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| 01:22.28 | mrcucumber | maybe due April :) ? |
| 01:24.00 | mwester | Seems a reasonable guess... |
| 01:28.00 | *** topic/#openmoko by SpeedEvil -> Welcome to the OpenMoko support and discussion channel! | http://openmoko.org/ | New version is the FreeRunner (with WiFi and pre-alpha software) maybe due April | Official status: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates |
| 01:29.51 | Qwell | diff -u oldtopic newtopic |
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| 01:31.01 | Vegar | Qwell: (with WiFi...) -> (with WiFi and pre-alpha software) |
| 01:31.16 | Qwell | not quite -u, but that'll do! |
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| 03:18.30 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:18.58 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 03:21.16 | mwester | It's ok - talking to yourself isn't nearly the problem as arguing with yourself (and it's even worse when you begin to lose). |
| 03:22.49 | CIA-17 | openmoko: 03werner * r4211 10/developers/werner/ahrt/host/tmc/ (python.c tmc.c tmc.h): |
| 03:22.49 | CIA-17 | openmoko: - tmc.c (tmc_stop): close the asynchronous file handler |
| 03:22.49 | CIA-17 | openmoko: - tmc.c (struct tmc_dsc, tmc_start, tmc_stop, launch), tmc.h (tmc_start), |
| 03:22.49 | CIA-17 | openmoko: python.c (tmc_py_start): added optional second argument with a command to |
| 03:22.49 | CIA-17 | openmoko: send to restart asynchronous read |
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| 03:25.05 | mwester | Yay! My second build for the day is done, now to flash that and see if this build works any better. |
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| 03:43.39 | mwester | Nope. Just as bad... :( |
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| 03:49.46 | roh | mwester: what's youre hacking on? |
| 03:50.15 | mwester | I'm just trying to get the recent builds to work again. |
| 03:51.11 | roh | uhm |
| 03:51.21 | roh | which problem? |
| 03:51.21 | mwester | Something seems to be messed up with X somewhere - no applets, and there's a cursor on the display. Looks like the wm isnt' doing its job. |
| 03:52.44 | roh | hm.. too bad i havent built that stuff for month myself. been to busy with all that other shit |
| 03:52.53 | mwester | matchbox-wm: Failed to parse theme file: /usr/share/themes/openmoko-standard-2/matchbox/theme.xml |
| 03:53.11 | mwester | Suspicious, but I don't have a good build handy to compare. |
| 03:53.39 | mwester | ** (matchbox-panel-2:2094): WARNING **: Error calling GetMemoryStatus: Method "GetMemoryStatus" with signature "" on interface "org.openmoko.PhoneKit.Sms" doesn't exist |
| 03:53.54 | roh | mwester: ive read the builds form feb. 8th were good.. |
| 03:53.59 | mwester | What is phonekit? |
| 03:54.13 | mwester | I'll download if necessary, I suppose. |
| 03:54.24 | roh | phonekit will be the middleware we are all missing so badly all the last year |
| 03:54.33 | roh | atleast thats how i understood it |
| 03:55.02 | mwester | Ok. i guess that's a good thing... |
| 03:55.19 | roh | yes ;) |
| 03:55.58 | roh | well.. mokounderground prooves that common concepts, middleware, basic userland and drivers is important. |
| 03:56.42 | roh | UI, well.. i as a idealistic linux geek (not as om-employee in that case) embrace the diversity of UI or userinterface |
| 03:57.18 | roh | i would even bet that there is a usergroup which would love a UI completely in ncurses (with added tslib support) and scripted in lua or so |
| 03:57.30 | mwester | I thought I was subscribed to all the right mailing lists to keep up on what's going on, but it seems some of this new stuff is leaking into the builds. Which is fine, as long as it's not that stuff that's breaking the rootfs rigth now. |
| 03:58.03 | mwester | If it's involved in the current broken-ness, it would have been nice to have a notice on the om-distro list to let folks know that something was changing. :( |
| 03:58.15 | roh | but 'dial number <foo>' and 'configure mixer for handset' and similar stuff... well.. all these UI could share that (should imho) |
| 03:58.39 | holycow | roh, i know people that would infact love a curses ui |
| 03:58.55 | roh | mwester: are you building mtn.openembedded.org or monotone.openmoko.org trees? |
| 03:59.05 | roh | holycow *g* |
| 03:59.17 | holycow | my self i want to see kde4 develop more and have that available on the moko with moko specific apps of course |
| 03:59.21 | mwester | mtn.openembedded.org -- the om one hasn't been useful for a month or more. |
| 04:00.06 | roh | hehe.. well.. if you would have read the OE devel discussions about merging and branching and SCM choices... |
| 04:00.17 | mwester | I've participated in that :D |
| 04:01.07 | roh | hrhr |
| 04:01.20 | mwester | How anyone can think that an SCM tool that requires physical separation of servers in order to provide something stable is a good SCM choice is quite beyond me! |
| 04:01.32 | roh | i personally like hg (because of the UI) but i dunno about its merging caps. others need to work that out |
| 04:02.30 | roh | the linuxtv.org guys run everything in hg and do only the upstream-processing in git. |
| 04:03.02 | roh | http://www.linuxtv.org/hg/ |
| 04:03.05 | mwester | At this point, I think we just need to change to *anything*, and try it. Monotone is a disaster. |
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| 04:03.23 | mwester | If we choose wrong, well, it can't be worse than monotone. |
| 04:03.28 | mwester | We'll just have switch again. |
| 04:04.03 | mwester | (I'm just sorry for the poor chap that has to "merge" the OM stuff back into the OE database; I hope there's not a lot of that) |
| 04:04.06 | roh | *g* |
| 04:04.46 | roh | ah.. the linuxtv guys have 2 upstream repos at kernel.org and do only the hg trees on their own setup |
| 04:04.54 | mwester | Anyway, I'm refetching, deleting my tmp folder, and resetting all my local.conf settings to defaults - I'll build with that and see what runs in the morning. |
| 04:04.59 | roh | one is 'for upstream' one is 'with all the experimental shit' |
| 04:05.22 | mwester | Well, we have accomplished separation of those two. :D |
| 04:05.44 | roh | i think whats getting built atm on buildhost is the monotone.openmoko.org tree |
| 04:06.05 | mwester | The migration of "experimental shit" to "this actually works and should go upstream" should ideally be a simple SCM command. |
| 04:06.05 | roh | btw.. whats your opinion on trac |
| 04:06.37 | roh | mwester: jap. |
| 04:06.49 | mwester | We use it on the nslu2-linux projects; it seems well-thought-out, but we don't use it to its fullest in any way. |
| 04:07.29 | mwester | It's overkill for a small (one - three?) person project, I think. Probably much more useful for mid-size. |
| 04:07.38 | roh | do you miss any features that bugzilla would give you? |
| 04:08.19 | mwester | Er, I can't be objective on that. I'm a long-time bugzilla user, so I prefer bugzilla's UI. But that may be only because I use it all the time. |
| 04:08.28 | mwester | I find queries with bugzilla to be much easier. |
| 04:08.29 | roh | i see. |
| 04:08.55 | mwester | I've never done any behind-the-scenes admin on Trac, either. |
| 04:09.43 | roh | what would you say if i'd like to move openmoko to trac? as a contributor you would be 'forced' to use it... thats why i am still hesitating to 'just do it' ;) |
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| 04:10.16 | __catron1 | I seriously want one of these |
| 04:11.15 | __catron1 | When will the Neo FreeRunner be avaliable? |
| 04:11.28 | Qwell | __catron1: per topic "maybe due April" |
| 04:11.36 | mwester | roh: which part of openmoko? projects.openmoko ? |
| 04:11.37 | __catron1 | okay |
| 04:11.38 | __catron1 | thanks |
| 04:11.58 | __catron1 | amazing specs for such a small device |
| 04:12.17 | roh | mwester the bugzilla mainly. projects i would love to be a tracforge or so, but thats not there yet (tm) and also missing things like mailman intrgration |
