| 00:00.04 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: oh, btw, my parents said that the girl at the shop said the bulging battery was because of overcharging |
| 00:00.20 | SpeedEvil | Well - yes. |
| 00:00.23 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: which makes sense, since I charged every single night for the whole night, and the phone is an year and a half old |
| 00:00.35 | SpeedEvil | It can also be from battery failure |
| 00:00.38 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: I was counting on the phone's PMU to avoid that kind of problem... |
| 00:00.47 | SpeedEvil | It should. |
| 00:01.01 | SpeedEvil | But... |
| 00:01.12 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: which made me think: does the _neo_'s PMU avoid that (by cutting tricke charge when it's over/under a voltage/current threshold, etc)? |
| 00:01.22 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: because, if the PMU doesn't, the kernel must |
| 00:01.40 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: (and uboot too... having two kernels is annoying sometimes) |
| 00:01.43 | SpeedEvil | It limits battery voltage to 4.2 |
| 00:02.03 | SpeedEvil | There is a hardware limit at 7V or something. |
| 00:02.19 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: 7V? isn't that ridiculously high? |
| 00:02.30 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
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| 00:24.56 | cesarb | rwhitby: new patch for mokomakefile: http://pastebin.ca/680544 which adds a few targets to do at least part of what an "autoclean" job would do |
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| 00:25.17 | cesarb | rwhitby: to use, simply run the target manually for the previous day (or the day you want to purge from the records) |
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| 00:26.37 | rwhitby | cesarb: the hope is that all this date stuff will go away in the next few days as SRCREV is deployed. |
| 00:27.38 | cesarb | rwhitby: I hope so, because it's *very* annoying to see webkit-gtk (the slowest of them, perhaps for being c++) rebuild *every* *single* *time* |
| 00:27.51 | rwhitby | amen to that |
| 00:28.11 | quicksand | Hey folks. Anyone around who's good with oe/bitbake? I'm having a problem with my first .bb from scratch: http://pastebin.ca/680545 |
| 00:28.36 | cesarb | rwhitby: even then, the images part of clean-deploy-date-% should still be a little bit useful |
| 00:28.57 | quicksand | For some reason g++ isn't seeing gtk.h, even though it *is* present (in a subdir of the main include dir) -- shouldn't those be searched too? |
| 00:29.16 | cesarb | quicksand: it would be easier if you also posted the .bb... |
| 00:30.13 | quicksand | Certainly. http://pastebin.ca/680548 |
| 00:31.05 | quicksand | (You can disregard the "inherit pkgconfig" there -- I was messing around, and it neither helps nor hurts.) |
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| 00:35.44 | cesarb | quicksand: where is the makefile expecting to find the so-called "gtk/gtk.h"? |
| 00:35.55 | cesarb | quicksand: is it a file from the package itself, or it it from gtk+? |
| 00:36.53 | quicksand | The .cc file that is failing has "#include <gtk/gtk.h>" -- if that's what you're asking. |
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| 00:38.21 | quicksand | And you can see from my first pastebin that the compiler is getting "-isystem/home/clarke/moko/tmp/staging/arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/include" which is correct . . . |
| 00:38.21 | cesarb | quicksand: and it expects to get the gtk/gtk.h from gtk+-2.0? Does it use pkg-config on the makefile to get the correct CFLAGS? |
| 00:38.36 | cesarb | quicksand: because, if it doesn't use pkg-config, there's no way it can know where that include actually is... it could be anywhere |
| 00:39.00 | cesarb | quicksand: it's NOT in the default include path... I checked |
| 00:39.16 | quicksand | . . . and gtk.h is in include/gtk-2.0/gtk/gtk.h |
| 00:39.45 | quicksand | You're right -- it's in a subdir of the default include path, as are many other headers (cairo, pango, etc.) |
| 00:40.35 | cesarb | quicksand: I can only help you so far, I never actually used pkg-config |
| 00:40.46 | quicksand | Heh, me too! Thanks for the effort. |
| 00:40.50 | cesarb | quicksand: unless you count autoconf magic as using pkg-config |
| 00:41.15 | cesarb | quicksand: (btw, autoconf/automake/libtool can really help on cross-compiling gizmos like bitbake) |
| 00:41.23 | awesomo4000 | anyone know |
| 00:41.34 | awesomo4000 | anyone port gcc to the phone yet ? |
| 00:41.35 | awesomo4000 | : ) |
| 00:42.00 | cesarb | quicksand: you have to use pkg-config --cflags something to get the CFLAGS, and pkg-config --libs something to get part of the linker command line, AFAIK |
| 00:42.03 | quicksand | One thing that's interesting and fun (and granted, somewhat frustrating) about developing for oe is that you really can't take any of those magic procedures for granted. It really, really helps if you understand what's going on. |
| 00:42.32 | quicksand | Thanks. I'll dig into that. |
| 00:43.07 | cesarb | quicksand: well, the exception might be autoconf's magic, since it's since the beginning engineered specifically for cross-compilation... |
| 00:43.23 | cesarb | quicksand: which is why most people tend to dislike it, since it's waaay overkill most of the time |
| 00:44.12 | cesarb | quicksand: it being written on a very strange language (a special-purpose language implemented as a set of m4 macros generating a multi-megabyte shell script) doesn't help |
| 00:44.35 | cesarb | quicksand: as doesn't help the fact that it tries to be WAY too portable (what the swearword is a "Kubota Titan"?) |
| 00:46.02 | quicksand | Heh. Well, to the extent the OE metadata is self-documenting, that too might help -- unfortunately there's not much documentation beyond that. |
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| 00:46.48 | cesarb | quicksand: if bitbake/oe's documentation were on Wikipedia, it would probably get a {{stub}} tag |
| 00:47.53 | quicksand | Nope. |
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| 00:59.10 | rtyler | cesarb: nah, that's about spot on :) |
| 00:59.18 | rtyler | rwhitby: ping |
| 00:59.59 | rwhitby | rtyler: gu |
| 01:00.13 | rtyler | escaped from meetings long enough to hack? ;) |
| 01:00.23 | rwhitby | uboot-openmoko fails to build for me. |
| 01:00.39 | rtyler | yikes |
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| 01:13.20 | gcb77 | I started from scratch and it fails at "icu-native_3.6.bb do_compile failed" with "/usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6: undefined reference to `_Unwind_GetIPInfo@GCC_4.2.0'" |
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| 01:16.38 | Richard | OM build failed :http://pastebin.com/m2fc89c2c |
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| 01:20.13 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Voice_Mailbox]] |
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| 01:27.44 | synalx | hey all |
| 01:27.45 | Richard | OM build failed :http://pastebin.com/m2fc89c2c |
| 01:27.45 | synalx | :) |
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| 01:28.07 | synalx | um |
| 01:28.11 | synalx | you don't have matchbox-panel? |
| 01:28.29 | awesomo4000 | yeah i just sshed to the moko for the first time |
| 01:28.36 | Richard | I don't know, I 'm using openmokomakefile |
| 01:28.42 | synalx | Richard: you still need the dependencies |
| 01:28.51 | synalx | Richard: what distro |
| 01:28.53 | synalx | awesomo4000: :D |
| 01:28.58 | sagacis | morning |
| 01:29.43 | Richard | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:29.47 | synalx | gentoo? |
| 01:29.56 | Richard | ubuntu? |
| 01:30.02 | Richard | ubntu. |
| 01:30.05 | synalx | ah |
| 01:30.29 | synalx | well, i have no authority since i've never built openmoko before |
| 01:30.33 | synalx | but try: apt-get install matchbox-panel |
| 01:30.36 | sagacis | Anybody play with the openmoko-mediaplayer2 before? |
| 01:31.06 | Richard | I have to have matchbox-panel on host? |
| 01:32.46 | synalx | Richard: it seems that way, i guess |
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| 01:33.17 | synalx | keep in mind i'ver never done this though |
| 01:33.18 | synalx | XD |
| 01:33.26 | synalx | *i've |
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| 02:06.00 | riot | I cannot mokomakefile update, because of a locked working svn-copy in openmoko/patches.. svn cleanup doesn't help. |
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| 02:06.22 | riot | I suppose it has something do with with a previous interrupted make update |
| 02:09.51 | cesarb | riot: try make clobber-patches to remove that directory; make update should recreate it (quite fast) |
| 02:10.09 | cesarb | riot: don't do it if you have local changes on that directory, however... |
| 02:11.07 | riot | hmm. tried that. No success, though :/.. could you have a look? http://pastebin.com/m3f94d36b |
| 02:11.39 | riot | isn't necessary OM itself :( |
| 02:12.22 | cesarb | riot: ah, that one is "clobber-openmoko" |
| 02:12.29 | cesarb | riot: takes a while to download again on update |
| 02:12.46 | cesarb | riot: because of the insanely huge .wav files on the artwork directories |
| 02:13.03 | riot | oh, yes.. i saw those :( |
| 02:14.02 | riot | i try some cleanups |
| 02:14.40 | cesarb | riot: a cleanup on the openmoko directory should be enough... |
| 02:16.39 | riot | svn: 'trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/data/Makefile.am' is not under version control << Huh?! |
| 02:16.50 | riot | i didn't create that one..? |
| 02:17.03 | cesarb | riot: svn probably was creating that when it was interrupted |
| 02:17.11 | cesarb | riot: just remove it and let svn download it again |
| 02:17.21 | riot | oh, yes, possible.. thanks! |
| 02:17.54 | riot | whoa, just deleted it, yet svn cleanup claims it were still not under version control.. confusing |
| 02:18.43 | cesarb | riot: what does svn status say about that file? |
| 02:19.39 | riot | its gone now. |
| 02:19.46 | riot | still, it claims locked |
| 02:20.47 | cesarb | riot: how strange... svn cleanup usually is enough |
| 02:21.07 | riot | svn: 'Makefile.am' is not under version control |
| 02:21.15 | riot | though i even deleted it.. |
| 02:22.06 | cesarb | riot: the svn control files are probably confused... it might be faster to just redownload the tree ;-) |
| 02:22.22 | riot | i just try removing that particular directory completely |
| 02:22.35 | cesarb | riot: that will just confuse its parent directory |
| 02:22.46 | cesarb | riot: since it will get out of sync |
| 02:23.05 | riot | yep, and leads to the same error.. seems to be locked recursively.. *sigh* |
| 02:26.47 | riot | why are there whole wave-files inside the trunk? |
| 02:28.46 | cesarb | riot: beats me |
| 02:29.16 | cesarb | riot: probably some designer's idea of proprer use of version control |
| 02:30.00 | riot | incredible.. that guy must secretly work for hitachi or sandisk.. |
| 02:30.05 | cesarb | riot: of course, someone had the cool idea of using svn copy on it |
| 02:30.08 | cesarb | riot: at least twice |
| 02:30.54 | riot | duh. At work, we shoot folks pulling such tricks. Esp. since our cvs is already totally bloated. |
| 02:31.21 | cesarb | riot: you guys still use cvs? |
| 02:31.26 | riot | oh, and i don't get the point, why is svn being used, when theres a monotone around it? |
