| 00:00.10 | *** join/#openmoko Tronic_ (i=tronic@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe30fa00-139.dhcp.inet.fi) |
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| 00:01.41 | SpeedEvil | bluelightning: people unable to make emergency calls |
| 00:02.09 | SpeedEvil | bluezz: one user using one radio frequency to transfer data will wipe out 8 users. |
| 00:02.34 | cb22_ | SpeedEvil, although it would be fun :) |
| 00:02.37 | SpeedEvil | bluezz: GSM works well only because it is a scheduled service. |
| 00:02.55 | SpeedEvil | bluezz: Other phones do not transmit when you do in your area. |
| 00:03.22 | SpeedEvil | bluezz: this means that the cell-site can recieve your signal from a much longer distance than it could if it was uncontrolled. |
| 00:03.39 | Henryk | bluezz: degrading service for lots of people in the same cell, not following timing requirements, maybe even crashing the base station, getting unfair advantages (there are bits in the protocol for "I'm a emergency worker and I need to place calls even when others can't, so please kick other users out, if necessary" with no security in place other than that a normal handset wouldn't set those bits) |
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| 00:04.56 | cesarb | Henryk: great, now some l33t h4x0r will read this channel's log and try to make his nokia set these bits |
| 00:05.28 | SpeedEvil | Some of these problems can be fixed with a new protocol - with security. But the fundamental problem that radio is not point-point remains. |
| 00:06.16 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: can the new MIMO stuff make it look at least somewhat like point-to-point? |
| 00:06.24 | Henryk | cesarb: should actually be quite easy as they are stored on the sim card. i think there's no secure messaging in place, so you'll probably only need to perform a man-in-the-middle attack on your phone and sim card |
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| 00:06.27 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: to a very limited extent. |
| 00:06.51 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: consider that a 1.8Ghz radio signal has a wavelength of 15cm or so. |
| 00:07.14 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: this means that you need a 15cm antenna to get directivity over 60 degrees - at best |
| 00:07.27 | SpeedEvil | And a 150cm antenna to get 6 degrees. |
| 00:08.10 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: well, cell tower antennas are big... |
| 00:08.28 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: true - but mobile phone ones aren't. Cell towers are indeed doing htis. |
| 00:08.34 | bluezz | There is alot of software for crypting phonecalls, but is there software to secure ones simcard? |
| 00:08.37 | cesarb | (or at least look big, I don't know what's inside these white rectangles) |
| 00:08.51 | bluezz | and even in paranoid cases the IMEI+Simcard and any other information that is important |
| 00:09.21 | Henryk | bluezz: there's no need. the simcard is already protected by a pin |
| 00:09.36 | cb22_ | i've always wondered, what is 'protected' |
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| 00:09.43 | Henryk | (and yes, there's software to encrypt SMS, probably also on sim storage) |
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| 00:10.24 | cb22_ | is the sim protected as in encrypted with the pin, or does the phone impliment it |
| 00:10.33 | bluezz | Henryk, I doubt that is any strong encryption protection? |
| 00:10.49 | Henryk | bluezz: no, doesn't need to be. it's a smart card |
| 00:10.57 | Henryk | cb22_: the sim implements it |
| 00:11.57 | cb22_ | but just thinking about the length of an average pin - if you could read the sim card, you could just try 99999999 pins |
| 00:12.13 | Henryk | a smartcard is in principle a small computer sans keyboard and display. you send it a pin and it either responds "ok" or "not ok, 2 tries left". But it actually is the decision of the card itself, not the phone. and it's quite hard to manipulate the card. you can't just take out the hard disk and put it into a different computer |
| 00:12.55 | Henryk | cb22_: the idea is that you can't read the. you can only communicate with it and it will decide whether it wants to talk to you and what information it gives to you on its own |
| 00:12.57 | cb22_ | really? i always thought of pins as nothing more then storage devices |
| 00:13.15 | Henryk | +sim |
| 00:13.20 | cb22_ | yeah |
| 00:13.58 | cesarb | cb22_: hard disks are also storage devices, but they have their own firmware |
| 00:14.08 | cesarb | cb22_: (and can also be protected by a password, btw) |
| 00:14.19 | cb22_ | suppose so |
| 00:14.50 | Henryk | cesarb: you, but even then its quite easy, because rather macroscopic. in the worst case you'll take the platters out and read them with a laser |
| 00:15.35 | cesarb | Henryk: reading the platters on a modern hard disk isn't trivial. it would be easier to hack into the controller board and make it ignore the password. |
| 00:16.16 | Henryk | in order to manipulate a smart card you'll need something on the order of a scanning electron microscope. plus most modern cards are built to self-destruct should they be tampered with, that makes things even more complicated |
| 00:16.20 | Jiten_ | if the disk is properly made, the data will be encrypted based on the password. |
| 00:16.29 | Henryk | cesarb: yeah, or that |
| 00:16.38 | cesarb | Jiten_: unlikely, as it would take too long |
| 00:16.56 | cesarb | Jiten_: it would have to rewrite hundreds of gigabytes when changing the password |
| 00:16.58 | Henryk | Jiten_: you (or at least the regular user) will want to be able to change their password at will |
| 00:17.33 | Jiten_ | right... didn't consider that :) |
| 00:17.42 | SpeedEvil | No - it can be gotten round. |
| 00:17.47 | SpeedEvil | You have a user-visible password. |
| 00:17.52 | SpeedEvil | And a real one |
| 00:17.59 | SpeedEvil | you store the difference between them |
| 00:18.03 | cesarb | Henryk: I don't think a smart card can self-destruct, since it doesn't have a power source |
| 00:18.21 | SpeedEvil | if the user wants to change the password, you simply store the new difference. |
| 00:18.30 | Henryk | SpeedEvil: sure, that's not a problem once you have the OS up. but you won't want to implement that in hard disk firmware |
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| 00:18.43 | cesarb | Henryk: the one true tamper-proof thing is a IBM PCI coprocessor card, which has its own battery, and self-destructs by removing the power |
| 00:18.46 | SpeedEvil | Henryk: why not? |
| 00:18.56 | madwoota | data encrypted with an unknown, random key, password used to unlock the key itself |
| 00:19.16 | Jiten_ | well, the hard disk just needs some specialized chips to do the encryption :) |
| 00:19.20 | SpeedEvil | madwoota: that too. |
| 00:19.42 | SpeedEvil | (of course you don't store the difference with the ascii password, but with a hash of it) |
| 00:19.53 | madwoota | of course :) |
| 00:20.13 | Henryk | cesarb: ok, self-destruct was an over-simplification. at least it will stop functioning. and there are some designs relying on chemical reaction with the atmosphere and stuff |
| 00:20.37 | cesarb | Henryk: nothing prevents you from using nitrogen. or argon. or a vacuum. |
| 00:20.46 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: thermite |
| 00:21.12 | cesarb | Henryk: it's not possible to reliably self-destruct without a power source, and ideally you'd want to self-destruct on loss of said power source |
| 00:21.21 | Henryk | cesarb: right. there's always a counter-countermeasure. but that's only getting more costly with each measure |
| 00:21.51 | Henryk | cesarb: i know. but for the typical smartcard usage that's quite enough |
| 00:22.13 | cb22_ | and all i asked about was coping a sim card :) |
| 00:22.18 | cesarb | cb22_: heh |
| 00:22.27 | bluezz | cesarb, pleas give me an information page about IBM PCI coprocessor card? |
| 00:23.16 | cesarb | bluezz: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/descrack/ |
| 00:23.59 | bluezz | I allways thougt that a sim card could be dumped down with dd |
| 00:24.24 | Henryk | (and yes, i've read the part in the anderson book where it relates the rumor that the united states president's atomic football is so think for the reason that the circuitry to destruct the nuclear codes on a tamper attempt will have enough time to zero the memory even when you attack it with a plasma charge that moves at serveral kilometres per second) |
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| 00:24.32 | cesarb | bluezz: in particular http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/descrack/ibm4758.html |
| 00:25.07 | cesarb | bluezz: dd only works for block devices, and a SIM would be more like a filesystem than a block device ;-) |
| 00:25.14 | SpeedEvil | Henryk: doing it right is hard if you want to consider all attacks. |
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| 00:25.33 | Henryk | bluezz: no, that's why it's a smart card and not a simple storage card. there have been however (and probably still are) some flawed designs which will 'leak' the key through one trick or another |
| 00:25.46 | cb22_ | the ki key |
| 00:26.39 | bluezz | Henryk, when you refer to the key, you mean the memory of the card? |
| 00:27.02 | Henryk | bluezz: the idea behind smart cards is: you give it the PIN and then it'll decide whether it wants to work for you or not. but even with the right PIN you can't read the key. instead you'll give it the data you want to encrypt, decrypt, sign or verify and it will return the encrypted or decrypted data or signature or verification result |
| 00:27.25 | cesarb | cb22_: AFAIK there are ways to get at that key as long as you already passed the PIN barrier (quite easy for the SIM's owner who already knows the PIN) |
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| 00:27.33 | cb22_ | yeah |
| 00:27.35 | cb22_ | read about that |
| 00:28.29 | Henryk | bluezz: smart cards usually have something like a file system with directorys (called DFs) and files (called EFs) that can have various types. they can store arbitrary data (like the phonebook or messages) (actually these are stored in record oriented files, like small databases) or keys that can be used by the card but not read back |
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| 00:30.55 | cb22_ | you smartasses overseas... |
| 00:31.01 | bluezz | Henryk, Is it passable to create a virual smartcard ? |
| 00:31.05 | bluezz | virtual even |
| 00:31.07 | cb22_ | you crack the encryption between ATMs to get money |
| 00:31.18 | cb22_ | here in south africa we just take guns and blow the thing apart :) |
| 00:31.25 | Henryk | bluezz: sure. or rather: depends on what you want to do |
| 00:32.39 | bluezz | Henryk, Create an virtual card on openmoko and have it stored encrypted |
| 00:33.17 | Henryk | bluezz: you don't want to do that because the storage on the phone is _way_ more unsafe then storing on the card itself |
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| 00:34.26 | cesarb | cb22_: well, from what I've heard, the latest trick on the US is to use the default operator password on ATMs to get to the money |
| 00:34.31 | Henryk | but in principle you'll only need to connect the smartcard holder to I/O pins on the Neo (because it's normally connected directly to the modem), then somehow dump the key from an existing card (shouldn't be possible with modern cards). Oh, and implement the algorithm that's not publically available |
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| 00:34.50 | cb22_ | sounds like a walk in the park |
| 00:35.21 | Henryk | cb22_: a park in south africa at night while looking like someone who has lots of money and no guns. |
| 00:35.29 | bluezz | Henryk, because of the cellphones security issues or? |
| 00:35.30 | cb22_ | hehe |
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| 00:35.55 | Henryk | bluezz: yes. the card is already specially protected against attacks. the phone is not |
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| 00:41.06 | bluezz | Henryk, is there anything you could recommend, with results in that nobody can read the phone number I used if the get hold of the phone? |
| 00:41.55 | SpeedEvil | bluelightning: if the SIM is not unlocked, you can't get the SIMs phone number. |
| 00:42.08 | SpeedEvil | bluezz: without the cooperation of the operator anyway. |
| 00:42.32 | SpeedEvil | If you mean the phone number of the phone. |
| 00:42.34 | bluezz | SpeedEvil, well I said nobody :) |
| 00:42.41 | Henryk | bluezz: the sim has a PIN and can be set to request the PIN when powered on. I have not checked, but I think if it is set this way you won't be able to read the SIMs phone number |
| 00:42.45 | bluezz | SpeedEvil, phone number, and IMEI number |
| 00:43.24 | SpeedEvil | bluezz: IMEI is pretty easy to get - if the phone is reflashed. |
| 00:43.34 | SpeedEvil | (assuming you've pulled the sticker off) |
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| 00:43.46 | Henryk | IMEI: no way. that's printed on the phone and the standard even requires you to print it if you enter a special key sequence (something like *06*# or so) |
| 00:44.14 | SpeedEvil | Henryk: the standard does not however say that the phone has to allow anyone to press the key sequence. |
| 00:44.27 | SpeedEvil | IOW, if it's locked. |
| 00:44.47 | Henryk | SpeedEvil: well ok. but in any case you can simply connect to the built-in modem directly and ask it |
| 00:44.52 | SpeedEvil | bluezz: what are you worried about? |
| 00:45.05 | SpeedEvil | Henryk: which involves opening hte case, so you may as well flash it. |
| 00:45.56 | bluezz | SpeedEvil, well there is alot of cryptophones, and programs for that, but none of them apply to secret the phones identity |
| 00:46.10 | SpeedEvil | bluezz: why do you want to do this? |
| 00:46.10 | bluezz | or I could not find anything |
| 00:47.03 | SpeedEvil | bluezz: IOW - who is the person who you do not want the identity revealed to. |
| 00:47.04 | Henryk | bluezz: because that's kind of pointless. if you want to blur the connection between your identity and your phone number, buy a prepaid card in a country that allows to do this anonymously |
| 00:47.07 | bluezz | Just an paranoid phone ide |
| 00:48.09 | SpeedEvil | bluezz: the only pretty good solution out there is to find someone poor, hand them a large amount of money. Have them sign up for bidirectional satellite internet service. Take the dish away to your fortress of solitude, and use skype. |
| 00:48.21 | SpeedEvil | And yes, you will have horrible delay. |
| 00:48.31 | Henryk | skype is evil |
| 00:48.41 | SpeedEvil | skype or whatever. |
| 00:48.46 | SpeedEvil | I agree. |
| 00:50.40 | Henryk | well, VoIP over tor does work, in principle |
| 00:50.59 | SpeedEvil | Tor has problems against well-funded motivated opponents though. |
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| 00:52.06 | SpeedEvil | The bidir satellite solution is _really_ hard to find. |
| 00:52.19 | bluezz | Well the ide was to apply this to a simple mobile phone |
| 00:52.27 | bluezz | that you could carry around with you |
| 00:52.28 | SpeedEvil | bluezz: you can't. |
| 00:52.35 | bluezz | not a satelite connection unit |
| 00:52.39 | SpeedEvil | bluezz: the network must know who and where you are. |
| 00:53.35 | bluezz | SpeedEvil, Yeah I know the operator can allways look and find out how I am from there, but I am more intressted to hidde it in the phone, and that leaves the operator with X alternatives that have been at the same places. |
| 00:54.44 | SpeedEvil | Define 'hidde it in the phone'. |
| 00:55.19 | Henryk | SpeedEvil: he want's the phone software to neither store nor print the own number |
| 00:55.26 | bluezz | SpeedEvil, any identification for the mobile phone, like IMEI and phone number. |
| 00:55.35 | Henryk | (or dialled or received numbers) |
| 00:55.51 | SpeedEvil | bluezz: you can do that at the moment - barring people with debug boards. |
| 00:55.55 | bluezz | Henryk, Correct |
| 00:56.07 | SpeedEvil | bluezz: with just a phone lock. |
| 00:56.18 | Henryk | And even then it's quite easy: Use an IMSI catcher and set the range down low |
| 00:56.19 | SpeedEvil | and a sim-lock |
| 00:58.48 | bluezz | sim-lock? will that protect me if the operator has the simcard physicaly and want to look around inside it? |
| 00:58.58 | SpeedEvil | No. |
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| 00:59.19 | Henryk | nothing can protect you against the operator. just switch to sealed envelopes and snail mail |
| 01:00.01 | SpeedEvil | And remember that all public mailboxes have concealed cameras, so wear a balaclava. |
| 01:06.38 | Henryk | But don't worry: It's not paranoia if THEY really are after you. |
| 01:08.37 | SpeedEvil | It can be. |
| 01:09.05 | SpeedEvil | You can be mentally ill - have paranoia. Just because you're right doesn't mean that you are not ill. |
| 01:15.47 | jorgenpt | Yes, isn't the saying "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you!" |
| 01:16.30 | Henryk | yeah, I just wanted to sound a little more positive |
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| 01:23.20 | Zakosai | Anyone here play Diamond/pearl? |
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| 03:18.45 | bluezz | Was the pricetag gonna be on openmoko GTA02 ? |
| 03:21.51 | rwhitby | $450 I believe. |
| 03:21.57 | rwhitby | (USD) |
