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| 00:57.23 | borg_ | is there a free software tool with which i can open the neo cad/schematics files? |
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| 05:35.13 | altereog | Centuarium is the greek key word for a location appropriate for a sanctuary |
| 05:36.30 | dexi | : O |
| 05:37.44 | altereog | logan 5, are you here? |
| 05:38.24 | altereog | jessica 6 ? |
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| 12:18.47 | voi1 | Hi, I flashed my Openmoko with the official snapshot (kernel and rootfs); i wanted to add the unofficial feeds of "ScaredyCat", but if I want to ipkg upgrade, it upgrades the kernel too and the neo (as in wiki explained) crashes on boot. Am I able to be avoiding upgrading the other programs on the ScaredyCat-Feed without upgrading the kernel? |
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| 12:26.39 | `pwgen` | hi |
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| 14:19.19 | kyz | hi |
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| 16:09.52 | KrisAbsinthe | good morning |
| 16:10.05 | voi1 | morning |
| 16:10.12 | dcordes_ | good evening |
| 16:10.25 | zedstar | afternoon :) |
| 16:10.38 | dcordes_ | somebody got night left? |
| 16:10.46 | mbuf | dcordes_, yes |
| 16:10.53 | zedstar | lol |
| 16:12.49 | voi1 | a question: I flashed into my neo the official snapshot of Openmoko. After this I wanted to add the "ScaredyCat"-Repo-Feed to ipkg. If i upgrade openmoko, ipkg wants to upgrade kernel-modules too, and so it crashes on boot (as explained in wiki). Am I able to upgrade all but the kernel-modules? |
| 16:13.45 | KrisAbsinthe | Well if you cant update the modules updating the kernel is probably a bad idea |
| 16:14.33 | KrisAbsinthe | is there a specific feature you are trying to get working, or just latest OM |
| 16:14.44 | voi1 | Yes, but if I write "ipkg upgrade", it upgrades the kernel too automatically. |
| 16:15.00 | voi1 | the latest OM would be nice. (scrummvm too) |
| 16:15.05 | voi1 | *scummvm |
| 16:16.00 | KrisAbsinthe | I usually go with either the latest OM or angstrom and modify them to my liking |
| 16:16.33 | voi1 | Do you compile the latest source-code yourself? or where do you get the images? |
| 16:17.20 | KrisAbsinthe | just a second ill send link |
| 16:17.45 | KrisAbsinthe | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Repositories |
| 16:17.55 | KrisAbsinthe | this is where they are all listed |
| 16:18.04 | KrisAbsinthe | im using 2007.11 |
| 16:18.38 | KrisAbsinthe | with matchbox-desktop from angstrom |
| 16:18.39 | voi1 | hm.. k, and did you add other feeds too? or only the default-feeds? |
| 16:18.47 | voi1 | hm, k |
| 16:19.04 | KrisAbsinthe | angstrom's repos are nice |
| 16:19.43 | KrisAbsinthe | i tried scaredycat once, didnt care for the stability |
| 16:20.03 | voi1 | and angrstrom's is stable? |
| 16:21.09 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@M849d.m.pppool.de) |
| 16:21.18 | KrisAbsinthe | more than scaredycat , in my opinion, but you have to use moko as a base unless you want to try and get *everything* working manually |
| 16:22.03 | voi1 | okay. |
| 16:22.20 | KrisAbsinthe | OM kernels and modules are good, but i dont care for the GUI. So I use a desktop environment |
| 16:22.52 | *** part/#openmoko LarstiQ (n=larstiq@cust.7.157.adsl.cistron.nl) |
| 16:23.07 | voi1 | thanks a lot. i'll try some of your hints. |
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| 16:24.10 | KrisAbsinthe | NP, if you have any feature you want working let me know, I bought the Neo the day it went on sale and have been having fun ever since |
| 16:25.42 | voi1 | thx, i'll fall back to you, if the time comes :-) |
| 16:31.13 | mbuf | i think they should have one for community developer requirements, http://openmoko.com/careers-index.html :) |
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| 16:47.55 | bbb8 | hey |
| 16:48.33 | KrisAbsinthe | hello |
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| 16:51.28 | bbb8 | hows OM going? :) |
| 16:52.24 | KrisAbsinthe | Good, still some issues, some easily solved some not so easy |
| 16:52.48 | bbb8 | good, hows the powermanagement issues going? |
| 16:53.23 | KrisAbsinthe | Still needs work, but i can get 5+ hours away from power |
| 16:54.18 | bbb8 | is that on standby |
| 16:54.20 | bbb8 | ? |
| 16:54.53 | mbuf | KrisAbsinthe, does freerunner have self-powered charging? |
| 16:55.01 | KrisAbsinthe | yeah, talk time i dont know, cause im stuck in a GSM 850 area |
| 16:55.17 | Vegar | self-powered charging? |
| 16:55.23 | KrisAbsinthe | I know very little about 'FreeRunner' |
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| 16:55.43 | mbuf | Vegar, using external power chargers, compared to USB bus-powered |
| 16:55.49 | bbb8 | oh, u have one of the 850 devices with u? or you had to return it to them? |
| 16:56.33 | mickeyl | evening |
| 16:56.36 | KrisAbsinthe | I still have it. Im involved in a test, they will be sending me a modified GTA01 to test with 850, |
| 16:56.50 | bbb8 | mbuf, like taking out the battery 'n chargin in external chargers? |
| 16:57.24 | bbb8 | o ok, i thought they sent out the devices some time ago |
| 16:57.47 | bbb8 | good evening micheyl |
| 16:57.52 | PP|Spydon | isn't the battery exactly the same as many nokia batteries? |
| 16:58.00 | mbuf | bbb8, that can be done even now; i meant without taking out the batteries, using some external power source |
| 16:58.08 | bbb8 | well not exactly the same |
| 16:58.18 | KrisAbsinthe | Oh i bought one many months ago, if you live in a small city or bigger you should be ok |
| 16:58.22 | bbb8 | the neo battery has more capacity from the BL-5C |
| 16:58.29 | PP|Spydon | I see |
| 16:58.40 | KrisAbsinthe | I use my nokia battery as a backup |
| 16:59.24 | PP|Spydon | how nice, my father used to work at nokia so we have tons of those batteries :P |
| 16:59.25 | bbb8 | cool |
| 16:59.33 | bbb8 | haha great! |
| 16:59.38 | PP|Spydon | yeah ^^ |
| 16:59.55 | bbb8 | but remember quality will not be as good :p |
| 16:59.57 | bbb8 | brb |
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| 17:01.43 | PP|Spydon | yeah but it's always good to have a backup incase you run out of battery |
| 17:02.31 | KrisAbsinthe | Im thinking of adding solar panels to the back of mine, cost is about $20 total |
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| 17:14.31 | bbb8 | solar panels would be awesome |
| 17:14.41 | bbb8 | what's the thickness? |
| 17:15.30 | cesarb | solar panels do nothing when the phone is on your pocket |
| 17:15.42 | bbb8 | no not on your pocket |
| 17:16.17 | bbb8 | for example if in ur office u got some some sunlight then u'll put it there :) |
| 17:16.47 | bbb8 | how long would it take to charge fully from those small panels? |
| 17:18.33 | KrisAbsinthe | depends on the amps used, I will do the calculations and let you know. |
| 17:18.59 | bbb8 | sure, post it on the community mailing list |
| 17:19.12 | Vegar | bbb8: you'd have to place it outside the window |
| 17:19.17 | KrisAbsinthe | sure, |
| 17:19.17 | Vegar | or have the window open |
| 17:19.50 | bbb8 | why? |
| 17:20.11 | KrisAbsinthe | Actually its not just "Solar" it has to do with light particles reacting with a crystal based chemical inside the solar panel |
| 17:20.33 | bbb8 | true, |
| 17:20.39 | bbb8 | the photons |
| 17:20.42 | KrisAbsinthe | right |
| 17:20.51 | bbb8 | but why would the window closed be a problem, |
| 17:21.05 | cesarb | KrisAbsinthe: but the energy output you get from office-style fluorescent lighting is not as much as you'd get from a huge nuclear furnace |
