| 00:00.16 | polz | SpeedEvil: I thought that button just switched off the microphone |
| 00:00.48 | SpeedEvil | It should - according to the kernel source at least - produce an event |
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| 00:01.20 | cesarb | Wow, one of my relatives rented a DVD, and I just put it on my computer to see if DVD playback works on it... It starts with an *absolutely* *hilarious* "downloading is stealing" clip |
| 00:01.21 | polz | but how is it supposed to do that ? I mean... there are only four lines leading off the jack - ground, mic, left and right |
| 00:01.37 | polz | how could that button produce an event, then ? |
| 00:01.52 | SpeedEvil | I assume it's connecting something across the mic |
| 00:02.14 | cesarb | polz: er... with a pin which is physically pushed back by the plug, thus touching/stopping to touch another line? |
| 00:02.26 | cesarb | polz: like every other speaker plug detection? |
| 00:02.36 | polz | cesarb: he's talking about the button on the headset |
| 00:02.44 | cesarb | polz: ah, sorry |
| 00:02.59 | SpeedEvil | There is also an event on headset plug/unplug |
| 00:03.21 | cesarb | polz: I'd assume it shorts something to ground |
| 00:03.57 | polz | cesarb: I think it shorts the microphone... |
| 00:04.08 | SpeedEvil | There are any number of solutions from a resistor alone, to one-wire busses. |
| 00:04.21 | SpeedEvil | or even indeed shorting. |
| 00:04.23 | polz | but I'm not sure if the Neo can/does detect that |
| 00:04.35 | SpeedEvil | According to the kernel source, it should. |
| 00:04.47 | SpeedEvil | But it does not. |
| 00:07.21 | cesarb | the mic input seems supposed to be capacitively coupled, so shorting the mic input would indeed be the obvious solution |
| 00:07.37 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: where in the source? |
| 00:08.03 | SpeedEvil | the mic can't be capacitively coupled - it needs to have some power. |
| 00:08.15 | SpeedEvil | 1mA at a volt or two is typical |
| 00:09.38 | SpeedEvil | http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-inputdevice.patch |
| 00:09.42 | SpeedEvil | search Hold |
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| 00:10.16 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: correction, capacitively coupled to the codec |
| 00:10.29 | SpeedEvil | yes, it will be. |
| 00:10.41 | SpeedEvil | but there is also a resistor going to some power rail. |
| 00:11.01 | SpeedEvil | probably 1-10K or so. |
| 00:11.48 | SpeedEvil | The microphone is an electret microphone (almost certainly) which requires some power. the capacitor to the audio chip will go from the junction between the resistor and the mic |
| 00:11.51 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: hm, it should show up on /proc/interrupts... |
| 00:12.03 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: should be a IRQ-capable GPIO... |
| 00:12.17 | SpeedEvil | hexdump -C /dev/input/event0 |
| 00:12.24 | SpeedEvil | should reveal events |
| 00:12.25 | pjz | counter |
| 00:12.26 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter Got it, get yours from openmoko.com (and read topic) (1809;252) |
| 00:12.35 | SpeedEvil | it does for aux and jack insertion |
| 00:13.14 | polz | SpeedEvil: does it at least mute the microphone ? |
| 00:13.17 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: are you sure it's event0? IIRC there were three event sources... |
| 00:13.28 | polz | I mean... does your microphone even work ? |
| 00:13.37 | bedboi | EH??? |
| 00:13.39 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: I tried them all |
| 00:13.40 | bedboi | what's this: We sold out our Neo 1973 now. In fact, if you place order now. The ETA will be almost October 2007. |
| 00:13.45 | bedboi | wtf is that? |
| 00:13.50 | bedboi | they told me sept 20 |
| 00:13.55 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: waaay ahead of me, as usual ;-) |
| 00:14.56 | cesarb | polz: ouch |
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| 00:16.28 | polz | SpeedEvil: it works for me. |
| 00:16.39 | SpeedEvil | polz: you get events? |
| 00:16.46 | polz | yep. |
| 00:16.55 | SpeedEvil | On the headset button? |
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| 00:17.26 | polz | yep. |
| 00:17.29 | SpeedEvil | 2007.2, or 2007.1? |
| 00:17.36 | polz | 2007.2 |
| 00:17.48 | polz | ipkg upgraded a few minutes ago |
| 00:18.01 | polz | have you tested your microphone yet ? |
| 00:18.06 | SpeedEvil | no. |
| 00:18.41 | polz | maybe you have the same problem I had |
| 00:19.13 | cesarb | hm, the button on the rubbery headset which comes with the devkit doesn't seem to increase the corresponding counter in /proc/interrupts |
| 00:19.23 | polz | some wires not really soldered on inside the jack, probably because they had to use a lead-free solder |
| 00:19.58 | cesarb | polz: did you report that to the neo hw guys? that kind of feedback can be really important |
| 00:20.16 | SpeedEvil | polz: do you have a multimeter? |
| 00:20.47 | SpeedEvil | If so, can you say which pins the hold button acts on? |
| 00:21.18 | polz | I'm pretty sure it's the tip, but I'll check |
| 00:22.41 | polz | yep, it shorts the tip to the ground |
| 00:23.56 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: urgh, take a look at http://pinouts.ru/connector/4_pin_3.5mm_2.5mm_plug_connector.shtml |
| 00:24.13 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: is the multimeter's voltage/current low enough to not damage the mic? |
| 00:24.51 | mwester | Which one does it match most closely? |
| 00:24.58 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: there seems to be at least two different ones... |
| 00:25.14 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: one seems to have the mic at the tip, the other seems to have the mic at the middle ring |
| 00:26.14 | polz | cesarb: yeah, it is. |
| 00:26.21 | cesarb | so, assuming that page is not incorrect, there are several incompatible interfaces using the exact same connector |
| 00:26.31 | polz | cesarb: if it isn't, I've just fried the mic in the name of science :P |
| 00:26.41 | cesarb | the only common thing being the ground farthest from the tip |
| 00:27.05 | polz | cesarb: and the mic is definetly connected to the tip - I got to verify that when I opened the thing |
| 00:27.53 | polz | SpeedEvil: good luck with the headset |
| 00:29.26 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: yeah, looks like the hold button does nothing on mine too... I have exactly 1 interrupt on the HOLD pin (probably from even before plugging it in), how about you? |
| 00:30.06 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: btw, just noticed a constantly increasing timer tick... is the kernel tickless? if not, it could bring some interesting levels of power saving (perhaps even invalidating part of your power levels research) |
| 00:32.58 | polz | hmm... so I'm not the only one with a faulty headset |
| 00:33.21 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: unfortunately not - from the scope. |
