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| 00:19.50 | RoboPhred | what component would a gtk bug be under? |
| 00:19.54 | RoboPhred | bug/enhancement |
| 00:20.36 | josch | RoboPhred, depends on the kind of gtk bug I would say ^^ |
| 00:20.50 | josch | just file it - it wil be moved if other think it's not right |
| 00:21.09 | RoboPhred | a widget, I submitted a fix earlier but the closest I could find was graphics design |
| 00:21.31 | borg_ | RoboPhred: yes, i would suggest that too |
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| 00:21.49 | borg_ | your fix is probably some sort of graphics design fix |
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| 00:22.08 | RoboPhred | I would think that would be for images though, not code side |
| 00:22.35 | borg_ | yes, but there is nothing else that matches at all ;) |
| 00:22.44 | RoboPhred | libgtkinput, maby? |
| 00:23.23 | RoboPhred | looks like they need to add a general gtk component |
| 00:23.49 | borg_ | RoboPhred: |
| 00:23.49 | borg_ | Theming buglog@lists.openmoko.org |
| 00:23.50 | borg_ | Gtk+ Theming in general |
| 00:23.56 | borg_ | whats with theming? |
| 00:24.11 | RoboPhred | I dont understand the question |
| 00:24.21 | borg_ | :P |
| 00:24.33 | borg_ | theming is a component in bugzilla too |
| 00:24.44 | borg_ | and the description is "Gtk+ Theming in general" |
| 00:24.51 | borg_ | sounds not that bad for your patch |
| 00:25.18 | Psi_ | ive been away for a while, does the latest buildhost build have any gps functionality? |
| 00:25.27 | borg_ | Psi_: no |
| 00:25.32 | Psi_ | ok thanks |
| 00:25.42 | borg_ | Psi_: you can get gps functionality here: |
| 00:25.44 | borg_ | http://3rdparty.downloads.openmoko.org/ |
| 00:25.47 | borg_ | have fun :) |
| 00:26.51 | rwhitby | ah, moko monotone server is up again |
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| 00:32.20 | NineX | trainspotting |
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| 00:42.03 | RoboPhred | hmm, been looking at the pictures of the older moko ui, seems better than the newer... |
| 00:42.16 | borg_ | RoboPhred: it isn't |
| 00:42.38 | RoboPhred | http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/openmoko-smartphone-did-they-have-a-time-machine-or-what-229243.php |
| 00:42.39 | borg_ | it is to small on the neo |
| 00:42.44 | RoboPhred | hm |
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| 00:49.29 | mrcucumber | Is the moko make file working now? When I've tried in the past it's a major crap shoot if it will work or not |
| 00:52.25 | RoboPhred | it worked for me, I got it 2 days ago |
| 00:56.34 | RoboPhred | wonder if anyone got om working on an mda... |
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| 01:31.51 | rwhitby | mrcucumber: the crap shoot was OE package versions. Those have been frozen now, so OE is much more stable. And OM has now frozen that even further on the OM monotone server. |
| 01:32.19 | rwhitby | So once you have your build environment set up (I suggest Ubuntu on a 32-bit kernel), then you should be fine. |
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| 01:33.13 | rwhitby | The mokomakefile itself (as opposed to the OE system it builds, and the OM recipes in that system) has be rock solid all that time. |
| 01:40.56 | bobesponja | hey |
| 01:41.58 | bobesponja | I see many articles about neo having multitouch but there's almost nothing about it on the wiki except for the wishlist, any idea what's up with multi-touch? |
| 01:46.28 | CoreDump | neo doesn't have a mutli-touch touchscreen |
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| 01:47.11 | bobesponja | CoreDump: thanks, any idea if that's planed for future releases? |
| 01:47.26 | CoreDump | no idea, sorry |
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| 02:05.07 | mrcucumber | rwhitby: yeah, it is up and running without any problems for a change |
| 02:05.20 | mrcucumber | rwhitby: things have really grown up, it looks like a phone :) |
| 02:05.39 | mrcucumber | rwhitby: if only GTA02 w/ 850mhz would come out now :) |
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| 04:11.52 | flexd_ | I sort of got a genious idea |
| 04:11.57 | flexd_ | dunno if it's mentioned by anyone |
| 04:11.57 | flexd_ | but |
| 04:12.04 | flexd_ | scheduled sms/mss/email sending |
| 04:12.08 | flexd_ | mms* |
| 04:12.10 | flexd_ | Like |
| 04:12.16 | flexd_ | It's 5 am here |
| 04:12.26 | flexd_ | but i wanna send someone a message, without waking them up |
| 04:12.38 | flexd_ | So i set the phone to send the message i write in, at a specified time |
| 04:13.02 | flexd_ | or something whatever, someone ping pong me if it's a good idea, im gonna goto sleep :| |
| 04:13.34 | Taco | Flexd: Sounds like a good idea to me. |
| 04:13.38 | flexd_ | (I should really learn to write longer sentances huh? 10 lines with just me typing, dang!) |
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| 04:14.44 | flexd | And i think it can be handled either by implementing it as Calender events or using cron or something (or adding a whole schedule system to the sms app) |
| 04:15.17 | Taco | cron seems like a natural way. |
| 04:15.24 | flexd | but as im sort of rambling now, i'm gonna goto bed before i say soemthing stupid, like 20 hours since i slept :| |
| 04:15.43 | Taco | Have a good snooze. |
| 04:15.51 | Taco | (good) |
| 04:15.58 | flexd | back in like 24hours :P |
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| 04:42.06 | Taco | Does anyone know of a program which can run on the neo which will interpret the nmea stream, and produce a display of position, satellite coverage, etc? |
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| 07:29.03 | Maybelline | Can anyone comment on the 850MHz band and Neo1973 usage in the US? Is the Neo just not going to work in the US? |
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| 07:56.45 | rwhitby | GTA01 will not work for those people whose carrier only has 850MHz in the location where they want it to work. |
| 07:57.20 | rwhitby | GTA02 may have two tri-band variants, one which does 850 and one which does 900. This has not been announced as an official plan yet. |
| 08:02.12 | rwhitby | hmm - they'd quit anyway. |
| 08:04.47 | emdete | rwhitby: wasn't there any rumour about gsm firmware update to solve that issue? |
| 08:09.56 | rwhitby | emdete: nope, gsm firmware update is about sims, not frequencies |
| 08:10.30 | rwhitby | frequencies require hardware changes (850MHz filters instead of 900MHz filters - the board is only laid out with a three-way filter switch, not a four-way) |
| 08:11.31 | wucheng | has any one compiled the gadgetfs.o in your system? i can not find gadgetfs.c in my kernel source . |
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| 08:28.00 | wucheng | anyone where is the file "gadgets.c", google can not find it at all |
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| 08:29.23 | Taco | Does anyone know if a standard way for applications to access the GPS information has been established? If multiple apps what that info, they can't all parse the NMEA stream, right? Will there be a daemon or something that writes the position data somewhere? |
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| 08:37.30 | swetland | ms |
| 08:37.33 | swetland | oops |
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| 11:05.00 | PBeck | hi |
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| 11:35.12 | readon | i have two packages one is cairo-directfb, the other is cairo.gtkfb image DEPENDS the former as staging. gtk needs the later. |
| 11:35.24 | readon | when i changed between the two images,i must rebuild one of them in order to get correct header files. |
| 11:35.36 | readon | is there any method to avoid this? |
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| 12:54.42 | emdete | readon: do you use directfb /and/ x11? |
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| 13:01.42 | readon | emdete, yes, i want to try them both |
| 13:01.55 | readon | but not the same time |
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| 13:04.40 | emdete | okay... understand. perhaps use 2 build trees? |
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| 13:05.17 | emdete | directfb is really nice, btw... i like the api, it's very clean and stable (compared to other graphic apis) |
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| 14:06.01 | flexd | http://flexd.pastebin.com/f40058bf4 |
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| 14:13.08 | tonyg | dual core rules. |
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| 14:18.56 | josch | flexd, I heard this idea several times - seems reasonable to me but for me cron suffices for this task |
| 14:19.24 | flexd | hmm |
| 14:19.31 | flexd | Could just be built into the sms app imo |
| 14:22.07 | josch | aye |
| 14:23.28 | Mononoke | smsapp code is where ? |
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| 14:26.11 | flexd | dunno |
| 14:26.42 | borg_ | openmoko/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-messages2 |
| 14:26.51 | abraxa_ | mwester: ping |
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| 14:35.30 | flexd | Me neither |
| 14:35.47 | flexd | But certain girls try to strangle me if i wake them up, i need safety :P |
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| 14:44.17 | josch | flexd, I see it the other way round: some girls strangle me if I don't send them an sms exactly 0:00 on their birthday ^^ |
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| 14:45.06 | Mononoke | josch: it would be nice to have generator of such sms :) |
| 14:45.21 | flexd | No that is okay too, but she wasnt all that happy when i sent her a good morning message at 6 am when i went to work when she didnt goto school and woke up 13~ each day.. :P |
| 14:45.40 | Mononoke | so when adding contact you'll just add her to birthday category and moko vill send sms automaticaly :) |
| 14:45.44 | flexd | I almost died :( |
| 14:46.40 | Mononoke | hmm 6am, she isn't the only person which would kill you for that |
| 14:49.56 | flexd | Mononoke: no shit, i was confuzzled when i woke up :p |
| 14:50.19 | Mononoke | ho can even someone wake up so early? |
| 14:50.36 | flexd | a loud obnoxious alarm on my cellphone |
| 14:50.57 | Mononoke | that's very dangerous for the phone |
| 14:51.05 | flexd | which is also why i a) hate my phone, and it's hardly working from the times i've chucked into the wall b) I cant ever ever use my neo as a alarm :P |
| 14:51.57 | Mononoke | try it, you'll do great crashtesting |
| 14:56.08 | polz | hmm.. I used to wake up at 6 every morning when I was still in elementary school |
| 14:56.16 | josch | crashtesting is already done be me - no worries |
| 14:57.08 | josch | s/be/by/ |
| 14:57.21 | Mononoke | I said it here some time in past |
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| 14:58.46 | josch | Mononoke, I can remember ^^ |
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| 15:05.49 | mwester | :( |
| 15:06.05 | borg_ | mwester: where do you have your neo? in home? |
| 15:06.09 | borg_ | it wont work there |
