| 00:00.51 | *** join/#openmoko dkirker (n=dkirker@69.229.198.200) |
| 00:03.44 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 00:06.43 | cesarb | I will have to rebase this thing soon - there are way too many bugfix commits |
| 00:07.53 | SpeedEvil | Go for it! What's the worst that could happen? ( http://youtube.com/watch?v=4OsBc8RqSKU ) |
| 00:08.39 | cesarb | I think last time I played with the neo was soon after gllin -- which is when it spontaneously turned off on me, which motivated me to get annoyed enough at the power management to actually try to do something |
| 00:09.00 | CM | SpeedEvil: Hehe.. Nice movie |
| 00:13.53 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: you reminded me of the slashdot "whatcouldpossiblygowrong" tag :D |
| 00:14.57 | cb22 | hehe i know the fealing cesarb |
| 00:16.50 | cb22 | one thing that made me laugh was when the cocaine vaccine got tagged with iamlegend |
| 00:17.08 | CM | hehe |
| 00:24.41 | cesarb | ...together with OpenMoko-openmoko-devel-image-glibc-ipk-P1-Snapshot-20080116-fic-gta01.rootfs.jffs2 |
| 00:26.36 | *** join/#openmoko kelvinn (n=kelvin@123-243-27-126.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 00:27.09 | borg_ | *drum roll* |
| 00:27.39 | zash_ | cesarb: quick, buy a ups! |
| 00:27.53 | cesarb | zash_: I do have one |
| 00:28.17 | *** join/#openmoko justin111 (n=justinra@71-34-83-170.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 00:28.19 | zash_ | then buy one for me ;) |
| 00:28.23 | cesarb | zash_: but it's a "domestic" UPS, which means it's only for a few minutes with both computers on |
| 00:28.53 | SpeedEvil | I have one of those too. |
| 00:29.03 | SpeedEvil | I attached 10 car batteries and a fan. |
| 00:29.10 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: heh |
| 00:29.14 | SpeedEvil | It stays up longer. |
| 00:29.57 | justin111 | hey speedevil remember me i was here 2 days ago asking dumb questions |
| 00:30.05 | justin111 | about neo |
| 00:30.13 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: my funniest power failure story is when once I came from the university to work, sat down at my chair, logged into the puny linux box below the desk I used as a base, opened mutt... and all the lights came off |
| 00:30.15 | *** join/#openmoko mzb (n=ubernut@ppp108-88.static.internode.on.net) |
| 00:31.00 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: and then the *very* annoying peeeeep from the several small UPSs behind/below several desks, all of them having to be turned off by hand (the monitors? most turned off, not on the UPSen) |
| 00:31.22 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: in the end, it was one of these times (a power failure lasting several hours affecting most of the country) |
| 00:31.38 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: we had to go home after the building got too hot (no AC...) |
| 00:31.51 | cesarb | well, it's flashed. let's boot it and see what happens. |
| 00:32.30 | justin111 | would learning C++ be worth it |
| 00:32.45 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: you mean after "Starting kernel ..."? you won :D |
| 00:33.12 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: unless it's set to some bogus quiet mode, it's way before the cpufreq code starts up |
| 00:33.28 | SpeedEvil | It's what's happened every time I've tried hacking on the kernel (once) |
| 00:33.43 | borg_ | lol |
| 00:35.38 | *** part/#openmoko justin111 (n=justinra@71-34-83-170.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 00:36.07 | *** join/#openmoko justin111 (n=justinra@71-34-83-170.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 00:38.07 | *** join/#openmoko rtp (n=rtp@2a01:5d8:58a6:7960:20e:cff:fedc:7859) |
| 00:38.50 | *** join/#openmoko raster_ (n=raster@124-170-70-202.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 00:40.03 | cesarb | That's annoying. It works fine on qemu. |
| 00:40.19 | Vegar | does it work if you remove your hacks? |
| 00:40.39 | cesarb | Vegar: I'd guess no, since it doesn't even get to the point where they run |
| 00:41.24 | cesarb | Vegar: the most probably cause is that the 2.6.24.veryrecent kernel I'm using as base doesn't work well with the August "so last year" uboot snapshot |
| 00:41.34 | Vegar | hehe |
| 00:44.45 | cesarb | annoyingly, with the old u-boot it works on qemu too |
| 00:45.08 | mwester | cesarb: I thought the 2.6.24 kernel was known *not* to run on the GTA01 |
| 00:45.43 | *** join/#openmoko justin111 (n=justinra@71-34-83-170.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 00:46.20 | cesarb | mwester: urgh |
| 00:46.27 | justin111 | raster are you there |
| 00:47.02 | justin111 | raster: are you there i have a few ?s on neo |
| 00:47.12 | Vegar | cesarb: from the openmoko-kernel ML: "Alas, 2.6.24.x doesn't boot on GTA01 (the kernel doesn't output anything, so it probably dies very early)" |
| 00:47.16 | cesarb | mwester: that's what I get for being "out of the loop" for so long |
| 00:47.22 | raster | justin111: i am here :) |
| 00:47.24 | SpeedEvil | raster: Oh - on rerunning I got 36 on the render - must have been something wierd with throttling. |
| 00:47.57 | raster | SpeedEvil: aaah thats better |
| 00:47.58 | justin111 | raster: would C++ be useful to learn for neo software dev |
| 00:48.01 | raster | yeah |
| 00:48.06 | raster | u got throttled |
| 00:48.08 | raster | :) |
| 00:48.30 | raster | justin111: i guess - yes |
| 00:48.40 | raster | as its a superset of c |
| 00:48.46 | justin111 | raster: oh thats good cuz i picked up "learn C++ in 24 hours |
| 00:48.53 | justin111 | and bought it |
| 00:49.29 | *** join/#openmoko derekcorwin (n=derek@doc-72-47-53-232.cabot.ar.cebridge.net) |
| 00:49.37 | justin111 | raster: what do you think of the android phone |
| 00:49.40 | cesarb | The problem is that one of my patches (the LCD output one) changes significantly from 2.6.24 to 2.6.22 (that code was rewritten for 2.6.24 in a way which made it much easier for me) |
| 00:50.11 | raster | u wont learn it in 24hrs |
| 00:50.12 | raster | :) |
| 00:50.32 | justin111 | yeah i figured that out once i opend the first page |
| 00:50.48 | cesarb | "wah the kernel boot flew by like it was on steroids" <- heh |
| 00:50.49 | raster | as for android - meh |
| 00:51.09 | mwester | cesarb: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-January/000452.html |
| 00:51.15 | raster | they seem to be playing the "we are using linux and open" card for publicity, but really not following it |
| 00:51.16 | derekcorwin | I have a Neo GTA01Bv4, it got shipped with a V3 debug board... was that intended? |
| 00:51.34 | raster | they seem to encourave vendors to add or turn parts of nadroid into closed pieces |
| 00:52.02 | justin111 | i think they wanna be like OM |
| 00:52.02 | raster | also the fact that they have decied that you must program in java (i haven't heard of "native development" currently) just makes me go "ho hum": |
| 00:52.17 | raster | not only that - take java the language and replace its classes with their own |
| 00:52.22 | raster | it doesn't excite me |
| 00:52.27 | justin111 | oh |
| 00:52.27 | raster | overall - pretty ho-hum |
| 00:52.42 | raster | though it may meant it will be easier to have OM run on more phones in future |
| 00:52.42 | raster | :) |
| 00:52.45 | Vegar | it almost sounds microsoft-ish |
| 00:53.07 | justin111 | lol microsoft-ish |
| 00:53.11 | raster | android also have their own UI stack |
| 00:53.14 | raster | like qtopia |
| 00:53.21 | raster | u need to drink the coolaid |
| 00:53.27 | raster | Om uses X |
| 00:53.31 | SpeedEvil | Maybe. If I was designing a phone, and interested in revenue protection, I'd be very careful about making it unflashable by other flashes |
| 00:53.32 | raster | we are about as standard as it gets |
| 00:53.40 | raster | u use whatever toolkit/lib u like |
| 00:53.44 | justin111 | what would you recomend for a nub friendly C++ dev enviorment |
| 00:53.45 | raster | and any language u like |
| 00:54.18 | raster | justin111: dunno - i've been programming since i was 8 |
| 00:54.23 | raster | i am not the right person to ask |
| 00:54.32 | raster | i learnt by a very different route |
| 00:54.40 | justin111 | how? |
| 00:54.41 | SpeedEvil | basic? |
| 00:55.23 | justin111 | ok ill ask the guys in the mandriva channel |
| 00:56.04 | raster | justin111: started 24years ago - on vic20's |
| 00:56.07 | justin111 | who do you think will be the first to jump the gun and add neo HW support |
| 00:56.07 | raster | then c64's |
| 00:56.10 | mwester | justin111: there's really only one GUI dev environment that rules them all: eclipse. Whether it's freindly or not is a question. |
| 00:56.11 | raster | basic then 6502 machine code |
| 00:56.11 | *** join/#openmoko krau (n=cktakaha@189.70.16.210) |
| 00:56.19 | raster | then amiga and 60k asm for 6 years |
| 00:56.29 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x__ (n=alvar@212-41-76-165.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 00:56.35 | raster | learnt c after miranda and modula2 @ university |
| 00:56.41 | mwester | raster: which 6502 system, just out of curiousity? |
| 00:56.42 | raster | but i'd been programming for a long time by then |
| 00:56.50 | raster | mwester: x64 |
| 00:56.53 | raster | err |
| 00:56.54 | raster | c64 |
| 00:57.10 | mwester | Ah. I have my original KIM-1 in a box in the basement... |
| 00:57.26 | *** join/#openmoko Marcel_M (n=Marcel_M@86.59.65.236) |
| 00:58.07 | raster | baaah |
| 00:58.19 | Weiss | hehe....c64 and x64 are quite a lot different.. :) |
| 00:58.22 | raster | what is it with openmoko-browser2 failing |
| 00:58.23 | raster | again |
| 00:58.32 | raster | Weiss: i know |
| 00:58.33 | raster | :) |
| 00:58.36 | raster | i typoed |
| 00:58.38 | raster | x is nect to c |
| 00:58.41 | raster | text |
| 00:58.45 | raster | next |
| 00:58.46 | raster | BAH |
| 00:59.41 | justin111 | what would you recomend for a compiler |
| 00:59.56 | SpeedEvil | gcc is pretty standard. |
| 01:00.46 | raster | not sure you even should choose |
| 01:00.48 | raster | gtcc |
| 01:00.50 | raster | err |
| 01:00.50 | raster | gcc |
| 01:00.55 | raster | u could use icc |
| 01:00.59 | justin111 | what about the intel one is that free or not i remeber reading about it in my linux format magazine |
| 01:01.04 | justin111 | icc |
| 01:01.04 | raster | or if u have solaris - sun's cc |
| 01:01.06 | raster | but frankly |
| 01:01.06 | justin111 | thats what it was |
| 01:01.12 | raster | gcc is everywhere |
| 01:01.18 | justin111 | mandriva linux |
| 01:01.18 | mwester | justin111: gcc with eclipse is the standard; don't even consider anything else if you're serious. |
| 01:01.22 | SpeedEvil | And compiler is - almost - irrelevant. |
| 01:01.49 | mwester | Microsoft's Visual Studio with their compiler is professional-grade as well, but it costs big $$$ |
| 01:01.49 | raster | u cant use icc for corss-compiling develoipment for opnmoko for example |
| 01:02.04 | raster | in the end all compilers pretty much have the same way to control them |
| 01:02.14 | raster | icc claims to create better x86 code than gcc - quite possible |
| 01:02.22 | SpeedEvil | And for beginning stuff, there isn't really mch in it. |
| 01:02.33 | raster | but i wouldnt only go playing with other compilers once u have mastered everything |
| 01:02.39 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: oh - setfb |
| 01:02.46 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: ? |
| 01:02.59 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: you can vary the clock frequency of the fb down quite far before it stops displaying |
| 01:03.22 | SpeedEvil | So you could simply ignore that bit for the moment. |
| 01:03.32 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: neat. So you're proposing I for now ignore it like I'm doing with I2C... sounds like a plan |
| 01:03.34 | raster | SpeedEvil: trying to save power? |
| 01:04.11 | SpeedEvil | raster: no - proposing that cesarb try without the proper LCD freq code on his cpufreq patches |
| 01:04.52 | raster | oooh |
| 01:04.53 | raster | cpufreq |
| 01:04.54 | raster | joy! |
| 01:04.59 | raster | joy is me |
| 01:05.01 | mwester | cesarb: you could post a note on the kernel dev list mentioning your situation; I'm pretty certain folks would be very interested, and perhaps finding and fixing the GTA01 problem will become a higher priority. |
| 01:05.08 | cesarb | raster: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:CesarB/cpufreq |
| 01:05.14 | raster | now if only suspend and unsuspend worked... |
| 01:05.19 | raster | on my gta02 |
| 01:05.20 | raster | :) |
| 01:07.28 | raster | OW |
| 01:07.41 | raster | changing freq is nasty |
| 01:07.55 | Vegar | would it be inappropriate to ask you about e17, raster? |
| 01:07.56 | raster | thats a lot of drivers and device IO stuff that will hiccup every time u change |
| 01:08.11 | justin111 | whats a network that will work with neo |
| 01:08.13 | raster | Vegar: depends what u are asking :) |
| 01:08.20 | Vegar | raster: ETA? |
| 01:08.57 | raster | we dont have an ETA |
| 01:09.09 | raster | u can use it from CVS if u want |
| 01:09.25 | Vegar | is there much left to consider it release ready? |
| 01:09.41 | justin111 | raster: wasnt the consumer version supposed to be ready at 07 end |
| 01:10.11 | SpeedEvil | It was supposed to be ready in Umm. March I think was the earliest time. |
| 01:10.12 | raster | Vegar: see the tracker on enlightenment.org |
| 01:10.14 | SpeedEvil | (last march) |
| 01:10.14 | raster | a TODO list |
| 01:10.16 | SpeedEvil | (gta01) |
| 01:10.30 | SpeedEvil | oh - not gta01 |
| 01:11.01 | Vegar | ah |
| 01:11.05 | Vegar | thanks, raster |
| 01:11.05 | raster | okies |
| 01:11.11 | Vegar | didn't see that top right menu |
| 01:11.12 | raster | time for a new battery image |
| 01:13.14 | *** join/#openmoko tg_ (i=tg@digit.drk.hu) |
| 01:13.39 | justin111 | i <3 KDE4 |
| 01:13.58 | cesarb | raster: to prevent these hiccups, I'm adding code to the problematic drivers to "quiesce" them before the change |
| 01:14.19 | cesarb | raster: the serial is the nastiest of them (draining FIFOs, faking a full FIFO...) |
| 01:15.22 | raster | are you going to async drain and rely on driver interupts back to cpufreq to know when u can switch? |
| 01:15.28 | raster | or going to busywait? |
| 01:18.40 | cesarb | raster: busywait :D |
| 01:18.40 | raster | ewww! |
| 01:18.40 | raster | :-P |
| 01:18.40 | raster | so we will hiccup |
| 01:18.41 | raster | just cpu-wise |
| 01:18.41 | raster | cpu will be locked waiting for stuff to quiesce |
| 01:18.41 | raster | could take a few ms |
| 01:18.42 | cesarb | raster: the cpufreq architecture doesn't allow me to do it in interrupt style, it would need another phase (some sort of pre-prechange notifier) |
| 01:18.42 | raster | bad cpufreq |
| 01:18.42 | raster | bad |
| 01:18.43 | cesarb | raster: the idea is to first make it work |
| 01:18.43 | cesarb | raster: then start trying to make it nicer |
| 01:19.40 | raster | well i guess thats fair enough |
| 01:19.53 | raster | but i wouldnt consider it "done" without being abel to do it without hiccups |
| 01:20.28 | cesarb | I could also make it _outside_ the cpufreq core (doing a "s3c2410 ultra-elite pre-pre-change notifier"), but that would be even more of a hack |
| 01:20.29 | raster | (beyond what is hardware limitations - eg the clock has to quiesce for 20 or 30 cycles before stabilisiing at a new freq) |
| 01:20.56 | cesarb | raster: 20 or 30 cycles? try 150us (which is the PLL settling time) |
| 01:21.01 | raster | well cpufreq would be good |
| 01:21.13 | raster | existin g cpufreq twiddling userspace stuff will then "just work" |
| 01:21.24 | raster | cesarb: no idea how much it is |
| 01:21.28 | *** join/#openmoko CVirus (n=GoD@196.205.193.51) |
| 01:21.34 | cesarb | raster: if I can make cpufreq work well enough that it can be used to change freqs while the user isn't looking (like when mostly idle at the interface), that would already be very good |
| 01:21.42 | cesarb | raster: me neither ;-) |
| 01:21.43 | raster | i was reading the datasheet at some time and noticed there was a clock stabilisation period |
| 01:22.26 | SpeedEvil | It'd be so nice if some of PCLK could be taken from the 12MHz clock |
| 01:22.44 | SpeedEvil | The serial and IIS for example |
| 01:23.03 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: agreed |
| 01:23.05 | raster | its going to be hard to know when to clockshift |
| 01:23.07 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: the timer too |
| 01:23.17 | raster | especially clockshift up |
| 01:23.22 | justin111 | will GTA02 ever have 3d accel |
| 01:23.27 | SpeedEvil | justin111: yes |
| 01:23.37 | raster | the existing governors dont do a bad job on desktop cpu's |
| 01:23.40 | SpeedEvil | justin111: when the drivers will support it is an open question |
| 01:23.47 | raster | justin111: no/very unlikely |
| 01:23.49 | cesarb | raster: well, I'm just using the kernel hacker's way of avoiding these dillemas |
| 01:24.13 | cesarb | raster: just make people use the "userspace" governor and the problem is solved :D |
| 01:24.15 | raster | cesarb: by making it 'someone elses problem" |
| 01:24.16 | raster | :) |
| 01:24.33 | cesarb | raster: after all, it's now /userspace/'s problem :D |
| 01:24.42 | raster | yeah |
| 01:24.45 | raster | bastards |
| 01:24.47 | raster | :-P |
| 01:25.25 | CVirus | hehe |
| 01:27.08 | cesarb | raster: no, seriously, I am _really_ proposing that neod or its sucessor take care of the frequency decisions. After all, it knows (or at least if you look at it just so _should_ know) what the user is supposed to be thinking of doing at each moment. |
| 01:27.52 | cesarb | raster: for instance, it can know that the screen is off, there is no call or music going on, and the bluetooth is enabled, so something around 40000 would work |
| 01:28.12 | raster | oh sure |
| 01:28.29 | raster | but if screen is on and i'm staring at my launcher menu |
| 01:28.32 | raster | what should it be? |
| 01:28.33 | raster | :) |
| 01:28.37 | SpeedEvil | 0 |
| 01:28.44 | raster | hhahaha |
| 01:28.50 | SpeedEvil | It should be in suspend with the accel chip refreshing the display |
| 01:29.08 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: I'm thinking of GTA01, my code doesn't even start to run on GTA02 ;-) |
| 01:29.10 | SpeedEvil | If we're talking of the ideal. |
| 01:29.24 | raster | i would say no to that |
| 01:29.25 | raster | :) |
| 01:29.31 | SpeedEvil | As fast as is needed to run the display without flicker |
| 01:29.35 | raster | as at any moment i could press the srceen to try scroll or launch |
| 01:29.36 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: (it has a "is this the exact CPU used on GTA01?" check) |
| 01:29.51 | raster | and now i need to wait for an unsuspend to just begin to react to my user input |
| 01:30.03 | cesarb | raster: after you press the screen, it has enough time to rev up before you notice something's odd |
| 01:30.08 | SpeedEvil | raster: The fun part is getting suspend fast enough for that |
| 01:30.09 | justin111 | i just got 2 very diffrent answers |
| 01:30.20 | justin111 | spped says yes raster says no on 3d wtf |
| 01:30.26 | cesarb | raster: it's not that slow |
| 01:30.34 | raster | justin111: the answer is no/unlikely |
| 01:30.45 | SpeedEvil | justin111: there is a 2d/ 3d accel chip in GTA02 |
| 01:30.53 | SpeedEvil | According to released information. |
| 01:31.08 | SpeedEvil | If that's changing - seriously, should the wiki be updated? |
| 01:31.17 | raster | cesarb: an extra 50ms or 100ms is a long time in gui/interaction land |
| 01:31.34 | raster | SpeedEvil: the chip is there |
| 01:31.36 | SpeedEvil | raster: as is an extra hour of battery life. |
| 01:31.38 | raster | there are no drivers for the 3d |
| 01:31.45 | raster | no opengl for it |
| 01:31.51 | SpeedEvil | raster: It should of course be tunable. |
| 01:32.00 | raster | sped your backlight is probably chewing most of the power anyway |
| 01:32.01 | raster | :) |
| 01:32.03 | SpeedEvil | I said the drivers were a different matter. |
| 01:32.19 | SpeedEvil | raster: Sure - but 300mW of CPU that you can not use isn't really trivial. |
| 01:32.44 | SpeedEvil | Well - probably less on GTA02 with a functional voltage and freq changing |
| 01:33.25 | raster | in the general use case whihc is - if the menu is up and screen on theuser likely is interacting or is just about to ... you want to stay alive to respond ASAP |
| 01:33.46 | SpeedEvil | raster: And I want to be able to tune it either way. - ideally. |
| 01:34.15 | raster | sure |
| 01:34.20 | SpeedEvil | raster: Way back - it was stated that the glamo docs would at some point be rewritten in a form that made it possible for others to work on driver stuff. |
| 01:34.26 | raster | but u need to chose the point at whihc to suspend |
| 01:34.31 | SpeedEvil | raster: I assume that's not likely any time soon. |
| 01:34.43 | raster | chosing that point is hard if you leave things partly usable |
| 01:34.47 | raster | eg screen is on |
| 01:34.48 | SpeedEvil | raster: not if it's fast enough that the user accepts the delay. |
| 01:35.14 | raster | SpeedEvil: we arent rewriting the docs |
| 01:35.17 | raster | no time for that |
| 01:35.27 | raster | and the docs are not able to be released without an nda |
| 01:36.00 | raster | also the time required to write opengl libs for the glamo will likely be the lifetime of the gta02 as a product |
| 01:36.11 | justin111 | what would be better to run a HTTP server from mandriva or fedora 8 |
| 01:36.19 | raster | at whihc point the value of the effort in writing them has pretty much gone to 0 |
| 01:36.21 | raster | :) |
| 01:36.26 | raster | (well from our point of view) |
