's were made |
| 12:43.03 | abraxa_ | Somethere between 3 and 5k, from my understanding |
| 12:43.09 | abraxa_ | Somewhere* |
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| 12:57.16 | ScaredyCat | little pixies did it |
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| 13:21.56 | buz | wonders what TSA does when a notebook boots linux? |
| 13:22.19 | abraxa_ | buz: I bet they'll ask you to enter your login credentials, just like on Windows |
| 13:22.35 | XorA | buz: shoot your hippie ass on sight |
| 13:22.44 | buz | XorA: i was suspecting something like that |
| 13:22.46 | buz | i might just swap the harddrive |
| 13:23.00 | XorA | login: bomb password: boom |
| 13:23.04 | *** join/#openmoko liberfiasco (n=libervis@78-1-90-61.adsl.net.t-com.hr) |
| 13:23.16 | abraxa_ | buz: And don't take your optical drive |
| 13:23.22 | buz | it's basically impossible to ensure that nothing that could get you in trouble remains on an used drive |
| 13:23.45 | cb22 | is planning to deactive X on his netbsd eee when he goes to the US |
| 13:24.01 | buz | does not really solve the issue does it |
| 13:24.01 | cb22 | and make it only boot up in single user mode, shits and giggles time :) |
| 13:24.04 | buz | data still there |
| 13:24.14 | cb22 | buz: nah, i've got no data |
| 13:24.22 | buz | mine lives in a luks volume |
| 13:24.33 | cb22 | although i might create a file kiddie_pr0n.jpg thats goatse.cx :p |
| 13:24.33 | buz | but i'll bet they'd simply detain you until you give them the password |
| 13:24.39 | cb22 | infact, a few hundrer |
| 13:24.56 | XorA | cb22: that'll probably earn you an obscenity rap :-) |
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| 13:25.21 | cb22 | XorA: hehe, lemonparty then :p |
| 13:25.36 | buz | two girls one cup could even get you in trouble in many european countries |
| 13:25.47 | XorA | chuckles |
| 13:26.30 | cb22 | but it doesnt matter, how are they going to view the pictures in the console :), chmod -x /usr/pkg/bin/Xorg |
| 13:26.40 | XorA | I would suggest just not aggravaiting the minimum wage dude |
| 13:26.45 | buz | yeah |
| 13:27.03 | XorA | I suspect linux will be fine, they just want to see the machine do something |
| 13:27.11 | buz | well they know search data in some cases |
| 13:27.16 | XorA | I mean there are quite a few Apple laptops int he world |
| 13:27.40 | cb22 | yeah: bomb0 at pci0 dev 31 function 3: vendor 0x8086 product 0x266a (rev. 0x04) |
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| 13:28.00 | XorA | buz: apple dont use FAT32 either, and NTFS can be heavilly encrypted |
| 13:28.15 | buz | they will just force you to reveal the password |
| 13:28.19 | buz | or seize the machine |
| 13:28.20 | cb22 | buz: ah |
| 13:28.33 | cb22 | thats where phonebookfs comes in :) |
| 13:28.40 | XorA | buz: its normal traveller rules, never fly with something you cant afford to replace |
| 13:28.46 | XorA | buz: no matter where you fly |
| 13:29.00 | broonie | Even without customs your baggage can simply go AWOL :) |
| 13:29.01 | buz | i can afford to replace a notebook, it's insured against theft anyway |
| 13:29.11 | cb22 | you crete different 'layers', and you can have an infinite amount of them |
| 13:29.16 | XorA | buz: then stop worrying enjoy your trip |
| 13:29.29 | cb22 | so you could reveal one, and they would have no way of knowing if you have more |
| 13:29.36 | cb22 | or reveal two or three |
| 13:29.46 | buz | mhh plausible deniability |
| 13:29.55 | XorA | or fly Dublin to the USA |
| 13:30.04 | XorA | thats the safeest route |
| 13:30.25 | buz | how does that help |
| 13:30.25 | XorA | American Immigration is in Dublin |
| 13:30.25 | AzalynHD | what's TSA ? |
| 13:30.25 | AzalynHD | some airline security thing? |
| 13:30.26 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-143-156.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 13:30.26 | buz | transport security agency |
| 13:30.27 | XorA | once you pass that it counts as an internal flight |
| 13:30.37 | buz | flying through amsterdam |
| 13:30.59 | *** join/#openmoko surf2me (n=surfer@unixboard/users/surf2me) |
| 13:31.16 | XorA | buz: I wouldnt worry then, you got 100 junkies on the plane with you :-D |
| 13:31.23 | AzalynHD | so what triggered this discussion? |
| 13:31.25 | AzalynHD | i just joined |
| 13:31.28 | AzalynHD | so i didn't see. |
| 13:31.38 | buz | was wondering what happens with a linux laptop in the us |
| 13:31.40 | AzalynHD | is there some new law about inspecting laptops? |
| 13:31.48 | buz | law or not, they just do it :P |
| 13:31.56 | AzalynHD | is that new? |
| 13:31.57 | *** join/#openmoko erik__ (n=erik@81-233-151-113-no82.business.telia.com) |
| 13:32.03 | AzalynHD | or have they been doing it for awhile? |
| 13:32.04 | buz | not particularly |
| 13:32.10 | XorA | buz: replace just do it with can do it |
| 13:32.16 | AzalynHD | hm... interesting. |
| 13:32.25 | buz | XorA: might do it |
| 13:32.41 | XorA | buz: the real question is do you have anything to hide? |
| 13:32.44 | cb22 | i just have this image in my head of agents serch a bag and confiscating some liquids that are 5ml over the limit, while in the background two guys are carrying a huge bomb onto the plane |
| 13:32.50 | XorA | buz: if the answer is no, just enjoy your trip |
| 13:32.51 | cb22 | searching* |
| 13:32.53 | *** join/#openmoko lzy-- (n=lzy@59-126-117-54.HINET-IP.hinet.net) |
| 13:32.55 | AzalynHD | I'm with cb22 though, just disable X. |
| 13:32.58 | buz | XorA: you never quite now what some shady sites put in your cache |
| 13:33.15 | AzalynHD | even better, use the package manager to uninstall it. |
| 13:33.23 | XorA | buz: you expect a 5$ an hour guy to know what a browser cache is |
| 13:33.24 | AzalynHD | You can always put it back after. |
| 13:34.01 | cb22 | XorA: yeah, for them to actually find something, you'd probably have to label it |
| 13:34.05 | XorA | if your really that worried, just empry your $HOME the day before flying |
| 13:34.19 | cb22 | ls /home/cb22: Illegal_documents State_Secrets |
| 13:34.26 | AzalynHD | then they'll be suspicious because you have nothing! |
| 13:34.27 | AzalynHD | :P |
| 13:34.34 | buz | yeah |
| 13:34.46 | cb22 | just say its a new laptop then |
| 13:34.46 | XorA | cb22: well if buz had that they probably pay him, I guess he isnt a US citizen |
| 13:34.52 | AzalynHD | but seriously, just remove x. |
| 13:34.58 | buz | XorA: LOL yes |
| 13:35.14 | *** part/#openmoko BDo (n=bdonnett@linagoraberri.pck.nerim.net) |
| 13:35.23 | AzalynHD | i'd like to see them figure out how to search for files without X. |
| 13:35.31 | XorA | they let me into the US before, they let anyone :-) |
| 13:35.46 | *** join/#openmoko retracile_ (n=eli@76-204-213-211.lightspeed.allntx.sbcglobal.net) |
| 13:35.47 | AzalynHD | and if they want to "see it do something" |
| 13:35.53 | AzalynHD | just make it compile firefox. :) |
| 13:35.54 | cb22 | AzalynHD: they'll start tripping on the find command :) |
| 13:35.58 | AzalynHD | that'll keep them busy. |
| 13:36.09 | cb22 | AzalynHD: or OpenOffice :p |
| 13:36.19 | buz | maybe deinstalling w32codecs :P |
| 13:36.32 | AzalynHD | or, create a bunch of broken symlinks, then ls -l an give them an epilepsy attack. |
| 13:36.33 | AzalynHD | :) |
| 13:36.43 | cb22 | cd /usr/bin; chmod -x * |
| 13:36.59 | buz | pop kubuntu cd, reinstall, done. |
| 13:37.19 | buz | nuke windows |
| 13:37.22 | XorA | or just cooperate and dont piss the guys with guns off |
| 13:37.31 | buz | that's sensible anyhow :P |
| 13:37.40 | buz | unless you're a ninja of course |
| 13:37.45 | AzalynHD | i don't think anyone that gets paid 5 dollars an hour has a gun. |
| 13:37.45 | AzalynHD | :| |
| 13:37.49 | cb22 | XorA: i'm more scared of the guys with white gloves, then the guys with guns |
| 13:37.57 | XorA | all the craziassed shit discussed here is the sort of stuff thats gonna make people suspicious |
| 13:38.07 | XorA | cb22: bend over and take it like a man :-) |
| 13:38.23 | buz | cb22: maybe bring the KY with you |
| 13:38.48 | cb22 | shudders |
| 13:38.50 | zedstar | just walk with a mince and say hello duckie and they wont touch u with the glove |
| 13:39.30 | cb22 | if they say they are going to cavety search you, could you tell them to f-off and catch another flight back? |
| 13:39.50 | buz | i doubt it |
| 13:41.07 | zedstar | probably not a good ideas unless u wanna be water boarded |
| 13:41.32 | zash | XorA: "the real question is do you have anything to hide?" |
| 13:41.51 | zash | XorA: what the hell |
| 13:41.56 | buz | you can't reliably answer that question |
| 13:42.11 | *** join/#openmoko dbmoodb (n=david@unaffiliated/dbmoodb) |
| 13:42.16 | XorA | heh, cavitiy search me, I suffer IBS :-D |
| 13:42.22 | cb22 | lol |
| 13:42.31 | dbmoodb | eta on the phone --- any more updates ? |
| 13:42.52 | zash | XorA: |
| 13:42.53 | zash | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:42.54 | zash | No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy |
| 13:42.58 | zedstar | conceal a freerunner up there to impress them |
| 13:43.13 | dbmoodb | zash: encryptfs ? |
| 13:43.18 | dbmoodb | encfs* |
| 13:43.27 | broonie | Apparently the Sex Pistols used to use Sid Vicious (sp!?!) as a deterrant to invasive searches; they sent him through first on the basis that his personal hygine was such that it would act as a deterrant. |
| 13:43.46 | zash | haha |
| 13:44.18 | buz | i wonder how pete doherty ever gets through airports |
| 13:44.27 | dbmoodb | rofl |
| 13:44.28 | zash | wishes that govs would stop raping UDHR |
| 13:44.29 | XorA | normally by the time they stopped gaping at my boots, I am long past security |
| 13:44.32 | dbmoodb | sorry wrong thing |
| 13:44.54 | dbmoodb | cb22: dude just take the sd card out -- or is that just me ? |
| 13:45.06 | dbmoodb | its a phone they are not going to ask to see it anymore |
| 13:45.11 | zash | dbmoodb: or, nfs over vpn |
| 13:45.25 | dbmoodb | nfs over vpn that's not the best idea, how about just sshfs ? |
| 13:45.44 | dbmoodb | or duplicity to a server and then get it back later |
| 13:46.52 | zash | or, dont go to USA |
| 13:46.57 | dbmoodb | zash: given that all communication you make to people without an openmoko (which would allow you and a friend potentially use use gpg / other ) to message / talk i see things being in the plain any way |
| 13:47.02 | dbmoodb | zash: eys that |
| 13:47.04 | dbmoodb | yes* |
| 13:47.34 | *** join/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@185-28.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 13:48.34 | zash | yes, encryption is pointless in many cases |
| 13:49.47 | zash | i think /. came to the conclusion that you should just buy a laptop in the country and pull data over the internet |
| 13:51.30 | buz | i'm actually planning to pick up a wind or aspire one in the us |
| 13:52.20 | *** join/#openmoko Outlander (n=Peter@unaffiliated/outlander) |
| 13:52.23 | buz | and seeing that i do offsite backups anyhow, i may just do that :P |
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| 13:56.08 | cb22 | oh noes, the intertubes |
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| 14:08.55 | `pwgen` | XorA: i fixed my git problem on building openmoko-devel |
| 14:09.39 | XorA | `pwgen`: cool, what was it |
| 14:09.44 | moko_in | can anybody help me on how to setup the openmoko as a usb mass storage device |
| 14:11.40 | ScaredyCat | wtf! US immigration is in Ireleand? |
| 14:11.43 | ScaredyCat | ireland? |
| 14:12.09 | ScaredyCat | I suppose it is the only way the terrorists can get into the usa... |
| 14:12.19 | *** join/#openmoko tubastian (n=tubastia@p508CD565.dip.t-dialin.net) |
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| 14:12.55 | broonie | ScaredyCat: They've got the same setup in most major hubs to the US (heathrow has the same thing, as does Frankfurt IIRC). You clear US immigration prior to getting on the plane. |
