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| 00:28.40 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03werner * r4111 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.24.x/patches/ (fix-i2c-s3c2410-resume-race.patch series): (log message trimmed) |
| 00:28.40 | CIA-16 | openmoko: fix-i2c-s3c2410-resume-race.patch |
| 00:28.40 | CIA-16 | openmoko: From: Andy Green <andy@openmoko.com> |
| 00:28.40 | CIA-16 | openmoko: There is a nasty race between i2c-s3c2410 resume and resume of I2C |
| 00:28.42 | CIA-16 | openmoko: driver and the client drivers -- the watchdog device actually gets to |
| 00:28.44 | CIA-16 | openmoko: use the dead I2C bus before it is reinitialized by the I2C driver |
| 00:28.46 | CIA-16 | openmoko: resume! This patch makes sure any customers get turned away until |
| 00:32.25 | johnycsh | mmontour: I got the debugboard talking! It was just a bad connection |
| 00:32.32 | johnycsh | thanks for the help :) |
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| 01:29.06 | xaid | Hi. i was wondering if anyone with a Neo had a chance to run tests on Rogers in Alberta (more specifically Edmonton/St.Albert)? i tested a Nokia N70 (no 850 Mhz) and it ran fine, so I was wondering how the current GTA01 works. |
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| 02:16.49 | wurp2 | Does anyone know why python-dbus isn't in the repositories any more? |
| 02:17.00 | wurp2 | Or where I can find it? |
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| 03:18.20 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03werner * r4112 10/trunk/src/target/gpio/gpio.c: gpio.c (pin_a): mark port A pin values as outputs |
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| 04:38.22 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03werner * r4113 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/flashnor: flashnor: utility to intelligently flash the GTA02 NOR |
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| 07:20.10 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 07:26.17 | Cap_J_L_Picard | Hopscotch: Good Morning |
| 07:33.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1236 has been created by julian_chu(AT)openmoko.com |
| 07:33.01 | cdbot2 | * * Xglamo |
| 07:33.02 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1236 |
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| 07:53.10 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03werner * r4114 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.24.x/patches/gta01-inputdevice.patch: |
| 07:53.10 | CIA-16 | openmoko: We can wake up from suspend with POWER, so there's no need to have AUX as |
| 07:53.10 | CIA-16 | openmoko: as another wakeup source, and in particular one that's easily triggered |
| 07:53.10 | CIA-16 | openmoko: by accident. |
| 07:53.11 | CIA-16 | openmoko: gta01-inputdevice.patch: |
| 07:53.11 | CIA-16 | openmoko: - drivers/input/keyboard/neo1973kbd.c (neo1973kbd_probe): don't make AUX a |
| 07:53.15 | CIA-16 | openmoko: wakeup source ever |
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| 07:57.50 | hrw | morning |
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| 08:06.47 | Moniker42 | hey |
| 08:06.57 | Moniker42 | errr... is the neo1973 waterproof? |
| 08:07.38 | raster | HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH |
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| 08:57.19 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03erin_yueh * r4115 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/ (6 files in 5 dirs): gsmd: add vibrator at cmd (Sudharshan S) |
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| 09:02.37 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03erin_yueh * r4116 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/include/gsmd/usock.h: gsmd: sms data structure (Paulius Zaleckas) |
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| 09:50.19 | Marcel_M | wurp2: http://celtune.morb-design.com/ipk/armv4t/python-dbus_0.81.1-ml1_armv4t.ipk |
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| 09:52.04 | florian | good morning |
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| 10:13.05 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03werner * r4117 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/setup.sh: setup.sh: use envedit.pl -s 0x40000 on GTA02 |
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| 11:44.44 | ruoso | Hi... I've flashed the 2008-02-20 image |
| 11:45.20 | ruoso | it seems to work just fine, but it doesn't get the PIN correctly... it asks... I give it, but it acts as if the PIN was incorrect |
| 11:45.34 | ruoso | I've already tried the sim in other phone |
| 11:45.39 | ruoso | and the pin is correct |
| 11:45.59 | ruoso | any idea why is this happening? any workaround? |
| 11:46.32 | zash | what if you disable the pin |
| 11:46.40 | ruoso | can I/ |
| 11:46.41 | ruoso | ? |
| 11:46.59 | ruoso | I mean... is it possible to use a gsm sim without a pin? |
| 11:47.07 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 11:47.07 | zash | i think someone said you had to enter pin manualy |
| 11:47.13 | SpeedEvil | Mine has no pin |
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| 11:47.46 | zash | 13:43:26 < teprrr> I get the insert pin dialog, but it doesn't accept my pin code |
| 11:47.49 | zash | 14:10:32 < teprrr> ahh. got it. had to enter the pin manually with libgsmd-tool :P |
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| 11:48.25 | ruoso | SpeedEvil, but considering mine has... is it possible to remove pin checking from a working sim card? |
| 11:48.31 | ruoso | zash, ok... I'll try that... |
| 11:48.51 | zash | ruoso: i can disable pin in my 7 years old phone |
| 11:49.24 | *** join/#openmoko methril (n=Methril@213.27.233.98) |
| 11:49.25 | SpeedEvil | I have no idea. |
| 11:51.44 | ruoso | zash, hmmm... I don't think my phone has a way to do that... could you ellaborate on that? |
| 11:53.19 | ruoso | zash, hmm... I've just found it... |
| 11:53.21 | ruoso | thanks |
| 11:53.23 | zash | :D |
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| 11:56.53 | Blastur | ruoso, someone said a few days back you had to enter the pin manually into gsmd or whatever |
| 11:57.14 | Blastur | someone had similar problems, i think there is a irc log for this channel somewhere |
| 11:57.23 | zash | 12:47:46 < zash> 14:10:32 < teprrr> ahh. got it. had to enter the pin manually with libgsmd-tool :P |
| 11:57.33 | zash | ;) |
| 11:57.34 | Blastur | oh, right |
| 11:57.38 | Blastur | sorry :) |
| 11:57.41 | Blastur | i just woke up |
| 11:57.54 | zash | good morning too you then |
| 11:58.05 | Blastur | thank you! it is a good morning |
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| 12:01.36 | ruoso | Blastur, I've disabled the pin in the sim card... but thanks anyway |
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| 12:07.33 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03werner * r4118 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (gta02-splash.patch uboot-gta02.patch): (log message trimmed) |
| 12:07.33 | CIA-16 | openmoko: Driving nDL_GSM low caused the GSM modem to inject communication requests |
| 12:07.33 | CIA-16 | openmoko: into the audio system, causing the characteristical clicking sound of a |
| 12:07.33 | CIA-16 | openmoko: GTA02 starting up, and these requests also caused lots of interrupts on |
| 12:07.35 | CIA-16 | openmoko: JACK_INSERT, slowing down the CPU. |
