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| 02:42.25 | bedboi | hi all |
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| 03:08.24 | Selenolycus | <PROTECTED> |
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| 03:52.09 | rwhitby | | Failure to read QMAKESPEC conf file /home/moko/build/tmp/staging/i486-angstrom-linux/qt4/mkspec\ |
| 03:52.10 | rwhitby | s/linux-oe-g++/qmake.conf. |
| 03:52.10 | rwhitby | | Error processing project file: /home/moko/build/tmp/work/i486-angstrom-linux/webkit-gtk-0.0+svn\ |
| 03:52.10 | rwhitby | r25507-r1/WebKit.pro |
| 03:53.54 | rwhitby | looks like webkit is not a frozen svn version yet ... |
| 03:54.25 | rwhitby | I say feedreader should be excluded from the image until all it's dependencies have frozen building versions ... |
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| 04:05.04 | Sup3rkiddo | i have been having real problems with uicmoc-native compiling on my box on gentoo, anyone having the same problem |
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| 05:11.40 | cesarb | gsmd should not crash, and should the modem become unresponsive, or there is a need to turn it on/off, gsmd should deal with it |
| 05:12.02 | dotmef | yup. |
| 05:12.20 | cesarb | (and it goes without saying that it should just damn work when the phone is turned on. every. time.) |
| 05:12.30 | dotmef | I'm seeing the rc-script and the gsmd being killed repeatedly during startup |
| 05:13.12 | dotmef | I've put in lockfiles and traps to make the rc-script a little more robust |
| 05:13.46 | dotmef | now it seems stable once I restart X |
| 05:13.56 | dotmef | but it's still bonkers on boot |
| 05:15.12 | dotmef | I seem to remember someone mentioning that X itself is set to restart gsmd - have you heard/seen that? |
| 05:19.02 | cesarb | dotmef: a lot of people seem to put a restart on matchbox's session file |
| 05:19.23 | cesarb | dotmef: don't know if that workaround got upstream... I didn't follow much this later half of this week |
| 05:20.21 | cesarb | dotmef: btw, did you try my patches on bug 766? they should make gsmd even more robust... (and even then, it still fails on most boots. must be some hardware thing.) |
| 05:20.53 | dotmef | cesarb: 766? don't think I've seen it. lemme check |
| 05:21.09 | cesarb | I mean, with the patches on bug 766, I can see the modem get send an ATZ, send back an OK, get sent an ATE0V1, and then _sit there doing nothing_. |
| 05:21.24 | cesarb | Which really seems to point to either the modem or the kernel |
| 05:21.42 | cesarb | Other times, it stops on ATZ, with no response from the modem |
| 05:22.02 | dotmef | oh wow. holy crap that's bad |
| 05:22.26 | cesarb | And, other times, it sends an ATZ, the modem sends back "AT Command Interpreter Ready", and then the changes on my patch kick in, gsmd changes ATZ again (which it doesn't do without my patch...), and it all works fine |
| 05:22.43 | cesarb | This third case seems responsible for about half the times it works on boot for me |
| 05:23.35 | cesarb | The other half it sends ATZ, receives back two ATZ echoes (why two? no fscking clue) and the OK, sends ATE0V1, receives back again two echoes and the OK, and the rest goes normally with echo off |
| 05:23.37 | dotmef | right - cool. |
| 05:23.58 | dotmef | bizarre |
| 05:24.34 | cesarb | Unfortunately, Harald is busy elsewhere and thus can't review my patch, which I am believing he will either accept or code up one of his own to fix the same bug in a different way |
| 05:25.26 | cesarb | (btw, this fourth case would work even without my patch... so it does not make much of a difference after all) |
| 05:26.53 | dotmef | man - that's a shame that Harald hasn't had a chance to look at it. we need to clone him. |
| 05:27.40 | dotmef | the other thing that confuses me is the lack of a "cpuinfo_id" program that the gsmd rc-script uses. |
| 05:27.46 | ckuethe | bk clone openmoko://harald ? |
| 05:27.59 | gnu | several of the panel items have code that **stops and restarts** gsmd if they can't connect to it! (They clobber each other) |
| 05:28.00 | dotmef | :-D |
| 05:28.31 | dotmef | Error: no space on device |
| 05:29.15 | dotmef | gnu: yep - been seeing that in the moko-gsmd-connection code |
| 05:29.38 | gnu | pulling that code out should improve the uptime of gsmd... |
| 05:29.39 | dotmef | which seems to be invoked twice during the desktop startup |
| 05:30.43 | cesarb | ckuethe: nobody uses bitkeeper anymore... |
| 05:31.04 | dotmef | s/bk/git/ |
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| 06:10.03 | AntonTakk | a core 2 duo cpu would use the x86_64 version of F7, right? |
| 06:10.22 | dotmef | yep |
| 06:10.42 | dotmef | the x86_64 installer should fail if it can't detect a 64-bit CPU |
| 06:11.03 | dotmef | you can still use the i386 version if you want |
| 06:12.46 | AntonTakk | i'd rather do the 64 bit version, i encode a lot ov video for my pmp |
| 06:12.55 | AntonTakk | of* |
| 06:13.21 | dotmef | cool - as long as you're prepared to not have easy access to things like Flash |
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| 06:14.01 | AntonTakk | just setup a custom launcher to run 32 bit ff |
| 06:14.11 | dotmef | yup, or use Gnash |
| 06:16.12 | AntonTakk | gnash working reasonably well now? |
| 06:16.56 | dotmef | definitely. |
| 06:17.03 | dotmef | 0.8.1 is still quite rough around the edges |
| 06:17.30 | dotmef | and more advanced flash (v8 & 9 I think) isn't so good |
| 06:18.02 | dotmef | but youtube is working pretty good now. (ignore the mangled widgets :) ) |
| 06:18.30 | dotmef | I don't think anyone's packaged up 0.8.1 for F7 yet though |
| 06:19.13 | dotmef | maybe in atrpms or somewhere like that |
| 06:19.26 | AntonTakk | eww |
| 06:19.36 | dotmef | :D |
| 06:20.41 | dotmef | I'm off to eat and do some non-free work. |
| 06:21.00 | dotmef | good luck with the install! |
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| 08:24.42 | PBeck | hi |
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| 08:43.25 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 09:20.35 | polz | anybode here ? |
| 09:20.42 | polz | anybody |
| 09:23.42 | Sup3rkiddo | me |
| 09:23.44 | Sup3rkiddo | :D |
| 09:23.47 | polz | cool |
| 09:24.12 | polz | Sup3rkiddo: do you have any idea how I could set up mokomakefile to build my own image ? |
| 09:24.48 | polz | I'd like to be able to do something like make polz-devel-image, but still get updates when I run make update-makefile |
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| 09:25.03 | Sup3rkiddo | polz, ah wait, theres a wiki page, gimme a minute mate |
| 09:25.27 | Sup3rkiddo | polz, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Application_Development_Crash_Course#Setting_Up_a_Local_Overlay |
| 09:25.32 | Sup3rkiddo | something like this? |
| 09:25.43 | polz | not exactly... |
| 09:26.38 | polz | with that, you have to issue "cd build; . ../setup-env; bitbake -c polz-devel-image |
| 09:28.48 | Sup3rkiddo | polz, yeah dude, scroll down a little,,, |
| 09:31.07 | polz | Sup3rkiddo: that's... ugly |
| 09:31.31 | Sup3rkiddo | polz, lol, thats what i do..=D, |
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| 09:32.28 | polz | Sup3rkiddo: I'd much rather keep the list of aditional packages in local/packages/tasks/task-openmoko-polz |
| 09:34.31 | Sup3rkiddo | polz, you could hack the MokoMakefile a whee bit to do a cd build; . ../setup-env; bitbake -c polz-devel-image routine |
| 09:34.37 | Sup3rkiddo | oops, brb |
| 09:35.18 | polz | I know... but that would get overwritten everytime I do an update-makefile |
| 09:36.50 | Sup3rkiddo | polz, i normally keep the changed copy and rename the original Makefile to something else...bit stupid, i must agree |
| 09:37.23 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03zecke * r2975 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-feedreader2/ (ChangeLog po/LINGUAS po/he.po po/ru.po): |
| 09:37.24 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 2007-09-16 Evgeny Gizburg <Nad.Oby@gmail.com> |
| 09:37.24 | CIA-23 | openmoko: Add a hebrew and russian translation. |
| 09:37.24 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * po/LINGUAS: |
| 09:37.24 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * po/he.po: Added. |
| 09:37.25 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * po/ru.po: Added. |
| 09:39.25 | Sup3rkiddo | polz, never mind, i was blabbering..sorry mate =| |
| 09:40.00 | polz | no problem ; a week ago your tips would have meant a lot to me :) |
| 09:40.45 | Sup3rkiddo | polz, welcome man, cya around in a bit |
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| 10:14.43 | Kero | on `make openmko-devel-image`. creating the dir lets the scripts continu, but (esp since I switched off locle generation, to see if that helped; wondering why the option had disappeared from local.conf, too) nothing is ever put there. |
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| 10:39.40 | rwhitby | Sup3rkiddo, polz: try "make build-package-polz-devel-image" |
| 10:40.27 | polz | rwhitby: gaah! That's sooo obvious |
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| 10:41.31 | Sup3rkiddo | rwhitby, <rant>merging the changes in the pristine Makefile and my bastardized one will be awesome when i do make update-makefile..=)</rant> |
| 10:44.20 | Sup3rkiddo | :P |
| 10:45.47 | Jiten | Sup3rkiddo: just modify your version so that the update-makefile patches the new version automatically with your changes if possible ;) |
| 10:47.11 | Jiten | well, it doesn't really conflict with laziness if you ask me. In the long run, it should save you a bit of time. |
| 10:48.16 | Sup3rkiddo | Jiten, right, doing that would be awesome, lemme see what i can do, when i get the time that is ;) |
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| 10:56.07 | rwhitby | Sup3rkiddo: note that the charter of the MokoMakefile is to make sure things are built the same as the core team expects, so that bug reports from developer builds are relevant. Adding things to an image is fine (although I would suggest just getting the thing added to task-openmoko-feed and then ipkg installing it), but patches which change the way the standard image is built are not likely to be compatible with that charter. |
| 10:56.48 | Sup3rkiddo | rwhitby, O.O, hmm...ok....i understand... |
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| 11:24.09 | polz | rwhitby: is it safe to do both a "make setup" and "make setup-x86" in the same dir ? |
| 11:25.01 | rwhitby | should be - the openmoko conf uses multimachine in OE, which is designed to allow that. |
| 11:25.36 | rwhitby | webkit doesn't built for MACHINE=x86 for me, so I haven't been able to test that latelt. |
| 11:25.39 | rwhitby | lately. |
| 11:40.07 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2976 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (ChangeLog src/moko-notify.c): openmoko-dialer2: play ringtone sample |
| 11:46.13 | *** join/#openmoko hhf423 (n=chatzill@A75a5.a.strato-dslnet.de) |
| 11:46.53 | hhf423 | re |
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| 12:22.49 | Ghiottone | hello |
| 12:23.07 | Ghiottone | ping rwhitby |
| 12:23.28 | rwhitby | gu |
| 12:24.24 | Ghiottone | rwhitby, I've got that patch for the svn trunk ready |
| 12:24.48 | Ghiottone | rwhitby, do you want to have a look at it? |
| 12:25.46 | rwhitby | sure, pastebin it |
| 12:28.18 | Ghiottone | rwhitby, http://pastebin.com/dd40523e |
| 12:28.25 | *** join/#openmoko burton__ (n=burt0n`@ASte-Genev-Bois-152-1-18-66.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
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| 12:35.05 | hhf423 | hi all |
| 12:35.27 | Ghiottone | hey hhf423 |
| 12:35.31 | hhf423 | whats up, any news? |
| 12:36.23 | Ghiottone | hhf423, I did some boot analysis |
| 12:36.42 | *** join/#openmoko jpozlovsky (n=jindra@rb5cc115.net.upc.cz) |
| 12:37.02 | hhf423 | bootcharts based? |
| 12:37.10 | Ghiottone | hhf423, with tuukkah. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bootcharts |
| 12:37.14 | Ghiottone | yes |
| 12:37.22 | rwhitby | Anyone here have bluetooth working as a server on the Neo yet? |
| 12:37.29 | hhf423 | how does that work? e.g. how would I do that? |
| 12:37.51 | Ghiottone | hhf423, ipkg install bootchart. |
| 12:37.56 | rwhitby | (i.e. you can connect to the neo from another device, I am not talking about connecting from the neo *to* another bluetooth server) |
| 12:38.03 | hhf423 | rwhitby: I only used the Neo as a client for real, but I once connected from Windows to the Neo (Neo Server) |
| 12:38.04 | Ghiottone | hhf423, I can put the needed packages on my repo if you want |
| 12:38.23 | rwhitby | hhf423: what server on the Neo? dund or pand? |
| 12:38.39 | Ghiottone | hhf423, oh, "that" refers to bluetooth. sry |
| 12:38.40 | hhf423 | Ghiottone: if you're interested how a bootchart looks for me, I can run that, no problem. package would be nice then |
| 12:39.02 | hhf423 | rwhitby: I used pand |
| 12:39.45 | rwhitby | ok, I'm trying to get a dund server running so I can connect to the Neo from my Treo650. |
| 12:39.47 | hhf423 | Ghiottone: no, "that" referred to bootchart |
| 12:40.08 | hhf423 | ipkg install bootchart does not work for me |
| 12:40.17 | hhf423 | rwhitby: but pad has server mode |
| 12:40.36 | Ghiottone | hhf423, oh ok. I'm about to upload the packages you need |
| 12:40.40 | rwhitby | yes, but Treo650 doesn't do pan, only dun |
| 12:41.11 | hhf423 | rwhitby: ah ok |
| 12:41.22 | hhf423 | Ghiottone: ok, let me know when its there |
| 12:41.46 | rwhitby | hhf423: however, I guess I could run a pand server on the NSLU2 as well, then have both the Treo and the Neo connected to the NSLU2 with it routing between them. |
| 12:41.49 | hhf423 | I didn't know that something like bootchart exists. nice stuff |
| 12:42.21 | rwhitby | hhf423: do you have any nice instructions for neo as a pan client? |
| 12:42.44 | rwhitby | e.g. something that brings up networking via bnep whenever the neo comes in range of the pand server? |
| 12:43.19 | *** join/#openmoko rmoravcik (n=rmoravci@adsl-dyn19.91-127-1.t-com.sk) |
| 12:43.45 | rwhitby | I want the Neo to connect to, and become part of, then LANs at my home and my work, via bluetooth access points (NSLU2 at home, Iomega NAS100d at work) |
| 12:44.24 | hhf423 | rwhitby: no, not really, but with pand, a pand -r <localrole> -c <target address> did work very well. the rest, list interface configuration worked automagically, it just took two or three seconds after the pand commend |
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| 12:45.35 | hhf423 | rwhitby: if you want the Neo to connect via pand, then pand -r PANU -c <target> -p should work |
| 12:45.51 | hhf423 | rwhitby: -p will make the Neo connect as soon as it sees the server |
| 12:46.05 | rwhitby | ok, let's see if I can get it to connect to the NSLU2 ... |
| 12:47.11 | rwhitby | ok, that gives me pan0 in /proc/net/dev ... |
| 12:47.33 | rwhitby | hmm - we don't have pan0 in /etc/network/interfaces |
| 12:47.41 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@cpc2-darl3-0-0-cust237.midd.cable.ntl.com) |