| 03:25.41 | bluezz | I doubt that, most of the electronics are at the same price range still |
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| 04:53.05 | AntonTakk | any rough estimates on how long it takes to build om using the mokomakefile? |
| 04:53.43 | alphaone | AntonTakk: What computer are you building on? |
| 04:54.17 | AntonTakk | amd64 dual 3 ghz 2G ram sata300 hdd |
| 04:56.34 | alphaone | Should be around 3-5h |
| 04:56.57 | alphaone | Unless fetching the files takes ages for you |
| 04:57.31 | AntonTakk | shouldn't be to bad, 1.5 mbit downstream |
| 04:57.44 | AntonTakk | thanks for the info |
| 04:57.55 | alphaone | Be sure you have parallel make and bitbake threads enabled |
| 04:58.24 | alphaone | In your local.conf: you need PARALLEL_MAKE = "-j 2" and BB_NUMBER_THREADS = "4" |
| 04:58.47 | alphaone | At least that's what I have for my AMD64 X2 |
| 04:58.52 | AntonTakk | hrm |
| 04:58.58 | AntonTakk | i set bb threads to 2 |
| 04:59.39 | alphaone | well, some bitbake jobs are heavy on i/o and some are not so it's better to set them higher. |
| 05:00.03 | alphaone | That way you can use the time your cpu waits for some sort of io to finish |
| 05:00.17 | AntonTakk | ah, will adjust that after the build finishes, or fails, whichever :) |
| 05:00.29 | alphaone | :-) |
| 05:00.34 | alphaone | good luck |
| 05:00.40 | AntonTakk | thanks |
| 05:01.18 | AntonTakk | oh, btw, if this builds, i should be able to use the resulting env to build packages for testing, right? |
| 05:02.17 | alphaone | yeah. |
| 05:03.11 | alphaone | Do you want to test a particular app or just in general? |
| 05:03.39 | AntonTakk | efl and related toys :) |
| 05:07.04 | alphaone | ah, cool :-) |
| 05:07.08 | alphaone | Have fun |
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| 05:50.14 | AntonTakk | hrm, open embedded has some bitbake files for some of the e17 stuff already |
| 05:54.49 | alphaone | yeah |
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| 05:56.54 | BryceLeo | i should hope so, raster's been spending a bunch of time on it |
| 05:57.51 | AntonTakk | hrm |
| 05:58.30 | AntonTakk | i knew he had been doing some work, but i thought it was all on code |
| 05:59.21 | AntonTakk | happen to know if it compiles and is actually workable? |
| 06:00.05 | Sup3rkiddo | woohoo, i just made a call from the Openmoko instead of qtopia |
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| 06:03.54 | raster | AntonTakk: only been doing work on code |
| 06:05.28 | BryceLeo | AntonTakk: soorry i don't know if it compiles |
| 06:05.51 | AntonTakk | eh, how hard could it possibly be to find out :) |
| 06:06.28 | BryceLeo | hey there raster how's life been treating you? |
| 06:06.47 | BryceLeo | there should be a way to hot-swap kernels.... |
| 06:07.04 | BryceLeo | i just don't want to reboot right now |
| 06:07.11 | AntonTakk | BryceLeo: kexec, theoretically |
| 06:07.29 | AntonTakk | but i don't think anyone has actually done it |
| 06:07.50 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@introspect.com) |
| 06:08.00 | AntonTakk | would be nice thou |
| 06:08.05 | BryceLeo | hmmmm |
| 06:08.05 | BryceLeo | it's certainly worth looking into |
| 06:08.09 | BryceLeo | that's for sure |
| 06:08.27 | *** join/#openmoko Q_Continuum (n=Q@71-215-201-136.mpls.qwest.net) |
| 06:08.40 | BryceLeo | heh i'm gonna try it out, there's an ubuntu package for it |
| 06:09.20 | stefan_schmidt | BryceLeo: For kexec? Why would you need any ubuntu package for it? |
| 06:09.25 | *** join/#openmoko kW_ (n=kwkw@d7-164.dip.axsp.de) |
| 06:09.56 | BryceLeo | well, then i can get any updates bugfixes etc, with no brain power |
| 06:10.07 | stefan_schmidt | BryceLeo, AntonTakk: Take a look at the bugtracker. There is a sugessted patch for kexec and OE have the needed kexec userspace tools |
| 06:10.40 | BryceLeo | unlike my image magic where i have an old version with a fantastic bug, a stable version for the majority of my work, and a nighly build with cron |
| 06:11.05 | BryceLeo | ohh stefan_schmidt i mean for my desktop not for OpenMoko |
| 06:11.21 | BryceLeo | sorry for not clarifying |
| 06:11.21 | *** part/#openmoko BryceLeo (i=bryce@gateway/tor/x-15baefe652937712) |
| 06:11.34 | stefan_schmidt | BryceLeo: Ah, then it makes of course sense. |
| 06:11.36 | *** join/#openmoko BryceLeo (i=bryce@gateway/tor/x-15baefe652937712) |
| 06:11.48 | stefan_schmidt | <stefan_schmidt> BryceLeo: Ah, then it makes of course sense. |
| 06:11.56 | BryceLeo | haha thanks :-D |
| 06:12.58 | *** part/#openmoko pmax (n=pmax@80-254-76-2.dynamic.monzoon.net) |
| 06:13.19 | BryceLeo | alrighty, looks like a reboot is in order |
| 06:13.20 | BryceLeo | brb |
| 06:13.22 | *** part/#openmoko BryceLeo (i=bryce@gateway/tor/x-15baefe652937712) |
| 06:17.25 | *** join/#openmoko BryceLeo (i=bryce@gateway/tor/x-7671247e10df71f1) |
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| 06:18.25 | *** join/#openmoko faern (n=faern@faern.olf.sgsnet.se) |
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| 06:25.36 | raster | BryceLeo: not too bad - i'm jobless, homeless and pennyless atm :) |
| 06:26.02 | BryceLeo | whaaaaatttttt?!?!?!?! |
| 06:26.16 | BryceLeo | raster only on the internet can you sound so ok with this sort of thing |
| 06:26.48 | |R | hehe |
| 06:26.54 | BryceLeo | figure things will look up soon enough? |
| 06:27.32 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=khmhm@dsl54009F0D.pool.t-online.hu) |
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| 06:33.10 | raster | BryceLeo: hehehehe |
| 06:33.20 | raster | BryceLeo: it's a transitory situation :) |
| 06:33.46 | BryceLeo | haha raster with the quality of your code i can't imagine you being jobless for long. |
| 06:34.02 | AntonTakk | no samba4 in oe yet, this could be a problem |
| 06:34.11 | raster | BryceLeo: let's see |
| 06:34.18 | raster | it does mean i have time to hack on my theme... |
| 06:34.18 | raster | :) |
| 06:34.20 | BryceLeo | that sort of attention to detail and planning has to spill over into evertythign |
| 06:34.50 | BryceLeo | hehehe sweeet |
| 06:34.53 | BryceLeo | free time is a good thing |
| 06:34.59 | BryceLeo | well in alot of cases |
| 06:39.53 | Sup3rkiddo | guys check out the screenshot and need your comments, http://sudharsh.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/screenshot.png |
| 06:43.00 | DukeOfURL | pygsmd? |
| 06:43.32 | DukeOfURL | driving the gsm chip with your own stuff? |
| 06:45.14 | DukeOfURL | or is it a wrapper around gsmd? |
| 06:45.15 | Sup3rkiddo | DukeOfURL, no, no, some bindings to the libgsmd, |
| 06:45.24 | Sup3rkiddo | DukeOfURL, wrapper |
| 06:45.45 | Sup3rkiddo | i know zecke has created another one, but this doesnt depend on libmokogsmd |
| 06:45.51 | raster | BryceLeo: i nver do anything without a plan :) i'm a jobless penniless homeless bum for a good reason :) |
| 06:46.49 | *** join/#openmoko foomil__ (n=nilsense@dslb-088-076-240-236.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 06:48.00 | BryceLeo | raster, well that's certainly a good thing. Am i allowed to ask the good reason? Needed to shake up your life a bit? |
| 06:48.09 | stefan_schmidt | raster: Just come over and I sponsor you some drinks. ;) |
| 06:48.24 | DukeOfURL | Sup3rkiddo: is it possible to get signal strength from all available base stations? or just one? |
| 06:48.57 | Sup3rkiddo | DukeOfURL, i didnt bind that, since i wasnt sure if it would work.. |
| 06:49.19 | DukeOfURL | oh. just a question I have. |
| 06:49.39 | Sup3rkiddo | DukeOfURL, the code is here, http://projects.openmoko.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/?root=python-openmoko |
| 06:49.47 | Sup3rkiddo | warning, reallyt noobish though |
| 06:50.36 | DukeOfURL | I'm learning Python as well. Marvelous tool. |
| 06:51.21 | alphaone | stefan_schmidt: You don't even have money at the moment... |
| 06:51.55 | BryceLeo | haha stefan_schmidt you and raster are in the same country arent you |
| 06:51.57 | stefan_schmidt | alphaone: Right, my assitent would pay the drinks then. |
| 06:52.29 | stefan_schmidt | BryceLeo: Flights are cheap ;) |
| 06:52.59 | raster | stefan_schmidt: hehehehe :) |
| 06:53.41 | raster | BryceLeo: let's see :) that may need to wait to talk about |
| 06:53.41 | BryceLeo | hahah stefan_schmidt not if you're in the US looking at a flight out to taiwan, korea, or china it's a taaaad expensive, certainly not a day trip |
| 06:54.01 | alphaone | stefan_schmidt: At least I'm assisting people :-) |
| 06:54.40 | BryceLeo | haha raster that makes sense. |
| 06:54.43 | stefan_schmidt | alphaone: You mean pester them during a short after breakfast nap? ;) |
| 06:55.24 | alphaone | If by "short nap" you mean "4 hour sleep", then yeah. |
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| 06:56.32 | stefan_schmidt | alphaone: of course |
| 06:58.21 | DukeOfURL | Sup3rkiddo: is there resource material for C<->Python binding? tutorial? |
| 06:58.54 | Sup3rkiddo | DukeOfURL, yeah, check out the latest python magazine, some introductory stuff is covered |
| 06:59.09 | BryceLeo | DukeOfURL if get the source for the python-gnome bindings and look at it, it's quite explanatory |
| 06:59.24 | DukeOfURL | online or paper magazine? |
| 07:00.24 | DukeOfURL | found it--thanks |
| 07:00.28 | Sup3rkiddo | DukeOfURL, ebook, |
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| 07:24.33 | cdm | played with a NEO at work the other day. |
| 07:24.42 | cdm | one of the guys had one. |
| 07:24.45 | cdm | nice screen. |
| 07:24.47 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 07:26.31 | Hopscotch | guten morgen |
| 07:30.03 | *** join/#openmoko linux-bastler (n=linux-ba@p5B12F1F4.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 07:30.15 | cdm | Just FYI -- I am hiring people to work on Linux stuff for embedded/mobile. If anyone is interested, let me know. |
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| 07:49.34 | alphaone | cdm: Stop stealing people ;-) |
| 07:50.23 | alphaone | cdm: Unless your work is on the Neo/OpenMoko. Then of course go ahead. |
| 07:50.57 | stefan_schmidt | hmm, this asia bathtub are to small for western people in my opinion |
| 07:51.16 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@pdpc/supporter/active/bluelightning) |
| 07:51.26 | cdm | alphaone: maybe not on those, but what we are doing @ Palm will hopefully be usefull to everyone. |
| 07:52.50 | alphaone | cdm: Fair enough. I wasn't really serious anyway :-) |
| 07:53.12 | cdm | :) |
| 07:53.15 | cdm | I figured. |
| 07:53.33 | alphaone | Any work is great as long as it's opened and can be used by the community. |
| 07:56.52 | cdm | Anything we do kernel side will be opened up -- and hopefully will make it into the mainline kernel. |
| 07:57.16 | cdm | http://www.linkedin.com/in/christophermckillop -- in case anyone is wondering who I am. :) |
| 07:57.59 | BryceLeo | haha nice resume |
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| 07:59.50 | alphaone | cdm: Getting into mainline is always good. That way you don't have to constantly try to keep up with the changes there. (Or keep using an obsolete kernel) |
| 08:00.20 | cdm | exactly. |
| 08:01.56 | alphaone | cdm: So you were annoyed by the closed nature of the iphone? :-) |
| 08:01.58 | *** join/#openmoko hardskinone (n=hardskin@host61-168-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 08:02.19 | cdm | alphaone: In some ways -- but mostly excited about working for Jon Rubenstien again. |
| 08:02.25 | cdm | he was running iPod when I first joined Apple. |
| 08:02.40 | cdm | I was the 3rd or 4th person on his linux team then. |
| 08:03.45 | alphaone | cdm: Linux team? iPod? |
| 08:05.19 | cdm | ;) |
| 08:05.24 | cdm | that is all I will say right now. |
| 08:05.28 | cdm | someday maybe I will write a book. |
| 08:05.33 | *** join/#openmoko xamindar (n=xamindar@c-67-188-113-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 08:06.01 | alphaone | cdm: Okay. Consider my as interested in it :-) |
| 08:06.17 | cdm | http://www.everythingtreo.com/news/palm/palm-sells-25-percent-stake-to-private-equity-group-20070610516/ |
| 08:07.11 | cdm | it was more then that. |
| 08:07.41 | stefan_schmidt | cdm: So consider me also interested. :) |
| 08:07.48 | BryceLeo | moi aussi |
| 08:08.01 | stefan_schmidt | cdm: Just send one to OpenMoko Inc. once you are done. :) |
| 08:08.39 | cdm | hehehe |
| 08:09.31 | raster | only kernel stuff open? |
| 08:09.36 | raster | thats a bit limited |
| 08:09.57 | raster | and pretty useless if you decide to move drivers to userspace |
| 08:10.14 | raster | (useless in terms of being open) |
| 08:10.15 | raster | :) |
| 08:10.20 | cdm | hey raster |
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| 08:10.22 | cdm | ltns |
| 08:10.34 | raster | cdm: hey hey :) |
| 08:10.46 | cdm | raster: it's the only part I can commit one-way-or-another to being open. |
| 08:10.54 | BryceLeo | true enough |
| 08:11.05 | *** join/#openmoko sixfeet (i=sixfeet@p5484D953.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 08:11.23 | cdm | raster: still down under? |
| 08:11.31 | raster | cdm: thats fair enough |
| 08:11.46 | raster | cdm: but compared to openmoko's committment to open... its pretty pale :) |
| 08:12.01 | raster | cdm: nah! was there, then jpan for almsot 4 years, now out of japan |
| 08:12.17 | raster | being a jobless bum kicking up a stick in asia |
| 08:12.18 | raster | :) |
| 08:12.34 | cdm | raster: oh yeah, I know. But we are making trying to make products again -- rather then platforms. |
| 08:12.42 | cdm | http://www.everythingtreo.com/news/palm/palm-sells-25-percent-stake-to-private-equity-group-20070610516/ |
| 08:13.14 | raster | cdm: just read. |
| 08:13.27 | raster | lets see |
| 08:13.29 | raster | :) |
| 08:13.34 | alp | cdm: does Palm have its own browser engine? |
| 08:13.45 | raster | i'd stick my eggs in openmoko's basket |
| 08:14.16 | raster | basically because they are open :) |
| 08:14.52 | cdm | alp: in-house all new engine kinda of thing? Hell no. That would be kinda dumb. :) |
| 08:15.33 | alp | cdm: nope, quite the opposite. i remember one of the mobile companies, maybe one of the baby Palms (PalmSource?) had an old school mobile browser |
| 08:15.37 | cdm | raster: openmoko's gonna get a kick in the pants from guys in the Valley pretty soon. |
| 08:15.37 | *** join/#openmoko pH5 (n=ph5@p5485D867.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 08:15.52 | cdm | alp: Yeah, that is the old palm source stuff now at Access. |
| 08:15.54 | BryceLeo | aiighty guys i'ts 4am for me so i'm off to bed, i've got two miderms coming up and a crazy cram session scheduled tomorrrow |
| 08:16.02 | cdm | and Access has NetFront |
| 08:16.08 | alp | right, that was it |
| 08:16.12 | cdm | this has nothing to do with any of the old Palm stuff. |
| 08:16.12 | BryceLeo | goodnight all, it's been fun |
| 08:16.17 | cdm | Palm has been rebooted. |
| 08:17.12 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 08:20.14 | stefan_schmidt | cdm: I think I wait for more hard facts before thinking to much about this. :) |
| 08:21.02 | cdm | sure. |
| 08:21.24 | cdm | stefan: which in particular? :) |
| 08:22.03 | *** join/#openmoko Fradeve (n=fradeve@87.18.253.125) |
| 08:22.33 | stefan_schmidt | cdm: What kind of kick in the pants? What kind of hardware we are talking about? Where is the code to take a look? What restrictions does it all have?... |
| 08:23.39 | stefan_schmidt | cdm: I mean it's always nice to the companies going more open, but personally I like to the details before getting hyped by it. |
| 08:23.44 | cdm | stefan -- do you know who I mean is doing the kicking? |
| 08:23.49 | cdm | it isn't us. |
| 08:23.53 | cdm | us == Palm |
| 08:24.02 | alphaone | cdm: So who's it? |
| 08:24.08 | stefan_schmidt | cdm: I know that you are perhaps not able to give me thois facts right noe |
| 08:24.17 | stefan_schmidt | now. That fine. I can wait. |
| 08:24.31 | alphaone | one of your former employers? |
| 08:24.32 | *** join/#openmoko tri (n=tri@p57AD852E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 08:24.34 | stefan_schmidt | cdm: Yeah, got that. |
| 08:24.51 | cdm | no |
| 08:24.56 | stefan_schmidt | cdm: Still interested more in facts. |
| 08:25.06 | *** join/#openmoko mypapit (n=mypapit@pdpc/supporter/active/mypapit) |
| 08:25.11 | cdm | stefan: Me too -- I don't have them all. |
| 08:25.29 | cdm | and it won't be as open as OM, but it will be impressive. |
| 08:25.29 | stefan_schmidt | cdm: I don't live in "the valley", so I don't hear all the mumbles. :) |
| 08:26.06 | stefan_schmidt | cdm: I'll keep an eye in this area. |
| 08:26.16 | alphaone | cdm: We'll see how that turns out. A little competition is always good. |
| 08:26.23 | stefan_schmidt | cdm: And don't forget to send the book. ;) |
| 08:26.25 | raster | cdm: let's see about that :) |
| 08:27.44 | cdm | raster: those guys have been working on shit for years. If it isn't freaking amazing in some respects then I am going to consider it a huge let down. |
| 08:28.03 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@archangel.kolej.mff.cuni.cz) |
| 08:30.36 | alphaone | cdm: The nice thing about open source is that you can benefit from different projects. If they have nice stuff you can adopt it. Of course for that it will have to be open source first. |
| 08:31.50 | stefan_schmidt | raster: Any idea in what kind of tattoo I should integrate the scar? ;) |
| 08:31.52 | *** join/#openmoko hardskinone (n=hardskin@host61-168-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 08:32.25 | alphaone | But enough speculations, I'm starting to get hungry. |
