| 00:01.50 | *** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@mathias.residence.ens-lyon.fr) |
| 00:11.00 | *** join/#openmoko heikkit (n=chatzill@c-67-188-122-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 00:11.05 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 00:12.11 | *** join/#openmoko BlueMaex (n=bluemaex@81.169.231.62) |
| 00:16.21 | webjames | flexd, did you get qemu working in ubuntu? |
| 00:19.24 | *** join/#openmoko merriam (n=merriam@85-211-68-26.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 00:19.39 | flexd | webjames: no, same error |
| 00:20.01 | flexd | it's a kernel issue as far as the wiki says |
| 00:20.20 | flexd | there's a bug report submitted, didnt you read the link you linked me? |
| 00:20.24 | flexd | sent me* |
| 00:20.38 | webjames | yeah, i just didn't know if you'd found a work around |
| 00:20.57 | flexd | Haven't tried |
| 00:21.03 | flexd | try upgrading/downgrading kernel |
| 00:21.11 | flexd | if the kernel is the issue that would hopefully fix it? :/ |
| 00:22.47 | webjames | okay, cheers |
| 00:23.29 | *** join/#openmoko PITABoy (i=Windoze@adsl-221-110-242.rmo.bellsouth.net) |
| 00:23.35 | *** join/#openmoko moko-bunny (n=reik@CPE-76-178-148-218.natnow.res.rr.com) |
| 00:25.16 | hachi | openmoko-today is complaining that couldn't connect to the dbus daemon |
| 00:25.33 | hachi | and then comains that it couldn't use dbus-launch to launch a new one |
| 00:25.49 | hachi | dbus is running and working (I can subscribe to it) |
| 00:26.00 | *** part/#openmoko lindi- (n=lindi@kulho150.adsl.netsonic.fi) |
| 00:26.02 | hachi | and dbus-launch launches a new one just fine |
| 00:26.19 | hachi | wait, now I can't |
| 00:26.26 | hachi | dbus-monitor doesn't go |
| 00:27.20 | hachi | reinstall, reboot... try again |
| 00:36.05 | anrp | the windows fix for everything D: |
| 00:37.47 | hachi | doesn't really work anyways |
| 00:38.25 | hachi | [pid 1136] execve("/usr/bin/dbus-launch", ["dbus-launch", "--autolaunch", "8aafe703e2f05f238495400046c8cc00", "--binary-syntax"], [/* 12 vars */]) = 0 |
| 00:38.35 | hachi | Autolaunch requested, but X11 support not compiled in.\nCannot continue. |
| 00:38.53 | hachi | why does dbus depend on X11? |
| 00:39.08 | hachi | this is me trying to start dbus-monitor |
| 00:39.13 | hachi | which last I checked.... hold on |
| 00:39.39 | hachi | yes, last I checked 3 seconds ago dbus-monitor is a line based app |
| 00:43.14 | *** join/#openmoko Jake_ (n=Jake@umm-yrless170.morris.umn.edu) |
| 00:47.52 | hachi | okay, the dbus autolaunch must be the secondary problem |
| 00:48.05 | hachi | still, why are we trying to autolaunch... wonder if I can diable that somehow |
| 00:50.56 | *** join/#openmoko FinalOutrage (n=FinalOut@adsl-176-24-192.asm.bellsouth.net) |
| 00:52.29 | FinalOutrage | .j spp-wifi |
| 00:54.03 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_ (n=ewanm89@unaffiliated/ewanm89) |
| 00:57.49 | *** join/#openmoko Thax (n=haxhax@c-f1cce455.22-13-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) |
| 01:00.48 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89__ (n=ewanm89@134.219.164.108) |
| 01:03.01 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__ (i=disguy__@gateway/tor/x-942d5d9da7e6f5e5) |
| 01:07.42 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@umm-yrless170.morris.umn.edu) |
| 01:11.25 | Thax | will i be able to use 3G with the GTA02 ? |
| 01:11.35 | anrp | no |
| 01:11.44 | anrp | well, not 3g networks (umts) |
| 01:11.52 | anrp | only gsm 2g, gprs (2.5g) |
| 01:12.30 | anrp | if the 3g network also does gsm-2g, that'll work |
| 01:12.34 | anrp | but it won't work in japan |
| 01:13.05 | anrp | since the only gsm in japan is gsm 3g |
| 01:13.22 | anrp | i think thats the only country with that odd setup though ... |
| 01:13.55 | raster | japan always was odd for phones |
| 01:14.05 | raster | until gsm 3g they had their own proprietary system(s) |
| 01:14.13 | raster | even different telcos had different systems entirely |
| 01:14.16 | anrp | nod |
| 01:14.23 | hachi | japan uses gsm 3g? |
| 01:14.23 | raster | phones are 100% tied to the network carriers |
| 01:14.26 | hachi | I didn't even know |
| 01:14.42 | hachi | I mean, these days... I knew aobut the old setup |
| 01:14.43 | raster | it is illegal to unlock phones in japan - its a criminal offence and you can (and will) be jailed for it |
| 01:14.46 | anrp | well vodafone/softbank is rolling out a umts network |
| 01:14.53 | hachi | ahh |
| 01:14.53 | raster | some of the carriers support it |
| 01:15.06 | raster | softbank and docomo foma support it |
| 01:15.51 | raster | au does not, neither does willcom (or tu-ka though they are just an au stooge) |
| 01:16.05 | Thax | but if the 3g network does gsm-2g, will i get the 3g speed ? or will it be gsm slow speed |
| 01:16.16 | raster | no you won't |
| 01:16.32 | *** join/#openmoko Any_Key (n=Any_Key@bzq-84-108-121-143.cablep.bezeqint.net) |
| 01:16.33 | raster | for phone calls and sms it doesnt matter |
| 01:16.42 | *** join/#openmoko quicksand (n=clarke@76.14.28.160) |
| 01:16.51 | anrp | mm foma migrated to umts compatibility |
| 01:16.54 | anrp | it wasn't originally |
| 01:17.02 | raster | anrp: they have it now |
| 01:17.12 | anrp | indeed D: |
| 01:17.18 | anrp | i have no 3g phone to test it with though ... |
| 01:17.19 | raster | if you go to japan with a foreign phone that does 3g u may get either fostbank or docomo |
| 01:17.42 | Thax | raster: true |
| 01:17.44 | anrp | i have a semi-broken samsung gsm phone |
| 01:17.46 | anrp | ~_~ |
| 01:17.46 | apt | :/ |
| 01:17.58 | anrp | had it for years ... |
| 01:18.03 | anrp | still works |
| 01:18.05 | anrp | mostly ~_~ |
| 01:18.31 | *** join/#openmoko Any_Key (n=Any_Key@bzq-84-108-121-143.cablep.bezeqint.net) |
| 01:19.43 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@pdpc/supporter/active/bluelightning) |
| 01:25.25 | *** part/#openmoko quicksand (n=clarke@76.14.28.160) |
| 01:25.43 | hachi | anyone know about dbus in moko? I'm having troubles with it |
| 01:37.02 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S0106001c104ae594.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 01:37.36 | *** join/#openmoko greentux_ (n=lemke@Z766d.z.pppool.de) |
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| 02:09.32 | chihchun | hum... the buildhost is back |
| 02:09.34 | chihchun | but the stuffs in the snapshot folder is very old |
| 02:09.45 | chihchun | well, I better rebuild the image by myself |
| 02:18.16 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__ (i=disguy__@gateway/tor/x-0abe10c8d7555294) |
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| 03:09.52 | wenko | hmm...wow this room is up and down |
| 03:10.03 | wenko | looks like cable.rcn.com is not hacving a good nigt |
| 03:12.57 | chippy | yeah |
| 03:15.22 | hachi | anyone know about dbus on moko? |
| 03:15.27 | hachi | I'm having real problems with it |
| 03:17.52 | *** join/#openmoko holycow (n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com) |
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| 03:32.36 | ohgood | I've looked about on a few sites, and wondered if there are any images of openmoko bootable, say with qemu or something similar ? i'd like to play with things if it's possible for a while. thanks. |
| 03:35.06 | hachi | bluh! |
| 03:35.23 | hachi | run-parts on busybox has no --verbose option |
| 03:35.28 | hachi | how to debug... grrr |
| 03:40.55 | rwhitby | morning |
| 03:42.10 | hachi | morning |
| 03:42.32 | chippy | night |
| 03:43.01 | hachi | access denied on dbus :\ |
| 03:45.33 | rwhitby | Interesting that this O'Reilly onlamp article uses the Neo handset graphic in all it's diagrams: http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2007/11/12/google-calling-inside-the-gphone-sdk.html |
| 03:46.52 | *** join/#openmoko Aztlek (n=lbernal@190.156.49.78) |
| 03:47.55 | hachi | blah, strace doesn't have a full dictionary on moko |
| 03:49.28 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (n=fredsiba@p54953B1D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 03:49.34 | hachi | anyone know how I can get my phone back working? x-window-manager (matchbox-wm) isn't getting around to launching all the apps it's supposed to according to /etc/matchbox/session |
| 03:50.58 | *** join/#openmoko oppiz (n=zippo@pool-96-228-29-134.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net) |
| 03:59.38 | *** part/#openmoko ohgood (n=ohgood@223-188.186-72.tampabay.res.rr.com) |
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| 04:16.24 | *** join/#openmoko infernix (n=nix@unaffiliated/infernix) |
| 04:18.05 | rwhitby | Hmm: | ERROR: Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for task-openmoko-ui: |
| 04:18.05 | rwhitby | | gsmd-plugin-machine-gta01 |
| 04:18.13 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AF80D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 04:18.16 | rwhitby | (during do_rootfs) |
| 04:18.56 | *** join/#openmoko holycow (n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com) |
| 04:19.04 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-21.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 04:19.09 | hachi | matchbox-window-manager, as far as I can tell... doesn't call /etc/matchbox/session during startup |
| 04:19.15 | hachi | I can't figure out what's supposed to issue this |
| 04:19.32 | *** part/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 04:22.07 | mwester | rwhitby: Yep, been that way all day... I'm waiting for a clean build to finish, but I expect mine will fail the same way. |
| 04:22.28 | rwhitby | libgsmd doesn't emit that package |
| 04:26.09 | rwhitby | rebuilding libgsmd and task-openmoko-ui doesn't fix it |
| 04:26.22 | rwhitby | and it's not obvious how task-openmoko-ui depends on that package |
| 04:29.59 | hachi | am I supposed to be using matchbox-window-manager? |
| 04:30.00 | *** join/#openmoko jkilb_ (n=jkilb@p5B20AE28.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 04:30.00 | *** join/#openmoko jpozlovsky (n=jindra@rb5cc115.net.upc.cz) |
| 04:30.10 | hachi | perhaps there's something else that I'm supposed to be using and I don't know it |
| 04:31.37 | rwhitby | mwester: gsmd-plugins depends on gsmd-plugin-machine-gta01 according to depends.dot (bitbake -g) |
| 04:32.30 | mwester | ERROR: Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for task-openmoko-ui: |
| 04:32.37 | rwhitby | hachi: matchbox-window-manager is certainly what's built and put in the image. |
| 04:32.42 | mwester | gdk-pixbuf-loader-png gdk-pixbuf-loader-gif gdk-pixbuf-loader-xpm gdk-pixbuf-loader-jpeg gsmd-plugin-machine-gta01 |
| 04:32.58 | mwester | That's a clean build. Looks like it's a bit more than just the plugin. :( |
| 04:33.21 | mwester | Actually, probably only one other package, now that I look closer. |
| 04:33.46 | hachi | rwhitby: matchbox-window-manager is launching just fine on my phone, talking over dbus... yet it never makes a call to /etc/matchbox/session to launch all the other necessary apps to make my phone usable |
| 04:34.06 | hachi | I've checked out the matchbox-window-manager source, I can't see anything that calls this file |
| 04:34.15 | hachi | grepped in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ |
| 04:34.38 | hachi | I can't find who the devil is supposed to be executing that file to set up my X interface for everything |
| 04:38.35 | rwhitby | mwester: seems that latest gsmd svn source has "machine" gta01, rather than "vendor" gta01. |
| 04:40.00 | rwhitby | so that matches what task-openmoko-ui is looking for. |
| 04:40.12 | rwhitby | but machine gta01 plugin doesn't seem to be built |
| 04:40.15 | mwester | I guess machine is technically more correct, but still... |
| 04:42.29 | rwhitby | machine gta01 is in Makefile.am ... |
| 04:48.17 | rwhitby | mwester: looks like an sane svnrev thing |
| 04:49.02 | rwhitby | mwester: what version of libgsmd is being built for you? |
| 04:49.57 | *** join/#openmoko cmarcelo (n=cmarcelo@189.70.89.61) |
| 04:52.20 | rwhitby | for some reason, snvr2806-r24 is building for me, whereas sane-srcrevs says 3074 should be built |
| 04:52.48 | rwhitby | (and latest change in svn is r3430) |
| 04:56.01 | rwhitby | ok, scratch that - seems it moved to machine-specific build |
| 04:56.33 | rwhitby | so I am building svnr3074-r38 |
| 04:57.34 | rwhitby | still no machine gta01 built in there |
| 04:58.26 | rwhitby | looks like machine gta01 plugin didn't exist in Makefile.am in rev 3074 |
| 04:58.33 | hachi | did the moko makefile start hiding the commands it's running in the last week? |
| 04:58.45 | rwhitby | hachi: nothing has changed in a number of weeks |
| 04:58.49 | hachi | ugh, running task 993 of 5051 |
| 04:58.57 | hachi | I guess I might have a working build in a week or two |
| 04:59.28 | hachi | ok, I thought it had been a lot more explicit, obviously wrong :) |
| 05:04.10 | hachi | does the gsm device in the neo identify itself to the network differently than other phones? |
| 05:05.06 | hachi | cause I can't get gprs working on it... LCP is fine now, CCP is fine, auth is fine (CHAP for some reason) but IPCP is unable to get an ipv4 configuration from the far end |
| 05:05.25 | rwhitby | mwester: machine gta01 plugin builds with rev 3434 of libgsmd |
| 05:05.40 | *** join/#openmoko eonj (n=ENJ@c-68-35-225-183.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 05:05.52 | *** join/#openmoko b52deb (n=b52deb__@41.249.250.195) |
| 05:05.54 | rwhitby | mwester: and rootfs completes/ |
| 05:06.06 | rwhitby | now, where is my neo to test it on ... |
| 05:06.18 | *** join/#openmoko dexterr (i=dexter@ua-83-227-175-53.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) |
| 05:06.23 | hachi | you left it on top of your microwave |
| 05:08.09 | rwhitby | doh! left them both at work :-( |
| 05:09.05 | rwhitby | next error is in qemu: /home/moko/openmoko/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/audio/audio.c:1912: fatal error\ |
| 05:09.05 | rwhitby | : opening dependency file audio/audio.d: No such file or directory |
| 05:11.05 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 05:12.57 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@CPE0014bf07ffd2-CM001ac30d4aca.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
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| 05:50.37 | J-23 | Hello! |
| 05:50.47 | *** join/#openmoko Lycus (n=Coir@ip68-97-153-61.ok.ok.cox.net) |
| 05:50.54 | Lycus | So - how is typing on the openmoko? |
| 05:51.51 | *** join/#openmoko doc|home (n=doc@gentoo/contributor/doc-007) |
| 06:04.58 | *** join/#openmoko raster (n=raster@220-245-23-46.free.tpgi.com.au) |
| 06:10.01 | rwhitby | aha, it was mickey_away who added the gta01 plugin to gsmd.inc, but forgot to update sane-srcrevs.inc |
| 06:10.09 | *** part/#openmoko Lycus (n=Coir@ip68-97-153-61.ok.ok.cox.net) |
| 06:10.20 | rwhitby | (about 14 hours ago) |
| 06:10.58 | mwester | And it was likewise who commited (in error) a hacked up gtk+ bb file along with his squashfs changes. |
| 06:15.54 | mwester | pushing a fix for the gtk+ problem into OE now. |
| 06:23.47 | *** join/#openmoko Wake (n=cor@vc-196-207-32-231.3g.vodacom.co.za) |
| 06:24.59 | *** part/#openmoko J-23 (n=Moarc_zi@a105.net128.okay.pl) |
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| 06:30.50 | hachi | mail them the commit and ditch pony |
| 06:30.53 | hachi | ? |
| 06:34.06 | *** part/#openmoko Wake (n=cor@vc-196-207-32-231.3g.vodacom.co.za) |
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| 07:29.16 | hachi | I am... heavily impressed by this build system |
| 07:34.13 | *** join/#openmoko mbuf (n=mbuf@121.246.172.117) |
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| 08:00.42 | hachi | roh: I found out how I got that neo |
| 08:01.03 | hachi | apparently my friend knows sean... sean gave it to him or something |
| 08:13.27 | *** join/#openmoko unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu) |
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| 08:38.43 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 09:34.44 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@213.155.227.229) |
| 09:37.26 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@124-171-184-138.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 09:39.32 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=khmhm@dsl51B66462.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 09:43.43 | *** join/#openmoko mmp (n=mmp@158.195.96.206) |
| 09:44.24 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 09:46.48 | *** join/#openmoko Tob1 (n=tobi@p5B004A7D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 09:48.04 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@84-73-66-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 09:48.21 | *** join/#openmoko edistar (n=edistar@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 09:48.31 | *** part/#openmoko Tob1 (n=tobi@p5B004A7D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 09:54.10 | edistar | good morning |