| 02:31.41 | cesarb | riot: svn's cvs-to-svn script works well... |
| 02:31.46 | cesarb | riot: ugh, don't mention the m word |
| 02:31.48 | riot | cesarb: yep, even gets worse: i implemented a component enabling our main product to utilize a cvs-client. |
| 02:31.59 | cesarb | riot: monotone is the single slowest SCM I've ever seen |
| 02:32.41 | riot | cesarb: hmm. i don't yet fully understand montone, but some parts seem like a totally cool idea to me. |
| 02:33.26 | cesarb | $ cat battemp |
| 02:33.26 | cesarb | 3 |
| 02:33.33 | cesarb | Is "3" normal for battemp? |
| 02:33.58 | cesarb | riot: it is a cool idea. It's no wonder linus copied some of its best ideas for git |
| 02:34.01 | riot | uh, mine has 33 celsius on the left side and 29 on the right. Must be the gpu, which is at 46 |
| 02:34.13 | riot | (oh you mean the phone?? Wheres that battemp??) |
| 02:34.18 | cesarb | riot: which, unlike monotone, is the single fastest SCM I've ever seen |
| 02:34.37 | cesarb | riot: on the pcf50606 |
| 02:34.43 | cesarb | riot: which you can find at /sys/devices/platform/s3c2410-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0008 |
| 02:34.46 | riot | ah |
| 02:34.52 | riot | wtf... error in svn-checkout |
| 02:35.12 | riot | http://pastebin.com/m3ed69c4e :(( |
| 02:35.15 | riot | same directory |
| 02:35.22 | riot | after a clobber-openmoko.. |
| 02:36.03 | cesarb | riot: well, now that's a wtf... |
| 02:36.34 | cesarb | riot: are you on an overly deep directory hierarchy? it's the only cause (other than random fs/kernel/hardware issues) I can think of |
| 02:36.45 | riot | oh, its not that shallow, nope |
| 02:36.50 | riot | shall i try a symlink? |
| 02:37.04 | riot | root is 4 levels upwards |
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| 02:37.13 | cesarb | riot: 4 levels aren't that much |
| 02:37.17 | mwester | Symlinks don't work in a oe structure. |
| 02:37.19 | riot | ack |
| 02:38.01 | riot | mwester: uh, yes i already saw that.. plus vfat is not a good place to store oe, neither.. |
| 02:38.19 | mwester | vfat - yeah, not good... :) |
| 02:38.30 | cesarb | riot: I don't expect things to work well on vfat |
| 02:38.37 | riot | the file is there |
| 02:38.38 | cesarb | riot: you will get strange build failures |
| 02:38.56 | cesarb | riot: since parts of the build will be expecting posix semantics |
| 02:39.01 | riot | cesarb: yes, had some of them.. first one was "could not exec" though, so i thought, vfat might be bad. |
| 02:39.19 | riot | still that file svn tried to copy is perfectly existent.. |
| 02:39.28 | riot | oi.. wtf!!! |
| 02:39.32 | riot | lrwxr-xr-x 1 riot riot 1 Sep 4 04:34 icons.tmp.tmp -> . |
| 02:40.10 | riot | something here is seriously b0rked |
| 02:41.18 | cesarb | (but perhaps cpu_relax() is a nop on arm...) |
| 02:41.45 | riot | :( no go. svn seems to be broken either remote or local.. |
| 02:42.17 | cesarb | yeah, cpu_relax() is just barrier() on arm |
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| 03:04.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 795 has been created by cesarb(AT)cesarb.net |
| 03:04.02 | cdbot2 | * * battemp values obviously bogus |
| 03:04.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=795 |
| 03:08.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 796 has been created by cesarb(AT)cesarb.net |
| 03:08.02 | cdbot2 | * * Use obviously bogus value for off-scale high battemp value |
| 03:08.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=796 |
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| 03:38.45 | notserpe | pretty quiet |
| 03:39.59 | linux_galore | I noticed fewer people on the train today too, I thin some are making a week of it |
| 03:40.05 | linux_galore | think* |
| 03:40.16 | notserpe | train? |
| 03:40.35 | linux_galore | thing with wheels that runs along metal tracks] |
| 03:41.17 | notserpe | where you at that you need a train? |
| 03:41.39 | linux_galore | right up north |
| 03:42.08 | linux_galore | anyway stuff to do |
| 03:44.32 | arw_ | bye |
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| 04:35.18 | blindcoder | moin |
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| 04:59.24 | aloril | LCD with Embedded Optical Sensors (Touch Screen and Scanner): http://www.japancorp.net/Article.Asp?Art_ID=15247 |
| 05:01.02 | CM | aloril: Cool thing :) |
| 05:01.50 | aloril | could detect even finger rotating, also unlocking screen would be simple: just press finger ;-) (+ for additional security certain swipe) |
| 05:02.41 | aloril | go application idea: use this screen as go board, detect who is pressing and only put stone if right person (whose turn it is) is touching |
| 05:03.02 | CM | Hehe |
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| 05:45.06 | notserpe_ | wow this channel has really calmed since last end of july |
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| 05:56.35 | mickeyl | morning guys |
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| 05:57.45 | CM | mickeyl: Morning :) |
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| 06:05.20 | fgau | mickeyl: moin moin |
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| 06:16.06 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2900 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-gps/src/openmoko-panel-gps.c: openmoko-panel-gps: not a container |
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| 06:47.09 | Obri | is buildhost.openmoko.org down? |
| 06:50.43 | mickeyl | yes |
| 06:50.50 | mickeyl | there's some problems |
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| 07:25.23 | notserpe | i can't seem to connect, nor to openmoko.com |
| 07:27.52 | daMaestro | notserpe, i'll confirm that |
| 07:28.36 | daMaestro | .org is working |
| 07:29.14 | daMaestro | wow, FIC owns a pretty thick block of IP addresses |
| 07:29.33 | LaF0rge | no :( |
| 07:29.46 | borg_ | how thick is it? |
| 07:30.29 | daMaestro | well, i see 88.198.58 88.198.62 and 88.198.84 |
| 07:30.54 | daMaestro | i suppose they could be all leased servers |
| 07:31.12 | borg_ | ah ok |
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| 07:31.23 | borg_ | my university owns a class b net |
| 07:31.28 | borg_ | and doesnt use it at all ;) |
| 07:31.48 | daMaestro | ahh i'm wrong |
| 07:31.52 | daMaestro | they are leased addresses |
| 07:31.58 | daMaestro | 88.198.0.0/16AS24940 owns them |
| 07:32.33 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Kernel]] |
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| 07:37.58 | daxxar | Is there an open bug on touchscreen jitter? |
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| 08:14.43 | Obri | the buildhost is up again... |
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| 08:18.12 | aloril | (script) planet: Michael "mickeyl" Lauer: OpenMoko and OpenEZX at Mobile Developer Days 2007 http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/09/04/openmoko-and-openezx-at-mobile-developer-days-2007/ |
| 08:22.35 | rwhitby | mickeyl: so is the idea that today is the day where every date-based svn in openmoko changes to SRCREV ? |
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| 08:46.37 | CM | I wonder what this will turn into: http://gigaom.com/2007/09/03/google-phone-facts/ |
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| 08:54.50 | Placid | morning |
| 08:56.21 | florian | good morning |
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| 08:56.45 | mdt | hi :) |
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| 09:28.57 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2901 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/daemons/neod/src/buttonactions.c: neod: add aux menu entry for toggling fullscreen mode |
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| 09:33.31 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Commercial_models]] [[OpenMoko_supported_hardware]] [[User:Mickey]] |
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| 09:41.11 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" <mickey at openmoko.org> Re: gpsd and AGPS |
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| 10:36.11 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: problem with vanilla-kernel-patchset |
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| 10:41.31 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: SMedia 3362 |
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| 10:46.11 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: SMedia 3362 and 1 other mails |
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| 10:54.12 | riot | i still can't checkout using the mokomakefile. It tries to suck rev. 611, but fails on "A openmoko/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/data/icons" |
| 10:55.25 | riot | http://pastebin.com/m3ed69c4e :( |
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| 10:55.44 | XorA | riot: did I see something about you using samba? |
| 10:55.50 | riot | XorA: yes. |
| 10:55.57 | XorA | riot: that will NEVER work |
| 10:56.27 | riot | XorA: why? |
| 10:56.50 | XorA | riot: the list of allowed characters is different for linux and samba, also samba isnt case sensitive |
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| 10:57.05 | XorA | riot: so you get files overwritten and files renamed to remove illegal chars |
| 10:57.38 | riot | hmmm..ok.. i'm setting up nfs then. |
| 10:57.49 | XorA | much better choice :-) |
| 10:58.05 | XorA | riot: sorry I should have thought about that when you first posted |
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| 10:59.57 | riot | XorA: ;) |
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| 11:32.52 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:ChrisLord]] |
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| 11:36.27 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2902 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/smedia-glamo.patch: 16BPP is also TRUECOLOR in fbdev terminology. |
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| 11:41.51 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" <mickey at openmoko.org> Re: SMedia 3362 |
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| 11:51.33 | Psi | heh, just thought of a app for the neo |
| 11:52.25 | SpeedEvil | Dog-invisible-fence? Tied onto the collar? |
| 11:52.29 | Psi | For when you are near a landline, (so you dont have to remember the number or dial it), you pickup the landphone then put the cellphone near it and select the person in your cellphone contact list you want to call then press a 'DTMF' button, and it plays the tones thus dialing the landline :) |
| 11:52.50 | zash_se | does that work? |
| 11:53.04 | Psi | you can play DTMF tones and a landline will dial them |
| 11:53.07 | Psi | atleast here you can |
| 11:53.15 | XorA | Psi: works in UK |
| 11:53.16 | Psi | not sure about othere places in the world |
| 11:54.44 | zash_se | coolness |
| 11:54.44 | cjb_ie | the only issue is the DTMF being loud enough |
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| 11:54.51 | Psi | you can test it easy enough, just load cooledit on your PC and play some tones with the phone off the hook |
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| 11:55.53 | cesarb | cjb_ie: well, aren't neo's speakers very loud? |
| 11:55.59 | Psi | ^ |
| 11:56.10 | Psi | they would definitely be loud enough |
| 11:56.19 | cjb_ie | dunno, haven't seen one in the flesh. but generally speaking, this is an app i'd like |
