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| 00:07.28 | summatusmentis | mickey|sofa: just thought I'd drop you a reminder about my email. No rush, just curious |
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| 01:12.23 | udinesh5 | Are mentors here ? |
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| 01:19.01 | balrog-kun | probably asleep already |
| 01:20.37 | roh | jap. 3:20am here in europe |
| 01:20.46 | roh | american timezones are good ;) |
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| 01:36.40 | udinesh5 | i was pretty confident about my contribution to openmoko bluetooth idea |
| 01:36.46 | udinesh5 | but i am not selected |
| 01:36.51 | udinesh5 | any reconsideration ? |
| 01:37.18 | summatusmentis | udinesh5: I would be VERY surprised if there was any form of reconsideration, you could contribute anyway |
| 01:38.01 | udinesh5 | i am an aspiring student to contribute to bluetooth ideas |
| 01:38.09 | udinesh5 | pls tell me how can i contribute :) ? |
| 01:38.28 | summatusmentis | write code, and submit it, I think, I'm not exactly sure :-P |
| 01:38.56 | udinesh5 | http://code.google.com/soc/2008/app.html?org=openmoko&csaid=udinesh5%40gmail.com%3Aeb47e684%3A-5f8a27c0 thats my student application |
| 01:39.26 | udinesh5 | i have already done some coding.....http://code.google.com/p/openscatternet/ |
| 01:39.39 | udinesh5 | whom to approach now ? |
| 01:40.19 | daMaestro | anyone know if the current OM builds enable me to access my blackberry mail? |
| 01:40.32 | ewon | depends |
| 01:40.39 | ewon | does your blackberry mail have IMAP? |
| 01:40.46 | daMaestro | the damn "track ball" on my pearl b0rked on me |
| 01:40.58 | daMaestro | i'm not sure if it does IMAP |
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| 01:41.12 | ewon | ask yourself if you really need to check your email that much :) |
| 01:41.30 | daMaestro | i've got to use it for alerts ($dayjob) |
| 01:41.31 | summatusmentis | yes |
| 01:41.52 | ewon | I've purposefully avoided getting a smartphone |
| 01:42.00 | *** part/#openmoko udinesh5 (n=dinesh@122.164.91.76) |
| 01:42.36 | daMaestro | i had/have no choice, and plan on using the gta02vX |
| 01:42.58 | daMaestro | figured i'd at least try to get gprs going with the gta01 ... and hopefully still be able to get my alerts |
| 01:43.04 | summatusmentis | I want a GTA02 |
| 01:43.20 | ewon | Iwant a gta02 that's readable in subnlight |
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| 01:48.24 | daMaestro | grr.... so i need to feed my blackberry service a IMEI and a PIN |
| 01:48.44 | daMaestro | the gta01 has a IMEI... but not a "pin"... unless the serial number counts, which i think it doesn't |
| 01:50.43 | daMaestro | any recommendations on what image i should flash with? |
| 01:50.55 | daMaestro | i've currently got the qtopia image on it... |
| 01:51.34 | daMaestro | wonders if the underground image is anything special |
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| 02:45.13 | summatusmentis | abraxa__: did you get your project? |
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| 02:50.38 | CIA-42 | openmoko: 03alphaone * r4386 10/developers/alphaone/ (. u-blox/ u-blox/ubx-config.rb): * Utility to configure UBX GPS receivers |
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| 02:58.34 | ljp | daMaestro: qtopia is the best there is :) |
| 02:58.34 | edistar | raster: Hi raster, how is illume going? |
| 02:59.01 | raster | edistar: you are free to follow svn :) |
| 02:59.10 | summatusmentis | and by "how is illume going?" he means "why can't we see videos of the keyboard yet?" :-P |
| 02:59.17 | daMaestro | ljp, yeah.., i used it for a little while, but the sound (read: ear piece) was horribly broken for incoming calls |
| 02:59.20 | raster | and you will not get any |
| 02:59.22 | edistar | raster: I don't have a neo, so I tried to compile it for desktop use, but it keeps segvaulting |
| 02:59.23 | raster | so give up |
| 02:59.38 | summatusmentis | I know, I just like thinking I will :-P |
| 03:00.03 | edistar | summatusmentis: heh |
| 03:00.48 | edistar | raster: always when I try to load it e17 crashes |
| 03:01.59 | raster | edistar: no idea why |
| 03:02.05 | raster | works for me and works on my gta02 and gta01 |
| 03:02.08 | edistar | raster: ok |
| 03:02.32 | edistar | raster: I did a fresh install of e17 (with easy_e17.sh) especially.. but must be bad luck |
| 03:02.51 | raster | that is possible |
| 03:03.03 | raster | but a backtrace would let me tell u more |
| 03:03.04 | raster | :) |
| 03:03.16 | edistar | raster: will it be stable soon? I mean illume, not e17 ;) |
| 03:03.43 | raster | stable for me |
| 03:03.48 | raster | but no - its in heavy development |
| 03:04.37 | edistar | if you tell me how I can get you my backtrace.. |
| 03:04.38 | raster | note that u are definitely not using illume with the theme i am using it with |
| 03:04.44 | edistar | raster: true |
| 03:04.47 | raster | the default stuff wont work right |
| 03:04.55 | raster | i dont even bother keeping it up to date |
| 03:05.18 | edistar | raster: then I'll just wait till there is an gta02 image and I have one |
| 03:06.10 | edistar | just would have been cool to have had illume on the desktop to test the keyboard..illume worked once.. 1 day after you released it |
| 03:06.24 | raster | edistar: that wont be much longer |
| 03:06.25 | raster | :) |
| 03:06.31 | edistar | raster: superb |
| 03:06.43 | raster | i ever released |
| 03:06.48 | raster | i simply put it in svn for the first time |
| 03:06.49 | raster | :) |
| 03:07.01 | edistar | raster: that's what I meant |
| 03:07.14 | edistar | in fact that is releasing |
| 03:07.16 | raster | :) |
| 03:07.16 | edistar | ;) |
| 03:07.23 | raster | not in my book |
| 03:07.35 | edistar | ok, may be ambiguous |
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| 03:08.43 | raster | :) |
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| 03:09.00 | edistar | raster: well, I wish you luck with illume, I'll be happily beta-testing soon |
| 03:10.56 | raster | :) |
| 03:11.10 | raster | hmm |
| 03:11.26 | raster | i need to make my usb gadget propely detect usb connect/disconnect of any usb device |
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| 03:44.59 | doc|home | can I have a phone now? :o |
| 03:45.43 | doc|home | by the way, those photos posted to the list, aren't they the gta01? I thought the freerunner had 'freerunner' across the front of it? |
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| 03:46.51 | kdean06 | doc|home, One of them looked like a GTA01, the others were of a Freerunner. Freerunner is all black and says "Neo". |
| 03:47.02 | daMaestro | can i has cheeze burger |
| 03:47.26 | doc|home | ah, ok, it's only because I saw 'neo' that I thought it was weird, I mean, people are going to wonder wtf 'neo' comes from? |
| 03:47.38 | doc|home | I'd have considered 'neo' to be an 'internal' thing |
| 03:47.43 | raster | the rabbit hole |
| 03:48.00 | doc|home | *we* know where it comes from, most people won't :) |
| 03:48.20 | kdean06 | I agree. To me there products are "Neo1973" and "Freerunner". |
| 03:48.25 | doc|home | yep |
| 03:48.35 | ljp | neorunner |
| 03:48.40 | kdean06 | But I've not seen absolute wording that that will infact be printed on the consumer device. |
| 03:48.56 | kdean06 | It might change, but I don't think it's been addressed publicly. |
| 03:49.06 | doc|home | so, anyone got any idea when production starts and how long that'll last? :/ |
| 03:49.40 | daMaestro | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TuxPhone is pretty sweet |
| 03:49.59 | daMaestro | doc|home, just watch http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates for updates |
| 03:50.04 | daMaestro | or, subscribe to the lists |
| 03:50.26 | doc|home | daMaestro: I'm subscribed already, just wondering if anyone knew |
| 03:51.21 | summatusmentis | the community list is ridiculous as to the amount of traffic |
| 03:51.34 | doc|home | wuss :) |
| 03:51.44 | rtm | Yes, and nobody seems to trip quoted text. |
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| 03:52.24 | summatusmentis | doc|home: I switched to digests, and I still get 2 or 3 a day |
| 03:52.27 | summatusmentis | sometimes up to 5 |
| 03:52.34 | doc|home | heh |
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| 04:25.16 | playya_ | yehaaa |
| 04:25.21 | playya_ | application accepted |
| 04:26.53 | summatusmentis | right on, congrats! |
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| 04:28.00 | daMaestro | gah, ran out of time to try all the images |
| 04:29.31 | raster | hmm |
| 04:29.36 | raster | how many slots did OM get for gsoc? |
| 04:30.31 | summatusmentis | 10, iirc |
| 04:32.24 | raster | nice |
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| 04:34.04 | playya_ | wow 10? |
| 04:34.18 | playya_ | then we have 9 gestures and me :P |
| 04:35.36 | summatusmentis | lol, no. One was odeviced, one was SMS middleware, one was accelerometers, one was voice recognition, and I don't remember the others |
| 04:35.57 | playya_ | sms middleware? |
| 04:36.17 | playya_ | how many countries? |
| 04:36.25 | summatusmentis | I'm not sure, didn't read the abstract, I think it means dbus interface to the sms parts of the gsm modem |
| 04:36.38 | playya_ | ok |
| 04:36.48 | summatusmentis | http://code.google.com/soc/2008/openmoko/about.html |