| 08:32.32 | cdm | :) |
| 08:32.38 | cdm | I am starting to get tired. |
| 08:32.43 | stefan_schmidt | alphaone: Moment, let me just put on some socks and shoes |
| 08:32.45 | alphaone | :-) |
| 08:32.49 | stefan_schmidt | bbiab |
| 08:33.05 | alphaone | stefan_schmidt: And other stuff I don't want to talk about |
| 08:33.13 | alphaone | j/k |
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| 08:46.22 | Elessar_81 | Hello. may I ask some questions about running openmoko under ubunutu in an qemu emulation? |
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| 09:17.01 | stefan_schmidt | But it's fine with me |
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| 09:23.15 | Kero | fine with me, too. I don't hear his music :) |
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| 10:36.28 | Linux_Galore | the clock on the today window really needs to be bigger, HTC have got this one thing right |
| 10:36.54 | Linux_Galore | if your going to have a clock make it easy to see |
| 10:37.48 | mickeyl | you mean the cock in the panel? |
| 10:37.48 | *** join/#openmoko von___fritz (n=fritz@host88-177-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 10:37.52 | mickeyl | ups, clock, even |
| 10:38.01 | mickeyl | or the date in the today window? |
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| 10:41.42 | Soner | http://www.stormofcash.com/index.php?ref=ezis15 EARN REALL MONEY ON E-GOLD!!! |
| 10:41.46 | *** part/#openmoko Soner (i=lliabka@81.198.255.61) |
| 10:42.22 | LittleIdiot | *sigh* |
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| 10:49.37 | cb22_ | mickeyl, bad typo :) |
| 10:49.53 | mickeyl | ;) |
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| 10:53.11 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
| 10:53.21 | PBeck | hi |
| 10:53.30 | cb22_ | bye :) |
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| 10:55.19 | Linux_Galore | mickeyl: yes its too small to be functional, go look at a HTC phones default screen, a nice big and clearly visable clock |
| 10:56.21 | *** join/#openmoko von__fritz (n=fritz@host88-177-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 10:58.16 | mickeyl | hmm |
| 10:58.37 | mickeyl | well, the major problem seems to me that you won't get a clock anyways when the phone is suspended |
| 10:58.55 | mickeyl | because the display is turned off |
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| 11:00.34 | Linux_Galore | mickeyl: this is the default screen on an older HTC touch http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/sc/32465595-2-440-FT.jpg |
| 11:01.23 | SpeedEvil | In principle with the GTA02 - you can turn off the CPU and have the GPU simply refresh the screen at a low brightness. |
| 11:01.27 | SpeedEvil | (AIUI) |
| 11:01.48 | Linux_Galore | Dell have an intresting clock on their PDA http://www.spbsoftwarehouse.com/products/time/images/InCradle.jpg |
| 11:01.49 | pH5 | heh, I use the resume-look at clock-suspend cycle quite a lot, and big numbers would certainly help with that. |
| 11:01.57 | Linux_Galore | interesting* |
| 11:02.05 | SpeedEvil | Unfortunately the screen chosen simply does not allow any visibility at all without backlight. |
| 11:02.08 | keesj | saytime is also cool |
| 11:03.55 | linux-bastler | Does anybody know how good the choosen ATR0635 GPS Receiver is? |
| 11:03.55 | linux-bastler | I only know what I read on many places: SiRF-StarIII shall be good and one of the best chips today. |
| 11:04.25 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: always set the softkey to turn the screen on for 3 seconds or when you shake the phone ie GTA02 it turns the screen on |
| 11:04.55 | SpeedEvil | Low backlight isn't actually that bad. |
| 11:05.05 | Shoragan | linux-bastler, the u-blox should have similar performance to a sirf star 3 |
| 11:05.31 | cb22_ | yep, read the same thing |
| 11:05.35 | cb22_ | same sensitivity |
| 11:05.59 | SpeedEvil | I wish they'd gone with HH and HH had been slightly more with specs. |
| 11:06.17 | SpeedEvil | But... |
| 11:06.40 | Linux_Galore | for me if you going to have a clock do it properly ie make it easily visible or just save the space for something else |
| 11:06.41 | cb22_ | maybe they should've put out a challenge |
| 11:07.04 | cb22_ | create a perfectly working reverse engineered driver, and we'll give you a gta02 and you your driver |
| 11:07.45 | abraxa__ | cb22_: I'd think one GTA02 is a little cheap for that ;) |
| 11:07.57 | cb22_ | heh, a few then |
| 11:08.15 | cb22_ | and a nice warm fuzzy feeling |
| 11:08.29 | Linux_Galore | or just offer a chalenge, create a driver and get a gold plated OM |
| 11:09.14 | SpeedEvil | If there was some reward - financial - I'd may have been putting in hours/day, rather than days/hour |
| 11:09.45 | abraxa_ | Well, it would be nice for the community indeed, however such a challenge means that the outcome is not guaranteed to work and the time frame is too long to guarantee that the release date isn't pushed back even more |
| 11:11.17 | Linux_Galore | heh, just had a funny thought, imagine getting an OM thats gold plated, and I mean everything is gold plated ie the screen |
| 11:11.29 | SpeedEvil | That's why you use screen protectors. |
| 11:11.42 | SpeedEvil | If someone goldplates your neo, you just remove the protector. |
| 11:12.22 | cjb_ie | ...and sell it? :-) |
| 11:12.35 | Linux_Galore | got to play with a HTC Tytn II last week, not bad |
| 11:13.18 | *** join/#openmoko von__fritz (n=fritz@host88-177-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 11:13.32 | Linux_Galore | the screen was a bit everage though |
| 11:13.37 | Linux_Galore | average* |
| 11:13.57 | SpeedEvil | abraxa_: no - however as it ended up it would - with the progress that was going on - be not unlikely to have a driver by the time that the decision was made for the GPS. |
| 11:14.25 | Linux_Galore | StarWars edition of the OM, your for a mere geeky $799, may the source be with you |
| 11:14.31 | Linux_Galore | yours* |
| 11:14.52 | Linux_Galore | :-P |
| 11:15.19 | *** join/#openmoko vivijim (n=vivijim@86.115.13.57) |
| 11:16.01 | Linux_Galore | the stylus looks like a light saber heh |
| 11:16.58 | abraxa_ | SpeedEvil: Yeah, maybe... from my point of view I'm happy with either choice as long as the GPS works - sub-meter precision is irrelevant for me personally |
| 11:17.22 | SpeedEvil | It's not only that. There are other potential nicenesses, but... |
| 11:17.32 | Linux_Galore | just going down the right street for many is what they want |
| 11:18.08 | SpeedEvil | Sub meter precision can buy you stuff like telling direction after you've walked 0.5m. rather than 2m |
| 11:18.31 | abraxa_ | SpeedEvil: The best way to convince the OM folks to switch back to HH would be to provide a working driver, though I can see that your motivation is not too high if it's not even up for discussion |
| 11:18.36 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: lol, what you want a "find my keys" applet |
| 11:19.28 | SpeedEvil | abraxa_: the problem is that it's likely to be several hundred hours more work, and useful to maybe 200 people. |
| 11:19.48 | SpeedEvil | So... |
| 11:19.50 | abraxa_ | That's my point, yeah |
| 11:20.21 | Linux_Galore | really OM should just get the basic working functions going right now, let the hackers have a go at adding apps |
| 11:23.00 | Linux_Galore | I would have listed 5 things that the OM must be able to do, make sure it does them very well then worry about the other stuff |
| 11:23.21 | Linux_Galore | ie make and receive calls, sms, etc |
| 11:23.41 | SpeedEvil | And communicate to the community what you are _not_ doing. |
| 11:23.52 | cjb_ie | sub metre precision would definitely be nice for openstreetmap. |
| 11:23.57 | SpeedEvil | So they can do it without making the assumption that 'of course they are doing that'. |
| 11:24.01 | SpeedEvil | cjb: that too. |
| 11:24.45 | cjb_ie | how feasible do you actually reckon it would be to get sub metre precision? |
| 11:25.24 | SpeedEvil | In principle, with a close local corrector it should be practical for stationary points. |
| 11:25.35 | SpeedEvil | Probably for post-corrected tracks too. |
| 11:25.42 | SpeedEvil | Doing it dynamically may be tricky. |
| 11:25.51 | cjb_ie | oooh, post-corrected tracks would be very very nice. |
| 11:25.56 | Linux_Galore | cjb_ie: if you know the GSM towers exact position its very simple with gps as a cross reference |
| 11:26.03 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 11:26.11 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: yes |
| 11:26.15 | SpeedEvil | You don't get good enough info from the GSM towers |
| 11:26.38 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: they use the same trick in Melbourne harbour they can get it down to less than 1/2 meter |
| 11:26.38 | cjb_ie | Linux_Galore: but all you get from GSM is the attenuation, which is far too terrain-sensitive? |
| 11:26.57 | SpeedEvil | linuxperv: that may be AGPS |
| 11:27.16 | SpeedEvil | linuxperv: using the GPS and an assistance server nearby |
| 11:27.43 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: they know the exact position of the GPS towers |
| 11:28.02 | Linux_Galore | sorry GSM |
| 11:28.10 | cjb_ie | Linux_Galore: [citation needed] |
| 11:28.33 | SpeedEvil | linuxperv: It's also easy if you can stick stuff on the towers that computes the phones position. |
| 11:28.42 | SpeedEvil | Doing it phone-side is trickier AIUI. |
| 11:29.55 | Linux_Galore | the problem with Melbourne harbour is its HUGE and GPS doesnt work that well in that enviroment so the CSIRO developed a neat trick to get a more accurate bearing using GSM towers |
| 11:30.12 | cjb_ie | why doesn't GPS work well there? |
| 11:30.37 | Linux_Galore | not enough satalites |
| 11:30.51 | Linux_Galore | satellites* |
| 11:30.54 | cjb_ie | coo, didn't think melbourne was that far south |
| 11:31.33 | Linux_Galore | accuracy is really bad, dont forget you have fog too, so if you not within 10 meters you wont see a thing |
| 11:32.31 | Linux_Galore | imagine trying to find someone on a little blow up raft in an area the size of Wales |
| 11:32.37 | cjb_ie | hmm, it's a good ten degrees closer to the equator than me, and i don't have any significant problem. are there very high hills blocking the northern sky? |
| 11:32.47 | Linux_Galore | then add fog and crappy gps accuracy |
| 11:33.08 | SpeedEvil | linuxperv: have you actually experienced the GPS inaccuracy? Or is this secondhand? |
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| 11:34.16 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: no, there was an accident and a boat sank after an accident and they couldnt find the survivors for hours even though they knew were they were \ |
| 11:34.56 | Linux_Galore | its was one the new years ago and I remember not long after a science doco on the new method of working around the GPS problem |
| 11:35.08 | SpeedEvil | Can /I turn off mappaint? |
| 11:35.12 | Linux_Galore | on the news* |
| 11:35.55 | Linux_Galore | its was on the news years ago and I remember not long after a science doco reporting on a new method of working around the GPS problem |
| 11:35.56 | SpeedEvil | I find that difficult to believe. |
| 11:36.14 | SpeedEvil | The position will be within 100m easily even in the worst of satellite conditions. |
| 11:36.29 | SpeedEvil | in open ocean with a properly functioning non-jammed reciever. |
| 11:36.30 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: in fog you have to be within 10 meters |
| 11:36.44 | SpeedEvil | Which is irrelevant. |
| 11:36.51 | SpeedEvil | As the ocean tends to move. |
| 11:37.04 | *** join/#openmoko ScaredyCat (n=andy@net-pbx.demon.nl) |
| 11:37.10 | cb22_ | doesnt the new chip also support DGPS? |
| 11:37.13 | SpeedEvil | And a position accurate to 10m after hours will not be accurate to 10m for a floating hting. |
| 11:37.22 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: dude, you cant see jack shit unless your within 10 meters of the raft, this is a huge harbour |
| 11:37.26 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: it supports WAAS and assorted thigns. |
| 11:37.33 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: the water is pretty flat |
| 11:37.36 | cb22_ | yeah, i read about that |
| 11:37.39 | cb22_ | pretty cool |
| 11:37.49 | SpeedEvil | linuxperv: which is completely irrelevant unless the raft is constantly broadcasting its exact position. |
| 11:38.13 | SpeedEvil | If you get one GPS position, and try to go to it, the raft will have moved. |
| 11:38.20 | cb22_ | SpeedEvil, premature tabbing? |
| 11:38.25 | SpeedEvil | Sigh |
| 11:38.29 | cjb_ie | SpeedEvil: it sounds to me like it's real-time tracking of people with phones, no GPS involved. |
| 11:38.41 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: the other problem is they couldn't go out in large numbers because they were worried about collisions |
| 11:38.47 | SpeedEvil | cjb: perhaps - lots can be done if you ahve all the towers. |
| 11:39.06 | cb22_ | triangulation? |
| 11:39.16 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: basically - yes. |
| 11:39.29 | cjb_ie | triangulation and (accurate) range-finding |
| 11:39.30 | cb22_ | but wouldnt the terrain and conditions affect that? |
| 11:39.49 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: if you use the fact that several towers can compare the recieve time of a signal compared to local GPS timebase, it can get accurate. |
| 11:39.59 | cb22_ | nifty |
| 11:41.20 | Jiten_ | considering the subject, this might be interesting: http://gsmloc.org/ |
| 11:41.34 | SpeedEvil | Unless you have live comms between the boats with red/blue displays, GPS doesn't actually help to avoid collisions. |
| 11:41.57 | SpeedEvil | Unless you have practiced well enough that you can all work an independant grid. |
| 11:42.01 | SpeedEvil | Which is _hard_ |
| 11:42.39 | SpeedEvil | As though y your position, you don't know everyone elses. |
| 11:44.12 | cjb_ie | yeah, gps is not radar |
| 11:44.37 | Linux_Galore | I have a feeling though they have put more satellites up so its not such an issue now |
| 11:44.50 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (n=fredsiba@p549504A0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 11:45.09 | cjb_ie | unless the search/rescue types have realtime display of what the GSM towers are finding. |
| 11:46.44 | Linux_Galore | you could also use radio towers as a reference \ |
| 11:48.31 | SpeedEvil | linuxperv: that doesn't really work well |
| 11:49.37 | SpeedEvil | linux_ As it's hard to do it on that side - the phone doesn't usually get a great idea where it is. The towers have a good idea where the phone is as they can do the accurate relative timing. The phone can't really do this as well. |
| 11:50.07 | cjb_ie | yup, the phone essentially talks to one tower at a time, doesn't it |
| 11:54.26 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03mickey * r3157 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-firststart2/ (intltool-extract.in intltool-merge.in intltool-update.in): openmoko-firststart2: bump intltool scripts |
| 11:54.38 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03mickey * r3158 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-firststart2/ (data/Makefile.in data/ui.glade src/main.c): openmoko-firststart2: add page for security settings |
| 11:57.11 | *** join/#openmoko Fradeve87 (n=fradeve@87.18.196.211) |
| 11:59.15 | SpeedEvil | cjb: mostly - yes. But all towers recieve the phone when it broadcasts. |
| 12:00.42 | *** join/#openmoko ossman (n=drzeus@gateway.drzeus.cx) |
| 12:05.05 | mickeyl | Shoragan: ping |
| 12:05.16 | Shoragan | pong |
| 12:05.18 | mickeyl | Shoragan: i guess you forgot to commit hack-gta02-cpu.patch |
| 12:05.22 | mickeyl | whatever this may be |
| 12:05.23 | mickeyl | :) |
| 12:05.26 | Shoragan | ahrg |
| 12:05.49 | kristian-m | do you think it makes sense to use the time provided by GPS to set the system clock? - should by pretty accurate, right? |
| 12:05.52 | mickeyl | mtn list missing is a nice command |
| 12:06.32 | mickeyl | i don't know enough about gps |
| 12:07.13 | kristian-m | hmm maybe it should be an option in an adjust sys-time panel |
| 12:07.27 | Shoragan | list missing doesn't show it |
| 12:07.48 | mickeyl | Shoragan: right, it's probably mtn list unknown then |
| 12:08.11 | Shoragan | yes, thats it :) |
| 12:08.20 | Shoragan | svn/svk status show those files |
| 12:08.35 | Shoragan | so i was using mtn status |
| 12:08.48 | mickeyl | *nod* |
| 12:08.59 | mickeyl | so what's this hack-gta02-cpu patch about and why can't it be in svn? |
| 12:09.38 | Shoragan | it's for fixing the depenencies of gta02 to CPU_S3C2442 |
| 12:10.22 | Shoragan | in reality we should move the files to the 2442 directories and fix them there, but to keep the .22 and .23 patches similar for now i added that fix |
| 12:10.43 | mickeyl | hmm, k |
| 12:10.51 | Shoragan | and it should disappear when we change to .23 for real |
| 12:15.31 | Shoragan | mickeyl, i've added them now |
| 12:16.37 | mickeyl | k, thanks |
| 12:16.48 | mickeyl | what's holding us back to make .23.1 the stable one? |
| 12:17.54 | Shoragan | laforge wants to apply all outstanding patches to .22 first |
| 12:18.43 | Shoragan | and the display was not working for .23 and gta-02 the last time i had access to one ;) |
| 12:19.32 | mickeyl | right |
| 12:19.53 | mickeyl | btw., what's was the culprit with printascii for .23 ? |
| 12:19.55 | mickeyl | did you find out? |