| 11:56.39 | cjb_ie | however... the mobile device would have to be made aware of how to dial from the phone in question |
| 11:56.46 | edistar_ | I'm trying to build with the mokomakefile but I get the following error: http://nopaste.com/p/ap6cuDlGw |
| 11:56.48 | cjb_ie | what's the intl access code, local access code, etc. |
| 11:56.50 | edistar_ | can someone help me? |
| 11:57.12 | Psi | anyone could do it right now with the neo |
| 11:57.36 | Psi | just make a wav of the dtmf tones for ya mates phone number and play it on ya neo with madplay |
| 11:57.49 | mdt | edistar_, what do u try? start with qemu? |
| 11:58.09 | edistar_ | mdt: sry, works now, I tried to start is a root, silly thing to do |
| 11:58.17 | cjb_ie | i used to do DTMF dialling from a bbc micro back in the 90s :-) |
| 11:58.17 | XorA | Psi: Im sure there is a gtk+ DTMF dialer listed on freshmeat somewhere |
| 11:58.39 | cjb_ie | i wanted to do it on my psion organiser too, but its sound hardware could only generate one tone at once |
| 11:58.44 | Psi | you could try a mp3 but id bet the compression would screw it |
| 11:59.01 | cjb_ie | naw, DTMF is fine for mp3 |
| 11:59.07 | Psi | ok :) |
| 11:59.08 | cjb_ie | it's only two tones at once. |
| 11:59.14 | cesarb | cjb_ie: don't you already have to know how to dial from the place you are with the neo itself? |
| 11:59.39 | cesarb | cjb_ie: for instance, if I'm not on my "native" area code, I have to dial 02121 before the number |
| 11:59.48 | XorA | cesarb: no, all GSM mobiles accept numbers as +countrycode - phonenumber |
| 11:59.49 | cjb_ie | cesarb: not necessarily. you don't know what area code the landline phone is in, you don't necessarily know which carrier provides it... |
| 11:59.54 | XorA | cesarb: landlines tend not to |
| 12:00.05 | cesarb | cjb_ie: (in fact 0xx21... the xx can vary) |
| 12:00.38 | cesarb | XorA: but how would you chose the carrier with +-prefixed numbers? (the xx is the carrier selection code) |
| 12:00.40 | Psi | simple, you use the GPS to work out what area code to add :P |
| 12:00.50 | XorA | cesarb: in UK +441506 becomes 01506, phone needs to know this |
| 12:00.55 | cjb_ie | in most euro countries, you use 00 where GSM uses + ... in the US, you use 011, etc |
| 12:00.59 | cesarb | cjb_ie: the area code is where you are. If you are in Rio, you know the area code is 21 |
| 12:01.17 | mdt | can someone tell a little bit about the s-media chip? how far is the x11 driver? |
| 12:01.55 | Psi | mdt, last i heard it was VERY basic |
| 12:02.28 | cjb_ie | cesarb: same here in cork :-) but ireland it's always just 0 to 'get out' of the current area, and 00 to get out of .ie - _except_ when dialling northern ireland, in which case you're supposed to use a shortcut of 048 instead of 00-44-28 |
| 12:02.36 | mdt | Psi, oh 2d acceleration would be find ;) |
| 12:02.41 | cesarb | XorA: well, tried the +-prefixing trick, didn't work |
| 12:02.43 | mdt | s/find/fine/ |
| 12:02.44 | cjb_ie | (and 00-44-28 may get charged as a cross-channel call, whereas 048 won't) |
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| 12:03.12 | XorA | cjb_ie: last I tried 004428 in uk it didnt work |
| 12:03.20 | cesarb | XorA: +5521nnnnnnnn doesn't work at all (giving a recorded error message), while just nnnnnnnn works |
| 12:03.23 | cjb_ie | XorA: i'm talking about from .ie |
| 12:03.38 | cjb_ie | from the UK it's just 028 |
| 12:04.01 | cjb_ie | cesarb: that sounds like a broken GSM implementation |
| 12:04.01 | edistar_ | mdt: it doesn't want to set up the UI it just keeps changing the LCD backlight |
| 12:04.03 | Psi | mdt, from someone on the community list "There is as I understand it at the moment only a dumb driver for it, using it as a framebuffer." |
| 12:04.16 | cesarb | XorA: so, it's not true that all carriers accept +-prefixing (it's not the phone which does that, it's the carrier) |
| 12:04.36 | DPThought | btw. the DTMF feature sounds gread. Do it! (just my 2 eurocents) |
| 12:05.01 | cesarb | cjb_ie: doesn't sound like it to me. As I said before, how the carrier guess which interstate carrier you want (Embratel or some other one)? It can't... So the only thing it can do is to error out |
| 12:05.03 | cjb_ie | so essentially - DTMF in principle is fine, but it'll need a lot of smarts to work out what digits to dial |
| 12:05.31 | cjb_ie | cesarb: it's up to you to agree that with your carrier beforehand |
| 12:05.39 | cesarb | cjb_ie: yes, but you are going to need the same smarts for the phone itself anyway |
| 12:05.50 | cjb_ie | cesarb: not in sensible countries |
| 12:06.15 | cesarb | cjb_ie: there's no way to agree that with my carrier beforehand. The only way to tell the carrier which interstate carrier to use is to add its code to the number being dialed |
| 12:06.28 | cesarb | cjb_ie: as in 0ccaannnnnnnn, where cc is the carrier code |
| 12:06.29 | cjb_ie | cesarb: then that's broken. |
| 12:07.08 | cesarb | cjb_ie: broken or not, the phone needs smarts to deal with it |
| 12:07.09 | mdt | Psi, ah, so they just do the kernel stuff, the x-driver is still a dump fb driver... hm |
| 12:07.11 | edistar | my openmoko-qemu hangs.. says that it's setting up UI but the console just tells me it's changing LCD backlight all the time |
| 12:07.18 | cjb_ie | cesarb: so if i go there, i have to start changing all my phone book entries? |
| 12:07.26 | DPThought | are you talking about dial pefixes or frequency stuff? |
| 12:07.37 | cesarb | DPThought: dial prefixes |
| 12:08.07 | cesarb | cjb_ie: I don't recall if that applies to international dialing, but if it does, yes you would have to ;-) |
| 12:08.09 | cjb_ie | cesarb: the ones that work in ireland, uk, netherlands, france, germany, sweden, denmark, budapest and bulgaria without problems... but in south america i suddenly have to start putting in extra digits? |
| 12:08.12 | XorA | cesarb: I think you mixing up GSM and landlines and confusing yourself |
| 12:08.26 | XorA | cesarb: most landlines in world use some form of DTMF, which doesnt have a + sign |
| 12:08.29 | cjb_ie | s/budapest/hungary/ |
| 12:08.37 | cesarb | cjb_ie: I don't think the rest of South America has this carrier selection implementation, I think it's Brazil only |
| 12:08.39 | XorA | cesarb: GSM doesnt and does have capability of a + sign |
| 12:08.44 | cesarb | XorA: no, I'm not mixing |
| 12:08.53 | cjb_ie | cesarb: in that case, brazil has a very, very broken GSM implementation. |
| 12:09.07 | cesarb | XorA: cell phones used to lack the carrier selection code; as it was confusing, it was changed, so you dial the same way everywhere |
| 12:09.27 | cesarb | XorA: BTW, I rewrote the wikipedia article on Brazil's numbering plan, so I know what I'm speaking about ;-) |
| 12:09.46 | cesarb | cjb_ie: it's not GSM... it's the number plan itself which is that way |
| 12:09.51 | XorA | cesarb: we are not talking carrier selection but country selection |
| 12:10.11 | cjb_ie | cesarb: okay, the number plan conflicts with the GSM spec then. |
| 12:10.25 | cjb_ie | if +5521nnnnn doesn't work, that's broken. |
| 12:10.53 | DPThought | prefixes are no issue at all. Store your number fully canonized ant tell your phone what the prefixes are is if you change the country |
| 12:10.53 | cesarb | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_numbers_in_Brazil has the details |
| 12:11.13 | cesarb | (that's the article I rewrote... there's only one section at the end leftover from the previous version of the article) |
| 12:11.18 | cjb_ie | DPThought: except that in brazil you have to parse the number and only send part of it after their weird prefixes... |
| 12:11.34 | cesarb | DPThought: well, the issue is that fully canonicalized numbers don't work (give me a recorded error message) |
| 12:12.01 | cesarb | DPThought: I just tried with my cell phone and my landline |
| 12:12.15 | cjb_ie | cesarb: how do you dial a + on the landline? |
| 12:12.33 | cesarb | cjb_ie: I meant, I tried by dialing to my landline with my razr |
| 12:12.49 | cjb_ie | cesarb: okay |
| 12:12.50 | cesarb | cjb_ie: since I don't have another SIM nearby |
| 12:13.11 | XorA | cesarb: your ariticle is the same as most other countries phone systems |
| 12:13.24 | XorA | cesarb: I assume there is a local bug in your cellular provider |
| 12:13.28 | cesarb | XorA: except for the carrier selection code part |
| 12:13.33 | DPThought | if i safe my number as +49 0761 123456 (German number in freiburg) my phone could dial this number everywhere. I just have to know if i have to use the inernational prefix or not and how to use it |
| 12:13.34 | cesarb | XorA: which you have to use |
| 12:13.44 | DPThought | pardon +49 761 123456 |
| 12:14.23 | *** join/#openmoko gamin (n=m@car06-3-82-240-156-91.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 12:14.35 | DPThought | what prefixes to use depends on the country you in. Thats by the way absolutely the same on your gsm side. So this issue needs to be solved anyway |
| 12:14.37 | cjb_ie | DPThought: right, on GSM the phone just sends the full number to the network, and the network figures out where it needs to route it. |
| 12:14.45 | cesarb | XorA: I don't think it's a bug, it would be more that they cannot chose one carrier selection code for me, I have to put it in the number I am dialing |
| 12:14.55 | *** join/#openmoko fcarvalho (n=fcarvalh@200.184.118.132) |
| 12:14.58 | cesarb | XorA: so the only way they can do it is to error out |
| 12:15.41 | XorA | cesarb: or teach the neo software some smarts like we were saying |
| 12:15.47 | cjb_ie | though i recently bought a sim in the UK and discovered i can't dial +nnn with it... i have to start with a 2, then 00 to escape the uk, then country code and rest of number. |
| 12:15.50 | DPThought | cjb_ie: i don't think i could dial 004976112345 on a american network |
| 12:15.55 | *** join/#openmoko _buz (n=buz@84-73-66-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 12:15.57 | cesarb | XorA: exactly. One more reason to have a neo if you travel too much ;-) |
| 12:16.08 | cjb_ie | DPThought: but you _can_ dial +49 |
| 12:16.25 | XorA | cesarb: sorry I think I misunderstood you I thought you were trying to shoot idea down :-) |
| 12:16.46 | cjb_ie | however, on landlines, especially in the US, it gets terribly messy. most, but not all, operators use 011 as the international dialling prefix |
| 12:16.57 | cesarb | XorA: I was just saying the extra smarts are needed even for cell calls, not only for DTMF trickery, so it comes for free |
| 12:17.32 | gamin | is there any progress about making reliably calls with the neo? |
| 12:17.35 | cesarb | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Carrier_Selection_Code is another article explaining the issue... (this one is not mine) |
| 12:17.37 | _buz | support +country code in gsm was a stroke of genius |
| 12:17.42 | DPThought | cjb_ie: sure? Ok this would make things easy on this side. But if you have your number stored this way you could easyly make a rule how to dial on a landline as soon as you know the prefixes (maybe nt in brazil) |
| 12:17.45 | cjb_ie | and on US landlines (and in ireland and i think increasingly in other EU countries) you can (optionally) prefix a carrier preselect code before the number you're dialling. |
| 12:18.09 | cjb_ie | DPThought: but you also have to know how long the area codes are, for local calls. |
| 12:18.13 | cesarb | cjb_ie: here in Brazil it's not optional, and I think that's the issue ;-) |
| 12:18.35 | cjb_ie | DPThought: ...so you can parse them out. |