| 09:58.23 | rwhitby | pushing the libgsmd fix now |
| 10:04.20 | torpor | whats up folks. |
| 10:04.35 | torpor | things clearing up with the build mess? |
| 10:06.14 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-135-063.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 10:06.55 | *** join/#openmoko horvatj73 (n=horvatj7@chello213047095126.4.14.vie.surfer.at) |
| 10:07.56 | Zoolooc | hello folks |
| 10:08.28 | ScaredyCat | rwhitby fixed it torpor |
| 10:08.30 | torpor | howdy |
| 10:08.31 | torpor | ok |
| 10:08.44 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=dr@vnsecurity.net) |
| 10:09.20 | rwhitby | ScaredyCat: mwester fixed the other bit |
| 10:09.26 | torpor | getting ready for a days worth of hacking finally .. |
| 10:09.27 | rwhitby | together it should build now |
| 10:09.33 | torpor | ok |
| 10:09.45 | Zoolooc | I seem to still be a bit far from running linux on my phone, but I'd like to know, is syncing of PIM data supported in OpenMoko for example, also with ActiveSync (which may be the only option sometimes, at the office)? |
| 10:10.14 | torpor | Zoolooc: such features are possible, if there is activesync for regular linux, it can easily be ported to the openmoko environment |
| 10:10.24 | torpor | but i dont think anyone is working on it as a priority as of today |
| 10:11.12 | Zoolooc | alright, I also doubt there is already something like this. I might ask the synce folks |
| 10:11.30 | torpor | the thing is, its quite easy to port |
| 10:11.42 | torpor | i think there is a python tool for handling these sync issues .. that'd be easy to get running |
| 10:12.18 | torpor | treat the neo1973 as if its a regular linux workstation, running a linux distribution that supports compatability with a lot of already-existing linux software. |
| 10:12.37 | torpor | more than likely there will be a way to do sync'ing properly.. but it could be that its just not there yet. |
| 10:12.51 | torpor | you're welcome to fix that, though. ;) |
| 10:14.26 | hachi | is there anyone who frequents here that could help me with my matchbox-wm issue? |
| 10:14.42 | torpor | whats the problem? |
| 10:14.45 | CM | hachi: I never managed to get around it only using ipkg |
| 10:14.49 | *** join/#openmoko miip (n=miip@p54A55466.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:14.59 | Zoolooc | torpor: who knows, I might just need it and try to get active then ;) |
| 10:15.14 | hachi | matchbox-wm launches, but the file /etc/matchbox/session never gets executed |
| 10:15.25 | CM | There's some conflict between machbox-common and openmoko-session2 I think. At least I had that before |
| 10:15.29 | torpor | Zoolooc: thats what its all about |
| 10:15.30 | hachi | so my phone shows 'please wait' all the time |
| 10:15.46 | torpor | hachi: i think that problem is being worked on right now .. |
| 10:15.53 | torpor | or was fixed in the latest build. |
| 10:16.01 | CM | hachi: If you have anything you need to save, move it to /media/card/, then reflash |
| 10:16.08 | torpor | i'm doing a build now, and will see .. i also have that problem. |
| 10:16.14 | CM | It works now, I built and flashed this morning |
| 10:16.16 | hachi | I don't have a jtag |
| 10:16.24 | hachi | all the stuff says don't flash unless you have jtag |
| 10:16.28 | CM | hachi: Me neither, but flashing kernel and rootfs is safe |
| 10:16.33 | CM | Just don't flash uboot |
| 10:16.33 | ScaredyCat | rwhitby: ahh sorry mwester... |
| 10:16.49 | hachi | CM: but this bothers me |
| 10:16.56 | hachi | the 'oh just reinstall the OS' is the windows method |
| 10:17.07 | CM | Yes, sure is.. |
| 10:17.14 | hachi | I tried to figure out was wrong, read the matchbox-wm source, couldn't find what's supposed to invoke that file |
| 10:17.38 | hachi | grepped /etc/X11/Xsession.d (since grep has no -r option in busybox) |
| 10:17.39 | CM | It's a combination of ipkg being a bit limited, and the libs being in an early state and changing a lot |
| 10:18.01 | hachi | is there an image I can install from? |
| 10:18.10 | hachi | because I've been compiling for like 24 hours now |
| 10:18.21 | hachi | Running task 1518 of 5051 |
| 10:18.48 | CM | hachi: You can get the one I just flashed, just a sec |
| 10:18.56 | hachi | okiedokie |
| 10:19.25 | torpor | hachi: you do realize that the neo1973 is a *developers* phone right now? you're supposed to be updating the kernel+rootfs on a frequent basis, as things change daily, weekly, with the base system install. |
| 10:19.26 | *** join/#openmoko jroman (n=jroman@238.Red-83-36-214.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 10:19.27 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@81.80-202-132.nextgentel.com) |
| 10:19.42 | hachi | torpor: I just got the phone on... wednesday? |
| 10:19.50 | torpor | hachi: and let your compile finish - its important. once its finished you can do "make update openmoko-devel-image" every day and get the new image for your own testing. |
| 10:19.52 | CM | hachi: http://claesmogren.com/~cm/neo/2007.2/ |
| 10:19.57 | hachi | I'm trying to catch up fast |
| 10:20.02 | torpor | hachi: but you shouldn't have gotten it without realizing that you're going to be flashing a lot |
| 10:20.06 | torpor | just don't flash u-boot and you'll be fine. |
| 10:20.34 | torpor | this 'windows method' thing is not applicable here, because in fact you are participating in the development of an OS. its not a user OS. yet. |
| 10:20.40 | CM | hachi: Yes, forget about the uboot I have there, It's just a folder where I have the same images as I have working on my Neo |
| 10:20.46 | hachi | I will |
| 10:21.02 | hachi | torpor: sorry, I landed this phone entirely by accident |
| 10:21.05 | torpor | try to be patient; i'm only warning you because there may be wrinkles with the OS releases in the coming weeks which mean frustration if you're only trying to use the phone. |
| 10:21.10 | hachi | I wasn't planning to buy one till the GTA02 myself |
| 10:21.17 | hachi | so I'll try to calm down |
| 10:21.33 | CM | hachi: Don't worry, it's frustrating at times |
| 10:21.36 | torpor | well, just be aware: things change a lot with Openmoko right now, and its a rocket ride through the progressive development stages of an OS. |
| 10:21.48 | hachi | I'm fine with that |
| 10:22.07 | hachi | I removed a transistor from my neo yesterday to make it work better |
| 10:22.09 | torpor | it is frustrating. we all share that frustration. but if you've got a neo1973, it means you're a developer, and that should be enough of a clue that you've gotta be able to weather the storm like other developers do. its not a user phone yet. |
| 10:22.11 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 10:22.36 | hachi | well, yes... that's why I was reading the source to matchbox-wm and trying to diagnose the startup |
| 10:22.41 | torpor | it ain't windows, either. |
| 10:22.42 | torpor | ;) |
| 10:22.53 | hachi | I hadn't seen any notes about it being dead, nor anyone fixing it |
| 10:23.08 | hachi | I don't know how to subscribe to this information yet, that's sorta where I'm getting stuck |
| 10:23.09 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (n=dottedma@90.189.165.244) |
| 10:23.14 | torpor | the thing you should be aware of is that things change a *lot* on a daily basis. you have to catch your build up with the rest of us, then do daily make update openmoko-devel-image to stay current. |
| 10:23.30 | torpor | hachi: there definitely needs to be a release engineer on the openmoko project, but there isn't right now. |
| 10:23.53 | hachi | I'm asking... in a roudnabout way |
| 10:23.57 | torpor | one thing we have all suffered from is that there is no real 'official weekly build' thats been through a test state. we all have issues with that, which is why #openmoko is important. for now, we update each other daily. |
| 10:24.00 | hachi | how did you know that it was being worked on? |
| 10:24.10 | hachi | this channel? |
| 10:24.14 | torpor | because i do a daily make update and i see the changes. |
| 10:24.18 | torpor | also, because of this channel. |
| 10:24.38 | hachi | is there an easy way to get a diff? *goes reading the makefile* |
| 10:24.41 | torpor | this channel is a primary point of support for active developers on openmoko right now.. there really aren't any other resources - no openmokoslash.org or anything .. yet .. |
| 10:24.46 | hachi | well, a commit log actually |
| 10:25.03 | torpor | when you do 'make update' you'll see the differences. yes, there is a commit log - you can subscribe to the commits mailing list and get updates. |
| 10:25.31 | CM | hachi: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail |
| 10:25.57 | CM | Sorry, forget the pipermail part, I was reading the commitlogs |
| 10:26.07 | hachi | I'll assume you meant mailman |
| 10:26.13 | hachi | cause pipermail don't work :) |
| 10:26.17 | CM | Yes |
| 10:26.29 | ScaredyCat | there are comit logs |
| 10:26.34 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 10:26.35 | hachi | -devel is the commits list? |
| 10:26.39 | CM | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/commitlog/2007-November/date.html |
| 10:26.42 | hachi | wait, missed commit log |
| 10:26.42 | hachi | sorry |
| 10:26.49 | hachi | blind me |
| 10:26.54 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@X0511.x.pppool.de) |
| 10:27.13 | CM | hachi: -devel is ok, too, community is too much noise for me |
| 10:27.23 | hachi | good opinion |
| 10:27.38 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AF80D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:27.53 | ScaredyCat | yay |
| 10:27.54 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@91.89.138.232) |
| 10:28.20 | PBeck | hi |
| 10:28.43 | *** join/#openmoko NaPs (n=Unknown@tecknet.org) |
| 10:29.10 | CM | ScaredyCat: Ahh... Cool :) |
| 10:29.15 | borg_ | cool |
| 10:29.16 | borg_ | :) |
| 10:30.41 | CM | ScaredyCat: I know you have an enormous amount of song soo, you show-off! :P |
| 10:30.46 | CM | songs.. |
| 10:30.57 | hachi | I'm gonna make frowny faces on this channel if I have to debrick my phone tonight :) |
| 10:31.03 | *** join/#openmoko marsan (n=marsan@ti500720a080-1126.bb.online.no) |
| 10:31.24 | CM | hachi: Feel free to blame me if you do |
| 10:31.46 | hachi | I'll say your name and frown, OK |
| 10:31.49 | CM | Hehe |
| 10:31.55 | ScaredyCat | CM: oooh yes.. |
| 10:32.51 | hachi | should I do a nand erase? |
| 10:32.51 | ScaredyCat | but the web browser is unstable in om |
| 10:32.58 | hachi | since I don't know if this image is large or smaller |
| 10:34.10 | *** join/#openmoko wooKieface (n=benjamin@x1-6-00-03-2f-29-99-b9.k559.webspeed.dk) |
| 10:35.25 | robster | hachi: yeh, unless you have newish u-boot which does that anyway |
| 10:35.31 | ScaredyCat | aand it is a shame that fullscreen isn't :( |
| 10:37.15 | CM | hachi: Be very careful with nand erase |
| 10:37.26 | CM | hachi: If you do only "nand erase" you'll have a brick |
| 10:37.52 | hachi | if I do that, then I'll buy a jtag |
| 10:37.56 | hachi | but I'll frown first |
| 10:37.59 | borg_ | :) |
| 10:38.10 | CM | hachi: Since you have a P0, you probably have an old uboot though.. |
| 10:38.20 | hachi | I' getting a version |
| 10:38.24 | CM | hachi: I've updated my uboot 4 times, and I don't have a jtag |
| 10:38.30 | ScaredyCat | remember it's: |
| 10:38.33 | ScaredyCat | :-(® |
| 10:38.44 | hachi | 1.2.0-moko9_r0 |
| 10:38.55 | hachi | aug 19th |
| 10:39.07 | CM | Hmm, I think that one's ok |
| 10:39.07 | hachi | I assum ethat's not 'recent ish' by definition in this setup? |
| 10:39.11 | hachi | oh |
| 10:39.14 | ScaredyCat | for me any uboot > 23rd August has issues... |
| 10:39.20 | ScaredyCat | race condition... |
| 10:39.32 | CM | It's from the 2007.08 "official" release |
| 10:39.38 | ScaredyCat | easily solved but usung ux button, but worth being aware of |
| 10:40.18 | CM | ScaredyCat: Did that august 19 uboot have the nand erase fix? |
| 10:40.22 | CM | I think it did.. |
| 10:40.31 | hachi | CM, tell me |
| 10:40.32 | ScaredyCat | yeah, methinks it might... |
| 10:40.42 | hachi | does the u-boot in that directory you gave me work |
| 10:40.59 | CM | hachi: Yes, for me and ScaredyCat it did at least |
| 10:41.03 | hachi | if so, I'll just flash it... I don't fear this really |
| 10:41.05 | *** join/#openmoko fgau (n=fgau@pD953B2B9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:41.15 | CM | ScaredyCat: I think it's yours from august 31 |
| 10:41.26 | torpor | CM: ScaredyCat: btw, i'm gonna use that uboot today to set up root-on-sd .. |
| 10:41.37 | ScaredyCat | blibble |
| 10:41.44 | ScaredyCat | :D |
| 10:41.50 | ScaredyCat | CM : 31st? |
| 10:41.51 | ScaredyCat | :O |
| 10:42.07 | CM | ScaredyCat: Yes, it's bad? August 31 that is |
| 10:42.12 | CM | It's been working ok for me.. |
| 10:42.29 | CM | But I haven't tried any root on SD though |
| 10:42.44 | ScaredyCat | the sd one is in the root dir... |
| 10:43.13 | CM | hachi: ScaredyCat's files are in http://buildhost.automated.it/ |
| 10:43.17 | ScaredyCat | none of the others seem to work properly... they return 0 size |
| 10:43.46 | ScaredyCat | http://buildhost.automated.it/u-boot-good-for-sd-boot-r13_0_2632_0.bin works for SD cards |
| 10:43.49 | hachi | I... don't have an SD card in my phone |
| 10:43.57 | hachi | I put a piece of paper in to prevent shorting |
| 10:44.07 | hachi | but the guy who gave me the phone kept the SD card :) |
| 10:44.41 | borg_ | hachi: you can use any sd card, at least up to 4gb will work |
| 10:44.51 | hachi | I don't have any |
| 10:44.56 | hachi | that's the problem |
| 10:44.58 | borg_ | ok :) |
| 10:44.59 | hachi | I'll buy one next week |
| 10:45.05 | hachi | but thanks for that info |
| 10:45.29 | *** join/#openmoko edistar_ (n=edistar@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 10:55.31 | *** join/#openmoko jeddy3 (n=mattiast@81-237-230-126-no83.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 10:55.35 | *** join/#openmoko horvatj73 (n=horvatj7@chello213047095126.4.14.vie.surfer.at) |
| 10:55.47 | *** join/#openmoko J-23 (n=Moarc_zi@a105.net128.okay.pl) |
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| 10:59.56 | *** part/#openmoko ping (n=ping@pD9E3EBDF.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:00.11 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=dr@vnsecurity.net) |
| 11:01.31 | hachi | hey... uh CM |
| 11:01.45 | hachi | dfu-util reports no devices to flash to |
| 11:02.40 | rwhitby | is the neo in the right state to accept it (hold aux while power on)? |
| 11:02.41 | hachi | reading the wiki pages again |
| 11:02.47 | hachi | yeah, I'm at the uboot menu |
| 11:03.05 | hachi | I can connect to it as ttyACM0 just fine right now |
| 11:04.23 | hachi | I don't have any devices on the bus that are id 0x1457:0x5119 |
| 11:05.11 | hachi | ahh, you have to be root on the host to do this |
| 11:13.27 | torpor | hachi: also unplug the cable and put the cable back in .. |
| 11:14.59 | hachi | nah, just needed permissions |
| 11:15.19 | hachi | I'm so used to doing as little as I can as root that I forgot to even try it |
| 11:16.17 | edistar_ | eh |
| 11:16.28 | *** join/#openmoko Sirclown82 (n=Sirclown@adsl-76-222-26-67.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) |
| 11:16.29 | edistar | oO |
| 11:16.48 | hachi | eh |
| 11:17.13 | hachi | it just made a noise... clickie sound |
| 11:18.51 | ScaredyCat | CM: ping |
| 11:20.22 | CM | ScaredyCat: pong |
| 11:20.40 | ScaredyCat | did you get audio (ringback) on your calls |
| 11:20.43 | ScaredyCat | test calls |
| 11:21.01 | CM | I did try to call, but I called myself |
| 11:21.12 | CM | I'll try and see if I get any audio |
| 11:22.27 | *** join/#openmoko zween_ (n=zween@79-68-48-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 11:22.56 | CM | Hmm.. Weird |
| 11:23.22 | CM | I was unable to answer, since the dialer didn't pop up on incoming calls, it just buzzed |
| 11:23.47 | *** join/#openmoko Magon_ (n=Magon@213.155.227.229) |
| 11:24.29 | ScaredyCat | when you dial from the neo can you hear the ringingngingigng |
| 11:24.30 | CM | ScaredyCat: Ok, audio worked fine |
| 11:24.35 | CM | Yes |
| 11:24.38 | ScaredyCat | k |
| 11:24.50 | CM | I did not get any boot up sound though |
| 11:25.01 | torpor | make sure you have the right kernel |
| 11:25.01 | CM | Or ring tone when calling to the Neo |
| 11:25.24 | CM | torpor: I just used the latest built by the makefile |
| 11:25.36 | hachi | hurray, outbound calls working for me |
| 11:25.43 | CM | hachi: Nice :) |
