IRC log for #openmoko on 20080130

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02:17.09billtangmay i ask how many people have neo1973 in here?
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02:22.56mjrThe channel has 300 people. What do you expect, hundreds of "yeah I do"s?
02:23.25mjrs/expect/want/, perhaps
02:24.14TronicI don't :P
02:24.21TronicWaiting for GTA03, I guess.
02:25.27mjrwaiting long then, since it seems likely there'll be no such thing
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02:31.31TronicThen what is the next step after GTA02?
02:31.47ljpi have 4
02:31.48*** join/#openmoko raster (n=raster@169.222.11.226)
02:31.51mjrsomething else, one presumes
02:32.45mjrafaik they've always referred to Neo1973 revisions
02:32.50TronicAnyway, I am waiting for HSPA and proper software (voice recognition and all those other things that make the phone more usable) before getting one.
02:33.18mjrThe first I get, the latter I don't. But have fun waiting.
02:33.53TronicWhat do you mean? You don't see the use for voice recognition?
02:34.35mjrI don't see why one would spesifically wait for a frill like that
02:35.51TronicI am quite happy with my current Nokia phone (N72), and also the one that I had before this one (6230, that now serves as a backup), so I am in no hurry to get another phone.
02:36.15TronicVoice recognition is probably the feature that I use the most, maybe after the answer call button.
02:36.35TronicIt's much easier just to say the name of the person you want to dial, instead of browsing the address book.
02:36.56mjrif you don't really want a free phone, I'm sure Nokia will think of something else "must-have" to keep you tied in that's difficult for a free system to implement
02:37.18TronicI never got into that free software religion.
02:37.46mjrI never got into that condescending manner of putting things down as "religions" when they aren't
02:37.47rasterthen the neo is defninitely not for you
02:37.52rasterits barely usable as a phone
02:37.59TronicI want the best one, no matter if it is free or not. The free ones tend to get better quite quicly, so that's why I often end up using them.
02:38.22Tronicraster: I know, but I believe that it will be good.
02:38.55mjrRighto, good to know you're uninteresting then.
02:38.55Tronicmjr: RMS worship then? ;)
02:39.15rasterTronic: u'll be waiting a long time. software-wise it is still in its infancy
02:39.40rasterTronic: an open pone is not about GPL and religoion and rms worship
02:39.41Tronicraster: I have a few years at least, before getting another phone.
02:39.53rasterits aboutr technical peopl ebeing ABLE to do with a device they bought - what they want
02:40.07rasterwithout the manufacturer saynig "ooooh - you can't do that because we just won't let you!"
02:40.26TronicI would expect the development to speed up rapidly as the phone goes mass market (like has happened with Symbian, even though it is a PITA to develop for it).
02:40.35rasterit hasw happened too many times that you are shoe-horned into either having to use a language and api set they vendor defines
02:40.45rastereven if you dont like it - you are forced to use it
02:40.48rasterOR
02:41.13Tronicljp: I wonder what will happen to Qtopia now that Nokia bought Trolltech.
02:41.15rasterthey simply dont let you do a chunk of things - the device can do. it does it in the proprietary parts of the phone, but does not make it available to you (eg GPS unit)
02:41.26rasteropenmoko is about removing all those barriers
02:41.33ljpTronic: nothing. it will be the same as it always was
02:41.45mjrthat's actually what I suspect will happen to qtopia
02:41.46Tronicljp: They could put more effort into it as well.
02:41.51rasterallowing developers ultimate freedoms to make their device do just what they wanted - the only limits literally being "hardware literally can't do that - sorry"
02:41.54mjrit will remain as it is :]
02:41.57ljpmjr: just pointing out a better alternative
02:42.31Tronicraster: Symbian gets quite close to that.
02:42.43ljpheh symbian is as closed as closed can be
02:42.44mjrexcept it doesn't really
02:43.00TronicYou can make the phone do pretty much everything you want with Symbian software.
02:43.09mjrwow, ljp has a sane view of something
02:43.22ljp:) because i been assimlated by borg
02:43.25TronicSure it still is closed as hell, but raster was speaking of making the phone do things, not about it being open.
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02:44.17ljpi cant fix hardware drivers on symbian
02:44.39Tronicljp: Are there problems with the hardware drivers on Nokia phones? I haven't noticed any.
02:44.45mjryes :]
02:44.46ljpopenness allows that kind of lower level tinkering
02:45.16Tronicljp: Can you still access the GSM or GPS module firmwares on Neo?
02:45.37rasterTronic: but symbian itself is a nightmare to code for - have u seen their posix/libc implementation?
02:45.53Tronicljp: There will always be a layer that you can't access. A hardware driver should be fairly easy to get right and once it works, there is absolutely no reason to go tinkering with it.
02:46.03ljpi doubt you'll ever be able to access the GSM firmware on any phone due to regulations
02:46.10rasterTronic: as for do what i want
02:46.10mjrno, but that's a disingenious argument - "Neo isn't fully open so nyah, doesn't matter that Symbian has much more closed stuff"
02:46.18rasterwhat if the phonebook is missing some feature i want
02:46.21rasterhow ill i add it?
02:46.23rasteri can't
02:46.26rasterno soruce
02:46.30rasteri need to entirely write a new one
02:46.39rasterthen depending on the phone i can't just replace the existing one
02:46.48ljpi cant put qtopia on symbian........ yet :)
02:46.49Tronicraster: I know that Symbian is hell for developers, and I find it amazing that there still is that much third party software available.
02:46.50rasteri need to have an auxiliary app for it
02:47.25Tronicraster: I would greatly prefer GTK or possibly even Qt, not to mention C++, over the Symbian/C++ language.
02:47.39rastersame
02:47.44rasterand openmoko is just that
02:47.53rasterif i dont like the address book- i can modify it
02:47.55rasteror replace it
02:48.03rasterhell i can replace the windowmanager and everything
02:48.03Tronicraster: You can do custom phonebook on Symbian.
02:48.10TronicFring is one program that does.
02:48.14rasteri can modify just about anything there
02:48.33rasteri can modify the EXISTING one
02:48.34rasterif i want
02:49.23ljpbah! who needs a window manager
02:49.40mjror a standard display system
02:50.06ljpframebuffer displays just fine :)
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02:53.33TronicBtw, how fast is OpenMoko on GTA01?
02:53.42mjrfaster than on qemu, to be sure
02:54.13TronicAre there significant delays (over few hundred milliseconds) anywhere in the UI, browsing menus, etc?
02:54.16mjrsluggish, but tolerable (to me anyway)
02:54.16rasterljp: :-P~
02:54.27TronicHmmh.
02:54.41ljpfaster than Speedy Gonzales
02:54.42rasterTronic: its absymally slow/bad
02:54.55raster(by my standards anyway)
02:55.10ljpraster: you are too used to desktops
02:55.11TronicIs this because of GTK?
02:55.21ljp:) probably
02:55.23Tronicljp: Desktops are way too slow nowadays.
02:55.24ljpor X
02:55.39TronicI'd like phones to be like they used to, five years ago (in terms of speed).
02:56.00ljpwith a one color LCD?
02:56.03TronicAt that time everything just happened instantly.
02:56.10mjrno it didn't
02:56.17mjr(but generally more so than these days yes)
02:56.22rasterljp: no - i just know how to make x do my bidding... efficiently
02:56.24raster:)
02:56.25TronicThe only thing that took some time was loading contacts from the SIM.
02:56.34rasteri happen to know exactly what x is doing under he covers for me
02:56.47TronicAnd starting the phone took a little while (much, much shorter time than starting Symbian phones).
02:56.57rasterTronic: gtk itself is not really fast
02:57.04rasterbut the theme used is pretty heavy too
02:57.10rastercombined it leads to non-fastness
02:57.29rasteropenmoko being as "standard" as possible gui-wise is good
02:57.32rasterit eases development
02:57.43rasteryour desktop app will "just work" on your phone when crosscompiled
02:57.47mjras for symbian, I'm used to an n-gage, so the neo isn't that bad for me ;)
02:57.47TronicIt would be nice if a lightweight UI library could be developed, with the GTK API.
02:57.50raster(if it can crap into the screen res)
02:57.59rasterso special languages/toolkits etc. needed
02:58.17rasterTronic: unlikely
02:58.18rasterits gtk
02:58.25Tronic(one that does not use XML, SVG, PNG or other heavy stuff, but rather renders the widgets internally by source code)
02:58.35rasterpngs is not a problem
02:58.37rastersvg is heavy
02:58.40rasterdont worry
02:58.43rasterwe are working on stuff
02:58.50rasterthere are toolkits that dont do that
02:58.55TronicPNG decoding is very slow on PC with libpng at least. Maybe there are better libs, though.
02:59.06rasterno - png decode is not bad
02:59.11rasterencode is horrid though
02:59.13Tronic(or maybe libpng has gotten faster in the past few years)
02:59.22mjrit's not like the theme is going to need to decode stuff very many times anyway...
02:59.36rastermjr: depends how a theme works
02:59.37raster:)
02:59.41rasterin my world it does
02:59.45mjrwell, I said "_need_" :]
02:59.45rasterbut thats what u have caching for
02:59.45raster:)
02:59.59mjryeah, I kinda assumed sane caching
03:00.06rasterpjut the right layers of software in and it becomes a moot discussion
03:00.26TronicRAM is getting cheaper all the time, too, so probably caching can be done without trouble.
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03:05.48billtangi want a toy on hand, so i have search this kind of stuff, i found n810 and moko1973 almost have the some price, which one is most funny?
03:06.20yanghI think n810 is more funny:)
03:06.39yanghmost software is ready, bigger screen.
03:07.01billtangbut we can only modify its software.
03:07.10yanghbut there is no phone function, while neo1973's  phone function is not ready yet;)
03:07.36mjrwell, the phone function seems to work decently (unless you get a bad build :] )
03:07.39yanghcan you modify neo's hardware?
03:07.58billtangi don't know
03:08.00yanghmjr: event on the gta01?
03:08.16mjryangh, why not?
03:08.37billtangbut it looks like you can add some new stuff to neo1973
03:08.47yanghI haven't try the recent build yet.
03:08.48mjrwell, SpeedEvil is adding some stuff
03:09.25billtangwhat kinda stuff bomb?
03:09.38mjrso sure you can interface some additions on it if you're handy
03:09.59mjrI think he's been talking wlan and accelerometers, don't know how the progress goes
03:10.41ljpn810 has skype and voip which can certainly make phone calls
03:10.55mjrljp always with the irrelevancies
03:11.16billtangbut you can't leave your building with skype
03:11.23ljpmjr: no, someone mentioned n810 has no phone functions, which is wrong
03:11.25mjr(also skype is part of the nokia deal one spesifically doesn't like)
03:11.30vininim3G, etc
03:11.39vininimor plain gprs
03:11.43ljpbilltang: I have a 3g phoen that says differently
03:12.01vininimactually, skype over gprs doesn't sound sane
03:12.08billtangfor sure, but i don't -_-!
03:12.08mjrljp, only it's obvious what he meant (though maybe not to you, admittedly)
03:12.27mjrvininim, indeed
03:12.34yanghljp: when we mean "phone function", that means there is a sim card slot, gsm attena...