| 12:18.38 | *** join/#openmoko madewokherd (n=urk@cpe-71-67-167-185.neo.res.rr.com) |
| 12:18.47 | XorA | cjb_ie: yes, you can carrier select in the UK |
| 12:18.48 | cesarb | cjb_ie: ah, this one is easy in Brazil: area codes are two digits. Always. |
| 12:18.59 | cesarb | well, gtg |
| 12:19.34 | cjb_ie | for example, if i'm in cork city, and i want to dial a cork number, i have to dial just the 7 digit number without the 021 in front - or i (may) get charged for a longer distance call. |
| 12:19.40 | DPThought | cjb_ie: you can parse out the country prefix (two digits). I think thats enough. If i dial with area code here in germany it's superflous but you get what you want |
| 12:19.53 | DPThought | cjb_ie: i guess this is the same everywhere |
| 12:19.57 | cjb_ie | DPThought: country prefix can be more than two digits. |
| 12:20.08 | cjb_ie | ireland, for example, is 353, finland is 358 |
| 12:20.19 | DPThought | cjb_ie: damn. sorry |
| 12:20.40 | gamin | in france area code is mandatory, even for local calls, land line numbers are 10 digits |
| 12:20.47 | cjb_ie | east germany's old code, 37, got re-used and is now ten countries, 370 to 379 |
| 12:21.24 | gamin | oh, so monaco has now the former east german code ;) |
| 12:21.42 | cjb_ie | gamin: just a tenth of it |
| 12:21.43 | gamin | quite a change :-p |
| 12:21.56 | gamin | 377, I know |
| 12:22.07 | cjb_ie | gamin: yeah, it used to be +33-628-nnnnn didn't it |
| 12:22.17 | DPThought | But is this not a issue solved some centuries ago? I mean this is basic address management stuff. |
| 12:22.34 | *** join/#openmoko florian (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69) |
| 12:22.39 | cjb_ie | (guess who tried to work out the details of making a portable DTMP app about ten years ago, and decided it was far too horrible) |
| 12:22.44 | cjb_ie | *DTMF |
| 12:22.52 | gamin | cjb_ie: don't know - they all start with 97. now |
| 12:23.50 | *** part/#openmoko Dunedan (n=dunedan@phoenitydawn.de) |
| 12:23.51 | gamin | anyway, somebody here using his neo as his daily phone? |
| 12:23.54 | cjb_ie | then you have weird exceptions to rules - like puerto rico, i think, considers +1809 to be its country code - as distinct from +1 with area code 809 |
| 12:24.38 | XorA | gamin: no, because I would have to haul around an extra battery pack and a serial console |
| 12:24.40 | *** join/#openmoko Dunedan (n=dunedan@phoenitydawn.de) |
| 12:24.54 | gamin | XorA: lol |
| 12:25.14 | gamin | I thought the biggest problem is the gsmd... |
| 12:25.24 | XorA | and the lack of suspend |
| 12:25.52 | cjb_ie | DPThought: you would hope - but every country solved it in its own way. i thought it was solved for GSM, for everywhere, but cesarb's account of brazil, and my recent experience buying a sim in the uk, show that phone companies (or even regulatory orgs) are more than happy to wilfully break GSM specs. |
| 12:26.19 | XorA | cjb_ie: which UK network BTW? |
| 12:26.36 | XorA | cjb_ie: as Ive never had that trouble with Orange, Vodaphone, T-Mobile and O2 |
| 12:26.43 | cjb_ie | XorA: i can't remember - it was one of the weird "not a real network" resellers. |
| 12:26.55 | gamin | I do not not understand that now that 2000+ phones are out, they spent two weeks on getting the gsmd and the power management done |
| 12:27.07 | XorA | cjb_ie: ah the Virtual Carriers, yeah they can be odd |
| 12:27.39 | cjb_ie | XorA: blue and white on the sim pack, if that helps. my ex has the sim pack, i can ping her for the details. |
| 12:27.43 | DPThought | cjb_ie: i mean a way to store numbers in a way where you could always say which part of the number has which function. I expected the +XXYYYYZZZ form to be that. But it seems i was wrong. Maybe +49 (761) 123456? |
| 12:27.45 | gamin | I remember the first press articles talking about the first batch of 5000 phones in December 06... |
| 12:27.49 | *** join/#openmoko edistar_ (n=edwinloc@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 12:28.29 | cjb_ie | DPThought: it gets worse, because you've got to handle the 'escape' digit too (the 0 on 0761 in your case) |
| 12:28.47 | cjb_ie | finland used to use 9 for that, but has changed to 0. i think spain still uses 9. |
| 12:28.50 | XorA | cjb_ie: nah, not worth it |
| 12:28.54 | Psi | just added DTMF dialing to the wishlist |
| 12:29.10 | SpeedEvil | You mean fake noises? |
| 12:29.11 | XorA | cjb_ie: probably some scheme to stop morons running up huge international bills |
| 12:29.11 | zash_se | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Call_Prefix ? |
| 12:29.12 | cjb_ie | Psi: hehe, it's a big hairy can of worms :-) |
| 12:29.18 | gamin | I think Sean, Harald and Mickey should be supposed to use no other cell phone but the neo >:-) |
| 12:29.34 | XorA | cjb_ie: like in UK if you ask for bargain basement contract then they dont allow roaming unless you specifically ask |
| 12:29.38 | DPThought | cjb_ie: But this would be just the prefix which you configured for your region |
| 12:29.43 | gamin | plus the CEO of FIC :) |
| 12:29.56 | cjb_ie | DPThought: ...and maybe phone operator (see US) |
| 12:29.58 | SpeedEvil | XorA: they typicall do - but at extortionate rates. |
| 12:30.02 | Psi | cjb_ie, heh |
| 12:30.13 | SpeedEvil | At least for those I looked at |
| 12:30.22 | XorA | SpeedEvil: no, they tend to disable it for your number, so you have to phone, ask, then you cant deny knowing the rates |
| 12:30.32 | XorA | SpeedEvil: but this is for the dirt dirt cheap contracts |
| 12:30.35 | DPThought | cjb_ie: you would not use 0 as the long distance prefix in the us ;) |
| 12:30.54 | cjb_ie | DPThought: 1 would work, on most landlines |
| 12:31.05 | cjb_ie | but not all. |
| 12:31.36 | cjb_ie | about the only good thing about the US phone system is that you can always tell which bit is the area code. |
| 12:31.50 | cjb_ie | sorry, US and Canadian. |
| 12:32.14 | XorA | the only thing good with the UK one is ADSL :-) |
| 12:32.16 | cjb_ie | you can't even tell whether a number is US or canadian without a lookup table for the area codes. |
| 12:32.31 | SpeedEvil | The annoying thing about the UK phone network is BT. |
| 12:32.40 | SpeedEvil | And their impact on broadband pricing. |
| 12:32.56 | mmazur | btplusplus.com? :) |
| 12:33.09 | DPThought | cjb_ie: well that would men you have to change this settings more often if you travel through the us than as you would in central europe. should be no problem. :) |
| 12:33.13 | SpeedEvil | (they provide the underlying network for the majority of ADSL - as it's extremely expensive to use other providers - which cost 80p/gigabyte) |
| 12:33.31 | SpeedEvil | Hence UK ISPs cap. |
| 12:34.00 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-33.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 12:34.16 | cjb_ie | DPThought: but it still means the user has to have local knowledge, which takes a lot of the point out of having a DTMF dialler. |
| 12:34.45 | cjb_ie | making the dialler GPS-aware would help, but wouldn't solve everything. |
| 12:35.19 | SpeedEvil | It's possible in border regions to accidentally roam onto the wrong country |
| 12:35.25 | cjb_ie | you'd still need to keep an up-to-date db of how to dial out of every locality and what its area code is. |
| 12:35.56 | *** join/#openmoko raster (n=raster@p2220-ipbf2608marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) |
| 12:35.56 | DPThought | cjb_ie: hey, the gps idea sounds great. |
| 12:35.59 | cjb_ie | and then there's the issue (in some countries) that when people move house, their number may move with them, even out of area. |
| 12:36.27 | cjb_ie | it generally only happens for short distances, but it still 'fuzzifies' the edges of area code areas. |
| 12:36.30 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. Though many have national mobile numbers that don't change. |
| 12:36.40 | SpeedEvil | many countries |
| 12:36.56 | cjb_ie | the more you look at the can, the more worms come out |
| 12:36.58 | raster | yup |
| 12:36.59 | cjb_ie | and the uglier they get |
| 12:37.13 | raster | and on some countries number portability is a requirement by law |
| 12:37.20 | mjr | Finland has operator-based mobile numbers, _but_ if you switch, you can keep your number if you want to |
| 12:37.21 | raster | so you chnage phone providers and address |
| 12:37.22 | gamin | any news about the quality of the first gta02 phones? ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpt6R4ZNl1w )? |
| 12:37.27 | raster | and your number follows |
| 12:37.29 | cjb_ie | raster: between operators, but not between localities, i think? |
| 12:37.39 | raster | cjb_ie: for mobile phones its irrelevant |
| 12:37.40 | cjb_ie | mjr: same in ireland. |
| 12:37.50 | cjb_ie | raster: well yes, but i'm talking about landlines. |
| 12:38.07 | CM | gamin: When mickeyl used his it released smoke... |
| 12:38.25 | gamin | CM: eww |
| 12:38.32 | raster | cjb_ie: aaah - even then - it can be very broad |
| 12:38.42 | raster | i know in .au the 02 area code now covers a whole state |
| 12:38.58 | raster | and that state isnt the larger ones in .au |
| 12:39.06 | DPThought | taking you number is not really the issue. I would say the only issue you have is that you have to know how the number is contructed. (the address book should help you with that) and then you need to know how your carrier likes numbers dialed (long distance and international prefixes) If you have this sorted out, i guess you have no problem |
| 12:39.08 | raster | nsw is about the size of 3 of 4 us states put together |
| 12:39.13 | mdt | hi raster ... :D |
| 12:39.33 | raster | now within 02 u'll have 02 8xxx and 02 4xxx etc. |
| 12:39.40 | raster | 4 will be outside sydney |
| 12:39.45 | raster | but sydney is big |
| 12:39.51 | cjb_ie | DPThought: it's generally not an issue at all for GSM (except for brazil as cesarb points out) - but it's a lot harder for landlines. |
| 12:39.57 | raster | the original 02 area code that was just sydney is a whole sydney + metro |
| 12:40.01 | SpeedEvil | The right solution is probably to break out numbering by cell-ID |
| 12:40.09 | raster | thats a good 100x100km region |
| 12:40.13 | SpeedEvil | Or network-ID |
| 12:40.19 | raster | or so |
| 12:40.27 | cjb_ie | DPThought: say you're driving down a road in the US and you find a payphone with the local info sheet vandalised - what then? |
| 12:40.48 | raster | ppayphones? |
| 12:40.59 | raster | is that like horse and carriage? |
| 12:41.01 | raster | :) |
| 12:41.25 | SpeedEvil | No, it's a device that takes tokens, and provides a voice channel to the PSTN. :) |
| 12:41.44 | cjb_ie | (though many payphones block DTMF from the mouthpiece until you've dialled enough digits for the phone to know how much to charge you) |
| 12:41.56 | cjb_ie | as in, dialled with the keypad |
| 12:42.04 | ebel | raster: AFAIK sydney is geographicall the largest city in the world. |
| 12:42.18 | SpeedEvil | Sydney is quite extended. |
| 12:42.24 | DPThought | cjb_ie: then you are screwed anyway. Would make no difference if you donkt know what prefix to use or you phone does not know. |
| 12:42.24 | raster | SpeedEvil: wow! how many goats does it take to power? |
| 12:42.25 | raster | :) |
| 12:42.37 | cjb_ie | some countries have no area codes at all - denmark for example |
| 12:42.42 | *** join/#openmoko buz_ (n=buz@84-73-66-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 12:42.46 | raster | ebel: it is? |
| 12:42.48 | cjb_ie | like france, but without the initial 0 |