| 11:27.22 | *** join/#openmoko Any_Key (n=Any_Key@bzq-84-108-121-143.cablep.bezeqint.net) |
| 11:29.22 | ScaredyCat | hmmmm |
| 11:29.31 | *** join/#openmoko rbs-tito (n=tito@88-107-81-77.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 11:30.53 | ScaredyCat | I get that error, but it connects to the network fine |
| 11:31.05 | CM | ScaredyCat: I get that too |
| 11:31.45 | CM | But after another pop up with that "connected to network" test it works again |
| 11:31.59 | ScaredyCat | yah... |
| 11:32.10 | ScaredyCat | I get no audio though.. at all |
| 11:32.21 | CM | Strange |
| 11:33.33 | *** join/#openmoko emre_ (n=emre@88.228.212.19) |
| 11:33.34 | edistar | if I want to program with python and use gps data, how do I do that? is there a gpsd module for python and is there and documentation? |
| 11:34.29 | emre_ | guys, i'm panicked, can't hear anything from neo. i suspect somehow i've burned the audio chip, or sth like that.. |
| 11:34.55 | CM | emre_: Do you have the right kernel for the rootfs? |
| 11:35.40 | emre_ | I'm trying both the latest (1 hour ago) openmoko build and one of the first qtopia images. |
| 11:36.04 | emre_ | both is silent when I cat .. > /dev/audio |
| 11:36.13 | CM | Ok. Have you tried to run alsamixer and unmuted the speakers? |
| 11:36.35 | CM | Does lsmod show a lot of loaded modules? |
| 11:36.35 | emre_ | i've run the alsamixer but i don't know which parameters i should play with there. |
| 11:36.47 | hachi | emre_: audio volumes on my phone were jacked till I reloaded proper settings from /etc/gsmhandset.state |
| 11:37.01 | emre_ | lsmod says: Module Size Used by |
| 11:37.01 | emre_ | sco 10020 2 |
| 11:37.01 | emre_ | nls_iso8859_1 3808 1 |
| 11:37.01 | emre_ | nls_cp437 5472 1 |
| 11:37.01 | emre_ | vfat 10176 1 |
| 11:37.02 | emre_ | fat 46396 1 vfat |
| 11:37.04 | emre_ | nls_base 6720 4 nls_iso8859_1,nls_cp437,vfat,fat |
| 11:37.06 | emre_ | snd_soc_neo1973_wm8753 10040 0 |
| 11:37.08 | emre_ | snd_soc_s3c24xx_i2s 3560 1 snd_soc_neo1973_wm8753 |
| 11:37.10 | emre_ | snd_soc_s3c24xx 4448 1 snd_soc_neo1973_wm8753 |
| 11:37.12 | emre_ | snd_soc_wm8753 28752 1 snd_soc_neo1973_wm8753 |
| 11:37.14 | emre_ | s3cmci 11396 0 |
| 11:37.16 | emre_ | rfcomm 35580 10 |
| 11:37.20 | emre_ | ohci_hcd 20844 0 |
| 11:37.22 | emre_ | hidp 14784 0 |
| 11:37.24 | emre_ | l2cap 20164 10 rfcomm,hidp |
| 11:37.26 | emre_ | hci_usb 15260 2 |
| 11:37.27 | edistar | emre_: nopaste.org |
| 11:37.28 | emre_ | bluetooth 48512 9 sco,rfcomm,hidp,l2cap,hci_usb |
| 11:37.30 | emre_ | i loaded /etc/gsmhandset with alsactl -f /etc/gsmhandset.state restore |
| 11:37.43 | CM | emre_: I don't see any snd_* there |
| 11:37.58 | emre_ | there are 4 snd_soc_xxx here |
| 11:38.07 | CM | Or rather I do, but not the pcm and mixer things |
| 11:38.15 | CM | Tried restarting alsa? |
| 11:38.20 | hachi | I have mixer stuff |
| 11:38.42 | CM | I have too, and without snd_pcm I doubt there will be much sound |
| 11:38.43 | hachi | http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/11552 |
| 11:39.07 | emre_ | how to restart alsa? |
| 11:39.32 | hachi | /etc/init.d/alsa-state restart ? |
| 11:40.18 | emre_ | still the same. |
| 11:40.22 | ScaredyCat | mmm.. seems better now |
| 11:40.31 | hachi | tried modprobe snd_pcm ? |
| 11:40.33 | CM | hachi: I have the same sound modules loaded as you |
| 11:40.38 | hachi | to see if maybe there's an error loading the module |
| 11:40.50 | emre_ | it says snd_pcm not found. |
| 11:41.00 | CM | emre_: What image do you use? |
| 11:41.01 | hachi | ahh, well. theres your problem then |
| 11:41.13 | emre_ | right at the moment qtopia.. |
| 11:41.36 | CM | Ah, heh. Maybe they expect it to be built into the kernel? |
| 11:41.39 | *** join/#openmoko zween_ (n=zween@79-68-110-42.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 11:42.02 | emre_ | but the thing is, it was working.. |
| 11:42.33 | emre_ | I plugged in another earphone (not the one shipped with neo) and I guess after that the sound is stopped. |
| 11:43.01 | ScaredyCat | does it work via the earhpones? |
| 11:43.06 | emre_ | no. |
| 11:43.35 | emre_ | let me try with other images I have.. |
| 11:44.15 | torpor | one thing i don't get is when i burn a freshly-built image, then do an ipkg update and upgrade, there's tons of packages upgraded. |
| 11:44.23 | torpor | how come thats not all in my freshly built image, eh? |
| 11:45.12 | hachi | hilariously, I woldn't be doing that :) |
| 11:45.41 | ScaredyCat | yell ... |
| 11:45.46 | ScaredyCat | errm, |
| 11:46.04 | ScaredyCat | well all the packages installed from the image, they would be the latest - yes |
| 11:46.19 | ScaredyCat | assuming your image was made after any updates.... |
| 11:46.31 | torpor | yeah |
| 11:46.35 | torpor | it was |
| 11:46.41 | torpor | i.e. a freshly done 'make update all' this morning .. |
| 11:47.09 | ScaredyCat | but where are your ipkg updatesfrom? |
| 11:47.15 | *** join/#openmoko Risto (n=christop@p508CE737.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:47.23 | torpor | the default sources. |
| 11:47.37 | torpor | plus i have a little thing called scaredycat.conf too .. |
| 11:48.29 | ScaredyCat | yeah, so when my stuff gets built, if mine were made after yours you'll get mine |
| 11:48.42 | ScaredyCat | iyswim |
| 11:48.48 | torpor | hmm. |
| 11:49.34 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@X035d.x.pppool.de) |
| 11:49.41 | torpor | you built it today? |
| 11:49.45 | torpor | i.e. an hour ago? |
| 11:49.48 | ScaredyCat | i do lots of make update, make of openmoko feed and my own extrast too |
| 11:49.50 | ScaredyCat | yes |
| 11:49.58 | ScaredyCat | twice today |
| 11:50.04 | torpor | yeah i do too .. but i guess its not just scaredy repo that gets updates. |
| 11:50.07 | edistar | ScaredyCat: what kind of work do you do? |
| 11:50.14 | torpor | Upgrading openmoko-theme-standard2 on root from 0.1.1+svnr3289-r5 to 0.1.1+svnr3425-r5... |
| 11:50.17 | torpor | Downloading http://buildhost.openmoko.org/OM2007.2/tmp/deploy/glibc/ipk/all/openmoko-theme-standard2_0.1.1+svnr3425-r5_all.ipk |
| 11:50.20 | torpor | see? |
| 11:50.26 | ScaredyCat | 3rd update (packages ) running now |
| 11:50.45 | torpor | ok |
| 11:50.49 | ScaredyCat | different svn revision numbers |
| 11:50.55 | torpor | also why isn't the SD card being mounted? |
| 11:51.07 | torpor | please don't tell me its because the image doesn't have modules. |
| 11:51.08 | torpor | i hate that. |
| 11:51.44 | ScaredyCat | edistar: atm I do web stuff and drivers and stuff - I work for a company called MultiThread, we also run linitx.com |
| 11:52.02 | ScaredyCat | it should do |
| 11:52.08 | edistar | ok |
| 11:52.09 | ScaredyCat | what format is the sd in? |
| 11:52.13 | torpor | fat |
| 11:52.20 | ScaredyCat | k, should be ok then |
| 11:52.22 | ScaredyCat | mmmm |
| 11:52.25 | torpor | not mounting |
| 11:52.44 | ScaredyCat | even if you ' mount /media/card '? |
| 11:52.59 | ScaredyCat | did you reformat it? |
| 11:53.03 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@85.233.59.8.static.cablesurf.de) |
| 11:53.19 | torpor | nope |
| 11:53.22 | torpor | no mmc device found |
| 11:53.32 | torpor | shutting down and checking its inserted properly .. |
| 11:53.47 | ScaredyCat | edistar: I get to play with a lot of linux stuff... we import quite a bit of hardware too... |
| 11:54.26 | ScaredyCat | and since a lot of it is 'windows only' we like to try to add something for our linux customers too |
| 11:54.33 | edistar | ah, cool |
| 11:54.52 | torpor | ScaredyCat: good job. got any small-form factor PC's you wanna recommend, with built-in screens? |
| 11:54.56 | torpor | miniitx formfactor? |
| 11:55.11 | torpor | i wanna put a PC in a Virus KB keyboard (synthesizer) |
| 11:55.35 | ScaredyCat | when you say built in screen - you mean lcd? |
| 11:55.49 | ScaredyCat | or tft |
| 11:55.53 | torpor | yeah |
| 11:56.01 | ScaredyCat | ie a 40 x 4 line thing or a real vga type thing? |
| 11:56.12 | ScaredyCat | the minibox ones are small... |
| 11:56.31 | torpor | real vga |
| 11:56.48 | torpor | No results for 'minibox' |
| 11:56.59 | ScaredyCat | ok... well the only vga built in screens we have are indash jobbies.. |
| 11:57.13 | edistar | ScaredyCat: which country? |
| 11:57.26 | ScaredyCat | ost of our customers go for the linitx screens, then prefab their dash, so I guess you could do the same |
| 11:57.40 | ScaredyCat | edistar: we're in the UK, we serive the world :) |
| 11:57.42 | ScaredyCat | service |
| 11:58.22 | ScaredyCat | just got a new carrier for shipping in Europe, much better for the customer - cheaper... and service as good as ups/fedex |
| 11:59.06 | hachi | people want a steampunk case for the neo? |
| 11:59.08 | ScaredyCat | torpor: http://linitx.com/search.php?keywords=mini-box&Submit=Search |
| 11:59.17 | ScaredyCat | hachi: |
| 11:59.34 | hachi | yeah, I do too |
| 11:59.55 | ScaredyCat | our lcd screens (linitx ones get good reviews) |
| 12:00.03 | hachi | I'd love to have a brass case on the thing |
| 12:00.07 | edistar | ScaredyCat: do you have thin clients? |
| 12:00.28 | ScaredyCat | some, most of them are a bit lardy like me... :P |
| 12:00.51 | ScaredyCat | http://linitx.com/viewcategory.php?catid=198&pp=198 |
| 12:00.54 | ScaredyCat | edistar: |
| 12:01.05 | ScaredyCat | they're very easy to build tbh... |
| 12:01.08 | edistar | ScaredyCat: how much do they cost? my school needs some, you wouldn't mind sponsoring a german school, would you? :P |
| 12:01.42 | ScaredyCat | standard hardware + something like thinstation... |
| 12:01.51 | ScaredyCat | hehe, if only |
| 12:02.30 | ScaredyCat | it really depends, if you particularly want small boxes, you end up paying a premium. |
| 12:03.15 | ScaredyCat | just look at via's el cheapo itx range of boards, you can build a thin client for 100 - 135 eur |
| 12:03.16 | edistar | ScaredyCat: just want to boot from an LTSP server, and have these clients really cheap |
| 12:03.45 | *** join/#openmoko johan_ (n=johan@80.174.138.157.dyn.user.ono.com) |
| 12:03.46 | ScaredyCat | iirc the mobo is 60 usd, which is like 40 eur or somehting |
| 12:03.46 | *** join/#openmoko bentob0x (n=laurent@ip-213-49-79-14.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 12:04.07 | edistar | ScaredyCat: which one? |
| 12:04.50 | ScaredyCat | the via PC-1 |
| 12:04.54 | ScaredyCat | k, off for food, bbiab... |
| 12:05.13 | ScaredyCat | just msg me if you want some info |
| 12:05.18 | edistar | ScaredyCat: thx |
| 12:06.22 | *** join/#openmoko Any_Key (n=Any_Key@bzq-84-108-121-143.cablep.bezeqint.net) |
| 12:13.54 | torpor | i want an *anything* case for the neo |
| 12:13.57 | torpor | sick of the plastic. |
| 12:14.13 | ixs | I wan't a brushed aluminium case |
| 12:14.18 | ixs | and a rugged one |
| 12:14.19 | ixs | and a pony. |
| 12:14.21 | ixs | okaY? |
| 12:15.03 | *** join/#openmoko baird (n=cbaird@brushtail.apana.org.au) |
| 12:15.27 | *** join/#openmoko rbs-tito (n=tito@88-107-81-77.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 12:16.07 | *** join/#openmoko ruoso (n=ruoso@85.138.47.43) |
| 12:16.12 | hachi | everyone wants a pony |
| 12:16.44 | *** join/#openmoko Marcel_M (n=Marcel_M@86.59.65.236) |
| 12:16.45 | hachi | Ima try and figure out why screen doesn't work on my neo, anyone done that yet? |
| 12:17.28 | CM | hachi: Not that I know |
| 12:17.31 | *** join/#openmoko dinamich (n=damjan@ub141-7.static.adsl.volja.net) |
| 12:17.44 | hachi | aww, I think my phone just went to sleep |
| 12:18.55 | hachi | CM, cool... I like it a lot better than 'cu' as a tty endpoint |
| 12:18.57 | *** join/#openmoko Zword (n=Zword@bos94-3-82-226-234-106.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 12:20.05 | CM | I run screen all the time everywhere :) |
| 12:20.15 | *** join/#openmoko edistar_ (n=edistar@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 12:20.29 | hachi | but you don't run it on your phone |
| 12:20.33 | dinamich | has anybody tired to use qemu-neo1973/openmoko/download.sh and flash.sh today? The openmoko/flash.sh is failing for me, quemu gets stuck when it uses rootfs image. |
| 12:20.33 | hachi | so, I'm gonna fix that |
| 12:20.42 | CM | Ecellent :) |
| 12:20.56 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=dr@vnsecurity.net) |
| 12:21.30 | hachi | well carp |
| 12:21.33 | hachi | it worked this time |
| 12:21.35 | CM | dinamich: Been problems with that lately, I'll try and see if I can get it running here |
| 12:22.16 | dinamich | maybe image `OpenMoko-openmoko-devel-image-glibc-ipk-P1-Snapshot-20071113-fic-gta01.rootfs.jffs2` is broken? |
| 12:22.32 | CM | dinamich: Are you using the moko makefile? |
| 12:22.50 | ScaredyCat | hachi: screen works, it'll just take ages if your termcap is massie, like the default one |
| 12:23.01 | ScaredyCat | massive |
| 12:23.08 | hachi | ahh, that's what it is |
| 12:23.18 | dinamich | I just checkedout svn trunk and follwed wiki pages for quemu |
| 12:23.19 | hachi | dang, I was hoping to fix something that I could handle :) |
| 12:24.42 | CM | dinamich: Ok. I'm building it with the MokoMakefile and that seems to work, booting now at least |
| 12:24.51 | *** join/#openmoko ossman (n=drzeus@gateway.drzeus.cx) |
| 12:26.05 | CM | Heh, takes about 4 minutes to boot OpenMoko in qemu on my comp.. |
| 12:26.17 | dinamich | CM: i didn't use MokoMakefile, because i don't have 12G free space |
| 12:26.30 | CM | dinamich: Ah, ok. Hmm.. |
| 12:26.55 | CM | It also uses the latest svn trunk, so it should be the same |
| 12:27.03 | dinamich | CM: maybe i should increase timeout then in openmoko/flash.sh script!? |
| 12:27.15 | CM | No, that's not the problem I think |
| 12:27.39 | CM | Sometimes it doesn't find the rootfs at all, but it still gives that error message |
| 12:27.42 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-189-28.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 12:28.38 | dinamich | CM: well, i have celeron laptop about 1.6GHz and quemu is using full cpu, then script aborts with timeout |
| 12:29.40 | CM | Hmm.. then maybe. I have 4 year old amd64, and it just takes seconds to flash, not 5 minutes |
| 12:29.59 | dinamich | CM: the u-boot and kernel phases of flash.sh get done, so my quemu is probably working ok |
| 12:30.39 | dinamich | CM: but quemu with rootfs gets stuck, 100% cpu.... |
| 12:30.40 | edistar_ | dinamich: openmoko/flash.sh has been getting stuck for a few days now.. |
| 12:30.58 | edistar_ | dinamich: I get a timeout too |
| 12:31.18 | dinamich | edistar_: maybe it is not me after all |
| 12:31.34 | edistar_ | dinamich: you didn't use the makefile, did you? |
| 12:32.10 | dinamich | edistar_: no, dont have enougs HDD space, just svn of trunk |
| 12:32.33 | edistar_ | dinamich: thats what I did too, what does flash.sh say when it times out? |
| 12:35.59 | dinamich | edistar_: output of flash.sh at http://pastebin.com/d3b10fdbf (i modified rootfs timeout to 400 seconds) |
| 12:38.23 | CM | dinamich: I just did a "make qemu-local" and it flashed my locally built image |
| 12:38.36 | CM | It took a while to flash the rootfs, but it worked. Booting now.. |
| 12:39.27 | edistar_ | dinamich: yep, thats the same problem that I have |
| 12:39.31 | dinamich | CM: maybe the snapshot that I am using is not good |
| 12:40.43 | dinamich | ok, thanks both edistar_ and CM, i think i will go makefile route (just need to free some HDD space:)) |
| 12:40.55 | CM | dinamich: Prepare for some buildtime then.. |
| 12:41.08 | CM | I'm guessing 12h or so on your laptop |
| 12:41.10 | dinamich | jeah;) |
| 12:42.01 | dinamich | bye |
| 12:42.05 | CM | later |
| 12:42.11 | *** part/#openmoko dinamich (n=damjan@ub141-7.static.adsl.volja.net) |
| 12:43.17 | *** join/#openmoko Ophelia (n=Ophelia@pD9EAAE61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 12:45.35 | CM | Heh, really sucks to run OpenMoko in qemu. Awfully slow.. |
| 12:45.50 | *** join/#openmoko NaPs (n=Unknown@tecknet.org) |
| 12:45.56 | edistar_ | CM: true |
| 12:46.01 | *** join/#openmoko haakeyar (n=haakeyar@c9C364BC1.dhcp.bluecom.no) |
| 12:46.05 | edistar_ | CM: how do you run it if you don't have a device? |
| 12:46.18 | CM | I do have one.. :) |
| 12:46.36 | CM | Has anyone ever gotten Xoo to work properly? |
| 12:46.41 | edistar_ | CM: that wasn't my question :) |
| 12:47.52 | edistar_ | CM: I did once, yes |
| 12:47.56 | edistar_ | CM: but it doesn't work anymore |
| 12:48.09 | edistar_ | CM: I used Xephyr |
| 12:48.17 | CM | I tried a few times this summer, also using xephyr |
| 12:48.26 | CM | Got it to start, but no further than that |
| 12:49.04 | edistar_ | the pixels were much to big, couldn't work with it ;) |
| 12:49.11 | CM | Hehe |
| 12:49.36 | edistar_ | I am still waiting for someone to build OM for maemo devices.. then I could test it on my N770 ;) |