03:13.11billtangcan we port android to neo1937, i think that ui is looks better
03:13.15ljpthen you need to specify gsm phone
03:13.33vininimyou should ask google about that
03:13.41ljpandroid is vapoeware so far
03:13.42yanghthat's neo
03:14.02mjrif android ever gets actually freed, "we" presumably can if "we" want to
03:14.07billtangso as gta2
03:15.11vininimI read somewhere that tomorrow is a decision day wrt to hardware revision.
03:15.19vininimsomewhere = the wiki
03:15.31TronicBtw, does OpenMoko only use C, or also C++?
03:15.39vininimI wonder what kind of offerings the hardware deities like
03:15.52ewonTronic: gcc
03:15.54ewonhence, g++
03:16.19Tronicewon: That's the compiler, but what language is the current software written in?
03:16.27billtangi want use python, i am learning it now
03:16.35mjrI believe the base stuff is in C
03:16.38vininima mix of c, c++ and python I would say
03:16.46mjrpython is my preference as well
03:16.48TronicPython is way too slow even on PC, so I can't see how it could work on a mobile phone.
03:17.03mjrthere's a lot you don't see, yes
03:17.09vininimand there is that gnome yet another language mentioned at the planet sometimes
03:17.09Tronic(yes, I do know that they have ports for Symbian and whatnot, but that doesn't mean it being usable)
03:17.14billtangbut it's running on n800
03:17.25mjrVala, I think
03:17.34vininimyah, that one
03:18.27mjranyway, certainly there are limits to what kinds of things you want to do with python on the neo, but there's a wide range of stuff that's useful and doesn't require maximum processing efficiency
03:18.40yanghIf neo is based on Intel's x86...
03:18.45mjrisn't
03:18.55rasterpython is fine for high level gluing blobs together with logic and flow
03:19.02rasteru would NOT write a game enigne in python
03:19.05rasteror a rendering engine
03:19.14rasteror anything seriously compute-intensivre
03:19.15yanghIt'll be more easier to development software.
03:19.18rasterin any way
03:19.52mjrfor instance, I'd beg to tell me why my python remote control simply doesn't work on a mobile phone
03:19.55billtangye i know, i just like the Interpreter, it get me a different way to think
03:20.46TronicEven if you use Python only for logic in places where speed does not matter, you need to load the interpreter and the libraries that you use.
03:21.14rastercorrect
03:21.29rasterandthat is a price you pay for saving writing lots of extra housekeeping code in c/c++
03:21.33TronicIf you have to mix Python with C++ (as you would do the parts that need to do run fast in C++, right?), things get really messy.
03:21.37billtangyes,so what, is that very hard for neo1973?
03:21.48TronicI gather that you can call C code just fine, but interfacing with C++ is trickier.
03:22.00rasteri PERSONALLY will kep it all in c as its easier for me
03:22.02rasteri'm a c coder
03:22.05ewonjust extern C it so it doesn't get munged
03:22.12rasteri have no qualms doing it all in c
03:22.21rasterits easy and fast for me
03:22.23rasterothers do not
03:22.25mjrthe hell I would do it in C++ either :]
03:22.26rasterto each their own
03:22.41Tronicraster: You don't need any housekeeping code (you mean memory management, right) in C++.
03:22.51rasterTronic: yes u do
03:22.52TronicOnly in C.
03:23.49TronicWhat C++ does worse than Python is the syntax. Python has piles of nice syntactic sugar on it, making the code look nicer (less unneeded characters).
03:24.23Tronicraster: I can see that you are a C coder :P
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03:25.06TronicMy C++ programs typically don't have any delete's or other explicit memory management anywhere. It just works automatically.
03:25.10rasterTronic: i can ss you are a c++ coder.
03:25.16rasterfact is housekeeping code exists in c++
03:25.22rasteru have new and delete methods
03:25.28rasterif u have any special requirements
03:25.29TronicE.g. this game http://ultrastar-ng.sourceforge.net/
03:25.35rasterlike data sharing with ref counting etc.
03:25.38rasterit exists
03:25.43rasteru pit is in a different place
03:25.45billtangwhat kind of job for c coder, embed stuff?
03:25.45rasterbut its there
03:25.50TronicZero deletes in there.
03:25.52rasterin c i can do the same things as c++
03:25.54rasteri can do OO
03:26.04rasteri can do inheritance
03:26.05rasterclasses
03:26.07ewonc++ is more maintainable C
03:26.08rasteretc. etc. etc.
03:26.12ewonthere, I said it.
03:26.15borg_raster: can you do templates?
03:26.30TronicThat program also uses no ref counting and in fact I haven't find any situation where that would be useful, yet.
03:26.34Tronic*found
03:26.57TronicBut when I do, I'll just use boost::shared_ptr and have it handled automagically, too.
03:27.17borg_raster: i hate it when i see f1(double x), f2(int x), f3(X x), .. all doing the same thing
03:27.58Tronicraster: OOP w/ virtual functions you can do in C, even though the syntax is quite horrible.
03:27.59rasterborg_: partially. depends on the situation
03:28.01rasterwell actually
03:28.04rasterit is possible
03:28.10rasterin the end it just is more code
03:28.16TronicOne thing that you cannot do in standard C is automatic module registration on linkage.
03:28.22rasterTronic:  i dont mind the syntax
03:28.28rasteri find c++ syntax quite horrible
03:28.29Tronic(but you can do it in C++)
03:28.38rasterits a personal preference
03:28.57rasterand no - in c its not automatic
03:29.03rasterbut u can make it work
03:29.22rasterdlopen() is your friend
03:29.25raster(and fridns)
03:29.30rasterfor doign all sorts of evil
03:30.44TronicE.g. that game uses audio output modules that are detected automatically. You can try to compile them all, then link only those that compiled successfully and the program will know which modules got linked it. Also works for dynamically loaded libs (just dlopen them, no need for dlsym), but obviously the loading part is not standard C++ anymore.
03:30.47rasteras for ref counting
03:30.49rasteri live on it
03:30.56rasteri dont know how i would survivie without
03:31.00rasteri dont duplicate data
03:31.05rasteri just ref it many times
03:31.18rastermaybe that dictates a differnec in performance
03:31.30rasterand maybe why c programmers tend to have more optimal c programs
03:31.36rasterthey have to do the dirty work - and they tend to care
03:31.43TronicI put the data on a higher level (on whatever owns all the things that uses that data).
03:31.44rasterand thus they tend to pay atention to detail
03:32.00TronicThus it will have lifetime greater than the users.
03:32.23rasterthat would simply be impossible for most of what i do
03:32.25Tronics/uses/use/
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03:33.13rasterit would also bloat out memory use and cpu overhead like no business
03:33.13TronicI have it hard to believe that it would be impossible in "most that you do".
03:33.21rasterit would
03:33.34TronicAs I personally haven't yet became across a single situation where it wouldn't be possible.
03:33.43rasteri write libraires, image processing, redienrm, toolkits widgets, gui apps etc.
03:33.54rasterdata comes from the lower levels
03:33.57rasternot fed in
03:34.02TronicAnd I have worked with quite many different kinds of projects.
03:34.19rasterif the same data is "loaded" again 0 simply a 2nd reference to it is returned avoiding a load and decode
03:34.21rasterand another copy
03:35.14rastermost objects runtime when refrerneces - get refcountied
03:35.30rasterto make sure all handles work even after delete until veryone gives up0 their refs
03:35.47*** join/#openmoko Marcel_M (n=Marcel_M@86.59.65.236)
03:36.04TronicSo you put the data on the higher level object and have it only loaded once. If you really want to defer the loading until needed, put a boost::scoped_ptr inside that high level object and load the resource only when requested.
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03:36.38rasterthe data is not under control of the higher layer
03:36.40*** join/#openmoko sagaci1 (n=mark@24.175.92.155)
03:36.50TronicOnly if you are very short on RAM, but have fast loading times and because of that want to unload the resource instantly when no-one uses it, you will need ref counting.
03:36.58rasteras completely independnant systems/code bases do the same work
03:37.06rasteruse the same lower levels to create their objects and manage
03:37.12rasterthey CANT share data otherwise
03:37.18rasterthese are not monloithic programs
03:37.48*** join/#openmoko billtang (n=billtang@static24-72-72-40.regina.accesscomm.ca)
03:37.49rasterthey are highly modular, well layers libraries, modules and independant code blocks
03:38.11sagaci1Should every openmoko source file have the gpl copyright header at the top?
03:38.15rasterthey cant manage data on a higher level withotu it being private to the higher level and thus needing duplication between non-sharing code blocks
03:38.22TronicA non-trivial library should always have some kind of master object that can be instantiated in main() or whatever and all objects used would use that as a master object.
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03:38.52TronicThe library initialization should be done in the constructor of that and the deinit in the destructor. Resources can be stored there nicely, too.
03:38.53rasterthe point of it thus they SHARE all data via their common layer
03:39.04rasterthe common layer handles everythng with refcounting
03:39.18rasteryes
03:39.21TronicA lot of libs try to do this in static context, but that is problematic as the programmer no longer has control on when the library is running.
03:39.24rasterand if multiple systems init and destroy
03:39.27rasteru need to refocunt
03:39.39rasteri know
03:39.47rasterthats why i am telling you refcounting is needed
03:39.55rasterbeen doing this kind of stuff for a decade
03:40.14TronicDifferent instantiations of the master object are fully separate, thus no need for refcounting.
03:40.45TronicIf you wish to make them shared, you will use static context, but I really don't like that approach.
03:41.20rasteri dont think you are thinking the same thing
03:41.31TronicAnother problem with that is having to do synchronization on all library functions that access the shared state.
03:41.42rasterthe data is all dynamic
03:41.44rasterall of iut
03:41.49TronicAs the same library may easily be used from multiple threads.
03:42.06rasterImage *img = load_ijmage("/path/to/my.png");
03:42.15rasterthen some completely separate piece of code does
03:42.21rasterImage *img2 = load_ijmage("/path/to/my.png");
03:42.29rasterin a totally unrelated bit of code in another toolkit
03:42.36rasterBOTH load_image calls return the same pointer
03:42.43rastersame reference to the same Image object
03:43.05rasterin order to make sure that ALL loads release their handle with an unref
03:43.15rasteru need to refcount it to make sure it is deleted only when the last reference goes
03:43.23rasteru CANT do that without refcounting
03:43.30TronicTrue.
03:43.31rasterUNLSs u do a complte new Image * object reference
03:43.47rasterin  whcih case its a duplicate of the data and multiple loads of the same data on disk
03:43.53rasterthus consuming mountains of cpu and ram
03:44.00TronicBut frankly, I have never came across the need for such an optimization (even using a same bitmap in multiple completely unrelated places).
03:44.21TronicIf the places need to share the same bitmap, they are likely also related...
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03:44.53Tronic(btw, in C++ you would do Image img("/path/to/foo.png"); instead of exposing any pointers to the user)
03:45.52rasterwell then - i'd be wary of using any programs you write
03:46.15rasteras i can tell u statistically references to images in my code are in the 204digit range
03:46.17rastererr
03:46.21TronicThe Image object would then contain a boost::shared_ptr<ImageData*> m_data that its constructor gets somehow from the static context.
03:46.21raster2-4digit
03:46.34raster10-1000+ refs are normal
03:46.54rasterdoing them your way would probably mean memroy and load blot of several dozen if not 100 times
03:47.03TronicStill, no need for deletes or destructors. Everything works automatically, except for fetching the resource, of course.