| 15:06.29 | NineX | some one tell me what do "Factory reset" Pozition in u-boot menu ?? |
| 15:06.32 | mjr | (lacking favourable conditions) |
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| 15:07.31 | mwester | borg_: Apparently so. But it didn't aquire the signal in the 20 - 30 minute segments between buldings yesterday either. My Garmin, and two no-name taiwanese external GPS units sync up find here in my office. :( |
| 15:07.52 | mwester | er, fine even |
| 15:08.57 | mwester | well, it's above freezing, and the precipitation has stopped. I'll place it in a plastic bag, and put it on the table outside for an hour or two. |
| 15:11.43 | mwester | linux-openmoko-2.6.22.5-moko11+svnr3238-r10/temp/run.do_compile.5264: line 734: uboot-mkimage: command not found |
| 15:11.51 | mwester | Who broke the kernel bb recipe? |
| 15:12.11 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck_ (n=PBeck@78.42.60.129) |
| 15:15.22 | tonyg | mwester, try this: ((cd build; . ../setup-env; bitbake uboot-openmoko); make openmoko-devel-image) |
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| 15:18.56 | mwester | Kinda worrisome that it's been broken since late last week -- I get the impression I'm the only person who builds from scratch anymore. The implications of which are interesting... |
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| 15:25.11 | cesarb | mwester: er... I build the whole tree from scratch thursday-friday |
| 15:26.13 | mwester | Hmmm. I started a build on friday am, and had the above failure. |
| 15:28.28 | cesarb | the only reference to mkimage on my logs is on line 1621 |
| 15:28.34 | cesarb | "mkimage" command not found - U-Boot images will not be built |
| 15:31.03 | cesarb | mwester: I have a build/tmp/staging/x86_64-linux/bin/uboot-mkimage, perhaps it's because I always run "make tools" before "make image", while the default is the opposite? |
| 15:31.06 | mwester | I have that same text. But then apparently it goes ahead and builds the uboot image anyway. |
| 15:31.20 | mwester | Ah, that could do it. |
| 15:31.55 | cesarb | (I do that because "make tools" is much faster and builds dfu-util, which can be quite useful) |
| 15:32.55 | mwester | I copied dfu-util to /usr/local/bin where it's even more useful. :) |
| 15:33.46 | *** join/#openmoko yerga (n=yerga@87.223.212.95) |
| 15:35.36 | cesarb | NineX: the "factory reset" builds in memory a default environment (which includes a default partition table) and boots |
| 15:37.00 | cesarb | mwester: I tried friday night to get a fix in my home, and failed; the next day I went to a nearby park (still a lot of buildings around, but I can see the whole sky instead of just half of it), and it got a 3D fix |
| 15:37.12 | *** join/#openmoko LaF0rge (n=laforge@sunbeam.ipv6.gnumonks.org) |
| 15:37.26 | cesarb | mwester: and, most interesting, after that I can easily get a fix even inside my home, in the same places it didn't get a fix before |
| 15:37.47 | cesarb | mwester: it probably saved the "last known good fix" and is using it to select the correct satelites or something like that |
| 15:38.35 | cesarb | mwester: so, you could try staying for some minutes in a area with a good view of the sky, until it gets a fix, and then try again in the places it wasn't working before |
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| 15:45.46 | josch | cesarb, can confirm this |
| 15:46.11 | cesarb | josch: ? |
| 15:46.27 | josch | cesarb, I mean this behaviour of gps |
| 15:46.33 | josch | was the same for me |
| 15:46.41 | josch | don't know why though |
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| 15:47.07 | m4t | hey |
| 15:47.15 | cesarb | josch: I'm guessing the nvram dat files were included in the package by mistake, and are in fact pointing somewhere in the exact opposite place in the globe |
| 15:47.19 | m4t | anyone have any idea of what the difference between the consumer-ready and developer hardware will be? |
| 15:47.30 | mwester | Ok, that's encouraging. The sats were all low on the horizon when I was outside last (according to the Garmin, anyway). The Garmin now says I have a bunch of them closer to directly overhead, and the Neo is outside on the table. We'll see shortly :) |
| 15:47.41 | cesarb | josch: which confuses the optimization which uses the last known good fix, until it gets enough sats to be 100% sure it's wrong |
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| 15:48.00 | josch | what are the nvram files for anyway? |
| 15:48.17 | cesarb | mwester: the sats are all kinda low around here ;-) I think no track passes overhead... |
| 15:48.38 | cesarb | josch: I'm guessing that they store useful things like last known good fix, last known good almanac... |
| 15:48.44 | mwester | cesarb: that could be good - they are for military use, after all :D |
| 15:49.07 | *** join/#openmoko ScreaM (n=GiG@82.151.112.102) |
| 15:49.22 | cesarb | mwester: the civilian uses probably already way surpassed the military uses |
| 15:49.36 | cesarb | mwester: it's generally useful for everyone, military or not |
| 15:49.36 | mwester | So if that's the case, then the presence of them would be the very worst thing when one travels from Ottawa to Chicago. |
| 15:49.59 | cesarb | mwester: but we really need a _local_ positioning system too, for when we're inside buildings or "urban canyon"s |
| 15:50.15 | mwester | Oh I know - I'm just stirring the pot (there's always a few people about who distrust GPS because of the military heritage. |
| 15:50.35 | mwester | cesarb: A _local_ system is exactly the project I was intending to work on with the neo. |
| 15:50.38 | cesarb | mwester: _computers_ have a military heritage |
| 15:50.52 | ScreaM | 8Here there are little girls??? |
| 15:51.16 | _diego__ | does anybody knows what .ipk should I install for using struct module in python? |
| 15:52.12 | cesarb | mwester: if there's a good reason to mistrust GPS, it would be because it's US-controlled (but that reason only applies if you mistrust the US government/military in particular) |
| 15:52.26 | mwester | The idea was that one would have a database, and a daemon that would collect and correlate all forms of data that could be used for positioning: GSM towers, wireless hotspot MACs, bluetooth MACs, etc. Combined with the motion detectors, the Neo would be able to "guess" if you had entered the executive boardroom and placed the Neo face-down on the desk -- and automatically go into "do not disturb" mode. |
| 15:53.19 | *** join/#openmoko Gybrush_ (n=Gybrush@f053152251.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 15:53.30 | josch | mwester, this sounds soooo scifi to me ^^ |
| 15:53.34 | cesarb | mwester: I also had the same idea (but not as far as the "gesture" part of putting the neo in the desk, perhaps since I usually leave my cell phone in my pocket or belt all the time to avoid losing it) |
| 15:54.32 | cesarb | mwester: I know there is a database of all the cell towers in my country (which unfortunately seems to have moved to somewhere I didn't find yet; that website is confusing). IIRC it had the coordinates for them, but unfortunately not their network IDs |
| 15:54.57 | Mononoke | GPS is one way : from them > to you, there is no reason for being paranoid at all |
| 15:55.04 | m4t | what us carriers support the neo1973? |
| 15:55.11 | Mononoke | worst thing person controling GPS can do is to shut it down |
| 15:55.32 | josch | m4t, the neo is unlocked |
| 15:55.45 | cesarb | mwester: but combining the "engineering mode" (%EM) output with some learning mode (while outside, try to find out where the cells are; so, when inside, you can have a good guess as to what the GPS would say) could get some interesting results |
| 15:55.45 | josch | m4t, ah you mean the 850 issue? |
| 15:56.01 | cesarb | josch: don't forget the 3G SIM issue |
| 15:56.07 | *** join/#openmoko OJW (n=Ojw@87-194-198-122.bethere.co.uk) |
| 15:56.07 | mwester | The motion detectors are a key ingredient I think; they allow the neo to do some really cool things. For example, if the GPS says it has moved a great distance, and it is late in the evening, and the neo has not been moved in some time, it would great if it would just quietly beep and offer to set an alarm for the morning -- the "business traveller" profile. |
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| 15:56.50 | m4t | yea im using sprint right now and i know thats cdma |
| 15:56.56 | m4t | so im not sure if its in my area |
| 15:56.58 | cesarb | mwester: the main obstacle currently, as I see it, is the fact that the kernel control of the battery power is problematic |
| 15:57.00 | m4t | do u guys use att or what? |
| 15:57.25 | josch | cesarb, just carry around a huge battery pack :-P |
| 15:57.26 | m4t | im in cincinnati btw |
| 15:57.27 | mwester | cesarb: Yes. I've been terribly disappointed by the reality of the hardware as it relates to my dream application. |
| 15:57.54 | cesarb | mwester: as I said, I went outside to get a fix; came back home and got a fix at the windows.... and the phone _powered off_ and didn't power back on |
| 15:57.57 | mwester | m4t: T-Mobile. The Neo pukes on most AT&T/Cingular SIMS. |
| 15:58.18 | cesarb | mwester: half an hour of USB power cured it, but even then that's ridiculously wrong |
| 15:58.26 | mwester | I've noticed the battery guage doesn't actually change to indicate the charge remaining. |
| 15:58.34 | cesarb | mwester: it should _warn_ of low battery, shutdown on low battery... |
| 15:58.40 | cesarb | mwester: yeah, it was half full |
| 15:58.59 | mwester | ... and when the Neo powers off, it should turn off *everything* IMO. |
| 15:59.04 | cesarb | mwester: so, we have two problems: |
| 15:59.20 | cesarb | 1. the way it deals with low battery is awful |
| 15:59.28 | cesarb | 2. it eats way too much battery |
| 15:59.56 | mwester | 3. it doesn't resume from suspend very well at all |
| 15:59.59 | cesarb | mwester: actually, it only needs to turn off the amp and the modem. the PMU turns off the rest. |
| 16:00.12 | _diego__ | 2) is well known, is the reason for the delay of GTA02 |
| 16:00.25 | mwester | Are you sure the GPS is not also on the wrong side of the PMU chip? |
| 16:00.34 | cesarb | mwester: fun experiment: plug the usb, power menu, "lock" (which actually means susped), unplug the usb. locked up neo! |
| 16:00.56 | _diego__ | cesarb, it works for me (most of the time, not always) |
| 16:01.04 | cesarb | mwester: speedevil (IIRC) did a lot of experiments, and the only issues were the amp and the modem |
| 16:01.12 | _diego__ | it just exit from suspend |
| 16:01.26 | cesarb | mwester: also, the info you can get by looking at the wiki/mailing lists point to only those two directly on the battery |
| 16:01.43 | cesarb | _diego__: for me, it exited from suspend into text mode, with a single kernel message on top |
| 16:01.49 | mwester | cesarb: There have been a number of interesting bug-battles of late, perhaps you didn't see those? |
| 16:02.01 | mwester | ~ombug 1003 |
| 16:02.01 | cesarb | mwester: I'm still catching up |
| 16:02.10 | mwester | !ombug 1003 |
| 16:02.11 | cdbot2 | * * Bug 1003, Status: REOPENED, Created: Unknown |