| 01:36.28 | justin111 | wait nvm it has a OS allready |
| 01:36.36 | raster | of course if we use the glamo in our next phone - yes. it's worth it |
| 01:37.07 | SpeedEvil | raster: Thanks :/ |
| 01:37.26 | raster | SpeedEvil: the specs are not simple |
| 01:37.34 | raster | they are only spartanly documented for 3d |
| 01:37.48 | raster | it will be a lot of work to write them. |
| 01:37.51 | SpeedEvil | It's what - a binary blob with sketchy docs?> |
| 01:37.51 | raster | it sucks - i know. |
| 01:37.55 | raster | also note |
| 01:38.05 | raster | the glamo can only do 3d at a MAX of 511x511 |
| 01:38.10 | raster | it cant even to 640x480 |
| 01:38.23 | cesarb | raster: 5_11_? why not 512? |
| 01:38.29 | raster | no render-to-texture |
| 01:38.31 | *** join/#openmoko niclone (n=nicolas@2a01:5d8:52e8:7607:218:deff:fea5:ed26) |
| 01:38.34 | SpeedEvil | It can't do a static border round the edge? |
| 01:38.37 | raster | 256x256 max tex size |
| 01:38.38 | raster | etc. |
| 01:39.05 | raster | cesarb: i am guessing they use 1 of the 3d buyffer pixels as a counter or flag pixel for that row/column |
| 01:39.17 | cesarb | raster: well, for the neo, what matters most is the 2d accel, isn't it? you aren't making a hollywood os... |
| 01:39.47 | raster | cesarb: correct. |
| 01:39.52 | raster | our focus is on good 2d accel |
| 01:40.03 | raster | as best we can |
| 01:40.08 | raster | even then the glamo has issues |
| 01:40.19 | raster | access to video ram is a measly 30mb/sec |
| 01:40.26 | *** join/#openmoko Pupeno- (n=Pupeno@dsl-37-170.dsl.netsource.ie) |
| 01:40.34 | raster | so writing new pixels across is painfulyl slow |
| 01:40.46 | SpeedEvil | What about video playback? |
| 01:40.48 | raster | we will get DMA working along the way to alleviate that pain |
| 01:40.56 | raster | xvideo is supported |
| 01:41.06 | SpeedEvil | I mean the decompression support |
| 01:41.09 | raster | but again - u are writing yuv pixels across this pissy but with the cpu |
| 01:41.14 | raster | no async dma currently |
| 01:41.28 | raster | xvmc in theory is possible- but currently not working |
| 01:41.39 | raster | its a reasonable bit of work |
| 01:42.17 | SpeedEvil | Is it a plan to get that working? |
| 01:42.18 | raster | for now xvmc is a lice luxury to look at later |
| 01:42.34 | cesarb | raster: well, there's ONE thing where you could use 3d effects on a phone |
| 01:42.39 | raster | we do have normal xvideo support (yuv) and that will probably have to do |
| 01:42.40 | cesarb | raster: rotating cube effects. |
| 01:43.03 | raster | the video bus upload/download is a major bottleneck as it keeps the cpu busy in waitstates writign at 30mb/sec |
| 01:43.13 | raster | sucking cpu power like a hoover |
| 01:43.47 | *** join/#openmoko rtp (n=rtp@2a01:5d8:58a6:7960:20e:cff:fedc:7859) |
| 01:43.54 | balrog-kun | how much RAM does the glamo have onchip? |
| 01:44.03 | raster | 8m |
| 01:44.18 | justin111 | raster what do you do at Om |
| 01:44.23 | *** join/#openmoko ken_ (n=user@84.92.70.37) |
| 01:44.31 | balrog-kun | X could keep a reasonable amount of images there |
| 01:45.34 | SpeedEvil | raster: What's the priority of video decode assist? I.E. is it likely before the copyright on the docs for the glamo runs out? :) |
| 01:46.04 | balrog-kun | even if you use DMA, you still have to be generating the data to send at the rate of 30 MB/s, imho the bus is not a real bottleneck |
| 01:46.26 | SpeedEvil | 30MB/s is not much |
| 01:46.39 | SpeedEvil | mplayer was getting QVGA*2*25Hz |
| 01:46.42 | SpeedEvil | which is ... |
| 01:46.44 | balrog-kun | the data would be comming either from the CPU beign generated at the same time it's being sent it to glamo, or from some media or RAM |
| 01:46.59 | SpeedEvil | 38M |
| 01:47.04 | balrog-kun | the media could be NAND or SD, they probably don't go much faster than 30 MB/s |
| 01:47.06 | SpeedEvil | (on the 266Mhz) |
| 01:47.42 | balrog-kun | so RAM remains as the only place that could be sending data at a much faster pace than the bus speed (30 MB/s) |
| 01:47.48 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: no |
| 01:47.55 | balrog-kun | so equally well the data could be just kept in the target ram |
| 01:48.00 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: the current mplayer on GTA01 can generate 38M/s to the framebuffer. |
| 01:48.10 | SpeedEvil | (from mpg or avi) |
| 01:48.13 | *** join/#openmoko alphaone (n=alphaone@2001:638:602:af01:0:0:0:1) |
| 01:48.28 | balrog-kun | SpeedEvil: is that a result from testing? |
| 01:48.34 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: yes |
| 01:48.40 | raster | justin111: lead architect - graphics |
| 01:48.54 | balrog-kun | SpeedEvil: but that's probably the maximum it can do on this cpu? |
| 01:48.58 | cesarb | JFFS2 warning: (1416) jffs2_sum_write_sumnode: Not enough space for summary, padsize = -219 |
| 01:49.00 | cesarb | (on qemu) |
| 01:49.03 | cesarb | what's that? |
| 01:49.10 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: mplayer will - just about - achieve 320*240*25fps on an unoptimised mplayer on your average VCD rate AVI or MPG |
| 01:49.10 | raster | balrog-kun: reasonable - yes. depends what you wil do. *IF* we move to a composited style environment where now all apps/windows/dialogs etc. are pixmaps - that will fill up fast |
| 01:49.35 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: on a GTA01 at 266M |
| 01:49.44 | balrog-kun | 38MB/s is comparable with the 30MB/s, not like an order of magnitude higher where you could speak of a bottleneck |
| 01:49.44 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: though with no sound. |
| 01:49.45 | raster | SpeedEvil: ummm copyright runs out on docs? :) |
| 01:50.01 | raster | balrog-kun: the bus is soooo a bottleneck |
| 01:50.15 | SpeedEvil | raster: Assuming it's not extended past its current 80 years or so. |
| 01:50.35 | balrog-kun | cesarb: that's a message from kernel's jffs2 driver, it is probably not connected with qemu (but might be.. too) |
| 01:50.52 | cesarb | balrog-kun: I added (on qemu) so people would not get worried ;-) |
| 01:50.57 | *** join/#openmoko Kryczek (i=kryczek@faked.name) |
| 01:51.09 | balrog-kun | oh ok |
| 01:51.27 | balrog-kun | cesarb: i get that or similar things a lot on the real hw too and don't get really worried :P |
| 01:51.34 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 01:51.50 | raster | balrog-kun: i have done number crunshing and benchmarks - i know evas's performance test suite will see a 40-50% speedup in fps *IF* we implemented DMA. rememebr when you copy data across the bus *WITH THe CPU* you lock the cpu into wait states |
| 01:51.56 | raster | waiting for the bus to accept data |
| 01:52.08 | raster | that is cpu you cannot use for decoding the next frame of video |
| 01:52.10 | raster | or whatever |
| 01:52.28 | *** join/#openmoko RedDog (n=reddog@mastersword.de) |
| 01:52.39 | balrog-kun | raster: yes, but the DMA is on the s3c24xx side, not really a question of the bus which is between the chips as i understand |
| 01:52.52 | Robot101 | bkruse_home: hey ;D |
| 01:53.01 | raster | the dma engine there can copy across that bus |
| 01:53.01 | bkruse_home | Robot101: hello :] |
| 01:53.07 | raster | thus freeign the cpu to do its work |
| 01:53.10 | balrog-kun | raster: and DMA should work as you said |
| 01:53.10 | Robot101 | bkruse_home: we've been trying to talk with OM about Telepathy for a long time, but they've not been very good at responding to our mails |
| 01:53.18 | balrog-kun | it's just a question of implementing it right? |
| 01:53.24 | balrog-kun | in software |
| 01:53.37 | raster | Robot101: trust me - we are itnerested/have talked about it |
| 01:53.43 | raster | but we're a bit of mess internally atm |
| 01:53.53 | Robot101 | bkruse_home: we think it makes great sense (obviously :D), and we already have working backends for SIP, XMPP (Gtalk or Jingle), IRC, link-local XMPP, and libpurple AIM/ICQ/MSN/... |
| 01:54.09 | bkruse_home | Robot101: that is not surprising, once we get good clients (mokoiax will help with this) then the backends will be there... |
| 01:54.09 | raster | until we have a phone stack that is reliable and works we are not really into junping into whole infrastructure changes |
| 01:54.17 | bkruse_home | raster: completely agree. |
| 01:54.25 | bkruse_home | raster: mess internally? |
| 01:54.31 | bkruse_home | :/ |
| 01:54.51 | cesarb | 2.6.24 doesn't have these extremly annoying adc_read log spam :P |
| 01:54.52 | raster | balrog-kun: and i can generate much more than 30mb/xszec of video data to the screen\ |
| 01:54.58 | bkruse_home | Robot101: dbus implementation in pidgin rocks |
| 01:55.01 | Robot101 | raster: ah, right. hm. |
| 01:55.08 | raster | Robot101: trust me - it's on my radar |
| 01:55.08 | bkruse_home | raster: thats sad to hear, do you work for om? |
| 01:55.10 | Robot101 | bkruse_home: telepathy rocks more. :) |
| 01:55.19 | bkruse_home | Robot101: agreed :] i will implement for it |
| 01:55.20 | balrog-kun | raster: on the Neo1973 CPU? |
| 01:55.30 | raster | i want to see telephony integrated into a general communicatiosn stack and api |
| 01:55.32 | bkruse_home | raster: mokoiax == start of voip movement on OM |
| 01:55.32 | Robot101 | bkruse_home: it's designed to keep the connections open as shared backends and then you can pick them up from any UI component |
| 01:55.39 | raster | i dont want to see 3 IM apps |
| 01:55.41 | raster | an sms app |
| 01:55.48 | Robot101 | bkruse_home: if you want any help with telepathy, we're happy to help |
| 01:55.54 | bkruse_home | Robot101: perfect |
| 01:55.55 | Robot101 | bkruse_home: #telepathy as well |
| 01:55.59 | raster | and god knows what else when everytthing could be integrated trhough your CHOISE of 1 or more ui's for messaging |
| 01:56.07 | bkruse_home | agreed... |
| 01:56.07 | bkruse_home | raster: I want do that as a second goal, integrate into the dialer app itself |
| 01:56.07 | raster | same for gsm voice/voip etc. |
| 01:56.17 | Robot101 | bkruse_home: but IAX is something I think a lot of people could be happy to see in telepathy |
| 01:56.21 | Robot101 | raster: right :) |
| 01:56.24 | raster | but frankly - we need gsm voice and sms and so on all workign reliably first |
| 01:56.34 | raster | before integrating into a larger framework |
| 01:56.41 | balrog-kun | it runs at 266 MHz or 400 MHz, assuming one byte generated by five instruction (not really realistic) you get ~50 MB/s already, only slightly saturating the bus |
| 01:56.44 | raster | just need to keep the # of fires to fight down to a minimu7m |
| 01:56.49 | bkruse_home | raster: well, the movement for getting it integrated into dialer would help the hole "integrated into" and would be an example for others, instead of just third party apps being ported... |
| 01:57.03 | raster | bkruse_home: yes i do - i'm the gatekeeper for pixels :) |
| 01:57.07 | Robot101 | I'm a little worried the phonekit APIs will head off in one direction which isn't necessarily compatible with telepathy, and will end up with one abstraction on top of another in a future iteration |
| 01:57.08 | raster | (work for OM) |
| 01:57.19 | bkruse_home | raster: perfect, so you think Michael is a cool guy? |
| 01:57.25 | bkruse_home | the "community relations"? |
| 01:57.32 | raster | balrog-kun: yes - on both the gta01 and gta02. |
| 01:57.59 | SpeedEvil | robtaylor: the fundamental problem at the moment is that OM core dev team is way understaffed for what they are trying to do. |
| 01:58.00 | raster | Robot101: dont worry - i heard about telepathy last year in march @ bossa |
| 01:58.01 | Robot101 | even having some OMs would let us play with hooking up some tp frontent to the GSM hardware, maybe basing off the gnome phone manager tp-phony stuff hadess was doing |
| 01:58.03 | SpeedEvil | rober |
| 01:58.05 | raster | i know of it and what it does |
| 01:58.06 | SpeedEvil | robo: |
| 01:58.06 | raster | :) |
| 01:58.23 | raster | balrog-kun: ok let me prepare some math for you |
| 01:58.36 | Robot101 | SpeedEvil: if only there were some companies who could support building solutions around telepathy... :P |
| 01:58.56 | Robot101 | we can do UI hacking and integration and stuff too |
| 01:59.01 | SpeedEvil | Robot101: one major annoyance is that you can't do data over GSM voive. |
| 01:59.01 | raster | i did ACTUAL benchmarks |
| 01:59.10 | raster | real life - on the gta02 |
| 01:59.13 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@dsbg-4db7b569.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 01:59.16 | SpeedEvil | Robot101: as GSM data is very expensive in many cases. |
| 01:59.24 | raster | i did the benchmarks of rendering with the cpu in system memory |
| 01:59.25 | Robot101 | raster: right, I was sitting next to you extoling the virtues of telepathy at bossa... :) |
| 01:59.27 | raster | stuff like alpha blending |
| 01:59.30 | raster | interpoalted scaling |
| 01:59.35 | raster | yuv->rgb video |
| 01:59.36 | raster | etc. |
| 01:59.47 | raster | Robot101: indeed u were :) |
| 01:59.47 | Robot101 | raster: did anyone do any E/D-Bus (E-Bus? :D) stuff as yet? |
| 01:59.54 | balrog-kun | raster: all this done by the CPU, not the glamo, right? |
| 01:59.59 | raster | rb e-dbus exists - no telepathy abstraction yet tho |
| 02:00.02 | raster | :) |
| 02:00.11 | raster | Robot101: as i said - on radar |
| 02:00.14 | borg_ | Robot101: you know of freesmartphones.org? there is a first dbus interface specification |
| 02:00.15 | Robot101 | cool |
| 02:00.15 | raster | balrog-kun: yes |
| 02:00.36 | raster | balrog-kun: wait - now. i hakced up the engine to "skip" the "memcpy()" from system ram to video ram |
| 02:00.39 | raster | *IF* we had DMA |
| 02:00.46 | raster | that is effectively what we woudl skip |
| 02:00.55 | balrog-kun | yeah, let's assume we have DMA in place |
| 02:00.57 | raster | the cpu would not have to spend cycles WAITING on a copy |
| 02:01.00 | raster | it could be async |
| 02:01.13 | raster | my benchark went from 13.55 to 20.23 |
| 02:01.19 | cesarb | raster: it could still wait if the bus gets too busy |
| 02:01.30 | cesarb | raster: so the increase might not be all that |
| 02:01.32 | raster | that difference between 13.55 and 20.23 *IS the cost fo copying across the video bus with the cpu |
| 02:01.44 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: as a clarification - my PII/300 got 35 |
| 02:01.48 | Robot101 | bkruse_home: but yeah, the perfect goal in my mind would be that the usual dialer or messaging app would sit atop Telepathy and could show IAX or SIP calling in the same way as built-in GSM |
| 02:01.49 | raster | you likely will get most of that |
| 02:01.52 | *** join/#openmoko gopi (n=gopi@adsl-065-012-206-033.sip.bct.bellsouth.net) |
| 02:01.58 | raster | as sure the dam engine will compete for memory cycles to access ram |
| 02:02.07 | raster | but that will only soak up 30mb/sec of mem bandwidth |
| 02:02.19 | raster | total mem bandwidht is 160m/sec (memcopy mem -> mem) |
| 02:02.26 | cesarb | raster: agreed, you will likely get most of that, but not all of that ;-) |
| 02:02.34 | cesarb | raster: wow. more than enough. |
| 02:02.38 | raster | Robot101: yup. i'd love to see that |
| 02:02.41 | Robot101 | bkruse_home: what were you planning to do with the media? you can re-use the telepathy stream engine with gstreamer/farsight to do RTP codec negotiation and codec setup |
| 02:02.46 | raster | cesarb: yup. |
| 02:02.55 | raster | se so thats a 49% speedup in theory |
| 02:03.01 | Robot101 | bkruse_home: at the very simplest that could just be making one localhost UDP socket for each call |
| 02:03.04 | raster | but in reality we will see about 40% speedup is my guess |
| 02:03.05 | *** join/#openmoko gopi (n=gopi@adsl-065-012-206-033.sip.bct.bellsouth.net) |
| 02:03.06 | balrog-kun | but not 160m going out of the S3C24XX and going into the Glamo |
| 02:03.08 | borg_ | Robot101: http://projects.linuxtogo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/trunk/standards/otapi/?root=smartphones |
| 02:03.15 | raster | ASSUMING 1. x is smart enough NOT to busywait on the dma |
| 02:03.17 | cesarb | well, let's go AGAIN, this time with 2.6.22.5 instead of 2.6.24.veryrecent. |
| 02:03.27 | borg_ | Robot101: now is the time where you can help forming the specification |
| 02:03.29 | raster | and 2. the x client is smart enough not to busywait on the xshmputimage coyp to x |
| 02:03.33 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: 30*1.5 = 46M though |
| 02:03.36 | raster | 2. is already done right in evas |
| 02:03.40 | raster | i know - i made sure of it recently |
| 02:03.41 | raster | :) |
| 02:03.58 | Robot101 | borg_: we don't really want to write another API, we've already got a real-time communications API, it's existed for 2 years, and it's called telepathy. we just need a couple of interfaces and we can cover all the GSM functionality too. we just added a call merge/split interface actually |
| 02:04.18 | balrog-kun | SpeedEvil: if that's the absolute maximum and the bus'es limitation is 30 M/s then i'm totally ok with that |
| 02:04.24 | raster | Robot101: btw - going to bossa this year? |
| 02:04.30 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: it's nowhere near absolute maximum |
| 02:04.40 | cesarb | ok, this time for sure! *knocks on wood* |
| 02:04.45 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: well - actually - it's close I suppose |
| 02:04.54 | Robot101 | raster: they didn't ask me to speak (thus far), meanies... I'm pondering it but I'm not quite sure if I can spare the time/effort |
| 02:05.04 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: tehre is little point in pushing more than 90M/s across the bus. |
| 02:05.04 | raster | Robot101: fair enough :) |
| 02:05.15 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: (24 bit * 640*480*60Hz) |
| 02:05.21 | Robot101 | raster: I've already got a holiday booked that month so it might get a little silly if I went to .br too :D |
| 02:05.28 | balrog-kun | SpeedEvil: and there's a question if that's even possible on the cpu side |
| 02:05.30 | Robot101 | will see nearer the time |
| 02:05.32 | raster | Robot101: fair enough |
| 02:05.33 | raster | :) |
| 02:05.45 | *** part/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 02:05.49 | Robot101 | depends how many more people go "aww, you not going?" :D |
| 02:05.55 | balrog-kun | i mean, we could be talking of a "bottleneck" if all elements in the system could do much higher than 30MB/s, but that's not the case afaik |
| 02:05.59 | Robot101 | oh and some suprious business justification, yeah. :D |
| 02:06.01 | raster | balrog-kun: the fact is - at 30m/sec if you need to copy 30m of data - your cpu will be stuck for 1 second doing NOTHING but a copy |
| 02:06.07 | raster | it cannot calculate anythign else |
| 02:06.23 | Robot101 | borg_: http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/spec.html |
| 02:06.24 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: Given that mplayer can hit 57 (extrapolated) on 400Mhz hardware - it's not a problem |
| 02:06.29 | raster | sure u can context switch away |
| 02:06.45 | raster | and then u just make the total time ende to end longer than 1 s as u spent intermediate cycles doing other things |
| 02:06.55 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: assuming that GTA02 is 266/400ths faster |
| 02:06.57 | raster | but 1 sec of cpu time will be used up just copying 30m of data |
| 02:07.08 | raster | thats 1 sec of cpu time lost - forever. u can never do anytgni else |
| 02:07.17 | borg_ | Robot101: yes, i am looking on it, imo that is on another abstraction level |
| 02:07.17 | balrog-kun | raster: well, we're not interested in what happens on the cpu side, only about the rate of the data that goes out of it |
| 02:07.19 | SpeedEvil | and a CPU second of power |
| 02:07.23 | raster | if the bus was so ultra-fast that it didnt matter - i'd be less worried |
| 02:07.32 | raster | balrog-kun: we ARE interested on the cpu side |
| 02:07.54 | SpeedEvil | If you get DMA working, the bus doesn't speed up? the CPU busy-wait just goes away? |
| 02:08.00 | SpeedEvil | ->raster |
| 02:08.05 | raster | sure the 30m/sec will limit - put a maximum upper limit on the fps of any video output |
| 02:08.09 | Robot101 | borg_: but this suggests you have one thing that talks to the hardware, exposes some abstraction over d-bus, then another thing talks to it over d-bus and exposes a different abstraction over d-bus |
| 02:08.20 | raster | SpeedEvil: bus wont speedup i dont think |
| 02:08.20 | borg_ | right |
| 02:08.32 | raster | SpeedEvil: as best i know now we just lose the busywait |
| 02:08.39 | balrog-kun | raster: not if there's a lower upper limit already put on the system by a different part |
| 02:08.45 | *** join/#openmoko gopi_ (n=gopi@adsl-065-012-206-033.sip.bct.bellsouth.net) |
| 02:09.07 | raster | balrog-kun: the limit that keeps fps down will be the video bus |
| 02:09.12 | SpeedEvil | Anyway - it's fixed now and won't change. |
| 02:09.16 | raster | if u are lucky its screenrefresh |
| 02:09.18 | Robot101 | borg_: which seems pretty daft on a resource-constrained device. why would you want/need two? if you can provide the GSM functionality through the existing tp APIs, then just add any extra APIs to the service for stuff that wasn't covered (or add functionality to the tp spec to cover it) |
| 02:09.18 | raster | eg 60fps |
| 02:09.39 | raster | if uyour limit is screen refresh (60fp for example) @ 640x480 |
| 02:09.46 | raster | then you are indeed a very very very lucky person |
| 02:09.55 | Robot101 | borg_: then there's no confusion/choice when writing applications, if you want to control a call there's one way to do it, and hey, that way works for SIP or IAX calls too |