| 14:13.19 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 14:13.20 | ScaredyCat | wow, I've never done that... is this new? |
| 14:13.36 | broonie | A year or two ago. |
| 14:13.54 | XorA | Dublin was there since before 2001 |
| 14:13.59 | ScaredyCat | does that mean no waiting it a 10 mile queue at the other end? |
| 14:14.02 | *** join/#openmoko N-Mi (n=nicolas@calvix/staff/N-Mi) |
| 14:14.05 | `pwgen` | XorA: i downloaded the git archive from openenmoko-devel, renamed it and ser SRCDATE to the date of the night |
| 14:14.10 | ScaredyCat | s/it/in/ |
| 14:14.27 | ScaredyCat | !! |
| 14:14.27 | XorA | ScaredyCat: yes, you just walk out as though it was internal flight |
| 14:14.39 | `pwgen` | XorA: it may be a timezone dependent problem ... |
| 14:15.23 | ScaredyCat | so there are tsa in uk airports... ready to taze you? |
| 14:16.15 | Robot101 | broonie: eh? i thought it was only ireland that did that? |
| 14:16.30 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE001217b19226-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 14:16.42 | Robot101 | broonie: I've flown out of heathrow loads of times on Virgin and American and never cleared US immigration/customs beforehand |
| 14:16.57 | Robot101 | broonie: (Shannon and Dublin, IIRC) |
| 14:17.02 | XorA | ScaredyCat: Dont Taze Me Bro |
| 14:17.10 | ScaredyCat | :) |
| 14:17.14 | broonie | Robot101: I could well be mistaken, then. |
| 14:17.30 | broonie | (about Heathrow anyway) |
| 14:17.48 | XorA | its probably in terminal 5 somewhere, just it got lost :-D |
| 14:18.18 | ScaredyCat | if it got near terminal 5 that means it ended up in Spain somewhere ;) |
| 14:19.07 | *** join/#openmoko zedstar_ (n=john@82-44-200-69.cable.ubr08.haye.blueyonder.co.uk) |
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| 14:24.15 | moko_in | make openmoko-devel-image is giving me kernel and rootfs image for gta02 |
| 14:24.22 | moko_in | how do i get it for gta01? |
| 14:25.26 | cekay_ | vi need to edit your local.conf |
| 14:25.31 | cekay_ | you* |
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| 14:30.54 | ScaredyCat | MACHINE = "om-gta01" |
| 14:31.00 | ScaredyCat | in your local.conf |
| 14:31.30 | mjr | Nokia's Jaaksi is doing his best to promote OpenMoko |
| 14:31.57 | buz | why the drm fascist dont just use bsd is beyond me |
| 14:32.05 | mjr | indeed |
| 14:33.38 | *** join/#openmoko charlie137 (n=guillaum@218-166-206-31.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 14:33.45 | *** part/#openmoko charlie137 (n=guillaum@218-166-206-31.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 14:36.24 | zash | srsly, what happend to nokia? |
| 14:38.05 | *** join/#openmoko lrg (n=liam@79-68-66-4.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 14:38.08 | *** join/#openmoko surf2me (n=surfer@unixboard/users/surf2me) |
| 14:38.12 | *** join/#openmoko spydon (n=spydon@c-1166e253.553-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) |
| 14:39.16 | *** join/#openmoko polz (n=polz@cpe-212-18-59-35.dynamic.amis.net) |
| 14:41.57 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: Have you tried your 6/11 release? |
| 14:42.20 | ScaredyCat | 6/11 ... you mean 11/6 |
| 14:42.26 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * r80b6aa6fee5e 10/odeviced/src/daemon/helpers.vala: prevent segfualts if files cannot be opened |
| 14:42.26 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * r7683f23549ca 10/odeviced/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): |
| 14:42.27 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 1.) constructor for sysfs plugins take an additional dbus_path as a |
| 14:42.27 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: constructor |
| 14:42.27 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 2.) compute_dbus_paths renamed to compute_objects, accordingly return a |
| 14:42.30 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: list of objects instead of an array of strings |
| 14:42.31 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 14:42.33 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: 20080611 |
| 14:42.41 | mwester | reads the backlog and notes that he crosses the border frequenctly (although from .ca), and has never had anyone even look at the laptop even once. |
| 14:42.48 | ScaredyCat | wassup with it? |
| 14:42.56 | wurp2 | Sound is wonky |
| 14:43.02 | ScaredyCat | wonky? |
| 14:43.06 | wurp2 | The phone rings fine, it meows when it boots |
| 14:43.20 | wurp2 | But no click when I touch the screen, and no media player |
| 14:43.24 | CVirus | meows ? |
| 14:43.32 | ScaredyCat | no click is deliberate... |
| 14:43.33 | wurp2 | CVirus: It *is* the ScaredyCat release |
| 14:43.39 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: OK, I like that |
| 14:43.44 | CVirus | hehe .. ok |
| 14:43.46 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: I'm not so hot on the no media player thing |
| 14:43.48 | mjr | yeah that sounds like expected behavior :) |
| 14:43.54 | ScaredyCat | :P |
| 14:43.57 | mjr | likes the meow |
| 14:44.01 | wurp2 | me too |
| 14:44.42 | wurp2 | pulseaudio is running fine, the alsa mixer state looks OK (although I'm no expert) |
| 14:44.44 | CVirus | it really meows ? |
| 14:45.01 | CVirus | how can you generate sound on boot ? |
| 14:45.02 | wurp2 | I alsa restored stereoout and it made no diff |
| 14:45.15 | wurp2 | CVirus: Just like the OM tone |
| 14:45.24 | wurp2 | CVirus: It happens when X starts, not really at boot |
| 14:45.25 | ScaredyCat | errm... lemmie flash that one... (although I'm using a newer version atm) |
| 14:45.25 | mjr | CVirus, oh the meow is at the endish of the boot process |
| 14:46.06 | *** join/#openmoko key_ (n=key@cpe-24-28-17-170.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 14:46.32 | CVirus | I remember Sabayon linux can play a sound while it's booting |
| 14:46.33 | ScaredyCat | 0611 here .. |
| 14:46.53 | wurp2 | Same here |
| 14:46.53 | Sup3rkiddo | CVirus, it does?, you mean during init? |
| 14:47.01 | ScaredyCat | music is fin |
| 14:47.04 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: You mean 11/06? |
| 14:47.04 | CVirus | yup |
| 14:47.14 | Sup3rkiddo | how that? |
| 14:47.19 | ScaredyCat | 20080611 |
| 14:47.26 | CVirus | not sure |
| 14:47.26 | wurp2 | heh |
| 14:47.26 | *** join/#openmoko xMDKx (n=rodrigo@nat/mandriva/x-674583b26c01c9ae) |
| 14:47.45 | ScaredyCat | playing mp3 fine... |
| 14:47.50 | wurp2 | weird |
| 14:47.55 | ScaredyCat | have you tried rflashing? |
| 14:47.56 | wurp2 | Trying again, but I don't expect any diff |
| 14:48.00 | ScaredyCat | reflashing |
| 14:48.04 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: A few times :-( |
| 14:48.10 | ScaredyCat | and you did updte kernel at the same ime? |
| 14:48.11 | ScaredyCat | time |
| 14:48.11 | CVirus | my friend here says there's a boot option in the live CD "Boot with music" |
| 14:48.18 | wurp2 | Hah, awesome |
| 14:48.20 | wurp2 | Now it works |
| 14:48.25 | ScaredyCat | ! |
| 14:48.28 | wurp2 | I promise I've tried many times |
| 14:48.39 | wurp2 | Thanks for fixing it with your ScaredyCat powers |
| 14:48.57 | ScaredyCat | magic dust :) |
| 14:49.21 | *** join/#openmoko tsdogs (n=tsdogs@195.32.71.229) |
| 14:49.21 | ScaredyCat | CVirus: well, that would slow down boot quite a bit on the neo |
| 14:49.58 | CVirus | sure |
| 14:50.12 | CVirus | but I think it's cool |
| 14:50.33 | CVirus | my friend here is a new Sabayon dev and he himself doesn't know how they do it .. LOL |
| 14:50.51 | ScaredyCat | lol |
| 14:51.03 | ScaredyCat | sure it's not just playing the cd ? |
| 14:54.47 | CVirus | huh ? |
| 14:55.00 | CVirus | it's a live CD only feature |
| 14:57.27 | *** join/#openmoko t_s_o (n=kvirc@117.84-49-132.nextgentel.com) |
| 14:58.55 | *** join/#openmoko Quadduc (n=stian@193.216.73.219) |
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| 15:07.28 | bakarat | once the freerunner is available, how will i be able to get one in europe? |
| 15:08.02 | mjr | for instance http://www.pulster.de/engl/index.html is an official reseller |
| 15:08.47 | *** join/#openmoko dougt (n=dougt@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) |
| 15:08.51 | mjr | (presumably you would be able to order directly from OM as well, but be subject to more shipping charges and customs hassle) |
| 15:08.57 | *** join/#openmoko rcxdude (n=rcxdude@host81-153-198-60.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 15:09.30 | bakarat | mjr: ah :) |
| 15:09.36 | bakarat | mjr: is there a list of resellers? |
| 15:10.07 | mjr | don't recall |
| 15:10.13 | *** join/#openmoko t_s_o (n=kvirc@117.84-49-132.nextgentel.com) |
| 15:10.29 | mjr | I think trisoft was co-operating with some other official reseller |
| 15:11.58 | bakarat | on another note, how does the freerunner handle: touching the screen when placing the phone to your ear and when it's in your pocket? |
| 15:12.34 | *** join/#openmoko dougt (n=dougt@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) |
| 15:13.51 | zash | nice quote: http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=582917&cid=23776859 |
| 15:19.13 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@85.233.59.8.static.cablesurf.de) |
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| 15:20.28 | igor321 | http://people.openmoko.org/testing/software/Testreport/20080613/ |
| 15:20.32 | igor321 | did you guys see this? |
| 15:21.32 | ScaredyCat | theyre' posed to the dev mailing list |
| 15:21.35 | ScaredyCat | posted |
| 15:21.58 | ScaredyCat | CVirus: the CD could actually contain a music track... |
| 15:22.32 | wurp2 | I'm getting a lot of crackling today in my mp3 playback :-( |
| 15:22.41 | wurp2 | On the gta01 |
| 15:23.14 | ScaredyCat | remove the rice crispies from your ears :) |
| 15:23.36 | *** join/#openmoko ahven (n=kala@194.126.113.140) |
| 15:31.19 | *** join/#openmoko KenSentMe (n=jeroen@213-132-206-101.adsl.nlhosting.nl) |
| 15:34.58 | *** join/#openmoko mibo-cz (n=mibo-cz@ip-89-102-134-143.karneval.cz) |
| 15:35.33 | ebbe | How well does phone features work with ASU on gta01? |
| 15:38.20 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@208.84-48-176.nextgentel.com) |
| 15:40.08 | *** join/#openmoko pazante (n=patrik@user113.77-105-224.netatonce.net) |
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| 15:46.33 | bakarat | how does the freerunner handle: touching the screen when placing the phone to your ear and when it's in your pocket? |
| 15:47.16 | ScaredyCat | ebbe: not very well at all |
| 15:47.42 | ScaredyCat | bakarat: the software is not complete... |
| 15:47.52 | ebbe | ScaredyCat: Is there any reason for me to install it then? |
| 15:48.02 | bakarat | ScaredyCat: but isn't that sort of a prime requisite for mass usage? |
| 15:48.03 | ScaredyCat | bakarat: someone is working on gestures though |
| 15:48.22 | ebbe | ScaredyCat: I mean, can I still use tangoGPS and navit? |
| 15:48.23 | ScaredyCat | bakarat: I don't think this is a mass useage release |
| 15:48.35 | bakarat | ScaredyCat: o :| |
| 15:48.41 | bakarat | i was under the wrong impression then :( |
| 15:48.45 | ScaredyCat | ebbe: nothing seems to work (at least for me) |
| 15:49.06 | ebbe | bakarat: The hardware is fine for those things.. the software: not yet |
| 15:49.07 | ScaredyCat | ebbe: I seriously think you should stick with 2007.2 |
| 15:49.18 | ebbe | ScaredyCat: I'll do that then |
| 15:49.25 | ScaredyCat | bakarat: it's still in development, just a bit behind schedlule |
| 15:49.28 | bakarat | ebbe: ok, well i'll be buying one anyway ;) |
| 15:49.35 | ebbe | "a bit" :) |
| 15:49.51 | ScaredyCat | "a bit" is like a microsoft second |
| 15:52.33 | wurp2 | I'm so fickle |
| 15:52.38 | wurp2 | Yesterday I was all down on OM |
| 15:53.01 | wurp2 | Now my mp3s play and I whipped out the bt kbd on the potty and hacked |