| 12:20.35 | Shoragan | the layout of the include files changed |
| 12:20.54 | Shoragan | so i just added the extern directly in printk.c |
| 12:21.06 | Shoragan | and the correct config options must be set |
| 12:21.17 | mickeyl | k |
| 12:21.50 | Shoragan | but it shouldn't be necessary right now, i used it only for debugging the cpu setup routines |
| 12:22.12 | SpeedEvil | linux_ On reflection - if this incident was before 1998 - selective availability will have been on. This kills accuracy - in the best conditions you get a 150m wander. If it was much before, you will have been running into problems with an incomplete constellation. My earlier comments were based on neither of these being true. |
| 12:26.03 | *** join/#openmoko Cap_J_L_Picard (n=ewanm89@134.219.164.182) |
| 12:27.35 | *** join/#openmoko der_io (n=der@p54A0DB6E.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:28.32 | stefan_schmidt | re |
| 12:30.09 | *** join/#openmoko KenSentMe (n=jeroen@kensentme.xs4all.nl) |
| 12:30.35 | raster | stefan_schmidt: hey - you had dinner? |
| 12:30.40 | raster | missed you leaving |
| 12:30.44 | raster | was out walking around |
| 12:30.59 | stefan_schmidt | raster: Not really. Just abused the snacks in our hotel. |
| 12:31.07 | stefan_schmidt | raster: Like to go out for it? |
| 12:31.17 | raster | well werner is here and asking about food |
| 12:31.24 | raster | hejust got out of the shower |
| 12:31.29 | raster | give us maybe 10 or 20 mins |
| 12:31.47 | alphaone | raster: Fine with me |
| 12:32.00 | stefan_schmidt | raster: Well, we just returned from a small shop visiting around the hotel |
| 12:32.23 | stefan_schmidt | raster: Just let us know what you plan. |
| 12:32.42 | alphaone | Yeah, ikea here is same as in germany :-) |
| 12:35.57 | awesomo | got morning |
| 12:36.01 | awesomo | good morning |
| 12:36.25 | alphaone | got milk? :-) |
| 12:36.30 | awesomo | heh. |
| 12:36.54 | awesomo | what do you recommend as the best sim-airtime provider if i want to get one without a plan |
| 12:37.03 | awesomo | just for openmoko dev |
| 12:38.00 | *** join/#openmoko bentob0x (n=laurent@ip-213-49-73-152.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 12:39.26 | alphaone | Depends on which country you live in :-) |
| 12:39.40 | alphaone | I only know stuff about germany |
| 12:44.19 | mickeyl | abraxa_: are you hardcoding pulsesink in your pipeline nowadays? |
| 12:45.26 | linux-bastler | Does anybody know if there is somebody who will make a Neo-reselling in Germany? |
| 12:45.56 | *** join/#openmoko mypapit (n=mypapit@pdpc/supporter/active/mypapit) |
| 12:48.02 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (n=fredsiba@p549504A0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 12:48.11 | linux-bastler | Or what's if the Neo-Hardware is broken and I bought it in a foreign country? I mean how warranty will be handled |
| 12:48.25 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03laforge * r3159 10/trunk/doc/hardware/GTA02v3/gpio.txt: nGCS3 is now the second chip select for the NOR chip |
| 12:48.34 | kristian-m | mickeyl http://users.ictp.it/~radionet/ghana1998/GPS/PAGE15.HTM points out, that gps gives us atomic accuracy - that even better than DCF77 - it should be considered to sync the clock then :-) - shell I try to write a time-panel to show up on click to the panel-clock? |
| 12:49.00 | cb22_ | yeah, gps synced clock would be nice |
| 12:49.12 | stefan_schmidt | bbiab |
| 12:50.08 | SpeedEvil | It syncs the clock. |
| 12:50.14 | SpeedEvil | It does not set TZ |
| 12:50.14 | abraxa_ | mickeyl: Yes, because we're not using gconf to configure gstreamer and it uses alsasink by default |
| 12:50.21 | *** join/#openmoko Fradeve (n=fradeve@host102-83-dynamic.181-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 12:50.26 | kristian-m | SpeedEvil right |
| 12:50.34 | cb22_ | SpeedEvil, that would be easy to sort out |
| 12:50.37 | cb22_ | it is a GPS :) |
| 12:50.41 | kristian-m | SpeedEvil that'll have to be set by the user |
| 12:50.50 | SpeedEvil | kristian-m: maybe. |
| 12:50.51 | cb22_ | kristian-m, why not just get the user's position? |
| 12:50.59 | SpeedEvil | kristian-m: that's not the right way - which is more complex. |
| 12:51.00 | cb22_ | and set it accordingly? |
| 12:51.05 | SpeedEvil | Something like TZwiki |
| 12:51.15 | kristian-m | cb22_ this would need a database ot timezones |
| 12:51.24 | SpeedEvil | With a way for the phone to pickup changes. |
| 12:51.25 | cb22_ | but isn't there one? |
| 12:51.30 | SpeedEvil | (legislative changes) |
| 12:51.46 | kristian-m | does osm have these infos? |
| 12:51.54 | cb22_ | i always see maps with the timezones separated |
| 12:53.05 | Maledictus | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Timezones_optimized.png |
| 12:53.21 | Maledictus | It isn't that much data I think |
| 12:53.33 | kristian-m | hmm however we don't even have a time-adjust-gui at all yet |
| 12:53.44 | kristian-m | Maledictus thx |
| 12:54.19 | cb22_ | Maledictus, @ freebsd, just tried it out in qemu |
| 12:54.30 | cb22_ | do we know that the kernel is booting, but cannot access it? |
| 12:54.49 | Maledictus | it's kindof booting |
| 12:54.50 | cb22_ | or is the kernel just not booting |
| 12:55.09 | cb22_ | kindof? |
| 12:55.30 | Maledictus | The machine dependent initialization of the hardware is not written yet |
| 12:56.08 | Maledictus | and there is no way to see any output so we don't know where it crashes |
| 12:56.15 | cb22_ | ah right |
| 12:56.30 | cb22_ | maybe looking at netbsd's ssio would be a good idea? |
| 12:56.40 | cb22_ | (IIRC) |
| 12:56.58 | Maledictus | but as long as initarm() isn't correct there won't be any real progress on other things. |
| 12:57.35 | Maledictus | I looked at netbsds sscom driver but it's kinda big. When I can find the time I try to port it to freebsd. |
| 12:57.43 | cb22_ | cool |
| 12:57.49 | cb22_ | i wish i knew c :( |
| 12:57.50 | xyzzy_bill | Hey, guys. I'm just starting to try and figure out how to best do development for the NEO1973. I'm guessing that it's easier to do dev work on the emulator, rather than the phone. I'm running qemu, and that's fine. I run Ubuntu (Fiesty x64). What tools would you guys recommend for dev/debug? |
| 12:58.01 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03laforge * r3160 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-gta02.patch: add experimental (untested) GTA02v3 and GTA02v4 support to u-boot |
| 12:58.14 | Maledictus | this morning I got mail from a netbsd guy who booted completly into netbsd, mounting a root image from memory disk |
| 12:58.49 | Maledictus | So next thing for netbsd is trying to access a sd card |
| 12:58.56 | cb22_ | wow, nice |
| 12:59.52 | Maledictus | netbsd works really great. It was a matter of changing a few config files to port it. because netbsd already had support for the s3c2410 chip |
| 13:00.04 | Maledictus | for freebsd it's not that simple :( |
| 13:00.08 | cb22_ | yeah, what did you base this one on? |
| 13:00.28 | cb22_ | at91? |
| 13:00.37 | Maledictus | yep |
| 13:00.58 | cb22_ | maybe it would be a good idea to talk to the freebsd -arm guys? |
| 13:01.35 | Maledictus | I do :) |
| 13:01.49 | cb22_ | nice |
| 13:01.56 | cb22_ | well, i cant wait :) |
| 13:02.01 | mickeyl | kristian-m: sounds interesting. sure, go for it. |
| 13:02.23 | cb22_ | will be interesting triple booting :) |
| 13:02.29 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@introspect.com) |
| 13:02.30 | Maledictus | I could dance all day that this evil gps chip will be gone in gta02 :D |
| 13:02.40 | cb22_ | hehe, ya |
| 13:02.49 | Maledictus | triple? |
| 13:02.57 | cb22_ | free, net, linux |
| 13:03.01 | cb22_ | for the fun of it |
| 13:03.13 | Maledictus | yop. I will do so too |
| 13:03.22 | cb22_ | you waiting for 02 to come out? |
| 13:04.48 | Maledictus | suer |
| 13:04.50 | Maledictus | sure |
| 13:05.21 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03laforge * r3161 10/trunk/doc/hardware/GTA02v4/ (. gpio.txt): add GTA02v4 GPIO definitions |
| 13:05.30 | cb22_ | gta02v4 made? |
| 13:08.05 | xyzzy_bill | Hey, since we're talking about GPS, it sure would be cool to have a way to auto-update an open-source map like http://www.openstreetmap.org using our phone data. |
| 13:08.35 | cb22_ | yeah, a zero work way |
| 13:08.40 | cb22_ | you leave your GPS on |
| 13:08.44 | cb22_ | it logs the positions |
| 13:08.46 | cb22_ | and uploads it |
| 13:08.50 | cb22_ | then someone else can enter names |
| 13:08.56 | Maledictus | sure that would be cool. but it is a hard problem to solve |
| 13:09.05 | xyzzy_bill | Why's it hard? |
| 13:09.27 | Maledictus | to many points to list. |
| 13:09.38 | SpeedEvil | It's not. |
| 13:09.41 | SpeedEvil | You decimate. |
| 13:09.47 | xyzzy_bill | Frankly, it sounds fun. |
| 13:09.55 | SpeedEvil | Throw away 99.9% of points. |
| 13:10.00 | SpeedEvil | Do the computation on those |
| 13:10.04 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@p508DAC52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 13:10.05 | SpeedEvil | te rest |
| 13:10.12 | Maledictus | SpeedEvil: do you implement it? |
| 13:10.16 | SpeedEvil | No |
| 13:10.18 | cb22_ | can OSM do directions? |
| 13:10.19 | SpeedEvil | I mean in theory |
| 13:10.25 | SpeedEvil | cbv: no |
| 13:10.29 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: no |
| 13:10.29 | xyzzy_bill | what's OSM? |
| 13:10.33 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: Not yet at least |
| 13:10.36 | SpeedEvil | Open Street Map |
| 13:10.38 | xyzzy_bill | oh.. duh |
| 13:10.41 | cb22_ | heh |
| 13:11.24 | xyzzy_bill | As it turns out, I'm a router guy... if there were an open-source database of actual GPS data, I'd enjoy munging it into an automatic directions program. |
| 13:11.30 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: there are thingies that let you use the OSM data for routing - but they are a bit primitive at the moment. It is I think possible to load it into |
| 13:11.36 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: some garmin devices |
| 13:11.47 | SpeedEvil | xyzzy_bill: GPS data isn't helpful. |
| 13:11.56 | xyzzy_bill | why? |
| 13:12.04 | SpeedEvil | xyzzy_bill: You have no metadata |
| 13:12.18 | cb22_ | aren't they allowed to use yahoo images to fill in things? |
| 13:12.22 | SpeedEvil | xyzzy_bill: You don't know if the track is a truck, a car, a bike, or a pedestiran. |
| 13:12.25 | Maledictus | "Dear moko user, would you now please enter the name of this street?" |
| 13:12.26 | abraxa_ | mickey|mpc2500: Are there any issues with hardcoding it since you asked? |
| 13:12.36 | SpeedEvil | xyzzy_bill: see [[openstreetmap]] on the wiki |
| 13:12.43 | xyzzy_bill | I wont have street names, but given the speed, I think I can tell what's a car. |
| 13:12.56 | SpeedEvil | Maledictus: that too |
| 13:12.59 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AEB24.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:13.58 | SpeedEvil | Ingore the 99.9% line - mischan |
| 13:14.03 | xyzzy_bill | SpeedEvil: Thanks... just read the wiki page |
| 13:14.27 | SpeedEvil | And the linked ones - gps-trail I think |
| 13:14.37 | *** join/#openmoko vivijim (n=vivijim@86.115.13.57) |
| 13:15.35 | SpeedEvil | In the US and NL there should soon be pretty complete maps in NL |
| 13:15.39 | SpeedEvil | In the US and NL there should soon be pretty complete maps in OSM |
| 13:16.06 | SpeedEvil | as the Tiger data import from the US gov is completing, and the AND data for NL has completed. |
| 13:16.32 | *** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@mathias.residence.ens-lyon.fr) |
| 13:16.50 | xyzzy_bill | SpeedEvil: That's awesome. |
| 13:18.02 | DukeOfURL | SpeedEvil: when you went driving with your Neo and the gllin replacement, where, physically, did you locate the Neo? |
| 13:18.02 | DukeOfURL | dashboard? |
| 13:18.20 | Maledictus | Are the public funded maps in the public domain in NL? |
| 13:18.51 | Shoragan | mickeyl, ping? |
| 13:20.10 | abraxa_ | Shoragan: Seems like he wants to be creative away from the compy ;) |
| 13:20.23 | Shoragan | hmm |
| 13:20.24 | SpeedEvil | DukeOfURL: yes |
| 13:20.39 | SpeedEvil | DukeOfURL: it was not fixed - it may work better with a more 'upright' mount |
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| 13:23.00 | *** join/#openmoko CVirus (n=GoD@82.201.222.194) |
| 13:24.10 | linux-bastler | I think a application for live tagging Tracks would be good. So the co-driver can make tracks with tags while driving |
| 13:24.34 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - there need to be several apps. |
| 13:24.50 | SpeedEvil | On hyper-light-weight one that can sit in the background and maybe take notes at most |
| 13:24.54 | Stephmw | have you got any more pretty graphs on the gps accuracy? |
| 13:24.59 | SpeedEvil | One heavyweight mappers. |
| 13:25.02 | SpeedEvil | One heavyweight mapper. |
| 13:25.29 | SpeedEvil | With full editing and photogeotagging support. |
| 13:26.00 | SpeedEvil | One routing program with capabilities to add tags |
| 13:26.31 | SpeedEvil | The hope is that most users will install the really lightweight thing and keep it running. |
| 13:26.43 | linux-bastler | yeah, this ideas sounds good |
| 13:27.12 | SpeedEvil | And it then uploads anonymised tracks to the OSM server after a time delay, with configurable 'blank' spots where the user lives. |
| 13:27.16 | xyzzy_bill | It turns out that my Dad is into GPS programming... http://jdmcox.com/ |
| 13:27.19 | cb22_ | oh, btw, sdhc has been confirmed working on the neo? |
| 13:27.23 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: yes |
| 13:27.26 | xyzzy_bill | He wrote USAPhotoMaps |
| 13:27.26 | cb22_ | nice |
| 13:27.31 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: someone had a 6G card working |
| 13:27.35 | cb22_ | cool |
| 13:27.40 | cb22_ | my 4gb should work fine then |
| 13:27.47 | cb22_ | coupled with my spare p990 for 3g |
| 13:27.54 | xyzzy_bill | any reason to thing that 8gb cards wont work? |
| 13:28.00 | linux-bastler | And I wait for a bicycle holder for the neo which replaces my Garmin |
| 13:28.10 | cb22_ | linux-bastler, heh so do i |
| 13:28.21 | SpeedEvil | xyzzy_bill: Just that there are none at the moment. |
| 13:28.47 | xyzzy_bill | My neo comes tomorrow. That'll be the first thing I try. |
| 13:29.02 | cb22_ | xyzzy_bill, not very patient ey? |
| 13:29.45 | xyzzy_bill | cb22_: Nope :-D Lack of patience has been pointed out as a character flaw since I was 2 years old. |
| 13:29.51 | cb22_ | hehe |
| 13:30.08 | cb22_ | its so tempting just to buy one now |
| 13:31.00 | xyzzy_bill | cb22_: Fortunately, it looks just like the gta01, right? I'll just sneak it on a credit card (I pay the bills), and my wife will never know about the upgrade... |
| 13:31.07 | cb22_ | hehe |
| 13:31.31 | cb22_ | xyzzy_bill, what was your order # btw? |
| 13:32.11 | xyzzy_bill | cb22_: #7089 |
| 13:32.14 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AEB24.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:33.18 | SpeedEvil | xyzzy_bill: One or both of the buttons are transparent. |
| 13:33.37 | SpeedEvil | xyzzy_bill: or translucent. I think that's the only visible difference. |
| 13:34.32 | cb22_ | both AFAIK |
| 13:34.33 | *** join/#openmoko Heretic_07 (i=pIRCuser@213.228.126.172) |
| 13:34.35 | cb22_ | and they have LEDs |
| 13:34.55 | *** join/#openmoko MeTa (n=khmhm@dsl51B69EC3.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 13:35.00 | SpeedEvil | Do youi know if the LEDs are connected to the PMU LED controls, or the CPU? |
| 13:35.08 | Heretic_07 | #wikipedia-ru |
| 13:35.19 | cb22_ | don't suppose someone here knows exactly how many phones have been sold? |
| 13:35.24 | cb22_ | SpeedEvil, not sure |
| 13:41.22 | Vegar | is that new GPS chip Galileo capable? |
| 13:41.32 | SpeedEvil | Vegar: no |
| 13:41.41 | linux-bastler | so many people are talking about a allways running GPS-Tracker. Doesn't make this the battery becoming empty frequently? |
| 13:41.51 | SpeedEvil | Vegar: given that there is one (1) Gallileo test satellite up, it's quite irreelevant. |
| 13:41.52 | cb22_ | the new gps drains 62mw... |
| 13:41.55 | SpeedEvil | linuxperv: optional |
| 13:42.01 | SpeedEvil | linux-bastler: optional |
| 13:42.11 | cb22_ | SpeedEvil, really, work on your tab skills :) |
| 13:42.15 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: plus the CPU. You're looking at 100mW or so. |
| 13:42.25 | cb22_ | so many goddamed linux* people here! |
| 13:42.29 | SpeedEvil | People need to pick more sensible differentiated names. |
| 13:42.42 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: at best |
| 13:42.58 | SpeedEvil | Vegar: galileo won't be operational for >>5 years |
| 13:43.14 | linux-bastler | SpeedEvil: I'm not so creative, so my name isn't so special *g* |
| 13:43.14 | Vegar | SpeedEvil: well.. yeah |
| 13:43.23 | Vegar | SpeedEvil: but that wasn't my question |
| 13:43.37 | cb22_ | <Vegar> is that new GPS chip Galileo capable? |
| 13:43.39 | cb22_ | <SpeedEvil> Vegar: no |
| 13:44.05 | linux-bastler | And off course, If the phone is in a trouser pocket or something like this |
| 13:44.13 | SpeedEvil | Debatably GLONASS might be of use. |
| 13:44.32 | SpeedEvil | linux-bastler: the phone actually gets position okay in a pocket. |
| 13:44.52 | *** join/#openmoko openfanss (n=df@218.79.144.247) |
| 13:45.25 | Shoragan | SpeedEvil, i've got the oabi gllin running without a chroot :) |
| 13:46.56 | Sup3rkiddo | is flashing the image for the local qemu still broker |
| 13:46.59 | SpeedEvil | With GPRS up and running you can do stupid stuff like: |
