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| 00:08.14 | wurp2 | oh crap, I do that fairly often |
| 00:08.18 | wurp2 | I guess I won't any more :-) |
| 00:08.30 | Psi_ | cant you hear the phone screaming at you |
| 00:08.57 | Psi_ | there is a quite distinct high pitch static like sound that comes out of the phone |
| 00:09.02 | wurp2 | sure, but a pc makes annoying beep when you turn it on too |
| 00:09.07 | wurp2 | Oh, I don'tthink I hear that |
| 00:09.14 | wurp2 | just high pitched beeping |
| 00:09.28 | wurp2 | not gonna do it again to see what it sounds like ;-) |
| 00:09.34 | Psi_ | yeah, dont |
| 00:09.57 | Psi_ | im going to post to the community list, just to remind ppl not to do it |
| 00:10.14 | wurp2 | good plan, I'm sure I've never seen anywhere telling me not to |
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| 00:20.41 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03alphaone * r4152 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/artwork/themes/openmoko-standard-2/matchbox/theme.xml: |
| 00:20.41 | CIA-16 | openmoko: The xml parser in matchbox-wm seems strange. Remove spaces between attribute and |
| 00:20.41 | CIA-16 | openmoko: value which caused matchbox-wm to crash. |
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| 02:51.53 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03werner * r4153 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.24.x/patches/ (series wm8753-rout2-inv.patch): |
| 02:51.53 | CIA-16 | openmoko: GTA02 device has a speaker between LOUT2 & ROUT2 and in this mode ROUT2 |
| 02:51.53 | CIA-16 | openmoko: needs to be inverted. This patch adds a mixer control for this. |
| 02:51.53 | CIA-16 | openmoko: Signed-off-by: Graeme Gregory <graeme@openmoko.org> |
| 02:58.50 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03werner * r4154 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.24.x/patches/pcf50633.patch: (log message trimmed) |
| 02:58.50 | CIA-16 | openmoko: From: matt_hsu <matt_hsu@openmoko.org> |
| 02:58.50 | CIA-16 | openmoko: Currently, the battery indication is not correct on Neo. It can be fixed |
| 02:58.50 | CIA-16 | openmoko: to apply the following changes. |
| 02:58.50 | CIA-16 | openmoko: # Attached patch |
| 02:58.54 | CIA-16 | openmoko: # Disable CONFIG_APM_POWER |
| 02:58.56 | CIA-16 | openmoko: Since this configuration would let apm_get_power_status is registered |
| 03:04.22 | wurp2 | It doesn't look as if there's any way to shut down yet in the underground release :-) |
| 03:08.18 | Psi_ | lol, why do i have the dialer keyboard inside terminal now. heh |
| 03:11.14 | wurp2 | I haven't managed that one yet |
| 03:11.32 | *** join/#openmoko olv (n=olvaffe@123-193-161-84.dynamic.kbronet.com.tw) |
| 03:11.32 | wurp2 | Have you had the matchbox keyboard hide the log so you can't unlock the screen? |
| 03:11.41 | wurp2 | s/log /logo / |
| 03:11.52 | Psi_ | na |
| 03:12.02 | wurp2 | That's happened to me several times |
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| 03:24.59 | *** join/#openmoko raster (n=raster@firewall.tw.openmoko.org) |
| 03:27.07 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03sean_chiang * r4155 10/trunk/src/target/audio/ (5 files in 2 dirs): workable audio state for gta02 |
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| 03:38.33 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03werner * r4156 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/environment.in: |
| 03:38.33 | CIA-16 | openmoko: The copy u-boot from NOR to NAND feature produced a non-bootable system. |
| 03:38.33 | CIA-16 | openmoko: At least the preboot pointers where wrong and this change fixes them. |
| 03:38.34 | CIA-16 | openmoko: However, there may be more issues. |
| 03:38.34 | CIA-16 | openmoko: Since the usefulness of this feature is somewhat questionable, we just |
| 03:38.36 | CIA-16 | openmoko: turn it off by default, and maybe look into it again at a later time. |
| 03:38.58 | *** join/#openmoko alvarezp (n=alvarezp@201.160.204.223.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx) |
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| 03:45.39 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03erin_yueh * r4157 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/src/phone-kit/moko-sms.c: sms: change debug msg (Erin Yueh) |
| 03:51.09 | *** join/#openmoko ahbritto (n=guest@adsl-68-125-197-181.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 03:52.59 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03sean_chiang * r4158 10/trunk/src/target/audio/: duplicated |
| 03:54.05 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@rikers.org) |
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| 03:56.37 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03erin_yueh * r4159 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/ (3 files in 3 dirs): gsmd: change TE character set to UCS2 (olv) |
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| 04:10.08 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03werner * r4160 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/doc/ (. dfu-util.1): |
| 04:10.08 | CIA-16 | openmoko: From: Uwe Hermann <uwe@hermann-uwe.de> |
| 04:10.08 | CIA-16 | openmoko: Here's a small manpage I've written for dfu-util. |
| 04:23.41 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03tick * r4161 10/developers/tick/Test_env_script_GTA02A5/setupenv: update images source |
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| 06:39.48 | ahven | anyone running debian unstable aka sid? |
| 06:40.46 | ahven | having trouble configuring it alltogether but removing that check from the configure doesn't keep the program from running though |
| 06:40.57 | ahven | checking Python bindings for gnome... configure: error: |
| 06:40.57 | ahven | **** The python bindings for gnome2 (gnome2-python) could not be found. |
| 06:41.15 | *** join/#openmoko geaaru (n=geaaru@host127-212-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 06:41.52 | ahven | all releveant python-gnome2-* packages are installed |
| 06:43.21 | ahven | and python2.5 is also installed, but does 2.5 need to be the default for gramps 3.0? |
| 06:43.29 | ahven | $ python -V |
| 06:43.30 | ahven | Python 2.4.4 |
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| 06:49.28 | ahven | blah |
| 06:49.33 | ahven | ignoreme |
| 06:49.36 | ahven | wrong channel :P |
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| 06:57.25 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03erin_yueh * r4162 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/ (3 files in 3 dirs): gsmd: revert to r4158 (Erin Yueh) |
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| 07:38.22 | rob_w | cool FIC opened the CAD`s drawings .. nice |
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| 07:57.43 | Hopscotch | good morning |
| 07:58.04 | raster | mooon |
| 07:58.18 | CVirus | morning all |
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| 08:18.28 | methril | morning |
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| 08:45.10 | TRIsoft | morning |
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| 08:53.48 | esben | is openmoko-toolchain target (using MokoMakefile) supposed to be working? |
| 08:54.17 | esben | it fails in do_compile with a lot of standard includes missing |
| 08:55.33 | ScaredyCat | it fails here too... has done for weeks |
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| 09:49.13 | b52laptop | hi |
| 09:49.44 | b52laptop | ppl off topic question: any one heard about a work to port openmoko to zaurus 3200 ? |
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| 09:50.59 | krish | b52laptop: i didnt |
| 09:51.18 | b52laptop | krish, hm ok |
| 09:52.56 | raster | nup |
| 09:53.03 | raster | tho technicaly Oe builds for that |
| 09:53.06 | raster | it could work |
| 09:53.10 | raster | if u got it sane in qvga |
| 09:54.49 | b52laptop | ok |
| 09:57.32 | krish | anyone going with gaming on openmoko? |
| 09:59.29 | *** join/#openmoko norro (n=norro@vpn0061.hrz.uni-dortmund.de) |
| 09:59.30 | raster | gaming? |
| 09:59.34 | raster | be more specific |
| 10:01.34 | krish | running games on openmoko |
| 10:01.42 | krish | or developing games for openmoko |
| 10:01.59 | maroi | how about running a NES emulator on the freerunner, is it fast enough? |
| 10:03.19 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@122-57-167-112.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 10:03.47 | raster | what kind of games |
| 10:03.49 | raster | 3d fp's |
| 10:03.53 | raster | like crysis? |
| 10:04.04 | raster | or simpler 3d like quake 1 or doom 2? |
| 10:04.10 | raster | or 2d scrollies |
| 10:04.14 | raster | or 2d adventure games |
| 10:04.23 | raster | or just casual gaming like tetris |
| 10:04.25 | raster | etc. |
| 10:05.09 | josch | battle for wesnoth works |
| 10:05.10 | krish | not that hight |
| 10:05.13 | josch | openttd works |
| 10:05.14 | krish | *high |
| 10:05.24 | krish | may be 3D fps |
| 10:05.30 | krish | but not great as doom |
| 10:05.34 | josch | scumvm works |
| 10:05.43 | josch | frozen bubble works |
| 10:05.47 | krish | josch: those directly run |
| 10:06.05 | krish | frozen bubble is expected to work |
| 10:06.11 | krish | anyway |
| 10:06.24 | *** join/#openmoko xcasex (n=xcasex@clients.udk.se) |
| 10:06.38 | josch | you can play a lot of sdl games on it (wesnoth and openttd only being examples) |
| 10:06.39 | krish | i guess people need fun games like the old dos roadfighter |
| 10:07.15 | krish | josch: i am not able to make out how openmoko picks the buttons for gaming |
| 10:07.24 | josch | if they run on linux, can be ported to armv4t, are not too ressource hungry and can be played via touchscreen there is nothing against gaming on openmoko |
| 10:07.36 | krish | it sure does pick player move by moving the phone |