| 12:48.02 | hhf423 | rwhitby: depending on the target system you might need to be very explicit. At the beginning I though I needed to do pand -c 00:19:63:04:78:AB -r PANU -d NAP -e bnep0 -A -E -S, but then it showed that pand -c 00:19:63:04:78:AB -r PANU -A -E -S is enough, maybe even without -A -E -S |
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| 12:48.58 | hhf423 | rwhitby: you did edit the /etc/bluetooth/hcid.conf for a proper name and passkey, yes? |
| 12:49.24 | rwhitby | heh - turning bluetooth back on after rebooting the neo helps :-) |
| 12:49.36 | hhf423 | heh, yes, its off by default |
| 12:50.01 | rwhitby | yeh, it should be on by default for this development phase, in my opinion |
| 12:50.15 | hhf423 | rwhitby: ah, and one more thing: if you want to publish services on the Neo, you need to enable them in /etc/bluettoth/*.conf, e.g. network.conf |
| 12:50.31 | hhf423 | sorry, network.service |
| 12:50.31 | rwhitby | yeah, I got that bit |
| 12:51.09 | rwhitby | hmm - maybe I need to learn about this avahi stuff ... |
| 12:51.39 | hhf423 | avahi? |
| 12:52.15 | rwhitby | yeah, I get some bnep0:ava entry from ifconfig |
| 12:52.34 | rwhitby | it's the mDNS auto IP configuration stuff |
| 12:52.52 | rwhitby | maybe I just need to run avahi on the nslu2 as well |
| 12:53.41 | *** join/#openmoko zblach (n=zblach@bas2-windsor12-1088702747.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 12:53.55 | rwhitby | not to work out how to get bnep0 to automatically bridge with eth0 on the NSLU2 ... |
| 12:57.09 | Ghiottone | hhf423, packages should be online. you have to add also the all target. exact lines are on my userpage |
| 12:57.57 | hhf423 | ah |
| 12:58.46 | hhf423 | rwhitby: well, if you do not want to add additional routes in your default router of the networks, then you need to bridge, yes |
| 12:59.26 | rwhitby | it was so much easier with dund and ppp with ktune and proxyarp :-) |
| 12:59.36 | hhf423 | hahaha |
| 12:59.40 | *** join/#openmoko thomasg (n=thomasg@p57AFEDB8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:59.44 | rwhitby | yeah, I'm going to work out how to route it |
| 13:00.06 | rwhitby | ok, I can ping the nslu2 over bluetooth - sweet. |
| 13:00.18 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 13:00.26 | hhf423 | rwhitby: from the neo? |
| 13:00.30 | rwhitby | yep |
| 13:00.58 | rwhitby | just set up a static IP on the nslu2 bnep0 (192.168.1.200) and .202 static on the bnep0 on the neo |
| 13:01.31 | rwhitby | so I can have usb0 and bnep0 up at the same time, and have trunked ipkg upgrades over two network connections ... |
| 13:02.12 | hhf423 | rwhitby: start a ping and see if thats stable. I sometimes had break bt connection after 1500 pings into the internet, but also got over 2500 pings (which is not a good measurement rate as the pig times were 300 to 3000ms via GPRS at that time) |
| 13:02.57 | hhf423 | Ghiottone: hmm, still can't find bootchart in the repository |
| 13:05.22 | *** join/#openmoko rmoravci1 (n=rmoravci@adsl-dyn19.91-127-1.t-com.sk) |
| 13:05.29 | rwhitby | hhf423: is a ping to the other end of the bluetooth link all you're after? I can leave one of those running overnight for the next 8 hours or so |
| 13:05.53 | *** join/#openmoko _buz (n=buz@84-73-66-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 13:05.58 | Ghiottone | hhf423, did you add the "all" line? |
| 13:06.30 | hhf423 | rwhitby: no, I am not after that. :-) I was just suggesting it so that you can easily if bt is stable |
| 13:07.30 | rwhitby | hhf423: right, i meant is that the criteria that you suggest, just pinging the other end, and is that where you saw the link break? |
| 13:08.31 | hhf423 | Ghiottone: ah, no, just added that |
| 13:08.53 | *** join/#openmoko ccube (n=ccube@87.230.22.107) |
| 13:09.17 | hhf423 | rwhitby: yes, the bt connection broke, not my internet connection, I had to re-establish the pan (as I did not use -r that the time) |
| 13:10.17 | rwhitby | hhf423: I wonder if I can set up two pan client connections (one for home and one for work), and just have them continually trying to reconnect? |
| 13:11.02 | rwhitby | I can probably try that here - I have a Freecom FSG-3 router which I've added bluetooth to as well as the NSLU2. |
| 13:13.07 | Ghiottone | hhf423, is it working now |
| 13:13.08 | Ghiottone | hhf423, |
| 13:13.12 | Ghiottone | hhf423, ? |
| 13:13.18 | hhf423 | rwhitby: sure, why should that be a problem (aside any power consumption) |
| 13:13.22 | *** part/#openmoko cindy (n=cindy@c-24-218-180-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 13:13.28 | Kero | pft, newly compiled image gives me a shell (instead of running sysv init stuff), claiming "can't access tty; job control turned off" |
| 13:13.33 | *** join/#openmoko rmoravci2 (n=rmoravci@adsl-dyn19.91-127-1.t-com.sk) |
| 13:13.58 | hhf423 | An error ocurred, return value: 1. / Collected errors: / ERROR: Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for bootchart: / coreutils |
| 13:14.07 | hhf423 | Ghiottone: got an error |
| 13:14.36 | Ghiottone | hhf423, you miss coreutils? uploading that too |
| 13:15.41 | *** join/#openmoko Vndmtrx (n=0x0fff@unaffiliated/vndmtrx) |
| 13:16.16 | hhf423 | Ghiottone: yes, looks like it |
| 13:17.45 | rwhitby | Ghiottone: I'm adding bootchart to task-openmoko-feed - any other packages I should add while I'm there? |
| 13:18.14 | rwhitby | (then it will appear in the official feed the next time that mickeyl runs the builder) |
| 13:24.02 | *** join/#openmoko ecraven (n=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 13:31.39 | Kero | erm. if I get shitloads of [P[P[P[P scrolling by, instead of an Xserver, what is wrong? |
| 13:34.31 | C7_ | li099xx |
| 13:34.42 | C7_ | ? |
| 13:34.44 | C7_ | oops |
| 13:34.51 | C7_ | wrong window |
| 13:38.39 | *** join/#openmoko ale_ (n=ale@host179-25-dynamic.9-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 13:39.29 | rwhitby | hhf423: 2200 pings and still going strong |
| 13:39.38 | ghiottone | disconnected. |
| 13:40.06 | ghiottone | hhf423, is bootchart working now? |
| 13:41.07 | Kero | crap! gsm(d) chokes on my (ancient) SIM. That's what's wrong! |
| 13:41.34 | Kero | or the kernel or whatever. |
| 13:44.18 | *** join/#openmoko miip (n=miip@p54A55C46.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:44.26 | *** part/#openmoko gamin (n=m@car06-3-82-240-156-91.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 13:44.52 | *** join/#openmoko k-s (n=gustavo@20150215062.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
| 13:50.18 | emdete | Kero: how? |
| 13:50.34 | Kero | no clue. |
| 13:50.37 | Kero | how to debug? |
| 13:50.48 | emdete | Kero: what happened? |
| 13:51.38 | Kero | at some point, something chokes. then reboots. On first try, somewhere near starting X, after that, much earlier. |
| 13:51.44 | Kero | taking out SIM remedies |
| 13:52.08 | emdete | Kero: how old is that card? |
| 13:53.03 | Kero | many years |
| 13:53.18 | *** join/#openmoko MickeyFinns (n=uniondis@host81-156-74-55.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) |
| 13:53.26 | emdete | Kero: i would remove /etc/rc5.d/S35gsmd, start that by hand and look into /tmp/gsm.log |
| 13:53.51 | Kero | emdete: ha :) just removed that file |
| 13:54.00 | Kero | will reboot neo now |
| 13:54.09 | emdete | Kero: :) |
| 13:56.58 | Kero | not good enough. |
| 13:57.28 | Kero | no, just excruciatingly slow, now |
| 13:57.50 | Kero | where is the tree form of ps in busybox? |
| 13:58.04 | SpeedEvil | not |
| 13:58.13 | SpeedEvil | Most busybox features are not ehre. |
| 13:58.50 | SpeedEvil | or rather |
| 13:58.59 | SpeedEvil | the busybox versions lack many features. |
| 13:59.45 | Kero | right. then I guess the gsm applet starts gsmd when it is not running ? |
| 14:02.37 | *** join/#openmoko lrg (n=liam@lrg2.demon.co.uk) |
| 14:05.06 | Kero | libmokogsmd tried (it says so itself, on the console. now.) |
| 14:05.51 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@CPE-139-168-192-245.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 14:06.45 | Kero | (on a side note, who causes this? "sh: /usr/bin/cpp: not found") |
| 14:06.54 | SpeedEvil | where? |
| 14:07.01 | Kero | console |
| 14:07.02 | SpeedEvil | there is no compiler on the neo |
| 14:07.09 | Kero | of course there's no compiler :) |
| 14:07.44 | Kero | I only tell wat I see, and I have ab-so-lu-te-ly no idea what tries to run one ;) |
| 14:07.52 | SpeedEvil | cpp is the c preprocessor |
| 14:09.43 | *** join/#openmoko agoode (n=agoode@2001:4830:1633:0:212:3fff:fe70:6222) |
| 14:10.13 | Kero | mm, true. so what wouldl use the preprocessor? |
| 14:10.43 | SpeedEvil | Dunno |
| 14:10.46 | Kero | whoa, just gsmd, 33% of CPU used by events/0 |
| 14:11.26 | ghiottone | rwhitby, ping? |
| 14:11.45 | rwhitby | ghiottone: gu |
| 14:12.27 | ghiottone | rwhitby, did you have a look at the patch? is it enough? |
| 14:12.38 | rwhitby | oh, sorry, been busy with bluetooth stuff |
| 14:13.14 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 14:13.26 | ghiottone | rwhitby, np. I'd just like to know if it needs other work. otherwise I'll concentrate on other things |
| 14:13.38 | rwhitby | ghiottone: what if I've checked it out via svn+ssh instead of http ? |
| 14:14.03 | rwhitby | you broke setup-openmoko-developer too |
| 14:14.18 | rwhitby | (note the https in that target) |
| 14:14.24 | ghiottone | rwhitby, it should be enough to change root to https |
| 14:14.27 | ghiottone | rwhitby, yes |
| 14:14.55 | rwhitby | no, people without write access should only be using http, not https. |
| 14:15.23 | ghiottone | I use https as well because it only works this way with http proxies |
| 14:15.49 | hhf423 | ok, bootchart did install now |
| 14:15.58 | ghiottone | however I'll change it to use two variables |
| 14:16.12 | hhf423 | ghiottone: so do I just have to reboot to have bootcharts do its thing? |
| 14:16.12 | ghiottone | hhf423, oh great :) |
| 14:16.22 | rwhitby | ghiottone: just leave the protocol off the variable |
| 14:16.38 | ghiottone | hhf423, you have to add init=/sbin/bootchartd to the bootargs_base variable |
| 14:17.01 | hhf423 | uh oh |
| 14:17.29 | ghiottone | hhf423, use cutecom |
| 14:18.08 | hhf423 | ghiottone: for that I would need to change to my linux box, can do that later |
| 14:19.21 | *** join/#openmoko grakker (n=lang@adsl-76-234-61-3.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net) |
| 14:19.26 | hhf423 | oh, a new kernel and a new image on buildhost |
| 14:19.37 | hhf423 | thats incentive enough to bott the linux box :-) |
| 14:19.39 | hhf423 | brb |
| 14:23.10 | ghiottone | rwhitby, ok. how do I specify empty string with grep? |
| 14:23.18 | SpeedEvil | ^$ |
| 14:23.23 | SpeedEvil | matches the empty line |
| 14:23.28 | ghiottone | rwhitby, like grep http[s] |
| 14:23.44 | SpeedEvil | http[s]? - 0 or 1 s's |
| 14:23.48 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@224x182.ouraynet.com) |
| 14:23.49 | *** join/#openmoko ScaredyCat (n=andy@net-pbx.demon.nl) |
| 14:23.50 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@gprs-pool-1-012.eplus-online.de) |
| 14:24.14 | ghiottone | SpeedEvil, so does it match both http:// and https:// ? |
| 14:24.18 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 14:24.26 | SpeedEvil | actually - https? |
| 14:24.36 | *** join/#openmoko zblach (n=zblach@bas2-windsor12-1088702747.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 14:25.03 | ghiottone | SpeedEvil, sorry? |
| 14:25.08 | alphaone | ~seen zecke |
| 14:25.11 | apt | zecke is currently on #openmoko (1m 21s), last said: 'oh, get well soon'. |
| 14:25.11 | Kero | hm. gsmd seems to run fine by hand. can query it with libgsmd-tool |
| 14:25.20 | Kero | can not ener PIN succesfully, tho |
| 14:25.39 | *** join/#openmoko hhf423 (n=chatzill@A75a5.a.strato-dslnet.de) |
| 14:25.48 | hhf423 | re |
| 14:26.10 | zecke | alphaone: hi |
| 14:26.10 | ghiottone | what's the new kernel version? |
| 14:26.20 | alphaone | zecke: Hi |
| 14:26.29 | hhf423 | ghiottone: uImage-2.6.22.5-moko11+svnr2937-r0-fic-gta01.bin |
| 14:26.49 | alphaone | Do you know when you'll be here? |
| 14:27.39 | zecke | alphaone: 18:30 frankfurt hbf |
| 14:27.52 | zecke | alphaone: I'm sitting in a ICE and just crossed the dutch border |
| 14:27.58 | ghiottone | SpeedEvil, oh ok thank you |
| 14:28.26 | alphaone | zecke: Ah, cool. See you then. |
| 14:28.40 | *** part/#openmoko grakker (n=lang@adsl-76-234-61-3.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net) |
| 14:29.01 | hhf423 | uh, why has the kernel -r0 ? were we not at -r2 yet? |
| 14:29.10 | zecke | hehe |
| 14:29.26 | ScaredyCat | zecke: does the ICE actually go at high speed in .nl at all ? |
| 14:29.36 | SpeedEvil | ghiottone: err - for some reason I don't understand, that doesn't quite work. https*: works as I expected |
| 14:29.41 | SpeedEvil | byt not https?: |
| 14:30.32 | hhf423 | zecke: how do you define "bad parent"? |
| 14:32.07 | hhf423 | zecke: but of course the reason is obvious: anybody who finds someone to mate with can be come a parent basically. no training required. often not even a conscious decision required. |
| 14:32.31 | MickeyFinns | Quick question, the neo runs on 2.5G yeah? |
| 14:32.46 | zecke | hhf423: screaming at their children to shut up, and not having any patience... |
| 14:33.04 | hhf423 | MickeyFinns: it uses GSM for calls and GPRS for data if thats your question |
| 14:33.04 | zecke | hhf423: i know how difficult a long journey can be... but some parents... |
| 14:33.12 | SpeedEvil | MickeyFinns: it does not support EDGE |
| 14:33.14 | *** join/#openmoko Pupeno (n=Pupeno@dsl-37-170.dsl.netsource.ie) |
| 14:33.33 | MickeyFinns | hhf423: I'm basically trying to figure out is compatibility in the UK. |
| 14:33.46 | ghiottone | SpeedEvil, oh, confirmed. thank you |
| 14:34.57 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@introspect.com) |
| 14:35.03 | hhf423 | MickeyFinns: it should work in all UK networks given a compatible SIM. AFAIK all UK networks support GSM (call & data) and GPRS, no? |
| 14:35.08 | SpeedEvil | grep - asb does not matche the regex as?b, awk it does. |
| 14:35.25 | MickeyFinns | Because right now there is iPhone problems, O2 are activating 2.5G on their network to allow the iPhone and I got the impression the neo was the sae? |
| 14:35.42 | SpeedEvil | alas no. |
| 14:35.53 | hhf423 | zecke: yeah, well. but then again some children can be a real pain ... |
| 14:35.54 | SpeedEvil | Not this, nor the next version. |
| 14:36.41 | MickeyFinns | So it will operate over the standard networks? |
| 14:36.47 | hhf423 | zecke: I believe that current stats is that part of the behavious is genetics, not all is education, so even if you find a nice women, you never know what you're going to get :-) |
| 14:36.53 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 14:36.55 | SpeedEvil | mick |
| 14:37.31 | MickeyFinns | Ok brilliant. |
| 14:37.42 | hhf423 | MickeyFinns: the .5 in 2.5 which is ment in the iphone context is EDGE. Neo does not do EDGE, only GPRS |