| 15:53.08 | wurp2 | Now I love my phone again |
| 15:53.42 | ScaredyCat | I hope you used my bt kb script... |
| 15:53.52 | wurp2 | Nope |
| 15:53.54 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * r4e5403bad4ff 10/odeviced/conf/odeviced.conf: enabled backlight plugin again |
| 15:53.54 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * rbfe811e74453 10/odeviced/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Automatic creation of DBus paths based on sysfs nodes, call compute_objects for the same |
| 15:53.55 | wurp2 | Yours is good |
| 15:54.00 | wurp2 | But mine requires no UI interaction |
| 15:54.06 | wurp2 | Other than clicking the icon to start it |
| 15:54.29 | wurp2 | Mine would fail if there were multiple bt kbds in range, then I would fall back on yours :-) |
| 15:54.48 | ScaredyCat | except of course when you're sitting next to me on the train, and I'm quicker |
| 15:55.04 | ScaredyCat | yes.. that's the sole reason I wrote it... |
| 15:55.22 | wurp2 | er, I mean I would fall back on your script :-) |
| 15:55.24 | ScaredyCat | fine if it's the only kb around, not so fine otherwise |
| 15:55.39 | ScaredyCat | yes... well rephrased |
| 15:55.55 | Sup3rkiddo | ^.^ |
| 15:56.06 | wurp2 | yeah, thats why I'm glad I have both scripts. If you can dignify my three line thingy by calling it a script |
| 15:56.14 | zedstar_ | u can try my bluetooth to sqlite logger on the train to see what weird names people set on their devices ;) |
| 15:56.46 | ScaredyCat | heheh... |
| 15:56.47 | wurp2 | zedstar_: Yeah, I plan to put together a little logging thing that stores dated gps, gsm, and bt scan records in one log |
| 15:56.49 | Sup3rkiddo | i set mine to VIRUS, scanning for devices in a crowd is fun that way |
| 15:57.00 | ScaredyCat | I have my p910i set as "fuck off" |
| 15:57.17 | *** join/#openmoko N-Mi (n=nicolas@calvix/staff/N-Mi) |
| 15:57.29 | ScaredyCat | although now it belongs to swmbo |
| 15:57.37 | ScaredyCat | and she never uses bluetooth |
| 15:57.41 | zedstar_ | lol yeh some people put some weird stuff....some dutch guy has a project logging stuff there |
| 15:58.55 | ScaredyCat | "bluetooth error" |
| 15:59.01 | wurp2 | zedstar_: Once I get a FR I'll integrate logging accelerometer data in there |
| 15:59.18 | ScaredyCat | so you can log your wrist action? |
| 15:59.20 | ScaredyCat | :P |
| 15:59.25 | zedstar_ | wurp2 yeh i like all this stuff |
| 15:59.28 | cb22 | wurp2: you forgot wifi :) |
| 15:59.42 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: Yep, I have my gta01 strapped to my writch as a big watch |
| 15:59.46 | wurp2 | cb22: Good point! |
| 16:00.04 | ScaredyCat | I didn't mean that... |
| 16:00.16 | wurp2 | I'm sure there's some kind of screwy data I can pull out with hidden Markov models correlating gps data & accelerometer |
| 16:00.24 | ScaredyCat | move your mind to the gutter, then reread my comment |
| 16:00.34 | cb22 | A quote from the glamo site 'The Glamo3365 Mobile Multimedia coProcessor boasts a 5M pixels digital photo resolution image processor. The MPEG4 codec enables 30 frames per second in up to VGA resolution, producing life-like video quality on a mobile phone display' |
| 16:00.36 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: I figured that's what you meant |
| 16:00.45 | tomjoad | Sup3rkiddo: I did the same thing on mine when I was in Las Vegas and kept trying to initiate connections to other peoples phones |
| 16:00.59 | zedstar_ | im gonna use the bluetooth MAC as an id to allow people to have random encounters and then alert u when u come back within distance of them etc |
| 16:01.02 | cb22 | A qupte from planet 'The Glamo fact sheet claims it can do MPEG-4 and H-263 encoding/decoding at 352×288, 30fps max and 640×480 at 12fps max.' |
| 16:01.06 | wurp2 | tomjoad: Heh, did anyone accept? |
| 16:01.18 | Sup3rkiddo | tomjoad, oh dang!..i thought i was the only one smart enough for doing such a thing |
| 16:01.20 | tomjoad | wurp2: Nope, I got no takers |
| 16:01.27 | wurp2 | zedstar_: Cool, great idea |
| 16:01.31 | cb22 | which one is correct? |
| 16:01.35 | Sup3rkiddo | but boy, do people spook out |
| 16:01.36 | ScaredyCat | did you see what bkruse is working on |
| 16:01.38 | zedstar_ | "social experiements" |
| 16:01.42 | wurp2 | zedstar_: I just know mining all that later will be fun |
| 16:02.07 | wurp2 | "Hey, the same person who I sit next to at work, I see at the mall on Sunday at 3:45 every week" |
| 16:02.14 | wurp2 | or whatever |
| 16:02.21 | wurp2 | Then you correlate all that stuff on the web |
| 16:02.21 | *** join/#openmoko Mathiasdm (n=Mathias@78-22-5-158.access.telenet.be) |
| 16:02.38 | wurp2 | And you can track all the movement of anyone who leaves bt on in their phone |
| 16:02.38 | zedstar_ | wurp2 yeh..basically being able to see if u move in similar circles to other like minded people |
| 16:03.02 | zedstar_ | basically i wanna study these social dynamics |
| 16:03.34 | ScaredyCat | yeah, yeah ... you just wanna stalk femles |
| 16:03.40 | ScaredyCat | females |
| 16:03.48 | *** part/#openmoko xMDKx (n=mdkcore@nat/mandriva/x-322b91ce00d16781) |
| 16:04.05 | zedstar_ | well ok i need to use this mase spray i bought |
| 16:04.21 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: You eliminate so many options when you restrict it to one gender |
| 16:04.27 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: At least you aren't restricting by species |
| 16:04.54 | zedstar_ | the fun part of these technologies is the unknown |
| 16:04.57 | ScaredyCat | well, ok, but zedstar_ is neuter :P |
| 16:05.08 | zedstar_ | obvious disclaimers required |
| 16:05.21 | *** join/#openmoko Quadduc (n=stian@193.216.73.219) |
| 16:05.42 | zedstar_ | yeh im not fussy on gender :) |
| 16:06.14 | *** join/#openmoko baze (n=baze@g228085078.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:07.31 | zedstar_ | i dont actually have that much left to implement on this bluetooth stalking stuff.....just really need to solve getting coordinates |
| 16:07.34 | *** join/#openmoko ||Leto|| (n=tomboy64@e178060220.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:08.51 | wurp2 | What kind of coordinates? |
| 16:08.59 | wurp2 | 'cause getting gps coordinates is super easy |
| 16:09.08 | wurp2 | Either install pythongps and pull it through their api |
| 16:09.19 | wurp2 | Or parse /tmp/nmeaMP output |
| 16:09.33 | wurp2 | I have a bash script to do the latter (which I got from SpeedEvil) |
| 16:09.36 | zedstar_ | well....im gonna use geoclue but it is more the point that gps doesnt work in trains, buses etc |
| 16:10.02 | wurp2 | zedstar_: Sure, there you're just SOL. But if you log gps all the time, you know where you were when you were close to the train |
| 16:10.04 | zedstar_ | but i can still get the gps reading later i guess after logging the bt id |
| 16:10.05 | wurp2 | And the time |
| 16:10.27 | wurp2 | So you know what train you were on, where it went... if you're determined, you can fill in the blanks later |
| 16:10.34 | zedstar_ | yeh |
| 16:10.46 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 16:10.57 | wurp2 | I get gps fix occasionally as long as I'm somewhat near a window anyway |
| 16:11.40 | ScaredyCat | points at bkruse again |
| 16:11.42 | zedstar_ | yeh it is time to fix etc...hopefully assisted gps will help....but i would like less accurate coords from GSM network if the biatches gavce it |
| 16:12.23 | ScaredyCat | dbus -> getCellId ? |
| 16:12.40 | zedstar_ | can get cellid but then need database lookup |
| 16:12.46 | wurp2 | If your neo clock is updated, and you have gps on, you can just log time in your bt info and correlate with gps.gz, anyway |
| 16:12.51 | zedstar_ | still not seen any decent open dbs |
| 16:13.02 | *** join/#openmoko slchen (n=slchen@118-167-176-9.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 16:13.07 | wurp2 | No extra work to do whatsoever other than make sure you don't delete gps.gz, and weave the two together later |
| 16:13.43 | wurp2 | zedstar_: Yeah, that's my sticking point too; getting good cell id info |
| 16:14.00 | wurp2 | Although I figured on making my own db |
| 16:14.04 | ScaredyCat | zedstar_: we have to build the db... |
| 16:14.08 | ScaredyCat | and make it free |
| 16:14.13 | zedstar_ | yeh i am up for that |
| 16:14.17 | wurp2 | I will mostly just grab the raw data, though. I dunno if I'll ever really use it. |
| 16:14.22 | ScaredyCat | really free I mean |
| 16:14.25 | zedstar_ | yeh |
| 16:14.57 | zedstar_ | i would definately help do that |
| 16:15.24 | ScaredyCat | we need to establish what data is needed.. to define a cell |
| 16:15.29 | ScaredyCat | and it's location |
| 16:15.41 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=rudi@dsbg-4db7b434.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 16:16.09 | zedstar_ | been a while i looked but they cellid info looks unique enough....they can change numbers and stuff to bust it but we just need always update data in the db |
| 16:16.15 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: Well, I think all we can get is cell id, strength, and gps coordinates |
| 16:16.49 | zedstar_ | im surprised nobody wrote this program in projects.openmoko.org |
| 16:16.54 | wurp2 | Of course, I'm not sure the point of building code to get cell info right now |
| 16:17.04 | wurp2 | We should wait until ophoned is out :-/ |
| 16:17.23 | ScaredyCat | wurp2: well, streetname, town, etc would be nice too |
| 16:17.33 | wurp2 | Does anyone know how ophoned and the Qtopia dialer work together in the ASU? |
| 16:17.57 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: I wouldn't put that in this db |
| 16:18.06 | ScaredyCat | I would... |
| 16:18.10 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: You get that by matching coords with OSM |
| 16:18.17 | wurp2 | Why dupe OSM's work? |
| 16:18.26 | ScaredyCat | then I have to rely on another db,... |
| 16:18.50 | wurp2 | I can see taking periodic snapshots of OSM |
| 16:18.53 | ScaredyCat | osm can import the data if they want... (might help them with gps to street mapping ) |
| 16:19.01 | wurp2 | But other than that, so what if you get info from another db? |
| 16:19.09 | *** join/#openmoko Savago (n=adenilso@192.100.104.170) |
| 16:19.27 | wurp2 | Data normalization is nice |
| 16:19.31 | ScaredyCat | wurp2: because I'm thinking about local db usage |
| 16:19.39 | ScaredyCat | offline |
| 16:20.05 | wurp2 | Yeah, so I would pull a copy of OSM. In fact, the end user almost certainly has a copy of OSM, for their own mapping software |
| 16:20.36 | ScaredyCat | you want to parse osm to get cell data? |
| 16:20.42 | ScaredyCat | yuk |
| 16:20.42 | wurp2 | no... |
| 16:20.47 | *** join/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@185-28.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 16:20.59 | ScaredyCat | well, that's what you'd be doing... |
| 16:21.00 | wurp2 | I want to parse OSM to correlate cell coord with a street name |
| 16:21.03 | wurp2 | If I ever wanted to do that |
| 16:21.06 | wurp2 | No, it isn't |
| 16:21.35 | zedstar_ | i think something that could be automated from a client would be a good start so i can wardrive and log cell towers |
| 16:21.37 | ScaredyCat | ok, but now you have a requirement for osm+reading just to get the street you;re on |
| 16:21.41 | wurp2 | And you're gonna be duplicating their effort for your own format & parsing that, if you don't use theirs |
| 16:21.47 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@209.167.232.100) |
| 16:22.20 | wurp2 | To me, the project is "finding cell tower locations" |
| 16:22.22 | ScaredyCat | I don;t care if you get the names from osm - but I want the names in the cell db |
| 16:22.33 | wurp2 | The only sensible format for cell tower locations is lat/long |
| 16:22.38 | zedstar_ | something like kismet but for cell towers |