| 16:02.12 | cdbot2 | * * mwester(AT)dls.net: GSM modem is not powered down when Linux is shut down |
| 16:02.13 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1003 |
| 16:02.21 | cesarb | mwester: went "too busy irl" away for a couple of weeks |
| 16:02.28 | *** join/#openmoko ebel (n=rory@212.2.176.194) |
| 16:02.33 | mwester | Ah, ok. |
| 16:02.50 | *** join/#openmoko SpeedEvil (n=irc@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) |
| 16:02.58 | cesarb | mwester: I think I caught up with about half of the buglog list for the past month alreay |
| 16:03.16 | m4t | yea i think there's t-mobile service here |
| 16:03.21 | Mononoke | heh after while of googling about GPS hacks: U.S. military claimed to destroy a GPS jammer with a GPS-guided bomb during the Iraq War. |
| 16:03.23 | _diego__ | I've upgraded my software 3 or 4 time, but never had consistent problem with resume |
| 16:03.30 | Mononoke | what do you see wrong on that sentence? |
| 16:03.36 | SpeedEvil | Mononoke: nothing |
| 16:03.45 | cesarb | speaking of speedevil... |
| 16:03.51 | Mononoke | how can GPS guided bomb destroy GPS jammer ? |
| 16:04.00 | SpeedEvil | Mononoke: the GPS aided JDAM assistance kits have an increased error if they can't use GPS |
| 16:04.08 | SpeedEvil | however they have internal inertial navigation |
| 16:04.22 | SpeedEvil | and are wired to the planes inertial navigation and GPS till it's released |
| 16:04.26 | Mononoke | SpeedEvil: thx :) it just sounded wired |
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| 16:04.45 | SpeedEvil | they are less accurate - but much more accurate than a 'dumb' bomb |
| 16:05.05 | cesarb | Mononoke: blowing up a jammer is easy with an anti-radiation missile... jammers are just too visible |
| 16:05.14 | SpeedEvil | err - no |
| 16:05.22 | SpeedEvil | jammers can be made for $10 |
| 16:05.29 | SpeedEvil | missiles cost $100K+ |
| 16:05.59 | SpeedEvil | It's much easier to jam civil GPS, but military GPS can be jammed too. However, it doesn't help. |
| 16:06.00 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: I said easy, not cost-effective ;-) |
| 16:06.21 | SpeedEvil | Because if you're up against a world power, it doesn't matter. |
| 16:06.25 | Mononoke | so building bunch of jammers jamming sky :) |
| 16:06.31 | SpeedEvil | As they are not sitting over your jammer. |
| 16:06.46 | *** join/#openmoko I-MOD_ (n=I-MOD@c-68-62-216-5.hsd1.al.comcast.net) |
| 16:06.51 | SpeedEvil | But flying from where they have good GPS coverage to make their INS accurate. |
| 16:06.53 | *** join/#openmoko El_Salvador (n=Brescia@adsl-ull-110-179.42-151.net24.it) |
| 16:06.54 | josch | jamming gps?? URL OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN! |
| 16:07.12 | Mononoke | josch: phrack |
| 16:07.13 | LittleIdiot | lol |
| 16:07.22 | *** join/#openmoko heikkit (n=chatzill@c-67-188-122-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 16:07.31 | cesarb | josch: http://www.gpsworld.com/gpsworld/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=43404&&pageID=1 |
| 16:07.38 | SpeedEvil | so yes the INS starts to drift as they come over your jammer field - but unless it's >> 1 hour, it doesn't really drift enough to make it hard. |
| 16:07.42 | *** join/#openmoko k-s (n=gustavo@189.70.111.89) |
| 16:07.43 | cesarb | josch: (source: wikipedia) |
| 16:08.00 | josch | there are no building i nstructions :-( |
| 16:08.07 | SpeedEvil | Consider even with coding gain that the GPS satellites broadcast about 50Kw over the entire earths surface. |
| 16:08.23 | Mononoke | 50kw hmm |
| 16:08.27 | SpeedEvil | a 10W jammer is inexpensive |
| 16:08.27 | Mononoke | enough to bake chicken :) |
| 16:08.50 | SpeedEvil | (the real power is 50W, the power you need to jam them is 50kW) |
| 16:08.51 | leila | bake... more like incinerate |
| 16:09.24 | leila | or... you just take out the satelite and be done with it ? |
| 16:09.24 | Mononoke | what would directed jamming do to satelite? let's say I would have some antena with ~50kW turned on satelite > |
| 16:09.39 | sydan | leila: not easy |
| 16:09.47 | leila | sydan, not impossible |
| 16:10.16 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@cpc1-acto9-0-0-cust931.brnt.cable.ntl.com) |
| 16:10.16 | leila | and way better price for missile vs price for sat ratio :) |
| 16:10.19 | sydan | leila: aside from control hacks, u need a missle that can make geo-sync? |
| 16:10.22 | Mononoke | and as there aren't so many satelites but you realy don't have problem to collect 50kW antenas and so.. |
| 16:11.29 | SpeedEvil | you don't need 50Kw - you need 50Kw * beamwidth at satellite |
| 16:11.42 | SpeedEvil | even with deep-space-network class dishes (34m) this is quite large |
| 16:12.57 | mwester | Meanwhile, back at the NSA, a bit of code running on a supercomputer in the basement has flagged this channel, and has begun to track/trace messages to the originators... :P |
| 16:13.17 | Mononoke | but is it even possible to do such thing like jamming directly the satelite? |
| 16:13.56 | SpeedEvil | http://groups.google.co.uk/group/sci.space.history/browse_thread/thread/302bbf6241b1f0be/ef309ade40b98cfa?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=%22gps+jamming%22+sci.space.policy#ef309ade40b98cfa |
| 16:13.59 | SpeedEvil | basically not |
| 16:14.11 | SpeedEvil | you can't jam the satellite without burning stuff on it out |
| 16:14.17 | leila | i wonder... high altitude plain + large microwave |
| 16:14.25 | leila | plane* |
| 16:14.29 | SpeedEvil | leila: do the numbers. |
| 16:14.39 | leila | i dont know the numbers |
| 16:14.49 | SpeedEvil | leila: you need a dish kilometers across to make an appreciable amount of the otuput energy hit the sat |
| 16:15.03 | SpeedEvil | From memory around 800Km at 2.4Ghz |
| 16:15.12 | leila | lol |
| 16:15.29 | mwester | And it needs to be out of the atmosphere, or the water vapor will absorb the energy. |
| 16:15.39 | leila | easier to build a laser i suppose |
| 16:15.53 | mwester | Lasers will be dispersed by the atmosphere. |
| 16:15.56 | SpeedEvil | mwester: naah - most microwaves get out of the atmosphere just fine. Hence satellite TV |
| 16:16.18 | Mononoke | hmm laser could actualy work :) |
| 16:16.21 | leila | mwester, they already can work around that by compensation |
| 16:16.26 | Mononoke | but that would be quite big laser |
| 16:16.28 | mwester | Bottom line is that it's still far more efficient to put something into orbit, manipulate it alongside the victim satellite, then blow it up. |
| 16:16.32 | *** join/#openmoko abraxa__ (n=abraxa@pD95FF8BD.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:16.36 | leila | large ... yes |
| 16:16.37 | SpeedEvil | mwester: err - no |
| 16:16.55 | Mononoke | getting anything on orbit is still quite expensive |
| 16:17.07 | SpeedEvil | mwester: it's more efficient to shoot something up to orbital altitude, and explode a payload of 5mm tungsten ball bearings in fron to fhte sat |
| 16:17.10 | Mononoke | and most of spy agencies know exact content of every rocket |
| 16:17.14 | mwester | Getting lasers or dishes that large is also quite expensive. |
| 16:17.22 | josch | SpeedEvil, seconded |
| 16:17.31 | Mononoke | so in short GPS seems to be safe :) |
| 16:17.43 | leila | yup |
| 16:17.47 | SpeedEvil | with the cloud density set to hit it with 20 or so bbs |
| 16:18.03 | OJW | SpeedEvil: how about some decoy targets instead? http://www.missileballoon.com/simulated.html |
| 16:18.05 | cesarb | josch: blowing sats up can cause a chain reaction which makes a large amount of orbits unusable for decades |
| 16:18.33 | SpeedEvil | OJW: the GPS sats are not able to dodge and their orbits are well-known to the cm. |
| 16:18.54 | SpeedEvil | however, getting something to GPS altitude is bloody hard. |
| 16:19.14 | SpeedEvil | Knocking down LEO stuff is possible for anyone that can make an IRBM |
| 16:19.46 | leila | cesarb has the best point in this conversation tho |
| 16:19.57 | Mononoke | imho easyer is hacking those sats while using some information from NASA, still seems to be more possible than builing large laser :) |
| 16:19.58 | cesarb | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_Syndrome |
| 16:20.36 | cesarb | Mononoke: the uplink for the gps sats is most likely encrypted (due to its original military main use) |
| 16:21.02 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: it's published that the sats can operate (in degraded mode) for weeks with no comms from earth |
| 16:21.30 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: the most recent ones can even compute a position between them to remove some sources of error. |
| 16:21.45 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: ranging between the sats to compute relative orbits. |
| 16:22.11 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: cool |
| 16:25.05 | mwester | Ooh - must have been an earthquake -- now at 232. |
| 16:25.15 | borg_ | :) |
| 16:25.16 | Writchie | vertical res is not that good |
| 16:25.20 | Writchie | without WAAS |
| 16:25.36 | borg_ | mwester: so you have a fix now? |
| 16:25.51 | mwester | Which of these figures give an idea of relative accuracy? |
| 16:26.18 | mwester | borg_: Yep, with sats directly overhead, and outside, it finally got a fix. :) |
| 16:26.26 | borg_ | nice :) |
| 16:26.47 | *** join/#openmoko erikwt (n=ewn@106-123.surfsnel.dsl.internl.net) |
| 16:27.46 | mwester | Interesting. It has 6 of them within the 45 degree arc overhead, but it has rejected one of those, and selected two far closer to the horizon. |
| 16:27.48 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@introspect.com) |
| 16:28.04 | cesarb | mwester: it also got several meters of variation in the vertical direction for me (not to mention when it decided I was standing over water, and when I try on a window it thinks I'm on the other side of the street) |
| 16:28.44 | Mononoke | btw is it possible to make Openmoko to triangulate positions of BTS while using GPS ? |
| 16:30.16 | erikwt | when will the 'more useful' version of the neo be launched? I thought it was october but i still see 'developer version'.. |
| 16:30.19 | Writchie | mwester: I don't think estimated error is in the standard NMEA output - sometimes its a proprietary sentence PGRME on garmin |
| 16:30.21 | Mononoke | GPS + map + position of BTS + signal strength from BTS = ideal debugging |
| 16:30.46 | Mononoke | not that most mobile companies already have such stuff |
| 16:30.48 | erikwt | sorry just read the title |
| 16:33.57 | cesarb | Writchie: there's a "dilution of position" thingy |
| 16:34.00 | DukeOfURL | good morning |
| 16:34.40 | DukeOfURL | why is openembedded creating directories in my /usr/src (owned by root)? |
| 16:35.01 | *** join/#openmoko mrcucumber (n=voorhees@reswlan251-246.wireless.stolaf.edu) |
| 16:35.51 | Writchie | cesarb: i think the dilution of position is horizontal onlly IIRC |
| 16:37.48 | SpeedEvil | vertical too |
| 16:38.05 | cesarb | Writchie: the reference I'm looking at shows separate horizontal and vertical DOP |
| 16:38.13 | cesarb | Writchie: there's also a "position" DOP |
| 16:38.15 | SpeedEvil | hdop and vdop is seperate |
| 16:38.26 | SpeedEvil | they are both really shortcuts |