| 00:33.29 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: ticks aren't a big part of the power use. |
| 00:33.49 | cesarb | polz: well, i didn't test the mic, and I'm not in the mood today of digging into crazy alsa state files to find some way to route the mic to somewhere so I can check if it works |
| 00:33.55 | polz | cesarb: you can cut the connector along the seam, pry it open.. |
| 00:34.17 | polz | and then solder the wire that's farthest from the base |
| 00:34.24 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: but if the ticks happen often enough that the chip cannot get into a lower power setting... |
| 00:34.55 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: Well - the problem is that the lower power states are not implemented now, so it's quite irrelevant :) |
| 00:35.35 | polz | and besides, it can't play music when it's in the lower states :) |
| 00:35.36 | cesarb | polz: well, if the problem is with the headset, finding a compatible headset (preferably a non-in-canal one) would be an alternative solution |
| 00:35.58 | SpeedEvil | polz: in principle, it can play mp3 at 60Mhz or so. |
| 00:36.09 | SpeedEvil | It certainly can play them at 100MHz |
| 00:36.14 | polz | cesarb: I guess you're less stingy and impatient than I |
| 00:36.15 | SpeedEvil | I haven't tried at 60Mhz |
| 00:36.29 | SpeedEvil | annoyingly, the undervolting possibilities are limited. |
| 00:36.39 | SpeedEvil | as the power managment chip only does .3V increments |
| 00:37.25 | SpeedEvil | It _almost_ works at 1.5V |
| 00:37.25 | polz | SpeedEvil: are your efforts documented anywhere ? |
| 00:37.25 | SpeedEvil | Not really. |
| 00:37.25 | SpeedEvil | I should do that. |
| 00:37.25 | SpeedEvil | I need to recheck this, with pictures. |
| 00:37.26 | SpeedEvil | (of scope) |
| 00:37.45 | cesarb | polz: there's no way I can be stingy if I paid double for the neo due to the crazy taxes (which I knew of before ordering) |
| 00:38.25 | polz | cesarb: hehe, I waited for 1 additional month for a friend to bring it from the USA personally |
| 00:38.37 | cesarb | polz: well, then you sure are stingy ;-) |
| 00:39.12 | polz | yep. Only bought the Neo after I checked it was cheaper than the comparable phones they sell here |
| 00:39.45 | cesarb | polz: these "comparable phones" probably can dial without having to hack /etc/init.d/gsmd ;-) |
| 00:40.09 | polz | cesarb: the Neo can, too... most of the time.. kinda |
| 00:40.22 | cesarb | polz: yeah, right... |
| 00:40.28 | mwester | That makes it more fun, though... :p |
| 00:40.35 | cesarb | mwester: for sure! :D |
| 00:40.40 | polz | cesarb: but some of them don't have GPS... which also doesn't work properly ;) |
| 00:40.41 | mwester | Kinda like rolling the dice with each call. |
| 00:41.14 | polz | the best "feature" is that the dialer sometimes "forgets" to ring on an incoming call |
| 00:41.36 | mwester | BTW, can't we get the official pinout for the headphone/mic connector? |
| 00:42.03 | mwester | Maybe roh would be kind enough to get that from fic and put it on the wiki. Beats cutting one open... |
| 00:42.12 | polz | mwester: I'm 100% sure the tip is connected to the mike |
| 00:42.20 | polz | and the base is ground |
| 00:42.56 | polz | as for the left and right - just insert it slowly while playing some music to find out which is left and which is right |
| 00:43.02 | cesarb | mwester: well, we got the official pinout for the debug connector. next to that, the official pinout for a puny analog mic-and-speaker plug would be nothing. |
| 00:44.31 | polz | btw, which earpiece is supposed to be L and which R ? |
| 00:45.06 | polz | I mean.. they could be worn either way, and I think there's a switch to invert the stereo |
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| 00:49.50 | mwester | polz: I'm actually wondering not so much about the mic or headphones as the button -- might it be that we get no events because the headset button wiring is incorrect wrt to the connector? |
| 00:55.18 | cesarb | mwester: but didn't polz get the events after fixing the conector? |
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| 00:57.10 | mwester | I don't think he explicitly said that he got events; just that the mic began working, and that the button muted the mic (which would be reasonable, as it is wired to short the mic) |
| 00:58.08 | mwester | It seems strange that someone would use the speaker lines for an input, but there are some strange wiring diagrams on that connector wiring page that was posted here earlier... |
| 01:05.59 | rwhitby | mwester: gsm firmware upgrade path? |
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| 01:11.09 | notserpe | are the lists dead? |
| 01:11.20 | rwhitby | we believe so |
| 01:12.25 | notserpe | bummer |
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| 01:29.08 | hhf423 | hmm, is the tasks icon fixed for you with the newest build? |
| 01:29.32 | SpeedEvil | <polz> SpeedEvil: it works for me. |
| 01:29.32 | SpeedEvil | <SpeedEvil> polz: you get events? |
| 01:29.32 | SpeedEvil | <polz> yep. |
| 01:29.46 | SpeedEvil | ->mwester |
| 01:30.05 | hhf423 | notserpe: yes, lists dead |
| 01:30.16 | hhf423 | notserpe: dead as gsmd most of the time |
| 01:30.22 | notserpe | like sco |
| 01:30.37 | hhf423 | sco dead? chapter 11 only, no? |
| 01:30.49 | notserpe | same diff, no? |
| 01:30.53 | SpeedEvil | Not quite. |
| 01:31.01 | SpeedEvil | If the company is fundamentally sound |
| 01:31.12 | notserpe | yeah, I just read about the trial being off and them getting to spend money while novell still doesn't get any |
| 01:31.14 | SpeedEvil | but having severe cashflow problems, chap11 can be a breathing space. |
| 01:31.24 | SpeedEvil | But, ... |
| 01:31.54 | notserpe | anyway IANAL... but I laughed when I read linuxdevice's " stick a fork" in them. |
| 01:32.13 | hhf423 | aren't a number of US airlines operating under ch 11 all the time? |
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| 01:40.17 | hhf423 | off for bed now |
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| 04:42.45 | rwhitby | nope, still required |
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| 05:03.59 | cw666 | rwhitby: do you have a pin# on your SIM? |
| 05:04.05 | rwhitby | no |
| 05:10.04 | rwhitby | hmm - or maybe I just work out how to get bluetooth and pand running on my freecom fsg-3 router ... |
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| 05:40.52 | mrcucumber | what's the URL for the wiki page with all the rediculous rumors/ |
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| 06:06.51 | rwhitby | mrcucumber: slashdot? ;-) |
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| 06:25.38 | blindcoder | moin |
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| 06:27.27 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 06:30.08 | Selenolycus | Question: Can the OpenMoko currently function as a modem? |
| 06:30.08 | aloril | Selenolycus: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
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| 06:34.49 | Selenolycus | Or, rather, will it be possible that it will ever? |