| 17:21.12 | bbb8 | unless the window is painted black |
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| 17:21.32 | Vegar | bbb8: for the same reason that you don't get a tan through the window |
| 17:21.56 | bbb8 | well i never really tried that vegar :p |
| 17:22.15 | KrisAbsinthe | i agree with that, but at the least it would slow the discharging under poor lighting |
| 17:22.33 | bbb8 | so how much of the radiations get reflected from the window? |
| 17:22.37 | cesarb | Vegar: actually, the reason you don't get a tan is that the glass is blocking a lot of the UV |
| 17:22.47 | cesarb | Vegar: unless it's a special UV-transparent glass |
| 17:24.18 | bbb8 | oh ok |
| 17:24.56 | KrisAbsinthe | this history channel thing is great |
| 17:25.33 | kdean06 | I just plug in my USB cable at work. :) |
| 17:25.46 | KrisAbsinthe | i cant admin is a d*ck |
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| 17:25.52 | kdean06 | Oh. |
| 17:26.31 | bbb8 | hmm |
| 17:26.36 | Vegar | bbb8: I might be wrong |
| 17:26.58 | voi1 | Would the solar panel connected to phone via usb or directly? |
| 17:27.24 | KrisAbsinthe | i want to layer the back of the phone with the panels |
| 17:27.44 | bbb8 | well i think tanning is actually from the UV like u said, but i don't know how much it affects in the charging from solar panels |
| 17:28.16 | bbb8 | because as long as there's light, like plants u know |
| 17:28.29 | bbb8 | the chlorophyl |
| 17:28.54 | bbb8 | u can have them inside the house with the window closed. |
| 17:29.21 | KrisAbsinthe | as long as there is some photons bouncing around to use |
| 17:29.42 | bbb8 | i think so... |
| 17:30.00 | bbb8 | not sure tho...... |
| 17:30.05 | KrisAbsinthe | ive done some experiments with solar energy |
| 17:31.00 | voi1 | is photosynthese the same physical thing as the photovoltaic technology? |
| 17:31.19 | bbb8 | not exactly, but i think it's both the photons doing the function there.. |
| 17:31.33 | bbb8 | what do u think KrisAbsinthe? |
| 17:32.03 | SpeedEvil | The reason office lighting doesn't produce power is illumination levels. |
| 17:32.15 | SpeedEvil | It's some 100th of direct sunlight |
| 17:32.25 | voi1 | the same thing would be awesome, then we could reduce co2 and produce oxygen. |
| 17:32.26 | KrisAbsinthe | The mechanism is different but the principle is the same |
| 17:32.31 | voi1 | ;-) |
| 17:32.45 | bbb8 | yea but does it matter if ur next to a closed window or open SpeedEvil? |
| 17:32.48 | KrisAbsinthe | we could use fresk O2 |
| 17:32.52 | KrisAbsinthe | *fresh |
| 17:33.23 | bbb8 | yea and save the world eh? |
| 17:33.36 | SpeedEvil | A 12W CFL produces around 3W of light - about 1/333 of the energy in a square meter of sunlight - equivalent to about a 6cm square window |
| 17:33.36 | voi1 | like Al Gore |
| 17:34.14 | SpeedEvil | Closed or open window with sunlight shining through has relatively little effect - as long as it's not got solar reflective film in |
| 17:34.16 | bbb8 | how about those UV lights? :D |
| 17:34.30 | SpeedEvil | that cuts visible light by a factor of several. |
| 17:34.59 | bbb8 | yea, like the sunglasses? |
| 17:35.05 | KrisAbsinthe | Ok, im pretty sure that if you had a solar panel in direct sunlight and monitored the voltage and then covered it with a glass panel that it would do very little, as always i reserve the right to be wrong ;) |
| 17:35.14 | SpeedEvil | Consider the input power. To get a light level equivalent to full sunlight, you need 2000W per square meter of lights. |
| 17:35.27 | SpeedEvil | And that's very efficient lights |
| 17:36.09 | KrisAbsinthe | I think this may require a Wiki when i start this, its set in stone now lol |
| 17:36.11 | SpeedEvil | KrisAbsinthe: straight glass has little effect - treated glass - to reflect sunlight as much skyscrapers are covered with - is a different story |
| 17:36.29 | SpeedEvil | google alt.solar.photovoltaic faq |
| 17:36.33 | KrisAbsinthe | Totally agree with that |
| 17:37.08 | bbb8 | :) |
| 17:37.52 | bbb8 | how about the uv lights speedevil? |
| 17:38.02 | SpeedEvil | What about UV lights? |
| 17:38.02 | bbb8 | 'n KrisAbsinthe? |
| 17:38.24 | bbb8 | would they be any different from normal room lights? |
| 17:38.58 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 17:39.19 | bbb8 | altho they're at a higher frequency? |
| 17:39.24 | SpeedEvil | They are marginally more efficient in some cases (germicidal tubes) but at that wavelength common solar cells stop working |
| 17:39.38 | bbb8 | oh ok |
| 17:39.50 | SpeedEvil | Not to mention that they cause serious skin cancer and almost instant severe sunburn |
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| 17:40.22 | SpeedEvil | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_radiation shows (third or so graphic down?) what light is emitted byu the sun, and hits |
| 17:40.45 | ewon | morning |
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| 17:42.23 | KrisAbsinthe | we should develop a cell that works with IR |
| 17:42.36 | ewon | IR is line of sight |
| 17:42.50 | cesarb | ewon: they are talking about solar cells |
| 17:42.53 | ewon | oh |
| 17:42.56 | ewon | oops :) |
| 17:43.06 | KrisAbsinthe | hehe |
| 17:43.06 | cesarb | ewon: lurk more ;-) |
| 17:43.26 | ewon | hey, I'm king lurker, I average around one line a week |
| 17:44.12 | KrisAbsinthe | anyway so yes, there will be a WiKi |
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| 17:45.16 | SpeedEvil | KrisAbsinthe: standard cells do. |
| 17:45.18 | SpeedEvil | KrisAbsinthe: google. |
| 17:45.49 | KrisAbsinthe | I didnt know that. I love learning |
| 17:47.06 | KrisAbsinthe | SpeedEvil: do you happen to know if there are solder points that would be good for this on the GTA01 |
| 17:47.16 | SpeedEvil | For what? |
| 17:47.29 | KrisAbsinthe | adding solar cells |
| 17:47.35 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 17:48.00 | SpeedEvil | It's probably easiest to make a replacement back with a shim sticking between the battery socket and the battery |
| 17:48.32 | KrisAbsinthe | thats what i thought, just didnt know if there would be a better place for this. Thank you |
| 17:48.48 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: wouldn't adding things in parallel to the battery be evil? It's a lithium one, after all... |
| 17:48.55 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 17:49.02 | SpeedEvil | Only if you do it wrong. |
| 17:49.56 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: but by making it too easy to put things there, you are making certain per Murphy's someone will do it wrong |
| 17:50.14 | KrisAbsinthe | those people should buy a multimeter |
| 17:51.38 | SpeedEvil | There is no simple way in GTA01 to get to vbattery |
| 17:51.41 | SpeedEvil | Or vusb |
| 17:52.44 | KrisAbsinthe | the + and - is listed on the battery though |
| 17:53.02 | SpeedEvil | I mean other than the battery. |
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| 17:53.16 | SpeedEvil | You do not simply connect a solar cell across the battery unless you want it to explode |
| 17:53.23 | SpeedEvil | you need a battery manager chip |
| 17:54.03 | KrisAbsinthe | so your saying build a USB solar panel |
| 17:54.21 | SpeedEvil | http://youtube.com/watch?v=4OsBc8RqSKU |
| 17:54.35 | SpeedEvil | Now imagine that happening 6" from your genitals. |
| 17:54.48 | SpeedEvil | KrisAbsinthe: or buy one. |
| 17:55.02 | KrisAbsinthe | that was the best video i have ever seen |
| 17:55.21 | KrisAbsinthe | eh, i like building stuff |