03:47.11TronicI can't see how Python can be better in this sense.
03:47.12rasterif it wrre not for doing shared caching and refocunting most of hat i do would not be possible
03:47.33rasterdunno about python
03:47.37rasterdont really care :)
03:47.47rasterbut refcounting solves all this
03:47.52rastersaves duplicating objects
03:48.08TronicWell, in C you need to do the cleanup manually, which may lead to errors (leaks or double-frees) very easily.
03:48.13rasterimage data is allocated and loaded dnyamically from on-dsik data
03:48.17rasteror somewhere else
03:48.30rasterand in c yes - u have to unref (free) the object
03:48.48rasterbut that just unrefs and at 0 ref dumps back into the speculative cache
03:48.53rasterthat cdoe actually doesnt have bugs
03:49.00rasterthere are no leaks
03:49.05raster:)
03:49.11rasterno handles are lost
03:49.18rasteras the object handles are tacked by canvas objects
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03:49.27rastercanvas objects are tracked by the canvas wrapper subsystem
03:49.38rastera non-deleted object is a visible entitiy
03:49.42rasteron screen
03:49.42TronicI mean if someone using the resource forgets to call the release function, your ref count will be too high and the resource will never get released.
03:49.47rasterif its still there u see it
03:49.59rasterand its just incorrect functioning of the program, not a leak
03:50.00raster:)
03:50.05TronicEven worse, if someone accidentally calls it twice, the resource will be freed, even though others still have pointers to it => segfault.
03:50.19rasterand yes - if they call it twice it may segv
03:50.29rasterin practice that doesnt happen as all objects have magic numbrs
03:50.31rasterref counts
03:50.44rasterand deletes are eve deferred by 2 render cycles for status caluclation purposes
03:50.51rasteru can check magic numbers and delete flags
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03:51.15rasterthe code even has segv catching so if it segv's during an object access it'll trap, save. back out safely and complain
03:52.14rasterif u destroy the owning canvas all objects in it are freed automatcally
03:52.29rasterin practice - it's not a problem that crops up
03:52.45rasterfrankly the probems are logic ons where u just get behavior wrong
03:52.59rastersegv's and such from forgetting to unref (free) basically dont hapen
03:56.38TronicWait, you said there was nothing shared, but they belong to a canvas after all? :)
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03:58.53poffyDYNAMIC ENTRY
03:59.16rasterTronic: they are within the same canvas but know nothing of eachtoher
03:59.47rastereg in one corner i have a vidoe playback widget with conrols that happen rto use the same images as a playlist widget.object that happens tio share imagery
03:59.54rasterthey are independent objects
03:59.58TronicHow are they linked to that canvas?
04:00.06rasterwritten separarely even in different libraries for example
04:00.18rasterthey happen to use the same canvas api to create/destory and manipulato objects
04:00.36TronicAh, so you only have one canvas at all times?
04:00.40Tronic(i.e. static context)
04:01.06TronicI thought canvas as an object that you can create (as a part of a GUI, for instance).
04:01.26rasterno
04:01.30rasteru may have multiple canvases
04:01.40rasterthose are alco created and destroyd on the fly as needed
04:01.52TronicThen how does load_image(...) know which canvas to link with?
04:02.01rasterthat was an example
04:02.07rasterif u want the actual code i can copy and paste it
04:02.13TronicNot really :P
04:02.27rasterits a multi-stage setup
04:02.30rasteru create empty image
04:02.33rasterthen u set the file source
04:02.44rastercreation is relative to a parent canvas
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04:08.34TronicTo summarize the discussion: (1) resources need to be ultimately owned by something, be it (a) static context, (b) some explicitly constructed object, or (c) garbage collector (not discussed here). (2) freeing a resource can be done (a) when deleted explicitly (if the programmer thinks that it is no longer needed, e.g. boost::scoped_ptr), (b) when the containing object goes out of scope (regular local or member variables, ...
04:08.40Tronic... boost::scoped_ptr) or (c) when there are no more references to it (ref counting, GC).
04:10.17TronicYou prefer 1a + 2c, I prefer 1b + 2b (rarely _also_ 2a, and 2c when I come across a situation where it is useful).
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07:43.15garnserhas anyone here played around with gllin?
07:43.23SpeedEvilbit, why
07:43.28garnserI'm trying to figure out why it wont boot on startup of the phone
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07:43.40SpeedEvilwhat's starting it?
07:43.52garnserI've linked the init.d script to the rc* folders but no luck so far
07:43.59garnserthw script itself works fine though
07:44.10SpeedEvilstrace -o foo script
07:44.16SpeedEvilmaybe?
07:49.01ewonjobs: http://www.demonware.net/jobs.html
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07:51.28garnsermaybe
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08:01.54garnserinteresting, I get even more accurate GPS co-ordinates on my Neo rather than my Garmin
08:01.57garnserimpressive
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08:05.21SpeedEvilwhat do you mean by more accurate?
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08:08.17garnserSpeedEvil: not that googlemaps is perfect but by comparing the co-ordinated I pulled out of my garmin compared with the ones I pulled from my Neo is more accurate mapped
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08:08.25SpeedEvilhaha.
08:08.27garnsercoordinates
08:08.29garnserbla
08:08.46SpeedEvilgoogle-maps is not accurate to that level often
08:08.57SpeedEvilAlas.
08:08.59garnserSpeedEvil: nah, but I like it in lala-land
08:14.29SpeedEvilunfortunately, the only practical way to do this is to A) find a survey point surveyed at better than 10cm
08:14.48SpeedEvilB) average for 48 hours in one spot with a good sky view
08:17.23jkuSpeedEvil, even B doesn't work if your equipment has systematic flaws...
08:17.55SpeedEvilNo, but most GPSs are not vulnerable to that sort of errors so much
08:18.03SpeedEvilwith a good sky view that is
08:18.12jkuI guess that's probably true nowadays
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08:18.58jkuI do remember the embarrasing errors in internal coordinate system transformations in some previous generations....
08:19.37jkuthose lead to a systematic error of tens of meters
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08:20.21SpeedEvilYeah - that's a point.
08:20.21SpeedEvilI was more meaning the internal representation of the position
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08:20.29SpeedEvilconverting to an external coordinate system can be screwy
08:20.44jkuno shit, it was a stupid idea to start with
08:20.56SpeedEvilwhat was?
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08:21.10jkuconverting internally
08:21.27SpeedEvilYou mean it should output in the native GPS format?
08:21.48jkuI was just talking about the coordinate sytem transformations
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08:22.10Hopscotchgood morning
08:23.01christian_hi
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08:44.42CIA-15openmoko: 03chris * r3981 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (ChangeLog src/phone-kit/moko-network.c):
08:44.42CIA-15openmoko: * src/phone-kit/moko-network.c: (on_network_registered):
08:44.42CIA-15openmoko: Unset operator name when unregistered from network
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10:06.00cdbot2* * OM Bug 1202 has been created by tick(AT)openmoko.com
10:06.02cdbot2* * Packagekit may crash while installing
10:06.02cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1202
10:06.10cdbot2* * OM Bug 1203 has been created by chris(AT)openedhand.com
10:06.12cdbot2* * neod emits far too much debugging output
10:06.14cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1203
10:06.42*** join/#openmoko denton (n=denton@dsl-static-138.212-5-199.telecom.sk)
10:07.01cdbot2* * OM Bug 1204 has been created by plr(AT)udgaard.com
10:07.02cdbot2* * Mobile keypad won't go away when selecting qwerty keyboard
10:07.03cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1204
10:07.11cdbot2* * OM Bug 1205 has been created by plr(AT)udgaard.com
10:07.13cdbot2* * Qwerty keyboard covers button when screen in locked mode
10:07.15cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1205
10:07.23cdbot2* * OM Bug 1206 has been created by plr(AT)udgaard.com
10:07.25cdbot2* * Even when "Dim only, don't lock" slected, screen is locked
10:07.27cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1206
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10:26.38CIA-15openmoko: 03werner * r3982 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (console-ansi.patch gta02-bootmenu.patch): (log message trimmed)
10:26.38CIA-15openmoko: Bring the boot menu also to GTA02. Since the Glamo is slower than a dumb frame
10:26.39CIA-15openmoko: buffer, we also need to accelerate the clearing of the screen.
10:26.39CIA-15openmoko: console-ansi.patch:
10:26.39CIA-15openmoko: - drivers/video/cfb_console.c (process_sequence): to clear the screen just
10:26.42CIA-15openmoko:  clear the screen, instead of slowly scrolling away its content
10:26.44CIA-15openmoko: gta02-bootmenu.patch:
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10:33.30CIA-15openmoko: 03werner * r3983 10/developers/werner/uboot-glamo-accel-broken.patch:
10:33.30CIA-15openmoko: Failed attempt to add Glamo hardware acceleration to u-boot.
10:33.30CIA-15openmoko: Note that everybody else (Kdrive, etc.) uses command queues, not
10:33.30CIA-15openmoko: MMIO. So it may well be that this hardware interface just doesn't
10:33.30CIA-15openmoko: work.
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10:55.00cdbot2* * OM Bug 1207 has been created by garnser(AT)gmail.com
10:55.02cdbot2* * Unable to unlock phone, OpenMoko logo unmovable
10:55.03cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1207
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11:08.01mickeylhmm
11:08.15mickeylwhy are people too lazy to check for existing bugs?
11:09.51ScaredyCat*blink*
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11:22.58wibbitmickeyl: I assume the duplication is obvious, and a degree in software development is not required to see the duplication? :p
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11:27.35morthoropenmoko
11:28.12CViruswhat is that ?
11:28.23morthoropenmoko
11:28.40CViruswhat is that ?
11:28.48morthoropenmoko
11:28.56CVirustevar
11:29.02mickeylwibbit: of course
11:29.03morthoropenmoko
11:29.11Gottoxmorthor is a bot :=
11:29.13Gottoxmorthor is a bot :)
11:29.16morthoris he?
11:29.33Gottoxfor sure :)
11:30.39morthorwhy
11:33.03CIA-15openmoko: 03mickey * r3984 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/daemons/neod/src/buttonactions.c: neod: silence debug output if not wanted (set MOKO_DEBUG environment variable). closes #1203
11:33.21morthori'm not
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11:41.34CVirusomg ... Egypt's Internet backbone is almost broken
11:41.39morthorwhy
11:42.38ScaredyCatmummy pr0n
11:43.03morthorwhy
11:43.13CVirus<phaeron> CVirus: edge routers between egypt and europe are dropping 50% pacjets
11:43.18morthorwhy
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11:48.08morthorwhy
11:49.38[PI]Samiwe has moar bandwidth then :D
11:49.51morthorwhy
11:50.05CVirusLOL
11:50.17morthorwhy
11:51.08CVirusmorthor: stfu
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11:55.01morthorwhy
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12:03.49tonyg'morning
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12:04.57morthorwhy
12:06.01morthorI ASKED WHY
12:06.59ahvenbecause
12:07.15Stephmwmickeyl: ping
12:07.45morthorpong
12:07.49morthorping pong
12:07.52morthorping
12:07.54morthorpong
12:07.58morthorping pong
12:08.01morthorping
12:08.04morthorpong
12:08.10morthorping pong
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12:10.06Stephmwat last
12:10.28tonyghas it been noisy in here, Stephmw ?