| 06:35.39 | rwhitby | Selenolycus: there have been recent u-boot checkins which allow gsm passthrough |
| 06:36.30 | Selenolycus | Nice. |
| 06:39.42 | rwhitby | and of course there will be BT<->GSM (GTA01) and wifi<->GSM (GTA02) gateways eventually |
| 06:40.16 | Selenolycus | I don't see any mention anywhere of the processor the 1973 uses |
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| 06:43.26 | rwhitby | Selenolycus: the wiki links first given to you by the bot above definitely answer that one |
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| 07:12.27 | Linux_Galore | SCO has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070914/sco_group_bankruptcy.html?.v=4 |
| 07:14.45 | Selenolycus | They finally do something rational! |
| 07:17.57 | Linux_Galore | In other news, due to a massive shortages chairs have doubled in price in Redmond |
| 07:18.23 | blindcoder | hehe |
| 07:18.44 | baird | I'll buy the OpenServer rights... so I can do /something/ to it.. -_- |
| 07:18.47 | Linux_Galore | s/a// |
| 07:24.55 | polz | cesarb, mwester: by "connector" I meant the stuff beneath the plastic inside the jack, and yes, I got the events, not just the mike working |
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| 07:44.36 | edistar | is the mailinglist down? |
| 07:45.39 | polz | edistar: apparently, yes. |
| 07:46.00 | edistar | polz: I was wondering why I didn't get any openmoko mails anymore. |
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| 07:47.01 | polz | edistar: I've only just woken up, so I haven't noticed that yet :) |
| 07:47.12 | polz | hadn't, sorry |
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| 08:28.32 | PBeck | hi |
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| 09:36.24 | _Jan_ | hello, are anybody here who can talk german? |
| 09:36.25 | aloril | _Jan_: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
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| 09:43.34 | _Jan_ | Hello, anybody talks german? |
| 09:44.36 | fgau | _Jan_: we are here: #neo1973-germany |
| 09:44.48 | _Jan_ | Thanks |
| 09:45.12 | _Jan_ | Which Server? |
| 09:45.24 | fgau | freenode.net |
| 09:45.58 | _Jan_ | Can't find you :( |
| 09:46.23 | fgau | try irc.freenode.net |
| 09:46.34 | _Jan_ | I have |
| 09:47.51 | _Jan_ | Found you |
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| 10:02.16 | edistar | why is there still a screenshot of 2007.1 on the front page of the wiki? |
| 10:09.00 | dcordes | I think they are also on the openmoko.com |
| 10:09.12 | dcordes | maybe because gta01 comes with 2007.1? |
| 10:12.01 | SpeedEvil | Maybe because nobodies updated it. |
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| 10:17.04 | polz | btw, was the dialer in 2007.1 any better than it is in .2 ? |
| 10:18.21 | pH5 | no |
| 10:18.24 | SpeedEvil | I've only used it a couple of times |
| 10:18.28 | SpeedEvil | worked for me |
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| 10:20.30 | edistar | I want a neo now... :( but 300$ is a bit expensive if a new improved version comes out in december.. |
| 10:21.56 | polz | edistar: good things come to those who wait |
| 10:22.05 | SpeedEvil | and pay $450 |
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| 10:25.21 | polz | and still not be able to see what's on the screen if you try to read it in the sun :> |
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| 10:34.57 | jpcass | almost watchable full screen video with mplayer ;-) |
| 10:35.26 | jpcass | (if you re-code it to 10fps and turn everything else off...) |
| 10:36.04 | SpeedEvil | QVGA mode on the lcm works |
| 10:36.15 | SpeedEvil | It plays most VCD sized stuff just fine |
| 10:36.25 | SpeedEvil | Though it's not properly setup |
| 10:36.32 | jpcass | speedevil: really? how do you set it (fbset doesnt offer..) |
| 10:36.39 | SpeedEvil | I don't know |
| 10:36.52 | SpeedEvil | nobodies written up their attempts |
| 10:37.09 | SpeedEvil | the other problem is that there is no nice optimised rotator |
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| 10:37.12 | jpcass | when I checked (~3 weeks ago) stefan said they hadnt implemented it in the driver yet... |
| 10:37.24 | jpcass | yeah, I'm rotating in mencoder |
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| 10:42.18 | polz | doesn't the chipset support rotating ? |
| 10:42.22 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 10:42.33 | polz | but it can scale, right ? |
| 10:42.40 | SpeedEvil | ˆNo. |
| 10:42.45 | SpeedEvil | the display does |
| 10:42.55 | polz | oh, OK. |
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| 10:59.04 | edistar | I keep getting the error: NOTE: package eds-dbus-1.4.0+svnnow-r6: task do_fetch: failed |
| 10:59.25 | edistar | what do do? it seems to just not be able to download it |
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| 11:01.34 | jpcass | edistar: what does the svn command look like? i had problems with it always trying to svn co -r 1 ... |
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| 12:20.10 | edistar | jpcass: NOTE: Fetch svn://svn.o-hand.com/repos/eds-dbus;module=trunk;proto=http |
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| 12:20.23 | PBeck | re |
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| 12:21.49 | edistar | jpcass: HTTP Anforderung gesendet, warte auf Antwort... 404 Not Found |
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| 12:23.03 | matsch | Well, Ijust would like to know, whether openmoko and the neo will support the bluetooth sim access profile to connect to a standard car mobile phone equuipment? |
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| 12:26.14 | Writchie | matsch: this is unlikely until later models - the SIM is attached directly to the GSM modem chipset and support from this profile will require remoting the sim through the interface to the modem chipset. It will eventually happen, but not likely for a couple of years. |
| 12:26.30 | Writchie | matsch: this not official - just IMHO |
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| 12:27.30 | Writchie | matsch: we also want to remote the entire GSM layer to support UMA |
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| 12:29.50 | matsch | I am not familiar with those details, I am afraid, but from the practical point of usage I would really like such a bluethooth connection to work earlier than just in a couple of years |
| 12:31.37 | SpeedEvil | It's probably not going to happen in the next model after the december available one |
| 12:31.41 | Writchie | matsch: everyone would like to see new stuff appear in products immediately. However, the time from specifications to market is typically 2 to 5 years |
| 12:32.07 | SpeedEvil | simply because the GSM chipset is basically a closed 'blob' |
| 12:32.37 | SpeedEvil | Making it other than a closed blob is very complex. |
| 12:32.38 | Writchie | even if you own it all, the design process for a handset is normally 2 years from start to market |
