IRC log for #openmoko on 20071207

00:00.08Cyorxamp?
00:00.17SuNJumping ship, I mean.
00:00.32Cyorxampwhat about it
00:01.09SuNDoes that mean "abandoning" or does it mean the opposite (or neither)?
00:01.11Cyorxampmy other idea was get a HTC Universal - apparently everything works but one of the cameras on the linux for it
00:01.28Cyorxamponly I'd really hate the 'e' button looking up at me
00:01.30SuNEven power management?
00:01.35Cyorxampthink so
00:02.04CyorxampWiFi, Bluetooth, GSM, CDMA, GPRS, WAP, you name it
00:02.04SuNHM
00:02.21SuNNot sure if it's too bulky, but the HTC machines are awesome devices.
00:02.32SuNIf they didn't run sordid Windows Mobile I would have gotten one.
00:02.42Cyorxampsure but I'd much prefer a unit specifically meant for linux
00:02.55SuNIf everything works, frankly, I don't care.
00:03.03Cyorxampbut high speed data is a must, especially in a country where its very much available
00:03.30SuNMy unlimited plan is limited (yes, that sounds contradictory) to 128kbit anyway.
00:03.51CyorxampOn O2 here, I think its £20 a month, and you get 3gb a month
00:04.13Cyorxampshould be enough for my VoIP needs, instant messaging, and occasional web site
00:04.15SuNI pay EUR 10 for this, it's fair use.
00:04.45SuNBut with 128kbit, what are you going to do, anyway.
00:05.00SuNI use it for occasional browsing when I'm bored in the train, and mobile e-mail.
00:05.04CyorxampCDMA is up to about 1.5mbps  now
00:05.05SuNNo interest in VOIP.
00:05.12Cyorxampdual 3G modems get you up to 3mbps
00:05.29SuNNice. But faster than my home line :D
00:05.48Cyorxamplol, you can't not take an interest in VoIP here... all analogue lines will be off by 2011 - everyone will be on VoIP if you like it or now
00:05.49Cyorxamp*not
00:06.14SuNLandline voip, perhaps, but I see no use for it on the road.
00:06.35Cyorxampif your device is constantly on the net... like your home
00:06.39Cyorxampwhy use GSM at all?
00:06.51mjrCost. But I don't do voice calls much anyway, so it's kinda moot.
00:06.54SuNBecause for now, it's cheaper.
00:07.04SuNANd the overhead is bullshit, IMO.
00:07.05CyorxampCheaper on GSM! nonsense!
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00:07.29Cyorxamp£20 for 3gb a month, always on internet - always able to receive and make calls using a SIP client
00:07.35Cyorxamptake your home number with you!
00:07.52SuNHow many minutes does that translate to, though?
00:07.56SuNANd is it reliable?
00:08.04mjrwhat home number...
00:08.08Cyorxampwell coverage here is very good
00:08.20Cyorxampmjr, whatever DDI your SIP provider may give you
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00:08.52Cyorxampyou could even use SIP URI's
00:09.17mjryeah yeah
00:09.22CyorxampDNS servers here are being updated for ENUM support ready for the swap
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00:11.42Cyorxampwell anyway - I'll keep my ears out for any GTA03 next year
00:11.57Cyorxampelse I might go for a HTC or a Nokia combo
00:13.11Cyorxampnight!
00:13.13mjrmight as well already
00:13.16ewonI'd be tempted by the HTC TyTn II if the OS wasn't so retarded
00:14.05CyorxampI might be tempted by a new nokia communicator, thats if it could run linux lol
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00:15.22SuNHm, too bulky for me.
00:15.40SuNewon: I second that
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00:30.31CIA-2303mickeyl * r5 10/trunk/README: ciabot testcommit 2
00:32.22CIA-2303mickeyl * r6 10/trunk/README: ciabot testcommit #3
00:32.28mickeylmmrh
00:33.23alphaonemickeyl: ?
00:33.36mickeyli want the bot to show the project name
00:33.42alphaoneAh
00:33.53mickeylsince i'm feeding more than just openmoko here now
00:34.06*** join/#openmoko mmp (n=mmp@158.195.96.206)
00:34.07mickeylbut somehow he refuses
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00:37.33CIA-2303mickeyl * r7 10/trunk/README: add link to wiki
00:39.51CIA-23freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r8 10/trunk/README: sign
00:39.55mickeylaha
00:39.57mickeylhere we are
00:40.05mickeylok, now i can go to bed
00:40.07mickeylg'night
00:40.08mickeyl:)
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00:47.52Kerowhat is the status of power saving of gta01 ?
00:48.37mwesterno change
00:49.41Writchiewhen 2.6.24 changes settle down someone will look at patches necessary to uart driver
00:49.56mwesterAre we at .24 now, then?
00:50.09Writchieit looks like the 24 work may be passing 23
00:50.18Writchieso 22 -> 24
00:50.48WritchieLaForge is pushing a bunch of stuff upstream into 24rc4
00:50.49Kerofine with me :)
00:50.51mwesterOk.  hehe - see what happens when I become busy elsewhere for a couple of weeks...
00:51.04Writchieyou can't do that
00:51.08Writchie;)
00:51.16dashavooim just telling somebody on another server/channel about the neo1973, was wondering whether anyone has written an sms/mms app yet, since last time I checked there wasnt one?
00:51.21mwester:)  December is Hell Month for me.
00:51.34Writchiethere is also a new kernel guy on board and coming up to speed
00:51.50Keromwester: what should we do to convince you not to be busy elsewhere? :)
00:52.06mwesterPay me real $ so I don't have to work for a living anymore ;) :P
00:52.27abraxa_dashavoo: There's openmoko-messages2
00:52.33Keroexchange rate from euros isn't that bad ;)
00:52.35balrog-kunKero: no,a ctually so that mwester *is* busy elsewhere, cause we immediately get updates then :P
00:52.37Writchieaww - work and leisure getting in the way of hacking ;)
00:52.39mwesterWe have an SMS app now too?????
00:52.49abraxa_Yeah
00:52.50dashavooabraxa_, wicked, thanks :)
00:52.57mwesterbalrog-kun:  it would seem that you're correct on that!
00:53.07abraxa_http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/cad4520c3161687ebd79dfbd251e2d86.png suggests that it's working as well ;)
00:53.11Kerobut I'm not rich enough to pay a salary...
00:53.20mwesterOk, I'll go away now for another couple of weeks, and the phone should be done by then, right?
00:53.44Kerohehe
00:53.49balrog-kunby extrapolation, yes
00:54.03abraxa_mwester: Buh-bye :)
00:54.14mwesterToodle-oo! ;)
00:54.27abraxa_Oh gawd
00:54.32abraxa_Are you from .nz?
00:55.14Writchiewow - both of the people that live in nz in the same chat ;)
00:56.27mwesterWho - me?  I'm from Chicago - where the center of the universe *really* is.  :P
00:57.15mwester~blame Chicago
00:57.16aptACTION blames Chicago (and Canada) for all the evil in the world
00:57.47mwesterAnd from Canada before that, where they threw me out for causing so much evil.
01:00.04abraxa_Next thing you know - you're gone and we are all using e.
01:00.20balrog-kunif you do that too often we will have 2.6.25 before Linus even releases it
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01:05.59chillywillyhello moko
01:06.29chillywillyso when can I get a GTA02 ;)?
01:06.38chillywillyIt's December now ;)
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01:10.27kaizoI love to know too! I cant wait, does anybody know for sure the retail price of GTA02??
01:13.35CIA-23openmoko: 03sameo * r3610 10/developers/sameo/patches/ar6k-atheros/ (8 files):
01:13.35CIA-23openmoko: ar6k-atheros: DMA support.
01:13.35CIA-23openmoko: We now use DMA for all IO xfers.
01:13.35CIA-23openmoko: The udelay bug is now fixed as well: We are missing a RSPFIN interrupt
01:13.35CIA-23openmoko: and getting an RFDET/TXDET one instead.
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02:04.56DaSkreechHello
02:05.10DaSkreechis there a spec for pictographs on Openmoko?
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02:35.43readonwhen i build with gtk+-directfb it report No buildable providers available for required build target gtkfb-image ('['gtk+-directfb', 'pango-directfb']')
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03:01.43DaSkreechwrong time of day?
03:01.44DaSkreech:)
03:01.47DaSkreechquiet
03:02.52ewonmost people are in europe
03:03.02ewonI'm on the west coast of the US
03:03.18DaSkreechOK
03:03.31DaSkreechIs there a pictograph spec in openmoko?
03:04.04Kerobut we're here, and awake, just not talking.
03:05.43DaSkreechOk :)
03:06.02DaSkreechwhat's the wiki page for wishlists so I can peruse and see if it was added
03:07.40DaSkreechI was just hearing about a method to have a phone locked by a pictograpgh instead of a PIN which I thought should probably be looked at for openmoko
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03:28.10daMaestroScaredyCat, ping
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05:05.44daMaestroScaredyCat, ping
05:06.19daMaestrounrelated: anyone know how to make the /etc/resolv.conf not reset?
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05:57.54daMaestrothe new lock screen is awesome
06:00.57CM:)
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06:58.46CMWeb 2.0 humor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi4fzvQ6I-o
07:03.01ahvenok, this is really weird
07:03.31ahvenNeo was totally switched off, yet the sim card was active - I could hear it ring from my other phone!
07:04.28ahvenI could hear the sounds from my speaker, that an incoming call is coming to a device nearby
07:04.55CMNo, that's not so weird..
07:05.14CMThere's something broken with the shutdown, or at least it used to be. Not sure if it's fixed already
07:05.25joschCM, it's not :-(
07:05.34ewonheh
07:05.37CMEarlier at least, when you powered off the Neo, the gsm modem was not turned off correctly
07:05.45CMAnd it will drain your battery :(
07:05.45ahventhats new to me
07:05.59joschahven, your phone wasn't switched off completely - you have to remove the battery for a few seconds to do so
07:06.06ahveno
07:06.07CMYou need to take the battery out ~a minute
07:06.09ahven+k
07:06.48CMjosch: Yeah, seconds is right, but 1 min + 1h charge to get it back running seems to be easier for people to remember ;)
07:07.02joschCM, right ^^
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07:07.43CMmwester had some script that powered off the gsm, wonder why it's not used..
07:09.25joschbut even if gsm is turned off - there is still the audio chip remaining :-/
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07:22.01atulHi, when I update build 2007.2 using make update it will gives me error like mtn: misuse: database /home/qvantel/moko/OE.mtn is laid out according to an old schema
07:22.02atulmtn: misuse: try 'mtn db migrate' to upgrade
07:22.02atulmtn: misuse: (this is irreversible; you may want to make a backup copy first)
07:22.02atulmtn: misuse: database /home/qvantel/moko/OE.mtn is laid out according to an old schema
07:22.02atulmtn: misuse: try 'mtn db migrate' to upgrade
07:22.03atulmtn: misuse: (this is irreversible; you may want to make a backup copy first)
07:22.05atulmake: *** [update-mtn] Error 1
07:23.44atulCM, Any Idia
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07:24.12CMatul: Did you try to migrate?
07:24.13CM:)
07:24.49CMatul: You might have to use mtn --db OE.mtn db migrate
07:24.58CMHave you updated monotone?
