IRC log for #openmoko on 20080409

00:02.03CIA-41freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r159 10/trunk/software/py-odeviced/ (15 files in 4 dirs): py-odeviced: relayout to prepare for distutils setup
00:02.26CIA-41freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r160 10/trunk/software/py-odeviced/ (odeviced/ src/): py-odeviced: s/src/odeviced/
00:08.52CIA-41freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r161 10/trunk/software/py-odeviced/ (odeviced/modules/__init__.py odeviced/odeviced setup.py): py-odeviced: distutils'ify
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00:25.49CIA-41freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r162 10/trunk/software/py-odeviced/odeviced/modules/powercontrol-neo.py: py-odeviced: only send the PowerChanged signal, if we actually have seen a change
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00:54.00cdbot2* * OM Bug 1330 has been created by mickey(AT)openmoko.org
00:54.01cdbot2* * GTA02: LEDs are not individually controllable
00:54.02cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1330
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02:20.33summatusmentismickey|zzZZzz: odeviced? I thought that wasn't there yet?
02:23.27summatusmentishi all
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03:04.03gerrothe openmoko out yet?
03:04.42Tronic_See topic.
03:11.51gerroTronic_: so... its not?
03:12.16SpeedEvilOpenmoko is a linux distribution - that's out.
03:12.26SpeedEvilThe actual purchasable hardware - not yet
03:14.24gerroI heard a test version of hardware was out last summer so was just asking since its now spring, I'll probably be google migrating for it come summer too
03:14.57SpeedEvilThat run has sold out.
03:15.01SpeedEvilNew version - 'soon'.
03:15.21gerroyou mean non beta version?
03:15.26SpeedEvilIn theory.
03:15.37SpeedEvilThere are yet no known bugs in it.
03:15.46gerrowhere some specs I'm bit curious
03:16.08gerromight get started compiling over some favorite apps of mine
03:17.42SpeedEvilMany apps are already in the repository
03:17.59SpeedEvilSee http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Freerunner
03:18.56gerrolol
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03:23.29zashSpeedEvil: fixed that for you
03:24.29SpeedEvil?
03:24.44zashthere was no "Freerunner"-page
03:24.48SpeedEviloh
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03:28.44zash:D
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03:38.06doc|homeso, did I miss something on the community list or why are people answering wifi *or* 3g? Why couldn't the gta03 have both? (it being at least what, 2 years away?)
03:38.29SpeedEvilno
03:38.36doc|homewants both, in fact, would be disappointed if there wasn't both
03:38.37SpeedEvilI dunno
03:38.45SpeedEvilI would certainly want both
03:39.04SpeedEvilFor example - 1G/mo is 10 pounds/month here - 3G/mo is 15
03:39.27doc|homedata rates are just out of the question here :/
03:39.33doc|homewhile every cafe has wifi
03:39.34doc|homefree
03:39.36SpeedEvil(UK)
03:39.41doc|home(canada)
03:39.55doc|homequad band with hsdpa :)
03:39.59doc|homeand wifi of course
03:40.07doc|homeand a kitchen sink (optional)
03:40.20SpeedEvilThe problem is that AIUI you need about 5 3G models to cover the world.
03:40.36SpeedEvilOr maybe a couple less if you use expensive multiband chipsets.
03:40.37doc|homewhy 5?
03:40.51doc|homedifferent frequency ranges?
03:40.57SpeedEvilAnd modulations
03:41.06SpeedEviljapan is on its own forex
03:41.22doc|homeinteresting to know would the expense of the multiband not cut on the expense of switching the manufacturing lines
03:42.40macdonalderif the cips are just drop-in replacements it probably wouldn't be that bad
03:42.42macdonalderguessing though
03:42.47macdonalder*chips
03:42.56doc|homewould be nice to have something that could work in europe / north america personally
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03:44.04macdonalderin canada, who offers the most reasonable data plans?
03:44.06macdonalderrogers?
03:44.31doc|homerogers/fido are the only gsm based provider, same company, same exorbitant data rates
03:44.45doc|homeit's lack of competition thanks to regulation :/
03:44.47macdonalderheh, yeah, that's what I thought
03:45.03macdonalderis currently with rogers, but hasn't looked into data
03:46.20doc|homeI did and ran away very very quickly :)
03:46.25doc|homebrb
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04:04.45summatusmentishi abraxa_
04:04.51summatusmentisor rather, abraxa__
04:07.16mwesterIs he hogging all the underscores again?
04:07.33summatusmentisseemingly
04:07.39summatusmentisleave some for the rest of use...
04:07.41summatusmentisus*
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04:21.50summatusmentisis it pretty standard practice for code to be "GPLv2 or Later" ?
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04:23.49unknown_lameryes
04:24.10summatusmentiswhy not just say GPLv3?
04:24.27SpeedEvil4
04:25.17summatusmentisok, but why even mention 2 anymore?
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04:26.43unknown_lamerPerhaps the code has not been updated since v3 was released / it is a PITA to edit the legalese in every file
04:27.04summatusmentisI suppose that's true
04:28.17SpeedEvil2 has some freedoms 3 does not
04:29.53summatusmentiswell, if you say "or later" it means 3 anyway right?
04:29.57SpeedEvilNo
04:30.04unknown_lamerit means that you can use it under either
04:30.06SpeedEvilIt measn you have the option of choosing 2
04:30.15summatusmentisoh, I guess that makes sense then
04:30.33unknown_lameras it is "at your option"
04:30.41unknown_lameror whatever
04:31.57summatusmentisright, makes sense
04:32.13summatusmentissometimes I think it'd be easier to live in europe
04:32.31summatusmentisthen I'd be on the same timezone as a lot of OSS people
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04:36.31unknown_lamerjust invert your sleeping schedule
04:37.09summatusmentisI need to go to classes too :)
04:39.59unknown_lamerdrop out ;-)
04:40.24unknown_lamerbah I need to sleep myself ... I keep telling myself I need to sleep before two a.m. and I have failed yet again
04:40.47unknown_lamerafter the six plates of /Jerusalem/ I have to read at least (curse you Blake and your six page long passages with no breaking points)
04:53.26summatusmentisif I drop out, then I can't do GSoC
04:53.43SpeedEvilHmm.
04:53.52SpeedEvilponders a new spam subject.
04:54.09SpeedEvil'We provide all the credentials required for GSoC!'
04:54.18unknown_lamerhah
04:54.37summatusmentislol
04:54.44SpeedEvilOddly - 50% of my adult spam seems to have switched to adwords.
04:55.47mbufwhat is the difference between GTA03 and FreeRunner?
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04:57.04SpeedEvilGTA03 has a V8 and FPGA.
04:57.47mbufSpeedEvil, sorry, what is the V8? and what is the FPGA used for?
04:57.55SpeedEvilSorry.
04:57.59SpeedEvilBeing serious.
04:58.21SpeedEvilA V8 is a 8 cylinder engine with the cylinders arranged in a V
04:58.40SpeedEvilAnd the last we heard, GTA03 is basically scribbles on paper at the moment.
04:59.20mbufSpeedEvil, they probably have plans for that
04:59.35SpeedEvilI have doubts.
04:59.45SpeedEvilThey are pretty much at the moment - AIUI - working flat out on GAT01
04:59.48SpeedEvilGTA02
05:00.25mbufSpeedEvil, ok
05:07.13summatusmentiswe need to make the mentors for GSoC spend more time on IRC
05:14.59doc|homehey, what's in those scribbles? :)
05:15.15SpeedEvilThey looked like a duck to me.
05:15.22summatusmentisI want a duck
05:15.31macdonaldera perpetual motion machine, clearly
05:16.56doc|homeabout damn time
05:18.29macdonalderall that time spent working on power management, right out the window ;)
05:18.38macdonalderproblem solved
05:18.42doc|homeswings and roundabouts man
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06:36.24methrilmorning
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06:57.56Hopscotchgood morning
06:58.52mbufHopscotch, good morning
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07:10.39doc|homehttp://www.engadget.com/2008/04/08/iphone-3gs-baseband-chip-revealed/
07:10.53doc|homeinteresting chip, a 7.2Mbps HSDPA chip with all the video acceleration and media playback features iPhone users have come to expect.
07:11.06doc|homeAdvantages over its predecessor include higher resolution camera support (5 megapixels instead of 2), a 2x speed MMC / SD interface and DVB-H module support,
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07:40.41SpeedEvilWill they actually sell it to other than apple though.
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07:44.39methrilnice
07:44.49methrilchip
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07:47.40TRIsoftmorning
07:49.14SpeedEvilhttp://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/channel.html?channel=ff80808112ab681d0112ab6ab94205ef
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07:50.45SpeedEvilhttp://www.infineon.com/cms/en/services/download.html?filename=%2fdgdl%2fPMB8878_S-GOLD3H.pdf%3ffolderId%3ddb3a304312fcb1bc0113000c158f0004%26fileId%3ddb3a3043136c9a8b01136d6407dc003c&location=Products.Wireless_Communication.Cellular_ICs.Baseband___Single_Chip.WCDMA___HSDPA.X-GOLD_sup_TM__sup__608_-_PMB_8878.PRODUCT_TYPE_DOCUMENTS.PMB8878_S-GOLD3H.pdf
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07:55.19ScaredyCatsummatusmentis: imho v3 is not good
07:55.28ScaredyCatv2 would be better
07:56.20ScaredyCatand I'm not sure if you'd have problems mixing  2 and 3...
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08:14.15CIA-41openmoko: 03erin_yueh * r4330 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-gps/src/openmoko-panel-gps.c: openmoko-panel-gps: detect GPS ON or OFF every 5 seconds (Erin Yueh)
08:14.57ScaredyCatmmm,,,,
08:15.16ScaredyCatisn't there a dbus interface to the gps then?
08:15.22ScaredyCat(ro going to be)
08:15.29ScaredyCator
08:16.29CIA-41openmoko: 03erin_yueh * r4331 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-bt/src/openmoko-panel-bt.c: openmoko-panel-bt: detect bluetooth ON or OFF every 5 seconds (Erin Yueh)
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08:16.48ScaredyCatisn't there a dbus interface to bt then?
08:16.51ScaredyCat(ro going to be)
08:16.52ScaredyCator
08:16.56ScaredyCat:D
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08:24.37CMHehe
08:25.41CMtries to build again
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08:45.34jaybeso the FreeRunner doesn't have 3G/HSDPA ?
08:45.42CMNo
08:45.49jaybedamn
08:46.35jaybei've been following this project for months and was looking forward to getting a linux based phone
08:46.56rtmIt will still be a nice phone.
08:47.12jaybesince the project stalled I ended up getting a Nokia N95 8GB and now depend on its features
08:47.32CMI wouldn't say stalled
08:47.50CMBut I agree it has been somewhat delayed
08:47.51jaybeI can't go without HSDPA and GPS would be nice
08:47.53CM:)
08:48.08jaybeoh well
08:48.20CMYou use it to get internet on your laptop or so?
08:48.30jaybeyes
08:48.54CMNo FreeRunner for you then
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08:49.12jaybei've put my vote on blog.automated.it
08:49.28jaybemaybe a future release
08:49.56CMScaredyCat: Wow, 574 votes
08:50.25jaybeyeah, looks like lots of people need it aswell
08:50.40macdonalderI was actually looking at that the other day as well, lots of votes
08:51.08pyknitedid you see the new update: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates
08:51.13pyknitea good news ;)
08:51.19ScaredyCatCM: yeah, good to see .. I was dreading  <20 vote
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08:51.54macdonalderpyknite: ooo... that is new...
08:52.07pykniteyeah.. i just it now
08:53.58rtmDoes anyone understand why, with all the little hardware tweeks they had to do for the Freerunner, they were not able to also fix whatever it is that prevents it from being a quad band phone?