| 10:08.33 | raster | correct |
| 10:08.38 | raster | note the gfx are weak |
| 10:08.47 | raster | 3d u wont get - unless u are a wiz at software 3d |
| 10:08.57 | raster | games @ vga are prettry limited |
| 10:09.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1237 has been created by will(AT)openmoko.com |
| 10:09.02 | cdbot2 | * * Volume Control |
| 10:09.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1237 |
| 10:09.03 | raster | dont expect scrolling and "fullscreen" updates |
| 10:09.12 | krish | i'd be great if it can be coupled with bluetooth joystick like http://imshopping.rediff.com/books/imagechek/shopping/pixs/4142/2/thumb_29Sep_ps2_wireless_controller.jpg |
| 10:09.16 | raster | at best u'd hsve a still scene and some sptrites/things changing |
| 10:10.03 | josch | krish, if your bluetooth joystick is working with linux it will work with openmoko |
| 10:10.42 | josch | if your game supports joysticks and is playable on a embedded device like the neo then you can play this game with a joystick on the neo |
| 10:10.49 | josch | it's as easy as that |
| 10:10.54 | krish | josch: ah kool |
| 10:11.14 | krish | i hope openmoko does participate in gsoc |
| 10:12.05 | josch | gsoc? you mean google soc? |
| 10:12.07 | *** join/#openmoko ccube__ (n=ccube@ssh.ccube.de) |
| 10:12.45 | krish | josch: yes |
| 10:13.03 | krish | can someone donate me the green color one? http://www.thealarmclock.com/euro/images/FICphone.jpg |
| 10:13.43 | josch | no longer available as far as I know |
| 10:13.50 | josch | the next version gta02 will be all black |
| 10:14.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1238 has been created by will(AT)openmoko.com |
| 10:14.01 | josch | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page is a good starting point |
| 10:14.01 | cdbot2 | * * SIM card contacts not displayed |
| 10:14.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1238 |
| 10:14.13 | *** join/#openmoko ccube (n=ccube@ssh.ccube.de) |
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| 10:20.28 | krish | josch: i can also use my usb joystick with neo ? |
| 10:20.43 | josch | maybe |
| 10:20.53 | josch | if 100mA are enough for it |
| 10:21.10 | josch | gta02 has usb working in host mode so you can connect usb devices to it |
| 10:21.22 | josch | but only those that require no more than 100mA |
| 10:21.37 | josch | 2,5" harddrives eg. will probably not work |
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| 10:26.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1239 has been created by will(AT)openmoko.com |
| 10:26.01 | cdbot2 | * * Unable to terminate call |
| 10:26.02 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1239 |
| 10:29.57 | *** join/#openmoko ccube__ (n=ccube@ssh.ccube.de) |
| 10:30.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1240 has been created by will(AT)openmoko.com |
| 10:30.02 | cdbot2 | * * SMS crashes Today app |
| 10:30.02 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1240 |
| 10:30.05 | *** join/#openmoko cedric (n=cedric@mieuh.bluebugs.org) |
| 10:33.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1241 has been created by will(AT)openmoko.com |
| 10:33.01 | cdbot2 | * * Delete alert messages on home screen |
| 10:33.02 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1241 |
| 10:34.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1242 has been created by will(AT)openmoko.com |
| 10:34.02 | cdbot2 | * * Saving contacts through call logs |
| 10:34.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1242 |
| 10:34.20 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03graeme * r4163 10/trunk/src/target/ (OM-2007.2/misc/alsa-state-files/ audio/): Move alsa states to a more generic path |
| 10:36.22 | *** part/#openmoko jeffdameth (n=jeff@dyndsl-091-096-040-008.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 10:47.56 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AE137.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:47.59 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03werner * r4164 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (gta02-bootmenu.patch nor-bootmenu.patch uboot-gta02.patch): (log message trimmed) |
| 10:47.59 | CIA-16 | openmoko: This ports wake-up reason handling forward from GTA01. In particular, it makes |
| 10:47.59 | CIA-16 | openmoko: sure that we don't power up unless the POWER button is held down for a while. |
| 10:47.59 | CIA-16 | openmoko: The user interaction of all this still needs a bit of fine-tuning. |
| 10:48.01 | CIA-16 | openmoko: uboot-gta02.patch: |
| 10:48.03 | CIA-16 | openmoko: - board/neo1973/gta02/gta02.c (board_late_init): enabled wake-up reason |
| 10:48.05 | CIA-16 | openmoko: handling and updated it for the PCF50633 |
| 10:50.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1243 has been created by will(AT)openmoko.com |
| 10:50.01 | cdbot2 | * * Phone lock in GTA02 can't resume |
| 10:50.02 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1243 |
| 10:50.36 | krish | omg this is too many bus |
| 10:50.37 | krish | bugs |
| 10:52.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1244 has been created by will(AT)openmoko.com |
| 10:52.02 | cdbot2 | * * Swap orientation horizontal view not calibrated |
| 10:52.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1244 |
| 10:52.14 | *** join/#openmoko tholin (n=tholin@85.8.6.155.static.se.wasadata.net) |
| 10:52.18 | krish | :_( |
| 10:53.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1245 has been created by will(AT)openmoko.com |
| 10:53.01 | cdbot2 | * * Top middle button in call logs does nothing |
| 10:53.02 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1245 |
| 10:54.03 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@s0914.vpn.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de) |
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| 10:56.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1246 has been created by will(AT)openmoko.com |
| 10:56.02 | cdbot2 | * * SMS view filters do not work |
| 10:56.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1246 |
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| 10:58.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1247 has been created by will(AT)openmoko.com |
| 10:58.02 | cdbot2 | * * Call log view filters differ |
| 10:58.02 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1247 |
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| 11:00.21 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1248 has been created by will(AT)openmoko.com |
| 11:00.21 | cdbot2 | * * Network connection alert is unstable |
| 11:00.21 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1248 |
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| 11:12.06 | raster | lots abugz |
| 11:12.10 | raster | yum yum - crunchy |
| 11:12.26 | Man_of_Wax | hi folks. Anyone have an idea why mokomake build busybox for ARM 32bit architecture instead of x86_64? |
| 11:14.14 | Aria | ... Because the Neo is ARM-based? |
| 11:14.35 | Man_of_Wax | ok |
| 11:14.57 | Man_of_Wax | but i can't run openmoko in my laptop |
| 11:15.47 | raster | thats kind of the idea... |
| 11:16.17 | Man_of_Wax | but i compile openmoko with x86_64 flags |
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| 11:21.58 | s0u][ight | hi guys |
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| 11:25.25 | methril | hi |
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| 11:30.25 | raster | Man_of_Wax: i have never tried building for anything but arm |
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| 11:31.36 | FuzzyCat | i has a pidgin |
| 11:31.36 | methril | <Man_of_Wax> what is the sense of doing it for x86_64? |
| 11:32.04 | Man_of_Wax | chrooting it and using xoo/xephir |
| 11:32.11 | *** part/#openmoko krish (n=krish@59.93.95.248) |
| 11:34.53 | josch | Man_of_Wax, i did once try this and it worked great |
| 11:35.00 | josch | I did averything according to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr |
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| 12:07.04 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03werner * r4165 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.24.x/ (5 files in 2 dirs): |
| 12:07.04 | CIA-16 | openmoko: scripts/build, scripts/update: introduced variable PLATFORM to distinguish |
| 12:07.04 | CIA-16 | openmoko: gta01 from gta02 |
| 12:07.04 | CIA-16 | openmoko: config/Makefile: generate platform-specific defconfigs from a single master |
| 12:07.04 | CIA-16 | openmoko: config/defconfig-gta01, config/defconfig-gta02: generated defconfigs (for |
| 12:07.07 | CIA-16 | openmoko: convenience) |
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| 12:42.16 | tuukkah | cjb_ie, how's the openmoko community in ireland? |
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| 12:43.22 | cjb_ie | tuukkah: dunno. i'm only a lurker here i'm afraid :) there's plenty of overlap between here and #osm (openstreetmap) though |
| 12:43.44 | cjb_ie | OSM's next annual conference is in limerick in july |
| 12:44.01 | tuukkah | cjb_ie, did you see a neo yet? |
| 12:44.34 | cjb_ie | tuukkah: nope |
| 12:45.25 | tuukkah | stupid me for not bringing mine to cork :-( but if you visit galway i'm happy to demo |
| 12:48.25 | cjb_ie | tuukkah: cool, thanks :) |
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| 13:52.10 | Sup3rkiddo | howdy all |
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| 14:06.46 | ScaredyCat | does anyone know whihc navigation app this is? http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/e55809bf0e49edd7da61370e1fffdea0.png |
| 14:06.47 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 14:08.24 | Sup3rkiddo | ScaredyCat, pyroute? |
| 14:08.37 | Sup3rkiddo | or tangoGPS |
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| 14:14.18 | ScaredyCat | looks like pyroute... |