| 16:22.46 | ScaredyCat | depends wurp2 |
| 16:22.53 | ScaredyCat | on what detail you want |
| 16:22.57 | ScaredyCat | 1 sec |
| 16:22.58 | wurp2 | If you want to attach a note, from whatever source, that gives an english description of the loc, that's great |
| 16:23.14 | zedstar_ | yeh web interface to submit extra info on the entry or something |
| 16:23.25 | ScaredyCat | it's like geo clue... |
| 16:23.40 | wurp2 | For my part, I would submit the info in lat/long, then add street info from OSM |
| 16:23.53 | ScaredyCat | i micht want you to know I'm in London, and zedstar_ to know I'm in Tesco on Oxford street |
| 16:24.06 | ScaredyCat | in London |
| 16:24.07 | wurp2 | And if I had the street info, but OSM didn't, ideally I would add it to OSM, then get it from therec |
| 16:24.08 | *** join/#openmoko baze_ (n=baze@f051080109.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:24.27 | ScaredyCat | right, but then you MUST have osm on the same device... |
| 16:24.37 | zedstar_ | i think fireagle does something i like that scaredycat |
| 16:24.41 | ScaredyCat | whichisn't always possible |
| 16:24.44 | *** join/#openmoko BHiggs (n=BHiggs__@mol92-4-89-82-193-86.dsl.club-internet.fr) |
| 16:24.47 | wurp2 | OK, if you have a db with cell tower locations in it (in the form of street addresses) |
| 16:24.50 | *** part/#openmoko igor321 (n=igor@185-28.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 16:24.52 | ScaredyCat | fireeagle? |
| 16:24.59 | wurp2 | And I know I'm about X meters from cell 1 and Y meters from cell 2 |
| 16:25.02 | *** part/#openmoko BHiggs (n=BHiggs__@mol92-4-89-82-193-86.dsl.club-internet.fr) |
| 16:25.02 | zedstar_ | yeh yahoo stuff |
| 16:25.20 | wurp2 | Using english addresses for the cell to figure out where the phone is sounds like a really bad idea |
| 16:25.23 | zedstar_ | let u find people in terms of descriptions like u gave |
| 16:25.32 | ScaredyCat | wurp2: no no no |
| 16:25.42 | wurp2 | If you use gps coords, you can triangulate the lat/long of the phone, then match taht into OSM, and give an accurate english name |
| 16:25.43 | ScaredyCat | it's not about finding out where the tower is... |
| 16:25.49 | wurp2 | It's about both |
| 16:25.53 | ScaredyCat | it's about what I tell YOU about where I am... |
| 16:25.58 | wurp2 | First it's about figuring out where the towers are |
| 16:26.05 | *** part/#openmoko manu_ (i=user23@errandal.sabotage-studio.com) |
| 16:26.17 | wurp2 | So later I can use the location of the towers to figure out where th ephone is |
| 16:26.17 | ScaredyCat | you don;t use the streetname as the lookup, obviously... |
| 16:26.24 | ScaredyCat | that's 'outbound' data |
| 16:26.25 | *** join/#openmoko ohiniho (n=opera@zli1-v-1-166.static.adsl.vol.cz) |
| 16:26.30 | zedstar_ | in my stuff all i do is calculate distance...so u can then do alerts if they are close or whatever |
| 16:26.36 | wurp2 | In neithe rcase would I want to use an english description of where the tower is |
| 16:27.07 | wurp2 | I would want to correlate the lat/long (whether for the tower, or calculated for the phone position from tower strenghts) with a street map to get english |
| 16:27.24 | wurp2 | If I wanted english |
| 16:27.32 | zedstar_ | and then i wiill use the bluetooth broadcast name as part of the alert so u can set it to what u like....eg annoymous crap |
| 16:27.46 | wurp2 | Actually, I might well correlate the lat/long with a user specific db... |
| 16:27.53 | wurp2 | So I can give info like "at Joe's house" |
| 16:27.56 | ScaredyCat | slaps wurp2 |
| 16:28.06 | wurp2 | but I wouldn't put that in a central db |
| 16:28.37 | wurp2 | Slap away, but *I'm* not the one proposing using english names to figure out locations :-) |
| 16:28.40 | zedstar_ | i guess there are 2 systems.....u want to show where u are u want only to let people know u are nearby |
| 16:28.54 | ScaredyCat | I didn't propose that ATALL |
| 16:29.08 | zedstar_ | im more interested in strangers than friends systems so i dont wanna show where i am exactly |
| 16:29.17 | ScaredyCat | like I said that's outbound data... |
| 16:29.48 | ScaredyCat | I can either tell you I'm at lat/lon, street, town, postcode, county, country |
| 16:30.08 | ScaredyCat | it;s about the granularity of what is offered out.. |
| 16:30.11 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: You were talking about putting english description of where the cell tower is in the db |
| 16:30.27 | zedstar_ | yeh....this is exactly how fireeagle does it scaredycat from what ive seen |
| 16:30.34 | ScaredyCat | I was talking about the streetname, town, postcode |
| 16:30.40 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: I agree completely, but you do that conversion *after* you figure out the phone's location based on the lat/long & strength of local towers |
| 16:30.54 | ScaredyCat | zedstar_ : gonna have a look at that |
| 16:31.16 | ScaredyCat | wurp2: well obviously you muppet... |
| 16:31.30 | ScaredyCat | but you don;t want to have to query another db to get that info |
| 16:31.51 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: Yes, I do |
| 16:31.57 | ScaredyCat | well, you can... |
| 16:31.59 | wurp2 | Otherwise, you can't give specific information |
| 16:31.59 | ScaredyCat | I don;t |
| 16:32.08 | wurp2 | You can only give coarse info |
| 16:32.31 | wurp2 | Because the english description of where the cell tower is is not going to be useful for fine grained info on where the phone is |
| 16:32.34 | ScaredyCat | of course you can... |
| 16:33.28 | ScaredyCat | bah! Fireeagle is invite only |
| 16:34.17 | wurp2 | "52 meters south by southwest of 3220 N. Crap Street, London" is not useful fine-grained location info |
| 16:34.42 | wurp2 | And that's all you can get, if all you have is english descriptions of tower locations (e.g. 3220 N. Crap Street as a cell tower loc) |
| 16:35.08 | ScaredyCat | wtf are you on about |
| 16:35.11 | wurp2 | Counterexample, please |
| 16:35.31 | dougt | i have a couple neo1973's. What is the latest flash for them? |
| 16:35.38 | ScaredyCat | you have, lat, lon, street, town, postcode, county, country |
| 16:35.51 | zedstar_ | yeh and i was at some place where they gave a talk and had invites and i missed then talk somehow |
| 16:35.52 | wurp2 | For the cell towers |
| 16:36.11 | zedstar_ | i could probaly find some invites if u do will send u |
| 16:36.20 | ScaredyCat | please |
| 16:36.53 | zedstar_ | u should join mobile monday mailing list scaredycat....all the industry gits on there and give out stuff all the time |
| 16:36.57 | dougt | or should I just get some freerunners and focus on that? |
| 16:37.18 | ScaredyCat | zedstar_ the what? |
| 16:37.32 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: OK, since you can't/won't support your argument, I will ignore it :-) |
| 16:37.57 | ScaredyCat | stabs wurp2 for blindness |
| 16:38.19 | zedstar_ | scaredycat: http://mobilemonday.org.uk/ there is some yahoo mailing list |
| 16:38.34 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: Give me one example of what fine grained phone loc info would look like, if you based it on english description of cell tower locations |
| 16:38.44 | ScaredyCat | ta zedstar_ |
| 16:39.02 | wurp2 | dougt: I recommend using ScaredyCat's 20080611 flash |
| 16:39.04 | zedstar_ | i sometimes go to those events but it is a bit too corporate for my liking.....free booze tho |
| 16:40.24 | dougt | i love you ScaredyCat. please don't own me if I use your flash. |
| 16:40.32 | dougt | wurp2: link? |
| 16:40.49 | dougt | wurp2: also is there a scratchbox sdk for open moko? |
| 16:41.42 | wurp2 | dougt: Look at Repositories on wiki.openmoko.org |
| 16:41.54 | wurp2 | To find the link to ScaredyCat's repository |
| 16:41.56 | Sup3rkiddo | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:42.06 | wurp2 | dougt: I know nothing about scratchbox |
| 16:42.36 | dougt | ah cool, someone is going to but a vmware image up. |
| 16:42.50 | dougt | that would help developers a bunch getting the toolchain all setup. |
| 16:42.53 | *** join/#openmoko ajbrun (n=ajbrun@host86-157-22-228.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) |
| 16:43.01 | wurp2 | dougt: How old is that info? |
| 16:43.25 | zedstar_ | we should probably create a project on projects.openmoko.org and use the mailing list/forum or whatever to try and come up with an open db |
| 16:43.46 | dougt | wurp2: just a dead link on the front page of the wiki. |
| 16:43.50 | dougt | under Developer |
| 16:43.59 | *** join/#openmoko kdean06 (n=kdean06@fsf/member/kdean06) |
| 16:44.16 | *** join/#openmoko holycow (n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com) |
| 16:44.47 | wurp2 | dougt: afaik that never happened :-( |
| 16:45.03 | dougt | yeah. :-) |
| 16:45.37 | zedstar_ | i thing about running these kinda open services they need to be on neuteral trusted servers......that data can be valuable |
| 16:47.36 | wurp2 | zedstar_: We could have everyone sign the data they submit |
| 16:48.05 | wurp2 | zedstar_: And maybe submit to two different servers owned by different people, which then cross-check to make sure both have everything |
| 16:48.28 | zedstar_ | yeh but i mean ownership....say i run it from my server why trust me i could of and sell the data......right multiple could solve that |
| 16:48.33 | wurp2 | zedstar_: But to my mind, the first thing to do is just get it going. So many projects die before they really get started |
| 16:48.42 | zedstar_ | sure |
| 16:49.20 | wurp2 | I prefer to store the data as raw as we can, before we preprocess & throw information away |
| 16:50.02 | wurp2 | I mean, putting decimal points in the right places in the raw nmea info is one thing :-) but reformatting gps info to a "standard" number of significant digits is another, since it potentially throws info away |
| 16:50.31 | dougt | gta01 == neo1973, right? |
| 16:50.38 | zedstar_ | yeh.....an sqlite table? |
| 16:50.39 | zash | yes |
| 16:50.45 | zash | dougt: |
| 16:50.51 | dougt | ty |
| 16:50.53 | *** join/#openmoko malik1972 (n=malik197@e182059162.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:51.00 | zash | and gta02 == freerunner |
| 16:51.50 | *** join/#openmoko KillaloT (n=killalot@87.56.204.198) |
| 16:52.01 | *** join/#openmoko avoine (n=avoine@pdpc/supporter/active/avoine) |
| 16:54.16 | *** part/#openmoko malik1972 (n=malik197@e182059162.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:55.25 | *** join/#openmoko Quadduc (n=stian@193.216.73.219) |
| 16:55.32 | *** join/#openmoko tedo (n=cta@HSI-KBW-085-216-123-026.hsi.kabelbw.de) |
| 17:02.09 | wurp2 | zedstar_: We might consider Google Base as one of the places to store the data |
| 17:03.30 | wurp2 | zedstar_: In fact, though, another project for generic distributed databases for open data is probably the right way to deal with it :-) |
| 17:03.41 | zedstar_ | wurp2 not seen google base...but wouldnt this require always a connection to lookup the data or u mean mirror the data to google base? |
| 17:05.17 | wurp2 | zedstar_: I mean mirror to there. I was talking about the solution for keeping data out from under one entity's control |
| 17:05.42 | wurp2 | Not the solution for having cell tower data that the phone uses directly |
| 17:06.15 | wurp2 | I would expect the latter would be a local db that gets synced regularly with one or more of the central servers |
| 17:08.14 | *** join/#openmoko linuxxr (n=brian@ip70-178-27-23.ks.ks.cox.net) |
| 17:08.19 | *** join/#openmoko cekay (n=cekay@xdsl-213-196-255-177.netcologne.de) |
| 17:08.34 | zedstar_ | wurp2 yeh and we have all the tools on the device to sync a db file from it |
| 17:10.10 | *** join/#openmoko spydon (n=spydon@h12n6c1o1036.bredband.skanova.com) |
| 17:11.00 | linuxxr | wat does smt is running mean? |
| 17:11.08 | *** join/#openmoko alexxy (n=alexxy@79.173.81.171) |