| 13:47.19 | cb22_ | why would you want glonass? |
| 13:47.28 | SpeedEvil | tail -f /tmp/nmea|ssh server cat >/tmp/nmea |
| 13:47.34 | Vegar | cb22_: for better accuracy |
| 13:47.52 | SpeedEvil | And then that lets you run GPSd on that named pipe on your server |
| 13:47.53 | cb22_ | isn't it just russian gps |
| 13:48.08 | SpeedEvil | and treat it as a 'local' GPS, though it's roaming. |
| 13:48.20 | SpeedEvil | cb22_: it can sort-of be used as extra GPS satellites. |
| 13:48.48 | SpeedEvil | Especially useful in poor satelltie visibility conditions. |
| 13:49.06 | linux-bastler | SpeedEvil: Oh, that's nice. I don't thought this would work because my Garmin eTrex Venture Cx is working pretty good if I use it on my bicycle or I keep it in my hand. But in a pocket it can't find enough satellites |
| 13:49.58 | SpeedEvil | You will lose accuracy a bit. |
| 13:50.32 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89 (n=ewanm89@134.219.164.189) |
| 13:50.41 | cb22_ | SpeedEvil, according to wikipedia, it has 25% coverage of the world? |
| 13:50.53 | linux-bastler | SpeedEvil: That's clear to me |
| 13:51.44 | Vegar | what about WAAS/EGNOS? The new chip supports those |
| 13:54.08 | *** join/#openmoko ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 13:54.15 | mickey|mpc2500 | abraxa_: no issues. just thinking about whether i should make pulsesink/src the default via gconftool or not. |
| 13:54.19 | mickey|mpc2500 | Shoragan: pong |
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| 13:56.18 | abraxa_ | mickey|mpc2500: Yes, that would be nice as it affects all gstreamer apps then |
| 13:57.18 | mickey|mpc2500 | abraxa_: ok, i'll do that then |
| 13:57.19 | abraxa_ | mickey|mpc2500: I would also like this because then we can set a nice buffer-/latency-time globally instead of having the apps hardcode it |
| 13:57.29 | abraxa_ | (see mailing list post I showed you) |
| 13:57.50 | mickey|mpc2500 | ah right. i kept meaning to ask you about the mailing list |
| 13:57.59 | mickey|mpc2500 | do you have the link offhand? |
| 13:58.04 | mickey|mpc2500 | i forgot to bookmark it |
| 13:58.47 | Henryk | kristian-m: yeah, gllin already can set the system time from gps time (and I think even does this by default) (just reading scrollback buffer) |
| 13:59.12 | abraxa_ | mickey|mpc2500: https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2007-July/000557.html |
| 14:00.00 | mickey|mpc2500 | right, thanks |
| 14:00.20 | Henryk | And yes, a lightweight OpenStreetMap assistance application is something I really want for my neo and would be willing to code once I have enough time. What I basically want is: List all existing ways nearby, show and record my gps location, show ways that already have a name and those that don't, then allow me to enter names for the latter |
| 14:01.07 | abraxa_ | mickey|mpc2500: Also, I guess I'll just submit the libgstmad patch to OE. Originally I wanted to wrap it up together with patches to libgstivorbis but the latter will require some more effort to trim back to 16 bit (which I didn't get the chance to do yet) |
| 14:04.55 | DukeOfURL | after making openmoko-devel-image, the rootfs is the same file size as a few days ago. is my $OM broken, or have there not been any changes? |
| 14:05.55 | *** part/#openmoko linux-bastler (n=linux-ba@p5B12F1F4.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:06.21 | mickey|mpc2500 | abraxa_: right |
| 14:08.53 | abraxa_ | DukeOfURL: Did you do "make update"? |
| 14:09.05 | DukeOfURL | abraxa_: yes |
| 14:09.24 | DukeOfURL | make update-makefile;make setup;make update;make openmoko-devel-image |
| 14:09.34 | *** join/#openmoko ebel (n=rory@213-202-145-13.bas502.dsl.esat.net) |
| 14:10.34 | abraxa_ | DukeOfURL: Sounds good to me, so you should be set |
| 14:10.57 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@139.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 14:11.10 | DukeOfURL | haven't seen any recompiles in several days, so I think something is broken here |
| 14:11.38 | xyzzy_bill | Hey. I'm just doing my first local-overlay, following directions on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Application_Development_Crash_Course#Setting_Up_a_Local_Overlay |
| 14:11.50 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@c-98-199-135-173.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 14:12.07 | xyzzy_bill | This line in the tutorial fails for me: # cd build ; . ../setup-env ; bitbake scaredycat-openmoko-devel-image |
| 14:12.29 | xyzzy_bill | (where scaredycat is replaced with xyzzy_bill) |
| 14:12.46 | xyzzy_bill | I get: ERROR: BBFILE_PATTERN_upstream not defined |
| 14:12.46 | xyzzy_bill | ERROR: BBFILE_PATTERN_local not defined |
| 14:13.20 | xyzzy_bill | then, I get ERROR: No providers of build target xyzzy_bill-openmoko-devel-image (for []) |
| 14:13.52 | xyzzy_bill | This is probably pretty basic stuff, but I'm lost. Any ideas? |
| 14:16.24 | DukeOfURL | xyzzy_bill source setup-env? |
| 14:16.54 | DukeOfURL | printenv? |
| 14:17.43 | xyzzy_bill | DukeOfURL: You want me to dump my env here? It's about a page long. And, did you want to see my setup-env file, or should I re-execute it? |
| 14:18.14 | DukeOfURL | no, just wondering if you got the environment variables... |
| 14:19.22 | *** join/#openmoko Cap_J_L_Picard (n=ewanm89@134.219.164.234) |
| 14:19.28 | DukeOfURL | try bitbake psplash -c rebuild to check if the environment is ok |
| 14:21.45 | *** join/#openmoko tholin (n=tholin@85.8.6.155.static.se.wasadata.net) |
| 14:22.28 | xyzzy_bill | DukeOfURL: Thanks... executing that now (in $OMDIR) |
| 14:22.54 | DukeOfURL | should execute it in build |
| 14:22.56 | *** join/#openmoko herbyle (n=pascal@p54A37D87.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:23.22 | xyzzy_bill | DukeOfURL: ok, I'm doing it in build now |
| 14:25.58 | Henryk | in $OMDIR you do make, in build you do . ../setup-env then bitbake |
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| 14:28.48 | abraxa_ | mickey|mpc2500: http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3155 - for when you have the time to commit it |
| 14:31.20 | xyzzy_bill | DukeOfURL: Looks like the problem was my name: xyzzy_bill. The '_' I put in the various config files and file names seems to have messed things up. Just using xyzzybill seems to work better. |
| 14:31.55 | xyzzy_bill | DukeOfURL: Thanks for your help! |
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| 14:39.11 | SpeedEvil | ner: so you want it to be what - 3000 pages? |
| 14:39.13 | SpeedEvil | oops |
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| 15:06.39 | johnnyboy | hello everyone |
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| 15:07.20 | Henryk | xyzzy_bill: ah, yes. _ is special in bitbake for overrides :) |
| 15:08.32 | johnnyboy | i was wondering if i could waste a moment of your time? |
| 15:09.18 | rwhitby | you already have, by asking to ask instead of just asking ;-) |
| 15:09.40 | rwhitby | (just kidding, whassup?) |
| 15:10.18 | johnnyboy | I am looking at the Neo1973 I can not develop on it at this time as i am a student.. but i want to buy it now and am wondering how well it works as a phone... i looked at the site and it says developer only. |
| 15:10.25 | SpeedEvil | Not. |
| 15:10.36 | SpeedEvil | Some of the more recent builds may actually place calls. |
| 15:10.47 | rwhitby | And you can develop on it using the emulator or even host compilation. |
| 15:11.02 | SpeedEvil | But, as a functioning phone, a nokia 1100 beats it every way and is 1/10th the price. |
| 15:11.22 | johnnyboy | yeah i am returning an iphone today |
| 15:11.33 | johnnyboy | can't stand the closed software policy |
| 15:12.57 | *** join/#openmoko joao__ (n=joao@35-165.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 15:13.01 | johnnyboy | Well I thank you all for your time... I wish you well with the project and may opt in later on |
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| 15:14.01 | rwhitby | have fun johnnyboy |
| 15:14.13 | johnnyboy | thx you 2 |
| 15:16.11 | wansti | or none at all :-) |
| 15:17.15 | abraxa_ | That would be in ideal world - can't ask for that, can we? ;) |
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| 15:21.48 | cb22_ | yeah, same rwhitby |
| 15:21.57 | cb22_ | it cant send stuff via bt. *lol* |
| 15:22.10 | cb22_ | iphone user: hey guess what, i can pinch my screen |
| 15:22.15 | cb22_ | neo user: i can use bluetooth |
| 15:22.17 | Stephmw | lots of US phones have similar restrictions with BT though |
| 15:22.18 | cb22_ | *owned* |
| 15:22.30 | cb22_ | yes, the US tends to be fucked in that regard |
| 15:22.54 | *** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 15:22.56 | AntonTakk | om build worked :) |
| 15:22.56 | Stephmw | rwhitby: the iphone doesn't take kindly to viewing a large photo in the browser... the one I tried died after loading about 10% of my panorama |
| 15:22.58 | rwhitby | yeah, I expected there would be a whole lot of tiny little frustrations with it. but most people don't know any better - I bet that 90% of phones with BT never exercise that functionality anyway. |
| 15:23.17 | Stephmw | rwhitby: ... then again so did the N95 I tried too :) |
| 15:23.22 | cb22_ | the iphone will not do well in SA if it cant send stuff via bt... |
| 15:23.23 | cb22_ | believe me |
| 15:23.34 | cb22_ | at least in the 14->26 year old age |
| 15:23.48 | rwhitby | the subset of the population which actually knows about technology is very small. remember that 50% of the population are below average intelligence (by definition) |
| 15:23.55 | rwhitby | (and they still buy phones) |
| 15:23.56 | Stephmw | the 14-22 range in the UK seems to only want to use their phones as 80s-style boom boxes |
| 15:24.20 | cb22_ | here the whole rage is transferring stuff |
| 15:25.20 | Henryk | yes, the phone-as-boom-box boom seems to have started here too in the last 2 months or so |
| 15:26.15 | Stephmw | aye, Sugababes on tinny crap speakers really makes people Kool. Not. |
| 15:26.16 | Henryk | (I'm always tempted to take out my neo and blast these guys away ...) |
| 15:26.39 | Stephmw | Henryk: your neo doubles as a lightsaber or just a general-purpose EMP device? |
| 15:26.49 | Stephmw | hey mickeyl |
| 15:27.53 | Stephmw | and hrw |
| 15:27.58 | Henryk | Stephmw: only as a rather powerful electrodynamic air pressure wave generator. oh, and I have just the right recording on it (Vivaldis Four Seasons, The Summer, Third Part) |
| 15:28.02 | mickeyl | hi Stephmw |
| 15:28.23 | AntonTakk | ok, as I understand this, if I want to try building an app from oe to use on om, i would download the necesesary bitbake files for that app and it's deps, and do bitbake app.bb? |
| 15:29.11 | rwhitby | AntonTakk: use the MokoMakefile, then bitbake the app (if it's already in openembedded) |
| 15:29.18 | hrw | morning |
| 15:29.35 | rwhitby | or make build-package-<app> while you read the bitbake manual to learn how to use bitbake directly. |
| 15:29.37 | AntonTakk | use the mokomakefile how? |
| 15:29.49 | rwhitby | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile |
| 15:30.13 | AntonTakk | yeah, i already built an om image with the makefile |
| 15:30.40 | rwhitby | then you're all set - just "make build-package-<foo>" or use the direct bitbake commands (that's described in that wiki page too) |
| 15:31.12 | AntonTakk | so make build-package-foo will download the bb files and such? |
| 15:31.26 | Henryk | AntonTakk: they are already downloaded |
| 15:31.31 | rwhitby | you already have the bb file in your checkout that built the image |
| 15:31.32 | AntonTakk | ah |
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| 15:31.43 | AntonTakk | that's the part i was missing, thanks |
| 15:31.50 | rwhitby | np, have fun. |
| 15:32.13 | abraxa_ | AntonTakk: Just FYI - you can find them in openembedded/packages/ |
| 15:32.39 | AntonTakk | cool, thanks |
| 15:32.41 | wansti | damn... i'm having my keyboard switched on and ready next to my computer all day, in case a nice melody comes to my mind... and all i'm playing is the Zelda theme... |
| 15:32.46 | rwhitby | AntonTakk: and it is worthwhile learning how to use bitbake directly |
| 15:34.24 | abraxa_ | wansti: There could be worse. Playing "Barbie Girl", for example. |
| 15:35.22 | wansti | abraxa_: you got a point there :-) |
| 15:35.39 | Stephmw | must. gouge. out. brain. Aaaaaaargh· |
| 15:35.41 | wansti | still i was hoping for something that lets me choose a license :-) |
| 15:36.06 | abraxa_ | Hehe |
| 15:36.11 | *** part/#openmoko Elessar_81 (n=andreas@p5B05BFBE.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:37.03 | abraxa_ | I love how it's sunday afternoon and I see so many people working and being productive |
| 15:38.39 | Stephmw | gotta *look* productive, otherwise we'd be doing housework with the wives :) |
| 15:39.09 | *** join/#openmoko cb22__ (n=cb22@dsl-245-147-25.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 15:39.45 | abraxa_ | And that's a bad thing? Last time I checked it's fun and provides its own special benefits *cough* ;) |
| 15:40.32 | abraxa_ | Yup, aside from being a nice change from compy work |
| 15:40.54 | mwester | Not to mention that pushing a vaccuum cleaner about is rather easier than many other tasks one might have to do... |
| 15:41.29 | Stephmw | time to check if this is the Twilight Zone |
| 15:42.38 | sagacis_ | My gsmd is still not working reliably. Am I missing any tricks, or are people just using the default build situation? |
| 15:42.40 | Henryk | someone should rewrite gsmd |
| 15:42.42 | *** join/#openmoko agoode (n=agoode@2001:4830:1633:0:212:3fff:fe70:6222) |
| 15:42.49 | sagacis_ | It works great from qpe... |
| 15:42.54 | sagacis_ | er, qtopia |
| 15:43.53 | mickeyl | so would you mind a 5MB gllin ipkg ? |
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| 15:44.50 | Sup3rkiddo | sagacis_, yesterdays worked like a charm |
| 15:44.56 | Sup3rkiddo | ..er..more or less |
| 15:45.05 | sagacis_ | I"m using yesterday's build |
| 15:45.09 | Sup3rkiddo | hmm |
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| 15:45.25 | sagacis_ | I always get errors on CFUN=1 or COPS |
| 15:45.39 | abraxa_ | mickeyl: 5MB for the oabi version+wrapper? |
| 15:45.52 | Sup3rkiddo | only thing borked in my case is the flashing local image to the qemu |
| 15:46.00 | mickeyl | abraxa_: yes |
| 15:46.05 | mickeyl | it's ugly as hell |
| 15:46.07 | mickeyl | but it works |
| 15:46.13 | sagacis_ | "this client has just vanished" is always the end of my gsm.log |
| 15:46.18 | abraxa_ | mickeyl: Sounds good to me - until eabi is out, thatis |
| 15:46.20 | abraxa_ | that is* |
| 15:46.25 | mickeyl | *nod* |
| 15:46.28 | Shoragan | mickeyl, but less ugly than chroot |
| 15:46.33 | mickeyl | Shoragan: absolutely |
| 15:46.39 | rwhitby | mickeyl: I'd want it |
| 15:46.45 | sagacis_ | mickeyl: I'd take any size of gllin |
| 15:46.46 | stefan_schmidt | ah, excellent food. |
| 15:46.56 | mickeyl | stefan_schmidt: is Sean anywhere near? |
| 15:46.58 | wansti | stefan_schmidt: what did you have? |
| 15:47.02 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: no |
| 15:47.10 | mickeyl | stefan_schmidt: k, nm. i'll write an emai |
| 15:47.19 | stefan_schmidt | wansti: Oldtimer Big mouth Burger with french fries |
| 15:47.29 | wansti | yay. a classic :-) |
| 15:47.32 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: better |
| 15:47.34 | Henryk | (but my neo only has 2.7 MB free) |
| 15:47.34 | Sup3rkiddo | ooo...greasy |
| 15:47.49 | sagacis_ | Henryk: You don't need the games... |
| 15:47.57 | stefan_schmidt | wansti: You know, I'm a bit difficult with food. And being in asia... |
| 15:48.06 | Henryk | sagacis: actually that's not the games but the mono i'm working with :) |
| 15:48.14 | stefan_schmidt | wansti: But I work on it. Already tried some spicy stuff |
| 15:48.30 | wansti | stefan_schmidt: yeah, better get used to it :-P |
| 15:48.35 | Sup3rkiddo | Henryk, cool, hows mono on the neo? |
| 15:48.43 | stefan_schmidt | wansti: :) |
| 15:48.49 | sagacis_ | Henryk: Ah, yes. Mono is pretty large. Can you move it to the sd card? |
| 15:48.53 | mwester | mickeyl: I'll take a 5MB gllin. |
| 15:49.11 | AntonTakk | aww. darn, edje failed to build :-\ |
| 15:49.20 | stefan_schmidt | wansti: It's a question of what. I mean alphaone already had chciken feed. But normally it is just a psychology problem |
| 15:49.30 | stefan_schmidt | psychological |
| 15:49.38 | stefan_schmidt | ~spell psychological |
| 15:49.44 | wansti | stefan_schmidt: wtf? chicken feed?! |
| 15:49.50 | alphaone | feet |
| 15:49.59 | stefan_schmidt | damn |
| 15:50.04 | wansti | ugh, that's even worse :-) |
| 15:50.11 | wansti | ...right? |
| 15:50.17 | Henryk | sagacis: in principle, yes. but for some frickin reason the sd card is formatted with vfat, so I created an ext3 fs in a image on the card and mount that with the loop device and that is ugly. (That was necessary when there was still a mono packaging bug which is now resolved and makes it possible to install everything that's necessary for me and still have ~3MB free) |
| 15:50.20 | stefan_schmidt | wansti: Ask him |
| 15:50.26 | alphaone | wansti: stefan_schmidt lost his ability to spell any word with more than three letters somewhere last night. |
| 15:50.28 | wansti | stefan_schmidt: i am :-P |
| 15:50.37 | sagacis_ | Henryk: I reformatted my sd card to ext3 |
| 15:50.43 | mickeyl | ~praise Shoragan ... he knows why |
| 15:50.43 | apt | All hail Shoragan ... he knows why! |