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| 17:56.11 | bbb8_ | back |
| 17:56.14 | SpeedEvil | http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.4813 for existing USB solar panels |
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| 18:02.06 | cesarb | Great, for some reason I don't know yet, "echo userspace > scaling_governor" is acting as if it was a NOP :( |
| 18:02.23 | cesarb | That makes it a bit harder for me to test... :( |
| 18:02.57 | SpeedEvil | \n probs/? |
| 18:04.21 | bbb8__ | . |
| 18:04.27 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: nope, echo -n also didn't work :( |
| 18:05.23 | cesarb | And it is on scaling_available_governors, so it's not that it didn't get loaded (I compiled it as built-in, in fact) |
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| 18:07.02 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1189 has been created by audriusa(AT)bluewin.ch |
| 18:07.02 | cdbot2 | * * Click on the program category line in the Application manager does not always open the category list. |
| 18:07.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1189 |
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| 18:11.08 | cesarb | qemu did say "s3c_clkpwr_write: SLOW mode on" and later "s3c_clkpwr_write: SLOW mode off", but now the timer seems to not be working very well |
| 18:11.46 | cesarb | it's advancing 5s for 10s of real time; it did work fine while in SLOW (except for the small emulator-related annoyance that there's no IDLE in SLOW, so it maxes the real CPU) |
| 18:12.22 | CIA-15 | freesmartphone.org: 03emdete * r46 10/trunk/software/py-proto/ (pygpsd.py pygsmd.py pyneod.py): |
| 18:12.22 | CIA-15 | freesmartphone.org: allow empty elevation and azimuth in nmea (as gllin sends on warmstart |
| 18:12.22 | CIA-15 | freesmartphone.org: for a while) in pygpsd |
| 18:12.23 | CIA-15 | freesmartphone.org: fix a bug in pygsmd for standalone mode (no activation from muxer) |
| 18:12.58 | Vegar | why are they doing it all in python? |
| 18:13.10 | emdete | Vegar: fast prototyping ;) |
| 18:13.40 | ArteK | mkdir /tmp/.bluemote |
| 18:13.40 | ArteK | touch /etc/bluemote.cfg |
| 18:13.41 | Sup3rkiddo | because python is cool |
| 18:13.42 | Vegar | good point |
| 18:14.14 | emdete | Vegar: perhaps, if we know the api and the implementation we redo everything in vala |
| 18:15.08 | balrog-kun | cesarb: iirc qemu does nothing except saying "SLOW mode on" when the SLOW mode is switched to :) |
| 18:15.49 | cesarb | balrog-kun: it also seemed to adjust its timing stuff, since the time inside qemu passed at the correct speed (I checked by running "date" twice 10s apart in real time and comparing the result) |
| 18:16.10 | cesarb | balrog-kun: at least my code didn't crash and/or burn, which is what I wanted to check |
| 18:16.20 | balrog-kun | cesarb: that must be the kernel separately adjusting the clock |
| 18:16.53 | balrog-kun | emdete: have you seen the gypsy python bindings? |
| 18:16.54 | cesarb | balrog-kun: precisely. It adjusts the clock to match the new frequency; qemu must be adjusting its own frequency if things are to keep in sync |
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| 18:18.36 | emdete | balrog-kun: no. i need a udp-plugin for gypsy. i took a look at it and found it too complex. the python binding is for client side? gyspy talks d-bus, so it should be easy with any language |
| 18:18.42 | balrog-kun | i think qemu just adjusts its frequency as a result of the clock adjustment by the kernel, and not as a result of switching SLOW mode on or off |
| 18:19.51 | balrog-kun | emdete: yeah, i'm just thinking that it may be used as a base for other program's interfaces |
| 18:20.00 | balrog-kun | or a freemsartphone standard |
| 18:20.12 | balrog-kun | freesmartphone.org |
| 18:21.41 | cesarb | balrog-kun: hm, I took a quick look at the qemu code, and it doesn't seem to do any frequency adjust at all... which might mean my timer adjust code might not be working correctly :( |
| 18:23.47 | SpeedEvil | Nowhere in the manual does it say that you can actually screw the CPU |
| 18:24.15 | SpeedEvil | I would be a bit careful before trying NAND writes |
| 18:24.36 | emdete | balrog-kun: that's the point: in the future pygpsd will do exactly the same on the dbus as gypsy |
| 18:25.18 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: it's a bit hard to avoid NAND writes when you have the userspace running... |
| 18:25.43 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: and it's a bit hard to test without the userspace running :| |
| 18:25.50 | emdete | balrog-kun: all the daemons on the neo run unstable in the past. i hadn't the time to implement all in c, so i startet with the prototypes in py |
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| 18:26.53 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: course it's not. |
| 18:26.58 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: boot and run off SD |
| 18:27.07 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: or worst-case, remount NAND ro |
| 18:27.30 | balrog-kun | emdete: sure, i just mean the api, if some api totally different from all existing implementations is chosen for the standard i don't think it will be very successful |
| 18:28.29 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: actually, I was planning on testing without the SD... one less thing to go wrong, and I don't have to write the notifier for it yet if I won't use it ;-) |
| 18:28.41 | balrog-kun | you can boot an initramfs for some experiments too |
| 18:28.58 | balrog-kun | but i don't think something irreversible can happen to the NAND |
| 18:28.59 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: remounting ro sounds like a good idea, "just in case" |
| 18:29.03 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: Or even RAMFS |
| 18:29.15 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: somehow write 1000 times to the boot sector |
| 18:29.30 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: that's irrecoverable - in principle |
| 18:29.49 | balrog-kun | SpeedEvil: because of siwthing the clock modes? |
| 18:30.02 | SpeedEvil | (the boot sector is only specified for 1000 writes) |
| 18:30.10 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: I can't imagine how that'd happen |
| 18:31.52 | SpeedEvil | Just saying that it is in principle possible to irrecoverably brick a neo |
| 18:32.06 | SpeedEvil | (well, barring SMD rework) |
| 18:32.28 | balrog-kun | yeah, that's possible |
| 18:33.12 | balrog-kun | and i'm sure if it says in the specs that the NAND can survive at least 1000 writes, it stops working at exactly 1001st write |
| 18:33.31 | balrog-kun | :) |
| 18:34.20 | SpeedEvil | It's in practice as I understand it likely to survive 50K |
| 18:34.28 | SpeedEvil | before getting a bit error |
| 18:34.43 | SpeedEvil | But it's only guaranteed to be error free for 1000. |
| 18:35.13 | SpeedEvil | The whole flash is guaranteed to take 100K writes before getting enough bad blocks to drop before its capacity. |
| 18:38.25 | emdete | balrog-kun: yes, shure, gpsd would be fine because of all the prgrams using it. but i prefere dbus so at least gypsy's api must be supported. imho gypsy's api has some ugliness also... :( |
| 18:39.34 | balrog-kun | *nod* |
| 18:39.59 | emdete | balrog-kun: and hier py rocks in: changing the api is a peace of cake ;) |
| 18:42.02 | *** join/#openmoko ccube (n=ccube@e177220024.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 18:46.33 | *** join/#openmoko Valnar (n=Miranda@ip-62-143-211-37.PH-1411C-BSR64K-01.ish.de) |