08:55.27CIA-41freesmartphone.org: 03emdete * r163 10/trunk/software/pyneod/ (5 files in 2 dirs): varios bugfixes after rewrite :-)
08:56.52macdonalderrtm: according to the wiki it has to do with the lack of 850MHz support in north america
08:57.18macdonalderhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates#850_MHz_band_not_supported_in_USA.2BCanada_.28e.g._comment_24_on_bug_.23256.29
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08:59.29rtmTHe whole thing seems odd, and I certainly don't know much about it, but since they were able to mod some neo1973s to work at 850, and since the neo1973 was originally advertised to be a quad band phone, it sounded to my uneducated ears like they had screwed something up in the boards layout of the neo1973, and I'm just surprised that since there were several itterations of the Freerunner hardware after the quad band problem was uncove
08:59.29rtmred, they still didn't create a quad band Freerunner.
09:00.30macdonalderunfortunately I'm not familiar with the particulars so I can't offer anything beyond what I've linked :S
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09:01.19rtmmacdonalder: Thanks.   I had run across that page, but it really doesn't cover why the problem could not be fixed.
09:02.35rtmNow they have to produce 2 versions of the Freerunner, with and without 850, and that sounds like more of a hassle than just fixing the problem.   But I know nithing about the details.
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09:09.29ScaredyCatrtm: have a chat with mwester
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09:11.49rtmI was just idly curious.
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09:33.01cdbot2* * OM Bug 1331 has been created by ebbe(AT)skummer.com
09:33.02cdbot2* * Can't reply to "Unknown sender"
09:33.03cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1331
09:34.29CMHe should have written "number not in address book" instead of unknown sender
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09:47.14ScaredyCatunknown sender is silly...
09:47.26ScaredyCatthe sms will have a number in it..
09:47.30ScaredyCatthat's the sender
09:47.32ScaredyCatright?
09:48.16nezza-_-yeah
09:49.32joschcant you send sms without revealing your number as you can do with calls?
09:50.24maroimh, i think that the gsm firmware is responsible for that unknown signal, because emergency organizastions always get the number
09:50.33maroi-signal +sender
09:52.54gatestoneAny experinces: what is the most challenging thing for a Windows/Symbian developer to start using Linux/POSIX libraries and/or GNU/Eclipse etc...
09:53.35nezza-_-josch: yes, you can't hide your number in a sms message
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10:08.52nezza-_-does anybody here know a device which is able to put a VoIP call into a normal telephonesystem? i don't need a gateway like sipgate, i need a device which transforms it.
10:09.10ScaredyCatjosch: no..
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10:09.51ScaredyCatnezza-_-: sipura 3000
10:10.35nezza-_-ScaredyCat: have you used this device?
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10:11.19ScaredyCatwe have one attached to our fax and I've configured lots for other people
10:11.57ScaredyCatyou could also build a little asterisk box with fxo card in it
10:12.09ScaredyCatI'm of course assuming you have an analogue line
10:12.11nezza-_-ScaredyCat: yeah okay thankyou!
10:12.28nezza-_-yes, its analog
10:12.51ScaredyCatk
10:13.17ScaredyCatand your source protocol is sip?
10:13.38ScaredyCatthat's important for the SIPura :)
10:14.43nezza-_-ScaredyCat: i was first looking for devices which are doing such things, and know we will definitely use SIP :)
10:15.22nezza-_-seams like SPA3000 is discontinued, but I've already found some other devices which are smiliar :) thanks a lot!
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10:15.56ScaredyCatahhh ok...
10:16.10ScaredyCatI assume you've looked at asterisk too ?
10:17.07nezza-_-ScaredyCat: yes, but its the first time i'm working with such things, and i think this is what im looking for :)
10:17.21nezza-_-I just need to convert VoIP to analog ;)
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10:18.37ScaredyCatwell, there are lots of things like the sipura, mediatrix to bigger boxes too
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10:23.52nezza-_-ScaredyCat: okay.. yeah we are talking about 7 to 15 calls at the same time.. so i have to look for devices which are able to manage such things
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10:30.53nezza-_-ScaredyCat: do you know if there are differences between countries in the technology which is used on the analog networks?
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10:41.36ScaredyCatnezza-_-: yes there are
10:41.44ScaredyCatdifferences...
10:42.13ScaredyCatbut iirc on the medatrix boxes you select the country in the config..
10:42.27ScaredyCatI'm pretty sure most boxes will be the same
10:43.16ScaredyCatie you set the country you're intalling it in on the config
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10:43.35nezza-_-okay.. so if i want to put VoIP to a normal net i have to use a FXO gateway?
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10:44.45ScaredyCatyes.. if you're using analog lines
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10:45.11ScaredyCatif you use digital ones you'll need a t1/e1/isdn interface
10:45.29ScaredyCatit's a fairly simple process really..
10:45.46nezza-_-ScaredyCat: okay thank you
10:45.53CIA-41openmoko: 03tick * r4332 10/developers/tick/scripts/inverse_color.script: add a script the inverse the color setting of edc files
10:46.10nezza-_-ScaredyCat: but  i think the Mediatrix boxes are only providing FXS if i get it right
10:46.57ScaredyCathttp://www.mediatrix.com/products_devices.php?prodid=13
10:47.27nezza-_-ah okay
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10:57.43pleaseandthankyowhat are police there for really(i am sure more than half is not enforcing governmental laws)? how to get on the side of the police when encountered? should i pay money to the police/tip whenever they shows up or in advance?
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10:59.45Stephmwpleaseandthankyo: huh?
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11:02.27floriangood morning
11:03.06loufoqueopenmoko takes a few minutes to start?
11:03.13loufoqueisn't that problematic for a phone?
11:03.36SpeedEvil<PROTECTED>
11:03.44SpeedEvilA) Work needed
11:04.15SpeedEvilB) It should just suspend normally, never switch off.
11:04.24SpeedEvilresume from disk should be fast.
11:05.46SpeedEvilC) Add a cool animation.
11:05.57maroibtw.. i don't know if you already know the link and i didn't read the document but maybe it's interesting for some of you: http://www.linuxinsight.com/ols2006_why_userspace_sucks_or_101_really_dumb_things_your_app_shouldnt_do.html
11:06.22maroimy nokia n70 also needs about 40 seconds for booting
11:06.59SpeedEvilIn principle - resume from disk should take under 20s or so.
11:07.08SpeedEvilProbably more like 10s.
11:07.33SpeedEvilActually no - disk is quite slow - maybe 25s.
11:08.05SpeedEvilBut resume from RAM should be immediate.
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11:14.39wibbitloufoque: I'm not sure about other phones, but I know my Nokia E70 takes about a minute to start after the battery had been removed.
11:14.49wibbitloufoque: as does my partners Nokia N70
11:15.15wibbitloufoque: it could just be the new nokia's or it could be that newer phones take much longer than the older phones to start.
11:15.39SpeedEvilThat's basically it.
11:15.44maroiwibbit, afaik all symbian phones are slow..
11:15.46SpeedEvilMy GPS takes a couple of mins too.
11:15.46loufoquemaroi: 40 seconds isn't the same as more than 2 minutes
11:15.52wibbitloufoque: I'd time it for you, but it's at the nokia service centre to be repaired
11:15.55SpeedEvilloufoque: waqs this the first boot?
11:15.59SpeedEvilFirst boot is slower.
11:16.19loufoqueyes, I'm talking about real boots
11:16.23loufoquenot restoring from disk or ram
11:16.32wibbitmaroi: i can't really comment, as I don't really go through that many phones to be able to really judge, I just know that the E70 and N70 are slow as molasses when starting from scratch.
11:16.37SpeedEvilYou don't really care about that - long-term - though.
11:16.41wibbitBut then, how often should I be turning it off.
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11:16.48SpeedEvilAs it should 'never' crash - unless the battery falls out.
11:17.03maroiwibbit, i also own a n70 and previouly i had a 6680, both of them are very slow..
11:17.05*** part/#openmoko BenO_ (n=BenO@dhcp203-203.sers.ox.ac.uk)
11:17.10wibbitSpeedEvil: So, it won't crash if I take the battery out? Only when falls out? cooooooool
11:17.32wibbitwonders how they managed that
11:19.12wibbitI wish the evolution address info, would allow for personal mobile and business mobile, so that one can differentiate between mobile phones
11:19.42SpeedEvilBut people only have one mobile  phone!
11:19.45SpeedEvilThey're expensive!
11:19.51SpeedEvil<paradigm shift>
11:20.14wibbitYah, gota love that
11:20.29wibbitMost of the people I know have two
11:20.50wibbitActually that's a total lie, but most of the people I regularly contact have two
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11:25.57wibbitwonders whats the chances of getting a freerunner before my e70 comes back from nokia
11:27.04SpeedEvilcalls nokia.
11:27.07SpeedEvilVery good!
11:27.16SpeedEvilawaits his new e70.
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11:52.57wibbitwonders how to get in contact with the company that sent his phone in, when the company contact is on the phone
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12:02.43ScaredyCatmutters about suspend2
12:03.44CMmutters about cacao-initial
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12:07.55joschSpeedEvil, you bought a nokia e70??
12:08.12pleaseandthankyowhy is it hard to admit that i'm being bullied?
12:13.33ScaredyCatno he phoned nokia to get them to send wibbit's one to him
12:15.12CMcacao-initial fails to build for me: http://pastie.caboo.se/177857
12:15.18CMScaredyCat: You get past it?
12:16.21ScaredyCati sec
12:16.28ScaredyCats/i/1/
12:17.13CMSeems to be an autobuild bug posted about it that fail in the same step
12:18.30ScaredyCatline gets cut off
12:18.52ScaredyCateventually sees the scrollbar
12:19.01CMHehe
12:25.39ScaredyCatgah! srcrevs
12:26.49joschis in search for someone he can sell his e70 to... :-/
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12:37.19CIA-41freesmartphone.org: 03pikkive * r164 10/trunk/software/gsmd2/test/ (6 files): Refactored rest of the tests to use perform function.
12:46.08SpeedEviljosch: I'll give you 74p for it.
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12:50.14joschSpeedEvil, hrm... i think this is not enough since others sell their used e70 on ebay for 100gbp and up
12:50.35SpeedEvil:)]
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13:14.59summatusmentisI need to start sleeping more
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13:24.43ScaredyCatCM: what do you need cacao-initial for
13:24.43ScaredyCat?
13:24.57CMScaredyCat: Just did a "make all"
13:25.03CMAnd tried to see how far it got
13:25.14ScaredyCatlol
13:25.20CMAt least the standard image and the qtopia image has already been built
13:25.24CMBut not the full feed
13:26.38summatusmentisis there anyone running qemu? I'm wondering if there's a way to automatically run the stuff I need to for networking(setting up networking between qemu and host, automatically)
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13:37.30ScaredyCatdoes the qt one work?
13:37.48CMI haven't tried to flash it
13:38.05CMThe regular one works pretty good, but I didn't get any sound from the musicplayer
13:38.18CMAlso, I still haven't gotten usb networking up on my pc.. wtf
13:38.30ScaredyCat:/
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13:43.11abraxa_No sound from the music player? *perks up*
13:43.19wirrwarrheya~
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13:44.34jadams_I tried to use my device as my phone for a day yesterday.  It's a *ton* more usable, but still not.  Also, my contacts list only showed about 20% of the contacts on my SIM card.  I was using ScaredyCat's image.  Anyone else seen this behaviour?
13:45.39*** join/#openmoko tr2x__ (n=alvar@80-218-164-221.dclient.hispeed.ch)
13:45.45ScaredyCatnot your mediaplayer abraxa_
13:46.08ScaredyCatjadams_: the contacts should get imported automgically...
13:46.16jadams_ScaredyCat, 20% did
13:46.22jadams_I have 200 or so
13:46.30abraxa_ScaredyCat: oh ok
13:46.45ScaredyCatabraxa_: qtopia image...