| 14:14.20 | ScaredyCat | ta |
| 14:14.31 | mjr | doesn't look like tango; my version of it, anyway |
| 14:14.37 | Sup3rkiddo | ScaredyCat, now kneel before me |
| 14:14.51 | ScaredyCat | suck my balls |
| 14:14.56 | Sup3rkiddo | bleh |
| 14:15.20 | Sup3rkiddo | i thought you would be scared..:S |
| 14:15.35 | mjr | kneel before Zod! |
| 14:15.56 | SuperCat | :D |
| 14:16.16 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-21.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 14:16.22 | josch | ScaredyCat, its pylgrim |
| 14:16.29 | ScaredyCat | who? |
| 14:16.32 | mjr | ...this looks like a job for SUPERCAT! |
| 14:16.32 | josch | me |
| 14:16.35 | Sup3rkiddo | josch, hi long time |
| 14:16.40 | josch | hoi Sup3rkiddo |
| 14:17.11 | ScaredyCat | got a url josch? |
| 14:17.11 | *** join/#openmoko t_s_o (n=tso@61.84-49-136.nextgentel.com) |
| 14:17.13 | josch | a bird, a plane? no! it's supercat! |
| 14:17.25 | josch | ScaredyCat, http://neo1973-germany.de/wiki/pylgrim |
| 14:17.37 | josch | it's a python+evas application |
| 14:17.40 | ScaredyCat | ta, does it use OSM ? |
| 14:17.43 | josch | yepp |
| 14:17.46 | mjr | "But where is the mild-mannered, bespectacled ScaredyCat whenever SuperCat is around?" |
| 14:18.13 | josch | ScaredyCat, you can also have a look at this video demonstartion: http://rabenfrost.net/openmoko/pylgrim/pylgrim_drag&zoom&progress.ogv |
| 14:18.20 | ScaredyCat | roflmao - mickey|sofa ... |
| 14:20.38 | raster | josch: nice |
| 14:20.39 | raster | ：） |
| 14:20.59 | *** join/#openmoko cesarb_ (n=cesarb@grumari.nitnet.com.br) |
| 14:22.06 | ScaredyCat | can it route? |
| 14:23.36 | josch | ScaredyCat, no - it's only a map viewer but it connects to gps |
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| 14:23.52 | ScaredyCat | ah ok... looks good though ... |
| 14:24.09 | josch | i for myself needed nothing more than a map that shows where i am |
| 14:24.35 | zash | lol |
| 14:24.36 | josch | as you can see from the interface it's very minimal and this is the philosophy i wrote the tiny app with |
| 14:24.41 | ScaredyCat | hehe pidgin is a little hard to use on the neo with the soft keyboard visible |
| 14:24.46 | zash | the .ogv crashed vlc |
| 14:24.47 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@209.195.169.219) |
| 14:24.52 | josch | zash, lol? |
| 14:25.00 | josch | zash, i can play fine with vlc |
| 14:25.12 | Sup3rkiddo | zash, use mplayer..period |
| 14:25.23 | zash | mplayer and compiz are not friends :( |
| 14:25.30 | josch | use -vo |
| 14:25.46 | Gottox | -vo x11 -zoom :) |
| 14:25.55 | Gottox | works very fine |
| 14:26.36 | zash | aha |
| 14:26.38 | zash | tnx |
| 14:28.12 | zash | hm, the "downloaded %d of %d tiles" could be anoying |
| 14:28.40 | josch | yeah i will take care of this in feature releases |
| 14:29.09 | zash | :D |
| 14:29.14 | josch | one option atm is to dump all the osm tiles you need - it wont have to download anything |
| 14:29.45 | josch | or you just could use it for some time and because it cashes the tiles it will download very seldom |
| 14:30.11 | josch | a feature idea I'm going to implement is to pre-download tiles that /could/ be needed if the user drags further |
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| 14:36.15 | SpeedEvil | The right solution of course is to render directly from the OSM database - in a packed binary format. |
| 14:36.23 | SpeedEvil | That's a whole bunch more coding though. |
| 14:37.15 | josch | this is what pyroute and navit are for i think |
| 14:37.19 | *** join/#openmoko slchen (n=slchen@61-228-43-161.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 14:37.33 | josch | and i didnt want o do a clone of those |
| 14:39.05 | josch | as I said: all I wanted was a map application as simple as possible and the only features I'll add are things like preloading tiles and double click anywhere on the display that switches between fixed-to-gps-mode and free-to-drag-around-mode |
| 14:40.00 | josch | eg. there wont be more controls than those + and - buttons |
| 14:40.31 | josch | it also was tested on a n770 and there you can use the up/down/left/right and zoom keys to navigate around |
| 14:41.10 | SpeedEvil | josch: a voice note taker'd be nice too |
| 14:41.18 | SpeedEvil | but... |
| 14:41.18 | josch | :-) |
| 14:42.44 | josch | notes of any kind are difficult - I will /maybe/ add such a feature but now I'm more interested to make the current state more robust |
| 14:43.01 | josch | hell it took me only two days to hack this thing together - this is the power of python! |
| 14:43.09 | SpeedEvil | josch: just please don't include a 'download a gigabyte of tiles around my location' feature :) |
| 14:43.30 | josch | this feature is included as an external cli script |
| 14:43.40 | SpeedEvil | Or at least throttle it to 1k/s or so. |
| 14:44.34 | josch | instead of other tile dumping scripts you tell it not four coordinates but only one coordinate of your target and a range around it in km and it calculates the appropriate lat/lon for you and asks you if you really gonna download 10k tiles now |
| 14:45.55 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03werner * r4166 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/environment.in: |
| 14:45.55 | CIA-16 | openmoko: Correct booting from SD/MMC: |
| 14:45.55 | CIA-16 | openmoko: - environment.in: "rootfs=" has to be "root=". Silly. |
| 14:45.55 | CIA-16 | openmoko: - environment.in: commented out ext2-only boot since ext2load is broken in |
| 14:45.55 | CIA-16 | openmoko: u-boot |
| 14:46.18 | ScaredyCat | fix it werner.. fix it.. |
| 14:46.23 | ScaredyCat | :) |
| 14:46.23 | SpeedEvil | Strip - two destinations and a radius is also of use |
| 14:47.24 | ScaredyCat | what's the full osm db size? |
| 14:47.37 | josch | does this commit mean that 2.6.24 still is not working from sd? |
| 14:47.39 | ScaredyCat | (rendered) |
| 14:47.46 | josch | ScaredyCat, too much ^^ |
| 14:47.54 | ScaredyCat | you can use ext3 just not ext2 |
| 14:48.02 | josch | i did some benchmark with packaging osm tiles in squashfs |
| 14:48.04 | SpeedEvil | ScaredyCat: about 40GB or so |
| 14:48.07 | josch | the results where quite good |
| 14:48.12 | SpeedEvil | ScaredyCat: but that's silly - as it's XML |
| 14:48.13 | ScaredyCat | oh, not that muh then |
| 14:48.16 | josch | SpeedEvil, yepp sounds about right |
| 14:48.18 | ScaredyCat | much |
| 14:48.27 | SpeedEvil | ScaredyCat: the packed binary representation fits in around a gigabyte |
| 14:48.27 | ScaredyCat | 40GB is ok for a CarPC |
| 14:48.38 | SpeedEvil | Not compressed - just packed |
| 14:48.47 | ScaredyCat | :O |
| 14:48.53 | josch | show me your car that goes everywhere on the world an needs a 40G dump ^^ |
| 14:49.27 | SpeedEvil | Relatively few countries you'd even consider using it as a car nav system |
| 14:49.54 | SpeedEvil | US, NL, UK, germany, and some other limited bits of europe. |
| 14:49.56 | ScaredyCat | depends if it includes off road sutff too |
| 14:50.00 | josch | sure - calculating from xml is reasonable but much slower than using prerendered bitmaps |
| 14:50.30 | SpeedEvil | ScaredyCat: mostly on-road at teh moment. |
| 14:50.42 | ScaredyCat | how long to render a tile with , say a 1.2ghz box - are we talking 10 secodns or 10 hours? |
| 14:51.07 | SpeedEvil | It uses inkscape as a backend much of it. |
| 14:51.17 | ScaredyCat | cool |
| 14:51.24 | SpeedEvil | Fundamentally - not very long. |
| 14:51.36 | ScaredyCat | so tiles are svg's then ? |
| 14:51.36 | SpeedEvil | With current software - much of it is very long though. |
| 14:51.50 | SpeedEvil | No - tiles are png |
| 14:52.00 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=dr@vnsecurity.net) |
| 14:52.01 | ScaredyCat | :( |
| 14:52.06 | josch | the osm data is xml but |
| 14:52.18 | josch | with xslt you can convert it to svg |
| 14:52.21 | ScaredyCat | wouldn;t svg's zoom working? |
| 14:52.23 | josch | this is the magic of xml ;) |
| 14:52.31 | ScaredyCat | work better.. |
| 14:52.37 | josch | on the neo? |
| 14:52.39 | SpeedEvil | josch: and the horrible, horrible speed. |
| 14:52.42 | ScaredyCat | generally |
| 14:52.48 | ScaredyCat | not just on the neo |
| 14:53.25 | ScaredyCat | just seems to like : if you have the cpu, use it, if not use prerendered tiles |
| 14:53.28 | SpeedEvil | You really don't want to draw large tiles as vectors on slow hardware. |
| 14:53.58 | SpeedEvil | A hundred thousand lines really slows stuff up. |
| 14:54.06 | josch | navit and pyroute are doingexactly this |
| 14:54.22 | josch | but they do it in a very optimised and complex way |
| 14:54.31 | josch | and both are slow (naturally) |
| 14:54.58 | ScaredyCat | well, I guess you don't render the 100,000 lines, only the ones in the viewport, and only to a certain level |
| 14:55.12 | ScaredyCat | of detai; |
| 14:55.23 | *** join/#openmoko Maxou (n=giordani@152.105.167.215) |
| 14:55.46 | josch | yepp but this requires a lot of work and not only those two days it took me to throw pylgrim together ^^ |
| 14:57.50 | ScaredyCat | ;) |
| 14:58.25 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 14:59.16 | SpeedEvil | ScaredyCat: of course - you don't end up with something that looks as nice as a tile though. |
| 14:59.32 | SpeedEvil | ScaredyCat: I mean if you zoom out of a major metropolis. |
| 15:00.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1249 has been created by mickey(AT)openmoko.org |
| 15:00.02 | cdbot2 | * * No Wifi in Managed Mode |
| 15:00.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1249 |
| 15:00.06 | ScaredyCat | !!! |
| 15:00.11 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1250 has been created by mickey(AT)openmoko.org |
| 15:00.12 | cdbot2 | * * No Wifi in Managed Mode |
| 15:00.15 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1250 |