| 12:33.29 | SpeedEvil | and having the bluetooth and SIM setup work together pretty much implies that |
| 12:34.13 | Writchie | at least it fits in the general architecture of a GSM7.10 mux based device, so I'm pretty sure it will appear relatively soon. However, it will still take time get it into actual product. |
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| 12:35.14 | SpeedEvil | It's possible it can be done with a software bridge through the TI chipset? or are you meaning in principle. |
| 12:35.31 | SpeedEvil | (without further mods to the software by TI) |
| 12:35.38 | Writchie | need TI software |
| 12:35.46 | Writchie | but I think FIC has access to that |
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| 12:36.03 | Writchie | whether its doable depends on internal software architecture. |
| 12:36.10 | SpeedEvil | K. |
| 12:36.18 | Writchie | in principle its properly layered to do it. |
| 12:36.26 | Writchie | but of course the usual race conditions will appear |
| 12:36.50 | Writchie | and the bandwidth over the gsm7.10 probably has to be raised |
| 12:37.00 | Writchie | which is probably why motorola went USB |
| 12:37.13 | Writchie | personally, i think you need better high speed uarts |
| 12:37.25 | Writchie | and handle both BT and GSM with serial |
| 12:37.40 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 12:37.41 | Writchie | due to various unneeded USB complexity suckage |
| 12:38.13 | Writchie | BT spec is the right way to do it - protocol that can be transported over HS serial or USB |
| 12:38.30 | Writchie | and its already in silicon in high volume for BT |
| 12:39.05 | Writchie | at least on ARM7 devices |
| 12:39.39 | Writchie | like a $2 CSR chip |
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| 12:55.23 | Shoragan | mickey|bbiab, are you back? |
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| 13:43.25 | aloril | is it easy to copy stuff between smart phones (from/to friends phones)? |
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| 13:46.27 | cesarb | aloril: I'd guess so, since if BT hasn't been locked out by the carrier, you can send things easily via BT OBEX even from a normal phone |
| 13:47.11 | aloril | hmm.. so there is already standard, anybody have practical examples? |
| 13:47.22 | aloril | s/example/experience/ |
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| 13:48.02 | aloril | I must admit thought come from this command at /.: "The iPod touch is the first iPod to have wireless capability, although it doesn't use it to synch with a computer or friends' iPods." |
| 13:48.43 | cesarb | aloril: I have been sent background pictures for my phone by a friend, for instance; I also often used to send pictures from my razr to my palm (where I can store it on a SD card), and palm's OS is the same (almost) as one found on a treo |
| 13:48.45 | cjb_ie | what _does_ it use it for? |
| 13:48.48 | aloril | friends want to share images they have snapped, music they listen to, videos they look at, etc.. |
| 13:48.49 | cesarb | aloril: both via bluetooth |
| 13:49.02 | aloril | "Instead, you can use it to browse the Web, watch YouTube videos or download music from a WiFi-specific iTunes Music Store. " |
| 13:49.06 | cesarb | aloril: ah, I've done that too (sharing images I've snapped) |
| 13:49.23 | cesarb | aloril: this all is why BT was such a must that FIC delayed GTA01 to add BT |
| 13:49.28 | aloril | and its easy as phones are configured? |
| 13:49.45 | sagaci2 | cesarb: But, we can't use the BT for a headset? |
| 13:50.40 | cesarb | aloril: very easy. on my razr, I press menu on a picture, chose a menu option badly placed way down on the menu ("Copy"), chose the destination (or the last option, to scan for nearby BT devices), and the receiver just has to accept |
| 13:50.56 | cesarb | aloril: on the palm, it's even easier, since the menu option is much less badly placed |
| 13:51.18 | cesarb | sagaci2: we can, but I've never used that (I don't have a headset) |
| 13:51.26 | aloril | hmm.. ok, then no extra potential for Neo1973 here (except for using stuff) |
| 13:52.18 | cesarb | aloril: the extra potential would be about the same one would have on a smartphone (not a normal phone), where you can (at least on palm) create new bt-using applications (like a palm chat one) |
| 13:52.27 | sagaci2 | cesarb: We've tried with some headsets. Somebody said the driver's not compiled with the option for headsets (something different perhaps). I haven't looked into it myself, just tried to use it. |
| 13:52.53 | aloril | hmmm.. p2p school wide network ;-) |
| 13:53.15 | sagaci2 | Somebody updated the wiki page, I'll give it a go again. |
| 13:53.20 | cesarb | aloril: heh, not school wide, but you could share with people nearby... (BT range is very short) |
| 13:53.46 | aloril | yes, but if crowd is enough big, you could forward packets |
| 13:54.48 | cjb_ie | bt only has 3-bit addressing iirc |
| 13:55.03 | cesarb | aloril: perhaps. I know BT can do it, but I've never seen it being used to connect to more than one device at a time; besides, it's slow (and would get even slower with forwarding), and you can only connect to a few people at a time (about 5 IIRC) |
| 13:55.36 | aloril | could still be used for free IM |
| 13:55.53 | cesarb | aloril: BT was never intended as a general-purpose networking protocol, after all... It's mostly for interconecting your gadgets and interacting directly with other people's nearby devices (the sending pictures scenario) |
| 13:56.26 | cesarb | aloril: yeah, it could (hampered by the lack of a standard IM-over-bluetooth scenario, unlike file transfer, which uses IR's OBEX) |
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| 14:05.38 | emdete | what about PAN, isn't that an 1:n network? |
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| 14:06.23 | emdete | (i often wonder why companies put wlan in such small devices, where bt would be sufficient...) |
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| 14:09.02 | DukeOfURL | good morning |
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| 14:13.25 | sagaci2 | no big joy on the BT headset. It connected, then later disconnected. Never got the audio working through it. :( |
| 14:13.28 | zecke | stefan|hospital: alphaone: Shoragan: oh, anything important? |
| 14:15.02 | alphaone | zecke: He broke his hand boarding... |
| 14:15.16 | alphaone | Responses will be slow due to one-hand-typing |
| 14:15.53 | zecke | hmm |
| 14:16.01 | stefan|hospital | zecke: I broke my right arm on thursday. Snowboarding |
| 14:16.01 | stefan|hospital | zecke: And i'm right-handed :( |
| 14:16.33 | DukeOfURL | where do you have snow? |
| 14:16.34 | zecke | oh, get well soon |
| 14:16.38 | Lynet | emdete: For some reason, the PAN BT profile is seldom supported by devices. |
| 14:17.00 | Lynet | emdete: Even my swiss army knife N95 doesn't. |
| 14:17.28 | stefan|hospital | zecke: Thanks, still have some hope for OEDEM |
| 14:17.32 | stefan|hospital | DukeOfURL: snow-dome.de |
| 14:19.31 | cesarb | Lynet: but linux, as usual, already do support it ;-) |