| 12:43.07 | ebel | raster: so I've heard from sydney people. :) |
| 12:43.23 | raster | wel i know sydney is big |
| 12:43.24 | cjb_ie | and then there's numbers (toll-free, low toll etc) that can only be dialled within a particular country |
| 12:43.26 | raster | geographically |
| 12:43.34 | raster | it takes a long time to go form end to end |
| 12:43.39 | cjb_ie | for example in ireland, freephone numbers are outside the standard number plan. |
| 12:43.52 | *** join/#openmoko mzb_d800 (n=mzb@ppp108-88.static.internode.on.net) |
| 12:44.26 | cjb_ie | you can't store them as +353-1800xxxxxx because that won't work - it'll try to dial a dublin (+3531) number beginning with 800. |
| 12:45.07 | DPThought | cjb_ie: omg |
| 12:45.08 | cjb_ie | there really are more exceptions than rules in this game. |
| 12:45.15 | ebel | Same with lots of of non-geographic numbers in ireland. 1890 (?) is local call rate for all area codes |
| 12:45.33 | raster | lots of exceptions |
| 12:45.36 | cjb_ie | ebel: 1810 up to 1890 are various different reduced rates |
| 12:45.39 | *** join/#openmoko thseiler (n=Thomas@192.76.241.68) |
| 12:46.11 | ebel | k |
| 12:46.36 | cjb_ie | in general, the lower the third digit, the cheaper it is. |
| 12:46.45 | cjb_ie | except for 1850, which is a fixed charge per call, regardless of length. |
| 12:46.53 | raster | so are we done proving area code/number != location yet? |
| 12:46.53 | cjb_ie | so even within the exceptions... there are exceptions |
| 12:46.54 | raster | :) |
| 12:47.29 | cjb_ie | raster: oh, that wasn't what we were at at all :-) |
| 12:47.40 | raster | oooooooooh |
| 12:47.45 | raster | its where we got to |
| 12:47.46 | raster | :) |
| 12:49.10 | DPThought | cjb_ie: does this mean that in reallity there is no working way to organize your phone numbers and dial them automaticly in a universal way? I would have expected that the better phone book apps would have solved this issues. The more you tell about the quirxes the less i belive this would be possible anyway |
| 12:49.16 | *** join/#openmoko tnb (n=tnb@sdgsystems.net) |
| 12:49.17 | rwhitby | raster: the whole western half of australia has an 08 area code. |
| 12:49.32 | rwhitby | that's about the size of half the continental united states. |
| 12:49.40 | rwhitby | (excluding alaska) |
| 12:49.46 | cjb_ie | DPThought: only with a big db in the phone, and then only if that's kept up to date. |
| 12:50.02 | cjb_ie | and even then, it would probably have to automagically update phone numbers in your phone book (though _that_ would be a nice feature) |
| 12:50.12 | raster | DPThought: dial them in full form |
| 12:50.22 | raster | DPThought: eg +81 90 8237 8245 |
| 12:50.24 | cjb_ie | raster: except in brazil. scroll up. |
| 12:50.28 | raster | or +61 413 432 564 |
| 12:50.36 | raster | cjb_ie: really? |
| 12:50.38 | raster | in jp0 too |
| 12:50.44 | raster | they dont do universal dialling with + |
| 12:50.51 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@c-76-30-222-129.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 12:50.56 | cjb_ie | ooh, another country to add to the sin list |
| 12:51.03 | raster | rwhitby: i know - but thats WA. not like there's a lot there! :):):) |
| 12:51.12 | rwhitby | raster: SA too |
| 12:51.26 | raster | rwhitby: SA is 08 too? |
| 12:51.29 | DPThought | raster: sure. But this seems not to work on POTS because your phone needs to know which part of the number is which and add prefixes if needed |
| 12:51.30 | rwhitby | and yes, the other eight digits aren't going to be used up soon. |
| 12:51.39 | rwhitby | raster: yep |
| 12:51.56 | raster | DPThought: has worked for me in every country i have made calls form - except japan |
| 12:52.01 | raster | never tried in brazil |
| 12:52.05 | DPThought | raster: on gsm |
| 12:52.09 | raster | rwhitby: well thats just silly! |
| 12:52.10 | raster | :) |
| 12:52.38 | DPThought | raster: there is no + sign on your plain old phone ;) |
| 12:52.45 | mjr | reminds me of this funny story how Finland got stuck with a three-digit country code even when we weren't very lagging behind in phone system development; apparently these guys representing got really drunk the night before the conference where these would be decided... |
| 12:52.51 | raster | rwhitby: thats right - you are in the 'laide - ex moto? |
| 12:53.17 | rwhitby | raster: I started moto in adl |
| 12:53.27 | raster | mjr: now thats a worthy story! |
| 12:53.28 | rwhitby | then fsl |
| 12:53.29 | cjb_ie | mjr: really? i was under the impression that country codes got decided mostly on the basis of how many people, and to a lesser extent how many phones, a country had. |
| 12:53.32 | gamin | is there actually still a windows mobile port for the neo being developed or has that stopped? |
| 12:53.39 | raster | rwhitby: yeah - then moto canned u all :( |
| 12:53.39 | *** join/#openmoko cb22_ (n=cb22@dsl-245-145-221.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 12:53.47 | rwhitby | raster: 08 is also cocos and christmas island |
| 12:53.55 | cjb_ie | mjr: for example, finland and ireland have roughly the same population, and got 358 and 353 |
| 12:54.19 | mjr | cjb_ie, well, that's what I've heard, don't go ruining a perfectly good anecdote |
| 12:54.30 | cjb_ie | US and canada only got a single-digit code by clubbing together (and boy what a mess that is...) |
| 12:54.31 | raster | rwhitby: more proof area codes are useless geographically |
| 12:54.32 | raster | :) |
| 12:54.55 | mjr | US and Canada have the same code? |
| 12:55.00 | raster | mjr: i prefer the drunk story. |
| 12:55.00 | cjb_ie | mjr: +1 |
| 12:55.00 | mjr | sheesh |
| 12:55.04 | raster | mjr: yes. |
| 12:55.13 | raster | mjr: different area codes, same country code |
| 12:55.17 | mjr | yeah I knew US was +1, I didn't know Canada was clumped in there as well |
| 12:55.21 | rwhitby | raster: the .au numbering plan is documented at http://internet.aca.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=IND_REG_TEL_NUMPOL |
| 12:55.23 | mjr | what a ripoff |
| 12:55.24 | raster | thus usa is just southern-canadia really |
| 12:55.47 | raster | rwhitby: i just know if it was outside 02 - it was too far away :) |
| 12:55.50 | raster | (long ago) |
| 12:56.19 | rwhitby | usa, canada, australia - all just offshoots of the british empire ;-) |
| 12:56.25 | cjb_ie | mjr: you can't tell which country a +1 number is unless you have a lookup table for area codes. +1-809 is puerto rico, btw, which is also considered an international call from the US. |
| 12:56.37 | mjr | *sigh* |
| 12:56.52 | mjr | well-lobbied, that +1... |
| 12:57.36 | ebel | cjb_ie: I thought puerto rico was part of the USA. |
| 12:57.55 | cjb_ie | ebel: it kind of is, and kind of isn't. |
| 12:57.59 | mjr | (lobbying reminds me, did people know already that OOXML fast-track was disapproved?) |
| 12:57.59 | ebel | Put they have done some sort of deal which screws over the puerto ricans. |
| 12:59.59 | cjb_ie | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Area_codes_in_Canada |
| 13:02.19 | *** join/#openmoko k-s[WORK] (n=gustavo@200.184.118.132) |
| 13:02.58 | cjb_ie | and after all that, i was wrong about 809 - it's not puerto rico, it's the dominican republic |
| 13:03.49 | ScaredyCat | moo |
| 13:04.22 | Placid | moo |
| 13:05.44 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@84-73-66-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 13:07.04 | ScaredyCat | mjr : the dodgy iso ? |
| 13:07.12 | CM | Yes |
| 13:07.15 | ScaredyCat | good |
| 13:07.55 | CM | It's insane to have 6000+ pages specification that includes lines like "handle margins in the same way as word95" |
| 13:08.09 | ScaredyCat | roflmao |
| 13:08.12 | *** join/#openmoko andrunko (n=andrunko@200.184.118.132) |
| 13:08.13 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2903 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/smedia-glamo.patch: |
| 13:08.13 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * add a missing 'break' statement resulting in FBIOPUT_VSCREENINFO to always fail |
| 13:08.13 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * indicate that 24/32bpp will never be supported with glamo3362 |
| 13:08.16 | ScaredyCat | I wonder who suggested that one |
| 13:09.20 | SpeedEvil | CM: what spec? |
| 13:09.25 | zash_se | SpeedEvil: ooxml |
| 13:09.29 | SpeedEvil | oh |
| 13:09.50 | SpeedEvil | oh oh even. |
| 13:10.10 | mjr | and there are _many_ things like that in it |
| 13:10.36 | zash_se | and reinvent-the-wheel type of stuff |
| 13:10.46 | mjr | and of course, many things quite unlike that but similarly stupid and/or malicious |
| 13:10.58 | SpeedEvil | And ambiguous I suppose. |
| 13:11.07 | SpeedEvil | To leave plenty of room for incompatibility. |
| 13:11.14 | zash_se | and bugs from the 80's |
| 13:11.17 | mjr | ..."Yeah, here you use windows metafiles but we won't tell you what those are) |
| 13:12.45 | mjr | also, handily by leaving stuff out of the spec itself but just referencing it, they exclude it from their "patent promise" |
| 13:13.05 | *** join/#openmoko gyaresu (n=gyaresu@ppp121-44-223-200.lns1.hba1.internode.on.net) |
| 13:14.46 | *** join/#openmoko DeeQx (n=Zwain@adsl-212-16-103-6.taloyhtioverkot.fi) |
| 13:19.12 | Writchie | morning all mokomaniacs |
| 13:20.20 | *** join/#openmoko ferric (n=aditya@dsl081-134-176.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 13:20.44 | mjr | morn' |
| 13:21.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 798 has been created by <laforge> |
| 13:21.02 | cdbot2 | * * audio driver for GTA02 missing |
| 13:21.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=798 |
| 13:21.28 | *** join/#openmoko some1_ (n=some1@p54A0C77C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:21.47 | Writchie | i'm sorry i missed the numbering plan discussion - lots of urban legend non-sense there. |
| 13:22.08 | ScaredyCat | all your number are belong to US |
| 13:22.59 | Writchie | actuall 1 was world zone 1 (North American) and 7 was world zone 7 (USSR) |
| 13:23.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 797 has been created by <laforge> |
| 13:23.01 | cdbot2 | * * splash screen / boot menu support for GTA02 missing |
| 13:23.02 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=797 |
| 13:26.57 | Stephmw | howdy |
| 13:30.26 | Placid | hi |
| 13:31.16 | *** join/#openmoko cga (n=cga@213-140-6-101.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 13:34.47 | Writchie | there is only one sane way i've ever seen to store numbers in gsm in a single field : +xxxxxxxxxxxxx where the number is in standard e.164 international formal and no + for all other cases. |
| 13:35.16 | Writchie | although its better two have two fields and indicate the type of number. |
| 13:36.07 | Writchie | GSM spec requires that any number dialed with the international format be handled correctly within the country in which the call originates. |
| 13:36.19 | Writchie | even if its a local number |
| 13:37.12 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@217.206.93.210) |
| 13:38.17 | *** join/#openmoko crunchywelch (n=welch@ool-18b9456b.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 13:38.32 | ScaredyCat | Writchie: and yet so many carriers are out of spec |
| 13:38.54 | *** join/#openmoko mzb (n=mzb@ppp108-88.static.internode.on.net) |
| 13:38.58 | Writchie | gsm carriers: name one |
| 13:39.18 | ScaredyCat | kpn, vodafone... |
| 13:39.33 | XorA | vodafone UK works fine |