| 04:36.52 | playya_ | is glib availble? |
| 04:39.06 | *** join/#openmoko johncylee (n=john@firewall.tw.openmoko.org) |
| 04:39.28 | playya_ | maybe i need the sms middleware in my projekt :D |
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| 04:44.20 | paulproteus | 10, wow! |
| 04:44.26 | paulproteus | Congrats GSoCers! |
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| 05:23.06 | roh | wtf... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNCqrylNY-0 .. and then somebody says our hardware is too slow |
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| 05:34.28 | doc|home | roh: it *does* have just 8KB of RAM :) |
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| 05:45.37 | roh | hehe... |
| 05:45.53 | roh | doc|home eventually we should just hire somebody to port a small tracker app... |
| 05:45.57 | roh | like in mod-tracker |
| 05:46.13 | roh | and make it exchange files via sms, mail, ip and bt |
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| 05:46.31 | doc|home | tracker app? |
| 05:48.14 | roh | doc|home trackers are used to generate audiotracks.. you kow.. s3m and xm files? |
| 05:48.46 | roh | basically simple samples/waveform descriptions with some 'notes' and repeat-clauses. scriÃpts for real old computers to make noise |
| 05:49.39 | roh | there seem to be really small apps nowadays... e.g. LSDj for the gameboy *sigh* |
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| 06:19.57 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: 03pikkive * r240 10/trunk/software/gsmd2/ (47 files in 5 dirs): |
| 06:19.57 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: Used newer otapi specifications from revision 234. |
| 06:19.57 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: Most of the conversion is done, more to follow. |
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| 06:30.37 | doc|home | roh: ah, meh, not too pushed about em to be honest :) |
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| 06:51.29 | mbuf | the openmoko sales team are based out of San Francisco? |
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| 06:55.58 | ewon | mbuf: they're in CA, I know that much |
| 06:56.07 | mbuf | ewon, ok |
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| 07:08.47 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 07:20.49 | mbuf | Hopscotch, morning |
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| 08:11.28 | flexd | Hmm |
| 08:11.45 | flexd | What do you think of running Ruby on Rails on Openmoko/A Freerunner? |
| 08:12.05 | flexd | Thinking applications could just be tiny set browsers towards a localhost, where rails and ruby could do wonders :D |
| 08:12.19 | flexd | so really just tiny webpages as applications |
| 08:12.19 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-128-025.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 08:12.30 | ScaredyCat | I think you need an iphone ;) |
| 08:12.35 | flexd | No :P |
| 08:12.47 | flexd | I've just been playing alot with RoR lately |
| 08:12.53 | ScaredyCat | I don;t think there should be ruby or pyhton on by default. |
| 08:13.04 | flexd | and not python as i did when i first got interest in OM |
| 08:13.10 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@84-72-53-89.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 08:13.22 | ScaredyCat | I think there should be an ipk to install 'full' versions of each. |
| 08:13.57 | *** join/#openmoko pyknite (n=pyknite@pub1.heig-vd.ch) |
| 08:14.03 | ScaredyCat | the problem with adding either by default is that it'll turn into a dependancy. |
| 08:14.38 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@ip-217-18-181-130.static.reverse.dsi.net) |
| 08:14.46 | ScaredyCat | Somone will see that there's python on there, write an app that'll end up in the core, and then python becomes a depenancy you can't remove |
| 08:15.21 | ScaredyCat | same goes for ror |
| 08:16.31 | ScaredyCat | I do think it should be easy for someone to put it on though |
| 08:17.43 | ScaredyCat | opkg install openmoko-python-dev / openmoko-ror-dev / openmoko-anotherscriptinglang-dev |
| 08:21.05 | *** join/#openmoko jeddy3 (n=mattiast@gw.sbg.se) |
| 08:21.51 | flexd | Hmm hmmm hmm |
| 08:21.59 | flexd | i think python should be standard in the core |
| 08:22.04 | flexd | because it's so usable for anything |
| 08:22.12 | flexd | GTK windows, small scripts |
| 08:22.12 | flexd | whatever |
| 08:22.24 | *** join/#openmoko niclone (n=nicolas@blurp.yi.org) |
| 08:22.31 | flexd | It's just a really easy way of mashing up quick simple code, that e.g C++ would require more work to do |
| 08:22.43 | flexd | (not that C++ and GTK is that hard) |
| 08:24.16 | ScaredyCat | well, personally, i disagree, but that's what it's about - it's open so we get to do different things :) |
| 08:27.11 | *** join/#openmoko Crfrodf (n=Crfrod@88.214.193.26) |
| 08:32.27 | flexd | mhm :) |
| 08:32.48 | *** join/#openmoko ruoso (n=ruoso@195.23.92.2) |
| 08:34.08 | *** join/#openmoko pyknite (n=pyknite@pub1.heig-vd.ch) |
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| 08:56.55 | *** join/#openmoko Sjano (i=Sjano@217-132-139.211310.adsl.tele2.no) |
| 09:00.53 | Sjano | Hello, I wondered... is Neo FreeRunner or Neo1973 a phone that can survive beeing dropped on the floor, moist and so on? |
| 09:04.29 | *** join/#openmoko freebzh_jabber (n=freebzh_@80.248.214.43) |
| 09:04.40 | zedstar | it feels pretty sturdy as a phone |
| 09:07.46 | ScaredyCat | moist |
| 09:09.01 | ScaredyCat | Sjano: you could ask the om guys to test that for you - they're doing distructive tests afaik |
| 09:30.41 | balrog-kun | i'd like it to bounce back into my hand if i drop it |
| 09:32.25 | Sjano | haha, like a rubber ball? hehe |
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| 09:35.05 | CoreDump|afk | would rather like to not drop it in the first place ;) |
| 09:38.41 | XorA|gone | its a fact of life, phone will take a suicide dive |
| 09:39.08 | XorA|gone | good news is Ive dropp my Neo from 1m on fairly regular basis, normally when I trip over usb cable and it still works |
| 09:44.19 | Sjano | Hmm... Good to know it won't break after staring hard at it, tough...... how about moist/water recistance? |
| 09:46.46 | XorA|gone | didnt spill coke on it yet |
| 09:47.53 | ScaredyCat | is sure you'd just snort it off if you did |
| 09:48.24 | *** join/#openmoko kW (n=kW@unaffiliated/kw) |
| 09:48.32 | *** join/#openmoko shenki_ (n=joel@202.174.42.5) |
| 09:48.47 | XorA|gone | ScaredyCat: I wish my budget stretched to real coke |
| 09:49.04 | ScaredyCat | still using baking powder ? ;) |
| 09:49.49 | *** join/#openmoko shenki (n=joel@202.174.42.5) |
| 09:50.34 | Sjano | since it gets down to -50 celius (in the north in winter) and up to 37+ (in the south at summer).... its kinda nice to know if it could handle local weather and such... |
| 09:52.08 | Sjano | baking powder, haha.... reminds me of a festival i was on..... in norway we have flour pills with smilies on them... and i saw a guy walking out with them... then putting them in bags and selling them to other people there... |
| 09:52.20 | Sjano | fluor |
| 09:53.16 | *** join/#openmoko shenki (n=joel@202.174.42.5) |
| 09:53.27 | ScaredyCat | flour is correct :) fluor is .. errm |
| 09:53.42 | *** join/#openmoko Gybrush_ (n=Gybrush@f053152229.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 09:53.56 | Sjano | not flour.... im trying to find the english word for it.... ehm |
| 09:55.00 | ScaredyCat | cheese? |
| 09:55.05 | SpeedEvil | Sugar? |
| 09:55.07 | SpeedEvil | Candy? |
| 09:55.15 | ScaredyCat | Apricots? |
| 09:55.15 | SpeedEvil | Vodka? |
| 09:55.23 | ScaredyCat | Llama juice? |
| 09:55.26 | Sjano | Fluorine |
| 09:55.56 | ScaredyCat | eh? |
| 09:56.07 | SpeedEvil | Fluorine is a gas |
| 09:56.08 | Sjano | or something.... it's some stuff that are good for teeths and stuff |
| 09:56.13 | SpeedEvil | A very toxic one. |
| 09:56.15 | ScaredyCat | is that urine when you have a cold? |
| 09:56.34 | ScaredyCat | flouride? |
| 09:56.39 | ScaredyCat | fluride |
| 09:56.46 | ScaredyCat | ~spell flouride |
| 09:57.24 | XorA|gone | flourine in bags would be the ultimate high |
| 09:57.41 | Sjano | hehe.... it was flouride.... |
| 09:57.58 | ScaredyCat | would have preferred cheese ones |
| 09:57.59 | Sjano | flourine bags sounds awsome |
| 09:58.14 | Sjano | cheese flouride? |
| 09:58.47 | ScaredyCat | you provide the cheese, I'll provide the gas :D |
| 10:00.16 | Sjano | Uranus atmosphere contains 2.3% methane |
| 10:01.15 | SpeedEvil | No it doesn't. |
| 10:01.25 | Sjano | sure it does |
| 10:01.28 | SpeedEvil | I'm feeling particularly farty, it's gotta be more than that. |
| 10:01.31 | Sjano | or something like that |
| 10:01.50 | Sjano | you spread it out for others to smell |
| 10:02.40 | *** join/#openmoko florian_ (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69) |
| 10:04.50 | ScaredyCat | I wonder if you could power a car with SpeedEvil |
| 10:05.29 | Sjano | awsome i was right http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(planet) ..... it also has methane ice on the surface... so it's really just a big fart flavored icecream..... awsome... |
| 10:05.29 | *** join/#openmoko ken_ (n=user@84.92.70.37) |
| 10:07.42 | ScaredyCat | pffft wikipedia still thinks pluto is a planet |
| 10:08.31 | Sjano | hehe |
| 10:08.44 | mjr | those bastards! |
| 10:09.01 | ScaredyCat | everyone knows he's a dog |