| 04:13.12 | roh | mwester: using the trac-wiki for documentation only, keeping the mediawiki for 'the community'. |
| 04:13.21 | Qwell | svn+mantis :p |
| 04:13.37 | roh | also means we can reduce the number of different accounts/passwords somebody has |
| 04:13.40 | holycow | yeah the moko specs are pretty damn good indeed |
| 04:13.42 | mwester | Well, as a user I would find bugzilla easier to query and update than trac, but that might just be because I'm accustomed to it. However, if someone were to actually implement and use the project tracking stuff with trac, that would be a great feature we currently lack. |
| 04:13.57 | holycow | you get more in a moko than iphone |
| 04:14.36 | roh | Qwell well.. from what i hear from ther projects that doesnt solve the 'its too complicated to use' issues we are facing here |
| 04:14.44 | Qwell | svn? |
| 04:15.10 | Qwell | svn is pretty damn easy. we use it for asterisk, and every core dev loves it |
| 04:15.13 | roh | Qwell yes. svn is too complicated for some as well ;) |
| 04:15.21 | Qwell | oh, mantis then? yeah, mantis isn't great. |
| 04:15.41 | Qwell | we did add svn integration to it though, so it works alright |
| 04:15.46 | roh | Qwell i meant the bugzilla is 'full of useless buttons' and really intended for hardcore geeks, not for users |
| 04:15.57 | Qwell | yeah, I don't like bugzilla.. |
| 04:18.01 | roh | mwester: thats the point i am targeting at. i want people to understand whats happening quickly, so they can focus on their problem/project and not being held hostage in webapps |
| 04:26.17 | roh | what do you think? just speak frankly. currently i am still unshure if i should do (and would winn) a poll about that on some list, but my guts rĀtell me that regardless of what i or my boss say, the community should have a word in this |
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| 04:32.13 | mwester | My opinion, to be quite honest, is that openmoko should do what is in the best interest of openmoko; the community's primary desire is to remain informed. So if changing some infrastructure would make it easier for the OM team to keep bug reports up to date, or track a problem, then it's more likely that the information will be maintained and current. |
| 04:32.51 | holycow | i would second that |
| 04:33.03 | holycow | i think that the moko team has to focus on the core customers |
| 04:33.09 | holycow | and give them things they want to buy |
| 04:33.13 | holycow | listen to them |
| 04:33.18 | holycow | but make their own decisions |
| 04:33.27 | holycow | moko is such a cool device |
| 04:33.42 | holycow | however because one of their core constituents are geeks |
| 04:33.51 | Qwell | it's so hard to keep communities happy |
| 04:33.54 | holycow | the area is wide open for exploration and product development |
| 04:34.03 | holycow | her eis a very cool example: |
| 04:34.05 | kdean06 | Qwell, Indeed it is. :) |
| 04:34.13 | Qwell | <-- been there (still there) |
| 04:34.31 | holycow | http://buglabs.net/ |
| 04:34.31 | __catron1 | what are the openmoko emu controls? I already know enter is down and space enter |
| 04:34.33 | Qwell | we have to push back on management quite a bit |
| 04:34.39 | holycow | moko could develop a module for buglabs |
| 04:34.41 | holycow | or vice versa |
| 04:34.56 | holycow | or moko could do their own 'sleeker' buglabs kind of deal wher eyou put devices together |
| 04:35.13 | holycow | i would say that developers in general are just a nasty bunch |
| 04:35.17 | Qwell | holycow: is that the module hardware thing? |
| 04:35.17 | holycow | they are always unhappy |
| 04:35.22 | Qwell | modular, rather |
| 04:35.23 | holycow | yeah |
| 04:35.29 | Qwell | cool idea |
| 04:35.40 | holycow | how i see moko is not really as a phone |
| 04:35.50 | holycow | but a pcb that could be fit into different formats |
| 04:35.54 | holycow | and different purposes |
| 04:36.03 | holycow | now clearly the two projects have little in common |
| 04:36.19 | holycow | but one could take the moko idea and extend it to other products i'm sure |
| 04:37.22 | holycow | anyway i'd like to see the moko project popular and profitable, its a give and take, but gotta make money at ait |
| 04:37.24 | kdean06 | holycow, FIC/OM have extended it. :) It's how they make money. |
| 04:37.33 | holycow | kdean06: have they already? |
| 04:37.40 | kdean06 | The idea is to let the user/customer decide how it shoujld be used. |
| 04:37.44 | kdean06 | Yes, Dash... |
| 04:37.53 | holycow | holy cow |
| 04:37.54 | holycow | haha |
| 04:37.58 | holycow | :) sweet! |
| 04:38.00 | holycow | googling |
| 04:38.10 | roh | hm.. nice idea that lego-style computer.. but would one have it in his pocket as phone? i thought ours is bulky |
| 04:38.44 | holycow | roh, well bulky yeah |
| 04:38.54 | kdean06 | roh, I think that's less "usable" and more "able". |
| 04:38.56 | holycow | but if you could extend the moko like that ... |
| 04:39.01 | holycow | could be interesting i donno |
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| 04:39.23 | roh | well.. replace the case and do what you want. |
| 04:39.24 | holycow | the point of the stackable computer is more utilitarian, than functionally specific |
| 04:39.34 | holycow | roh: sure :) |
| 04:39.40 | roh | there is a serial, spi and i2c on the debug-con without soldering |
| 04:39.46 | holycow | lol i intend to muck about anyway, i'm just saying |
| 04:40.50 | roh | anyhow.. i will be writing a mail about that tracifiying idea of mine and see if i can crawl out of the pile of flames after that again |
| 04:41.58 | holycow | that dash thing is really neat |
| 04:42.57 | holycow | i'll bookmark and orde one soon |
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| 04:49.33 | mwester | Well, hows about that. theme.xml is broken, and apparently nobody has noticed. :( |
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| 04:50.59 | roh | holycow yeah, too bad its only for the us |
| 04:51.48 | holycow | oh us? i missed that part |
| 04:55.59 | SpeedEvil | roh: any likelyhood of getting dash software on the freerunner? |
| 05:07.02 | dvarnes | cd .. |
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| 05:37.30 | roh | SpeedEvil i dunno, but i doubt it. |
| 05:38.47 | roh | SpeedEvil you buy the device and get some built-in data-only simcard with it and there is some deal so your dash is always online via gprs |
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| 06:32.24 | CVirus | http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-base-00-stdkit.html "The Consumer-ready hardware will be available around year's end" |
| 06:32.27 | CVirus | wtf !!!! |
| 06:35.57 | xaid | CVirus: Thats from before 2008 started... |
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| 06:41.53 | CVirus | this has gone too far really |
| 06:42.04 | CVirus | I've been waiting forever |
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| 06:50.42 | roh | CVirus sorry about that |
| 06:52.44 | roh | CVirus but stay assured that we have real _progress_ and gta02 is coming soon |
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| 06:53.10 | CVirus | roh: then an official release date must be set soon too |
| 06:53.24 | CVirus | roh: just to hold the crowd |
| 06:53.45 | roh | CVirus no. better no date than a broken promise. |
| 06:53.53 | CVirus | hmm |
| 06:53.56 | CVirus | true |
| 06:54.16 | CVirus | roh: you're an OM developer ? |
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| 06:54.51 | roh | we want to be truthful to our customers, but that does not make the informations we give out easy to sort into the picture to everybody since some are intended for developers, others to users |
| 06:55.06 | roh | CVirus i am OM employee |
| 06:55.23 | CVirus | pleased to meet you |
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| 07:42.37 | cb22 | hmm, |
| 07:42.59 | cb22 | 'We have see the Freerunner working; it's quite fast and responsive with a funny lock screen saying something about an Fruit Phone.' |
| 07:43.14 | cb22 | that was at OpenExpo |
| 07:45.22 | roh | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:49.24 | cb22 | roh: hehe, any idea when the next community update's going to come out? |