| 12:07.37 | CIA-16 | openmoko: This patch sets nDL_GSM high by default, and lowers it only when we turn |
| 12:07.39 | CIA-16 | openmoko: the modem on or off. (Under Linux, there nDL can be controlled separately |
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| 13:42.02 | leno29 | hi to all |
| 13:43.02 | leno29 | i want to know if there is some project of interest |
| 13:43.08 | leno29 | that i can play for openmoko |
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| 13:43.54 | leno29 | !!!! |
| 13:45.13 | leno29 | for example a porting of vlc |
| 13:45.16 | leno29 | can interest? |
| 13:46.31 | leno29 | why nobody speak? |
| 13:46.54 | zash | check projects.openmoko.org |
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| 14:06.27 | dneary | hi |
| 14:06.32 | dneary | mickeyl: Ping? |
| 14:06.52 | dneary | mickeyl: Are you coming to Austin for the LF Collaboration Summit? |
| 14:07.03 | *** join/#openmoko Ryback_ (n=ulisses@200.184.118.132) |
| 14:07.04 | dneary | I'd be interested in having you there for the GNOME Mobile meeting |
| 14:09.28 | mickeyl | dneary: hi. sorry, but i already booked a vacation during this time frame. besides, i promised my wife and bosses to travel less this year and do more coding ;) |
| 14:09.48 | mickeyl | i did not yet decide on guadec though |
| 14:10.06 | mickeyl | will there be a GMM as well there? |
| 14:11.02 | hrw | mickeyl: go to guadec |
| 14:11.14 | mickeyl | hrw: will you be there? |
| 14:11.18 | hrw | mickeyl: it will be probably the only one conference for me in this year |
| 14:11.21 | mickeyl | ah |
| 14:11.23 | ScaredyCat | wait... you don;t code on those long distance flights?! |
| 14:11.49 | hrw | mickeyl: guadec+oedem probably |
| 14:12.10 | mickeyl | ScaredyCat: i don't. and i really hate flying more than 6 hours |
| 14:12.19 | mickeyl | unfortunately FRA -> TPE is 14 |
| 14:12.32 | hrw | lucky that you have direct flight |
| 14:12.36 | mickeyl | right |
| 14:12.39 | mickeyl | could be worse |
| 14:12.41 | ScaredyCat | but you have those foldy out beds ? |
| 14:12.51 | hrw | for me it would be POZ -> FRA -> TPE probably ;D |
| 14:12.53 | mickeyl | ScaredyCat: heh. this is economy class |
| 14:12.58 | ScaredyCat | or do they make you travel cattle |
| 14:13.00 | ScaredyCat | :( |
| 14:13.04 | mickeyl | of course :/ |
| 14:13.09 | mickeyl | OM Inc. is hardly profitable yet |
| 14:13.56 | ScaredyCat | aye I guess so... |
| 14:13.56 | SpeedEvil | mickeyl: cna you reveal total sales of GTA01? |
| 14:14.50 | mickeyl | SpeedEvil: i'm afraid not. i can only say we're sold out |
| 14:14.57 | ScaredyCat | are you going to computex mickeyl? |
| 14:15.44 | mickeyl | ScaredyCat: no. unless it's not super-super-mega-important, i will never visit taiwan in summer again. the climate is reducing my work efficiency a lot |
| 14:15.56 | mickeyl | thermal throttling |
| 14:16.00 | ScaredyCat | :) |
| 14:16.01 | mickeyl | and the AC does not help a european... |
| 14:16.16 | ScaredyCat | will FIC be there do you know? |
| 14:16.19 | *** join/#openmoko erikwt (n=ewn@holmen.surfsnel.dsl.internl.net) |
| 14:16.23 | mickeyl | sure |
| 14:16.38 | ScaredyCat | good stuff |
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| 14:29.40 | wurp2 | Marcel_M: Thanks!!! |
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| 14:35.04 | dneary | mickeyl: OK - try to make GUADEC then :) |
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| 15:18.14 | Sup3rkiddo | hey all, gsoc has been announced. Tell me OM will be participate to get in some cool code :D |
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| 15:21.08 | Mek | they did participate last year... |
| 15:21.56 | Sup3rkiddo | yeah |
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| 16:03.58 | Stephmw | SpeedEvil: OSM-related company in London, http://www.zxv.ltd.uk/blog/ |
| 16:04.08 | Stephmw | SpeedEvil: they're currently recruiting for J2ME devs |
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| 16:13.36 | wurp2 | Stephmw: Any idea of what the pay is like? |
| 16:14.05 | wurp2 | I'm a java developer currently infatuated with the Neo who wants to move to London, so it sounds pretty exciting to me :-) |
| 16:14.49 | wurp2 | On a totally different topic, is it accurate to say that the worst that could happen from my phone going into suspend is that I might lose a call? |
| 16:15.05 | wurp2 | Resume works consistently, and leaves the gsm in a good state to receive/make new calls? |
| 16:15.14 | cjb_ie | wurp2: you'll find a couple of ZXVers on #osm on oftc |
| 16:18.00 | wurp2 | cjb_ie: cool, thanks |
| 16:22.18 | Stephmw | wurp2: good lord, I'd have no idea |
| 16:22.36 | summatusmentis | is Openmoko doing anything for GSoC? |
| 16:22.40 | Stephmw | wurp2: I imagine salaries with the required experience might start around £24k |
| 16:23.03 | Stephmw | wurp2: how's your J2ME? |
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| 16:30.56 | wurp2 | Stephmw: way too good to work for 24k pounds ;-) |
| 16:31.08 | *** part/#openmoko amon_ (n=amon@p508EDE2F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:31.23 | wurp2 | actually, I haven't focused on j2me; I'm primarily a server side guy |
| 16:31.39 | Stephmw | wurp2: http://www.zxv.ltd.uk/jobs/java-developers-needed/ is the posting |
| 16:31.51 | wurp2 | So I imagine both of us would be dissatisfied, at least superficially |
| 16:31.54 | Stephmw | wurp2: if feels like a junior position, but who knows, maybe there's something better? |
| 16:31.55 | wurp2 | cool, thanks! |
| 16:32.30 | wurp2 | Yeah, that looks junior, but I think I'll send 'em a resume anyway |
| 16:32.49 | wurp2 | Oh, wait, first paragraph says they're looking for both jr and sr |
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| 16:52.51 | ScaredyCat | 24k? in London? they must be looking for a school leaver, right? |
| 16:53.12 | Stephmw | ScaredyCat: prices aren't what they used to be |
| 16:53.30 | ScaredyCat | I *started* work in London for more than that! |
| 16:53.50 | ScaredyCat | that was a while ago now... |
| 16:53.53 | Stephmw | what with the new EU countries and India-based labour, prices are getting squeezed |
| 16:54.02 | ScaredyCat | and accounting for inflation... ouch! |
| 16:54.12 | Stephmw | yeah, 24k is nothing |
| 16:54.46 | ScaredyCat | <1300 take home? |
| 16:54.58 | ScaredyCat | then there's your train ticket.. |
| 16:55.17 | ScaredyCat | (cos there's no way you'll live near london at that salary) |
| 16:55.59 | ScaredyCat | you be better off livin in india and working from there ;) |
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| 17:07.56 | mwester-road | ScaredyCat: I think that's probably the intention of the posting. They have no intention of hiring locally, but it's bad PR to make it obvious. |
| 17:09.30 | *** join/#openmoko Seb` (n=seb@bld.chezseb.net) |
| 17:10.36 | Stephmw | ScaredyCat: aye, I think to live anywhere inwards of Zone 3 you need around 30k or a combined income |
| 17:10.54 | *** join/#openmoko geaaru (n=geaaru@79.24.210.71) |
| 17:11.07 | zefanja | hi...is it possible to build a rootfs with the mokomakefile without building the kernel? |
| 17:12.05 | *** join/#openmoko ag0ny (n=sascha@213.157.2.194) |
| 17:12.42 | XorA | freerunner is looking good so far |
| 17:14.02 | mwester-road | zefanja: No, the rootfs includes the kernel modules, so the current recipes have a dependency on the kernel. |