| 02:09.57 | balrog-kun | agreed |
| 02:10.02 | raster | SpeedEvil: it actually can do a lot of accel |
| 02:10.04 | borg_ | Robot101: write to the freesmartphone mailinglist with examples |
| 02:10.06 | ljp | raster: does the 02 use the same gsm chip? |
| 02:10.08 | raster | SpeedEvil: given good enough code... :) |
| 02:10.13 | raster | ljp: yes |
| 02:10.14 | borg_ | Robot101: how whould a conference call look like? |
| 02:10.16 | balrog-kun | but that afaik won't happen because of the cpu limitations and other |
| 02:10.30 | borg_ | Robot101: how do i get things from the adress book of the sim card? |
| 02:10.33 | SpeedEvil | raster: I was more wondering if some things might end up faster just deleting the accel chip. |
| 02:10.48 | Robot101 | borg_: a GSM conf call? set up one channel, hold it, set up another, call merge |
| 02:10.51 | raster | SpeedEvil: frankly - vidoe would be faster |
| 02:11.05 | raster | :/ |
| 02:11.20 | Robot101 | borg_: SIM card entries can appear through the contact list interface |
| 02:11.22 | SpeedEvil | I wonder how much the glamo adds to the BOM. |
| 02:11.24 | raster | put it this way |
| 02:11.30 | raster | some things are better on the glamo |
| 02:11.34 | SpeedEvil | But it's a bit late to do such a major change. |
| 02:11.45 | ljp | good, becuase i dont want to write another bloody phonevendor plugin |
| 02:11.48 | raster | blits are 1. done by the gfx chip and async to any cpu overhead and faster than a cpu can do it |
| 02:11.50 | raster | as with fills |
| 02:11.58 | raster | and all the basic 2d stuff |
| 02:12.01 | *** join/#openmoko gopi_ (n=gopi@adsl-065-012-206-033.sip.bct.bellsouth.net) |
| 02:12.03 | raster | if u want to get fancy |
| 02:12.05 | raster | eg xrender |
| 02:12.08 | raster | we are in trouble |
| 02:12.10 | raster | big trouble |
| 02:12.13 | borg_ | Robot101: what is with sim card configuration, like changing pin |
| 02:12.18 | raster | the glamo can only accel a fairly small subset of xrender |
| 02:12.23 | Robot101 | borg_: thats where you might add a new interface |
| 02:12.25 | raster | so u'd be forced to software fallbacks |
| 02:12.34 | SpeedEvil | raster: and probably not the accel subset your app'll pick. |
| 02:12.50 | raster | and then u have that 30mb/sec straw to vidoe ram to make that gloriously painful as u copy pixels to and from video ram to operate on them with the cpu |
| 02:12.52 | Robot101 | borg_: but that's fine, telepathy is extensible with your own interfaces on objects, or you can just add some seperate API to the same process. |
| 02:13.15 | raster | anythign that is xshmputimage heavy |
| 02:13.15 | SpeedEvil | raster: Do you happen to have a current figure for how much it draws when just passively refreshing the screen? |
| 02:13.25 | raster | ie anything that pumps lots of data to x will suffer on the gta02 much worse than gta01 |
| 02:13.35 | raster | things that do simple 2d blits (scroling) and fills, will win |
| 02:13.39 | raster | in the end you about break even |
| 02:13.48 | cesarb | great, I lost the USB when changing CPU frequencies :( |
| 02:13.56 | raster | so u spent a lot of code, drivers, testing, hardware and money on going nowhere fast |
| 02:13.57 | raster | :) |
| 02:14.21 | SpeedEvil | raster: I'm currently developing silly hardware so know the feeling. |
| 02:14.22 | raster | i'm hoping to have this not happen again in future devices |
| 02:14.27 | balrog-kun | cesarb: "lost"? |
| 02:14.27 | raster | as for power drain - no idea. |
| 02:14.29 | raster | sorry :/ |
| 02:14.38 | borg_ | Robot101: write something with examples to smartphones-standards@lists.linuxtogo.org |
| 02:14.40 | cesarb | balrog-kun: as in, it's not even accepting descriptor reads anymore |
| 02:14.57 | balrog-kun | oh |
| 02:15.04 | borg_ | Robot101: at the moment there is some gui writing a gsmd prototype for the freesmartphone api |
| 02:15.05 | balrog-kun | cesarb: but that's without resetting? |
| 02:15.07 | borg_ | so do it fast ;) |
| 02:15.10 | SpeedEvil | raster: (1.1Kg lifoff weight UAV that hits 1Km vertically over the takeoff spot and then vertically lands on the takeoff spot) Part selection before you write drivers is horrible. |
| 02:15.13 | borg_ | s/gui/guy/ |
| 02:15.24 | cesarb | balrog-kun: yeah |
| 02:15.40 | cesarb | balrog-kun: I wanted to check the results of the timing code... |
| 02:16.07 | balrog-kun | cesarb: i guess there may be more drivers out there not expecting HZ to change run-time :/ |
| 02:16.35 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: it notes that |
| 02:16.36 | *** join/#openmoko RedDog (n=reddog@mastersword.de) |
| 02:16.48 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: PCLK amy not be below 40(?) Mhz |
| 02:16.58 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: do you drop into slow mode while changing freqs? |
| 02:17.01 | borg_ | Robot101: another thing is this telephony api by LiPS |
| 02:17.08 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: the USB bodule |
| 02:17.57 | SpeedEvil | s/b/m/ |
| 02:18.15 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: I changed to 202800 kHz |
| 02:18.26 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: not much of a change |
| 02:18.29 | SpeedEvil | Ah |
| 02:18.38 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: that's just the first test |
| 02:18.40 | justin111 | so is this where OM dev goes on |
| 02:18.51 | SpeedEvil | I wouln't expect PLL excursions to be _That_ large |
| 02:19.19 | SpeedEvil | Does unloading and reloading the USB modules work? |
| 02:19.26 | raster | SpeedEvil: yeah. very painful. |
| 02:19.30 | SpeedEvil | justin111: to an extent |
| 02:19.40 | balrog-kun | hard to say without having working usb i imagine :) |
| 02:19.52 | SpeedEvil | raster: at least it won't fall on your head after powerdiving from 1Km :) |
| 02:19.54 | raster | frankly in future - i want to see us have something that is technically capable of anything u see on the iphone |
| 02:19.56 | raster | or itouch |
| 02:19.59 | raster | or even psp |
| 02:20.02 | raster | etc. |
| 02:20.27 | raster | if then its just a matter of drivers and software - i'm a happy man |
| 02:20.41 | raster | the problem is finding something open (or willing to be opened) |
| 02:20.43 | borg_ | Robot101: how do you register with a network? how do you get a list of possible providers? |
| 02:20.46 | raster | or programmable openly |
| 02:20.50 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: changing from my rusty old Zire 72 cable to one of the neo's own USB cables also didn't help |
| 02:20.52 | raster | we will see about that |
| 02:21.00 | raster | but for the forseeable future we have the glamo so beat into shape |
| 02:21.15 | SpeedEvil | If it was me. I'd like to see GTA01 with faster CPU + camera + wifi +HH (with docs) |
| 02:21.22 | raster | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:21.22 | SpeedEvil | But that's somewhat unlikely. |
| 02:21.27 | raster | and so not have to redo yet more drivers |
| 02:21.41 | raster | yeah |
| 02:21.50 | raster | in some ways right now i think we'd have been better off with that |
| 02:21.56 | Robot101 | borg_: again, not currently covered. but it's not a total GSM API, it's just concerned with call control and messaging. but for those functionalities at least, using tp would be a big win. |
| 02:21.57 | raster | even without camera |
| 02:22.15 | raster | just gta01 + open gps, accelerometers, wifi and faster cpu with more flash |
| 02:22.27 | SpeedEvil | raster: camera is tricky, yes. There are insanely small camera modules though. |
| 02:22.29 | raster | i seriusly was thinking of pushing us to qvga |
| 02:22.37 | SpeedEvil | raster: 5*5*2mm 2MP with AF |
| 02:22.37 | borg_ | Robot101: but the call control is just a pretty small thing in the whole freesmartphone.org api |
| 02:22.46 | raster | as vga was just painful to fill the peixels of at sane speeds |
| 02:22.49 | justin111 | what USA carrier has compatible GSM freq's for neo |
| 02:23.09 | raster | justin111: the gta01 or gta02? |
| 02:23.14 | raster | gta02 will come in 2 versions |
| 02:23.21 | SpeedEvil | raster: the VGA screen is insanely nice for static text. It's a lot of data to push though. |
| 02:23.21 | justin111 | gta02 |
| 02:23.21 | raster | 1. thats 1900mhz etc. and one that 850mhz |
| 02:23.23 | Robot101 | borg_: I think call control and messaging is quite a big thing for a phone actually... :D |
| 02:23.31 | raster | sped indeed it is |
| 02:23.34 | raster | i was really torn |
| 02:23.40 | justin111 | in 2 version let me guess CDMAndasGSm |
| 02:23.43 | raster | the beauty of its dpi and static display was amazing |
| 02:23.45 | borg_ | Robot101: http://www.freesmartphone.org/mediawiki/index.php/Standards |
| 02:23.47 | raster | it'd be a shame to lose it |
| 02:23.55 | raster | but then the moment u had to move/animate/whatever anything |
| 02:23.59 | borg_ | Robot101: at first, it concerns only the open telephony api |
| 02:23.59 | raster | .life becomes yukkie |
| 02:24.13 | raster | justin111: no 2 gsm versions\ |
| 02:24.13 | SpeedEvil | raster: For a 'games mode' I think dropping to QVGA is a better plan. |
| 02:24.19 | raster | just different freqency support |
| 02:24.39 | borg_ | Robot101: http://www.freesmartphone.org/mediawiki/index.php/Standards/OpenPhoneServerAPI look at the bottom, your api is not listet as proposals to consider, so please write to the mailing list |
| 02:24.40 | SpeedEvil | raster: the notion that you can tell 640*480 in normal use at 60Hz with fast motion dosn't really hold up. |
| 02:24.43 | justin111 | why cant it be all in one |
| 02:24.53 | SpeedEvil | justin111: compromises |
| 02:24.59 | borg_ | Robot101: perhaps mickey just is not aware of it |
| 02:25.06 | SpeedEvil | justin111: it's more expensive and larger board area to make a 4 band phoine. |
| 02:25.37 | justin111 | oh ojk |
| 02:25.40 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: went down to 135000 kHz, noticed some flicker (perhaps because I don't have the fb code), AND the timer ran at exactly half of the correct speed :( |
| 02:25.54 | Robot101 | borg_: I spoke to him about it at GUADEC |
| 02:26.04 | justin111 | speed what are you guys working on |
| 02:26.15 | borg_ | Robot101: and what did he say? ;) |
| 02:26.17 | raster | SpeedEvil: i know |
| 02:26.18 | SpeedEvil | justin111: either that, or it was only dicovered after the GTA02 design was mostly frozen that GTA01 was triband - a specification mistake |
| 02:26.43 | raster | SpeedEvil: BUT u cant chnage resolution on the fly smoothly to be able to go up and down from vga to qvga between frame updates |
| 02:27.08 | raster | justin111: cost, time to market, existing RF layout etc. |
| 02:27.19 | Robot101 | borg_: he sounded pretty keen on the idea of the UIs being able to use common Telepathy APIs for calling and messaging stuff, so they can do SIP etc just as easily |
| 02:27.22 | SpeedEvil | raster: Hmm. I don't in principle see why not. The framebuffer can be pointed at another bit of RAM very quickly. |
| 02:27.25 | Robot101 | borg_: not spoken much with him since then |
| 02:27.46 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: I think it's more likely that the "it was discovered too late" version is the true one |
| 02:27.52 | raster | SpeedEvil: sure - in THEORY - if that bit of ram was pre-filled with the current screen @ qvga |
| 02:27.55 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: I don't think it would cost too much board area |
| 02:28.01 | raster | but x itself won't handle this gracefully at all |
| 02:28.08 | SpeedEvil | raster: no, it won't. |
| 02:28.47 | SpeedEvil | raster: though I have considered ickyness. A hacked VNC client on a QVGA X |
| 02:29.11 | raster | ouch! |
| 02:29.22 | SpeedEvil | raster: Purely for personal use. |
| 02:29.24 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x__ (n=alvar@212-41-76-165.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 02:32.22 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: how are you talking to your slow neo? |
| 02:32.49 | borg_ | Robot101: so the question is, should we use both use more resources, should we extend your api with the sim card/gsm related stuff or should we use your api for call control and ours for the rest |
| 02:32.57 | borg_ | Robot101: what do you think is the best solution? |
| 02:33.47 | SpeedEvil | Robot101: How large is the 'core' telepathy bit that's under discussion - disk/RAM |
| 02:34.05 | *** join/#openmoko bmk789 (n=bmk789@74-132-81-162.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 02:34.27 | Robot101 | SpeedEvil: there is no core telepathy bit, fundamentally it's a D-Bus API |
| 02:34.38 | Robot101 | SpeedEvil: any backend that implements it can be used by a frontend that speaks it |
| 02:34.55 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:CesarB/cpufreq <- now with testing report |
| 02:36.09 | Robot101 | SpeedEvil: but usually you'll want a bit called mission control, which seems to take ~2Mb RAM on my system |
| 02:36.53 | Robot101 | SpeedEvil: and the tp-glib library is the easiest way to implement/use the API, is 250k here |
| 02:37.17 | Robot101 | SpeedEvil: it's always been usable on embedded platforms from the start, the Nokia 770 was our first deployment |
| 02:38.36 | Robot101 | borg_: if there are APIs that make sense on a GSM "connection" object, they can be added as interfaces on the tp connection object |
| 02:39.04 | Robot101 | borg_: they can be put into the spec where appropriate, like something to configure forwarding might be relevant on other services besides GSM |
| 02:39.09 | raster | the biggest thing about telepathy is really going to be how far it abstracts |
| 02:39.21 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@CPE-121-220-137-34.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 02:39.26 | raster | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:39.34 | raster | or tell the gsm hw to do things |
| 02:39.40 | raster | and/or if it makes sense |
| 02:40.07 | Robot101 | it's designed to hide the protocol specifics, but not hide the fact that protocols are different in terms of their capabilities |
| 02:40.14 | borg_ | Robot101: but you wont be able to use gsm the some way as sip then |
| 02:40.17 | raster | if not u likely need another abstraction between gsm hw and telepathy and whatever lese u split out to |
| 02:40.33 | Robot101 | borg_: why? |
| 02:40.35 | raster | Robot101: sure - but things like being able to find the name of your current gsm cell |
| 02:40.44 | Robot101 | so different types of channel, or interfaces are/aren't available depending on functionality |
| 02:40.46 | raster | (eg sydney, or canary wharf etc.) |
| 02:40.52 | borg_ | Robot101: if you want to do the gsm handling stuff with your api, you have to choose a provider, connect to the network and so on |
| 02:40.53 | raster | should that be in telepathy or somewhere else? |
| 02:41.02 | raster | then lets go a step further |
| 02:41.04 | Robot101 | you can add extra interfaces to cover specifics |
| 02:41.08 | borg_ | Robot101: imo it makes sense to have another abstraction layer under it |
| 02:41.11 | borg_ | that does it |
| 02:41.12 | Robot101 | and hang them off the telepathy object |
| 02:41.16 | raster | a lot of gsm chips can tell you ALL the cells you are in and their relative signal strenghts |
| 02:41.39 | SpeedEvil | Including this one |
| 02:41.42 | raster | u can do relatively coarse triangulation then - if u know where those cells are located |
| 02:41.48 | SpeedEvil | at%EM3 IIRC |
| 02:41.49 | raster | but should this be in telepathy |
| 02:41.58 | raster | as we are movign away from messaging itself now |
| 02:42.04 | SpeedEvil | raster: I haven't found out how to do triangulation from the data I've taken |
| 02:42.08 | Robot101 | yeah yeah yeah, so just write the magic GSM specific interfaces, and add them onto the Telepathy objects, but they don't need to into the telepathy spec itself |
| 02:42.27 | raster | SpeedEvil: if u have 3 or more cells and signal strengths - thats the best u can do i think |
| 02:42.33 | Robot101 | org.freedesktop.Telepathy.Connection.GetInterfaces can include com.foo.misc.GsmStuff |
| 02:42.34 | raster | after that u need to co-ords of the specific cell towers |
| 02:42.38 | SpeedEvil | Robot101: especially as 'find the name of the current cell' might involve looking up a large database, perhaps over the net, perhaps with the aid of GPS |
| 02:42.46 | Robot101 | and a client that doesn't care about GSM can ignore it |
| 02:42.50 | Robot101 | but a client that does can use it |
| 02:42.54 | SpeedEvil | raster: oh - I was hoping for timings in the data |
| 02:42.57 | raster | robh sure |
| 02:43.01 | raster | but does that belong in telepathy |
| 02:43.07 | Robot101 | it's not in telepathy |
| 02:43.13 | raster | does its perhaps belong is a mroe specific abstraction fo geo-location |
| 02:43.20 | raster | that abstracts to gps chips |
| 02:43.31 | Robot101 | it's just implemented as a new interface that's on the same process as implements the telepathy stuff |
| 02:43.32 | raster | or uses the gsm chipo as a coarse gsm or when gsm is not vailable etc. |
| 02:43.45 | Robot101 | you don't need to stack up abstractions just because telepathy isn't a complete abstraction |
| 02:43.49 | raster | SpeedEvil: i think u can get latency to the towers too |
| 02:44.01 | Robot101 | you can have one tp-gsmd which speaks tp for the bits tp does, and ?! for the rest |
| 02:44.03 | raster | SpeedEvil: but again - not useful if u .... dont knwo where in the world those towers are |
| 02:44.04 | raster | :) |
| 02:44.06 | SpeedEvil | raster: I diddn't see that in any of the datafields returned |
| 02:44.14 | raster | SpeedEvil: in theory u can |
| 02:44.18 | SpeedEvil | raster: trivial in theory - if you can get latency |
| 02:44.19 | raster | dont know about the gsm on the neo tho |
| 02:44.25 | Robot101 | and then a different tp-gsmd2 can present the same APIs for tp + GSM functionality |
| 02:44.27 | Vegar | would it be possible to locate the towers if you move around a bit with a GPS? |
| 02:44.27 | SpeedEvil | wander around with GPS + GSM tower logging on |
| 02:44.30 | raster | this is just gsm in general |
| 02:44.43 | raster | Vegar: if u have gps - why bother. u know where u are! |
| 02:44.44 | raster | :) |
| 02:44.56 | raster | *IF the aim is to find out where YOU are |
| 02:44.57 | Robot101 | but there's no point writing a GSM call/messaging/yada abstraction API if you can just use the tp API for that, just an exercise in wasting memory and CPU marshalling/demarshalling data then |
| 02:45.02 | SpeedEvil | However, I diddn't get anything sensible from graphing ranges from tower vs any of the fields returned from %EM |
| 02:45.08 | Vegar | raster: for times when the US government decides to shut down GPS |
| 02:45.14 | raster | Robot101: agreed |
| 02:45.18 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: if you see a field for the "timing advance", that's what you are looking for |
| 02:45.25 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: I did |
| 02:45.32 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: it diddn't seem to have clear data |
| 02:45.39 | raster | Vegar: then u need to triangulate with gsm towers |
| 02:45.43 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: not obvious when plotted on a graph anyway |
| 02:45.45 | raster | that requires u know where the towers are |
| 02:45.59 | raster | i dont think telcos broadcast tower lat/long :) |
| 02:46.00 | Robot101 | the usual thing we look for before putting stuff into the TP spec is; is this something that's worth us abstracting because it can usefully happen on more than one protocol we do/can/will support |
| 02:46.07 | Vegar | raster: assuming you were able to locate the towers before the GPS died |
| 02:46.07 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: the timing advance is how much the radio has to delay or advance (hence the name) the transmission to fit in the center of the slot |
| 02:46.23 | SpeedEvil | raster: if you know your course (GPS), and range-changes to the tower, you can derive position |
| 02:46.29 | raster | Vegar: then i guess with enough data u could |
| 02:46.31 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: it's the thing responsible for GSM's range limit (after some point you start going over other slot) |
| 02:46.40 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: maybe I was trying too short ranges |
| 02:46.45 | raster | SpeedEvil: sure. i'm just for now assuming u dont know where u are |
| 02:46.47 | raster | no gps data |
| 02:47.00 | raster | and u have 3 or moe towers and relative latency/singal strengths |
| 02:47.12 | raster | withotu tower locs u are still not going to know |
| 02:47.19 | raster | given a vast location database like google maps |
| 02:47.23 | SpeedEvil | raster: I'm assuming a collaborative effort that does the above and spits the extrapolated data back to a shared db |
| 02:47.26 | raster | u could take cell tower names and look them up |
| 02:47.31 | Robot101 | like if it's something crazily specific to one protocol, like manually traversing service discovery and filling in x-forms on XMPP, it's not something worth standardising for us atm because it doesn't turn up on other protocols |
| 02:47.37 | raster | and thus take a guess at where they might be |
| 02:47.43 | Robot101 | a lot of GSM functionality has parallels on other protocols though |
| 02:47.50 | raster | and thus at least somehow get a location within a veyr large margin of error |
| 02:48.00 | Robot101 | like configuring "server-side" (network) forwarding can happen with SIP services |
| 02:48.17 | Robot101 | or being challenged for authentication tokens (PIN stuff) certainly happens elsewhere |