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| 08:08.12 | roh | cb22 dunno, though michael sent a small message out these days |
| 08:14.57 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 08:57.20 | cb22 | the NOR flash in freerunner is going to be _completely_ untouchable, unless you have a debug board, right? |
| 09:09.17 | xaid | cb22: thats the impression that i got from reading the kernel ML. i think someone mentioned its doable without a debug board if you know which pins to play with. |
| 09:09.47 | xaid | but i could be wrong, its 3:00 Am here so its possible my mind is playing tricks on me :) |
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| 09:25.25 | roh | cb22 either solder on smd-resistors or pull a line via debugboard |
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| 10:22.06 | cb22 | roh: cool :) so unless i play around with something phyiscal, its safe |
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| 10:45.40 | roh | cb22 jap. |
| 10:46.38 | roh | cb22: the idea is that when you are able to reflash a dead bootloader in nor, you should also be able to kill it. if not, you should only be able to kill the one in nand |
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| 11:25.52 | ccfly | hello :) |
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| 11:54.19 | PBeck | hallo |
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| 13:37.20 | CIA-17 | openmoko: 03werner * r4212 10/developers/werner/ahrt/host/tmc/ (README examples/usbtmc.py io.c python.c): (log message trimmed) |
| 13:37.20 | CIA-17 | openmoko: Completed the repeat command functionality for "start", and did some |
| 13:37.20 | CIA-17 | openmoko: general cleanup. |
| 13:37.20 | CIA-17 | openmoko: - README: sending several samples over USBTMC causes loss of per-sample timing |
| 13:37.21 | CIA-17 | openmoko: - README: we now have DCI, but it doesn't always work yet |
| 13:37.25 | CIA-17 | openmoko: - README: implemented re-issuing READ? |
| 13:37.27 | CIA-17 | openmoko: - README: documented the optional "command" argument of "start" |
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| 14:53.02 | [Phaedrus] | hello. |
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| 17:10.25 | *** join/#openmoko TRIsoft (i=Mac@p57A2E1D7.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:10.50 | TRIsoft | morning |
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| 17:15.37 | suma | where i can buy free runner in the US ? |
| 17:15.50 | suma | i tried to see online, could not get from google |
| 17:15.55 | suma | can someone please helpe |
| 17:16.09 | TRIsoft | suma: Within the next two weeks, preorder at openmoko.com |
| 17:16.30 | TRIsoft | Shipping expected end of April |
| 17:16.42 | CVirus | Preorders will be available ?? |
| 17:16.43 | suma | oh ok, i thought it is already available in the market |
| 17:17.01 | TRIsoft | suma: No, it's not, just about 70 prototypes yet |
| 17:17.07 | cb22 | TRIsoft: preorders? |
| 17:17.50 | TRIsoft | CVirus/cb22: We'll take preorders for the EU region within the next week, so OM itself will also start soon for the US and Asia region. |
| 17:18.07 | TRIsoft | Just a personal guess. If we can, why shouldn't they ? |
| 17:18.13 | CVirus | what about Africa ? |
| 17:18.33 | cb22 | CVirus: you in africa? |
| 17:18.36 | CVirus | Egypt |
| 17:18.47 | cb22 | ah :( not a fellow south african |
| 17:18.53 | CVirus | nah |
| 17:19.00 | TRIsoft | Africa should be covered by Openmoko.com |
| 17:19.09 | *** join/#openmoko _rob_ (n=rob@85.233.59.8.static.cablesurf.de) |
| 17:19.13 | TRIsoft | We just take care about the EU region |
| 17:19.18 | CVirus | we ? |
| 17:19.30 | cb22 | TRIsoft: you have a URL for your site? |
| 17:19.38 | cb22 | I assume you are a reseller? |
| 17:20.14 | TRIsoft | I hate ads within IRC. Our website is www.trisoft.de . But will change on Tuesday with some new content ;-) |
| 17:26.19 | TRIsoft | I guess, this monster will compile an OM build in less than 5 minutes. And still at 1 EUR... |
| 17:26.26 | TRIsoft | http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140213799721&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004 |
| 17:26.42 | buz | plus 600EUR shipping lol |
| 17:27.15 | TRIsoft | buz: And ? So what ? 48 CPUs, 48 GB Ram... |
| 17:27.29 | TRIsoft | buz: The rack without hardware is worth 3000 EUR |
| 17:27.44 | TRIsoft | I'm close to bid on this... |
| 17:27.50 | cb22 | reserve? |
| 17:28.51 | buz | so TRIsoft, at what price can we preorder |
| 17:29.10 | TRIsoft | Price within the EU will be 399 EUR incl. VAT and 2 year warranty |
| 17:29.39 | TRIsoft | You will end up with the same price at Openmoko.com |
| 17:29.57 | buz | with the current weak dollar maybe not |
| 17:30.11 | TRIsoft | Plus shipping and VAT, i guess ;-) |
| 17:30.17 | buz | besides i'm not subject to EU VAT |
| 17:30.33 | TRIsoft | And we all don't know what the EUR/$ rate will be in April |
| 17:30.53 | TRIsoft | OK, price for non-EU countries like Switzerland will be -19% VAT |
| 17:31.36 | TRIsoft | 335,29 EUR exactly :D |
| 17:31.54 | TRIsoft | cb22: You will wonder, how many Linux freaks are located there... |
| 17:32.28 | cb22 | hmm, i can afford that |
| 17:32.48 | cb22 | although im going to both italy and america in july, so choices are going to be interesting |
| 17:32.50 | buz | but the swiss customs will add our own 7.6% VAT |
| 17:33.08 | TRIsoft | but: OK, correct, forgot that :-( |
| 17:33.31 | edistar | cb22: where do you come from? |
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| 17:34.23 | buz | cb22: you really want to know someone in the us. OM.com international shipping costs are very easily beat. |
| 17:34.36 | thomasg | TRIsoft, really nice, can't wait to purchase :) so preordering will be possibile in your shop, too? |
| 17:35.01 | *** part/#openmoko ice- (n=mad@host-70-45-86-176.onelinkpr.net) |
| 17:35.02 | TRIsoft | thomasg: FreeRunner preorders will be taken outside the "normal" shop |
| 17:35.26 | thomasg | works for me |
| 17:35.26 | TRIsoft | Actually redesigning the whole website for it. It was a good reason to do it :D |
| 17:36.04 | buz | actually, maybe someone from om should rebuke that no neo until summer thread the |
| 17:36.05 | buz | n |
| 17:36.14 | TRIsoft | And if our (company)-server hadn't decided to crash on thursday, preorders would be up and running... |
| 17:37.00 | thomasg | I guess it will also be possible to get accessoires (stylus, battery and so on), won't it? |
| 17:37.39 | TRIsoft | The battery is fully compatible to the widely used Nokia one. But we'll see to add accessories soon. |
| 17:38.15 | TRIsoft | Last weeks were pretty busy preparing the FreeRunner itself for sale |
| 17:39.10 | thomasg | yeah, I own gta01, and I know thet the nokia bp5 is compatible, and HOW it is compatible :) |
| 17:39.45 | KentControl | TRIsoft: so its gonna be out very soon? |
| 17:39.52 | J-23 | buz: In Poland we have 22% VAT. |
| 17:39.54 | TRIsoft | It definitely is. Robert owns a Nokia phone and we swapped batteries between both. Even a cheap bought 3rd party one. |
| 17:40.13 | TRIsoft | KentControl: We expect shipping late April |
| 17:40.28 | TRIsoft | J-23: Don't care. 399 EUR will be also your price. |
| 17:40.30 | KentControl | nice, for which country is that? |
| 17:40.43 | KentControl | or globally? |
| 17:41.04 | TRIsoft | They will be shipped globally at end of April until something really weird happens... |
| 17:41.25 | KentControl | superb :> |
| 17:42.19 | TRIsoft | Most interesting thing for OM and us is to get some numbers (preorders) soon. |
| 17:42.52 | edistar | TRIsoft: what options are there to pay? |
| 17:43.21 | TRIsoft | edistar: What do you mean with "options" ?? |
| 17:43.56 | XorA|gone | TRIsoft: did that nokia battery charge in the Neo? |
| 17:43.57 | edistar | TRIsoft: creditcard, 'nachname', etc |
| 17:44.14 | TRIsoft | XorA|gone: Yep, they're fully compatible |
| 17:44.46 | XorA|gone | TRIsoft: awesome, I was told they wouldnt charge, I never bothered to try myself having a pile of spare gta01/gta02's on my desk |