| 17:14.23 | ScaredyCat | hrrump |
| 17:14.28 | zefanja | mwester-road: hmm...ok |
| 17:14.33 | ScaredyCat | stop teasing us |
| 17:14.45 | Stephmw | tease me some more! |
| 17:14.47 | XorA | ScaredyCat: you guys wont have much longer to wait hopefully |
| 17:15.22 | mwester-road | s/2/1/ |
| 17:15.23 | ScaredyCat | if it's longer than 10 minutes it's too long |
| 17:15.24 | mwester-road | sigh |
| 17:16.03 | ScaredyCat | are you *on* the road... or en route |
| 17:16.19 | XorA | ScaredyCat: well its better than getting a broken neo which would make you cry :-) |
| 17:16.39 | ScaredyCat | true |
| 17:17.30 | mwester-road | ScaredyCat: I'm travelling, but I'm not actually in motion. Perhaps I need to change the nick to better express my state... |
| 17:18.35 | mwester-road | mwester-remote? mwester-not-at-home? mwester-away-from-his-neo-and-toys? :p |
| 17:18.49 | ScaredyCat | mwester-I'm-travelling-but-I'm-not-actually-in-motion |
| 17:19.14 | mwester-road | mwester-visting-a-customer-and-supposed-to-be-doing-real-work? |
| 17:19.17 | *** part/#openmoko jeffdameth (n=jeff@dyndsl-091-096-032-192.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 17:19.27 | *** join/#openmoko mpl48 (n=mpl48@88.161.97-84.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 17:19.59 | mwester-road | Actually, customer is at "lunch" and playing cards in the cafeteria, so it's not so bad... |
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| 17:25.13 | ScaredyCat | XorA: any video ? |
| 17:25.22 | ScaredyCat | of sexy stuff on FR |
| 17:25.46 | *** join/#openmoko pH5 (n=ph5@e178219095.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 17:26.24 | XorA | ScaredyCat: I dont have a camera |
| 17:26.38 | *** join/#openmoko stefreak (n=stefreak@frnk-4d014133.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 17:26.41 | ScaredyCat | send me your freerunner :) |
| 17:26.45 | ScaredyCat | I'll do it |
| 17:26.47 | ScaredyCat | :P |
| 17:26.48 | XorA | ScaredyCat: you should have come to FOSDEM |
| 17:27.32 | ScaredyCat | If I could I would, but I'm already pushing my luck with 2 weeks in .nl and 2 in uk ...:( |
| 17:27.32 | ScaredyCat | eeem |
| 17:27.36 | ScaredyCat | I would if I could |
| 17:29.12 | ScaredyCat | you have a working unit though? |
| 17:30.20 | XorA | ScaredyCat: mostly working |
| 17:33.30 | *** join/#openmoko KenSentMe (n=jeroen@kensentme.xs4all.nl) |
| 17:33.35 | ScaredyCat | good, good... wifi ok ? |
| 17:33.39 | ScaredyCat | stable? |
| 17:33.45 | *** join/#openmoko kdean06 (n=kdean06@fsf/member/kdean06) |
| 17:33.47 | ScaredyCat | even under cpu load? |
| 17:34.33 | XorA | I havent kicked its arse yet :-) |
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| 17:36.47 | ScaredyCat | :) |
| 17:37.31 | ScaredyCat | has the price changed at all with the mods that have happened ? |
| 17:37.38 | ScaredyCat | (end user price) |
| 17:39.24 | XorA | no idea |
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| 17:44.29 | XorA | ScaredyCat: no good talking to me about prices and stuff, I ignore that part of the business |
| 17:45.13 | ScaredyCat | Aren't you the liason ? |
| 17:45.16 | reSpawn | 450$ |
| 17:45.23 | XorA | ScaredyCat: nope, Im OE developet |
| 17:45.30 | XorA | s/pet/per/ |
| 17:45.56 | XorA | ScaredyCat: openmoko-distro is my game :-) |
| 17:46.01 | ScaredyCat | mmmm... I'm sure you were something like that... |
| 17:46.10 | XorA | ScaredyCat: Michael Shiloh is liason |
| 17:46.29 | ScaredyCat | dagnabit! |
| 17:47.13 | XorA | bitbake coffee |
| 17:47.28 | ScaredyCat | -c rebuild |
| 17:47.36 | XorA | ScaredyCat: http://www.openembedded.org/openmoko-hires-developer-devoted-to-openembedded |
| 17:47.46 | wurp2 | Is there a special API I should use to talk to addressbook.db on OM, or is it the normal libebook? |
| 17:48.22 | wurp2 | I prefer to use python or some other scripting interface if possible |
| 17:48.33 | ScaredyCat | !!! |
| 17:48.39 | XorA | wurp2: its normal eds files |
| 17:48.59 | wurp2 | I'm writing something to import sim card contacts into the addressbook |
| 17:49.11 | ScaredyCat | so, was there ever the official announcement? |
| 17:49.42 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: app software shouldn't be written in C |
| 17:49.53 | ScaredyCat | wtf! |
| 17:49.54 | Sup3rkiddo | python pwns perios |
| 17:49.55 | wurp2 | Or, rather, you shouldn't use app software written in C until it's had years to mature |
| 17:49.59 | Sup3rkiddo | *period |
| 17:50.20 | ScaredyCat | perios --- p shaped cherios |
| 17:50.30 | wurp2 | as opposed to oerios |
| 17:50.33 | ScaredyCat | I beg to differ... |
| 17:50.35 | wurp2 | o shaped cheerios |
| 17:50.37 | Vegar | for embedded devices it should be written in C |
| 17:50.42 | ScaredyCat | on the don;t use c ... |
| 17:50.47 | ScaredyCat | pezackly |
| 17:50.57 | wurp2 | I disagree |
| 17:50.57 | Vegar | python is extremely slow compared to C |
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| 17:51.01 | wurp2 | lua may be a better choice |
| 17:51.04 | ScaredyCat | python is for ladyboys anyway |
| 17:51.06 | kdean06 | wurp2, I got the fast charger installed.. The triple confirmation annoys me, but I can charge in my car now. :D |
| 17:51.19 | ScaredyCat | lua isn't muh better, and it's not actually stable |
| 17:51.30 | wurp2 | Vegar: I defy you to find ppl who will care about the speed difference between C and python for importing their contact list, on a 200mhz machine |
| 17:51.33 | Tronic | Vegar: I disagree. IMO C++ should be used for embedded development too. |
| 17:52.01 | ScaredyCat | wurp2: it's not jst speed... it's deps |
| 17:52.01 | wurp2 | kdean06: You mean the quadruple confirmation? |
| 17:52.01 | wurp2 | :-) |
| 17:52.06 | XorA | ScaredyCat: yes, back in october on community list |
| 17:52.08 | Tronic | Python is 16 times slower than C++, so it is usually pretty much out of the question (except maybe for very high level code). |
| 17:52.13 | kdean06 | wurp2, Yeah. |
| 17:52.17 | reSpawn | It may use less CPU processing :P |
| 17:52.26 | _diego_ | speed in 90% is not a problem |
| 17:52.27 | wurp2 | kdean06: I can make that optional |
| 17:52.30 | Vegar | Tronic: I agree on that |
| 17:52.33 | ScaredyCat | XorA: oh, on list... |
| 17:52.43 | wurp2 | I understand not liking it, but I *really* wanted to make sure I'm not responsible for people frying hardware |
| 17:52.52 | Stephmw | High speed isn't important. It's just got to be 'fast enough'. |
| 17:52.59 | Tronic | Vegar: Good, because now you can make a point of C++ development being just as easy as Python development :) |
| 17:52.59 | kdean06 | wurp2, Don't worry about it. |
| 17:53.03 | XorA | ScaredyCat: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-October/010731.html |
| 17:53.06 | mjr | anyway, it should be rather obvious that the best choice of language depends on the particular problem; C (or, heaven forbid, even ++) does have a place with limited devices, but so does python |
| 17:53.07 | wurp2 | Agreeing with Stephmw... |
| 17:53.17 | wurp2 | and _diego_ |
| 17:53.27 | XorA | ScaredyCat: but I was also the guy who wrote the GTA01 audio driver before the project was public |
| 17:53.32 | Stephmw | as for the python bashing... there's already handsets shipping in Taiwan with python as the underlying app language |
| 17:53.38 | _diego_ | i writing simple apps for neo in python and they are already fast enough ^^ |