| 14:38.07 | SpeedEvil | Ballpark - you get 4-5Kilobytes/second data transfer. |
| 14:38.12 | SpeedEvil | and 200-2000ms pings |
| 14:38.34 | hhf423 | make that 200-3000+ depending on how busy your line is |
| 14:38.47 | SpeedEvil | I've only seen 2000, but... |
| 14:38.59 | MickeyFinns | hhf423: Ok im reading up the wiki on Edge right now, new to mobile communication standards haha. |
| 14:39.09 | mjr | yeah |
| 14:39.19 | hhf423 | I have seen 3000+ when I was doing ipkg update/upgrade over GPRS at the same time |
| 14:40.00 | mjr | neo won't be the fastest cell web browser, alas; at least it's good for plenty of nifty presence and stuff |
| 14:40.01 | hhf423 | MickeyFinns: EDGE is sort of a enhanced and optimized GPRS |
| 14:40.25 | mjr | *nod* |
| 14:40.26 | MickeyFinns | hhf423: Just seems to be higher bandwith. |
| 14:40.28 | *** join/#openmoko zdanek (n=b@ams122.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 14:40.28 | polz | how do I get mokomakefile to update the list of packages, without building openmoko-devel-image ? |
| 14:40.41 | zdanek | hello |
| 14:40.46 | mjr | high-end edge sort of qualifies as 3g for bw... |
| 14:40.46 | polz | I'd just like to build a task depending on all the packages and have the list rebuilt |
| 14:41.01 | hhf423 | mjr: right. I don't really need YouTube on my mobile, presence stuff, IM, mail download, web pages, discussion boards, irc etc. |
| 14:41.25 | hhf423 | mjr: the only thing where better-than-GPRS would be nice is google maps etc. |
| 14:41.26 | mjr | colloquially edge is sometimes called 2.75G |
| 14:42.02 | SpeedEvil | oh - no, there it goes. |
| 14:42.09 | hhf423 | MickeyFinns: well, "just", year. Tell that to yourself when you wait for google maps to show you your location |
| 14:42.13 | hhf423 | SpeedEvil: the wiki is down |
| 14:42.22 | MickeyFinns | So do any of you guys have any advice for someone interested in developing apps for OpenMoko? |
| 14:42.26 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Server:Proxy would greatly improve browsing performance. |
| 14:42.29 | hhf423 | oh, back up |
| 14:42.37 | mjr | (hell, I'm on gprs right now, on a laptop tether; web browsing is still usable, if not quite snappy...) |
| 14:42.51 | SpeedEvil | As in often an order of magnitude. |
| 14:43.09 | SpeedEvil | Compressing pages based on differentials between the page and the cached page |
| 14:43.11 | *** join/#openmoko ich (n=ich@gprs-pool-1-008.eplus-online.de) |
| 14:43.29 | rwhitby | hhf423: how do I do the initial pairing when the neo is a bt client to a pand NAP ? |
| 14:43.38 | zdanek | does anybody know how to add an application shortcut to list in OpenMoko "plus" icon (I don't know how to call it) |
| 14:43.48 | hhf423 | mjr: sure, that works. I have been on a train HH - Cologne once, had GPRS all the time (5h) and could do basically anything. As long as the connection is stable a little waiting is not an issue |
| 14:44.17 | mjr | hhf423, yeah I'm on gprs on train trips all the time also |
| 14:44.39 | mjr | but don't get me wrong, when the neo is a resounding success and they'll make a 3g version, I'm first in line ;) |
| 14:45.21 | MickeyFinns | I was reading about cameras being a no go on the neo because it allows them to keep the corporate market? Anyone know any facts to do with this? |
| 14:45.22 | aloril | There is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware for details on what is included. Also see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (also some model next year probably will gave camera module: http://www.channelweb.co.uk/vnunet/news/2192036/first-open-source-mobile-phone ) |
| 14:45.23 | Kero | oh joy, now my old phone says the sim is blocked. and gives me no way to enter any sort of code. |
| 14:45.23 | hhf423 | rwhitby: it should do that on its own when you do the pand -c . As in, nothing required on the Neo, but on the host you need to accept the pairing and type in the key you defined in /etc/bluetooth/hicbla.conf |
| 14:45.28 | SpeedEvil | It would be nice to have the compressing server working. Ebay - for example - the pages are dynamic. If you download every time you get a change, you get 60K download. Compressed, it's 15K, compressed according to the difference between the current and cached version, and it's under a K |
| 14:45.45 | hhf423 | mjr: and I'll be breathing down your neck :-) |
| 14:45.46 | mjr | SpeedEvil, *nod* |
| 14:45.51 | rwhitby | hhf423: what if the host is a router with no console? |
| 14:45.59 | *** join/#openmoko ccube (n=ccube@87.230.22.107) |
| 14:46.58 | hhf423 | rwhitby: then probably the bt keys in both configs must match |
| 14:47.52 | hhf423 | rwhitby: when I was PANd'ing to my UMTS phone, I only ever had to key the bt pin into the UMTS phone |
| 14:48.28 | rwhitby | right, but I'm PANing to an nslu2, which does not have a GUI, so no obvious way to type in a PIN |
| 14:49.02 | hhf423 | rwhitby: or maybe the nsls2 has some "acceppt all bt connections" mode? |
| 14:49.26 | rwhitby | hhf423: how would you do it if you were connecting from one neo to another - that's basically the case here. |
| 14:49.45 | rwhitby | (since the nslu2 is running the exact same bluez-utils built from OE that the neo runs) |
| 14:50.09 | hhf423 | rwhitby: I would first try to set the bt key to the same on both .conf |
| 14:50.21 | hhf423 | rwhitby: does that not work? |
| 14:50.34 | rwhitby | that does not work |
| 14:50.38 | mjr | MickeyFinns, since you're not getting facts, I'll just hypothesize that the no-camera design is inherited and the usual business-friendly comments are just to point out that it's not purely bad. But I dunno. |
| 14:51.10 | hhf423 | rwhitby: did you try to pair via that hidtool? |
| 14:51.22 | hhf423 | rwhitby: ah, forget that thought |
| 14:51.30 | rwhitby | one can easily imagine that a design that started out for the Chinese government might not have a camera in it ;-) |
| 14:52.44 | *** join/#openmoko ecraven (n=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 14:52.57 | MickeyFinns | mjr: Ok thanks, personally its not an issue from a consumer perspective but it would be alot of fun to code apps that utilize it. |
| 14:54.18 | mjr | as for me, the powered usb host in gta02 is quite sufficient for camera needs - I gave a good quality pocket cam with me anyways , and that allows me to transfer pics if necessary :] |
| 14:54.33 | mjr | (yesyes, not universally applicable) |
| 14:55.01 | SpeedEvil | 3-axis Accelerometer, powered USB |
| 14:55.03 | Lynet | rwhitby: I'd be more worried about a censorship and wiretap module, amazing that roughlydrafted didn't pick up on that one. |
| 14:55.25 | MickeyFinns | doesn't the gta02 have a fast processor aswell? |
| 14:55.31 | SpeedEvil | Faster |
| 14:55.34 | SpeedEvil | 1.5* |
| 14:55.41 | MickeyFinns | 266 -> 400 ? |
| 14:55.46 | ghiottone | rwhitby, do you want an email with the new patch? or still a pastebin? |
| 14:55.58 | SpeedEvil | yes MickeyFinns |
| 14:56.10 | rwhitby | ghiottone: better email - I won't be getting to it tonight |
| 14:56.53 | ghiottone | rwhitby, ok. what's the address? |
| 14:57.00 | hhf423 | hmmm, uploading to scap does not work? |
| 14:57.06 | mjr | but really, though, when these phone things are entrenched, I want an openmoko pocket cam; this panasonic thingy, while technically good, has some "fuck you" software limitations |
| 14:57.15 | rwhitby | ghiottone: check /msg |
| 14:57.27 | SpeedEvil | I can't understand why nobody makes a bluetooth camera. |
| 14:57.30 | ghiottone | rwhitby, I'm leaving shortly. So I probably won't work anymore on it till tomorrow |
| 14:57.36 | mjr | SpeedEvil, yeah, and there's that |
| 14:57.45 | SpeedEvil | ˆWell - they do |
| 14:57.50 | SpeedEvil | If you spend insane money |
| 14:57.59 | mjr | I was just about to say |
| 14:58.05 | mjr | also wifi |
| 14:58.14 | SpeedEvil | wifi is another issue |
| 14:58.15 | mjr | but bt should be cheap |
| 14:58.17 | SpeedEvil | wifi is much higher power |
| 14:58.30 | *** join/#openmoko cyphi (n=cyphi@a91-153-116-247.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 14:58.34 | SpeedEvil | I mean something like a megapixel camera with BT |
| 14:58.43 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 14:58.43 | mjr | *nod* |
| 15:00.31 | SpeedEvil | Multimegapixel would be nice, but I don't want 10 megapixel with replacement lenses, that works underwater. Which seems basically the only things that have BT. |
| 15:00.49 | mjr | indeed |
| 15:01.12 | mjr | I'd want a high-end pocketcam with bt, though, but even those seemed nonexistent |
| 15:01.33 | mjr | it's the "real" high end where there's wireless comms, not "consumer" high-end |
| 15:02.38 | mjr | but yeah, when when they have this cell phone market down pat, an openmoko cam. Yes. |
| 15:02.48 | MickeyFinns | Is multi-touch likely anytime soon? |
| 15:03.13 | mjr | no |
| 15:03.33 | SpeedEvil | Multitouch means new hardware |
| 15:03.38 | MickeyFinns | Shame, you think the tech would be alot cheaper now since the iPhone. |
| 15:05.05 | rwhitby | nope, probably more expensive due it being patented up the wazoo |
| 15:05.31 | MickeyFinns | True true. |
| 15:06.24 | ghiottone | nite rwhitby |
| 15:06.28 | ghiottone | and goodbye all |
| 15:08.26 | *** join/#openmoko zell1983 (n=zell1983@host12-124-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 15:09.03 | *** join/#openmoko jpcass (n=chatzill@johnkerry.plus.com) |
| 15:12.26 | *** join/#openmoko _diego__ (n=diego@host-84-222-16-157.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) |
| 15:16.37 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@gprs-pool-1-001.eplus-online.de) |
| 15:20.03 | *** join/#openmoko no_mind (n=shark@59.176.111.177) |
| 15:20.18 | hhf423 | night rwhitby , bye ghiottone |
| 15:23.00 | *** join/#openmoko _buz (n=buz@84-73-66-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 15:23.38 | MickeyFinns | Are there any plans to implement VoIP with the wifi in the new Neo? |
| 15:26.04 | anrp | vague ideas, sure |
| 15:26.27 | MickeyFinns | Its surely feasable. |
| 15:26.48 | hhf423 | MickeyFinns: you can ipkg install asterisk today... :-) |
| 15:27.02 | MickeyFinns | ? |
| 15:27.31 | *** join/#openmoko Cyorxamp (i=Cyorxamp@212.57.229.111) |
| 15:27.43 | Cyorxamp | Lo, I want one, I want one, I want one :D |
| 15:28.06 | Cyorxamp | But... UK guy here, does it work fine (in terms of GPRS and GSM) over here and is there any UK sellers of this yet? |
| 15:28.06 | aloril | Cyorxamp: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 15:28.22 | MickeyFinns | I jsut asked this question haha, |
| 15:28.27 | Cyorxamp | The UK one? |
| 15:28.30 | MickeyFinns | Yeah |
| 15:28.36 | Cyorxamp | What was the answer? |
| 15:28.49 | cjb_ie | there's plenty of european developers, functionality sounds like it's slowly coming together |
| 15:29.02 | Cyorxamp | Nah not developers... sellers :P |
| 15:29.03 | MickeyFinns | In terms of supply you have to buy from the original site. |
| 15:29.08 | Cyorxamp | AH ok, fair enough |
| 15:29.28 | cjb_ie | Cyorxamp: i'm talking in terms of it working on european GSM networks. |
| 15:29.42 | MickeyFinns | Release is next month and you might find them here in some stores although i doubt it. |
| 15:29.43 | Cyorxamp | I presume that when the final one comes out, it'll be more software changes that will self-update than anything lacking hardware-wise ? |
| 15:30.09 | MickeyFinns | Its more a network problem than the device |
| 15:30.10 | cjb_ie | there's a new hardware rev coming out in a few months with wifi and other features |
| 15:30.34 | MickeyFinns | The phone will work fine with calls and text, however, the quality of the GPRS is limited. |
| 15:30.38 | Cyorxamp | cjb_ie: Oh yeah wifi... oops, forgot about that - I'll wait |
| 15:30.55 | *** join/#openmoko Gybrush (n=Gybrush@port-87-234-84-205.dynamic.qsc.de) |
| 15:30.56 | MickeyFinns | But with the new Wifi GPRS is less of an issue if your in a city or office etc. |
| 15:31.17 | MickeyFinns | Definately wait for the new revision. |
| 15:31.30 | Cyorxamp | Yup, I nearly bought an N800 a few weeks back |
| 15:31.49 | Cyorxamp | With Sharp out of the arena... it's Nokia or OpenMoko |
| 15:31.52 | MickeyFinns | You planning to develop or just use? |
| 15:31.56 | Cyorxamp | Both :D |
| 15:31.57 | hhf423 | I got myself a N700 so cheap as they are. very nice device |
| 15:31.57 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@p508DB74E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 15:32.20 | MickeyFinns | Same haha, you a student or something? |
| 15:32.29 | *** join/#openmoko khaoohs (n=khaoohs@74-129-4-11.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 15:32.44 | Cyorxamp | Ended uni err about a year ago now |
| 15:32.58 | Cyorxamp | I currently use a Zaurus 5500 |
| 15:33.08 | MickeyFinns | You study Comp Sci? |
| 15:33.14 | Cyorxamp | Software Engineering |
| 15:33.59 | MickeyFinns | Nice about to choose my Masters and Software Engineering is an option. Where did you study? |
| 15:34.16 | Cyorxamp | Bradford, and no - I don't recommend there :P |
| 15:34.53 | MickeyFinns | haha. Nah im about to start my second year and they want Masters decisions before xmas. Looking at Computational Management. |
| 15:35.21 | Cyorxamp | So are we talking October for the Wifi version or after Xmas? |
| 15:35.39 | *** join/#openmoko Unleashed (n=alex@89.129.136.34) |
| 15:35.42 | MickeyFinns | Current date is December, but might get delayed. |
| 15:35.55 | *** join/#openmoko vallor (n=Rock@pdpc/supporter/monthlygold/vallor) |
| 15:36.10 | Cyorxamp | Ok, I'll consider it a xmas present :D |
| 15:36.17 | *** join/#openmoko no_mind_ (n=shark@59.176.111.177) |
| 15:36.18 | *** join/#openmoko Pupeno- (n=Pupeno@89-125-118-103.dhcp-ripwave.irishbroadband.ie) |
| 15:36.19 | MickeyFinns | Thats what im hoping haha. |
| 15:36.38 | MickeyFinns | You can download an emulator if you want to start developing. |
| 15:36.41 | Cyorxamp | I take it apart from the N800... theres nothing else even close? |
| 15:36.44 | *** join/#openmoko Ophelia (n=Ophelia@pD9EA9D2F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 15:37.12 | MickeyFinns | the GreenPhone? And if google goes ahead with GPhone, although not sure how open that will be. |
| 15:37.31 | MickeyFinns | Also the iphone hackers will have it open for devlopment in 6 months or something. |
| 15:37.51 | Cyorxamp | Nah don't like GreenPhone - looks like well.. a Phone |
| 15:37.58 | MickeyFinns | Heres the emulator; |
| 15:37.59 | MickeyFinns | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU |
| 15:38.03 | Cyorxamp | I like the PDA first... Phone second approach |
| 15:38.42 | MickeyFinns | Yeah |
| 15:39.10 | Cyorxamp | http://www.phoronix.com/?page=news_item&px=NTk1Mw |
| 15:39.22 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
| 15:39.24 | hhf423 | the N800 does not have GSM/GPRS, no? |
| 15:39.29 | Cyorxamp | Nope |
| 15:39.50 | MickeyFinns | To be honest i wouldnt be in the market if this device didnt have the ease of devlopment. Im a student cant justify £350 on a device just for use haha gotta fiddle with it for it to be worth it. |