13:46.46SpeedEvilI also have no sound from the music player.
13:46.57CMabraxa_: No, was your player
13:46.59ScaredyCatjadams_: mmm.. might be worth a peek at the code..
13:47.03ScaredyCatwhat?
13:47.04CM:P
13:47.04SpeedEvilWhere is 'Pair with A2DP headphones'? :)
13:47.24CMI just tried playing an mp3, it looked like it was playing, but no sound
13:47.43abraxa_CM: Did you use alsactl to load a sound profile beforehand?
13:47.43CMAnd since I can't ssh in, I can't really run alsamixer :(
13:47.49abraxa_oh.
13:47.52CMNo, should give that a try
13:47.54abraxa_Why can't you?
13:48.05CMI just can't get usb-networking working
13:48.17CMCan't get anything to show up on my host pc any more
13:48.20CMNo idea why
13:48.24mickey|gsoc08unplug and replug us
13:48.25mickey|gsoc08b
13:48.33CMI've tried that, many times
13:48.34mickey|gsoc08it gets stuck rarely, but sometimes
13:48.36mickey|gsoc08bummer
13:48.46mickey|gsoc08does it "click" if you plug usb in?
13:48.47CMAlso tried different usb ports, in case someone was broken
13:48.52CMRebooted...
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13:49.10abraxa_CM: All modules loaded on the host, too?
13:49.22ScaredyCatdmesg?
13:49.24CMYes, and it does register if I look at dmesg
13:49.57abraxa_Does ifconfig -a list the device?
13:50.02CMHere's a plugin, unplug, plugin: http://pastie.caboo.se/177888
13:50.27CMabraxa_: Hmm.. I get one usb0, and one usb1
13:50.29CMOdd..
13:50.55mickey|gsoc08sounds like your usb stack got a bit corrupted
13:50.57mickey|gsoc08which kernel ?
13:51.00mickey|gsoc08[host]
13:51.08CM2.6.24-gentoo
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13:51.14mickey|gsoc08hmm, that should be ok
13:51.31Slaxxeryay
13:51.38CMI think I'll try a reboot to some older kernel just to see if that helps
13:52.47abraxa_Though I do wonder if it works when using usb1 instead of usb0
13:53.30CMabraxa_: They look like this in ifconfig: http://pastie.caboo.se/177889
13:54.28abraxa_Can you check on the Neo which MAC is the correct one?
13:54.45ScaredyCatmmm.. is that right? phonebook entries tied to network ?
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13:54.55abraxa_If I were you I'd just give usb0 some random IP, give usb1 the 192.168.0.200 and try that way
13:55.08CMabraxa_: I'll give that a try :)
13:55.22CMabraxa_: I'm at work now, just ssh:ing home
13:55.26abraxa_ohh okay
13:55.49abraxa_So that's what people mean when they say "make your hobby your job" ;)
13:56.07CMHehe, exactly ;)
13:56.12mickey|gsoc08heh
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13:58.27ScaredyCatjadams_: I think it might be a timeout...
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14:00.00summatusmentisabraxa_: did you see the community email? Google got 7000+ students, OM got ~1%
14:00.09summatusmentisis SoL
14:01.13ScaredyCatSummer of Llamas ?
14:01.26summatusmentisSh** outta Luck
14:01.26abraxa_summatusmentis: Yeah... let's hope. We'll get 2 slots at least
14:01.37*** join/#openmoko ccube (n=ccube@ssh.ccube.de)
14:02.29summatusmentisabraxa_: there are so many better applications then mine, I'm sure
14:02.45summatusmentisI'm just tweaking, ignore me
14:03.00summatusmentisand now class is over
14:03.14abraxa_Don't doubt so much ;p
14:03.21summatusmentis:)
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14:04.13jadams_ScaredyCat, timeout causes the partial sim read?
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14:04.46KronkHello OpenMoko world :)
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14:05.00abraxa_Hello Kronk
14:05.02SpeedEvilOdd.
14:05.08SpeedEvilhas lost his phone.
14:05.11ScaredyCatmmm.. not sure yet jadams_
14:05.12SpeedEvilI can see it on lsusb...
14:05.30SpeedEvilAh
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14:09.08KronkHey guys wondering if anyone might be able to help
14:09.31*** join/#openmoko retracile__ (n=eli@66.205.179.175)
14:09.31abraxa_Kronk: Sure, what's up?
14:09.35Kronkhave an old firmware on my NEO 1973 and just want to update to a new stable one
14:09.50KronkRead up on the wiki but not sure if I should re-flash or update via ipkg ?
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14:10.00Kronkbit confusing some of the details on the wiki ?
14:10.13Kronkrunning a Kubuntu 8.04 laptop
14:10.23Kronkso not sure if dfu-util is working ok for that ?
14:10.38CMKronk: I'd say just flash a new image, usually works best :)
14:10.38Kronkgot it loaded but seems a little strange ?
14:10.47Kronkcoolies
14:10.51CMThere's some reviews in the wiki of different builds
14:10.52abraxa_Personally I'd go for dfu-util as new images use opkg - ipkg is deprecated
14:11.05Kronkwhat about getting rid of the old image ?
14:11.20abraxa_Just flash it over :)
14:11.45Kronkin the wiki it talks about size diffrences causing problems ? Is that out of date ?
14:12.30SpeedEvilif you've updated uboot maybe
14:12.55abraxa_Depends on your u-boot - no harm trying flashing without the "nand erase rootfs", though
14:13.05Kronknope origional uboot that shipped with my v4 :)
14:13.49KronkI could quite get my head around how I know I have the right partition to "nand erase rootfs" no debug board here ;)
14:14.26abraxa_rootfs is an alias for the partition ID, so nothing to worry about there
14:14.37Kronkcoolies
14:14.40Kronkta :)
14:14.45abraxa_You're welcome
14:14.48KronkI'll give it a bash thanx for the help
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14:42.20SpeedEvilsighs.
14:42.39SpeedEvilseems to have screwed up forwarding when I upgraded, and I can't find it.
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14:45.49ScaredyCatcan anyone remember the name of the project that allowed you to build flash gui's - backend is java and tomcat iirc
14:46.32zedstar_thos u going to ucl tonight?
14:47.05summatusmentisScaredyCat: open source project?
14:47.11ScaredyCatyes
14:47.19abraxa_ScaredyCat: Red5?
14:47.33thoszedstar_, yup
14:47.40ScaredyCatdoesn't ring a bell -
14:47.42thoszedstar_, just putting together a demo app
14:47.58thoszedstar_, I can show LEDs, wireless and accellerometers working :-)
14:48.21zedstar_thos ah cool.....not much point me bringing a Neo is there?
14:48.45thoszedstar_, well, do you have anything cool on it? :-)
14:48.48Kronkholds his breath while his Neo updates !
14:49.07abraxa_ScaredyCat: OpenLaszlo?
14:49.19zedstar_thos hmmm no porn no ;)
14:49.54zedstar_thos gprs etc works tho
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14:50.03ScaredyCatabraxa_: that's the one
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14:53.51summatusmentisanyone know how many of the 2 GSoC projects last year were finished?
14:54.14summatusmentisI assume, abraxa_, that you finished yours
14:54.53abraxa_summatusmentis: Those you see of the 2007 run are all finished - the unfinished ones don't show up anymore :)
14:55.04abraxa_We got 3 slots last year of which 2 finished
14:55.08Vegarare there any plans for MMS support in OM?
14:55.26abraxa_Vegar: Eventually, yes
14:55.43summatusmentisabraxa_: oh, ok
14:56.19abraxa_summatusmentis: The one that wasn't finished was "ad-hoc communication via BT/WiFi", fyi
14:56.48summatusmentisthere wasn't BT or wifi on any device last year
14:57.28abraxa_Yeah but the BT and WiFi stacks are nothing special - the ad-hoc communication layer could've been developed on any linux device :)
14:58.55summatusmentisthat's true
14:59.04summatusmentisad-hoc wifi works already in linux, iirc
14:59.55mjrVegar, it's traditionally not been a high priority, though obviously desirable for interop
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15:51.29summatusmentisraster: according to my Data Structures prof, hash tables are faster than trees, if you care(for the keyboard)
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15:53.57abraxa_summatusmentis: For 100% correct matches, I assume - the tree is so you can have some fuzziness in the determination of the word, from what I understand
15:54.25summatusmentisis fuzziness wanted?
15:54.53summatusmentiswould using a tree have 26^26 options?
15:55.10summatusmentiswait, nvm
15:55.11Qwell27^max word len, no?
15:55.20Qwell(up to, obviously)
15:55.34summatusmentisQwell: yeah, that's correct
15:55.50wurp2summatusmentis: If you choose the size of the hashmap correctly, they are much faster for large datasets
15:55.52summatusmentisbut you'd need to parse the dictionary into letters, and store that somehow
15:56.01wurp2If you don't, they can be much slower
15:56.06Qwellof course, it's really just the length of the entire dict
15:56.13summatusmentiswurp2: mm, that makes sense
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15:56.42Qwellwurp2: hash tables + locking makes for a really fun day
15:56.53wurp2hashmap is O(1) to insert & remove, assuming no resizing, good hash function, and # of buckets is large enough
15:57.11summatusmentisbucket == node?
15:57.26wurp2Qwell: As long as you don't have to resize, you can just lock at the bucket level
15:57.53Qwellwurp2: heh, depends on what you're doing with the object
15:57.56wurp2bucket = the list of elements that have the same hashcode modulus
15:58.41summatusmentisoh, alright.(we're not at hash tables yet, we're doing graphs now)
15:58.43wurp2tree is O(log(n)), but as long as there's a well defined ordering on the objects, it doesn't have any other requirements
15:59.27wurp2I think locking on a balanced tree would be even yuckier to do in an efficient way than locking a hashmap...
16:00.07unknown_lamerit is easier if you use a purely functional structure
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16:00.19Qwellunknown_lamer: or a purely theoretical one!
16:00.21unknown_lamerif you want 'destructive' updates you justh av to lock when replacing the head of the tree
16:00.33unknown_lamerand they are not really that slow if you have an ok generational GC
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16:00.42zedstar_yeh surely it depends.... hash is supposed to give O(1) but depends a lot on implementation what that constant is
16:00.43unknown_lamernot to mention much easier to implement
16:00.54zedstarthos see u there
16:00.54wurp2Honestly, unless you have trillions of elements, or thousands and a tight inner loop operating on the dictionary, you probably don't care if it's hash or tree
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16:02.22unknown_lamerFor a dictionary you probably want some type of tree so you can easily find entries that are close in spelling
16:03.01unknown_lamerfor predictive text it is pretty easy, but correction is a bit more difficult to represent
16:03.33wurp2There is a great little article on a somewhat brute-force correction method that performs just fine on modern machiens
16:03.37wurp2s/iens/ines/
16:03.53unknown_lamerBut brute-force is not elegant :-(
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16:04.28wurp2Who cares, if it performs well and is easy to understand?
16:04.32wurp2http://norvig.com/spell-correct.html
16:04.54unknown_lamera mathematically elegant solution should also be easy to understand and perform well
16:05.13wurp2I agree
16:05.41wurp2But a solution in the hand is worth several thousand musings on more elegant ones ;-)
16:07.02unknown_lamerThere is literature on this available on citeseer
16:07.16unknown_lamerso it has been solved reasonably someone just need to hack together an implementation
16:07.35Qwellsimple solution.  feed every word through google, and grep out the "Did you mean ... ?"
16:07.46wurp2Cool, I hadn't heard of citeseer
16:07.52unknown_lamerciteseer is mmmm
16:08.06wurp2No, CiteSeer is currently unavailable.