| 17:44.58 | TRIsoft | edistar: Preorders are creditcard only. Only exception for universities and government orders. |
| 17:45.26 | edistar | TRIsoft: ok :) |
| 17:45.31 | TRIsoft | XorA|gone: We charged batteries from the Nokia with the FreeRunner and vice-versa |
| 17:46.00 | XorA|gone | TRIsoft: thats good to know |
| 17:46.08 | KentControl | whats your experience with the freerunners standby time? did they improve from gta01? |
| 17:46.23 | KentControl | it* |
| 17:46.40 | XorA|gone | KentControl: first impressions it seems to last a lot longer, it also lasts if you turn it off with battery in it |
| 17:46.42 | thomasg | TRIsoft, btw. - we have an german irc channel that I originally opened to organize group orders for gta01. maybe you might join, as there are many future customers :) #neo1973-germany |
| 17:46.43 | TRIsoft | KentControl: Unfortunately we don't have a GTA01 :-( |
| 17:47.02 | XorA|gone | KentControl: but I didnt do proper tests |
| 17:47.16 | cb22 | edistar: i'm from south africa, buz: probably, i've got an uncle there in ny :) |
| 17:47.27 | TRIsoft | thomasg: OK, will try to do that. But we'll make an official info next week (OK, that's the plan) |
| 17:47.34 | KentControl | thanks |
| 17:48.54 | cb22 | TRIsoft, do you actually have a freerunner sample? |
| 17:49.13 | TRIsoft | cb22: Yes. And it's not bricked yet :-) |
| 17:49.19 | cb22 | zomg hacks :D |
| 17:49.23 | SpeedEvil | Takes real skill to brick it. |
| 17:49.43 | TRIsoft | SpeedEvil: We noticed. We tried our best, but the beast still boots :D |
| 17:50.12 | cb22 | just thinking of all the cool stuff you could do... |
| 17:50.13 | SpeedEvil | trivex`: is that 399 inc shipping? |
| 17:50.16 | SpeedEvil | tris |
| 17:50.17 | SpeedEvil | : |
| 17:50.19 | TRIsoft | I just have problems with dfu-util. Impossible to flash it, but this may be the PC... |
| 17:50.35 | XorA|gone | TRIsoft: dont use a hub |
| 17:50.35 | edistar | SpeedEvil: yes it is |
| 17:50.44 | TRIsoft | SpeedEvil: Nope, it's plus shipping. Depends on the country. Germany is 5 EUR and so on... |
| 17:50.53 | edistar | SpeedEvil: oh, sry |
| 17:51.22 | TRIsoft | XorA|gone: It's directly connected. SSH works fine, all is OK, but dfu-util is a mess... |
| 17:52.42 | XorA|gone | TRIsoft: did you file a bug? would be good to fix any problems like that before GTA02 launches :-) |
| 17:53.21 | TRIsoft | XorA|gone: I think, it's the crappy machine we set up for it. Will look at the problem tomorrow (yes, i will be in the company on sunday ;-) ) |
| 17:53.47 | SpeedEvil | The US price from OM will be $450? |
| 17:53.53 | SpeedEvil | (excl shipping?) |
| 17:54.02 | XorA|gone | TRIsoft: goodo, would be good to know what happens on crappy machines, I can see people with 200$ WaMart pc's that dont obey spec complaining in future |
| 17:54.03 | TRIsoft | SpeedEvil: I think so |
| 17:54.50 | TRIsoft | XorA|gone: We had an old Fujitsu-Siemens, 450 MHz-PII, 512 MB RAM. It was dusting and we thought, OK, nice unit for OM testing... |
| 17:55.02 | TRIsoft | XorA|gone: It's really bad hardware... |
| 17:55.19 | XorA|gone | oh yeah, Ive had to deal with fujistu siemens machines before |
| 17:56.04 | TRIsoft | XorA|gone: For testing purposes we just like a dedicated machine for a product. And we found this in our backyard :D |
| 17:56.55 | SpeedEvil | IMO, $450 is too high a price point for the release hardware. |
| 17:57.40 | Kensan | Hi there, are there known build issues for gcc-cross-4.1.2-r14? Message is: "arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi-as: unrecognized option `-Qy'" |
| 17:57.55 | TRIsoft | SpeedEvil: Don't forget what you'll get for the money. And with flashing the "finished" software, you'll have the enduser device in your hands. It's not like the GTA01... |
| 17:57.55 | SpeedEvil | For end-users that are comparing it with other phones. |
| 17:58.29 | edistar | SpeedEvil: but in the end you get a minipc, not a phone |
| 17:58.57 | TRIsoft | SpeedEvil: End-users will get the phone for 1 EUR with a nice contract... |
| 17:59.00 | SpeedEvil | edistar: If we get only users that want a minipc, we have failed. |
| 17:59.01 | XorA|gone | Kensan: all known build issues are in bugs.openembedded.org |
| 17:59.01 | KentControl | and youre unbound, not like iPhone, which ties you to one provider for years |
| 17:59.16 | SpeedEvil | IMO |
| 17:59.29 | Kensan | XorA, ok thanks. was looking in the openmoko-bugzilla. |
| 17:59.59 | SpeedEvil | Kensan: I was talking of comparable - on basic feature lists hardware. 'camera = no, bluetooth=yes' |
| 18:00.02 | SpeedEvil | kent: |
| 18:00.05 | edistar | SpeedEvil: well.. the OM phones don't aim to compete with <30$ phones, do they? so they compete with smartphones.. and what is the ultimate smartphone? the one with the most features.. at least for end-users |
| 18:00.30 | edistar | SpeedEvil: that top phone by nokia costs 650 euro atm, at least that's what I saw in a show windows a few days ago |
| 18:00.53 | edistar | s/that/the |
| 18:01.25 | KentControl | plus software for those phones usually muszt be paid for or is simply unavailable |
| 18:01.52 | SpeedEvil | I am not arguing that the user that spends a lot of thought and uses linux may be attracted to the phone. |
| 18:01.53 | TRIsoft | edistar/SpeedEvil: People are going to spend tons of money for a crappy iPhone. With functional and polished-userfriendly software, the FreeRunner will set new standards... |
| 18:01.55 | KentControl | youre also buying the freedom of full upgradability and best software support |
| 18:01.58 | SpeedEvil | I am not arguing that the user that spends a lot of thought and uses linux may not be attracted to the phone. |
| 18:02.24 | KentControl | and i think thats where its intended to hit |
| 18:02.28 | SpeedEvil | I'm arguing that at that price point, the user that picks on the shiny list of features on the box won't. |
| 18:02.50 | SpeedEvil | And there are a hell of a lot more of the second. |
| 18:03.15 | TRIsoft | SpeedEvil: And (let's drop the camera) what phone has more ? |
| 18:03.18 | edistar | true, but with the gta hw the price can't be much lower, can it? |
| 18:03.51 | TRIsoft | SpeedEvil: Don't forget that you can't access any big company with a phone with included camera. So the FreeRunner is a "business device" ;-) |
| 18:03.52 | KentControl | also consider the touchscreen interface, few phones have comparable interfaces |
| 18:04.19 | SpeedEvil | KentControl: well - that's true - though not always in a good way :) |
| 18:04.32 | edistar | TRIsoft: how does the touchscreen respond? |
| 18:04.42 | SpeedEvil | TRIsoft: but to hit that segment in a big way, you need office/... integration |
| 18:05.02 | edistar | SpeedEvil: that's why it's not released as enduser yet |
| 18:05.37 | KentControl | integration is a matter of software and i dare predicting will be available very soon once the devices are out |
| 18:05.39 | TRIsoft | edistar: Let's just say, i'm impressed with the FreeRunner. Without the sometime needed GSM-restarts, i would use it as my personal phone. |
| 18:06.08 | SpeedEvil | KentControl: the devices have been out for a substantial fraction of a year. |
| 18:06.12 | edistar | TRIsoft: cool, even with this rubbishy gtk UI? |
| 18:06.14 | TRIsoft | SpeedEvil: If you like it, or not. But it will be a success if we can place it at a provider, nicely branded. |
| 18:06.18 | J-23 | hmm. |
| 18:06.21 | emdete | TRIsoft: what do you mean with gps restarts? |
| 18:06.23 | SpeedEvil | trivex`: Oh I agree. |
| 18:06.27 | SpeedEvil | emdete: GSM |
| 18:06.32 | SpeedEvil | triso: |
| 18:06.46 | KentControl | SpeedEvil: the dev devices, yeah. linux devs usually arent interested in integrating with outlook or whatever |
| 18:07.01 | edistar | TRIsoft: just have to watch out that the provider doesn't restrict the freedom |
| 18:07.06 | emdete | ah, okay, gsm restarts of the daemon or the modem, TRIsoft ? |
| 18:07.23 | TRIsoft | emdete: The FreeRunner drops sometimes the connection after you called or received a call. |