| 15:39.59 | *** join/#openmoko no_mind_ (n=shark@59.176.111.177) |
| 15:40.34 | Cyorxamp | So far I've been a Jornada 928 user (one of the first PDA/Phones) and now just a plan PDA user of the Sharp 5500 with seperate Nokia phone |
| 15:40.36 | hhf423 | 350 quid? its dollars |
| 15:40.44 | Cyorxamp | So to combine them again, with Linux - bliss |
| 15:41.04 | MickeyFinns | The new Advance kit will be $600 plus shipping and VAT. Will be like £350 |
| 15:42.33 | *** join/#openmoko raboof (i=arnouten@vhe-520116.sshn.net) |
| 15:43.06 | Cyorxamp | http://www.fonearena.com/blog/2007/08/31/is-gphone-is-openmoko.html |
| 15:43.16 | Cyorxamp | Umm, is that picture real? Is that a gPhone ? |
| 15:43.27 | *** join/#openmoko hp__ (n=hp@rhuidean.student.utwente.nl) |
| 15:43.46 | MickeyFinns | Dont be silly haha. |
| 15:44.00 | Cyorxamp | :D |
| 15:44.08 | MickeyFinns | http://www.pocketpicks.co.uk/latest/index.php/2007/03/13/g-phone-image-sparks-fresh-rumours/ |
| 15:44.16 | MickeyFinns | this one is more likely, although its crap. |
| 15:44.46 | hhf423 | MickeyFinns: ah, ok, if you need the advance kit... you are planning to to kernel development? |
| 15:45.41 | MickeyFinns | I would like to, in my third year 08/09 of my degree we have to build a Linux based OS and i was planning to do app developemnt until then and them switch to kernal. |
| 15:45.43 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@cpc2-darl3-0-0-cust237.midd.cable.ntl.com) |
| 15:46.25 | hhf423 | then probably advance kit is necessary |
| 15:46.51 | dcordes | another Mickey |
| 15:46.52 | MickeyFinns | Yeah, il probably start tinkering before |
| 15:47.02 | MickeyFinns | the OS module starts. |
| 15:49.26 | Cyorxamp | Right now I flee, good chatting :D |
| 15:51.11 | SpeedEvil | The iphone hackers may or may not have their hacked versions open. If apple however chooses to, they can completely close all the holes, and turn off network access to the hacked phones. |
| 15:51.34 | SpeedEvil | Feline in, Feline out. |
| 15:51.36 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 15:52.17 | Lynet | Is that equivalent to GIGO? |
| 15:52.34 | cjb_ie | or maybe just a cat flap |
| 15:52.53 | SpeedEvil | No, someone said something .......cut buffer... |
| 15:53.01 | SpeedEvil | and I commented that I misread it as cat buffer |
| 15:53.04 | SpeedEvil | mischan |
| 15:53.13 | *** part/#openmoko raboof (i=arnouten@vhe-520116.sshn.net) |
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| 16:05.45 | ScaredyCat | miew |
| 16:12.17 | bedboi | any rumors about shipment date? |
| 16:12.36 | hhf423 | not heard anything |
| 16:12.41 | *** join/#openmoko keesj_ (n=keesj@ip49-193-210-87.adsl2.versatel.nl) |
| 16:12.46 | SpeedEvil | December 23 |
| 16:12.55 | bedboi | damn it must be some rumors. It's 16, the guy of the sales told me it was Sep 20... |
| 16:12.59 | SpeedEvil | Entrail-reading is a valuable IT skill. |
| 16:12.59 | MickeyFinns | Just in time for xmas haha. |
| 16:13.26 | bedboi | SpeedEvil: i'm talking about GTA01 |
| 16:13.33 | MickeyFinns | ah |
| 16:13.50 | MickeyFinns | Thats early october last i read. |
| 16:14.26 | mwester | bedboi: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280151760236&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=018 |
| 16:14.50 | bedboi | Your order is still fine so far. But we are temporarily short of stock. |
| 16:14.50 | bedboi | Our next batch have enough amount to fulfill everyone, the ETA is |
| 16:14.50 | bedboi | September 20. |
| 16:15.40 | Knirch | still 20th then, oki, been bouncing a bit |
| 16:16.23 | bedboi | i've asked what ETA means |
| 16:16.37 | bedboi | is it a forecast, or is it a real date |
| 16:16.48 | tuukkah | estimated time of arrival |
| 16:16.52 | bedboi | is it "around 20+1month" |
| 16:17.31 | bedboi | if it is 20+max(6 days) it's ok with me, otherwise i won't be able to receive the package |
| 16:17.37 | bedboi | which is REALLY too bad |
| 16:18.13 | *** join/#openmoko Maledictus (n=Malebob@f048065057.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:18.21 | hhf423 | I think with ETA they mean when its in the US |
| 16:18.58 | bedboi | that would be good. i'm in the US 'till oct 6th |
| 16:18.58 | hhf423 | then they have to unpack, repack, bill you and ship it. Which will take more than 6 days. |
| 16:19.06 | bedboi | LOL |
| 16:19.17 | bedboi | hhf423: make a tribal dance? |
| 16:20.10 | hhf423 | sorry, it = "the shipment" from wherever to FIC US. Thats a container or something with all the phones. Nor your individual phone. |
| 16:20.11 | bedboi | i clearly stated "I'll cancel the order, the guy didn't tell me anything about packing/unpacking" |
| 16:20.16 | cesarb | (from the IRC backlog) |
| 16:20.28 | cesarb | Kero: it's X itself which uses cpp for some obscure purpose |
| 16:20.43 | cesarb | polz: make build-package-package-index |
| 16:22.31 | hhf423 | I am just guessing. But so far when the OpenMoko guys talked about shipping, they always meant the shipment from the factory to the US, not individual phones. These guys totally do not get it and totally do not answer questions from a customer perspective. I mean, what does a customer care what their internal logistics are? We only want to know when they will be shipping stuff to individual... |
| 16:22.33 | hhf423 | ...customers. |
| 16:22.41 | *** join/#openmoko chris^^ (n=kraetzi@p548AC1E3.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:23.31 | bedboi | hhf423: yep exactly. I don't care nothing about internal stuff. I want to know when my damn pseudo-phone will arrive. |
| 16:23.44 | bedboi | because i have real issues |
| 16:24.03 | bedboi | if the package arrives after oct 6th i'm fucked up |
| 16:24.29 | tuukkah | bedboi, perhaps you can give them your new address? |
| 16:25.09 | ScaredyCat | you want him to give away his secret lair location? |
| 16:25.21 | hhf423 | The point is, when I hear "We are shipping the phones next week", I think "oh, shipping phones via UPS to us, the customers." but they actually mean "FIC taiwan ships to FIC USA where the container needs to go through customs, then needs to be unpacked, customers need to be billed and after billing went through, stuff gets shipped via UPS" |
| 16:25.34 | ScaredyCat | how can he rule the world if everyone knows where hs secret base is |
| 16:26.00 | bedboi | tuukkah: my new address is in italy |
| 16:26.19 | tuukkah | bedboi, shouldn't matter |
| 16:26.26 | hhf423 | bedboi: so let the phone be shipped to italy. italy is not a problem. |
| 16:26.29 | bedboi | tuukkah: it matters |
| 16:26.30 | *** join/#openmoko fgau (n=fgau@pD953AC90.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:26.37 | ScaredyCat | hhf423: not to mention the face the non US people effectively susidised the cost for the US people |
| 16:26.38 | bedboi | it costs me +60$ |
| 16:26.50 | ScaredyCat | s/face/fact/ |
| 16:27.00 | *** join/#openmoko sandos (n=sandos@83.233.97.210) |
| 16:27.13 | cjb_ie | ScaredyCat: how so? |
| 16:27.19 | hhf423 | ScaredyCat: do you think so? probably shipping via UPS from US is one of the cheapest ways |
| 16:27.31 | tuukkah | bedboi, yeah like it costs everyone else on this planet not in america |
| 16:28.01 | ScaredyCat | because the whole lot was shipped to the US |
| 16:28.17 | hhf423 | ScaredyCat: the interesting question is probably if most of the phones go to US people |
| 16:28.22 | ScaredyCat | so non us people effectively paid shipping for the us people |
| 16:28.23 | bedboi | tuukkah: for me is insane to pay 80$ for shipment. |
| 16:28.29 | bedboi | s/is/it's/ |
| 16:28.42 | hhf423 | but its not 80 anymore I think |
| 16:28.48 | hhf423 | its less than 50 |
| 16:29.10 | tuukkah | bedboi, welcome to europe :-) more seriously, we all hope the phones arrive soon |
| 16:29.40 | *** join/#openmoko poke (n=1@net12.mlyniec.gda.pl) |
| 16:30.16 | *** part/#openmoko poke (n=1@net12.mlyniec.gda.pl) |
| 16:30.20 | hhf423 | bedboi: get a Neo from ebay |
| 16:30.37 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AC1E3.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:31.53 | *** join/#openmoko Devestate (n=Devestat@75.129.169.81) |
| 16:32.14 | hhf423 | shipping to europe is 50 USD |
| 16:32.17 | *** join/#openmoko der_io (n=der@p54A0F72A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:32.24 | SpeedEvil | Though practically, I suppose VAT'd kill that. |
| 16:32.35 | SpeedEvil | Actually - not - thinking about it. |
| 16:32.51 | PBeck | hm would it be possible to add a 4 gb microsd card to the scope of delivery? I think fic can buy the cards in large masses and can save a few dollars. |
| 16:33.12 | cjb_ie | SpeedEvil: well, EU recipients have to pay VAT anyway if stuff comes from outside EU |
| 16:33.13 | SpeedEvil | PBeck: I really doubt it. |
| 16:33.20 | SpeedEvil | cjb_ie: yes, I realised that |
| 16:34.09 | raster | SpeedEvil: you just want to syphone off phones and list them as "lost" and build a neo beowulf cluster - don't you? |
| 16:34.10 | raster | :) |
| 16:34.13 | PBeck | SpeedEvil: a 4 gb card would be cool :) |
| 16:34.24 | SpeedEvil | Naah. |
| 16:34.41 | PBeck | SpeedEvil: perhaps accessories? |
| 16:34.56 | ScaredyCat | syphone .... hehhe what an appropriate spelling mistake |
| 16:35.06 | raster | cjb_ie: unless you bring it in personally on your person and its under some maximum declaration limit\ |
| 16:35.12 | hhf423 | ah, I think it was even less than 40 EUR |
| 16:36.06 | raster | ScaredyCat: intentional :) |
| 16:39.44 | Kero | remind me, what does `neod` do? |
| 16:40.04 | raster | follows the white rabbit |
| 16:40.08 | raster | on request |
| 16:40.38 | cjb_ie | after taking a pill that's either red or blue? |
| 16:42.14 | tuukkah | Kero, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neod |
| 16:42.20 | Kero | must be running fast. it decided to take 100% cpu for it |
| 16:42.29 | *** join/#openmoko iwkse (n=iwkse@151.53.31.50) |
| 16:43.14 | Kero | with all this gsmd messing aroun, I'm starting to think I messed up my image a bit... |
| 16:43.20 | *** join/#openmoko dcordes_ (n=tsingtao@e179102055.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:43.54 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@X0e9a.x.pppool.de) |
| 16:47.24 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 16:50.11 | bedboi | Do you know how to cancel? |
| 16:50.16 | *** join/#openmoko Henrikw (n=henrik@56.84-48-193.nextgentel.com) |
| 16:50.22 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 16:50.25 | bedboi | i mean how to cancel the order |
| 16:51.36 | bedboi | i've just sent a mail, i hope it's enough |
| 16:55.21 | raster | bedboi: how long ago did you put your order in? |
| 17:00.11 | bedboi | raster: two weeks ago |
| 17:00.29 | raster | ooh |
| 17:00.32 | raster | thats not long |
| 17:00.36 | bedboi | i'm not saying i'm waiting for too long |
| 17:00.40 | *** join/#openmoko peepsalot (n=peeps@cpe-72-177-114-179.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 17:00.47 | bedboi | but i have problems with shipment |
| 17:00.55 | raster | i have seen deliveries from the states to the australia take 3-4 weeks |
| 17:00.56 | raster | direct |
| 17:01.02 | bedboi | i'm quite sure the item won't arrive BEFORE oct 6th |
| 17:01.12 | raster | they can spend a week just futzing around and getting it to .au |
| 17:01.17 | raster | then sitting in customs for weeks |
| 17:01.30 | bedboi | i'm in the US 'till that day |
| 17:01.50 | bedboi | then i'm back in italy. |
| 17:01.52 | raster | do u have a friend u can divert it to? |
| 17:02.16 | raster | whats the delivery status? |
| 17:02.18 | bedboi | the problem is then the shipment to italy or to france. I'm in a really nomadic situation |
| 17:02.23 | raster | (sorry i'm not up on the status) |
| 17:02.33 | raster | oh |
| 17:02.34 | bedboi | raster: ahaha, that's the QUESTION |
| 17:02.45 | raster | get6ting anything delivered when you are nomadic is impossible |
| 17:02.48 | raster | i'd never even bother |
| 17:02.52 | raster | i've tried before |
| 17:03.07 | raster | from "your credit card address does not match your shippign address" |
| 17:03.09 | raster | propblems |
| 17:03.19 | raster | to "it's delivered but sitting in customs for weeks" problems |
| 17:03.21 | bedboi | no no. here i have a bank accoun |
| 17:03.22 | bedboi | t |
| 17:03.30 | raster | i have learnt not to bother unless u are settled |
| 17:03.36 | raster | sure |
| 17:03.45 | raster | my point is that its a minefiled of problems |
| 17:03.54 | bedboi | raster: this won't happen before feb 2008 |
| 17:03.57 | raster | so have you checked on delivery status? |
| 17:04.06 | bedboi | raster: there's no delivery status to check |
| 17:04.12 | raster | have you asked? |
| 17:04.15 | bedboi | all is managed by mails |
| 17:04.20 | raster | sure |
| 17:04.27 | raster | send a mail off to find out what the status is |
| 17:04.31 | raster | for all you know its a week away |
| 17:04.31 | bedboi | Your order is still fine so far. But we are temporarily short of stock. |
| 17:04.31 | bedboi | Our next batch have enough amount to fulfill everyone, the ETA is |
| 17:04.31 | bedboi | September 20. |
| 17:04.36 | bedboi | this is the last one i received. |
| 17:04.44 | bedboi | the problem is what ETA means. |
| 17:04.51 | bedboi | that's the whole point. |
| 17:04.51 | raster | sept 20 beats oct6 by a fair margin |
| 17:04.58 | bedboi | no, it doesn't |
| 17:04.58 | raster | ok sure |
| 17:05.08 | raster | lets assume ETA is within 3 days either side |
| 17:05.13 | raster | thats still a big margin |
| 17:05.17 | bedboi | nope. |
| 17:05.43 | bedboi | on the website it was written that the next batch will be shipped on sept 10th |
| 17:05.46 | bedboi | which is not the case |
| 17:05.51 | bedboi | so i can't trust |
| 17:06.15 | raster | shipped |
| 17:06.18 | raster | leaving factory |
| 17:06.18 | bedboi | ah excuse me, it is stated "not before sept 10th" |
| 17:06.19 | raster | most likely |
| 17:06.30 | bedboi | not before is just lower bound |
| 17:06.31 | raster | andf arrivign sept 20 in the states is not unreasonable |
| 17:06.37 | bedboi | people MUST state upper bounds |
| 17:06.51 | bedboi | yea but i have no feedback |
| 17:06.55 | raster | but their ARRIVAL eta is 20th |
| 17:06.59 | bedboi | control without feedback is impossible |
| 17:07.05 | raster | intl shipping can never give and exact date |
| 17:07.07 | raster | ever |
| 17:07.12 | raster | customs basically stop that |
| 17:07.20 | raster | sure |
| 17:07.21 | bedboi | raster: that's why i'm canceling |
| 17:07.32 | raster | i understand your furstration |
| 17:07.37 | bedboi | :) |
| 17:07.41 | cjb_ie | what's the reason for shipping via the US anyway? |
| 17:08.01 | raster | but maybe you want to contact and find out the status first |
| 17:08.11 | raster | then if need be, cancel |
| 17:08.24 | raster | it is unfair on openmoko to in-fath ship a product |
| 17:08.32 | raster | and afte4r incurring the costs to ship it |
| 17:08.35 | raster | have you cancel it |
| 17:08.53 | *** join/#openmoko madwoota (n=mad@woota.net) |
| 17:08.54 | raster | and then even pay to chip it back? |
| 17:08.59 | raster | incur customs duties |