| 17:53.40 | Tronic | Vegar: Otherwise you would have nothing to say when someone justified the use of Python by reduced development time and increased safety. |
| 17:53.48 | wurp2 | It doesn't matter if it's 16 x slower (although I disagree with that assessment, once pypy is available) |
| 17:53.55 | ScaredyCat | XorA: ahh ok, so you can actually code then :P |
| 17:53.58 | wurp2 | if the end user can't tell any real difference in speed |
| 17:54.03 | XorA | ScaredyCat: allegedly |
| 17:54.07 | ScaredyCat | :) |
| 17:54.08 | Stephmw | wurp2: right |
| 17:54.24 | XorA | ScaredyCat: Im currently kicking OE into freerunner shape |
| 17:54.24 | ScaredyCat | pypy in the skysky |
| 17:54.28 | wurp2 | mjr: I agree completely |
| 17:54.37 | ScaredyCat | excellent... |
| 17:54.54 | wurp2 | I just think that for end user apps, the right choice is almost always java/python/ruby/... |
| 17:55.02 | ScaredyCat | oh god no |
| 17:55.03 | wurp2 | unless a very mature C/C++ alternative is available |
| 17:55.26 | Vegar | what about vala? |
| 17:55.38 | ScaredyCat | wait... so your 1st gen python code is better than anyone elses 1 st gen C ? |
| 17:55.39 | Tronic | wurp2: Strange language grouping you use. |
| 17:55.45 | Stephmw | the point on a handset is that given a suitably good runtime library, no app should be able to crash the handset short of a DoS |
| 17:56.09 | _diego_ | "1st gen"? |
| 17:56.17 | wurp2 | Tronic: Why do you say that? |
| 17:56.35 | Tronic | wurp2: Java and Python are in the opposite ends of the spectrum (C++ being somewhere in the middle), when it comes to strictness. C and C++ have almost nothing in common, when it comes to development style. |
| 17:56.40 | ScaredyCat | _diego_: code just written |
| 17:56.48 | wurp2 | Those are languages that tell you what went wrong when they crash, and virtually never corrupt memory and just go crazy |
| 17:57.04 | wurp2 | and are not vulnerable (in general) to buffer overruns & the like |
| 17:57.26 | wurp2 | Tronic: But python & java both do the same thing when you have bad code or crazy input |
| 17:57.47 | ScaredyCat | http://www.google.com/search?q=python+buffer+overflow&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a |
| 17:58.03 | Tronic | wurp2: Use a few basic coding guidelines (that many just refer as modern C++) and you cannot have memory leaks, buffer overruns or other such issues in C++ either. In C you always get a lot of those, and they are not easily avoidable. |
| 17:58.24 | Stephmw | Tronic: sorry, gotta call you on that |
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| 17:58.34 | ScaredyCat | yeah, I use strcpy all the time ... just for the danger :P |
| 17:58.35 | Stephmw | Tronic: who's going to enforce those guidelines on 3rd-party apps? |
| 17:58.46 | _diego_ | ScaredyCat: btw making mistake in C that causes overflow is much more easy to do in C than in Java or Python |
| 17:58.58 | Tronic | wurp2: In Java all objects are used via pointers, so in that respect it is quite similar to C. |
| 17:59.20 | wurp2 | Tronic: They are not C style pointers, not even close |
| 17:59.29 | _diego_ | Tronic: not at all |
| 17:59.30 | Stephmw | Tronic: no they're not |
| 17:59.37 | wurp2 | heh |
| 17:59.39 | Vegar | _diego_: those errors are easy to avoid if you use common sense and know what you're doing |
| 17:59.40 | ScaredyCat | I agree _diego_, but that's down to the developer and the methods they use.. not the language |
| 17:59.44 | Tronic | wurp2: The only difference to C is that you don't have pointer arithmetics in Java. |
| 17:59.49 | Tronic | wurp2: And the syntax is nicer... |
| 17:59.57 | wurp2 | and null pointers don't just flake out |
| 18:00.03 | wurp2 | and you can't delete something twice |
| 18:00.07 | Stephmw | Tronic: if you think Java references are pointers you clearly haven't done enough Java |
| 18:00.10 | XorA | C++ can implement safe pointers in same style as java quite easilly |
| 18:00.16 | wurp2 | and you can't use an uninitialized pointer |
| 18:00.18 | ScaredyCat | in that case we need visual basic on the neo.... |
| 18:00.23 | Tronic | The use of a NULL pointer in C very reliably crashes the program on any modern CPU. |
| 18:00.27 | wurp2 | and the lack of pointer arithmetic is a Big Deal |
| 18:00.34 | Stephmw | XorA: agreed - my point is that it's impossible to force 3rd-parties to follow those rules |
| 18:00.36 | Tronic | In Java you get NullPointerException. |
| 18:00.38 | _diego_ | ScaredyCat: i've worked with a lot of developer, and happens to meet people that don't use pointer couse they are difficult to understand |
| 18:00.43 | XorA | Stephmw: look under the bonnet, Java stores its Reference as a void * pointing at an array that starts with the length of the array :-) |
| 18:00.44 | Tronic | Not much difference. |
| 18:00.45 | Stephmw | XorA: once you let them go native, the box is theirs |
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| 18:00.52 | Stephmw | XorA: it's VM dependent |
| 18:01.01 | wurp2 | Tronic: That is a vast difference |
| 18:01.02 | ScaredyCat | _diego_: huh... they're not that difficult.... |
| 18:01.04 | Stephmw | XorA: they're handles to a structure, sure, but not pointers |
| 18:01.10 | ubuntufreak | where can i get the openmoko logo and fonts for download |
| 18:01.11 | wurp2 | In C, it is common to write to the wrong place in memory |
| 18:01.12 | Tronic | Stephmw: Even the creators of Java call them pointers. |
| 18:01.16 | ScaredyCat | they might need explaining, but it's not difficult |
| 18:01.17 | _diego_ | ScaredyCat: so it's a problem of developer AND of language |
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| 18:01.18 | wurp2 | In Java, it is virtually impossible |
| 18:01.23 | Stephmw | Tronic: and it's still wrong |
| 18:01.31 | Tronic | Stephmw: And they essentially are pointers (memory addresses). |
| 18:02.01 | ScaredyCat | wurp2: wtf? |
| 18:02.03 | Tronic | The behavior exactly matches that of C pointers, except that there are no stars and no arrays (pointer arithmetic). |
| 18:02.08 | Stephmw | Tronic: not the ones you see in Java... hashCode is most definitely *not* a pointer |
| 18:02.20 | _diego_ | Tronic: they are not memory addresses, have u heard about Garbage collection? |
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| 18:02.47 | Tronic | _diego_: Have you heard that GC can be use with C or C++ too? But how is this relevant? |
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| 18:03.07 | Tronic | Stephmw: How come? |
| 18:03.08 | XorA | anyway is time for me food |
| 18:03.09 | Stephmw | XorA: do you see what I mean about enforcement though? |
| 18:03.46 | Stephmw | Tronic: having worked on embedded VMs I'm basing my arguments on working experience |
| 18:03.51 | Tronic | _diego_: Look up Boehm GC (there are others as well). |
| 18:03.54 | Stephmw | Tronic: but you're welcome to your opinions |
| 18:04.02 | wurp2 | In C, when you have a buffer overflow (which is easy to do; just forget to validate one argument, or do it improperly), you have a security risk |
| 18:04.02 | _diego_ | yes, if they are pointer to a memory address they should be changed every time a gc happens, but this not happens couse they are just id |
| 18:04.15 | wurp2 | In Java, you have an exception with a stack trace pointing you to the error |
| 18:04.26 | XorA|gone | Stephmw: yes, I got no problems with Neo programs in type safe languages, its certainly sensible these days |