| 18:07.28 | SpeedEvil | edistar: I'm quite happy with restricted freedom for a subsidy. For example, a network lockin. |
| 18:07.39 | roh | SpeedEvil whatfor? |
| 18:07.46 | emdete | TRIsoft: who, the modem? or the libgsmd? |
| 18:07.49 | edistar | oh, I am definitely not:) thats the point of OM |
| 18:07.57 | roh | SpeedEvil in germany you usually can deal the subsidary out of the dealer easily |
| 18:08.04 | TRIsoft | edistar: Forget the freedom. Forget our point of view. The average enduser doesn't care about all of this. |
| 18:08.07 | SpeedEvil | roh: Not in the UK |
| 18:08.19 | SpeedEvil | roh: you can't get the subsidy unless you buy a supported phone |
| 18:08.35 | TRIsoft | edistar: You need to sell phones to get successful. And this is only possible with a provider. Even if you have to paint the cover pink for T-Mobile... |
| 18:08.36 | roh | means you make some contract, get the sim and select some unlocked unbranded phone in the same store and the dealer just wants what the phone is more. |
| 18:08.48 | SpeedEvil | roh: and phone-less contracts are often very bad value compared to the subsidised phones. |
| 18:08.58 | emdete | TRIsoft: i dont think a provide in germany would sell the neo |
| 18:09.01 | roh | the most of them do not want to do a payout so you usually can use quite high-pricy models for only a few bucks |
| 18:09.28 | TRIsoft | emdete: Let's wait and see... |
| 18:09.31 | SpeedEvil | roh: not in the UK - at least I've had blank looks when I've asked. |
| 18:09.33 | emdete | TRIsoft: can you explain your ' drops sometimes the connection'? |
| 18:09.38 | *** join/#openmoko raster (n=raster@189.44.51.122) |
| 18:10.01 | roh | SpeedEvil well.. too many customers eating the shit without asking i would guess |
| 18:10.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1272 has been created by thomas(AT)openedhand.com |
| 18:10.01 | cdbot2 | * * SMS button does not do anything |
| 18:10.02 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1272 |
| 18:11.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1273 has been created by thomas(AT)openedhand.com |
| 18:11.02 | cdbot2 | * * Dialer does not switch to missed call screen if already open |
| 18:11.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1273 |
| 18:11.14 | TRIsoft | emdete: We're going to test the phone under "daily use" the next days. If we find bugs, we'll add it to the bugtracker. I just noticed it a few times, but i can't give you a "do this, happens that" list... |
| 18:11.52 | emdete | TRIsoft: i am the author of pygsmd thats the cause for my questions |
| 18:12.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1274 has been created by thomas(AT)openedhand.com |
| 18:12.02 | cdbot2 | * * Loudspeaker not working after connection established |
| 18:12.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1274 |
| 18:12.06 | CM | ~lart pth_2.0.2.bb for never compiling |
| 18:12.06 | apt | rm -rf's pth_2.0.2.bb for never compiling |
| 18:12.50 | TRIsoft | emdete: OK, i will let you know after i flashed the actual image and notice anything weird... |
| 18:13.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1275 has been created by thomas(AT)openedhand.com |
| 18:13.01 | cdbot2 | * * Message filter does not work |
| 18:13.02 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1275 |
| 18:14.04 | emdete | TRIsoft: fine. thnks. do you want my email address? |
| 18:14.10 | SpeedEvil | For example - http://www.ebuyer.com/product/128876 - 3G smartphone with same ROM and RAM and slightly smaller screen - for on the order of half the price |
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| 18:15.57 | edistar | no gps |
| 18:15.57 | TRIsoft | SpeedEvil: Sorry, but 64 MB Ram, QVGA display, no GPS... |
| 18:16.00 | emdete | i think the neo has to be sold for 200EUR or less... |
| 18:16.02 | roh | SpeedEvil only half the ram and half the screen with a quarter of the resolution... |
| 18:16.45 | emdete | ...to get successful in regards of quantities |
| 18:16.47 | TRIsoft | emdete: We actually sell a PDA with no GMS/GPS/WiFi for 395 EUR... |
| 18:17.10 | emdete | how many? |
| 18:17.26 | roh | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:17.29 | TRIsoft | emdete: Let's say, even one customer runs 1000+ units ;-) |
| 18:17.48 | TRIsoft | emdete: But that's not the point. Phones are sold with contracts. |
| 18:17.58 | emdete | i think fic won't be happy with 1000 |
| 18:18.09 | buz | 249EUR would be an attractive price point for neo |
| 18:18.22 | emdete | TRIsoft: as i said, i don't think any german opco will sell the neo |
| 18:18.34 | edistar | TRIsoft: yeah, if you want to distribute massively you need to forget freedom and let the providers do whatever they want.. as long as devs can regain freedom again:) |
| 18:18.36 | buz | 399 is too much for anyone but die hard FOSS people |
| 18:18.46 | TRIsoft | emdete: As i said, wait and see... |
| 18:18.57 | emdete | TRIsoft: i will do ;) |
| 18:19.07 | buz | (i would guess most users could not care less for VGA anyway) |
| 18:19.19 | edistar | buz: true again |
| 18:19.34 | edistar | buz: but touchscreen is quite nice, even for non-tech people |
| 18:19.35 | buz | realistically, not even a dpi freak like myself needs 285dpi |
| 18:19.39 | TRIsoft | edistar: That's the point. Let them brand what they want as long as they purchase. An interested user may reflash it within a few seconds. |
| 18:19.46 | buz | yes but there's the htc touch |
| 18:19.58 | roh | buz only the user who never have tried to browse the web while on the road |
| 18:20.09 | edistar | buz: yeah :( with wm though ;) |
| 18:20.13 | buz | how many people actually do that |
| 18:20.20 | buz | i know i dont |
| 18:20.25 | roh | its not the dpi. its what amount of web you can display... even with vga its hard |
| 18:20.34 | buz | i know that |
| 18:20.39 | buz | 99% of the people out there dont |
| 18:20.46 | edistar | roh: the iphone is doing it quite well.. |
| 18:20.51 | roh | i know people who listen to icecast radio streaming in 128kbit via on the road... |
| 18:21.08 | roh | edistar the have also twice as much pixels as qvga |
| 18:21.14 | roh | and half the size of vga |
| 18:21.15 | buz | four times |
| 18:21.23 | buz | oh the iphone, yes |
| 18:21.30 | roh | its 480x320 there afaik |
| 18:21.34 | edistar | ok |
| 18:21.40 | roh | weird but neat choise i must say... |
| 18:21.46 | buz | people listening to streaming radio must have nice edge deals :P |
| 18:22.04 | roh | buz 3g flatrate |
| 18:22.08 | edistar | roh: I suppose it was cheap and it doesn't use as much cpu/gpu power as VGA |
| 18:22.23 | roh | costs between 25 and 40 euros, depending on carrier per month |
| 18:22.35 | buz | still no real flat rates here |
| 18:22.45 | roh | aslong as you stay below, say 30-50gbyte/month there is no trouble |
| 18:22.51 | buz | only 2gb flatrates |
| 18:23.02 | TRIsoft | buz: Where is "here" ? |
| 18:23.06 | buz | switzerland |
| 18:23.06 | roh | thzats not flat. thats prepaid commitment |
| 18:23.12 | buz | yeah |
| 18:23.15 | buz | still they call it flatrate |
| 18:23.19 | buz | should be slapped for it |
| 18:23.40 | buz | there's true flatrate for 2EUR a day |
| 18:23.44 | roh | no verbraucherzentrale kicking their asses due to advertising fraud? or dont you have such a law there? |
| 18:23.47 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@dsbg-4db7d0bc.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 18:24.09 | buz | i think the body in question is too dumb to realize it |
| 18:24.19 | buz | and swisscom is still majority owned by the state |
| 18:24.30 | buz | incentive to beat them for it is relatively low :P |
| 18:24.31 | roh | ah.. that problem |
| 18:24.52 | Stephmw | buz: just come back from Geneva |
| 18:24.53 | roh | we really need to root out theese monopolist carriers once and for all at some point *sigh* |
| 18:25.07 | Stephmw | buz: crazy roaming charges just for crossing the border |
| 18:25.12 | buz | yes |
| 18:25.25 | buz | i generally grab a cheap prepaid card at the airport :P |
| 18:25.26 | roh | just had 6 weeks delay in my dsl line ordering since tcom decided to delay all their opponents orders by a fix amount |