| 10:10.14 | Sjano | hahaha |
| 10:11.29 | *** join/#openmoko jeddy3 (n=mattiast@gw.sbg.se) |
| 10:11.31 | Sjano | they even got that wrong...... Pluto (Disney), the fictional pet dog of Mickey Mouse like he's fictonal..... i saw him on tv yesterday... and met him as a child somewhere |
| 10:14.40 | Sjano | wow... battle pope sounds like an awsome cartoon |
| 10:16.10 | Sjano | kinda like, rambo as the pope or something. |
| 10:23.58 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 10:27.36 | SpeedEvil | Anyone used tagnogps? |
| 10:27.54 | ScaredyCat | I've never tagged a gps - ever |
| 10:28.27 | SpeedEvil | drops a wooly mammoth on ScaredyCat |
| 10:29.26 | mjr | I have a bit |
| 10:36.35 | SpeedEvil | On the main map screen - what does 'D1' mean at the beginning of the status line? |
| 10:36.45 | SpeedEvil | Or D and another number |
| 10:36.47 | SpeedEvil | in blue |
| 10:37.44 | *** join/#openmoko no_mind (n=vivek@122.163.249.196) |
| 10:40.49 | mjr | I dunno :] |
| 10:42.51 | *** join/#openmoko broedje (n=hellvis@92.116.107.156) |
| 10:44.34 | ScaredyCat | maybe it means ' D[unno]' :P |
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| 10:45.07 | ScaredyCat | SpeedEvil: does it change on zoom? |
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| 10:46.42 | *** part/#openmoko ANGLE (n=sweet_pr@203.81.226.170) |
| 10:48.23 | Mek | hmm... when building an image mkfs.jffs2 crashes unless I disable rtime compression... |
| 10:48.54 | SpeedEvil | Don't think it's zoom ScaredyCat. /me will check when he gets off the sofa. |
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| 10:51.47 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 10:53.32 | CIA-42 | openmoko: 03thomas * r4387 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/ (libopkg/opkg.c libopkg/opkg.h tests/libopkg_test.c): |
| 10:53.32 | CIA-42 | openmoko: opkg: add progress callbacks to libopkg api |
| 10:53.32 | CIA-42 | openmoko: libopkg: fix opkg_install_package() |
| 10:53.47 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=dr@vnsecurity.net) |
| 10:54.10 | Marcel_M | SpeedEvil: i think its the numbers of tiles which are not downloaded yet |
| 10:57.42 | Mek | hmm... apparentyly the rtime compressor in mkfs.jffs2 somehow can't handle compressing a 1-byte block... |
| 10:59.00 | *** join/#openmoko Trevi (n=Trevi@adsl-ull-141-63.49-151.net24.it) |
| 11:01.41 | thos | who has a gta01 to hand? |
| 11:02.48 | ScaredyCat | hides |
| 11:03.20 | thos | ScaredyCat, how long does terminal take to start? |
| 11:03.39 | *** join/#openmoko christooss (n=matic@84-255-246-158.static.t-2.net) |
| 11:03.42 | *** part/#openmoko christooss (n=matic@84-255-246-158.static.t-2.net) |
| 11:04.02 | flexd | uhm question: |
| 11:04.03 | ScaredyCat | thos: is yours taking a looooong time? |
| 11:04.14 | ScaredyCat | if so check the size of your termcap |
| 11:04.24 | thos | ScaredyCat, no |
| 11:04.25 | ScaredyCat | I use a cut down one |
| 11:04.27 | flexd | Does anyone here have/ever had a Nokia N80? |
| 11:04.34 | ScaredyCat | just bewting |
| 11:04.40 | thos | ScaredyCat, I'm looking at startup times |
| 11:04.54 | thos | ScaredyCat, on poky, the terminal app starts in ~1sec |
| 11:05.11 | ScaredyCat | it's nothing like that on the 01 |
| 11:05.15 | ScaredyCat | longer |
| 11:05.37 | thos | ScaredyCat, the file manager takes about the same time to start |
| 11:05.53 | thos | well, ok maybe 2 sec |
| 11:05.54 | ScaredyCat | 2 maybe 2.5 s |
| 11:06.44 | ScaredyCat | are you in an 01 too |
| 11:07.00 | thos | no |
| 11:07.17 | thos | but it just seems everything is slightly more snappy with Poky |
| 11:07.22 | thos | no idea why |
| 11:07.24 | ScaredyCat | on an 02 |
| 11:07.51 | thos | ScaredyCat, yes and I know about faster proc obviously |
| 11:08.09 | thos | but it seems faster than OM on the same device |
| 11:08.32 | thos | oh, also I'm not using xglamo |
| 11:08.37 | thos | so that will suck some performance anyway |
| 11:08.45 | *** join/#openmoko hampfes (n=support@p54919FBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
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| 11:09.02 | *** join/#openmoko Xilent_ (n=supersti@unaffiliated/xilent) |
| 11:09.43 | Fauphi | bla |
| 11:11.38 | *** join/#openmoko elation (i=elation@gateway/tor/x-73cbd2162af1e72d) |
| 11:11.57 | CIA-42 | openmoko: 03thomas * r4388 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/opkg_download.c: libopkg: remove default progress bar |
| 11:14.18 | CIA-42 | openmoko: 03thomas * r4389 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/opkg_download.c: opkg: remove unused variable |
| 11:15.54 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. atheros bought zydas. |
| 11:16.08 | SpeedEvil | atheros on the chips - using zydas driver. |
| 11:18.55 | thos | could someone do: "time opkg list" for me? |
| 11:19.13 | thos | and tell me the "real" value |
| 11:20.26 | SpeedEvil | I have a scaredycat build. |
| 11:20.30 | SpeedEvil | Is this interesting? |
| 11:20.42 | thos | yes |
| 11:20.45 | SpeedEvil | boots. |
| 11:20.51 | thos | "opkg list| wc -l" also |
| 11:21.03 | thos | I want to know how long it takes to iterate the entire package list |
| 11:21.20 | thos | so I know whether it's really interesting to send progress updates or not |
| 11:22.15 | SpeedEvil | over 10s |
| 11:22.20 | SpeedEvil | waits. |
| 11:22.59 | SpeedEvil | 59s |
| 11:23.12 | thos | hrm |
| 11:23.18 | thos | what does opkg list |wc -l give? |
| 11:23.35 | SpeedEvil | Second run takes 19s |
| 11:23.42 | SpeedEvil | it's not impossible it was still booting first time |
| 11:24.16 | thos | infact, try: time opkg list | wc -l |
| 11:24.26 | SpeedEvil | 12763 |
| 11:24.30 | SpeedEvil | and 11s |
| 11:24.43 | thos | hmm, that's quite a long time |
| 11:24.52 | SpeedEvil | reboots the phone. |
| 11:24.58 | thos | SpeedEvil, did you do the last one so it doesn't print everything out? |
| 11:25.02 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 11:25.05 | SpeedEvil | that was 11s |
| 11:25.05 | thos | ok |
| 11:25.24 | thos | progress updates it is then |
| 11:25.27 | SpeedEvil | I'll do the last one first - after it's calmed down after booting |
| 11:26.16 | ScaredyCat | real 0m 9.54s |
| 11:26.16 | ScaredyCat | user 0m 7.17s |
| 11:26.16 | ScaredyCat | sys 0m 1.24s |
| 11:26.16 | ScaredyCat | root@om-gta01:~# opkg list | wc -l |
| 11:26.18 | ScaredyCat | 6537 |
| 11:26.58 | ScaredyCat | have you opkg updated SpeedEvil |
| 11:26.59 | ScaredyCat | ? |
| 11:27.13 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 11:27.41 | SpeedEvil | It takes longer than I expected to come down to 95% idle |
| 11:27.57 | ScaredyCat | 6580 |
| 11:28.36 | SpeedEvil | I was trying to install tangogps - and did opkg update in between - which was probably a mistake |
| 11:28.43 | SpeedEvil | real 0m 14.97s |
| 11:28.55 | thos | SpeedEvil, thanks |
| 11:29.05 | thos | seems to take > 0.1s so it needs progress hook |
| 11:29.08 | SpeedEvil | Ok - it looks like I was running it the first time when the CPU was still pinned from the boot activity |
| 11:29.12 | *** join/#openmoko bentob0x (n=laurent@ip-213-49-77-207.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 11:29.16 | SpeedEvil | and 11s second time |
| 11:29.32 | *** join/#openmoko emonkey (n=emonkey@edu-32.14.zhaw.ch) |
| 11:34.48 | *** join/#openmoko caratorn (n=aratorn@tui75-3-88-168-237-15.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 11:35.37 | XorA|gone | yay, epithany webkit is still first picture in scap :-) |
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| 11:38.31 | *** join/#openmoko Fauphi2 (n=kill@p54919FBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 11:41.17 | caratorn | hello, I am trying to connect to projects.openmoko.org with ssh, |
| 11:41.49 | caratorn | but after connecting, it prints a message, ending in Last login: Tue Apr 22... |
| 11:42.06 | caratorn | and I can't execute any commands, any ideas? |
| 11:44.06 | Marcel_M | thos: root@om-gta01:~# time opkg list | wc -l --> real0m 0.37s |
| 11:44.06 | Marcel_M | root@om-gta01:~# time opkg list -> real0m 0.42s |
| 11:46.52 | ScaredyCat | SpeedEvil: do I need to do anyhting special for gllin to work .... |
| 11:47.10 | ScaredyCat | didn't some of the names change and there's not been new gllin ? |
| 11:47.10 | *** part/#openmoko Sjano (i=Sjano@217-132-139.211310.adsl.tele2.no) |
| 11:49.24 | *** join/#openmoko tobmaster (n=tobmaste@gw.sinnerschrader.com) |
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| 11:50.31 | SpeedEvil | I dunno |
| 11:50.37 | SpeedEvil | I have a pacakge which works for me |
| 11:51.10 | *** join/#openmoko Grummel (n=grummel@p5B16EAD7.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:51.14 | SpeedEvil | gllin_1.0+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk |
| 11:51.17 | *** join/#openmoko _madwoota (i=mad@woota.net) |
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| 11:52.23 | ScaredyCat | yeah, I have than |
| 11:52.26 | ScaredyCat | that |
| 11:52.30 | SpeedEvil | heep://www.mauve.plus.com/ gllin_1.0+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk |
| 11:52.41 | SpeedEvil | http://www.mauve.plus.com/gllin_1.0+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk |
| 11:52.54 | SpeedEvil | http://www.mauve.plus.com/tangogps_0.8.0-r1_armv4t.ipk |
| 11:53.58 | SpeedEvil | GTA01 of course - 02 just is serial |
| 11:55.24 | thos | Marcel_M, what was the result of wc -l? |