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| 14:20.46 | Lynet | cesarb: Yup, which would be a big win for OpenMoko compared to many other phones. :) |
| 14:20.51 | cesarb | emdete: they probably put wlan in not because of the efficiency, but because of the sheer amount of wlan APs you can find almost everywhere |
| 14:21.11 | cesarb | emdete: PAN client would be next to useless with no BT PAN APs around |
| 14:22.59 | emdete | cesarb: shure... avm supports it alot. but you are right, i don't know any other device but linux-pc to support it out of the box |
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| 14:27.14 | DukeOfURL | stefan|hospital: is that near Garmish? |
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| 14:37.09 | stefan|hospital | DukeOfURL: no, near hamburg http://www.snow-dom.de/ |
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| 14:38.28 | J-23 | 1004 users more ;) |
| 14:41.42 | DukeOfURL | is there any new info concerning the AT&T SIM cards? |
| 14:42.07 | DukeOfURL | the ones that won't operate in the Neo? |
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| 15:19.23 | Sup3rkiddo | hmm..i didnt get any mails from openmoko devel lists.. |
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| 15:20.52 | SpeedEvil | They're just resting. |
| 15:22.19 | Sup3rkiddo | :P all right if you say so |
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| 15:37.51 | AntonTakk | i wonder why everyone wants diferent backs, but no-one has suggested a modular back |
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| 15:39.26 | Sup3rkiddo | oh dang, anyone getting webkit-gtk built?, compile error here |
| 15:43.14 | baird | Sup3rkiddo: have you accidently tried building as root, and then resumed the build as a user? Webkit bombed here after I made that mistake.. |
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| 15:53.36 | Sup3rkiddo | nope |
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| 16:05.17 | mwester | Sup3rkiddo: svn: Syntax error in revision argument '25582-r25571 |
| 16:05.35 | Sup3rkiddo | mwester, yes!, wow, atleast i am not the only one..yay |
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| 16:45.09 | CathodioN | hey all |
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| 16:51.32 | hhf423 | re |
| 16:52.28 | jpcass | mwester: yes, if you edit /openembedded/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrev.inc you can correct to "25582" |
| 16:54.17 | CathodioN | can anyone help me out with a little serial port problem? |
| 16:54.55 | CathodioN | Im running the GPS location sharing project, on projects.openmoko.org |
| 16:55.07 | CathodioN | but im a java programmer.. .so not really deep into linux |
| 16:55.28 | CathodioN | now im trying to test the connection to my Garmin |
| 16:55.45 | CathodioN | but i don't know how to reach it |
| 16:56.03 | CathodioN | im using a com port |
| 16:56.17 | CathodioN | the mobo offers only one, so i guess its com0 |
| 16:57.34 | jpcass | neo serial ports are /dev/ttySAC[0|1] |
| 16:57.49 | jpcass | ttySAC0 is used for communicating to GSM modem... |
| 16:58.12 | edistar | can someone help me? I don't know what the error is exactly in the following: http://nopaste.org/p/aylBoNJdlb |
| 16:58.39 | *** part/#openmoko CathodioN (n=geert@h8441208108.dsl.speedlinq.nl) |
| 16:59.03 | jpcass | dont know what is exposed on the debug board... |
| 16:59.26 | jpcass | edistar: your build is issuing fetch command: svn co -r {now} http://svn.o-han...... |
| 16:59.39 | jpcass | -r must have a number as an argument... |
| 17:00.12 | polz | hmm... is anyone else having problems with building webkit-gtk ? |
| 17:00.42 | jpcass | polz: yes, there is an incorrect entry in /openembedded/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrev.inc |
| 17:00.48 | jpcass | v |
| 17:00.51 | jpcass | edit /openembedded/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrev.inc you can correct to "25582" |
| 17:00.56 | edistar | jpcass: so what do I need to change? |
| 17:00.57 | jpcass | sorry CTRL-v |
| 17:01.43 | jpcass | edit the webkit like in that inc file, it should just ="25582" |
| 17:01.51 | jpcass | s/like/line/ |
| 17:02.05 | polz | jpcass: how did you find _that_ ? |
| 17:02.17 | jpcass | polz: quite some grepping... |
| 17:02.55 | polz | jpcass: thanks :) |
| 17:03.15 | edistar | jpcass: how do I tell the make to add a number? :P |
| 17:03.19 | Sup3rkiddo | polz, i do |
| 17:03.31 | jpcass | polz: youre welcome ;-) |
| 17:03.49 | Sup3rkiddo | jpcass, thanks man...welcome me too..:P |
| 17:03.54 | polz | wheee, the lists seem to be working again |
| 17:04.31 | edistar | jpcass: plz help... been trying for about 2 days |
| 17:05.11 | jpcass | edistar: not sure about eds-dbus ... I'll try to have a look... in general you are looking at the SRC_URI or SVNREV variables in .bb files... |
| 17:06.22 | edistar | jpcass: I'll need to learn bitbake generally then? |
| 17:08.06 | jpcass | edistar: look in packages/eds/eds-dbus_svn.bb : SRC_URI doesnt specify a specific revision... |
| 17:08.20 | edistar | jpcass: what number do I need to add? |
| 17:08.40 | jpcass | but PV is set to svn${SRCDATE} ... |
| 17:09.06 | jpcass | i think that's where your -r {now} is coming from ... |
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| 17:09.20 | jpcass | dont know still looking... |
| 17:09.34 | roh | jpcass did you update your mtn recently? i see a diff here in the commitlog which says: |
| 17:09.35 | roh | -SRCREV_pn-webkit-gtk ?= "25507" |
| 17:09.36 | roh | +SRCREV_pn-webkit-gtk ?= "25582-r25571" |
| 17:09.56 | roh | in sane-srvrevs.inc |
| 17:10.21 | roh | jpcass webkit has multiple components of which webkit and webcore are taken to form the rev |
| 17:10.50 | jpcass | roh: yes my mtn is quite recent - all entries in sane-srcrevs must be numbers they are used directly by svn as in : svn co -r {number from sane-srcrevs} |
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| 17:11.28 | jpcass | roh: sane-srcrevs is automatically generated, perhaps there is a bug in the logic? |
| 17:11.38 | roh | jpcass the comment is: sane-srcrevs: fix webkit entry, it uses SRCREV_FORMAT, which the generator script doesn't pickup |
| 17:11.55 | roh | ask koen, he checked that in, so he knows the logic there |
| 17:12.06 | Sup3rkiddo | changing the line in .inc works here... |
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| 17:13.58 | jpcass | edistar: for a quick fix you could try changing svn://svn.o-hand.com/repos/${PN};module=trunk;proto=http |
| 17:14.08 | jpcass | to svn://svn.o-hand.com/repos/${PN};module=trunk;proto=http;rev=HEAD in the .bb file |
| 17:14.20 | jpcass | might work ;-) - no guarantees! |
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| 17:22.31 | mickeyl | stefan|hospital: *sigh* sorry about that, i knew how you were looking forward to the vacation w/ Nicole |
| 17:22.41 | mickeyl | stefan|hospital: get well soon!!! |
| 17:25.19 | pH5 | ouf. strongly seconded. fast healing, stefan|hospital! |
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| 17:38.06 | stefan|hospital | mickey|dinner, pH5: Thanks |