| 18:25.53 | SpeedEvil | Also - there is a _much_ larger fraction of people willing to buy a somewhat functional phone - if it will be later upgraded. |
| 18:26.01 | buz | well we have some limited competition for last mile coming from the cable companies at least |
| 18:26.02 | SpeedEvil | Look at gTA01 orders from non-coders |
| 18:26.11 | *** join/#openmoko SP8472 (i=8472@dslb-084-056-228-214.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 18:26.23 | buz | yeah and look how good that worked out :P |
| 18:26.41 | buz | fool me once [...] |
| 18:26.53 | roh | i wouldnt say that too many non coders bought it. |
| 18:26.53 | SpeedEvil | That's true, unfortunately. |
| 18:26.59 | edistar | I just hope it will work out the way OM wants it to and that they will continue to produce hw! |
| 18:27.41 | buz | yeah gimme a VGA tytn II :P |
| 18:27.51 | TRIsoft | edistar: But this will need massive sales. Including branded units and all the stuff the community hates. But you need to jump over your shadow to make something successful. |
| 18:28.11 | *** join/#openmoko Babear (n=mp@cs181036155.pp.htv.fi) |
| 18:28.34 | buz | i have no problem with branded hardware |
| 18:28.42 | buz | branded software is were my gripe starts |
| 18:29.14 | SpeedEvil | At the freerunner price-point, you're going to compete in the public mind of mass-market with http://www.ebuyer.com/product/140008 forex |
| 18:29.28 | edistar | TRIsoft: sacrifices need to be made ;) |
| 18:29.44 | buz | actually you're competing with the iphone |
| 18:29.51 | TRIsoft | edistar: Good point |
| 18:30.03 | TRIsoft | SpeedEvil: And ? What's the problem ? |
| 18:30.13 | buz | samsung phones are crap, honestly |
| 18:30.48 | SpeedEvil | I don't know anymore. |
| 18:31.00 | edistar | does anyone know that lg prada? I tried that a few days ago and the menus were completely useless.. screen was nice, but the software wasn't at all.. it won't be any problem for OM to compete there |
| 18:32.12 | nezza | hehe btw competition: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Nezza#Stuff |
| 18:33.19 | edistar | nezza: nice one :D |
| 18:33.36 | nezza | mhh what do you think about the interface? |
| 18:33.52 | nezza | its gesture based, so you touch once, drag where you want to go and then release |
| 18:34.48 | SpeedEvil | Kernel86: and the neo does have a ethernet interface, it's just got an odd PHY |
| 18:34.53 | SpeedEvil | nez: |
| 18:35.04 | buz | edistar: it is my feeling that the korean and chinese phones are based on totally useless software |
| 18:35.06 | nezza | based on which icon you touch, context icons will be showed and you can move your finger towards them |
| 18:35.14 | nezza | SpeedEvil: ? |
| 18:35.18 | nezza | edistar: thanks |
| 18:35.31 | buz | nezza: it's called usb:P |
| 18:35.46 | TRIsoft | nezza: Screenshot dummies look sweet ! |
| 18:36.00 | edistar | buz: yeah, the software is only as good as it needs to be, and without much competition.. |
| 18:36.14 | nezza | buz: what do you mean? |
| 18:36.31 | buz | i was referring to [19:34] <SpeedEvil> Kernel86: and the neo does have a ethernet interface, it's just got an odd PHY |
| 18:37.06 | nezza | TRIsoft: yeah.. but actually its based on SDL so its slow on the openmoko. im working on porting it to edje |
| 18:37.21 | edistar | nezza: explain, how _exactly_ do you choose one menu point? |
| 18:37.41 | *** join/#openmoko mmp (n=mmp@158.195.169.39) |
| 18:37.52 | TRIsoft | BTW: Is anybody working on the motion sensors for screen-rotation ? |
| 18:38.51 | nezza | edistar: you touch on the icon and around the icon, subicons are showed which are related to the icon you touched. than you just move your finger towards them. (you dont "hack" on the touchscreen, you just push, move your finger and release.) |
| 18:40.10 | edistar | nezza: nice idea |
| 18:40.36 | nezza | thanks... ive got a lot of ideas to add, screenshots will follow tomorrow. |
| 18:40.39 | *** join/#openmoko wind-rider (n=hansmbak@ip5657905b.direct-adsl.nl) |
| 18:40.43 | edistar | :) |
| 18:42.20 | TRIsoft | nezza: Eagerly waiting... |
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| 18:45.23 | raster | nezza: be careful. the touchscreen is quite error-happy if u drag your finger around |
| 18:45.31 | raster | it is just "inaccurate" |
| 18:45.53 | raster | and will do thngs like have your touch be pressed and released a lot unless u rpess hard |
| 18:47.36 | nezza | raster: but if you add some error correction (like a "release and touch" time > 50ms or something like that) it should work |
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| 18:49.10 | raster | nezza: yeah. you just need to be aware of it |
| 18:49.29 | raster | though i am wary of working around that in event handling in apps/toolkits |
| 18:49.52 | nezza | okay, thanks :) |
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| 18:59.14 | cb22 | raster: illume looks ultra cool :) |
| 18:59.56 | nezza | absolutly |
| 19:00.24 | cb22 | just wondering, the deom you showed off on a neo, was it 01 or freerunner? |
| 19:00.28 | cb22 | demo* |
| 19:00.53 | KentControl | can i have an url? |
| 19:00.59 | *** join/#openmoko gopi (n=gopi@63.83.135.35) |
| 19:01.00 | raster | cb22: freerunner |
| 19:02.00 | *** join/#openmoko josch (n=josch@p57AD572D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:02.17 | raster | cb22: freerunner has a bit of a major problem gfx-bus wise |
| 19:03.27 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@cpc1-acto9-0-0-cust931.brnt.cable.ntl.com) |
| 19:05.43 | cb22 | KentControl: check out illume.projects.openmoko.org/ |
| 19:07.10 | cb22 | raster: yeah i heard, (from people who heard from you :), is it quite a show stopper? |
| 19:07.42 | raster | its not stopping the show |
| 19:07.44 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (n=fredsiba@nrbg-4dbfb10f.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 19:07.48 | raster | it just needs to be worked around |
| 19:07.48 | raster | :) |
| 19:08.20 | Kensan | raster: what's the issue? Busspeed? |
| 19:08.58 | cb22 | ah yes, (a/u)pon closer inspection of the video, i see the case is all black |
| 19:09.26 | TRIsoft | cb22: Yes, FreeRunner ist avail in every color as long as it's black |
| 19:09.47 | raster | Kensan: yup. |
| 19:09.59 | cb22 | TRIsoft: hehe, imho all black looks much better then the other colours |
| 19:10.10 | raster | Kensan: upload of pixels to video memory is just slow. maxes out at about 7.3mb/sec |
| 19:10.21 | Kensan | raster: any links/pointers I could read up on? |
| 19:10.25 | raster | and the cpu is tied down to copying the data too |
| 19:10.26 | Kensan | raster: oh ic. |
| 19:10.30 | edistar | raster: will the application launcher stay the way it is in the video? |
| 19:10.40 | raster | dma experiment was a failure |
| 19:10.51 | emdete | raster: :( |
| 19:11.03 | raster | edistar: likely not. will need to make it just redraw less |
| 19:11.20 | *** join/#openmoko geaaru (n=geaaru@79.16.218.116) |
| 19:11.26 | Kensan | raster: what's the workaround/solution you are aiming for? |
| 19:11.59 | raster | Kensan: for now, simply redrawing less |
| 19:12.09 | thomasg | raster, so is glamo good for anything at all? |
| 19:12.11 | Kensan | raster: ic. |
| 19:12.13 | raster | dont redraw full-screen - only update small screen sections at a time |
| 19:12.30 | raster | thomasg: right now not very much :) |
| 19:12.37 | thomasg | will it ever be? |
| 19:12.38 | Kensan | TRIsoft: mickey had a orange/black freerunner with him at the Openexpo ;) |
| 19:12.48 | raster | thomasg: theonly accel we have is solid fills and blits. even that comes with bugs :( |
| 19:13.00 | thomasg | the current problems sound to me like it's worse then w/o acceleration chip at all |
| 19:13.10 | raster | thomasg: we can accel some of xrender (so we can probably get aa text fast and some xrender paths ok) |
| 19:13.23 | raster | and opengl is possible - but w3ith hefty limits |
| 19:13.24 | emdete | raster: is someone working on that? |
| 19:13.35 | *** join/#openmoko suuuper (n=suuuper@ppp-74-182.32-151.iol.it) |