07:25.04atulcm, No
07:25.27atulCM, I dont have any idea about how to migrate
07:25.37CMJust run that command :)
07:25.52CMBut if I remember correctly it's fairly slow..
07:25.52atulCM, ok am trying
07:26.03atulCM, Lets see
07:27.00atulCM, It seems very slow you are right
07:27.30CMMaybe better to download a new OE.mtn from openembedded?
07:29.57atulcm, how to download it ?
07:30.54CMatul: wget http://downloads.openmoko.org/OE/snapshots/OE.mtn.bz2 :)
07:31.11atulCM, Thanks
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07:34.20blindcodermoin
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07:39.33joschdo also non-germans say "moin" for goof morning or what??
07:39.44josch<PROTECTED>
07:40.24blindcoderonly if you repeat it often enough ;)
07:40.52CMblindcoder: It sounds finnish to me ;)
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07:42.08joschI only know this word from nerthern germans living at the north sea :-D
07:42.19joschack... s/nerthern/northern/
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07:48.16atulCM, Is the new build is working fine did you have any idea ?
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07:49.13CMYou mean the 2007.11 image?
07:49.57CMI've not been able to test myself yet, but I've heard there's a problem with pin codes in the dialer in it
07:50.03CMThat have been fixed in later images
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07:53.38atulCM, Not mean that i mean to say build 2007.2 is working fine or not means i am able to download it or not ?
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07:54.23ahvenhehe
07:55.07NineXi deed someone with debugboard from Poland
07:55.12ahvenCM: just wanted to ask about the pin codes :P
07:55.30NineXs/deed/need/
07:55.32joustonNineX: You didn't got the FPC for debug board?
07:55.39ahvensometimes it works ok, sometimes it creates 4-5 requests
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07:56.39joschahven, +1 to this bug
07:57.02ahvenbut if it is fixed in the later images, then all is well
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07:58.41ahvenand once it started ringing just when I unlocked the screen - and no incoming call window
07:58.48joschare sed regexes PCRE compliant? it seems not
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08:03.40CMNineX: There are some boards in Poland, but I'm not sure where
08:04.02NineXCM:  i will speek with hrw
08:04.07CM:)
08:04.16NineXi have 2 phones bricked right now
08:04.37CMOuch, how did that happen?
08:04.47CMSure it's not just drained batteries?
08:05.01NineXCM: i'm sure
08:05.34CM:(
08:05.44CMFlashed bad uboots on both?
08:09.41NineXCM: 1 phone is from my friend
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08:45.06ScaredyCatgneeeh!
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09:21.33atulCM, Now i get this error, mtn: error: database /home/qvantel/moko/OE.mtn lacks some cached data
09:21.33atulmtn: error: run 'mtn db regenerate_caches' to restore use of this database
09:21.33atulmtn: error: database /home/qvantel/moko/OE.mtn lacks some cached data
09:21.33atulmtn: error: run 'mtn db regenerate_caches' to restore use of this database
09:21.33atulmake: *** [update-mtn] Error 1
09:21.34atul<PROTECTED>
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09:23.41abraxa_atul: How about "mtn db regenerate_caches", as mtn suggests?
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09:24.56atulabrasx_, Yes I tried this command but it gives me error like atull@rautl-desktop:~/moko$ mtn db regenerate_caches
09:24.56atulmtn: regenerating cached rosters and heights
09:24.56atulmtn: misuse: no database specified
09:29.51ynezzatul: you have to specify db, something like --db
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09:30.04CMatul: --db OE.mtn
09:32.20atulCM, ok
09:32.30atulCM, it says command not found
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09:33.03CMThe full would of course be: mtn --db OE.mtn db regenerate_caches
09:33.24atulCM, thanks
09:39.34xcasexthere needs to be an opie image :>
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09:42.11xcasexis there an image w. qtopia & ipkg ?
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09:47.58hrwxcasex: ipkg for qtopia? what for?
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09:48.08hrwxcasex: they do not provide feeds
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09:49.57xcasexhrw: i think you misunderstand me :) ipkg for the shell and ssh access to the phone. i dont care much if the ipkg feeds are exposed via the gui :)
09:50.21hrwxcasex: ? can you explain more
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09:51.24xcasexhrw: alright i'll elaborate. ipkg does package management, right? i want ipkg on the moko, like i get when i run the stock moko, but i want to run qtopia. and the qtopia image seemingly lacks ipkg :)
09:52.11CMYou want to install programs using ipkg, basically?
09:52.33hrwxcasex: but what for you will use ipkg with qtopia?
09:52.46hrwxcasex: qtopia cames as images without feeds
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09:52.50ljpqtopia images have ipkg on them.
09:53.43xcasexCM: precisely
09:54.03xcasexljp: aaah thanks and i can access the moko via ssh as usual?
09:54.35CMxcasex: ScaredyCat builds current images if there's no new official snapshot out
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09:54.47xcasexCM: of qtopia
09:54.48xcasex?
09:54.54CMyers
09:54.54xcasexi know he does the moko ones
09:55.01xcasexawesome CM and theyre on?
09:55.38CMxcasex: Same folder, http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/
09:55.39abraxa_http://buildhost.automated.it
09:55.52CMLatest is from Nov 28th I think
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09:56.39xcasexty CM :D
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10:01.39ljpxcasex: the qtopia images are like the openmoko images but with qtopia :)
10:02.09xcasex:)
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10:03.24ljpso they are better :)
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10:05.03xcasexhow much of carsten heitzlers work has made it downstream?
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10:06.46CMljp: :P ;)
10:07.30CMxcasex: You mean to OpenMoko? The e libs are mostly there, but I don't think he's been allowed to work on anything moko specific yet
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10:10.24xcasexCM: oic. hmm did he get hired to do moko specific tasks or was he relegated to some other fic project?
10:11.43CMI think he said some other task right now, but I don't know the details
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10:14.27jeddy3good luck CM
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11:13.45hrwhttp://www.theunwired.net/?item=review-vodafone-lg-ks20-windows-mobile-smartphone - another nice formfactor ;(
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11:16.45ifeelI don't like it...
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11:29.27PBeckhi
11:33.09OJWhello PBeck
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11:36.27PBeckhallo OJW
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12:00.22ahvenhmm..about that gsm problem...if switch bt and gsm on and then hold down the power button until it forces it to shut down w/o going through the shutdown scripts, then the gsm & bt modules are still using power, while the rest of the device is powered off?
12:03.11cjb_iesounds like there's some power management ASIC somewhere that wants to be programmed
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12:30.13NineXi have question. if i fully erase nandflash, i found how to recreate bad block tables and reflash u-boot, but i don't found noting about splash. where i founs splash to put into nand ?
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12:34.08balrog-kunNineX: check out the openmoko/flash.sh sript in qemu-neo1973
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12:47.55LaF0rgeninex: loook at the download.sh and flash.sh of qemu-1973
12:48.04emdetehm, my neo dosn't charge anymore when usb is connected and linux is running (i mean it charges in u-boot with that menu entry from the wiki). how can i determine if it charges? the voltage is going down...
12:48.08LaF0rgeninex: it contains the url and the conveter command
12:48.30LaF0rgeemdete: it's documented on the kernel page, there is a sysfs entry 'chgmode' and 'state'
12:48.57emdetechgmode is 'idle'. state is <NULL> fast_enabled <NULL>
12:49.24emdetei started with voltage 4,2 or something, now its 3.7
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12:58.17emdeteLaF0rge: the kernel page says battemp is in centigrades. what's that? my shows 15... what would that be in celsius?
12:58.39cjb_iecentigrade = celsius
12:59.52emdete15 grad celsis? i dont think so :( the battery is more than hand-warm...
13:00.48emdetealso chgcur is 17127 while battemp is decline...
13:01.22cjb_iehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centigrade  redirects to Celsius
13:01.43emdetecjb_ie: thnx ;)
13:02.31emdetecjb_ie: but do you agree that 15 can't be?
13:03.06cjb_ie15 sounds pretty wrong alright
13:03.22emdetecjb_ie: agree. also 17127 is a little hight ;)
13:03.35cjb_iewhat's that meant to be, milliamps?
13:04.07emdetecjb_ie: as i understand the wiki, that makes 17.127 A?
13:04.16cjb_iebahaha
13:04.40ahvenhehe :)
13:04.42emdeteLaF0rge: any idea?
13:04.50ahven500mA max from usb
13:05.03ahvenas far as I know
13:05.23cjb_ieyup, that's right
13:05.28cjb_ieand 100mA without negotiation
13:05.29emdeteahven, cjb_ie what does your chgcur say?
13:05.46StarKnightAhven: spec is supposed to be that but I've found a few cases where it differs
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13:06.01emdeteanyway 17A can't ever be
13:06.03ahvendevice at home, currently at work
13:06.59leiladepends ... if its 17AH that would mean its roughly 1/4 of a normal car accu
13:07.15leilaseems somewhat overkill for a cellphone
13:07.19emdeteleila: we talk about 17A
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13:07.30opohi
13:07.31emdete...charging current
13:07.35olv--LaF0rge: all spi devices are gone under kernel 2.6.24-rc4
13:07.42leilaemdete, i see... like no way :)
13:07.55leilamaybe it uses a scale and it needs be calcualted ?
13:08.07emdetebut neo's kernel tells me so with a temp of 15 degree celsius...
13:08.38emdeteleila: the wiki states milliamperes
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13:09.11leilaok, my vote would be that its off :)
13:09.14ahven171mA?
13:09.24emdete17127mA == 17A
13:10.49emdeteLaF0rge: any idea?
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13:11.57infurnusdoes anybody have openmoko working on a treo 650?
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13:13.02NineXdam i forgot my notes . anyone remember me witch modules sholud be compiled into kernel to use debugboard v3 ?
13:18.02balrog-kunemdete: i think the 15 is hardcoded or something
13:18.07opoDoes anybody know when the orange neo is obtainable?
13:18.25balrog-kuniirc there was some bug in the temperature calcultion and they decided it was unneeded anyway
13:18.48opoi want the orange too :/
13:21.41opo:P
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13:29.53opouni bremen ;D
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14:06.31CIA-23openmoko: 03thomas * r3611 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/moko-gtk-engine/ (4 files in 3 dirs):
14:06.31CIA-23openmoko: * src/moko-draw.c: (moko_gradient):
14:06.31CIA-23openmoko: * src/moko-utils.c: (moko_shade_colour):
14:06.31CIA-23openmoko: Change how shading operates to allow shading up from black.
14:06.31CIA-23openmoko: * data/gtk-2.0/gtkrc:
14:06.33CIA-23openmoko: Change the default fg colour to black (used as bg colour in some
14:06.37CIA-23openmoko: widgets, e.g. toolbars)
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14:09.42erpoHi all. I'm going to need a reliable GSM phone that lets me make and receive calls by the 15th of January. I don't need any other features. I would really like to spend my money on a neo1973, but in the event that it still doesn't meet my needs by then, what do you all recommend? Ideally, I'd like to support open hardware with my dollars.
14:10.10hrwerpo: just make/receive calls?
14:10.30erpohrw: Yeah. That's all I need. I don't need scheduler apps or SMS or anything like that.