| 16:38.44 | SpeedEvil | the 'right' measure is a wierd blobby shape with the error in each direction |
| 16:38.54 | Writchie | Looks like the GTGSA sentence has both |
| 16:39.17 | SpeedEvil | which tends to be widest where the position uncertainty around that axis is poorest |
| 16:40.10 | Writchie | and without WAAS the blob is bigger vertically |
| 16:40.24 | Writchie | usually - depending on the geometry |
| 16:40.25 | SpeedEvil | for ecample, if you're next to a (non-reflecting) wall, on a clear horizon, then with an even distribution of satellites, the worst uncertainty will be towards the wall and down |
| 16:40.31 | SpeedEvil | (on that axis) |
| 16:46.50 | *** join/#openmoko t_s_o (n=tso@33.84-49-135.nextgentel.com) |
| 16:48.30 | *** part/#openmoko sydan (n=Joyce@149.135.120.65) |
| 16:48.59 | cesarb | just thinking out loud: I'm thinking parts of gsmd would have to be moved to the kernel, so the kernel can always control the gsm power (knowing when and how to issue the @POFF command) |
| 16:50.55 | Writchie | cesarb: it's not so much power onoff as suspend/resume. |
| 16:51.29 | Writchie | to put the modem in gsm idle able to wakeup from presume requires stuff at the serial driver level. |
| 16:52.43 | Writchie | in general, not neo specific, it could also require things be done at GSM7.10 mux level, since that were the standard GSM sleep/awake stuff is specified. |
| 16:52.45 | *** join/#openmoko a__thing (n=notroot@c-98-193-50-46.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 16:52.52 | abraxa__ | mwester: Reason I pinged you was because I wondered if you had tested your kernel with a recent rootfs - from my (and other people's) experience, Alsa does not work with it =\ |
| 16:52.55 | *** join/#openmoko Neolink (n=Neolink@217.118.92.32) |
| 17:02.34 | *** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@140.77.128.140) |
| 17:03.07 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE001217b19226-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 17:08.09 | mwester | abraxa_: No, I've not tested recently. I guess I should take a look, but it will probably have to wait until later in the week, as I 'm on the road again for a while. |
| 17:08.12 | *** join/#openmoko rajivr (n=rajivr@host-5.63-99-122.dynamic.totalbb.net.tw) |
| 17:08.22 | *** join/#openmoko p3t3r (n=peter@dslb-088-070-189-133.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 17:08.43 | mrcucumber | Does the Hardware run faster than QEMU? |
| 17:09.03 | abraxa_ | mwester: Ah okay... and don't worry, the stock kernel does work as a replacement - just thought I'd let you know |
| 17:09.08 | abraxa_ | mrcucumber: Yes, definitely |
| 17:09.36 | Neolink | Hello |
| 17:09.37 | mrcucumber | That's good. |
| 17:09.51 | abraxa_ | Heya Neolink |
| 17:11.48 | Neolink | What |
| 17:12.10 | Neolink | What are you want |
| 17:12.19 | Neolink | ops |
| 17:12.32 | Neolink | I feel good |
| 17:13.34 | SpeedEvil | mrcucumber: ballpark - the hardware behaves as a P100, with a poor display card. |
| 17:13.51 | SpeedEvil | mrcucumber: the exception is memory bandwidth, which is much better than in P100 dayss |
| 17:17.09 | *** join/#openmoko hhf423 (n=chatzill@A74a1.a.strato-dslnet.de) |
| 17:18.59 | *** join/#openmoko ericthefish (n=ivan@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 17:19.25 | hhf423 | moin |
| 17:19.44 | hhf423 | openmoko server down? |
| 17:19.50 | hhf423 | or having problems? |
| 17:23.01 | abraxa_ | buildhost and wiki are working just fine here |
| 17:24.21 | hhf423 | ERROR |
| 17:24.22 | hhf423 | The requested URL could not be retrieved |
| 17:24.32 | abraxa_ | Which URL? |
| 17:24.34 | hhf423 | Generated Sun, 02 Dec 2007 17:37:25 GMT by openmoko.xelerance.com (squid/2.6.STABLE5) |
| 17:24.40 | hhf423 | any URL |
| 17:24.48 | abraxa_ | For what host? |
| 17:25.09 | borg_ | The following error was encountered: |
| 17:25.09 | borg_ | * Invalid Request |
| 17:25.11 | borg_ | mh |
| 17:25.21 | borg_ | just www.openmoko.org |
| 17:25.27 | hhf423 | yeah |
| 17:25.44 | borg_ | are they changing something? |
| 17:25.48 | hhf423 | it worked five minutes ago on my n770 |
| 17:26.36 | hhf423 | funny |
| 17:28.36 | hhf423 | nah, does totally not work here |
| 17:31.12 | roh | hhf423 you can try nailing 193.110.157.154 in as www.openmoko.org in your hosts file.. currently investigating |
| 17:31.30 | hhf423 | roh: ok, thanks. I was using google cache :-) |
| 17:32.20 | roh | seems one of the forwarding proxys makes problems, the rest should work |
| 17:34.38 | hhf423 | Installing gllin (1.0+r350-r0) to root... |
| 17:36.24 | *** join/#openmoko ZaPPaS (n=zappas@dslb-084-056-154-118.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 17:38.44 | roh | hhf423 gismo is checking it out. thanks for reporting |
| 17:39.39 | hhf423 | roh: np |
| 17:39.52 | roh | just remember, when something odd happens and you do not know of any moko-hackers around, just file a bug against the infrastructure in bugzilla. that way we guranteed get the info if we are on or not ;) |
| 17:40.10 | *** join/#openmoko Q_Continuum (n=Q@75-168-121-58.mpls.qwest.net) |
| 17:40.11 | hhf423 | roh: ah, ok |
| 17:41.02 | hhf423 | roh: say, at some point in time there were some king of "nightly builds" on openmoko buildhost. That has stopped. Is that going to be started again at some point? |
| 17:41.34 | roh | hhf423 i dunno do be fair, but yes, i want them also |
| 17:41.47 | hhf423 | I mean, using the community provided images is fine, but in a way you can not be sure how much they deviate from standard openmoko |
| 17:42.02 | hhf423 | roh: maybe you can take that up with someone? |
| 17:42.10 | roh | yes. we are currently working on a new snapshop (well.. mickey is) |
| 17:42.34 | hhf423 | roh: sure, but that would be one of the tested snapshots, right? |
| 17:42.34 | roh | and i think we should have these and nighly builds for people to try |
| 17:43.22 | hhf423 | uh, what does PGLOR,IGR,81.2,7,71397,0,1*02 mean when coming from gllin? |
| 17:43.25 | roh | snapshots are manually selected compositions. that also involves selecting the sane-svn revisions for everything and lots of testing (manual) |
| 17:44.23 | hhf423 | roh: I understand that, and its a good thing, because we can point beginners there. but if anyone does feel more like an adventure :-) |
| 17:44.31 | roh | now we got our own mtn repo which gets manually fed from org.oe.dev to get it more stable (for moko) and have less often broken builds |
| 17:44.58 | hhf423 | PGLOR,IGR,81.2,7,71413,0,1*09 |
| 17:45.39 | roh | hhf423 i think it would be best that you file the nightly builds as a bug. that way anybody can comment we an do not loose track |
| 17:46.07 | hhf423 | roh: ah, can do that |
| 17:46.15 | roh | tnx |
| 17:46.46 | SpeedEvil | hhf423: it seems to be a basic state reporting |
| 17:47.33 | SpeedEvil | the second field goes to 'FIX' when it's got a fix |
| 17:48.02 | roh | ah..its a NMEA private filed from GL ;) |
| 17:48.08 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 17:48.10 | roh | eh field |
| 17:48.15 | SpeedEvil | the info seems mostly there in other ways |
| 17:48.17 | roh | makes sense P GL OR |
| 17:49.08 | hhf423 | ah |
| 17:50.34 | *** join/#openmoko greentux_ (n=lemke@Z665f.z.pppool.de) |
| 17:51.36 | torpor | wtf? |
| 17:51.37 | torpor | NOTE: Task failed: /home/j/hak/openmoko/build/tmp/work/armv4t-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/openmoko-dates2-0.1.0+svnr661-r2/temp/log.do_configure.11234 |
| 17:51.44 | torpor | anyone able to complete a build this weekend? |
| 17:51.50 | torpor | whats going on, anyone know? |
| 17:53.03 | *** join/#openmoko fgau (n=fgau@pD9538F43.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:53.43 | hhf423 | torpor: from the community build, celtune has the most up to date |
| 17:54.00 | *** join/#openmoko jasd (n=jd@unaffiliated/jasd) |
| 17:54.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 1065 has been created by hndispatch-hhf423(AT)yahoo.de |
| 17:54.02 | cdbot2 | * * No nightly build available |
| 17:54.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1065 |
| 17:54.07 | torpor | i want to try to complete my own bild gainst the new openmoko mtn .. been running it for 2 days but it just crapped out. |
| 17:54.11 | torpor | anyone finished it? |
| 17:54.53 | *** join/#openmoko miip (n=miip@p54A5514C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:54.56 | hhf423 | the latest stuff still does not ask for PIN for me |
| 17:55.44 | hhf423 | is there any workaround? |
| 17:56.09 | hhf423 | I can see in the logs that there is a PIN request, but the GUI does not seem to pick it up |
| 17:56.09 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=khmhm@3e70d05a.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 17:57.28 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AFB21.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:57.34 | *** join/#openmoko n3tt3r (n=103189DE@85.127.168.245) |
| 17:59.36 | *** join/#openmoko zdanek (n=zdanek@ams122.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 17:59.41 | zdanek | hello all |
| 18:00.12 | zdanek | anybody is using ipkg with SD card to store installed files on? |
| 18:00.13 | hhf423 | hi zdanek |
| 18:01.00 | zdanek | hi |
| 18:01.17 | zdanek | I got some problems with linking installed files |
| 18:01.30 | zdanek | I do all according to the wiki |
| 18:03.17 | hhf423 | is it normal to get this error: ** (matchbox-panel-2:2124): DEBUG: battery_applet: timeout |
| 18:03.29 | *** join/#openmoko lalo (n=lalo@sourcemage/mage/lalo) |
| 18:03.52 | zdanek | and got errors |
| 18:05.26 | *** part/#openmoko Neolink (n=Neolink@217.118.92.32) |
| 18:05.34 | zdanek | hhf423: are you using ipkg with SD card? |
| 18:05.44 | hhf423 | zdanek: no |
| 18:06.12 | zdanek | anybody else does? |
| 18:06.28 | hhf423 | I think celtune does |
| 18:06.33 | *** part/#openmoko Tene (n=tene@poipu/supporter/slacker/tene) |
| 18:07.04 | *** join/#openmoko dinamich (n=damjan@ub141-7.static.adsl.volja.net) |
| 18:08.36 | *** join/#openmoko no_mind (n=shark@59.176.111.177) |
| 18:10.14 | hhf423 | so |
| 18:10.26 | hhf423 | just taped the neo to the window. hope it get a fix :-) |
| 18:10.41 | borg_ | :) |
| 18:11.23 | hhf423 | but why would I get that matchbox error? |
| 18:12.38 | hhf423 | hahaha |
| 18:12.39 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 18:12.45 | hhf423 | putin's party won |
| 18:12.52 | hhf423 | who would have guessed that? |
| 18:13.01 | borg_ | hrhr |
| 18:13.10 | hhf423 | in soviet russia, parties vote YOU! |
| 18:16.41 | zdanek | guys, I install gllin and I get ipkg: invalid magic |
| 18:16.58 | borg_ | zdanek: how big ist gllin? |
| 18:17.21 | zdanek | package is 10k |
| 18:17.27 | borg_ | hehe |
| 18:17.32 | borg_ | than make vi gllin |
| 18:17.35 | borg_ | or open it with firefox ;) |
| 18:17.35 | zdanek | after decompression? I don't know |
| 18:17.41 | borg_ | you probably downloaded the webpage |
| 18:17.45 | zdanek | ehee |
| 18:17.58 | borg_ | you cant copy the link and donwload it with wget or something similar |
| 18:18.07 | borg_ | because they want you to accept the eula |