| 15:50.50 | wansti | alphaone: i assume the drinks were more to his taste thahn the food, then :-) |
| 15:51.02 | Henryk | Sup3rkiddo: does work, I even had a gtk sharp hello world running, oh and bless which is a gtk-sharp hex editor, though it was not too useful at 640x480 |
| 15:51.23 | stefan_schmidt | wansti: Just had taiwan beer. They serve it in a 1l bottle |
| 15:51.26 | Henryk | Sup3rkiddo: currently i'm pestered by https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=322722 which only occurs in some programs, such as the one i want to run |
| 15:51.26 | Sup3rkiddo | heh, nice... |
| 15:51.28 | BryceLeo | Henryk: how's the speed of trhat? |
| 15:51.29 | mickeyl | l8er |
| 15:51.39 | stefan_schmidt | bon appetit |
| 15:51.40 | Sup3rkiddo | mm..dosas rock |
| 15:51.43 | mickey|dinner | merci |
| 15:51.52 | wansti | stefan_schmidt: hehe |
| 15:51.59 | Sup3rkiddo | mickey|dinner, ask for dosas |
| 15:52.09 | mickey|dinner | ok |
| 15:52.33 | Henryk | BryceLeo: startup time is somewhat long but everything's mostly fluffy after that. too bad that there's no ahead-of-time compilation available for mono for arm |
| 15:52.57 | BryceLeo | yeah, that would be nice |
| 15:53.19 | mwester | BryceLeo: did you do any testing with kexec yet? |
| 15:54.20 | BryceLeo | mwester yeah, it's pretty neat, it really just takes out the bios step of the reboot. It still runs a full shutdown. And since my bios takes a full 2 seconds to post there's not a real benefit, but it is pretty neat |
| 15:55.14 | AntonTakk | BryceLeo: you were able to switch kernels with it? |
| 15:55.20 | BryceLeo | yup |
| 15:55.25 | AntonTakk | nice |
| 15:55.34 | mwester | On the neo, the hope would be for very fast crash recovery, assuming the drivers all behave. I've not tested beyond determining the need for the ARM ATAGs kexec patch. |
| 15:55.41 | BryceLeo | it was really cool |
| 15:56.07 | mwester | I also have a hack/patch that allows one to change the command line for the new kernel on ARM devices (neo) |
| 15:57.42 | BryceLeo | that's pretty sweet, mwester is it a kexec port, or a new method? |
| 15:58.37 | mwester | I just patched kexec. |
| 15:58.39 | cb22 | Sup3rkiddo, what are dosas? |
| 15:58.56 | abraxa_ | cb22: Indian pancakes/crepes |
| 15:59.03 | BryceLeo | ahh cool, sweet |
| 15:59.11 | mwester | Actually, it rather sidesteps kexec and twiddles the command line in the atags buffer directly, via sysfs. |
| 15:59.24 | *** join/#openmoko Cap_J_L_Picard (n=ewanm89@134.219.165.33) |
| 15:59.55 | Sup3rkiddo | cb22, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosa |
| 16:00.14 | mwester | The right way to do it would be to patch the kexec-tools userspace stuff, along with the kernel interface. I'll get to that, but since the sysfs technique works so well, there's a lack of urgency. Sure is nice for testing new kernels, though. |
| 16:02.12 | BryceLeo | heh, yeah mwester it should be convienent |
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| 16:15.10 | BryceLeo | bye all |
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| 16:46.02 | abraxa_ | guri_: Devirginate as in... flashing a rootfs? |
| 16:46.22 | guri_ | abraxa_, as in "start from scratch using the debug board" :( |
| 16:46.38 | guri_ | i have a fux0red uboot_env |
| 16:46.46 | abraxa_ | Ouchie |
| 16:46.55 | abraxa_ | I have no experience with that, sorry :( |
| 16:47.14 | guri_ | abraxa_, yup. and I'm proving to be a bit of an idiot generally.... |
| 16:47.52 | guri_ | "roh" got me as far as setting up with the board, but every time I look at the devirginate README i get scared/confused |
| 16:48.41 | Marcel_M | josch: http://celtune.morb-design.com/images/fic-gta01/Openmoko-celtune-custom-image-glibc-ipk-P1-Oktober-Snapshot-20071014-fic-gta01.rootfs.jffs2 |
| 16:48.56 | guri_ | but I was reading in the mail-digest today that someone in the US is in the same position but has no debug kit so I don't fell too bad ;) |
| 16:49.06 | Marcel_M | sorry |
| 16:49.07 | guri_ | s/fell/feel |
| 16:49.46 | Marcel_M | wrong tab |
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| 16:53.19 | guri_ | i think I will wait until I can contact Werner, as there's a good example config in the SVN from him....hmmmm |
| 16:55.03 | abraxa_ | guri_: If I were you I'd just try. There's virtually no way to screw it up more than it already is |
| 16:55.19 | *** join/#openmoko br3n (n=bren@79-65-203-245.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 16:55.49 | guri_ | abraxa_, true....just wondering if I should spend my only free night of the week doing that....or something less geekyu |
| 16:56.20 | abraxa_ | guri_: Do whatever makes you happy and smile :) |
| 16:57.42 | guri_ | from past experience, getting really drunk and *then* doing something all out is the best way....that's how I ended up one morning with an Ubuntu bootscreen and couldn't remember how ;) |
| 16:57.59 | abraxa_ | rofl |
| 16:58.22 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-085-216-001-036.hsi.kabelbw.de) |
| 16:58.36 | guri_ | and also how one morning UPS turned up with a box full of openmoko kit |
| 16:58.51 | guri_ | I had to check my credit card statement! |
| 16:59.02 | juri_ | the last time i did that, i was hacking kernel. and those patches were applied. you should be scared now. :) |
| 16:59.33 | abraxa_ | juri_: I guess you hit the Balmer curve while doing that |
| 16:59.53 | guri_ | juri_, i've done some of my "best" work drunk....so if you're gettng incorrect mobile settings in Belgium....I apologise |
| 17:00.02 | abraxa_ | (how the HECK people came up with that term to honor Balmer is *SO* beyond me) |
| 17:00.17 | guri_ | he deserves no honour! |
| 17:00.23 | juri_ | balmer is all about the developers, developers, developers, developers! |
| 17:00.24 | guri_ | wooden spoon |
| 17:00.24 | abraxa_ | Exactly! |
| 17:00.31 | abraxa_ | He doesn't! |
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| 17:04.04 | cesarb | guri_: can't you just overwrite the uboot-env with a working one via dfu? |
| 17:04.32 | guri_ | cesarb, unfortunately not. that's been tried too |
| 17:05.08 | guri_ | and all i *still* get is a pretty penguin image in the top left of screen and some unintelligible text :( |
| 17:05.22 | cesarb | guri_: not even the "boot" and "factory reset" options? |
| 17:05.33 | *** join/#openmoko LionKMP (n=lion@catv-5062642a.catv.broadband.hu) |
| 17:05.54 | guri_ | i get "Bad Magic Number" and an almost immediate power-off or back to bootscreen using "Factory Reset" |
| 17:06.13 | guri_ | was chatting to roh about this on Thursday and he suggested getting debug board setup |
| 17:06.15 | *** join/#openmoko Jumb0 (n=Jimmy@c-76-22-221-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 17:06.34 | cesarb | (random plug: I have a patch on bug 765 to add also "set console to usb" and others to that default menu, to help recovery in these situations. It only needs more testing before harald can add it to the build) |
| 17:06.42 | guri_ | I'm hoping it's not a serious hardware fault |
| 17:06.47 | Jumb0 | any big improvments to moko in the last week? |
| 17:06.55 | guri_ | cesarb, cool. that would be v. helpful |
| 17:07.21 | cesarb | guri_: dfu-util upload to a numbered (not named) partition doesn't work? |
| 17:07.25 | guri_ | I also noticed Harald pushing for a script today on the message list |
| 17:08.13 | cesarb | guri_: looks like I missed that message... do you have an archive link? |
| 17:08.19 | guri_ | ceasrb, again. tried that. I can sometimes use names but always using numbered for the last 2 attempts....better, but no cigar. Also have to spec -d(evice) |
| 17:08.36 | *** join/#openmoko heikkit (n=chatzill@c-67-188-122-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 17:08.41 | guri_ | cesarb, looking... |
| 17:09.23 | cesarb | guri_: truly a stick situation then... that's why we really need to add the "console to usb" and "console to serial" options to the hardcoded default menu |
| 17:09.41 | cesarb | guri_: since that would help recovery on almost all situations where you can get to the menu |
| 17:10.16 | guri_ | cesarb, erm....Vol4, issue 8. Message 4 (i think) |
| 17:11.09 | guri_ | cesarb, yes. that would be great! I have GTA1b4 and thought that's what the boot menu was *supposed* to look like. But after I flashed the rootfs I got this....and now no further |
| 17:11.30 | cesarb | guri_: btw, you don't really need to devirginate... if you have the debug board, you have the serial, which is enough to recover if you can get as far as the menu |
| 17:12.22 | cesarb | guri_: and it's way less complex to do than a full devirginate (which involves loading a bootstrap lowlevel setup, setting a breakpoint after it, loading uboot in memory, and releasing the breakpoint) |
| 17:12.59 | guri_ | cesarb, aha!.....so my first task is to eat, buy alcohol, drink until I remember how and what I want to do and then just start with flash boot, flash root/kernel!!! |
| 17:13.06 | cesarb | guri_: you just have to repartition, save the environment offset in the OOB data, and save the environment |
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| 17:14.24 | cesarb | guri_: or repartition, save the environment offset in the OOB data, dfu flash a working enviroment, and set the partitioning environment variable on it by hand |
| 17:15.39 | guri_ | cesarb, again I am in wonder at this channel!.....no (visible) trolls and lots of helpful people!!! I will see what I can achieve before deflowerment! |
| 17:16.15 | guri_ | I was aiming at application development, but seem to be getting into system development......gargh! |
| 17:16.19 | cesarb | guri_: it's usually that way on more technical channels |
| 17:16.28 | cesarb | guri_: hah, always happens |
| 17:16.46 | guri_ | thanks again.....back later (hopefully) |
| 17:16.47 | cesarb | guri_: I bought a new computer and installed ubuntu which "just works" so I wouldn't have to play with lowlevel stuff |
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| 17:16.59 | cesarb | guri_: ended up writing an ethernet driver for a counterfeit NIC |
| 17:17.18 | guri_ | cesarb, yeah, the old "contradiction in terms" with *nix ;) |
| 17:18.13 | guaqua | cesarb: :D |
| 17:19.15 | *** join/#openmoko PP|Spydon (n=lukas@h244n2c1o1036.bredband.skanova.com) |
| 17:19.39 | PP|Spydon | Does it have bluetooth? |
| 17:20.28 | wansti | today's creative output so far: http://wansti.homelinux.net/files/tmp/autumn_prelude.mp3 |
| 17:21.27 | SpeedEvil | It was murdered. |
| 17:21.51 | cesarb | PP|Spydon: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) |
| 17:22.04 | cesarb | PP|Spydon: (at least that's what the autogreet script should have said) |
| 17:22.12 | guaqua | wansti: interesting |
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| 17:22.41 | PP|Spydon | it didn't say anything about those pages :P |
| 17:22.51 | wansti | pretty simple, actually |
| 17:23.07 | PP|Spydon | YEEEEEEEHO it has bluetooth! |
| 17:23.16 | PP|Spydon | I was really scared for a while |
| 17:23.25 | guaqua | it? |
| 17:23.32 | guaqua | not a she or a he? :< |
| 17:23.39 | PP|Spydon | lol :P |
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| 17:47.17 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03laforge * r3162 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (4 files): re-sync our start.S changes with mainline u-boot |
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| 18:13.02 | abraxa_ | Oh man |
| 18:13.11 | abraxa_ | Theming GTK is such a royal pain in the arse |
| 18:13.15 | abraxa_ | *kicks it* |
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| 19:25.06 | Ghiottone | hello |
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| 19:26.16 | abraxa_ | Ellos |
| 19:26.31 | mypapit | ellos |
| 19:27.02 | bl4d3 | hi, |
| 19:27.30 | bl4d3 | anyone is having some problems with the gsmd??? |
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| 19:30.17 | bl4d3 | hello?? |
| 19:31.08 | sagacis_ | bl4d3: I am. |
| 19:31.08 | cdm | I think everyone is. |
| 19:31.42 | viq | Especially those who don't have Neo yet ;) |
| 19:31.59 | bl4d3 | do you have problems with gsmd?? |
| 19:32.01 | cdm | even those that do -- I know the guy that has one down the hall from me @ work can't make a call. |
| 19:32.18 | sagacis_ | I can't get it to start. |
| 19:33.08 | bl4d3 | my problem is that gsmd is not working when i activate the pin request |
| 19:33.26 | sagacis_ | I don't have a pin, but I get the same thing |
| 19:33.52 | sagacis_ | For a while, it would work if I put '/etc/init.d/gsmd restart' in /etc/matchbox/session before the dialer, but no longer. |
| 19:33.58 | *** join/#openmoko linux-bastler (n=linux-ba@p5B12F1F4.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:34.25 | sagacis_ | Heh. It worked this time, but I had to manually start it up. |
| 19:35.41 | sagacis_ | But crashed before dialing |
| 19:36.06 | bl4d3 | i've got the same problem... |
| 19:36.16 | Henryk | bl4d3: basically gsmd needs a rewrite. any volunteers? |
| 19:36.29 | sagacis_ | I'm considering it. |
| 19:36.34 | bl4d3 | me too |
| 19:36.36 | sagacis_ | I could write it in python! ;D |
| 19:36.53 | Writchie | i'm already rewriting it for d-bus |
| 19:37.06 | woglinde | we already have python gsmd bindings |
| 19:37.07 | woglinde | hehe |
| 19:37.17 | bl4d3 | C is the best way to do it |
| 19:37.20 | Henryk | sagacis: the most promising idea currently includes a rewrite in vala |
| 19:37.41 | *** join/#openmoko Orzech_ (n=Orzech@088156093250.wro.vectranet.pl) |
| 19:37.42 | Henryk | bl4d3: no, C is exactly not the best language, because gsmd included lots and lots of string handling |
| 19:37.48 | Orzech_ | Hi all! |
| 19:37.53 | sagacis_ | Writchie: Do you have code/patches shared somwhere? |
| 19:37.55 | woglinde | ljp hahahaaaa |
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| 19:38.11 | Writchie | not yet - i expect one or two weeks |
| 19:38.22 | Orzech_ | Did anybody encaunter any problems during Media Player startup on emulator? |
| 19:38.25 | sagacis_ | ljp, the qtopia is working well for me. It has some issues with the fact that I run it on the sd card with a symlink so I can't find songs, but it works as a phone. |
| 19:38.39 | sagacis_ | ljp, it still won't switch cells, tho |
| 19:38.58 | ljp | weird. I tested that and worked fine for me |
| 19:39.04 | Writchie | ljp: qt is completely unacceptable to those who need to be able to run proprietary software applications |
| 19:39.10 | sagacis_ | It looks like my problem is the openmoko dialer app. My gsmd isn't crashsing if I use libgsm-tool. |
| 19:39.17 | Henryk | gsm roaming is a function of the modem and should work regardless of the GUI |
| 19:39.18 | bl4d3 | if you use C you can improve the battery life |
| 19:39.27 | nbd | vala looks cool |
| 19:39.40 | *** join/#openmoko El_Salvador[Away (n=Brescia@adsl-ull-124-144.44-151.net24.it) |
| 19:39.53 | sagacis_ | Henryk, ljp, I assume it was cell (or band) switching. WHen driving, I get "No network available" every few miles. |
| 19:39.58 | Henryk | nbd: my thought exactly! |
| 19:40.19 | sagacis_ | When I walk out of my building at work (where there's a repeater), at about 50 meters, I lose the signal. |
| 19:40.23 | Writchie | sagacis_: t-mobile usa by any chance? |
| 19:40.26 | nbd | compiled OO without the crappiness of C++ |
| 19:40.27 | nbd | i like it |
| 19:40.28 | sagacis_ | Writchie: ATT |
| 19:40.44 | Writchie | lack of 850 is probably the cause. |
| 19:40.48 | univac | xcingular |
| 19:41.04 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AEB24.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:41.22 | Writchie | the only reasonably good mobile gsm coverage in US pretty much requires both 850 and 1900 |
| 19:41.24 | sagacis_ | Writchie: Maybe, but sometimes it works OK. It's all about transitions, unless every OTHER tower is 1900... |
| 19:41.55 | Writchie | sagacis_: when you roam outside of a 1900 cell you may need 850 for the gaps |
| 19:42.05 | sagacis_ | right. |
| 19:42.15 | Writchie | 1900 is really designed as a supplement for dense areas, not the primary coverage. |
| 19:42.39 | Writchie | a good 1900 networks requires 4 times as many towers |
| 19:42.41 | Writchie | as 850 |
| 19:43.01 | guaqua | 900 was the original |
| 19:43.04 | anrp | which is why t-mobile has lots of roaming agreements on 850 nets D: |
| 19:43.08 | guaqua | and it was more than fine for a long time |
| 19:43.11 | ljp | Writchie: wrong. |
| 19:43.46 | Writchie | ljp: what wrong |
| 19:43.52 | ljp | and who wants proprietary software on thei neo anyway |
| 19:43.54 | guaqua | Writchie: the ratio |
| 19:44.00 | SpeedEvil | ljp: I do. |
| 19:44.05 | Writchie | i do |
| 19:44.11 | SpeedEvil | ljp: I'd pay a moderate amount for tomtom |
| 19:44.12 | ljp | wrong about qt being unacceptable for proprietary software |
| 19:44.15 | CoreDump | me as well ;) (nav s/w) |
| 19:44.23 | guaqua | SpeedEvil: same |
| 19:44.23 | hrw | ljp: I do - navigation software |
| 19:44.29 | CoreDump | =D |
| 19:44.49 | ljp | ehhhh.. right. and no one can write a free navigation app hey |
| 19:44.59 | SpeedEvil | The problem isn't the app - it's the map |
| 19:45.08 | Henryk | a rhyme! |
| 19:45.20 | CoreDump | I'll go with the commercial package (w/ complete and sane maps) thanks |
| 19:45.24 | SpeedEvil | Openstreetmap is about the best you get. |
| 19:45.31 | hrw | ljp: openstreetmap lack coverage here |
| 19:45.31 | sagacis_ | Writchie: Ok, I'll buy that my problem is 850 band. That's a bummer. |
| 19:45.42 | hrw | SpeedEvil: I would prefer google maps rather |
| 19:45.46 | SpeedEvil | which will be good in a few months for the US, and now for NL |