14:10.42erpohrw: I want those things, but they aren't hard requirements.
14:10.42hrwI would grab something lowend like nokia 1600/2300/3200
14:11.28ahvenyeah, it's still a developer board :)
14:11.48hrwgta02 will be devboard too
14:12.16zashnokia 3310 ftw :D
14:12.35ahvenwhat about qtopia?
14:12.48ahvenon the neo1973
14:13.12hrwI am not fan of Qtopia so will not tell
14:15.23ahvenIn summary, Qtopia on the Neo1973 is much closer to being ready than OpenMoko as of this writing. However, sound and suspend support prevent it from being at all useful as a cell phone (as a landline that doesn't ring but instead vibrates, it works ok).
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14:29.50OJWerpo: you can get a reliable gsm phone for making calls for like $20 (then have more money left over for when a smartphone comes along that you like)
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14:31.38erpoOJW, hrw : I was hoping not to have to spend money on a closed phone, but your suggestions seem to make the most sense.
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14:34.32xcasexhmmm. i could put /usr on the card
14:34.35xcasexHmm.
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14:36.53OJWerpo: or don't spend money at all, just get the old phone from someone who just bought a new one
14:37.25opo|awayerpo i have the nokia 6100
14:37.29opo|awaythats very nice
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14:38.17erpoI don't know anyone with an old GSM phone. I'll be moving to an area I've only visited before, and the only reliable cell service there is GSM. They have CDMA too, but it sucks.
14:38.20zashWhy do all phones suck nowdays?
14:38.24opo|awaysmall andindestructible
14:38.27opo|away;D
14:38.58buznokia 1110 go for 15EUR here
14:39.01zashopo|away: my 6+ yrs old 3310 seems to be indestructible too
14:39.08opo|awayof course
14:39.10opo|away:)
14:39.17opo|awayold nokia rules
14:39.25opo|away5110
14:39.26opo|away;D
14:39.43XorAzash: I threw my 3330 across the room in a rage once. I found all the little plastic bits, put them back together and the bloody thing still worked
14:39.44erpozash: Probably because cost and coverage are how consumers pick cell service, so they get hosed on everything else.
14:39.57opo|awayi open my beer with my handy
14:39.59XorAV500 broke though with only minor abuse
14:40.12zasherpo: or exterior design
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14:41.00erpozash: I don't think most people are quite that shallow. People can be remarkably sensible when it comes to saving money.
14:41.01dtxWill I get kicked if I say: android?
14:41.13mwesterYes.
14:41.13*** mode/#openmoko [+o mickeyl] by ChanServ
14:41.28mickeyljust kidding
14:41.30erpoWhat's wrong with android? Everything I've heard about it sounds pretty good.
14:41.31rip__what about NokiaN800
14:41.32rip__;)
14:41.32*** mode/#openmoko [-o mickeyl] by ChanServ
14:41.44mickeylyep it's da bomb
14:41.51mwesterN800 is a fabulous device.  But it's not a phone, is it?
14:41.54zasherpo: one word: girls
14:41.55mickeylfinally a unified platform for application developers
14:42.03dtxbased on java
14:42.07dtxkinda
14:42.10mickeylit's not open, but most people won't care
14:42.12dtxa java based platform
14:42.16dtxIt is open
14:42.20mickeylnope
14:42.21erpoWait, I thought it was open.
14:42.28dtxYou can get the source right now
14:42.31mwesterIt's java.  Cobol for the new century.
14:42.31mickeylnope
14:42.39dtx??
14:42.48mickeylshow me
14:43.09borg_dtx: you can get the source for things that they have to make open
14:43.23borg_but not for the jvm itself i.e.
14:43.38zashthere is no jvm
14:43.49mickeyldvm
14:43.55borg_yes, whatever ;)
14:44.08dtxi.e. the libs?
14:44.32dtxI haven't done java stuff in ages so bear with me
14:44.38xcasexScaredyCat: re
14:44.55dtxSo the virtual machine isn't open AND the libs aren't open?
14:44.58dtxSo what is open?
14:45.06dtxI thought it was all going to be BSD licensed
14:45.22borg_dtx: yes, thats what they say
14:45.26borg_"going to be"
14:45.26xcasexwhy do we even care about android aside from branding?
14:45.35mickeyldunno someone mentioned it
14:45.38mickeyl:D
14:45.38dtxportability
14:45.45xcasexportability my ass.
14:45.53xcasexwrite good code and it'll be portable
14:45.55dtxpseudo portability
14:46.02dtxindeed
14:46.07dtxcommon platform
14:46.10*** join/#openmoko bedboi (n=bedboi@dre84.lss.supelec.fr)
14:46.23dtxhonestly I wish they would've just gone with this project and thrown some money behind it
14:46.41dtxI would much rather have a platform with native apps than have to run a JVM/JIT
14:46.46StarKnightWasn't that tried with j2me - it only sort of worked
14:47.00xcasexScaredyCat: could you queue up a new qtopia build w. cruxus ?
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14:49.27StarKnightDtx: I only agree with that cause native apps should run faster then on a vm and til mobiles have multicores or more speed its the only benifit
14:50.08dtxme too
14:50.50dtxI do have to admit that Java has a hell of a set of OSS libs though
14:50.56dtxin Apache Jakarta or whatever
14:51.00StarKnightAny chance someones looking @ those new dualcore arm chips I heard about
14:52.16StarKnightOr better yet a company that's licesnced the technology
14:53.57*** join/#openmoko tonyg (n=tonyg@91.84.108.223)
14:54.42StarKnightActually I was thinking from a multitasking perspective
14:54.55dtxSo to put Android on a device do you have to get a license from Google?
14:54.56mwesterThe single cpu is more than adequate
14:55.18dtxI would assume so since its not all open source and there are so many chipsets it would have to run on
14:55.20dtxWell
14:55.24dtxyeah I guess
14:55.39StarKnightI'm listening to music, reading a website, on multichat client, and irc @ this moment on my phone
14:55.42mwesterIn fact, the only way to have reasonable battery life is if the CPU runs in short bursts and sleeps in between -- the less work it does, the longer the battery lasts.
14:56.01mwesterStarKnight:  Yep, and still the CPU is probably mostly idel.
14:56.05mwesterer, idle
14:56.32StarKnightProbably true memory latency then
14:56.42StarKnightWe need faster memory
14:59.07StarKnightThough doesn't a multicore system allow you to switch between programs with less noticeable overhead
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15:01.36StarKnightCorrect me if I'm wrong - not a computer major
15:02.14StarKnightI understand a little about the penalty when switching threads but that's about it
15:03.20tonygStarKnight, do you mean human-noticeable overhead? At the machine level it makes a small difference, but not in a useful way. IIUC.
15:03.27StephmwStarKnight: it's not you specifically... it's overbroad statements regarding any one solution... I've had many discussions in the past based around correcting assumptions with my commercial experience - but those sap my will to have many of them
15:04.16CIA-23openmoko: 03thomas * r3612 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/moko-gtk-engine/ (ChangeLog src/moko-draw.c):
15:04.16CIA-23openmoko: * src/moko-draw.c: (moko_draw_vline), (moko_draw_hline),
15:04.16CIA-23openmoko: (moko_draw_style_class_init):
15:04.16CIA-23openmoko: Add hline and vline functions, but don't actually draw anything
15:04.42tonygSo, is anyone here using a Neo as their day-to-day phone yet?
15:04.44StarKnightAnd yes I was refering to human noticeable overhead
15:05.10tonygStarKnight, in that case it will have no noticeable effect on program switching to be multicore or not. Assuming the software isn't totally appalling, of course :)
15:07.05StarKnightSo on my current phone or even my computer when I switch between my apps the wait cursur is because? Memory?
15:07.16tonygBecause the software is poorly written.
15:07.55tonygDon't get me wrong -- on current mainstream systems it's often impossible to write high-quality UI software.
15:07.59tonyg(practically speaking)
15:08.29tonygIt will take an entirely new kind of system to change things. Mobile computers (cellphones) might be it.
15:08.59StarKnightSo on a technical lvl what causes that?
15:09.14Stephmwrushed software
15:09.27Stephmwlazy coders... bad coders... the problem is human
15:09.34*** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@p508DA2F2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
15:09.59StarKnightI was thinking like code that doesn't execute properly and causes faults or cashe misses
15:10.11tonygIf you're interested in the topic, you may find http://www.vpri.org/html/work/ifnct.htm and in particular http://www.vpri.org/pdf/NSF_prop_RN-2006-002.pdf interesting
15:10.36StephmwStarKnight: right - but those can be addressed if the coder has enough time/will to do so
15:10.42tonygThe problem is definitely human, but not something an individual can solve within the system, IMO
15:11.00tonygSo cellphones offer an opportunity for revolution :-)
15:11.02StephmwStarKnight: development times in the embedded software world are incredibly rushed and *sales driven*
15:11.09tonyg(as does Ian Piumarta's COLA project)
15:11.13StephmwStarKnight: so as tonyg says, it's the system at fault
15:11.16StarKnightSo like say with the api then?
15:11.29tonygSpecifically, the *economy* we operate within.
15:11.35Stephmwtonyg: fair point
15:11.52tonygGiven time, people would be able to "collapse the software stack", and work in a small, comprehensible system
15:12.00*** join/#openmoko jeffdameth (n=jeff@dyndsl-091-096-043-102.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
15:12.04tonygSince noone's given time, the stack keeps growing taller and dirtier...
15:12.34*** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com)
15:12.39StarKnightSo its starts with how the OS handles the hw and moves up from there
15:12.52StephmwStarKnight: the hardware suffers from the same rushing
15:12.53tonygStarKnight, exactly
15:13.30tonygI'm starting to think Chuck Moore wasn't completely wrong when he said that the software problem was solved... by FORTH ;-)
15:13.38Stephmwhaha
15:14.15tonygI've been building an openmoko userland over the past week or so in Erlang, and it's amazing what a good choice of language working very close to the hardware (or in my case, the kernel) can accomplish
15:14.28xcasexStarKnight: which phone is it you're using
15:14.35StarKnightSo wouldn't the quickest and easiest way to handle the problem be to remove the OS and have the program directly interface the hw
15:14.40tonygStarKnight, yes.
15:14.41Stephmwtonyg: any plans on attending FOSDEM?
15:14.43StarKnightBlackberry 8100
15:14.59AVeeStarKnight: Back to assemblers then?
15:15.18tonygStephmw, hadn't considered it... maybe?
15:15.22erpoHow about DOS?
15:15.24StarKnightWell it works on my picmicros
15:15.28zasherpo: EEEK
15:15.55Stephmwtonyg: I'm planning an informal, mini-presentation on the realities of the embedded/mobile development world ;)
15:16.01tonygexcellent
15:16.05StarKnightI understand why there is an OS and api though so everyone doesn't need to write the same thing and simplify coding
15:16.09zedstartony btw do u know about mobile monday in london? the other week somebody gave an erlang talk
15:16.20tonygStephmw, that'd be a good thing for the first london openmoko UG too
15:16.23Stephmwzedstar: I've been meaning to attend those ;)
15:16.26*** join/#openmoko bassinboywk (n=Jared@205.196.178.27)
15:16.30Stephmwtonyg: when's that planned for?