| 12:59.42 | CM | Huge but interesting post on version control systems: http://blogs.gnome.org/newren/2007/11/17/adoption-of-various-vcses/ |
| 13:00.30 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@X035d.x.pppool.de) |
| 13:01.19 | *** join/#openmoko dread (n=markus@ip-141-31-178-166.selfnet.de) |
| 13:03.54 | *** join/#openmoko demaledetti (n=ste@83.225.196.42) |
| 13:04.05 | hachi | someone earlier before I did my flash run told me where to properly store things I don't want to have blown away |
| 13:04.08 | hachi | where is that? |
| 13:04.56 | CM | hachi: Heh, on that card you don't have yet |
| 13:05.08 | CM | I have a lot of stuff in /media/card/ :) |
| 13:05.25 | hachi | ahh, okay, that explains why I don't see a logical mountpoint |
| 13:06.13 | CM | I'd like to see some attempt to run OpenMoko as a user instead of everything being root, but I guess that's quite some time away |
| 13:06.23 | CM | iPhone runs everything as root |
| 13:06.44 | CM | Android is cool though, does the total opposite. Every process supposedly is it's own user |
| 13:07.02 | CM | Of the user started processes that it |
| 13:07.02 | CM | is |
| 13:10.26 | edistar | will openmoko run everything as root :-o |
| 13:10.29 | edistar | ? |
| 13:10.54 | CM | It's supposed to be changed, but right now all is run as root |
| 13:11.23 | hachi | ldap auth on phone |
| 13:11.28 | hachi | wait no |
| 13:11.30 | edistar | then one bad app can erase the root partition? thats very insecure :P |
| 13:11.31 | hachi | kerberos auth |
| 13:11.43 | edistar | hachi: ldap would be fun :P |
| 13:11.51 | edistar | hachi: companies could enforce ldap login |
| 13:12.44 | hachi | okay, anyone wanna explain to me why there's an ircd user in the passwd file on my phone? |
| 13:12.54 | hachi | are you begging me to load an ircd on this thing? |
| 13:13.26 | edistar | hachi: why not? |
| 13:13.27 | hachi | also an lp user |
| 13:13.37 | hachi | I need a USB dot matrix printer please |
| 13:14.22 | CM | hehe |
| 13:14.27 | edistar | hachi: download one ;) |
| 13:14.51 | hachi | aww, no perl built on moko |
| 13:15.33 | hachi | guess I'll have to write things in C |
| 13:15.35 | CM | How big is perl? I assume there's an ipkg in oe for it |
| 13:16.16 | hachi | too big, it comes with all the unicode tables and crap built into it these days |
| 13:16.31 | ScaredyCat | [-------------------] <----- not to sale |
| 13:16.36 | *** join/#openmoko Marex-notebook (n=marex@vasut.kolej.mff.cuni.cz) |
| 13:16.43 | CM | Ok. Python isn't that big |
| 13:16.50 | CM | ScaredyCat: I think your c key is broken |
| 13:16.52 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__ (i=disguy__@gateway/tor/x-90c81055035b1965) |
| 13:16.58 | ScaredyCat | bleh |
| 13:17.01 | ScaredyCat | [-------------------] <----- not to scale |
| 13:17.18 | hachi | python isn't evil enough for me |
| 13:17.19 | ScaredyCat | just aking sure you were paying attention |
| 13:17.42 | CM | Hehe.. No c, no m, what are you trying to tell me? |
| 13:17.50 | CM | :P |
| 13:17.54 | ScaredyCat | ;) |
| 13:20.24 | hachi | awww... gps doesn't have a driver yet |
| 13:20.25 | hachi | bleh |
| 13:20.29 | hachi | that shoots my first idea |
| 13:20.50 | CM | hachi: Did you see ScaredyCat's scap? |
| 13:21.01 | hachi | obviously not |
| 13:21.04 | hachi | what's a scap? |
| 13:21.08 | CM | http://scap.linuxtogo.org/ |
| 13:21.12 | CM | hachi: Second image |
| 13:22.23 | CM | hachi: if you've configured networking on your neo, and take a screenshot (aux button), you can automaticly upload it to scaps.ltg.o just by clicking a button |
| 13:22.40 | hachi | did I read the wiki wrong, or is that a result of the reverse engineering efforts? |
| 13:23.02 | CM | I'd say it's a wrapper around the oabi gllin binary driver.. |
| 13:25.05 | *** join/#openmoko rmoravcik (n=rmoravci@adsl-d100.84-47-105.t-com.sk) |
| 13:37.40 | *** join/#openmoko oc2k1 (n=oc2k1@p5B1065C0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:38.02 | *** join/#openmoko rmoravcik (n=rmoravci@adsl-d100.84-47-105.t-com.sk) |
| 13:39.06 | ruxpin | cool screenshots |
| 13:41.38 | *** join/#openmoko death-row (n=pierre@217.20.125.101) |
| 13:50.13 | *** join/#openmoko uda (n=uda@ppp150-101-170-229.lns1.per1.internode.on.net) |
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| 13:58.50 | uda | how goes bluetooth on gta01? |
| 13:58.59 | SpeedEvil | fine |
| 13:59.11 | SpeedEvil | it's like bluetooth on any other linux machien |
| 14:00.48 | uda | thats great to hear |
| 14:01.17 | CM | It's using the normal bluez libs :) |
| 14:02.46 | *** join/#openmoko smartbhai (n=smartbha@116.68.96.68) |
| 14:04.51 | *** join/#openmoko gamin (n=m@car06-3-82-240-156-91.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:04.53 | mmp | hello, is there any static qemu binary for linux as there is for windows? |
| 14:06.35 | thomasg | mmp: ask your distro |
| 14:06.40 | balrog_ | not the one that emulates neo1973 afaik |
| 14:07.03 | balrog_ | but if you roll a package, feel free to upload it to the wiki |
| 14:07.19 | mmp | well, I'll have to overcome my laziness:) |
| 14:07.26 | CM | The win binary is 5 months old.. Yikes |
| 14:08.08 | balrog_ | perhaps dfu-util, devirginator etc could also have packages for some main distros put up on the wiki |
| 14:09.15 | mmp | argh, again the gcc-3.3 limitation :-( |
| 14:09.50 | CM | Yes, qemu problem |
| 14:09.55 | CM | mmp: What distro are you on? |
| 14:10.04 | borg_ | mmp: under debian/ubuntu you can install gcc3 and gcc4 |
| 14:10.54 | balrog_ | hum on the other hand maintaining the package up-to-date will be a bit of pain... |
| 14:11.02 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=dr@vnsecurity.net) |
| 14:11.40 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@mne69-9-88-163-116-163.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:11.56 | mmp | CM: gentoo:) |
| 14:12.40 | balrog_ | on gentoo i think both gcc's are present by defalt |
| 14:12.50 | *** join/#openmoko Q_Continuum (n=Q@75-168-118-61.mpls.qwest.net) |
| 14:13.20 | CM | mmp: Me too. You might have to do a ln -s /usr/bin/gcc-3.4.6 /usr/bin/gcc-3.4 though, because qemu just looks for gcc-3 and gcc-3.x |
| 14:13.55 | mmp | CM: well, if I had gcc-3.x at all :-/ |
| 14:14.03 | mmp | I recently depcleaned whole system... |
| 14:14.14 | CM | Hehe, just emerge it again then :) |
| 14:16.27 | balrog_ | CM: not anymore |
| 14:16.42 | CM | balrog_: Ah, nice :) |
| 14:17.13 | CM | balrog_: I did say "might" because it hasn't been as many questions about that lately as it was before |
| 14:17.26 | balrog_ | ah okay |
| 14:17.43 | balrog_ | you can also use --cc=gcc-7.5.15 |
| 14:18.01 | CM | 7.5.15? |
| 14:18.05 | CM | What's that? |
| 14:18.24 | balrog_ | i mean if you had a compiler under that name that ./configure doesn't know about :) |
| 14:18.37 | CM | Ah, ok.. :D |
| 14:21.55 | *** join/#openmoko dcordes (n=user20@f048011150.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 14:25.44 | CM | Cool game for a tablet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsTqspnvAaI |
| 14:40.07 | *** join/#openmoko simon_ (n=simon@dyn167240.wlan.jku.at) |
| 14:42.29 | *** join/#openmoko Lucas- (n=mattm@i-195-137-68-39.freedom2surf.net) |
| 14:42.39 | borg_ | CM: cool |
| 14:42.41 | borg_ | is this opensource? |
| 14:43.59 | edistar | borg_: can't find any mention of any licence on the website |
| 14:44.09 | borg_ | me too |
| 14:44.17 | borg_ | just for the pictures and sounds |
| 14:44.23 | borg_ | Music: _ghost - Lullaby. The song is used under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 2.5 -license. |
| 14:44.26 | borg_ | The game uses Erin Catto’s Box2D physics engine. |
| 14:44.28 | borg_ | The graphics of the game are under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.0 -license. |
| 14:44.51 | edistar | yes |
| 14:45.20 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AF80D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:45.21 | edistar | borg_: there is no sourcecode in the download |
| 14:45.31 | borg_ | but i think it isnt that hard to make a clon of it ;) |
| 14:46.23 | edistar | borg_: no idea, a friend of mine tried to write a physics engine once, and failed.. but maybe he is just not such a genius ;) |
| 14:47.40 | borg_ | edistar: we had to program something similar at the animations course here in the university |
| 14:47.54 | borg_ | it is pretty easy to fake this gravity effects |
| 14:47.58 | edistar | borg_: cool, do you have the source somewhere? |
| 14:48.01 | edistar | heh |
| 14:48.22 | borg_ | i do |
| 14:50.17 | borg_ | edistar: http://cs.wcsu.edu/upb/ |
| 14:50.24 | borg_ | look at the assignments |
| 14:50.36 | edistar | borg_: ok |
| 14:50.50 | borg_ | i can send you the source for this if you like |
| 14:50.53 | borg_ | but its java |
| 14:50.54 | borg_ | :\ |
| 14:51.14 | edistar | hm.. I'm not into java that much, we did that at school, but I don't like it ;) |
| 14:51.21 | borg_ | yes, me too :) |
| 14:51.24 | balrog_ | the hard part is collisions in physics engines |
| 14:51.44 | borg_ | ah ok, the first assignment is about collisions :) |
| 14:52.27 | edistar | borg_: at least you get nice assignments, we got something like: make the program draw a table and make an input box, write a list class and sort the input |
| 14:52.40 | edistar | borg_: that was fun... we did that kind of thing for about 2 years |
| 14:53.18 | balrog_ | borg_: the kind of collisions where more than two bodies touch, for example when a ball is lying stable on three other balls |
| 14:53.47 | Stephmw | edistar: not everybody gets to write games for a living ;) |
| 14:54.13 | borg_ | balrog_: ah ok |
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| 14:55.52 | borg_ | balrog_: the results of assignment 2 were most amazing |
| 14:56.32 | balrog_ | ewww .ppt |
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| 14:59.48 | edistar | Stephmw: true again.. |
| 15:00.41 | edistar | how can I stop my build generating locales? |
| 15:01.47 | *** join/#openmoko fabv (i=fabv@gateway/tor/x-37b1555534d6ffb2) |
| 15:02.44 | borg_ | lol |
| 15:02.45 | borg_ | i hate java |
| 15:02.56 | borg_ | i cant get my assignments running anymore :) |
| 15:02.58 | abraxa_ | edistar: ENABLE_BINARY_LOCALE_GENERATION = "0" in your local.conf |
| 15:03.13 | edistar | abraxa_: how much time would you think does that save? |
| 15:03.17 | edistar | abraxa_: thx |
| 15:03.24 | borg_ | who ever invented classpath |
| 15:03.29 | abraxa_ | "time" is sooo relative :) |
| 15:03.35 | borg_ | he should surely be killed :) |
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| 15:04.18 | Stephmw | borg_: the inventor of the classpath concept was a genius! talk about job security :) |
| 15:04.27 | borg_ | :D |
| 15:04.27 | edistar | borg_: classpath? |
| 15:04.46 | Stephmw | borg_: it's also damn useful for overlaying paths (unit testing, etc) |
| 15:05.16 | borg_ | Stephmw: it is usefull |
| 15:05.19 | Stephmw | *ahem*, but back on topic |
| 15:05.23 | borg_ | but it is too complicated :) |
| 15:05.37 | edistar | Stephmw: which topic? ;) |
| 15:06.01 | borg_ | edistar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classpath |
| 15:06.55 | edistar | borg_: thanks |
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| 15:21.17 | CM | edistar: Saved over 1h for me |
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| 15:24.56 | edistar | CM: I'll see how much it saves for me |
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| 16:23.00 | edistar | is there a way to blend out the buttons in the browser? a lot of space is being wasted by that.. |
| 16:23.22 | CM | edistar: I think there's a bug filed against that |
| 16:23.30 | edistar | CM: ok |
| 16:23.44 | CM | Default, only 52% or so of the browser window is showing the actual page ;) |
| 16:23.50 | edistar | hehe |
| 16:25.12 | edistar | I really like safari in the iphone, it's the only thing I like about it |
| 16:25.36 | edistar | scrollbars will disappear I hope? |
| 16:25.49 | CM | yes |
| 16:26.00 | edistar | good |
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| 16:26.15 | edistar | I thought kinetic scrolling was implemented systemwide already.. |
| 16:26.24 | CM | it was |
| 16:26.33 | CM | But it crashed webkit |
| 16:26.52 | edistar | CM: how that? |
| 16:26.55 | BBishop | any chance we'll be able to have a module to encrypt the comunication ? |
| 16:26.55 | CM | I think koen re-enabled it a week ago or so, but it's not in the locked src-rev in openmoko |
| 16:27.17 | CM | So finger scrolling should be implemented already |
| 16:27.20 | edistar | CM: how could it crash webkit? |
| 16:27.34 | CM | edistar: I have no clue, I only see rumours here and in #oe ;) |
| 16:27.42 | edistar | ok :) |
| 16:27.48 | edistar | CM: thanks anyway for all the info |
| 16:27.48 | CM | Btw, if you try to surf to wikipedia.org, the browser crashes too |
| 16:27.55 | CM | Annoys the hell out of me |
| 16:28.09 | edistar | CM: is that a problem of webkit or of the OM implementation? |
| 16:28.13 | *** join/#openmoko yerga (n=yerga@87.223.214.89) |
| 16:28.32 | CM | I'd say either the version of webkit used in openmoko-browser2 or the browser itself |
| 16:28.47 | edistar | ok |
| 16:30.23 | torpor | what other repo's are good as well as scaredy's? |
| 16:30.29 | torpor | you guys sharing repo's? |
| 16:34.01 | BBishop | still ... I wonder if there will be a way to encrypt the conversation .. |
| 16:35.13 | edistar | BBishop: you mean scramble/descramble the audio? |
| 16:35.34 | SpeedEvil | BBishop: it's non-trivial |
| 16:35.39 | BBishop | yeah .. but I'd like to be able to really encrypt the conversation :) |
| 16:35.42 | SpeedEvil | BBishop: you can't do it nicely |
| 16:35.55 | BBishop | SpeedEvil, well .. doesn't matter .. I just want to know if I'll be able to make a module or something |
| 16:35.59 | SpeedEvil | BBishop: in that the GSM chipset only has audio in/out |
| 16:36.06 | SpeedEvil | so you have to do it in data mode |
| 16:36.12 | BBishop | yeah |
| 16:36.26 | SpeedEvil | And many providers don't support data mode, and charge more. |
| 16:36.42 | mjr | seriously, does somebody not support it? |
| 16:36.43 | balrog_ | there are ways to encrypt analog audio |
| 16:36.45 | SpeedEvil | Or you do it with VOIP, and eat a 2s or so delay - which workd fine for PTT |
| 16:36.49 | mjr | charge more, yes... |
| 16:36.50 | SpeedEvil | not really balrog. |
| 16:37.14 | BBishop | well .. let's just say I'd like to change the pitch or amplitude of the voice |
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| 16:37.29 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: the fundamental problem is that GSM is designed to throw away non-speech-like signals, and on errors to make something that doesn't sound much different to the input voice |
| 16:37.39 | BBishop | I'd like to be able to work with the imput voice data flow |
| 16:37.40 | SpeedEvil | with non-voce signals, that' reaqlly brittle |
| 16:37.47 | SpeedEvil | BBishop: oh you can do that |
| 16:38.01 | SpeedEvil | stuff like pitch alteration on calls from designated numbers |
| 16:38.11 | SpeedEvil | for example if you find someone has an annoyingly high voice |
| 16:38.17 | SpeedEvil | (in principle, SMOP) |
| 16:38.25 | BBishop | no no .. I meant modifyin' my voice |
| 16:38.25 | balrog_ | SpeedEvil: they sometimes make the signal lose some quality after decoding, but you can encode audio so that it remains a speech-like audio signal but is incomprehensible with no key to decode |
| 16:38.28 | BBishop | to any number |
| 16:38.33 | SpeedEvil | BBishop: yhes - that way too |
| 16:38.42 | balrog_ | brb |
| 16:38.44 | BBishop | like balrog_ is sayin' |
| 16:38.56 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: yes - that's messy - but 1300 bits/s over GSM has been done |
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| 16:39.08 | SpeedEvil | BBishop: or that - yes, you can vary the voice |
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| 16:39.24 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: that way you do VOIPOV |
| 16:39.36 | SpeedEvil | and strong encryption/one-time-pad in the middle |
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| 16:40.05 | BBishop | kewl .. I can barely wait for 02 then :) |
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| 16:40.40 | SpeedEvil | All of this is in principle of course - nobodies written the software |
| 16:40.50 | BBishop | I'lll try :) |
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| 16:41.45 | SpeedEvil | There is a paper online somewhere about the data encoding over GSM voice links. |
| 16:41.46 | mjr | realistically, encrypted calls with gsm-data without a huge effort |
| 16:41.53 | SpeedEvil | mjr: yeah |
| 16:42.01 | SpeedEvil | mjr: or VOIP with push-talk |
| 16:42.29 | SpeedEvil | I do wonder if there are any speech recognitions that we can get on the neo. |