12:11.00Stephmwtonyg: just some idiot that finally disconnected
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12:24.28mickeylStephmw: pong
12:25.28ScaredyCatafaik it was to kick morthor
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13:34.23ScaredyCatabraxa__: ++
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14:00.45battin
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14:15.10spydonLo ppl
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14:36.57haakeyarmickeyl: Why aren't you set as the owner of the openmoko-terminal component in bugzilla? I have a patch in there for you. It is for a very low-priority bug and I just did it to try the vala language, but I assume it wouldn't take you much time to have a look at it.
14:37.12haakeyarBut feel free to wait if you have to do stuff with higher priority. :-)
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14:40.04mickeylsounds like historical reaosons
14:40.09mickeylwhich number?
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14:42.12haakeyar#1191
14:43.12mickeylk, thanks. assigning that to me.
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15:39.00abraxa__ScaredyCat: Was that a ping? ;)
15:39.11ScaredyCatno
15:39.26ScaredyCatkarma
15:39.35ScaredyCat~karma abraxa__
15:39.35aptabraxa__ has neutral karma
15:39.46ScaredyCat:/
15:39.52ScaredyCat~karma abraxa__ ++
15:39.52aptabraxa__ ++ has neutral karma
15:40.01ScaredyCatstupid bot
15:40.07ScaredyCatabraxa_ ++
15:40.12ScaredyCat~karma abraxa_
15:40.12aptabraxa_ has neutral karma
15:40.27abraxa_lol
15:40.41abraxa_I don't think karma was ever mentioned that often before here
15:41.10mickeyl~karma 3l33th4x0rs
15:41.10apt3l33th4x0rs has neutral karma
15:41.18mickeylhmm
15:42.01ScaredyCatabraxa_: I just found your gesture code in mediaplayer
15:42.02ScaredyCat2
15:43.06abraxa_Ah, great :)
15:43.23abraxa_if you had prodded me to write the wiki page then you'd have it found sooner
15:43.25abraxa_lol
15:43.39ScaredyCatthe discovery is half the fun...
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15:44.18yoyohello poli
15:44.27ScaredyCatplus I think that should be how yo control vthe volume of the ring on inbound calls
15:45.25yoyoI'w come hire today to say that i love eagle :P ( that who's my yoyo )
15:47.58abraxa_ScaredyCat: Note taken :)
15:52.20yoyo@:) I can't imagine hove it is to projects a rows to such device like neo :) so many ping, chips :)
15:53.06superstitioni've tried to run openmoko in qemu, but i'got the message Could not initialize SDL,  http://pastebin.com/m8763419
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16:19.37PBeckhi
16:20.48wurp2OK, I updated to the new rootfs from 1/29
16:21.20wurp2Now I can't make calls, and the new keyboard is great for sending SMS, but almost worthless on the term
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16:21.29wurp2SMS works, which is nice
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16:22.40goxboxlivewurp2: On what device?
16:23.14goxboxliveooh sorry, i thought i where on a diffrent channel
16:23.19wurp2:-)
16:23.24wurp2gta01
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16:39.17CIA-15openmoko: 03thomas * r3985 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/ (opkg_install.c pkg.c pkg.h pkg_parse.c):
16:39.17CIA-15openmoko: opkg: add a status flag to record if the package was automatically installed to
16:39.17CIA-15openmoko:  satisfy a dependency
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16:48.07Kero*blink* new roots? 17:20 < wurp2> OK, I updated to the new rootfs from 1/29
16:48.14Kerorootfs, even.
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17:14.14wurp2Kero: There are new (almost) daily rootfs images out on the buildhost
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17:14.41kdean06Actually, two sets of them, IIRC. :P
17:15.02kdean06Automated and daily built, thought it's possible they're just the same files.
17:15.30wurp2kdean06: The one from the 29th didn't work out so well for me
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17:15.44wurp2The kbd is almost totally unusable for terminal
17:15.44kdean06Kero, I'm working on a set of criteria to test by, and once I've got it down I plan on reviewing daily snapshots each day and posting info to the mailing list and Community Updates section.
17:15.48wurp2and I can't make calls :-(
17:16.06kdean06wurp2, I noticed that (terminal issue) but also noticed you can see the process name in top now. :P
17:16.09tonygwurp2, could you take a snapshot of the keyboard?
17:16.14tonygI'd like to see what it looks like
17:16.21tonygI find the old qwerty keyboard a pain for smsing
17:16.29kdean06tonyg, Give me a moment, I'll do it for you.
17:16.29tonygand quite good for the terminal
17:16.33tonygthanks kdean06
17:16.45Kerodaily image is not for me :)  if it can't make calls...
17:17.21Keronot that I need to call much, here and now. and the battery would die.
17:17.30wurp2tonyg: It's much better for SMS
17:17.51wurp2kdean06: Thanks, I don't have network access to my neo at work
17:18.19wurp2Kero: You just have to wait for someone to vet the daily image before you take it
17:18.28wurp2and be ready to revert to your last one if the new one is no good
17:18.29tonygsemiautomation might be the best you can do for most of the gsm stuff
17:18.48wurp2I've heard good things about the one from the 27th
17:18.50wurp2Trying that next
17:18.57Kerocan't test firmware, tho.
17:18.58wurp2Kero: Yay!!
17:19.00spydonWasn't today the last day to decide whether Freerunner should be released in march or not? :O
17:19.46Kerowurp2: and we need it, because apparently on a fresh image calling is a problem.......... ???
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17:21.41kdean06tonyg, http://www.monochromementality.com/index.php/photos/album/13/photo/94.html
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17:22.25tonygoh cool, t9ish?
17:22.31tonygor old-school pre-t9?
17:22.36kdean06Kero, I AM able to make called using the 29 Jan 2008 image. In fact, it's functional enough for me to replace Qtopia in a "normal use" case, thought I still have some complaints.
17:22.37tonygthanks, kdean06
17:22.51kdean06Old school "press 2 three times for C"
17:22.54tonygok
17:22.55kdean06I HATE it.
17:22.58tonyg:-D
17:23.12tonygintegrate with /usr/dict/words, violate a patent or two, and presto!, t9ishness
17:23.14kdean06If it had predictive input, I'd mildly dislike it.
17:23.37kdean06As it is now, I'm faster using Dasher than that input. :(
17:23.38tonyghow easy is it to write a keyboard? I'd love to see a Dasher
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17:23.39tonygha
17:23.42tonygsnap
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17:24.59kdean06I like Dasher, but I figure it would be too much of a jump for "normal" people. And even on a hi-res 22" monitor it's hard to see the letters clearly, so I can imagine it would be hell on the NEo.
17:25.17SpeedEvilDasher has problems
17:25.29SpeedEvilIt's primary one is you need to stare at it 100%
17:25.40SpeedEvilthere is absolutely no way to do it blind
17:25.48tonyggood observation
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17:26.00Kerolunchtime
17:26.10SpeedEvilOr to have an overlay keyboard like in principle you can do with t9
17:26.42kdean06No, I'm not arguing Dasher would be useful at all in OpenMoko, just that I give it points for originality. :)
17:27.48Hadakahmmh, I'm having a hard time understanding the synchronous vs. asynchronous discussion about the dbus apis
17:31.04Hadakawell, I think I'll just write it in a mail
17:32.15kdean06tonyg, As a side note, patents are largely irrelevant since if they had to be coded around we'd have to stop using things like "methods", "functions" and "exit status codes". I believe "variables" are also covered under some. So unless there's some lawsuits being flung about, I'd not worry too much.
17:32.45SpeedEvilthere is a current patent troll going about extorting money for wifi
17:34.53kdean06SpeedEvil, At least in the US, I think a few "high profile" contests of the software patent thing, and in specific with trolls, might see some change. It's not a big enough issue yet to be garnering attention, but the little that it has gotten indicates that regulatory people are seeing it as anti-competitive.
17:35.22SpeedEvilNot in this case software patent
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18:03.47wurp2kdean06: Is the app selector drop-down in the upper left corner disappearing on you in the build from the 29th?
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18:09.41yoyoshi* glass board don't fit int to cap with eased :/  cigaret
18:09.51zash_CM: *poke*
18:11.54xcasexCM: zash has got a lot of hair.
18:12.03xcasexi aint kidding.
18:13.15zash_hehe
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18:28.43wurp2Does anyone know what command to run to bring up the old qwerty software keyboard?
18:29.07wurp2The new release uses the multi-tap numeric pad, which is good for SMS but virtually worthless for terminal
18:29.52kdean06wurp2, Sorry, ran off to cash my check. Yes, the selector works for me in the 29th snapshot. IIRC the multi-touch input and the matchbox-keyboard conflict so you can't have both, but I've not tried.
18:29.52wurp2
18:30.14wurp2kdean06: Thanks.  :-/
18:30.22wurp2The selector works for me most of the time
18:30.38wurp2but it crashes sometimes when the neo is waking up from the locker
18:31.00wurp2it looks as if what's going on is that Neod locker app somehow ends up not in the foreground
18:31.06kdean06I'm always intrigued by why two hardware devices running the same software act differently. :P
18:31.06wurp2and Bad Things happen after that
18:31.11wurp2yeah
18:31.22wurp2I do have a little script of things I do after installing a new rootfs
18:31.29kdean06It's always small things. :)
18:31.31wurp2but I can't imagine how any of them could cause this
18:31.40ScaredyCatBad Thingâ„¢ i think!
18:32.03kdean06wurp2, What kinds of things are scripted, for instance?
18:32.07wurp2My neo also usually doesn't recover well from playing video in media player since the update to switch to 320x240 mode when rendering video
18:32.37wurp2Add 'dest card' to /etc/ipkg.conf, link /home/root to /media/card/home/root
18:32.39wurp2Hmm...
18:32.43wurp2that last could be a big issue
18:32.57wurp2because I don't blow away the neo apps data dirs
18:33.16wurp2and I install a bunch of stuff - ipkg-link, some python packages, gqview, etc.
18:33.24wurp2all on the SD card
18:33.33wurp2I should try a release w/o any of that
18:33.43wurp2Oh, regarding phone calls - that may totally be my bad
18:34.01wurp2I also copy over the top of the gsmhandstate.  I need to revert that and see if it fixes it
18:34.13wurp2but without a good terminal kbd, that will have to wait until I get home
18:34.36kdean06Yeah, it's hard to evaluate new images if it's not "Clean". It's why I re-install Debian every week. :P
18:34.44wurp2True
18:34.47ScaredyCatmmm
18:35.07wurp2But it's also hard to use the phone if I lose all my data every time I re-image
18:35.33kdean06I have two complaints about calls so far, 1.) The mic picks up background noise and drowns out the other person 2.) Dialer crashes if you get an incoming call on call-waiting.
18:35.39wurp2I should prolly go through some basic stuff (play vid, music, make a call, use term) after every new image before I run my scripts.
18:35.54wurp2I haven't experienced 2
18:36.10wurp2and for 1), I'm confused
18:36.46kdean06wurp2, I re-image, test and then move my data back after I've confirmed it works. This gives me a control AND a test group. :)
18:36.46wurp2The neo mic picks up background noise and drowns you out on the other end?
18:36.46wurp2kdean06: Yeah, that's my new plan I guess ;-)
18:37.00kdean06wurp2, Compare call quality to qtopia, for instance... On OM I hear "air" and it makes the people on the other end sound VERY quiet.