| 18:04.27 | Tronic | Stephmw: Does the Java object variable not contain a memory address of an object (even if a virtual address)? |
| 18:04.33 | wurp2 | I have actually done Java development professionally for about 7 years |
| 18:04.35 | _diego_ | that's the reason you can't even think to do aritmetics on it |
| 18:04.37 | ScaredyCat | wurp2: that makes you bad at coding C nothing more |
| 18:04.41 | Stephmw | Tronic: nothing accessible from Java |
| 18:04.41 | XorA|gone | Stephmw: we have a 500Mhz PC class machine, not a 7Mhz Amiga |
| 18:04.41 | wurp2 | and C/C++ dev professionally for the 6 years prior |
| 18:04.50 | Stephmw | XorA|gone: :) |
| 18:05.03 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: Totally wrong. |
| 18:05.04 | Stephmw | Tronic: the VM hides all this |
| 18:05.11 | Tronic | Stephmw: Yes, I just stated that pointer arithmetics are not available in Java. That doesn't change the basic principle. |
| 18:05.17 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: If that were true, we would never find buffer overflows in big name apps |
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| 18:05.43 | Stephmw | Tronic: in any case, the 4-byte handle you refer to isn't a direct pointer in most VMs, it's a handle to a hash |
| 18:05.49 | Tronic | wurp2: I can tell that it was C/C++ and not C and C++ :P |
| 18:06.05 | wurp2 | I dunno what you mean |
| 18:06.14 | wurp2 | Sometimes it was pure C |
| 18:06.20 | wurp2 | sometimes pure C++ |
| 18:06.22 | wurp2 | sometimes a mix |
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| 18:06.32 | Tronic | wurp2: C/C++ being something that is not modern C++, but rather C-like code that just uses classes. |
| 18:06.40 | wurp2 | as XorA said, it depends on the project |
| 18:06.40 | bipolar | Why did the topic get changed to an April release? I don't see any changes in the Community Updates page. |
| 18:07.05 | wurp2 | bipolar: Some people in here thought March was very unlikely |
| 18:07.09 | wurp2 | Others of us are less sure |
| 18:07.25 | bipolar | wurp2: ic |
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| 18:07.57 | _diego_ | bipolar: i think, if exit in march everyone is happy, if in april nobody complains :) |
| 18:08.13 | bipolar | hah |
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| 18:09.13 | Vegar | bipolar: the community updates page doesn't mention March either |
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| 18:10.26 | ScaredyCat | wurp2: huh? |
| 18:10.46 | ScaredyCat | bad practice is bad practice... |
| 18:11.28 | ScaredyCat | march is very soon |
| 18:12.25 | RedDog | is the build of openmoko-tasks2 only on my system broken or does anybody also have problems with it? |
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| 18:19.15 | ScaredyCat | have you updated recently RedDog? |
| 18:19.51 | RedDog | i run make update; make setup; make openmoko-deve-image |
| 18:19.53 | RedDog | +l |
| 18:20.06 | RedDog | and this broken build is there for some days allready ... |
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| 18:20.22 | ScaredyCat | just going to try here... |
| 18:20.37 | ScaredyCat | mm... mine built the othe ay ok |
| 18:20.57 | ScaredyCat | s/othe ay ok/other day ok/ |
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| 18:22.58 | RedDog | ScaredyCat: are you using openembedded or openmokos mtn tree? |
| 18:23.33 | ScaredyCat | oe |
| 18:23.57 | RedDog | okay, than i will give it a try :D |
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| 18:30.09 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: I agree that bad practice is bad practice. It is also true that if you can systematically eliminate the possibility of a bad practice altogether, that's a big gain. |
| 18:30.35 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: It doesn't fix any buffer overflows to say "oh, the people who do that are just all bad coders" |
| 18:31.20 | wurp2 | Switching to a platform in which buffer overflows are impossible demonstrably DOES fix buffer overflows |
| 18:33.02 | ScaredyCat | yes, but pyhton isn't imume to buffer overflows... |
| 18:33.07 | ScaredyCat | imune |
| 18:33.10 | ScaredyCat | immune |
| 18:33.13 | ScaredyCat | mm... |
| 18:33.18 | xcasex | mmm... |
| 18:33.39 | xcasex | and the first one that thinks python apps are good for a phone, will be taken out back and shot by me personally. |
| 18:33.45 | Stephmw | shall we throw in the term 'resilient' in there? |
| 18:33.45 | xcasex | we dont need java 2.0 |
| 18:33.52 | ScaredyCat | ~spel chicken |
| 18:33.55 | ScaredyCat | ~spell chicken |
| 18:34.02 | Stephmw | xcasex: why bother suggesting it? it's an accomplished fact |
| 18:34.05 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: it isn't? |
| 18:34.05 | ScaredyCat | ~spell immune |
| 18:34.16 | wurp2 | xcasex: python apps are fine for a phone, depending on the app |
| 18:35.06 | xcasex | so python gained resilience and reliability. interesting. we had some awesome issues with the reliability part when writing eve. |
| 18:35.07 | ScaredyCat | wurp2: http://www.google.com/search?q=python+buffer+overflow |
| 18:35.24 | xcasex | still do. |
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| 18:36.37 | Stephmw | we're talking about the game here, right? |
| 18:36.41 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: Right. Python, the VM, has buffer overflows in it |
| 18:36.46 | wurp2 | Because it's written in C |
| 18:36.53 | xcasex | Stephmw, yeah. |
| 18:37.06 | wurp2 | But it is one app, that when fixed, fixes that buffer overflow in all python apps |
| 18:37.08 | xcasex | wurp2, inheritance is a bitch, i agree |
| 18:37.38 | Stephmw | xcasex: I didn't realise any part of it used python - is it all in it, or a subsection? |
| 18:37.42 | wurp2 | xcasex: whoosh |
| 18:37.51 | wurp2 | I didn't understand that remark :-) |
| 18:37.59 | xcasex | Stephmw, stackless python, the whole dang client. |
| 18:38.10 | wurp2 | stackless python? |
| 18:38.18 | ScaredyCat | wurp2: so python still suffers... |
| 18:38.22 | wurp2 | Does that mean what it sounds like it means? I don't see how it could... |
| 18:38.29 | xcasex | yes. |
| 18:38.49 | xcasex | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stackless_Python |
| 18:39.01 | ScaredyCat | 37 bb's left RedDog |
| 18:39.01 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: That's like saying because .01% of the time the safety fails and people shoot themselves with the safety on, that safeties are bad |
| 18:39.37 | RedDog | ScaredyCat: 328/1.180 certs |
| 18:39.39 | ScaredyCat | no... it's like saying 'Python never suffers from buffer overflows" |
| 18:39.43 | wurp2 | OK, it's not stackless; it just implements its own stack |
| 18:40.06 | Stephmw | xcasex: that's an interesting choice - I wish I had more info to give you on phones based on python |
| 18:40.08 | ScaredyCat | there's quite a few updates RedDog |
| 18:40.24 | Stephmw | xcasex: I would imagine that to start with they're less complex than a game ;) |
| 18:40.42 | Stephmw | (the apps individually that is) |
| 18:40.49 | xcasex | and yet, the need for reliability is far greater Stephmw |
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| 18:41.22 | xcasex | and i wouldnt buy a phone that touted that core functionality was implemented in python. |
| 18:41.29 | xcasex | s/in/with |
| 18:41.36 | Stephmw | xcasex: this is one I was thinking of, http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5617889988.html |