| 02:48.32 | Robot101 | GSM signal strength, or which cell can I see, not so much |
| 02:48.53 | Robot101 | but that doesn't mean tp-gsm can't just tack an extra GSM-specific interface onto its connection object, that's pretty straightforward |
| 02:49.04 | SpeedEvil | robtaylor: voice-over-wifi isn't going to become less popular. |
| 02:49.06 | SpeedEvil | robo: |
| 02:49.16 | raster | hehehe |
| 02:49.19 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: just thought of something, it's possible the timing advance only gets really accurate when you are using the slots for talking |
| 02:49.27 | raster | no it isnt |
| 02:49.35 | SpeedEvil | Robot101: especialy now that some have implemented GSM gateways |
| 02:49.40 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: the slots used for sporadic communication aren't as precise |
| 02:49.45 | raster | thats why eventually we do need to marry gsm based comms vs. IP based (and whatever else comes along) |
| 02:50.06 | raster | BAH |
| 02:50.16 | SpeedEvil | Robot101: where you talk IP to a virtual cell tower in the cellphone companies NOC. |
| 02:50.16 | raster | i thought i'd changed sh to bash from dash |
| 02:50.32 | raster | what insanity prompted ubuntu to use dash instead of bash |
| 02:50.35 | SpeedEvil | Robot101: so you can 'roam' from GSM to wifi and back as from GSM cel-cell |
| 02:50.42 | Robot101 | SpeedEvil: yeah, UMA stuff |
| 02:52.43 | cesarb | raster: it's faster, and due to Debian's policies everything works with both (Debian does a lot of bashism-bashing) |
| 02:52.57 | SpeedEvil | Pity UMA doesn't work on the neo. |
| 02:53.22 | SpeedEvil | Well - barring firmware changes on the TI |
| 02:53.22 | cesarb | raster: I, btw, use dash as my /bin/sh in Ubuntu, and don't have many problems compiling things (if OE accepted the last 2-3 patches of mine, there would be none) |
| 02:53.29 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: yes it is |
| 02:53.42 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: more or less - it was 0.1 on my meter set to 200mA |
| 02:54.07 | balrog-kun | oh wait, that's mW and the other is in W :/ |
| 02:54.23 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: I may have committed mA/mW confusion in that page |
| 02:54.34 | raster | cesarb: faster - hrrrm. havent tested myself on that front |
| 02:54.41 | balrog-kun | it is probably correct, yeah |
| 02:54.41 | raster | but man has it caused some pain before |
| 02:54.42 | balrog-kun | time to go to sleep for me :) |
| 02:54.50 | raster | right now OE is that pain |
| 02:55.37 | cesarb | raster: looking at my build overlay, only mtpaint and ruby are still broken. You should find patches from me for both at the OE tracker. |
| 02:55.53 | raster | openmoko-browser2 is broken |
| 02:55.59 | raster | justw switched to bash and its fixed |
| 02:57.34 | SpeedEvil | firefox is also broken :) |
| 02:58.06 | raster | oooh woot |
| 02:58.10 | raster | libgsmd broke |
| 02:58.25 | raster | oh wait |
| 02:58.36 | raster | its one of those "it brken this time - just run the build again" breaks |
| 02:59.01 | raster | hmm |
| 02:59.04 | raster | no |
| 02:59.08 | SpeedEvil | what do I need to do to get it to build - it's complaining about nothing found for uboot |
| 02:59.24 | raster | oooh |
| 02:59.30 | raster | u need to update mokomakefile |
| 02:59.42 | raster | final target for om changed form uboot to u-boot |
| 02:59.43 | SpeedEvil | make update? |
| 02:59.46 | SpeedEvil | Or something else? |
| 02:59.54 | raster | make update-makefile |
| 02:59.55 | raster | i think |
| 03:00.07 | raster | i just tab cmplete my make targets |
| 03:00.17 | SpeedEvil | That is nifty |
| 03:00.21 | raster | make up<tab> |
| 03:00.27 | raster | yup |
| 03:00.30 | raster | zsh is nifty |
| 03:00.35 | raster | very nifty |
| 03:00.35 | SpeedEvil | If it'd complete URLs too, that'd be good :) |
| 03:00.39 | SpeedEvil | I keep trying to do that. |
| 03:00.40 | raster | the best interactive shell i have used |
| 03:00.50 | raster | it can complete ssh params |
| 03:01.22 | *** join/#openmoko HellDragon (i=jd@unaffiliated/helldragon) |
| 03:01.29 | raster | scp www.myb<tab>[box.com let's say]:/tmp/myfi<tab> |
| 03:01.44 | raster | it will look in your ssh history for the mahcine name to complete |
| 03:02.01 | SpeedEvil | nice |
| 03:02.03 | raster | and when completing paths on the remtoe host it literally ssh's in and checks the dir contents to see what to complete |
| 03:02.12 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@CPE-121-220-137-34.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 03:02.18 | raster | does it all in the background for u |
| 03:02.44 | raster | it knows many common unix cmd's and options |
| 03:02.53 | raster | so i do tar zxf file<tab> |
| 03:03.00 | raster | it will ONLY complete files called |
| 03:03.10 | raster | *.tgz *.tar.gz *.tar.Z |
| 03:03.11 | raster | for example |
| 03:03.16 | raster | and ignore all other files |
| 03:03.25 | raster | (oh also dirs and the file could be inside the dir) |
| 03:03.51 | cesarb | raster: bash does that too... you just have to install some bash completion script thingy (comes installed by default on Kubuntu) |
| 03:04.03 | raster | yeah |
| 03:04.06 | raster | thats newish in bash |
| 03:04.13 | raster | zsh has been doing this for the past decade |
| 03:04.13 | borg_ | not the ssh stuff |
| 03:04.29 | borg_ | and thats pretty nice |
| 03:04.48 | raster | overall zsh is very nice |
| 03:04.56 | raster | i am happy swithcing from bash |
| 03:06.26 | balrog-kun | it also ssh's in when you type an scp command and want completion, etc |
| 03:10.02 | balrog-kun | oh wait, scp is what you talked about |
| 03:12.14 | *** join/#openmoko slomo_ (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 03:22.16 | *** join/#openmoko Pupeno- (n=Pupeno@dsl-37-170.dsl.netsource.ie) |
| 03:22.58 | SpeedEvil | Ooops - the Openmoko dash thing was still in the wikipedia entry. |
| 03:25.05 | *** join/#openmoko HellDragon (i=jd@unaffiliated/helldragon) |
| 03:30.01 | *** join/#openmoko astro76 (n=jtaji@c-71-206-214-180.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 03:35.30 | *** join/#openmoko justin111 (n=justinra@71-34-83-170.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 03:36.49 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x_ (n=alvar@212-41-116-233.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 03:39.20 | *** join/#openmoko rtp (n=rtp@2a01:5d8:58a6:7960:20e:cff:fedc:7859) |
| 03:39.39 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack_ (n=j_ack@dsbg-4db7baec.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 03:42.12 | *** join/#openmoko MMN-o (n=mmn@barjack.com) |
| 03:53.48 | *** join/#openmoko theHive (n=theHive@c211-30-182-242.artrmn2.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 03:54.27 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x__ (n=alvar@212-41-96-137.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 03:55.23 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 04:04.06 | *** join/#openmoko SP-8472 (i=8472@dslb-084-056-227-054.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 04:08.00 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x_ (n=alvar@212-41-69-239.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 04:15.41 | *** join/#openmoko Q_Continuum (n=Q@75-168-125-242.mpls.qwest.net) |
| 04:18.16 | *** join/#openmoko paulproteus (n=paulprot@wide-rose.makesad.us) |
| 04:19.37 | *** join/#openmoko ccube (n=ccube@e177210165.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 04:28.35 | *** join/#openmoko ken_ (n=user@84.92.70.37) |
| 04:30.05 | *** join/#openmoko peepsalot (n=peepsalo@cpe-67-9-161-48.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 04:40.54 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x__ (n=alvar@212-41-85-96.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 04:41.51 | *** join/#openmoko justin111 (n=justinra@71-34-83-170.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 04:44.52 | justin111 | raster: is GTA03 in the making? |
| 04:45.03 | raster | in discussion |
| 04:45.07 | SpeedEvil | no |
| 04:45.15 | SpeedEvil | oh |
| 04:45.20 | SpeedEvil | believe him |
| 04:45.33 | justin111 | wow lol you 2 always come up with completely diffrent answers |
| 04:45.36 | raster | its all up in the air |
| 04:46.02 | raster | SOC is undetermined |
| 04:46.07 | raster | if we go for high or low end - unknonw |
| 04:46.30 | raster | do we stick with vga or go to another screen (qvga? wqvga?) etc. |
| 04:46.31 | raster | unknown |
| 04:46.52 | raster | we are investigating several SOC possibilites |
| 04:46.59 | justin111 | when i ask about 3d accel raster says no speed says yes |
| 04:47.02 | raster | each has plusses and minuses for different reasons |
| 04:47.15 | raster | justin111: well both answers were right |
| 04:47.19 | raster | technically the chip can do 3d |
| 04:47.24 | raster | but u wont see any drivers for it |
| 04:47.27 | raster | thus i said no |
| 04:47.31 | Tronic | SVG acceleration would be nice, 3D not so. Dunno how well that integrates with GTK, though. |
| 04:47.35 | raster | (well u might see drivers - if u are lucky) |
| 04:47.41 | raster | Tronic: nooooo chance. |
| 04:47.42 | SpeedEvil | I said yes, as I hasn't been keeping up with all the announcements on the website. |
| 04:47.49 | Tronic | It is difficult to accelerate SVG rendering with OpenGL. |
| 04:47.55 | SpeedEvil | In short - believe raster most of the time. |
| 04:49.12 | raster | hehehe |
| 04:49.22 | raster | gta02 is definitely on our minds as such |
| 04:49.27 | raster | but no real hard concrete work |
| 04:49.33 | raster | if you have input - mumble stuff |
| 04:49.47 | raster | i'm sure i'll hear it |
| 04:50.07 | raster | for example |
| 04:50.11 | raster | if we go qvga |
| 04:50.15 | raster | we can scale down specs |
| 04:50.17 | raster | and make it cheaper |
| 04:50.21 | raster | but i'll have less pixels |
| 04:50.39 | SpeedEvil | I assume there is a LCD panel price penalty for QVGA and VGA of the same size? |
| 04:50.52 | raster | and less "my schlong is bigger than your schlong" fun as u compare resolutions with your iphone fanbois |
| 04:50.53 | *** join/#openmoko brian_ (n=brian@ip70-178-27-23.ks.ks.cox.net) |
| 04:51.04 | raster | SpeedEvil: yup |
| 04:51.31 | raster | theres a premium for anything that isnt hyper-common |
| 04:51.37 | raster | even if it is produced in large numbers |
| 04:51.44 | raster | it may have already all been biught up by vendors |
| 04:51.47 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@pdpc/supporter/active/bluelightning) |
| 04:51.57 | raster | eg the 320x480 lcd in the iphon & ithouch is impossible to find |
| 04:52.04 | raster | apple basically has bought up the entire supply |
| 04:52.25 | raster | so u always have to make compromises that are not just technical on how good it is or performance or price - supply itself will vfary it |
| 04:53.35 | SpeedEvil | raster: I'm contemplating a silly modular phone built around tincantools.com 's hammer, and a PSP LCD |
| 04:53.39 | SpeedEvil | raster: well - phone/... |
| 04:54.09 | *** join/#openmoko pestis (n=billg@76.20.180.125) |
| 04:54.34 | raster | SpeedEvil: it will be a fairly bulky phone :) |
| 04:54.59 | raster | the psp lcd isnt too bad |
| 04:55.01 | SpeedEvil | raster: not that bad actually. |
| 04:55.01 | raster | but it is very big |
| 04:55.06 | raster | u'd make a physically HUGE phone |
| 04:55.37 | SpeedEvil | raster: I think about 20mm*120mm*80mm - from some models |
| 04:55.46 | raster | sure |
| 04:56.05 | raster | tho ther neo is 120mm or so in length - in TOTAL |
| 04:56.15 | raster | so u'll end up wiht like 150mm with extra casing etc. |
| 04:56.27 | *** join/#openmoko terracon (n=greisky@CPE0050da822b70-CM0012254076d6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 04:57.35 | raster | well lets see |
| 04:57.45 | SpeedEvil | raster: it's not for that. |
| 04:57.59 | SpeedEvil | raster: it's mainly a flexible dev board |
| 04:58.08 | SpeedEvil | raster: that is in a little case |
| 04:58.54 | SpeedEvil | raster: it's not going to be smaller than a neo, or really compete in many ways other than you can easily add stuff. |
| 04:59.12 | raster | ooh cool |
| 04:59.12 | SpeedEvil | raster: add or leave off the GSM and GPS module for example |
| 04:59.19 | raster | just a private "look - i built my own hw" project |
| 04:59.21 | raster | :) |
| 04:59.26 | SpeedEvil | Sort-of. |
| 04:59.36 | SpeedEvil | The tincantools device is so easy. |
| 04:59.51 | SpeedEvil | DIP40 with RAM+s3c2410+flash |
| 05:02.21 | justin111 | how do i use GCC to compile a .cpp file |
| 05:03.28 | raster | gcc file.cpp -o file |
| 05:07.47 | Tronic | You use g++, normally. |
| 05:08.05 | justin111 | [justin@localhost ~]$ gcc hello.cpp |
| 05:08.05 | justin111 | hello.cpp:7:2: warning: no newline at end of file |
| 05:08.06 | justin111 | hello.cpp:4: error: expected constructor, destructor, or type conversion before ‘}’ token |
| 05:08.06 | justin111 | hello.cpp:4: error: expected declaration before ‘}’ token |
| 05:08.06 | justin111 | [justin@localhost ~]$ |
| 05:08.07 | Tronic | gcc does not link in the C++ libraries, as g++ does. |
| 05:09.49 | justin111 | what did i do wrong |
| 05:09.56 | justin111 | is it something with my code |
| 05:09.57 | *** join/#openmoko jpozlovsky (n=jindra@rb5cc115.net.upc.cz) |
| 05:10.46 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x_ (n=alvar@212-41-122-249.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 05:16.28 | *** join/#openmoko t00na (n=tuna@unaffiliated/t00na) |
| 05:19.45 | justin111 | grrr kdevelop wont start on line 0 |
| 05:19.47 | smlsfb | justin111, gcc is for C, g++ is for C++ |
| 05:19.56 | justin111 | oh |
| 05:19.58 | justin111 | thats why |
| 05:20.41 | justin111 | well i will install that once my updates are done |
| 05:20.41 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 05:20.41 | justin111 | and is eclipse any good |
| 05:21.13 | smlsfb | dunno, most of my projects are small enough i just use vi/gcc/maybe a simple makefile |
| 05:21.17 | *** part/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 05:23.07 | justin111 | oh ok |
| 05:23.50 | smlsfb | from what i've heard, eclipse is very good |
| 05:42.32 | smlsfb | s/patche/patch ? |
| 05:43.13 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 05:43.25 | SpeedEvil | ... 1+svnr3801-r13/patches': No such file or directory |
| 05:44.01 | smlsfb | 's fair |
| 05:48.56 | *** join/#openmoko theHive (n=theHive@c211-30-182-242.artrmn2.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 05:49.17 | *** join/#openmoko justin111 (n=justinra@71-34-83-170.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 05:55.45 | *** join/#openmoko justin111 (n=justinra@71-34-83-170.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 05:56.06 | justin111 | what would you rather have mandriva 2008 or fedora core 8 |
| 05:56.28 | t00na | An a Neo??? |
| 05:56.40 | justin111 | no for desktop |
| 05:56.47 | justin111 | raster:you there |
| 05:57.15 | t00na | What does that have to do with anything that should be discussed in here? |
| 05:57.25 | justin111 | no idea |
| 05:57.34 | raster | yup |
| 05:57.51 | t00na | Meh, it was getting quiet :P |
| 05:57.52 | justin111 | just figured you guys where linux users so i was asking for an oppion |
| 05:58.16 | t00na | Well first of all, as of Fedora 7, the 'Core' is no longer there. |
| 05:58.25 | t00na | So it's just Fedora 8 |
| 05:58.40 | t00na | But I would probably go with Fedora. |
| 05:58.41 | smlsfb | i'm gonna bet raster would say neither, use e17 cvs |
| 05:58.57 | *** join/#openmoko doc|home (n=doc@gentoo/contributor/doc-007) |
| 05:58.59 | raster | thats not a distro |
| 05:58.59 | raster | :) |
| 05:59.13 | justin111 | what is that |
| 05:59.22 | smlsfb | elivecd then :) |
| 05:59.40 | brian_ | just get slackware an GET OVER IT |
| 06:00.08 | t00na | Now If I could chose any distro, then it would probably be either plain old (K)Ubuntu or something like Slackware or Gentoo. |
| 06:00.09 | justin111 | slackware has no package management and that makes it very hard for me |
| 06:00.16 | brian_ | lies |
| 06:00.26 | t00na | Or if I really wanted to learn something, then LFS. :) |
| 06:00.31 | brian_ | slackpkg is preferred |
| 06:00.52 | justin111 | not a "true" package from what i understand |
| 06:01.12 | t00na | You download packages.... and it installs them for you. |
| 06:01.26 | brian_ | nope it does it auto |
| 06:01.27 | t00na | That, in essence, is a package management system. |
| 06:01.46 | brian_ | from a mirror u setup |
| 06:01.50 | justin111 | hopefully autopackage .package files will become more widly used |
| 06:02.10 | t00na | brian_: Well, it comes from somewhere and they magically get installed. |
| 06:02.26 | justin111 | im not much of a developer isnt slack and gentoo more for devs |
| 06:02.37 | justin111 | im only in the hello world sage of C++ |
| 06:02.58 | t00na | The idea behind apt, pacman, slackpkg, portage, whatever; it installs things for you. |
| 06:03.14 | t00na | from package files. |
| 06:03.16 | justin111 | maybe ill do a LFS |
| 06:03.33 | t00na | justin111: LFS would me more intensive then slackware, don't ya think? |
| 06:04.17 | justin111 | yah |
| 06:04.34 | justin111 | lol cross compileing compile flags etc. |
| 06:04.53 | justin111 | but in the end it would all be worth it a linux distro made just for my machine |
| 06:04.54 | t00na | Ubuntu is a ready-made airplane, complete with leather seats and hot stewardesses, wearing bikinis if you install the restricted drivers, which is made extremely easy. |
| 06:05.20 | t00na | Slackware is a simple airplane, and you can add stuff or strip it down as you see fit. |
| 06:05.26 | justin111 | i had kubuntu for like 3 months not a big fan of debain |
| 06:05.38 | brian_ | untill that package manager it has BLOWS U UP |
| 06:05.43 | t00na | LFS is all the little bits to an airplane. You have to put them together. |
| 06:05.43 | smlsfb | made for your machine .. yeah ... but maintaining it is a pain |
| 06:05.54 | justin111 | yeah lol thats what made me pissed |
| 06:06.20 | brian_ | slackpkg is so simple even u can do it |
| 06:07.00 | t00na | I always thought apt was a bit more complicated than need be, and was very intimidating when I first started with Kubuntu. |
| 06:07.40 | t00na | I have it down now, but I still think it's a bit weird. |
| 06:07.48 | justin111 | lol LFS guys got a linux distro to run apache 1.1 total diskspace 8mb |
| 06:08.01 | justin111 | have any of you seen nimbleX custom distro |
| 06:08.02 | t00na | But I love Ubuntu. |
| 06:08.14 | justin111 | but we hate .deb files |
| 06:09.01 | Vegar | what's wrong with .debs? |
| 06:09.01 | smlsfb | who hates deb files? |
| 06:09.08 | smlsfb | apt-get == fantastic |
| 06:10.07 | justin111 | i have to agree with what brian says debi hosed my system |
| 06:10.22 | justin111 | now for the last 2 months i have been on mandriva |
| 06:10.26 | smlsfb | whats debi? |
| 06:11.09 | justin111 | .deb |
| 06:11.14 | justin111 | debi is the installer |
| 06:11.31 | smlsfb | oh .. i haven't done a new install in a looooong time |
| 06:11.34 | Vegar | dpkg is the installer |
| 06:11.49 | smlsfb | apt-get is the front end for dpkg |
| 06:12.12 | justin111 | hm well something debi was what i remeber |
| 06:12.21 | justin111 | yeah i know |
| 06:12.30 | justin111 | apt is not my cup of tea |
| 06:12.35 | justin111 | never again |
| 06:12.42 | smlsfb | <3 apt |
| 06:12.46 | justin111 | will i have apt hose my system |
| 06:13.13 | smlsfb | i think i hosed my debian box a couple times. but it was entirely my fault and not apt's |
| 06:13.21 | justin111 | raster: what do you run |
| 06:13.44 | justin111 | RPM is ok |
| 06:13.47 | justin111 | not great |
| 06:13.54 | justin111 | but i like autopackage |
| 06:14.02 | justin111 | it works on anything that has python |
| 06:16.55 | raster | justin111: ubuntu |
| 06:17.59 | justin111 | raster: oh |
| 06:18.11 | justin111 | raster: why did apt hose my box |
| 06:18.18 | raster | dunno |
| 06:18.35 | Vegar | I believe it is a case of PEBKAC |
| 06:18.37 | raster | sometimes if u use multiple repositories the packages on different ones conflict |
| 06:18.44 | raster | u may need to fix it |
| 06:18.55 | raster | u can avoid it by only using ubuntus core default repos |
| 06:18.57 | raster | generally |
| 06:19.02 | *** join/#openmoko CVirus (n=GoD@196.205.193.51) |
| 06:19.07 | raster | also its almost always fixable fairly easily |
| 06:21.37 | *** join/#openmoko unknown_lamer (n=clinton@cpe-071-077-055-135.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 06:22.08 | *** join/#openmoko deepjoy (n=dj@122.167.65.63) |
| 06:23.18 | justin111 | well i think im switching to slackware |
| 06:23.34 | justin111 | i just made a custom one with nimbleX OS maker |
| 06:24.01 | *** join/#openmoko bbb8 (n=bbb8@78.101.106.242) |
| 06:24.17 | justin111 | so now the qustion is fedora 8 or slackware |
| 06:24.26 | raster | my concolences |
| 06:24.34 | smlsfb | haha |
| 06:24.37 | raster | on the switch |
| 06:24.45 | smlsfb | not much of a choice he gives himself, huh? |
| 06:25.50 | justin111 | who me |
| 06:26.15 | justin111 | well i have one more blank CD |
| 06:26.22 | justin111 | after my nimbleX |
| 06:26.28 | justin111 | what do you recomend |
| 06:26.59 | smlsfb | debian w/o a gui. vim. emacs if you're really dedicated (i'm not) |
| 06:27.18 | justin111 | haha w/o gui |
| 06:27.20 | justin111 | yeah right |
| 06:27.32 | raster | ubuntu |
| 06:27.32 | justin111 | im a linux noob |
| 06:27.37 | justin111 | why raster |
| 06:27.48 | raster | it will more than most other distros "just work" |
| 06:27.50 | justin111 | i told you about my experice with kubuntu |