| 11:55.32 | thos | not time, the actual value |
| 11:56.11 | Marcel_M | thos: 398 |
| 11:59.05 | caratorn | does anyone have a clue why I can't connect to projects.openmoko.org using ssh? |
| 12:01.07 | *** join/#openmoko edistar_ (n=edistar@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 12:10.26 | ScaredyCat | SpeedEvil: do you keep your gllin ipk on the sd card ? |
| 12:10.49 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 12:10.58 | ScaredyCat | top level? |
| 12:11.01 | SpeedEvil | but I installed it - in this case - on the main card |
| 12:11.02 | *** join/#openmoko _madwoota (i=mad@woota.net) |
| 12:11.07 | SpeedEvil | on the NAND |
| 12:11.35 | ScaredyCat | I'm just automating the install after flashing.. |
| 12:12.03 | SpeedEvil | I'd like /usr/local/bin to automatically point to /media/card/bin |
| 12:12.14 | ScaredyCat | so you flash a new image and it'll automatially install gllin if it's not there already, and the ipk is on the sd |
| 12:12.26 | SpeedEvil | ipkg-link and stuff would be nice |
| 12:12.36 | SpeedEvil | so you could also install ipkgs in /var |
| 12:12.45 | SpeedEvil | which is /media/card/var |
| 12:12.50 | SpeedEvil | and they stay there after flashing |
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| 12:26.18 | lyakh | (user question) anyone knows if the freerunner is going to be usable in Europe? Both regarding telephone standards and GPS / navigation? |
| 12:27.59 | *** part/#openmoko caratorn (n=aratorn@tui75-3-88-168-237-15.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 12:27.59 | mjr | yes, yes |
| 12:28.05 | mjr | be sure to get the 900MHz version |
| 12:30.52 | lyakh | cool... no clues yet on availability (yes, I know, "No official launch date will be given until the phone is ready":-) |
| 12:31.06 | lyakh | and how usable is it going to be out of the box? |
| 12:32.13 | mjr | not end-user ready at launch |
| 12:32.46 | mjr | I would say, given my experience with gta01, probably devoted geek user -ready at launch |
| 12:32.50 | mjr | but ymmv |
| 12:34.51 | lyakh | hm, they wanted to make the freerunner a "consumer" version, didn't they? I have nothing against having to install a couple of updates, even if JTAG is involved, as long as I don't have to write them myself:-) |
| 12:35.57 | mjr | The plan is indeed to sell them to regular consumers _when the software is ready for that_ |
| 12:36.04 | mjr | at the launch of the hardware, it isn't |
| 12:36.05 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=marex@vasut.kolej.mff.cuni.cz) |
| 12:36.42 | mjr | (updating doesn't require jtag, by the way) |
| 12:37.15 | mjr | packages can be upgraded with i/opkg or you can reflash the whole kaboodlethrough usb |
| 12:37.21 | lyakh | mjr: yeah, as long as the updater is running:-) |
| 12:39.47 | SpeedEvil | sighs. |
| 12:40.03 | SpeedEvil | 1.8mm shorter, and I could have found a way to put wifi in GTA01. |
| 12:41.32 | mjr | SpeedEvil, wait till night, you get shorter during the day |
| 12:42.18 | SpeedEvil | stripped USB key where the GPS antenna goes, smaller ceramic GPS antenna. |
| 12:43.27 | *** join/#openmoko maroi (n=mario@213.33.89.38) |
| 12:43.27 | SpeedEvil | wishes he could get spare cases. |
| 12:43.36 | ScaredyCat | isn't getting a gps signal at all... |
| 12:43.52 | ScaredyCat | gllin turns on the gps - rign? |
| 12:43.53 | SpeedEvil | you're outside? |
| 12:43.57 | ScaredyCat | right? |
| 12:44.13 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: 03pikkive * r241 10/trunk/software/gsmd2/ (15 files in 3 dirs): |
| 12:44.13 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: Fixed some bugs introduced by changing to new otapi |
| 12:44.13 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: Added phone state for multiple phone calls. |
| 12:44.15 | ScaredyCat | I'm by an open set of french winodws |
| 12:44.33 | SpeedEvil | install tangogps |
| 12:44.38 | SpeedEvil | go to the config tab |
| 12:44.50 | SpeedEvil | go to the tangogps homepage, and get that startup script |
| 12:45.06 | SpeedEvil | then you can start gllin and gpsd from the config tab of tangogps |
| 12:45.35 | ScaredyCat | which startup scriot |
| 12:45.39 | ScaredyCat | script |
| 12:45.54 | ScaredyCat | other stuff? |
| 12:46.34 | SpeedEvil | And http://www.tangogps.org/gps/articles/7-Installation.html#extended |
| 12:46.38 | SpeedEvil | http://www.tangogps.org/gps/articles/7-Installation.html#extended |
| 12:46.40 | SpeedEvil | rather |
| 12:48.36 | *** join/#openmoko krau (n=cktakaha@200.184.118.132) |
| 12:50.37 | *** join/#openmoko zncbtrn_ (n=zencubot@modemcable064.45-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 12:52.43 | *** join/#openmoko pyknite (n=pyknite@pub1.heig-vd.ch) |
| 12:57.04 | ScaredyCat | ok, that seems to fill out a little more detail.. |
| 12:57.20 | ScaredyCat | is there a log in tango gps so I can se the raw stream |
| 12:57.28 | SpeedEvil | yes - however |
| 12:57.46 | SpeedEvil | in the 'trip' tab - there is GPS lock info |
| 12:58.04 | ScaredyCat | nan |
| 12:58.06 | ScaredyCat | L( |
| 12:58.09 | SpeedEvil | altitude/lat/lon, satellite time, and satellites in view, and used for a position |
| 12:58.16 | SpeedEvil | take it outside for a bit perhaps |
| 12:59.28 | SpeedEvil | strace gpsd will also show what it's reading from teh gps |
| 13:00.45 | SpeedEvil | http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/nmea.htm |
| 13:00.47 | SpeedEvil | look at GPRMC |
| 13:04.17 | ScaredyCat | w00t! |
| 13:04.50 | *** join/#openmoko Openfree (n=df@222.70.84.169) |
| 13:06.31 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 13:06.56 | ScaredyCat | man the osm mapping data for .nl is awesome |
| 13:07.13 | SpeedEvil | It's not really. |
| 13:07.14 | *** part/#openmoko Dunedan (n=dunedan@phoenitydawn.de) |
| 13:07.17 | *** join/#openmoko Dunedan (n=dunedan@phoenitydawn.de) |
| 13:07.17 | SpeedEvil | It was a donated dataset |
| 13:07.19 | ScaredyCat | they even have paths |
| 13:07.26 | SpeedEvil | so it's not proper OSM in many cases |
| 13:07.36 | ScaredyCat | yeah, I know, but the data is very detailed |
| 13:07.42 | SpeedEvil | I mean - user generated content. |
| 13:07.52 | ScaredyCat | I don;t give a ff where it came from |
| 13:07.57 | SpeedEvil | Some few places in the UK are at a similar or better state. |
| 13:08.09 | ScaredyCat | there's even P signs for parking |
| 13:10.52 | *** join/#openmoko rmoravci1 (n=rmoravci@gtsgw.ttc.cz) |
| 13:11.38 | *** join/#openmoko KenSentMe (n=jeroen@kensentme.xs4all.nl) |
| 13:11.46 | ScaredyCat | http://www.openstreetmap.org/export?lat=52.49755&lon=5.45855&zoom=16&layers=B0FT |
| 13:13.04 | SpeedEvil | the streetnames seem screwy, or it it really screwy? |
| 13:13.25 | ScaredyCat | ? |
| 13:13.52 | ScaredyCat | the roads aren't very straight in reality either |
| 13:14.10 | SpeedEvil | http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.50451&lon=5.45869&zoom=17&layers=B0FTT |
| 13:14.13 | SpeedEvil | lots of 'botter' |
| 13:14.21 | ScaredyCat | the data is more accurate than in my tomtom go |
| 13:14.30 | ScaredyCat | botter is correct |
| 13:14.31 | SpeedEvil | In the UK, branching streets are not common |
| 13:15.28 | ScaredyCat | that's how they name steets here.. you'll have an area that's called botter with loads of actual streets |
| 13:15.35 | SpeedEvil | Ah |
| 13:15.42 | ScaredyCat | then they'll have botter 11-50 on street signs |
| 13:15.49 | ScaredyCat | on each streeet |
| 13:15.56 | SpeedEvil | I see. |
| 13:16.57 | SpeedEvil | So that's houses number 11-50? |
| 13:17.12 | ScaredyCat | that's from 11 to 50 |
| 13:17.20 | ScaredyCat | house 11 then 12... etc |
| 13:17.47 | ScaredyCat | so one street in the botted might have that 11-50 so if you were looking for 26 you'd go down there |
| 13:17.52 | ScaredyCat | botter |
| 13:18.07 | ScaredyCat | because 26 is between 11 and 50 :) |
| 13:18.16 | SpeedEvil | Right - so it's correct, but it just needs more numbers |
| 13:18.23 | ScaredyCat | yes |
| 13:18.29 | *** join/#openmoko krau (n=cktakaha@200.184.118.132) |
| 13:19.25 | ScaredyCat | ok, so now I have an image that has tangogps, gpsd, that script. gllin should auto install and the tago script should replace the standard gllin one. we should also have /usr/local/ pointing to /media/card/local/ |
| 13:19.31 | ScaredyCat | time to test ... |
| 13:25.51 | SpeedEvil | probably also wise to add a few meg of maps |
| 13:26.09 | SpeedEvil | 4 or so levels of zoom from the world |
| 13:28.19 | ScaredyCat | yeah, can you pregrab stuff? |
| 13:31.09 | *** join/#openmoko retracile_ (n=eli@76-204-213-211.lightspeed.allntx.sbcglobal.net) |
| 13:31.26 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 13:31.35 | SpeedEvil | it's in the 'maps' tab I think |
| 13:32.21 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: 03emdete * r242 10/trunk/software/pyneod/ (Makefile pyggld.py pygpsd.py pyneod.ini pyneod.py pypppd.py): |
| 13:32.21 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: add location cache db |
| 13:32.21 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: gprs startup corrects resolv.conf update errors of system |
| 13:32.21 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: add SetLocation(cellid) to location interface |
| 13:32.53 | *** join/#openmoko jmichel (n=jmichel@142.92.36.177) |
| 13:33.43 | *** join/#openmoko Gottox (n=Gottox@s01.de) |
| 13:36.40 | *** join/#openmoko andrunko (n=andrunko@200.184.118.132) |