18:37.17Kerodoing anything on call-waiting seems dangerous for the internal state of either gsmd or libgsmd :(
18:37.23wurp2So you're hearing stuff from the OM mic on the OM speaker?
18:37.30wurp2weird
18:37.39kdean06Yes, and it's 90% of the sound.
18:37.44wurp2I do hear the air, too, though
18:37.47wurp2Now that I think about it
18:37.51wurp2I don't think it's that bad, though
18:37.56kdean06It's horrible for me.
18:37.58kdean06BUt it works.
18:38.10wurp2we do need noise cancellation, for sure
18:38.17kdean06I am under the impression that it will improve as more software is written.
18:38.39wurp2one would think :-)
18:38.47wurp2I have been surprised at the rate of change
18:38.51kdean06Kero, IS that a permanent issue or one that's not yet been addressed?
18:38.52wurp2But also at the kinds of changes
18:39.03kdean06Yeah, fits and starts. :)
18:39.19Kerokdean06: I hope to address it with the testing stuff I'm writing. Exposing the sh*t
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18:39.52kdean06Automated testing?
18:40.11kdean06Like... OM benchmarks for quality rather than speed?
18:40.21Keroautomated, yes.
18:40.36KeroI can talk to gsmd from the firmware side
18:40.39kdean06I'm VERY interested in that, if you don't mind sharing. I'm doing manual tests and I'd love to add those tests to the reviews.
18:40.44SpeedEvil'do calls have sound in and out' 'do SMSs work'
18:40.50Keroworking on talking to it from libgsmd side and/or talking to libgsmd
18:41.00Keroand then you can starting playing out scenarios
18:41.25Keroemulating the firmware, along with what you tell libgsmd to do.
18:41.27SpeedEvildoes anyone know of a SMS-web gateway?
18:41.43kdean06Sending or recieving?
18:42.07Keroboth? I'm not sure I understand that question
18:42.15SpeedEvilSMS->web
18:42.30Kerooh, different subject
18:42.31SpeedEvilso you can send SMS to a website that you or maybe others can access
18:42.39kdean06No idea. :(
18:43.36Kerokdean06: if I get the roundtrip from libgsmd->gsmd->emulated firmware->gsmd->libgsmd I'll announce it loudly (here and on some mailing lists)
18:44.58wurp2Is there anything for scheduling jobs on the Neo
18:44.59wurp2?
18:45.15Kerobut it'll take a few evenings to bring it there.
18:45.15wurp2Right now I'm running a script with an infinite loop and a sleep :-(
18:45.22Kerog2g now
18:45.31SpeedEvilScaredyCat: not quite
18:45.37SpeedEvilScaredyCat: that implies incoming hardware
18:45.50ScaredyCatwell, yeah...
18:45.54SpeedEvilScaredyCat: I mean SMS to someone elses hardware and they show the message via IP
18:45.56ScaredyCatonly a tdm card though
18:46.01wurp2Can't you send gate SMS to an email addresses?
18:46.20wurp2And if so, wouldn't it be far easier to write a little script to submit a URL when receiving the email?
18:46.25wurp2than asterisk...
18:46.54ScaredyCatpffft...
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18:47.48wurp2wow: 'Can't you send gate SMS to an email addresses?'
18:48.03wurp2s/send gate/gate/
18:48.09wurp2/addresses/address/
18:48.13wurp2s/, even
18:48.48wurp2talk good, no.  Bad talk do.
18:50.51tonygkdean06, see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:TonyGarnockJones for a patch to the alsa settings to remove the local-echo problem
18:50.57tonyg(the bottom of the page)
18:51.03kdean06Kero, Anything to add here? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Snapshot_review
18:51.13kdean06wurp2, You too. :) ^^
18:53.34wurp2kdean06: Adding section about keyboard
18:53.43kdean06k
18:53.58kdean06Should i specifically add in "Other" or should that be considered a given?
18:56.15wurp2Should probably be an 'Other'
18:56.34wurp2Ideally this would render as a table...
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18:56.48wurp2or maybe not; editing tables is a PITA
18:57.43kdean06As of this moment I only have this up to identify missing aspects to review. I'm not sure yet how I'm going to publish this on the Wiki...
18:58.06kdean06I can see why  table is what you think, so we'd have a row for each day/image but they'
18:58.13kdean06they suck. :)
19:01.51kdean06tonyg, Thanks for that! That change make a world of different... Now, for the million dollar question... What breaks that prevent that from being changed in the default?
19:02.18kdean06wurp2, Might wanna apply that gsmhandset change, it gets rid of the air. :)
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19:03.13wurp2kdean06: Wow, great!
19:04.03wurp2My current handset settings get rid of the air, too
19:04.16wurp2Of course, they also get rid of all the other sound
19:04.38wurp2Anyone know how to add stuff to the power-for-3-seconds menu?
19:04.46wurp2or the aux would be fine too
19:06.24kdean06Hrm... Battery life... :)
19:07.17wurp2Yeah, have you been following the community list about it?
19:07.32wurp2MShiloh says that they have it under control on the FreeRunner
19:07.58wurp2I wonder what the differences are that keep them from being able to put some of that code on GTA01
19:08.18kdean06GTA01vb4 has a firmware "issue" that is yet to be resolved.
19:08.19wurp2I thought the big problem was recovering the hardware after suspend
19:08.48kdean06But that's not the only issue, from what I understand.
19:08.49wurp2Whereas I thought the new power mgmt hardware on the FR is just better detection of current charge
19:09.06kdean06Hrm...
19:10.07wurp2current meaning now, not meaning amps
19:11.15kdean06I honestly don't really care too much about hardware or firmware since I can't really do anything about them, so I only know what I gather from here. :)
19:12.15kdean06Though, I think a power management (or any hardware, really) comparison between the 01 and 02 is kind of unfair. I've still not seen absolute confirmation from OM Inc that the power management issue is software... It's possible the hardware is just "Defective".
19:12.44kdean06At least, if it's been confirmed 100%, it's not been added to the Wiki. :P
19:12.53wurp2Per Michael Shiloh: 01/30/2008 - A small number of GTA02A5 have been made and are now being tested. Since much of the hardware is being verified by kernel and driver code, an excellent place to monitor this is on the openmoko-kernel mailing list.
19:13.06wurp2unrelated to our discussions, but I thought it was of interest
19:13.20kdean06I just unsubscrubed from openmoko-kernel today. :)
19:13.25wurp2heh
19:13.28wurp2I never subscribed
19:13.56wurp2I won't be doing kernel dev on OM unless I see a way to make money off it somehow (not to be crass)
19:13.57kdean06It's both over my head and uninteresting to me. It's easier to glean stuff here than wade through that.
19:14.31wurp2Yeah, I would really need to learn quite a bit before I would be useful for doing anything significant in the kernel anyway
19:15.05jmichelHas anybody used usbmon on the moko?
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19:30.46kdean06What is the best end point for a boot time test? From boot to... Startup chime? Fully loaded home screen? Splash screen?
19:31.02kdean06I'm hesistant to base it on the audio chime, because it doesn't always work. :)
19:32.20wurp2I would think fully loaded home screen
19:32.32wurp2Since you can't do much with the neo before then
19:33.18kdean06Okay, that's what I did.
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20:24.38kdean06What is the name of the application that handles the "hold power for several seconds" menu?
20:24.57wurp2Wow, Tony Garnok-Jones reimplemented the contacts, sms, and dialer api in erlang
20:25.00wurp22090
20:25.01wurp2lines of code
20:25.23wurp2And it looks as if his re-implementation is competitive with the normal one
20:25.30wurp2(feature-wise)
20:25.42dottedmagand what about CPU/memory usage?
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20:26.02wurp2I have no idea, but I'll bet it's not very much
20:26.11wurp2Except I dunno the typical memory usage for erlang runtime
20:26.16duffydhi, anyone know how I bring up the onscreen keyboard if it's currently not showing?
20:26.35wurp2The little keyboard looking icon in the top bar for builds older than this week
20:26.50wurp2For this week, the app should show it to you if you click on the area you want to enter text in, I think.
20:27.21wurp2I need to go learn erlang if he can do that in ~2000 lines of code, including UI
20:27.47duffydwurp2: thanks, I've got a build from this week and it doesn't show when I click in the pidgin password field :(
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20:27.54duffydmakes it pretty impossible to enter a password ;)
20:28.00wurp2agh, yep
20:28.11duffydI don't even know how to copy/paste stuff
20:28.16wurp2I guess I recommend an older build, then :-(
20:28.23wurp2I think copy/paste is app specific right now
20:28.24duffyddoh
20:28.30wurp2I've only seen it work in terminal
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20:28.31duffydgot it
20:28.37wurp2And that has only been going for the last week or so
20:28.44duffydok
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20:28.49duffydnooooo
20:29.13mmontourkdean06: "neod"
20:29.32kdean06Okay, thanks.
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20:30.16wurp2mmontour: Do you happen to know how to edit what shows up in that menu?
20:31.36mmontourI've never tried to edit those menus
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20:35.56kdean06wurp2, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Snapshot_review/2008-01-29
20:38.02duffydcan anone else let me know how I can get an older ipkg, i.e. one that was on http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/ ?
20:38.15duffydjust that the repo seems to have changed and the package I want is gone
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20:41.15wurp2kdean06: wow, that looks like a lot of work
20:41.24wurp2very helpful, though
20:41.35kdean06Not so much. :)
20:41.54duffydkdean06: yeah thanks and I agree with the less than usable multi-tap keyboard
20:42.02duffydme don't like :)
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21:17.31wurp2Ouch
21:17.56wurp2From top: malloc(): memory corrupted
21:18.12wurp2then when I ran it again, realloc failed
21:18.25wurp2on the neo, of course
21:18.44wurp2the malloc seemed to happen when I switched screen orientation while top was running
21:19.06wurp2but then the realloc issue happened while I was in the new orientation; no change in orientation while top was running
21:20.15spydonnot good :P
21:27.40wurp2Does anyone have docs (ha ha) for the gesture interface on the media player?
21:28.02wurp2I know a down-stroke turns volume down and an upstroke does the opposite
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21:28.47wurp2left stroke sends you back a few seconds
21:28.53wurp2right stroke to the future a few
21:29.23SpeedEvilA special symbol gets you tracks by prince.
21:29.52wurp2I'm not sure my digital dexterity is up to that one
21:30.08wurp2but just moving to the Prince section of my playlist will prolly do the trick
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21:47.16AndiMhi, I'm possibly going to get flamed into oblivion, but I'm having a display quirk issue with an openmoko image from angstrom unstable. after bootup on my e680, there's a stack of bars continually reoccurring on the screen (with a close button each). anyone knows how to get rid of those?
21:48.08SpeedEvilAre they stationary?
21:48.12SpeedEviland what color?
21:48.30SpeedEvildo you get a normal startup with a bar going from side-side over logos?
21:49.38AndiMSpeedEvil: huge grey bars starting right above the screen keyboard (screen is big enough to get filled by about 7 of those)
21:50.15AndiMSpeedEvil: I get the Angstrom image with a loader progress bar on startup.
21:51.31AndiMwell, I should rather say Angstrom "bitmap", "image" could easily be misunderstood ;)
21:52.04CIA-15openmoko: 03werner * r3986 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (loadenv.patch series): (log message trimmed)
21:52.04CIA-15openmoko: If we have a writeable environment in persistent storage and
21:52.04CIA-15openmoko: CONFIG_CMD_LOADENV is set, add the command "loadenv" to load a new environment.