| 16:42.37 | SpeedEvil | even speaker tuned |
| 16:42.37 | BBishop | as long as I can get the voice somehow .. and apply an algorithm to it |
| 16:42.43 | BBishop | same thing to the other end .. |
| 16:42.48 | SpeedEvil | BBishop: you can't |
| 16:43.00 | BBishop | damn |
| 16:43.05 | SpeedEvil | BBishop: basically you can do analog transforms that make it sound voice like |
| 16:43.22 | SpeedEvil | BBishop: but the GSM voice channel is _not_ a transparent analog channel |
| 16:43.37 | BBishop | dang |
| 16:43.38 | SpeedEvil | It's very lossy codec designed to throw non-voice components away |
| 16:44.10 | SpeedEvil | you can send data over it at reasonable rates only by basically building a synthetic vocal tract, and exciting it with data - not speech |
| 16:44.19 | balrog_ | you have to use an algorith that doesn't just encode data into a voice-like signal, |
| 16:44.27 | SpeedEvil | so that each 'syllable' carries 20-40 bits |
| 16:44.32 | balrog_ | it needs to take advantage of the fact that input signal is also voice-like |
| 16:44.51 | BBishop | .. so it'll be a pain in the ass .. |
| 16:45.40 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: it can't realistically do that - otherwise you compromise the encryption. It's got to be a general purpose voice-data codec, that runs over the data-voice codec that you connect to the GSM modem |
| 16:46.08 | SpeedEvil | BBishop: basically, yes. You can get toy 'voice changer' functionality out of it easily - but no actual encryption without much effort |
| 16:46.38 | balrog_ | SpeedEvil: you can, i just don't remember the names of the algorithms because i wasn't interested in that, but generally "encoding" doesn't mean digital |
| 16:46.46 | BBishop | can't I transform it into a hissing thing .. like the old dial-up modems did |
| 16:46.51 | BBishop | ? :) that would be cool |
| 16:46.54 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: in this case unfortunately it does |
| 16:47.20 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: because the encoding schemes that you can do result in 'data' that the GSM codec discards as it's not voice like |
| 16:47.27 | cjb_ie | the hissing has very information content which codec will discard |
| 16:47.35 | cjb_ie | SpeedEvil: damn your nimble fingers |
| 16:47.40 | zash | BBishop: just invent your own language |
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| 16:47.53 | cjb_ie | we need a navajo gsm codec ;-) |
| 16:47.56 | SpeedEvil | Try playing music or whatever over GSM and see how it copes. |
| 16:48.06 | SpeedEvil | Simple single note stuff just about gets through OK |
| 16:48.12 | SpeedEvil | Or a vocal |
| 16:48.19 | SpeedEvil | mix the two, and quality plummets |
| 16:48.32 | torpor | pulseaudio needs a good sample-rate convertor. |
| 16:48.33 | balrog_ | SpeedEvil: there are algorithms that make the signal sound speech-like, but i can't remember the algorithms so i have no good argument to back this up |
| 16:48.36 | SpeedEvil | add polyphonic stuff and it just goes to crap |
| 16:49.07 | BBishop | damn .. |
| 16:49.43 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: yes - they are generally basically half a voice synth - just synthesising the vocal tract bit that the GSM codec tries to derive the state of. |
| 16:51.10 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: you basically don't want a signal that just 'sounds' voice-like though. You want a signal that the GSM codec can efficiently and accurately extract all the information about the synthetic vocal tract that it's designed to. |
| 16:51.27 | SpeedEvil | This is annoyingly hard, and I'm not aware of published code. |
| 16:51.36 | balrog_ | SpeedEvil: well, true |
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| 16:52.36 | balrog_ | i do think it should be doable though, especially when the GSM algorithm is generally known and you can experiment with it and reverse the equations etc |
| 16:53.04 | SpeedEvil | Reversing the equations doesn't work |
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| 16:53.13 | SpeedEvil | At least the simple solution. |
| 16:53.35 | SpeedEvil | Consider for a moment if you have absolutely perfect knowledge of the input state of the GSM codec and what it's transmitting |
| 16:53.56 | balrog_ | yup |
| 16:54.15 | SpeedEvil | Your task is to derive from teh output of the analog GSM modem on teh other side what the input was |
| 16:54.26 | SpeedEvil | However, there are errors in the datastream |
| 16:54.55 | balrog_ | it's a lossy channel so you can't basically |
| 16:55.04 | SpeedEvil | which means that you've basically got to run 1024 cases for single-bit errors per frame |
| 16:55.14 | SpeedEvil | and 1 million for 2-error cases |
| 16:55.31 | SpeedEvil | and it rapidly gets out of hand - the GSM function is basically functioning as a (bad) hash |
| 16:55.47 | SpeedEvil | If you don't feed it very speech-like data |
| 16:56.18 | balrog_ | but you're not transmitting digital data, you're transmitting voice |
| 16:56.33 | balrog_ | you have to find an encoding in which the errors don't harm the signal much |
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| 16:57.42 | balrog_ | the contraint is that the encoded signal contains only frequencies in some range and the resolution is not too high |
| 16:57.48 | balrog_ | constraint |
| 16:58.14 | univac | balrog_: /j hackndev? :P |
| 16:58.25 | balrog_ | why? |
| 16:58.35 | univac | c'mon :) |
| 16:59.32 | univac | Mhm |
| 17:01.00 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: it's not that simple |
| 17:01.17 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: the GSM codec attempts to work out the state of the vocal tract of a human being |
| 17:01.23 | SpeedEvil | this is what it's optimised to do. |
| 17:01.53 | SpeedEvil | As you depart from what it's expecting to model, signal/noise (in the binary sense) drops |
| 17:02.18 | SpeedEvil | In that the amount of data you can pass through the channel drops as you depart from what the GSM codec expects to be modeling. |
| 17:02.34 | balrog_ | SpeedEvil: well, yes, the constraints are slightly more complex than that, but still you need to explit the fact that the input signal and the part of the input signal that is relevant, fits with this contraints |
| 17:03.17 | SpeedEvil | By input signal, are you meaning the voice input to the encryptor - before it's sent over the GSM channel? |
| 17:03.26 | balrog_ | SpeedEvil: right |
| 17:04.36 | SpeedEvil | Basically you can't exploit the input signals charachteristics to send it encrypted over the channel, as it then leaks information about that input voice signal |
| 17:05.35 | balrog_ | SpeedEvil: only if you do it poorly |
| 17:06.11 | balrog_ | there's part of information that is relevant in the signal and there is part of information that the GSM channel passes through |
| 17:06.19 | balrog_ | in normal scenario this is the same subset |
| 17:06.46 | balrog_ | you need to enocde the signal so that the information stays in this subset |
| 17:07.24 | SpeedEvil | oops - afk |
| 17:07.45 | balrog_ | laters |
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| 17:18.04 | edistar | BBishop: you see, it will be a bit of work ;) |
| 17:18.16 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n_ (n=parag0n@87.194.100.170) |
| 17:18.21 | BBishop | yeah .. but it can be done ! |
| 17:18.22 | BBishop | :) |
| 17:18.34 | edistar | BBishop: I would settle for VoIP and encryption ;) |
| 17:18.45 | edistar | BBishop: or implement it on a 5 ghz quad core ;) |
| 17:19.06 | SpeedEvil | edistar: GTA0120 |
| 17:19.18 | edistar | SpeedEvil: I am looking forward to it ;) |
| 17:19.34 | BBishop | wouldn't using voip mean using the internet connection ? |
| 17:19.38 | edistar | SpeedEvil: maybe it will be GTB0120 by then ;) |
| 17:19.41 | edistar | BBishop: yes |
| 17:19.43 | edistar | BBishop: data |
| 17:20.18 | SpeedEvil | edistar: GTB would mean changing the case |
| 17:20.40 | edistar | SpeedEvil: oh, I am not aware of how they name |
| 17:20.56 | BBishop | using the internet is not an option :) |
| 17:21.14 | BBishop | well .. is there a way then to encode the voice between 2 moko devices ? |
| 17:21.23 | edistar | BBishop: via gsm? |
| 17:21.25 | BBishop | yeah |
| 17:21.35 | cjb_ie | ...and how do you tell the device at the other end is a moko? |
| 17:21.38 | edistar | BBishop: didn't you read? '_ |
| 17:21.49 | BBishop | cjb_ie, that's not the problem .. |
| 17:21.55 | BBishop | I don't care about other phones :) |
| 17:22.03 | SpeedEvil | BBishop: in principle yes. In practice, it's going to be _serious_ amounts of coding |
| 17:22.19 | BBishop | edistar, I kinda' did ... that's why I was asking .. damn |
| 17:22.29 | edistar | BBishop: no, doesn't work |
| 17:22.36 | edistar | the gsm chipset filters a lot |
| 17:22.44 | edistar | and you have no influence on the gsm firmware |
| 17:22.45 | BBishop | GRRRR .. damn filters |
| 17:22.54 | BBishop | yeah .. closed source .. |
| 17:23.00 | BBishop | why is it closed source anyway ? |
| 17:23.07 | balrog_ | univac: i can't answer on msg because it asks for a registered nick |
| 17:23.27 | abraxa_ | BBishop: So you don't fiddle with the chipset and do malicious things |
| 17:23.48 | univac | balrog_: ah |
| 17:23.49 | edistar | BBishop: it's a law |
| 17:23.55 | BBishop | =)) .. damn |
| 17:23.55 | univac | balrog_: jabber? :) |
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| 17:29.41 | torpor | wtf: mount: special device /dev/mmcblk0p1 does not exist |
| 17:29.45 | torpor | is this busted in the latest image? |
| 17:29.50 | torpor | (just sick of fixing it..) |
| 17:31.09 | edistar | torpor: looks like a memory card.. |
| 17:35.11 | *** join/#openmoko cmarcelo (n=cmarcelo@200.184.118.132) |
| 17:35.30 | balrog_ | mwester: yeah, the folks assigned to gsmd don't like to consider input from people :( |
| 17:36.05 | *** join/#openmoko edistar (n=edistar@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 17:36.52 | roh | mwester: wel.. looking good. sending at-commands without gmsd is a very bad idea and generally a layering violation |
| 17:38.20 | balrog_ | it's a work around for a layering violation in GTA01 design |
| 17:38.51 | balrog_ | the AT command is in this case the only way to switch power to the gsm, and power is not manage by gsmd |
| 17:39.02 | balrog_ | *managed |
| 17:39.54 | roh | balrog_ true. but even with a real load switch powering the firmware doen before is a good idea (save states in flash, whatever). |
| 17:40.07 | *** part/#openmoko cmarcelo (n=cmarcelo@200.184.118.132) |
| 17:40.33 | roh | since by design gsmd is the only thing that should ever open that serial and run over the whole time, its right to send the power-off via gsmd instead of weird shell-hacks |
| 17:40.45 | balrog_ | roh: yeah, perhaps, but it should also be done on echo 0 > /sys/.../power_on and on kernel shutdown |
| 17:41.46 | roh | balrog_ how? sending serial chars to the modem without knowting the state of the interpreter only makes it worse. |
| 17:42.09 | roh | sending them from kernelspace would be even more ugly than a shellscript |
| 17:42.38 | balrog_ | roh: you don't know the state of the interpreter at the beginning of executing the echo 0, but the end result should always be the same |
| 17:42.48 | roh | balrog_ wrong. |
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| 17:42.53 | balrog_ | the modem should be completely down after the echo 0 > ... command finishes executing |
| 17:43.14 | roh | you do not even know if the modem is in powersave mode, or not, or even in the midst of an at-commandline still in the buffer |
| 17:43.51 | balrog_ | roh: right, but that doesn't change the fact that it shold be down when the command finishes executing |
| 17:44.25 | roh | balrog_ the echo 0 should never be neccessary. thats just not a job for a shellscript. also switching the serial between console and modem should be seperated from the power-control in my eyes. but we will see. |
| 17:44.46 | roh | atleast we will never have that hassle with gta02. real load switch and dedicated serial |
| 17:45.20 | balrog_ | roh: well, i'm not saying anything about shell scripting, but the kernel interface through /sys should work nevertheless |
| 17:45.22 | roh | btw. i cannot see anything bad in having the option to powercycle the app-cpu while having gsm up and working. |
| 17:45.44 | balrog_ | if 0 is written to the node names "power_on" then the device should be down after that |
| 17:45.48 | balrog_ | *named |
| 17:46.16 | roh | balrog_ yes. there are bugs (the crash) which needs to be fixed properly. 1 and 0 only toggle a line. it is not a STATE they toggle bug a signal it sends. |
| 17:46.27 | roh | so power_on IS labeled correctly. |
| 17:46.37 | roh | it sends a power_on signal. no power_off |
| 17:46.59 | balrog_ | roh: hmm, okay |
| 17:47.44 | balrog_ | i still think that power should be managed by the kernel though, not userspace, so there maybe should be a different node that performs a complete gsm shutdown |
| 17:47.53 | roh | i know thats all ugly. but i think we need to not mess it up even more. |
| 17:48.10 | SpeedEvil | there is fundamentally a huge blob of crap that needs to manage power |
| 17:48.22 | balrog_ | the operation should look as a single operation to the userspace, the details of it should be handled in kernel |
| 17:48.25 | SpeedEvil | everything from suspending between X events, to ... |
| 17:48.33 | roh | the kernel cannot manage power in that case. gsm is a subsystem outside its responsibility. the kernel does hardware abstraction and management of everything thats not self-sufficient |
| 17:48.49 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: you can't - without putting a _huge_ bunch of policy in the kernel. Possibly X too. |
| 17:49.20 | balrog_ | roh: if you consider AT@POFF a part of hardware interface, rather than an AT command, you can |
| 17:49.22 | roh | the gsm is self sufficient. it does not depend on the kernel to keep working. config the mixer right and make a call. and you can kill your kernel, the call will stillbe on |
| 17:49.33 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: consider that you want to suspend between touches if you can without turning off any other functionality. But playing an mp3, or doing voicemail, or ... may preclude this |
| 17:50.13 | roh | balrog_ i consider sending a 0-1 trigger to power_on the go to on signal and sending at@poff the off signal. abstract speaking. |
| 17:50.44 | roh | its like asymetric routing, in that case one part of the interface is a at-command and one a file in sysfs, exposed to userspace |
| 17:50.58 | balrog_ | SpeedEvil: the part "other functionality" is not something kernel is conerned anymore, so this case is not a purely "power management" task |
| 17:51.03 | mwester | roh: this is all theoretical, "in the pure world" stuff. |
| 17:51.06 | mjr | Incidentally. Could one run gprs through the current gpsd in passthrough mode, while having it handle incoming calls? |
| 17:51.06 | balrog_ | roh: agreed |
| 17:51.19 | mwester | roh: I wish to solve a real-world problem: the GSM modem remains powered up when the phone is off. |
| 17:51.24 | roh | wrapping it in kernelspace just makes it more ugly. using gsmd to bond it together is the right call since there we also have hardware abstraction already (the plugins) |
| 17:51.43 | mwester | roh: we CANNOT rely on gsmd because a) it is often shutdown by the user, and b) it is unreliable. |
| 17:51.44 | roh | mwester: you have compared how other phones do this? |
| 17:51.56 | roh | mwester we need to rely on gsmd. |
| 17:51.56 | mwester | roh: I don't need to know how other phones do it; other phones are closed. |
| 17:52.04 | roh | a) is false and should never happen. |
| 17:52.06 | mwester | roh: or are you just disagreeing with me becuase it's me. |
| 17:52.07 | mwester | ? |
| 17:52.14 | balrog_ | mjr: you mean gsmd? no |
| 17:52.18 | mwester | a) is true, and often happens rith now |
| 17:52.21 | roh | b) is beeing fixed partially already. i have not seen it crash very recently |
| 17:52.22 | mjr | indeed, gsmd should be relied on, and b) should be fixed to be worthy of that... |
| 17:52.24 | balrog_ | mjr: not current gsmd at leat :) |
| 17:52.27 | roh | a) is a bug. |
| 17:52.50 | mwester | roh: a) is a bug. So is the wiring of the gsm modem. We can fix neither at the moment. |
| 17:53.13 | roh | mwester no i am not disagreeing with you because of you. on the contrary. i highly regard your comments. but this is about not messing the messed up architecture up even more by adding hw abstraction where it should not be |
| 17:53.18 | mwester | Some day, maybe, gsmd will be reliable enough that your argument will hold water. Right now, hacks are required, becasue the modem wiring is a hack, and gsmd is not ready yet. |