| 17:11.12 | linuxxr | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:11.27 | SpeedEvil | SMT = surface mount technology |
| 17:11.33 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervisco) |
| 17:11.43 | SpeedEvil | I'd guess it means they're sticking the bits on the boars ATM. |
| 17:11.45 | SpeedEvil | ^d |
| 17:11.48 | linuxxr | so they are assemling boards? |
| 17:11.58 | linuxxr | b |
| 17:12.57 | *** join/#openmoko krau (n=cktakaha@189.70.82.124) |
| 17:15.01 | SpeedEvil | Hopefully. |
| 17:18.47 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@70-1-143-169.area1.spcsdns.net) |
| 17:18.49 | linuxxr | hopefully they are putting phones in boxn |
| 17:19.17 | *** join/#openmoko Quadduc (n=stian@193.216.73.219) |
| 17:20.04 | *** part/#openmoko ohiniho (n=opera@zli1-v-1-166.static.adsl.vol.cz) |
| 17:20.21 | *** join/#openmoko ohiniho (n=opera@zli1-v-1-166.static.adsl.vol.cz) |
| 17:21.21 | linuxxr | i hope they ship them in something other that that black box |
| 17:21.28 | linuxxr | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:21.46 | zash | linuxxr: the lunchbox or the black paperbox? |
| 17:21.57 | linuxxr | they will be getting picked off left an right |
| 17:22.38 | linuxxr | can u still get the dec box with the freerunner? |
| 17:22.45 | linuxxr | *dev |
| 17:22.49 | SpeedEvil | no |
| 17:23.02 | *** join/#openmoko fgau (n=fgau@62.8.133.125) |
| 17:23.02 | SpeedEvil | Not the linchbox i you mean. |
| 17:23.07 | linuxxr | yyup |
| 17:24.08 | linuxxr | y the black paper box will be in another box for shipping right? |
| 17:24.41 | *** join/#openmoko henkie (i=not@tdlnx.student.utwente.nl) |
| 17:24.58 | SpeedEvil | The box has a cutout, to show the screen, and the destination address is shown on the screen. There is an auxillary USB battery. |
| 17:25.00 | SpeedEvil | (*) |
| 17:25.14 | SpeedEvil | *) This information may be completely made up. |
| 17:25.19 | zash | :D |
| 17:26.46 | henkie | cant wait for the summer :) |
| 17:26.58 | zash | http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/06/11/openmoko-freerunner-gets-reviewed-early/ |
| 17:26.59 | henkie | openmoko phone and kde4 :) |
| 17:27.14 | zash | there is a pic of the current box |
| 17:27.20 | kdean06 | Snap. |
| 17:27.25 | henkie | and ofcourse the usual summer stuff |
| 17:27.29 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 17:32.03 | wurp2 | henkie: Do you live in the southern hemisphere? |
| 17:32.21 | *** join/#openmoko andrenarchy (n=andrenar@dslb-084-057-091-060.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 17:32.35 | wurp2 | 'cause it's summer now, where I live |
| 17:32.50 | CVirus | it's 31C where i live now |
| 17:32.52 | henkie | wurp2, i dont believe so :) |
| 17:33.20 | henkie | wurp2, not for me yet |
| 17:33.55 | *** join/#openmoko Kt_ (n=Kirsat@96.243.196.167) |
| 17:34.24 | henkie | i live in the crazy part of europe where it is still spring :) |
| 17:34.35 | zash | henkie: what part is that? |
| 17:34.48 | wurp2 | henkie: I thought so. Your nick looks like an abbrev for Henrik |
| 17:34.49 | henkie | zash, netherlands |
| 17:34.59 | wurp2 | That I've heard for ppl from Sweden |
| 17:35.26 | spydon | it's not spring in sweden... |
| 17:35.34 | buz | feels like early spring switzerland today |
| 17:35.40 | wurp2 | I guess it didn't occur to me that mid-June is still spring in scandinavia :-) |
| 17:35.41 | *** join/#openmoko Kt_ (n=Kirsat@96.243.196.167) |
| 17:35.44 | zash | more like summer in .se actualy |
| 17:35.56 | spydon | yeah |
| 17:35.57 | buz | it's actually quite normal in middle europe to have bad weather in first half of june |
| 17:36.42 | henkie | well, we could all look it up on wikipedia :) |
| 17:36.48 | henkie | but i'll rephrase |
| 17:36.49 | spydon | ^^ |
| 17:36.55 | henkie | cant wait for the mid-summer :) |
| 17:37.01 | buz | that was personal experience, really :P |
| 17:37.03 | *** join/#openmoko tsuramoto (n=tashiro@a82-92-30-111.adsl.xs4all.nl) |
| 17:37.16 | henkie | yeah, today was all rain for me |
| 17:37.30 | henkie | and i still had to work |
| 17:37.47 | zash | what, you have to work when its raining?!? |
| 17:37.48 | zash | ;) |
| 17:38.05 | henkie | zash, yeah, crazy rules we have |
| 17:38.17 | *** join/#openmoko fifafrazer (n=as@87.56.204.198) |
| 17:39.19 | *** join/#openmoko Savago (n=adenilso@192.100.104.170) |
| 17:40.18 | *** join/#openmoko pH5 (n=ph5@e178236040.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 17:42.05 | dougt | what is the "slash" in the OpenMoko Flasher? |
| 17:42.12 | dougt | "splash", rather. |
| 17:42.42 | mmontour | It's the picture that u-boot shows when you turn the phone on |
| 17:42.43 | henkie | the sound it makes if you throw in water? |
| 17:42.56 | *** join/#openmoko manu___ (n=manu@gen92-4-82-235-9-30.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 17:43.04 | wurp2 | henkie: That's the 'bzzt' |
| 17:43.14 | dougt | mmontour: that is what thought. thanks. |
| 17:43.26 | dougt | henkie: yeah, i had that coming to me, didnt I? |
| 17:43.42 | henkie | :) |
| 17:44.36 | dougt | meow. lol. |
| 17:46.14 | wurp2 | dougt: That's the sound the neo makes when it boots |
| 17:53.17 | *** join/#openmoko pyknite (n=pyknite@83.68.218.53) |
| 17:53.48 | *** topic/#openmoko by pyknite -> No, Freerunner is not out yet, but dvfmass production has started. Official updates at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates . | ASU means April Software Update and is coming soon. |
| 17:53.54 | *** topic/#openmoko by pyknite -> No, Freerunner is not out yet, but mass production has started. Official updates at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates . | ASU means April Software Update and is coming soon. |
| 17:54.05 | pyknite | sry :( |
| 17:56.46 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: superficially, it looks as if my sound issues with 20080611 come after making/receiving a call |
| 17:57.06 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: sound was working, then I made a call, now media player is silent again |
| 17:57.55 | *** join/#openmoko trickie (n=trickie@hgaulton.xs4all.nl) |
| 18:04.53 | *** join/#openmoko kdean06 (n=kdean06@fsf/member/kdean06) |
| 18:17.36 | cb22 | 'The Glamo fact sheet claims it can do MPEG-4 and H-263 encoding/decoding' - mencoder interface, anyone? :) |
| 18:19.11 | SpeedEvil | It may be only from camera. |
| 18:19.48 | *** part/#openmoko rcxdude (n=rcxdude@host81-153-198-60.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 18:20.04 | broonie | http://unadventure.wordpress.com/2008/06/08/accelerating-in-my-pocket/ |
| 18:20.13 | cb22 | yeah, that would suck :/ SpeedEvil do you know if the glamo in the freerunner is the 3365 or the 3362? |
| 18:20.38 | cb22 | i always thought it was the 3362, but i've heard some conflicting evidence - like someone working on the audio decoder part |
| 18:20.38 | SpeedEvil | I don't. |
| 18:20.47 | *** join/#openmoko rcxdude (n=rcxdude@host81-153-198-60.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 18:20.55 | SpeedEvil | balrog: claimed that there was a mp3 decoder |
| 18:21.32 | cb22 | yeah, which according to the glamo site has only qvga support and is the 3362 |
| 18:21.39 | cb22 | s/3362/3365/ |
| 18:21.51 | broonie | cb22: Are you sure you're not confusing MP3 and MP4 here? |
| 18:22.29 | cb22 | broonie: think i'm sure |
| 18:22.53 | cb22 | in one screenshot, it says 'Found Glamo 3362 with 3365 core' |
| 18:23.43 | cb22 | mp3 decoding would be cool, thats like 5-10% of cpu saved, i think |
| 18:23.53 | cb22 | (i remember hearing those figures somewhere) |
| 18:24.40 | cb22 | and the glamo could be more power efficent then the cpu, allowing the cpu to be in slow mode just feeding data to the glamo when playing mp3s? |
| 18:26.54 | SpeedEvil | the other issue is can the iis bus work at slow speed,. |
| 18:27.29 | SpeedEvil | On that topic. can anyone dcc me the 2442 datasheet? |
| 18:27.46 | *** join/#openmoko dj_ (n=dj@88-111-48-150.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 18:28.19 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 18:28.21 | *** part/#openmoko ohiniho (n=opera@zli1-v-1-166.static.adsl.vol.cz) |
| 18:29.07 | tedo | is the dac working at a fixed sampling frequency or is it configurable via the driver? |
| 18:29.42 | SpeedEvil | configurable in principle AIUI |
| 18:30.01 | tedo | AIUI? |
| 18:30.13 | cb22 | as i understand it |
| 18:31.00 | tedo | ok, thx. So the clock for is dac is supplied by the cpu? |
| 18:32.18 | *** join/#openmoko Heinervdm (n=thomas@pD9E151E1.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:36.58 | CIA-44 | openmoko: 03zecke * r42682dcd9ebd 10/ (2 files in 2 dirs): [mms] Disable MMS support for the neo devices |
| 18:37.35 | wurp2 | *disable* mms support? |
| 18:37.38 | wurp2 | :-( |
| 18:37.50 | wurp2 | I mean, not that it was really supported before, but... |
| 18:37.55 | mickeyl | :) |
| 18:38.02 | SpeedEvil | MMS is not required for SD |
| 18:38.05 | SpeedEvil | Err |
| 18:38.07 | SpeedEvil | MMC I mean |
| 18:38.10 | wurp2 | I wouldn't think so :-) |
| 18:38.11 | SpeedEvil | wonders what MMS is |
| 18:38.13 | Qwell | MMC? |
| 18:38.18 | wurp2 | multimedia message |
| 18:38.20 | Qwell | multimedia |
| 18:38.22 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 18:38.54 | *** join/#openmoko baze (n=baze@f051080109.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 18:39.03 | wurp2 | I was thinking mmc when I first saw it, too. Google straightened me out. |
| 18:39.08 | SuN | The concept of MMS is nice, but I have yet to use it. |
| 18:39.14 | wurp2 | I get them |
| 18:39.28 | wurp2 | I have never sent one |
| 18:39.42 | Qwell | what's MMC? |
| 18:39.51 | Qwell | wait, nevermind |
| 18:39.54 | SuN | MultiMedia Card |
| 18:40.00 | Qwell | yeah.. |
| 18:40.19 | cb22 | MMS is used by teenage girls to send pictures of themselves around, i've yet heard of another use for it :p |
| 18:40.30 | Qwell | wait, so why is that bad? |
| 18:40.43 | wurp2 | We need an IRC client that takes "What's X" as a command, and pops up the google results instead of actually sending the Q to the channel |
| 18:40.49 | cb22 | maybe zcke has a daughter? |
| 18:42.04 | CVirus | wurp2: a bot would do the job |
| 18:42.16 | Qwell | ~mmc |
| 18:42.17 | apt | somebody said mmc was MultiMediaCard mentioned at http://www.handhelds.org/z/wiki/IpaqHardwareCompatibilityStorage or at http://www.zauruszone.farplanet.net/wiki/index.php?MMC%20or%20SD%20card, or http://hacking.the.cia.com/~knight/ZaurusIndex.php |
| 18:42.19 | Qwell | yep |
| 18:42.25 | wurp2 | ~mms |
| 18:42.25 | apt | i guess mms is console mpg123 frontend, with nice ncurses interface which can be found in debian source format at http://yacoob.dnsalias.net/debian/, or the protocol used by Windows Media Player (probably stands for Mostly Microsoft Stuff), or mplayer -dumpstream mms://blah |
| 18:42.34 | wurp2 | heh |
| 18:42.38 | cb22 | hehe |
| 18:42.48 | *** join/#openmoko haakeyar (n=haakeyar@c9C364BC1.dhcp.bluecom.no) |
| 18:43.04 | *** join/#openmoko emonkey (n=emonkey@ubuntu/member/emonkey) |
| 18:43.58 | *** join/#openmoko HauDyr (n=kim@knet-gip124.prod.bolignet.dk) |
| 18:44.34 | *** join/#openmoko fsteinel (n=fsteinel@pD9FBC30D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:44.38 | *** part/#openmoko tedo (n=cta@HSI-KBW-085-216-123-026.hsi.kabelbw.de) |
| 18:45.59 | *** join/#openmoko neldoreth (n=ascot@81-223-127-237.stpeter.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 18:49.30 | HauDyr | Has any one tried using Targus Bluetooth Mobile ThumbPad on OpenMoko, or what bluetooth keyboard would you suggest to use |
| 18:49.49 | wurp2 | HauDyr: afaik they all work fine |
| 18:50.11 | wurp2 | HauDyr: I use the iGo Think Outside keyboar |
| 18:50.12 | wurp2 | d |
| 18:50.37 | wurp2 | The bad thing about it is no number line; you have to use a fn key to access numbers & shifted number symbols |