| 13:37.10 | ScaredyCat | maps tab ? |
| 13:37.20 | SpeedEvil | One of the config tabs |
| 13:37.30 | SpeedEvil | I mean one of the tabs - I forget which one |
| 13:37.36 | ScaredyCat | I've got the autodownload thing |
| 13:37.44 | ScaredyCat | but that's not what I mean... |
| 13:38.04 | ScaredyCat | I mean can I get a zoom 10 of europe, then a zoom 5 |
| 13:38.06 | ScaredyCat | for example |
| 13:38.12 | ScaredyCat | rhather than panning |
| 13:38.16 | ScaredyCat | and zooming |
| 13:38.52 | SpeedEvil | Tehre is a 'download 5 levels' |
| 13:39.19 | SpeedEvil | which downlooads 5 levels down from the current zoom level, to encompass the whole visible map area |
| 13:39.31 | ScaredyCat | where? |
| 13:41.06 | SpeedEvil | sorry |
| 13:41.08 | SpeedEvil | click on the map |
| 13:41.13 | SpeedEvil | select map download |
| 13:42.16 | ScaredyCat | you mean on osm, not tangogps? |
| 13:42.27 | SpeedEvil | +4 zoom levels will get you 256 tiles of the current visible area. |
| 13:42.32 | SpeedEvil | no - on tangogps |
| 13:42.36 | SpeedEvil | on the map screen |
| 13:42.39 | SpeedEvil | tap once on the map |
| 13:42.54 | ScaredyCat | yes, I get a little menu friend, point and set position |
| 13:43.22 | SpeedEvil | this point, fried, geo photo, my position, pois, map download |
| 13:43.28 | SpeedEvil | for me at least |
| 13:43.30 | ScaredyCat | :o |
| 13:43.34 | ScaredyCat | :( |
| 13:43.34 | SpeedEvil | friend |
| 13:45.22 | SpeedEvil | odd |
| 13:45.25 | SpeedEvil | what version? |
| 13:45.40 | ScaredyCat | 7 |
| 13:45.44 | ScaredyCat | 0.7 |
| 13:46.28 | SpeedEvil | hmm |
| 13:46.59 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 13:47.07 | SpeedEvil | I think I'm on 0.8 |
| 13:51.44 | ScaredyCat | someone hasn't updated the .bb |
| 13:52.57 | *** join/#openmoko bentob0x (n=laurent@ip-213-49-77-207.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 13:53.20 | ScaredyCat | fixes it |
| 13:58.47 | ScaredyCat | deploying 0.8.0 |
| 13:59.56 | *** join/#openmoko Mathiasdm (n=Mathias@vpnd057.ugent.be) |
| 14:00.06 | ScaredyCat | where's the config tab gone? |
| 14:00.12 | *** join/#openmoko christooss (n=matic@cpe-92-37-23-215.dynamic.amis.net) |
| 14:00.18 | SpeedEvil | you need to scroll |
| 14:00.22 | ScaredyCat | nm |
| 14:00.40 | ScaredyCat | needs a bigget fontmethink |
| 14:01.25 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@dsbg-4db7c70d.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 14:03.23 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 14:05.07 | ScaredyCat | ok... so downloading a buncho map data |
| 14:06.04 | ScaredyCat | d is direction? |
| 14:06.36 | ScaredyCat | is there any ay to know when it's got all the data? |
| 14:06.42 | *** join/#openmoko Fradeve (n=fradeve@87.13.132.151) |
| 14:07.01 | *** join/#openmoko haakeyar (n=haakeyar@c9C364BC1.dhcp.bluecom.no) |
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| 14:08.59 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@209.195.169.219) |
| 14:10.16 | SpeedEvil | du |
| 14:10.20 | SpeedEvil | in the map dir |
| 14:10.57 | *** part/#openmoko Fauphi (n=kill@p54919FBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:11.14 | *** join/#openmoko Fauphi (n=kill@p54919FBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:11.35 | ScaredyCat | he |
| 14:11.39 | ScaredyCat | heheh |
| 14:11.51 | ScaredyCat | yeah, it's slow... |
| 14:11.53 | *** join/#openmoko Fauphi (n=kill@p54919FBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:12.44 | *** join/#openmoko MichaelShiloh (n=chatzill@76.208.209.165) |
| 14:14.48 | ScaredyCat | 6 mb since I said that |
| 14:15.20 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-21.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 14:18.15 | haakeyar | Talking about mapping (as far as I can see from the time I came online, that's what you guys are talking about). Does anybody know what Splinter is? An official app from OM? I can't find it in svn. |
| 14:18.17 | haakeyar | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Splinter_Test_Plan |
| 14:18.27 | haakeyar | Looks like some mapping software. |
| 14:19.03 | *** join/#openmoko aloril (n=aloril@h132106.gprs.dnafinland.fi) |
| 14:19.16 | haakeyar | Hm... Should have looked more closely, looks like it's called diversity-nav, and that gave a couple of google results. ;) |
| 14:20.29 | ScaredyCat | looks like something :D |
| 14:20.43 | ScaredyCat | illume based ? |
| 14:20.51 | ScaredyCat | stares blankly |
| 14:20.59 | haakeyar | http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/diversity/ |
| 14:21.11 | ScaredyCat | I hate the wiki search... |
| 14:21.19 | ScaredyCat | where's the sd card compat list? |
| 14:22.15 | ScaredyCat | haakeyar: seems to be a tango gps clone.... but without any actual code released |
| 14:22.43 | *** join/#openmoko TAsn-ghost (n=TAsn@89.1.172.200.dynamic.barak-online.net) |
| 14:23.08 | *** part/#openmoko freebzh_jabber (n=freebzh_@80.248.214.43) |
| 14:23.45 | haakeyar | ScaredyCat: They do actually have some code, but I don't know if it works yet. https://svn.projects.openmoko.org/svnroot/diversity/ |
| 14:24.10 | *** join/#openmoko Varox_NB (n=doug@p4FD47017.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:24.10 | haakeyar | (I should have done a little bit more researching before asking here. Found everything about it right after asking. :P) |
| 14:24.11 | ScaredyCat | mmm.. says nn released files... |
| 14:24.26 | *** join/#openmoko jeffdameth (n=jeff@host-091-096-148-058.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 14:24.53 | *** join/#openmoko freebzh_jabber (n=freebzh_@80.248.214.43) |
| 14:25.24 | ScaredyCat | looks like you can run your own server too :) |
| 14:28.34 | ScaredyCat | SpeedEvil: perhaps it would have been more snsible of me to install tangogps on my laptop and download the data :/ |
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| 15:03.16 | SpeedEvil | I had no probem downloading 80M or so of tiles |
| 15:03.22 | SpeedEvil | over usb-ethernet |
| 15:03.36 | *** join/#openmoko spydon (n=spydon@90-227-33-55-no42.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 15:04.32 | ScaredyCat | seems to be really slow.. |
| 15:04.34 | ScaredyCat | :( |
| 15:05.08 | ScaredyCat | btw do you know the wiki link for sd card compatability.. ? |
| 15:05.17 | ScaredyCat | what's the max useable size atm ? |
| 15:06.24 | spydon | doesnt it support all sdhc microsd? |
| 15:08.33 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 15:09.08 | mjr | "should" |
| 15:09.16 | mjr | I have an 8-gig sandisk, no prob |
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| 15:17.22 | *** join/#openmoko lsobral (n=sobral@200.184.118.132) |
| 15:17.32 | ScaredyCat | sdhc mjr? |
| 15:21.33 | spydon | it must be sdhc if its over 4gb I think... |
| 15:22.20 | mjr | yes |
| 15:23.17 | mjr | and standard sd goes up to 2 gigs (though I've heard some 4-giggers might be stretching it and work in some normal sd readers; not sure if this is true, sounds like a signedness thing if it is) |
| 15:23.28 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=marex@vasut.kolej.mff.cuni.cz) |
| 15:29.36 | SpeedEvil | It's not |
| 15:29.50 | SpeedEvil | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/sdhc |
| 15:30.03 | SpeedEvil | stabs the secure digital association again. |
| 15:30.30 | SpeedEvil | What sort of idiots specify - when you can get 4G cards - a new standard going only up to 32G. |
| 15:31.00 | anrp | it probably won't be hit for at least a year |
| 15:31.08 | ScaredyCat | mjr: does it have any sort of id or anything? |
| 15:31.08 | anrp | imo |
| 15:31.19 | spydon | is there any bigger microsd then 8gb? |
| 15:31.21 | SpeedEvil | anrp: You can I think get 16G cards now. |
| 15:31.27 | SpeedEvil | (not microSD) |
| 15:31.39 | spydon | yeah ive heard that too |
| 15:31.43 | anrp | oh, not microsd |
| 15:31.48 | anrp | yeah that's true.. |
| 15:31.51 | anrp | :\ |
| 15:31.51 | Mek | hmm... now while running do_package for glibc-2.6.1-r4 I get a "mmap: Permission denied" error... |
| 15:32.02 | anrp | uh oh D: |
| 15:33.28 | *** join/#openmoko broedje (n=hellvis@92.116.16.14) |
| 15:35.27 | nibbler_de | sd in general is problematic... |
| 15:35.36 | nibbler_de | first they introduced miniSD |
| 15:36.29 | nibbler_de | which was quite a nice formfactor - not too small, not too large, looked like it could easily feature 32gb cards within 2008 |
| 15:36.39 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 15:36.41 | nibbler_de | then suddenly it was all about micro-sd |
| 15:37.01 | *** join/#openmoko pyknite (n=pyknite@83.68.218.53) |
| 15:37.04 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@cpc1-acto9-0-0-cust931.brnt.cable.ntl.com) |
| 15:37.10 | *** join/#openmoko kdean06 (n=kdean06@fsf/member/kdean06) |
| 15:37.58 | SpeedEvil | And microSD also has minor technical problems - no enable pin. |
| 15:37.59 | nibbler_de | while i understand that with the microsd formfactor it is cheaper to manufacture cards and readers, the 32gb limitation rather sounds like an alignment to actual physically possible storage sizes |
| 15:38.01 | broedje | that reminds me of an old song |
| 15:38.47 | SpeedEvil | nibbo: it's not - the new SDHC standard only specifies up to 32G. There isn't a specified way in the standard to encode 64G |
| 15:39.21 | broedje | All is full of love |