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| 17:53.47 | roh | mwester no. shutting down gsmd is a bug. we need that ts07.10 and its gprs-line discipline. |
| 17:54.02 | mwester | Well, I'll just keep re-opening the bug until someone fixes it, and since it's open source, I'll keep an alternate firmware about if necessary. |
| 17:54.18 | roh | the wiring will not change so fast, atleast gta02 will not have anything besides power-on triggers and a loadswitch for safety. |
| 17:54.32 | roh | and its own serial for more ease of development |
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| 17:54.38 | mwester | gta02 is the solution to all our problems, but I don't have one right now. |
| 17:55.06 | mwester | So I work with what I have, and work around unreliable components such as gsmd as best as I can, and solve immediate problems. Call it a hack if you will, but I fix things. |
| 17:55.19 | *** join/#openmoko Bzek (n=SK_sj@213.24.44.184) |
| 17:55.21 | SpeedEvil | roh: any rumors of an 850Mhz run of a triband GTA02 in parallel with the first run? |
| 17:55.46 | balrog_ | mwester: why is #1003 assignet to gsmd component? |
| 17:56.04 | roh | from my perspective unifying the power-on/off 'switch' in gsmd is the right call from sean_c |
| 17:56.18 | cjb_ie | SpeedEvil: i think the last we heard was that FCC approval would take significantly longer than CE |
| 17:56.36 | Bzek | Is it available to play in GTA 3 on Neo1973? :) |
| 17:56.36 | cjb_ie | so euromoko would be a month or two ahead of amerimoko |
| 17:56.40 | balrog_ | imho the kernel should expose an identical interface for turning the modem off on all phones |
| 17:56.55 | roh | as i said, abstraction for hw is already done there and not only in the kernel, and it should run all the time. just gprs/ppp needs 'fixing' and ts07.10 mux/demux |
| 17:57.37 | mwester | balrog_: It seemed reasonable at the time, since it involved the GSM modem. But in retrospect, it should have been against the hardware as a whole, since the impact of the problem is that the device sucks the battery flat when it is supposed to be powered off. |
| 17:57.53 | roh | SpeedEvil well.. i can only say that we now can predict that its doable to build gta devices with exactly this layput, no gerber changes for triband 850/1800/1900 |
| 17:58.05 | balrog_ | mwester: it can be reassigned |
| 17:58.13 | SpeedEvil | roh: so it's just a matter of swapping a filter or something on the production run? |
| 17:58.15 | cjb_ie | hooray for bom-only changes |
| 17:58.20 | roh | hxd8 proved that (uses the same gsm layout) |
| 17:58.22 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 17:58.29 | mwester | balrog_: based on roh's reaction, I'm not sure it would change anything to reassign it. |
| 17:58.33 | *** part/#openmoko Aria_ (n=aredride@224x194.ouraynet.com) |
| 17:58.35 | roh | SpeedEvil different filter, different calibration |
| 17:58.39 | balrog_ | okay |
| 17:58.43 | SpeedEvil | Great. |
| 17:58.53 | roh | SpeedEvil do not know about different firmware, but i think thats the least of problems in that case |
| 17:59.11 | roh | we know it works, we know because we have fcc for hxd8 for 850/1800/1900 |
| 17:59.19 | SpeedEvil | So it's build one, submit to FCC, and wait? |
| 18:00.26 | mwester | I remain ready to battle this issue of shutdown; when someone proves that gsmd is worthy of being given sole rights to power-off the GSM modem then I'll shut up. Until then, we cannot entrust something as unreliable and often-changing as gsmd to do this vital task. That's my opinion, and if necessary I'll maintain an alternate image that won't flatten the battery - but that would be a shame. |
| 18:00.31 | roh | yes and no. gta02 needs to be done first. then its a management decicion what to do. |
| 18:01.04 | SpeedEvil | mwester: there is no reason you can't put echo AT@poff>/dev/foo into the shutdown script |
| 18:01.10 | roh | mwester adding more hacks will not make it more stable. only fixing bugs. |
| 18:01.37 | edistar | roh: will OM in a year still work on GTA-01 or will there be separate OM version for each decive? |
| 18:01.47 | edistar | s/decive/device |
| 18:01.50 | roh | SpeedEvil there is. you do not know if the buffers are empty. you do not know if the firmware is in sleep mode and needs to be awakened first, etc. only gsmd knows that. |
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| 18:02.10 | SpeedEvil | roh: yes - I mean as a backup case. |
| 18:02.23 | roh | edistar currently as much as possible is done portable, so i currently see no reason for differenciation there |
| 18:02.28 | mwester | roh: the reset of the modem in the script that I put in the bug report fixes all the sleep issues and the buffering is taken care of by the kernel and the script. |
| 18:02.42 | mwester | roh: what you are describing is a red herring. |
| 18:02.42 | roh | edistar we do not plan dropping all support for gta01 as soon as gta02 comes out. |
| 18:02.52 | edistar | roh: good, just asking.. |
| 18:03.29 | roh | SpeedEvil still-.. when i buy this phone after its completed the last thing i want to see is any at-command outside of gsmd or gprs/ppp stuff. |
| 18:04.03 | SpeedEvil | roh: I notice that the GSM chipset draws 30mA or so from the battery. About 4* what my cheap nokia quadband uses. Is this just a less optimised for power chipset than the nokia ones? |
| 18:04.06 | roh | we need _less_ scripts which fork less often. this device is much too slow already. |
| 18:04.15 | mwester | roh: agreed. So take it out ont he gta02 images, if that one is wired correctly. |
| 18:04.17 | SpeedEvil | roh: I quite agree for a final phone. |
| 18:04.17 | roh | SpeedEvil which firmware do you use? |
| 18:04.36 | SpeedEvil | roh: I wasn't aware there was other firmware for the GSM modem than the shipped one |
| 18:04.52 | SpeedEvil | I mean with modem on and phone shut down. (including amp powered off) |
| 18:04.53 | roh | mwester you cannot wire it with a real off switch. you can only disconnect if from mains. this chipset does not have any hardware-power-off caps. |
| 18:05.57 | mwester | If you wire it on the phone side of the PM chip, then it should power off when the PM chip powers off the phone hardware. |
| 18:06.36 | mwester | balrog_: I checked out the bug you highlighted -- I completely agree with you on all points. |
| 18:07.11 | balrog_ | mwester: :) |
| 18:07.17 | roh | well.. that only messes up the design even more. we have a switch then. but i think we should shut it down and switch power off afterwards. so everything i said still stands. |
| 18:07.31 | mwester | balrog_: which is especially interesting considering how the current discussion on gsmd and power-off is dependent upon bugs being fixed in gsmd.... |
| 18:07.39 | roh | its just a safety net, not the solution itself |
| 18:08.14 | mwester | Agreed. gsmd *SHOULD* power off the modem. The issue is not about that, the issue is about what happens if gsmd is not able to do so. |
| 18:08.35 | roh | mwester then the modem stays on. which is a bug. |
| 18:08.48 | roh | have you _ever_ taken a look at real world phones? |
| 18:09.14 | roh | every cellphone has the same problem in case firmware crashes on powerdown or shortly before. |
| 18:09.22 | mwester | The use has every right to expect that if the phone has powered off, that the GSM modem is off as well. We need to ensure that this happens, and gsmd is not able to do so reliably. Hence we need something to do this. I provided same. OM can remove that as soon as gsmd grows up. |
| 18:09.28 | roh | so making it not crash is priority. |
| 18:09.37 | mwester | Yes, but that is not happening, roh |
| 18:10.04 | roh | that IS happening. finally there is a team working on gsmd and you still nag |
| 18:10.06 | mwester | Not for lack of the community effort, I must add. |
| 18:10.30 | mwester | I'm "nagging", roh? I have a perfectly valid issue, and you call that nagging? |
| 18:10.51 | mwester | roh, you are incredibly rude. |
| 18:11.05 | roh | the user has no right to expect everything to work properly after a crash. not even power_off. same rules like for all devices are valid: if it crashes and you want a defined state, remove power, readd power, get state you want, be happy. |
| 18:11.16 | balrog_ | making a program not crash is quite trivial compared to making it work correctly |
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| 18:11.24 | roh | what the user has a right to is not to have crashes. |
| 18:11.35 | balrog_ | but with the current team that controls the svn it may take a couple of years |
| 18:11.35 | mwester | Thank you for your opinion, I shall cease wasting my time arguing this with you. I can see that you have made up your mind, and will resort to insults and rudeness when logic fails your arguments. |
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| 18:14.44 | roh | mwester i am sorry if you interpret me as rude today, that wasnt my intention. i am just stating the facts, that none of us can fix such problems since it would involve builing own gsm chipsets in the end |
| 18:15.06 | roh | so we have to work with what we have and make it the best and cleanest we can. |
| 18:15.37 | roh | regular user behaviour is 'remove battery' in case of crash. which is ok and good. also solves all problems. |
| 18:15.52 | roh | if the gsmd crashes we need to find out why. |
| 18:16.30 | edistar | roh: regular linux behaviour is restart the module/daemon.. ;) |
| 18:17.40 | balrog_ | regular linux daemons don't crash on me |
| 18:17.57 | edistar | balrog_: they do it the firmware in the gsm chip does |
| 18:18.02 | roh | edistar bad code does. |
| 18:18.11 | torpor | why does the firmware in the gsm crashing bother linux? |
| 18:18.15 | balrog_ | to be honest gsmd also doesn't crash on me recently, although it leeks tons of memory and sometimes talks to the modem nonsense |
| 18:18.20 | edistar | roh: ok, that way too ;) |
| 18:18.34 | torpor | is gsm so thorny? |
| 18:18.36 | edistar | torpor: it doesn't sry, my mistake |
| 18:18.36 | roh | torpor we are talking about gsmd, not the firmware crashing |
| 18:18.53 | torpor | gsmd is crappy? i haven't noticed. |
| 18:19.11 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=dr@vnsecurity.net) |
| 18:19.17 | balrog_ | torpor: yes it is :) |
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| 18:20.02 | *** part/#openmoko Bzek (n=SK_sj@213.24.44.184) |
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| 18:22.15 | torpor | ermm .. is there an alternative for buildhost.automated.it for stuff, or should i just get over it? |
| 18:22.21 | roh | mwester/balrog: i hope you now know what the way i imagine to solve that mess would be right and that our engineers like sean_c are on it. |
| 18:25.20 | edistar | torpor: scaredycat. |
| 18:25.53 | torpor | edistar: maybe its time i set up my own feed then. ;) |
| 18:26.07 | balrog_ | roh: this somehow doesn't raise my hopes :) |
| 18:26.32 | roh | hopes on proper working gsmd you mean? |
| 18:26.50 | balrog_ | roh: yes, on anything good coming out of the official gsmd svn |
| 18:27.39 | roh | you know sean_c is our gsm firmware guy? |
| 18:27.52 | edistar | torpor: sounds good |
| 18:28.07 | balrog_ | i really hope some other distro forks it and starts maintaining like a normal opensource project and then maybe the fork is accepted as official like it was with gcc |
| 18:28.19 | edistar | torpor: where do you get the webspace/server from? |
| 18:28.58 | mmontour | Could gsmd have a "--cleanup" mode where it would reset the modem to a known state, power it off, then exit cleanly? This could be called from shutdown scripts to make sure things were off even gsmd had crashed before. |
| 18:29.13 | roh | what is is you want to see? adding more hacks? |
| 18:29.48 | LaF0rge | mmontour: that's a bit of a weird function for a daemon program, don't you think? |
| 18:30.51 | cjb_ie | gpsd has similar |
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| 18:31.02 | mmontour | I don't think it's too big of a stretch, if gsmd in its normal daemon role is responsible for all control of the GSM hardware |
| 18:31.24 | balrog_ | roh: no, perhaps cleaning up whatever mess the recent commits by tick introduced (or perhaps revertin gall of it) and applying in order incorporating the comments from community like "here's, there is a leak" or "this approach is completely" wrong which they routinely ignore |
| 18:31.37 | mmontour | BTW, my $0.02 is that gsmd should have full control of the GSM modem, including power and serial-port 'stty' stuff. |
| 18:32.21 | balrog_ | and perhaps assigning someone who knows how to code C to a project that is in C |
| 18:32.36 | thomasg | can anyone tell me how it works, that the windows in openmoko/matchbox become smaller if the vkbd is opened? is this a special matchbox feature, or is it a NetWM-function? |
| 18:34.01 | *** join/#openmoko simon_ (n=simon@w208.wist.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 18:34.48 | roh | balrog_ i cannot comment on his code right now. have not read it yet. too much other stuff happening. but i agree that gsmd need to work properly, not crash, not leak for being 'fixed' |
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| 18:36.35 | balrog_ | roh: there are constantly cases where a patch is submitted by one of the internal openmoko hackers and people on the list comment pointing out obvious errors or even supplying a corrected patch, and the original patch still being committed with no comentary |
| 18:37.16 | roh | mwester: balrogg: but be assurd that i take both of your concern very seriusly and share some of them. |
| 18:37.38 | balrog_ | (while code that has been tested and reviewed by community is dropped with no discussion also) |
| 18:37.53 | tuukkah | i think one important point on mwester's side is that the current issues have hindered the community |
| 18:38.29 | tuukkah | a bug should be worked around if it stops people from contributing |
| 18:39.15 | tuukkah | and when a bug is known, what bad is a simple workaround until the bug eventually gets fixed? |
| 18:40.26 | CoreDump | guys, if you are so pissed at gsmd's current state just fork the damn thing, build your own images and be done with it |
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| 18:41.18 | balrog_ | CoreDump: the issue with forks is that it's good when the various hackers use the same repository, a central one, that's what cvs or svn are invented for |
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| 18:41.54 | CoreDump | huh? since when do true forks use identical repos? |
| 18:42.23 | tuukkah | i don't want to build an openmoko fork |
| 18:42.51 | balrog_ | CoreDump: i'm not saying identical repos, but if various people work on a project they need means for cooperation, cvs was invented for that |
| 18:43.20 | CoreDump | I don't get it. Then use your own repo for your fork -> problem solved |
| 18:44.22 | mwester-n | I "nag" here in hope of inspiring action, rather than a fork. A fork would be a last resort IMO |
| 18:44.24 | balrog_ | CoreDump: what part you don't get? i use my repo for my fork, and person X also writes code in the same project, if they use a seaprate repo they will waste time fixing the same bugs |
| 18:45.29 | *** part/#openmoko dinamich (n=damjan@ub141-7.static.adsl.volja.net) |
| 18:45.31 | borg_ | cant we just put gsmd in a git or hg repository? |
| 18:45.43 | borg_ | they are more made for forking things and put together later on |
| 18:45.45 | CoreDump | balrog-kun: ....that is the point of a fork, isn't it? If your stuff is better than the original, people are going to use your fork (and repo). If not...well one less fork |
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| 18:46.13 | roh | i think if someone would just pop up with a completely rewritten and working gsmd, which has all neccessary features and abstractions as well as the right license, i would be the last to stand in the war of throwing away the gsmd we have |
| 18:46.53 | tuukkah | roh, i don't think there's a public spec for gsmd, or is there? |
| 18:47.43 | balrog_ | CoreDump: gsmd still needs a couple of months work to be usable, it won't be done by one person, and indeed several people are happy to work on it, but they have no means to cooperate |
| 18:48.24 | CoreDump | set up a repo, contact these persons and try to get them to cooperate |
| 18:48.30 | balrog_ | CoreDump: they need a common repository with commit access to it, and if a big enough projects starts such a repository then it's very likely that people will switch to it, but not if an individual sets it up |
| 18:48.38 | roh | tuukkah: not really. but from what i hear the people who care know about everything they need already. |