| 17:09.00 | raster | etc. |
| 17:09.07 | bedboi | no no. |
| 17:09.23 | bedboi | i didn't receive any reply since 2 days |
| 17:09.32 | raster | its a weekend |
| 17:09.36 | *** join/#openmoko white_gecko (n=natanael@1Cust155.tnt4.ber2.deu.da.uu.net) |
| 17:09.38 | bedboi | which is even quite annoying. |
| 17:09.45 | bedboi | damn it's 21st century |
| 17:09.54 | raster | openmoko is a small operation |
| 17:09.56 | raster | right now |
| 17:10.00 | bedboi | even in italy customer care work damn in the weekend |
| 17:10.01 | raster | only a few people working on it |
| 17:10.08 | bedboi | it's so simple to just check mails |
| 17:10.09 | SpeedEvil | openmoko is a small operation. |
| 17:10.09 | raster | they dont have a "customer care" dept |
| 17:10.18 | raster | they dont even have departments |
| 17:10.20 | raster | it is very small |
| 17:10.26 | SpeedEvil | Posting a line of status per week, per dev is not however hard. |
| 17:10.27 | raster | its a few people - a startup. |
| 17:10.29 | SpeedEvil | Or time consuming |
| 17:10.46 | raster | so give them a bit of slack |
| 17:10.52 | raster | and wait until monday |
| 17:10.56 | cjb_ie | how much would it cost to hire one office admin to take care of all the stuff the devs don't want to know about? |
| 17:11.07 | raster | by the time you wake up monday - they may have a response |
| 17:11.17 | raster | cjb_ie: no idea |
| 17:11.34 | bedboi | by that time i won't be able to ebay the neo |
| 17:11.39 | bedboi | :) |
| 17:12.09 | raster | all i can say is |
| 17:12.13 | raster | i have met the moko guys |
| 17:12.15 | raster | its a SMALL op |
| 17:12.19 | raster | they are building up |
| 17:12.31 | raster | so they are going through growing pains |
| 17:12.34 | SpeedEvil | Small does not mean you have to give the impression of incompetence. |
| 17:12.37 | raster | even trying to set up a working office |
| 17:12.41 | raster | and still meet delivery dates |
| 17:12.46 | raster | SpeedEvil: true |
| 17:12.49 | bedboi | SpeedEvil: i damn agree with you |
| 17:12.50 | SpeedEvil | which the direct.openmoko.com page does to a large extent |
| 17:12.58 | anrp | ooh, harsh |
| 17:13.19 | SpeedEvil | To those who don't understand how small the team is I mean. |
| 17:13.21 | raster | but expecting an answer on a weekend from a small team and being upset you didnt get it is a little much |
| 17:13.23 | iwkse | hi, i didn't find on the website any link to get the sources, where's that? |
| 17:13.25 | raster | maybe i'm just too forgiving/patient |
| 17:13.26 | raster | :) |
| 17:13.57 | bedboi | raster: no, i have a small company. i work EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE |
| 17:14.13 | bedboi | i can't expect having day offs |
| 17:14.22 | bedboi | not a single one. |
| 17:14.28 | bedboi | it's normal when you are small |
| 17:14.31 | raster | the peolpe who see your emails for cusotmer support are not woners |
| 17:14.33 | bedboi | it makes sense. |
| 17:14.36 | raster | of a single man company |
| 17:14.39 | raster | they are staff |
| 17:14.41 | raster | (i think) |
| 17:14.49 | Kero | bedboi: that's a choice every small company can take for itself. |
| 17:14.53 | raster | and they get paid to work mon-fri 9-5 |
| 17:14.55 | raster | or whatever |
| 17:15.14 | raster | dont get me wrong |
| 17:15.20 | raster | i understand you are frustrated |
| 17:15.28 | raster | but just give them a chance |
| 17:15.32 | raster | be a little patient |
| 17:15.55 | SpeedEvil | A little patient - several months of no word on shipment times... |
| 17:16.06 | bedboi | yep that's not patience :) |
| 17:16.06 | anrp | hehe |
| 17:16.08 | bedboi | it's stupidity |
| 17:16.19 | raster | not sure about that |
| 17:16.24 | raster | but the specifics i hear here are |
| 17:16.28 | raster | 2 weeks aog order placed |
| 17:16.32 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-190-222.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 17:16.33 | bedboi | raster: nope |
| 17:16.34 | raster | eta of sept 20 given |
| 17:16.38 | bedboi | rabble: wait a moment |
| 17:16.40 | raster | thats what you said? |
| 17:16.54 | raster | <raster> bedboi: how long ago did you put your order in? |
| 17:16.54 | raster | <bedboi> raster: two weeks ago |
| 17:16.56 | bedboi | i'm waiting for GTA01 since 4 months. then i decided |
| 17:17.14 | bedboi | when all this shipment delays came up |
| 17:17.27 | bedboi | i decided "ok i won't place an oreder now" |
| 17:17.32 | bedboi | i'll wait for the next batch |
| 17:17.48 | bedboi | raster: and it is not a matter of how much you are waiting for |
| 17:17.51 | bedboi | it's nonsense |
| 17:17.54 | raster | but you didnt lace an order until 2 weeks ago? |
| 17:18.11 | bedboi | yep. |
| 17:18.13 | raster | until you place an order - it's pretty moot imho. |
| 17:18.44 | anrp | do you blame him for not wanting to stick $ into a machine without knowing if/when results will appear? |
| 17:18.44 | raster | until then its just wishing and hoping. |
| 17:18.58 | bedboi | anrp: yep that's the case |
| 17:18.59 | raster | people did that for years for the ps3 |
| 17:19.00 | raster | and wii |
| 17:19.02 | raster | and 360 |
| 17:19.04 | raster | for example |
| 17:19.06 | anrp | ...and? |
| 17:19.07 | bedboi | raster: who cares |
| 17:19.14 | raster | anrp: absolutely not. |
| 17:19.17 | raster | its fair enough |
| 17:19.27 | bedboi | raster: that does not make a point |
| 17:19.35 | raster | it does |
| 17:19.38 | raster | until you make an order |
| 17:19.55 | raster | you have not said "deliver me one of your goodies" |
| 17:19.56 | bedboi | the stuff was sold out |
| 17:20.13 | SpeedEvil | Not indicating to potential customers how long they have to wait is insane. In large part, they've overthought the store. |
| 17:20.19 | SpeedEvil | Put the things on ebay. |
| 17:20.33 | SpeedEvil | Lots of cheap ready-canned software. |
| 17:20.41 | SpeedEvil | Live count of how many have sold. |
| 17:20.46 | *** join/#openmoko ckuethe (n=ckuethe@237.209-115-210-0.interbaun.com) |
| 17:21.03 | raster | SpeedEvil: oh - thats another matter entirely :) |
| 17:21.17 | raster | i'm only looking at the specifics of this 1 case |
| 17:21.31 | raster | order placed on 3rd or so of sept |
| 17:21.37 | raster | eta of 20th given |
| 17:21.45 | bedboi | raster: going back on 6th |
| 17:22.18 | bedboi | <raster> get6ting anything delivered when you are nomadic is impossible |
| 17:22.19 | raster | wants to cancel 5 days before delivery (ie when product paid for is probably on a plane or whatever on its way) |
| 17:22.27 | raster | ok |
| 17:22.29 | raster | 6th |
| 17:22.45 | bedboi | raster: what about customs? |
| 17:22.48 | raster | so 6th -> 20th (IF it arrives then) is not unreasonable |
| 17:22.56 | raster | it may be in customs right now |
| 17:22.58 | bedboi | if the whole batch will sit there for 3 weeks |
| 17:23.01 | raster | unless you ASK you dont KNOW |
| 17:23.04 | bedboi | raster: WE DO NOT KNOW |
| 17:23.09 | bedboi | i asked damn |
| 17:23.11 | bedboi | so much time |
| 17:23.12 | cjb_ie | i'd imagine there'll be plenty more buyers to replace the ones who cancel because they're waiting too long |
| 17:23.21 | bedboi | s |
| 17:23.26 | raster | wait until tomorrow |
| 17:23.29 | raster | as i said |
| 17:23.33 | raster | they are a small operation |
| 17:23.53 | raster | give them a bit of slack |
| 17:23.53 | bedboi | i'm not saying they are big, or they have to be perfect. |
| 17:23.59 | raster | and at least wait until monday for your answer |
| 17:24.27 | bedboi | i'm saying in my case, i guess i will end up with spending money and having the package in USA and me in europe (who knows where) |
| 17:24.27 | raster | am just suggesting to be patient |
| 17:24.38 | Sup3rkiddo | hmm...looks like i am outta luck, now gst-plugins-base is borking while building...just a small rant, would it be helpful for others if we set up a wiki page and put the packages that arent compiling...i have compiling for 2 weeks now without luck..=(, mwaaa |
| 17:24.38 | raster | you don't know that yet |
| 17:24.53 | bedboi | raster: i can't trust. |
| 17:24.56 | Sup3rkiddo | i meant put the names of the package |
| 17:24.56 | bedboi | that's the main point. |
| 17:24.57 | Sup3rkiddo | s |
| 17:25.25 | raster | bedboi: indeed. you made a leap of faith of ordering a phone from a company you barely know |
| 17:25.31 | raster | from another corner of the world |
| 17:25.43 | bedboi | :) |
| 17:25.54 | raster | most peolpe wouldnt buy from anything but a big name well known and trusted brand |
| 17:26.22 | raster | but you made the leap of faith - mayaswell see if the trust was placed well when it comes to delivery |
| 17:26.29 | raster | or at least a response |
| 17:27.01 | bedboi | this way i will miss the opportunity to have the phone (ebay) |
| 17:27.41 | *** join/#openmoko ebel (n=rory@213-202-135-29.bas502.dsl.esat.net) |
| 17:28.48 | raster | but why? |
| 17:28.56 | raster | if you had the phone |
| 17:29.03 | raster | you would have what you ordered |
| 17:29.07 | bedboi | btw i think that even if i cancel the order, there will be someone that will be very happy to get mine :) |
| 17:29.15 | raster | why sell it on ebay unless you dont want it? |
| 17:29.21 | raster | sure |
| 17:29.23 | raster | there might be |
| 17:29.30 | raster | but most companies that deliver |
| 17:29.36 | raster | if you cancel while its in delivery |
| 17:29.48 | bedboi | no they are sending the batch |
| 17:29.49 | *** join/#openmoko MuffY (n=chatzill@s55928932.adsl.wanadoo.nl) |
| 17:29.49 | raster | they will charge you to send it back |
| 17:30.07 | *** join/#openmoko ScaredyCat (n=andy@net-pbx.demon.nl) |
| 17:30.09 | bedboi | "Our next batch have enough amount to fulfill everyone" |
| 17:30.11 | raster | and refund you only the amount left |
| 17:30.16 | bedboi | they are sending the whole stuff |
| 17:30.17 | raster | after delivery there and back costs |
| 17:30.30 | raster | there still are delivery costs |
| 17:30.51 | SpeedEvil | There is a seperate 'your neo has shipped' email |
| 17:30.55 | SpeedEvil | with tracking numbers |
| 17:31.00 | juri_ | i found shipping very supportive when my phone ended up in germany, while i'm in the USA. |
| 17:31.15 | raster | juri_: you emailed them for help? |
| 17:31.28 | *** join/#openmoko FreePBX7700 (n=FreePBX7@201.217.67.5) |
| 17:31.31 | anrp | that takes effort |
| 17:31.31 | juri_ | yep. they worked with me. |
| 17:31.34 | bedboi | the funny stuff is that i have to use the phone not for fun but for research |
| 17:31.53 | FreePBX7700 | Regarts |
| 17:31.54 | SpeedEvil | What are you researching again? |
| 17:32.15 | anrp | the effects of shipment delay on the agitation of the human mind |
| 17:32.16 | anrp | probably |
| 17:32.17 | bedboi | SpeedEvil: that Future internet design stuff |
| 17:32.20 | anrp | ...>.> |
| 17:32.30 | bedboi | SpeedEvil: Bob Kahn being the big boss of the project |
| 17:32.32 | SpeedEvil | bedboi: Oh - yes. |
| 17:33.01 | bedboi | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Kahn |
| 17:33.11 | bedboi | this small insignificant guy |
| 17:33.49 | bedboi | lol, if you have invented TCP what else you do deserve in your life? |
| 17:34.08 | raster | dunno |
| 17:34.14 | raster | invent more stuff? |
| 17:34.16 | XorA|gone | bedboi: eternal damnation probably :-) |
| 17:34.19 | anrp | i can think of a few things ... unspeakable things... |
| 17:34.22 | anrp | ;| |
| 17:34.25 | bedboi | XorA|gone: i guess. |
| 17:34.34 | raster | inventing stuff is easy |
| 17:34.51 | bedboi | anrp: lol. i guess that the biggest turn on for Bob is a huge terabit router |
| 17:34.57 | FreePBX7700 | Alguien Puede ayudarme con asterisk -java |
| 17:35.10 | bedboi | raster: inventing the fucking internet is not easy |
| 17:35.24 | raster | he was just damned lucky he helped develop a protocol that became a basic foundation for every network out there (pretty much) |
| 17:35.25 | bedboi | it's very difficult. |
| 17:35.43 | raster | bedboi: he didnt invent the internet |
| 17:35.45 | raster | no one did |
| 17:35.49 | raster | id grew |
| 17:35.51 | raster | it grew |
| 17:35.55 | SpeedEvil | TCP/IP just hit the right window. |
| 17:35.58 | raster | he laid a foundation |
| 17:36.10 | cjb_ie | SpeedEvil: *groan* |
| 17:36.11 | bedboi | raster: without foundation and architecture you have NOTHING |
| 17:36.12 | SpeedEvil | A few years delay, and we might have had AOLnet |
| 17:36.12 | raster | that ALLOWED enough machines to robustly send data to and fro |
| 17:36.28 | raster | the rest was not an invention |
| 17:36.31 | anrp | nerd fight! |
| 17:36.37 | raster | it was everyone jumping on the bandwagon |
| 17:36.46 | raster | and yes |
| 17:36.48 | SpeedEvil | Like http |
| 17:36.51 | raster | i know without a design you have nothing |
| 17:36.56 | bedboi | SpeedEvil: that's pure shit |
| 17:37.06 | bedboi | the architecture is the main point |
| 17:37.07 | SpeedEvil | http could have been killed by a gopher extension to put images on it. |
| 17:37.09 | anrp | but it's the shit everyone uses |
| 17:37.13 | anrp | so, it won |
| 17:37.19 | raster | yup |
| 17:37.24 | raster | IP won |
| 17:37.25 | bedboi | raster: can you imagine something that scales the whole world |
| 17:37.29 | raster | its not that complicated |
| 17:37.31 | bedboi | that is a HUGE invention |
| 17:37.47 | raster | bedboi: yes i can. |
| 17:37.52 | bedboi | please, tell |
| 17:38.17 | raster | not fair |
| 17:38.24 | raster | as i operate with 20/20 hindsight |
| 17:38.33 | raster | and knowledge of IP already |
| 17:38.43 | anrp | the crux of the matter appears |
| 17:38.44 | bedboi | IP is old school stuff |
| 17:38.50 | bedboi | i'm saying something new |
| 17:38.53 | bedboi | without IPs |
| 17:39.05 | raster | an IP is nothing other than a UUID |
| 17:39.12 | raster | it happens to be a fixed 32bit value |
| 17:39.27 | bedboi | exactly something that binds you to the topology |
| 17:39.30 | cjb_ie | with subnetting to make the routing problem manageable |
| 17:39.34 | juri_ | too bad its not a UUID. |
| 17:39.39 | raster | as its numeric it allows sub-space partitioning into subsets (subnets) |
| 17:39.39 | bedboi | can you give me hints about flat routing |
| 17:39.41 | Lynet | Yeah, DECNet or IPX would have been better. *ducks* |
| 17:39.42 | anrp | ipv6 4ever! |
| 17:39.42 | raster | for easeir routing |
| 17:39.45 | juri_ | how many machines have an IP of 192.168.1.1? :) |
| 17:39.50 | bedboi | anrp: ipv6 is dead. |
| 17:39.54 | anrp | i know |
| 17:40.01 | anrp | but it would be closer to an actual uuid |
| 17:40.02 | bedboi | juri_: i'm talking about public internet |
| 17:40.10 | raster | juri_: well post-nat it lost the first u. |
| 17:40.11 | anrp | well, it's not dead yet |
| 17:40.16 | anrp | just bleeding profusely... |
| 17:40.27 | bedboi | i was listening to this keynote speech by henning Shulzrinne (maybe mis-spelled) |
| 17:40.28 | Knirch | why would ipv6 be dead? something else trailing it? |
| 17:40.34 | juri_ | bedboi: this box is on the internet... its just not visible. |
| 17:40.39 | bedboi | he was saying why ipv6 is shitty. |