| 15:40.09 | nibbler_de | SpeedEvil: yeah - i'm aware of that - but my guess is that the 32G is the maximum size that is reasonable to get in microSD size within the timeframe of two years, so they just set the maximum size supported by the standard to the estimated physically limited size of storage in that formfactor |
| 15:40.43 | *** join/#openmoko erwin_ (n=erwin@84-72-189-254.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 15:40.48 | broedje | mathematical guessing i want one |
| 15:41.20 | broedje | has no idea about mathematics |
| 15:42.19 | anrp | that may be entirely true, but sd, minisd, and microsd cards that are high capacity use the same signalling protocol so the full size cards would be limited |
| 15:42.28 | anrp | full physical size |
| 15:42.34 | nibbler_de | anrp: in deed - which sucks |
| 15:42.53 | mjr | SDHC spesifies 32G max., but afaik the addressing used _can_ address 2 terabytes, there's just an artificial cap... |
| 15:43.02 | mjr | maybe they want to sell new readers after 32G... |
| 15:43.07 | anrp | yay? |
| 15:43.49 | nibbler_de | anrp: but then again (unfortunately) almost nobody builds devices for miniSD or regular SD (besides digital cameras which would be better off with CF) |
| 15:43.57 | mjr | ScaredyCat, the card doesn't say anything else other than "SanDisk 8GB microSDHC" |
| 15:44.12 | freebzh_jabber | mjr, anyway, 32MB is enought isn't it ? ;) |
| 15:44.35 | nibbler_de | 32MB isn't ;) neither is 640k nor 2G nor 32G |
| 15:44.54 | mjr | apparently SDSDQR-8192-E12M (or E11M) might be the SanDisk product code |
| 15:45.38 | mjr | suspects that they'll just go "okay, yeah, remember that 32G cap, forget it" when push comes to shove |
| 15:45.39 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@208.84-48-176.nextgentel.com) |
| 15:46.52 | mjr | (and then some old readers might have issues) |
| 15:47.59 | mjr | (and yeah, on regular-sized SD, you can get 16G now, I have one on my XO ;) |
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| 15:49.13 | *** join/#openmoko Mek_ (n=marijn@i217224.upc-i.chello.nl) |
| 15:49.52 | mwester | loudly agrees with nibbler_de that CF is underused on Digital Cameras -- and many other devices. |
| 15:50.44 | mjr | likes SD on digital cameras but then I'm not a pro or need to store high-res images 10 times a second |
| 15:50.49 | *** join/#openmoko emonkey (n=emonkey@static-pro-212-101-27-121.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 15:51.26 | *** join/#openmoko Tob2 (n=tobi@pD9E872AC.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:51.34 | mjr | annyway clearly there is a reason to manufacture CF cameras also still... |
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| 15:52.16 | *** join/#openmoko playya_ (n=playya@pD9E089EB.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:54.06 | SpeedEvil | My cheap 4G card gets 12 megabytes/second. |
| 15:54.07 | *** join/#openmoko abraxa_ (n=abraxa@pD95FF61E.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:54.09 | SpeedEvil | microsd |
| 15:54.37 | SpeedEvil | That's only really the highest end cameras that need to exceed that on average. |
| 15:56.41 | mjr | thus I like SD on digital cameras |
| 15:58.18 | *** join/#openmoko zedstar (n=john@82-44-200-69.cable.ubr08.haye.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 15:58.20 | mjr | adds to card reusability and exchangeability and stuff |
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| 16:09.50 | *** join/#openmoko Tob3 (n=tobi@pD9E8413F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:14.49 | CM | is back working behind a stinkin firewall that doesn't allow ssh :( |
| 16:17.29 | *** join/#openmoko `pwgen` (n=ew@port-92-193-112-200.dynamic.qsc.de) |
| 16:18.35 | *** join/#openmoko Blastur (n=blastur@kr-lun-168-149-233-83.3.cust.bredband2.com) |
| 16:20.05 | *** join/#openmoko saurabh1403 (n=saurabhg@59.178.58.150) |
| 16:22.41 | *** join/#openmoko wolog (n=wolog@AOrleans-152-1-74-7.w90-21.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 16:23.35 | abraxa_ | CM: ...but it allows IRC? |
| 16:26.05 | zash | CM: but what does it allow? |
| 16:26.23 | zash | https? |
| 16:26.26 | roh | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:26.34 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 16:27.21 | zash | could be hard to change the port sshd is on without ssh |
| 16:27.37 | CIA-42 | openmoko: 03thomas * r4390 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/ (Makefile.am libopkg/opkg.c tests/libopkg_test.c): opkg: fix problems in opkg_install_package and implement opkg_remove_package |
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| 16:34.09 | CM | abraxa_: Nope, home now |
| 16:34.24 | CM | abraxa_: Nice with the gsoc btw, congratulations :) |
| 16:34.43 | CM | zash: Yeah, I'll try using some odd ports |
| 16:35.24 | abraxa_ | CM: I see... bummer. And thanks :) |
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| 17:57.32 | ScaredyCat | SpeedEvil: you know we were talking about osm detail? |
| 17:58.36 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 17:59.27 | ScaredyCat | take a look at scap http://scap.linuxtogo.org/ |
| 17:59.33 | ScaredyCat | 2 maps.. |
| 17:59.39 | ScaredyCat | 1 shows the wires |
| 17:59.51 | SpeedEvil | http://b3ta.com/questions/kids/post145929 |
| 17:59.51 | ScaredyCat | the other even has wind turbines |
| 17:59.52 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 18:00.50 | SpeedEvil | what's th4e browser? |
| 18:00.57 | ScaredyCat | ? |
| 18:01.08 | SpeedEvil | oh |
| 18:01.13 | SpeedEvil | the page may be a subtle clue |
| 18:01.27 | ScaredyCat | that's tango gps in fullscreen landscape |
| 18:01.35 | SpeedEvil | no - the web broser |
| 18:02.14 | ScaredyCat | ohyeah, XorA|gone was getting all excited |
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| 19:31.42 | broedje | is there another way of rebooting the gpe x11 than removing the battery? moto |
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| 19:33.46 | abraxa_ | broedje: Wrong channel? We don't deal with GPE here :) |
| 19:34.04 | broedje | oh ic |
| 19:34.38 | abraxa_ | Maybe try #gpe or just google for it, hehe |
| 19:36.31 | spydon | what is GPE? :P |
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| 19:37.01 | spydon | googled it... |
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| 19:47.26 | raboof | good to see more and more concrete activity in the freerunner dept |
| 19:48.08 | raboof | will be a hard decision between getting a freerunner or waiting for what happens with android - i probably won't be able to resist going for the former :) |
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| 19:49.37 | ewon | this will probably get me kicked.. |
| 19:49.51 | ewon | but AT&T are doing free refurbed HTC TyTn IIs |
| 19:49.51 | broedje | i like to get my moto anyhow dialing with any 2.6 kernel, and see then what i can do for THIS channel |
| 19:49.52 | *** part/#openmoko eeguy_ (n=brandon@cpe-76-185-215-152.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 19:49.54 | broedje | if i can help you not getting kicked |
| 19:50.07 | ewon | and I just bought one |
| 19:50.09 | ewon | ;_; |
| 19:50.26 | SpeedEvil | Ah. Free. |
| 19:50.38 | SpeedEvil | I suppose they just give these out with no expectation. |
| 19:50.42 | ewon | yeah, needed a contract plan anyway |
| 19:50.45 | ewon | :) |
| 19:51.30 | broedje | yae HTC is promising... but takes all the character out of the WM os |
| 19:51.45 | raboof | ewon: those run only windows mobile stuff, right? |
| 19:51.48 | ewon | yup |
| 19:51.48 | abraxa_ | broedje: WM has "character"? |
| 19:51.49 | ewon | :( |
| 19:52.00 | ewon | s/character/shitness/ |
| 19:52.04 | broedje | i like this moto here, or your freerunner is also nice |
| 19:52.08 | spydon | ^^ |
| 19:52.44 | summatusmentis | I'm trying to decide if it's worth buying a freerunner when it comes out, or waiting till my cdma contract expires |
| 19:52.45 | broedje | i dont know how, i was young, but at least gates told me in which hand to hold the mouse |
| 19:53.02 | broedje | kik me |
| 19:53.03 | raboof | decided his next phone will have at least all the 'userspace' software open/hackable, so that rules out HTC as well as motorola afaics |
| 19:53.44 | summatusmentis | raboof: it rules out everything but OM doesn't it? |
| 19:54.02 | SpeedEvil | raboof: get http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.11030 ! |
| 19:54.17 | raboof | summatusmentis: it's conceivable that there will be android-offerings that are open |
| 19:54.17 | zedstar | i just got an ex-demo nokia to use as a 3.5G modem for my nokia tablet. cheap and no contract |
| 19:54.46 | summatusmentis | raboof: not really... isn't android closed userspace? |
| 19:54.56 | SpeedEvil | USB modems are only 50 quiddish though. |
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| 19:55.23 | summatusmentis | 3.5G? we don't even get 3G where I live |
| 19:55.25 | raboof | summatusmentis: not neccessarily afaik |
| 19:55.26 | SpeedEvil | Or if you have a 3 contract - 5 quid per month with a 18 month contract and free modem. |
| 19:55.41 | raboof | summatusmentis: there's no guarantee there will be an open userspace though, we'll have to see |
| 19:55.44 | zedstar | 3.5g from a nokia tablet is pretty nice |
| 19:56.04 | summatusmentis | raboof: I was pretty sure all userspace was gonna be closed, and that it'd be sort of like OS X is |
| 19:56.07 | SpeedEvil | ponders abusing 3. |