| 18:50.36 | *** join/#openmoko heikkit (n=chatzill@c-67-188-122-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 18:52.00 | *** join/#openmoko Dodji (n=dodji@torimasen.com) |
| 18:52.05 | voi1 | Are the packages downloades by ipkg stored or removed after installing? |
| 18:54.11 | emdete | voi1: they go to /tmp and are removed afterwords |
| 18:54.27 | *** join/#openmoko bbb8 (n=bbb8@78.101.253.253) |
| 18:54.33 | Vegar | why was ipkg renamed? |
| 18:54.37 | voi1 | okay, thx |
| 18:54.49 | borg_ | voi1: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Opkg |
| 18:55.20 | borg_ | "there are potential trademark issues with using the Ipkg name" |
| 18:55.25 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@78.42.60.129) |
| 18:55.30 | PBeck | hi |
| 18:55.33 | borg_ | the question is imo, why does oe use ipk and not deb's? |
| 18:55.45 | Vegar | ah |
| 18:55.47 | borg_ | there are so many deb's around |
| 18:55.48 | Vegar | thanks borg_ |
| 18:55.54 | borg_ | why use ipk? |
| 18:56.02 | Vegar | because it's lightweight |
| 18:56.03 | zash_ | ipk use less space they say |
| 18:56.13 | borg_ | yes, but is that valid today? |
| 18:56.29 | Vegar | yes, it's an embedded device |
| 18:56.49 | Vegar | and how many debs are there for the ARM architecture? |
| 18:58.35 | borg_ | the whole debian repository? |
| 18:58.50 | KrisAbsinthe | if so im switching |
| 18:59.03 | borg_ | of course |
| 18:59.22 | borg_ | josch has a debian running on his neo |
| 18:59.40 | borg_ | and why is a deb bigger then an ipk? |
| 19:00.26 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (n=fredsiba@nrbg-4dbfdc99.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 19:01.25 | borg_ | http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/post/jan/2007-08-26/debian-neo1973 |
| 19:02.43 | Vegar | borg_: ipkg 0.99 support ".deb format" |
| 19:02.54 | Vegar | http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/Ipkg |
| 19:03.01 | *** join/#openmoko fobos (n=fobos@78.90.88.244) |
| 19:03.18 | dcordes_ | hm debian on neo good idea |
| 19:04.09 | borg_ | Vegar: yes, but why dont we just switch to apt-get or aptitude and deb only? |
| 19:05.00 | Vegar | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:05.00 | Vegar | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:05.00 | Vegar | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:05.00 | Vegar | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:05.00 | Vegar | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:05.03 | Vegar | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:05.38 | *** join/#openmoko bbb8 (n=bbb8@78.101.253.253) |
| 19:06.54 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x_ (n=alvar@212-41-87-233.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 19:07.01 | mwester | There's a port of Debian to ARM. It can't be that difficult to make the Neo work with that distro, for those who really want to run a desktop distro on a cell phone ;) |
| 19:07.19 | borg_ | mwester: it is already done ;) |
| 19:07.33 | mwester | Well, then, there's your apt-get. |
| 19:07.52 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: I created http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:CesarB/cpufreq with a more detailed explanation of what I'm doing (feel free to fix any mistake on it) |
| 19:07.52 | dcordes_ | mwester: maybe some feel more complete when they have their desktop distro around. |
| 19:08.06 | borg_ | but then i have to make lots of debs for myself :) |
| 19:08.17 | KrisAbsinthe | Does anyone have a link for bin of debian? |
| 19:08.34 | borg_ | KrisAbsinthe: ask "josch" when he is back here |
| 19:08.41 | KrisAbsinthe | thx |
| 19:09.02 | mwester | It is rather cool, though, that we can even discuss running a standard distro like Debian on the device in the first place. |
| 19:09.31 | KrisAbsinthe | true, if a desktop is all that some people want, they can run OM with matchbox-desktop |
| 19:11.47 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 19:16.35 | *** join/#openmoko AlexJTanner (n=alex@68-187-80-127.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com) |
| 19:18.47 | emdete | cesarb: that sounds like long awaited code.. what is the state of the project currently? |
| 19:19.04 | cesarb | emdete: as explained on the link I just posted ;-) |
| 19:20.13 | emdete | cesarb: i didn't see how far it's already gone... |
| 19:20.13 | cesarb | emdete: about half of the drivers are done, the ones left are either optional (SD - you can remove the SD chip; IIS - you can just not use the sound) or shouldn't cause too many problems... but I'm still wary of actually testing on real hardware |
| 19:20.51 | cesarb | emdete: for two reasons: one, it's 2.6.24, which is not as well-tested as 2.6.22; two, the code I've written is completely untested ;-) |
| 19:21.30 | emdete | cesarb: i am not very familar with cpufreq and linux. what exactly is possible with it? a daemon can lower/restore the frequency? |
| 19:22.09 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 19:22.21 | SpeedEvil | according to CPU load or other factors |
| 19:22.30 | cesarb | emdete: it allows a governor (a separate piece of code) to set the target cpu frequency. One of the governors, "userspace", allows you to do it from a daemon. |
| 19:24.34 | emdete | cesarb: cool think... i really would like to have that soon :) |
| 19:24.34 | emdete | cesarb: does om pay you for that? |
| 19:25.16 | cesarb | emdete: no, but I have a GTA01 which I want to be able to use for more than just a few minutes untethered each time ;-) |
| 19:25.37 | cesarb | emdete: if I were paid, it would go way faster than "a couple of drivers each week" :D |
| 19:25.45 | emdete | cesarb: :D that's what i need it for too. |
| 19:27.33 | cesarb | emdete: that's what I like most about free software -- if something doesn't work the way I want it to work, I can go and bash the code until it does |
| 19:27.44 | daMaestro | lol |
| 19:27.46 | daMaestro | +1 |
| 19:28.00 | emdete | cesarb: exactly, but thre is so much todo... |
| 19:28.10 | cesarb | emdete: ...and so little time. |
| 19:28.45 | emdete | cesarb: exaclty... i try to help with user space daemons... |
| 19:34.31 | CIA-15 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r47 10/trunk/standards/otapi/ (2 files): |
| 19:34.31 | CIA-15 | freesmartphone.org: otapi/Network: |
| 19:34.31 | CIA-15 | freesmartphone.org: * add operator selection (Register, RegisterWithProvider) |
| 19:34.31 | CIA-15 | freesmartphone.org: * enhance ListOperators format |
| 19:34.43 | cesarb | scaling_governor says it's performance, but scaling_setspeed (from userspace) is there??? |
| 19:40.13 | *** join/#openmoko marsan (n=marsan@ti500720a080-2584.bb.online.no) |
| 19:41.40 | cesarb | hm, running with cpufreq.debug=7, I can see the cpufreq core isn't calling the notifiers when I'm thinking it should be calling the notifiers. Looks like there's a bug in my code. |
| 19:42.38 | *** part/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 19:47.13 | cesarb | great, the quite poor cpufreq documentation forgot to mention cpufreq_notify_transition... that's what I get for following the documentation :( |
| 19:51.32 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x__ (n=alvar@212-41-96-161.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 19:53.36 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 19:53.47 | *** join/#openmoko tholin (n=tholin@85.8.6.155.static.se.wasadata.net) |
| 19:54.17 | KrisAbsinthe | whats the resolution of the GTA01 |
| 19:54.40 | zash_ | VGA? |
| 19:55.43 | KrisAbsinthe | maybe i worded that wrong, i mean screen size res (800x600?) |