| 17:38.35 | jpcass | edistar: it should be picking up a date from openembedded/conf/distro/include/sane-srcdates.inc (eds-dbus = "20070704") |
| 17:38.52 | jpcass | edistar: for some reason I dont know that's not getting included... |
| 17:39.42 | jpcass | edistar: if you explictly set SRCDATE = "20070704" in the eds-dbus_svn.bb file it should download the right revision (safer than HEAD) |
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| 18:09.36 | _buz | nokia wants to do away with competing flash formats, by introducing yet another one http://feeds.arstechnica.com/~r/arstechnica/BAaf/~3/156903198/20070915-nokia-at-work-an-yet-another-removable-flash-memory-format.html |
| 18:09.46 | SpeedEvil | Haha. |
| 18:10.39 | SpeedEvil | What makes otherwise sane people wake up in the morning and think we need a new compression, or flash format. |
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| 18:19.18 | anrp | that's easy |
| 18:19.24 | anrp | nokia would own it and therefore make more $ |
| 18:22.25 | _buz | sony tried that and it pretty much didnt work |
| 18:22.30 | _buz | as did fujitsu |
| 18:24.07 | cesarb | It's too late for them; the multitude of SD/MMC variants seem to already have won |
| 18:24.09 | *** join/#openmoko Devestate (n=Devestat@75.129.165.121) |
| 18:25.11 | cesarb | The only way it can suceed is if they manage to turn it into something backed by a coalition of manufacturers... |
| 18:25.16 | *** join/#openmoko Pupeno (n=Pupeno@dsl-37-170.dsl.netsource.ie) |
| 18:25.35 | berkus | umm guys any news on the new devices shipment? |
| 18:25.41 | SpeedEvil | berkus: no. |
| 18:25.48 | berkus | :( |
| 18:27.54 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03shoragan * r2973 10/trunk/src/target/ (12 files in 2 dirs): Change the filename to something similar to the existing ones. |
| 18:30.46 | *** join/#openmoko jerry1981 (n=jerry@ip-218.net-82-216-103.rev.numericable.fr) |
| 18:32.17 | Jiten | cesarb: that article says that nokia is partnering with samsung and sony ericsson and several chipmakers. That doesn't count as a coalition? |
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| 18:33.42 | cesarb | Jiten: in the best slashdot tradition, I wrote that first and then went to read the article |
| 18:33.54 | Jiten | though, it seems they're planning on making it several times faster than anything on the market right now |
| 18:33.57 | cesarb | (of course, the *real* slashdot tradition would be to simply never actually read the article) |
| 18:35.47 | Jiten | considering the features they're planning, I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes standard for PCs too. |
| 18:36.06 | Jiten | it sounds like it'd be faster than anything on the market right now |
| 18:36.46 | Jiten | 90 minute hd movie in a few seconds sounds quite a bit faster than current hard drives |
| 18:36.55 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2974 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/artwork/sounds/ringtone_classy.wav: artwork/sounds: add classy ringtone |
| 18:38.47 | Vegar | haha |
| 18:38.54 | Vegar | that's a nice ringtone, mickeyl |
| 18:39.02 | mickeyl | :) |
| 18:39.08 | Vegar | I love it |
| 18:41.31 | cesarb | Jiten: there's a small problem with something which will only be released on 2009 being "faster than everything on the market" |
| 18:41.50 | cesarb | Jiten: you are comparing something from 2009 with the common ones from 2007 |
| 18:42.04 | cesarb | Jiten: it's not that surprising that the 2009 one is faster than the 2007 one |
| 18:42.24 | pH5 | mickeyl: can we http://en.pastebin.ca/698774 to not include the gps panel applet on gps-less devices by default? |
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| 18:43.53 | Jiten | cesarb: should go without saying that I'm comparing it to current situation :P |
| 18:44.49 | Jiten | though, wouldn't be surprising to have seriously fast flash drives for SATA soonish. |
| 18:44.52 | cesarb | Jiten: yeah, it being faster than anything on the market now isn't that big of a deal for something which doesn't even exist yet. Most important, will it be faster than anything on the market when it actually gets to be part of the market? |
| 18:45.09 | Lynet | What's the upper speed limit on SD anyway? |
| 18:45.22 | SpeedEvil | Bandwidth over the connector |
| 18:45.33 | SpeedEvil | which has poorly defined inpedance at high speeds. |
| 18:45.44 | cesarb | Jiten: making a fast SATA flash drive isn't even that hard - just use several chips and read from them in paralell, instant xN speedup, repeat as often as you want |
| 18:45.47 | SpeedEvil | It's already up to 50Mhz at 4 bit wide |
| 18:46.18 | SpeedEvil | I wouldn't be astonished at it getting to 150Mhz - more might be problematic. |
| 18:46.21 | cesarb | Jiten: the SATA interface is already quite fast, and LVDS can be made to run quite fast |
| 18:46.21 | Jiten | cesarb: that's exactly why I'm wondering about not seeing any. |
| 18:46.27 | cesarb | Jiten: price |
| 18:46.42 | cesarb | Jiten: SSDs are still very expensive |
| 18:47.12 | Lynet | SpeedEvil: I suppose the SD spec sets an upper limit somewhere. |
| 18:47.15 | SpeedEvil | They have been 'going to replace rotating disks real soon now' since I had a 500M hard drive. |
| 18:47.16 | cesarb | Jiten: using more chips in parallel would also mean you would have to make a higher-capacity disk (or use lower-capacity chips), thus increasing the price even more |
| 18:47.25 | SpeedEvil | Lynet: no. |
| 18:47.38 | SpeedEvil | Lynet: as faster transfers would nescessitate a faster spec |
| 18:47.42 | SpeedEvil | and newer spec |
| 18:47.48 | Jiten | well, there are 64GB SSDs on the market already... rather expensive though. |
| 18:47.51 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: they probably would, in a ideal world, end up being a new step on the memory hierarchy |
| 18:48.05 | Jiten | I read about a 416GB one too. not yet available though |
| 18:48.15 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: registers>cache>cache>cache>memory>SSD>HDD>tape>internet |
| 18:48.16 | SpeedEvil | Flash fast enough for XIP - excecute in place would be nice |
| 18:48.24 | SpeedEvil | but that requires it to be _very_ fast. |
| 18:48.56 | SpeedEvil | as it means you don't need to copy applications into RAM, before running. |
| 18:49.47 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: isn't it more convenient to just copy everything into RAM? there is not much need for XIP anymore since large enough memories are now cheap enough... |
| 18:49.56 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: or are you worried about the power usage for the refresh? |
| 18:49.58 | SpeedEvil | To an extent, yes. |
| 18:50.15 | SpeedEvil | It's an 'it would be nice' feature, rather than required. |
| 18:51.04 | SpeedEvil | For example, in principle, all applications running do not need any space for in-memory code. |
| 18:51.11 | SpeedEvil | they only use data memory. |
| 18:51.15 | SpeedEvil | which can be a big help. |