| 18:50.48 | wurp2 | The great thing about it is it folds up, and is in my front pocket all the time |
| 18:50.57 | HauDyr | cool |
| 18:51.13 | wurp2 | I think you can get one for $60 |
| 18:51.32 | wurp2 | I also hear people rave about the apple bt keyboard for the neo |
| 18:51.41 | wurp2 | but it doesn't fit in your pocket |
| 18:51.55 | SpeedEvil | passes wurp2 a needle and thread. |
| 18:51.58 | cb22 | do they make it in black? |
| 18:52.11 | cb22 | (like my soul ): |
| 18:52.27 | SpeedEvil | passes wurp2 a book entitled 'back-holster patterns for the cyber-warrior'. |
| 18:52.52 | wurp2 | Oh, and the iGo also has a little stand - I can put my neo in landscape mode and use it as a laptop |
| 18:54.03 | cb22 | wants to use his e51(hsdpa modem), bluetooth keyboard and bluetooth headphones with the freerunner. |
| 18:54.08 | *** part/#openmoko mboldisc (n=mike@c-66-41-225-167.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 18:54.19 | cb22 | can it do >1 bluetooth connections? |
| 18:54.24 | mjr | sure |
| 18:54.48 | *** join/#openmoko malik1972 (n=malik197@e182051153.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 18:54.54 | HauDyr | wurp2, ill see what i can get across the pond in Denmark |
| 18:55.37 | wurp2 | cb22: Not afaik |
| 18:55.42 | *** join/#openmoko zmedico (n=zmedico@gentoo/developer/zmedico) |
| 18:55.51 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: I'm happy with my hip-mounted neo & fold up kbd in my pocket |
| 18:56.00 | wurp2 | Now I just want HUD |
| 18:56.09 | wurp2 | And a reliable software stack :-) |
| 18:56.40 | wurp2 | cb22: That was it doesn't come in black afaik, not about multiple bt connections |
| 18:56.46 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@209.167.232.100) |
| 18:56.47 | cb22 | ah, cool :) |
| 18:57.05 | cb22 | oh well, my current bluetooth keyboard will be just fine |
| 18:57.09 | wurp2 | I have a bad habit of reading messages I missed & replying in order, w/o reading all of them first |
| 18:57.54 | *** join/#openmoko andrenarchy (n=andrenar@dslb-084-057-091-060.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 18:59.40 | wurp2 | Now sound is broken in my ScaredyCat release again, and I can't get it to come back after multiple reboots and playing with settings :-( |
| 19:01.49 | wurp2 | OK, now it's back :-) |
| 19:02.02 | wurp2 | For some reason it seems to keep switching into non-stereoout mode |
| 19:02.05 | HauDyr | if i guess that i can order a Neo FreeRunner in about 2 months, am i right? |
| 19:02.21 | wurp2 | HauDyr: I would think you could get one then or before |
| 19:02.26 | wurp2 | HauDyr: They are mass producing now |
| 19:02.52 | wurp2 | HauDyr: I think you can preorder at trisoft.de now |
| 19:03.04 | HauDyr | ok |
| 19:04.05 | *** join/#openmoko CMatters (n=lowell@nv-76-2-149-218.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 19:04.14 | *** join/#openmoko Ryback_ (n=ulisses@enlightenment/developer/ryback) |
| 19:04.52 | *** join/#openmoko suuuper (n=suuuper@ppp-252-176.32-151.iol.it) |
| 19:05.03 | HauDyr | wurp2, ok so my guess was a little conservative :-) |
| 19:05.33 | wurp2 | HauDyr: Well, I hope so |
| 19:05.42 | HauDyr | me to |
| 19:05.53 | *** join/#openmoko Quadduc (n=stian@193.216.73.219) |
| 19:05.54 | wurp2 | HauDyr: But I really thought it would be out in April, based on what OM was saying |
| 19:06.15 | wurp2 | And they keep seeming to recant... when they say we are CLEAR FOR MASS PRODUCTION |
| 19:06.27 | HauDyr | yup that date passed very fast |
| 19:06.32 | Qwell | ~define recant |
| 19:06.32 | apt | Use ~dict for definitions. |
| 19:06.33 | wurp2 | Then 2-3 weeks later they say OK, we're putting chips on boards now |
| 19:07.14 | *** join/#openmoko Mathiasdm (n=Mathias@78-22-5-158.access.telenet.be) |
| 19:07.58 | wurp2 | To me, "we've been running the factory lines and producing FRs, we just need to get the error count low enough" + "the error count is low enough, we are CLEAR TO MASS PRODUCE" = we will be mass producing starting in the next couple of days |
| 19:08.41 | wurp2 | I suspect the people making those statements didn't think they were misleading at all, and it was obvious to them that there were extra steps in the way, but I saw no sign of that info being conveyed |
| 19:10.47 | jamasi | as we're talking about mass production: how many units will be produced in the first run? |
| 19:11.07 | jamasi | 10k, 100k? |
| 19:11.16 | cb22 | 1k? |
| 19:11.25 | HauDyr | i hope more than 1k |
| 19:11.31 | wurp2 | I would guess 1k to 10k |
| 19:11.41 | cb22 | maybe 5k or so |
| 19:11.47 | jamasi | I'd hardly call 1k "mass" |
| 19:11.51 | SpeedEvil | I'm guessing 3141.5 |
| 19:12.15 | SpeedEvil | (the last one has a 16 bit CPU) |
| 19:12.17 | cb22 | .5? that can be your phone :) |
| 19:12.25 | HauDyr | i will only pay half for the last one |
| 19:12.58 | Qwell | HauDyr: it's collectible - you'll have to pay 8x as much |
| 19:13.13 | HauDyr | aah |
| 19:14.08 | cb22 | maybe the last .5 will really be a gta03 - its half as big |
| 19:14.54 | wurp2 | Oh, I recommend if you order screen protectors from navprotector, get them about 4mm too big in each direction |
| 19:15.23 | wurp2 | I asked for 43 x 58 and what I got is about 2 mm smaller than my screen in each direction, so the edges are unprotected |
| 19:15.26 | mjr | 4mm too thick? I don't think so |
| 19:15.46 | Qwell | or...maybe they just cut it wrong? |
| 19:15.49 | wurp2 | What I wanted was to take the cover off and put it on covering the whole screen, then put it back on |
| 19:16.23 | *** part/#openmoko pyknite (n=pyknite@83.68.218.53) |
| 19:16.24 | wurp2 | I don't think so. I think they assume you're sending screen specs from the manufacturer (as I was) and that you want something that will fit on the visible part of the screen so you don't have to cut it down or take the device apart |
| 19:16.48 | wurp2 | But that's just speculation on my part |
| 19:17.21 | wurp2 | mjr: I'm not going to dignify that with a response (other than this one) ;-) |
| 19:18.53 | *** join/#openmoko Bish (n=lala@p4FC4D88B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:20.08 | SpeedEvil | mwbrown: for more info - look at http://www.amazon.co.uk/Neo1973_usb_accessories/dp/B000XXZQAI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1213384468&sr=8-1 |
| 19:20.10 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 19:20.20 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:20.23 | SpeedEvil | mehs. |
| 19:21.45 | Bish | me moohs |
| 19:22.47 | *** join/#openmoko apol (n=apol@84.78.178.63) |
| 19:22.51 | wurp2 | OK, how the hell did that end up under neo1973 usb accessories? |
| 19:22.55 | CIA-44 | openmoko: 03zecke * r296327a16d20 10/src/applications/clock/alarm.cpp: [clock] On click the day select was shown even when the alarm is disabled (#1466) |
| 19:23.02 | SpeedEvil | You can make up whatever string you like. |
| 19:23.16 | *** part/#openmoko malik1972 (n=malik197@e182051153.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 19:23.21 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:24.12 | wurp2 | Now everyone knows how I keep my trim figure |
| 19:26.22 | cb22 | you pole dance? |
| 19:27.05 | SpeedEvil | sighs. |
| 19:27.22 | SpeedEvil | Amazon.com used to have a much better search than amazon.co.uk. |
| 19:27.24 | wurp2 | Gotta keep fit somehow. |
| 19:28.11 | SpeedEvil | You could search for stuff like paperback books in print (not preorder) sorted by release date in the last month in the category SF. |
| 19:28.35 | SpeedEvil | Of course, now they've 'fixed' it, and there is one search on UK and US sites. |
| 19:28.44 | SpeedEvil | And not the good one. |
| 19:30.47 | Bish | can someone tell me the difference between ret and retn |
| 19:31.28 | ljp | one 'n' |
| 19:31.37 | Bish | man u guys are funny -_- |
| 19:32.50 | SpeedEvil | Depends on assembler. |
| 19:33.22 | *** join/#openmoko emilis_info (n=emilis@clt-84-32-58-67.vdnet.lt) |
| 19:34.03 | CVirus | Nokia's vice president of software and head of the Finnish |
| 19:34.03 | CVirus | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:34.03 | CVirus | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:34.03 | CVirus | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:34.03 | CVirus | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:34.17 | CVirus | educate ass you fucktards |
| 19:34.20 | CVirus | us* |
| 19:34.36 | cb22 | haha pls do work for free so we can exploit u, kthxbai |
| 19:34.55 | CVirus | fuck you nokia |
| 19:35.41 | mjr | yeah I already commented that the dude is working hard in promoting OpenMoko |
| 19:35.51 | holycow | lol |
| 19:35.59 | holycow | its amazing how people just 'don't get it' eh? |
| 19:37.31 | CVirus | http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jun2008/gb20080612_288518.htm |
| 19:38.01 | *** join/#openmoko Kt_ (n=Kirsat@96.243.196.167) |
| 19:39.47 | *** join/#openmoko HellDragon (i=jd@unaffiliated/helldragon) |
| 19:41.51 | *** join/#openmoko freelock (n=john@dsl231-045-091.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 19:42.02 | ljp | in defense of Ari, what he means is that Nokia's customers (the operators) demand DRM, etc. Without it, they just go elsewhere to get it |
| 19:42.35 | cb22 | thats true, but why should he expect the open source developers to care / help them? |
| 19:43.02 | ljp | I dont know. I made my own comments :) |
| 19:43.14 | *** join/#openmoko abraxa_ (n=abraxa@pD95FF0F1.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:43.18 | cb22 | DRM == pure evil |
| 19:43.55 | *** join/#openmoko poffy_ (n=ayoungbo@c-76-30-182-179.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 19:44.17 | mudyc | drm in theory won't work. in the end you always give the key with the encrypted content |
| 19:44.30 | cb22 | yep |
| 19:44.49 | holycow | CVirus: the funny thing is, of all the companies out there |
| 19:44.50 | mudyc | if you want to keep a secret you shall not distibute the key with the secret |
| 19:44.51 | ljp | DRM is not necessarily evil. it's supposed to enforce copyright. we all like copyrights, without it, GPL wont work |
| 19:44.53 | holycow | the only that gets it is redhat |
| 19:45.20 | holycow | i am absolutely astounded how they have kept to the true spirit of the gpl and still managed to make money |
| 19:45.25 | cb22 | ljp: but it invariable always ends up evil |
| 19:45.49 | cb22 | and it's just a flawed concept |
| 19:45.50 | mudyc | ljp: it's supposed to harm a fair use |
| 19:45.59 | holycow | ljp: it harms fair use |
| 19:46.00 | holycow | exactly |
| 19:46.04 | holycow | it restricts the user |
| 19:46.09 | holycow | it doesn't protect copyright at all |
| 19:46.16 | holycow | in effect its a form of control |
| 19:46.24 | holycow | copyright by its very nature protects the work |
| 19:46.37 | ljp | what do you thin copyright does? it also puts restrictions on 'users' |
| 19:46.42 | holycow | the problem is that people that want drm are basically trying to apply an economic model where it doesn't belong |
| 19:47.00 | holycow | data wants to be free and one cannot stop that |
| 19:47.06 | ljp | possibly |
| 19:47.08 | holycow | the nature of data is that it will spread and leak everywhere |
| 19:47.20 | wurp2 | mudyc: DRM could work if implemented down at the hw level, so hw will only run signed code |
| 19:47.25 | holycow | what they want to do with drm is apply 'limited supply' idea to something that has an infinite supply |
| 19:47.28 | wurp2 | mudyc: And if only such restricted hw was sold |
| 19:47.34 | cb22 | wurp2: and then you get extreamly skilled people |
| 19:47.37 | holycow | you cannot put limits on ideas like you can on say a physical widget |
| 19:47.40 | wurp2 | But it would be way more evil than the problem it's trying to solve |
| 19:47.44 | mjr | wouldn't mind copyleft not working if copyright was ditched, it's mostly necessary as a counterbalance anyway... |