| 19:45.52 | SpeedEvil | (there are compleete apps) |
| 19:45.57 | SpeedEvil | (there are compleete maps) |
| 19:46.00 | Writchie | sagacis-: i fully expect this will be fixed in a modem software release |
| 19:46.20 | Orzech_ | The problem is that I cannot run Media Player on emulator, and the only thing I can see is some dialog visible for very short period of time showing some text containing "pulseaudio" and "gstreamer". |
| 19:46.27 | sagacis_ | Writchie: Until then, I'll have to keep carrying my 3595 while driving. |
| 19:46.48 | Henryk | Orzech_: known problem, install gst-plugins-pulse |
| 19:46.53 | Writchie | sagacis_: older tribands vs. quadbands behave similarly |
| 19:47.02 | Henryk | Orzech_: not emulator-related |
| 19:47.02 | Orzech_ | Henryk, oks, thanks |
| 19:47.07 | Orzech_ | ok |
| 19:47.17 | Writchie | right now the neo is a triband (original definition 900/1800/1900) |
| 19:47.20 | sagacis_ | Writchie: I hadn't considered that a possibility before, but it seems obvious.... |
| 19:47.32 | sagacis_ | Writchie: And no 900 in my area. |
| 19:47.41 | Writchie | no 900 in US |
| 19:48.12 | anrp | er |
| 19:48.13 | Writchie | sagacis_: some people can receive inbound on 1900 but not originate unless 850 is present. |
| 19:48.18 | Henryk | yes, there was something about the modem in the neo being quad-band on paper but not really so. (e.g. you can use it with all four bands, but only three at a time without soldering) |
| 19:48.19 | anrp | wasn't it sold as quad? |
| 19:48.31 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 19:48.34 | buz | anrp: i thought so, too |
| 19:48.37 | Orzech_ | Henryk, will I be able to write audio player for OpenMoko? I mean, I'd like to write it as my Engineer Thesis and wonder, wether OM and itsAPI is mature enough... |
| 19:48.39 | Writchie | Henryk: that better not be the case. |
| 19:49.00 | Henryk | Orzech_: there already is an audio player |
| 19:49.02 | buz | and i could originate calls with my triband phone in the us just fine |
| 19:49.30 | Orzech_ | Henryk, ok, but I'd like to write my own... ;) |
| 19:49.59 | hrw|tv | Orzech_: you are studying on pwr? |
| 19:50.06 | Orzech_ | YEP :D |
| 19:50.18 | Orzech_ | hrw|tv, so are you? :) |
| 19:50.32 | hrw|tv | Orzech_: no |
| 19:50.44 | Orzech_ | hrw|tv, How did you guess then? |
| 19:50.45 | hrw|tv | Orzech_: find something better then audio player |
| 19:50.56 | Writchie | buz: not a problem in us - it was canada - rogers IIRC |
| 19:51.03 | hrw|tv | Orzech_: study + revdns in wrocław |
| 19:51.20 | Orzech_ | hrw|tv, nah, ofcource -.- |
| 19:51.25 | *** part/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@GMKLXVII.dsl.saunalahti.fi) |
| 19:51.25 | hrw|tv | Orzech_: create good video player maybe? |
| 19:51.36 | Orzech_ | hrw|tv, but whats wrong with audio player? |
| 19:51.46 | Henryk | hrw|tv: oh yes, I'd like to be able to play full hd h.264 on the neo! |
| 19:51.47 | Orzech_ | hrw|tv, I don't understand... |
| 19:52.43 | hrw|tv | Orzech_: there is one already ;) |
| 19:52.47 | *** join/#openmoko shenki|crank (n=joel@crank.laptop.org) |
| 19:53.04 | ljp | ya, choice is bad |
| 19:53.05 | hrw|tv | and writing audio player is quite easy today.. gstreamer do most of work.. |
| 19:53.50 | hrw|tv | ljp: he wants to write it as Engineer Thesis. audio player sounds like too easy for thesis ;) |
| 19:55.03 | Orzech_ | hrw|tv, But I don't care.. :) If I won't like it, there will be no problem with writing my own |
| 19:55.55 | Orzech_ | hrw|tv, besides, I like music more than movies :P |
| 19:56.08 | hrw|tv | ;) |
| 19:56.26 | hrw|tv | and more music fits on 1GB sdcard then movies ;) |
| 19:56.27 | ljp | hrw|tv: depends on if he wants to include writing codecs :) |
| 19:56.47 | hrw|tv | ljp: right! |
| 19:56.51 | Orzech_ | hrw|tv, ;) |
| 19:57.10 | hrw|tv | that would be interesting... mpeg audio, ogg, flac, sid, sap player written from scratch |
| 19:58.06 | Orzech_ | hrw|tv, however, if OM doesn't have video player, it would be nice idea to write one :) |
| 19:59.11 | Orzech_ | but nobody answered me, wether OM and its API are mature enough... while my main target will be to write app successfully, otherwise they won't give me Engineer title :D |
| 20:00.47 | ljp | use Qtopia. its mature |
| 20:00.52 | hrw|tv | Orzech_: learn MVC and write M and C. View will be last |
| 20:01.23 | *** join/#openmoko Orzech__ (n=Orzech@088156093250.wro.vectranet.pl) |
| 20:01.25 | hrw|tv | ljp: and this is #openmoko not #qtopia ;) |
| 20:01.31 | sannes | Where did you find serial number? my number is quite different .P |
| 20:01.32 | sannes | :P |
| 20:02.18 | ljp | openmoko is also distro |
| 20:02.24 | sannes | *lol* heh, non-"entered" talk in the pipeline, please ignore :P |
| 20:02.46 | ljp | besides, I dont see anywhere it says I cannot speak of qtopia |
| 20:03.00 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-162-36.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 20:05.27 | *** join/#openmoko matthew_ (n=matthew@adsl-80-33-240.sdf.bellsouth.net) |
| 20:05.34 | matthew_ | so, what is the current focus of development? |
| 20:05.35 | rwhitby | ljp: isn't qtopia just another rootfs on the openmoko kernel ? |
| 20:05.55 | rwhitby | (from the "why is it on topic here" point of view) |
| 20:06.34 | ScaredyCat | the rootfs is pretty similar |
| 20:07.18 | rwhitby | yeah, you could even say it's just like KDE and Gnome options when installing CentOS or Fedora ... |
| 20:09.52 | Writchie | rwhitby: i agree its like KDE vs. Gnome except for incompatible licensing on lower layers |
| 20:11.01 | *** join/#openmoko zmedico (n=zmedico@ip68-4-152-120.oc.oc.cox.net) |
| 20:11.08 | rwhitby | Writchie: you mean that the LGPL used by OpenMoko is not as free (in the FSF's definition of the word) as the GPL option of the Qtopia licensing ;-) |
| 20:11.13 | mjr | and except for the thing where qtopia doesn't use X so it's all or nothing |
| 20:11.16 | ScaredyCat | why do you think there's "licensing on lower layers" |
| 20:11.24 | *** join/#openmoko johnnyboy (i=johnnybo@c-68-82-15-162.hsd1.de.comcast.net) |
| 20:12.15 | ScaredyCat | neither the lgpl or gpl are free licences.. it would need to be somehting like bsd for that |
| 20:12.28 | rwhitby | ScaredyCat: right on! |
| 20:12.53 | rwhitby | ScaredyCat: actually, even BSD isn't free, cause I have to put that attribution in there don't I? |
| 20:13.12 | rwhitby | How about the new MIT license? |
| 20:13.16 | Writchie | rwhitby: the issue for me and some others is what non-gpl applications can be run/sold/developed/etc. on the platform |
| 20:13.37 | nbd | the only free license is public domain |
| 20:13.39 | nbd | :P |
| 20:13.44 | Writchie | lgpl allows that to happen. GPL does not. |
| 20:13.47 | cjb | One day, people will start to understand that when they say "free", they all mean different things, so they should just stop doing that. :) |
| 20:14.04 | rwhitby | Writchie: ah, but freedom to create non-free applications is a stated goal of OpenMoko |
| 20:14.05 | cjb | nbd: except in France |
| 20:14.19 | nbd | hehe |
| 20:14.20 | Writchie | rwhitby: exactly |
| 20:14.24 | cjb | nbd: which explicitly disallows you from giving up your copyright rights, so public domain is a noop. |
| 20:14.32 | ScaredyCat | mm.. mit , but bsd is freeer than gpl/lgpl |
| 20:14.44 | nbd | cjb: that's weird |
| 20:15.00 | rwhitby | nowhere is the stated goal of OpenMoko restricted to necessarily being able to do that without paying licensing fees |
| 20:15.11 | cjb | nbd: it's common in many duristictions, not just France. there are even some who claim that it's not possible in the US either. |
| 20:15.13 | nbd | ScaredyCat: imho one is more free and one leads to more free code |
| 20:15.28 | ScaredyCat | nbd: I agree... |
| 20:15.29 | cjb | because the US copyright law doesn't mention being able to put things into the public domain at all. it just says it's this place where expired works go. |
| 20:15.40 | Writchie | rwhitby: yes - trolltech can do what they like and charge whatever they like |
| 20:15.44 | cjb | yes: BSD gives personal freedom, GPL gives societal freedom. |
| 20:15.46 | ljp | mjr: same story about x using the framebuffer. its all or nothing |
| 20:15.55 | cjb | it's incredible that more people don't realize this. |
| 20:15.55 | ScaredyCat | but people say that gpl == freedom, when it doesn't |
| 20:16.08 | rwhitby | one can create commercial apps for OpenMoko with LGPL and one can create commercial apps for OpenMoko with Qtopia - the only difference is the control over the price you have to pay (and therefore pass on to the customer) |
| 20:16.25 | cjb | ScaredyCat: shrug. neither does BSD. they're all meaningless statements. |
| 20:16.41 | cjb | ScaredyCat: what you mean when you say that is "I prefer to lean towards individual freedom instead of group freedom". |
| 20:16.45 | ljp | gpl == free software |
| 20:16.51 | cjb | which is fine. but let's not say that neither is "free". |
| 20:16.52 | Writchie | rwhitby: exactly right - and some do not want to pay trolltech anymore than microsoft |
| 20:16.54 | ScaredyCat | 2 things |
| 20:16.57 | ScaredyCat | no ljp |
| 20:17.03 | rwhitby | ljp: Free(TM) software (trademarked by FSF) |
| 20:17.05 | ScaredyCat | and cjb no |
| 20:17.22 | rwhitby | Writchie: ah, microsoft is different, you don't get the source. |
| 20:17.30 | Writchie | rwhitby: or symbion |
| 20:17.43 | rwhitby | do you get the source for symbian? |
| 20:17.46 | Writchie | rwhitby: you can get the source from microsoft - that isn't the issue |
| 20:17.58 | rwhitby | Writchie: not under the GPL you can't |
| 20:18.01 | *** join/#openmoko doc|home (n=doc@gentoo/contributor/doc-007) |
| 20:18.03 | cjb | ScaredyCat: did you have a reason for disagreeing? |
| 20:18.15 | ScaredyCat | yes |
| 20:18.41 | ScaredyCat | <cjb> ScaredyCat: what you mean when you say that is "I prefer to lean towards individual freedom instead of group freedom". |
| 20:18.51 | ScaredyCat | is inaccurate |
| 20:18.57 | cjb | why? |
| 20:19.04 | matthew_ | so, what is the current focus of development? |
| 20:19.13 | ljp | also, commercial != proprietary |
| 20:19.18 | Writchie | "free" and "open source" have lost a lot meeting once the marketing pukes got involved |
| 20:19.19 | rwhitby | matthew_: licensing, obviously ;-) |
| 20:19.31 | nbd | yay, a GPL vs BSD flamewar. let's bring theo into this ;) |
| 20:19.33 | ScaredyCat | just because I said that I believe that the bsd licence is freeer does not mean "I prefer to lean towards individual freedom instead of group freedom" |
| 20:19.38 | Writchie | s/meeting/meaning/ |
| 20:19.38 | rwhitby | Writchie: "free" had meaning before the FSF got involved |
| 20:19.40 | cjb | but it does. |
| 20:19.48 | matthew_ | rwhitby: yeah, unfortunately i think you are right |
| 20:20.28 | ScaredyCat | no it doesn;t/.. |
| 20:20.31 | ScaredyCat | it's fact |
| 20:20.35 | cjb | ScaredyCat: the utopia of the GPL is that there is only free software, the utopia of BSD is that everyone gets to decide for themselves. you are saying that you care more about individuals making personal choices than about societies making group choices. |
| 20:20.42 | rwhitby | "Free(TM, FSF)" is a very specific meaning. "free" (without the TM) means different things to different people |
| 20:20.53 | cjb | ScaredyCat: asserting your disagreement without explanation is not very convcing. |
| 20:20.54 | ScaredyCat | the gpl has a larger set of requirements to be met |
| 20:20.59 | cjb | yes. |
| 20:21.09 | cjb | because it is trying to do something harder than individual freedom. |
| 20:21.25 | cjb | it's trying to construct a society of freedom. of course that involves a larger set of requirements. |
| 20:21.25 | ScaredyCat | bsd basically says do whatever, keep attribtion |
| 20:21.29 | rwhitby | So LPGL and qtopia are open source. microsoft and symbian (as far as I know) are not. |
| 20:21.30 | ljp | it tries to keep the software free |
| 20:21.41 | cjb | this doesn't contradict BSD being about individual freedom only. |
| 20:22.43 | rwhitby | MIT says do whatever, just keep the copyright - you don't even have to tell people that you've kept the copyright. |
| 20:23.08 | hrw|tv | for me bsd/mit are not a choice when I choose license for my own (as written by me) software - it is too easy to make anything with it without giving back |
| 20:23.13 | ScaredyCat | no cjb - you attributed that philosopy to ME |
| 20:23.20 | hrw|tv | so for my stuff I prefer lgpl/gpl |
| 20:23.51 | cjb | ScaredyCat: I attribute that philosophy to the license you prefer. There wouldn't be much point in preferring a license whose philosophy you disagree with. |
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| 20:24.01 | ScaredyCat | I generally don;t care. If someone finds my stuff useful then good for them |
| 20:24.12 | rwhitby | hrw|tv: there are cases where someone using my BSD licensed software may be more profitable for me (and better feed my family) than someone using by GPL'd software (and I do release both) |
| 20:24.23 | rwhitby | s/by/my/ |
| 20:25.04 | rwhitby | I also produce proprietary software. |
| 20:25.18 | hrw|tv | rwhitby: if someone want to make profit from my code he can contact me to discuss about license change |
| 20:25.35 | rwhitby | hrw|tv: not if you've incorporated or derived from GPL though ... |
| 20:25.37 | hrw|tv | with (l)gpl you can still make profit from my code. |
| 20:26.11 | rwhitby | only in some specific business models |
| 20:26.12 | hrw|tv | (l)gpl does not tell 'do not make profit' - it tell 'give same rights as you got' |
| 20:26.33 | ScaredyCat | the gpl doesn't stop you making profit |
| 20:26.35 | rwhitby | yes, and you can make profit through some open source compatible business models by doing that |
| 20:26.45 | rwhitby | many business models are not open source compatible |
| 20:27.04 | rwhitby | freedom is being able to choose amongst any of those business models ;-) |
| 20:27.04 | ScaredyCat | s/many/most/ |
| 20:27.32 | rwhitby | (note that "freedom" != "Free (TM, FSF)" |
| 20:27.35 | matthew_ | open source business models are bunk |
| 20:27.36 | hrw|tv | rwhitby: and if some XCV company would want to make profit from my (l)gpl code they can contact me about selling them code under bsd/mit license |
| 20:27.58 | rwhitby | hrw|tv: again, not if your code incorporates or is derived from GPL code of others |
| 20:28.06 | ScaredyCat | but once you release it under bsd/mit - that's it |
| 20:28.23 | rwhitby | (or links to, for that matter) |
| 20:28.37 | hrw|tv | I know |
| 20:29.22 | rwhitby | so one could in an inflammatory way say that using GPL'd code has restricted your freedom (where "freedom" != "Free(TM,FSF)) |
| 20:30.04 | ScaredyCat | it doesn't have to be imflamatory, especially if it's true :) |
| 20:30.07 | matthew_ | what are these profitable open source companies? |
| 20:30.07 | Writchie | rwhitby: absoluetly |
| 20:30.19 | Writchie | redhat for one |
| 20:30.38 | hrw|tv | anyway I can ignore that stuff for now. |
| 20:30.40 | ScaredyCat | yeah, but redhad did a bucket load of stuff |
| 20:30.58 | hrw|tv | years passed since I wrote application from start to end. |
| 20:31.08 | matthew_ | ok, so there's one. |
| 20:31.19 | matthew_ | the two that came to mind for me were novell and sun microsystems. |
| 20:31.31 | hrw|tv | mostly do extra functionality for apps or fixing bugs or other such stuff |
| 20:32.03 | matthew_ | Novell's trading at 7.89, Sun at 6.23. Redhat at 21.39. |
| 20:32.07 | hrw|tv | so code whhich I write is licensed how app is licensed |
| 20:32.30 | cjb | Writchie: Redhat is not entirely an open-source company. |
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| 20:32.41 | cjb | their biggest profit source, Red Hat Network, is proprietary software. |
| 20:32.43 | matthew_ | So best case scenario you are a somewhat successful company, |
| 20:32.50 | guerby | hi, Phase_1_Software_Testing hasn't been updated in a while, what repo should i look at to get latest stuff? |
| 20:32.55 | soeme_ | hi |
| 20:33.22 | ljp | matthew_: Trolltech is |
| 20:33.59 | rwhitby | ljp: and profitable? |
| 20:34.01 | ScaredyCat | mmm.... |
| 20:34.10 | soeme_ | who have a rootfs image for a mio a701, include zImage? |
| 20:34.11 | rwhitby | hrw|tv: me too - I rarely get to choose the licensing |
| 20:34.13 | cjb | rwhitby: I'd prefer to label that as "using GPL'd code has restricted your personal freedom", as above. |
| 20:34.17 | cjb | I think the personal/grou2 downloaded from http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/download.html (the binaries) 1b2 loaded to the graphic interface, but I feel the interface a bit unresponsible (maybe an issue by emulation.) Thanks to Fernando <fernandogrd at yahoo dot com dot br> by the Qemu 0.8.2 Ubuntu issue tip. |
| 20:34.25 | rwhitby | cjb: fully agree with that statement |
| 20:34.25 | matthew_ | trolltech is losing money, and hasn't even gone public |
| 20:34.34 | ScaredyCat | new kernel - ! reboot!! |
| 20:34.38 | ljp | matthew_: Trolltech is public TROLL.OL |
| 20:34.39 | cjb | ... |
| 20:34.42 | cjb | sorry, mispaste :) |
| 20:35.35 | ljp | matthew_: Trolltech is loosing money because it is investing in human resources/development |
| 20:36.17 | Vegar | ljp: where is trolltech based? |
| 20:36.24 | ljp | Trolltech made a profit befor egoing public |
| 20:36.32 | ljp | Oslo Norway |
| 20:36.33 | matthew_ | ok, appear to be trading at 11.70. they're doing ok. |
| 20:36.56 | Vegar | ljp: is that where you are? |
| 20:36.57 | matthew_ | no one's going to drop their current model to become an ok company. |