| 19:56.21 | broedje | does dialing work, and isnt gpe based on OM? generally? |
| 19:56.30 | summatusmentis | OM is based on GPE, generally |
| 19:56.46 | *** join/#openmoko Fauphi (n=kill@p54919FBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:56.52 | summatusmentis | that is, OM is a customized GPE, afaik |
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| 19:58.07 | broedje | im playing with this angstrom x11 +console r14 on the a780... it is amazing... more i ever expected since i quit playing with my vr3 |
| 19:58.29 | broedje | can i dial? with any angstrom image? |
| 19:58.45 | summatusmentis | I think you can find a dialler for GPE |
| 19:58.57 | summatusmentis | I may be mistaken though |
| 19:59.43 | broedje | atm i lost the way to ssh 202 to the box, but tomorrow ill try again, and maybe dns to my provider...using ipkg *slurp* |
| 20:00.05 | broedje | thnx |
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| 20:00.56 | broedje | i tried to change the net from .0.202 to 1.202 and that seems now to be the fault..not sure |
| 20:01.11 | raboof | SpeedEvil: interesting device, but is the software really open? |
| 20:01.36 | XorA|gone | SpeedEvil: it is epiphany webkit and it is bloody fast on 200Mhz gta01 |
| 20:02.13 | SpeedEvil | raboof: I dunno - I wasn't being serious. |
| 20:02.18 | broedje | im very confused when i ssh`ed to it and made an ifdown usb0.....ssh went down... and then i noticed, that on the phone console wasnt even ifconfig installed... so HOW did i do the ifdown???? |
| 20:02.30 | raboof | SpeedEvil: a :) |
| 20:02.50 | broedje | did i crash the whole app, and it completely disappeared or what? |
| 20:02.52 | SpeedEvil | broedje: ifconfig is the version with buysbvox |
| 20:03.06 | SpeedEvil | broedje: the erasy way would be to reflash it |
| 20:03.45 | broedje | ah... but i am so sure i was in my phone with ssh and "ifdown usb0" brought it all down... |
| 20:04.08 | broedje | surely with a not expected crash, as i was "remote" , from my laptop |
| 20:04.16 | broedje | haha erasy |
| 20:04.27 | SpeedEvil | :) actually a typo |
| 20:04.59 | SpeedEvil | ifdown and ifup are on the phone |
| 20:05.11 | SpeedEvil | just rebooting the phone will work |
| 20:05.31 | broedje | ah... i need to type like "busybox ifconfig" r8? |
| 20:05.39 | *** join/#openmoko Fauphi2 (n=kill@p54919AA7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 20:06.15 | SpeedEvil | no. |
| 20:06.22 | SpeedEvil | what are you trying to do? |
| 20:06.40 | broedje | but from the ssh it was just ifdown , im very sure... and bit confused... maybe a kind of ssh shortcut, or its a builtin in this grml zsh |
| 20:07.02 | broedje | i want my usb network in the internet |
| 20:07.28 | broedje | because ipkg looks like it wants to update sources and update |
| 20:07.31 | SpeedEvil | you mean you want to be able to connect ot the internet from your neo through the usb interface? |
| 20:07.53 | broedje | well...yea from my ... neo a780 |
| 20:07.57 | SpeedEvil | oh - right |
| 20:08.03 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Networking |
| 20:08.05 | SpeedEvil | may be of use |
| 20:08.08 | broedje | thnx |
| 20:08.19 | broedje | i need that |
| 20:08.31 | SpeedEvil | though you may need to slightly modify the 'neo' end |
| 20:08.38 | SpeedEvil | that;'ll give you the idea |
| 20:08.56 | broedje | end?.... |
| 20:08.59 | broedje | side |
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| 20:10.12 | broedje | bye |
| 20:13.37 | SpeedEvil | There is something vaguely disturbing about a chainmail thong. |
| 20:13.40 | SpeedEvil | oops. |
| 20:13.48 | SpeedEvil | sorry, mischan. |
| 20:14.04 | zash | ^^ |
| 20:15.01 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: it's only weird the first time |
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| 20:22.02 | broedje | there are more important things than 3g and gps...speed and stability |
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| 20:22.26 | broedje | john, 1,13 |
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| 21:06.08 | dcordes1 | how can I build an openmoko initrd for my device (using OE, not mokomakefile)? |
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| 21:31.54 | raboof | just installed the openmoko software into qemu |
| 21:32.06 | dcordes1 | anybody out there? |
| 21:32.14 | raboof | interesting. would you expect the actual hardware to be faster, slower or comparable to the qemu? |
| 21:32.26 | dcordes1 | raboof, way way faster |
| 21:32.59 | raboof | ok, also on a 2ghz host |
| 21:33.14 | dcordes1 | yes |
| 21:33.25 | raboof | that's good ;) |
| 21:33.27 | summatusmentis | qemu runs decently inside of a virtualized ubuntu |
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| 21:37.58 | dcordes1 | nobody here who can tell me how I make an OM initrd for gta01? |
| 21:43.17 | dcordes1 | raboof, it's not comperable if you ask me.. |
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| 21:45.10 | raboof | plausible - I don't have a device at all, just considering whether to get one |
| 21:45.54 | raboof | the software is *really* rough, but improving that would be a nice challenge :) |
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| 21:46.55 | malsyned | Can any of you embedded free software hackers help me remember a term I've heard for software, especially on embedded devices like cameras, which has the capability to do more but which has been disabled by some trivial bit flips, such that it is easy to crack it and turn the full feature set on? |
| 21:48.11 | raboof | malsyned: firmware? :) |
| 21:48.33 | Kensan | malsyned: ask marketing. |
| 21:48.40 | summatusmentis | malsyned: seem editing? |
| 21:48.42 | *** join/#openmoko ahven (n=kala@194.126.113.157) |
| 21:48.59 | summatusmentis | has edited seems on vzw phones |
| 21:49.19 | malsyned | summatusmentis: seem editing is an example of hacking this type of software. The word I'm trying to remember ends in "-ware", I think. |
| 21:49.52 | summatusmentis | malsyned: stupid-ware :-P |
| 21:49.53 | malsyned | and is a pejorative. |
| 21:49.55 | raboof | crippleware? |
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| 21:50.21 | malsyned | raboof: that might be it. |
| 21:50.37 | Kensan | it's called proprietary soft/hard/firm -ware |
| 21:51.43 | malsyned | Kensan: proprietary firmware doesn't all fit that description, though. The point is that the device can do more, the software in the device contains code to do more, but certain flags stop the code which can do these things from executing. Like disabling "raw" file saving on digital cameras, but leaving the code to save raw files in the firmware. |
| 21:52.00 | malsyned | I might be thinking of "crippleware", or of some word the describes a subset of crippleware. |
| 21:53.45 | Kensan | malsyned: don't take me seriously. I am just trying to instigate a flamewar ;) |
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| 21:54.18 | ScaredyCat | buttmonkeyware |
| 21:55.19 | malsyned | All of this is a means to an end, which is figuring out what to google for to find a good article about why it's a bad idea to make such software. |
| 21:55.35 | malsyned | I seem to recall that the FSF or someone like that has such an article lying around. |
| 21:55.56 | Kensan | http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html |
| 21:56.08 | ScaredyCat | well, it's easy to summarise... |
| 21:56.20 | ScaredyCat | don't do it it pisses people off |
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| 21:56.36 | malsyned | Kensan: I've been through the usual suspects on gnu.org. Thanks though. |
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| 21:57.04 | Kensan | malsyned: so what specifically are you looking for? more to the point: what's the question you want to answer? |
| 21:58.31 | ScaredyCat | I don;t know who wrote that Kensan - but I fell asleep 3 times in the first paragraph |
| 21:58.33 | malsyned | I'm looking for an example of someone writing on the topic "don't build crippleware-driven devices, here are the reasons why, with examples of horror stories". something like that. I wish I could better remember the things I'd seen before. I'm at this point just hoping to get lucky on Google. |
| 21:58.44 | dcordes1 | hmm free beer! |
| 21:58.47 | malsyned | ScaredyCat: RMS, of course. |
| 21:59.21 | ScaredyCat | explains it then malsyned |
| 22:00.15 | ScaredyCat | malsyned: I think you want to look at it from the other angle... |
| 22:00.25 | malsyned | which is? |
| 22:00.33 | Kensan | ScaredyCat: Mr. Stallman himself. |
| 22:00.38 | ScaredyCat | what *benefits* are there openin up |
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| 22:00.56 | malsyned | ScaredyCat: got something for me on that front, then? |
| 22:01.05 | ScaredyCat | well, emm... |
| 22:01.07 | ScaredyCat | no |
| 22:01.08 | ScaredyCat | :P |
| 22:01.24 | thos | has anyone built a stock image recently? |
| 22:01.45 | ScaredyCat | malsyned: http://www.google.com/search?q=benefits+op+open+source+development&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a |
| 22:01.57 | raboof | thos: uh, I think so (if running 'make qemu' counts ;) ) |
| 22:02.13 | ScaredyCat | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&hs=THl&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=benefits+of+open+source+development&spell=1 |
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| 22:02.29 | thos | raboof, hmm, not really |