| 15:00.35 | ScaredyCat | well, I've probably only ever zoomed out half a doezn times with my tomtom go... |
| 15:00.47 | ScaredyCat | and the info in that is pretty much al you need |
| 15:01.07 | ScaredyCat | mickeyl: same bug twice? |
| 15:01.19 | ScaredyCat | did you search bugzilla first? :P |
| 15:01.50 | mickeyl | heh |
| 15:01.54 | mickeyl | ~lart 'reload' |
| 15:01.54 | apt | whips out his power stapler and staples 'reload''s foot to the floor |
| 15:03.32 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@umm-yrless170.morris.umn.edu) |
| 15:03.59 | zash | mickeyl: but the big box that says "do you realy want to POST again?" |
| 15:04.36 | Maxou | hello |
| 15:05.04 | josch | zash, mickeyl uses plain tcp to browser the net and hit enter twice after he typed POST |
| 15:05.11 | mickeyl | like josch says |
| 15:05.15 | mickeyl | hardcore browsing |
| 15:05.28 | mickeyl | telnet bugzilla.openmoko.org 80 |
| 15:05.34 | XorA | probably python-efl-webkit :-) |
| 15:05.39 | mickeyl | schhhhhhhhh |
| 15:05.40 | ScaredyCat | roflmao |
| 15:05.43 | mickeyl | don't you dare telling everyone |
| 15:06.10 | XorA | but webkit re-implented in py-vala |
| 15:06.57 | *** join/#openmoko stefreak (n=stefreak@frnk-4d00ffce.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 15:07.00 | *** part/#openmoko Maxou (n=giordani@152.105.167.215) |
| 15:07.03 | mickeyl | heh |
| 15:07.03 | zash | curl ftw |
| 15:08.20 | ScaredyCat | I bet he's really using Vista :P |
| 15:08.26 | ScaredyCat | and ie |
| 15:09.40 | *** join/#openmoko nibbler_de (n=nibbler@as250.net) |
| 15:12.21 | *** join/#openmoko methril (n=Methril@213.27.233.98) |
| 15:15.19 | *** join/#openmoko grummel (n=Grummel@p5B16CC5A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:20.59 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 15:23.19 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03mickey * r4167 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/artwork/themes/openmoko-standard-2/gtk-2.0/gtkrc: gtkrc: add note about TakuIconTile features |
| 15:24.29 | mickeyl | actually no. i got rid of Windows lately |
| 15:27.42 | Sup3rkiddo | real men use set the universal constants and wait for the reload event to unfold naturally |
| 15:27.53 | Sup3rkiddo | ..copied from xkcd of course |
| 15:28.02 | *** join/#openmoko retracile (n=eli@66.205.179.175) |
| 15:28.03 | XorA | we have video footage of mickeyl and his windows lovage :-) |
| 15:28.19 | CVirus | hehe |
| 15:28.21 | *** join/#openmoko tobmaster (n=tobmaste@gw.sinnerschrader.com) |
| 15:28.54 | CVirus | xkcd pwnz |
| 15:31.47 | *** join/#openmoko grummel (n=Grummel@p5B16CC5A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:32.50 | *** join/#openmoko `pwgen` (n=ew@masq.rznet.de) |
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| 15:41.50 | josch | XorA, url or it didn't happen :-P |
| 15:42.09 | XorA | josch: look at koens OEDEM photos from a couple of years ago |
| 15:42.38 | mickeyl | *cough+ |
| 15:44.53 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@70.1.15.252) |
| 15:47.28 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@Mb716.m.pppool.de) |
| 15:47.31 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@rn083002.morris.umn.edu) |
| 15:49.17 | ScaredyCat | got a windows virus mickeyl? |
| 15:50.32 | josch | damn no pictures to be found :-/ |
| 15:52.15 | Sup3rkiddo | somehow i was expecting ScaredyCat to pwn me |
| 15:52.25 | Sup3rkiddo | the matrix is hre |
| 15:53.08 | *** join/#openmoko wibbit (n=douglasf@SAGW-PRIMARY.ARC.COM) |
| 15:54.48 | `pwgen` | hello |
| 15:56.58 | `pwgen` | there are rumours that there should be an gsmd daemon scripted in python not useing the openmokogsmd2. where can i find it ? |
| 15:57.51 | *** join/#openmoko methril|away (n=Methril@127.Red-80-38-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 15:58.32 | josch | `pwgen`, svn checkout svn://projects.linuxtogo.org/svn/smartphones/trunk/software/pyneod |
| 15:58.48 | josch | it's python and works great |
| 15:59.16 | ScaredyCat | josch: is your svn server running on a C64? |
| 15:59.30 | josch | ScaredyCat, only a vserver |
| 15:59.41 | josch | ScaredyCat, you can make donation - then i can switch :-P |
| 15:59.49 | ScaredyCat | pyneod isn't a gsmd daemon |
| 16:00.02 | ScaredyCat | that uses mickeyl's gsmmux |
| 16:00.07 | `pwgen` | hmm i hope .. it is the 3 try getting someting that can speak with the gsm ... |
| 16:00.28 | josch | ScaredyCat, no it also runs standalone |
| 16:00.43 | josch | ScaredyCat, and the gsm muxer is also from emdete |
| 16:01.31 | josch | you can run pygsmd standalone and with the moxer - as standalone version it will provide you a dbus interface to doing all the phone stuff |
| 16:01.51 | ScaredyCat | aye, mybad - sorry emdete. |
| 16:03.51 | `pwgen` | hmm and where can i get moxer aka gsmmux ? |
| 16:04.41 | josch | `pwgen`, svn checkout svn://projects.linuxtogo.org/svn/smartphones/trunk/software/gsm0710muxd/ |
| 16:04.54 | ScaredyCat | josch: what are the python deps for pylgrim ? |
| 16:05.09 | Sup3rkiddo | gsm0710 is gprs thingies...right? |
| 16:05.10 | `pwgen` | josch: THX |
| 16:05.34 | ScaredyCat | `pwgen`: you can download a ready to run image of emdete's stuff from my buildhost |
| 16:05.40 | josch | ScaredyCat, you additionally need optparse and dbus |
| 16:05.56 | ScaredyCat | ta |
| 16:06.36 | `pwgen` | *G* and what ist the url of your buildhost ? |
| 16:06.37 | josch | Sup3rkiddo, gsm0710 is X times gsm plus Y time gprs at the SAME TIME |
| 16:06.50 | ScaredyCat | http://buildhost.automated.it/ |
| 16:07.32 | ScaredyCat | http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/moko-underground-image-fic-gta01.jffs2 |
| 16:07.33 | Sup3rkiddo | josch, danke :D |
| 16:07.36 | ScaredyCat | is a recent image.. |
| 16:07.37 | Sup3rkiddo | underground? |
| 16:07.45 | ScaredyCat | emdete's stuff |
| 16:07.56 | Sup3rkiddo | thats a snazzy name |
| 16:08.06 | ScaredyCat | you don't read my blogposts or mickeyl's do you... |
| 16:08.19 | Sup3rkiddo | ScaredyCat, you have a blog? |
| 16:08.41 | mjr | ooh, ooh, there is progress on the multiplexing front? |
| 16:09.09 | josch | mjr, ask emdete about this - iirc there are still major problems |
| 16:09.14 | Sup3rkiddo | ScaredyCat, gee, whats the link? |
| 16:09.20 | maroi | planet.openmoko.org |
| 16:09.21 | maroi | ;) |
| 16:09.26 | Sup3rkiddo | dang |
| 16:09.27 | ScaredyCat | http://blog.automated.it |
| 16:09.29 | Sup3rkiddo | so obvious |
| 16:09.34 | ScaredyCat | it's on planet |
| 16:09.34 | Sup3rkiddo | ~lart Sup3rkiddo |
| 16:09.34 | apt | does a little 'dpkg -P Sup3rkiddo' action |
| 16:10.36 | mjr | josch, okay. Well. It's just that the neo would be so much more useful if I could keep gprs on ~continuously |
| 16:10.39 | `pwgen` | thx to all, i will try it out |
| 16:14.17 | *** join/#openmoko eugeneoden (n=goden@rrcs-67-79-195-201.sw.biz.rr.com) |
| 16:18.34 | SpeedEvil | mjr: AIUI the gprs can only be suspended during calls - a hardware limitation. |
| 16:18.49 | mjr | yes yes, ~ |
| 16:18.56 | SpeedEvil | the mux means calls can interrupt a gprs session |
| 16:19.19 | *** join/#openmoko unarzna (i=hk69690@node1.cluster.cs.uta.fi) |
| 16:23.02 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@rn083002.morris.umn.edu) |
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| 16:23.38 | *** join/#openmoko grummel (n=Grummel@p5B16CC5A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:24.29 | emdete | mjr: what's the question about the muxer? |
| 16:24.58 | mjr | I was mostly generally enthusiastic that there's progress on that front |
| 16:25.17 | emdete | mjr: not progress, it's finished since weeks :D |
| 16:25.23 | mjr | emdete, so it works? |
| 16:25.27 | emdete | mjr: shure |
| 16:25.36 | emdete | mjr: om does not like it because it's user-space |
| 16:25.42 | mjr | ich sehe |
| 16:25.48 | emdete | mjr: and it uses dbus for channel allocation |
| 16:26.37 | emdete | mjr: you /may/ try to use it with libgsmd as someone already tried but this is a little unstable i think if gsmd does not know dbus |
| 16:27.07 | emdete | mjr: i also used pppd directly with it (without pypppd) |
| 16:27.08 | mickeyl | i wouldn't state it like that |
| 16:27.18 | *** join/#openmoko Marcel_M (n=Marcel_M@86.59.65.236) |
| 16:27.22 | emdete | mickeyl: then correct me ;) |
| 16:27.34 | mickeyl | OM Inc. loves gsm0710muxd. |
| 16:27.42 | emdete | do they? :D |
| 16:27.46 | mickeyl | although they still would prefer an in-kernel solution |
| 16:28.01 | emdete | hey, they didn't tell me! i like love-stories! |
| 16:28.24 | mickeyl | hehe |
| 16:28.25 | emdete | mickeyl: if the neo does umts i start with that, versprochen |
| 16:28.31 | mickeyl | hahah |
| 16:28.34 | mickeyl | righto |
| 16:28.42 | mickeyl | one step at a time |
| 16:28.45 | mickeyl | but honestly |
| 16:28.54 | emdete | for now the user-space-daemon does not eat any cpu with my setup |
| 16:29.04 | mickeyl | given the trouble we have with modem control, i start thinking the userland daemon makes much sense |
| 16:29.35 | mickeyl | with an in-kernel muxer it's tough to get the layering right |
| 16:30.18 | emdete | yes, for now we at least know how that thing has to work. if someone moves that to the kernel at least that is solved |
| 16:30.47 | emdete | mickeyl: the ipk of gsm0710muxd seems to be broken - it tries to install init.d scripts... |
| 16:31.20 | mickeyl | ok, i'll look at it |
| 16:32.02 | emdete | mickeyl: also some dependencies are missing when trying to move to "underground" |
| 16:32.44 | mickeyl | k |
| 16:32.48 | mickeyl | a full rebuild is due today |
| 16:32.57 | mickeyl | since TMPDIR changed ABI |
| 16:33.09 | emdete | ? what does that mean? |
| 16:33.14 | mwester | :D That'll be fun... |
| 16:33.23 | mickeyl | fat ass changes landed today in OE.dev |
| 16:33.30 | mickeyl | for the good, of course |