| 18:49.30 | tuukkah | roh, i don't know about everything :-( |
| 18:49.48 | mwester-n | roh you know thats not true. om has the gsm proprietary docs |
| 18:50.30 | balrog_ | with the official svn it seems there is no problem because it looks to me like no persona that understands gsmd code has commit access to it so it won't win with any 3rd party fork, but the issue is that the 3rd party forks shouldn't compete against each other |
| 18:50.36 | roh | mwester yes, but you know that you should not need them for 99% of gsmd |
| 18:50.38 | balrog_ | *person |
| 18:51.02 | roh | only for vendor specific stuff in some plugins (and then its true for htc and othe rplugins as well |
| 18:51.41 | mwester-n | 1% is the magic that is necessary |
| 18:52.13 | roh | mwester-n jap. and thats already in the gsmd we have. or are you missing any command still? |
| 18:52.40 | tuukkah | mwester-n, based on the differing views, wouldn't you also consider it a problem to come up with something considered "proper"? |
| 18:52.52 | mwester-n | i don't know what i don't know. |
| 18:52.52 | matthew_ | does GSMD handle SMS/ |
| 18:53.07 | gamin | matthew_: yes |
| 18:53.28 | roh | i need to go out and find some food now, will be back later. i do not want to kill this conversation, if you wish we can continue later. |
| 18:53.46 | balrog_ | you can build a 100% functional phone with what is currently known publically |
| 18:55.57 | gamin | is special functionality like *123# for getting my remaining minutes already possible with the gsmd? |
| 18:56.09 | balrog_ | gamin: yes |
| 18:57.36 | LarstiQ | balrog_: using a centralised vcs really sounds like the wrong approach here |
| 18:57.59 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 18:58.02 | LarstiQ | roh: imo, not sucking power is way more important right now than a layering violation |
| 18:58.19 | borg_ | why dont we use git for gsmd, so that people cann pull from each other? |
| 18:58.22 | dottedmag | gsmd fork with tricky license like 'you can't use our patches until you fire this and that person or at least forbid them from writing code' would be interesting solution. Resulting binaries won't be redistributable due to GPL, but it is possible to write script for one-step building them. |
| 18:58.35 | pH5 | borg_: folks.o-hand.com/andrew/gsmd.git/ |
| 18:58.45 | LarstiQ | dottedmag: eh, that doesn't sound right |
| 18:58.59 | borg_ | o_O |
| 18:59.03 | borg_ | it is in git? |
| 18:59.05 | pH5 | nobody stops you from setting up your git repo and point out interesting patches on the gsmd-devel list |
| 18:59.08 | borg_ | where is the problem then? |
| 18:59.08 | dottedmag | LarstiQ: this is the crude hack for the situation when meritocracy does not apply. |
| 18:59.11 | balrog_ | LarstiQ: i didn't use the word centralised, i'm saying using *one* repo |
| 18:59.42 | LarstiQ | balrog_: ehm, how is that _not_ centralised? |
| 19:00.08 | mjr | dottedmag, blergh |
| 19:00.10 | balrog_ | LarstiQ: well, it is, but centralised is a requirement for cooperating, isn't it? |
| 19:00.16 | LarstiQ | balrog_: no it isn't |
| 19:00.32 | balrog_ | borg_: the problem is that nobody will base their patches on this git tree, people will still base patches on the svn and never have them applied |
| 19:00.58 | LarstiQ | balrog_: cooperation requires communication, if things flow in a mesh like way that is fine |
| 19:01.16 | LarstiQ | balrog_: but having one central repo where no one has access to is counter productive |
| 19:02.04 | balrog_ | LarstiQ: the idea behind using a repo is that one person can commit with a single command, like "commit" and the other people can do a "update" and immediately start working on top of the code written by other people, without rediffing by hand |
| 19:02.36 | balrog_ | LarstiQ: obviously everyone in the mesh needs commit rights |
| 19:02.42 | dottedmag | balrog_: bzr have this feature, and still distributed. |
| 19:02.54 | balrog_ | dottedmag: git also |
| 19:02.59 | dottedmag | yep |
| 19:03.04 | LarstiQ | balrog_: they can to their own branches, and others can just merge their work when they want to |
| 19:03.07 | balrog_ | i'm happy to give access to folks.o-hand.com/andrew/gsmd.git/ to anyone |
| 19:03.13 | LarstiQ | balrog_: no need to rediff by hand |
| 19:03.30 | balrog_ | (who can code) |
| 19:03.34 | pH5 | balrog_: :) |
| 19:03.35 | LarstiQ | balrog_: heh :) |
| 19:04.10 | balrog_ | LarstiQ: for this they need to know about each other's trees |
| 19:04.18 | LarstiQ | balrog_: right, communication |
| 19:05.13 | balrog_ | and it's much easier to do if there's one tree, for example because .git allows you to have a single "origin" tree to/from which it pushes/pulls on commit/update |
| 19:05.22 | LarstiQ | balrog_: I do agree you're likely to get one "blessed" repo people pull from |
| 19:05.56 | LarstiQ | but which one that is fluctuates |
| 19:06.36 | *** join/#openmoko Ophelia (n=Ophelia@pD9EAAE61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:06.42 | borg_ | so lets promote this repo, it doesnt sound that complicated if there is so much frustration with the persons in charge of the openmoko inc. svn |
| 19:07.11 | borg_ | sounds much better to fork gsmd then to fork the whole project :) |
| 19:08.16 | nbd | the nice thing about git is that it works well together with svn |
| 19:08.22 | *** join/#openmoko johan_ (n=johan@80.174.138.157.dyn.user.ono.com) |
| 19:08.23 | nbd | i mean in a bidirectional way |
| 19:08.54 | haakeyar | Sorry if this is sort of noobish, but how serious are the problems with gsmd? Are they going to be sorted out by the time GTA02 becomes available? |
| 19:09.13 | *** join/#openmoko clami (n=clami@brsg-4db2d80f.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 19:09.39 | haakeyar | (Or does my question violate the "don't ask about GTA02?) |
| 19:09.43 | tuukkah | haakeyar, depends when the time is =) |
| 19:10.20 | tuukkah | gsm and power management issues don't seem to be trivial at least |
| 19:10.55 | tuukkah | but we just get our act together, put the needed work in them and we'll be ready in no time :-) |
| 19:11.16 | matthew_ | i've been questioning power management issues since june |
| 19:11.21 | matthew_ | people didn't think them to be important at the time |
| 19:11.43 | tuukkah | matthew_, must depend on people |
| 19:12.07 | *** join/#openmoko jpozlovsky (n=jindra@rb5cc115.net.upc.cz) |
| 19:12.55 | matthew_ | power management and gsmd go together though |
| 19:13.26 | matthew_ | or any daemon, for that matter |
| 19:15.09 | ruxpin | why is gsmd so problematic? |
| 19:15.43 | tuukkah | ruxpin, it's made from scratch |
| 19:16.19 | balrog_ | ruxpin: because it's crucial for a phone and it seems to be currently regressing instead of progressing |
| 19:16.25 | borg_ | there are lots of different opinions on how it should look like |
| 19:17.16 | tuukkah | that's why i was talking of having a public spec |
| 19:17.46 | tuukkah | someone might like to create one, perhaps in the lines of http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Power_management_requirements |
| 19:18.24 | tuukkah | then extract the current features from gsmd source code and see if they fit |
| 19:18.32 | borg_ | tuukkah: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Gsmd/document |
| 19:18.38 | borg_ | i guess one could just extend this |
| 19:18.57 | tuukkah | "Gsmd document" =) |
| 19:20.44 | tuukkah | indeed, that's a start |
| 19:22.11 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (n=dottedma@90.189.165.244) |
| 19:23.13 | tuukkah | although, without requirements it can't really be filled in |
| 19:24.07 | *** join/#openmoko Ryback_ (n=ulisses@200.184.118.132) |
| 19:24.10 | tuukkah | what should happen if two apps try to place a call at the same time? how should cancelling a call work? etc. |
| 19:25.02 | *** join/#openmoko cibomahto (n=metsmatt@ip84.coronado-crossing.phx.ygnition.net) |
| 19:25.10 | tuukkah | can i have an app that steals incoming calls during the times i'm sleeping? |
| 19:25.25 | SpeedEvil | tuukkah: yes |
| 19:25.32 | SpeedEvil | tuukkah: at least - the hardware permits it |
| 19:25.38 | *** join/#openmoko franswa (n=franswaw@161.22-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 19:25.48 | balrog_ | many of these requirements are already dictated by the hardware and gsm specs |
| 19:25.53 | SpeedEvil | tuukkah: bluetooth heartrate monitor would probably work OK for a sleep-detector |
| 19:27.14 | *** join/#openmoko ossman (n=drzeus@gateway.drzeus.cx) |
| 19:27.42 | tuukkah | i don't see what hardware has to do with these |
| 19:29.01 | balrog_ | for example if the hardware doesn't allow two calls from two different apps at the same time then you know that gsmd can't provide that to its client apps |
| 19:29.13 | tuukkah | wrt gsmd requirements, i see the importance in making the abstractions something that meets the requirements we're going to have |
| 19:29.45 | borg_ | balrog_: yes, but what should gsmd do in such a situation? return an error, just do nothing, explode, ...? |
| 19:29.46 | tuukkah | balrog_, i know the hardware doesn't allow two calls. the point is, *what* should happen? |
| 19:30.01 | borg_ | it would be nice to have a paper that describes all those things |
| 19:30.17 | balrog_ | tuukkah: i'm not sure that it doesn't... |
| 19:30.24 | borg_ | and it would be much easier for people to participate then |
| 19:31.16 | *** join/#openmoko HellDragon (i=jd@unaffiliated/helldragon) |
| 19:31.31 | tuukkah | if my script (app b) places a call, will gsmd relay the info to dialer (app a) and will dialer provide a gui to cancel this call? |
| 19:32.08 | abraxa_ | tuukkah: If the d-bus bindings will be designed properly then yes |
| 19:32.15 | balrog_ | tuukkah: yeah, many decisions should be specified ahead |
| 19:32.42 | tuukkah | abraxa_, "properly" is dependent on the requirements and design we decide on |
| 19:33.06 | balrog_ | and i'd be happy if LaF0rge had put up a document detailing it because he had many good ideas while he worked on the project and his ideas brought gsmd to be able to do anything at all |
| 19:33.39 | tuukkah | balrog_, he still might... |
| 19:33.47 | balrog_ | unfortunately he left it and the currently controlling team dosn't know what it is that they want |
| 19:34.10 | *** join/#openmoko miip_ (n=miip@p54A564E2.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:34.50 | balrog_ | and especially doesn't seem to be able to come up with any new idea, while gsmd still needs some new ideas in a couple of areas because it's not only bugfixes that are left to do |
| 19:36.15 | tuukkah | if i've learned something about designing software it's that there is no one right way to implement product x, or command y, or module z. it all depends on the requirements of the context |
| 19:37.35 | tuukkah | balrog_, to me this would seem like a good time to work on this with the community |
| 19:40.37 | *** join/#openmoko k-s[WORK] (n=gustavo@200.184.118.132) |
| 19:42.00 | *** join/#openmoko franswaaw (n=franswaw@161.22-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 19:43.18 | *** join/#openmoko bedboi (n=bedboi@nsc.ciup.fr) |
| 19:43.20 | bedboi | hi there |
| 19:44.03 | matthew_ | this is why i work solo ;) |
| 19:44.06 | bedboi | why not? |
| 19:45.54 | *** join/#openmoko edistar (n=edistar@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 19:46.00 | borg_ | so, is there someone beside of LaF0rge who is able to make some sort of gsmd specification which describes in detail how the workflow of gsmd should look like? |
| 19:46.46 | borg_ | i guess there would be a lot of people who would help implementing gsmd, if they only whould know what has to be done... |
| 19:46.50 | balrog_ | this wouldn't be that much of a problem if they had a really skilled crew assigned to the project internally, even a one person crew composed of a person like one of the core leaders, but that isn't the case |
| 19:48.00 | edistar | can't the community help somehow? |
| 19:48.35 | balrog_ | edistar: yes, community can solve perhaps most of the gsmd problems if they are allowed to |
| 19:49.13 | edistar | balrog_: and what are the problems, why aren't they allowed to? |
| 19:49.43 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__ (i=disguy__@gateway/tor/x-46b22cbedb8528b6) |
| 19:50.19 | matthew_ | mwester-laptop: so do I, which is why i'm not working on a project that complex ;) |
| 19:50.53 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@rn083002.morris.umn.edu) |
| 19:51.04 | *** join/#openmoko edistar (n=edistar@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 19:51.04 | *** join/#openmoko TAsn-ghost (n=TAsn@82.166.228.67) |
| 19:51.10 | edistar | sry, didn't catch that |
| 19:52.23 | balrog_ | edistar: see list/bugzilla for details |
| 19:53.34 | edistar | ok |
| 19:56.10 | tuukkah | edistar, integrating a community into a corporate project isn't trivial |
| 19:58.08 | *** join/#openmoko ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 19:58.39 | *** join/#openmoko timtux (n=tim@hd5e25b44.gavlegardarna.gavle.to) |
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| 20:03.28 | *** join/#openmoko twistx (n=no@64.30.190.171) |
| 20:11.40 | *** join/#openmoko NaPs (n=Unknown@tecknet.org) |
| 20:14.16 | *** join/#openmoko thresh (n=popa3d@unaffiliated/thresh) |
| 20:16.23 | *** join/#openmoko cdm (n=cdm@pool-71-116-92-149.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 20:22.50 | *** join/#openmoko abraxa_ (n=abraxa@pD95FCCA0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
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| 20:24.28 | *** join/#openmoko daniel_bergamini (n=danieber@72-173-28-88.cust.wildblue.net) |
| 20:26.03 | matthew_ | it's the mirrors |
| 20:27.59 | mwester-n | they make everything look bigger. |
| 20:32.15 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@mne69-9-88-163-116-163.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 20:37.56 | anrp | not necessarily, a concave mirror makes things look smaller up to a certain point :o |
| 20:38.22 | anrp | or convex? .. hmm |
| 20:42.41 | borg_ | anrp: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Spiegel.jpg street mirrors are convex, they are probably so to make things bigger |
| 20:42.50 | borg_ | so a concave mirror will make things smaller |
| 20:42.54 | borg_ | i guess ;) |
| 20:43.06 | cjb_ie | nah, street mirrors cover a very wide area |
| 20:43.09 | cjb_ie | and make things smaller |
| 20:43.19 | cjb_ie | shaving mirrors are concave, to magnify |
| 20:43.22 | borg_ | ah ok |
| 20:43.31 | borg_ | so it is the other way around? :) |
| 20:43.41 | cjb_ie | yup |
| 20:44.15 | cjb_ie | but of course with concave mirrors everything changes when you pass the focal point |
| 20:44.34 | anrp | or you could skip the analog step entirely and use software processing! |
| 20:45.08 | *** join/#openmoko cdm (n=cdm@pool-71-116-92-149.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 20:48.18 | matthew_ | the key to fixing gsmd problems: the mirrors |
| 20:51.41 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@c-98-199-135-173.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 20:58.48 | *** join/#openmoko CVirus (n=GoD@82.201.174.175) |
| 21:01.07 | mmp | hmm, is it usual that flashing image in qemu-neo1973 takes much more than two minutes? |
| 21:01.16 | mmp | on amd64 |
| 21:01.28 | edistar | mmp: do you get an erro? |
| 21:01.30 | edistar | error? |
| 21:01.40 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@213.155.227.229) |
| 21:01.54 | mmp | edistar: only timeout |
| 21:02.06 | mmp | and 100% cpu load when doing something |
| 21:02.12 | edistar | mmp: I get that too, but not only athlon64 I think |
| 21:02.19 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 21:03.23 | mmp | well, I have no idea now long does it take to flash whole distribution under emulator:) |
| 21:03.51 | edistar | timeout means error |
| 21:04.33 | mmp | yes, but the error exactly is: U-boot failed to finish writing in 240 seconds, giving up. |
| 21:04.46 | mmp | so it looks like just it doesn't manage it in reasonable time |
| 21:04.47 | edistar | mmp: yes |
| 21:05.13 | mmp | I gave it 2400 seconds now, so I hope it will be enough... |
| 21:05.58 | edistar | mmp: tell me if that solves it... would be great, but I suspect it won't |
| 21:06.04 | *** part/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 21:07.53 | *** join/#openmoko amir (n=Miranda@gentoo/developer/amir) |
| 21:10.41 | mmp | hmm, u-boot really could write flashing progress :) |
| 21:11.06 | balrog_ | it does |
| 21:11.25 | balrog_ | if it doesn't then something is wrong |
| 21:11.49 | mmp | balrog-kun: hmm, even in flashing script for qemu-neo1973 ? |
| 21:11.54 | balrog_ | unless you're flashing remotely through dfu-util (but then dfu-util shows progress) |