| 18:18.16 | hhf423 | 1976050 2007-12-02 18:30 gllin_1.0+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk |
| 18:18.21 | borg_ | so download it with your browser and scp it to the neo or something |
| 18:18.42 | zdanek | sure! thx borg_ |
| 18:18.43 | zdanek | :D |
| 18:18.56 | hhf423 | hhf@hhf-desktop:~$ md5sum gllin_1.0+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk |
| 18:18.56 | hhf423 | 2019d71f72faa87501c56d99b470ea62 gllin_1.0+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk |
| 18:19.19 | *** join/#openmoko simon_ (n=simon@w208.wist.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 18:19.29 | DukeOfURL | FYI, pax_utils_native won't build if you have other arm tools on the system. I had to move my entire /usr/src directory out of the way before it would build. |
| 18:19.29 | zdanek | borg_: maybe you're using ipkg with SD card option? |
| 18:19.49 | borg_ | zdanek: i did |
| 18:20.00 | zdanek | but you don't anymore? |
| 18:20.34 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@M806c.m.pppool.de) |
| 18:21.35 | *** join/#openmoko Neolink (n=Neolink@217.118.92.32) |
| 18:23.02 | borg_ | zdanek: no, i boot from sd card now |
| 18:23.16 | zdanek | oh |
| 18:23.25 | borg_ | thats easier, you can just install all you need, there is always enough space ;) |
| 18:23.30 | zdanek | i have some "file not found"s |
| 18:23.36 | borg_ | and you can swap your installation with friends ;) |
| 18:23.40 | borg_ | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Booting_from_SD |
| 18:23.51 | zdanek | hmm |
| 18:24.12 | zdanek | so if I run OM from SD the files are stored there too? |
| 18:24.15 | torpor | i'm booting from SD .. its great. |
| 18:24.53 | zdanek | what about performance? SD is slower than flash |
| 18:24.57 | *** join/#openmoko faern (n=faern@faern.olf.sgsnet.se) |
| 18:26.04 | *** join/#openmoko Ace__ (n=Ace@lkr-141-162-209-82.3.cust.bredband2.com) |
| 18:26.14 | Ace__ | hey |
| 18:26.20 | Ace__ | how can I disable boot into gui? |
| 18:28.11 | balrog-kun | Ace__: change default runlevel to 3 in /etc/inittab i think |
| 18:28.24 | Ace__ | ok, cool |
| 18:29.33 | *** join/#openmoko jujun (n=JulienN@LPuteaux-151-42-19-56.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 18:29.36 | Ace__ | uh |
| 18:29.46 | Ace__ | what row exactly? |
| 18:30.20 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 18:30.28 | *** join/#openmoko jujun_ (n=JulienN@LPuteaux-151-42-19-56.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 18:30.42 | borg_ | # The default runlevel. |
| 18:30.43 | borg_ | id:5:initdefault: |
| 18:30.54 | borg_ | i would gess you have to change this to 3 |
| 18:32.24 | Ace__ | ok, testing |
| 18:32.27 | *** join/#openmoko metzenas (i=metzenas@a88-112-35-6.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 18:32.45 | Ace__ | where can I get info on what the numbers mean exactly? |
| 18:33.38 | DukeOfURL | Ace__: google linux runlevel |
| 18:34.25 | Ace__ | dont seem to help changing that to 3 |
| 18:34.52 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive_ (n=goxboxli@81.80-202-132.nextgentel.com) |
| 18:36.26 | Ace__ | or, hmm ok.. it stops at full bar on splash screen |
| 18:36.55 | *** join/#openmoko Pupeno (n=Pupeno@dsl-37-170.dsl.netsource.ie) |
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| 18:42.56 | *** part/#openmoko hobitti (n=hobitti@217.140.253.34) |
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| 18:59.35 | hhf423 | heh, cool. my Neo has a fix |
| 19:00.07 | hhf423 | it just needs a while of clear sky. window works as long as there is enough sky. |
| 19:00.28 | hhf423 | now we need GPS to set the clock of the phone |
| 19:02.19 | mwester | Ace__: disable psplash as well. |
| 19:03.43 | cesarb | hhf423: from my experience, after you got the first fix, you don't need that much sky anymore |
| 19:04.22 | Ace__ | mwester, how do I do that? |
| 19:05.04 | hhf423 | cesarb: yes, it looks like that. but closing the external blinds drives the signal down quite a bit :-) |
| 19:07.54 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@bas4-ottawa23-1177770726.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 19:07.58 | hhf423 | how many sats do I need for a fix? four? |
| 19:08.41 | cesarb | hhf423: three for a 2D fix, four for a 3D fix |
| 19:08.58 | Vegar | one for each dimension |
| 19:09.07 | cesarb | hhf423: (that's because it also needs to know an extra dimension, time) |
| 19:09.20 | hhf423 | ah, thanks |
| 19:09.36 | hhf423 | it seems to pick up time very fast |
| 19:09.50 | hhf423 | even without one sat going blue, no? |
| 19:10.38 | cesarb | hhf423: blue? |
| 19:11.07 | hhf423 | blue in openmoko-agpsui2 |
| 19:11.27 | cesarb | hhf423: dunno, I used "tail -f gllin/log/..." :D |
| 19:11.39 | cesarb | hhf423: (yeah, I was reading the NMEA directly :P ) |
| 19:12.25 | hhf423 | ah, then you should install that, nice tool |
| 19:13.21 | *** join/#openmoko StylusEater (n=adutko@ip70-191-114-7.cl.ri.cox.net) |
| 19:13.56 | StylusEater | What seems to be the most common application logic language for OpenMoko so far? |
| 19:14.06 | cesarb | ERROR: No providers of build target openmoko-agpsui2 |
| 19:14.20 | *** join/#openmoko dw (i=dmwdmw@unaffiliated/dw) |
| 19:14.42 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w-tablet (n=bob@M806c.m.pppool.de) |
| 19:15.48 | *** join/#openmoko blight (n=blight@droid.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 19:15.52 | mwester | Ace__: Several ways. easiest is to delete /etc/init.d/psplash |
| 19:16.12 | mwester | StylusEater: C |
| 19:16.19 | cesarb | and doing a fgrep for openmoko-agpsui2 on openembedded/packages returned 0 hits :( |
| 19:16.24 | cesarb | hhf423: where is that package? |
| 19:16.33 | StylusEater | mwester: so C (for app. logic) and GTK+ (for UI) |
| 19:16.54 | hhf423 | cesarb: see repositories in wiki, see celtune repro |
| 19:17.05 | mwester | Dunno about the UI, but C for app logic. There's been some talk about Python as well, but I don't think it's on the image yet. |
| 19:17.50 | StylusEater | mwester: Python was on the latest build I got from mokomakefile :-) |
| 19:17.52 | borg_ | StylusEater: all gui applications on the image are written in c with gtk as gui toolkit |
| 19:18.36 | hhf423 | how does a gps log line with a valid position start? |
| 19:18.39 | StylusEater | I'm trying to compare other development stacks out there to OpenMoko...one of the parts is app language and UI |
| 19:18.40 | borg_ | there are somehow lots of python develops around here, and lots of gtk application written in python |
| 19:18.49 | hhf423 | GPGSV? |
| 19:18.57 | borg_ | s/develops/developers/ |
| 19:18.59 | cesarb | hhf423: it starts the same as one without a valid position |
| 19:19.10 | cesarb | hhf423: GSV is the sats visible |
| 19:19.33 | cesarb | hhf423: look at GGA for the position |
| 19:19.54 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-138-240.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 19:20.02 | cesarb | hhf423: if GSA has "A,3" you have a 3D fix (A,2 is 2D fix and A,1 is no fix) |
| 19:20.10 | borg_ | StylusEater: e.g. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SettingsGUI this is python with gtk |
| 19:20.15 | StylusEater | mwester: thx |
| 19:20.24 | *** join/#openmoko retracile (n=eli@adsl-69-149-59-81.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 19:20.28 | StylusEater | borg_: all in python though, yes? |
| 19:20.37 | cesarb | hhf423: see http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/nmea.htm for the details |
| 19:20.42 | StylusEater | borg_: but access some c libs I assume |
| 19:20.48 | borg_ | of course |
| 19:20.57 | cesarb | hhf423: another good one is http://gpsd.berlios.de/NMEA.txt |
| 19:21.00 | borg_ | they are using the python bindings of gtk |
| 19:23.44 | StylusEater | borg_: thx |
| 19:27.33 | hhf423 | cesarb: thanks |
| 19:28.47 | *** join/#openmoko Pupeno- (n=Pupeno@dsl-37-170.dsl.netsource.ie) |
| 19:29.02 | *** join/#openmoko bentob0x (n=laurent@ip-213-49-79-14.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 19:29.30 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 19:30.42 | roh | http://downloads.openmoko.org/snapshots/2007.11/ |
| 19:30.55 | roh | mickey just released a new snapshop |
| 19:30.58 | roh | eh shot |
| 19:31.07 | blight | all, is it worth purchasing the Neo 1973 as it is now - or is there a newer version imminent for release with better hardware? just trying to determine if now is a good time to purchase one ... |
| 19:31.53 | borg_ | blight: that is hard to say, because it is unknown when the newer version will be ready |
| 19:32.23 | borg_ | blight: but you can't use the ols version of the neo as an every day phone at the moment |
| 19:32.24 | edistar | borg_: how long would you be prepared to wait for the next device? |
| 19:32.38 | blight | borg_: i see - I suspected as much - wasn't sure if there was a known date or not |
| 19:33.07 | blight | borg_: that's fine - seems like a nice toy to hack on - something for the holidays to play with |
| 19:33.27 | borg_ | don't know, my guess is february |
| 19:33.43 | borg_ | i think the latest official date from the fic guys is end of december |
| 19:34.06 | mrcucumber | can I use the makefile to get the new snapshot? |
| 19:34.20 | blight | borg_: would that be GTA02? |
| 19:34.26 | borg_ | mrcucumber: just do a normal make update |
| 19:34.35 | edistar | blight: yes |
| 19:34.36 | borg_ | mrcucumber: you have the new version allready probably ;) |
| 19:34.59 | mrcucumber | borg_: okay |
| 19:36.08 | *** join/#openmoko miip_ (n=miip@p54A56210.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:36.56 | *** join/#openmoko drath (i=vmaster@p5B07E2E0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:41.28 | *** join/#openmoko Gybrush (n=Gybrush@f053153155.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 19:41.46 | cesarb | hm, I do not _have_ to upgrade uboot to the november snapshot... but is there any benefit I would get from upgrading it? |
| 19:43.31 | cesarb | (btw, roh forgot to link to http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-December/011980.html which is the announcement) |
| 19:44.35 | *** join/#openmoko mboldisc (n=mike@c-66-41-225-167.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 19:45.18 | *** part/#openmoko Neolink (n=Neolink@217.118.92.32) |
| 19:47.37 | *** join/#openmoko mwester-laptop (n=mwester@gw.mwester.net) |
| 19:50.51 | Writchie | cesarb: you need a version with at least svn 3147 to get the charge current in slow charge to 100ma instead of <50ma |
| 19:51.17 | Writchie | but I'm not sure of any known good u-boots |
| 19:51.38 | cesarb | Writchie: well, a "snapshot" uboot is supposed to be a good one, right? ;-) |
| 19:51.49 | cesarb | (the august snapshot one has worked very well so far) |
| 19:51.57 | Writchie | i would assume that november is the last good snapshot. |
| 19:52.07 | Writchie | but it doesn't have the charge fix. |
| 19:52.31 | Writchie | AFIK from the date |
| 19:52.47 | *** join/#openmoko ckuethe (n=ckuethe@S0106000024c38a18.ed.shawcable.net) |
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| 19:53.26 | Writchie | i don't know the statuts of the uboot image in the this new snapshot |