| 18:51.28 | Jiten | hmmh... if you compare current flash to older ram chips, how does the speed match? |
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| 18:51.46 | SpeedEvil | quite well on read. |
| 18:51.52 | SpeedEvil | writes still take ages |
| 18:52.03 | anrp | charge pumping and all that fun |
| 18:52.48 | Jiten | so XIP with the temporary parts allocated from RAM might be doable if you're not going for high speed device? |
| 18:53.21 | SpeedEvil | Not really - for XIP, you want the flash to be as fast as 'normal' RAM |
| 18:53.37 | Jiten | how much slower is flash for reading? |
| 18:53.40 | *** part/#openmoko J-23 (n=Moarc_zi@a105.net128.okay.pl) |
| 18:53.50 | Jiten | compared to ... DDR2-667 I guess |
| 18:54.26 | anrp | slower? |
| 18:54.32 | anrp | that ram is way fast |
| 18:54.56 | Jiten | slower is the assumption. I just want to know how much slower :) |
| 18:55.10 | anrp | that depends! |
| 18:55.18 | anrp | it's really too general a question |
| 18:55.30 | anrp | since i could take forty seven zillion 8 bit eeproms and make a faster "ram" |
| 18:56.10 | anrp | but you wouldn't really consider it faster |
| 18:56.33 | anrp | ...well, technically, it would be |
| 18:56.40 | anrp | but you'd have to be batshit insane to use it |
| 18:57.07 | anrp | and it would be mega $ |
| 18:57.54 | Jiten | ok lets just compare reading and assume the flash should be the same amount and cost about the same as ddr2-667. |
| 18:58.15 | Jiten | specific enough? |
| 18:58.30 | SpeedEvil | The problem is that what's available does not equal what's possible |
| 18:58.52 | SpeedEvil | as for obvious reasons, most flash is engineered to go into applications like the last hundred million chips that were sold. |
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| 19:02.55 | anrp | ... |
| 19:03.03 | anrp | whoever redesigned samsung's website needs to be shot |
| 19:04.31 | cesarb | anrp: deeply and fully agree |
| 19:04.45 | cesarb | anrp: flash-laden monstrosity |
| 19:04.50 | cesarb | anrp: impossible to find anything |
| 19:05.06 | cesarb | anrp: AND they broken all the older links from pretty much the whole of the world web |
| 19:05.13 | anrp | yeah, no kidding |
| 19:05.29 | cesarb | anrp: these kinds of site were very common ten years ago |
| 19:05.47 | cesarb | anrp: back when using JAVA for navigation buttons was somehow considered acceptable |
| 19:05.53 | anrp | Jiten: some of the fastest NOR flash (better kind) available is about equiv to PC-133 |
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| 19:07.26 | Jiten | ok, so in embedded environment that sounds about fast enough for XIP |
| 19:07.50 | anrp | that stuff is also seriously expensive... |
| 19:07.58 | anrp | nand is what is usually meant when people say flash |
| 19:09.03 | anrp | an example nand speed is around 40mb/s, with 4kb blocks (peak) |
| 19:09.32 | anrp | the blocks is what kills XIP though |
| 19:09.45 | anrp | since a block device and a ram are fundamentally different |
| 19:09.51 | Lynet | SpeedEvil: Regarding SD clock, I just checked the spec: "According to the Physical Layer Specification, the maximum SD Clock |
| 19:09.51 | Lynet | frequency is 25 MHz in normal speed mode and 50MHz in high speed mode, |
| 19:09.51 | Lynet | and shall never exceed this limi |
| 19:10.09 | Lynet | gaaaah, stupid copy-paste. |
| 19:10.17 | anrp | mm delicious copypasta |
| 19:10.34 | SpeedEvil | Lynet: however, it does not specify what may occur in future standards. |
| 19:10.53 | SpeedEvil | Lynet: as long as it is backwards compatible with this version, it's not a problem. |
| 19:10.56 | anrp | the almighty wiki has a pretty good table comparing different consumer flash techs |
| 19:11.25 | anrp | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Digital_card#Different_types_of_MMC.2FSD_cards |
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| 19:12.06 | anrp | absolute max of any of them is SD at 200mbit -> 25mbyte/sec |
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| 19:12.15 | Lynet | SpeedEvil: True. So it really depends on how far the physical spec can be pushed before changing connector. |
| 19:12.18 | anrp | but they're all block devices, again |
| 19:12.42 | anrp | er, sorry |
| 19:12.46 | anrp | mmcplus is 416mbit |
| 19:13.48 | SpeedEvil | Lynet: it's a tradeoff - speed, power, complexity. In the extreme case, you could go to ADSL-like signalling, rather than simple binary, and get a factor of lots speedup. |
| 19:13.50 | Lynet | Which makes me wonder if Nokia et al wants to own the new standard, or whether they have identified limits in the SD standard that can't be fixed by a backwards-compatible rev of the spec. |
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| 19:14.40 | anrp | its about the almighty dollar... |
| 19:14.47 | anrp | there isn't a good technical reason |
| 19:15.03 | anrp | there's a good legal/financial reason (if they can get it going in the market) |
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| 21:15.13 | hhf423 | hmm |
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| 21:27.00 | hhf423 | how does one run bootchart? |
| 21:27.18 | anrp | one asks! |
| 21:27.25 | anrp | ...obviously, I have no idea |
| 21:27.42 | hhf423 | ah, someone is awake :-) |
| 21:27.43 | anrp | sorry ~_~ |
| 21:27.55 | hhf423 | pretty dead here on a saturday eveing, eh? |
| 21:28.07 | anrp | it's like people have a life |
| 21:28.09 | anrp | or something |
| 21:28.10 | anrp | shocking |
| 21:29.31 | aevin | we're just faking |
| 21:29.34 | hhf423 | nah, I disagree, now is the time the life goes to bed and sleeps |
| 21:29.59 | aevin | excuse me, i have to go back to my imaginary party |
| 21:30.47 | hhf423 | don't drink too many imaginary drinks! |
| 21:31.35 | hhf423 | hmm, I should see that Tasks has a icon, no? does not get one with me... |
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| 21:32.44 | aevin | hhf423: too late, i am already imaginary drunk! so drunk that i've started imagining things. |
| 21:33.22 | hhf423 | aevin: to understand recursion, we first need to understand recursion |
| 21:33.40 | doc|home | that's not recursion, that's a catch-22 |
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| 21:34.32 | hhf423 | oh, sco still has about 10m usd left? |
| 21:34.54 | hhf423 | this is so sad, sco once was a good company |
| 21:35.45 | rwhitby | morning |
| 21:35.56 | hhf423 | hi rwhitby |
| 21:36.04 | mwester | Greetings |
| 21:36.14 | hhf423 | "Nothing to be done" |
| 21:36.25 | hhf423 | thats a sad thing to hear from ipkg upgrade |
| 21:36.43 | aevin | morning |
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| 21:49.46 | hhf423 | anyone here managed to get gllin running in chroot in 2007.2? |
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| 21:58.27 | hhf423 | Will it blend? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F_ZPhf1Bgw&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fblog%2Ewired%2Ecom%2Fsterling%2F2007%2F09%2Fthe%2Dapple%2Diphon%2Ehtml# |
| 21:58.53 | anrp | i'd ask if the neo would blend but there in such short supply that it would be in bad taste |