| 19:57.02 | KrisAbsinthe | got it 480x640 |
| 19:58.42 | daMaestro | which really looks awesome |
| 19:58.52 | daMaestro | once we get screen flipping going.. web browsing will be sick |
| 19:59.02 | KrisAbsinthe | I so agree, |
| 19:59.03 | daMaestro | (read: sick == cool, good, etc) |
| 19:59.03 | mwester | sick? I think it will be rather good, actually. |
| 19:59.09 | mwester | oh. |
| 19:59.24 | summatusmentis | screen flipping will be tied to accelerometers right? |
| 19:59.29 | daMaestro | yes |
| 19:59.36 | summatusmentis | sick ;-) |
| 19:59.43 | daMaestro | and iirc, manually can be done with the gta01 |
| 19:59.56 | KrisAbsinthe | Makes me wish i wated for the second model, looks like ill have two lol |
| 19:59.58 | Tronic | I wonder if the CPU is fast enough to run the screen. |
| 20:00.00 | daMaestro | (i'd expect some tap target to issue the flipping) |
| 20:00.24 | daMaestro | Tronic, gta01? .. somewhat |
| 20:00.27 | daMaestro | depends on what you are doing |
| 20:00.29 | Tronic | gta02, mostly. |
| 20:00.32 | summatusmentis | KrisAbsinthe: you may be able to upgrade the board.... potentially |
| 20:00.39 | daMaestro | ah, yes... gta02 should be great |
| 20:00.50 | KrisAbsinthe | that would be so great!!!! |
| 20:00.52 | daMaestro | it will have a gpu and a 400Mhz risc |
| 20:00.54 | SpeedEvil | summatusmentis: that's looking _very_ unlikely |
| 20:00.55 | Tronic | I cannot tolerate the delays that are there in all modern mobile phones. |
| 20:01.09 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: purchasing a gta02 board is unlikely? |
| 20:01.16 | summatusmentis | I didn't mean upgrade in the sense of soldering |
| 20:01.18 | SpeedEvil | summatusmentis: you basically need to completely rebuild the phone |
| 20:01.22 | daMaestro | i'm not sure what the gpu is going to be (i'd not looked at the clock at least( |
| 20:01.30 | SpeedEvil | summatusmentis: and the LCD is glued on for example. |
| 20:01.41 | SpeedEvil | (to the PCB) |
| 20:01.41 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: oh... I didn't realize that |
| 20:01.54 | KrisAbsinthe | yup |
| 20:02.05 | daMaestro | the cost is a little bit of a kick in the junk |
| 20:02.08 | summatusmentis | there are still plans for an 850MHz version (GTA02us) right? |
| 20:02.16 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 20:02.17 | daMaestro | but if the hardware works >:) this time.. i'll be happy |
| 20:03.06 | KrisAbsinthe | ill be much happier writing apps for the GTA02, much more to do with it |
| 20:03.24 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-162-085.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 20:03.30 | daMaestro | yeah, but there are still a lot of bug fixing that can be done for the gta01 |
| 20:03.37 | daMaestro | (i should say for the core applications) |
| 20:03.53 | daMaestro | gsmd has come a long ways since first getting the phone :-D |
| 20:03.56 | KrisAbsinthe | agreed |
| 20:03.57 | summatusmentis | calls are able to be made sucessfully? |
| 20:04.06 | summatusmentis | I've been out of the loop |
| 20:04.06 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, yes (i can) |
| 20:04.11 | daMaestro | and incoming too |
| 20:04.17 | summatusmentis | awesome |
| 20:04.27 | daMaestro | sms via the gsmd stuff (i don't think they are working via the gui yet) |
| 20:04.38 | KrisAbsinthe | yup. me too. when im in a GSM 1900 area,... anyone who is paying attention,. i bitch about that alot |
| 20:04.44 | daMaestro | reading the phone book off the sim is something that i look forward to |
| 20:05.15 | daMaestro | KrisAbsinthe, you seem to be us bound... what carrier? |
| 20:05.25 | daMaestro | u.s.* |
| 20:05.48 | KrisAbsinthe | no sms via the GUI and it still does not import contacts from SIM |
| 20:05.51 | daMaestro | (unless road runner offers service outside of the US and i didn't know) |
| 20:06.02 | KrisAbsinthe | AT&T/Cingular |
| 20:06.10 | summatusmentis | I hoping to find that tmobile has decent coverage where I go to school, then I'll be buying gta02 |
| 20:06.13 | daMaestro | hmm.. i don't seem to have any issues here in CO |
| 20:06.30 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, i've had nothing but good luck with the tmobile network |
| 20:06.31 | ljp | qtopia can access the sim contacts |
| 20:06.41 | KrisAbsinthe | Its just my area, google mechanicsburg,OH |
| 20:06.42 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: are you paying for data? if so, what paln? |
| 20:06.59 | KrisAbsinthe | yes qtopia can |
| 20:07.00 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, i have data for my att sim, but not for my tmobile |
| 20:07.11 | summatusmentis | what's the cost on att? |
| 20:07.13 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, there is some new "unlimited" data plan that is like $9.95/m |
| 20:07.18 | *** join/#openmoko MeTa[AwAy] (n=khmhm@dsl5402D6A2.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 20:07.18 | daMaestro | (for tmobile) |
| 20:07.39 | daMaestro | att can be on-demand $.10/KB or something like $19.99/m for unlimited |
| 20:07.57 | summatusmentis | and that's unlimited for use on the handset, supposed to be used for small browsing on a little non-smartphone? |
| 20:07.59 | daMaestro | i've not looked as i can't reliably teather yet |
| 20:08.04 | summatusmentis | mm |
| 20:08.24 | daMaestro | it's unlimited access to GPRS |
| 20:08.42 | KrisAbsinthe | with the neo and unlimited data, free internet anywhere |
| 20:08.47 | daMaestro | which, i think, also includes their 3g offerings... but that doesn't matter much for a neo |
| 20:08.53 | bbb8 | :( i wish the telecom company here in qatar (qtel) had a monthly unlimited plan for internet |
| 20:08.54 | KrisAbsinthe | on laptop YAY |
| 20:09.11 | daMaestro | bbb8, yeah.. i've looked at some of the overseas rates.. it's just amazing |
| 20:09.19 | daMaestro | bbb8, something like $20/10MB |
| 20:09.28 | summatusmentis | assuming I can find decent gsm coverage, I'll be picking up gta02 |
| 20:09.35 | bbb8 | we pay like 10 QAR for 1 MB, that's around..... lemme see |
| 20:09.35 | KrisAbsinthe | wow, thats terrible |
| 20:09.52 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, tmobile and att have pretty damn good coverage |
| 20:10.03 | bbb8 | that's 2.75 USD per MB |
| 20:10.17 | daMaestro | yeah, so i was just about on.. $27/10MB |
| 20:10.23 | daMaestro | that is just sooooo yuck |
| 20:10.26 | KrisAbsinthe | yea, if I drive 5 miles in any direction im in a GSM 1900 area, |
| 20:10.26 | bbb8 | yea :( it's too much! |
| 20:10.29 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: I go to school in rural western MN, and live in rural ME when I'm not in school(on the border of complete dead zone in northern ME) |
| 20:10.58 | *** join/#openmoko moko-bunny (n=reik@CPE-76-178-148-218.natnow.res.rr.com) |
| 20:11.08 | bbb8 | 'n i use internet alot on phone, so i bought n95 so i can connect with the wireless router |
| 20:11.14 | daMaestro | i have noticed some signal dropouts from att :-/ |
| 20:11.25 | daMaestro | but tmobile almost always has a great signal |
| 20:11.37 | KrisAbsinthe | I thought the service was better when it was just Cingular |
| 20:11.53 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: where though? I'm not worried about good signal in cities, I just spend most of my time in the middle of nowhere |
| 20:12.12 | daMaestro | KrisAbsinthe, well.. you are not an iphone user, so you are a second class consumer to them |
| 20:12.35 | KrisAbsinthe | Yup lol |