| 13:39.36 | ScaredyCat | iirc orange too |
| 13:39.48 | XorA | Orange UK works fine |
| 13:39.54 | ScaredyCat | the .nl variants aren;t |
| 13:40.13 | Writchie | i've never seen a single gsm carrier fail a call in proper +XXXXXXXXXX format. |
| 13:40.19 | Writchie | although, of course, anything is possible |
| 13:40.33 | Writchie | this is a very basic low level part of the call setup |
| 13:40.35 | ScaredyCat | spend a few days in .nl |
| 13:40.41 | Writchie | it essential for roaming |
| 13:40.53 | *** join/#openmoko korihor (n=humberto@190.75.38.113) |
| 13:41.02 | *** join/#openmoko wansti (n=wansti@c120.apm.etc.tu-bs.de) |
| 13:41.04 | ScaredyCat | no it's not essential for roaming... |
| 13:41.05 | XorA | Vodafone.nl works fine for a Vodafone UK sim |
| 13:41.18 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=khmhm@3e70d21b.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 13:41.31 | ScaredyCat | the sims work... that has nothing to do with it |
| 13:41.37 | *** join/#openmoko ebel (n=rory@212.2.163.234) |
| 13:41.46 | Writchie | its essential to meet the require that numbers stored in proper format in your sim work properly when roaming or when in your home network. |
| 13:42.05 | Writchie | s/require/requirement/ |
| 13:42.06 | ScaredyCat | that doesn;t make it essential |
| 13:42.12 | *** join/#openmoko cbrake (n=cbrake@oh-69-34-21-229.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 13:42.31 | ScaredyCat | it might be "what's suppposed to be the case" |
| 13:42.45 | ScaredyCat | but it's not essential by any means for gsm traffic |
| 13:43.07 | Writchie | wow? i guess you never spent billions on network equipment |
| 13:43.37 | ScaredyCat | if it were essential then it would work everywhere and we wouldn;t be debating it |
| 13:44.13 | ScaredyCat | .. and spending billions on network equipment - wtf ... |
| 13:44.14 | Writchie | you still haven't given one example of a network failing to meet 24.008 call setup spec |
| 13:44.24 | ScaredyCat | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:44.46 | gamin | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/+31 doesn't mention that you can't use +YYxxxx... |
| 13:45.26 | cjb_ie | Writchie: a few screens back, cesarb gave brazil as example, raster gave japan |
| 13:46.12 | Writchie | japan is not gsm |
| 13:48.00 | mjr | and apparently brazil is not either if that's true ;) |
| 13:48.12 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Wish_List]] |
| 13:48.38 | Writchie | mjr: brazil is mostly gsm. |
| 13:49.05 | mjr | meant that if it's true that they don't support the proper intl. number format |
| 13:49.50 | cjb_ie | and my example from earlier of one of the virtual cellcos in the UK not supporting +nnn - you have to prefix 2, then dial 00 and country code. |
| 13:49.59 | Writchie | if "equal access" type dialing is imposed by regulation for every call on a call by case basis then it is effectively a prohibition on automatic dialing. |
| 13:51.35 | Writchie | can't way to see what cesarb: reports for type of numbers allowed |
| 13:51.36 | XorA | All this discussion and all these poor people are basically unable to use vCards at all |
| 13:52.54 | Writchie | XorA: vCard? |
| 13:53.07 | *** join/#openmoko Ryback_ (n=ulisses@200.184.118.132) |
| 13:53.40 | XorA | Writchie: never sent a vCard SMS? |
| 13:53.57 | XorA | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCard |
| 13:54.09 | Writchie | sure - what does that have to do with dialing |
| 13:54.31 | *** join/#openmoko mindCrime__ (n=chatzill@66.83.208.218.nw.nuvox.net) |
| 13:54.34 | CM | XorA: Totally OT, but impressive: http://www.brickfrenzy.com/?m=blackout |
| 13:54.34 | XorA | Writchie: well if none of these networks support +XX NNNNNNNN then vCards are totally useless to those users |
| 13:54.53 | XorA | Writchie: as you can never send them a working number without knowing their network |
| 13:55.33 | XorA | CM: well cool |
| 13:55.37 | DPThought | XorA: i got the craziest number formattings in vcards you can imagine. In fact they are useless because (aparently) noone stores his number the right way in his address book |
| 13:55.42 | Writchie | the +XXXXXXXXXXXX is the correct format - its all going to work except for a few corner cases of odd-ball non-compliant networks. |
| 13:56.01 | Writchie | and of course in the US 99% of the population has no idea what it means |
| 13:56.33 | cjb_ie | it's sad how some people don't even realise these things. my ex goes back and forth between hong kong and ireland and was bemoaning having to dial numbers differently... |
| 13:57.11 | Writchie | wow - this probably was solved by gsm in the first place |
| 13:57.26 | Writchie | in the early 90's |
| 13:57.37 | riot | hah. it finally builds :D |
| 13:57.44 | cjb_ie | (specifically, she was bemoaning having to dial numbers differently, _on her gsm phone_ ) |
| 13:57.46 | XorA | riot: YAY |
| 13:57.55 | cjb_ie | then i told her about storing with initial + |
| 13:58.03 | riot | and i forgot to time it *sigh* |
| 13:58.59 | cjb_ie | i don't get how someone can have a gsm for years and not find out about storing numbers in canonical format |
| 13:59.19 | DPThought | Writchie: this is how far we got. GSM is no problem. Use the +xxxxx form and you are fine. But when it comes to dialig on landlines (with DTMF tones) you acre screwed even if you have your number in this format. Because you have to dial the number acording to your local dial plan and therefore yu need to know which part of the number represents the area code and country code |
| 13:59.24 | DPThought | cjb_ie: strue |
| 13:59.27 | DPThought | true |
| 13:59.33 | ScaredyCat | CM: impressive that it's broken ? |
| 13:59.37 | CM | cjb_ie: Simply because they're still used to land lines who rarely need the conly code |
| 13:59.51 | Writchie | DPThought: sounds about right. |
| 13:59.56 | CM | ScaredyCat: The link? |
| 13:59.58 | cjb_ie | CM: but every received call on GSM shows up in canonical format...! |
| 14:00.05 | ScaredyCat | the site at the end of the link |
| 14:00.09 | Writchie | To dial locally you have map from canonical form through a dial plan |
| 14:00.18 | ScaredyCat | mysql errors everywhere |
| 14:00.36 | Writchie | you will still encounter anomolies in many places. |
| 14:00.54 | CM | cjb_ie: Hmm.. Sure? I never see the country code, only area + number |
| 14:01.10 | Writchie | For example, here (AT&T - formally Bell South - formally AT&T ) behaves different call type by call type |
| 14:01.15 | CM | ScaredyCat: Ah, now it's broken for me too. Worked a minute ago |
| 14:01.22 | cjb_ie | CM: where? |
| 14:01.35 | Writchie | local number sometime requires 1NPA and sometimes not |
| 14:01.39 | CM | cjb_ie: Sweden, gsm only since always |
| 14:01.47 | DPThought | Writchie: i think a mandantory formating like +49 (761) 123456 would solve this issue. All you need then is a dial plan. I don't know if this is worth the efford, but it sounds fun to have |
| 14:02.04 | cjb_ie | CM: i've been to sweden lots of times, and used GSM there... |
| 14:02.07 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@84-73-66-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 14:02.08 | CM | ScaredyCat: Try again, worked now |
| 14:02.20 | CM | cjb_ie: Maybe it depends on the carrier? |
| 14:02.25 | Writchie | without the dial plan you may have problems with a required "0" IIRC |
| 14:02.31 | cjb_ie | DPThought: and would denmark then be +46 () 12345678 ? |
| 14:02.55 | DPThought | cjb_ie: jup |
| 14:02.57 | Writchie | DPThought: you think the user will get it right more often ? |
| 14:03.08 | DPThought | Writchie: well, ... :) |
| 14:03.11 | CM | cjb_ie: It would be sweden.. |
| 14:03.14 | CM | :) |
| 14:03.21 | cjb_ie | erm, sorry. +45 |
| 14:03.33 | cjb_ie | too many numbers floating around my head |
| 14:04.00 | Writchie | in us people using + often forget the 1 and end up going out internationally |
| 14:04.28 | Writchie | fortunately, most of them don't know there are countries outside the US and have internationally outbound calls barred (the default for all carriers) |
| 14:04.57 | cjb_ie | the... default? wow. |
| 14:05.17 | Writchie | most are thankful at $5.00 a minute |
| 14:05.22 | ScaredyCat | stops the tersts you know |
| 14:05.26 | Writchie | or per wrong number |
| 14:06.08 | mwester | cjb_ie: the US is a big place; there are many people who have never been in another country -- also many people who have never left the state in which they were born! |
| 14:06.37 | Writchie | onlyl 1% of incoming congressman have ever been outside the US |
| 14:06.52 | cjb_ie | mwester: right, but having no interest in relating to people outside the US is frightening. |
| 14:06.58 | CM | They changed area codes in Sweden a few years ago, and suddenly my grandma started getting calls from Kazakhstan, maybe 2-3 per day, usually early in the morning. Took about a month before they fixed that routing problem.. |
| 14:07.01 | DPThought | Writchie: i guess when you have three fields for the number in your address book users will probably get it right. the first and second field filled out with default and the curser placed in the middle field |
| 14:07.11 | ScaredyCat | http://www.brickfrenzy.com/?m=badger <------CM |
| 14:07.15 | mwester | cjb_ie: Yes. frightening is a good word. |
| 14:07.22 | Writchie | CM: they changed which side of the road they drive on - try that in the US? |
| 14:07.43 | cjb_ie | DPThought: the default? |
| 14:08.07 | CM | ScaredyCat: Hehe |
| 14:08.08 | DPThought | cjb_ie: for example the last you used |
| 14:08.21 | Writchie | when you sign up international outgoing calls are barred until you enable them with the carrier? |
| 14:08.55 | Writchie | DPThought: you need to consider language issues here. |
| 14:08.58 | cjb_ie | DPThought: but, 'filled out with default' - how do you decide what to put in there? |
| 14:09.12 | Writchie | DPThought: this is the problem with heavy formatting. |
| 14:09.47 | ScaredyCat | you don't fill out any defaults, you don;t stop the user doing whatever they want ... |
| 14:09.48 | Writchie | area code, dial code, local prefix, etc. its all very localized terminology for the typical user. |
| 14:10.02 | ScaredyCat | and you don't force formating |
| 14:10.20 | *** join/#openmoko _buz (n=buz@84-73-66-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 14:10.29 | cjb_ie | ScaredyCat: so we come back to needing a big database to figure out how to parse numbers. |
| 14:10.42 | ScaredyCat | why do you want to parse them? |
| 14:10.44 | cjb_ie | and let's not forget the numbers that can't be expressed in canonical format. |
| 14:10.56 | *** join/#openmoko ozarka (n=elineber@12.106.220.2) |
| 14:11.10 | cjb_ie | ScaredyCat: to figure out how to dial DTMF on landlines. |
| 14:11.20 | ScaredyCat | huh ? |
| 14:11.51 | ScaredyCat | you want to dial a number then when answered some dtmf? |
| 14:12.19 | *** join/#openmoko cbrake (n=cbrake@oh-69-34-21-229.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 14:12.20 | cjb_ie | no, hold PDA up to a phone to dial a number |
| 14:12.26 | DPThought | cjb_ie, Writchie: yea. Thats true. But is there more than country and area code you need to know? Besides how to name these fields |
| 14:12.28 | cjb_ie | instead of looking it up and dialling it from creen. |
| 14:12.29 | Writchie | cjb_ie: the dialing on gsm networks (possibly Brasil excepted) is not problem, all others are need a dialplan |
| 14:12.30 | *** join/#openmoko morten__ (n=morten@ti500720a080-2275.bb.online.no) |