| 21:59.10 | hhf423 | anrp: yes, at least for now |
| 21:59.44 | hhf423 | but the neo has less metal than the iphone, so this is basically no question |
| 22:01.04 | anrp | but, lithium! |
| 22:02.28 | hhf423 | huh, iphone also has a LI battery, no? |
| 22:04.15 | anrp | practically everything that has batteries does |
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| 22:04.26 | anrp | well all portable consumer applications |
| 22:04.35 | anrp | stationary industrial is owned by lead acid |
| 22:05.17 | hhf423 | hahaha, blending glowsticks... |
| 22:06.02 | anrp | super bright |
| 22:13.50 | SpeedEvil | heat glowstick to boiling, then break it. |
| 22:13.55 | SpeedEvil | _really_ bright |
| 22:14.22 | anrp | or just microwave it |
| 22:14.43 | anrp | it will get too bright if you microwave it though ~_~ |
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| 22:52.51 | cw666 | roh: about? |
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| 23:06.39 | anrp | about this long, I'd say |
| 23:08.21 | Elrond | Just heard from someone, that the iphone has an "operating temperature from 0-35 \degree\celcius. Does anyone know the relavant data for the neo? |
| 23:13.33 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - _That_ wasn't the intention of my question. :) |
| 23:16.31 | SpeedEvil | I would expect it to more or less work over the same sort of range. |
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| 23:17.14 | Elrond | Yeah, me too. |
| 23:19.23 | cesarb | Only up to 35°C? Isn't that a bit too low? |
| 23:19.38 | cesarb | Ambient temperatures sometimes get up to 40°C around here... |
| 23:20.32 | anrp | 35 is very low |
| 23:20.40 | anrp | even cheap commercial stuff is usually 0-60 |
| 23:20.57 | anrp | high end stuff is -40-125 D: |
| 23:21.19 | SpeedEvil | Consider that 35C is the case temp |
| 23:21.44 | rwhitby | apple would be conservative in the published specs |
| 23:21.55 | SpeedEvil | But on reflection, I think I've had my neo up to 50C or so. |
| 23:22.11 | SpeedEvil | (it was in the black case, on doing gps+strace, in full sun) |
| 23:22.24 | SpeedEvil | Maybe 60C |
| 23:22.48 | anrp | surely it has a temperature sensor? |
| 23:22.59 | Elrond | the battery has a temp sensor. |
| 23:23.11 | thomasg | well, the battery is the only component that needs one |
| 23:23.20 | thomasg | I think the samsung SoC should run fine at 100°C |
| 23:23.28 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: yeah, the case temp will be at least the ambient temperature... |
| 23:23.37 | anrp | thats easy to test, just stick it in a pot of boiling water! |
| 23:23.38 | anrp | ... er |
| 23:23.39 | Elrond | Oh, we have the data sheet for the CPU. ;o) |
| 23:23.53 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: there's no way the case temp will be lower than the ambient temp for more than a few minutes |
| 23:24.06 | SpeedEvil | Well, yes. |
| 23:24.11 | thomasg | Elrond: where is it? :) |
| 23:24.16 | thomasg | <- lazy |
| 23:24.23 | Elrond | thomasg - Linked from the wiki. |
| 23:24.24 | cesarb | Elrond: the '02 CPU? |
| 23:24.35 | anrp | you won't find it on samsung's website |
| 23:24.44 | Elrond | cesarb - Ahh, no. Only the 01 cpu. |
| 23:25.00 | cesarb | Elrond: the '01 CPU has been on the wiki since forever |
| 23:25.13 | thomasg | k, for the other lazy guys: http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/productRightMenuDown.do?doc_file=26537 |
| 23:25.39 | cesarb | Elrond: for a time (after samsung's site was worsened) the link was broken, but some kind people on this channel tracked its new place down |
| 23:25.58 | Elrond | cesarb - Ahh. :-)) |
| 23:27.20 | thomasg | ok, its -65 to +150 °C |
| 23:27.30 | thomasg | (only for the SoC) |
| 23:28.01 | SpeedEvil | I suspect some of the plastics will melt at 150C |
| 23:28.10 | thomasg | SpeedEvil: yes, I think so, too |
| 23:28.17 | SpeedEvil | And that's presumably not 150C operating. |
| 23:28.37 | thomasg | it is, but "absolute maximum rating" :) |
| 23:28.53 | SpeedEvil | Absolute maximums do not guarantee correct operation. |
| 23:28.58 | thomasg | "recommended operation conditions": -40 to +85 °C |
| 23:29.02 | SpeedEvil | absolute maximum is 'won't die' |
| 23:29.07 | SpeedEvil | it does not mean it will function |
| 23:29.08 | thomasg | yes, that's it |
| 23:29.18 | SpeedEvil | absolute maximum is 'won't die immediately' |
| 23:29.20 | cesarb | thomasg: that's the temp on the chip's outside |
| 23:29.36 | cesarb | thomasg: you also have to factor in the fact that the case is not a very good thermal conductor... |
| 23:29.45 | SpeedEvil | So call it 10C to the board, and 10C to the case, and we're down to 65C |
| 23:29.58 | cesarb | thomasg: and do some fancy calculations with the wattage expended, thermal conductivity, and so on |
| 23:30.37 | cesarb | thomasg: or, much easier, use something like cpuburn while measuring the temps, with the case closed and a controlled exterior temp ;-) |
| 23:31.08 | Elrond | .oO(put it in the dsc. ;o) ) |
| 23:31.09 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: well, as long as it can deal with more than 40°C ambient temp... |
| 23:31.42 | Elrond | I guess, the battery really is the most critical part? |
| 23:31.54 | thomasg | cesarb: we are talking about the very efficient ARM architecture, I think it will not be possible to create temperatures like 80°C with the input power on the cpu |
| 23:33.44 | cesarb | thomasg: true... the battery would probably be the greatest problem (with the charger on, it can get warm... if the CPU is also warming things up, the temps might get even higher) |
| 23:34.23 | cesarb | Elrond: well, with the battery, the problem isn't actually it not working anymore, if you get what I mean... |
| 23:35.56 | thomasg | the battery is definitely the biggest problem here but the biggest problem is not the heat while charging, it's the sun (if you have it in your car e.g.) |
| 23:36.00 | Elrond | cesarb - I think, I get, what you mean... and that really is "The Problem", I guess. |
| 23:36.34 | cesarb | thomasg: I thought most people have already figured out you never leave LCDs on the sun |
| 23:36.41 | Elrond | When it gets too hot while charging, I guess, the internal safety circuits will stop the charging? |
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| 23:37.08 | cesarb | Elrond: I'd expect them to utterly cut off the battery from the external contacts |
| 23:37.09 | thomasg | cesarb: in my car I have a black navigation device with a battery and a lcd :) |
| 23:37.18 | cesarb | Elrond: so it wouldn't charge nor discharge |
| 23:37.42 | thomasg | I guess I had it at about 60°C this summer, but this isn't really a problem for the lcd |
| 23:39.10 | Elrond | cesarb - Right. |
| 23:41.46 | cesarb | Elrond: but, I don't trust these protection devices |
| 23:41.57 | cesarb | Elrond: since they are much like rarely-used code |
| 23:42.11 | cesarb | Elrond: you can't tell if they actually work... and they probably won't |
| 23:42.57 | Elrond | Yeah. |
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