15:16.34tonygno plan yet
15:16.40tonygsometime after the GTA02 release?
15:16.43Stephmwhaha
15:16.47tonygso, the new year, practically
15:16.48zedstarstephmw i just signed up but last one was on voice which didnt interest me but will go soon if good topic
15:16.48tonyguh
15:16.53tonygunless there's something I don't know?
15:16.57bassinboywkis there a date set for a non-dev edition?
15:17.08tonygzedstar, I was at that momo
15:17.10Stephmwtonyg: no, I'm just cautious about release dates
15:17.19tonygStephmw, commendable conservatism ;)
15:17.36Stephmwtonyg: problem with momo is that it clashes with my climbing nights
15:17.52zedstartonyg how was it are they worth going?
15:17.56tonygIt wasn't a very technical crowd
15:18.03zedstarit is just down the road from me
15:18.10tonygI'm not sure. Unless there's a topic of particular interest... dunno.
15:18.27tonygIf I hadn't been coming down with a cold I'd probably have got more out of the mingling after the talks
15:19.02StephmwXorA: I'm pretty sure they have my drive imaged by now :)
15:19.03zedstaryeh chatting to interesting people appeals to me
15:19.16Stephmwzedstar: you could also sign up for the Google Dev Jams
15:19.21StarKnightStephwm or Tonyg whoever posted the links earlier could you email them to starknight83@Gmail.com I would greatly appreciate it (they already dropped from my clients history)
15:19.33erpobassinboywk: No.
15:19.38zedstarstephmw yeh i need to do this i missed last one it was full quickly
15:19.51Stephmwzedstar: the mailing list gets first dibs
15:19.57erpobassinboywk: Originally I thought it was last October, but all references to that seem to have been erased.
15:20.02zedstara thanks for the tip
15:20.05Stephmwzedstar: I didn't end up going - was hurting too much ;)
15:20.20tonygStarKnight, done
15:20.24zedstarnot a huge google fan tho ;)
15:20.26StarKnightTy
15:20.38Stephmwzedstar: likewise - but hey, it's free pizza
15:21.09zedstaryeh....i did manage to get a free drink out of some google recruitment drone after that future of mobile event
15:23.25bassinboywkerpo: strange, huh?
15:23.58Stephmwzedstar: indian lady?
15:24.05zedstarstephw yeh she was
15:24.13Stephmwzedstar: I know her - very smart
15:24.31Stephmwzedstar: didn't manage to hook up with her at that conf
15:24.38erpobassinboywk: Yeah, it's disappointing. But at some point you have to choose an interim solution and just check in every couple of months to see if it's finished.
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15:25.06zedstari didnt realise she was from google when i was bitching about android.....should have read her t-shirt with google written all over it
15:25.24Stephmwbwahaha
15:26.01StephmwI met up with another friend and we ended up having lunch on the southbank instead of IMAX
15:26.32zedstarthe free bar finished very quickly
15:27.22Stephmwzedstar, tonyg, what do you work on? mobile?
15:28.15zedstari work on mobile on my personal projects but work as a programming drone for an isp for cash
15:29.38zedstarand yourself stephmw?
15:30.08StephmwI'm an embedded software engineer... so I piss lines for phones ;) manufacturers, operators, etc
15:30.21StephmwC/J2ME/J2SE
15:30.47*** join/#openmoko hexa (n=hexa@67.70.246.100)
15:30.52zedstaru working in london also?
15:31.33Stephmwyup
15:31.43Stephmwdepending on contract, of course
15:31.53*** join/#openmoko christian_ (n=christia@p549896BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
15:31.58Stephmwcurrently cooling my heels at consultancy HQ waiting for the next contract to start
15:32.14zedstarwherabouts in london?
15:32.27Stephmwand I tells ya... reviewing CVs for technical content is... worse than pissing lines
15:32.37Stephmwzedstar: Waterloo/Vauxhall
15:32.58Stephmwyou?
15:33.05zedstarah ok......going there today for christmas party....im in holborn
15:33.22Stephmwoh, not far at all then ;)
15:33.37StephmwI'm heading to Manor House later for my regular climbing session
15:33.56zedstarnot far....going to some gaming place... http://www.namcostation.co.uk/ u know it? not been before
15:34.00*** part/#openmoko infurnus (n=infurnus@ip68-0-95-123.tu.ok.cox.net)
15:35.52Stephmwhaha, yeah :)
15:35.59Stephmwhaven't been there yet though
15:36.06christian_hi guys, just a question: is anybody here using the Neo as his every-day-phone?
15:36.10*** join/#openmoko mmp (n=mmp@158.195.96.206)
15:36.14zedstarfree drink and dodgem cars apparently
15:37.52christian_???
15:38.43opochristian_: german?
15:38.48*** join/#openmoko heikkit (n=chatzill@c-67-188-122-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
15:38.49christian_Or in other different words: is there a chance that it will be suitable for every day use by the end of febraury
15:38.53christian_yes
15:38.56oponaja
15:39.04opoich benutz es nicht als alltagsgerät
15:39.07opohab nen zweites
15:39.09opo^^
15:39.19opokannst natürlich telefonieren und sowas
15:39.34christian_geht das jetzt schon zuverlässig?
15:39.43opowarte noch nen bißchen wenn du nicht programmieren kannst
15:39.47*** join/#openmoko TAsn (n=TAsn@89.1.132.181.dynamic.barak-online.net)
15:40.07christian_ist nicht so das ich mir jetzt des gta01 kaufen will, will nur wissen wie die entwicklung so voranschreitet
15:40.42opoja es werden immer neue projekte gestartet
15:41.13opoalso nen halbes jahr denk ich mal dann isses für den normalverbraucher nutzbar
15:41.22christian_ja das hab ich auch gesehen, aber ich hab fast das gefühl das viele von denen im sand verlaufen
15:41.33opojo...
15:41.54opokann man halt bei opensource nicht so pauschal sagen wanns fertig ist
15:42.03opoalso jetzt würde ich es nicht im alltag nutzen
15:42.10christian_wie siehts mit na gps navigation aus? Weiste ob sich da was tut?
15:42.18opojo is in arbeit
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15:42.23Fatalmit spritzefranz alles macht spass und fünf kartoffel
15:42.34opone alpha version steht glaub ich shcon
15:42.35tonygStephmw, I work for lshift.net; openmoko is a personal project, really
15:42.35xcasexROFL
15:43.27xcasexkanst ich spritze aus ehren bösen mit meine grosse schvanze? (can i have a burger to go please, no, really ;) )
15:43.30tonygchristian_, I'm very close to having it in a state where it could be my daily phone
15:43.37Stephmwtonyg: that's no shame - I didn't start out in mobiles
15:43.39tonygI just need to improve the battery lifetime
15:44.05christian_und weil des display ja doch kleiner ist als beim iphone: kann man da noch gescheit tippen?
15:44.13Stephmwtonyg: last good place I worked at did software for network root-cause-analysis
15:44.19Fatalchristian_: wahre arbeit, wahre sauerkraut
15:44.26erpotonyg: So you can make and receive calls without using the command line?
15:45.42tonygerpo, yeah, but I'm using my own userland
15:45.58erpotonyg: Ah. :(
15:46.04tonygthe openmoko build, plus some packages on top of the standard kernel
15:46.13erpotonyg: How's the battery life as it stands?
15:46.18tonygessentially my own replacements for neod, gsmd and dialer
15:46.26tonygerpo, with the stock userland, I don't know
15:46.32tonygwith mine, it's about 5-6 hours
15:46.43erpotonyg: Standby time or talk time?
15:46.45tonygthere are *big* wins to be made in power management
15:46.47tonygstandby :(
15:47.02erpotonyg: If you can double that, I'll buy an openmoko to replace the phone I have now.
15:47.16tonygyeah, doubling it is my target for my own personal use
15:47.19tonyg(really, 8h would do)
15:47.25erpotonyg: I get 12 hours standby time and that's if I don't talk at all.
15:47.57tonygI've written a tiny amount about my userland on my wiki page, btw http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:TonyGarnockJones
15:48.18christian_tonyg: what do you mean by "very close"? could you tell what is already working and what does not?
15:48.51erpotonyg: Do you think your code will get folded back into openmoko? Or is this just for fun?
15:48.57tonygchristian_, power management is the big issue. I have some (horrible) UI for SMS send/recv, dialer, addressbook cooked up
15:49.06tonygerpo, just for fun.
15:49.12tonygwell, for my own personal use perhaps more.
15:49.51*** join/#openmoko omegai (n=omegai@ool-4b7fb52a.static.optonline.net)
15:49.54erpotonyg: What's the underlying widget set? GTK+?
15:49.54*** join/#openmoko mindCrime (n=chatzill@66.83.208.218.nw.nuvox.net)
15:50.09tonygyes. It's erlang, using erlang's "gtknode" to do the gui
15:50.38tonygignore the gui, it's just something I threw together atop the REPL-based application core
15:50.44*** join/#openmoko Pupeno- (n=Pupeno@dsl-37-170.dsl.netsource.ie)
15:50.46zedstaris erlang purely functional?
15:50.54tonygzedstar, no
15:50.57tonygwell, kind of :)
15:51.01tonygmostly?
15:51.07*** join/#openmoko mbuf (n=mbuf@121.246.172.117)
15:51.12zedstarah ok good
15:51.20*** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@132.213.238.4)
15:51.21tonygit's applicative-order, with IO effects and very restricted mutable state
15:51.25tonygand communication primitives, of course
15:51.56zedstarthing i like about erlang is its ASN.1 encoding stuff
15:52.03tonygzedstar, yes that's cool
15:52.09tonygnot needed for this project tho :)
15:52.19zedstari wrote my own packed encoding rules stuff was pain
15:52.41tonygPER is a pain indeed. I'm puzzled as to why BER has fallen out of fashion, though
15:52.50tonygPerhaps it was just that ASN.1 was such an arcane *concrete* language
15:52.55zedstartoo verbose ;)
15:53.04tonygBER? or ASN.1?
15:53.07zedstarBER
15:53.18*** part/#openmoko dtx (n=dtx@67.67.3.3)
15:53.19*** join/#openmoko ahven (n=kala@194.126.113.157)
15:53.20tonyginteresting. To me, its verbosity is a win...
15:53.26tonygTLV = pleasant
15:53.54tonygbbl
15:54.36christian_Yet another question guys: will there be an integrated IM capable of handling multiple protocols (icq, msn, jabber, maybe Skype (I know its not open source))
15:55.16abraxa_christian_: Skype is a definite no, others could be implemented using libpurple or jabber, of course
15:56.05Robot101Telepathy
15:56.13Robot101will do all of those, except Skype :)
15:56.29Robot101nice UI-independent API, designed for embedded devices
15:56.39christian_abraxa_: is the "no" due to the politics of openmoko or because of some dependencies?
15:56.50_diego_skype is undocumented, and worse, the use trick just to avoid to be disclosed
15:57.08_diego_s/the/they
15:57.18Robot101s/nf/ng/
15:57.23Robot101christian_: unless Skype themselves do a port onto the platform, there's no way to do it
15:57.33Robot101even the N800 Skype client checks its running on N800 hardware
15:57.33abraxa_christian_: As _diego_ said, it's proprietary, majorly protected against reverse engineering and there's no binary blob for ARM
15:58.05*** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@X1bc0.x.pppool.de)
15:58.20christian_ok I see. what a shame...