21:52.04CIA-15openmoko: This is to be used for getting access to the persistent environment stored in
21:52.04CIA-15openmoko: NAND after we've booted the GTA02 from NOR.
21:52.08CIA-15openmoko: This patch also adds a command "defaultenv" that resets the environment to the
21:52.10CIA-15openmoko: hard-coded default settings, which is also useful without "loadenv".
21:52.11AndiMbut after bootup the environment is rather functional, EXCEPT... for the stupid bars that keep reoccurring ;)
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21:52.29SpeedEvilandred_: no clue
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22:04.27AndiMthanks! bye!
22:04.29*** part/#openmoko AndiM (n=andi@p54A3BE08.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
22:09.07CVirusat laaaaaast .. we're back online
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22:10.02CVirusCable damage disrupts Egypt, Gulf telecoms and Internet http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5j6GtW4pjOAlLmVX_2EBnG_-RHjxQ
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22:17.14wurp2CVirus: Ouch!
22:17.31CVirusWe're partially back online
22:17.56CVirusthe damaged cables are "Flag" and "Seamewe 4"
22:18.57CMFeels pretty safe to sit in central Stockholm, we have a lot of good connections.
22:22.31oelewapperke3 days outage because of 1 cable cut ?
22:22.43oelewapperkehave these people ever heard of "redundancy"
22:22.59oelewapperkethe internet mirrors the rest of the world I guess
22:23.10oelewapperkeno real infrastructure beyond tel aviv until you get to india
22:23.21CMI've seen a good map of all major lines, but now I can't find it
22:23.26oelewapperkedespite billions of money supposedly thrown at it
22:23.27CIA-15openmoko: 03werner * r3987 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/loadenv.patch:
22:23.27CIA-15openmoko: "quilt refresh" before "svn commit" would help to improve the correctness
22:23.27CIA-15openmoko: of my patches :-(
22:23.27CIA-15openmoko: loadenv.patch:
22:23.27CIA-15openmoko: - common/cmd_nvedit.c (do_loadenv): directly use "env_relocate_spec" and update
22:23.28CIA-15openmoko:  gd->env_addr
22:23.30CIA-15openmoko: - common/cmd_nvedit.c (do_defaultenv): nicer progress output
22:23.50thomasg_no, if some cables are broken, the spammers take the remaining capacity :)
22:23.58CVirushehe
22:24.05oelewapperkeCM: probably best, in Egypt they'd just blow them up
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22:25.27oelewapperkeundersea cables avoid hitting muslim countries
22:25.27CMoelewapperke: Hehe
22:25.34oelewapperke... for good reasons unfortunately
22:25.34CMhttp://www.telegeography.com/products/map_cable/images/Cable_Map_big.gif
22:25.55CMNot the best image, too small..
22:26.32CVirus2 cables were damaged by the way .. not just one
22:26.36CVirusand the outage took a couple of hours only
22:26.51oelewapperkethen why the 3 day outage ?
22:26.51CViruswe're on emergency lines now I guess
22:27.03thomasg_well, fixing optical sea-cables is not that easy
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22:27.05oelewapperkethey couldn't be bothered to reset the muxer ?
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22:29.21CVirusSuch major damage to the internet backbone can cause major problems despite redundancy which allows some re-routing. The loss of so much bandwidth is likely to have an impact.
22:29.24CVirushttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/30/india_mideast_lose_internet/
22:30.18CMAnd we're all getting more and more dependant on the net to be available
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22:31.27oelewapperkeit keeps baffling me how little infrastructure there is in these supposedly "mind-bogglingly rich" oil countries
22:31.45oelewapperkethere is this thing called "the future" ... someone urgently needs to introduce them to it
22:32.28oelewapperkeor the world itself, God if you will, will demonstrate to everyone else what can go wrong if you don't build infrastructure
22:33.24kdean06I don't know if that's exactly a fair assessment. From what I understand there are a LOT more places that have massive infrastructure issues, but not the single-point-of-failure kind.
22:33.39kdean06You either lead or suck.
22:33.51oelewapperkeI suppose that's true
22:34.07oelewapperkestill europe is not quite the leader, but not doing bad at all
22:34.26kdean06All 10% of people in the USA who have broadband access have REDUNDANT broadband, but it's still only 10%.
22:34.30CMWell, depends on how you count
22:34.41CMAlso, people in us seem to have very slow internet access
22:34.53kdean06The internet is just as much a social network as a physcal one, the more people, the better.
22:35.07CMI'd say 8-10 mbit is the norm here
22:35.08oelewapperkeUS is just too big for the internet using current tech
22:35.10oelewapperkesame for cellular
22:35.28CMI had 100/10 before for about 43USD/month
22:35.41oelewapperkecm : in egypt ?
22:35.46CMNo, Sweden
22:36.29kdean06I live in Washington DC, or outside of it, and I've got 3 meg/756 and it's the best, non-shared package I can get. And I'm in the "good" bracket that has "faster-than-dialup"
22:36.33oelewapperkesweden is also a very big country with relatively little people
22:36.48oelewapperkethey could have done worse
22:37.02CMYeah, about 20 ppl/sq km, us have around 15
22:37.16CVirusI have a 1mb connection here in Egypt :-D
22:37.25CM:)
22:37.47fatal-100/10 availability is increasing here too. it'd be possible to get on into this building if people were ready to invest for it a bit.
22:38.32oelewapperkeCVirus: where do you live ? Cairo ? Alexandria ?
22:38.37CVirusCairo
22:38.41CVirusthe capital
22:38.46SpeedEvil(UK, 512/256k conneciton)
22:38.51kdean06The problem we have in the US is that we've got NO competition at ALL in the internet infrastructure, and "the last mile" is owned by the telcos... Which means they have so many customers they don't care aboue any single one, and they have no impetus to change, since your options are "Pay that one" or "no internet"
22:39.00oelewapperkeouch ... I hope the police is better than on the videos we get to see
22:39.19CVirusoelewapperke: the police is much worse .. those videos are "nothing"
22:39.25CMkdean06: I've heard that Australia is even worse though
22:39.29oelewapperkeand then this terrorist political party ... must be bad on the street though
22:39.40fatal-kdean06: here the law requires to give all operators access to the copper for a reasonable price
22:39.52CVirusoelewapperke: nah ... it's the government that is kicking our asses not the muslim brotherhood
22:40.18oelewapperkeCVirus: I'd prefer even hitler to the muslim brotherhood
22:40.28kdean06fatal-, We've got resellers, and they rock! But they're only able to offer the speeds the telcos themselves offer.
22:40.32CVirusI'd prefer dying
22:40.42oelewapperkeCVirus: that too, probably :-
22:40.43CVirusoelewapperke: they're still not that strong yet though
22:40.48SpeedEvilOr satellite internet
22:41.01oelewapperkeI don't see how they could possibly think allah's going to solve stuff for them
22:41.02kdean06CM, I can say one plus to Austrialian ISPs is that in the US nobody sells metered plans.
22:41.09CVirusoelewapperke: and yet .. the USA is helping Egypt
22:41.22oelewapperkeCVirus: because otherwise half the population would starve
22:41.26oelewapperkethey're christians you know
22:41.38CVirusoelewapperke: more than 80% are starving already .. what are you talking about !!
22:41.54CVirusoelewapperke: we have only 10% christians
22:42.10CVirusoelewapperke: you guys know nothing about what's happening over here
22:42.11oelewapperkeno I mean America feels it has to save Egyptians because AMERICANS are christians
22:42.15oelewapperkenot because egyptians are
22:42.32oelewapperkeand russie feels they can buy you into communism
22:42.39CVirusoelewapperke: america save Egypt ? you gotta be kidding me !! America is funding Egypt to buy the torturing tools
22:42.42rastersave the whales!
22:42.58CVirusraster: save the Egyptians :-)
22:43.00CVirussave us first
22:43.01kdean06I don't think overly broad statements like those do anything productive...
22:43.15kdean06Greetings raster.
22:44.04oelewapperkeCVirus: ahem ... half of egypts economy is us aid
22:44.08oelewapperkenot just "torturing tools"
22:44.22oelewapperke(even if yes, probably those are us aid too)
22:44.41CVirusoelewapperke: nah ... 50% of the Aid goes into the pockets and the other 50% goes for the tools
22:44.44*** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@78-86-213-209.zone2.bethere.co.uk)
22:44.46kdean06mwester, That's still true. :( Perhaps not within city limits, but CERTAINLY within metro areas. When the plane hit the Pentagon here, people in this office could smell the smoke, that's how close I am to DC, yet despite being this close, fiber isn't availible here for a reasonable price but it is in DC.
22:44.47mwesterSave the whales?  "Help preserve wildlife - pickle a squirrel today!"
22:44.52oelewapperkeCVirus: it's like that everywhere
22:44.55CVirusoelewapperke: we got no economy .. you know nothing :-)
22:44.55oelewapperkeyou can't trust politicians
22:45.02oelewapperkeanywhere
22:45.05CVirusthe whole world knows nuthing about us
22:45.24oelewapperkeyou do know oil's going to run out soon heh ?
22:45.27SpeedEvilMarcel_M: it depends. They are pretty trustable to embezzle as much as they can get away with
22:45.35oelewapperkeI'd get the hell out of egypt before max 2010 ...
22:45.36SpeedEvilcelew:
22:45.39CVirusoelewapperke: we don't produve much though
22:45.39rasterkdean06: moo!
22:45.45CVirusproduce*
22:45.48kdean06lol
22:45.50CVirusoelewapperke: I'm still young to leave
22:45.58CVirusoelewapperke: haven't finished college yet
22:46.08oelewapperkemaybe search for a scholarship ?
22:46.31CVirusI'm leaving by 2011 probably
22:46.31oelewapperkeyou may find a few people insulting "your religion" but it'll be pretty fun
22:46.45CVirusoelewapperke: I'm an Atheist
22:47.03oelewapperkeCVirus: you'll change your mind :-p God knows I did
22:47.37oelewapperkescience gets a lot less "certain" once you know more about it
22:47.51oelewapperkeand I really mean a hell of a lot less clear
22:48.04SpeedEvilscience doesn't say anything about the first cause
22:48.11oelewapperkefor example
22:48.12vininimand then science isn't supposed to fulfill the role of religion
22:48.29oelewapperkethe "big bang" theory is basically based on "hey let's suspend this whole causality thing"
22:48.33CVirusactually I don't classify myself as an atheist nor as an agnostic .. I just use the word atheist to get the hell out of those debates .. all I can tell you is that I hate religions .. that's all
22:48.51vininimatheism isn't about science as religion
22:48.51*** join/#openmoko zedstar (n=john@82-44-200-69.cable.ubr08.haye.blueyonder.co.uk)
22:49.03wurp2oelewapperke: You have a lot of strong opinions about things you know nothing about..
22:49.34oelewapperkewurp2: maybe. You don't know anything about me
22:49.34wurp2And I'm not sure why we're discussing any of this in #openmoko
22:49.40oelewapperkeyeah ofcoz sorry
22:49.43oelewapperkejust felt like talking
22:49.45SpeedEvilMarcel_M: causality doesn't apply to before the big bang.