| 17:40.43 | anrp | dead as in not alive yet |
| 17:40.47 | raster | juri_: and lets not split hairs on 127.0.0.1 etc. :) |
| 17:40.59 | juri_ | the internet is bigger than the UUIDs, thats all i'm saying. |
| 17:41.05 | raster | nat was nowhere in any original "Design" of the itnernet |
| 17:41.11 | raster | it was a really cool hack figured out much later |
| 17:41.17 | sandos | cool? |
| 17:41.18 | bedboi | anrp: dead as it is not alive yet, and that all the community is trying to replace for something that adds more functionalities |
| 17:41.19 | sandos | nah. :) |
| 17:41.43 | raster | in the end u will develop something "ip-like" if you re-do it |
| 17:41.54 | anrp | it wouldn't really be IP if it had more functionality |
| 17:41.57 | raster | basically because it covered most of the important bits |
| 17:42.05 | anrp | it would be a big blob(tm) |
| 17:42.20 | raster | things i'd improve is requiring dns for local networks |
| 17:42.30 | bedboi | raster: obviously |
| 17:42.33 | bedboi | that's the simple point |
| 17:42.38 | bedboi | already solved |
| 17:42.48 | bedboi | the problem is routing through flat lables |
| 17:42.54 | raster | 32bits - too little if you really did plan to invent the internety |
| 17:42.58 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@85.233.59.8.static.cablesurf.de) |
| 17:43.06 | *** join/#openmoko Henrikw (n=henrik@56.84-48-193.nextgentel.com) |
| 17:43.14 | bedboi | (ROFL: routing on flat lables) |
| 17:43.33 | bedboi | raster: yep. it's just stupid. ipv6 is just enhancement |
| 17:43.42 | raster | in the end inventing ip is not amazing |
| 17:43.42 | SpeedEvil | You need to route packets according to Feng-Shui. |
| 17:43.43 | bedboi | you are not reinventing anythong |
| 17:43.49 | raster | it just won |
| 17:43.54 | bedboi | raster: but it worked. |
| 17:43.55 | raster | inventing "ascii" is not amazing |
| 17:43.57 | bedboi | amazingly well |
| 17:43.57 | raster | it just won |
| 17:44.00 | anrp | ... 127./8, that is |
| 17:44.11 | raster | i like the fact we do have ip |
| 17:44.13 | bedboi | raster: in 2007 nobody had come up with a better invetion |
| 17:44.18 | raster | 1 basic networking protocol everyone shares |
| 17:44.20 | raster | thats good enough |
| 17:44.24 | SpeedEvil | Umm. No. |
| 17:44.32 | raster | point is that it is possible to be bnetter |
| 17:44.33 | anrp | noone uses |
| 17:44.34 | raster | but it wont work |
| 17:44.35 | sandos | isnt vista the first windows with decent ipv6 support? |
| 17:44.35 | anrp | key difference |
| 17:44.35 | Lynet | anrp: I never got that, why waste an entire A on loopback. |
| 17:44.36 | SpeedEvil | Better inventions get killed all the time by the market. |
| 17:44.40 | raster | u wont hit cricical mass |
| 17:44.47 | SpeedEvil | For example, a better auction site may pop up tomorrow. |
| 17:44.51 | sandos | so conceivably it might become less uncommon now =) |
| 17:44.57 | raster | the market install base for IP is too big |
| 17:44.58 | SpeedEvil | Ebay will kill it. |
| 17:45.01 | raster | and its "good enough" |
| 17:45.20 | bedboi | SpeedEvil: well BBN is spending a lot of money on the next internet |
| 17:45.21 | raster | no one has the money nor will invest the money (and time) |
| 17:45.29 | raster | as its frankly not worth it |
| 17:45.31 | SpeedEvil | Ebay is utterly dominant - it takes millions of auctions to get to the point whereby I have 5 refrigerators withing 10 miles. |
| 17:45.32 | raster | look at ipv6 |
| 17:45.38 | raster | wer'e still waiting for it to be adopted |
| 17:45.42 | *** join/#openmoko lrg (n=liam@lrg2.demon.co.uk) |
| 17:45.43 | raster | its there |
| 17:45.45 | raster | in small amounts |
| 17:45.47 | bedboi | raster: because it's useless |
| 17:45.53 | raster | but its BETTER |
| 17:45.54 | bedboi | it doesn't add anything new |
| 17:46.00 | bedboi | it's just slightly better |
| 17:46.05 | sandos | why do we need new one such a low level? |
| 17:46.06 | raster | a massiv increase in address space |
| 17:46.07 | bedboi | nothing worth so big efforts |
| 17:46.15 | bedboi | raster: you have nats |
| 17:46.15 | sandos | what does ip _prevent_ from working? |
| 17:46.30 | bedboi | that's what is preventing the spreading of ipv6 |
| 17:46.35 | Lynet | sandos: Anything that can't be mapped easily across a NAT. |
| 17:46.38 | raster | prevents us from having more than 2^32 directly addressible host targets |
| 17:46.39 | bedboi | (as prof. Shulzrinne said) |
| 17:46.45 | raster | from where i stand. |
| 17:47.05 | raster | when every telephone has an IP instead of a phone # (ok- we can dream) |
| 17:47.05 | sandos | Lynet: and that ipv6 solves. |
| 17:47.06 | bedboi | NAT is a dirty hack, but it works (skype, for instance) |
| 17:47.12 | raster | tell me where you will fit all the ips? |
| 17:47.13 | sandos | I mean what the problem is with ipv6 that its lacking |
| 17:47.26 | Lynet | sandos: By doing away with the reason for NAT, which is limited address space. |
| 17:47.27 | raster | considering the rate at which mobiloe phones get adopted |
| 17:47.29 | bedboi | SpeedEvil: i hate skype |
| 17:47.31 | anrp | that's a new one |
| 17:47.34 | anrp | ipv6, lacking? |
| 17:47.38 | raster | we will have billions of them in a decade or so |
| 17:47.51 | bedboi | SpeedEvil: it was just to mention the most famous. btw ICE protocol works |
| 17:48.12 | bedboi | raster: just see what shit is mobile ip |
| 17:48.14 | raster | ip has problems |
| 17:48.17 | raster | and limitations |
| 17:48.57 | bedboi | the fact is that if you want to go beyond IP you have to redesign the whole stuff |
| 17:49.01 | raster | most of the internet built itself |
| 17:49.04 | raster | it weasnt invented |
| 17:49.12 | bedboi | the protocols were invented |
| 17:49.20 | bedboi | the main actors were invented |
| 17:49.22 | raster | IP has gotten good enouhg |
| 17:49.30 | bedboi | (routers, hubs (bleah), switches) |
| 17:49.33 | raster | as u can build almost anything u need in addition to it ON TOP of it. |
| 17:49.48 | SpeedEvil | The investment by the US in high speed networking - sponsored by Al Gore amongst others - may have actually made IP win. |
| 17:49.51 | raster | the core problems it has are still yet to be solved |
| 17:49.55 | bedboi | raster: overlaying is the first step. but it's not the solution. |
| 17:49.59 | raster | beyond theory or small rollouts |
| 17:50.12 | raster | eg ipv6 trying to solve the address-space issue (for one thing it tries to fix) |
| 17:51.36 | raster | so saying bob invented the internet - is a big stretch |
| 17:51.44 | raster | he was one of the designers of TCP/IP |
| 17:51.49 | raster | and arapnet |
| 17:51.58 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 17:51.58 | raster | (one and the same in my mind at the time) |
| 17:52.04 | SpeedEvil | Most people think of http as the internet |
| 17:52.05 | raster | tyhat happened to be good enough to grow |
| 17:52.14 | raster | SpeedEvil: nooo! its internet explorer |
| 17:52.17 | raster | thats the internet |
| 17:52.21 | raster | they dont even knwo what http is |
| 17:52.22 | SpeedEvil | which could have been over any protocol prettymuch |
| 17:52.26 | bedboi | raster: i'm not saying bob is god. It's a very important contributor of the internet that we are using |
| 17:52.30 | raster | the internet is that "e" icon/ |
| 17:52.34 | *** join/#openmoko ccube (n=ccube@87.230.22.107) |
| 17:52.51 | bedboi | <SpeedEvil> Most people think of http as the internet |
| 17:52.52 | bedboi | ahhaa |
| 17:53.05 | SpeedEvil | Well - you know what I mean. |
| 17:53.09 | bedboi | LOL |
| 17:53.17 | raster | bedboi: well you did say he invented the internet. |
| 17:53.18 | raster | <bedboi> raster: inventing the fucking internet is not easy |
| 17:53.20 | raster | :) |
| 17:53.30 | *** join/#openmoko BlahCat (n=andy@net-pbx.demon.nl) |
| 17:53.33 | bedboi | raster: yep, it contributed. |
| 17:53.35 | bedboi | a lot |
| 17:53.37 | raster | sure |
| 17:53.43 | bedboi | he was one of the main |
| 17:53.48 | bedboi | TCP is fundamental |
| 17:53.57 | raster | i am greatful to men like him who put effort in and founded some of the core protocols the internet happens to use |
| 17:54.04 | raster | well proto9cols at the IP layer |
| 17:54.07 | bedboi | do anyone of you know Von Jacobson |
| 17:54.11 | bedboi | (i'm sure just a few) |
| 17:54.12 | raster | TCP and UDP for example |
| 17:54.16 | raster | yup |
| 17:54.21 | BlahCat | You talking about Bob Dole? |
| 17:54.22 | aloril | BlahCat: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 17:54.22 | raster | i'm familiar with it |
| 17:54.23 | BlahCat | :P |
| 17:54.28 | raster | i'm not a networking nerd though |
| 17:54.31 | raster | networks bore me |
| 17:54.35 | bedboi | eheh |
| 17:54.35 | raster | generally |
| 17:54.43 | raster | too slow |
| 17:54.56 | bedboi | raster: hmmm it's not true. |
| 17:55.02 | bedboi | they are going to be an hassle. |
| 17:55.04 | raster | definitely true |
| 17:55.11 | bedboi | 10 Gbps it's not simple to handle |
| 17:55.12 | raster | slooooow |
| 17:55.16 | bedboi | what about 1 Terabit |
| 17:55.23 | bedboi | which is going to happen very soon |
| 17:55.25 | bedboi | VERY |
| 17:55.30 | bedboi | i mean that we have something in labs |
| 17:56.10 | bedboi | raster: can you handle 1 Tbps? |
| 17:56.23 | bedboi | my laptop is not able to do that |
| 17:56.32 | bedboi | neither 10 Gbps |
| 17:56.38 | raster | still slow |
| 17:56.44 | raster | i prefer my graphics world |
| 17:57.02 | raster | 40gbit is the tinny funnel we have to squeeze gfx from cpu/ram to video mem |
| 17:57.09 | bedboi | raster: the speed of light is the same in the whole universe |
| 17:57.14 | raster | (pci-e x16) |
| 17:57.28 | raster | i prefer to think in terms of 2ghz+ddr3 vidoe ram bandwidth |
| 17:58.40 | bedboi | what's the max video stuff throughput you heard about ? |
| 17:59.21 | bedboi | i think buses will be very soon the bottlenecks |
| 17:59.29 | raster | they are |
| 17:59.46 | bedboi | the network won't be the bottleneck anymore |
| 18:00.10 | *** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@mathias.residence.ens-lyon.fr) |
| 18:00.12 | raster | pci-e x16 is about 40gbit |
| 18:00.15 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@c-76-30-222-129.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 18:00.21 | raster | thats the tiny bottlneck to squeeze gfx thru |
| 18:00.29 | raster | still beats most peoples networks |
| 18:00.32 | raster | by a fat margin |
| 18:00.47 | raster | and unlike 10gbit cards + switches |
| 18:00.49 | bedboi | raster: i'm telling. |
| 18:00.55 | bedboi | raster: wait at most 1 year |
| 18:00.58 | raster | is availabel on alomost anythng u guy off the shelf ona cheap motherboard |
| 18:01.08 | raster | mem bandwidth on-card makes that look puny |
| 18:01.29 | raster | i are looking at 400gbit+ on modern cards |
| 18:02.27 | raster | and in 1 year |
| 18:02.38 | raster | \the gfx cards will have upped their bandiwdht again |
| 18:02.44 | bedboi | optical switches are going to overflow whatever you have in your PC :) |
| 18:02.54 | raster | unlikely |
| 18:03.20 | bedboi | raster: terabits are not enough? |
| 18:03.36 | raster | we are talking just udner a terabit of bandwidth already in higher end gfx cards |
| 18:03.44 | raster | already there |
| 18:03.46 | raster | on the shelf |
| 18:03.54 | raster | for about $400-$500 |
| 18:04.15 | bedboi | raster: optical cards won't be expansive |
| 18:04.42 | raster | all the cabkling , switches and finra to deliver the data will |
| 18:04.59 | *** join/#openmoko kuyky (n=kuyky@a81-84-74-164.cpe.netcabo.pt) |
| 18:05.08 | bedboi | raster: your isp will pay for that :) |
| 18:05.17 | raster | and by the time that equipment is cheap and commodity |
| 18:05.21 | bedboi | that's what isps are for :) |
| 18:05.26 | raster | things will have moved ahaed |
| 18:05.28 | raster | no |
| 18:05.31 | raster | they will make you pay for it |
| 18:05.34 | bedboi | raster: what about the speed of light? |
| 18:05.36 | raster | i already have 100mbit |
| 18:05.37 | raster | fibre |
| 18:05.39 | raster | to my door |
| 18:05.41 | bedboi | can you go faster than c ? |
| 18:05.43 | raster | fat lot of good it is |
| 18:05.52 | raster | i am lucky to see 20-30mbit |
| 18:05.56 | raster | most of the time i see < 1mbit |
| 18:05.58 | raster | err |
| 18:05.59 | raster | < 10mbit |
| 18:06.07 | bedboi | raster: it depends also on congestion |
| 18:06.13 | raster | it depends on many things |
| 18:06.19 | bedboi | you are doing unfair comparison |
| 18:06.36 | raster | it mostly depends on latency and the fact that most sources of data are slower than my home netowkr i pay $40/month for |
| 18:06.44 | bedboi | you are talking about a very simple architecture compared to a wild one (the internet) |
| 18:06.54 | raster | wait |
| 18:07.05 | raster | comparign what exactly? |
| 18:07.14 | bedboi | raster: video cards |
| 18:07.18 | raster | oh |
| 18:07.19 | bedboi | with networks |
| 18:07.22 | raster | u think thats tame? |
| 18:07.23 | raster | hahahahah |
| 18:07.33 | bedboi | you are comparing speed |
| 18:07.42 | raster | yes |
| 18:07.47 | raster | gfx interests me |
| 18:07.54 | raster | as i count speed in clock cycles |
| 18:08.08 | raster | not in round-trip times in miliseconds |
| 18:08.16 | bedboi | who cares about rtt now |
| 18:08.23 | raster | i do |
| 18:08.31 | raster | its the time to ask for something and get a result |
| 18:08.49 | raster | i can ask a video card to take mb's of data |
| 18:09.01 | raster | process it with complex transforms |
| 18:09.02 | bedboi | you are asking it LOCALLY |
| 18:09.07 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@139.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 18:09.08 | bedboi | 10 cm away |
| 18:09.09 | bedboi | :) |
| 18:09.12 | raster | that cpu's dont have a snowballs chance in hell of being able to do |
| 18:09.21 | bedboi | it's damn unfair comparison |
| 18:09.26 | raster | and come back within micorseconds |
| 18:09.28 | raster | it is unfair |
| 18:09.32 | raster | thats what i was saying |
| 18:09.34 | bedboi | ok, we agree |
| 18:09.36 | raster | netowkors bore me |
| 18:09.38 | raster | too slow |
| 18:09.41 | bedboi | ahaha |
| 18:09.43 | raster | i like thigns fast |
| 18:09.43 | bedboi | it is not. |
| 18:09.44 | bedboi | ok |
| 18:09.52 | raster | i'm an "instant gratification kind of guy |
| 18:09.56 | raster | i'm all about instant |
| 18:10.03 | raster | instant ramen |
| 18:10.04 | bedboi | raster: i have instant beer |
| 18:10.07 | raster | instant beer |
| 18:10.10 | bedboi | i got that |
| 18:10.10 | raster | instant meat |
| 18:10.18 | bedboi | yesterday i bought from smiths |
| 18:10.22 | raster | networks are not instant enough for me |
| 18:10.25 | raster | even at the bleedign edge |
| 18:10.27 | bedboi | they asked for my passport |
| 18:10.35 | bedboi | lol, passport for fucking beer |
| 18:10.41 | raster | i like gfx as its all about instant gratification |
| 18:11.21 | bedboi | raster: if you sit at the end points of an optical link, you will have damn instant gratification |