| 19:53.34 | cesarb | Writchie: it's u-boot-gta01bv4-1.3.0+git20071201+svnr3484-r0.bin, so if the fix is on 3147, it should have the fix |
| 19:54.03 | Writchie | but the big question is this version problem free. |
| 19:54.08 | borg_ | cesarb: the uboot of the image is probably testet, so you can't brick your phone with it |
| 19:54.11 | Writchie | SD for example |
| 19:54.23 | borg_ | i don't know which fixes it contains and which not |
| 19:54.29 | borg_ | s/image/snapshot/ |
| 19:54.29 | cesarb | Writchie: yeah, it's a good question, which will probably be known soon ;-) |
| 19:55.39 | Writchie | anybody know if there will be source rev level exactly equivalent to the snapshot images? |
| 19:57.20 | Writchie | BTW: this is a development snapshot - might not be stable. |
| 19:57.52 | Writchie | would really be nice to build ontop of at least a declared "stable" u-boot and kernel patchset. |
| 20:00.20 | *** join/#openmoko hhf423 (n=chatzill@A74a1.a.strato-dslnet.de) |
| 20:00.30 | hhf423 | so |
| 20:00.51 | hhf423 | now that I have a GPS fix, how do I convert the GPGGA line into something google maps understands? |
| 20:01.25 | Writchie | cesarb: readme implies august u-boot is OK and november is unknown. |
| 20:02.29 | mmontour | I'm running an up-to-date uboot. It has the bug where it hangs on boot unless you boot from the Aux menu, and the crash when trying to read from the SD card |
| 20:02.47 | Writchie | svnr ? |
| 20:02.59 | cesarb | Writchie: I read it different. For me, the readme implies pre-august u-boot will not work, but you don't need november u-boot since august u-boot will work |
| 20:04.31 | Writchie | cesarb: i was assuming that since it says that if you have pre-august you SHOULD update to August (not November) I'm assuming the status of November is uncertain. |
| 20:04.51 | cesarb | Writchie: makes sense |
| 20:04.53 | mmontour | u-boot-gta01bv4-1.2.0+git20071201+svnr3484-r2.bin (although it's actually 1.3.0 - the bitbake recipe seems to be out of date) |
| 20:04.54 | *** join/#openmoko jpieper (n=jpieper@207-180-187-171.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com) |
| 20:04.59 | Writchie | i agree it implies that pre-august may not work. |
| 20:05.15 | Writchie | but that may due to accidental NAND-ERASE stuff. |
| 20:05.41 | Writchie | is August known stable and does it have the SD problems |
| 20:06.09 | cesarb | Writchie: august is very stable, but it's also... old. |
| 20:06.25 | Writchie | does it boot OK from SD? |
| 20:06.35 | cesarb | Writchie: as in "doesn't have all the cool cutting-edge features you CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT!!!!11one" |
| 20:07.01 | Writchie | cesarb: but don't work ;) |
| 20:07.05 | cesarb | Writchie: never tried, but I think it boots OK (perhaps doesn't work with as many SD cards as a more recent one, however) |
| 20:07.49 | Writchie | i'll guess i'll try the August on one and the current snapshot on the other. |
| 20:08.17 | Writchie | hate to give up the original load out of the box because that is still the most stable for low-level work. |
| 20:09.01 | hhf423 | ah |
| 20:09.10 | hhf423 | cesarb: maybe small RWIN? |
| 20:09.59 | cesarb | hhf423: with linux's crazy autotuning rwin stuff and several tcp streams? unlikely. most likely is that they lost the configuration of whatever controls the bandwidth like last time. |
| 20:10.25 | *** join/#openmoko Gybrush (n=Gybrush@f053153201.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 20:10.25 | cesarb | hhf423: either that or someone is doing several heavy downloads nearby |
| 20:11.10 | hhf423 | cesarb: or the host you are getting data from is loaded |
| 20:11.44 | cesarb | hhf423: I have two torrents, two downloads, and reading from the archives at lists.openmoko.org... |
| 20:12.28 | Writchie | i'm seeing 435KB from openmoko so that's not a problem. |
| 20:13.49 | Writchie | s/435KB/435KBPS/ |
| 20:28.48 | zdanek | OJW: how to zoom in in pyroute? |
| 20:29.56 | OJW | it's changed now, it's click top-right to zoom in, click top-centre to zoom out |
| 20:30.11 | Vegar | so no more smooth zooming? |
| 20:30.18 | OJW | now that all the map images are drawn "correct size" (no rescaling) |
| 20:30.43 | OJW | well, cairo doesn't seem to have noticed. I was hoping it would speed-up a lot when it didn't have to rescale |
| 20:30.52 | *** join/#openmoko aeshyamae (i=shyam@59.91.255.35) |
| 20:32.43 | zdanek | OJW: what are these three areas over dotted line? |
| 20:33.16 | OJW | the 3 buttons. menu, zoom-out, zoom-in |
| 20:33.16 | zdanek | 3 buttons? |
| 20:33.20 | zdanek | yeah |
| 20:33.22 | zdanek | :D |
| 20:33.31 | zdanek | cool idea |
| 20:33.56 | OJW | are you using it on a neo? |
| 20:34.00 | zdanek | yes |
| 20:34.02 | zdanek | right now |
| 20:34.12 | zdanek | and I'm fighting with glliin to get my pos |
| 20:34.15 | OJW | is it any less slow? |
| 20:34.24 | zdanek | than before? |
| 20:34.32 | zdanek | I didn't use it before |
| 20:34.36 | OJW | ok |
| 20:34.58 | OJW | I guess you only notice if you're dragging the map or sketching |
| 20:35.07 | zdanek | it's quite slow sometimes but I'm installing a lot of packages in background so it's hard to check |
| 20:35.13 | zdanek | yes |
| 20:36.23 | aeshyamae | hi all can i get all the essential softwares related to openmoko downloaded from a place?is there any cd or so?means i would like to pass all the softwares to my friend who is also gonna start with openmoko but dont have any internet connection..( i have 3 debian etch dvds for him) |
| 20:38.02 | *** join/#openmoko Virtuall (n=virtuall@87.110.198.224) |
| 20:39.07 | cesarb | aeshyamae: the sdk is not ready yet, in the meantime you could get mokomakefile, build everything ("make all") which will as a side effect download everything you need into sources/, (optionally) clean the build (make clean) which will not erase the sources (but only what was built), and ship it to him |
| 20:39.26 | zdanek | OJW: I've found some kind of bug |
| 20:39.45 | zdanek | if I zoom in, all screen gets white |
| 20:39.59 | zdanek | okay- because it's thinking and thinking... |
| 20:40.17 | zdanek | but if I sketch like to move map |
| 20:40.23 | zdanek | it rapidly comes back |
| 20:40.43 | *** join/#openmoko Marex-notebook (n=marex@vasut.kolej.mff.cuni.cz) |
| 20:40.51 | cesarb | aeshyamae: that will still miss the official images (make download-images) and the splash file for the qemu build (that only gets downloaded on make flash-neo-official or make flash-neo-local, and is clobbered by make clean) |
| 20:40.55 | mrcucumber | any thoughts about pyroute vs. navit? |
| 20:40.59 | zdanek | if I don't touch screen after pushing zoom-in - it don't comes back |
| 20:41.25 | zdanek | I didn't use navit |
| 20:41.37 | zdanek | I should check it if it's on OM |
| 20:44.11 | aeshyamae | cesarb: ook i am trying.. make all, make download-images, make flash-neo-official, and cleaning up.... |
| 20:44.33 | zdanek | OJW: got that bug? |
| 20:44.40 | *** part/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 20:46.05 | cesarb | aeshyamae: cleaning up will clear the downloaded splash image from flash-neo-official, it would be best to not clean up qemu (use make clean-openembedded instead of make clean) |
| 20:46.17 | *** join/#openmoko StealthCP (n=StealthC@user-54459831.lns1-c13.telh.dsl.pol.co.uk) |
| 20:47.02 | aeshyamae | cesarb: oo thanks.. |
| 20:47.10 | aeshyamae | cesarb: i am on the way:) |
| 20:47.12 | cesarb | aeshyamae: and I can't guarantee it will all work offline... never tried it (you will have all the files you need, but I don't know if bitbake will for instance try to contact some server). Your friend might need to hack on things a bit to make them work. |
| 20:48.04 | aeshyamae | cesarb: ok no problem..i shall try this atleast.. |
| 20:49.29 | zdanek | yes, navit is on OM |
| 20:58.20 | *** join/#openmoko Q_Continuum (n=Q@75-168-108-104.mpls.qwest.net) |
| 20:59.55 | *** join/#openmoko ptw (n=iamsanan@75-1-65-124.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net) |
| 20:59.57 | ptw | "Seems like spam could be used to actually get a message out in a very quick and widespread way about injustice, working for peace, and other political issues. Why hasn't this happened yet? Spamming is so easy and inexpensive - seems like a perfect tool for subversion." |
| 20:59.58 | ptw | WORLD PEACE THROUGH MARIJUANA www.havethisbook.com very interesting FREE non-fiction, enjoy, newly updated! |
| 20:59.59 | ptw | :] |
| 21:01.01 | OJW | zdanek: ok, so sometimes it doesn't redraw? |
| 21:02.00 | zdanek | OJW: it always doesnt redraw |
| 21:02.03 | nbd | ptw: well, the average spam clicker probably cares more about viagra than world peace :P |
| 21:02.05 | zdanek | I click zoom |
| 21:02.07 | zdanek | zoom in |
| 21:02.22 | zdanek | and after 2sec. it goes blank |
| 21:02.35 | zdanek | if I click somewhere on map it redraw |
| 21:02.36 | zdanek | s |
| 21:02.38 | OJW | I can reproduce that on my PC, so I can have a look |
| 21:02.52 | zdanek | if I don't click it remains blank |
| 21:04.01 | OJW | are the clicks reliable on pyroute on the neo? does it ever ignore clicks in the menu? |
| 21:04.58 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@cpc1-acto9-0-0-cust931.brnt.cable.ntl.com) |
| 21:05.07 | zdanek | it ignores sometimes clicks on menu-button |
| 21:05.18 | OJW | ok, thanks |
| 21:05.47 | zdanek | OJW: is it possinble to put some own POIs on the map? |
| 21:05.49 | *** part/#openmoko ptw (n=iamsanan@75-1-65-124.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:05.58 | zdanek | some kind of defining own POI |
| 21:06.27 | OJW | you can click on the map and "bookmark" |
| 21:06.33 | zdanek | I have access to vehicle tracking system and I'd like to put car icon on map and refresh it realtime |
| 21:06.57 | OJW | oh, if you want a custom POI layer, then just look at poi_*.py and modify one of them to read your data |
| 21:08.06 | *** part/#openmoko jasd (n=jd@unaffiliated/jasd) |
| 21:09.38 | zdanek | OJW: can you give me your email to ask some questions as they appear in the future? |
| 21:11.08 | OJW | openmoko@blibbleblobble.co.uk |
| 21:11.27 | zdanek | thx |
| 21:12.33 | *** join/#openmoko norro_ (n=norro@port-87-234-155-81.dynamic.qsc.de) |
| 21:13.20 | zdanek | okay, goodnight folks |
| 21:18.29 | *** part/#openmoko edistar (n=edistar@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 21:24.43 | *** join/#openmoko Mathiasdm (n=mathias@vpna081.ugent.be) |
| 21:26.01 | flexd | uhm, could someone link me a .glade file? |
| 21:26.21 | flexd | doesnt matter what the window looks like really, just need to test something :z |
| 21:27.47 | *** part/#openmoko dinamich (n=damjan@ub141-7.static.adsl.volja.net) |
| 21:31.52 | xkr47 | heh, install glade :) |
| 21:32.15 | josch | flexd, I could give you the .glade of pyphone |
| 21:32.19 | flexd | yes please :D |
| 21:32.30 | xkr47 | http://www.gnome.org/~newren/tutorials/developing-with-gnome/html/apb.html |
| 21:32.30 | flexd | xkr47: windows machine, lazy etc etc :p |
| 21:32.32 | xkr47 | google also helps :) |
| 21:32.33 | josch | flexd, http://rabenfrost.net/openmoko/glade.glade |