15:59.04christian_would it even work to use Voip via GSM?
15:59.36WritchieVerizon sued over GPL violations on BusyBox
15:59.58_diego_christian_: it should be possible
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16:00.38christian__diego_: thanks
16:00.40_diego_but with low quality, probably
16:01.29_diego_i expect 0.5 second (at least) of lag
16:01.58christian__diego_: what would you say. Its unlikely that GTA02 will be released until febrauary, isn't it?
16:02.27_diego_i think so
16:03.04_diego_(but i'm not more informed of anyother person reading planet.openmoko.org ^^)
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16:15.41DaSkreechHello
16:15.48opohey
16:15.59DaSkreechI was asking yesterday if anyone knows about a pictograph spec for openmoko?
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16:21.47DaSkreechor at least a link to the wishlist so I can peruse and see if it's been suggested already :)
16:24.16mbufWritchie, any specific reasons why they choose the TI calypso chip?
16:24.26*** join/#openmoko Robwoerle (n=bob@M83fd.m.pppool.de)
16:24.30_diego_DaSkreech, look at wiki.openmoko.org
16:26.27ScaredyCatiirc it's not the chip that's at fault...
16:26.35ScaredyCatit's the wiring of it in the neo..
16:27.17thomasgrueblerhello. is the gta02 already running on qemu?
16:27.24mbufScaredyCat, also, the calypso project came to a point where TI, Bangalore was about to scrap it
16:27.29thomasgrueblerwith the moko makefile
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16:28.29Writchiembuf: the calypso has a rather complete and mostly standard compliant mux.
16:28.36mbufWritchie, ok
16:28.58Writchieso it's probably the pinnacle of an open radio ATM
16:29.57Writchiei.e. for GSM/GPRS non-edge
16:30.00DaSkreech_diego_: Wow that's a lotta wishes :)
16:30.40CIA-23openmoko: 03andrew * r3613 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/ (7 files in 2 dirs): Quick sync with upstream changes.
16:30.48CIA-23openmoko: 03andrew * r3614 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/openmoko/ (README linux-gta02-pseudo.patch): Provide a kernel for the pseudo GTA02 board and a README.
16:32.19abraxa__thomasgruebler: balrog-kun could answer that but from what I know some of the new hardware is not being emulated yet
16:32.40thomasgrueblerbut can i boot it?
16:32.50thomasgrueblerbecause some weeks ago it wasn't possible
16:32.59balrog-kunright, gta02 is not emulated
16:33.00thomasgrueblerand some weeks befor some weeks it was also not possible
16:33.03balrog-kunthomasgruebler: boot what?
16:33.20thomasgrueblerboot the openmoko in qemu
16:33.28thomasgrueblerto have the software/gui of gta02
16:33.53Vegarthe software is the same as for gta01
16:34.03balrog-kunthe software/gui is the same  on all devices running OpenMoko
16:34.07balrog-kunonly the kernel differs
16:34.54balrog-kunthe gta02 kernel probably won't run in current qemu as gta02 parts are not yet emulated, mostly
16:34.54thomasgrueblerok
16:35.17thomasgrueblerso when i compile now the environment the whole night, i can also use it for more than compiling
16:35.28*** join/#openmoko MichaelShiloh (n=chatzill@adsl-76-208-209-165.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
16:35.31thomasgrueblerbecause i don't have a neo yet
16:35.46balrog-kunyes, but we all know compiling is the best part of it
16:36.02balrog-kun;)
16:36.50thomasgruebler^^
16:37.23*** join/#openmoko smartbhai (n=smartbha@116.68.97.145)
16:38.44Sup3rkiddomwester: you use gentoo?
16:39.15*** join/#openmoko techindian (n=karthik@125.130.84.253)
16:39.18mwesterFedora.  I just rebuild openmoko and SlugOS regularly.
16:39.49Sup3rkiddoright..(silently takes note of "regularly")
16:39.52balrog-kuni'm sure that's be enough
16:39.56balrog-kuns/be//
16:40.05*** join/#openmoko orino (n=orino@84-74-193-114.dclient.hispeed.ch)
16:40.20*** join/#openmoko p0seid0n_ (n=poseidon@X4190.x.pppool.de)
16:40.56techindianhi, when i try to enable the usb slave with the latest version in QEMU I have getting the following error.  gadget_read: event error: 51
16:40.56techindians3c_udc_handle_packet: EP0 overrun
16:40.56techindiangadget_read: event error: 4
16:41.40techindianany reasons/suggestions?
16:42.42Sup3rkiddono idea, i thought it was my weirdly setup that was causing the problem..
16:43.43balrog-kunand it's not working i understand?
16:43.56balrog-kundid that change with some recent update?
16:43.57Sup3rkiddobalrog-kun: nope, usb0 isn't getting created
16:44.11*** join/#openmoko mboldisc (n=mike@c-66-41-225-167.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
16:44.25Sup3rkiddobalrog-kun: been like that for a long time, maybe about 4-5 weeks
16:45.00techindianbalrog-kun: hope the following dmesg output will help [ 1698.549230] dummy_udc dummy_udc: dequeued req efc2cc80 from ep-c, len 4096 buf ef607000
16:45.00techindian[ 1698.553223] dummy_udc dummy_udc: dequeued req efc2ca80 from ep-a, len 0 buf ef490be0
16:45.00techindian[ 1698.557217] dummy_udc dummy_udc: dequeued req efc2cc80 from ep-c, len 4096 buf ef607000
16:45.00techindian[ 1698.561210] dummy_udc dummy_udc: dequeued req efc2ca80 from ep-a, len 0 buf ef490be0
16:45.00techindian[ 1698.565205] dummy_udc dummy_udc: dequeued req efc2cc80 from ep-c, len 4096 buf ef607000
16:45.01techindian[ 1698.569198] dummy_udc dummy_udc: dequeued req efc2ca80 from ep-a, len 0 buf ef490be0
16:45.03techindian[ 1698.573192] dummy_udc dummy_udc: dequeued req efc2cc80 from ep-c, len 4096 buf ef607000
16:45.05techindian[ 1698.577186] dummy_udc dummy_udc: dequeued req efc2ca80 from ep-a, len 0 buf ef490be0
16:45.07*** part/#openmoko zedstar (n=john@sr-fw1.router.uk.clara.net)
16:45.09techindian[ 1698.581186] dummy_udc dummy_udc: dequeued req efc2cc80 from ep-c, len 4096 buf ef607000
16:45.11techindian[ 1698.585174] dummy_udc dummy_udc: dequeued req efc2ca80 from ep-a, len 0 buf ef490be0
16:46.53*** join/#openmoko pipe (n=foo@port-87-234-151-8.dynamic.qsc.de)
16:46.54Sup3rkiddobalrog-kun: just a hunch, but the gadgetfs.h header in the kernel had been moved some place from 2.6.22 or so...i had to bring the header from an older kernel to get it built...
16:47.08*** join/#openmoko rami_ (n=rami@87.109.22.210)
16:47.12balrog-kuntechindian: not really :p , but i'm seeing the same issue on mine
16:47.23techindian:)
16:47.24balrog-kuni'll try to do something with it later
16:47.43*** join/#openmoko mindCrime (n=chatzill@66.83.208.218.nw.nuvox.net)
16:47.48balrog-kunDec  7 18:48:38 [kernel] usb 3-1: can't set config #1, error -110
16:47.54Sup3rkiddobalrog-kun: oops, sorry udb_gadgetfs.h
16:48.46balrog-kunSup3rkiddo: but i hope "make" didn't error out when the header was missing?
16:49.09balrog-kun./configure should detect that and disable gadgetfs
16:49.13Sup3rkiddobalrog-kun: it did
16:49.32balrog-kunwere you rebuilding without re./configuring?
16:49.34ahvenbtw, are there any everyday-users of Neo-s GSM near?
16:49.56Sup3rkiddobalrog-kun: does, make clobber-qemu count..
16:50.09balrog-kunSup3rkiddo: oh, i don't know :p
16:50.28*** join/#openmoko jeddy3 (n=mattiast@gw.sbg.se)
16:50.34Sup3rkiddobalrog-kun: just to be sure, lemme remove that header, clean, and rebuild and pastebin the errors
16:50.36Sup3rkiddolol
16:51.03Sup3rkiddobut it was "undefined/undeclared/unitialized" sort of errors
16:51.35balrog-kunSup3rkiddo: ok, but i don't know if clean does reconfigure
16:51.44*** part/#openmoko stefan_schmidt (n=stefan@datenfreihafen.org)
16:52.02Sup3rkiddobalrog-kun: hmm..alright, i will reconfigure it then
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16:54.39ahven2 people, whom I have called, have complained of hearing themself from me, echo
16:55.27Writchieahven: this usually indicates your audio settings are messed up.
16:55.43Writchiealsa state files for handset
16:55.47Writchieor headset
16:55.54Writchiedepending on which you are using
16:55.57ahvenI haven't changed anything in that matter
16:56.01ahvenhandset
16:56.12ahvenlast public build
16:56.18*** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@p508DA2F2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
16:57.26Sup3rkiddobalrog-kun: ah, sorry i forgot...i had enabled gadgetfs support which was otherwise disabled...by modifying certain macros, i think otherwise it would have built correctly but without gadgetfs support
16:59.41balrog-kunSup3rkiddo: ok, cool
16:59.57balrog-kuni hope they stop constantly changing the usb header path soon
17:00.50*** join/#openmoko p0seid0n_ (n=poseidon@X4190.x.pppool.de)
17:01.19Sup3rkiddobalrog-kun:  yeah me too, i am still having a bad time searching around where they moved it...
17:03.01tonygScaredyCat, you said earlier that it was the wiring of the calypso in the neo that was a problem. Can you elaborate? Were you referring to the serial-console/GSM-modem switchover issues, or something to do with 07.10, or something else again...?
17:03.20tonygWake-on-GSM-event, for instance?
17:04.42techindianSup3rkiddo: now you are able to use the usb connection??
17:05.26Sup3rkiddotechindian: nope, got the same set of warnings/errors...btw you are from India?
17:05.36techindianhmm.
17:06.42Sup3rkiddohmm? is that a "yes" or a "no" :P
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17:06.57techindian:) yes..
17:07.36Sup3rkiddotechindian: me too :) thats why asked
17:08.11techindiangrt..
17:09.18Sup3rkiddohello
17:09.53techindianSup3rkiddo: update me if you find the solution. I will also try..
17:10.24ScaredyCattonyg: it was somehting to do with the chip being 1uad band but the current layout on the pcb only allowed the use of 3 ..
17:10.36ScaredyCathence the firmware would alow 850 + 2 other
17:10.37Sup3rkiddotechindian: sure...i think its the header, but btw, which kernel are you running on
17:11.06techindianubuntu 2.6.20.16
17:11.18tonygah, ok. So it was to do with the actual GSM-to-network featureset, rather than the interface-to-the-CPU side?
17:11.36tonygas in, it's perfectly *controllable* :-) just doesn't support 850?