| 19:13.44 | raster | cant do fullscreen (640x480 opengl - 511x511 is the limit) |
| 19:13.50 | raster | max trexture size of 256x256 |
| 19:13.56 | nezza | Kensan: the orange+black was an gta01 ;) |
| 19:14.06 | cb22 | could it play tuxracer at 320x240 :)? |
| 19:14.16 | Kensan | nezza: oh, my bad. Thought it was the freerunner. |
| 19:14.18 | nezza | Kensan: i was there, too (the guy who sits right to mickey |
| 19:14.20 | raster | whihc frankly makes ogl pretty arsetastic for anything decent 2d-wise wherew pixel sources are regularly much bigger than that |
| 19:14.27 | nezza | Kensan: aeehhh left |
| 19:14.33 | raster | no render-to-texture (fbo's) so can't compose intermediate results |
| 19:14.35 | *** join/#openmoko idarwin (n=ian@69-17-146-104.kingkom.com) |
| 19:14.44 | raster | otherwise ogl is ok |
| 19:14.50 | raster | tho fillrate isnt amazing |
| 19:14.58 | Kensan | neeza, I was not there for long unfortunately so I did not get around to memorize the seating order *heh* |
| 19:15.04 | emdete | raster: is someone working on that? |
| 19:15.27 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=khmhm@4d6f5419.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 19:15.34 | raster | thomasg: as for is it worse? yes. its' worse than a gta01 if u upload pixels a lot |
| 19:15.48 | raster | i.e - u are not able to accel your rendering and have to doit in software |
| 19:15.49 | Kensan | neeza: were you wearing the black openmoko hoody? |
| 19:16.00 | thomasg | raster, sounds terrible :( |
| 19:16.13 | raster | even with partial accel u will still hit snags unless u carefulyl design your ui to avoid the non-accelrated ops/paths |
| 19:16.22 | raster | and those arent done yet |
| 19:16.27 | *** join/#openmoko styleism (n=sfgfadga@87-194-104-214.bethere.co.uk) |
| 19:16.32 | raster | emdete: working on whihc bit in particular? |
| 19:16.57 | emdete | raster: on a solution as you describe it: partialy accel for the gui |
| 19:16.59 | cb22 | hmm, can it at least do video decoding? |
| 19:17.00 | *** join/#openmoko jeddy3 (n=mattiast@81-237-230-160-no83.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 19:17.12 | nezza | Kensan: no ;) at wednesday i was wearing a black pulloverjacke and at thursday i was wearing an openmoko t-shirt |
| 19:17.14 | raster | thomasg: well in the end i think that we will basically see about the same perf on the gta02 and the gta01 |
| 19:17.31 | raster | except for the ability to do some ogl (likely needing to go down to qvga res for ogl 3d) |
| 19:17.57 | raster | emdete: well i can tweak the xrender engine of evas to avoid the worst paths |
| 19:18.10 | Kensan | neeza: ok, just found a picture on the site. |
| 19:18.13 | raster | emdete: and i will need to probably add a tile cache |
| 19:18.23 | emdete | raster: will you do so soon? |
| 19:18.37 | thomasg | raster, why didn't the hardware engineers realize that the glamo is pretty useless (and worse)? |
| 19:18.41 | raster | not until there is actual acceleration for what the chip can technically do |
| 19:18.45 | Kensan | neeza: I was only there on thursday. first two presentations (Alan Cox+Mickey). |
| 19:19.05 | *** join/#openmoko n0on3 (n=n0on3@81-208-83-247.fastres.net) |
| 19:19.07 | raster | thomasg: because it was decided on and put in withoutany graphics experts. |
| 19:19.26 | raster | thomasg: also it was the only choice for an "offboard" graphics chip that would allow for open drivers |
| 19:19.37 | thomasg | what a pitty :( |
| 19:19.46 | wind-rider | raster: is the chip technically capable of doing full resolution opengl acceleration? |
| 19:19.58 | edistar | wind-rider: no |
| 19:20.10 | raster | wind-rider: no. 511x511 is its max res |
| 19:20.23 | wind-rider | hm, isn't that strange? |
| 19:20.42 | edistar | wind-rider: why? |
| 19:20.53 | raster | no |
| 19:21.00 | raster | the chip was designed for qvga |
| 19:21.04 | raster | it CAN do vga |
| 19:21.06 | cb22 | i remember hearing it was just a 320x240 chip that could magically 640x480 |
| 19:21.13 | raster | thats only because the lcd controller CAN do it |
| 19:21.20 | raster | it wsas designed FOR qvga resolutions |
| 19:21.23 | nezza | Kensan: picture? link? |
| 19:21.37 | wind-rider | raster, edistar: because there is a much higher resolution screen in it |
| 19:21.42 | cb22 | :( someone should put a 8800gt in the freruner |
| 19:21.42 | raster | also its a relatively old chip design |
| 19:22.02 | raster | but given a hard place and a rock it probably was the only choice other than no accel. |
| 19:22.25 | raster | cb22: there go open drivers:) |
| 19:22.26 | wind-rider | hm, i don't know the alternatives indeed, so i won't make objections |
| 19:22.44 | Kensan | nezza: http://www.openexpo.ch/typo3temp/pics/9bdfead8db.jpg |
| 19:23.00 | wind-rider | raster: but i still find the idea of opengl apps limited to a window of 511 x 511 a bit strange |
| 19:23.15 | cb22 | raster: heh, suppose so. can it do decent video decoding at least? |
| 19:23.18 | raster | wind-rider: there really are not many :( |
| 19:23.34 | raster | there are very few phone-level embedded gfx chips around |
| 19:23.42 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@p54BE9E2E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:23.47 | raster | and openness is nota popular thing |
| 19:23.48 | raster | :) |
| 19:24.08 | raster | wind-rider: thats a limitation of the chip. |
| 19:24.18 | edistar | wind-rider: if it's the only choice and people who decided weren't experts.. |
| 19:24.20 | raster | wind-rider: i didn't design it - thats just how it comes. :) |
| 19:24.33 | raster | we needed an extra sdio line for wifi |
| 19:24.43 | raster | so sd is handled on the glamo gfx chip actually |
| 19:25.01 | raster | and the original sdcard adio line was repurposed to hook wifi up to |
| 19:25.12 | raster | so wifi kind of forced a move to be made |
| 19:25.24 | raster | as such we may have done better just with a dumb fb like the gta01 |
| 19:25.56 | *** join/#openmoko norro_ (n=norro@e182032072.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 19:26.28 | edistar | raster: why don't you work on the driver for the glamo? |
| 19:26.31 | wind-rider | hm, at least it's good to know |
| 19:26.46 | wind-rider | edistar: i guess he is very busy on other things like illume |
| 19:27.12 | raster | edistar: i only have so many hours in a day |
| 19:27.17 | SpeedEvil | And productivity staring at one thing can be lower. |
| 19:27.29 | raster | edistar: and others had already started the glamo drivers before i joined |
| 19:27.34 | raster | no point breaking the flow |
| 19:27.36 | edistar | ok |
| 19:27.54 | raster | also it'snot my primary expertise area |
| 19:28.02 | raster | i know how they should work |
| 19:28.15 | raster | but i have other ends of the pipeline to focus on |
| 19:28.38 | nezza | so here is an additional screenshot: http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/b/bd/Submenumusic.png |
| 19:28.42 | cb22 | raster: btw, can i just compile illume on a normal system with e17 installed? |
| 19:28.53 | raster | cb22: yup |
| 19:28.58 | edistar | raster: doesn't work here |
| 19:29.09 | edistar | raster: compiling on my notebook, I get qtopia errors |
| 19:29.18 | *** join/#openmoko nicfer (n=chatzill@168.226.105.38) |
| 19:29.24 | wind-rider | i must go |
| 19:29.26 | wind-rider | bye! |
| 19:29.28 | raster | edistar: your e isnt up to date |
| 19:29.29 | raster | :) |
| 19:29.56 | nicfer | hi |
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| 19:37.17 | edistar | raster: yeah, 2 days old |
| 19:37.29 | edistar | raster: but I got qtopia errors a week ago too |
| 19:40.13 | Kensan | nezza: what were you hacking on at Openexpo? btw, do you know the guys from Puzzle? |
| 19:40.21 | raster | ummmmm the stuff in in head cvs for e17 |
| 19:40.21 | raster | so u must have an older checkout/build/install |
| 19:40.21 | raster | gotta run |
| 19:41.26 | nezza | Kensan: on the openexpo i was hacking on the interface ;) |