| 06:28.06 | raster | it will have one of the largest sets of packages availabel to easily install later with a simple browse thru a gui |
| 06:28.20 | raster | yup |
| 06:28.34 | raster | and u'll find fedora slackarwe and everyhting sooner or later wills crew u to |
| 06:28.40 | raster | in one way or another |
| 06:28.49 | justin111 | well thats just debain in general good hardwae support etc. hence their slogan "the universal operating system" |
| 06:29.00 | raster | u avoid screwage by updating as little as possible |
| 06:29.28 | justin111 | when i first installed ubuntu i had 125 updates |
| 06:30.03 | justin111 | skrew linux im going to PCBSD |
| 06:30.05 | justin111 | .. |
| 06:30.06 | justin111 | no lol |
| 06:30.17 | justin111 | thats what i had on my old computer for a few years |
| 06:30.21 | raster | those updates shoouldnt have screwed u |
| 06:30.48 | raster | the only times i have been screwed is becaus ei had conflicts betwene packages from OTHER repositories outside ubuntu main that had conflicting crap |
| 06:30.58 | t00na | well for something about as on topic as the current discussion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUpfmJs-uYM&feature=related |
| 06:31.01 | raster | and when i had a box that literally had its memory go bad |
| 06:31.29 | CVirus | binary distros suck |
| 06:31.40 | raster | t00na: hahahahaha |
| 06:31.52 | raster | CVirus: sourc distros suck |
| 06:31.59 | raster | i have to wait for days for the crap to compile |
| 06:32.30 | smlsfb | fink has been compiling gimp all day :( |
| 06:32.42 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE001217b19226-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 06:32.53 | smlsfb | no binaries yet for 10.5, i think |
| 06:33.16 | t00na | also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xsttxw15Vw&feature=related |
| 06:33.48 | justin111 | kick the baby omg lol |
| 06:34.05 | smlsfb | rofl those are both great |
| 06:34.14 | justin111 | i have made like 13241235412341234 notes to self never to have kids |
| 06:34.48 | justin111 | what web browsers do you guys use |
| 06:34.53 | raster | ffox |
| 06:35.02 | justin111 | opera |
| 06:35.29 | deepjoy | ff3beta2 |
| 06:35.42 | smlsfb | ffox, tab mix plus |
| 06:35.52 | t00na | And one more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUfowCnFzKc&feature=related |
| 06:36.05 | justin111 | i like opera for bit torrent and IRC built in |
| 06:36.28 | raster | OWNED! |
| 06:37.08 | justin111 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHO8l-Bd1O4 |
| 06:38.04 | justin111 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-L-0s-7-Z0 |
| 06:38.10 | smlsfb | naim/nirc for irc |
| 06:38.26 | justin111 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjpn3L3bSJQ |
| 06:38.30 | t00na | a bit more inspiring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJY1oKF9hvU |
| 06:38.31 | justin111 | those are all i ahve |
| 06:38.49 | justin111 | rofl |
| 06:41.03 | justin111 | freespire any good |
| 06:41.42 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@ip-64-15-152-71.static.privatedns.com) |
| 06:42.13 | justin111 | PCLOS is pretty good if you have a hardwired network otherwise its useless unless you wanna skrew with ndiswrapper |
| 06:42.22 | justin111 | raster: is freespire any good |
| 06:42.52 | raster | i dont use it |
| 06:42.55 | raster | i dont need to |
| 06:43.09 | justin111 | is it any good tho |
| 06:43.25 | raster | u ask me to tell u if its good and i've never used it |
| 06:43.29 | t00na | Just pick a distro that appeals to you and stick with it. |
| 06:44.42 | justin111 | oh |
| 06:45.00 | justin111 | thats the problem i cant find one that appeals to me when theres like 5000 |
| 06:45.02 | raster | i've used slackware, redhat, debian and ubuntu |
| 06:45.09 | raster | ubuntu has served me best so far |
| 06:45.14 | raster | and thus i stay with it |
| 06:46.14 | justin111 | i have gutsy sitting right next to me i just dont want to hose my system again cuz of apt |
| 06:46.44 | raster | apt does not tend to do that |
| 06:46.50 | raster | as i said before |
| 06:47.05 | raster | you had a weird rare glitch |
| 06:47.09 | raster | or u literally have broken hardware |
| 06:47.25 | raster | or it was a simple conflict simply fixed with the suggestions given by apt |
| 06:47.27 | justin111 | ha lol doubt that brand new computer |
| 06:47.29 | raster | eg apt-get -f install |
| 06:47.31 | justin111 | 3 weeks old |
| 06:47.31 | raster | or whatever |
| 06:47.52 | raster | it can have bits go wrong |
| 06:48.10 | raster | people have bought cars and driven them off the lot only to have the stop 1 mile donw the road |
| 06:48.12 | raster | it DOES happen |
| 06:48.14 | raster | as i said |
| 06:48.18 | justin111 | what GUI do you use |
| 06:48.36 | raster | the only time i ever really saw hosing was when i had one of my memory sims fuck up |
| 06:48.42 | raster | i use e17 |
| 06:48.44 | *** join/#openmoko tholin (n=tholin@85.8.6.155.static.se.wasadata.net) |
| 06:49.23 | justin111 | what is that |
| 06:49.29 | raster | enlightenment |
| 06:49.30 | justin111 | enlightenment |
| 06:49.33 | justin111 | lol |
| 06:49.39 | justin111 | is that any good |
| 06:49.44 | raster | don't ask me |
| 06:49.47 | raster | i'm biased |
| 06:49.49 | raster | i write it |
| 06:49.55 | justin111 | ahahaha |
| 06:49.57 | justin111 | lol |
| 06:50.11 | justin111 | i thought you where a OM dev |
| 06:51.05 | raster | i am |
| 06:51.34 | justin111 | i h8 kde 3.5 but im in love with kde4 GNOME is ok xfce is on my webserver |
| 06:52.01 | justin111 | i have never tried enlightenment im going to check it out |
| 06:52.26 | raster | you're in for a bit of work there |
| 06:52.27 | raster | :) |
| 06:52.38 | Vegar | err |
| 06:52.44 | Vegar | is your webserver running X? |
| 06:52.55 | raster | Vegar: he did say he's a noob |
| 06:53.10 | raster | that was just underscoring the fact :) |
| 06:54.00 | justin111 | yeah its running X i couldnt do it text based |
| 06:54.02 | justin111 | not that good |
| 06:54.20 | justin111 | is E a whole new window system like apart from X |
| 06:54.24 | raster | no |
| 06:54.29 | raster | its a windowmanager |
| 06:54.43 | justin111 | oh |
| 06:54.45 | raster | if u want to try it decentl u will end up needing to get it form cvs and compile/install yourself |
| 06:54.55 | raster | it wont hold your hand much |
| 06:55.03 | raster | its unreleased pre-alpha stuff atm |
| 06:55.20 | Vegar | I wish e17 had a system tray |
| 06:55.39 | smlsfb | http://www.elivecd.org/ for those of us who love it but are too lazy to compile it |
| 06:55.45 | justin111 | e comes on 15 diffrent distros |
| 06:56.00 | raster | Vegar: sue toe the crappiness of the spec and implementations of systray icons by apps and toolkits - its not going to happen |
| 06:56.00 | justin111 | http://distrowatch.com/search.php?category=All&origin=All&basedon=All&desktop=Enlightenment&architecture=All&status=Active |
| 06:56.12 | raster | smlsfb: the e17 snap they use there is actually years old |
| 06:56.14 | Vegar | raster: yeah, I read that |
| 06:56.28 | raster | justin111: and which version of it? |
| 06:56.40 | smlsfb | huh, did not know that |
| 06:56.42 | justin111 | i dunno latest i guess |
| 06:56.55 | raster | justin111: latest is 0.16.8 |
| 06:56.55 | smlsfb | very pretty, all the same |
| 06:56.56 | raster | released |
| 06:57.03 | raster | i am on 0.16.999.041 |
| 06:57.16 | raster | whihc is basically e17 (but not released) |
| 06:57.23 | raster | and u basically get that from cvs |
| 06:57.31 | smlsfb | i was very happy with e16 on my deb box |
| 06:57.42 | justin111 | Elive is the live CD right |
| 06:58.14 | smlsfb | as raster mentioned, it's got an old version of e17 |
| 06:59.18 | justin111 | oh |
| 06:59.24 | justin111 | why old |
| 06:59.44 | smlsfb | under development, hard to keep up |
| 07:00.02 | justin111 | oh |
| 07:05.56 | *** join/#openmoko drath_ (i=vmaster@p5B07D523.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 07:08.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1190 has been created by mail(AT)mmontour.net |
| 07:08.02 | cdbot2 | * * wm8753.c has incorrect "Mono Voice Playback Volume" definition |
| 07:08.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1190 |
| 07:13.34 | justin111 | i dont get ehy more people dont use linux its so much better |
| 07:21.04 | *** part/#openmoko justin111 (n=justinra@71-34-83-170.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 07:21.37 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 07:21.46 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=dr@vnsecurity.net) |
| 07:31.58 | *** join/#openmoko SP-8472 (i=8472@dslb-084-056-227-054.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 07:38.47 | t00na | now that's a stupid statement. |
| 07:38.52 | t00na | [00:14] <justin111> i dont get ehy more people dont use linux its so much better |
| 07:39.00 | t00na | because people don't care. |
| 07:39.13 | t00na | Try telling people the virtues of Linux. Just random people. |
| 07:39.18 | t00na | They don't give a damn. |
| 07:42.40 | madwoota | turn pc on, check email, click on web page in email from little johnny, browse a bit, turn pc off |
| 07:43.18 | madwoota | maybe even ... play a game ! like spider solitaire ! :P |
| 07:56.43 | *** join/#openmoko heikkit (n=chatzill@c-67-188-122-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 07:57.51 | *** join/#openmoko marsan (n=marsan@ti500720a080-2584.bb.online.no) |
| 07:59.17 | *** join/#openmoko justin111 (n=justinra@71-34-83-170.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 07:59.45 | justin111 | raster:i have decided to give ubuntu er kubuntu another try |
| 08:01.52 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@124-171-167-1.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 08:02.35 | *** join/#openmoko PosixIsPosi (n=andy@CPE-72-128-95-237.wi.res.rr.com) |
| 08:03.12 | *** join/#openmoko [[thufir]] (n=[[thufir@S01060016ec23af88.vc.shawcable.net) |
| 08:06.22 | *** join/#openmoko Mathiasdm (n=Mathias@d54C597B6.access.telenet.be) |
| 08:11.58 | raster | as i said |
| 08:12.00 | raster | i use ubuntu |
| 08:12.02 | raster | not debian |
| 08:12.24 | raster | ubuntu does tend to clean up/fix a lot of debian things compare to debian testing/unstable |
| 08:12.56 | justin111 | well ... ok its still debain based linux no? |
| 08:16.06 | raster | sure |
| 08:16.09 | raster | but very much modified |
| 08:16.19 | raster | its quite different in the result |
| 08:17.12 | *** join/#openmoko ThePizzaKing (n=jeff@220.239.221.34) |
| 08:17.16 | *** join/#openmoko grummel (n=Grummel@91.22.247.42) |
| 08:17.24 | *** join/#openmoko sparrow (n=sparrow@mortar.walled.net) |
| 08:17.49 | justin111 | then ehy do people who set up webservers under debain linux use vanilla debain instead of ubuntu debian is 2nd as a webserver centOS being 1 |
| 08:18.38 | raster | because debian tends to be much more conservative |
| 08:18.44 | raster | it doesnt use the newest stuff |
| 08:18.45 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@81.80-202-132.nextgentel.com) |
| 08:18.49 | raster | it uses old well tested stuff |
| 08:18.55 | raster | for a server u want stability |
| 08:19.06 | raster | not the latest and greatest (eg drivers, kernels, apps etc.) |
| 08:19.18 | raster | ubuntu tends to be much more up to date than debian (stable) |
| 08:19.20 | summatusmentis | because debian has a reputation of being extremely stable, and it supposed to have a good security setup too |
| 08:19.27 | justin111 | yeah i know but you just said ubuntu does tend to clean up/fix a lot of debian things compare to debian testing/unstable |
| 08:19.31 | raster | if u move to debian unstable/testing to try and get new versions of stuff |
| 08:19.39 | raster | then u WILLL HAVE PROBLEMS |
| 08:19.44 | raster | its called unstable/testing for a reason |
| 08:20.01 | t00na | justin111: that's like asking why don't you use a flood light to find a loose sock in your closet instead of a flashlight. |
| 08:20.14 | t00na | They have two totally different purposes. |
| 08:20.29 | justin111 | hmmm well for my webserver im still going to use cent 5.2 |
| 08:20.33 | summatusmentis | except, it's way more badass to use the floodlight :-) |
| 08:20.34 | justin111 | 5.1 |
| 08:20.56 | t00na | summatusmentis: and it's way more badass to use vanilla debian as a desktop OS |
| 08:21.12 | summatusmentis | lol, true |
| 08:21.26 | summatusmentis | although, I love my OS X |
| 08:21.39 | justin111 | OS X = BSD |
| 08:21.42 | t00na | OS X is a decent OS, but I hate Apple |
| 08:21.46 | t00na | justin111: no it doesn't. |
| 08:21.50 | t00na | It's based on BSD/Mach |
| 08:22.01 | t00na | "based on" != "=" |
| 08:22.05 | justin111 | so theres still open source elements to it |
| 08:22.18 | t00na | The kernel is repleased on teh APSL |
| 08:22.19 | summatusmentis | mostly just the kernel, and some of the cli utilities |
| 08:22.37 | t00na | which is just barely Open Source Definition-compatible. |
| 08:22.46 | summatusmentis | afaik, absolutely none of the GUI stuff is OSS |
| 08:22.53 | t00na | If you ask me, it really isn't. |
| 08:23.13 | t00na | it's way too specific to Apple to be truly open. |
| 08:23.28 | justin111 | OS X is i lil closed i dont know what i would want to have OS X or win XP |
| 08:23.36 | justin111 | Vista = suxk |
| 08:23.53 | rd_ | why vista sux? |
| 08:24.04 | t00na | Vista is a way of hanging yourself but you don't have the luxury of actually dying. |
| 08:24.16 | rd_ | not a real reason :p |
| 08:24.24 | t00na | rd_: Try networking or playing XP games with Vista. |
| 08:24.36 | rd_ | Leopard is more expensive than Vista |
| 08:24.53 | t00na | Leopard is hawt, though. |
| 08:25.18 | rd_ | yeah, but atleast u still can play those nice games, u cant with linux & osx |
| 08:25.35 | t00na | And it doesn't make me want to play Russian roulette with a fully-loaded pistol |
| 08:25.41 | rd_ | and vista has directx 10 |
| 08:25.44 | t00na | you can play the latest games. |
| 08:25.47 | rd_ | heh |
| 08:25.55 | t00na | Latest != Greatest |
| 08:26.11 | t00na | And we have plenty of games on the Linux side. |
| 08:26.27 | rd_ | yeah .. but still, no way can compare to windoze only games |
| 08:26.29 | t00na | Try World of Padman, OpenArena, Nexiuz, Chromium... |
| 08:26.30 | justin111 | skrew direct x open GL 3.0 FTW |
| 08:26.34 | t00na | nethack... |
| 08:26.55 | t00na | justin111: Please... Please please PLEASE... use proper grammar and syntax. |
| 08:27.31 | raster | justin111: and why exactly is opengl3 better than directx10? |
| 08:27.31 | t00na | Your half-assed perversion of the English language makes me want to eat myself alive. |
| 08:27.52 | justin111 | your not going to win rd i dont know why your trying to support vista in a linux user IRC |
| 08:27.56 | justin111 | for the most part |
| 08:28.09 | rd_ | yeah, i have the same question with raster |
| 08:28.12 | t00na | No jihands, please. |
| 08:28.17 | t00na | *jihad |
| 08:28.23 | rd_ | justin111, heh, i myself is a *nix user for 14++ years |
| 08:28.40 | justin111 | then why where you just supporting vista |
| 08:28.47 | t00na | We don't need an off-topic OS jihad in the OpenMoko channel. |
| 08:28.50 | t00na | justin111: He wasn't. |
| 08:28.52 | rd_ | all of my desktop/laptop (except company one) are using gentoo :) |
| 08:28.57 | t00na | He was asking why you were dissing it. |
| 08:29.01 | rd_ | justin111, i didnt say i support vista .. hhe |
| 08:29.04 | justin111 | oh |
| 08:29.06 | t00na | Why are you dissing Vista, justin111? |
| 08:29.14 | rd_ | but still u need valid reasons to say vista sux |
| 08:29.16 | rd_ | :) |
| 08:29.19 | t00na | In proper grammar and syntax, please. |
| 08:29.28 | raster | justin111: the problem is - if you have view on something - be it vista, linux,. osx, openmoko, symbian, android or anything else - you should have those opinions backed up with experience/fact |
| 08:29.37 | justin111 | i think microsoft should have another year or 2 of debugging it before releasing it to the consumer |
| 08:30.11 | raster | if you dont have a damn good reason to believe X is better than Y - then don't go around blurting it - it just ends up with religious wars not sensible discussions based on real hard facts |
| 08:30.30 | t00na | For exampple, I don't like Android because it's too corporate. |
| 08:30.33 | raster | justin111: same with every piece of open source |
| 08:30.36 | raster | most of it is very buggy |
| 08:30.45 | t00na | Everything's buggy. |
| 08:30.46 | raster | "release early, release often" |
| 08:30.50 | raster | so waht? |
| 08:30.52 | raster | ms does the same |
| 08:30.55 | raster | thay'll patch it. |
| 08:31.35 | justin111 | my brother comes to me pissed off telling me to fix his computer but all i do is hand him a live linux distro then he gets pissed and walks away. my brothers experince with "the blue screen" or random crashes tells me that vista is not a good OS |
| 08:31.36 | raster | if u want to have a go at MS for its directx work - you should see the state of OGL drivers on linux |
| 08:31.50 | raster | they are about as stable as a pin palancing on its tip |
| 08:31.53 | raster | balancing |
| 08:32.21 | raster | justin111:run compiz-fusion and find out how stable your linux box is. |
| 08:32.31 | raster | (as basically thats what vista is doing) |
| 08:32.38 | summatusmentis | beryl worked pretty well on my old computer |
| 08:32.40 | t00na | The reason people use Open Source consciously is for the freedom. |
| 08:32.57 | raster | summatusmentis: and run it day in and out for days on end :) |
| 08:33.03 | t00na | Beryl worked, until I actually used it for longer than 15 minutes. |
| 08:33.04 | raster | t00na: bingo |
| 08:33.10 | raster | t00na: AHHAHAHAHA |
| 08:33.12 | justin111 | haha |
| 08:33.16 | summatusmentis | raster: I did, until I upgraded |
| 08:33.28 | justin111 | compiz isnt that great |
| 08:33.30 | t00na | Compiz-Fusion worked, but all the little things attacked... |
| 08:33.36 | justin111 | does a desktop reallyj have to be pretty |
| 08:33.41 | summatusmentis | my vid card didn't support pixel shaders, but it worked, and I liked it! :-) |
| 08:33.42 | t00na | Like, the hardly noticeable things. |
| 08:33.44 | raster | justin111: for me it does |
| 08:33.47 | raster | i stare at it all day |
| 08:33.56 | t00na | I wouldn't mind them by themselves |
| 08:33.58 | raster | i want what i stare at to be pleasing to me |
| 08:34.10 | summatusmentis | raster: you are e17 right? |
| 08:34.15 | t00na | but they swarm up and make me want to stick my fingers into a pencil sharpener. |
| 08:34.19 | t00na | Which I almost did. |
| 08:34.23 | t00na | ;D |
| 08:34.24 | raster | summatusmentis: i guess :) |
| 08:34.29 | raster | summatusmentis: if you put it that way |
| 08:34.45 | summatusmentis | raster: well, primary developer, whatever you want to call it |
| 08:34.49 | justin111 | hehe then get KDE4 very efficent desktop, it gets rid of plain icons and adds highly customizable "widgets" |
| 08:35.12 | justin111 | itws fairly stable |
| 08:35.13 | justin111 | too |
| 08:35.40 | t00na | raster: you're the primary developer of E17??? |
| 08:35.41 | *** join/#openmoko Mathiasdm2 (n=Mathias@vpna149.ugent.be) |
| 08:36.04 | *** join/#openmoko Mathias (n=Mathias@d54C597B6.access.telenet.be) |
| 08:36.36 | raster | t00na: maybe |
| 08:36.56 | raster | justin111: why? why would i go use kde4? |
| 08:37.00 | justin111 | yeah he is isnt that crazy he works for OM and finds time to do e17 |
| 08:37.19 | justin111 | raster: i dunno just saying |
| 08:37.25 | raster | i write my own desktop |
| 08:37.30 | raster | why would i go USE someone elses? |
| 08:37.36 | raster | if i want something - i'll add it myself |
| 08:37.42 | t00na | i read an article about you... |
| 08:37.43 | t00na | i think... |
| 08:37.44 | raster | and it will do EXACTLY what i want the WAY i want |
| 08:37.46 | raster | because i wrote it |
| 08:37.47 | raster | :) |
| 08:37.51 | justin111 | raster: sorry i forgot |
| 08:38.20 | raster | believe it or not most open source devs actually work on their stuff in their spare time |
| 08:38.39 | raster | handling multiple things is not unusual |
| 08:38.51 | *** join/#openmoko polz (n=polz@cpe-213-157-235-31.dynamic.amis.net) |
| 08:40.43 | summatusmentis | raster: wanna come fix e17 on the zaurus? :-P |
| 08:40.52 | raster | it should just work |
| 08:40.58 | raster | it "just works" on the neo |
| 08:41.04 | raster | it "just works" on the n800 |
| 08:41.04 | summatusmentis | apparently has fallen into disarray |
| 08:41.12 | justin111 | i wish i knew how to do stuff like that i want to learn openGL but all i have is my 2 C++ books my web dev book my C book and a few others all having nothing to do with openGL |
| 08:41.13 | summatusmentis | or something, I don't know, not considered supported |
| 08:41.36 | raster | dunno |
| 08:41.55 | raster | if its a matter of your distribution not maintaing it or building it - thats defintiely "not my problem" :) |
| 08:41.59 | *** join/#openmoko dkirker (n=dkirker@69.229.198.200) |
| 08:42.40 | summatusmentis | raster: no, I know, I didn't think it was. Mostly just kidding |
| 08:42.41 | raster | i cant go buoilding e for every linux distro/architecture around for people |
| 08:42.43 | raster | :) |
| 08:43.13 | summatusmentis | once I get OE back up, and am able to get my head into the code, I hope to get it to supported status |
| 08:43.27 | raster | e is in OE |
| 08:43.38 | raster | micky should have my .bb changes |
| 08:43.47 | raster | that clean up the build |
| 08:46.06 | justin111 | is neo's screen bigger then iphone |
| 08:46.29 | summatusmentis | raster: I know it is, angstrom apparently doesn't support it currently |
| 08:49.23 | raster | justin111: double the # of pixels - yes |