16:08.08unknown_lamerwho needs to go to a university when you have it
16:08.08wurp2:-(
16:08.26unknown_lamerhttp://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/
16:08.38wurp2KS mirror is not fast either
16:08.46wurp2ah, yep, x is up
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16:09.18Qwellunknown_lamer: neat
16:09.23unknown_lamerI didn't know about ^x until now it looks much nicer
16:10.12summatusmentismickey|gsoc08: ping
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16:12.10wurp2citeseer is very impressive.  This will waste tons of my time...
16:14.31abraxa_wurp2: Depends on your definition of "waste". I'd agree that you can waste time on YouTube. But "wasting" time reading academic papers? Hmm... :)
16:15.31unknown_lamerOh nice citeseerx finally adds support for marking a bunch of metadata records and generating one bibtex file at the end
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16:16.06zedstar_tubecool
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16:18.11zedstar_tubeon my way to have a play with thos's phone
16:18.53wurp2abraxa_: Well, I spend time learning this crap that has only a marginal relationship to anything I do
16:18.57wurp2ever
16:19.25wurp2e.g. the common lisp stuff I'm reading now :-)
16:19.57unknown_lamerhey if I get clisp working properly on eabi that might be useful
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16:20.37abraxa_wurp2: That's why we're nerds and the Good Girls (TM) like us so much
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16:21.12zedstar_tubewurp if u want a shell to play with on the neo u can install chicken
16:21.30wurp2abraxa_: Yeah, I know.  I'm beating them off with a stick.
16:21.41wurp2Hmm, that could be misinterpreted
16:21.45abraxa_lmao
16:22.05wurp2zedstar_tube: clisp shell?
16:22.12unknown_lameronce you learn Common Lisp you'll only be attractive to /oh no emotional problems/
16:22.21unknown_lamerwurp2: chicken is scheme
16:22.47zedstar_tubewurp well scheme but is cool for unix stuff
16:22.53SpeedEvilforth!
16:23.05zedstar_tubea practical scheme
16:23.25unknown_lamerguile should also run and has full gnome platform bindings along with most of POSIX and an implementation of scsh
16:23.36unknown_lamerbut is not nearly as fast as chicken
16:23.44zedstar_tubeyeh
16:23.52unknown_lamerbut is still faster than Python which I find amusing because the Scheme community makes fun of Guile for being abysmally slow
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16:24.10unknown_lamerIt can also do fully preemptive threading unlike most other implementations
16:24.13zedstar_tubeplus ive packaged chicken already
16:24.38zedstar_tubeso install ipk and hack away
16:24.40unknown_lamerI think there is a bitbake package for Guile lying around somewhere ISTR Neal Walfield or someone running it on the N800
16:24.46unknown_lamerI should email him
16:24.54unknown_lamererr, Neil Jerram
16:24.57unknown_lamerGuile not Hurd oops
16:25.11unknown_lamerdamn people with phonetically identical names
16:25.21KronkHey just out of interest has anyone loaded the April 04 "recommended" kernel and jffs2 rootfs images ?
16:25.48abraxa_Kronk: Probably, or else it wouldn't be recommended :)  - do you have problems with it?
16:25.51wurp2Kronk: I'm running them
16:25.56Kronkhmm
16:26.37wurp2zedstar_tube: My next language after clisp would probably be haskell
16:26.42Kronkkeeps bombing out when I load the jffs2 for 04 April ? Screen crashes out and I get dumped from DFU ?
16:27.11wurp2Although I'm not sure the difference between scheme and clisp is enough to make a difference...
16:27.19Kronkd/loaded it from the "recommended" link on the wiki
16:27.23wurp2dfu-util is crashing during the rootfs load?
16:27.24zedstar_tubedoes haskell compile to c ?
16:27.46wurp2zedstar_tube: Hmm, no idea
16:27.51Kronkyeah get's to what appears to be around 60 % then seems to crash ?
16:27.56wurp2I just know it lends itself to smp really well
16:28.16wurp2If you tell me the file sizes, I'll compare it to the ones I installed
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16:28.40zedstar_tubenever tried haskell but is popular in uni also
16:28.47wurp2Hmm, I lied
16:28.52wurp2I'm running the 4/03 image
16:28.53unknown_lamerwurp2: CL (the correct abbreviation; clisp refers to a specific implementation) is more suited for Real World work as the standard is large enough for portability between implementations, and there are unofficially standard libraries for networking, threading, FFI, etc.
16:28.58abraxa_Kronk: I had that issue with dfu-util as well... it magically stopped after a few days (I rebooted the laptop several times during that period)
16:29.06Kronkhmm
16:29.12Kronkok ta :)
16:29.18unknown_lamerwurp2: so most people on x86 machines are using SBCL, but I can use the gtk binding and stuff targetted toward SBCL with clisp on ARM
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16:30.18zedstar_tubehmmm tunnel coming soon so there goes my gprs
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16:30.51KronkWell I just loaded the latest qtopia image fine so I'm a bit sus on that file ? Mighta corrupted on d/load or something ?
16:30.58wurp2unknown_lamer: Your Real World comments are the impression I had gotten from reading around.  That and the ready availability of a good free online manual for CL is why I'm learning it instead of Scheme :-)
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16:31.32wurp2Kronk: You might try the 4/03 image; from what I remember there was no real difference
16:31.41abraxa_Kronk: Not sure. It suddenly worked for me without re-downloading my jffs image but can't harm to try )
16:31.51Kronknps thanks :)
16:32.03wurp2Maybe you have something else on USB that is dirtying the signal?
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16:32.19wurp2Are you using a hub, or direct connection?
16:34.19Kronkcrashes for the night cya :)
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17:06.11CIA-41openmoko: 03erin_yueh * r4333 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-gsm/src/openmoko-panel-gsm.c: openmoko-panel-gsm: display GSM antenna power-up and power-down (Erin Yueh)
17:08.52CIA-41openmoko: 03erin_yueh * r4334 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/libmokogsmd2/libmokogsmd/ (moko-gsmd-connection.c moko-gsmd-connection.h): libmokogsmd: add antenna status signal and remove unused code (Erin Yueh)
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17:14.52wurp2Is there any stated plan for the 'right' way to talk to the gsm, gps, bluetooth, etc?
17:15.15wurp2I mean, I assume it's dbus, but I thought the interfaces that are there now are temporary
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17:28.19abraxa_wurp2: mickey|gsoc08 should be able to tell you more about that - my personal assumption is that there will be various D-Bus interfaces available, the freesmartphone.org one being one of them
17:28.52wurp2But the one from freesmartphone.org isn't available now, I presume
17:29.13wurp2I know it wasn't a few weeks ago when I walked the 01's dbus tree
17:29.30Sup3rkiddotheres gsmd2
17:29.37Sup3rkiddois browsing through gsmd2 code
17:29.40wurp2(or, rather, it wasn't advertised on a path visible from the root of either Session or System bus)
17:29.41abraxa_The stock OM image won't have freesmartphone stuff for a long time to come
17:29.51wurp2abraxa_: :-(
17:29.57Sup3rkiddoabraxa_, y0
17:30.12abraxa_emdete's underground image is a test bed for it
17:30.20wurp2Sup3rkiddo: Is there a reason to prefer gsmd2 over libgsmd?
17:30.26wurp2abraxa_: Cool, I didn't know that
17:30.35wurp2Maybe I should play with the underground image
17:30.43wurp2Doing system-wide stuff seems much more accessible there
17:30.46Sup3rkiddowurp2, i liked libgsmd but it doesn handle asynchrounous stuff
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17:30.50Sup3rkiddoproperly
17:30.59wurp2And I would love to see a totally different UI on the neo
17:31.02abraxa_You should - though things are still in flux and the image mickey made some weeks ago is outdated already
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17:31.24wurp2Sup3rkiddo: Ah, good point.  Thanks!
17:31.48Sup3rkiddowurp2, like when you receive a message, telling other apps that a message has been receive is dodgy
17:32.09Sup3rkiddoso something adhering to fso should remove that..thats the ultimate go,
17:32.12Sup3rkiddoafaik
17:32.26Sup3rkiddos/receive/received
17:32.28wurp2I'm fuzzy on the relationship of freesmartphone to OM.  It seems it's a totally different infrastructure, but one that's being done by an OM employee
17:33.06wurp2And one which seems to be planned as a replacement for parts of OM
17:33.26Sup3rkiddounified thingy is good even if it takes time imo
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17:33.57Sup3rkiddoi learnt a lot about programming with libgsmd, so i always liked it
17:34.54abraxa_wurp2: mickey does lead fsp.org, yes, and it aims to remedy the problems with all the other mobile phone stacks/standards - OM will be the first real-world implementation of it but that'll be a while as middleware is first and GUI comes last
17:35.52Sup3rkiddobtw, speaking of fso, anyone got gsm2 working along with phonesim>
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17:37.52abraxa_Sup3rkiddo: No idea
17:38.19Sup3rkiddoabraxa_, seems like a good little task to keep me busy
17:38.47abraxa_hehe
17:39.16abraxa_Or you could do something *really* useful and help Stefan & Co with networkmanager
17:40.20Sup3rkiddoabraxa_, i dont have a device atm...=/
17:40.46abraxa_Oh..,
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17:41.26Sup3rkiddoabraxa_, one of the research organisations bought it and i used to borrow it for a while..but thats about it..
17:41.32Sup3rkiddoMichaelShiloh, y0
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17:41.58abraxa_Sup3rkiddo: Boo... that's sucky =(
17:42.38Sup3rkiddoabraxa_, btw, is your app still marked "Ranking in progress"?
17:43.20abraxa_Yeah, all of them
17:44.46Sup3rkiddoall? you applied all 20?
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17:44.50Sup3rkiddobleh
17:45.22abraxa_lol no
17:45.33abraxa_Just 4 to hopefully increase the number of slots we get
17:45.47Sup3rkiddome just did 2!
17:45.53Sup3rkiddoand one for OM
17:45.58Sup3rkiddoand the other for
17:45.59Sup3rkiddoe
17:46.05abraxa_Ohh nice!
17:46.17abraxa_Hope you get one :)
17:46.28Sup3rkiddogee..thanks
17:46.50abraxa_Gee?
17:47.02Sup3rkiddomy dad bought me new machine i have to cover up..i will be screwed big time if i don't get any
17:47.22Sup3rkiddothat came out wrong..nm
17:47.47abraxa_Oh :(
17:47.55Sup3rkiddohas limited volacuberry
17:49.13abraxa_*shrugs*... I think you're doing just fine
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17:58.06yoyopleas upload "sources/git_git.openmoko.org.git.kernel.git_4194.tar.gz" file
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18:03.47wurp2yoyo: That didn't make any sense... you would need to specify who you're talking to, where that file is located, where you want it uploaded...
18:05.00*** join/#openmoko lsobral (n=sobral@200.184.118.132)
18:05.05abraxa_wurp2: I assume he's trying to build something and it's failing downloading the file from http://buildhost.openmoko.org/sources/
18:05.35wurp2ah
18:05.40wurp2join the club :-/
18:06.09yoyowurp2: the file shood by in "http://downloads.openmoko.org/sources/git_git.openmoko.org.git.kernel.git_4194.tar.gz"
18:06.39yoyowurp2: it's need to build kernel in present makemoko
18:06.52wurp2yoyo: I see.  I don't have the file or access, nor do I know who is responsible for maintaining that
18:07.11wurp2yoyo: People have download problems in mokomake all the time :-(
18:07.40*** join/#openmoko wibbit (n=douglasf@host-84-9-13-237.dslgb.com)
18:07.59Sup3rkiddohad problems with git a couple of hours back
18:08.14yoyowurp2: shout I report it as a bug?
18:08.19*** part/#openmoko yoeljacobsen (n=yoeljaco@89.1.221.234.dynamic.barak-online.net)
18:09.17*** part/#openmoko rcxdude (n=rcxdude@host86-147-87-6.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
18:10.15*** join/#openmoko rcxdude (n=rcxdude@host86-147-87-6.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
18:10.28wurp2yoyo: I'm not sure.  I've always been told to try the build again later :-(
18:10.47wurp2Maybe reporting it as a bug enough times would make someone fix the root problem
18:11.11yoyowurp2: I'm waiting about 3 days
18:11.13wurp2We really have a big problem with build process
18:11.17wurp2yoyo: Ouch!