| 22:02.42 | malsyned | ScaredyCat: I'm well familiar with the benefits of open-source software in general. I'm just not getting much traction with the people I'm talking to on that front. I'm trying a more gradual approach, and stopping them from making some of the bigger modern vendor blunders is my priority. |
| 22:03.30 | malsyned | By which I mean DRM and secret-code-activated software. |
| 22:03.31 | ScaredyCat | well, get them on cost ... |
| 22:04.04 | ScaredyCat | suppot costs for customers with drm issues... |
| 22:04.13 | ScaredyCat | extra staff ... |
| 22:04.23 | malsyned | ScaredyCat: now we're talking. |
| 22:04.25 | ScaredyCat | more costs, pensions, etc |
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| 22:05.05 | ScaredyCat | bigger canteen :) |
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| 22:06.35 | malsyned | ScaredyCat: I'll certainly approach it from that angle. |
| 22:06.58 | ScaredyCat | it's always the money... |
| 22:07.05 | ScaredyCat | that's what it boils down to. |
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| 22:08.52 | malsyned | ScaredyCat: so I'm discovering. |
| 22:10.02 | SpeedEvil | Vendor blunders look different from the other side. |
| 22:10.28 | SpeedEvil | 'My hardware is relatively easily copiable, I need some way to protect my IP' |
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| 22:12.03 | malsyned | SpeedEvil: exactly. It's hard to talk people out of entrenched ideas like that. |
| 22:12.10 | SpeedEvil | It' |
| 22:12.15 | SpeedEvil | s not an entrenched idea. |
| 22:12.19 | SpeedEvil | For example. |
| 22:12.27 | SpeedEvil | I'm considering selling a UAV. |
| 22:12.37 | SpeedEvil | The actual parts of this perhaps cost $500. |
| 22:12.48 | SpeedEvil | I hope to sell for $3-5K |
| 22:13.04 | raboof | or: 'I need softare X, but it doesn't give me a unique business advantage, so I might as well cooperate with the rest of the world (leveraging their existing work) to produce a well-working solution' |
| 22:13.09 | SpeedEvil | The hard part is not the physical hardware. |
| 22:13.21 | SpeedEvil | The hard part is the sensor fusion software and control algorithms. |
| 22:13.49 | SpeedEvil | If someone can rip those out, they can copy my hardware and simply build their own, with massively more investment than I can bring to the market. |
| 22:14.30 | raboof | ->bed, later guys |
| 22:14.32 | malsyned | SpeedEvil: I'm not sure which side of the argument you're taking up, here. |
| 22:14.38 | malsyned | raboof: good night |
| 22:15.31 | SpeedEvil | Just that the 'evil vendors locking down hardware' argument can look quite different from the other side. |
| 22:16.44 | malsyned | SpeedEvil: I agree, it can. |
| 22:17.21 | ScaredyCat | that's only cos you are an evil vendor SpeedEvil ;) |
| 22:17.45 | malsyned | SpeedEvil: but realistically, isn't it likely that you'll have a massive copyright infringement claim against any competitor who took that approach? |
| 22:17.53 | SpeedEvil | malsyned: nope. |
| 22:18.00 | malsyned | SpeedEvil: why not? |
| 22:18.02 | SpeedEvil | malsyned: not unless they actually copy the binary. |
| 22:18.18 | SpeedEvil | malsyned: if they simply copy the algorithms inside that binary, they are fine. |
| 22:18.19 | malsyned | SpeedEvil: oh, I thought that's what you said they were doing. |
| 22:19.44 | Kensan | malsyned: it all works different in China... |
| 22:19.48 | malsyned | So, we understand what goes on in the head of the 'evil vendor'. Would you try to talk them out of their position and into one that favored a more open approach? If so, how would you try to steer that conversation? |
| 22:19.56 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - then there is china. |
| 22:20.06 | SpeedEvil | For example - I have a 'dynamode' router. |
| 22:20.12 | SpeedEvil | Which uses linux/busybox |
| 22:20.25 | SpeedEvil | Does it have a GPL offer in the box, or shipped sources? |
| 22:20.27 | SpeedEvil | Well - no. |
| 22:20.51 | malsyned | SpeedEvil: you're saying that's the kind of thing that happens with products in China? |
| 22:20.55 | Kensan | malsyned: keep up the competitive advantage by innovation. |
| 22:21.10 | Kensan | malsyned: the chinese have mastered the art of copying. |
| 22:21.41 | Kensan | malsyned: it will take them some more years to steer away from that and really innovate themselves. |
| 22:22.31 | Kensan | malsyned: it's like post-WWII Japan. |
| 22:22.57 | SpeedEvil | Kensan: that only works if you're a player of comparable size to the people that want to copy your code - and can innovate fast enough. |
| 22:23.09 | Kensan | malsyned: but that's a different topic... don't want to derail the "thread" of thought here. |
| 22:23.20 | malsyned | Kensan: no problem. I'm always open to other perspectives. |
| 22:23.40 | SpeedEvil | Kensan: if they have the funding to dramatically outcompete you simply by stamping out knock-offs of your current product at half the price, you're kind of screwed. |
| 22:23.41 | Kensan | SpeedEvil: you need to determine which is your core competence and "guard" that against your competition. |
| 22:24.09 | Kensan | SpeedEvil: indeed. |
| 22:24.33 | malsyned | But the question is, are things like code locking and DRM effective at that? Are they counter-productive? Do they just bother customers without actually protecting you from serious competitors? |
| 22:25.12 | Kensan | Speedevil: but opensource is also a way for smaller player to level the playing field. Vendor-lockin etc is always in the benefit of the ones holding the largest market share. |
| 22:26.29 | Kensan | malsyned: companies should embrace opensource to avoid the "not-invented-here"-syndrom. Use opensource for infrastructure stuff |
| 22:26.30 | SpeedEvil | malsyned: it depends. For example - '3' in the UK used to give away 3G phones fairly freely in the UK, on pay-as-you-talk plans. They had to _really_ tighten up their locking after large numbers were simply purchased for resale in third countries. |
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| 22:27.35 | malsyned | There's the issue of using open source within the enterprise for infrastructure stuff, which I not only agree with you on but can hold my own pretty well on, in conversations. |
| 22:28.01 | malsyned | Then there's the issue of, if you're producing proprietary code, how hard is it worth trying to keep it protected. What lengths should you go to, what measures should you avoid? |
| 22:28.08 | SpeedEvil | In the phone and other sectors where the hardware is subsidised, there are powerful reasons to not allow the consumer complete dreedom to unlock it. |
| 22:28.37 | malsyned | Sure. But openmoko is working to change all that, right? ;) |
| 22:28.49 | SpeedEvil | Well - ... |
| 22:29.01 | SpeedEvil | Openmoko is rather orthogonal to that. |
| 22:29.07 | Kensan | malsyned: with infrastructure I also mean all the things you need in *every* software project. |
| 22:29.30 | malsyned | Kensan: sure. Like it makes sense to use Linux as your OS, gcc as your compiler, glibc as your C library, &c |
| 22:29.36 | SpeedEvil | malsyned: In that it's 'just another phone o0perating system' |
| 22:30.18 | Kensan | malsyned: libraries etc etc. long list. it's also important to send your stuff upstream since "it will be taken care of". etc |
| 22:30.26 | malsyned | OK, time for me to take off. Thanks guys. It's been interesting. |
| 22:30.33 | SpeedEvil | malsyned: the actual production and sale of the phones remains more or less the same. I - for example - can get a subsidised nokia 37u8473 - as it's passed the vendors tests as to what they require. I can't get a subsidised neo. |
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| 22:31.02 | Kensan | malsyned: btw don't take me too seriously, I am just joe coding monkey *hehe* |
| 22:31.02 | SpeedEvil | (Even if it was a user-acceptable functional phone at this point) |
| 22:31.20 | Kensan | meaning: I might have it all wrong ;) |
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| 22:42.27 | roh | SpeedEvil that subsidising business varies massively |
| 22:44.17 | roh | SpeedEvil e.g. here in .de the dealer in a shop does not neccessarily need to sell you a special phone or so. he can sell you anything, because that subsidary is basicyally the bigger part of a bonus he gets for selling the contract and which he uses to lower the price (so peple can get 1E phones with 24month contract) |
| 22:44.39 | roh | means, if the dealer is cool and resells neos, you could buy it subsidaried also |
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| 23:25.24 | roh | brrr... all this senseless discussion about plugs and adaptors... am i glad we only have C and F here |
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| 23:36.51 | SpeedEvil | roh: yeah - it varies hugely. Not in the UK - AIUI. And the vendors that do provide 'sim only' contracts do not actually make them cheaper by the cost of the phone. |
| 23:44.47 | roh | well.. airstrip one.. seems to be us influence (keep people as dumb as possible, sell them shit with no alternative) |
| 23:44.59 | roh | (not intended to offend anyone) |
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| 23:53.55 | mwester | wonders if roh perhaps has the schematics for the GTA01 handy... |
| 23:56.41 | roh | mwester: of course |
| 23:58.06 | roh | mwester: need something specific? |