| 16:33.37 | emdete | when - i started a build some hours ago |
| 16:33.39 | mickeyl | but needs a full rebuild |
| 16:33.49 | mwester | That's what they all say... "This is for your own good"... :D |
| 16:33.55 | mickeyl | hehe |
| 16:34.05 | mwester | Right up there with: "This will hurt me more than it will hurt you!" :D |
| 16:34.12 | emdete | mickeyl: can you give me a time when you did that |
| 16:34.12 | mickeyl | heh |
| 16:34.13 | emdete | ? |
| 16:34.18 | mickeyl | emdete: a few hours ago |
| 16:34.23 | emdete | :/ |
| 16:34.26 | mickeyl | emdete: if you could start a build you don't have the changes yet |
| 16:34.34 | mickeyl | OE will warn you if you have an old TMPDIR |
| 16:34.38 | mwester | Seriously, though, it looks to be a good change, but I think there will be some trauma in getting things sorted. |
| 16:34.47 | mickeyl | absolutely |
| 16:35.04 | mickeyl | it's not for free, but increasing the metadata is the top goal of OE |
| 16:35.10 | mickeyl | +quality |
| 16:35.11 | emdete | mickeyl: how can i check if i have a good "TMPDIR"? |
| 16:35.23 | mickeyl | emdete: OE will not build if your TMPDIR is too old |
| 16:35.25 | mickeyl | it will say |
| 16:35.28 | mickeyl | TMPDIR ABI 0 found |
| 16:35.43 | mickeyl | just don't mtn pull for a while |
| 16:36.49 | emdete | can't follow you... old TMPDIR is bad, i shouldnt pull the new, so what? |
| 16:36.54 | mickeyl | FYI: it was in rev. ce72f9f467a7c0cf9bc1e280749f8f8259ef44b9 |
| 16:37.15 | ScaredyCat | ooops |
| 16:37.27 | mickeyl | well, if you don't have time to do a full rebuild, don't pull |
| 16:37.32 | mickeyl | that's it |
| 16:37.48 | emdete | okay... |
| 16:37.49 | ScaredyCat | and not a good 'oops' either |
| 16:38.22 | ScaredyCat | mickeyl: you could have said that 8 mins ago... |
| 16:38.30 | ScaredyCat | right before I hit enter |
| 16:38.38 | emdete | :D |
| 16:39.09 | mickeyl | ScaredyCat: monotone is a SCM, just update to another rev |
| 16:39.23 | mickeyl | 46a0a75288d26760fdfab6d87d48fb71e729d3ea is the last one before |
| 16:40.07 | XorA | ~lart webkit for failing to build |
| 16:40.07 | apt | says "boot to the head" and knocks webkit over for failing to build |
| 16:41.42 | mwester | I wish someone had tagged that version. |
| 16:42.14 | mwester | (that would be OE that would do that, I guess, not the OM folks) |
| 16:42.39 | mwester | This only applies to the openembedded repo, not the openmoko repo yet, correct? |
| 16:43.50 | mickeyl | yep |
| 16:44.12 | ScaredyCat | you can't build bleeding edge, and not be at the edge mickeyl :) |
| 16:44.23 | mickeyl | indeed |
| 16:44.36 | *** join/#openmoko bentob0x (n=laurent@ip-213-49-79-40.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 16:46.41 | josch | bleeding edje... |
| 16:47.16 | mickeyl | hehe |
| 16:47.25 | mickeyl | #opEnmoko |
| 16:48.24 | *** join/#openmoko denis` (n=anno@dslb-084-059-222-090.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 16:50.58 | josch | mine was more funny :-P |
| 16:53.42 | mickeyl | true |
| 16:55.13 | *** join/#openmoko Mathiasdm (n=Mathias@vpnc005.ugent.be) |
| 16:56.58 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=marex@vasut.kolej.mff.cuni.cz) |
| 17:00.18 | *** join/#openmoko miip (n=miip@p54A55C2C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:00.41 | wurp2 | So is it possible to shut down an 'underground' install right now w/o an ssh cxn? |
| 17:01.28 | ScaredyCat | no |
| 17:01.33 | ScaredyCat | well |
| 17:01.33 | wurp2 | k, cool ;-) |
| 17:01.34 | emdete | wurp2: you mean you are looking for the switch-off in the gui? no, not currently |
| 17:01.34 | ScaredyCat | yes |
| 17:01.39 | ScaredyCat | rip the battery out |
| 17:01.52 | wurp2 | emdete: thx |
| 17:01.58 | ScaredyCat | that doesn't require ssh |
| 17:02.00 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: yeah, I knew that :-P |
| 17:02.05 | emdete | wurp2: sry, it's just 6 weeks old ;) |
| 17:02.12 | ScaredyCat | slacker |
| 17:02.39 | ScaredyCat | :P |
| 17:02.39 | wurp2 | emdete: Oh, it's very impressive |
| 17:02.39 | wurp2 | I was just making sure I didn't miss a piece of the UI |
| 17:02.44 | wurp2 | It looks as if I could add an option to shut down in like 5 minutes if I was willing to just devote a 'thing' to it |
| 17:03.10 | emdete | :D yes, the power daemon already can do it ;) |
| 17:03.11 | ScaredyCat | there's a free button 'hole' |
| 17:03.11 | wurp2 | I glanced over pyneog & pyneod, or whatever those /usr/share dirs are called |
| 17:03.21 | *** join/#openmoko ubuntufreak (n=phoenix@59.92.113.2) |
| 17:03.37 | emdete | yes, its for daemon & gui. |
| 17:04.06 | emdete | ScaredyCat: you mean to put "off" to that button? :D |
| 17:04.35 | *** part/#openmoko slchen (n=slchen@61-228-43-161.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 17:05.51 | *** join/#openmoko raster (n=raster@118-166-80-22.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 17:06.51 | *** join/#openmoko Marcel_M (n=Marcel_M@86.59.65.236) |
| 17:07.06 | wurp2 | Any plan to make one python "app server" type of application that multiple python apps can live in? |
| 17:07.20 | *** join/#openmoko gamin (n=m@car06-3-82-240-156-91.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 17:07.24 | wurp2 | because devoting 4mb to each little process could get to be a bit much |
| 17:08.05 | raster | 4mb? |
| 17:08.17 | raster | where do u gt that # from? |
| 17:08.29 | wurp2 | from running a python program that does nothing but wait |
| 17:08.32 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 17:08.34 | wurp2 | and looking at top output |
| 17:08.42 | raster | ands how do u calculate that number? |
| 17:08.46 | raster | what in top? |
| 17:08.48 | wurp2 | 2.5 mb resident, 4 mb total |
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| 17:08.56 | wurp2 | I didn't calculate, just look at the # in the output |
| 17:09.07 | mickeyl | wurp2: yes, if we are really going to do a full python-UI, then it's going to be an app server / app client model |
| 17:09.09 | wurp2 | 4 mb VIRT for a python process |
| 17:09.09 | mjr | so it's more 2.5MB, much of which would presumably be shared between python instances |
| 17:09.36 | raster | wurp2: whats the share # ? |
| 17:09.49 | wurp2 | Maybe I'm badly misreading top, but it shows a separate entry for shared |
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| 17:09.52 | wurp2 | and it's like 1.5 mb |
| 17:10.01 | wurp2 | so at least 2.5 mb per process |
| 17:10.01 | raster | so really its moe like 1.5m |
| 17:10.10 | raster | with a base cost for all python apps of 1m |
| 17:10.12 | wurp2 | er, 4 - 1.5 = 2.5 |
| 17:10.15 | raster | no |
| 17:10.17 | raster | 1 |
| 17:10.26 | raster | ok res is ? |
| 17:10.31 | raster | whats res or rss? |
| 17:10.40 | wurp2 | res is just 2.5 |
| 17:10.49 | raster | ok |
| 17:10.50 | wurp2 | but still, the total memory matters |
| 17:10.53 | raster | and share is 1.5? |
| 17:11.06 | raster | no - your'e reading it wrong |
| 17:11.08 | wurp2 | I agree that it is 1 mb res per process |
| 17:11.11 | raster | 1.5m of it is shared pages |
| 17:11.19 | raster | that means they are common with other processes on your system |
| 17:11.23 | raster | they are the same memory pages |
| 17:11.26 | raster | they ar enot duplicated |
| 17:11.29 | wurp2 | 1.5 of the 2.5 res, right? |
| 17:11.33 | raster | they are re-used in-place |
| 17:11.36 | raster | yes |
| 17:11.39 | raster | 1.5 of the 2.5 |
| 17:11.43 | raster | so u run 1 python process |
| 17:11.45 | wurp2 | but the total mem is still over 4 mb |
| 17:11.54 | raster | it will almost guaranteed use the exact same 1.5 m shared base |
| 17:12.01 | wurp2 | so while each process may only take 1 extra mb resident |
| 17:12.03 | raster | this is also shared with other procs like c/c++ etc. based ones |
| 17:12.06 | raster | no |
| 17:12.09 | raster | vsize is just virtual space |
| 17:12.19 | raster | tats unimportant (unless u get close to 4g on a 32bit box) |
| 17:12.23 | raster | res/rss is your key |
| 17:12.26 | raster | share is what u subtract |
| 17:12.37 | wurp2 | That swapped space has to go in & out sometimes |
| 17:12.38 | raster | so your real memory footprint is RSS-SHR |
| 17:12.40 | wurp2 | one would assume |
| 17:12.41 | raster | i.e 1mb |
| 17:12.46 | wurp2 | so IO matters too |
| 17:13.09 | raster | VSIZE/SIZE is a superset of all of it |
| 17:13.14 | raster | no |
| 17:13.14 | wurp2 | I wasn't sure whether share was after res, or part of it |
| 17:13.16 | raster | it wouldnt |
| 17:13.21 | raster | it is not touched or used |
| 17:13.36 | raster | RES is your resident memory |
| 17:13.44 | raster | that is the amount of memory you are actually using |
| 17:13.46 | raster | in pages |
| 17:13.53 | raster | that are actually active and live in real memory |
| 17:14.05 | raster | they can either be private or shared |
| 17:14.08 | wurp2 | OK, if I have an app that actively uses 64 mb on a 32 mb box, it will run |
| 17:14.15 | raster | the SHR is the amount of ram in RSS/ |
| 17:14.17 | wurp2 | and will only have (at most) 32 mb res |
| 17:14.21 | wurp2 | but that other 32 mb still matters |
| 17:14.26 | wurp2 | because it's getting swapped in & out |
| 17:14.27 | raster | the SHR is the amount of ram in RSS/RES you SHARE with other processes or can share |
| 17:14.38 | wurp2 | OK |
| 17:14.48 | raster | no it doesn't - if u arent swapping out |
| 17:15.01 | raster | in the case of a neo - u arent swapping |
| 17:15.04 | raster | there is nowhere to swap to |
| 17:15.14 | raster | (unless u went and put swap on flash.. or sd) |
| 17:15.29 | raster | most apps have much more vsize/size than res/rss |
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| 17:15.55 | wurp2 | So an app can have memory in VIRT that doesn't have any real correlation at all in hw? |
| 17:16.00 | raster | unused memory in the virtual memory space is just not used |