18:11.27mickey|gsoc08downloads.openmoko.org is not supposed to have these files
18:11.40mickey|gsoc08the reason why bitbake tries to get them from there is source mirroring
18:11.50wurp2It shouldn't be hard to keep a label pointed at the latest good build and have a totally automated build that works 99% of the time
18:11.53mickey|gsoc08if they're not present, bitbake attempts to get them from upstream
18:12.19mickey|gsoc08fwiw, the openmoko branch should be reasonably stable as opposed to org.openembedded.dev
18:12.41wurp2If someone with access to create labels in the repository would build an automated system to build & label when it works, & send email to whatever mailing list when it doesn't, it would solve the problem once & for all, I think
18:16.56*** join/#openmoko ruoso (n=ruoso@81.84.156.87)
18:17.17*** join/#openmoko pyknite (n=pyknite@83.68.218.53)
18:17.48*** join/#openmoko kdean06 (n=kdean06@fsf/member/kdean06)
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18:22.23Sup3rkiddoi guess yoyo was referring to this? http://pastebin.ca/978630
18:22.34Sup3rkiddobeen getting that for some time now
18:23.10yoyoSup3rkiddo: correct !
18:23.16mickeyltry w/ bitbake 1.8.x HEAD
18:23.33mickeyli'm surprised that it wants to use the git kernel
18:23.48mickeylbut anyways, using bitbake 1.8.x head may help
18:23.54mickeylsince there were git fetcher changes
18:24.01mickeylwhich did not land in a release yet
18:24.05*** join/#openmoko playya (n=playya@pD9E0BFA9.dip.t-dialin.net)
18:24.41mickeylsorry 'bout that but the Om guys are pretty overworked due to freerunner MP
18:24.48mickeyli hope it's going to calm down soon
18:25.20*** join/#openmoko grummel (n=Grummel@p5B16FF70.dip.t-dialin.net)
18:25.39Sup3rkiddo:D, we understand....
18:26.04mickeylthere's a shitload of stuff going on in parallel atm.
18:26.11mickeylit's going to fall into place
18:26.21mickeyli should blog about that
18:26.42alphaonemickeyl: Don't disclose confidential information again ;-)
18:26.52mickeyl*cough*
18:26.55mickeylwhistles innocently
18:27.24abraxa_alphaone: Well, if the management doesn't say what's up...
18:27.50*** join/#openmoko rcxdude (n=rcxdude@host86-147-87-6.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
18:27.50wurp2mickeyl: MP?
18:27.59SpeedEvilMultiprocessor.
18:28.05mickeylmass production
18:28.05Sup3rkiddoooo
18:28.27SpeedEvilTechnically - it does have 3.
18:28.29SpeedEvilOr 4.
18:28.33SpeedEvil5 even.
18:28.36mickeylheh
18:28.37SpeedEvil6 maybe.
18:28.37mickeyllets count
18:28.40mickeyl1. SoC
18:28.44mickeyl2. GSM
18:28.47mickeyl3. GPS
18:28.50mickeyl4. WiFi
18:28.52mickeylwhat else?
18:28.54SpeedEvil2.1 GSM
18:29.04SpeedEvilIt's got a DSP, and an arm seperate
18:29.05yoyowhere is bt ?
18:29.06Sup3rkiddoGPRS?
18:29.09SpeedEvilBT too, yes
18:29.20mickeylright, bt might have a core too
18:29.22SpeedEvilNo - the GSM/GPRS is in one chip
18:29.23abraxa_The accelerometers?
18:29.25SpeedEvilno
18:29.28SpeedEvilthey are dumb
18:29.30abraxa_okay
18:29.31mickeylso we got 6 cores
18:29.32mickeylamazing
18:29.33Sup3rkiddonethack?
18:29.42Sup3rkiddowhat
18:29.44SpeedEvilMichaelShiloh: I'm unsure about the glamo.
18:29.48SpeedEvilmick:
18:29.52mickeylooh, yeah
18:30.00mickeylglamo has some dsp thing as well
18:30.01*** join/#openmoko Tanu (n=tanuva@d121196.adsl.hansenet.de)
18:30.03yoyoopen source is cool :) little editing and wee :) no problem with git :)
18:30.03mickeyl7 then
18:30.11mickeylyoyo: what did you do?
18:30.16wurp2You guys need to provide an instruction set agnostic interface to your cpu cluster
18:30.45wurp2That's a lot of mips that could be going towards, uh, something
18:30.47Sup3rkiddoyoyo, what did you do?
18:30.48SpeedEvilThe sound chip has so many mixers, it must be damn near sentient as an analog computer.
18:31.01*** join/#openmoko ahven (n=kala@194.126.113.157)
18:31.02*** join/#openmoko rmoravcik (n=rmoravci@ip-89-102-255-171.karneval.cz)
18:31.13unknown_lamerI hope they at least replaced the 1uF capacitor with a 3uF
18:31.22unknown_lamerI'd be sad if the sound out of the headphone utterly sucked :-(
18:31.30unknown_lamermy ancient neuros finally died I need a replacement
18:31.34yoyomickeyl: Sup3rkiddo: I'm edit bb file to not search a git file on server. real dirty style ;P
18:31.48mickeylyoyo: :)
18:31.51*** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@umm-yrless170.morris.umn.edu)
18:31.56Sup3rkiddosummatusmentis, y0
18:32.01wurp2unknown_lamer: I am unrefined.  The '01 sound does me just fine for a media player
18:32.27summatusmentishi Sup3rkiddo
18:32.34unknown_lamerwurp2: power metal requires the low end lest the raging drums be lost in a sea of hollow power chords
18:32.38*** join/#openmoko rcxdude (n=rcxdude@host86-147-87-6.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
18:32.54Sup3rkiddonight all
18:32.56wurp2yeah, I can usually make it through the day without listening to power metal
18:34.21SpeedEvilmickeyl: Also - the SIM. In some cases this may even have java crap in it.
18:35.15yoyohow many people use console to debug kernel using ttySAC0 it shoot by disable by default.
18:35.27wurp2Java runs *on the SIM*?
18:35.37SpeedEvilIt can - in some cases.
18:35.50SpeedEvilIt's not your average java of course.
18:36.24*** join/#openmoko Mathiasdm (n=Mathias@vpne045.ugent.be)
18:36.28wurp2I have a Java ring at home from a few years ago, but it's still a few orders of magnitude bigger than a SIM...
18:36.31abraxa_Good night, Sup3rkiddo
18:36.40SpeedEvilhttp://www.3g.co.uk/PR/Sept2003/5817.htm
18:36.44*** join/#openmoko tomjoad (n=tomjoad@adsl-70-130-139-0.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net)
18:37.35SpeedEvilLaunch of a java SIM in 2003
18:37.50wurp2SpeedEvil: wow
18:38.39SpeedEviljava ring?
18:38.48wurp2Yeah
18:39.29SpeedEvilOh - right.
18:39.32SpeedEvilThat's near.
18:39.33wurp2The Sun guys gave it to the Magicosm team members as a thank you when they showed us at GDC2001
18:39.44SpeedEvilhttp://www.useit.com/papers/javaring.html
18:39.48wurp2I guess that's more than a few years ago now
18:39.48pwgen_1hello
18:40.26wurp2Yeah, that's the one
18:40.59SpeedEvilDoes it have a display?
18:41.16SpeedEvilOh - is that just a 1-wire java button?
18:41.59wurp2Yep
18:42.12*** join/#openmoko quicksand (i=3f51a178@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e313fabe05e0fbac)
18:42.16wurp2You have to have a plug to stick it in for it to interact with the outside world in any way
18:42.30wurp2The only really cool thing about it is the embedded public/private key
18:42.58wurp2w/ the private key being totally inaccessible except through an api, if I remember correctly
18:43.13SpeedEvilhttp://www.stm32circle.com/hom/index.php
18:43.26SpeedEvilfun dev kit - not quite as small
18:44.23wurp2verey cool, but I don't see any size references
18:44.24mmontourwurp2: I have one of the newer crypto iButtons on my keychain.
18:44.29wurp2s/verey/very/
18:44.41wurp2mmontour: I haven't seen those
18:44.54SpeedEvilwurp2: it's about 50mm diameter
18:45.09*** join/#openmoko ahbritto (n=guest@adsl-69-104-245-232.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
18:45.14wurp2SpeedEvil: Are you sure that isn't as small?
18:45.15SpeedEvilhttp://www.rapidonline.com/productinfo.aspx?&tier1=Electronic+Components&tier2=Integrated+Circuits&tier3=ST+Microcontrollers&tier4=STM32+Primer&moduleno=80672&catRef=73-4508 is a  better picture
18:45.46summatusmentismmontour: what is it?
18:45.57SpeedEvilNot the hover-over zoom
18:46.03SpeedEvilnote
18:47.49wurp2That stm32 is pretty darn cool
18:48.05wurp2I don't see notes about cpu speed or storage
18:48.12mmontourhttp://www.maxim-ic.com/products/ibutton/ for general info on iButtons. The crypto one (now discontinued) is a small CPU that runs Java, has 134K of NVRAM, and has an RSA coprocessor
18:48.17SpeedEvil70M/130K/20K or so
18:48.33wurp2enough to do lots of interesting things
18:48.42wurp2mmontour: thx
18:48.55quicksandI have been unable to fetch openmoko-alsa-scenarios, of all things, via SVN - and that's what is killing my build today.
18:49.01SpeedEvilIt's embedded - it's $3 in quantity. /me is currently designing stuff with ti.
18:49.11quicksandI wonder whether upgrading my bitbake to bleeding edge will fix that too
18:49.49wurp2mmontour: Is that the same thing as the java button I saw 8 years ago or so?
18:50.09*** join/#openmoko rcxdude (n=rcxdude@host86-147-87-6.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
18:50.24SpeedEvilWas it in a stainless steel can, about 7mm thick and 20mm dia?
18:50.25wurp2SpeedEvil: the stm32 is $3 in quantity?  The page you linked to said $25 per, I thought.  $3 per in quantity is quite a jump
18:50.53summatusmentismickeyl: "<lh> slot counts posted to the mentors list" from #gsoc
18:50.56wurp2SpeedEvil: I never saw one open.  It was about twice that diameter, though, I think
18:50.58SpeedEvilwurp2: Oh - no. That's an entire dev-thingy. And it's 25 pounds. triaxial accel, LCD, batteries, joystick.
18:51.12SpeedEvilwurp2: not just the chip.
18:51.16wurp2Oh, I see
18:51.24wurp2I thought stm32 referred to the dev thingy
18:51.34SpeedEvilwurp2: no - that's the name of the chip family.
18:51.50wurp2The accelerometer, memory, chip package was what sounded interesting to me
18:52.38mmontourwurp2: Yes, it's an upgraded version of the Java Ring but in a standard iButon package.
18:55.01*** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@wireless-128-62-203-190.public.utexas.edu)
18:55.23*** join/#openmoko ccfly (n=ccfly@89.212.76.77)
18:55.28ccflyhello :)
18:56.11*** join/#openmoko rcxdude (n=rcxdude@host86-147-87-6.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
18:59.36wurp2ccfly: hi
19:00.52*** join/#openmoko cb22 (n=federico@moinmoin/developer/federico)
19:06.18ScaredyCatCM: 599 votes
19:07.58xcasexfor?
19:08.18summatusmentis3g I assume
19:08.25summatusmentisor, the 3g poll
19:08.55SpeedEvilI want satellite + moonbounce.
19:09.08summatusmentissatellite connection?