22:49.53SpeedEvilcelewap:
22:50.11oelewapperkeSpeedEvil: that's what I mean ... "let's just suspend it ... but 'just once'"
22:50.21oelewapperkeobviously you have the first mover problem
22:50.25SpeedEvilBefore the big bang, this thing we call time stops
22:50.34oelewapperkeI like the explanation of an "eternal" universe that genesis implies much better
22:50.42SpeedEvilthere is no time before it, so causality breaks down
22:51.03oelewapperkeexactly what equation states that there is no time before it ?
22:51.05SpeedEvilYou can as easily specify that the first cause was god pressing the red button
22:51.14CVirushehe
22:51.18SpeedEvilafter setting all the conditions.
22:51.29zedstarhad to double check what channel i just entered then!
22:51.32oelewapperkethe only thing relativity states is that it's a singularity ... that we cannot "see" time before the big bang
22:51.34vininima god that just pressed the red button doesn't matter to atheists
22:51.36oelewapperkebut it most certainly was there
22:51.49vininimcertainly an heresy for christians
22:52.08oelewapperkedepends ... you have the "mostly mechanical" God concept
22:52.12oelewapperkewith the whole miracle thing
22:52.14CVirusGod exists .. you know why ? because it's written in the bible
22:52.15CVirus:-p
22:52.28vininimand I don't see how this is relevant to openmoko
22:52.35oelewapperkevininim: that's because it isn't :-p
22:52.59CVirusanyways ... When will I be able to sync my Neo1973 with KDE ?
22:53.00oelewapperkewhy does this type of conversation make people so uncomfortable ?
22:53.38wurp2CVirus: What do you want to sync up?
22:53.42vininimbecause of the deja vu and circular reasoning?
22:53.46CViruswurp2: to-do list maybe
22:54.19wurp2Amen
22:54.24vininimand the christian god makes the hardware deities angry. we should be all making sacrifices to the hardware deities, tomorrow is february 1st
22:54.55wurp2CVirus: I just want to get my phone numbers off my SIM into my phone :-/
22:55.16CMwurp2: Yeah, the whole contact list
22:55.27wurp2I figure I can sync text files with usb cable + rsync :-)
22:55.53CVirusI'd prefer bluetooth :-)
22:55.56wurp2maybe throwing a revision control tool in there instead of rsync
22:55.59oelewapperkeI just want the wifi phone
22:56.06oelewapperkepreferably with nes and sega emulation
22:56.08wurp2well, you can do IP networking over BT too
22:56.24oelewapperkeI'll write it myself, but I really want wifi (or wimax)
22:56.26wurp2I would love to see some emulators
22:56.46wurp2If someone can figure out a way to provide useful controls on a touchscreen device :-/
22:56.55oelewapperketoo little buttons to make emulation really comfortable
22:57.00vininimheh, that too
22:57.12oelewapperkebut I suppose you could make some usb attachment
22:57.21vininimare there BT controlers?
22:57.24oelewapperkeI'm saving up a bit for the wifi phone
22:57.34wurp2I guess you could display a control overlay on the screen, but it would only work for people with tiny fingers, and your fingers would block the game content
22:57.37oelewapperkebt controllers suck (or rather, replacing the batteries suck)
22:58.14oelewapperkeespecially if you like leaving them in the car or some such
22:59.06*** join/#openmoko bipak_ (n=bip@p57B847D0.dip.t-dialin.net)
22:59.12oelewapperkeCVirus: what do you study ?
22:59.31CVirusoelewapperke: Computer Science at The German University in Cairo
22:59.39CVirusThe GUC
23:00.17CVirusdad pays alot
23:01.58oelewapperkegive him a nice present on dad's day :-p
23:02.04CVirushehe
23:03.08CVirusoelewapperke: what do you study ?
23:03.33oelewapperkecomputer science master
23:03.40oelewapperkeworking on my thesis in AI
23:03.46CVirusinteresting
23:03.48CViruswhat university ?
23:04.04oelewapperkeantwerp
23:04.29oelewapperkebut I studied most at leuven
23:04.35oelewapperkecatholic university of leuven
23:04.47oelewapperkebut in belgium universities are mostly alike
23:07.18CVirusoelewapperke: how much are you paying for the master degree ?
23:07.18oelewapperke500 euros a year
23:07.23oelewapperkewithout housing and books and laptop and such
23:07.40oelewapperkebut I'm working full time, so I have those too
23:07.50oelewapperkesome days that really sucks though
23:07.52CMWeird, we get paid for studies :)
23:08.04CVirus500 euros a year ?
23:08.22CMNo, about 3000 eur
23:08.29CVirusisn't this a private university ?how come is it too cheap
23:08.54oelewapperkeall universities are public in Belgium
23:08.54spydonWhere do you live CM?
23:08.59CMSweden
23:09.03spydonlol me too
23:09.10CViruswikipedia says it's a private university http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Antwerp
23:09.33CMspydon: There's quite a few swedes in here :)
23:09.46spydonYeah
23:09.59spydonCM, where in Sweden do you live?
23:10.01oelewapperkeCVirus: that's wrong
23:10.12oelewapperkedunno why wikipedia says that
23:10.16oelewapperkeit's even worse than the others actually
23:10.21*** join/#openmoko Ghiottone (n=ale@88-149-251-249.dynamic.ngi.it)
23:10.28oelewapperkeat least the catholic university has *some* independance
23:10.35oelewapperkeantwerp is just straight the ministry of education
23:11.03CMspydon: And I have a debug board if you need one and is somewhere near by :)
23:11.07Ghiottonehey CM
23:11.10CVirusoelewapperke: what's the study language ?
23:11.18CMGhiottone: Hello there, how are things?
23:11.22Ghiottoneand hi all
23:11.35spydonCM, Nice I live in Sigtuna, just a few miles from you then maybe :)
23:11.41GhiottoneCM pretty busy with new job here.
23:11.46CMGhiottone: Guess you saw balrog-kun's elf loader with binary translation?
23:11.48GhiottoneCM and you?
23:11.55GhiottoneCM yep
23:11.56CMGhiottone: Yeah, same here, work is killing me
23:12.11GhiottoneCM ld4 caught my attention in an instant
23:12.25CMspydon: Ah, trevligt, har varit där en gång för några år sedan. Fint :)
23:12.43GhiottoneCM all work and no play, makes jack a dull boy
23:12.50CMGhiottone: Oh yes.. :(
23:13.01oelewapperkeCVirus: dutch
23:13.03oelewapperkewell
23:13.07oelewapperkeenglish/dutch
23:13.11oelewapperkefor obvious reasons
23:13.15spydonCM: jo då det är rätt fint. Nej snart är det dags att gå och lägga sig -_-
23:13.20CMI did manage to flash a new om image, but now I can't get the networking going..
23:13.37CMspydon: Jo, upp före 7 imorn igen.. Gonatt
23:13.39Ghiottoneusb gadget?
23:14.01CVirusoelewapperke: I wanna do a master degree in English .. What cheap university at your country would you recommend ?
23:14.09spydonCM, Kämpigt, gonatt
23:14.12CMGhiottone: Naa, not sure what it is and I'm too tired to look now. Suspect my desktop, since I've done a few odd updates
23:14.23CMSame kernel that worked before christmas though.
23:14.44Ghiottonestrange
23:14.49CMHave to look at it this weekend or so. Gf is working double shifts on sunday ;)
23:14.57Ghiottonemaybe just a networking reconfiguration after package install
23:15.04Ghiottoneeheheh
23:15.08CMYeah, something like that.
23:15.16oelewapperkeCVirus: leuven is the best, brussel the easiest
23:15.40oelewapperkethey are exactly the same price
23:15.42GhiottoneCM my gf had a weeding last saturday and I got a few time to try an hackintosh :P
23:15.54oelewapperkebut probably you'll be able to find cheaper accomodations in Brussels
23:15.57oelewapperke+ brussel has metro
23:15.59oelewapperkenice for moving around
23:16.13oelewapperkeleuven is also a lot more beautiful
23:16.17CVirusoelewapperke: wikipedia says Leuven is private too
23:16.36CMGhiottone: Heh, the mac air looks nice, but I'm pondering a dell xps1330 too
23:16.38oelewapperkestill it's 500 euros per year
23:16.52CMCheaper, and a lot more connections and stuff
23:17.04oelewapperkeCVirus: http://www.kuleuven.be/english/
23:17.19CVirusthanks
23:18.05CMCVirus: Or look for an exchange program to sweden while they still pay exchange students the same money as we get :)
23:18.18GhiottoneCM yeah mac notebooks look all nice. air specially. but I'm more interested in just the os. If only I could use it a bit without paying the lot of money for a mac
23:18.35CMGhiottone: Exactly
23:18.40oelewapperkeCVirus: if sweden's university is minus 3000, that's obviuosly better :-p
23:18.46CVirushehe
23:19.22CMoelewapperke: That's the study subsidies, 300 eur per month, except for june and july
23:19.31oelewapperkelots of fjords ... cold and rainy ... but then belgium's the same
23:19.47oelewapperkeCVirus: bring a scarf, or maybe a few dozen
23:19.47SpeedEvilbelgium has fewer fjords.
23:19.52Ghiottonecm I've just got the news that Dell is selling a laptop with linux. an ispiron with ubuntu
23:19.52CMAlso, you can borrow another 500 eur every month to a vey good interest from the state
23:19.54oelewapperkehehe
23:20.13CMGhiottone: No, also the xps1330 since a few days
23:20.15oelewapperkeCM: can you only start repaying after you graduate ?
23:20.19CMGhiottone: But not in sweden yet
23:20.29CMoelewapperke: Yes
23:20.59CMoelewapperke: Well, you can pay back any time if you want, but the interest is basically nothing. Last year I had 2.3% or so
23:22.15oelewapperkeseems like a good deal
23:22.18CVirusWhy do they pay you ?
23:22.29CVirusYou have to refund the money ?
23:22.41oelewapperkebecause they want people to study, CVirus
23:22.46oelewapperkeit's what runs our economy
23:22.48spydonTo get their BNP higher and to get more taxes probably :P
23:22.49CMCVirus: No refunding on the subsidies, only the loan part
23:22.56CVirusI see
23:23.02CMAlso, they want everyone to have equal chance to study
23:23.09CMNot only the rich
23:23.16spydonyeah
23:23.22oelewapperkelots of companies "innovate", which basically means they do design work on products
23:23.25CMEven though there's barely any rich people here, we're all semi-poor ;)
23:23.28oelewapperkelike nuclear power plants for egypt
23:24.01CVirushehe
23:24.01oelewapperkeapparently it *can* snow in Egypt, so were having to modify a few things :-p
23:24.23*** join/#openmoko holycow (n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com)
23:24.25oelewapperkeno flat roofs allowed
23:25.56CVirusCM: what Universities in Sweden shall I take a look at ?
23:26.15CMCVirus: I assume you want computer related ones..
23:26.31CVirusyup
23:26.35CVirusEnglish
23:26.45CMI studied at Umeå University, it's in the north and not so famous. But the computer department is very good
23:27.16CMLook at umu.se, kth.se and chalmers.se
23:27.57spydonCVirus, http://www.kth.se/?l=en_UK
23:28.09spydonAh you allready sent that one CM :P
23:28.23CVirusthanks :-)
23:28.26CMAlso liu.se might be nice
23:28.35oelewapperkelooks cool
23:29.23*** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-161-069.pools.arcor-ip.net)
23:29.24CViruslooks like Umea doesn't have an English website
23:29.31CVirussorry .. found it
23:30.11blckdoveanyone using gentoo? whats the emerge pkg name for "cu"?