| 21:12.02 | balrog_ | mmp: yes |
| 21:12.27 | mmp | I'm using openmoko/upload.sh |
| 21:12.34 | mmp | ech, flash.sh rather :) |
| 21:12.47 | balrog_ | mmp: does u-boot print *anything*? |
| 21:12.51 | mmp | hmm, just now I noticed: openmoko/flash.sh: line 88: 17632 Ukončené ( sleep $2; kill $pid; sleep 1; kill -KILL $pid ) |
| 21:13.05 | mmp | yes, wait a while |
| 21:14.01 | mmp | http://www.pastebin.ca/781405 |
| 21:14.11 | *** join/#openmoko alex88ita (n=alex@adsl-89-103.37-151.net24.it) |
| 21:14.26 | mmp | that 'Ukoncene' stands either for Terminated or Quit, I'm not sure now :) |
| 21:15.04 | alex88ita | hello |
| 21:15.29 | alex88ita | guys, i have kind of a doubt |
| 21:15.43 | balrog_ | mmp: is it reproducible? |
| 21:15.43 | CVirus | When do you guys think the GTA02 will be available to buy ? |
| 21:15.46 | mmp | balrog-kun: maybe that 'kill' should not be there |
| 21:15.54 | mmp | balrog-kun: from three attempts, three failures |
| 21:15.58 | alex88ita | i'm intrested in getting a gta01, it is supposed to be 300USD |
| 21:16.02 | balrog_ | mmp: i.e. everytime the output is the same? |
| 21:16.04 | alex88ita | how much will the GTA02 be? |
| 21:16.13 | CVirus | alex88ita: 450$ |
| 21:16.13 | mmp | balrog-kun: yes, it looks like |
| 21:16.36 | balrog_ | mmp: it looks like qemu isn't even running |
| 21:16.38 | alex88ita | how much is the iphone? |
| 21:16.53 | cjb_ie | don't bother asking, just bend over |
| 21:17.41 | alex88ita | thanks cjb_ie |
| 21:17.42 | mmp | balrog-kun: I wonder whether qemu wasn't killed by that command above... |
| 21:17.42 | balrog_ | mmp: can you try changing "-clock unix" to "-clock dynticks" in openmoko/env ? |
| 21:17.42 | mmp | balrog-kun: but qemu is running |
| 21:17.42 | CM | cjb_ie: hehe |
| 21:17.42 | cjb_ie | similar money, plus a contract of 18 months in the UK |
| 21:17.42 | mmp | it takes at least 100% of CPU time now:) |
| 21:17.46 | alex88ita | uhm |
| 21:17.58 | balrog_ | mmp: for me everything is ok with -clock unix, and works everytime |
| 21:18.11 | alex88ita | cool |
| 21:18.21 | balrog_ | you can also try "-clock hpet" or "-clock rtc" if that doesn't help |
| 21:18.29 | mmp | balrog_: qemu is compiled with gcc-3.4.6, running on amd64 |
| 21:18.29 | CM | alex88ita: GTA02 will be out soon, and I'm sure it will be worth the higher price to have wifi, faster cpu, gpu, more flash and accelerometers :) |
| 21:18.33 | alex88ita | neo1973 would have lots of customers if it would cost 100 usd less |
| 21:18.42 | balrog_ | i will brb |
| 21:19.02 | mmp | balrog_: it did not even finish in 20minutes, so I guess time is not the issue here... |
| 21:19.03 | alex88ita | cool CM |
| 21:19.48 | CM | alex88ita: The reason it doesn't cost 100 USD is that it doesn't come with any long contract |
| 21:20.12 | alex88ita | i think i'll be getting one as soon as they arrive in europe |
| 21:20.23 | mmp | balrog_: hmm, neo poweroff is called from some weird reason... |
| 21:20.24 | CM | Me too, even if I have a GTA01 ;) |
| 21:20.32 | alex88ita | sell it lol :P |
| 21:20.40 | alex88ita | 2 days before gta02 comes out |
| 21:20.51 | CM | Hehe.. Na, I'll keep it around. :) |
| 21:21.12 | alex88ita | eheh |
| 21:21.24 | alex88ita | i think i'm getting it mainly for touch-screen and wifi |
| 21:21.38 | alex88ita | i need a wifi connection while i'm at uni |
| 21:22.09 | alex88ita | do you guys also follow the 3ePc project from Asus |
| 21:22.26 | alex88ita | ? |
| 21:22.30 | CM | A bit, I follow everything ;) |
| 21:22.47 | alex88ita | do u like it |
| 21:23.16 | mjr | It seems nice. I think I'll skip the first gen though, as I'm getting one of them OLPCs ;) |
| 21:23.31 | CM | I think it seems really nice, but the screen looks a bit small, and I'd like a larger disk too |
| 21:23.34 | mjr | the eep could use bt though |
| 21:23.42 | CM | mjr: For sure, the XO is cooler :) |
| 21:23.46 | CVirus | When do you guys think the GTA02 will be available to buy ? |
| 21:23.54 | CM | CVirus: Still no news |
| 21:24.04 | CM | CVirus: So december is starting to look unlikely.. |
| 21:24.09 | CVirus | :-( |
| 21:24.10 | mjr | CM, yeah well, I pretty much figure the a large SD card to accompany both the XO and the eep |
| 21:24.11 | alex88ita | mjr u getting a olpc? |
| 21:24.23 | alex88ita | i thought they were only for third-world countries |
| 21:24.27 | CVirus | CM: when do you personally expect ? |
| 21:24.31 | mjr | http://xogiving.org |
| 21:24.36 | mjr | CVirus, see topic |
| 21:24.57 | CVirus | mjr: I'm asking for a personal opinion that's all :-) |
| 21:25.13 | CM | CVirus: From GTA01 being manufactured until the store opened was about 3 weeks, and another 10 days before I got mine |
| 21:25.39 | balrog_ | mmp: power-off is called by the script when it finishes flashing to stop qemu and start flashing the next file |
| 21:25.40 | CVirus | CM: when did GTA02 started being manufactured ? |
| 21:25.40 | CM | Now they have the store already, but I guess they will do it the same way, ship them to the US and then distribute from there. |
| 21:25.50 | rwhitby | I haven't seen any reports of P0 GTA02 yet, so there is no chance that P1 GTA02 will happen in December. |
| 21:26.00 | CM | CVirus: I don't think it has yet |
| 21:26.07 | mjr | there have been allusions to GTA02 EU shipping center |
| 21:26.35 | CM | rwhitby: The've had the pre-series versions for a bit more than 2 weeks, but that's all I've heard |
| 21:26.52 | alex88ita | neo1973 gui rocks btw |
| 21:26.55 | CM | mjr: Even for P0? |
| 21:26.57 | CM | I hope so.. |
| 21:27.00 | rwhitby | CM: yeah, that's P -1, not P0. |
| 21:27.05 | CM | Yes |
| 21:27.07 | mmp | balrog_: aha... well, I'm looking on it |
| 21:27.26 | CM | alex88ita: If you try it in qemu it's sloooow.. But works ok on the actual phone |
| 21:27.27 | alex88ita | if they manage to get a gps module they'll sell lots of these toys here in europe :P |
| 21:27.28 | *** join/#openmoko balrog-kun (i=balrog@27-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl) |
| 21:27.35 | mjr | CM, P0 *shrug* |
| 21:27.42 | alex88ita | eheh |
| 21:27.47 | mjr | alex88ita, it has gps |
| 21:27.57 | alex88ita | already? |
| 21:28.04 | mjr | what, of course |
| 21:28.09 | alex88ita | wtf lol |
| 21:28.14 | borg_ | :) |
| 21:28.17 | alex88ita | they'll sell tons of these here |
| 21:28.19 | rwhitby | just no public software to drive it ... |
| 21:28.31 | alex88ita | uhm |
| 21:28.31 | CM | yet |
| 21:28.31 | rwhitby | (the proprietary gps chip that is) |
| 21:28.38 | alex88ita | that's enough |
| 21:28.40 | alex88ita | lol |
| 21:28.41 | mmp | balrog_: looks like when qemu is started second time, script isn't correctly talking to uboot... |
| 21:28.52 | borg_ | i think it would be really nice if the would sell some maps which can be used with navid in their shop too |
| 21:28.55 | rwhitby | CM: lawyers are involved - "yet" can mean years. |
| 21:29.00 | borg_ | s/the/they/ |
| 21:29.31 | cjb_ie | and in the meantime, let's keep our fingers crossed for openstreetmap... ;-) |
| 21:29.42 | alex88ita | eheh |
| 21:29.46 | alex88ita | that's a good project also |
| 21:29.51 | rwhitby | What I can't understand is that in this day of email, Sean & Co. are trying and failing to reach people by telephone, and that is the reason why things are being held up ... |
| 21:29.57 | CM | rwhitby: Yes, sadly.. |
| 21:29.59 | mjr | no fingers, let's improve openstreetmap in our neighbourhoods |
| 21:30.11 | balrog-kun | mmp: same with dynticks? |
| 21:30.19 | cjb_ie | mapping party in dublin next weekend if anyone wants to come ;-) |
| 21:30.22 | mmp | no, have not tried dynticks yet, going to try |
| 21:30.31 | alex88ita | what is the feature of neo1973 u guys prefer |
| 21:30.38 | mjr | rwhitby, a phonecall is a better kick for reluctant to answer types than e-mail... |
| 21:31.18 | rwhitby | mjr: true, but if email's not working, then it's a power relationship where OpenMoko has no clout to get anything done. |
| 21:31.37 | rwhitby | (i.e. they are too small fry for the vendor to even bother answering an email) |
| 21:31.44 | mjr | it does seem they have a bit of that problem |
| 21:31.45 | mmp | balrog-kun: still the same, no u-boot prompt, just waits for timeout |
| 21:32.00 | balrog-kun | mmp: weird |
| 21:32.02 | CM | rwhitby: <mwester> Q: What do you call 200 lawyers at the bottom of Lake Michigan? A: A good start |
| 21:32.04 | balrog-kun | mmp: how about rtc? |
| 21:32.08 | balrog-kun | -clock rtc |
| 21:32.11 | rwhitby | 2 thousand devices is a "sample order" for these vendors. It's in the noise. |
| 21:32.16 | mmp | balrog-kun: hmm, do you think it's race condition in qemu? |
| 21:32.25 | balrog-kun | mmp: no idea |
| 21:32.33 | balrog-kun | mmp: it never happens to me |
| 21:34.04 | mmp | again doesn't boot the third time... |
| 21:34.27 | mmp | I wonder whetner resulting image doesn't have u-boot corrupted somehow (don't ask me how could that be possible, just guessing:) |
| 21:35.07 | balrog-kun | mmp: in the piece you pasted, it's running at least one time |
| 21:35.39 | mmp | I guess even three times -- it programs boot splash and some other things.. |
| 21:35.43 | alex88ita | guys, where can i get a qemu image of openmoko |
| 21:35.55 | alex88ita | ? |
| 21:36.05 | rwhitby | alex88ita: MokoMakefile, "make qemu" |
| 21:36.54 | zash | 22:16:40 < traedet> Piotten, har jag fått allt om bakfoten men visst har du illrar? |
| 21:37.02 | zash | gah |
| 21:37.20 | alex88ita | thanks rwhitby i'll try |
| 21:37.27 | mmp | balrog-kun: should the script run qemu-system-arm from system, or qemu-img from qemu-neo1973 ? |
| 21:37.28 | zash | touchpads and random middlecklicks |
| 21:41.14 | mmp | but it still doesn't seem to work |
| 21:42.04 | balrog-kun | mmp: qemu-system-arm three times |
| 21:42.07 | alex88ita | its downloading now :D |
| 21:42.08 | balrog-kun | and qemu-img once |
| 21:42.20 | alex88ita | 140mbz :O |
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| 21:54.22 | alex88ita | uhm i get an error |
| 21:54.40 | alex88ita | openmoko/flash.sh: line 77: /home/alex/qemu-neo1973/arm-softmmu/qemu-system-arm: No such file or directory |
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| 21:55.07 | alex88ita | i'm getting all the stuff from https://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973 |
| 21:55.25 | Ghiottone | hi all |
| 21:55.29 | balrog-kun | did you run "make"? |
| 21:55.47 | alex88ita | ehm |
| 21:55.59 | alex88ita | i forgot |
| 21:56.26 | alex88ita | i'm such a noob sometimes |
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| 22:02.37 | alex88ita | pfff i get a timeout error |
| 22:03.07 | alex88ita | it locks up at ' Please wait, programming the NAND flash...' for 2 minutes and then it leaves |
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| 22:04.37 | alex88ita | "U-boot failed to finish writing in 120 seconds, giving up." |
| 22:06.07 | alex88ita | any idea, guys? |
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| 22:08.40 | Vegar | alex88ita: get the latest flash.sh |
| 22:08.57 | cjb_ie | U-boot failed to resurface? :-) |
| 22:09.00 | CM | balrog-kun: I've been unable to reproduce that too |
| 22:09.14 | alex88ita | i've got the latest flash.sh |
| 22:09.23 | mmp | balrog-kun: uhm, looks like the third time qemu even doesn't start... |
| 22:09.38 | alex88ita | pfff |
| 22:09.38 | mmp | alex88ita: the same at me:) |
| 22:09.43 | alex88ita | maybe is the sdl? |
| 22:09.43 | mmp | balrog-kun: do you need ssh access? |
| 22:09.50 | mmp | balrog-kun: I could provide some |
| 22:10.09 | mmp | balrog-kun: and so far I know that the last time, qemu gets started, but doesn't boot to uboot |
| 22:10.44 | balrog-kun | mmp: hmm, ssh access would be cool |
| 22:11.00 | balrog-kun | alex88ita: it's possible, there have been problems with sdl befoe that looked like qemu problems |
| 22:11.16 | alex88ita | ok let's see if i can get those libZ |
| 22:11.17 | mmp | balrog-kun: on my way, I just need to re-configure network and create you proper environment :) |
| 22:11.54 | balrog-kun | cool :) |
| 22:12.32 | Vegar | what's the phonesim thing flash.sh mentions? |
| 22:12.54 | balrog-kun | Vegar: modem emulator with a nice gui |
| 22:13.01 | Vegar | nice |
| 22:13.32 | alex88ita | lol |
| 22:13.43 | balrog-kun | http://unadventure.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/screen-qtopia-qvfb.png <-- the gui |
| 22:14.07 | haakeyar | About the qemu problems: |
| 22:14.13 | Vegar | nice |
| 22:14.22 | haakeyar | I've had the same problems too, on a Fedora 7 machine (amd athlon or whatever it's called, I'm not a processor guy), while it worked on Ubuntu 7.04 on another computer |
| 22:14.25 | Vegar | so it emulates the gsm modem? |
| 22:14.51 | haakeyar | (dual processor intel something) |
| 22:14.55 | alex88ita | haakeyar, i've followed a ubuntu tutorial |
| 22:15.02 | alex88ita | for installing the emulator |
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| 22:15.28 | alex88ita | i'm on debian sid |
| 22:15.52 | alex88ita | i've checked for sdl libraries and these are the latest avaible |
| 22:15.56 | alex88ita | 1.2..... |
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| 22:17.52 | haakeyar | alex88ita, yes, I don't know what the problem is, but maybe you could try from a livecd with ubuntu 7.04? Ubuntu 7.04 worked fine with me, so if it doesn't with you, it's probably hardware related. |
| 22:18.18 | alex88ita | yeah sure i got a ubuntu 7.04 live cd |
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| 22:18.22 | alex88ita | i'll try |
| 22:18.33 | alex88ita | but i will try tomorrow |
| 22:18.37 | alex88ita | it's quite late now :) |
| 22:18.43 | alex88ita | 11.20 pm |
| 22:19.03 | haakeyar | Oh, you are in the same time zone as me. :) |
| 22:19.37 | alex88ita | where r u from |
| 22:19.41 | haakeyar | Norway |
| 22:19.52 | alex88ita | cool |
| 22:19.54 | alex88ita | Rome here |
| 22:20.23 | haakeyar | Ok, well, good luck and good night. :) |
| 22:20.44 | alex88ita | thanks ;) |
| 22:20.50 | alex88ita | see u tomorrow guys, thanks for help |
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| 22:43.39 | balrog-kun | the qemu flashing should be fixed now |
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| 22:54.13 | Ghiottone | mmmm never remove libgcc1 :( |
| 22:54.45 | CM | balrog-kun: What was the problem? |
| 22:55.54 | CM | Ghiottone: Ouch.. :/ |
| 22:56.25 | mwester-n | Ghiottone: oops! |
| 22:57.10 | balrog-kun | CM: in addition to bug #937, for which i committed a workaround on friday, the limit for any image size to flash was 48 MB due to how u-boot uses memory |
| 22:57.25 | balrog-kun | it turns out recent *-devel-* images grew to 50 MB |
| 22:57.43 | CM | Ahh.. Hmm, I haven't noticed |
| 22:57.56 | Ghiottone | is there the way to open a serial console to the neo? |
| 22:58.15 | CM | Ghiottone: While it's on? |
| 22:58.19 | Ghiottone | yes |
| 22:58.25 | balrog-kun | CM: so if i had downloaded an updated the rootfs i would see the issue too perhaps |
| 22:58.34 | mwester-n | thats what the debug board does |
| 22:58.49 | CM | because the gsm modem and the usb-console is on the same |
| 22:58.59 | Ghiottone | no debug board for me |
| 22:59.34 | CM | balrog-kun: I guess so. I haven't seen that they're that big, mine are usually around 44 mb |
| 23:00.42 | balrog-kun | CM: they grow every now and then, i remember when the same issue was reported when they gre from below 32 MB to over 32 MB and i increased the limit to 48 MB squeezing some things as possible |
| 23:01.35 | balrog-kun | actually then the symptom was completely different because u-boot was overwriting part of the rootfs in memory instead of refusing to run like it did this time |
| 23:01.38 | CM | I wonder if they've added python in the latest devel images or what it is that's made them grow with at least 8mb |
| 23:02.07 | balrog-kun | and after flashing some files on the rootfs had wrong contents and it was really hard to track it down because it seemed like the flash had errors |
| 23:02.27 | CM | Heh, I can imagine |
| 23:02.43 | CM | That happened to my uboot env.. The kernel was written over it by a bad uboot |
| 23:03.18 | balrog-kun | yeah, i had that too whne i flashed a debugging kernel |
| 23:03.48 | balrog-kun | the new limit for images is 56 MB but that's near what the rootfs partition size is on real neo so this time it shouldn't hit Qemu more than real Neo |
| 23:04.52 | CM | Good night, it's after midnight here.. :) |
| 23:05.06 | balrog-kun | night CM |
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| 23:49.45 | shred | hi |
| 23:50.22 | shred | where do i find which video codecs/resolution are supported in media player? |
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| 23:59.33 | mwester-n | shred: ask abraxa_ |