19:09.11summatusmentisthey blow
19:09.16*** join/#openmoko Selveste1 (n=Selveste@85.235.243.199)
19:09.20cb22get a leo sat
19:09.26cb22less latency
19:10.13*** join/#openmoko ajbrun (n=ajbrun@host86-160-73-138.range86-160.btcentralplus.com)
19:10.21ScaredyCatxcasex: me?
19:10.23*** join/#openmoko Gybrush (n=Gybrush@f053154128.adsl.alicedsl.de)
19:10.44cb22599 people think ScaredyCat  kills kittens
19:11.14*** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@dsbg-4db7b4d0.pool.einsundeins.de)
19:17.04ScaredyCat~blame cb22
19:17.05aptACTION blames cb22 (and Canada) for all the evil in the world
19:18.34wurp2I prefer communication by using hot air balloons as relay stations
19:18.46pwgen_1does anyone managed a sleep resume cycle with the gta01 hardware ( without rebooting )
19:18.57wurp2pwgen_1: Someone has, yes
19:19.01wurp2But not with a recent release
19:19.17wurp2It sometimes works rebooting from power with a recent release, but not reliably
19:19.24wurp2s/reboot/resum/
19:21.16ScaredyCathttp://www.engadget.com/photos/van-der-leds-wm2-cellphone-is-slayer-approved/742402/
19:23.59pwgen_1it this a problem relatet to kernel , bootloader, system, or all of them
19:24.05pwgen_1i use an sharp c-3200 and sleep/resume works fine for c1000/3200 with an 2.4.18 kernel
19:24.09pwgen_1i wonder that there are so big probs with the moko
19:25.44wurp2Does anyone know how FIC came to the decision to put the micro sd slot behind the sim slot, with both behind the battery?
19:26.23wurp2Could they just not figure out another way to fit it all in?
19:28.01*** join/#openmoko playya__ (n=playya@pD9E0B8D0.dip.t-dialin.net)
19:29.25SpeedEvilPacking is a _horrible_ problem i phones.
19:30.27pwgen_1*FG*
19:30.54SpeedEvilin
19:32.12*** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@68-27-187-186.area1.spcsdns.net)
19:32.27*** join/#openmoko lifeeth (n=praneeth@202.3.77.38)
19:32.40quicksandpwgen_1: it's related primarily to bringing all of the peripherals into the appropriate state upon resume.
19:32.46quicksandSuspend is easy; resume is hard.
19:33.29quicksandAnd to make resume happen quickly upon certain hardware interrupts (e.g. incoming phone call), that's even harder.
19:34.51*** join/#openmoko greentux_ (n=lemke@tmo-095-212.customers.d1-online.com)
19:41.18SpeedEvilAt one point it was almost working
19:42.16Sonicadvancehmm
19:43.44I-MODhas the possibility of a kinetic battery pack been brought up? not to say it should launch with the freerunner, but as an aftermarket addon, it could add _SIGNIFICANT_ amounts to standby time and maybe even to talk time depending on how much you move around.  I have a kinetic watch that works perfectly, but the amount of power it uses is miniscule compared to that of a phone or a pda.  another possibility might be an entire backplate+batt
19:45.12SpeedEvilit works well for watches
19:45.45SpeedEvilthey need maybe a hundred thousandth of what a phone does
19:45.55I-MODlike i said, miniscule
19:45.57*** join/#openmoko Quadduc (n=stian@90.149.198.188)
19:47.01cdbot2* * OM Bug 1332 has been created by kevin(AT)foreverdean.info
19:47.02cdbot2* * (null) contact is sometimes saved
19:47.03cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1332
19:48.35pwgen_1quicksand: is the gsm able to do periodical interrupts   to implement someting like alarms
19:49.09SpeedEvilThe RTC chip can
19:55.49wurp2I-MOD: why do you think it would add significant amounts to standby time if it produces a miniscule amount of the power needed to run a phone?
19:57.31Jiten_wurp2: well, if you make a larger one, it should be able to make more power :P
19:58.06Jiten_think about it, charging your phone by waving it around ... ok, maybe not such a good idea :P
19:58.11*** join/#openmoko Tobi (n=tobi@pD9E86715.dip.t-dialin.net)
20:04.50wurp2Hrm - if I looked up the figures correctly & didn't make some basic math error, you have to lift 45 kg 30 meters to recharge a 3750 mWh battery
20:04.59SpeedEvilAbout that.
20:05.30I-MODwurp2, standby also takes a relatively low amount of power, I just haven't had time to find a kinetic charger or its specs and compare the two
20:05.30wurp2one watt-hour = 3600 joules
20:05.40SpeedEvil1.2Ah * 3.6V = 4Wh = 15000J
20:06.06SpeedEvilThat's 45Kg to 33m or so
20:07.17wurp2To increase 150 hour standby time by 10%, you would have to lift 45 kg 3 meters every 6 days or thereabouts
20:07.32Sonicadvanceo.O
20:07.33I-MODand I wasn't expecting it to keep the battery charged forever
20:07.33wurp27.5 kg 3 meters every day
20:08.06wurp2or 1 kg 3 meters every hour for 8 hours a day
20:08.22wurp2it seems too much, especially for a 10% increase in a 6 day standby time
20:08.27Sonicadvancethat,s not hard, just every hour throw the phone in the air and catch it xD
20:08.34*** join/#openmoko SirBob1701 (n=mcginley@139.84.102.34)
20:08.44SpeedEvilYou need to raise the phone by 7500m to charge it.
20:08.44wurp2It's a good idea, you just have to do the math to see whether or not it's a *feasible* idea
20:08.57SonicadvanceThrow it in the air...far
20:08.58SpeedEvilSo that's 100 throws to 7.5m
20:09.02I-MODin the case of something this small, it's only 1 or 2 grams which translates to more times a day or longer movement
20:09.04Sonicadvance:D
20:09.11*** join/#openmoko n0on3 (n=n0on3@81-208-83-247.fastres.net)
20:09.21SpeedEvilI-MOD: now compute 1 or 2 grams * a delta-vee of 10cm/s or so
20:09.29SpeedEvilI-MOD: it's a damn small power.
20:10.27ccflywell you could mount neo on a small hydrogen powered rocket such as .... Delta V ? :>
20:10.42Sonicadvancehehe
20:11.17I-MODnot unless you rip off one of its control surfaces and watch it spin
20:13.38Jiten_even if it's a lot of work to intentionally recharge it fully with the kinetic pack, it's useful alternative way of charging it if you really need some juice on it and can't use a charger :)
20:13.55*** join/#openmoko wibbit_ (n=douglasf@host-84-9-13-237.dslgb.com)
20:14.41edistar_how many mW do you get shaking for 1h?
20:14.43*** join/#openmoko wibbit_ (n=douglasf@host-84-9-13-237.dslgb.com)
20:14.56SpeedEvilIt depends.
20:15.03SpeedEvilIt's not really trivial to compute.
20:15.32SpeedEvilthe inputs are the weight of the free mass. The stroke of the mass.,
20:15.44*** join/#openmoko wibbit_ (n=douglasf@host-84-9-13-237.dslgb.com)
20:15.56SpeedEvilIn practice.
20:16.37SpeedEvilIf you're intentionally shaking it - unless the free mass is a sizable fraction of the mass of your arm, you get a _very_ inefficient transfer of energy.
20:17.33edistar_ok
20:18.07SpeedEvilSomething with a little winder handle can be 80% efficient without too much problems.
20:18.19SpeedEvilshaking may be lucky to get to 1%
20:18.41edistar_you could tie it on a string and swing it;)
20:19.03SpeedEvilThat doesn't actually help.
20:19.14Jiten_you mean tying the string somewhere and just making sure it's moving?
20:19.23edistar_ok, bad luck
20:19.25SpeedEvilYou need a mass which moves with respect to the structure.
20:19.36SpeedEvilAnd for some sort of generator between the two.
20:22.00wurp2Jiten_: I think the numbers show that it's not really useful at all - if you want an emergency recharger, get a hand crank or (preferably) foot pedal device, and even then it's going to be a LOT of work
20:22.22SpeedEvilActually - it's not that bad.
20:22.44SpeedEvilThere are sorts of batteries that can be charged in 5 min or so.
20:23.04edistar_goldcaps too:>
20:23.12SpeedEvilno - those are low energy
20:23.33*** join/#openmoko fgau (n=fgau@pD953A795.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
20:23.44SpeedEvilBut 40W for 7 minutes isn't really a large amount of exertion.
20:24.05rastersummatusmentis: i dont need to do exact matches only. i need to do "what word STARTS with "and..." for example
20:24.21rastera tree lets me know that a word exists that starts with "and..."
20:24.36rasterits the entire sub tree down the "a->n->d" branch
20:24.44SpeedEvilThat's equivanlt to a 120Kg person climbing up a 10cm step every 3s.
20:24.54raster(i really just need to know that 1 or more matches exist - i don't need them all)
20:25.02wurp2If you weight 90 kg, you need to raise yourself 15 meters to recharge - that's 75 times of stepping on a footpedal that's 2 decimeters off the ground
20:25.11wurp2not too bad, but still a lot of work
20:25.46SpeedEvil45W is _not_ a lot of work
20:26.00SpeedEvilIt is time consuming though.
20:26.03wurp2raster: You want that, with spelling errors?
20:26.20wurp2I mean, including items that have errors in them?
20:27.21wurp2If you allow 2 miskeys, after 2 letters you can't restrict the 'wordspace' at all
20:27.42wurp2after 3 characters it should match every word that has one letter in the same place as the three letters typed so far
20:27.47mjrwants one of them xo pull-cord things once the manufacturer has to spare to us outsiders
20:27.48wurp2which seems like a lot
20:28.14SpeedEvilpull-cord is a good solution.
20:28.16rasterwurp2: for each key u press i have a list of N possible keys you may have intended to press
20:28.30rasterfrom closest to your press point to furthest
20:28.30wurp2ah, so you assume no misspellings, only typos?
20:28.35SpeedEvilraster: and the 'diddn't mean to press any key'
20:28.37mjrWould work well together with my xo too. :ö
20:28.38rasteryes
20:28.42mjr:)
20:28.43wurp2that's not nearly as bad
20:28.44rasteri assume u just cant hit the right key
20:28.59wurp2except that it assumes users have perfect spelling :-)
20:29.08raster(all the time)
20:29.20rasterand you intend to type a full word that is in the dictionary
20:29.31rasterand yes- it assumes u can spell
20:29.48rasteri.e - you intend to write a word that is in the dictionary
20:30.03rasterright now it just corrects to the most probable match
20:30.10rasteri have no english word usage frequ3ency map
20:30.18wurp2it sounds very nice anyway - I know the change that lists predictive phone #s you might be calling in the dialer is a big boon to me
20:30.19rasterso i dont know if "dear" is more common than "fest"
20:30.22rasterso its not great
20:30.27SpeedEvilraster: usenet
20:30.33rasterBUT
20:30.34wurp2I almost never type more than 2 or 3 clicks once the dialer is up
20:30.44SpeedEvilraster: Or I have a few meg of IRC logs :)
20:30.56rasteri need to add a "list the top 10 or so corrections"
20:31.00rasterso u can choose fromt he corrections
20:31.04wurp2Or you can use Gutenberg, etc.
20:31.12rasterione of those in the list will be the thnig u typed without correction at all
20:31.17rasterso if u really want to mis-spell
20:31.18Qwellwurp2: "thee"
20:31.21rasteror enter a word thats not in the dict
20:31.29QwellI don't want it to correct "teh" with "thee" :p
20:31.32rasterthen it is there as an option
20:31.32wurp2Qwell: Yeah, you have to be choosy about which texts
20:31.39rasterselecting it should add to the dict :)
20:31.54SpeedEvilThere are sites with gigabytes of text out there.
20:32.04rasterwurp2: qtopia snarfs about 10mb of gutenburg text to build a freq map
20:32.05SpeedEvilUnfortunately, being the internet, they are all porn.