| 18:41.43 | ScaredyCat | I would... if I could ter it out :_ |
| 18:41.46 | ScaredyCat | tear |
| 18:41.59 | Stephmw | xcasex: I'm a J2ME guy, can you break down the lack of reliability? |
| 18:42.03 | Stephmw | (in python) |
| 18:42.26 | wurp2 | It sounds to me as if the python implementation they chose is not broadly enough used to have been made reliable yet |
| 18:43.27 | xcasex | wurp2, yes because 23/7 (hour down due to backup of sql cluster) uptime with 27k concurrent users isnt a broad enough crowd. |
| 18:43.31 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: My point is that there is a huge, categorical difference between the frequency of buffer overflows impacting python & java versus a C app |
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| 18:44.27 | wurp2 | xcasex: The userbase that matters for the reliability of a VM/compiler implementation is the # of devs working on it & reporting bugs, not the # of people running programs on it |
| 18:44.59 | xcasex | Stephmw, you dont want to peg the cpu with an interpreted language, jit is fine since its bytecode in one way or the other (although i wouldnt recommend it); this is all imho btw, but. i want reliability which means resources for the sw to do its job. |
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| 18:45.09 | xcasex | wurp2, what do you think #users gives #devs |
| 18:45.15 | xcasex | bugreports. |
| 18:45.28 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: and furthermore, over time the python & java VM/compiler will get get more reliable, whereas each C program mostly starts from the same unreliable starting place |
| 18:45.48 | xcasex | what is this? invasion of the non-comprehension? |
| 18:46.05 | wurp2 | xcasex: So your users give you bug reports that indicate how the VM failed, then you guys go fix it? |
| 18:46.11 | Stephmw | xcasex: ok, I'll have to accept those for python. |
| 18:46.15 | wurp2 | I don't understand how it can still be unreliable, then. |
| 18:46.50 | xcasex | wurp2, correct. we ship it with debugging enabled and a debugging tool. so yes. heh. heavy information density in those bug reports. |
| 18:47.48 | Stephmw | xcasex: the VMs I've worked on have always been on RTOS, so they couldn't DoS the phone's CPU |
| 18:48.08 | Stephmw | xcasex: the watchdog would just cycle the app if it was a system one, or just kill it if it was 3rd-party |
| 18:49.12 | wurp2 | xcasex: Are your reliability problems in your python code, or in the VM? |
| 18:49.56 | xcasex | Stephmw, python is dog slow on a p3 400; why would it fare better on a 200mhz risc (ironically risc is a misnomer nowadays) |
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| 18:50.05 | xcasex | wurp2, hahaha. are you arguing for the sake of it? |
| 18:50.25 | wurp2 | ?? |
| 18:50.36 | _diego_ | xcasex: depends in what are you doing |
| 18:50.36 | wurp2 | I was asking you a question... |
| 18:50.48 | wurp2 | So I could understand the problem. |
| 18:51.18 | _diego_ | for handling a gui on 200Mhz cpu is enough (libraries are written i C) |
| 18:51.22 | Stephmw | xcasex: nowdays on current 200MHz arm cores, the display hw is usually the bottleneck with java apps... but considering non-speed critical apps like media/video/audio (that can be done with native apis), UI interaction only needs to be fast enough anyway |
| 18:51.36 | wurp2 | Generally I find it better to take a position based on information, rather than unfounded assertion |
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| 18:51.51 | xcasex | wurp2, the problem is always in the code, wherever it is. vm, server, client etc. |
| 18:52.02 | Stephmw | xcasex: ... ok, I forgot a 'not' in there ;) |
| 18:52.02 | xcasex | fix one bug, open up another. |
| 18:52.07 | Stephmw | xcasex: you get the idea |
| 18:52.12 | xcasex | Stephmw, im aware of this :) |
| 18:52.48 | wurp2 | xcasex: But if your argument is that "python is unreliable" |
| 18:53.14 | wurp2 | it matters whether your reliability issues are in the python code or in the VM |
| 18:53.27 | wurp2 | and whether the VM is a mainstream one or a sideline |
| 18:53.37 | xcasex | wurp2, my argument is i'd rather trust java. full blown java. before i see python. |
| 18:53.49 | xcasex | hell. tomcat the phone. |
| 18:53.56 | _diego_ | why? |
| 18:54.07 | wurp2 | Java is very reliable |
| 18:54.18 | wurp2 | I would absolutely trust java |
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| 18:54.29 | wurp2 | I wouldn't run it on a phone right now, because the memory requirements are way too high |
| 18:54.36 | pjz | anyone know if GTA02 is going to have EDGE? I presume zero chance of it doing 3G. |
| 18:54.48 | wurp2 | pjz: No EDGE |
| 18:54.49 | xcasex | and those mem requirements equally apply to interpreted languages. |
| 18:54.51 | xcasex | pjz, no. |
| 18:54.54 | wurp2 | pjz: Wifi + gprs |
| 18:55.04 | _diego_ | xcasex: no |
| 18:55.05 | Stephmw | wurp2: which java? ME or SE? |
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| 18:55.13 | wurp2 | xcasex: Not true. Different interpreted languages have very different memory characteristics |
| 18:55.26 | xcasex | so. why python and no boo or lua? |
| 18:55.27 | wurp2 | Stephmw: Sorry; I don't know much about J2ME |
| 18:55.27 | _diego_ | different language have different memory requirement |
| 18:55.36 | xcasex | _diego_, also true. |
| 18:55.37 | XorA|gone | hmm, I ran java on an 8 bit uC with only 4k of RAM, java isnt that bad :-) |
| 18:55.48 | xcasex | XorA|gone, hehehehe |
| 18:55.52 | wurp2 | I would tend to trust j2me's reliability a lot less, since I thought it gets a custom implementation on each platform |
| 18:55.54 | pjz | XorA|gone: for some value of 'java' |
| 18:55.56 | Stephmw | wurp2: average config is for a 2MB heap max, 512KB min |
| 18:56.01 | wurp2 | s/custom/basically custom/ |
| 18:56.37 | xcasex | s/hehehehe/testing this fly shit out/ |
| 18:56.39 | Stephmw | wurp2: that last point is definitely true... the JSRs for J2ME have too many optional aspects and the wording is woolly |
| 18:56.44 | xcasex | oh nice. |
| 18:56.52 | xcasex | Stephmw, i bet. |
| 18:56.53 | Stephmw | wurp2: *but* |
| 18:57.19 | Stephmw | wurp2: the testing done is very thorough, the TCKs aren't just glanced at :) |
| 18:57.26 | Stephmw | wurp2: but tests can be contested |
| 18:57.51 | _diego_ | probably tcl/tk, have lower memory requirement... :) |
| 18:57.58 | xcasex | Stephmw, is the j2me certs as rigid as the j2ee? |
| 18:58.07 | _diego_ | even of C/gtk apps |
| 18:58.09 | XorA|gone | javacard TCK was a bitch to pass |
| 18:58.09 | Stephmw | xcasex: for developers? more so |
| 18:58.20 | xcasex | Stephmw, interesting. |
| 18:58.33 | Stephmw | xcasex: for VM implementors... it's probably similar and more rigorous |
| 18:58.58 | Stephmw | xcasex: the dev cert requires knowing a fuckload of JSRs intimately |
| 18:59.00 | xcasex | Stephmw, which was what i presumed. |
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| 19:00.36 | Stephmw | xcasex: it's a shame really... I could write a blog fulltime after having worked... where I have worked... but I'd be in breach of the various NDAs :( |
| 19:00.53 | Stephmw | xcasex: even the TCKs have em |
| 19:02.36 | xcasex | wurp2, i still -- despite the pm you sent -- consider python to be a bad idea for the freerunner. especially because it is python. although using python to test embedded firmware etc. is all well and fine. or if you're doing something similar to the XO |