| 21:32.56 | josch | flexd, looks like this: http://rabenfrost.net/openmoko/pyPhone_Dialer.png |
| 21:32.56 | xkr47 | (I googled: example .glade) |
| 21:32.59 | flexd | xkr47: I have no problem finding, just wanted a .glade file ;) |
| 21:33.09 | xkr47 | strange... |
| 21:33.14 | xkr47 | if you had no problem, then.... :O |
| 21:33.19 | flexd | <- lazy |
| 21:34.13 | flexd | Just moving from python -> c |
| 21:34.19 | flexd | with all my code, reworking *some* stuff :p |
| 21:34.47 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@rn083002.morris.umn.edu) |
| 21:35.17 | xkr47 | flexd: good luck.. there is #gtk+ on freenode and gimpnet with people that can help if you have problems |
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| 22:03.20 | emdete | i am still playing around with gps. now i wonder about a NMEA sentence typ GGA which contains a fix of 6. all documents state fix may be 0, 1 and 2. why does gllin send 6? what does that mean? does someone know? |
| 22:04.02 | SpeedEvil | waas? |
| 22:04.10 | SpeedEvil | though I thought it was not supported |
| 22:05.37 | *** join/#openmoko Mathiasdm (n=mathias@vpna081.ugent.be) |
| 22:06.18 | emdete | SpeedEvil: explain... |
| 22:07.39 | OJW | doesn't it send "8" when it's in demo mode? |
| 22:07.57 | SpeedEvil | dunno |
| 22:08.10 | emdete | OJW: may be, it sends 6 when it signal quality gets bad. |
| 22:08.44 | OJW | garmin ones send 8 when the GPS is turned off and they're simulating movement. so maybe it's a code for some special situation like that |
| 22:09.02 | emdete | then, if it gets better, fix gets 0 and if it knows where it is again it gets 1 again |
| 22:09.15 | SpeedEvil | I'll also note that my car nav system sends 6 occasionally too |
| 22:09.30 | SpeedEvil | 1/1000th of points are 6 for that |
| 22:10.48 | emdete | may that be a kind of 'on hold' or something? used by navigation systems that are connected to car speed? |
| 22:11.23 | SpeedEvil | no |
| 22:11.55 | emdete | what else? its reproducable that 6 comes if it cant see any satellites |
| 22:11.57 | *** join/#openmoko t_s_o (n=tso@33.84-49-135.nextgentel.com) |
| 22:12.10 | SpeedEvil | of the neo - several tracks - I have 9000 '1' 938 '00' and 6 '3' |
| 22:12.11 | OJW | maybe that it's dead-reckoning? |
| 22:12.36 | SpeedEvil | gah |
| 22:15.34 | SpeedEvil | Ok - my carnav syste. 340K points 1, 690 6s, 4750 blank |
| 22:16.09 | SpeedEvil | my neo - 2700 6's, 27k '00s' 95K '1' |
| 22:16.43 | josch | 00s = blank? |
| 22:16.49 | SpeedEvil | so it no |
| 22:16.51 | SpeedEvil | no |
| 22:18.01 | SpeedEvil | actually "00" |
| 22:19.20 | SpeedEvil | and in the carnav system, actually blank |
| 22:23.00 | SpeedEvil | so 1/2 of my GPSs send '0' when they have no fix, one sends "00" one sends "" |
| 22:23.14 | SpeedEvil | seems you need to be liberal in what you accept |
| 22:23.24 | emdete | SpeedEvil: and the neo seems to send '6'... |
| 22:23.52 | SpeedEvil | No - 6 is less common than '0' |
| 22:24.17 | *** join/#openmoko t_s_o (n=tso@33.84-49-135.nextgentel.com) |
| 22:24.41 | emdete | that may be, but if i cover my neo and it can't see any sat it says '6', if it again sees sats but has no fix it says '0' |
| 22:26.29 | emdete | hm, and it send sentences with $PGLOR,FIX or ,IGR... what's that? |
| 22:26.34 | *** join/#openmoko Marex-notebook (n=marex@vasut.kolej.mff.cuni.cz) |
| 22:26.44 | SpeedEvil | looking at the dumps |
| 22:26.55 | SpeedEvil | it looks like 6 is 'signal interrupted |
| 22:27.07 | SpeedEvil | if the signal is interrupted too long it gives no fix |
| 22:27.14 | SpeedEvil | if it comes back it immedaiteyl goes to fix |
| 22:27.21 | SpeedEvil | Well... |
| 22:27.32 | cesarb | emdete: going by the normal way NMEA is parsed, it would be a LOR sentence sent for something of type PG (GPS is GP) |
| 22:27.33 | SpeedEvil | I'd really ignore that unless you have a pressing need. |
| 22:27.42 | *** join/#openmoko HellDragon (i=jd@unaffiliated/helldragon) |
| 22:27.49 | cesarb | emdete: I'd guess LOR is LORAN... |
| 22:27.51 | SpeedEvil | just use GPGGA, GPRMC |
| 22:27.58 | *** join/#openmoko menace (n=deknos@unaffiliated/menace) |
| 22:28.05 | SpeedEvil | I really doubt that |
| 22:28.20 | SpeedEvil | it's some sort of status |
| 22:28.36 | emdete | SpeedEvil: shure... its just out of curiosity... ;) |
| 22:28.43 | SpeedEvil | it occurs first in every file |
| 22:28.43 | emdete | cesarb: do you have docs? |
| 22:29.08 | emdete | SpeedEvil: i get it all the time... 20 or more with FIX then one with IGR |
| 22:29.25 | cesarb | emdete: only what I got from wikipedia (on the NMEA article) |
| 22:29.30 | SpeedEvil | yes, it also occurs in the middle of files |
| 22:30.11 | SpeedEvil | IGR = I'm Guessing Right now |
| 22:31.32 | cesarb | hm, it seems to have some structure... pairs of key,value |
| 22:32.02 | cesarb | my first one has FIX,964.3 and then it goes FIX,1.0 |
| 22:32.18 | cesarb | $PGLOR,FIX,964.3,TR,964.3,ST,U,NS,A,DR,N,PS,A*03 <- my very first one |
| 22:32.56 | SpeedEvil | the first line of every log is $PGLOR,RID,GLL,182,5,023*4D |
| 22:32.58 | SpeedEvil | for me |
| 22:33.28 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: mine too, was looking only at the part where it got the fix |
| 22:34.02 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: perhaps that one is some sort of version... |
| 22:36.03 | emdete | strange, my FIX has always 1.0 in the next field... |
| 22:37.10 | cesarb | found another with something other than 1.0: $PGLOR,FIX,32.0,ST,U,NS,A,DR,N,PS,A*1A |
| 22:38.00 | cesarb | in fact, the first FIX after recovering signal has something other than 1.0, at least for me |
| 22:38.09 | cesarb | (and at least on this log) |
| 22:40.29 | cesarb | it's a pity we can't just RTFS :( |
| 22:41.47 | xkr47 | RTFREB |
| 22:42.09 | josch | RTFM? |
| 22:42.32 | cesarb | josch: there is no M |
| 22:42.59 | josch | lol I should really read the f**** manual :-) |
| 22:43.39 | SpeedEvil | or you could work on reverse engineering the chip protocol. :) |
| 22:44.19 | cesarb | and it's really a pity we can't change the way the calculation is done... some math geek might be able to for instance devise a more devious anti-multipath filter, for instance |
| 22:44.34 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 22:45.49 | cesarb | Or, more in my field of knowledge, better integrate the calculation loop with the power management _and_ with a ntp-style time update (adjtime) |
| 22:47.07 | cesarb | I doubt they used something like gtk's NOHZ-friendly timeout routine (which rounds the timeout in a certain way to reduce the number of wakeups) |
| 22:47.45 | *** join/#openmoko ajbrun (n=ajbrun@host86-153-109-112.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 22:48.01 | SpeedEvil | preliminary guesswork gave me a result of it being plausible to wakeup from timer every 3 min for 1s sor so and compute it. |
| 22:48.18 | SpeedEvil | this would be a maybe 10m accurate position. |
| 22:48.25 | SpeedEvil | which gives about 8 months life |
| 22:49.43 | SpeedEvil | (this assumes a smart pre-boot system, and the system actually suspended-disk) |
| 22:49.51 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: btw, do you know what work has been done in the power management front in these weeks I was mostly away? |
| 22:50.20 | SpeedEvil | Ok. Detailed breakdown: |
| 22:50.26 | SpeedEvil | that's it |
| 22:50.31 | SpeedEvil | well - not quite |
| 22:50.36 | *** join/#openmoko ajbrun (n=ajbrun@host86-153-109-112.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 22:50.43 | SpeedEvil | there is a patch to GSMd to turn the modem off |
| 22:50.47 | SpeedEvil | as I understand it |
| 22:51.04 | emdete | no frequency stuff? |
| 22:51.14 | SpeedEvil | not as I understand it |
| 22:51.23 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@124-171-163-204.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 22:51.50 | *** join/#openmoko ajbrun (n=ajbrun@host86-153-109-112.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 22:51.50 | SpeedEvil | there is also a big open question in why the modem module is drawing some 3-5 times more than it should |
| 22:51.54 | Writchie | nothing in the serial driver to support wakeup AFAIK |
| 22:51.58 | SpeedEvil | (when the phone is off) |
| 22:52.19 | SpeedEvil | which means 2, not 10 days standby with the phone off and modem on |
| 22:52.44 | emdete | i don't see the solution in standby anyway :/ |
| 22:52.54 | SpeedEvil | what? |
| 22:53.03 | SpeedEvil | what solution rather |
| 22:53.33 | Writchie | SpeedEvil: I don't think the modem can go into the lower power mode of GSM idle until the handshake take places. Otherwise it has to be ready to instantly accept commands over the interface. |
| 22:53.34 | emdete | i'm okay with a phone that need power every... say 20h. but it need to be able to be steady on |
| 22:53.47 | *** join/#openmoko ajbrun (n=ajbrun@host86-153-109-112.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 22:53.55 | SpeedEvil | emdete: why does it need to be on? |
| 22:54.06 | emdete | ...and play music some hours of that |
| 22:54.12 | SpeedEvil | emdete: for music, yes. |
| 22:54.21 | emdete | SpeedEvil: my app gets events from internet |
| 22:54.21 | SpeedEvil | For most other tasks, no. |
| 22:54.39 | *** join/#openmoko ajbrun (n=ajbrun@host86-153-109-112.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 22:54.52 | SpeedEvil | in principle that can do wake on incoming packet |
| 22:54.55 | emdete | if you can wake it up fast enough and keep a steady internet connection i'm finewith standby also |
| 22:55.07 | SpeedEvil | in practice - ... |
| 22:55.07 | *** join/#openmoko Mathiasdm (n=mathias@vpna232.ugent.be) |
| 22:55.48 | SpeedEvil | However. It looks like it can hit 8-10 hours, even with the CPU at 100Mhz |
| 22:56.06 | SpeedEvil | at 12Mhz, with the clocks set right, it should be considerably lwer |
| 22:56.37 | Writchie | AFAIK it will consume more than the 10mw maintaining a GPRS attach |
| 22:56.47 | emdete | for a prototype like the gta01 i would be more than happy with 8h for my app. it just a proof of concept anyway |
| 22:57.26 | emdete | so, i will seek for bed now.. have a good night (or whatever daytime) |
| 22:57.28 | emdete | bye |
| 22:58.42 | ajbrun | i know the topic says not to talk about gta02 (not expecting a release date or anything), but is GTA02 supposed to be the same version that's to go on general release? |
| 22:58.57 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: are they at least trying to do a better power mgmt job on '02? |
| 22:59.24 | SpeedEvil | At the moment, as I understand it, there is little work on anything but the core drivers. |
| 23:00.35 | SpeedEvil | the X driver for example is a big lump of code. |
| 23:01.19 | ajbrun | lol - i was reading that comic a few nights ago |
| 23:01.58 | ajbrun | http://xkcd.com/327/ <---- i like that 1 :p |
| 23:03.56 | josch | cesarb, lmao |
| 23:04.44 | josch | ajbrun, yeah when I showed this to my friends everyone suddenly understood what sql injections are |
| 23:04.57 | Writchie | GSM idle (on similar device with calypso) shows GPRS IDLE as 2.4ma avg 140ma peak |
| 23:05.32 | SpeedEvil | avg? |
| 23:05.39 | Writchie | 2.4 avg |