17:12.16Sup3rkiddotechindian: ok no..atleast it built for you, newer kernels dont have the linux/usb_gadgetfs.h at the place where qemu searches for, fyi
17:13.09*** join/#openmoko Devestate (n=Devestat@75-129-169-149.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com)
17:13.45Writchietonyg: the RF out has only three LNA's, two for hi-bands (1800/1900) and one for low bands (850/900). In order to support both 850 and 900 a different type of filter component is required. 850 or 900 can be supported by changing filters of the same general type (and form factor).
17:14.00Writchies/RF out/RF in/
17:14.20tonygexperiment
17:14.24tonygs/periment/cellent/
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17:15.01Writchietonyg: true quadband chipsets have 4 LNA's - not three.
17:15.09tonygWritchie, right, that makes sense.
17:15.25tonygBeing UK based, it's of less relevance to me personally :)
17:16.18Writchiefor those marketing US is basically game-over until it is confirmed at least an 850/1800/1900 triband variant
17:16.32tonygThat's a shame.
17:18.15tonygoo, the gta02 will have a 400MHz CPU. What will that do to power consumption?
17:18.59*** join/#openmoko N-Mi (n=nicolas@calvix/staff/N-Mi)
17:19.07WritchieWiFi +400MHz + Graphics Accel will make it a hot potato ;)
17:19.17Writchiebut it has a larger battery
17:20.41AVeeAnd the CPU can be downclocked when the performance is not needed, I assume?
17:21.18tonygAVee, in theory. The current codebase for gta01 doesn't do so yet.
17:21.24WritchieAVee: in theory, ARM's are pretty much linear mW/mips
17:21.26*** join/#openmoko p0seid0n_ (n=poseidon@X4190.x.pppool.de)
17:22.04Writchiein theory tickless kernel should also help.
17:22.14tonygIt's just occurred to me to ask: by writing 0 into /sys/class/backlight/*/brightness, the display appears to switch off. Is it *actually* off? Is there an even more off state I can get to?
17:22.15Writchiebut you have to get basic PM working well first
17:23.53*** join/#openmoko faern (n=faern@faern.olf.sgsnet.se)
17:25.54*** join/#openmoko paguilar (n=paguilar@217.194.179.242)
17:26.02_diego_looks like there's no cpu freq scaling atm on neo
17:26.15*** join/#openmoko simon_ (n=simon@w208.wist.uni-linz.ac.at)
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17:26.38*** join/#openmoko SpeedEvil (n=mauve@212.159.7.165)
17:27.22abraxa___diego_: No, as it's difficult to implement and takes a significant amount of time to alter
17:27.28abraxa__alter the speed, I mean
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17:27.57tonygabraxa__, I had a look at the PDF spec for the CPU that is linked to from the wiki. I couldn't find the part where it talked about the pause for changing the PLL.
17:28.09tonygOr at least, it mentioned 150 microsecs, but that seems fast, not slow...
17:28.15SpeedEviltehre is no explicit spec
17:28.16tonygfast enough, anyway
17:28.28SpeedEvilbut yes, from memory that's the order of magnitude
17:29.03tonygIt's the kind of thing that could be done by some daemon at the time the display is dimmed. On the order of tens of seconds, or minutes apart.
17:29.25SpeedEviltonyg: have you seen the power managment nice things page I wrote on the wiki?
17:29.35tonygYes, that was a good page. The one with the tables?
17:29.49SpeedEvilyeah
17:30.07tonygbtw, SpeedEvil, you might be able to answer my question: "by writing 0 into /sys/class/backlight/*/brightness, the display appears to switch off. Is it *actually* off? Is there an even more off state I can get to?"
17:30.13SpeedEvilHasn't the kernel recently gon no;2~_hzx_?
17:30.24SpeedEvilgone to notick?
17:30.24_diego_abraxa__, that's a pitty. At least a 100Mhz mode it would be nice
17:30.43opo|awayciao
17:30.45SpeedEvilAs I understand it, that's wrong (abraxa)
17:30.57SpeedEvilyou can change the divisor on the fly.
17:31.04SpeedEviltonyg: keyboard noise.
17:31.11tonyg:)
17:31.25SpeedEviltonyg: the backlight is off.
17:31.29SpeedEvilhowever.
17:31.35tonygdamn. I was hoping for a big saving :)
17:31.39*** join/#openmoko emre_ (n=emre@81.215.38.96)
17:31.48SpeedEvilI think the display controller is still active, as is the LCM
17:31.51tonygaha
17:31.52tonygok
17:31.53abraxa__SpeedEvil: Yes, however LaF0rge said a couple days ago that other subsystems are affected in non-trivial ways (e.g. LCM)
17:31.54SpeedEvilthis is quite significant
17:31.57tonygand the controller draw?
17:32.23SpeedEvilabraxa__: as I understand it, that's not completely right - you can change the divisor  of the CPU only.
17:32.40*** join/#openmoko paguilar (n=paguilar@217.194.179.242)
17:32.42SpeedEvilwhich does not get the power savings that are possible.
17:32.49*** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@umm-yrless170.morris.umn.edu)
17:32.50SpeedEviltonyg: possibly quite significant.
17:32.54WritchieSpeedEvil: this glitch of GPIO's at power-off doesn't seem to make sense - the GPIO outputs are separately powered and maintained during the sleep mode. If the GPIO is sources from the parts that are powered down then yes they may glitch but not from hard GPIO states. If they all glitch this is a chipset problem not fixable without something like a CPLD between the wake-up sources and the mis-behaved SoC. Do you know any more about this
17:32.59_diego_abraxa__, on gp2x they do it in user space (changing cpu freq)
17:33.18abraxa__SpeedEvil: Okay, that can't comment on as I haven't read that part of the specs
17:33.20SpeedEviltonyg: it's not only the controller and the LCD, it's the RAM bandwidth
17:33.28tonygSpeedEvil, good observation
17:33.42SpeedEvilWritchie: hang on, I'll look at the schematics. /me remembers he has no schematics
17:33.44emre_hi folks, can someone help me about the openmoko projects developer svn access. DAV does not ask for password and SSH method says permission denied(public key).
17:33.48tonygso ideally, I'd set the backlight to 0 = off, and then tell the LCD controller to stop refreshing for a while
17:33.55Writchie;)
17:34.00*** join/#openmoko ckuethe (n=ckuethe@S0106000024c38a18.ed.shawcable.net)
17:34.19SpeedEviltonyg: yes - I seem to remember power benefits from killing  X
17:34.23SpeedEvilI need to check again.
17:34.30tonygexcellent. right. so that's a good clue.
17:34.44tonygis there an easy way to kill the display refresh? (too much to ask?)
17:34.45SpeedEvilAlso - going to 8 bit or mono mode will significantly reduce RAM power draw.
17:34.53tonygif not, where should I start learning in the kernel tree, or the patchsets?
17:34.54WritchieSDRAM cycle times is very big power factor
17:35.14*** join/#openmoko gabaug (n=gabe@24-136-31-88.mart-bsr1.chi-mart.il.cable.rcn.com)
17:35.16tonygI'm seeing 5-6 hours with GSM on, cpu more-or-less idle, and backlight=0
17:35.27tonygif I can get it to 8... or 10!... it's usable as my cellphone
17:35.28*** join/#openmoko paguilar (n=paguilar@217.194.179.242)
17:35.53SpeedEviltonyg: that's ballpark - you can get it to 8-12 by clocking the CPU to 100Mhz - see the wiki - and undervolting (arguably) the CPU
17:35.58Writchietonyg: the GSM chip is not going into gsm idle. This is a 40mw hit
17:36.03*** join/#openmoko bobesponja (n=bobespon@bas75-1-82-235-231-205.fbx.proxad.net)
17:36.18SpeedEvilthe previous version of the spec-sheet said that 1.8V at 100Mhz was just fine.
17:36.27tonygWritchie, with 5-6 hours I'm seeing something like 680mW, so 40mW is almost in the noise :)
17:36.28Writchiegsm idle takes you to 24 hrs
17:36.30SpeedEvilthis version doesn't mention that.
17:36.35gabaugdoing ipkg upgrade I get conflicts between libgsmd and gsmd -- do I need to remove gsmd?
17:36.47tonyg(that 680 is a BotE number, not a measurement)
17:37.11ahvenhmm, interesting
17:37.13*** join/#openmoko hhf423__ (n=chatzill@A706a.a.strato-dslnet.de)
17:37.16WritchieSleep mode should be 10mw to 50mw
17:37.19SpeedEvilI measured a minimum of about 90mA
17:37.19ahvenI was in a middle of ipkg update
17:37.21ahvenand reboot :)
17:37.23SpeedEvilat 4V or so
17:37.24gabaugconflicts between openmoko-session2 and openmoko-today2-folders with matchbox-common
17:37.26gabaugalso
17:37.29SpeedEvilat 100Mhz
17:37.31tonygSpeedEvil, how do I change the clock speed programmatically?
17:37.42tonygwill I need to hack on the kernel?
17:37.50SpeedEviltonyg: yues
17:37.50_diego_gabaug, it happened to me too....
17:37.54SpeedEvilor u-boot
17:37.55tonygor is there a /sys interface?... oh, ok. damn
17:37.56tonyg:)
17:38.04SpeedEvilit's an option to set it to 50/100 or so
17:38.07gabaug_diego_: did you find a solution?
17:38.18*** join/#openmoko pwerken (n=pwerken@83.119.198.36)
17:38.23_diego_gabaug, i suggest to install a new image ^^'
17:38.37SpeedEviltonyg: pretty much
17:38.40tonygok.
17:38.49_diego_gabaug, after forcing the install, a get stuck in splash screen
17:38.59_diego_s/ a / I
17:39.10SpeedEvilthere are probably hacks that are doable with one-two-liners of kernel code
17:39.28SpeedEvilto basically disable stuff without taking into account the existing drivers
17:39.43SpeedEvilthis would not actually resume for example, but would enable measurement
17:40.03tonyg(I need to buy a multimeter)
17:40.04*** join/#openmoko geaaru (n=geaaru@host178-223-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
17:40.13emre_hi folks, can someone help me about the openmoko projects developer svn access. DAV does not ask for password and SSH method says permission denied(public key).
17:40.21WritchieSpeedEvil: IIRC there are some better PM play hooks in later kernels
17:40.24tonyg(although I have to say, working just above the kernel/userland boundary suits me much better...)
17:40.46SpeedEvilWritchie: I haven;'t done much kernel code.
17:40.51tonygWritchie, not by any chance "later" meaning the november-build...? :)
17:40.58tonygor svn trunk
17:40.58Writchie23 or 24
17:41.49Writchiei'm getting ready to cross compile an out of tree kernel module now.
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17:42.40WritchieSpeedEvil: Me neither until just recently
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17:43.42WritchieSpeedEvil: from what I see interrupts are disabled for long periods of time all over the place.
17:43.50hhf423__tick
17:44.03WritchieI'm amazed this even works as an embedded device.
17:44.14tonyg:)
17:44.21tonygwhat's "lowlevel_foo"?
17:44.40Writchieu-boot startup stuff IIRC
17:45.05tonygwill I need it to flash a new u-boot, should I wish to do so?
17:45.16Writchiedo you have a debug board?