| 08:49.50 | justin111 | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:50.18 | justin111 | what is the diffrence between AGPS and GPS |
| 08:51.22 | summatusmentis | agps is assisted, uses cell towers to figure out where you are |
| 08:51.24 | summatusmentis | iir |
| 08:51.25 | summatusmentis | iirc* |
| 08:53.11 | justin111 | no sattilitess at all |
| 08:53.45 | *** join/#openmoko fgau (n=Administ@pD95393A6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 08:53.50 | summatusmentis | I don't think so, but I'm not sure |
| 08:53.56 | t00na | Hey, there's dead skin behind my ears. |
| 08:54.13 | dexi | are you sure ? |
| 08:54.18 | justin111 | t00na: thats gross lol |
| 08:54.25 | t00na | dexi: quite sure! |
| 08:54.29 | dexi | damn |
| 08:54.32 | dexi | thats bad |
| 08:54.42 | t00na | I rub my finger back there, and there's all this flaky waxy stuff |
| 08:54.56 | summatusmentis | time for me to go to bed |
| 08:55.02 | t00na | Bah |
| 08:55.03 | dexi | well, just cut your ears off : ) |
| 08:55.04 | summatusmentis | goodnight all |
| 08:55.07 | t00na | It's been time for me |
| 08:55.10 | t00na | but whatever. |
| 08:55.17 | t00na | I'm busy. |
| 08:55.24 | t00na | g'night, summatusmentis |
| 08:57.58 | t00na | g'night |
| 08:58.03 | *** part/#openmoko t00na (n=tuna@unaffiliated/t00na) |
| 09:07.11 | *** join/#openmoko t_s_o (n=tso@25.84-49-134.nextgentel.com) |
| 09:08.53 | justin111 | raster: what system arch are you running |
| 09:13.44 | *** join/#openmoko sparrow (n=sparrow@mortar.walled.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.44 | *** join/#openmoko justin111 (n=justinra@71-34-83-170.ptld.qwest.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.44 | *** join/#openmoko unknown_lamer (n=clinton@cpe-071-077-055-135.nc.res.rr.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.45 | *** join/#openmoko yang__ (n=yang@cpe-212-18-59-220.dynamic.amis.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.45 | *** join/#openmoko twistx (n=no@64.30.190.4) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.45 | *** join/#openmoko jaebird (n=jaebird@unaffiliated/jaebird) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.45 | *** join/#openmoko zash_ (n=zash@82.182.247.191) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.45 | *** join/#openmoko wibbit (n=douglasf@SAGW-PRIMARY.ARC.COM) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.45 | *** join/#openmoko RP (i=1000@tim.rpsys.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.45 | *** join/#openmoko MarkTheDaemon (n=markthed@phpbb/modifications/MarkTheDaemon) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.45 | *** join/#openmoko cb22 (n=federico@moinmoin/developer/federico) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.45 | *** join/#openmoko aevin (i=eivindsy@unaffiliated/aevin) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.45 | *** join/#openmoko rushforth (n=rushfort@sifl.rushforthnetworks.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.45 | *** join/#openmoko larstobi (n=larstobi@213.151.142.3) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.46 | *** join/#openmoko chrysn (n=chrysn@86.59.50.121) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.46 | *** join/#openmoko jpieper (n=jpieper@207-180-187-171.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.46 | *** join/#openmoko starox_ (n=fredo@sd-11162.dedibox.fr) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:13.46 | *** join/#openmoko CM (i=cm@shaka.acc.umu.se) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:16.23 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@124-171-213-147.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 09:16.52 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (n=fredsiba@nrbg-4dbfabbe.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 09:16.56 | *** join/#openmoko justin111 (n=justinra@71-34-83-170.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 09:19.18 | justin111 | raster: do you run 64 or 32 bit system arch |
| 09:19.33 | raster | justin111: 32 |
| 09:19.57 | justin111 | raster: what kind of CPU do you have |
| 09:21.53 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@M98ca.m.pppool.de) |
| 09:25.26 | justin111 | raster: what happened to all the orange/white ones |
| 09:25.43 | *** join/#openmoko _Krieger_ (n=warsword@80.90.233.15) |
| 09:26.50 | *** join/#openmoko fobos (n=fobos@78.90.88.244) |
| 09:27.08 | *** part/#openmoko mad (n=mad@woota.net) |
| 09:28.40 | justin111 | raster: what are you shooting for on neo power management |
| 09:28.49 | *** join/#openmoko madwoota (n=mad@woota.net) |
| 09:32.36 | *** join/#openmoko orion_ (n=orion@124-171-179-134.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 09:40.07 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@78-86-213-209.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 09:44.27 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AE45D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 09:48.11 | *** join/#openmoko geaaru (n=geaaru@host190-213-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 09:50.31 | *** join/#openmoko jserv-- (n=jserv@220-137-160-57.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 09:52.37 | *** join/#openmoko jpozlovsky (n=jindra@rb5cc115.net.upc.cz) |
| 10:12.50 | *** join/#openmoko Aniruddha_NL (n=Aniruddh@s5590cf7b.adsl.wanadoo.nl) |
| 10:21.14 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@84-74-88-75.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 10:21.28 | *** join/#openmoko El_Salvador (n=Brescia@adsl-ull-67-155.44-151.net24.it) |
| 10:47.37 | *** join/#openmoko ericthefish (n=ivan@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 10:55.51 | *** join/#openmoko ahbritto (n=guest@adsl-69-104-2-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 10:57.36 | *** join/#openmoko zedstar (n=john@82-44-200-69.cable.ubr08.haye.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 10:59.22 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-182-157.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 11:23.35 | *** join/#openmoko ccube_ (n=ccube@e177210165.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 11:27.47 | *** join/#openmoko ajbrun (n=ajbrun@86.155.34.206) |
| 11:28.46 | *** join/#openmoko miip (n=miip@p54A542F0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:28.54 | *** join/#openmoko miip_ (n=miip@p54A542F0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:32.52 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@213.155.227.229) |
| 11:36.18 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-182-157.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 11:36.21 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@M98ca.m.pppool.de) |
| 11:36.30 | *** join/#openmoko danilos (n=danilo@canonical/launchpad/danilos) |
| 11:44.47 | *** join/#openmoko RP (i=1000@tim.rpsys.net) |
| 11:45.01 | ajbrun | anyone know if the battery in the freerunner is the kind that can be charged whenever, or is it one of those that needs to be drained before charging? |
| 11:46.23 | *** join/#openmoko pH5 (n=ph5@p5485D745.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:48.34 | *** join/#openmoko wolfgang_spraul (n=wolfgang@123.99.1.242) |
| 11:50.39 | SpeedEvil | whenever |
| 11:50.47 | SpeedEvil | as is the current one |
| 11:50.52 | ajbrun | good good |
| 12:12.01 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=khmhm@dsl51B69ADF.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 12:12.42 | *** join/#openmoko edistar_ (n=edistar@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 12:12.45 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@78.42.60.129) |
| 12:13.00 | PBeck | hoi |
| 12:14.03 | *** join/#openmoko voi1 (n=void@M3754P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 12:15.15 | ajbrun | hoi hoi |
| 12:15.26 | smlsfb | ioh? |
| 12:15.40 | ajbrun | hoi. |
| 12:16.12 | *** join/#openmoko haakeyar (n=haakeyar@c9C364BC1.dhcp.bluecom.no) |
| 12:17.31 | smlsfb | aye |
| 12:17.41 | ajbrun | eya? |
| 12:18.25 | smlsfb | hai! |
| 12:18.41 | ajbrun | no wai! |
| 12:19.47 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervisco) |
| 12:23.11 | *** join/#openmoko Gybrush (n=Gybrush@f053153080.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 12:27.57 | *** join/#openmoko Grummel69 (n=Grummel@p5B16FC4C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:30.16 | *** join/#openmoko Christian__ (n=Grummel@p5B16D632.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:39.56 | CIA-15 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r49 10/trunk/software/py-proto/ (COPYING GPL INSTALL setup.py): py-proto: add distutils magic |
| 12:41.15 | *** join/#openmoko ccube_ (n=ccube@e177210165.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 12:41.41 | *** join/#openmoko marcel_m_ (n=marcel_m@86.59.65.236) |
| 12:44.27 | *** join/#openmoko dcordes (n=user0815@f049016077.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 12:44.53 | *** join/#openmoko orion__ (n=orion@124-171-221-69.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 12:46.25 | *** join/#openmoko marcel_m_ (n=marcel_m@86.59.65.236) |
| 12:47.38 | *** join/#openmoko matsimoto (n=barmeier@dslb-088-072-000-037.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 12:47.42 | PBeck | hallo, has anybody convert the ProE-Files for the case of the gta* devices into other formats in particular in dxf? |
| 12:47.43 | *** join/#openmoko Valnar (n=Miranda@ip-62-143-211-37.PH-1411C-BSR64K-01.ish.de) |
| 12:47.46 | *** join/#openmoko marcel_m (n=marcel_m@86.59.65.236) |
| 12:48.16 | PBeck | it would be nice to see the files, without to buy ProE ;) |
| 12:50.13 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@124-171-213-149.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 12:51.03 | *** join/#openmoko simon_ (n=simon@dyn167240.wlan.jku.at) |
| 12:59.47 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 13:00.25 | voi1 | how can i make snapshots of my current rootfs? |
| 13:02.31 | balrog-kun | voi1: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973#Initial_backup |
| 13:03.06 | voi1 | thx |
| 13:03.27 | SpeedEvil | Though I don't know anyone that'd want to backup the initial rootfs. |
| 13:03.42 | balrog-kun | i did :) |
| 13:03.54 | balrog-kun | gllin was there, and there was no other way to get gllin at this time |
| 13:04.02 | SpeedEvil | (on a purchased phone with a blank rootfs) |
| 13:04.24 | balrog-kun | i dunno, i'd backup anyway |
| 13:07.54 | *** join/#openmoko jpozlovsky (n=jindra@rb5cc115.net.upc.cz) |
| 13:12.50 | *** join/#openmoko ccube (n=ccube@e177210165.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 13:13.48 | mickeyl | opinion: stay with domain-specific taxonomy or try to unify similar concepts? |
| 13:13.52 | mickeyl | actual example: |
| 13:14.20 | mickeyl | call-handling deals with "Initiate/Release" |
| 13:14.30 | mickeyl | pdp-handling deals with "Activate/Deactivate" |
| 13:14.43 | mickeyl | should the high level API use initiate/release for both? |
| 13:15.37 | SpeedEvil | You may multiply activate GSM - multi-way calling |
| 13:16.01 | balrog-kun | Initiate probably takes a prameter, like a phone number |
| 13:16.14 | SpeedEvil | As may pdp |
| 13:16.17 | balrog-kun | not sure what Activate does exactly, but probably not the same type of parameter |
| 13:16.20 | SpeedEvil | APN, ... |
| 13:16.29 | *** join/#openmoko playya__ (n=playya@p508B0F31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 13:16.32 | mickeyl | well |
| 13:16.39 | mickeyl | activate would take an id here |
| 13:16.44 | mickeyl | a context idea |
| 13:16.45 | SpeedEvil | (thinking of the roaming case) |
| 13:16.48 | mickeyl | s/idea/id |
| 13:16.56 | mickeyl | initiate would take a number, right |
| 13:16.59 | mickeyl | so |
| 13:17.03 | mickeyl | different params, different method names |
| 13:17.21 | SpeedEvil | I don't see a compelling reason to unify them. |
| 13:17.26 | mickeyl | right |
| 13:17.33 | mickeyl | ya, i agree |
| 13:17.44 | SpeedEvil | Especially as you'll typically only have one PDP |
| 13:17.49 | balrog-kun | i'd stay with differing names too |
| 13:18.07 | SpeedEvil | If youcould have hundreds, then moving it into a similar idea to phone-numbers might make sense. |
| 13:18.42 | mickeyl | yep. convinced. |
| 13:19.31 | *** join/#openmoko ifeel (n=ifeel@151.70.186.214) |
| 13:22.07 | *** join/#openmoko mzb (n=ubernut@ppp108-88.static.internode.on.net) |
| 13:27.08 | *** join/#openmoko C7__ (n=C7@32-27.76-83.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 13:29.12 | voi1 | r u all member of the 'core-team' ? |
| 13:29.26 | voi1 | *members |
| 13:32.17 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 13:32.43 | SpeedEvil | Maybe a dozen at most are. |
| 13:32.51 | SpeedEvil | And most of those are rarely here. |
| 13:33.01 | voi1 | oh |
| 13:33.18 | SpeedEvil | If you have questions... |
| 13:33.54 | voi1 | noone at the moment |
| 13:36.02 | CIA-15 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r50 10/trunk/standards/otapi/ (4 files): |
| 13:36.02 | CIA-15 | freesmartphone.org: otapi: don't try to unify slightly different concepts |
| 13:36.02 | CIA-15 | freesmartphone.org: it's more confusing than having to remember different method names |
| 13:36.34 | *** join/#openmoko tobkra (n=tobkra__@wrzb-590dfb6a.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 13:38.17 | voi1 | oh, there is one; in the suspend mode (which i can activate in the gui), the gsm is deactivated, right? |
| 13:38.28 | SpeedEvil | sort-of |
| 13:38.50 | SpeedEvil | It's not deactivated - and may wake the phone from suspend on ring |
| 13:38.53 | SpeedEvil | but it won't then work |
| 13:39.00 | SpeedEvil | (the modem) |
| 13:39.21 | voi1 | okay, so it's no hardware-issure and it will probably work in the future? |
| 13:39.36 | SpeedEvil | Seemingly, yes |
| 13:39.49 | voi1 | k |
| 13:40.00 | SpeedEvil | Software-wise, it's a bit annoying |
| 13:42.50 | haakeyar | What is the policy on the bug summary when you have a patch? http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/bugzilla/bugwritinghelp.html doesn't say anything about it. I see that some people use (patch) at the end, others use [patch] or [PATCH] at the beginning. |
| 13:45.40 | SpeedEvil | Never mind. |
| 13:45.55 | SpeedEvil | I have not had enough sleep, and occasionally may make silly comments. |
| 13:46.06 | SpeedEvil | I don't think there is a standard. |
| 13:46.29 | maito | a black eyepatch would be very cool |
| 13:48.35 | *** join/#openmoko doc|home (n=doc@gentoo/contributor/doc-007) |
| 13:48.42 | haakeyar | SpeedEvil: Ok, will probably use [PATCH], then. |
| 13:48.57 | haakeyar | Thanks |
| 13:49.35 | *** join/#openmoko zedstar (n=john@dev.zedstar.com) |
| 13:51.02 | SpeedEvil | maito: I was just thinking of a black eyepatch, with the OM logo back-illuminated in orange. |
| 13:51.39 | Sup3rkiddo | ~lart SpeedEvil for lame jokes |
| 13:51.39 | apt | blasts SpeedEvil with a huge firehose then strangles SpeedEvil with it for lame jokes |
| 13:58.14 | *** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21) |
| 14:01.42 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-182-157.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 14:03.46 | *** join/#openmoko dcordes_ (n=user0815@f049019031.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 14:07.27 | maito | pirates wear them |
| 14:10.18 | *** join/#openmoko polz (n=polz@cpe-213-157-235-31.dynamic.amis.net) |
| 14:13.58 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AE45D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:20.15 | SpeedEvil | Can anyone confirm that the Dash GPS is not based on OM |
| 14:20.18 | SpeedEvil | Ideally with a link |
| 14:21.49 | borg_ | not? i thought it is |
| 14:22.36 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=khmhm@dsl51B69ADF.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 14:22.38 | cb22 | [[ Citation Needed ]] |
| 14:23.32 | maito | Im gonna make a sign with [[ Citation Needed ]] if I have to go to some political occasion |
| 14:23.36 | borg_ | http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/index.jsp?epi-content=NEWS_VIEW_POPUP_TYPE&newsId=20080102005237&ndmHsc=v2*A1196773200000*B1199385296000*DgroupByDate*J2*L1*N1000837*Zopenmoko&newsLang=en&beanID=202776713&viewID=news_view_popup |
| 14:24.02 | borg_ | mh |
| 14:24.31 | cb22 | maito: heh |
| 14:25.45 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 14:28.26 | SpeedEvil | borg_: it looks like it might be on further research. |
| 14:28.33 | SpeedEvil | I hate fuzzy press releases. |
| 14:29.01 | borg_ | right |
| 14:29.17 | SpeedEvil | WTF can't OM at the time of introducing new devices running OM at the time just create a one page product brief on the wiki. |
| 14:29.39 | SpeedEvil | As I understand it from things then. |
| 14:30.00 | SpeedEvil | This has really very little at teh moment to do with openmoko as such. |
| 14:30.15 | borg_ | but there are no patches for the dash device at all in the repositories of oe and om |
| 14:30.25 | SpeedEvil | It's probably the HXD8 (or whatever the devicename is) |
| 14:30.26 | borg_ | so they are doing it in secret? |
| 14:30.47 | SpeedEvil | With a limited subset of the OM tree - maybe just the kernel and a few more bits. |
| 14:30.58 | SpeedEvil | running Dashes application fullscreen. |
| 14:31.32 | SpeedEvil | You won't ever see an openmoko brand anywhere on it, and it probably doesn't use any of the UI libraries |
| 14:31.57 | borg_ | yes |
| 14:32.02 | borg_ | i dont see a problem there |
| 14:32.27 | borg_ | the question is if they do release the code of there things |
| 14:32.57 | borg_ | if dash is just another totally closed embedded device that uses linux and you cant do anything with it |
| 14:33.32 | borg_ | where is the advantage? |
| 14:35.09 | balrog-kun | well, there wasn't supposed to be any advantage |
| 14:35.16 | balrog-kun | afaik dash is just a consumer device |
| 14:35.22 | balrog-kun | dash is not neo1973 |
| 14:35.36 | balrog-kun | but you still can do stuff with it much like with the TomTom Go |
| 14:36.32 | maito | how about nokia n810? |
| 14:36.50 | balrog-kun | i think it is confirmed officially that the HXD8 == Dash Express |
| 14:37.47 | balrog-kun | it uses a kernel made by OpenMoko Inc and runs on top of OpenMoko (officially) but the rest is up to Dash Inc (or whatever they are called) |
| 14:38.58 | ScaredyCat | did somebody just break libgpephone_svn.bb |
| 14:39.01 | *** join/#openmoko kdean06 (n=Kevin@fsf/member/kdean06) |
| 14:47.29 | *** join/#openmoko konqui[tm] (i=freenode@deinbnc.go4bnc.de) |
| 14:47.38 | SpeedEvil | Ok - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenMoko#Hardware |
| 14:47.44 | SpeedEvil | Does that look sane ? |
| 14:48.54 | Vegar | yeah |
| 14:49.28 | Vegar | have the MLs been unusually quiet this weekend, or is my mail broken? |
| 14:50.03 | SpeedEvil | The MLs have been broken a good half-dozen times in the past. |
| 14:50.22 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@CPE-58-170-89-113.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 14:50.32 | SpeedEvil | Sometimes for days |
| 14:50.37 | SpeedEvil | check the archives on the wiki |
| 14:50.49 | balrog-kun | SpeedEvil: ugh, i thought it was announced much earlier? |
| 14:50.50 | SpeedEvil | at the top of the main page |
| 14:51.13 | balrog-kun | i saw a post on jserv--'s blog about the Dash somewehre in November, i think |
| 14:51.25 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: I was editing someone elses post |
| 14:51.42 | balrog-kun | i didn't understand what the post said but there were links to the dash pages and a note about it running on openmoko :) |
| 14:51.46 | SpeedEvil | I initially deleted it as I thought it was wrong based on images from dashes website, so deleted |
| 14:51.58 | Mononoke | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:Neo1973:Alternate_Cases:Solar_power ?? |
| 14:52.10 | Mononoke | is that sane ? ^.^ |
| 14:52.10 | SpeedEvil | Mononoke: ?????? |
| 14:52.20 | SpeedEvil | Mononoke: many of the case ideas are not sane. |
| 14:52.45 | balrog-kun | SpeedEvil: also, the FAQ has a section on devices that can run OpenMoko, there are more than just Neo1973 and FreeRunner |
| 14:53.03 | balrog-kun | also, NetBSD runs on Neo1973 |
| 14:53.10 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: are there any case ideas that are sane? |
| 14:53.21 | haakeyar | Hm... How do I actually create a ticket with a patch in bugzilla? Should it be uploaded after I've created the ticket? |
| 14:53.22 | cesarb | 'morning all (though it's almost 13:00 already) |
| 14:53.27 | haakeyar | I've only used trac before, and there you can select that you have files to attach to the ticket. |
| 14:53.34 | SpeedEvil | However I think it's reasonable to mention core hardware first. - that developed by FIC and actually having patches in SVN |
| 14:53.47 | cesarb | haakeyar: you upload after creating |
| 14:53.56 | balrog-kun | haakeyar: yes, iirc you first create a bug and then atach the patches |
| 14:54.04 | balrog-kun | attach |
| 14:54.28 | haakeyar | Ok, thanks |
| 14:55.34 | cesarb | found out that there was a initialization order problem and cpufreq was "forgetting" the timer notifier, which is why the timer wasn't being changed to match |
| 14:56.00 | cesarb | but the way I tried to fix yesterday was utterly wrong (it tried to kzalloc before enough was set up... or something like that) |
| 14:56.48 | balrog-kun | ugh, half of the See Also links on the WP OpenMooko page have nothing to do with OpenMoko |
| 14:56.53 | *** join/#openmoko smartbhai (n=smartbha@116.68.99.149) |
| 14:57.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1191 has been created by haakeyar-mailinglists(AT)bluezone.no |
| 14:57.02 | cdbot2 | * * oko-terminal2: Tab or window is not closed when hitting EOF or exit |