| 14:12.55 | cjb_ie | Writchie: yeah, GSM's not the problem (except for brazil, and weird virtual operators in the UK) |
| 14:13.06 | morten__ | Hello guys =) |
| 14:13.06 | Writchie | DPThought: you need to know, for each use of the number, what codes may be required. |
| 14:13.36 | Writchie | for example, when setting a call forward, neigher 1 nor NPA can be used or the setup will fail. |
| 14:13.52 | Writchie | When dialing, 1 and NPA must be used. |
| 14:14.08 | cjb_ie | Writchie: NPA? |
| 14:14.27 | Writchie | Sometimes, there are other issues depending on how inter-lata long distance and intra-lata long distance is handled. |
| 14:14.39 | Writchie | NPA is north american numbering plan area |
| 14:14.53 | Writchie | its the real name for what most call area code |
| 14:15.07 | ScaredyCat | ssh catlitter@at.the.cattery |
| 14:15.29 | cjb_ie | Writchie: i mentioned an example earlier - irish republic is +353, northern ireland is +44-28 - but to dial NI from the republic, you dial 048. otherwise you may pay cross-channel rates. |
| 14:16.11 | ScaredyCat | what's the issue with a db ? |
| 14:16.14 | Writchie | there are many schemes like this |
| 14:16.16 | *** join/#openmoko bmidgley2 (n=brad@c-24-2-92-215.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 14:16.35 | ScaredyCat | I have a callerid lookup db with ovr 8 million records and it's pretty small .. |
| 14:16.44 | cjb_ie | ScaredyCat: keeping it up to date on peoples' phones as they change |
| 14:16.58 | Writchie | cjb_ie: For example, when roaming in China using Hong Kong Smartone (years back) you could bypass the chinese network by using dialing through service codes. |
| 14:17.14 | Writchie | cjb_ie: again, i think these are "dial plan" issues. |
| 14:17.18 | ScaredyCat | well, they aren't going to have 8 million records to update... and it could be some centralized update |
| 14:17.20 | ScaredyCat | like ipkg |
| 14:17.49 | ScaredyCat | ipkg update thedialcodedb |
| 14:18.23 | Writchie | with a very small database you can reliably extract the true "country code" |
| 14:18.25 | cjb_ie | ...and then what do you do with numbers that aren't (or can't be) stored in canonical format? |
| 14:18.35 | cjb_ie | Writchie: that's true. |
| 14:18.35 | *** part/#openmoko mortenlysgaard (n=morten@ti500720a080-2275.bb.online.no) |
| 14:18.36 | Writchie | the you can apply a country specific and carrier specific dialing plan. |
| 14:18.43 | Writchie | s/the/then/ |
| 14:18.45 | wibbit | Stupid question, but how do mobile phones currently deal with the situation in southern/northern ireland? |
| 14:18.56 | *** join/#openmoko Henrikw (n=henrik@51.84-48-54.nextgentel.com) |
| 14:18.58 | Writchie | the country codes change as well from time to time. |
| 14:19.14 | cjb_ie | wibbit: the cellcos handle it okay, but it's pot luck with landline operators |
| 14:19.24 | wibbit | I would have thought it is up to the user to know whether they should be dialing +44-28 or +48. |
| 14:19.34 | Writchie | cjb_ie: telcos use the LERG Local Exchange Routing Guide database |
| 14:19.35 | cjb_ie | however, if you have international call barring enabled, you have to dial 048, not 004428 |
| 14:20.03 | cjb_ie | wibbit: why? it's normal practice for gsm users to store numbers in canonical +44 format |
| 14:20.12 | ScaredyCat | is it? |
| 14:20.27 | cjb_ie | for anyone who ever roams, certainly. |
| 14:20.29 | wibbit | ScaredyCat: I don't think it is, I do, but I know more people that don't than do. |
| 14:20.35 | cjb_ie | else what's the point in storing them in the phone? |
| 14:20.38 | Writchie | it started out 99% of gsm users doing it canonically. |
| 14:20.45 | wibbit | cjb_ie: I think you'll find that the roaming populous isn't that greate in the UK. |
| 14:20.46 | ScaredyCat | most people don;t roam |
| 14:20.54 | Writchie | but now is probably closer to 10% |
| 14:21.14 | XorA | means the incoming call notification works properly as well |
| 14:21.24 | wibbit | cjb_ie: if some one phones you on a nokia phone within your country it appears as 077xxxx, or what ever, not as +44xxxxx, |
| 14:21.25 | mwester | Keep in mind that there will be a class of users who will simply want OpenMoko to "do it the same way my <insert cell-phone model here> does it". |
| 14:21.35 | cjb_ie | wibbit: not here it doesn't. |
| 14:21.43 | Writchie | my teenagers store it correctly only because they grew up as expats - few in the US know what the +1xxxxxxxxxx means |
| 14:21.51 | wibbit | what part of here are you in? :) |
| 14:22.02 | *** join/#openmoko mortenlysgaard (n=mortenly@ti500720a080-2275.bb.online.no) |
| 14:22.02 | ScaredyCat | lol |
| 14:22.12 | Writchie | where is here |
| 14:22.12 | cjb_ie | +353 / .ie |
| 14:22.23 | wibbit | cjb_ie: south then |
| 14:22.53 | cjb_ie | there's plenty of people here wander cross-border. i guess eng-scot-wales is a bit more insular :p |
| 14:23.21 | wibbit | cjb_ie: swap "insular" for "integrated" |
| 14:23.52 | cjb_ie | you say tomato, ... |
| 14:23.57 | Writchie | wibbit: gsm is pretty careful to identify "type of number" |
| 14:24.07 | ScaredyCat | swap 'cross the border' for nip accross the border to kneecap a few people; |
| 14:24.12 | Writchie | what the user sees is a UI issue |
| 14:24.42 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@124-171-198-246.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 14:24.43 | Writchie | the base formats are E.164 number or 'Unknown" or "National" |
| 14:24.53 | cjb_ie | what many phones do to get around the issue is they only look up the last 7 or 8 digits of an incoming call in the user's phonebook |
| 14:25.17 | ScaredyCat | I hope not... |
| 14:25.38 | wibbit | All I know is, if some one phones me, and they are not in the phone book, it appears as 07xxxx, with no international info |
| 14:25.38 | ScaredyCat | although I suppose know ing 2 poeple with the same 8 last digits would be rare |
| 14:25.40 | cjb_ie | so even if you have john stored as 011234567 in your phone book, and it comes in as +35311234567, it still recognises it as john. |
| 14:25.53 | Writchie | "type of number" is always specified on gsm calls, either implicitly or explicitly |
| 14:25.53 | cjb_ie | ScaredyCat: i've seen this on several phones. |
| 14:26.44 | *** join/#openmoko jgm (n=jgm@host-87-74-179-156.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 14:27.08 | wibbit | Writchie: so your saying, the only reason it appears as 07xxx is because that is how nokia chooses to display it, however the raw info the phone receives provides international dialing info |
| 14:27.10 | cjb_ie | wibbit: interesting. here (and anywhere i've roamed) it's always in full canonical format. |
| 14:27.47 | cjb_ie | maybe operators always present CLID in full canonical format to phones that are roaming? |
| 14:27.59 | Writchie | wibbit: nokia is displaying it that way because the network gave either a type of number as "National" or "Unknown" |
| 14:28.23 | wibbit | Just checked, and all the unknown numbers appear as canonical (07xxx). |
| 14:28.26 | Writchie | gsm IIRC ALWAYS labels numbers |
| 14:28.27 | cjb_ie | (and protect the non-roaming users from the ugly details) |
| 14:28.37 | wibbit | Writchie: "The network" being the network that the source call is coming from? |
| 14:28.55 | Writchie | the gsm network |
| 14:29.17 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 14:29.20 | Writchie | gsm generall interfaces with SS7 for the public network |
| 14:29.39 | wibbit | Writchie: that doesn't narrow it down much, however I assume then that you mean the GSM network your connected to? Or are you saying that the entire network globally is all one thing? |
| 14:30.22 | ScaredyCat | well, i have 162976 world wide dialing codes if anyone needs them... |
| 14:30.38 | cjb_ie | ScaredyCat: does that include dialling out as well as in? |
| 14:30.40 | Writchie | if the call was interworked, it arrives with calling number according to the interface |
| 14:30.48 | Writchie | which is generally e.164 numbers |
| 14:31.02 | ScaredyCat | area codes cjb_ie |
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| 14:31.08 | Writchie | the MSC passes this on together with labeling what type of number it is. |
| 14:31.13 | ScaredyCat | about 8 million full numbers though |
| 14:31.24 | Writchie | and we get it in the phone with a type of number and the number itself. |
| 14:31.24 | ScaredyCat | (in additon to dialing codes) |
| 14:31.27 | ScaredyCat | area |
| 14:31.32 | ScaredyCat | +cc |
| 14:31.33 | Writchie | and the MMI presents it - according to whatever |
| 14:31.58 | Writchie | the MMI may consider the home area code and home network country etc. |
| 14:32.14 | Writchie | but the lower layers just pass it up the stack. |
| 14:32.40 | Writchie | basically internation i.e. E.164 is always meaningful - everything else depend |
| 14:32.52 | cjb_ie | Writchie: about ten years back, digifone in ireland was having great difficulty getting caller id to work when it came from eircell and telecom eireann (state cellco and state telco) - for the first year or so, caller id worked only internally within digifone's network - then it mangled it very strangely, showed up with no country code and sometimes no area code, or partial area code. |
| 14:33.57 | jgm | ScaredyCat: those dialling codes, can you send me a copy? I have a bunch of country/regional codes but nowhere near that many |
| 14:34.01 | cjb_ie | eventually they all managed to start playing ball together. couple of years later, you could even send SMS between digifone and eircell phones |
| 14:34.23 | cjb_ie | ScaredyCat: yes please! http somewhere perhaps? |
| 14:34.23 | ScaredyCat | sure, lem me take out personal ones. |
| 14:34.25 | Writchie | cjb_ie: is has a lot to do with type of switches used by the land operator |
| 14:34.34 | jgm | Don't suppose anyone has a list of MCCs (along with their corresponding country)? Don't want to have to parse the wp page |
| 14:35.19 | cjb_ie | ScaredyCat: personal dialing codes?!? |
| 14:37.53 | ScaredyCat | cjb_ie: I use it for clip/clid lookup.... |
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| 14:41.33 | Writchie | wibbit: IIRC with GSM, if the call is dialed on the same network using the same type of number and number as received is it supposed to work. |
| 14:41.43 | Writchie | in order to support a call back. |
| 14:42.01 | Writchie | this is unlike caller ID in the US where you can't return a call |
| 14:42.07 | Writchie | unless you program a dial plan |
| 14:42.13 | wibbit | Writchie: in which case, there is no requirement to show the international dialing codes. |
| 14:42.25 | Writchie | US landlines that is |
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| 14:43.41 | Writchie | cjb_ie: DPThought: I think the best policy to always store type of number and number |
| 14:44.02 | ScaredyCat | jgm: it would be nice to expand the db, possibly with cell id's too |
| 14:44.15 | cjb_ie | Writchie: along with network on which the number was received? |
| 14:44.25 | DPThought | In ISDN the number showes on your phone (CLIPS) is more or less only cosmetic. This is not the umber the network uses as the callee itentifier. So i could imagine the CLIPS field is not transformed to a international number. |
| 14:45.43 | Writchie | DPThought: let me check here - i think i get an I.164 number on gsm |
| 14:45.54 | ScaredyCat | caller id and ANI are different |
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| 14:49.11 | DPThought | Writchie: someone told me gsm is more or less isdn over air. :) |