| 19:02.59 | xcasex | but hell if we're so keen on python, Rewrite the kernel in it. |
| 19:03.14 | _diego_ | python is bad becouse is python?? Do u call it an explanation |
| 19:03.36 | Stephmw | xcasex: oh god no, not a typesafe kernel... I've seen that done in Java |
| 19:03.45 | xcasex | Stephmw, oh. i know. i was about to headbutt Erikssons j2ee group when they presented glassfish at osscon in stockholm. |
| 19:03.46 | Stephmw | xcasex: it's a nice research idea, but totally unworkable ;) |
| 19:04.05 | _diego_ | so, your argoument, i'm right becuase i'm xcasex? :D |
| 19:04.12 | xcasex | _diego_, python is bad, for a resource sparse system, because it is a interpreted language. |
| 19:04.22 | xcasex | _diego_, yes. normally i'd settle for that ;) |
| 19:04.37 | _diego_ | 128M are a LOOOOT of ram :) |
| 19:04.56 | wurp2 | xcasex: I don't understand why you are flipping to this extreme straw man argument |
| 19:05.02 | xcasex | but doing voip service bridges for telecom services is far more interesting ;) |
| 19:05.03 | _diego_ | really, i've written apps running on 32Mb |
| 19:05.05 | wurp2 | and I agree with _diego_ |
| 19:05.06 | xcasex | wurp2, tssk. |
| 19:05.33 | xcasex | 128mb is a lot of ram. i agree. but then you have to factor in system requirements, overhead etc. |
| 19:05.36 | wurp2 | I am proposing that python is good for end user apps |
| 19:05.43 | wurp2 | which it is |
| 19:05.47 | xcasex | oh i agree. |
| 19:05.52 | xcasex | but not on a phone. |
| 19:05.58 | wurp2 | not that it is good for kernel, or device drivers, or any other straw man you happen to come up with |
| 19:06.00 | edistar_ | a lot of people will be able to script their programs in python.. |
| 19:06.05 | wurp2 | 5 years ago, absolutely not on a phone |
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| 19:06.13 | wurp2 | today, yes on a phone |
| 19:06.29 | _diego_ | and what about Commodor Vic20, have an interpreted language and 4k or ram |
| 19:06.48 | _diego_ | s/or/of/ |
| 19:06.52 | wurp2 | I wrote assembler code on C64, because it ran at 4khz and had 64 k of ram |
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| 19:07.00 | edistar_ | I think python is suitable for the neo, it has enough resources |
| 19:07.25 | wurp2 | the neo runs 50,000 times faster and has 16000 times more ram |
| 19:07.28 | xcasex | edistar_, a bit offtopic, yellowtab edistar? |
| 19:07.47 | xcasex | wurp2, i'm arguing reliability and resilience. |
| 19:08.10 | wurp2 | A minute ago you were arguing "not for a phone" |
| 19:08.16 | _diego_ | xcasex: _diego_, python is bad, for a resource sparse system, because |
| 19:08.17 | _diego_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:08.18 | xcasex | guarantee a uptime that a normal closed source proprietary app has. -- jokes aside -- and i'll buy the argument |
| 19:08.23 | wurp2 | Is there some way reliability and resilience in python suffer when it's running on a phone? |
| 19:08.33 | xcasex | _diego_, that is part of the argument. |
| 19:09.14 | xcasex | wurp2, yes. |
| 19:09.17 | xcasex | in short. |
| 19:09.23 | _diego_ | hahahaha |
| 19:09.41 | wurp2 | xcasex: Very short - an assertion with no data or logic listed to back it up. |
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| 19:10.02 | xcasex | wurp2, well then. show me a python app that doesnt crash, and i'll buy the argument ;D |
| 19:10.22 | wurp2 | my website at www.moochmuch.com |
| 19:10.35 | wurp2 | my fast charge checking daemon on the neo |
| 19:10.45 | wurp2 | zope servers |
| 19:11.08 | wurp2 | I assume by "doesn't crash" you mean "crashes more frequently than a similar C app" |
| 19:11.08 | xcasex | website software on a server. with gobs of ram? |
| 19:11.11 | xcasex | ... |
| 19:11.14 | xcasex | yes. |
| 19:11.25 | wurp2 | although honestly I can't think of a time any of those have crashed period |
| 19:11.51 | wurp2 | The fast charge checker is running on the neo |
| 19:12.08 | wurp2 | although, quite frankly, that's one that I think would benefit from being ported to C |
| 19:12.12 | wurp2 | since it stays resident |
| 19:12.29 | wurp2 | but, it doesn't crash, or hasn't in the week or so I've been running it |
| 19:12.29 | xcasex | bah. |
| 19:12.48 | wurp2 | xcasex: very eloquent |
| 19:13.24 | xcasex | rewrite the call manager in python, its more complex than an app polling /proc. |
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| 19:13.56 | Valax | neat |
| 19:14.08 | wurp2 | You keep making assertions with nothing to back them up, then responding with sidesteps when I back up mine. |
| 19:14.29 | RedDog | is the gta01 suspend2ram now stable with fix-i2c-s3c2410-resume-race.patch? |
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| 19:14.55 | wurp2 | RedDog: Everything I've heard indicates it is, although some people don't have their phone wake when they receive calls |
| 19:15.21 | wurp2 | I am not using it yet |
| 19:15.22 | RedDog | hmm ... sounds good! ;) |
| 19:16.34 | xcasex | wurp2, back it up, with more words you mean. look. let the code talk instead. |
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| 19:16.42 | wurp2 | I did |
| 19:16.53 | wurp2 | You asked for any reliable python apps |
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| 19:17.22 | wurp2 | I listed three examples, two of which I wrote, one of them running on the neo |
| 19:17.35 | wurp2 | It is a relatively simple app, but that shouldn't make much difference, since it runs 24/7, if python is inherently unreliable on the neo |
| 19:20.36 | xcasex | wurp2, the stack heap of the vm isnt constant is it? so more complexity larger segments of code, larger heap, more ram in use, and resource scarcity isnt something you look for in a embedded device. right? |
| 19:20.36 | wurp2 | I'm going to stop spamming people with arguments the either will not change their mind about, or don't care, or both, so you won't hear any more about java vs python vs C vs whatever from me here today :-) |
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| 19:20.46 | xcasex | oh hehehe thanks :) |
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| 19:21.38 | wurp2 | s/ the ei/they ei/ |
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| 19:30.42 | ScaredyCat | RedDog: NOTE: build 200802261828: completed |
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| 19:33.10 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: Dammit, I thought you were saying that there's a new daily build available |
| 19:33.32 | kdean06 | wurp2, There will be one tonight. |
| 19:33.40 | kdean06 | Or... Tomorrow, depednign on your time zone. |
| 19:33.45 | wurp2 | Yay!! |
| 19:33.55 | kdean06 | The guy who does the builds has been at FOSDEM. |
| 19:33.58 | wurp2 | GMT-6 for me |
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| 19:36.37 | ScaredyCat | wurp2: my build will be up in 10 mins or so... |
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| 19:38.12 | *** topic/#openmoko by StealthCP -> Welcome to the OpenMoko support and discussion channel! | http://openmoko.org/ | New version is the FreeRunner (with WiFi...) maybe due April | Official status: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates |
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| 19:51.41 | ScaredyCat | wtf is avahi doing on here! |
| 19:52.25 | XorA|gone | whats wrong with avahi |