| 20:12.41 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, gsm has a pretty good distance ability... but i have no idea about your situation |
| 20:12.57 | KrisAbsinthe | http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/GSM_WorldPoster2007A.pdf |
| 20:13.06 | KrisAbsinthe | that is the GSm master list |
| 20:14.51 | summatusmentis | I'll ask around |
| 20:15.24 | daMaestro | KrisAbsinthe, lol.. that is a $30 pdf if bbb8 would download over gprs |
| 20:15.44 | KrisAbsinthe | There may be some impending mods or firmware for GSM 850 |
| 20:15.47 | KrisAbsinthe | LOL |
| 20:16.15 | KrisAbsinthe | of course IRC over GPRS would cost a small fortune |
| 20:16.29 | bbb8 | haha yea |
| 20:16.46 | bbb8 | 'n the calls are very expensive too, |
| 20:16.51 | KrisAbsinthe | I say we all just go back to BBSing |
| 20:17.07 | bbb8 | qtel is the monopoly in here, the only telecom company in Qatar |
| 20:17.14 | KrisAbsinthe | kinda dated myself there |
| 20:17.32 | bbb8 | but now they're getting new licenses for vodafone or some other company |
| 20:17.33 | KrisAbsinthe | Wow thats horrible |
| 20:17.34 | CIA-15 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r48 10/trunk/standards/otapi/ (README org.freesmartphone.GSM.PDP.xml): otapi: add first sketch at org.freesmartphone.GSM.PDP |
| 20:17.35 | mjr | KrisAbsinthe, let's not overgeneralize, there are countries with sane data plans available :] |
| 20:17.38 | bbb8 | hopefully the prices will be better |
| 20:17.42 | bbb8 | yea i know |
| 20:18.00 | bbb8 | 'n all their services are fucked up |
| 20:18.02 | bbb8 | internet censored |
| 20:18.29 | bbb8 | u can go 'n write nude on google.com 'n it'll come out blocked, |
| 20:18.37 | bbb8 | or alot of websites not contained any pornography |
| 20:18.40 | KrisAbsinthe | well that would just piss me off |
| 20:18.43 | bbb8 | containing* |
| 20:18.49 | bbb8 | yea, |
| 20:18.57 | bbb8 | proxies all don't work, |
| 20:19.04 | bbb8 | only tunneling with tor 'n some other programs work |
| 20:19.04 | KrisAbsinthe | when does it end, is free thinking blocked there |
| 20:19.22 | bbb8 | so on linux i'm stuck to the slow tor, |
| 20:19.39 | bbb8 | free thinking is not blocked, but u can't really talk freely |
| 20:19.40 | bbb8 | :p |
| 20:19.52 | *** join/#openmoko hansmbakker (n=hansmbak@ip5657905b.direct-adsl.nl) |
| 20:20.17 | bbb8 | u know what they did at some time? |
| 20:20.23 | bbb8 | it was "eid" like holiday |
| 20:20.35 | bbb8 | whhere everyone calls familys 'n americans call home 'n stuff |
| 20:20.42 | bbb8 | they blocked all voIP programs |
| 20:20.55 | KrisAbsinthe | that is cheeky |
| 20:20.58 | bbb8 | so that people use the telephones 'n get charged very very high prices |
| 20:21.26 | bbb8 | 'n then they said that they had to reduce the bandwidth of the things 'n bullshit and that they didn't turn off the voIP on purpose |
| 20:21.46 | KrisAbsinthe | sounds like bull shit to me |
| 20:21.51 | bbb8 | it is :p |
| 20:22.08 | daMaestro | bbb8, so, you must really enjoy the prospects of a "free open source" phone? |
| 20:22.24 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x_ (n=alvar@212-41-117-140.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 20:22.31 | daMaestro | granted, you'll still need a carrier; it will still be a step in a positive direction |
| 20:22.41 | bbb8 | haha hell yea i do :p |
| 20:22.57 | bbb8 | but hopefully soon the vodafone will open 'n everything will be better, |
| 20:23.04 | daMaestro | excuse me; you would still need transit (gsm or ip or whatever) |
| 20:23.10 | bbb8 | thing is QTel is owned by a sheikh, 'n sheikhs control the country in here, |
| 20:23.21 | bbb8 | they can do whatever they want |
| 20:23.32 | KrisAbsinthe | bbb8: where are you? |
| 20:23.39 | bbb8 | so if they want they can tell vodafone to not have their prices low, so not many people switch from Qtel |
| 20:23.42 | bbb8 | Qatar, |
| 20:23.46 | bbb8 | u know next to saudia arabia, |
| 20:23.47 | bbb8 | bahrain |
| 20:23.50 | bbb8 | united arab emirates |
| 20:23.55 | summatusmentis | oh god! I'm emulating openmoko inside of a virtualized debian, inside of OS X |
| 20:23.59 | bbb8 | there in the middle of the persian gulf |
| 20:24.39 | KrisAbsinthe | is all internet censored there? |
| 20:25.44 | bbb8 | not all, pornography, some gulf concerned political stuff, things against islam, things against the sheikhs 'n the emirs of the surrounding countries |
| 20:25.49 | bbb8 | these kinda things, |
| 20:25.57 | bbb8 | and alllllot of proxy 'n anonymous tool websites |
| 20:25.59 | KrisAbsinthe | i see |
| 20:26.18 | bbb8 | tor website was even blocked, but now it's not 'n that's really weird, they never do such a thing |
| 20:26.46 | KrisAbsinthe | i dont like censorship at all , it interests me to know how other countries work |
| 20:27.19 | bbb8 | yea, that's exactly why i use tor, |
| 20:27.28 | bbb8 | anyone know a better tool for linux? for anonymizing traffic>? |
| 20:27.34 | bbb8 | tunneling? |
| 20:27.38 | cesarb | bbb8: ssh |
| 20:27.52 | KrisAbsinthe | you can ssh into my box, i dont care |
| 20:28.19 | daMaestro | you can also find many public shell accounts that will allow you to tunnel |
| 20:28.30 | KrisAbsinthe | yup |
| 20:28.39 | daMaestro | freeshell.org (for example) (search: http://giyf.us/free+shell+account |
| 20:28.41 | daMaestro | ) |
| 20:28.48 | KrisAbsinthe | is tor the same as onion routing? |
| 20:28.54 | bbb8 | yup |
| 20:28.59 | KrisAbsinthe | thought so |
| 20:29.11 | cesarb | KrisAbsinthe: tor is only one implementation of the general concept of onion routing |
| 20:29.31 | bbb8 | what other implementations are out there? |
| 20:29.42 | cesarb | KrisAbsinthe: there were others like (IIRC) IIP or I2P or something like that |
| 20:30.06 | KrisAbsinthe | See , learn something everyday |
| 20:30.13 | bbb8 | yup :) |
| 20:30.20 | bbb8 | anyone tried freenet? |
| 20:30.31 | bbb8 | freenetproject.org |
| 20:31.06 | cesarb | bbb8: don't bother. it's extremly slow, and the only interesting content there was a blog called "Cave of Evil" |
| 20:31.19 | bbb8 | oh |
| 20:31.30 | bbb8 | what was interesting in it? |
| 20:31.31 | cesarb | bbb8: (granted, I last used it back when I was on university, many years ago) |
| 20:31.54 | *** part/#openmoko hansmbakker (n=hansmbak@ip5657905b.direct-adsl.nl) |
| 20:32.00 | bbb8 | oh ok |
| 20:32.03 | cesarb | bbb8: it was an interesting blog, like the several interesting blogs you can find in the open Internet |
| 20:32.07 | bbb8 | how about JAP? |
| 20:32.23 | bbb8 | anon.inf.tu-dresden.de/index_en.html |
| 20:32.27 | cesarb | bbb8: i vaguely recall seeing that acronym somewhere, but other than that I have no idea |
| 20:32.52 | bbb8 | the website is censored in here, |
| 20:32.57 | bbb8 | so can't tell u what's in there... |
| 20:33.50 | bbb8 | check " Description of Artwork: Websites containing pornography, political criticism of Gulf leaders and anti-Islamic themes are being blocked by Qtel. Chat sites are also being blocked because they serve as a threat to telephone services which Qtel has a monopoly over." |
| 20:34.23 | KrisAbsinthe | OMG thats insane |
| 20:34.52 | bbb8 | http://www.thefileroom.org/documents/dyn/DisplayCase.cfm/id/1023 |
| 20:35.03 | cesarb | wtf... they don't even bother to hide the commercial intent behind the blocking? |
| 20:35.34 | bbb8 | haha, no it's not written by them of course, |
| 20:35.57 | bbb8 | the source is a daily newspaper called www.gulf-times.com |
| 20:36.08 | cesarb | bbb8: that JAP site looks like another one like tor or I2P |
| 20:36.20 | bbb8 | o ok, works on java i believe? |
| 20:36.31 | bbb8 | this is how it looks http://www.ordoesitexplode.com/photos/uncategorized/qatarcensor_1.gif |