23:30.44CVirusexcuse me ?
23:30.44CViruscu ?
23:30.48SpeedEviluucp-tools?
23:30.50blckdovethe tool
23:31.00CMblckdove: SpeedEvil said it
23:31.12blckdovethx
23:31.44CMblckdove: Hmm.. but in gentoo it's taylor-uucp
23:31.59blckdovethat seems to be.. is that the same thing?
23:32.05CMYes
23:32.15blckdoveok
23:32.18blckdovethx
23:32.19CMhttp://www.airs.com/ian/uucp.html
23:32.24wurp2blckdove: I recommend using screen instead of cu
23:32.35wurp2Just because most people already have it, and it works fine for me...
23:32.50blckdovescreen?
23:32.56CMSome people recommended cutecom, but I found it annoying
23:32.58blckdovehow do u use screen for that?
23:33.09wurp2screen /dev/ttyACM0
23:33.17blckdove=D
23:33.19wurp2<PROTECTED>
23:33.29wurp2I'm in screened irssi too
23:33.32oelewapperkeCVirus: Cairo doesn't have good univ ?
23:33.50blckdoveconnection to bootloader is simple serial type "terminal" right?
23:33.58wurp2blckdove: I was surprised too; I had no idea screen could talk to terminal devices
23:34.02oelewapperkeI seem to recall hearing something about a university of cairo somewhere
23:34.03wurp2I use USB
23:34.19wurp2in the boot menu
23:34.30CVirusoelewapperke: the best 2 Uni's we got are the American University in Cairo and The German University in Cairo
23:34.38CVirusoelewapperke: both are private unis
23:34.44CVirusoelewapperke: all the others are crap
23:35.00oelewapperkeprivate as in really expensive ?
23:35.06CVirusreally really expensive
23:35.43oelewapperkegood univ costs a lot to the govt I suppose
23:35.47oelewapperkebut it pays off really well
23:35.54oelewapperkebut only after 20 years or so obviously
23:36.10CVirusoelewapperke: come tell them that
23:36.24CVirus:-)
23:36.46oelewapperkeyeah
23:37.03oelewapperkeeuhm "muslim brothers" please step aside ... oelewapperke's here with the solution :-p
23:37.06CVirusI no longer care as I'm leaving soon
23:37.07oelewapperke*bang*
23:37.24CVirusoelewapperke: muslim brothers have totally nothing to do with what's happening in Egypt
23:37.56CVirusoelewapperke: they are a minority and they are being chased by the government
23:37.59oelewapperkesorry I'm not trying to be rude, it's just he only party I know the name of
23:38.09CVirusoelewapperke: I hate them anyways
23:38.27CVirusoelewapperke: come tell mubarak :-)
23:38.31oelewapperkethey got mentioned a lot when gazans bulldozed the border
23:38.47CVirusfucken palastenians
23:39.18oelewapperkehehe
23:39.22Mononokeyou you two sound a bit "nazi" like to me
23:39.22oelewapperkegaza has a university
23:39.32oelewapperkeand (no joke) only one study course
23:39.41oelewapperke"assymetric warfare"
23:39.51CVirusIsrael has good Unis too
23:39.53*** join/#openmoko Fradeve (n=fradeve@87.19.77.216)
23:39.56oelewapperkestrange people
23:40.02CVirusbut if I go and study there .. they'd kidnap my family here
23:40.08CVirusseriously
23:40.20CVirusthey'll hurt my family
23:40.38CVirusand probably accuse me of spying and kill me too .. like what happened with that guy months ago
23:40.49CVirusanyways
23:41.04oelewapperkesome people are obsessed with "conspiracies"
23:41.13oelewapperkehere at least there not yet killing anyone
23:41.16oelewapperkethey're just really rude
23:41.25CVirusI just gave a presentation about "Egyptian Conspiracy Theories against Israel"
23:41.32CVirus2 days ago that was
23:41.39*** join/#openmoko Fradeve (n=fradeve@87.19.77.216)
23:41.49vininimdoes the qemu emulates all hardware in freerunner?
23:42.00*** join/#openmoko kW (n=kwkw@130.216.42.69)
23:42.10wurp2I haven't seen a qemu image for FreeRunner
23:42.24oelewapperkegot powerpoints ? :-p
23:42.52CVirusyeah
23:42.54CViruslet me find it
23:43.08*** join/#openmoko mzb_d800 (n=mzb@ppp108-88.static.internode.on.net)
23:46.48spydonwhen I run openmoko under qemu it is horribly slow is it like that for everybody or is it just my computer? :P
23:47.06*** join/#openmoko [[thufir]] (n=[[thufir@S01060016ec23af88.vc.shawcable.net)
23:47.38mjrit's kind of meant to be horribly slow
23:47.46CMspydon: It's horribly slow in qemu, compared to the real phone
23:47.58CMspydon: Och det är helt klart dags att sova nu! :P
23:48.00mjrfor most stuff you want to just build for x86 and test your stuff running on your real desktop iron
23:48.47mjrlacking a real phone, of course, or not wanting to go there at every turn
23:48.49spydonCM: Mm alltså det kan ta 40-50sek innan jag får någon respons efter att ha tryckt på en knapp :P
23:49.04*** join/#openmoko retracile_ (n=eli@adsl-69-149-55-173.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net)
23:49.14CMspydon: That's slow, what comp are you on? I have a 4 year old amd64 3000+
23:49.19mjrSmör mamma, julsex kommer tillbaka
23:49.30CMmjr: Voi ei.. :P
23:49.39spydonCM: dualcore 2.4ghz with 2gb ram :S
23:49.57CMspydon: Hehe, you suck ;)
23:50.03spydonCM: I shall try again it was a long time since I did it :P
23:50.15CMsucked?
23:50.46blckdoveJag talar inte swenska, kan du talar engelska
23:50.59spydonhehe
23:51.00blckdoveor something.. my swedish is bit rusty ;)
23:51.07CMBootup in qemu was slow last time I tried, but then it worked ok, a few
23:51.08rasterhmmm
23:51.13yoyook sleep time
23:51.17yoyosee ja all
23:51.18rasterquick and totally non-scientific poll
23:51.18CMblckdove: That's good, where are you from?
23:51.31mjrraster, my favourite kind
23:51.47raster*IF* you could choose between incredible performance and cabilities for your openmoko phone
23:51.48*** join/#openmoko t_s_o (n=tso@63.84-49-135.nextgentel.com)
23:51.52blckdoveim .fi... located at us at the moment tho
23:52.11rasterlike the processing power to play console-level games, media centers, hdtv playback and record
23:52.13rasterthat kind of grunt
23:52.16rasterBUT
23:52.21rasteryou had closed drivers
23:52.27rasterwould you make that tradeoff?
23:52.40rasteror you were stuck to something much more pedestrian
23:52.45mjrrather not
23:52.53rasteri.e. - much like your dumb-framebuffer, no accel ro co-processors and qvga
23:52.55rasterbut open...
23:53.17SpeedEvilraster: yes
23:53.30SpeedEvilwith actual like - drivers that worked.
23:53.36rasterwould you make the tradeoff for power or for open?
23:53.40SpeedEvilAnd some sane team that kept them updated.
23:53.45rasterSpeedEvil:  yes. lets just assume really good drivers
23:53.48rasterthey workd flawlessly
23:53.49SpeedEvilSpeaking persnaly.
23:53.51CMHard question, but I think I would be ok with those drivers being closed, at least initally
23:53.51rasterbut were closed
23:53.54SpeedEvilpersonally even.
23:53.59rasterbut in return u got immense power
23:54.08rasterfor me it's a tough call
23:54.14rasterit compromises principles
23:54.14SpeedEvilI don't care about open or closed, as long as they are maintained.
23:54.14rasterBUT
23:54.15mjrnokia and seems google are already doing that closed linux-based system bit, I'd be on #maemo or #android if closed drivers appealed
23:54.23SpeedEvilAnd have reasonable features.
23:54.31rasteryou get the ability toi do all sorts of stuff you never could even contemplate - if it were open,.
23:54.44rasterCM:  yah.
23:54.47rasternvidia drivers are a good example
23:54.56SpeedEvilraster: also a 'death' clause would be nice if possible. If the hardware stops being produced - the chip - they become open
23:54.56rasterif u had a choice of an i810
23:54.56CMraster: I agree that the open in openmoko would not sound so well any more
23:55.03raster(literally an i810 - not a later gen)
23:55.07rasteror a nv 8600gt
23:55.12raster810 has open drivers
23:55.15raster8600gt has cllosed
23:55.20rasterwhich would you go for?
23:55.27raster(but now extrapolate to your phone)
23:55.30mjr810
23:55.42rastermjr:  cool
23:55.50rasterCM:  agreed
23:55.51rasterBUT
23:55.52mjrbut you're making silly non-real-world comparisons
23:55.57rasterthe power is sooooo tempting
23:56.02SpeedEvilCM: The notion that if you hide it in firmware it's suddenly open, but if you put it in a binary blob it's not has always struck me as an insane definition of 'open'.
23:56.04rastermjr: actually.... i am
23:56.08rastermjr:  i'm translating it :)
23:56.17raster(to something most people will have experience with here)
23:56.22CMI think the use case on phones are still not really demanding the power of a really good gpu...
23:56.29rasterSpeedEvil: i agree.
23:56.33CMSpeedEvil: *nod*
23:56.50rasterCM: wiyth vga+ res screens - yes. it is.
23:57.04rasterthe iphone/itouch ui would be impossible without the hoigh-power gpu they have
23:57.12raster(for embedded - its very high power)
23:57.18CMHmm..
23:57.36*** join/#openmoko _ken (n=user@84.92.70.37)
23:57.37rasterif u are thinking phone ui;s of the past - sure
23:57.40SpeedEvilraster: massive FPGA only - open-source CPU! :)
23:57.41rasterbut frankly - thats the past.
23:57.42CMAnd if animations and menus are sluggish, it looks cheap
23:57.55rastersp fgpa's wont cut it power-consumption-wise
23:57.56raster:(
23:58.00SpeedEvilraster: yeah
23:58.12SpeedEvilraster: that's so annoying.
23:58.21mjrraster, fpgas are a  running gag around here, FYI :]
23:58.25rasterperosnally i do cal the line at frimware vs binary blob in kernel
23:58.26CMLike the cheaper nokia or sony-ericsson phones where you have to wait half a second for each menu item when you scroll lists
23:58.36rasterythe kernel or ogl drivers are inside OS memory space
23:58.41rasterthey can segv processes
23:58.45rasteroops kernels
23:59.00*** join/#openmoko dkirker (n=dkirker@69.229.198.200)
23:59.03rastercode on firmware running on a offboard chip/gpu can't
23:59.22raster(well all it can do is misbehave and the OS/userspace side just has to deal with it and be robust)
23:59.26SpeedEvilA _slightly_ more flexible DMA engine would almost fix this along with the framebuffer
23:59.28rasterso i guess its a good line to draw
23:59.34SpeedEvilOne that could do blits
23:59.50SpeedEvilThat'd probably be 'good enough' for much stuff alone.
23:59.54rasterSpeedEvil: u'd need more
23:59.59rastercompositing, alph aand scaling.

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