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| 19:42.51 | Kensan | nezza: ic. do you know other moko people in CH? I am not aware of any kind of "user group" thing... |
| 19:43.19 | *** join/#openmoko haakeyar (n=haakeyar@c9C364BC1.dhcp.bluecom.no) |
| 19:44.16 | edistar | Kensan: #neo1973-germany, there are also CH people |
| 19:44.34 | nezza | Kensan: im living in switzerland for ~3 weeks ;) |
| 19:44.48 | nezza | Kensan: since the openexpo i know C7 ;) |
| 19:45.45 | Kensan | edistar: ok, time to join another channel then ;) |
| 19:45.59 | Kensan | nezza: ah ic. |
| 19:46.35 | nezza | Kensan: where are you living in switzerland? |
| 19:47.15 | Kensan | nezza: Solothurn. |
| 19:48.58 | nezza | Kensan: ah :) i'm from lucern |
| 19:48.59 | nezza | e |
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| 19:50.17 | Kensan | nezza: join the #neo1973-germany channel. less people to distract with the swiss talk ;) |
| 19:51.48 | nezza | Kensan: done |
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| 20:16.32 | skamster | hello everyone.. i've a little problem with the neo 1973.. it doesn't create a /dev/usb0.. |
| 20:17.05 | skamster | if someone has some time to help, i'm lucky :) |
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| 20:25.49 | nezza | skamster: nopaste the dmesg please ;) |
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| 20:30.43 | skamster | dsmeg what? where and how you mean? (on the phone, on the host? which file? sorry, i'm a absolut beginner on openmoko and embedded-systems..) |
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| 20:31.16 | josch | skamster, on the host |
| 20:31.35 | josch | we want to see what your kernel sais when you plug in the neo |
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| 20:35.22 | skamster | http://nopaste.org/p/aDqbquKxeb |
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| 20:36.25 | CM | skamster: I have the same problem, started a few weeks ago. |
| 20:36.47 | CM | I haven't had time to look into it though |
| 20:37.19 | nezza | skamster: boot up the phone, wait until everything is up, than plug in USB and nopaste the dmesg of the phone |
| 20:37.48 | skamster | oke.. |
| 20:38.22 | skamster | mh, 'im using gentoo, maybe i loadet the false modules |
| 20:39.38 | skamster | nezza: stupid question, but how i make a dmesg just of the phone? |
| 20:39.56 | CM | skamster: Btw, #neo1973-germany is a fairly active channel too, german speaking |
| 20:40.11 | CM | skamster: He means what does the dmesg say about the phone that was plugged in |
| 20:40.27 | skamster | oh, good to know |
| 20:41.06 | skamster | yeah, but i don't know the dmesg || anything -options to make the output smaller |
| 20:42.44 | josch | CM, oh noes we get too many users recently - I should have never announced our little channel ^^ |
| 20:42.57 | josch | skamster, |
| 20:42.59 | skamster | http://nopaste.org/p/aPIpl2bTqb |
| 20:43.01 | josch | argh |
| 20:43.07 | CM | josch: Aww.. |
| 20:43.14 | josch | skamster, af course you are welcome but we only have one gentoo user |
| 20:44.15 | CM | skamster: I just switched to baselayout-2 and haven't rebooted yet so I'm not sure what's up |
| 20:44.31 | skamster | mh, i think, linux is linux.. i thinked just, it could be, that i didn't compile a right kernel |
| 20:44.33 | CM | I know hal in gentoo has been a bit weird some times, as well as the device-mapper |
| 20:44.51 | SpeedEvil | MarkTheDaemon: on the topic of CAN |
| 20:44.53 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 20:46.14 | Mojo_risin | one can develop and test openmoko software without having a device? |
| 20:46.21 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 20:46.25 | SpeedEvil | Sevceral ways. |
| 20:46.40 | skamster | cm: do you think, it's better to deactivide hal for test's? |
| 20:46.41 | SpeedEvil | A) cross-platform languages - pygtk and friends. |
| 20:46.53 | SpeedEvil | B) Qemu - a hardware emulator |
| 20:46.57 | Mojo_risin | SpeedEvil: is an emulator needed? |
| 20:47.16 | SpeedEvil | C) Compile on your local system as a x86 openmoko application, and run openmoko in a small window. |
| 20:47.21 | CM | skamster: No, but you can look around in the gentoo forums maybe. I've noticed that my usb-drive doesn't auto-mount right now either |
| 20:47.34 | SpeedEvil | Mojo_risin: you can use one |
| 20:47.35 | CM | skamster: I mean look in the forums for similar issues |
| 20:47.44 | Mojo_risin | SpeedEvil: A is excluded :) |
| 20:47.52 | *** join/#openmoko stefreak (n=stefreak@frnk-4d00fbde.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 20:47.56 | Mojo_risin | from the other two, what do you recommend? |
| 20:47.58 | skamster | oke |
| 20:48.11 | SpeedEvil | Mojo_risin: personally D) compile for hardware, but... |
| 20:48.34 | SpeedEvil | Mojo_risin: I suspect I'd be using compile OM for x86 if I diddn't have hardware, it's lots faster. |
| 20:49.09 | Mojo_risin | SpeedEvil: then you have to manually set the window size? |
| 20:49.28 | skamster | i asked now in the german channel, maybe someone could help me there.. :) |
| 20:49.29 | SpeedEvil | Mojo_risin: there are ways to setup a X window containing the OM window |
| 20:49.35 | skamster | thank's for the helps |
| 20:50.32 | Mojo_risin | SpeedEvil: i see... i'll try to build the thing now :) |
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| 21:10.33 | Mojo_risin | SpeedEvil: for qtopia, do i have to build openmoko from scratch? |
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| 21:36.51 | CIA-17 | openmoko: 03werner * r4213 10/developers/werner/ahrt/host/tmc/ (README examples/tty.py tty.c): |
| 21:36.51 | CIA-17 | openmoko: Some cleanup of the tty driver. |
| 21:36.51 | CIA-17 | openmoko: - tty.c (struct tty_dsc, tty_open, tty_write), README: added option "echo" to |
| 21:36.51 | CIA-17 | openmoko: enable checking of command echo |
| 21:36.52 | CIA-17 | openmoko: - tty.c (struct tty_dsc, tty_open, tty_dci), README: added option "no_dci" to |
| 21:36.54 | CIA-17 | openmoko: disable sending of DCI |
| 21:36.56 | CIA-17 | openmoko: - examples/tty.py: use "no_dci" |
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| 22:56.25 | emdete | i have lots of mmc0 messages in syslog - is there a way to switch that off? some kernel param? |
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| 22:58.23 | mwester | You need to rebuild the kernel with mmc debugging turned off |
| 22:59.04 | emdete | mwester: is there a ready-to-flash image somewhere? |
| 22:59.31 | mwester | I'm syncing a mirror right now, but I could try to upload one. |
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| 23:00.15 | emdete | that would be nice. i think it steals lots of performance... |
| 23:00.51 | emdete | is it the same with the pcf50633_* messages? |
| 23:01.44 | mwester | Try http://moko.mwester.net/uImage-2.6.24+svnr4212-r3-neo1973.bin |
| 23:02.15 | emdete | do i need new modules also? |
| 23:02.20 | mwester | Make sure the md5sum is 25d5295ca47b9bc1d4dc26b9910c673f |
| 23:02.27 | mwester | Should work with the existing modules |
| 23:02.45 | mwester | I haven't looked at the pcf50633_* messages... |
| 23:03.12 | emdete | i get those probably for every access to battery status |
| 23:03.37 | mwester | (that image also has the S3 UART debug setting that is claimed to permit GSM to resume the GTA01 on incoming call... I've not tested that. |
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| 23:04.10 | mwester | But the MMC messages are certainly gone, and I think it's faster at boot as well) |
| 23:04.15 | emdete | mwester: would that be the same in gta02? |
| 23:04.38 | mwester | No, according to the mailing list, the S3 UART thing is unique to the gta01 |
| 23:04.43 | mwester | bbiab |
| 23:09.17 | emdete | i've read something about that the kernel switches of if you press the power bttn for 9sec. mine doesnt do that... |
| 23:09.51 | emdete | ...did i get that wrong? |
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| 23:15.39 | emdete | okay, mmc0 debug is gone, now i see more pcf50633_ stuff, this is the output of 2-3 sec: http://rafb.net/p/nSI0fh60.html |
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