| 17:16.11 | raster | its a virtual mapping that is not used/neded etc. |
| 17:16.19 | raster | correct |
| 17:16.22 | raster | it can |
| 17:16.28 | wurp2 | Sorry, I was unaware of that... I thought it all had to be mapped somewhere physical |
| 17:16.32 | ScaredyCat | yeah... eat my ram! |
| 17:16.37 | wurp2 | Is there a way to see how much mem is swapped out, then? |
| 17:16.44 | raster | if i mmap() a 2g file on disk |
| 17:17.29 | raster | my SHR will go up by 2g |
| 17:17.35 | raster | and my RSS will also go up by 2G |
| 17:17.41 | raster | but i actually will not allocate that much |
| 17:17.56 | wurp2 | But in that case, the memory does have a real corollary in hw |
| 17:17.57 | wurp2 | the file |
| 17:18.07 | raster | yes |
| 17:18.08 | wurp2 | Not that I'm arguing against your general point |
| 17:18.09 | raster | but not ram |
| 17:18.25 | raster | the point is - your mem footprint is RSS-SHR |
| 17:18.38 | wurp2 | I can see that the processor could provide a virtual memory space of 4 gig or whatever and not physically back it up except when you use it |
| 17:18.46 | raster | the SHR amount u need to be careful of as it may be split among many current processe sand be a BASE SYSTEM COST DUE TO EVERYONE USING IT |
| 17:19.01 | wurp2 | surely |
| 17:19.02 | raster | oops |
| 17:19.05 | raster | caps |
| 17:19.23 | raster | yes |
| 17:19.26 | raster | correct |
| 17:19.33 | wurp2 | I should say, not physically back it up *until* you use it |
| 17:19.50 | raster | in fact each process can have up to 4g (in theory minus some hw mappijgn and other stuff - so in reality about 3.5g) mapped to it |
| 17:19.59 | raster | u can have 100 procss each with 3.5g mapped to it |
| 17:20.12 | raster | and it may use almost not actual sstem resources |
| 17:20.20 | wurp2 | And that tells you nothing about how much mem + swap it uses |
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| 17:20.27 | raster | correct |
| 17:20.33 | wurp2 | but, I still dunno how you see how much real mem + swap an app uses |
| 17:20.34 | raster | RSS is the only thing that tells u |
| 17:20.37 | raster | if u have no swap |
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| 17:20.43 | raster | if u have swap - then it gets tricky to tell |
| 17:20.49 | raster | (well have swap and are using it) |
| 17:20.59 | raster | as i said |
| 17:21.07 | raster | i am assuming u are not knee-deep in swap |
| 17:21.07 | wurp2 | OK, well thanks very much for the tutorial ;-) |
| 17:21.16 | raster | that your numebrs came from a neo - and thus had no swap |
| 17:21.18 | raster | :) |
| 17:21.21 | raster | u are right |
| 17:21.34 | raster | if u have a chunk of your app swapped out the rss is now not a useful number |
| 17:21.59 | raster | the absolute best measurment u can do is on a whole-system basis |
| 17:22.11 | raster | boot up to point X |
| 17:22.14 | raster | eg a gui |
| 17:22.16 | raster | or whatever |
| 17:22.19 | raster | do a: |
| 17:22.27 | raster | free |
| 17:22.30 | raster | look at: |
| 17:22.36 | raster | -/+ buffers/cache: 135992 1939680 |
| 17:22.51 | raster | the first numebr there is the actual in-ram memory footprint of your whole system |
| 17:23.09 | raster | then run your app |
| 17:23.12 | raster | whatever it is |
| 17:23.15 | raster | then do it again: |
| 17:23.22 | wurp2 | sure |
| 17:23.22 | raster | -/+ buffers/cache: 134616 1941056 |
| 17:23.31 | wurp2 | and your app takes negative memory ;-) |
| 17:23.36 | raster | so i went down there |
| 17:23.42 | raster | something on my system freed up resources |
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| 17:23.46 | wurp2 | Yeah, I understand, oother stuff going on |
| 17:23.49 | raster | as its a whole system - its complex |
| 17:23.51 | raster | :) |
| 17:23.57 | wurp2 | but it at least means that your app is at the noise level |
| 17:24.03 | raster | let me take a better example than xterm |
| 17:24.04 | raster | :) |
| 17:24.27 | wurp2 | Just do it a hundred times, and average the result :-) |
| 17:24.57 | wurp2 | But at any rate, devoting 1 mb of ram to each python process on a system w/ 128 mb total seems excessive |
| 17:25.08 | raster | 113468 -> 132660 |
| 17:25.12 | raster | that is to run gimp |
| 17:25.35 | raster | so 19192kb |
| 17:25.47 | wurp2 | sounds reasonable |
| 17:25.51 | raster | is the "cost" of gimp to bring its gui up to its initial state |
| 17:25.56 | raster | from a baseline system |
| 17:26.11 | wurp2 | and highlights the questionability of 1 mb per do-nothing python process |
| 17:26.28 | wurp2 | python do-nothing < 1/20th of the gimp |
| 17:26.29 | raster | that would be all real malloc()ed ram (ram that would need to be swapped out) |
| 17:26.36 | wurp2 | (should be, that is) |
| 17:26.54 | raster | u can measure increas in cache/buffer usage too to see what level of file IO has been needed to get it up |
| 17:27.04 | raster | this is stuff that can be paged to/from disk dynamically not needing swap |
| 17:27.10 | raster | ut it does impact performance |
| 17:27.39 | raster | u are right tho |
| 17:27.41 | unknown_lamer | wow python uses more memory at start that ... clisp |
| 17:27.46 | raster | but 1mb is probably a base setup cost for python |
| 17:28.03 | raster | you could make your app have 1000 tims the code and u'd probably hit 2mb |
| 17:28.05 | raster | for example |
| 17:28.10 | wurp2 | Yeah, that was why I was asking about client/server |
| 17:28.18 | raster | so u need something more than a trivial example |
| 17:28.19 | wurp2 | well, app server |
| 17:28.32 | wurp2 | although I thought the problem was more than twice as bad as it is :-) |
| 17:28.41 | raster | yeah |
| 17:28.43 | unknown_lamer | shame python doesn't have real threads so you can't load multiple apps into the same image |
| 17:28.49 | raster | thats why i questioned your numbers :) |
| 17:28.56 | wurp2 | I appreciate it |
| 17:29.12 | raster | i just like to help peolpe do the right reading of their memory output |
| 17:29.13 | wurp2 | I'm not sure what python does when you fork |
| 17:29.19 | raster | its almost alwmis-readays |
| 17:29.21 | raster | err |
| 17:29.23 | raster | mis-read |
| 17:29.26 | raster | always |
| 17:29.28 | raster | almost |
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| 17:29.47 | wurp2 | I'll play with checking memory on forked python processes |
| 17:30.08 | wurp2 | unknown_lamer: You can do multiple apps in the same image... it's just not very clean |
| 17:30.12 | raster | beware the copy-on-write monster |
| 17:30.20 | unknown_lamer | wurp2: it should have the same SHR/RES |
| 17:30.20 | raster | it will do interesting things to your stats |
| 17:30.21 | raster | :) |
| 17:30.27 | wurp2 | Unless someone has done something with it that I don't understand |
| 17:30.52 | wurp2 | unknown_lamer: Really? You think that if you do it multi-threaded (not forked) that it will occupy full memory? |
| 17:30.58 | wurp2 | I can't see how that would be the case |
| 17:31.16 | unknown_lamer | wurp2: no if you fork then it will use full memory (by the nature of fork), but threads should be lightweight |
| 17:31.17 | wurp2 | raster: Sure - the fork could go nuts on memory usage as soon as you try to actually do something |
| 17:31.37 | raster | wurp2: initially after fork u should only use 1 or 2 more pages of ram |
| 17:31.39 | raster | or therabouts |
| 17:31.43 | wurp2 | unknown_lamer: I haven't done explicit multithreading in python, but I've seen it |
| 17:31.45 | raster | but yes |
| 17:31.55 | raster | after that it depends how many more pages of ram u write to |
| 17:32.58 | wurp2 | unknown_lamer: I just dunno what you mean when you say python doesn't support real threading |
| 17:33.03 | unknown_lamer | wurp2: isn't there some interpreter lock that makes it kind of useless except for making blocking syscalls? |
| 17:33.40 | wurp2 | unknown_lamer: That may be... but on a single cpu system, is multithreading really useful except during blocking syscalls? |
| 17:33.43 | wurp2 | and for time-sharing |
| 17:33.57 | unknown_lamer | timesharing naturally |
| 17:34.11 | unknown_lamer | you don't want one thread to enter some computation loop that never calls something that yields |
| 17:34.33 | wurp2 | unknown_lamer: I do think I've read about the issue you're talking about, but it sounded to me as if it only really applied to taking advantage of multiple cpus |
| 17:34.37 | unknown_lamer | dunno how python does that though (perhaps after every interpreter loop?) |
| 17:34.53 | unknown_lamer | python is one of the languages I looked at and decided it didn't do anything worth learning it for |
| 17:35.05 | unknown_lamer | because I am an elitist jerk |
| 17:35.55 | wurp2 | I think a well supported language that lets you write 10 lines of code that do the work of 50 in another language is worth learning ;-) |
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| 17:36.18 | wurp2 | Of course, lisp would probably be a better choice, except that I want to also get paid contractor $$$s to write code |
| 17:36.26 | unknown_lamer | wurp2: unless you already know a language that lets you write one line of code to do the work of those ten lines :-) |
| 17:36.33 | unknown_lamer | I am paid to write common lisp |
| 17:37.06 | wurp2 | The market didn't look good enough for lisp to try to switch to it professionally :-/ |
| 17:37.10 | unknown_lamer | you just have to find clients who want you to handle everything |
| 17:37.11 | wurp2 | unknown_lamer: very nice |
| 17:37.12 | unknown_lamer | they seem to pay more too |
| 17:37.29 | unknown_lamer | "just write the damn thing and set up hosting and stuff for it, or install it on our intranet server now GET A CODING" |
| 17:37.47 | wurp2 | True, but finding such clients consistently seems a trick |
| 17:37.54 | unknown_lamer | when I tell them I can do it in half the time for 1.5x the hourly rate and then actually pull it off ... |