| 18:11.27 | raster | the amount of data to be shuffled about by your average gfx card to draw just 1 frame of gfx in a game these days is astronomical |
| 18:11.29 | bedboi | well you and another guy |
| 18:11.34 | raster | and every cycle counts |
| 18:12.44 | raster | also results are pretty |
| 18:12.51 | raster | they appear in front of me |
| 18:12.58 | raster | in shiny sparkly colours |
| 18:13.02 | bedboi | raster: yep. that's true |
| 18:13.04 | raster | i'm all about shiny and sparkyl |
| 18:13.06 | bedboi | i just get shitty graphs |
| 18:13.08 | raster | and instant |
| 18:13.12 | raster | yeah |
| 18:13.16 | raster | some people love networks |
| 18:13.21 | raster | i have friends who do |
| 18:13.22 | bedboi | my gf she get much more than you |
| 18:13.24 | *** join/#openmoko agoode (n=agoode@2001:4830:1633:0:212:3fff:fe70:6222) |
| 18:13.27 | raster | they get all gooey about them |
| 18:13.28 | bedboi | she is in fluido dynamics |
| 18:13.33 | bedboi | fluid |
| 18:13.47 | bedboi | you should check her graphs |
| 18:13.50 | raster | me - i don't |
| 18:13.53 | raster | i get gooey about gui's |
| 18:13.54 | raster | :) |
| 18:13.54 | bedboi | they are wonderful |
| 18:14.06 | raster | i have graphs too |
| 18:14.07 | raster | :) |
| 18:14.26 | raster | they tend to just be performance trends over time |
| 18:14.27 | raster | ie. |
| 18:14.34 | raster | have i sped up my rendering lately? yes/no |
| 18:15.32 | bedboi | boring graphs |
| 18:15.33 | bedboi | :P |
| 18:15.43 | bedboi | just a curve |
| 18:16.20 | Sup3rkiddo | hmm...guys, i have a weird problem, sometimes the build process for some packages proceeds to do_install directly instead of do_compile, although if i do a make clean-package-<foo> and rebuild it, it goes away, have i chanced upon a bitbake bug or something? |
| 18:17.17 | raster | not when its more of a surface |
| 18:17.18 | Sup3rkiddo | oh. the errors i get are "No rule to make target:install", |
| 18:17.29 | raster | and different operatiosn scale up differently depending on whatr you do |
| 18:17.36 | raster | and how you cut out rendering paths |
| 18:17.38 | raster | etc. |
| 18:17.41 | *** join/#openmoko ckuethe (n=ckuethe@S0106000024c38a18.ed.shawcable.net) |
| 18:17.52 | raster | anyway |
| 18:17.55 | raster | time to sleep |
| 18:17.57 | raster | waay late |
| 18:18.00 | raster | snooz! |
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| 20:38.26 | hhf423 | re |
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| 20:41.47 | rejon | does anyone else get the gui all squished int he upper left-hand corner of the openmoko on the latest images? |
| 20:41.52 | rejon | any workarounds found? |
| 20:42.34 | hhf423 | what? |
| 20:42.41 | rejon | I get the UI starts up screen, and then the normal home, etc, is all squished up in the upper left hand corner in a small like 200px by 100 px window |
| 20:42.42 | hhf423 | squished? |
| 20:42.50 | rejon | yah, weird, right |
| 20:43.08 | hhf423 | can you upload a screenshot? |
| 20:43.26 | hhf423 | I do not have that issue with the images from today |
| 20:43.44 | hhf423 | see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Phase_1_Software_Testing#Snapshot_20070916_rootfs_with_20070916_kernel_fic-gta01_2.6.22.5-moko11.2Bsvnr2937-r0 |
| 20:44.09 | rejon | (right, looking at) |
| 20:44.09 | hhf423 | ah, just saw your screenshot |
| 20:44.14 | rejon | and updated to that image |
| 20:44.16 | hhf423 | thats looks weird |
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| 20:45.11 | rejon | you see on scap.linuxtogo.org |
| 20:45.19 | hhf423 | are you sure you have the right kernel and the right rootfs? |
| 20:45.32 | hhf423 | yes, I see it on scap, weird |
| 20:45.36 | rejon | yah |
| 20:45.54 | rejon | I images the latest kernel and rootfs |
| 20:46.16 | rejon | ipkg update && ipkg upgrade didn't pull down any upgrades (prolly cuz new image) |
| 20:46.38 | rejon | heya, the dialer works though! |
| 20:47.29 | rejon | hmmm...I wonder what a workaround would be |
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| 20:52.35 | compbrain | why must you crash without warning |
| 20:53.44 | hhf423 | compbrain: hey, but thats what gsmd _does_ |
| 20:53.57 | rejon | so I take it no one has any ideas about my problem with latest image ;) |
| 20:54.11 | rejon | its like the bugs are near chaotic ;) |
| 20:54.26 | hhf423 | rejon: sorry, no. looks like somehow the X thinks you have a very small screen |
| 20:55.14 | hhf423 | is the display resolution part of boot parameters? |
| 20:55.44 | rejon | you mean in uboot, like in bootargs_base ? |
| 20:55.51 | rejon | how would that be done? |
| 20:56.33 | hhf423 | hmm, no its not |
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| 20:58.13 | rejon | hhf423: where/how would I set that? |
| 20:58.46 | rejon | hhf423: granted, I'm using total stock image here with little to no changes... |
| 20:58.57 | hhf423 | rejon: see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bootloader but there is not much, but it looks like uboot knows the resolution already |
| 20:59.20 | hhf423 | rejon: are you using uboot from august 19 or older? |
| 20:59.49 | rejon | oh yah, shoudl update my uboot |
| 20:59.51 | rejon | y |
| 20:59.56 | rejon | duh |
| 20:59.58 | rejon | ;) |
| 21:00.07 | hhf423 | rejon: use this uboot, its known good: http://buildhost.openmoko.org/snapshots/2007.08/images/ |
| 21:00.22 | hhf423 | or do you have a debug board? |
| 21:00.25 | rejon | y |
| 21:00.33 | rejon | crap, its at the office |
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| 21:01.12 | hhf423 | without a debug board, I would use that one (as I said http://buildhost.openmoko.org/snapshots/2007.08/images/). with a debug board I would try the latest :-) |
| 21:01.33 | hhf423 | I am running the version from august 19, as I do not have a debug board |
| 21:01.41 | rejon | ok, sounds good... |
| 21:02.47 | El_Salvador | http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/724a5ed7ecd6e09bef7701aac9fe9351.png |
| 21:02.49 | El_Salvador | O_o |
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| 21:06.30 | hhf423 | El_Salvador yeah, thats nice, isn't it? and that one: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/43091acec6b18755afc111cb45857f5c.png |
| 21:07.15 | hhf423 | ok, off to bed |
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| 21:26.24 | rejon | hhf423: bummer, that didn't work |
| 21:26.37 | rejon | I flashed uboot and still the same |
| 21:26.54 | darkskiez | Sooooo tempted to buy a phone...eeek |
| 21:27.19 | darkskiez | I went down the list of what doesnt work at the moment, it seems pretty similar to my nokia N80 :) |
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| 21:38.02 | rejon | ok, hhf423: filed a bug |
| 21:38.04 | rejon | http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=873 |
| 21:38.08 | rejon | time to switch tasks |
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| 21:40.00 | darkskiez | anyone know what the shipping costs are ? |
| 21:40.01 | aloril | darkskiez: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 21:41.13 | aloril | start making order, it should tell you without need to finish it |
| 21:41.39 | darkskiez | Ooh ta |
| 21:43.04 | darkskiez | Argh, United Kingdom isnt on the list of countries. |
| 21:43.17 | darkskiez | Oh.. Great Britain this time, that winds me up. |
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| 21:46.12 | darkskiez | hmm, will be around 655 dollars for the advance kit all in then :( |
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| 21:50.34 | polz | where can I get gllin ? |
| 21:53.55 | cw666 | polz: you can't unfortunately |
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| 21:54.51 | polz | bah. |
| 22:00.36 | SpeedEvil | Random bluetooth question. Do 'all' cheap USB bluetooth adaptors do the same thing? |
| 22:00.58 | SpeedEvil | Can I basically use them with bluez, to emulate devices, or use devices? |
| 22:01.36 | mjr | afaik, basically, yes |
| 22:01.46 | SpeedEvil | Thanks. |
| 22:02.13 | Aria | Yeah, they're essentially just nic |
| 22:02.37 | SpeedEvil | Just wondering if there is a shortcut to making a bluetooth camera. ucLinux/bluez |
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| 22:23.51 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: most of the BT dongles are about the same... there isn't even a clean way to know if a $3 works better (more range/less noise) than a $20 often |
| 22:23.59 | cw666 | anyhow, BT for a camera would suck |
| 22:24.01 | cw666 | very slow |
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| 22:25.25 | SpeedEvil | I'm more talking about a snap cam, rather than a webcam, or a high quality cam. |
| 22:25.47 | cw666 | yeah, but even so BT performance is miserable |
| 22:26.14 | SpeedEvil | Plenty for a VGA or 1024*768 JPG every few seconds. |
| 22:26.38 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: you might find you end up with 20-50kB/s at most |
| 22:26.39 | cw666 | try it |
| 22:26.56 | SpeedEvil | That's quite fine. |
| 22:27.12 | emdete | SpeedEvil: that's exactly what i am missing on a neo: a snap cam, say 630x480 pixels.... |
| 22:27.37 | emdete | s/3/4/ |
| 22:28.12 | SpeedEvil | The fun question is of course 'how cheap can it be made in small volume'. |
| 22:28.13 | cw666 | why does everyone want a cam on their damned phone? |
| 22:28.19 | cw666 | they suck something terrible at the best of times |
| 22:28.25 | SpeedEvil | Many apps. |
| 22:28.36 | SpeedEvil | Taking quality pictures is not one of them. |
| 22:28.41 | SpeedEvil | At least for me. |
| 22:28.58 | emdete | my girlfriend says: scummvm on the neo is great, she wants a neo... |
| 22:29.18 | SpeedEvil | Taking snapshots of streetsigns for http://www.openstreetmap.org/ |
| 22:29.29 | emdete | cw666: sometimes you want to take a picture.. |
| 22:29.35 | SpeedEvil | taking pictures of stuff in shops, including the price-tag, for comparison shopping |
| 22:29.41 | SpeedEvil | reading barcodes |
| 22:29.45 | cw666 | emdete: yeah, ive been there enough times to know i dont really care much for phone-camera pics |
| 22:29.49 | cw666 | they just suck so badly |
| 22:29.55 | cw666 | i must admist an DSL is a pain to take about |
| 22:29.57 | SpeedEvil | thumbnails for contact lists |
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| 22:30.07 | MickeyFinns | They do have alot of uses i find. |
| 22:30.17 | MickeyFinns | would be a brilliant feature for the neo. |
| 22:30.34 | SpeedEvil | Ow. |
| 22:30.55 | SpeedEvil | A snap cam is not a replacement for a DSLR. |
| 22:31.00 | SpeedEvil | It's a replacement for no DSLR |
| 22:31.24 | SpeedEvil | Or rather, no camera at all. |
| 22:31.26 | cw666 | it wsn't hard, i pulled it back and it spun around to smash the rear of it into the metal playfield (Nikon D200, i was UNHAPPY when i did that) |
| 22:31.52 | SpeedEvil | And that's the other issue. |
| 22:32.00 | SpeedEvil | You can make snap-cams that bounce. |
| 22:32.07 | SpeedEvil | Doing that with a DSLR is trickier. |
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| 22:33.25 | emdete | SpeedEvil: bounce? |
| 22:34.33 | SpeedEvil | Hit the floor, and do not shatter or become inoperable. |
| 22:34.53 | emdete | SpeedEvil: ah, alright :) |
| 22:34.57 | cw666 | actually, a decent dSLR will go thunk in many cases and not break |
| 22:35.05 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 22:35.23 | SpeedEvil | Now drop it onto concrete and pretend not to be worried while picking it up :) |
| 22:35.26 | cw666 | part of the reason some are so heavy is becaue they are built very well, but you pay a lot for this and have to carry a lot |
| 22:35.39 | emdete | anyway a cam on a gadget would be nice. wonder why all the people around the neo are arguing about that... |
| 22:35.42 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: oh, well, i would assume $300+ damage or so then |
| 22:35.57 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d200/drop-test.htm |
| 22:37.36 | emdete | ..while most of the gadgets today just have one. |
| 22:37.58 | anrp | can't bring it into secure facilities |
| 22:38.07 | anrp | since there's only one product (so far) it would exclude some users completely |
| 22:38.13 | holycow | hello my moko monkeys |
| 22:38.15 | SpeedEvil | I totally agree. But, a 50g device with a thick plastic case is much, much easier to make bounce. |
| 22:38.24 | emdete | anrp: i don't care, sorry |
| 22:39.04 | emdete | anrp: it's not that big amount of people working in that areas... |
| 22:39.15 | anrp | true |
| 22:39.19 | anrp | doesnt affect me either |
| 22:39.37 | emdete | just use gaffer-tape.. ;) |
| 22:40.17 | SpeedEvil | In some places, cameras are sackable offences. |
| 22:40.37 | SpeedEvil | In a very few, prosecutable. |
| 22:40.39 | anrp | and not as in "here's a sack to put your camera in" |
| 22:40.43 | anrp | >.> |
| 22:41.06 | SpeedEvil | And in others, they'll get you killed. |
| 22:41.19 | SpeedEvil | (though those are rarely very safe without a camera) |
| 22:41.20 | emdete | i heard that already but don't think it's a reason for not including one. the real reason could be 'it's too expansive'... |
| 22:41.32 | SpeedEvil | It's not expensive in terms of price. |
| 22:41.47 | SpeedEvil | It's expensive in terms of having to change the case, the PCB, the whole design basically. |
| 22:42.08 | cw666 | i'd settle for a less lame case design right now myself |
| 22:42.12 | emdete | so why isn't one icluded? for those envs where you are not allowed to bring one? don't whink so |
| 22:42.21 | cw666 | rounded corners are pointless and a waste of 'space' |
| 22:42.26 | cw666 | same for the hole |
| 22:42.34 | cw666 | and the plastic used in very thick |
| 22:42.47 | SpeedEvil | Thick plastic is good. |
| 22:42.51 | anrp | hey at least you don't have to pick orange |
| 22:43.01 | emdete | cw666: for me the high border around the display is the biggest disantvantage |
| 22:43.11 | SpeedEvil | thin plastic bends too much on impact to have a decent shielding effect. |
| 22:43.20 | cw666 | emdete: well, the corners of ther screen a near useless w/o a stylus |
| 22:44.28 | emdete | if u show the neo to people with no knowledge of open source - what do they say? all the people i know don't like it... |
| 22:44.52 | SpeedEvil | To some extent, it's irrelevant. |
| 22:45.05 | cw666 | it's completely relevant |
| 22:45.05 | SpeedEvil | The important bit is not the hardware, but the software. |
| 22:45.18 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: yes and no, see, the sw is near non-existent |
| 22:45.30 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2977 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/artwork/sounds/touchscreen_click.wav: OM 2007.2 sounds: repair touchscreen_click |
| 22:45.39 | SpeedEvil | It's not meant to show to consumers for months yet |
| 22:45.41 | cw666 | a whole lot of broken appslications with slow bloated gtk/gnome pixmaps isn't 'software' |
| 22:46.04 | anrp | ooh a dig |
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| 22:46.28 | cw666 | being hackable is most wonderful, being open is a nice way to make it hackable |