| 20:37.01 | KrisAbsinthe | wow |
| 20:37.14 | bbb8 | haha yea, but it covers the whole screen :p |
| 20:37.43 | KrisAbsinthe | so i assume if you were to order 2600 magazine you probably would never get it? |
| 20:38.07 | bbb8 | haha, nah, 1 thing i gotta say, they do this kinda stuff, but they're really stupid in other ways.. |
| 20:38.31 | bbb8 | like u can simply connect trough the GPRS go surf their whole network, make scans fuck of alot, then they wont even know it.... |
| 20:38.40 | bbb8 | if anyone good with computers comes to qatar |
| 20:38.52 | bbb8 | and sees all those poorly encrypted business wireless networks |
| 20:38.59 | bbb8 | with WEP encryptions on it, |
| 20:39.09 | KrisAbsinthe | all wifi networks are poorly encrypted |
| 20:39.45 | KrisAbsinthe | chalk one up for war driving |
| 20:39.54 | SpeedEvil | KrisAbsinthe: proof |
| 20:40.11 | SpeedEvil | KrisAbsinthe: publish an attack on non-trivial length WAP keys |
| 20:40.24 | KrisAbsinthe | give me the target |
| 20:40.40 | SpeedEvil | Any WAP AP with a long key |
| 20:41.51 | KrisAbsinthe | sounds like a challenge lol if i get time between OM, College and work ill try to do it soon |
| 20:42.29 | SpeedEvil | Given that nobody has published it at all, I have doubts. |
| 20:42.38 | SpeedEvil | Can you outline your attack against the algorithm? |
| 20:42.45 | summatusmentis | maybe it's just because I'm using qemu-1973, but it seems like parts of the interface are not intuitive, is there a manual or something? |
| 20:43.03 | SpeedEvil | summatusmentis: It's the same on the hardware. |
| 20:43.28 | Vegar | summatusmentis: what's not intuitive? |
| 20:43.31 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: the hardware is more responsive |
| 20:43.44 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: clicking on qemu can be a bit hard |
| 20:43.45 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: it seems to me as though the icons are just ambiguous is all |
| 20:43.46 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: more responsive - however a manual would be nice. |
| 20:44.01 | mwester | hehe! Parts of the GUI look and feel like someone spent a lot of time on it; other parts look like they were just added on as an afterthought, or just to get some basic stuff working. I suspect that'll all be cleaned up as things get working. |
| 20:44.11 | summatusmentis | Vegar: icons being ambiguous, and there's no easy way to get back to the home screen |
| 20:44.40 | mwester | Having to fight with that blasted power button to close an app is my pet peeve. :) |
| 20:45.07 | KrisAbsinthe | we also need to assign one of the buttons for volume |
| 20:45.22 | summatusmentis | mwester: closing an app? |
| 20:45.45 | cesarb | hm, after setting the speed to 12000 on qemu, the time increases 6s for each 10s; after setting the speed back... the same keeps happening. either qemu's emulation of the timers is wonky, or there's something wrong with my code |
| 20:45.50 | Vegar | summatusmentis: app manager or power button |
| 20:45.58 | mwester | Yes. If you just navigate the GUI, it just switches windows; the apps stay running. |
| 20:46.09 | summatusmentis | oh, maybe that's why I got confused |
| 20:46.13 | mwester | The only way to kill an app is to use the power button when the app has focus. |
| 20:46.51 | summatusmentis | which I think is 'enter' when it's qemu |
| 20:46.51 | mwester | I'd prefer the classic little "x" in a corner somewhere, myself. |
| 20:47.05 | Vegar | I'm not sure if the power/aux buttons work in qemu |
| 20:47.25 | summatusmentis | Vegar: well, i had to use the aux button to choose to boot the thing |
| 20:47.34 | Vegar | yeah, but I never got it working after that |
| 20:47.34 | balrog-kun | cesarb: perhaps both :) |
| 20:49.00 | Vegar | summatusmentis: to get back to the home screen you click the application's title (top left) and choose "Home" in the dropdown menu |
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| 21:04.28 | cesarb | qemu might be a somewhat poor emulation of the real hardware, but it sure does help a LOT |
| 21:06.17 | cesarb | and with -stdio serial, killing gsmd and powering off the "gsm" (to get the serial back), you can watch the kernel output easily (and interact with uboot) |
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| 21:09.54 | balrog-kun | a timing accurate emulator would be really hard to make and completely unusable |
| 21:10.08 | balrog-kun | because it would be hundreds times slower than qemu |
| 21:11.10 | SpeedEvil | I debate hundreds. |
| 21:11.13 | KrisAbsinthe | you could build natively ....lol |
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| 21:11.37 | SpeedEvil | I'd say 2-3 times at worst |
| 21:12.03 | SpeedEvil | you simply store an instruction time along with the instructions, and total these as you go along |
| 21:12.15 | balrog-kun | considering the optimal implementation? |
| 21:12.19 | balrog-kun | oh, it's not that simple |
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| 21:12.34 | mwester | The hardware emulation needs to be involved as well, then. |
| 21:12.40 | balrog-kun | every memory access (even by the processor when reading off instrucitons) has a different timing |
| 21:13.04 | balrog-kun | the caches make a huge difference |
| 21:13.07 | mwester | e.g. the serial port emulator would need to ensure that it toggled the bits in the virtual registers at appropriate times... tough. |
| 21:13.16 | SpeedEvil | You can do a pretty good first cut just by using the instruction timings that must be implied. |
| 21:13.57 | balrog-kun | imho that would be a worse first cut than current qemu |
| 21:14.05 | SpeedEvil | And a static analysis when you load the code |
| 21:14.17 | balrog-kun | qemu has an effect very similar to icache |
| 21:14.44 | SpeedEvil | To do it properly, you'd need to emulate all the nastiness that is cachelines and SDRAM acess timings |
| 21:15.26 | balrog-kun | err, wouldn't |
| 21:15.58 | SpeedEvil | No - doing it properly certainly wouldn't. |
| 21:16.46 | balrog-kun | cesarb: if you see a part that is poorly emulated in a way not related to timing please report it |
| 21:19.29 | cesarb | balrog-kun: it's related to timing, but not to the _instruction_ timing... it does not seem to be emulating transitions on the clock speeds, and I'm suspecting the timer emulation is less than correct when you play games with the manual reload bit |
| 21:20.34 | cesarb | balrog-kun: see for instance the timer games at http://repo.or.cz/w/linux-2.6/s3c2410-cpufreq.git?a=commitdiff;h=84a9b15c4c93fb9eeccd3d86c237a11822dc31cd |
| 21:20.46 | cesarb | balrog-kun: I'm not sure my code is correct, but I'm not sure qemu's is either |
| 21:25.13 | cesarb | (I reload both the _current value_ and the reload value, and expect both to remain separate. I'm suspecting qemu is mixing them up) |
| 21:25.24 | mwester | Along with a debug board, if you don't have one :) |
| 21:25.25 | cesarb | mwester: lol |
| 21:25.27 | balrog-kun | cesarb: i'm ok with the tick rates not being correct for the s3c timers, and other timers |
| 21:25.31 | cesarb | mwester: I do have one, but didn't find a need for it yet. It's more "just in case" |
| 21:25.31 | cesarb | balrog-kun: if the tick rate is wrong wrt real time, you get the "real time" from within the emulator wrong, which is annoying (the time ticks faster or slower) |
| 21:25.31 | balrog-kun | the timers' resoltuion is quite low anyway, in qemu, because it's a linux program and linux doesn't let you get a really good resolution |