| 23:05.45 | SpeedEvil | oh |
| 23:06.03 | Writchie | its 154mA peak for GSM, 140mA peak for GPRS |
| 23:06.04 | SpeedEvil | so that's 400h standby? |
| 23:06.11 | Writchie | both are 600u |
| 23:06.17 | Writchie | min |
| 23:06.19 | SpeedEvil | (with the battery) |
| 23:06.27 | SpeedEvil | which is damn good - if... |
| 23:06.44 | Writchie | yes - especially if the rest is 100ua as you reported. |
| 23:06.54 | SpeedEvil | I don't suppose you've got access to the serial lines on that? |
| 23:07.00 | SpeedEvil | to see what it's being sent |
| 23:07.03 | Writchie | yes |
| 23:07.10 | Writchie | if the wakeup stuff has been done |
| 23:07.22 | SpeedEvil | what is the wakeup stuff? |
| 23:07.34 | SpeedEvil | states of the serial lines? |
| 23:07.40 | Writchie | yes |
| 23:07.46 | Writchie | need to drop RTS |
| 23:08.05 | SpeedEvil | drop - as in to 0V? |
| 23:08.09 | Writchie | and after some delay (I presume) the chip will do into suspend. |
| 23:08.13 | Writchie | logic low |
| 23:08.28 | Writchie | and give us an EINT when it has activity |
| 23:08.44 | Writchie | and will then start sending when RTS goes high |
| 23:08.46 | SpeedEvil | what's the serial commands that need to be sent? |
| 23:08.55 | Writchie | none |
| 23:09.07 | SpeedEvil | I mean to enable this mode. |
| 23:09.49 | SpeedEvil | if none - that's odd, as it does not suspend when the CPU is off |
| 23:09.51 | Writchie | the standard has this done by the mux code but that doesn't work. FIC modified the code apparently for the handshake using RTS and a GPIO pin from the modem (which is wired to an EINT on the SoC). |
| 23:10.08 | SpeedEvil | and at that time the CPU has no voltage on the serial pins |
| 23:10.25 | Writchie | usless the GPIO on the SoC has been reprogrammed, the inputs will float high |
| 23:10.57 | SpeedEvil | Is it possible to program it so that it keeps it low - even though as I thought the whole GPIO is unpowered? |
| 23:10.58 | Writchie | or driven high from their last state - can't tell for sure |
| 23:11.20 | Writchie | accoring to specs the GPIO outputs are powered during suspend. |
| 23:11.48 | Writchie | they can be inputs of outputs with pull ups or pull downs. |
| 23:11.56 | SpeedEvil | Suspend isn't off though. |
| 23:12.20 | Writchie | Suspend will have the SDRAM in self refresh which should not be too bad. |
| 23:12.29 | SpeedEvil | oh yeah - I forgot about that mode |
| 23:12.29 | Writchie | SoC itself will be basically leakage current |
| 23:12.41 | SpeedEvil | 2AI was thinking of the one higher. |
| 23:12.43 | SpeedEvil | 'idle' |
| 23:13.18 | Writchie | suspend is really "POWER OFF" with only one of the 2 power supplies. |
| 23:13.30 | Writchie | OFF AFAIK is both power supplies off |
| 23:14.16 | Writchie | the basic problem is that all hardware state has to be restored. |
| 23:14.28 | Writchie | and this is not the normal linux driver architecture |
| 23:14.32 | SpeedEvil | yeah. So off is suspend-disk |
| 23:14.49 | SpeedEvil | what does OLPC do! |
| 23:14.52 | Writchie | yeah - its really more like suspend-disk from software point of view |
| 23:15.21 | SpeedEvil | Which was stopping the machine resuming 1/100kth of the time |
| 23:15.22 | Writchie | who? |
| 23:15.28 | SpeedEvil | OLPC |
| 23:15.35 | Writchie | yes - they had some hardware bugs |
| 23:15.37 | SpeedEvil | One Laptop Per Child |
| 23:15.48 | Writchie | noise I think |
| 23:16.16 | Writchie | more gotcha's can be expected here because the hardware is still not verified (not even GTA01). |
| 23:16.21 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 23:17.12 | Writchie | ATM I think the only real unknowns are the modem serial and the USB. |
| 23:17.39 | SpeedEvil | USB? |
| 23:17.41 | cesarb | Writchie: ah, but these are the _known_ unknowns. What about the _unknown_ unknowns? |
| 23:17.45 | Writchie | for BT |
| 23:17.46 | SpeedEvil | the bluetooth? |
| 23:18.05 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: /me is in the minority with agreeing wholeheartedly with that speech. |
| 23:18.09 | anrp | its too ... meta! |
| 23:18.11 | Writchie | cesarb: the other gotchas |
| 23:18.38 | Writchie | so far the hardware seems rather stable overall |
| 23:18.54 | Writchie | modem has stayed up for weeks on one of mine. |
| 23:18.55 | cesarb | "Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are "known knowns"; there are things we know we know. We also know there are "known unknowns"; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also "unknown unknowns" — the ones we don't know we don't know." -- Rumsfeld |
| 23:19.41 | Writchie | and also unknown knowns |
| 23:19.43 | CM | cesarb: Nice quote ;) |
| 23:19.51 | cesarb | Writchie: if you discount the nasty noise/smell if you plug the USB without the battery, and the people who had WSODs... |
| 23:20.44 | anrp | ah yes |
| 23:20.44 | Writchie | plugging in without battery is probably a validation issue - I'd never try this with any phone I paid for |
| 23:20.50 | anrp | the whine of death |
| 23:20.54 | anrp | its very sad. |
| 23:21.48 | *** join/#openmoko demaledetti (n=ste@151.82.4.179) |
| 23:21.54 | Writchie | same as reverse polarity |
| 23:21.57 | cesarb | Writchie: but yeah, the hardware is way more solid than the software ;-) |
| 23:22.04 | Writchie | absolutely |
| 23:22.19 | *** join/#openmoko alphabeat (n=nick@60-240-127-23.tpgi.com.au) |
| 23:22.21 | Writchie | but the low level stuff isn't actually not that bad. |
| 23:22.38 | Writchie | except the rate of motion seems to be close to zero. |
| 23:23.22 | cesarb | Writchie: I think 100% of the work being done is to the new drivers for GTA02 |
| 23:23.32 | Writchie | appears so |
| 23:23.37 | cesarb | Writchie: which does make sense since only they can do them |
| 23:23.56 | cesarb | Writchie: while people from the outside can (in theory) do the other things |
| 23:24.43 | borg_ | i think yesterday there was a guy here who could send tcp packets over wlan with the gta02 |
| 23:24.46 | Writchie | well, IMNSHO, you need to do all of the low-level software things necessary to verify the hardware. |
| 23:24.50 | borg_ | sounded very promising |
| 23:24.54 | borg_ | concerning the wlan drivers |
| 23:24.56 | cesarb | (in practice, the barrier of entry is too high -- you need to know a lot of linux/uboot architecture, plus a good grasp of low level stuff) |
| 23:25.08 | Writchie | cesarb: it does look like GATA01, however, is a complete orphan |
| 23:25.38 | *** part/#openmoko alphabeat (n=nick@60-240-127-23.tpgi.com.au) |
| 23:26.51 | cesarb | Writchie: not really, a lot of code is common between GTA01 and GTA02 |
| 23:27.17 | Writchie | but if it doesn't apply to GTA01 its not being verified. |
| 23:27.21 | cesarb | Writchie: for instance, if someone manages to do some crazy thing to have the USB BT dongle wake up the system, it will apply to both |
| 23:27.47 | Writchie | yeah - but if it takes the out-of-band it will only work on GTA01 and not GTA02 |
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| 23:29.32 | Writchie | as soon as I finish up the mux I'll start working on the modem suspend |
| 23:29.59 | *** join/#openmoko emmc_ (n=emmc@host113-191-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) |
| 23:31.52 | cesarb | I have the intention of taking a look at some power issues, mostly adding some safeguards to kernel and uboot to shut down completely on critical battery (waiting for the crashy userspace is madness) and the BT wakeup issue (which needs polling). However, I do not know if I will have the time to do all that... |
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| 23:33.52 | *** join/#openmoko emmc_ (n=emmc@host113-191-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) |
| 23:34.55 | Writchie | cesarb: some work on overall device management issues has started on http://www.freesmartphone.org |
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| 23:40.08 | cesarb | hm, interesting, mokomakefile built uboot-openmoko_1.2.0+gitf34024d4a328e6edd906456da98d2c537155c4f7+svn2943.bb, there is a uboot-openmoko_svn.bb which is 1.2.0+git${SRCDATE}+svnr${SRCREV}, but the november snapshot built uboot 1.3.0! |
| 23:43.21 | CM | cesarb: What monotone server did you sync to with the makefile? |
| 23:43.35 | cesarb | CM: the default one |
| 23:43.51 | cesarb | CM: (or rather, there were only one, the OE one) |
| 23:44.06 | cesarb | s/were/was/ |
| 23:44.22 | CM | cesarb: rwhitby told me I could use make OM_MONOTONE_SITE=monotone.openembedded.org update |
| 23:44.26 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 23:44.57 | CM | Because default was now supposed to point to a versioned monotone.openmoko.org I think.. |
| 23:45.05 | *** join/#openmoko Dunedan (n=dunedan@phoenitydawn.de) |
| 23:45.07 | cesarb | CM: you mean make update-bleeding-edge? that's from yesterday's mokomakefile, my compile is from thursday ;-) |
| 23:45.22 | CM | Aha, heh |
| 23:45.42 | CM | That was from thursday evening I think, been a way a few days.. |
| 23:45.45 | CM | ;) |
| 23:46.05 | rwhitby | cesarb: mickey uses autorev, not the fixed revs. |
| 23:46.23 | rwhitby | One would expect that the fixed revs were all updated to match the snapshot ... |
| 23:46.32 | cesarb | rwhitby: even then, there is no recipe for uboot-openmoko I could find which was for 1.3.0 |
| 23:46.44 | cesarb | rwhitby: the ones I found are for 1.2.0 |
| 23:47.17 | mmontour | The uboot-openmoko_svn.bb has a hard-coded "1.2.0" version string even though upstream u-boot is now 1.3.0 |
| 23:47.51 | cesarb | mmontour: even then, the november snapshot uboot seems to be using a hardcoded 1.3.0 version string |
| 23:50.52 | SpeedEvil | :/ |
| 23:50.54 | SpeedEvil | what link? |
| 23:51.27 | *** part/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 23:51.43 | mmontour | I haven't looked at the november snapshot. I built my own u-boot from the _svn.bb a couple of days ago, and it is actually 1.3.0 despite the 1.2.0 version string |
| 23:51.57 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: doing make update-bleeding-edge while the torrent client is leaving only about 10K of download speed for mtn |
| 23:52.01 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: and it is pegging my CPU hard |
| 23:52.14 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: this is a 2GHz 64-bit CPU! |
| 23:52.23 | *** join/#openmoko lysanderslair (n=jeff@CPE0014bf4ad3e5-CM000a7363f3b6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 23:52.43 | SpeedEvil | I've just upgraded to a AMD X |
| 23:52.46 | SpeedEvil | PM2500 |
| 23:55.34 | mwester-laptop | cesarb: my theory is that monotone encrypts each data packet it sends, but rather than decrypting the received data in the normal way, it uses a brute force attack. |
| 23:55.49 | mwester-laptop | Nothing else can explain the amount of CPU required per byte of data transmitted. |
| 23:55.52 | cesarb | mwester-laptop: lol |
| 23:56.19 | rwhitby | mwester-laptop: there's folding@home support in there too. |
| 23:56.41 | rwhitby | we all should feel good about how much CPU monotone uses, cause we're helping cancer research. |
| 23:57.15 | mwester-laptop | Not to mention all the Intel share-holders we're helping out. |