| 19:47.45 | holycow | in other words its about control |
| 19:47.47 | cb22 | who manage to crack it and publish a key or so |
| 19:48.05 | holycow | personally i think copyright works great, except where its time limit is too long |
| 19:48.22 | holycow | copyright is what allows open source/freedom to keep on going |
| 19:48.22 | ljp | http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/ |
| 19:48.25 | wurp2 | cb22: Sure, some people would bypass it. But if you don't have unrestricted physical hardware, you're screwed, so who cares if 1/10th of 1% of people can bypass |
| 19:48.27 | holycow | without copyright you get the bsd situation |
| 19:48.28 | mmontour | ljp: "copyright" is an outdated concept. It is not the act of copying that needs to be controlled; it's things like claiming authorship, distributing for profit, etc. |
| 19:48.36 | holycow | where anyone can take your work and not be forced to give back |
| 19:48.43 | holycow | mmontour: i humbly disagree |
| 19:48.49 | holycow | copyright is PERFECTLY designed |
| 19:48.51 | mmontour | You "copy" a file every time you load it from disk into RAM, again into CPU cache, etc. |
| 19:49.14 | holycow | thats fine, a copy is a copy |
| 19:49.21 | holycow | when you read it you create a virtual copy of it in your head |
| 19:49.22 | mudyc | wurp2: there's quite many holes on the way. i haven't seen such device and don't want them to exist |
| 19:49.24 | holycow | it makes no difference |
| 19:49.43 | mmontour | Many software EULAs permit you to make "1 backup copy". Too bad if you want to keep additional daily/weekly snapshots, etc. |
| 19:49.48 | cb22 | wurp2: doesnt matter, if one person steals the private key... |
| 19:50.35 | ljp | Bruce Perens blog about it is good |
| 19:50.40 | wurp2 | mudyc: Oh, no, me neither |
| 19:50.52 | ljp | http://technocrat.net/d/2008/6/11/43198 |
| 19:50.52 | wurp2 | cb22: True, if someone steals the private key |
| 19:51.42 | ljp | i am hoping knowledge about OSS will seep into the higher echelons of Nokia from Trolltech |
| 19:51.51 | wurp2 | cb22: Although a smart implementation would probably require authentication at the hw level by e.g. 10 diff private key signatures, then age out keys over time. Old hardware would eventually be broken, but that's not really important |
| 19:51.57 | holycow | ljp: amazing amount of ignorance |
| 19:52.13 | holycow | ljp: the articles on the topic actually remind me of conversations i've had with noobs |
| 19:52.20 | cb22 | wurp2: if something like that had to be implimented on a big scale, the keys would all be stolen |
| 19:52.24 | holycow | who just coudn't understand how the gpl exchange works |
| 19:52.32 | holycow | and how people are willing to do this for free |
| 19:52.32 | wurp2 | I think we're mostly past the potential travesty of DRM mandated at the low level of all computing hw |
| 19:52.44 | cb22 | imagine suddenly all avalble motherboard would only run signed code |
| 19:52.46 | ljp | holycow: knowledge and education are everything. |
| 19:52.53 | cb22 | how long before its cracked? |
| 19:53.00 | holycow | ljp: agreed |
| 19:53.04 | cb22 | 1 day? |
| 19:53.10 | wurp2 | cb22: I doubt that. There is more incentive to steal Verisign's keys, but they remain private. |
| 19:53.27 | ljp | holycow: do not blame people for their ignorance. its only a matter of knowledge |
| 19:53.39 | wurp2 | cb22: Standard pub/priv key algorithms are quite secure... |
| 19:53.43 | cb22 | wurp2: yes, but stealing verizon's keys would not be 'good' |
| 19:53.44 | holycow | well i'll only disagree on the fact that its not my job to educate them |
| 19:53.46 | holycow | its theirs |
| 19:53.50 | holycow | thus i blame people for their ignorance |
| 19:54.06 | ljp | Ari is correct though - OSS devs DO need to lean more about DRM, etc. doesnt mean we need to agree about it |
| 19:54.13 | cb22 | if some guy steals the private key and gives everyone freedom, he'll kinda be a hero |
| 19:54.14 | wurp2 | cb22: I don't think the fact that it's the right thing to do would significantly impact the likelihood of it happening :-( |
| 19:54.19 | holycow | ljp: there is nothing to learn |
| 19:54.25 | holycow | drm is a simple encryption scheme |
| 19:54.28 | holycow | we already have the tools |
| 19:54.29 | holycow | infact |
| 19:54.30 | CIA-44 | freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * r20444115c50f 10/odeviced/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Use a single connection througout under a common namespace |
| 19:54.34 | holycow | sun release their drm tools as open source |
| 19:54.45 | wurp2 | cb22: Except if a guy steals a key, it would affect nothing... only if 10 guys stole all 10 keys |
| 19:54.51 | holycow | we are the ones who hacked the copyright law to use it against the greedy |
| 19:54.55 | holycow | *thank you rms!* |
| 19:54.58 | ljp | holycow: need to learn WHY they think they need it, so we can properly educate them |
| 19:55.08 | holycow | we are the ones that understand the ins and outs of buisness works and how oss fits and odesn't fit |
| 19:55.10 | holycow | not the other way around |
| 19:55.15 | wurp2 | And if someone advertises "hey, I have key #3, someone get the ohters", then manufacturers immediately stop using key #3 in new hw |
| 19:55.19 | ljp | you cannot win the war unless you understand your enemy |
| 19:55.20 | holycow | ljp: ah okay :) yes i agree |
| 19:55.23 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 19:55.25 | holycow | right right *nod* |
| 19:55.58 | cb22 | wurp2: so they say: 'i have _a_ key, go get some others' |
| 19:55.59 | wurp2 | ljp: I couldn't find a Qtopia image that would work :-( |
| 19:56.02 | ljp | I consider GPL to be copyright++ |
| 19:56.27 | ljp | wurp2: what device gta01 or 02? |
| 19:56.30 | wurp2 | cb22: You're certainly right that it could be done; we just disagree about what people will/would do, I think |
| 19:56.34 | wurp2 | ljp: gta01 |
| 19:56.44 | wurp2 | gta02, I wish |
| 19:57.05 | ljp | wurp2: I will make one available somewhere |
| 19:57.13 | cb22 | wurp2: consider devices like the psp, relatively few people care about it, yet despite sony's best efforts, it has been craccked to pieces |
| 19:57.18 | cb22 | same thing with the iphone |
| 19:57.33 | wurp2 | ljp: Yay! Thanks! |
| 19:57.52 | ljp | wont be 4.4.0 though |
| 19:58.10 | wurp2 | cb22: Good point... I dunno how that happened |
| 19:58.14 | wurp2 | ljp: Sure |
| 19:58.30 | wurp2 | ljp: Of course you can't give me the slick new & improved one |
| 19:58.32 | wurp2 | ;-) |
| 19:58.34 | holycow | the iphone thing is solved with v2 |
| 19:58.37 | holycow | they don't care if its cracked |
| 19:58.50 | holycow | they just force everyone top pay $600 for the device |
| 19:58.52 | holycow | via contract |
| 19:59.06 | holycow | you either pay the contract or you break it and pay the the difference |
| 19:59.37 | holycow | that should dry up supplies nicely unless someone steals a trcuk |
| 19:59.37 | holycow | :) |
| 19:59.56 | cb22 | w00t for stolen trucks :) |
| 19:59.59 | *** join/#openmoko [Kame2] (n=manuel@p3EE2B36A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 20:00.24 | ljp | starts a 4.3 build |
| 20:00.45 | ljp | bah! iphone this! |
| 20:01.00 | wurp2 | cb22: Do they not use pub/priv key encryption in the firmware for those, at least? |
| 20:01.04 | wurp2 | Hrm, actually... |
| 20:01.36 | wurp2 | Even if they did the low level drm scheme I was talking about, unless they eliminate self modifying code, any exploit in any signed app turns into a way to execute any unsigned code |
| 20:01.52 | wurp2 | So I recant my defense of the practicality of low level hw drm :-) |
| 20:02.09 | cb22 | you like the word recant, dont you :) |
| 20:02.39 | wurp2 | Using it twice in one day is too much? |
| 20:02.42 | wurp2 | :-) |
| 20:02.52 | kdean06 | Tim Russert died. |
| 20:03.00 | dcordes | who was he? |
| 20:03.05 | kdean06 | A news reporter. |
| 20:04.34 | dcordes | the netherland soccer team rules |
| 20:04.52 | cb22 | yeah |
| 20:05.18 | ljp | 's eldest daughter lives the the netherlands |
| 20:05.19 | cb22 | << italian support |
| 20:05.27 | cb22 | er*\ |
| 20:05.33 | holycow | heh |
| 20:05.40 | holycow | i love amsterdam, going there in july |
| 20:05.55 | cb22 | holycow: i believe rasters like there :) |
| 20:06.02 | zedstar_ | im going to amsterdam in july also! |
| 20:06.08 | holycow | heh! neato! |
| 20:06.12 | cb22 | chuckles at his own bad pun :( |
| 20:06.12 | dcordes | holycow: me too |
| 20:06.17 | holycow | wow haha |
| 20:06.21 | holycow | we should grab a beer :) |
| 20:06.24 | *** join/#openmoko k-s (n=gustavo@201.82.9.119) |
| 20:06.43 | holycow | although the last time i was there i was zonked out, their beer is much stronger than canadian beer |
| 20:06.45 | dcordes | holycow: I'll just pass there I think |
| 20:06.53 | zedstar_ | im there 21st to 25th |
| 20:06.55 | dcordes | rootbeer? |
| 20:07.00 | holycow | lol |
| 20:07.07 | dcordes | we should have a freerunner party there |
| 20:07.20 | holycow | sec |
| 20:07.33 | zedstar_ | is always up for beers |
| 20:07.37 | cb22 | dcordes: you need hot chicks with freerunners for that |
| 20:07.56 | cb22 | finding one of those is hard enough, but getting a combo? near impossible |
| 20:08.10 | *** join/#openmoko Dave (n=dave@pool-141-150-74-91.mad.east.verizon.net) |
| 20:08.32 | dcordes | cb22: you could give the freerunners away for free if you had them |
| 20:08.37 | dcordes | := |
| 20:08.59 | cb22 | dcordes: most girls i know would put on their ice hockey gear :/ |
| 20:09.47 | dcordes | rather then using a freerunner? |
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| 20:15.59 | holycow | back |
| 20:16.06 | holycow | i think i'm there just for a day july 9 |
| 20:16.13 | holycow | and i'd buy rootbeer :) |
| 20:16.15 | holycow | lol |
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| 20:19.37 | zedstar_ | rootbeer is non alcoholic isnt it? |
| 20:19.48 | holycow | yeah, its pop |
| 20:19.55 | holycow | sugar water :) |
| 20:20.26 | zedstar_ | what is a popular brand? |
| 20:20.42 | cb22 | prefers koolaid |
| 20:21.06 | wurp2 | zedstar_: Depends on who makes the root beer |
| 20:21.08 | dcordes | Kool-Aid is a brand of artificially-flavored soft drink mix owned by the Kraft Foods Company. |
| 20:21.35 | dcordes | Root beer, also known as sarsaparilla, is a carbonated beverage originally created from sassafras. Root beer, popularized in North America, comes in two forms: alcoholic and soft drink. |
| 20:21.51 | dcordes | zedstar_: sounds like there are also alcoholic rootbeers |
| 20:21.54 | cb22 | dcordes: i mean the other type of koolaid :) |
| 20:22.06 | zedstar_ | sounds confusing :) |
| 20:22.17 | Dave | the kind laced with KCN, perhaps? ;) |
| 20:22.22 | holycow | root beer can be alcoholic? |
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| 20:22.23 | wurp2 | I have a friend who makes alcoholic root beer |
| 20:22.25 | holycow | oh i didn't know that |
| 20:22.26 | holycow | heh |
| 20:22.31 | wurp2 | Well, made |
| 20:22.41 | wurp2 | He did for a long time, but doesn't any more |
| 20:23.01 | dcordes | wurp2: does he sell? |
| 20:23.05 | dcordes | oh I see |
| 20:23.19 | zedstar_ | i wouldnt mind going to the heineken brewery when im in amsterdam...looking for things to do that dont involve gettting in to too much trouble |
| 20:24.07 | Dave | Hard cider, anyone? |
| 20:25.24 | wurp2 | dcordes: I could ask him for the recipe if you're really interested |
| 20:25.26 | SpeedEvil | zedstar: do you have large musical instrument in your house? |
| 20:25.41 | SpeedEvil | zedstar: perhaps you could obtain tulips to put on your organ. |
| 20:25.47 | wurp2 | zedstar_: If he asks if you want to play his flute, don't say yes |
| 20:26.06 | zedstar_ | lol |
| 20:26.23 | dcordes | wurp2: that would be cool making my own /beer |