| 17:38.00 | unknown_lamer | yeah |
| 17:38.15 | wurp2 | since those are typically the people who don't know how to find anyone in the industry |
| 17:38.22 | unknown_lamer | this is why I like longer jobs (e.g. "hello please replace our secretary with a set of fifteen programs") |
| 17:38.56 | thos | wurp2, I think the idea of comparing languages based on the number of lines of code required to do something is fairly flawed |
| 17:39.08 | unknown_lamer | the only downside is that I have nothing public to show potential new clients :-( |
| 17:39.14 | thos | wurp2, as you have just pointed out in your memory analysis anyway :-) |
| 17:39.15 | unknown_lamer | just "I swear I did this you can email these people" |
| 17:42.17 | wurp2 | thos: Really? On the desktop, unless you're writing a 3D game, cpu and memory are probably the last of your worries |
| 17:42.39 | thos | wurp2, and what's that got to do with lines of code? |
| 17:42.55 | wurp2 | Time to market and # of dev hours is the concern |
| 17:43.01 | thos | wurp2, and I hardly think cpu and memory should be the least of your worries |
| 17:43.14 | wurp2 | And while it's not *always* true that writing 1/10th the code takes less time, it usually is... |
| 17:43.15 | thos | wurp2, oh, and there was me thinking about quality of software :-) |
| 17:43.26 | wurp2 | Surely |
| 17:43.46 | thos | lines of code != quality of software |
| 17:43.52 | wurp2 | You haven't gotten to market in any meaningful way unless your sw does what it's supposed to |
| 17:43.57 | wurp2 | exactly |
| 17:44.08 | thos | and that has no relation on the number of lines of code you can do it in |
| 17:44.10 | wurp2 | But more lines of code is more places for it to go wrong |
| 17:44.19 | wurp2 | Not true |
| 17:44.19 | thos | nope |
| 17:44.47 | thos | wurp2, you think the number of lines of code in python + your app is less than the number of lines in just C and libc? |
| 17:45.02 | wurp2 | thos: Often, yes |
| 17:45.09 | thos | I doubt it |
| 17:45.15 | thos | how many lines of code are there in python? |
| 17:45.20 | unknown_lamer | thos: the lines in the standard library don't count |
| 17:45.20 | wurp2 | But even when it isn't, the code in python is tested WAY more than the code in my app |
| 17:45.25 | unknown_lamer | nor in any library |
| 17:45.46 | wurp2 | unknown_lamer: I would say in any widely used library |
| 17:46.04 | unknown_lamer | aye, I wanted to qualify that with "well written and tested" |
| 17:46.09 | zedstar | both OO and imperative sux....do it in a functional language ;) |
| 17:46.11 | unknown_lamer | reused code is freeeeeee |
| 17:46.31 | mwester | That's a myth. |
| 17:46.46 | thos | so you are basically saying you can't write good code |
| 17:46.59 | wurp2 | thos: I'm basically saying that I'm smart enough not to write code that's already been written and well tested |
| 17:47.04 | wurp2 | thos: Do you unit test? |
| 17:47.12 | wurp2 | If you do, you'r saying you can't write good code |
| 17:47.22 | unknown_lamer | who needs unit testing when you can write a formal correctness proof |
| 17:47.24 | wurp2 | And if you don't, you're an idiot (for any real project) |
| 17:47.34 | thos | wurp2, too right |
| 17:47.41 | wurp2 | unknown_lamer: People who aren't 100% confident in their test ;-) |
| 17:47.59 | wurp2 | s/test/proof/ |
| 17:48.00 | thos | wurp2, but I don't think it automatically follows that just because you can write less code in one language, it automatically means the applications will be better |
| 17:48.05 | wurp2 | I agree |
| 17:48.15 | wurp2 | It is only a rule of thumb |
| 17:48.24 | thos | a pretty bad one |
| 17:48.26 | wurp2 | Lack of type definitions in python is a big deal |
| 17:48.52 | thos | wurp2, if you're a good programmer, you can write the same quality of code in any language |
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| 17:49.05 | unknown_lamer | thos: hardly |
| 17:49.07 | thos | wurp2, just probably python doesn't allow it to blow up in your face as much |
| 17:49.16 | wurp2 | but, when I write an app in TurboGears it takes less than half the time to get the same quality as when I use java/tomcat |
| 17:49.26 | unknown_lamer | I could never write as quality code in C as in say SML |
| 17:49.34 | wurp2 | thos: agreeing with unknown_lamer on that one |
| 17:49.36 | unknown_lamer | owing to the utter lack of language features necessary for clean design |
| 17:49.41 | thos | yup, so experience too |
| 17:49.48 | unknown_lamer | forcing me to use terrible terrible hacky imperative crap |
| 17:49.54 | wurp2 | python makes it so that when it blows up, it tells me why |
| 17:49.59 | thos | so really, it's all down to the experiance and quality of the programmer |
| 17:50.04 | thos | not the language |
| 17:50.11 | unknown_lamer | wurp2: and CL makes it so that you can restart where the computation left off ;-) |
| 17:50.13 | wurp2 | Disagree |
| 17:50.20 | zedstar | plus just use the right language for the job |
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| 17:50.36 | wurp2 | Agreed |
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| 17:50.54 | wurp2 | although, for me, the right language for prototyping is python |
| 17:51.09 | wurp2 | and often the prototype works well enough that I don't rewrite |
| 17:51.27 | unknown_lamer | I like CL because my prototyping and production language are the same |
| 17:51.31 | wurp2 | I'm sure that if I knew common lisp as well as unknown_lamer, that would be my choice |
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| 17:51.44 | thos | wurp2, sorry, I've just seen so many people say "python is better because I don't have as many lines of code", and yet as we have just pointed out, that is only one small factor |
| 17:51.53 | unknown_lamer | 'tho I keep meaning to write some /refactoring/ (just "rename class / method / swap arguments around" stuff really) tools for slime |
| 17:52.03 | wurp2 | But I also suspect I would still be doing java for $$$s :-( |
| 17:52.13 | thos | wurp2, and for embedded devices, I have yet to hear any *user* advantages for using it |
| 17:52.22 | thos | wurp2, as opposed to advantages for developers |
| 17:52.35 | wurp2 | it == python? or Java? |
| 17:52.45 | thos | wurp2, anything :-) |
| 17:52.52 | mjr | developer advantages translate into user advantages of having more and hopefully better software available |
| 17:52.54 | thos | wurp2, but I was thinking about python really |
| 17:52.57 | wurp2 | well, the advantage would be getting an app of reasonable quality sooner |
| 17:53.04 | thos | *hopefully* |
| 17:53.09 | wurp2 | true |
| 17:53.20 | pjz | lua seems to be a win for embedded devices due to small footprint |
| 17:53.26 | thos | wurp2, but you just said, each python process is currently taking up about 1mb for no apparent reason |
| 17:53.33 | thos | pjz, right |
| 17:53.35 | wurp2 | Every app would be better written in microcode, if we had the time & brainpower to spend on it |
| 17:53.50 | pjz | wurp2: myth |
| 17:53.52 | thos | wurp2, I think there's a balance |
| 17:53.59 | wurp2 | thos: Yup, and that's an issue that would have to be solved |
| 17:54.02 | zedstar | anything that compiles to C is also a good choice like Scheme ! |
| 17:54.09 | wurp2 | pjz: Not a myth, that's a clear fact |
| 17:54.12 | ewon | hah, scheme |
| 17:54.26 | pjz | wurp2: compilers are better at optimization than most programmers |
| 17:54.28 | ewon | does anyone use that outside of the odd comp sci course? |
| 17:54.38 | wurp2 | pjz: Take an app in any other language in the best possible way, xlate it to the microcode that executes, find one optimization |
| 17:54.55 | wurp2 | thos: I agree that there's a balance |
| 17:54.57 | thos | wurp2, the point is, we know python has memory issues, so why are people still trying to argue for it's use on embedded devices based on factors such as lines of code |
| 17:54.58 | wurp2 | that was my point |
| 17:55.10 | wurp2 | And I think C is on the far side of that balance for most applications |
| 17:55.44 | unknown_lamer | the lack of GC in C results in terrible memory use issues |
| 17:55.53 | unknown_lamer | owing to the inability to feasibly use structure sharing |
| 17:56.23 | unknown_lamer | it makes life very annoying to have to keep copying stuff to make simple nondestructive updates |
| 17:56.42 | wurp2 | agh, I just stood someone up for a lunch date |
| 17:56.45 | wurp2 | argue with you later :-) |
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| 17:57.20 | zedstar | ewon well yeh but in specialized apps mainly....scientific.... but if u look http://chicken.wiki.br/Eggs%20Unlimited%203 u see has extensions for most things |
| 17:58.48 | zilux | + |
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| 19:58.27 | elation | does dmcrypt work with openmoko ? |
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| 20:08.34 | wurp2 | elation: Sorry, I have no idea |
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| 20:48.07 | sxpert | good evening |
| 20:48.15 | CVirus | good evening sxpert |
| 20:48.20 | sxpert | it appears the documentation to the calypso chip were just leaked |
| 20:48.26 | sxpert | see cryptome |
| 20:49.29 | ewon | jaysus I'm starving |
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| 20:51.14 | elation | sxpert: link? |
| 20:51.29 | sxpert | http://cryptome.org/ti-calypso1.pdf |
| 20:51.37 | sxpert | http://cryptome.org/ti-calypso2.pdf |
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| 20:53.48 | elation | win 15 |
| 20:54.06 | emdete | sxpert: access denied |
| 20:54.14 | sxpert | hmm ?? |
| 20:54.23 | sxpert | go via the main site |
| 20:54.30 | sxpert | http://www.cryptome.org |
| 20:54.35 | sxpert | first and second link |
| 20:54.57 | sxpert | it's probably checking referrer |
| 20:54.58 | emdete | no, won't work |