17:45.20tonygnope :)
17:45.40Writchiei wouldn't fool with u-boot without one
17:45.57tonygyeah. I am still running the one that shipped with my phase1 device.
17:46.21mmontourtonyg: lowlevel_foo is to boot from RAM (rather than NAND flash) when using the debug board.
17:46.25SpeedEviltonyg: the shuipped uboot works
17:46.30SpeedEvil(to change speed)
17:46.38Writchieloadable kernel modules may be safest way to play.
17:46.57tonyghence your comment a page or so ago about an out-of-tree kernel module?
17:47.02tonygvery interesting!
17:47.08tonygkind of a REPL for the kernel :-)
17:47.09Writchieyup
17:47.24tonyga really clunky, dangerous repl
17:47.48*** join/#openmoko orion (n=bogardca@189.130.227.239)
17:47.57tonyg(once upon a time a guy I knew put a scheme interpreter into the kernel. great for rapid driver development and low-level experimentation)
17:48.08tonyg(it was a tinyscheme fork, iirc)
17:49.00tonyghttp://abstractnonsense.com/schemix/
17:51.19*** join/#openmoko jeffdameth (n=jeff@host-091-096-147-244.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
17:51.32ahvenwhy does Neo throw trash at me, when I connect with cu ?
17:52.15ahvennever-ending stream of garble
17:52.20ahvenonly the first few lines are ok
17:52.25emre_is it in boot menu?
17:52.28ahvenyep
17:52.36ahven./dfu-util.i386 --list
17:52.36ahvendfu-util - (C) 2007 by OpenMoko Inc.
17:52.36ahvenThis program is Free Software and has ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
17:52.36ahvenFound Runtime: [0x1457:0x5119] devnum=10, cfg=0, intf=2, alt=0, name="USB Device Firmware Upgrade"
17:52.36ahvenFound Runtime: [0x0a5c:0x2101] devnum=2, cfg=0, intf=3, alt=0, name="UNDEFINED"
17:52.40ahvenmaybe because of this?
17:52.46emre_use 1457 one
17:53.04emre_no.
17:53.05emre_sorry
17:53.16emre_maybe you flashed a bogus uboot/
17:53.28ahvennope, uboot should be fine
17:53.34ahvenerr, wait
17:53.37ahvenchecking something
17:53.43emre_well, so I don't know.
17:53.52*** part/#openmoko gabaug (n=gabe@24-136-31-88.mart-bsr1.chi-mart.il.cable.rcn.com)
17:54.11emre_hi folks, can someone help me about the openmoko projects developer svn access. DAV does not ask for password and SSH method says permission denied(public key).
17:55.01zashis there some easy way to run openmoko in qemu or similar without emulating ARM?
17:55.27emre_you can compile most of the applications for your host.
17:55.39ahventhat unknown was my bluetooth dongle
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17:56.08emre_i have a second device but works fine, that shouldn't be the problem.
17:56.39*** join/#openmoko johann (n=johan@80.174.134.205.dyn.user.ono.com)
18:02.14tonyghmm. even if there's no way of, from userland, switching off the display refresh, I can still use switchvt to switch away from X?
18:02.17tonygwould that help?
18:02.24tonygor is the chargen in software?
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18:05.24*** part/#openmoko orion (n=bogardca@189.130.227.239)
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18:08.01CIA-23openmoko: 03chris * r3615 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-messages2/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:08.01CIA-23openmoko: * src/sms-contacts.c: (contacts_added_cb), (contacts_changed_cb),
18:08.01CIA-23openmoko: (contacts_removed_cb), (contacts_iter_compare_func),
18:08.02CIA-23openmoko: (sms_contacts_page_new):
18:08.02CIA-23openmoko: * src/sms-contacts.h:
18:08.03CIA-23openmoko: * src/sms-notes.c: (global_note_added_cb),
18:08.07CIA-23openmoko: (global_note_modified_cb), (global_note_removed_ghrfunc),
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19:20.51tonyguh. Who was I talking to yesterday about apm's reporting of battery levels? Was it you, SpeedEvil?
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19:24.46ahvenin what package I can find "urllib" for python?
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19:25.16ahventrying to explore pyroute
19:29.10tonygnm, found the logs from yesterday (it was SpeedEvil)
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19:35.58SpeedEvilyes, it was me.
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19:50.34tonygIs it a recent change that /sys/.../chgstate now is to return "charger_present" and "usb_present" independently? The november-snapshot kernel seems to say simply "present"
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19:52.01cdbot2* * OM Bug 1102 has been created by balrogg(AT)gmail.com
19:52.02cdbot2* * Qemu gadgetfs support broken
19:52.03cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1102
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19:55.32zashdoes it happen to be a usb/hardware guru here?
19:56.45SpeedEvilzash: I know quite a lot of electronics and USB outside of its implementation on the neo, and a fair bit on that
19:56.52SpeedEvilnot so much on the software side.
19:57.03tonyghm. has the power management chip changed from the gta01 to the gta02?
19:57.34SpeedEvilyes
19:57.44tonygit's now the 50633? and was the 50606?
19:58.09SpeedEvildunno
19:58.26zashSpeedEvil: i have solderd togeather a usb male and a 3.5mm 4 pole plug
19:58.32balrog-kuntonyg: yes
19:58.39SpeedEvilzash: why?
19:58.40tonygI'm figuring out what are permitted chgstate values by reading the patches
19:58.48tonygthanks SpeedEvil , balrog-kun
19:59.44balrog-kuntonyg: i think there's perhaps some generic charger class in linux and it probably changed the values upstream, rather than in any particular driver
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19:59.57tonygoh. ok.
20:00.09tonygthey're different in an odd, ad-hoc kind of a way
20:02.00cdbot2* * OM Bug 1103 has been created by balrogg(AT)gmail.com
20:02.01cdbot2* * Qemu gadgetfs needs to use asynchronous IO
20:02.02cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1103
20:02.17ahveninteresting...in my debian package the urllib.py is in the main python package
20:02.25ahvenbut it isn't in openmoko
20:02.33tonygahven, yes, I'd thought it was a core module...
20:03.03ahvenand is there a way to search through packages eg. apt-file search ?
20:03.49tonygdon't know, I'm afraid
20:06.13xcasexScaredyCat: hey
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20:14.13tonygThe X screensaver - does it actually turn off the LCD?
20:14.21tonygas in, the refresh, not just the backlight
20:15.11SpeedEvilthat may do it
20:15.25SpeedEvilUSB tends to be a bit more robust
20:15.34tonygUSB?
20:16.36SpeedEviltonyg: mischan
20:16.44tonyg:)
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20:18.46balrog-kuntonyg: i believe yes, it stops the transfer of data between framebuffer and display
20:18.57ahven!seen
20:19.21tonygah! I wonder how it does that?
20:19.51balrog-kuntonyg: one easy way to check is run it in qemu and see if the clock updates when the backlight is off according to the console messages from qemu
20:22.25tonygeasy, if qemu were running ok for me :-(
20:22.54tonygwell, maybe it will work. the problems I was having were to do with the usb-keyboard support
20:23.35balrog-kunoh, related to the AUX and POWER buttons?
20:23.45tonygso what should I look for in the qemu output?
20:24.19tonyguh, sort of - AUX and POWER are CR and SP, and I can't type into an xterm
20:24.24tonygbut on my other dev box, I can.
20:24.25tonygweird
20:24.34balrog-kunit'll say something like "LCD Backlight now 0/64" when the screensaver kicks in
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20:24.53tonygand when the transfer of data stops?
20:25.07tonyghm, maybe I'll need to use the actual qemu monitor?
20:25.15balrog-kunyou will only know if you see that the screen is not updating
20:25.15tonygas opposed to reading qemu's stdout?
20:25.28balrog-kunno, it's on stdout
20:25.29tonygah, ok, gotcha.
20:25.35balrog-kuncan you add the keyboard issue to the bugzilla?
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20:25.52tonygbalrog-kun, I'll just now try to reproduce.
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20:26.30balrog-kunthere were no changes in anything that has to do with keyboard recenetly
20:26.32tonyghm, actually the pointer seems off, too
20:26.44tonygnever mind. I'll just watch the clock now :)
20:27.47tonyg(how long is the default screensaver?)
20:28.21balrog-kunlike five or three minutes
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20:30.21ahvenbtw, why is the background of the panel items usually black, but sometimes white?
20:30.22ahvenbug?
20:31.20balrog-kuni think there are images in the background? nt one solid colour?
20:31.58balrog-kunah panel..
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20:33.33ahvenhttp://scap.linuxtogo.org/
20:33.34ahven577
20:34.18xcasexahven: the gpe blub? :D
20:34.24xcasex*blurb
20:34.27balrog-kunyes, some matchbox glitch
20:34.31balrog-kunor theme glitch
20:34.41ahvenok
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20:40.00tonygwow. the clock is really not at all realtime :)
20:40.14ahvenbalrog-kun: can you elaborate why python doesn't have urllib.py in the core package?
20:40.20tonyg~1.5 real seconds per second...
20:40.40ahvendon't have a clue, what package to install for getting it
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20:41.04tonygahven, you could investigate the *.bb bitbake scripts for python in the openembedded directory of your build
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20:41.27balrog-kunahven: no idea, i haven't written a single line of python in my life
20:41.35balrog-kunand i don't use packages
20:41.39ahvenok
20:44.34tonygfinally. the LCD Backlight now at 0/64 message...
20:44.42tonyg...aha! and I saw the digits update
20:44.46tonygI'll wait for another one to be sure
20:45.19pH5ahven: urllib is in python-netclient. found out by grepping through packages/python/python-2.5-manifest.inc
20:45.34ahvenoh :)
20:45.53balrog-kuntonyg: ouch, that would mean the framebuffer driver doesn't suspend
20:46.18tonygthere it goes again. yeah, looks that way.
20:46.23tonygok, good to know.
20:46.32balrog-kunuhmm.. which is true looking at the driver code :(
20:46.41tonygdoh :)
20:46.43balrog-kunit ony resets the palette but doesn't stop transfer
20:46.55tonygis there a programmatic way to stop transfer from userland?
20:47.00tonygwhich file are you looking at?
20:47.25balrog-kundrivers/video/s3c2410fb.c:s3c2410fb_blank()
20:47.31balrog-kunfrom userspace, i doubt
20:47.57balrog-kunor maybe..
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20:51.24tonygwhen it's in text mode, ie VT 1 for instance, is the character generator in software or hardware? If it's in software, switching to text mode may not save any RAM accesses
20:51.35tonygbecause the resolution is the same after all
20:52.08balrog-kunyes, it's in software
20:52.32tonygdamn.
20:53.03tonygSpeedEvil, how does that line up with your memory of power benefits from killing X?
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20:53.47balrog-kuni'm gonna enter the keyboard bug into bugzilla because i need to log out soon
20:54.11prpplaguegreetings all
20:54.15balrog-kunwell, the bug where you can't use AUX and POWER after linux boots, only in u-boot
20:54.23tonygI couldn't reproduce it, because qemu wouldn't let me click on the terminal emulator entry in the app startup window
20:54.32tonygbalrog-kun, no, aux and power worked ok
20:54.36tonygit was the usb keyboard that didn't
20:54.42tonyg... or so I *assume*
20:54.43prpplaguequestion, how well has the pcf50606 worked out for the neo? reliable?