| 22:46.37 | cw666 | but that's not going to help for mass-market |
| 22:46.54 | emdete | fic goes mass market.. or wants ot |
| 22:46.59 | emdete | s/ot/to/ |
| 22:47.45 | emdete | and on mass market the neo will be compared with ....say, the iphone. |
| 22:47.48 | cw666 | right now i dont see it working, in fact, im worried this will tank badly and disuade later open/hackable phone attempts |
| 22:47.59 | cw666 | emdete: no, it won't be compared with the iphone |
| 22:48.09 | SpeedEvil | Of course it will be. |
| 22:48.15 | cw666 | because the iphone is cheaper for more, theyre are MILLIONS of them (or will be sooner) |
| 22:48.17 | SpeedEvil | By everyone else. |
| 22:48.22 | cw666 | apple has great volume already |
| 22:48.24 | SpeedEvil | And fail. |
| 22:48.25 | emdete | cw666: no? my friends do all the time.. and there is even a page in the wiki doing so |
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| 22:49.01 | cw666 | emdete: how can you compare the neo with the iphone right now? |
| 22:49.13 | cw666 | that's like comparing some srap metal to the space shuttle |
| 22:49.35 | anrp | this particular pile of scrap metal happens to look a bit like the buran though |
| 22:49.39 | emdete | cw666: no. they are much nearer... arm proc, display, gsm. |
| 22:50.12 | cw666 | emdete: CPU is irrelevant, neo has a nicer display (a lot). gsm irrelevant. |
| 22:50.31 | cw666 | CPU & GSM are not ends unto themselves for most people, just letters and unimportant details |
| 22:50.44 | emdete | cw666: for you. and me. but not for the mass market. for those both are phones. nothing more |
| 22:50.48 | cw666 | does you mom care what CPU her phone has when she makes a call? |
| 22:50.59 | cw666 | emdete: for mass market they are very different |
| 22:51.33 | emdete | cw666: yes, because mass market says iphone's display is nicer ;) |
| 22:51.45 | cw666 | emdete: oh, it's not IMO, the neo has a way nicer display |
| 22:52.12 | rabble | speaking of making a call, i sure do look forward to teh day when i can make calls on my openmoko phone :) |
| 22:52.29 | cw666 | rabble: ive done a few on mine |
| 22:52.41 | cw666 | kicker is i need to prep things a little more than i like |
| 22:52.45 | rabble | yeah, i know if i got something other than a tmobile sim i could make SOME calls |
| 22:52.53 | cw666 | turn of sidetone in the modem, poke gsmd 27 times to get it started and up right, etc. |
| 22:52.55 | darkskiez | i wonder if the security folks will try and squeeze/demand a backdoor into the system (if there isnt one already in the gsmd) |
| 22:52.59 | emdete | cw666: technically the neo may be nicer, the oppinion of mass market is different |
| 22:53.11 | cw666 | darkskiez: backdoor? what for? |
| 22:53.11 | mjr | that's hopefully not _too_ far away |
| 22:53.45 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis_ (n=summatus@umm-yrless170.morris.umn.edu) |
| 22:53.52 | emdete | int fact i think neo's software openmoko makes the same mistake most phone developers made and iphone's did not make |
| 22:53.54 | anrp | eavesdropping? |
| 22:53.57 | darkskiez | cw666: there is much speculation that the security services can connect to most phones and download their memories, and call them silently as remote bugs etc. |
| 22:54.05 | cw666 | emdete: i asked several non-technical people so far, and the feedback ive gotten is the industrial design on the neo 'sucks' |
| 22:54.31 | cw666 | darkskiez: no law at present requires telcos and phone makers to do that, so not all phones can or will do that (if any do) |
| 22:54.31 | emdete | cw666: yes, same for me |
| 22:54.47 | *** join/#openmoko C7_ (n=C7@77-56-188-185.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 22:54.54 | darkskiez | cw666: yes, but $$$ to the right people makes things happen legal or otherwise. |
| 22:55.08 | cw666 | there is the attitude (esp. around here at times) that you can't say shit bad about OE/OM and the Neo ... which is bullshit |
| 22:55.22 | cw666 | it's wonderful it's mostly open, it's nice FIC has made much effort here |
| 22:55.33 | cw666 | but that doesn't mean some parts of the hw and sw don't suck |
| 22:55.36 | emdete | cw666: but did those people just grabbed the device or did they play around with the software? |
| 22:55.43 | mjr | of course they suck |
| 22:55.49 | mjr | I haven't seen the attitude |
| 22:56.10 | cw666 | emdete: sure, several people i know in the bay area have the hw and the sw and are stunned about various aspects of it |
| 22:56.11 | anrp | i'd say its more self limiting |
| 22:56.13 | mjr | I do at least personally have the attitude that most of the iphone blathering is useless |
| 22:56.19 | mjr | which is different |
| 22:56.22 | anrp | its hard for reasonable people to say flat out to the creators that their stuff sucks |
| 22:56.31 | cw666 | ending up with superdead batteries is pretty heinous, the hw shouldn't allow that IMO |
| 22:56.32 | emdete | cw666: i agree, for me the neo is heaven, but for mass market? |
| 22:56.51 | cw666 | emdete: for me the neo is probably very usable, i have several things i want, for the wife and others, it's not going to work |
| 22:57.25 | cw666 | emdete: also, for me realize i've more or less decided OE/OM is cancer and don't intend to go that route |
| 22:57.26 | darkskiez | I can see a granny-mode skin for the UI |
| 22:57.41 | darkskiez | that'd go down a storm |
| 22:57.54 | cw666 | so i'm even more in a corner of bad-attitude people who want a hackable phone (but not gnome in their pocket) |
| 22:58.00 | emdete | cw666: which way do you go? |
| 22:58.31 | cw666 | emdete: depends, if i can find people to do enough usable phone UI stuff ill try to use that, otherwise ill take what i can from OE/OM without using the bulk of what they have |
| 22:58.34 | emdete | cw666: :) yes, i dropped om, gnome, whatever also already. but stay with oe. |
| 22:58.50 | cw666 | emdete: why? what's so great about OE? |
| 22:59.02 | cw666 | really, it's a phone, not a desktop/workstation |
| 22:59.04 | emdete | cw666: it just works fine for me |
| 22:59.15 | cw666 | emdete: builds are slow and complex and fragile often |
| 22:59.34 | anrp | fragile? |
| 22:59.36 | cw666 | emdete: i PERSONALLY done care much for package management |
| 22:59.37 | anrp | say it ain't so! |
| 22:59.49 | cw666 | people here talk about not getting builds for DAYS |
| 22:59.49 | emdete | cw666: oe == open embedd? the build platform. i can tell it what parts to build even mine. it works fine and i use ipkg remove alot |
| 23:00.13 | cw666 | emdete: if it works for you great, it's not what i would use out of choice though |
| 23:00.37 | anrp | portage shoehorned into an embedded build system is a bit odd |
| 23:00.38 | emdete | cw666: what's would u use? |
| 23:00.43 | anrp | not necessarily wrong, just... |
| 23:01.16 | cw666 | emdete: *i* personally am planning on using something a bit like what ive done for the last couple of years, that is a stable chroot of build-tools (cross dev env) and simple makefiles |
| 23:01.32 | emdete | i used qtopia's build system before.. hell, i tell you oe is eden! |
| 23:01.37 | cw666 | emdete: it's fast, it's easy to deal with, and ive done it for mips hardware (for my job) for over two years now |
| 23:02.04 | anrp | qt is massive |
| 23:02.08 | anrp | use buildroot! |
| 23:02.25 | emdete | cw666: i hope oe would help me if i switch to different hw with my project also |
| 23:02.37 | emdete | anrp: ? |
| 23:02.37 | cw666 | emdete: fwiw, the mip stuff i do for work takes < 7 minutes to build kernel + base rootfs |
| 23:02.38 | *** join/#openmoko twistx (n=twistx@64.30.190.171) |
| 23:02.55 | emdete | cw666: depends on the machine... |
| 23:03.09 | anrp | buildroot is from the uclibc project |
| 23:03.18 | anrp | i used it to build a bunch of toolchains/roots |
| 23:03.27 | anrp | also used it to build the static mplayer used on the neo |
| 23:03.40 | anrp | well the one i used a month ago or so D: |
| 23:03.47 | cw666 | emdete: depends on machine how? |
| 23:04.02 | emdete | cw666: what host machine do u use... |
| 23:04.31 | cw666 | emdete: the buildroot we use is a 32-bit i386 one, it's used from small laptops to 16-way servers |
| 23:04.42 | cw666 | emdete: the <7 mins build time is a 3GHz P-D (slow PoS) |
| 23:04.57 | emdete | cw666: ah... ;) |
| 23:04.59 | anrp | you do use buildroot? |
| 23:05.16 | cw666 | we use "a buildroot" |
| 23:05.28 | cw666 | ie. something i made and called it a buldroot, nothing related to uclibc |
| 23:05.29 | anrp | oh, but not the one i'm talking about |
| 23:05.32 | anrp | heh |
| 23:05.47 | cw666 | it just happend to be a rootfs with is used for building with some tools we have to manage it and what not |
| 23:06.13 | cw666 | s/happend/happens/ |
| 23:06.22 | cw666 | s/happens/happens / |
| 23:06.24 | cw666 | hah! |
| 23:06.26 | cw666 | apt is dumb :-) |
| 23:07.01 | anrp | ? |
| 23:07.20 | cw666 | sorry, was seeing if apt would double-update on s/.../.../ foo |
| 23:07.54 | emdete | apt is stateless ;) |
| 23:08.22 | daxxar | It can't be, since s/// works? :-P |
| 23:08.30 | emdete | :) |
| 23:08.31 | cw666 | emdete: btw, one of the goals discussed was <7s from phone powerup to being registered on the network |
| 23:08.32 | *** join/#openmoko BlackBsd (n=brian@72.168.193.117) |
| 23:08.40 | cw666 | how quickly to getting a usable UI isn't clear right now |
| 23:08.54 | aevin | cw666: including entering the PIN? |
| 23:09.04 | cw666 | aevin: w/o a PIN |
| 23:09.06 | emdete | cw666: i don't care the first one, but the second. mine is much faster ;) |
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| 23:09.27 | emdete | cw666: much more interesting for now is the battery live.... |
| 23:09.40 | aevin | i think my current phone requires more than 7s. if I try to browse my contact list too soon it complains: "SIM is not ready". |
| 23:09.56 | cw666 | emdete: yeah, im not sure about that, best i can get so far is a bit under 2 days, but a lot more can be done still |
| 23:10.12 | emdete | aevin: that's normal, contacts are downloaded. but normaly you could do a phone call |
| 23:10.13 | cw666 | aevin: RAZR from powerup is ~6s to being able to make a call |
| 23:10.33 | emdete | cw666: you neo works 2 days? wow... how that? |
| 23:10.41 | cw666 | 7s is the goal here because that seems to be the fastest i can power up the modem and get it registered (well, a bit over 5s) |
| 23:10.52 | cw666 | emdete: prob more like 18 hours |
| 23:11.15 | emdete | cw666: how? i get not even 10... |
| 23:11.46 | aevin | cw666: that 5 sec is limited by the TI Calypso + network ? |
| 23:11.49 | emdete | if i shut down my notebook at evening the phone is off on the morning... (connected by usb) |
| 23:11.55 | cw666 | emdete: making sure the amp is off, using as little CPU as possible |
| 23:12.01 | cw666 | aevin: for me yes |
| 23:12.06 | aevin | emdete: that kind of sucks. |
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| 23:12.13 | SpeedEvil | I don't think 18 hours is possible. |
| 23:12.18 | cw666 | aevin: basically it's about 4-5s to get modem up and about 1s to register or something |
| 23:12.24 | SpeedEvil | I measured the lowest idle at 90mA or so |
| 23:12.31 | SpeedEvil | which is maybe 14h |
| 23:12.42 | SpeedEvil | this was with clocking to 100Mhz, and undervolting |
| 23:13.01 | SpeedEvil | - not possible with existing infrastructure I mean. |
| 23:13.02 | emdete | SpeedEvil: that's more what i expirienced... |
| 23:13.18 | emdete | SpeedEvil: prob is i can't switch freq while in linux |
| 23:13.25 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: im pretty sure you can do less |
| 23:13.27 | aevin | hm. so I guess those 4-5 secs for the modem is not trimmable? it is already quite optimized? |
| 23:13.48 | cw666 | aevin: modem is silent at that time, nothing you can do |
| 23:14.07 | cw666 | aevin: the idea is to have uboot power up the modem and antenna and let is kill that time as linux boots |
| 23:14.13 | cw666 | then early userspaces takes over |
| 23:14.37 | aevin | i see. |
| 23:14.43 | emdete | cw666: and where do you get the pin? |
| 23:15.28 | aevin | emdete: after you log into your shell. :-P jk. |
| 23:15.42 | aevin | or: in your shell |
| 23:16.03 | aevin | or: from your operator. |
| 23:16.23 | daxxar | emdete: The PIN isn't required until it's supposed to register with the network, AFAIK - so the 4-5s boot-time of the modem can happen without the PIN. |
| 23:16.29 | emdete | hm, anyway goal should be not to power up that often |
| 23:16.58 | cw666 | emdete: i have no PIN on my sim |
| 23:17.14 | cw666 | if you have a pin, things are going to take longer |
| 23:20.50 | SpeedEvil | It would be so nice if uboot-early userspace could interact with the user to take a pin |
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| 23:20.55 | SpeedEvil | but that gets complex. |
| 23:21.32 | emdete | i would not care if boot takes a minute if i wouldn't have to do that all the time bacause the battery lasts a week or so |
| 23:22.33 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: then the limiting factor would be the person entering it |
| 23:22.35 | SpeedEvil | Unfortunately, it won't last a week. |
| 23:22.47 | SpeedEvil | 4-5 days at most |
| 23:22.49 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: it also means a lot of complexity in uboot to do visual IO |
| 23:22.52 | SpeedEvil | with the modem on |
| 23:23.03 | SpeedEvil | cw666: and multitasking over boot |
| 23:23.09 | SpeedEvil | which is a nightmare |
| 23:23.10 | emdete | SpeedEvil: shure. but steady-on is the goal, not always shutting down & booting |
| 23:23.11 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: have you gotten a modem-only power reading? |
| 23:23.19 | SpeedEvil | it's about 15mA |
| 23:23.23 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: multitaking over boot? it's not that bad, it could be done |
| 23:23.26 | SpeedEvil | Or somewhere under 100 hours |
| 23:23.33 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: i just dont see that effort would be useful |
| 23:23.59 | emdete | SpeedEvil: 30h are enough i think (worst case with bad connection) |
| 23:24.02 | SpeedEvil | Especially as it _should_ eventually come back from suspend-RAM a lot faster than several seconds |
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| 23:25.05 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: i'd still like a pic of your power measuring thing :-) |
| 23:26.41 | anrp | i have an old hp supply with mA resolution on my desk |
| 23:26.55 | anrp | however making a jig for the battery is preventing me from really testing |
| 23:27.05 | anrp | since i can't just hand it usb power |
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| 23:28.33 | cw666 | you really need to measure the power draw from a real battery though |
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| 23:58.54 | rwhitby | Some guy who wants DVB-T (yes, 'T', not 'H') and a Qt s/w GUI for it. |
| 23:59.36 | aevin | nice. :-) |
| 23:59.47 | aevin | you can combine stylus with antenna! |