20:32.13rasteri just havent built one/got one yet
20:32.25rasterbut i do know that i should do it
20:32.50wurp2SpeedEvil: Heh, you type 'co' and the #1 word to complete it is 'cock'
20:33.28*** join/#openmoko Ryback_ (n=ulisses@enlightenment/developer/ryback)
20:33.34SpeedEvilCould be an amusing 'joke' dictionary to load for someone.
20:34.24*** join/#openmoko cb22 (n=federico@moinmoin/developer/federico)
20:35.18edistar_or a shakespeare one:)
20:35.20rasteri need to know something starts with "co"
20:35.31rasterbut i only list words that are complete matches
20:35.34rasterie - 2 letter words
20:35.45rasteru have to type the whole word
20:36.32*** part/#openmoko lifeeth (n=praneeth@202.3.77.38)
20:36.58edistar_so you search for 2-letter words starting with 'co'? ;)
20:39.00cb22so, anyone know what the preliminary slot count for gsoc is?
20:39.14SpeedEvilI vaguely recall someone said 70
20:39.15cb22ie, how many cool new features are we getting :p
20:39.20rasteredistar_: in the end i only list 2 letter words
20:39.26SpeedEvilraster: coagulate!
20:39.34*** join/#openmoko grummel (n=Grummel@p5B16FF70.dip.t-dialin.net)
20:39.42*** join/#openmoko pwgen (n=ew@201.140.180.58)
20:39.43rasterbut i need ti know while walking the tree that there are more possible matches down that branch
20:39.47rasterit saves a full search
20:39.49cb22SpeedEvil, i mean slots, not applicants who wanted to do the accelerometer :p
20:40.02rasterso irfu entered 3 letters
20:40.07rastercpl
20:40.13rasteri start with c
20:40.20rasteryes - lots of things sytart with c - a valid sub-tree
20:40.28SpeedEvilsees why raster needs an error tollerant keyboard.
20:40.30rastersp - nothng matches. throw away search down that tree branch
20:41.02rasterSpeedEvil: :-P
20:41.18cb22s/tollerant/tolerant/
20:41.48cb22:p
20:41.58summatusmentiswtf?!? why am I deleting 300k things securely?
20:42.02summatusmentisOS X is weird
20:43.05summatusmentisSpeedEvil: 70 slots for OM? what?
20:43.29macdonalder70 appications for openmoko in total maybe was the intended meaning?
20:43.45cb2262 to be precise
20:43.50macdonalderwell there :D
20:43.53summatusmentisthat makes more sense
20:44.11cb22summatusmentis, you have a 1 in 62 chance :p
20:44.22summatusmentiscb22: yeah :-/ probably not getting it
20:44.39cb22dont worry - 17 people chose the accelerometer ideas
20:44.39macdonaldercb22: openmoko was only assigned one slot? :S
20:44.48summatusmentisbut 13 of them was accelerometer
20:44.52cb22and only 1 will probably get it, so - 17 already
20:44.55summatusmentismacdonalder: minimum was 2
20:45.04macdonalderahh
20:45.16*** join/#openmoko bernt (n=bernt@dslb-084-060-113-253.pools.arcor-ip.net)
20:45.16summatusmentiscb22: according to list, 13 for accelerometer
20:45.20*** join/#openmoko greentux_ (n=lemke@80.187.148.97)
20:45.25summatusmentis57 unique people
20:45.28cb22my bad then, cant count!
20:45.48summatusmentisso. presumably I can remove 12 from 57(45
20:46.09summatusmentisand then, based on however many slots OM gets, it could be a 3 or 4 in 45 chance
20:46.14Qwellhe can do math.  I vote for him.
20:46.20macdonalderheh
20:46.50cb22and he hangs out in the irc channel too :)
20:46.59cb22some noddy points there
20:47.08macdonalderroll me with the bunch who put in an application for handling the accelerometers
20:47.29SpeedEvilrolls macdonalder at 1.37G.
20:47.37summatusmentisand then there's the bottle of Dom Perignon that I sent to mickey|zzZZzz, so i've really probably got a 1 in 5 chance :)
20:48.30SpeedEvilwonders how many of the accelerometer applications violate A) The laws of physics. B) Current state-of-the art $10K accels. C) The ones in the neo.
20:48.49summatusmentislol
20:49.15cb22from newton import physics
20:49.23cb22physics.ignore()
20:50.13summatusmentisFWIW, OpenAFS(another project I applied to) got 5 slots, minimum
20:50.18ScaredyCatyer cannie break the laws o physics,  laws o physics,  laws o physics, yer cannie break the laws o physics,  laws o physics jim
20:50.31macdonaldersummatusmentis: I'll see your Dom and raise you a Bollinger :P
20:50.51summatusmentismacdonalder: I don't know anything about wine, I picked something that I knew was supposed to be good
20:50.54summatusmentis:-D
20:51.28cb22and he included 500 euros. in 10 years, thats like the whole US economy :p
20:51.41macdonalderhaha
20:51.56*** join/#openmoko playya_ (n=playya@pD9E0B8D0.dip.t-dialin.net)
20:52.04rastercb22: hahahahahah
20:52.06macdonalderwell, I know when I'm beat
20:52.10summatusmentiscb22: :-D like I, as a poor college student, could scrounge up $500, let alone 500 euros
20:52.58summatusmentisOM might get a sizable amount of slots, OpenAFS got 5 minimum, and had 29 projects submitted
20:53.14summatusmentis13 different projects, 29 applications, sorry
20:53.23cb22yeah moin also got 4 or so
20:53.44summatusmentismickey|zzZZzz needs to wake up, and tell us how many we got!! :)
20:53.47abraxa_I wonder how they know
20:53.58summatusmentisa preliminary list was released to mentors today
20:54.05abraxa_oh
20:54.23summatusmentis(I need something else to base my obsession on :D)
20:54.27macdonalderI was figuring yesterday, based purely on proportions, openmoko could get as many as 9 or so could it not?
20:54.52cb22maybe stefan_schmidt knows?
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20:55.39macdonalderassuming the applications were varied enough in ideas... they'd hardly assign 9 slots to have 9 people working on the same thing ;)
20:55.42cb22macdonalder, but remember openafs poses no thread to android
20:55.48cb22</conspiracy>
20:55.49macdonalderhaha yes
20:55.56macdonaldersomeone brought that up the other day
20:56.07rasterafs?
20:56.08rasterandroid?
20:56.09rasterwh?
20:56.19cb22andrew file system afaik
20:56.23summatusmentisraster: OpenAFS is another project I applied to
20:56.25rasteryeah
20:56.32rasterwhat has afs got to do with android in any way?
20:56.38cb22nothing
20:56.39macdonalderit doesn't
20:56.41cb22thats the thing
20:56.42rasterhmm
20:56.43rasterok
20:56.47cb22openmoko and android do
20:56.57rasteryes
20:57.03cb22google could be being evil :p
20:57.07summatusmentismacdonalder: what were you basing your calculations on?
20:57.20cb22doesnt want the google spies to hear him
20:58.16macdonaldersummatusmentis: number of total applications to GSoC (~7000), number to OpenMoko (~70 apparently), number of sponsord projects (~900)
20:58.23ScaredyCatcould be?
20:58.26ScaredyCatare
20:58.33abraxa_900 projects?!
20:58.42summatusmentis#to OM is closer to ~60
20:58.50summatusmentisand I think google was saying ~1000 slots
20:59.06macdonalderyeah, the numbers were a little iffy
20:59.09cb228 slots or so then
20:59.18abraxa_Time will tell :)
20:59.23macdonaldernods
20:59.41abraxa_We'll see great things one way or another
20:59.53ScaredyCatwonders if that's slots or sluts
21:00.26cb22ScaredyCat, they are more related then you think...
21:00.30abraxa_buys dirty minded ScaredyCat a ticket to his wife
21:00.46ScaredyCattravels back tomorrow
21:00.51abraxa_ohhhh
21:01.07abraxa_See, I'm psychic :)
21:01.15ScaredyCatthinks google sluts would have open sores
21:01.27abraxa_rofl...
21:02.28cb22ha, we are bigger then #android
21:02.34abraxa_314!
21:02.39abraxa_We are the pi!
21:02.44cb22vs 80~
21:03.24ScaredyCathow many in #android are corporate shills ?
21:03.41cb22everyone except ChanServ?
21:03.46ScaredyCatlol
21:04.13slaxxeran the open clan wars begin  
21:04.16macdonalderhides as s0ny
21:04.49ScaredyCatslaxxer: android isn't open
21:04.55slaxxero
21:05.05*** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@dsbg-4db7c4a6.pool.einsundeins.de)
21:05.14wurp2As he said, they begin ;-)
21:05.19cb22brings out libc^Wnukes
21:05.33rasterrthey should call it open android
21:05.37rasterthen i'd be open
21:05.40rasterit'd
21:05.41raster:)
21:06.09summatusmentisis android like an OS X of mobile? OSS base, but then proprietary GUI?
21:06.29*** join/#openmoko emonkey (n=emonkey@ubuntu/member/emonkey)
21:06.47edistar_summatusmentis: yep
21:06.52summatusmentismm
21:07.18ScaredyCatandroid shmandroid
21:07.35*** join/#openmoko freelock (n=john@74.94.64.217)
21:07.35rastera big diff between OM and android
21:07.45ScaredyCatm
21:07.46rasterOM is using standard linux libs, software and components
21:07.47rasterwe use X
21:07.59cb22yeah, we have raster, they cant beat us :D
21:08.01ScaredyCatat the moment
21:08.01rasterfor android u need to write apps SPECIFICALLy for their gui
21:08.02*** join/#openmoko TAsn-ghost (n=TAsn@89.1.180.30.dynamic.barak-online.net)
21:08.05rastertheir encvironment
21:08.15rasterfor OM u can port and just adjust a ui to fit on a low res small screen
21:08.18rasterthe rest is the same
21:08.22edistar_luckily, otherwise OM would be superfluous
21:08.50rasteri personally think any linux based phone os that isnt trying to emulate desktop development as much as possible is a long-term waste of time
21:09.23summatusmentisraster: functionality-wise? or look wise?
21:09.39rasternuts-and-bolts-wise
21:09.44summatusmentisyou can have desktop functionality using a completely different interface tailored for mobile
21:09.47rasteri.e - be able to use any toolkits u use on the desktop
21:09.51raster(gtk, qt, whatever)
21:09.53summatusmentisoh, that makes sense, I agree w/ that
21:10.08rasterbe able to write apps in any lang u use on a desktop (c, c++, java, python etc. etc.)
21:10.21rasterso your development flow/environment/whatever changes as little as possible
21:10.30summatusmentisright, that makes sense to me
21:10.48rasteryou DO (as a practical matter) have to adjust the ui to simply be able to display info in a low res (vga in our case - likely u need to adjust to be less too)
21:11.00rasterand be able to accep inptu from the limited input mechanisms on a phone
21:11.09rasterbut as such thats most of what u should really be doing
21:11.33summatusmentisI agree w/ everything you said, I thought you mean something like GNOME on a phone, which wouldn't work IMO
21:11.37raster(well other than making your app efficient as u have only 128m ram and a slow processor etc. at your disposal - but frankly making an app efficient is something u should have done to start with anyway)
21:11.45*** join/#openmoko affen (n=kala@194.126.113.157)
21:11.49rasterand no
21:11.53rasternot a "gnome" phone
21:12.00rasterbut if i write an app - it works under gnome
21:12.02rasterunder kde
21:12.07rasterunder enlightenment
21:12.09rasterudner fluxbox
21:12.13rasterunder xfce ...
21:12.16summatusmentisyes, all that I agree w/
21:12.19SpeedEvilunder fvwm95
21:12.23rasteri can use gtk or qt or sdl or efl
21:12.28rasterit's my choice as a developer
21:12.37rasteri can use c, c++,, python etc.