| 14:57.02 | cesarb | balrog-kun: {{sofixit}} |
| 14:57.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1191 |
| 14:57.13 | *** join/#openmoko Marex-notebook (n=marex@gwfm10-3-250.802.cz) |
| 14:57.14 | balrog-kun | cesarb: okies :) |
| 14:58.20 | borg_ | mh, i think the german openmoko article in wikipedia is slightly better than the english one, perhaps someone can translate some parts? |
| 15:00.20 | *** join/#openmoko BlackBsd (n=brian@72.168.193.117) |
| 15:02.17 | *** join/#openmoko BlackBsd (n=brian@72.168.193.117) |
| 15:02.30 | XorA|gone | borg_: there are more German openmoko staff than English |
| 15:08.12 | *** join/#openmoko marsan (n=marsan@ti500720a080-2584.bb.online.no) |
| 15:18.52 | balrog-kun | weird, the kernel reads the time/date off the PCF50606 RTC and then sets the system date to exactly this date + one month |
| 15:19.32 | SpeedEvil | fun |
| 15:20.59 | Stephmw | maybe it's assuming months are 1-based instead of 0-based? |
| 15:21.35 | *** join/#openmoko TAsn (n=TAsn@89.1.25.131.dynamic.barak-online.net) |
| 15:23.00 | balrog-kun | yes, very likely, but it worked ok with earlier kernels |
| 15:25.51 | Vegar | it's been like that for a while |
| 15:28.31 | balrog-kun | also there's an Oops in usb_hcd_platform_shutdown() during shutdown |
| 15:29.26 | cesarb | balrog-kun: welcome to the world of pre-release software. |
| 15:35.35 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@dsbg-4db7baec.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 15:38.28 | *** join/#openmoko OJW (n=OJW@87-194-198-122.bethere.co.uk) |
| 15:52.10 | *** join/#openmoko p3t3r___ (n=chatzill@dslb-088-070-186-052.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 15:55.52 | *** join/#openmoko trivex (n=trivex@CPE00112f8785ab-CM000f9f50281e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 15:58.10 | voi1 | are you from germany, borg_ ? |
| 15:59.34 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervisco) |
| 15:59.36 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AE45D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:00.43 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-21.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 16:01.25 | *** join/#openmoko Mathiasdm2 (n=Mathias@d54C597B6.access.telenet.be) |
| 16:01.56 | *** join/#openmoko AlexJTanner (n=alex@68-187-80-127.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com) |
| 16:02.00 | *** join/#openmoko Kryczek (i=kryczek@faked.name) |
| 16:08.45 | torpor | yo |
| 16:16.50 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@212-41-102-215.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 16:17.10 | *** join/#openmoko Mathiasdm2 (n=Mathias@d54C597B6.access.telenet.be) |
| 16:19.29 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 16:21.55 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@M98ca.m.pppool.de) |
| 16:35.17 | *** join/#openmoko jpozlovsky (n=jindra@rb5cc115.net.upc.cz) |
| 16:36.56 | *** join/#openmoko ken_ (n=user@84.92.70.37) |
| 16:41.12 | *** join/#openmoko wibbit_ (n=douglasf@SAGW-PRIMARY.ARC.COM) |
| 16:42.26 | *** join/#openmoko wibbit__ (n=douglasf@SAGW-PRIMARY.ARC.COM) |
| 16:49.27 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@cpc1-acto9-0-0-cust931.brnt.cable.ntl.com) |
| 16:51.06 | *** join/#openmoko grummel (n=Grummel@p5B16CEAF.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:52.49 | *** join/#openmoko Virtuall (n=virtuall@87.110.198.224) |
| 16:54.59 | voi1 | does anyone know a working navigation-program for OM? |
| 16:55.27 | *** join/#openmoko Grummel69 (n=Grummel@p5B16CABF.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:57.06 | borg_ | voi1: yes i am from germany |
| 16:57.09 | borg_ | voi1: navit works |
| 16:57.21 | borg_ | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Navit |
| 16:57.48 | borg_ | but it is not easy to set it up |
| 16:57.49 | voi1 | oh, thx, and you got maps for every location? |
| 16:58.10 | borg_ | you can use openstreetmap |
| 16:58.17 | borg_ | but that is not complete of course |
| 16:58.31 | SpeedEvil | With openstreetmap, and a GPS, you have the most complete map possible. |
| 16:58.43 | summatusmentis | how complete is most complete? |
| 16:58.44 | borg_ | you can use navit with google maps |
| 16:58.45 | SpeedEvil | Of course - it may take you some time to fill it in. |
| 16:58.54 | borg_ | there are download scripts for that somewhere in the internet |
| 16:59.04 | borg_ | but it is not known if this is legal ;) |
| 16:59.05 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@cpc1-acto9-0-0-cust931.brnt.cable.ntl.com) |
| 16:59.11 | voi1 | cool |
| 16:59.30 | voi1 | hm.. i tried Pyroute, but it didn't work |
| 16:59.42 | borg_ | google definetly does not like it when people download there whole maps, but it is possible |
| 16:59.54 | SpeedEvil | borg_: it clearly violates the expressed terms of service from google. |
| 17:00.14 | SpeedEvil | borg_: if this is a binding contract, and is in fact legal will vary by locality. |
| 17:00.27 | SpeedEvil | But it's probably generally a violation of copyright. |
| 17:00.34 | summatusmentis | I'm to understand that I would need a gps device in order to test the gps via qemu-1973? |
| 17:00.42 | SpeedEvil | summatusmentis: no |
| 17:00.53 | SpeedEvil | summatusmentis: you can use gpsd to fake GPS |
| 17:01.04 | voi1 | Is wiki enough to set up a working navit-environment? |
| 17:01.04 | SpeedEvil | Or replay a real logfile |
| 17:01.05 | borg_ | voi1: so if you use the maps from google, it is probably not a good idea to make them available via download on your homepage |
| 17:01.43 | voi1 | ya |
| 17:01.53 | *** join/#openmoko gopi (n=gopi@adsl-065-012-206-033.sip.bct.bellsouth.net) |
| 17:03.03 | borg_ | voi1: but you will need a bigger sd card to use big maps |
| 17:03.41 | voi1 | i already thought about buying a bigger sd card |
| 17:03.43 | borg_ | i think germany from openstreetmap is something like 2gb |
| 17:03.57 | voi1 | my country is smaller :> |
| 17:03.58 | voi1 | :D |
| 17:03.59 | SpeedEvil | borg_: in crappy XML |
| 17:04.06 | borg_ | right |
| 17:04.09 | voi1 | why crappy? |
| 17:04.23 | mjr | yeah, the data seemed to get a whole lot smaller when converting to navit's binary format |
| 17:04.23 | borg_ | but thats all what navit can read, imo |
| 17:04.26 | borg_ | atm |
| 17:04.29 | SpeedEvil | vio: because it's some 30-40 times bigger than a sane format. |
| 17:04.56 | voi1 | k |
| 17:05.08 | mjr | borg_, see above, that's why you convert it for the phone |
| 17:05.16 | OJW | voi1: what didn't work about pyroute? |
| 17:05.21 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: XML is supposed to be 30-40 times bigger than a sane format, and then gain it all back when gzipped |
| 17:05.42 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: it's the reason xml tags are almost all lowercase (it tends to compress slightly better) |
| 17:05.51 | voi1 | OJW: i think it has to do with downloading the map. |
| 17:05.58 | mjr | well at least it compresses better if they're all consistent |
| 17:06.04 | borg_ | mjr: ah, you mean this osm2navit thing? |
| 17:06.06 | borg_ | i already used it :) |
| 17:06.07 | mjr | yeah |
| 17:06.17 | OJW | bulk downloading tiles on pyroute doesn't work yet |
| 17:06.25 | borg_ | now i am not sure if the binary data is 2 gig or the xml data |
| 17:06.26 | borg_ | mhmhmhmh |
| 17:06.37 | voi1 | oh, i didn't know |
| 17:07.17 | *** join/#openmoko pvanhoof (n=pvanhoof@d54C0EE14.access.telenet.be) |
| 17:07.47 | OJW | the gui is a bit misleading - gui for bulk downloads is complete, but the functionality isn't |
| 17:07.57 | voi1 | borg_: do you have tutorials/links/something like this to download whole maps from google? |
| 17:08.41 | SpeedEvil | borg_: you can pack most/all of the planet into 2G with the appropriate binary format |
| 17:08.42 | voi1 | i didn't see anything of the gui yet. |
| 17:10.49 | OJW | ? it doesn't run? |
| 17:11.53 | *** join/#openmoko suuuper (n=suuuper@ppp-11-178.32-151.iol.it) |
| 17:11.54 | voi1 | ojw: it tried to download some stuff in the initialize-phrase, but it got no data; so it crashes. |
| 17:12.02 | *** join/#openmoko biertrinken (n=biertrin@p54978DD7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:12.28 | OJW | ok |
| 17:12.32 | voi1 | ojw: i don't know the exact reasen. my try was a few weeks ago. |
| 17:12.35 | OJW | with no net connection? |
| 17:12.50 | voi1 | ojw: it had. |
| 17:14.40 | *** join/#openmoko grummel (n=Grummel@p5B16E3DF.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:14.57 | *** join/#openmoko blckdove (n=ipo@c-67-175-151-66.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 17:18.24 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE001217b19226-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 17:19.01 | blckdove | Just found this project and I have question about HW: If I now order currectly available hw, will future "end user" apps be supported to this device (Planning to pass the old hw later to my wife and get the new one) or is the old hw going to be garbage later? |
| 17:19.21 | blckdove | that is 01 vs 02 hw |
| 17:19.36 | voi1 | lol |
| 17:19.51 | OJW | does the old hardware have long enough battery life for use in that application? |
| 17:20.29 | mjr | ojw, I think it's a consensus still that it can be |
| 17:20.50 | blckdove | that would be no then |
| 17:21.15 | mjr | aaanyway, at least mickey has said things along the lines of gta01 being supported |
| 17:21.22 | cesarb | blckdove: other than the bluetooth wakeup issue and the 850 issue, there is nothing (other than it being slower) preventing 01 from being quite usable |
| 17:21.55 | blckdove | suitable for normal phone usage that would be for her |
| 17:22.37 | voi1 | if the suspend-issue would work ... |
| 17:24.55 | blckdove | cesarb: can you refer bugzilla id:s on the issues you just mentioned? |
| 17:24.59 | *** part/#openmoko matsimoto (n=barmeier@dslb-088-072-000-037.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 17:25.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1192 has been created by sean_chiang(AT)openmoko.com |
| 17:25.02 | cdbot2 | * * unknown reason cause TI GSM modem always return |
| 17:25.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1192 |
| 17:25.54 | mjr | yeah suspend would be necessary but afaik that's still considered a software issue and thus fixable |
| 17:27.45 | cesarb | blckdove: not finding them on bugzilla right now (they were mostly discussed on IRC and MLs) |
| 17:27.58 | cesarb | blckdove: ah, there's also bug#666 (the 3G SIM firmware issue) |
| 17:28.36 | *** join/#openmoko Q_Continuum (n=Q@75-168-118-115.mpls.qwest.net) |
| 17:32.01 | *** join/#openmoko rtp (n=rtp@2a01:5d8:58a6:7960:20e:cff:fedc:7859) |
| 17:34.04 | *** join/#openmoko Tobi (n=tobi@p5B0077CD.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:34.23 | blckdove | hmmm.. maybe it is better to wait for the 02 hw |
| 17:34.36 | blckdove | I hate to wait tho =D |
| 17:35.24 | voi1 | additionally 01 has no wifi. |
| 17:35.48 | *** join/#openmoko maito_ (n=maito@a88-115-217-86.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 17:37.42 | OJW | how long is the wait now? still 2 months? |
| 17:38.06 | blckdove | no matter.. because Im gonna get the 02 anyway.. I am just wondering what to do with 01 hw after that =D |
| 17:38.17 | *** join/#openmoko Gybrush (n=Gybrush@f053153253.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 17:38.32 | mjr | yeah, me too, and I still have faith the 01 will become a usable phone for the wife |
| 17:38.50 | mjr | if not, well, 02's all around and think up some use for a tiny arm linux box |
| 17:40.17 | blckdove | already have n770 for that ;) |
| 17:41.06 | blckdove | 2 months is long time to wait .. heh |
| 17:41.09 | *** join/#openmoko peepsalot (n=peepsalo@cpe-67-9-161-48.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 17:44.23 | *** join/#openmoko Magon_ (n=Magon@213.155.227.229) |
| 17:44.24 | borg_ | http://www.refnum.com/osm/gmaps.html |
| 17:44.45 | *** join/#openmoko miip__ (n=miip@p54A54072.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:45.57 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x_ (n=alvar@212-41-116-162.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 17:47.54 | SpeedEvil | blckdove: 2 months - seems a little optimistic IMO. |
| 17:50.05 | *** join/#openmoko Tob1 (n=tobi@p5B0077CD.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:52.50 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=khmhm@53d8392d.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 17:53.54 | *** join/#openmoko bmk789 (n=bmk789@74-132-81-162.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 17:55.28 | *** join/#openmoko cktakahasi (n=cktakaha@189.70.16.210) |
| 17:56.06 | *** join/#openmoko laangsaam (i=a@gateway/tor/x-207578b29cfb2e24) |
| 17:57.30 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 18:00.44 | OJW | SpeedEvil: from a long history of optimists being proved wrong in engineering companies? |
| 18:00.49 | *** join/#openmoko Gwaihir (n=Gwaihir@ubuntu/member/gwaihir) |
| 18:04.45 | SpeedEvil | OJW: that - and yesterdays confirmation that they are still working on hardware with known bugs, and haven't yet committed to a new version. |
| 18:05.23 | SpeedEvil | OJW: A couple of months is a tight timeline from now if the new version was authorised today |
| 18:14.32 | *** join/#openmoko peepsalot (n=peepsalo@cpe-67-9-161-48.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 18:22.12 | *** join/#openmoko spydon (n=spydon@90-227-34-143-no42.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 18:23.33 | *** join/#openmoko xpgs (n=pradeep@221.134.248.176) |
| 18:24.53 | *** join/#openmoko simon_ (n=simon@w208.wist.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 18:29.43 | laangsaam | http://www.mgmaps.com/cache/MapTileCacher.perl |
| 18:30.32 | *** join/#openmoko mgregson (n=mgregson@CPE0012170e4053-CM0011e6c7aaa5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 18:35.56 | *** join/#openmoko AlexJTanner (n=alex@68-187-80-127.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com) |
| 18:39.37 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AE45D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:46.26 | *** join/#openmoko Mathiasdm (n=Mathias@d54C597B6.access.telenet.be) |
| 18:48.59 | *** join/#openmoko Gottox (n=Gottox@s01.de) |
| 18:50.03 | *** join/#openmoko pmw (n=pmw@66.25.22.51) |
| 18:59.09 | *** join/#openmoko rtp (n=rtp@2a01:5d8:58a6:7960:20e:cff:fedc:7859) |
| 19:01.57 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 19:09.39 | *** join/#openmoko doc|work (n=doc@gentoo/contributor/doc-007) |
| 19:20.38 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@124-171-202-52.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 19:23.59 | *** join/#openmoko st3v33 (n=st3v0@dslb-088-065-193-087.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 19:25.51 | *** join/#openmoko voi2 (n=void@M3616P016.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 19:31.27 | *** join/#openmoko orion_ (n=orion@124-171-172-218.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 19:31.32 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@213.155.227.229) |
| 19:32.58 | *** join/#openmoko heikkit (n=chatzill@c-67-188-122-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 19:34.51 | *** join/#openmoko yoyo (n=yoyo@nat.zegrze.maverick.com.pl) |
| 19:34.54 | yoyo | hi all |
| 19:36.35 | *** join/#openmoko doughnut42 (n=goden@32.170.118.174) |
| 19:37.24 | zash_ | has anyone done something with the schematics yet? |
| 19:38.43 | SpeedEvil | What schematics? |
| 19:38.54 | yoyo | Question: I while like to write sms menager. it while by correct if I while use a libgsmd-tool to get data from network to wrote a message menager? |
| 19:39.20 | zash_ | SpeedEvil: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_case_schematics |
| 19:39.34 | zash_ | a .zip with stuff |
| 19:39.36 | SpeedEvil | official ones? |
| 19:39.39 | SpeedEvil | 3d model? |
| 19:39.41 | SpeedEvil | nice |
| 19:40.16 | *** join/#openmoko lloyd_fedora (n=chatzill@86.99.56.85) |
| 19:40.25 | *** join/#openmoko bassinboy (n=yep@c-76-31-13-187.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 19:40.27 | lloyd_fedora | hello all |
| 19:40.49 | bassinboy | hi lloyd_fedora |
| 19:41.20 | lloyd_fedora | hey bassin |
| 19:42.12 | lloyd_fedora | does anyone know when the Neo Freerunner will be released ?? |
| 19:42.41 | bassinboy | which one is that? |
| 19:42.49 | SpeedEvil | lloyd_fedora: not really. |
| 19:42.52 | voi2 | 02 |
| 19:42.56 | SpeedEvil | lloyd_fedora: there are some guesses. |
| 19:43.11 | SpeedEvil | lloyd_fedora: March is about the absolute earliest it might be |
| 19:43.28 | lloyd_fedora | march .. thats not bad i can wait |
| 19:43.43 | SpeedEvil | I'd not be surprised at august. |
| 19:43.45 | bassinboy | is freerunner the one promised in oct 07? |
| 19:43.57 | Vegar | yes |
| 19:44.12 | balrog-kun | yeah.. |
| 19:44.25 | bassinboy | oh ok cool :) |
| 19:44.26 | lloyd_fedora | oct !! thats a long wait |
| 19:44.33 | SpeedEvil | Well - it wasn't called that then |
| 19:44.45 | *** join/#openmoko jpozlovsky (n=jindra@rb5cc115.net.upc.cz) |
| 19:45.05 | bassinboy | i was saving up for it but it was never released and i never saw any information from it (official information) |
| 19:47.06 | lloyd_fedora | ive got my cash in hand .. for almost a year now !!! n im still gonna wait !! |
| 19:48.02 | bassinboy | lloyd_fedora: yeah might as well wait to get the latest greatest |
| 19:48.11 | bassinboy | have the specs changed? |
| 19:48.22 | Vegar | yes, it's not quad band |
| 19:48.35 | lloyd_fedora | bassin .. yeah i think .. 500 mhz .. WiFi |
| 19:48.44 | lloyd_fedora | more mem |
| 19:48.48 | SpeedEvil | 400 |
| 19:48.49 | bassinboy | wow 500mhz is a good upgrade |
| 19:48.54 | SpeedEvil | 500 is overclocking |
| 19:49.07 | SpeedEvil | and may not work |
| 19:49.17 | maito | its a 400MHz with armv6 sets? |
| 19:49.22 | borg_ | i think the cpu is capable of 500 mhz, but the rest of the board is designed for 400mhz |
| 19:49.28 | SpeedEvil | Nope. |
| 19:49.37 | SpeedEvil | Datasheet says 400 is limit |
| 19:49.43 | maito | arm9? arm11? |
| 19:49.46 | borg_ | really? |
| 19:49.55 | *** join/#openmoko xpgs (n=pradeep@221.134.248.176) |
| 19:49.57 | borg_ | then someone wrote fud in the mailing list :) |
| 19:49.58 | lloyd_fedora | check the link |
| 19:50.09 | mjr | hmh, on the lists I got the impression that the 400 part got changed for a 500-capable part because of availability |
| 19:50.15 | borg_ | right |
| 19:50.16 | borg_ | exactly |
| 19:50.22 | mjr | (but yes, the rest of the board being limited to 400) |
| 19:50.22 | Vegar | same here, mjr |
| 19:50.23 | lloyd_fedora | yeah its 500 |
| 19:50.40 | SpeedEvil | mjr: maybe |
| 19:50.48 | mjr | doesn't really matter though |
| 19:51.00 | mjr | 400 for the package deal pretty clearly |
| 19:51.35 | lloyd_fedora | the specs r sweet .. more importantly its open |
| 19:51.52 | SpeedEvil | lloyd_fedora: not really in all areas. |
| 19:52.18 | SpeedEvil | lloyd_fedora: the video memory bus sucks, and there is no 3D accel that was hoped for |
| 19:52.38 | voi2 | in the freerunner? |
| 19:53.17 | voi2 | or in 1973? |
| 19:53.17 | lloyd_fedora | Speed : yeah i know some stuff is closed ... but most of it is open .. n me think the freerunner has 3D |
| 19:54.00 | borg_ | the glamo chip is capable of 3d, but there are no drivers for it |
| 19:54.08 | borg_ | and there wont be any in the next month |
| 19:54.29 | lloyd_fedora | borg_ : so any guesses on the release date ? |
| 19:54.39 | borg_ | probably never |
| 19:54.46 | SpeedEvil | borg_: there are no 3D drivers planned |
| 19:54.57 | borg_ | i know |
| 19:55.29 | borg_ | but the 2d acceleration is more important anyway |
| 19:55.51 | maito | like video? |
| 19:55.56 | SpeedEvil | I have some doubts as to if there is a point. |
| 19:56.00 | maito | btw |
| 19:56.09 | maito | I remember on this channel someone asked if a terminal was needed |
| 19:56.26 | maito | well, yesterday I got the chance to test nokia n810, the internet tablet that runs linux |
| 19:56.26 | SpeedEvil | (of the video accel chip - it's connected on a rather slow bus) |
| 19:56.51 | maito | you can open a terminal on n810, its a busybox and doesn't have much |
| 19:57.10 | maito | and I think for root you need to activate some dev mode or something |
| 19:57.23 | lloyd_fedora | i dont really care for the 3d .. just want the tri band .. wifi .. n gps ... ill use it a terminal to dial if i can get myhands on a freerunner !!! |
| 19:57.29 | zash_ | what do one open .asm & .prt in? |
| 19:57.41 | borg_ | zash_: Pro/E |
| 19:57.58 | El_Salvador | SpeedEvil> borg_: there are no 3D drivers planned |
| 19:58.01 | El_Salvador | no 3d drivers? |
| 19:58.05 | El_Salvador | why? |
| 19:58.06 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: no |
| 19:58.08 | SpeedEvil | el_: |
| 19:58.22 | SpeedEvil | Too much work |
| 19:58.26 | borg_ | El_Salvador: if someone whants to make them, nobody will stop him |
| 19:58.30 | borg_ | but it is a hell of a work |
| 19:58.33 | SpeedEvil | borg_: yes they will |
| 19:58.40 | SpeedEvil | borg_: no docs |
| 19:58.49 | El_Salvador | borg_: how? |
| 19:58.52 | El_Salvador | no docs |
| 19:59.02 | El_Salvador | isn't it nda? |
| 19:59.08 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 20:00.21 | balrog-kun | i think 3d drivers are planned, just not before the Feb release |
| 20:00.34 | jorgenpt | Hm, I haven't got my Neo right here to test, but can anyone answer this; will the phone run fine without a battery connected to USB? |
| 20:00.46 | SpeedEvil | no |
| 20:00.59 | balrog-kun | gta02 does, gta01 doesn't |
| 20:01.07 | jorgenpt | Is there any hack to fix it? |