20:54.53tonygreally, I don't know enough to be able to file a good bug report
20:55.00balrog-kuntonyg: they worked in Linux?
20:55.16tonygbalrog-kun, I don't know. I'm sorry.
20:55.23tonygthey work on the real hardware ;-)
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20:55.43balrog-kuntonyg: i'm gonna add that as a bug so i don't forget to check it on monday :)
20:55.45tonygIf I manage to pin it down, I'll file a bug
20:55.48tonygokay :)
20:56.10ahvenpH5: could you find also where does cgi.py hide itself? according to debian, also should be in the core package :)
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20:56.55technilanyone know if mtn uses the $OMDIR in setup-env to locate the OE.mtn database ?
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20:57.53techniljust upgraded to gutsy from Fiesty ubuntu and all my external drives have been renamed by automount
20:59.04technilnm it doesn't.
20:59.18technilsry 4 the noise
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21:01.02cdbot2* * OM Bug 1104 has been created by balrogg(AT)gmail.com
21:01.03cdbot2* * GTA01 Hardware keys don't work under Linux 2.6 in qemu
21:01.03cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1104
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21:10.04ahvenpH5: found the place, no matter now :)
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21:26.57Stephmwevenin'
21:27.54ahvenpyroute's hotpoints for clicking are weird kind of
21:29.48ahvencan't find the right spot :P
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21:29.50ScaredyCatnot very useful then :)
21:29.50ahvenyup
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21:30.01ahvenonly had to install almost all the python packages to get it working :)
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21:30.51ScaredyCat..
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21:31.05xcasexO_o
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21:31.25ScaredyCatyes, well
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21:34.17xcasexhttp://pygps.org/  <--- excellent
21:34.29Stephmwtonyg: you know your couple of packages for a UI-less OM... are they in the tree?
21:34.58tonygno, very much external to the tree :-)
21:35.10tonygIf you'd like to experiment (how's your erlang?), I can upload my erlang .ipks
21:35.14tonygor you can build your own
21:35.44tonygOnce you have those, it's a slightly manual process to get the userland running, but not too bad. Basically mkdir /.matchbox, ln -s /media/card/erlang-openmoko/priv/*.session /.matchbox/.
21:35.50tonygand restart the X server
21:36.02tonygOh, I've been putting the userland on the SD card for ease of development
21:36.11tonygbut it could go anywhere if you change the hardcoded paths in the code ;-)
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21:37.05tonyg(it has the ui started as part of it at the moment, but I'm considering ditching that (who wants to do GUI programming anyway? yuck) and implementing the GSMD protocol)
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21:37.30tonyger. or rather, *ahem*, why do you ask? :-)
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21:39.39univacerlang works?
21:39.47tonygunivac, sure. it works great :)
21:39.50tonygjust like on my desktop
21:39.55tonyg(the gs libs aren't there)
21:40.11univacHello = fun () -> io:format("hello world!~n") end. Hello().
21:40.12univac;d
21:40.21tonyg:)
21:40.50tonygunivac, see http://www.lshift.net/blog/2007/09/16/erlang-on-neo1973-cellphone
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21:42.47Stephmwtonyg: hmmm, no, my erlang is nonexistant :)
21:43.12Stephmwtonyg: I'm just not familiar on how to hook into the boot sequence to replace everything myself
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21:43.24tonygall I did was create the /.matchbox/session script
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21:43.34tonygand then copied the default and chopped out what I didn't want
21:43.41tonyg(neod, openmoko-today etc)
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21:44.12tonygIt will check $HOME/.matchbox/session before /etc/matchbox/session
21:44.18tonygand $HOME is empty when it boots
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21:44.39tonyg(warning: it isn't empty when you ssh in as root, so I've also symlinked /home/root/.matchbox to /.matchbox)
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21:44.45ahvenxcasex: did you compile pygps yourself?
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21:45.33nelsonwhy would you need to compile pygps?
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21:45.45Stephmwtonyg: ahh. I was thinking of also removing X :)
21:46.11ahvennelson: http://familiar.handhelds.org/releases/v0.7.2/x/armv4l/pygps_0.06-1_all.ipk fails installing
21:46.26ahvenERROR: Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for pygps:
21:46.26ahven<PROTECTED>
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21:47.22nelsonhrm.  Yeah, you need the one that pavelm has (hopefully) packaged.
21:48.12ahvenonly gtk2 packages in openmoko repos
21:49.05xcasexnelson: wth. shouldnt you be out there giving that gpe guy a hard time :p
21:49.22xcasexj/k
21:51.01cdbot2* * OM Bug 1105 has been created by tonyg(AT)kcbbs.gen.nz
21:51.02cdbot2* * Blanking GTA01 LCD doesn't switch off display refresh
21:51.03cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1105
21:51.48tonygStephmw, woo, hardcore!
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21:52.53Stephmwtonyg: in fact... I wonder if I can staticly link libc into my main executable :D
21:53.06Stephmwtonyg: but that's not really Neo-related
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22:00.06tonygStephmw, you're not thinking of doing anything tricksy like running squeak as the userland are you? ;-)
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22:09.21Stephmwtonyg: n...ooooo
22:09.34Stephmwtonyg: I'm not quite that twisted
22:09.46tonyg(I considered it)
22:09.50tonyg(erlang is a much better choice)
22:10.08tonyg(it does run! ... a bit slowly, but that's just bloated smalltalk code rather than a slow vm)
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22:54.06Writchiewoot - out of tree kernel module builds, inserts and removes without crashing !
22:54.15SpeedEvil:)
22:54.16zashyoy
22:54.38CVirusany progress on the wifi driver ?
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23:06.46abraxa_CVirus: It works, that's what I know
23:07.05zashany progress on selling the gta02 to me yet?
23:07.16zashs/the/a
23:08.09CVirusyeah .. any progress on that too ?
23:08.26Mononokezash: it was talked some time ago and it should come in about 3 plutonian months
23:09.11ahvenand the pricetag will go a little up or stays the same? :)
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23:09.35ahventoo early to talk about that though
23:17.36mwesterThe price will be about 300,000 plutonian dollars.
23:18.17Writchieabout the same in US dollars by the time its out
23:18.40Writchiegiven current FED policies
23:19.33ahvenwell, the masses tend to get more interested in smaller numbers
23:19.36ahvenlike $299.99 :)
23:19.41mwesterbah.  It isn't the Fed.  It's the idiots who mortgaged themselves way out of what they could afford with adjustable rate mortgages, and now suddenly find they can't pay it anymore.
23:20.04Writchiebut its the fed bailing them and banks out.
23:20.30ckuetheyay for fixed rate (so i know what it'll cost) and trying my damned-est to pay it off ASAP
23:20.42mwesterThat part is partially true, anyway.  Enough are failing to wake people up, it'll take time.  And a lot of newly-homeless families.
23:21.33Writchieit will be easier to payback the $trillions in US debt to Chinese et all with the new $100,000 bills
23:21.39mwesterBut what really gets me are the number of folks who are on the verge of losing everything, but still go out and rack up credit debt buying xmas gifts they can't afford.
23:21.53mwesterThe Chinese are too smart for that.  They'll want land.
23:22.20unknown_lamerha property owners
23:22.34Writchiewhen its all over they'll go back to keeping gold in their mattress
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23:23.52Writchiefrom Citibank of Arabia
23:23.59mwesterThe Saudis will give you credit?
23:24.06Mononokeit doesn't matter at all. USD is falling so the "price" is higer, even it didn't change much at all compared to other currency
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23:24.42WritchieAsia is mostly dollar based
23:24.48Writchiebut not for much longer
23:24.59mwesterhehe! that's the truth!
23:25.11mwesterBut will they even consider the euro?
23:25.22Writchiermb will be king
23:25.31Writchieeventually
23:25.34zashscrew the euro, SEK ftw
23:26.24xcasexzash speaks the truth
23:26.55zashor we could just trade with cows
23:27.25Writchie16" wafers
23:27.31SpeedEvilWe already do.
23:27.31Mononokewhat would you do if your money..erhm cows catch BSE ?
23:27.46SpeedEvilPenalties for non-delivery of milk of cows are very severe.
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23:32.38Writchieno fair - subsidies all over the place
23:33.01Writchiethey probably pay you to dump the milk
23:34.26SpeedEvilWritchie: I was meaning - trading with cows - those cows that don't have any milk to trade face severe sanctions.
23:34.27Writchiewell since 25% of americans think the sun orbits the milk, I wonder how many think milk comes from citrus trees
23:35.10Writchies/the milk/the moon/
23:35.22Writchies/moon/earth/
23:35.39Writchies/the milk/the earth/
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23:36.20Writchiedon't forget the carbon credits for the cows gasious byproducts
23:36.42MononokeWritchie: first of all americans aren't so stupid and it isn't inteligent to just sling mud at them. Second it's impolite to attack any nation at all
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23:37.42WritchieMononoke: since I'm American I can do it - and the 25% figure was just reported yesterday.
23:38.03mwester~blame Writchie
23:38.03aptACTION blames Writchie (and Canada) for all the evil in the world
23:38.04Writchieit's actually a true number of adults and I think they are voters
23:38.23Writchiethe kids in school aren't that smart ;)
23:38.41Mononokestatistics... everyone with some math skills can say that statistics is pain in math's butt
23:38.46mwesterDid the report say how many of those reject the science, vs how many are truly ignorant?
23:39.55Writchieactually the survey was 1 in 5 two years ago and now 1 in 4.
23:40.09mwesterOuch
23:41.23Writchie20% - 25% are "scientifically savvy and alert"
23:42.29Writchiemwester: on the upside all these idiots feel good about themselves.
23:42.34SpeedEvilOr don't understand the question and answer randomly.
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23:44.41mwesterI think I found that article.  It's quoting someone at Northwestern University right here in Chicago.  There are crackpots all over, but generally NWU is reputable.
23:44.56Writchiemy kids have now seen "An Inconvenient Truth" three times in class this year.
23:44.58mwesterDunno if the link requires registration: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/science/30profile.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
23:45.12Writchiethat's the one from a couple of years ago
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23:45.40mwesterWritchie:  Dunno if mine have, it's sad that that is what passes for scientific education in some schools.
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23:46.21Writchieit's banned from schools in UK as propaganda IIRC
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23:47.09mwester"Fewer than a third can identify DNA as a key to heredity"  -- makes the thought of a jury scary, given the prevelance of DNA evidence anymore.
23:48.15Stephmwaye... talk about dumbing down science in UK schools...
23:48.43Stephmwthey're now studying 'general trends'... no more practical science in classrooms
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23:51.28mjrmwester, you didn't find it scary before?
23:51.42mwesterNever thought about it before.
23:51.54mjrluckily no juries as in US here
23:52.23mwesterWhat, the cops or the military do the honors?
23:52.25Stephmwmjr: 20 more years and the judges will be the children of today
23:52.28Stephmwmjr: scared?
23:52.38Stephmwmjr: err.. ok, 40 years :)
23:54.31mjrmwester, you know, there's judges. (There are a couple of, hmh, well, let's say jurors assisting at least in district court, but with much more limited power than your US jury)
23:56.01mjr...laymember of the court, whatever
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