| 19:52.43 | ScaredyCat | how about its complete lack of security |
| 19:56.44 | ScaredyCat | fewd! |
| 19:59.52 | RedDog | ScaredyCat: mine had an error... did make force-rebuild, now i takes times :-( |
| 20:00.33 | wurp2 | For future reference, it looks as if the right way to manipulate the addressbook on OM is dbus (answering my own question from earlier) |
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| 20:02.14 | ScaredyCat | you'd better use a shell script to avoid buffer overflows :P |
| 20:02.36 | wurp2 | gonna :-) |
| 20:02.40 | wurp2 | not shell script |
| 20:02.42 | wurp2 | python |
| 20:02.52 | ScaredyCat | RedDog: hrrm.. I'm runing mine on my phone |
| 20:04.21 | RedDog | ScaredyCat: seems that you have a faster pc ... |
| 20:06.29 | *** part/#openmoko underseacat5 (n=chatzill@pool-72-76-148-147.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 20:07.50 | ScaredyCat | I just rebuild a lot |
| 20:08.02 | ScaredyCat | rather than once a day |
| 20:09.07 | ScaredyCat | seems that werner's patch to remove aux from stating up from a suspend breaks the recovery completely |
| 20:09.25 | RedDog | my build i broken for about one week, now he rebuilds all ... |
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| 20:10.14 | RedDog | ScaredyCat: wich reconvery, hope you don't mean the resume from suspend... |
| 20:10.46 | ScaredyCat | i do |
| 20:12.59 | RedDog | $§")/&§$% ... |
| 20:13.06 | wurp2 | Sounds like another build not to install... |
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| 20:17.31 | RedDog | ScaredyCat: but why? only "enable_irq_wake(irq_aux);" is removed... |
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| 20:31.06 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: Is it possible you are having some other spurious issue with resume from suspend? |
| 20:32.25 | ScaredyCat | well, I can't get it to wake up any other way |
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| 20:33.35 | wurp2 | ScaredyCat: oic |
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| 22:03.24 | subtwo | i've been playing around with getting sidplay to run on openmoko and it's working good - however, what audio device is best to use (it defaults to /dev/dsp - but when starting sidplay from terminal I get a device busy!??) Any ideas? |
| 22:04.34 | abraxa_ | subtwo: Does sidplay support PulseAudio output? |
| 22:06.02 | abraxa_ | If not then it's either using pasuspend (if available already), killing PulseAudio and using ALSA (not good) or using the PulseAudio ALSA wrapper (eats performance) |
| 22:06.05 | subtwo | well, I am no audio guru by any means and have just begun digging, but I guess that the /dev/dsp device is enough for it. It works if you start playing through an ssh session... |
| 22:06.47 | abraxa_ | It works then because PulseAudio frees /dev/dsp after about 20 seconds of not playing - it does however play the touchscreen click sound, so if you use the touchscreen to run it, /dev/dsp will be occupied |
| 22:07.54 | subtwo | Yes, I already though of this, and removed the touchscreen sound from /etc/pulse/session - but still same result... Does it allocate the audio device even though no sound is played? |
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| 22:09.27 | abraxa_ | It shouldn't. Did you restart PulseAudio after the config change? |
| 22:09.37 | subtwo | I even rebooted... |
| 22:10.14 | subtwo | Maybe I was too quick to try it after the startup sound though... |
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| 22:12.07 | abraxa_ | Seeing how the last release of sidplay was in 2004 it doesn't seem like we'll get PA support... |
| 22:13.56 | subtwo | No, what is actually needed to add support for PA? |
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| 22:16.03 | abraxa_ | subtwo: Well, the audio playback mechanism would have to be changed to use PA instead of OSS |
| 22:16.34 | abraxa_ | Also, there's a sid plugin for gstreamer which you might want to try out, too - the Media Player should be able to play back sid files with it installed |
| 22:16.52 | subtwo | Strangely, it does not still run from the terminal on the hardware but very well from an ssh session |
| 22:17.11 | mjr | does pulseaudio still hog cpu like crazy in recent builds, btw? |
| 22:17.20 | subtwo | I'll check out the sid plugin for gstreamer - it is probably the best bet |
| 22:17.21 | abraxa_ | mjr: Nope |
| 22:17.46 | subtwo | When I start sidplay through ssh it eats about 10% of CPU time to play |
| 22:17.49 | abraxa_ | mjr: A nice little find by someone I don't remember dropped usage quite a bit with a simple usleep()... |
| 22:18.24 | mjr | abraxa_, ack. Sounds ... dirty, but if it works for now... |
| 22:19.14 | subtwo | abraxa_: how can I use the PA ALSA wrapper? |
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| 22:20.53 | abraxa_ | subtwo: Well, I said that assuming that sidplay supports both ALSA and OSS. I'm not sure if it does so if it only supports OSS then that won't work, unfortunately. If you feel like trying: http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/PerfectSetup#ALSAApplications |
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| 22:21.43 | subtwo | abraxa_: thanks, you're probably right. I will check it out. |
| 22:22.21 | abraxa_ | subtwo: There's also an OSS wrapper, though I'm not sure it's included in the OM images: http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/PerfectSetup#OSSApplications |
| 22:26.15 | subtwo | abraxa_: thanks, I'll check it out. I'm after a simple "dirty" solution for now. I'm going to do a small presentation of the OpenMoko and would like to show how to build some simple library and application (libsidplay and sidplayer) and run it from the terminal. |
| 22:26.42 | abraxa_ | Ahh nice =) |
| 22:26.48 | abraxa_ | Let us know how that goes, please |
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| 22:28.52 | subtwo | Yes, sure will. I will probably just kill the PA and see if that helps. |
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| 22:28.56 | CIA-16 | freesmartphone.org: 03emdete * r80 10/trunk/software/pyneog/ (10 files in 3 dirs): first drop of the pyneo-gui seen at the fosdem |
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| 22:31.33 | subtwo | abraxa_: It seems like the interest in OpenMoko is quite high, but nobody really have any real life experience with it. I think from an educational point of view it is the perfect lab-board for trying out embedded programming. |
| 22:32.07 | subtwo | abraxa_: The FIC hardware that is... |
| 22:33.10 | seal20 | g'night all ! |
| 22:36.34 | abraxa_ | subtwo: It might be, though it already is abstracted a lot and behaves just like any other linux system anyway :) |
| 22:37.45 | subtwo | abraxa_: Well, it is not necessary to run linux ;-) |
| 22:37.55 | abraxa_ | True |
| 22:42.25 | subtwo | abraxa_: Thanks for the tips about PA. I think I will settle for killing the PA daemon altogether it is working like expected. |
| 22:42.56 | abraxa_ | Alrighty. Good luck with your endaevors! |
| 22:43.51 | subtwo | Thanks! |
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| 22:48.38 | CIA-16 | freesmartphone.org: 03emdete * r81 10/trunk/software/pyneog/INSTALL: hint to deinstall moko-gtk apps added |
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| 23:52.53 | d4h | topic |
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