| 20:55.05 | sxpert | one sec :-) |
| 20:55.09 | emdete | Access Forbidden |
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| 20:56.11 | sxpert | there, mirrored :-)http://www.sxpert.org/torrents/TI-Calypso%20documentations/ |
| 20:56.37 | mmontour | Yay, now how about one for the Hammerhead GPS chip? |
| 20:56.48 | sxpert | heh |
| 20:57.39 | emdete | thnx |
| 20:58.27 | kdean06 | I asked on the mailing list, what does this means by "leaked"? Were these given up freely? Does viewing that put developers at risk? |
| 20:58.38 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 20:58.41 | SpeedEvil | well |
| 20:59.07 | SpeedEvil | you're vnot covered by any licences that may be granted by the NDA |
| 20:59.09 | sxpert | the cat's out the bag now... they can't complain anymore |
| 20:59.18 | SpeedEvil | and are violating the copyright of |
| 20:59.19 | SpeedEvil | TI |
| 20:59.28 | SpeedEvil | sxpert: of course they can |
| 20:59.52 | sxpert | well. the "trade secret" ain't secret anymore. too bad for them |
| 20:59.52 | ynezz | wow |
| 21:00.57 | emdete | SpeedEvil: what do you think can happen - worst case? |
| 21:01.18 | SpeedEvil | I em: the TI ninjas come and take away your computer. |
| 21:01.22 | sxpert | "I got those docs from cryptome"... |
| 21:01.46 | SpeedEvil | emdete: practically - they have as much right as any media company to cause problems for your internet connection or whatever. |
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| 21:01.54 | SpeedEvil | It's no different from distributing an mp3. |
| 21:01.56 | ynezz | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:01.59 | ynezz | UNDER NON DISCLOSURE |
| 21:02.13 | ynezz | :D |
| 21:02.15 | ynezz | funny day |
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| 21:03.06 | sxpert | this being on cryptome, it's public now... cat ain't going back in the bag |
| 21:03.23 | SpeedEvil | As I understand it, copying out the data in altered form, means anyone could look at it legally. |
| 21:03.42 | SpeedEvil | (however, you're still in violation of the copyright for making a copy) |
| 21:03.49 | sxpert | yeah, well... |
| 21:04.00 | emdete | SpeedEvil: so if i change my program using information from that could that lead to problems? |
| 21:04.19 | sxpert | emdete, well... |
| 21:04.21 | ynezz | jtag, nice |
| 21:04.35 | sxpert | get someone to rewrite the doc, and use said rewrite :-) |
| 21:04.52 | sxpert | that will then be a legal doc |
| 21:04.57 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 21:05.19 | SpeedEvil | emdete: in theory, they could cause you problems for copyright infringment. |
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| 21:05.50 | SpeedEvil | I'm not completely sure what the problems are for users of any GPLd code you may have generated from that copyright infringment. |
| 21:06.42 | sxpert | usually they concede defeat |
| 21:07.56 | sxpert | anyhoo... this could lead to totally free GSM phone |
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| 21:08.12 | sxpert | with network debugging features and stuff... |
| 21:08.14 | SpeedEvil | sxpert: that would make it illegal to sell in the UK |
| 21:08.35 | SpeedEvil | It'd be an actual imprisonable offence to sell it. |
| 21:08.40 | sxpert | SpeedEvil, so long as it's sold with the official firmware, you're probably safe. |
| 21:09.02 | sxpert | then nothing prevents the owner of hacking said firmware for more features |
| 21:09.15 | mohamed | hi all, I want to port openmoko to sun4cdm instead if ficgta01, does any one know how can I do that? |
| 21:09.33 | SpeedEvil | Any coder of any such open-source phone software is a mobile phone hacker, and is similarly liable for jail-time. |
| 21:09.39 | SpeedEvil | (in the UK) |
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| 21:10.02 | SpeedEvil | (at least, once the first person abuses the code) |
| 21:10.17 | sxpert | furthermore in the UK everyone is presumed terrorist before being proven guilty |
| 21:10.40 | SpeedEvil | This legislation was brought in when phone cloning was a big problem. |
| 21:10.48 | sxpert | ah well... |
| 21:11.00 | SpeedEvil | It's really aimed at guys with soldering irons chipping phones to alter the IMSI/IMEI |
| 21:11.06 | SpeedEvil | To get free calls. |
| 21:11.33 | SpeedEvil | However, software that lets users do this is equally liable to prosecution. |
| 21:11.37 | sxpert | SpeedEvil, hmm... What's the purpose of the SIM then ? |
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| 21:12.06 | sxpert | isn't the SIM supposed to be not-cloneable and containing the subscription info ? :-) |
| 21:12.18 | SpeedEvil | Or rather |
| 21:12.33 | SpeedEvil | that was part of it - some phones held the credit info on the |
| 21:12.39 | SpeedEvil | phone |
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| 21:13.06 | SpeedEvil | the legislation was also to cover that. The changing IMEI/IMSI is more if they steal the phone, so it can be unbarred |
| 21:14.04 | sxpert | yeah, well.. |
| 21:14.19 | sxpert | the thing was obviously badly designed, as usual |
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| 21:14.40 | SpeedEvil | GSM is quite an old protocol. |
| 21:15.14 | sxpert | doesn't excuse the security sloppyness within |
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| 21:16.00 | sxpert | anyhow, the doc is now in the wild... |
| 21:16.37 | abraxa_ | And I wonder if they're going to find out who it leaked from. I don't want to be in that person's shoes... |
| 21:17.22 | SpeedEvil | 'my computer got stolen, ...' |
| 21:17.26 | sxpert | heh |
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| 21:18.12 | SpeedEvil | Even if it is, developing anything to actually _use_ the radio would be a huge task. |
| 21:18.19 | ynezz | mjr: download is |
| 21:18.53 | sxpert | SpeedEvil, reverse engineering the binary blob is probably doable though, and would allow adding stuff within |
| 21:18.58 | mjr | SpeedEvil, yeah, ynezz, nah |
| 21:19.06 | SpeedEvil | If not signed. |
| 21:19.16 | SpeedEvil | If not encrypted |
| 21:19.18 | SpeedEvil | rather |
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| 21:19.51 | sxpert | SpeedEvil, can probably be hacked around. docs are dated 2000... |
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| 21:20.04 | sxpert | it's not like this is the latest |
| 21:20.53 | SpeedEvil | good code security in 2000 is good code security now |
| 21:20.53 | emdete | the docs just describe the hw, no word about the software on it... so for me it doesn't help alot. |
| 21:21.21 | sxpert | emdete, the software within the binary blob makes use of the hardware |
| 21:21.35 | sxpert | to realize the "GSM modem" functionnality |
| 21:21.56 | emdete | sxpert: shure - i am interested in the real behavior of the varius standard and (not documented) non-standard AT commands |
| 21:22.19 | sxpert | emdete, that you can gather by disassembling the binary blob |
| 21:22.26 | emdete | sxpert: and: i am not interested to reverse-engenier that. i am intersted in a stable pygsmd ;) |
| 21:22.48 | sxpert | one would go with the other I suppose :-) |
| 21:23.09 | SpeedEvil | Move pygsmd onto the calypso! |
| 21:23.18 | sxpert | the one thing I'd like is network debugging features like certain nokia phones can do |
| 21:23.32 | emdete | SpeedEvil: having a dbus between the 2 arms? :D |
| 21:23.56 | sxpert | emdete, using the serial port as communication medium :-) |
| 21:24.06 | emdete | yes! |
| 21:24.17 | emdete | throw away hayes! |
| 21:25.15 | sxpert | let me call even using the "public emergency" channels, so that I can still call out when everyone is trying to call from the convention floor |
| 21:26.02 | emdete | sxpert: excelent use-case! yes, that makes intersting features into the neo |
| 21:26.44 | sxpert | also, add encryption after the GSM encoder :-) |
| 21:27.06 | SpeedEvil | you don't want to do that really |
| 21:27.25 | SpeedEvil | you want a pure data mode - to give you the raw data, over which you run your own FEC |
| 21:27.52 | sxpert | ah, that too :-) |
| 21:27.58 | SpeedEvil | the GSM voice codecs are designed to accept errors without horrible audio result |
| 21:28.06 | SpeedEvil | error free channels are a bit rare. |
| 21:28.11 | emdete | :D the neo could get an interesting device this way |
| 21:28.17 | sxpert | ah ok. then... encrypt and then data mode :-) |
| 21:28.30 | sxpert | without incurring the data surcharge, obviously |
| 21:28.56 | sxpert | and without having to pay 6K to siemens for an encryption module |
| 21:29.49 | sxpert | SpeedEvil, alternatively, use a different encoder that allows for 100% data recovery |
| 21:30.52 | SpeedEvil | Someone else that read it reports to me that it's basically limited to what hardware is absolutely required to do the hard-realtime. All else is software. |
| 21:31.21 | SpeedEvil | So the binary blob is really the core of the implementation. |
| 21:31.22 | sxpert | which means we could add anything really :-) |
| 21:32.16 | SpeedEvil | Again though, this would violate TIs copyright if you just alter the blob and distribute it. |
| 21:32.21 | sxpert | that thing is similar in design to those "softmac" wifi cards then |
| 21:32.29 | sxpert | SpeedEvil, right |
| 21:32.37 | SpeedEvil | sxpert: basically yes. |
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| 22:25.25 | Blastur | doc leak? |
| 22:26.46 | sxpert | Blastur, yeppers :-) |
| 22:27.41 | Blastur | explain |
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| 22:27.49 | dvarnes | is this common in the mobile handset ODM space, or really unusual? |
| 22:28.30 | sxpert | Blastur, documentation for the calypso chipset appeared today on cryptome.org |
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| 23:02.23 | wurp2 | Gary Gygax, RIP. :-( |
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