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| 21:25.36 | cesarb | balrog-kun: I think you can get good resolution if you use the correct APIs |
| 21:25.36 | balrog-kun | however i would treat it as a bug if things start happening ina wrong order or the values read from registers are incorrect (except the time values in registers) |
| 21:25.39 | cesarb | balrog-kun: and it doesn't need to be that exact, just that the equivalent of 1s in timer ticks has to be more or less 1s, so it won't drift much |
| 21:26.20 | balrog-kun | well, yeah that would certainly be nice |
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| 21:26.52 | balrog-kun | but i don't really see that as a bug, or poor emulation |
| 21:27.17 | balrog-kun | i think when you use an emulator you have to assume the time can be completely warped |
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| 21:58.24 | cesarb | according to page 287 of the datasheet, I'm wrong. |
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| 22:01.13 | cesarb | And the way I'm wrong is that I'm setting the registers in the wrong order :P |
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| 22:04.56 | Vegar | meh |
| 22:05.01 | Vegar | I wish qemu would use both my cores |
| 22:09.50 | Vegar | would/could |
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| 22:13.32 | cesarb | This is annoying. If I use "cpufreq.debug=7" it all works, but if I use "cpufreq.debug=7 cpufreq.debug_ratelimit=0" it panics when mounting root, apparently because the list of partitions in the kernel command line got truncated. |
| 22:13.52 | cesarb | How short is the command line lenght limit? |
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| 22:31.39 | mwester | 1024 chars IIRC |
| 22:32.03 | mwester | u-boot might have a different idea, though |
| 22:33.19 | Vegar | it was mentioned on one of the MLs a few days ago |
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| 22:37.18 | pavelm | Hello, everyone. |
| 22:39.18 | Vegar | hi |
| 22:39.59 | pavelm | ...I did not have time for openmoko for awhile :-(. Is there any progress in SMSes and/or powermanagement? |
| 22:40.46 | SpeedEvil | pavelm: ish, and sort-of |
| 22:41.10 | SpeedEvil | pavelm: SMS - there is a SMS applicaiton that reportedly works for some, occasionally. |
| 22:41.18 | SpeedEvil | I don't understand how to use it. |
| 22:41.22 | pavelm | Speedevil: "ish"? |
| 22:41.24 | pavelm | speedevil :-). |
| 22:41.30 | pavelm | Is there some good snapshot I should try? |
| 22:41.34 | SpeedEvil | Power saving - cesarb is working on clock freq changing |
| 22:41.55 | SpeedEvil | I don't know I've never understood how it's supposed to work. |
| 22:42.02 | SpeedEvil | So I'm not sure if it's working or not. |
| 22:42.14 | pavelm | speed: Hmm, I'm afraid clock freqency is not going to help -- unless clock frequency means "suspend the main cpu". |
| 22:42.28 | SpeedEvil | It helps a fair bit |
| 22:42.41 | SpeedEvil | Supply current at 40Mhz is _much_ lower than at 266. |
| 22:42.57 | SpeedEvil | And yes, suspend is needed. |
| 22:43.03 | SpeedEvil | As are numerous other things. |
| 22:43.30 | mwester | Power is consumed mainly as the semiconductors transition between 0 and 1 states; so the slower the clock the less power (and heat). |
| 22:43.44 | SpeedEvil | mwester: as a first approximation. |
| 22:43.45 | pavelm | speed: Well, idle @ 40MHz is not neccessarily too different from idle @ 266MHz, but I guess that depends on cpu heavily. |
| 22:43.57 | SpeedEvil | pavelm: it is quite significantly |
| 22:44.10 | pavelm | mwester: Not in modern cpus :-(. Leakage current got quite high in recent desktop designs. |
| 22:44.20 | SpeedEvil | And yes of course rapid suspend-RAM and resume'd be nice. |
| 22:45.24 | pavelm | speed: I believe suspend-RAM works, except that GSM will not work after resume :-( |
| 22:45.38 | SpeedEvil | pavelm: I mean dynamic - as in 10-100ms |
| 22:45.49 | SpeedEvil | So it can suspend between user interactions |
| 22:45.57 | pavelm | speed: I see. Thats hard to do unfortunately |
| 22:46.18 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 22:46.47 | pavelm | ScaredyCat is reliable source of recent images, right? |
| 22:54.32 | Vegar | SpeedEvil: is that possible? |
| 22:54.40 | SpeedEvil | Vegar: what? |
| 22:54.46 | SpeedEvil | Vegar: yes - in principle |
| 22:54.50 | Vegar | 10-100ms suspend? |
| 22:54.55 | SpeedEvil | Vegar: in practice, there are issues. |
| 22:55.01 | Vegar | right |
| 22:55.30 | Vegar | is that what laptop CPUs do? |
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| 22:55.58 | pavelm | vegar: No, normal laptops can't do that. But they can power down significant parts of cpu when idle. |
| 22:56.08 | Vegar | ok |
| 22:57.10 | Vegar | so that's what the C-states are for |
| 22:58.19 | SpeedEvil | And many CPUs essentially do do fast suspend and resume |
| 22:58.26 | SpeedEvil | it's just it's hidden in ACPI |
| 23:01.09 | pavelm | speed: Yes, but it is _cpu_ suspend/resume, so rest of the system stays powered up. |
| 23:03.47 | SpeedEvil | True of course. |
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| 23:08.13 | SpeedEvil | However, the amount of state to restore all the peripherals is not high. |
| 23:08.25 | SpeedEvil | Working out how to do it is the issue. |
| 23:11.43 | pavelm | speed: Actually, that's what I'm trying to figure out in my day tjob ;-) |
| 23:12.06 | pavelm | I even have some patches, but SATA refuses to cooperate, and machine without harddrive is basically dead :-( |
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| 23:12.15 | SpeedEvil | :/ |
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| 23:22.42 | SpeedEvil | (partially as a testbed for other hardware) |
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| 23:23.11 | pavelm | ok, neo updated, booting... |
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| 23:24.33 | pavelm | speed: I tried that on a PC, and yes it saved a bit of power. |
| 23:25.15 | zash_ | orly? less data to send to lcd? |
| 23:26.03 | SpeedEvil | zash_: no |
| 23:26.09 | SpeedEvil | zash_: read less data from memory |
| 23:26.31 | SpeedEvil | zash_: it currently reads 2*640*480*60 bytes/second from the SDRAM |
| 23:26.51 | SpeedEvil | zash_: each byte taken from RAM costs power |
| 23:26.59 | pavelm | ...I've received first SMS on openmoko, good. |
| 23:27.12 | SpeedEvil | pavelm: it saves some 10% power on my laptop dropping to 4 bit mode in X |
| 23:27.15 | SpeedEvil | (when idle) |
| 23:27.38 | cb22 | SpeedEvil: 10? thats quite good |
| 23:29.04 | pavelm | ..and I guess I was able to send a message, too. Delivery reports do not seem to work, but I guess I can survive that. |
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| 23:30.19 | SpeedEvil | :) |
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| 23:30.35 | SpeedEvil | cbrake_away: yes - it is very old hardware - I don't know how more recent hardware would act |
| 23:30.39 | SpeedEvil | cb2: |
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| 23:49.21 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: ...wow. That's OLPC-level hackery you did :P |
| 23:49.36 | SpeedEvil | Err - no. |
| 23:49.44 | SpeedEvil | startx -- -bpp 8 |
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| 23:50.22 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: I mean, most people wouldn't even THINK of reducing color depth to save power |
| 23:50.30 | SpeedEvil | Oh |
| 23:50.34 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: at least on "normal" (not embedded) hardware |
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