| 20:37.20 | ljp | Vegar: No, Qtopia development is done in Brisbane Australia |
| 20:37.44 | rwhitby | Queensland - the best place in the world to live. |
| 20:37.50 | Vegar | ah, ok, about as far away from Norway as you can get |
| 20:37.53 | ljp | :) |
| 20:38.21 | cjb | matthew_: Sun have done mostly exactly that. |
| 20:38.25 | rwhitby | heh |
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| 20:38.34 | cjb | Solaris and Java were legendary pieces of proprietary software. |
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| 20:39.36 | matthew_ | and they made a huge mistake |
| 20:40.02 | cjb | yet they're rich and powerful and you aren't. Oh, if only they'd listened to you! :) |
| 20:40.56 | ScaredyCat | how do you knw he's not rich and powerful too ? |
| 20:42.07 | ljp | java is not completely open source |
| 20:42.07 | cjb | it's just a guess. |
| 20:42.39 | matthew_ | true, but they used to be a lot more rich and powerful |
| 20:42.47 | rwhitby | anyone rich and powerful doesn't waste their time on IRC |
| 20:42.59 | rwhitby | they employ a community engineer to do that for them |
| 20:43.24 | ScaredyCat | not if they do it for fun |
| 20:43.56 | matthew_ | but i don't know if going open source hurt them or if java just peaked. |
| 20:44.12 | ScaredyCat | people discovered it's poo |
| 20:44.40 | matthew_ | i hear it's not poo anymore, but that image is still there |
| 20:44.57 | cjb | I think Java's still one of the top #3 languages used, so I wouldn't say it's past its time just yet. |
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| 20:45.21 | ScaredyCat | yeah, that's part of the problem I guess, slow and crappy... as a perception |
| 20:45.25 | ljp | thats because managers make the decision to use java |
| 20:45.59 | rwhitby | the best business decision is often not the best technical decision |
| 20:46.23 | rwhitby | take the iPhone for instance ;-) |
| 20:46.25 | Writchie | teaching people visual basic and java in school doesn't help |
| 20:46.29 | ScaredyCat | true, which is why you often get over paid consultants working in your office... |
| 20:46.36 | ScaredyCat | someone to take the blame |
| 20:46.41 | cesarb | Isn't Java the new Cobol? |
| 20:47.08 | rwhitby | did anyone ever teach cobol? |
| 20:48.37 | Writchie | rwhitby: yes - it was the language for the mongolian hoardes |
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| 20:49.08 | Writchie | COBOL was successful because tab room managers could pretend they could read what programmers were doing ;) |
| 20:49.49 | ScaredyCat | rpg was designed to suck out the soul of the programmer |
| 20:50.10 | Writchie | there was no such things as an rpg programmer |
| 20:50.18 | Writchie | it was a form filler outer |
| 20:50.31 | ScaredyCat | yes.. |
| 20:50.55 | Writchie | come to think of it, that's how we got our assembler into the machine |
| 20:50.56 | ScaredyCat | no thought required :/ |
| 20:52.29 | ScaredyCat | Power usage (ACPI estimate): 15.8W (2.1 hours) gahah |
| 20:52.46 | emdete | hey, any motivation to port rpg or fortran to the neo? :D what about cobol? |
| 20:53.19 | Writchie | fortran probably works out of the box |
| 20:53.31 | emdete | Writchie: hopefully not :) |
| 20:53.45 | Writchie | i think somebody has run gcc |
| 20:53.48 | Writchie | on the neo |
| 20:53.53 | Vegar | ScaredyCat: on your laptop? |
| 20:53.55 | ScaredyCat | thankfully you'd have to get licensing on rpg - so we're safe |
| 20:53.59 | ScaredyCat | Vegar: yes |
| 20:54.14 | emdete | ScaredyCat: good to hear ;) |
| 20:54.44 | cjb | Is there a known good Neo image at the moment? (ie. stable gsmd and latest UI?) |
| 20:54.56 | sagacis_ | heh.... |
| 20:55.50 | emdete | what would be the best method to monitor power consumption on the neo? battery voltage? - also i tried to compile rrd to get some graphs which does not work - anyone else succesful on that? |
| 20:56.40 | ScaredyCat | there's a script on the wiki that'll drain your battery in <1 hour if you want it :) |
| 20:56.58 | emdete | i had very bad expiriences with my experiments on gprs - the battery last one hour... |
| 20:56.59 | sagacis_ | You could just leave it on, if you want to drain it quickly. |
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| 20:57.40 | emdete | sagacis_: :) i want to see how fast it goes down when... best would be to see the current if you switch devices on or off |
| 20:57.45 | Writchie | ScaredyCat: doing what? |
| 20:58.18 | ScaredyCat | monitoring neo power |
| 20:58.22 | emdete | ScaredyCat: shure, that's easy, i do that with gprs. i think switching on gps will be even faster ;) |
| 20:58.50 | ScaredyCat | [yeah, but this gives youu power stats.. before it sucks the life from your neo :) |
| 20:59.04 | emdete | ScaredyCat: ah, understand... |
| 20:59.14 | emdete | what does it use? rrd? |
| 20:59.28 | ScaredyCat | a flat file |
| 20:59.37 | ScaredyCat | iirc .. |
| 20:59.49 | ScaredyCat | I deleted it after it sucked the battery dry |
| 21:00.21 | ScaredyCat | but that's probably better anyway, then you can plot with anything |
| 21:01.21 | emdete | i normaly use rrd for that which makes really nice graphs. i don't understand why it does not compiler. there is a floating point error message when configuring |
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| 21:06.19 | ScaredyCat | powertop for arm would be nice |
| 21:09.15 | Vegar | ScaredyCat: I get about the same numbers with backlight at a minimum |
| 21:09.23 | Vegar | around 15.4W |
| 21:11.03 | ScaredyCat | I suppose it's not too bad, considering I just saw somone say theirs was 25w |
| 21:12.48 | Vegar | usage in windows is 16W |
| 21:12.49 | Vegar | ish |
| 21:13.23 | CoreDump | "Google Phone Rumors Solidifying" |
| 21:13.26 | CoreDump | interesting |
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| 21:15.03 | ScaredyCat | I can't think of anyhting more scary than the google phone. |
| 21:15.16 | ScaredyCat | well, other than an implant |
| 21:15.21 | ScaredyCat | google implant |
| 21:15.25 | Vegar | I bet it'll be very cheap |
| 21:16.06 | ScaredyCat | it will, if you don;t value your privacy |
| 21:16.06 | Vegar | hehe |
| 21:17.20 | PP|Spydon | gnite folks |
| 21:17.46 | CoreDump | rumours have it that it runs Linux and is "open" |
| 21:19.15 | viq | ScaredyCat: google phone operated by a state owned phone company? ;) |
| 21:22.12 | CoreDump | if it is as open as the Neo (which I doubt) that wouldn't be a problem, now would it? =) |
| 21:23.41 | buz | if the google phone really runs linux, it shouldnt be very hard to get rid of the spying stuff |
| 21:24.08 | ScaredyCat | they'll put it in the gsm or gps driver... |
| 21:24.10 | buz | tho i still think the gphone may actually be gqtopia isntead |
| 21:24.24 | ScaredyCat | mmm... |
| 21:24.35 | SpeedEvil | buz: not if done right. |
| 21:24.53 | buz | think about it, gets them free access to just about any wince phone plus any decent linux phone they can come up with |
| 21:24.55 | SpeedEvil | buz: secured hardware, approved kernels only (till you pay a release fee) |
| 21:25.25 | buz | i'm not sure spying on people via GSM will fly in many countries |
| 21:25.26 | SpeedEvil | buz: modified X/... to prevent ad-blocking. All user programs run unpriviledged. |
| 21:25.37 | buz | this could be construed as wiretapping |
| 21:25.51 | SpeedEvil | buz: generally not if it's a contract to which you agree. |
| 21:26.02 | buz | then it may be ok |
| 21:26.17 | buz | but in any case, it would require written consnet |
| 21:26.24 | buz | not just eula crap |
| 21:26.35 | ScaredyCat | that'll be the contract with AT&T then ;) |
| 21:26.52 | buz | google will know better than to limit themselves to any one carrier |
| 21:27.13 | CoreDump | guys, google is not completely evil yet. Lets give the the benefit of doubt until we get facts ;) |
| 21:27.23 | buz | not completely, but well on its way |
| 21:27.37 | ScaredyCat | aren't they buying up frequency atm ? |
| 21:27.44 | buz | and much worse a danger than MS or Apple could ever be |
| 21:27.49 | ScaredyCat | CoreDump: errm no.. |
| 21:27.54 | CoreDump | compared to certain other uber-cors they are practically saints heh |
| 21:28.00 | CoreDump | +corps |
| 21:28.15 | buz | depends |
| 21:28.17 | ScaredyCat | google is evil and are systematically profiilying you. |
| 21:28.21 | buz | yes |
| 21:28.33 | buz | other mega corps do the same, but at least dont put the stuff online for everyone to see |
| 21:28.35 | ScaredyCat | people give up everything for a few 'free' apps |
| 21:29.46 | buz | well i radically block all cookies with *google* in them |
| 21:30.09 | ScaredyCat | I surf for porn to throw them off :P |
| 21:30.31 | buz | that's a new one. "I'm reading playboy to confuse googlebot" |
| 21:30.34 | ScaredyCat | badger pron is hard to find though |
| 21:30.40 | CoreDump | it always depends on what they are doing with the gathered data IMO. |
| 21:30.40 | viq | though google is nice for mailinglists stuff |
| 21:30.50 | buz | google is nice for search. |
| 21:30.59 | buz | everything else is subpar in my book |
| 21:31.11 | CoreDump | If they don't sell it, I couldn't care less if my ads are "targeted" |
| 21:31.23 | ScaredyCat | google will build up a nice profile of you and one day you'll find a package in your mailbox for the item they knew you were about to buy |
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| 21:31.58 | CoreDump | doesn't bother me. I know how to cover my tracks when I do not want to be tracked hehe |
| 21:32.05 | abraxa_ | ScaredyCat: ...or you'll find Anthrax because they suspect you're a terrorist. |
| 21:32.16 | ScaredyCat | you might CoreDump, the average joe doesn;t |
| 21:32.32 | mwester | ScaredyCat: people give up everything for a few 'free' apps because people are basically ignorant, and it is not in the best interest of any of the mega-corps to inform "joe public" about what they give up. |
| 21:32.33 | ScaredyCat | Google Police |
| 21:33.07 | buz | ads? what ads? |
| 21:33.16 | CoreDump | ScaredyCat: I beg to differ. You are talking about the corrupt police state the USA has become. It ain't googles fault |
| 21:33.17 | ScaredyCat | it's not the ads |
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| 21:33.25 | buz | i know |
| 21:33.30 | buz | the search engine is the real problem |
| 21:33.38 | buz | maybe i should start routing queries to google through tor ;) |
| 21:33.51 | ScaredyCat | google is part of it CoreDump - just another corporation |
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| 21:34.58 | CoreDump | google is forced by "The State" to gather and disclose data. And they are of course not allowed to talk about it. It isn't googles fault that the USA has basically to privacy laws in place. |
| 21:35.29 | ScaredyCat | google exists in more places than the usa |
| 21:35.43 | CoreDump | and they follow the local laws =) |
| 21:35.51 | ScaredyCat | in China too |
| 21:35.55 | CoreDump | indeed |
| 21:36.02 | buz | google is a cult |
| 21:36.15 | buz | recently saw a recruiting presentation by google |
| 21:36.31 | CoreDump | only because we don't like certain laws doesn't mean google can afford to ignore them |
| 21:36.32 | viq | the scary thing is that google's data is in USA, so USA's govt can request data about anyone using it |
| 21:36.40 | CoreDump | be it in china or elsewhere |
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| 21:52.44 | flaushy | ~9 |
| 21:52.45 | apt | extra, extra, read all about it, 9 is less than 10. the standard port for DISCARD |
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| 21:53.35 | bedboi | any news ? |
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| 23:21.34 | linux_galore | looks like the Google linux based mobile phone is all go |
| 23:22.01 | Stephmw | new info, or yesterday's news? |
| 23:22.06 | linux_galore | looks like FIC will have some serious competition next year |
| 23:22.22 | linux_galore | just saw something on /. |
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| 23:23.36 | linux_galore | http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/14/0218229 |
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| 23:24.41 | Stephmw | ah |
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| 23:27.22 | linux_galore | if you think about it its really a good move for google, you get webmail,search,web-office apps and a huge chunk of virtual storage without having to worry about your sd card getting filled or lost |
| 23:28.43 | linux_galore | I keep saying people are missing the big $$ for mobiles and that is web services that integrate easily with the device |
| 23:29.23 | linux_galore | if you lose your mobile who cares go get another one all the data is on the web |
| 23:30.26 | linux_galore | trying to turn a mobile into a portable PC seems a bit old and overkill |
| 23:31.19 | linux_galore | some will want the PC option (UMPC with GSM/CDMA support) but many dont want that much overkill |
| 23:33.27 | Stephmw | gotta get some Zzzz's g'night! (interesting topic though) |
| 23:40.05 | cb22 | don't suppose that multi-touch driver hack that sean mentioned in a email a while ago is possible? |
| 23:41.49 | roh | which multi-touch? |
| 23:42.40 | cb22 | http://osdir.com/ml/hardware.openmoko.general/2006-12/msg00074.html |
| 23:42.52 | cb22 | The vendor of the touch panel we are using said it might be possible. But it |
| 23:42.52 | cb22 | would be a considerable driver effort. We are not going to have this done |
| 23:42.52 | cb22 | for our initial Neo1973 release. I was never even on our roadmap for this |
| 23:42.52 | cb22 | device. |
| 23:43.01 | roh | linux_galore well.. not competition. they have clearly other targets |
| 23:43.28 | roh | cb22 first rule when reading what hw-vendors tell you: do not believe anything they say |
| 23:43.31 | roh | ;) |
| 23:43.36 | cb22 | hehe |
| 23:43.43 | cb22 | too bad |
| 23:44.26 | cb22 | does it sound possible? |
| 23:44.55 | roh | to be fair, i dunno it it could be true, but the work which needs to be done to have a non-certain chance of success and the gain it would give is just not in any realistic relation |
| 23:45.34 | cb22 | boo :( |
| 23:45.37 | roh | and even then it would never be real multitouch, same as apple has |
| 23:46.34 | roh | its just cheating naming something that can only have every coordinate with uniqe x and y multitouch. |
| 23:50.11 | SpeedEvil | It's not that good - there are only four wires on the touchscreen. |
| 23:50.26 | SpeedEvil | At best you get bounding box and approximate pressure |
| 23:50.47 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 23:51.22 | SpeedEvil | You can detect touches when already touched. |
| 23:51.26 | cb22 | will the accelerometers in the 02 be more accurate then the iphone? |
| 23:51.31 | SpeedEvil | but more than that is tricky |
| 23:52.19 | cb22 | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer makes them sound quite useless |
| 23:52.36 | SpeedEvil | cbrake_away: Is that referring to the Wii accellerometer? |
| 23:52.39 | SpeedEvil | cb2: |
| 23:52.41 | SpeedEvil | 2 |
| 23:52.53 | cb22 | SpeedEvil, still not got your nick tabbing working? ;p |
| 23:53.01 | cb22 | no, the neo's |
| 23:53.02 | SpeedEvil | The ones mentioned in the mailing list posting of way-back are some 16 times worse than that. |
| 23:53.18 | *** join/#openmoko raster (n=raster@122-124-70-186.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 23:53.19 | cb22 | but we have two of them, doesnt that count for something? |
| 23:53.24 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 23:53.26 | SpeedEvil | Not really. |
| 23:53.31 | cb22 | :( |
| 23:53.45 | cb22 | will it be able to detect if i turn my phone horizontal? |
| 23:53.56 | SpeedEvil | It can accurately tell which way down is |
| 23:54.15 | cb22 | so, yes |
| 23:54.17 | SpeedEvil | See 'results' on that page |
| 23:54.58 | cb22 | SpeedEvil, that section refers mainly to inertial nav |
| 23:55.18 | SpeedEvil | The inertial nav is a way to approach what the sensors can do. |
| 23:55.37 | SpeedEvil | For example, what the responses are to twisting the neo along various axes. |
| 23:55.49 | cb22 | well, /me doesnt really care... as long as if i turn my phone horizontally it can detect it :) |
| 23:55.54 | SpeedEvil | Anyway. |
| 23:56.06 | SpeedEvil | Based on the apparent likely specs: |
| 23:56.11 | SpeedEvil | It can tell where down is. |
| 23:56.26 | cb22 | cool :) |
| 23:56.37 | SpeedEvil | It can't do useful dead reckoning even in a car holder for over 10s or so. |
| 23:56.39 | mjr | cb22, do not forget it needs to be able to control lightsaber sounds |
| 23:56.51 | cb22 | mjr, very true |
| 23:56.53 | SpeedEvil | It can tell if you tap the top or the bottom of the case. |
| 23:57.05 | cb22 | SpeedEvil, now that is _cool_ |
| 23:57.12 | SpeedEvil | (assumign that the accels are at the top or the bottom of the screen |
| 23:57.21 | SpeedEvil | (assumign that the accels are at the top or the bottom of the neo |
| 23:57.27 | SpeedEvil | s/or/and/ |
| 23:57.52 | SpeedEvil | It can't tell any but the most violent twists that do not affect where 'down' points. |
| 23:58.11 | cb22 | ok, got it |
| 23:58.11 | SpeedEvil | For example, holding the neo in front of you looking at a map, and turning round, you can't pick tha tup. |
| 23:58.31 | mjr | bummer |
| 23:58.39 | cb22 | ie, if i put it on a table and turn it around, not moving it |
| 23:58.46 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 23:59.00 | SpeedEvil | It can detect if you actually spin it. |
| 23:59.11 | SpeedEvil | But not at handheld useful rates. |