| 20:27.04 | BBishop | will be in friedrichshafen in 2 weeks :D |
| 20:27.14 | wurp2 | My friend claims his was good enough (nonalcoholic tasting enough) that a teetotaler got totally plastered when he lifted my friends' rootbeer from the community work fridge |
| 20:28.38 | dcordes | teetotaler lol |
| 20:29.07 | dcordes | sounds cool would be great if you could get the recipe |
| 20:29.30 | dcordes | talk is cheap, show me the code :) |
| 20:29.56 | wurp2 | dcordes: PM me your email addy, and I'll ask him |
| 20:30.14 | holycow | heh |
| 20:30.27 | mmontour | dcordes: http://www.freebeer.org |
| 20:31.42 | dcordes | mmontour: lol they make a religion out of it |
| 20:32.16 | zedstar_ | all this talk of beer made me get some now |
| 20:35.07 | kdean06 | Alcoholic root beer explodes, if done improperly. :S |
| 20:35.22 | kdean06 | That's why it shouldn't be done in glass bottles. :P |
| 20:35.24 | holycow | heh |
| 20:35.27 | wurp2 | dcordes: Email sent. We'll see if we get a useful reply |
| 20:35.28 | holycow | i consider that a bonus |
| 20:35.41 | kdean06 | holycow, You're not married are you? |
| 20:35.43 | wurp2 | holycow: Would you consider it a bonus while picking glass out of your eye? |
| 20:36.10 | holycow | kdean06: lol, how did you guess? |
| 20:36.11 | holycow | heh |
| 20:36.22 | kdean06 | "Thud, thud, thud" at 2 am isn't a "bonus" as bottles are exploding in the room next to you. |
| 20:36.24 | holycow | wurp2: well one would hope for controlled demolition |
| 20:36.24 | holycow | :) |
| 20:36.47 | wurp2 | :-) |
| 20:36.52 | kdean06 | Caps go rocketting off and leave splatter marks on the ceiling. :S |
| 20:37.04 | kdean06 | Ever mopped your ceiling? |
| 20:37.27 | holycow | hahaha |
| 20:37.29 | holycow | actually ... |
| 20:37.31 | holycow | i have |
| 20:37.36 | kdean06 | :) |
| 20:37.53 | holycow | ever set oil on fire and then try to put the oil out by putting it under water? |
| 20:37.59 | kdean06 | There are very few people who can look at you in the eye and say that in earnest. |
| 20:38.06 | holycow | have you ever seen 12 foot flames shoot out 2 feet from your eyebrows? |
| 20:38.08 | holycow | i have |
| 20:38.09 | holycow | :) |
| 20:39.08 | kdean06 | holycow, When I was perhaps 10 years old, I had a friend who took off the flow controller on his Bic lighter. He went to light a cigarette and forgot, burnt off his eyebrows, big chunk of his hair. |
| 20:39.25 | holycow | rofl |
| 20:39.26 | holycow | sweet |
| 20:39.35 | holycow | thats pretty close to what happened to me |
| 20:39.43 | holycow | but this was frying pan oil |
| 20:39.58 | kdean06 | Anyway... |
| 20:40.06 | holycow | my entire celing and walls were layered with blackened oil, hence yah |
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| 20:58.13 | ljp | hmmm |
| 20:58.23 | cb22 | hum |
| 20:59.03 | ScaredyCat | sorry wurp2 - got distracted.... |
| 20:59.13 | ScaredyCat | lat lon cuty |
| 21:00.02 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: np |
| 21:04.50 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: on hardware security - doing it right is multi-layered. Get an exploit in a signed program - get a user account with few privs. Have to escalate privilidge to crack the kernel to run unsigned binaries. |
| 21:05.15 | SpeedEvil | And then have a signed kernel that the bootloader won't boot if it's got the wrong signature. |
| 21:05.54 | cb22 | and making sure the bootloader cant be changed |
| 21:06.00 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 21:06.12 | SpeedEvil | That ultimately requires hardware security. |
| 21:06.30 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: But if the owner is the one who wants to run unsigned programs, it's sufficient to have one cracked app |
| 21:06.31 | SpeedEvil | Of at least one block. |
| 21:06.49 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: If *all* he wants to do is run apps, not a whole OS |
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| 21:07.06 | SpeedEvil | Not if you do it right, and the kernel will only execute signed binaries. |
| 21:07.15 | cb22 | wurp2: well, you could always use some sort of loader to load a kernel |
| 21:07.23 | cb22 | thts how linux on the psp does it |
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| 21:07.54 | zash | kexec! |
| 21:08.00 | cb22 | indeed |
| 21:08.48 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - if the users gotten root - or has access to hardware that they can get to without going through kernel drivers that lets them get root, then you've lost. |
| 21:08.53 | SpeedEvil | Barring hardware security. |
| 21:09.12 | cb22 | but if the hardware security can be controlled by software |
| 21:10.13 | SpeedEvil | If I was doing it for a truly mass-market FR, the 'steppingstone' - the 48K of ROM inside the device - would verify the signature of the bootloader. |
| 21:10.19 | SpeedEvil | inside the SoC |
| 21:10.45 | cb22 | by that would be evil, speed |
| 21:10.49 | SpeedEvil | Then it goes from there. |
| 21:11.01 | cb22 | although lots of companes have tried |
| 21:11.07 | cb22 | and failed, take motorola for intance |
| 21:11.15 | SpeedEvil | They generally haven't tried very hard. |
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| 21:11.20 | cb22 | i dont know how, but they keep getting 1-upped by some russian hackers |
| 21:11.32 | *** part/#openmoko malik1972 (n=malik197@e182056185.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 21:11.34 | cb22 | my old phone, the e398, can run native code |
| 21:11.35 | SpeedEvil | If it costs $1-$3 more, then they don't typically do it. |
| 21:12.21 | SpeedEvil | Whereas that could pretty much provide decent hardware security. |
| 21:12.28 | SpeedEvil | (assuming implemented properly) |
| 21:12.52 | cb22 | ... assumptions are the mother of all fsck ups |
| 21:13.13 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 21:13.34 | SpeedEvil | At least the very core code is fairly simple. |
| 21:14.04 | SpeedEvil | A crypto-sum checker algorithm that kicks in immediately after the 'load from sector 0' logic. |
| 21:14.47 | cb22 | I was thinking of something sort of along the lines of a signed freerunner boot process, using the NOR |
| 21:14.47 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: I don't understand. If a signed app has an exploit that you can use to get it to execute arbitrary code, then regardless of hw drm you can run that app, load data w/ the exploit embedded, and bam, you're running whatever code you want |
| 21:15.11 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: Unless you restrict apps from running self-modifying code |
| 21:15.12 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: but next boot, it won't. |
| 21:15.14 | SpeedEvil | wur |
| 21:15.24 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: Right, you have to run the cracked app again |
| 21:15.50 | cb22 | or have the cracked app overright the kernel by using its omnipotence |
| 21:15.54 | cb22 | write* |
| 21:16.05 | SpeedEvil | That assumes the cracked app has privs. |
| 21:16.25 | XorA|gone | well at least we make moko nice and easy and run everything as root |
| 21:16.33 | SpeedEvil | This would have to be underlayed- for defence in depth - by apps only having privs to do what they are required to do. |
| 21:16.33 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: I'm not worried about privs; not worried about escalating to override root |
| 21:16.44 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: My point was originally that drm could work w/ hardware support |
| 21:17.04 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: ah - right. the first part scrolled off. |
| 21:17.59 | SpeedEvil | As I've said before, I'd like the option to make my device a brick if I don't have the password. Even JTAG won't work. |
| 21:18.14 | SpeedEvil | But that requires lots more work. |
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| 21:21.03 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: Anyway, I changed my mind and decided you could copy data regardless of hardware drm, because some signed app will have an exploit, and then you have an in |
| 21:21.31 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: But I totally agree, getting privs to change OS, throw away DRM permanently, etc. is a completely different matter |
| 21:21.34 | holycow | oh heh |
| 21:21.42 | holycow | yeah i just discovered moko runs everything as root |
| 21:21.43 | holycow | *sigh* |
| 21:21.55 | holycow | can anyone explain to me why this is necessary? |
| 21:21.56 | wurp2 | holycow: And the root password is hard coded to "" |
| 21:22.06 | holycow | *blink* |
| 21:22.07 | holycow | say what? |
| 21:22.21 | wurp2 | Unless that's changed, or I was misinformed |
| 21:22.43 | holycow | well i'll reserve judgement, i'm assuming that there is a reason for this |
| 21:22.52 | cb22 | holycow! |
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| 21:25.08 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: and you've gotten the privs of the application. A supervisor app can then kill it. |
| 21:25.59 | SpeedEvil | wurp2: this all depends on someone caring enough to do the security though. |
| 21:26.45 | SpeedEvil | The root password thing and all is just for dev easiness I'd imagine. |
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| 21:37.20 | ScaredyCat | boo yakka |
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| 21:43.59 | HauDyr | i hope that at some point OpenMoko will be mostly in user mode |
| 21:45.51 | HauDyr | how about the sim-card pin code how is that handled? |
| 21:49.57 | wurp2 | SpeedEvil: So you're proposing that you would have some ultra secure app that gets a list of "bad" (exploited) applications, and whacks them as soon as they start and/or prevents them from starting? |
| 21:50.27 | wurp2 | That would work unless you just keep your computer disconnected from the web |
| 21:51.24 | mjr | of course it'll also stop working if it doesn't get its biweekly updates |
| 21:53.53 | HauDyr | yes thats safest, if you dont download a file every day, there has to be an automatic bricking mechanism i suggest termite :-) |
| 21:54.36 | mmontour | HauDyr: The Neo is made of plastic, not wood :) |
| 21:54.59 | wurp2 | mjr: Guaranteeing consistent useful time on the machine seems like it would be virtually impossible |
| 21:55.07 | HauDyr | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite |
| 21:55.23 | HauDyr | i forgot an h |
| 21:55.52 | HauDyr | but C4 is also a good idear |
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| 21:58.38 | cb22 | screw with the battery :) |
| 22:02.42 | mjr | GTA04 needs a carbon nanotube flywheel energy storage with the capability to disrupt it to release the energy in a bang |
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| 22:04.06 | wurp2 | mjr: cookie-cutters |
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| 22:31.48 | CIA-44 | openmoko: 03zecke * recce2b93f1db 10/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs): [printing] Only show Print when we are actually able to print (#1470) |
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| 22:49.13 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: My actual sound problem appears to be that the phone switches into bluetooth mode after I hang up a call |
| 22:49.59 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: At least, after I get a call, I lose sound. Then it seems to stay gone (even if I reboot) until I use alsactl to load stereoout |
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| 23:16.02 | CIA-44 | openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * rd366b77b9de2 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade the ninja theme to rev 5 as of ticks request |
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