21:13.00rasteri think this is the mistake almsot every linux "hpone os" makes
21:13.13rasterthey build some monolithin stack and try and shoe-horn app developers into it
21:13.20summatusmentismm
21:13.22rasterand that just pisses me off
21:13.26rasteras a dev
21:13.40rasterwhen i KNOW the os under all of it is something i can normally program nicely for the way i like
21:13.46rasterand then i get artificial constraints
21:13.56summatusmentisjust out of curiousity, is OM planning on doing a huge ad campaign when the software stack is ready?
21:14.05rasternot that i know of
21:14.21summatusmentisnot really mass-marketing the phone?
21:14.32cb22maybe for 03
21:14.42cb22i doubt for 02 though
21:14.57summatusmentisI guess i feel like if mass market is the goal, there needs to be some sort of campaign to market it
21:15.18cb22s/mass market/mass developers/
21:15.26cb22thats what i think imho
21:16.08summatusmentisis it a feasible business strategy?
21:16.52summatusmentisgoes to play kickball
21:17.06edistar_summatusmentis: depends on how much resources and time OM has.. if they try to gather experience and software, yes
21:17.13rastersummatusmentis:  we are a logn way from mass market
21:17.32*** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@85.233.59.8.static.cablesurf.de)
21:17.36rasterright now we are still very much about providing a platform developers LIKE
21:17.48rasteri know that's my primary goal
21:18.04rasterwe can't go runing headlong into mass market land without a solid war-machine
21:18.12rasterand that war-machine is a platofmr devs LIKE
21:18.31abraxa_Yeah, and establishing a common base we can declare as an official set of libraries/APIs to use and rely on
21:18.34edistar_and hundreds of apps :)
21:18.57edistar_cause tha'll be the enduser advantage of using OM
21:19.00rasteredistar_:  thats a result of makign a platform devs like (and is trivial to dev for and adapt software to)
21:19.32edistar_raster: yeah
21:20.31*** join/#openmoko playya_ (n=playya@pD9E0B8D0.dip.t-dialin.net)
21:21.15ccflygood night
21:21.19ccflyhappy hacking
21:24.07raster:)
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21:35.47cb22hacks with a chainsaw
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21:59.10pykniteis impatient to get his gta02 ;)
21:59.56cb22_is more impatient
22:00.45wurp2I was so impatient I bought an '01
22:00.56pyknite:P
22:01.20unknown_lamermy nokia 7610 can't hold on my longer
22:01.36unknown_lamerluckily it doesn't have to much longer
22:02.19pyknitea few more weeks and normally we will get one ( if what i read this morning is right )
22:02.28macdonalderstill has a motorola v551
22:02.38unknown_lameras long as the gta02 can last for an entire day without being charged (I ask for nothing more as my battery has been shot for well over a year and dies after an hour of talking nowadays ... but it must sit idle and all)
22:02.51unknown_lamersince the PMU looks to actually work I have hope
22:02.56wurp2pyknite: I haven't seen anyone indicate how long they expect the 2nd & 3rd PVT iterations to take :-(
22:03.35wurp2unknown_lamer: Well, until they get suspend/resume to work, or at least cpufreq, afaik it will be about the same as the '01, no?
22:04.13pyknitewurp2: this morning before the update on the community page, there where a post saying that we don't need anymore to wait month but only a few week
22:04.31wurp2pyknite: Thanks for the update!
22:04.37wurp2reads the wiki...
22:04.37unknown_lamerwurp2: there are patches in the kernel for cpufreq and suspend/resume issues are mostly fix iirc
22:05.07wurp2unknown_lamer: FR specific patches?
22:05.10unknown_lamerwurp2: the thing with gta01 is that it has a bum PMU and some board problems iirc
22:05.13pyknitewurp2: but kow it changed again with a post from the
22:05.17pykniteoups sry
22:05.44pyknitebut now it changed again
22:06.39*** join/#openmoko polz (n=polz@cpe-213-157-235-31.dynamic.amis.net)
22:07.09wurp2pyknite: Yeah, I think the new info is more correct
22:07.56wurp2I would guess that something will happen near the beginning of May
22:08.03pyknitewurp2: yep.... those i read this morning was juste below the update from 25 march
22:08.13wurp2but I woulda said that about April, and March, and Feb, etc. a month before each of them came
22:08.17wurp2:-)
22:08.26pyknite:P
22:08.30cb22well...
22:08.45cb2218 march was when the first pvt run started
22:08.59wurp2agh, that's longer than I remembered
22:09.00cb22and completed on the 7 of april
22:09.06cb22give or take
22:09.12cb2220 days
22:09.17wurp2Yeah, that would imply 6 weeks until PVTs done
22:09.31pykniteerf
22:09.40wurp2Then however long until they have enough mass produced units
22:09.42pykniteand next more waiting for production
22:10.00wurp2July release, here we come
22:10.33cb22places bets for july too
22:10.36unknown_lamerthat assumes that the other two pvt runs take the same amount of time
22:10.59*** join/#openmoko Kero (n=kero@i164013.upc-i.chello.nl)
22:11.01pyknitei can't wait 3 month more :(
22:11.16wurp2unknown_lamer: sure
22:11.23wurp2You think they'll take longer? ;-)
22:11.31cb22could be shorter
22:11.44pyknitehopefully
22:11.45cb221st pvt is more of a milestone then the second
22:11.50*** join/#openmoko broedje (n=broedje@92.117.166.36)
22:12.17wurp2gtg, have fun guys
22:13.05yoyosleep time
22:13.07yoyosijaa
22:14.11*** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@72-254-141-107.client.stsn.net)
22:14.47pyknitesleep time too.... get a fu***** mips'assembler test tomorrow :(
22:15.36unknown_lamerpyknite: good luck!
22:15.46unknown_lamerwishes he hadn't dropped outish before he got to build a mips
22:16.18pyknitethx
22:16.54pyknitei will need luck ;)
22:21.06*** join/#openmoko heikkit (n=chatzill@c-67-188-122-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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22:27.19lkclhttp://www.wireless3g4free.com/
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22:36.31stevecrozzlooks like we're nearing my dream of owning an open phone! i am excited
22:37.23CIA-41freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r165 10/trunk/software/py-odeviced/ (4 files in 2 dirs): py-odeviced: add cython-module for wireless power
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23:04.53CthobsDid I miss another email? Is there is a reason for a 404 on fetch attempt for /git_git.openmoko.org.git.kernel.git_4194.tar.gz?
23:05.59abraxa_~logs
23:06.00aptwell, logs is apt/ibot/infobot/jbot/purl all log daily to http://ibot.rikers.org/<channelname>/ where channelname is html encoded ie: %23debian | lines that start with a space are not shown | some channels have stats at http://ibot.rikers.org/stats/<channelname>.html.gz
23:06.56abraxa_Cthobs: See http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko.txt from 18:11 on onwards
23:07.42Cthobsabraxa_: Thanks
23:07.56*** join/#openmoko gamin (n=m@car06-3-82-240-156-91.fbx.proxad.net)
23:08.19abraxa_18:31:34 has the quick'n'dirty workaround
23:09.31summatusmentisabraxa_: mickey|zzZZzz keeps making commits to fs.o that fit into my project :)
23:09.38summatusmentisthat's not a good sign
23:11.17abraxa_Dunno... Could be that he just wants something hack-ish *now* and something proper from you
23:12.01summatusmentisit's possible
23:12.54abraxa_Yeah, cause he wants to refine the API to set it in stone - and best way to do that is by having an implementation
23:13.16abraxa_Doesn't mean he'll implement *all* aspects of it so maybe he'll leave that to you
23:13.39*** join/#openmoko rtm (n=rtm@pool-151-203-42-17.bos.east.verizon.net)
23:14.07summatusmentismm... I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high... it just furthers my obsessive qualities :)
23:14.24abraxa_lol
23:14.27abraxa_I know how you feel
23:14.33abraxa_I try not to think about it
23:14.43abraxa_There's nothing I can do until the 18th anyway
23:15.49abraxa_I mean... what's the point if a mentor tells me "we like your project" just to end up on spot #5 when Openmoko ends up getting 3 slots again
23:15.59summatusmentisyeah, I suppose
23:16.04abraxa_I would've gotten my hopes up and shattered by google :)
23:16.39summatusmentisyeah, that's what I'm worried about :) People seemed to think we'd get maybe 9 slots
23:16.50summatusmentisif following the guidelines that google described
23:17.01abraxa_That would rock but I'm wary of that
23:17.11summatusmentishow come?
23:17.24summatusmentiswell, first off, how many mentors are there, do we know?
23:17.36abraxa_6
23:18.00abraxa_Each of them can vote
23:18.03summatusmentisok, so OM won't probably get more than 6 projects, unless they can find more mentors
23:18.11abraxa_err
23:18.13abraxa_Not quite
23:18.14abraxa_Lemme show you
23:18.20summatusmentisuh, ok
23:18.31abraxa_http://code.google.com/soc/2007/coresystems/about.html
23:18.33abraxa_Have a look
23:18.46abraxa_How often do you see "Stefan Reinauer" as mentor?
23:19.02*** join/#openmoko zedstar_ (n=john@82-44-200-69.cable.ubr08.haye.blueyonder.co.uk)
23:19.09summatusmentislol, oh. Alright, point taken
23:19.15abraxa_:)
23:19.22abraxa_7 projects... 1 mentor
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23:20.04rtmWe need a Google Summer of Cloning.
23:20.06abraxa_So really, too many variables
23:20.11summatusmentisdo you know how many projects OM requested?
23:20.30zedstar_google summer of clothes
23:20.35zedstar_a new fashion brand
23:21.38abraxa_Summer of Cloning?
23:21.43abraxa_What would that be? :O
23:22.00macdonalderto produce more mentor I'd imagine ;)
23:22.05macdonalder*mentors
23:28.25zedstar_btw i saw the accelerometers in action tonight in the freerunner prototype
23:28.44summatusmentisare they cool?
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23:30.14zedstar_well yeh seem to work! thos did a small app to display some data from it
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23:31.00abraxa_Could've used mickey's demo app to automatically switch between landscape and portrait
23:32.24zedstar_was quite a bit of interest in the phone at this event which cant be bad i guess
23:34.22stevecrozzzedstar_: I haven't been able to see the phone in person yet, do you have a freerunner?
23:36.13zedstar_no....was at an event tonight in london where there was a prototype
23:36.18summatusmentiszedstar_: could be bad if they run out once sale goes public
23:36.35*** join/#openmoko christooss (n=matic@89-212-38-28.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net)
23:37.21zedstar_lot of people there were keen to see it which is not always the case at some of the mobile events i attend
23:39.42summatusmentisthat's cool
23:40.19stevecrozzwell i certainly am, i absolutely can't wait, I've been putting off getting a new phone for almost a year now
23:40.24stevecrozzbecause ive been waiting for this
23:40.39zedstar_the speaker was great i thought... ole tange
23:40.45summatusmentisgod... cyanide and happiness isn't really that funny
23:41.24summatusmentisstevecrozz: I'm waiting until  my conract expires(nov I think), unless I get one through SoC
23:41.54stevecrozzi don't have a contract thankfully, those are so 2007 :)
23:42.27summatusmentis(on cdma)
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23:44.55Cthobsabraxa_: Any idea which bb file yoyo was referring to?
23:46.20abraxa_Cthobs: bitbake/lib/bb/feth/git.py
23:50.22rtmDoes anyone happen to know where I can find the pixmaps (open.png, etc) which gpe-gallery requires, but does not provide?
23:51.16abraxa_gpe-icons IIRC
23:51.41rtmabraxa: I'll try that.   Thanks!
23:52.05abraxa_np =3
23:53.25rtmabraxa: You were right.   Thanks again.

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