| 20:01.09 | El_Salvador | balrog-kun: i hope |
| 20:01.36 | jorgenpt | I assume the battery will degrade if I leave the phone on 24/7 connected to USB, or? |
| 20:01.44 | SpeedEvil | nope |
| 20:01.53 | jorgenpt | Is that for me, SpeedEvil? :-) |
| 20:01.55 | SpeedEvil | Well - yes. |
| 20:02.15 | SpeedEvil | For best life, discharge it to 40% or so and put it in the fridge |
| 20:02.22 | lloyd_fedora | why are the gta 02 specs not the same as the freerunner doesnt FIC make both of em ?? |
| 20:02.37 | SpeedEvil | lloyd_fedora: htey are |
| 20:02.43 | kdean06 | Freerunner = GTA02 |
| 20:02.51 | jorgenpt | SpeedEvil: Huh? o.0 |
| 20:03.12 | SpeedEvil | jorgenpt: this will make the battery last longest. |
| 20:03.26 | SpeedEvil | jorgenpt: of course - ... |
| 20:03.40 | kdean06 | Running qtopia last night my phone "rested" into complete discharge even though it stayed connected to USB. It really sucked. |
| 20:03.48 | lloyd_fedora | kdean : the specs r not the same .. im on the site |
| 20:03.59 | jorgenpt | Aren't there any docs on the suspend-issue, btw? Definitive documentation on what the symptoms are, and possible diagnoses? |
| 20:04.03 | SpeedEvil | kdean06: they are. GTA02 specs are not quite accurate |
| 20:04.18 | SpeedEvil | orospakr: the UART isn't properly setup as it comes back IIRC |
| 20:04.25 | SpeedEvil | jor: |
| 20:04.45 | jorgenpt | Because I've heard that it doesn't wake properly when you manually wake, that it doesn't wake when a call comes in, that it drains about 2x the current it should in suspend and that the GSM modem doesn't work when it wakes from suspend. |
| 20:04.59 | mwester | jorgenpt: I suspect that once someone creates "definitive" documentation, the fix for the problem is but a minor programming exercise. |
| 20:05.06 | SpeedEvil | It wakes ewhen a call comes in. |
| 20:05.26 | SpeedEvil | the problem is probably on the serial port side, not the GSM |
| 20:08.03 | Vegar | jorgenpt: feel free to join #openmoko-no |
| 20:09.47 | SpeedEvil | Vegar: that's a bit negative - join #openmoko-yes! |
| 20:10.28 | jorgenpt | mwester: Do you know if FIC is working on the problem - or is it entirely up to the community? |
| 20:10.34 | zash_ | no one there :( |
| 20:10.50 | SpeedEvil | or/: cesarb is working on clock speed adjust |
| 20:10.52 | *** join/#openmoko ericthefish (n=ivan@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 20:10.59 | SpeedEvil | jorgenpt: it's a closely related issue. |
| 20:11.08 | *** join/#openmoko maito (n=maito@a88-115-217-86.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 20:11.27 | jorgenpt | clock speed of the SoC? |
| 20:11.29 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 20:11.30 | zash_ | no #openmoko-se |
| 20:11.44 | *** join/#openmoko rtp (n=rtp@2a01:5d8:58a6:7960:20e:cff:fedc:7859) |
| 20:11.55 | jorgenpt | SpeedEvil: Oh, okay. Timing issues with the serial port? |
| 20:12.10 | SpeedEvil | jorgenpt: seems so |
| 20:12.17 | jorgenpt | Mkay. |
| 20:15.21 | Vegar | they still haven't fixed that? |
| 20:19.49 | lloyd_fedora | later all |
| 20:21.42 | *** join/#openmoko zedstar (n=john@82-44-200-69.cable.ubr08.haye.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 20:21.57 | *** join/#openmoko HellDragon (n=Nocebo@unaffiliated/helldragon) |
| 20:22.24 | *** part/#openmoko doughnut42 (n=goden@32.170.118.174) |
| 20:24.09 | *** join/#openmoko [PI]Sami (n=sami@a9b.pirttimaki.jyu.fi) |
| 20:37.18 | *** join/#openmoko aloril (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 20:40.34 | *** join/#openmoko coptix (n=OptimusP@f048035033.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 20:47.21 | *** join/#openmoko shred2008 (n=shred200@p54918289.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 20:47.28 | *** join/#openmoko shred2008 (n=shred200@p54918289.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 20:47.36 | *** join/#openmoko folken (i=folken@sonne.alt-f4.ch) |
| 20:56.57 | *** join/#openmoko k-s (n=gustavo@189.70.130.103) |
| 20:58.49 | *** join/#openmoko Tobi (n=tobi@p5B007BB0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:00.52 | *** join/#openmoko jannu__ (n=jannu@hoas-fe3cdd00-15.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 21:01.26 | *** join/#openmoko TobiX (i=tobias@zoidberg.org) |
| 21:04.20 | *** join/#openmoko twistx_ (n=no@64.30.190.30) |
| 21:07.58 | *** join/#openmoko pH5 (n=ph5@e178253207.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 21:09.03 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 21:09.20 | *** part/#openmoko coptix (n=OptimusP@f048035033.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 21:12.32 | *** join/#openmoko Marcel_M (n=Marcel_M@86.59.65.236) |
| 21:13.48 | *** join/#openmoko baird (n=cbaird@brushtail.apana.org.au) |
| 21:15.59 | *** join/#openmoko tg (i=tg@x-net.hu) |
| 21:16.48 | grummel | http://tmp.bluntobject.org/img/mac_vs_pc.jpg |
| 21:16.59 | grummel | ops wrong channel sorry |
| 21:20.07 | *** join/#openmoko peje (n=peje@110-52.76-83.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 21:21.16 | *** join/#openmoko thomasg (n=thomasg@p57AFF5D3.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:22.51 | peje | need help to get openmoko running on the sd of my a780, getting kernel panic, but no idea whhy |
| 21:23.51 | SpeedEvil | what's the last line? |
| 21:24.53 | peje | unknown block (0,0) the sd is formated with 2p ext2 |
| 21:25.24 | SpeedEvil | unknown block device? |
| 21:25.28 | SpeedEvil | or unknown block? |
| 21:25.36 | peje | device |
| 21:26.38 | SpeedEvil | That probably means you don't have appropriate drives for the SD |
| 21:26.45 | SpeedEvil | drivers. |
| 21:26.48 | *** join/#openmoko Cap_J_L_Picard (n=ewanm89@unaffiliated/ewanm89) |
| 21:26.57 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_ (n=ewanm89@unaffiliated/ewanm89) |
| 21:28.00 | *** join/#openmoko Cap_J_L_Picard (n=ewanm89@unaffiliated/ewanm89) |
| 21:28.05 | peje | sandisk shut be known not? or should I add modules? |
| 21:29.41 | peje | actually: the error is: kernel panic -not syncing VFS unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(0,0) |
| 21:29.49 | *** join/#openmoko Cap_J_L_Picard (n=ewanm89@unaffiliated/ewanm89) |
| 21:31.09 | *** join/#openmoko Cap_J_L_Picard (n=ewanm89@unaffiliated/ewanm89) |
| 21:31.41 | SpeedEvil | yes - that typically means that you have not got a configured boot device |
| 21:32.00 | SpeedEvil | You need to A) build all of your modules that you need into the kernel. |
| 21:32.35 | SpeedEvil | B) put your setup code in an initrd, which gets loaded during the boot process. This then loads modules and sets things up. |
| 21:33.22 | *** join/#openmoko xpgs (n=pradeep@221.134.248.176) |
| 21:34.20 | peje | thanks, I'll look at these two variants... |
| 21:40.14 | peje | but why is it not possible to pass ther argument of root-device like he kernel mounts the rootfs (defined at compile time or by root= parameter on kernel command line); |
| 21:40.39 | *** join/#openmoko hansmbakker (n=hansmbak@hansbakker.student.utwente.nl) |
| 21:40.42 | peje | and which is the correct dev for mmc |
| 21:41.11 | balrog-kun | yes, it is possible |
| 21:42.02 | balrog-kun | mmcblk1p0 or similar is likely the device name |
| 21:42.19 | peje | I just try, thanks |
| 21:42.38 | balrog-kun | obviously your kernel needs to have the mmc driver in it |
| 21:43.08 | cesarb | Other than the "this block gets unstable below 20MHz", I failed to find any reason why the USB device block would get unstable after a frequency transition |
| 21:43.20 | cesarb | Perhaps it gets confused by the few moments of 0MHz clock |
| 21:44.03 | balrog-kun | can you suspend it for this moment like you did with other blocks? |
| 21:44.18 | peje | I just got the stuff from the a780 downloads |
| 21:44.26 | *** join/#openmoko tonyg (n=tonyg@82.152.210.80) |
| 21:45.48 | cesarb | balrog-kun: it's a bit harder with USB, since it's the host which control these things. Any attempt at quiescing it would probably end up causing a disconnect/reconnect cycle visible to the host, which would be annoying. |
| 21:47.19 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: It's a fractional synth - changing either n or m - but not both may do other things. |
| 21:47.42 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: ? |
| 21:48.32 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: It's a fractional n synth - changing either n or m - but not both may do other things. |
| 21:49.01 | SpeedEvil | Right - at the end of it - you have a VCO - this generates a frequency from a voltage |
| 21:49.40 | SpeedEvil | and this goes from 20-350Mhz or so. |
| 21:50.30 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: if it's the MPLL changing code, it sets all the parameters at once (in a single register write) |
| 21:50.53 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: I mean - pick a frequency to change only one parameter of the divisor |
| 21:51.00 | SpeedEvil | the PLL may lock faster |
| 21:51.21 | *** join/#openmoko k-s (n=gustavo@189.70.130.103) |
| 21:51.22 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: it won't, the hardware generates a fixed delay (according to the spec) |
| 21:51.39 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: it doesn't actually wait for it to lock... it just waits a fixed time |
| 21:51.40 | SpeedEvil | Or rather - the PLL may lock with fewer frequency transients |
| 21:52.18 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: there's a graph in the spec showing the output goes to 0MHz during the lock time, so there's also only a single 0Hz transient |
| 21:53.17 | *** join/#openmoko cbrake_a1ay (n=cbrake@oh-69-34-21-229.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 21:57.08 | SpeedEvil | I wonder if it's really unstable at 12MHz |
| 21:57.17 | SpeedEvil | PCLK |
| 21:59.11 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: don't know, I didn't test the real hardware so far down (I only went as far as half the top speed so far) |
| 21:59.19 | *** part/#openmoko hansmbakker (n=hansmbak@hansbakker.student.utwente.nl) |
| 22:02.03 | SpeedEvil | I mean - if the clock is turned off from the output of the PLL - presumably to avoid transients - can you connect it to 12Mhz in - instead. |
| 22:02.21 | SpeedEvil | So keeping PCLK at 12Mhz not 0. Which admittedly isn't in spec, but... |
| 22:03.32 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej_ (n=alex@cpc1-acto9-0-0-cust931.brnt.cable.ntl.com) |
| 22:03.50 | cesarb | I see where you are trying to get at... If I switch to SLOW, there won't be a PLL transient, it would jump cleanly to 12MHz |
| 22:04.13 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 22:04.18 | rwhitby | So, do we move MokoMakefile to bitbake 1.8.10 now? |
| 22:04.30 | SpeedEvil | It's just a pity that 12Mhz is out of spec for the USB block |
| 22:04.34 | cesarb | The trouble is that, since I don't have all drivers ready, I'm wary of going so far down... In particular, the framebuffer might not like it that much |
| 22:04.48 | SpeedEvil | It won't. |
| 22:04.54 | SpeedEvil | IIRC you can do QVGA in spec |
| 22:05.09 | SpeedEvil | or VGA@8 bit |
| 22:05.15 | SpeedEvil | but I diddn't look very hard at it |
| 22:05.46 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: I'd guess that either 12MHz is too low for the speed of USB transfers, or that the FSM on the USB block gets confused if things go too fast on one side compared to the other |
| 22:05.47 | mwester | rwhitby: not until someone tests to see if it still requires that bizzare bzr python module that isn't available for some of the really weird and unusual distros -- like Fedora ;) |
| 22:06.23 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: the USB clock stuff is driven by the USB PLL though, which has a seperate feed to the 12Mhz clock |
| 22:06.57 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: but at least part of the block is driven by the main clock (the part which interfaces with the CPU and the rest of the stuff) |
| 22:07.00 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: I _think_ that the lack of a proper clock might only be important (on the PCLK side) if you are takking to it |
| 22:07.17 | SpeedEvil | that is however conjecture. |
| 22:07.29 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: might be that too, I was talking to it via USB when I tested (I was using ssh!) |
| 22:08.15 | SpeedEvil | It'd be so nice if you could get a response from samsung on this. |
| 22:08.44 | *** join/#openmoko baird (n=cbaird@brushtail.apana.org.au) |
| 22:12.16 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: if the OM people get interested on the code I'm doing, and think it's important, they might... after all the hundreds of other things they already have to check :P |
| 22:12.23 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: (i.e. not much of a chance) |
| 22:13.37 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@124-171-136-1.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 22:15.00 | cesarb | the kernel boots so fast, and then the userspace takes its sweet time to come up... |
| 22:15.01 | *** join/#openmoko josch (n=josch@host132.natpool.mwn.de) |
| 22:17.51 | *** join/#openmoko AVee_ (n=AVee@edsger.d6.nl) |
| 22:18.31 | balrog-kun | there's always the round way to get your code into OM through mainline |
| 22:19.05 | mickeyl | mmh |
| 22:19.47 | zash_ | nice |
| 22:19.56 | cesarb | balrog-kun: no chance, it takes too much (I should know - I have code on mainline) |
| 22:20.07 | cesarb | s/too much/too much time/ |
| 22:20.44 | CM | mickeyl: Planning to be up all night? |
| 22:20.46 | *** join/#openmoko stefan_schmidt (n=stefan@datenfreihafen.org) |
| 22:20.48 | CM | ;) |
| 22:20.50 | cesarb | GREAT, this code works! now the timing doesn't get off when changing the cpu frequency |
| 22:20.59 | balrog-kun | it really depends, sometimes they jump on your code very quickly |
| 22:21.17 | CM | cesarb: Cool, nice work :) |
| 22:21.17 | mickeyl | CM: nah, that's decaf of course. |
| 22:21.21 | mickeyl | yo stefan |
| 22:21.33 | mickeyl | rwhitby: (mokomakefile), yes, please update to 1.8.10 |
| 22:21.34 | cesarb | CM: that's only the first step |
| 22:21.53 | CM | Well, any progress is good progress |
| 22:21.55 | stefan_schmidt | hi mickeyl |
| 22:21.56 | mickeyl | cesarb: pretty cool. can't wait to see actual lifetime improvements |
| 22:21.57 | cesarb | CM: look at the list at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:CesarB/cpufreq , half of the drivers are still missing their notifiers |
| 22:22.10 | stefan_schmidt | hmm, does bitbake 1.8.10 contains all the stuff we need for AUTOREV or still a patch needed? |
| 22:22.21 | CM | cesarb: I'll read now :) |
| 22:22.24 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: after lowering the frequency to 135000, I plugged the USB, and it works |
| 22:22.40 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: it looks like it only gets confused when you tick it off in the middle of an operation |
| 22:22.47 | CIA-15 | openmoko: 03rwhitby * r176 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Updated to bitbake 1.8.10 |
| 22:22.48 | rwhitby | mickeyl: done |
| 22:22.59 | mickeyl | rwhitby: thanks |
| 22:23.14 | mickeyl | stefan_schmidt: it should contain everything needed. could you run a test? |
| 22:23.27 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: Not before tomorrow evening |
| 22:23.41 | mickeyl | sounds good |
| 22:23.42 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: But I'll poke Shoragan to update the debian package |
| 22:23.48 | mickeyl | ah right |
| 22:24.19 | mickeyl | OT: anyone know whether channel forwarders are user installable on #freenet? |
| 22:24.35 | mickeyl | s/#freenet//freenode |
| 22:25.23 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: you were right that the LCM does run "fine" in a wide range of frequencies... just tried 101250 for an EVEN WORSE flicker |
| 22:27.11 | cesarb | wow, the flicker at 12000 is... psychadelic (sp?) |
| 22:27.13 | *** join/#openmoko ahbritto (n=guest@adsl-69-104-2-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 22:27.18 | cesarb | and it's SLOW |
| 22:27.28 | cesarb | (not as in SLOW mode, slow as in not fast) |
| 22:27.42 | mickeyl | cesarb: perhaps we can fix that by altering timings? |
| 22:27.45 | mickeyl | then again |
| 22:27.52 | mickeyl | we probably really don't need the LCM @ 12MHz |
| 22:28.28 | cesarb | mickeyl: the code I have to change the timings for the framebuffer is for 2.6.24.x |
| 22:28.37 | mickeyl | excellent. |
| 22:28.42 | cesarb | mickeyl: the framebuffer driver for 2.6.22.5 is too different, I ommited that part |
| 22:28.54 | mickeyl | i hope that gta01 switches to .24 at some point of time |
| 22:28.57 | cesarb | mickeyl: which means I have to suffer a very strange color-shifting flicker |
| 22:29.01 | mickeyl | will continue pestering the system guys |
| 22:29.29 | cesarb | and this thing is too SLOW! I cannot find the lines I want in the dmesg scrollback due to the irritant adc log spam |
| 22:30.19 | jorgenpt | What web browsers are available for the Neo? |
| 22:31.08 | kdean06 | openmoko-browser. :) |
| 22:31.09 | balrog-kun | all linux web brosers basically |
| 22:31.19 | jorgenpt | Well, which ones have been ported / tested? :-) |
| 22:31.30 | kdean06 | I'm sure you could compile Epiphany or whatever to run on it, but it probably wouldn't be the best option. |
| 22:31.38 | jorgenpt | And which ones do you recommend =) |
| 22:31.40 | cesarb | phew, after s l o w l y typing the correct command, managed to get back to flickerless full-speed 266000 |
| 22:31.47 | balrog-kun | there's even an Opera build for ARM afaik |
| 22:33.28 | kdean06 | openmoko-browser is a no-frills brower. :P jorgenpt -> http://www.monochromementality.com/index.php/photos/album/13/photo/83.html |
| 22:34.48 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE001217b19226-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 22:35.40 | *** join/#openmoko C7__ (n=C7@54-21.76-83.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 22:39.54 | cesarb | ok, did a writeup on this latest test at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:CesarB/cpufreq |
| 22:39.56 | *** join/#openmoko spydon (n=spydon@90-227-34-143-no42.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 22:42.48 | *** join/#openmoko rtp (n=rtp@2a01:5d8:58a6:7960:20e:cff:fedc:7859) |
| 22:43.34 | mickeyl | cool stuff |
| 22:44.00 | *** join/#openmoko thewelsh1 (n=user@86.158.227.175) |
| 22:44.04 | mickeyl | cesarb: i guess most of that stuff will work on the s3c2442 as well? |
| 22:44.19 | thewelsh1 | hi could I bug someone for a little help |
| 22:44.30 | thewelsh1 | my neo just arrived |
| 22:44.48 | thewelsh1 | and I put the latest dev image listed in the openmoko flasher |
| 22:44.54 | thewelsh1 | but it doesnt have the UI i expected? |
| 22:45.05 | thewelsh1 | also it wont recognise my virgin sim card |
| 22:45.09 | thewelsh1 | any suggestions? |
| 22:45.18 | cesarb | mickeyl: the notifiers should work; from what I've seen so far, about half the hardware is common (things like serial/timer are; framebuffer and others aren't) |
| 22:46.12 | cesarb | mickeyl: the cpufreq driver (the core part which actually changes the frequencies) will not work since it's hardcoded for the S3C2410A (yes, A, not even the one without the A); adding a table of frequencies for the different CPU and changing the code to use it should be enough |
| 22:46.28 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: from userspace, you can tweak it using setfb |
| 22:47.01 | cesarb | mickeyl: (the table of frequencies was mostly copied from the table of possible PLL settings on the datasheet, which is why it's so specific) |
| 22:47.09 | mickeyl | right |
| 22:49.07 | SpeedEvil | I have doubts if it means other than 'we tested these values'. |
| 22:50.28 | cesarb | mickeyl: I would expect the porting work to be quite small after the gta01 cpufreq work is complete (it would mostly be writing the notifiers for the new gta02 drivers and adding a new frequency table); however, the code is only half-finished, and of that only half has been tested (VERY lightly tested) |
| 22:51.13 | *** join/#openmoko mzb (n=ubernut@ppp108-88.static.internode.on.net) |
| 22:51.28 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: or more like 'we tested these values and they worked reliably; we might have tested others which didn't work so well, but we aren't telling' |
| 22:51.31 | maito | what would happen if wrong frequensies were used? |
| 22:51.52 | cesarb | maito: nasal demons |
| 22:51.54 | SpeedEvil | maito: worst case is instability |
| 22:52.01 | SpeedEvil | It's not going to catch fire |
| 22:52.22 | cesarb | maito: (http://catb.org/jargon/html/N/nasal-demons.html for the reference) |
| 22:52.22 | maito | hehe, of course not. is it going to limit its life? |
| 22:52.49 | cesarb | maito: no, unless the instability does (for instance by making you do something very wrong) |
| 22:53.06 | SpeedEvil | 'You must kiiiiiilll!' |
| 22:53.58 | maito | cesarb: Ive encountered such :p |
| 22:54.22 | maito | basically just the cpu to count wrong |
| 23:11.47 | *** part/#openmoko stefan_schmidt (n=stefan@datenfreihafen.org) |
| 23:18.15 | *** join/#openmoko miip (n=miip@p54A56923.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 23:24.11 | *** join/#openmoko bmk789 (n=bmk789@74-132-81-162.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 23:26.28 | *** join/#openmoko MMN-o (n=mmn@barjack.com) |
| 23:42.32 | *** join/#openmoko Gres (n=malane@shrv-c-124.resnet.purdue.edu) |
| 23:48.46 | *** join/#openmoko Q_Continuum (n=Q@75-168-106-125.mpls.qwest.net) |
| 23:55.15 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@Z6740.z.pppool.de) |
| 23:55.16 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