| 14:49.29 | cjb_ie | with a speech codec |
| 14:49.51 | DPThought | yea, well as much as the tisgnalling gos of course |
| 14:49.58 | Writchie | DPThought: I get a full 1NPANXXXXX but it is labeled 129 - ISDN/telephony numbering plan, national/international unknown |
| 14:50.42 | cjb_ie | so the cellco couldn't be arsed configuring things properly? |
| 14:50.43 | DPThought | Writchie: i'm not sure that this means. But i bet you do. :) |
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| 14:51.28 | Writchie | county code - three digit area code, 7 digit local number |
| 14:52.18 | Writchie | in the olde days all area codes had 0 or 1 in the middle digit and no exchange prefices where allowed to have 0 or 1 so the switch could always tell. |
| 14:53.35 | Writchie | populous areas used 1 as a middle digit for easy rotary dialing and the places we fly over used 0 |
| 14:53.59 | Writchie | this is whee 212 312 213 come from. |
| 14:54.09 | Writchie | new york, chicago, LA |
| 14:54.11 | jgm | ScaredyCat: trouble is the size. It is already ~600K with just country and region codes |
| 14:54.48 | jgm | (Plus names of countries and regions, which is where the bulk of the space is taken up even after normalising) |
| 14:54.50 | DPThought | Writchie: i somehow lost the plot the last minutes. But i guess this means your network sends you a number you could call back internationally? |
| 14:55.29 | cjb_ie | personally i'd be for all numbers being presented in canonical format, so that one can call them back even if one roams in the interim. |
| 14:55.31 | Writchie | it will work as long you present the number with the correct type of number i.e. 129 |
| 14:55.55 | Writchie | for dialing, the type of number needs to be set correctly. |
| 14:56.27 | Writchie | so in the future, the dialing API should always have two fields, type of number and number |
| 14:56.32 | DPThought | Writchie: ah, this is where i'm lost. What are this types? (sorry) |
| 14:56.49 | jgm | cjb_ie: one of the other things that I'm playing with related to the DB is the ability to translate any number from 'local' format to full international |
| 14:56.56 | cjb_ie | Writchie: so if you receive, say 1212nnnnnnn marked as a national number, and then fly to mexico - and want to call them back - what then? |
| 14:57.17 | cjb_ie | jgm: _almost_ any number. |
| 14:57.48 | Writchie | DPThough: in lower bowels of gsm there are 5 number types, unknown, internation number, national number, network specific number, dedicated acces aka short code |
| 14:58.19 | jgm | Yeah as much as possible (hopefully covering all of the cases that we'd care about with user-visible dialling, anyway) |
| 14:58.44 | cjb_ie | for example in ireland, freephone numbers are outside the geographic number plan. you can't store them as +353-1800xxxxxx because that won't work - it'll try to dial a dublin (+3531) number beginning with 800. |
| 14:58.52 | Writchie | at the AT command level, 129 is national/international unknown number, 145 is international number, 161 is national number |
| 15:00.01 | jgm | cjb_ie: depends where that 1 in the number comes from |
| 15:00.05 | cjb_ie | some UK freephone (0800) numbers are accessible from outside UK as +44800, but no irish freephone (1800) numbers are - because essentially dialling +353 gives the same effect as starting with a 0, from inside ireland. |
| 15:00.23 | Writchie | DPThought: you use 145 when the number is in the + format = the plus will be ignored in the AT command |
| 15:00.23 | Kero | cjb_ie: is there a list of these "awkward" numbers and conversions on the Wiki somewhere? |
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| 15:00.38 | Kero | so someone can tackle those correctly at some point. |
| 15:00.42 | Writchie | you use 129 when you don't know if the number is national or international |
| 15:00.42 | jgm | If there are specific rules it wouldn't be hard to build them in (although obviously a pain to maintain) |
| 15:00.45 | cjb_ie | Kero: dunno. i'm just giving edge cases i've picked up over the last n years. |
| 15:00.57 | Kero | cjb_ie: they're wonderful testcases |
| 15:01.24 | ScaredyCat | where did you want it sent jgm? |
| 15:01.27 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 15:01.37 | cjb_ie | jgm: how do you propose to handle a random number, say 012345678? do you guess the country based on other information in the vcard, and then extrapolate? |
| 15:01.39 | Writchie | cjb_ie: accessible but not free ;) |
| 15:01.40 | DPThought | Writchie: ah. nice feature |
| 15:02.14 | jgm | ScaredyCat: Jim@devzero.net |
| 15:02.15 | cjb_ie | Writchie: and how does the network then handle a 129 number that's been dialed? |
| 15:02.37 | Writchie | cjb_ie: according to local network rules |
| 15:03.01 | cjb_ie | ScaredyCat: cjb@cjb.ie please? |
| 15:03.14 | jgm | cjb_ie: depends on where it comes from. If you have the local country code plus a (valid) number you should be able to work it out (with the exception of the exceptions, of course ;)) |
| 15:03.54 | cjb_ie | jgm: ...and where do get the country code from? |
| 15:03.59 | Obri | is this a known problem? http://obri.sygroup.ch/neo1973_uboot_sdcard |
| 15:04.07 | *** part/#openmoko DeeQx (n=Zwain@adsl-212-16-103-6.taloyhtioverkot.fi) |
| 15:04.10 | Obri | i cant boot from SD Card |
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| 15:05.06 | cjb_ie | jgm: though i guess it's reasonable(ish) to assume a number entered will be as dialled in the local country... |
| 15:05.16 | jgm | cjb_ie: yeah I assume you'd get it from gsmd |
| 15:05.27 | Writchie | SpeedEvil: how so? |
| 15:05.36 | SpeedEvil | If indeed, as implied on the ML, the GPS chip is changing. |
| 15:05.43 | Writchie | what? |
| 15:05.53 | cjb_ie | hammerhead to sirf for definite? |
| 15:05.58 | ScaredyCat | tis sent jgm / cjb_ie |
| 15:06.02 | SpeedEvil | No, nothing definate. |
| 15:06.16 | SpeedEvil | Just implications from people who would know. |
| 15:06.46 | SpeedEvil | The guy that is on the broadcom/global-locate side saying that their is not one of their chips in GTA02. |
| 15:07.02 | jgm | ScaredyCat: got it, thanks |
| 15:07.17 | Kero | SpeedEvil: you'd still help 2000+ developers, I suppose? |
| 15:07.20 | cjb_ie | ScaredyCat: ditto - cheers |
| 15:07.58 | SpeedEvil | Kero: Indeed. But, only the subset that are not satisfied by the existing binary GPS software. |
| 15:08.00 | Writchie | SpeedEvil: Open Source issues? |
| 15:08.15 | DPThought | oh, i assumed this would be common knowledge. I'm quite sure harald welte told me on the ccc camp the chip will change. |
| 15:08.22 | nibbler_de | how about having all numbers in e164 format? |
| 15:08.22 | ScaredyCat | hrrm , does that mean we wont see gps on 01 ? |
| 15:08.27 | cjb_ie | SpeedEvil: oh? i thought the hammerhead didn't work at all as it stood? |
| 15:08.35 | mwester | What binary GPS software would that be, SpeedEvil? If this is true, then OM has little negotiating power to get us the binary library for the hammerhead. |
| 15:08.42 | SpeedEvil | It works fine - with the binary - soon-to-be-released driver |
| 15:08.43 | cjb_ie | nibbler_de: nice pipe dream |
| 15:08.49 | SpeedEvil | see the mailing list |
| 15:08.56 | nibbler_de | cjb_ie: why? |
| 15:09.05 | SpeedEvil | Writchie: open-source issues? |
| 15:09.10 | nibbler_de | cjb_ie: i have 500+ contacts in my phone - all of them e164 |
| 15:09.23 | nibbler_de | for years... |
| 15:09.24 | cjb_ie | nibbler_de: not all numbers can be expressed as such. |
| 15:09.39 | cjb_ie | scroll back to about 11-12 minutes ago |
| 15:09.41 | Writchie | nibbler_de: while e164 is prefferred you will often receive numbers from the network labeled as unknown nat/intl |
| 15:09.43 | Tyrael | IT'S OFFICIAL!!!!! OOXML ISN'T A ISO STANDARD http://www.iso.org/iso/newsandmedia/pressrelease.htm?refid=Ref1070 |
| 15:09.58 | nibbler_de | cjb_ie: which ones can't? short-access-codes? they are not valid internationally anyway |
| 15:10.04 | so_solid_moo | Tyrael: Isn't an ISO standard _yet_ |
| 15:10.13 | nibbler_de | Writchie: on inbound calls? that is true |
| 15:10.26 | cjb_ie | nibbler_de: longer freephone numbers, in some countries. |
| 15:10.40 | nibbler_de | Writchie: but then you can just substitute the leading 0 with the cc you get from the gsm mcc |
| 15:10.43 | cjb_ie | but really, scroll back about 60-70 lines. |
| 15:10.48 | Tyrael | so_solid_moo: Today there was the vote at ISO |
| 15:10.59 | Writchie | nibbler_de: its not always a leading zero |
| 15:11.07 | DPThought | s/word/sword/ // sorry for my bad typing |
| 15:11.07 | so_solid_moo | Tyrael: read the Pr. there is another vote next year. |
| 15:11.08 | cjb_ie | nibbler_de: there isn't always a leading 0. sometimes it's a leading 9. sometimes it's a leading 1. sometimes there's no leading digit at all. |
| 15:11.15 | Tyrael | Yep, next year! |
| 15:11.37 | Writchie | i think the only sane way is to carry through two field, type of number and number |
| 15:11.55 | Tyrael | we have a year to prevent microsoft vote markets |
| 15:11.58 | Writchie | and prefer the international format |
| 15:11.59 | cjb_ie | Writchie: that's a sensible minimum |
| 15:12.02 | nibbler_de | cjb_ie: i rather would say then - let's ignore it and just substitute a leading zero if the user wants and make the leading character(s) user-changable |
| 15:12.25 | cjb_ie | nibbler_de: nah, it'd have to be sensitive to the country the user was in (maybe roamed to) |
| 15:12.27 | so_solid_moo | Tyrael: well, until February/March |
| 15:12.30 | Writchie | you want to be able to easily create a phonebook entry from an inbound call |
| 15:12.50 | Writchie | IIRC the simcard format includes the type of number |
| 15:13.08 | cjb_ie | nibbler_de: you don't want the user to have to change some weird entries deep in the phone menus just because he's roamed to spain (leading 9), the US (leading 1) or denmark (no leading digit) |
| 15:13.44 | nibbler_de | cjb_ie: that depends of the call origin and routing |
| 15:13.46 | cjb_ie | you also want to be able to easily create a phonebook entry from an outbound call, which is often not in E164 format. |
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| 15:14.04 | nibbler_de | cjb_ie: you can never be sure how your caller-ids will be prefixed in roaming |
| 15:14.06 | PBeck | hi |
| 15:14.11 | nibbler_de | even when you know the country you roam in |
| 15:14.19 | cjb_ie | nibbler_de: depends mostly on what network the phone is on. but if it's already in E164 there's no problem. |
| 15:14.43 | nibbler_de | cjb_ie: depends also how your telco at home handles it |
| 15:15.08 | nibbler_de | roaming is really tricky and mostly not predictable |
| 15:15.11 | Writchie | unfortunately, even when the number is a full international E.164 is is sometimes labeled as unknown national/internation |
| 15:15.32 | cjb_ie | nibbler_de: hmm, you mean if a call within home gets forwarded, it may not present as E164 when roaming? |
| 15:15.38 | CM | SpeedEvil: I really really want the GPS in my P1 to work.. |
| 15:15.50 | nibbler_de | cjb_ie: i'm not even talking about forwarding |
| 15:15.50 | cjb_ie | *within home country |
| 15:16.03 | nibbler_de | for example: |
| 15:16.05 | cjb_ie | nibbler_de: okay, give an example of what might go wrong :) |
| 15:16.31 | Writchie | we might need to store some network info related to incoming calls outisde of home area. |
| 15:17.30 | cjb_ie | i.e. "this was a type 129 received on billy-bob's telco in tennessee" ? |
| 15:17.44 | nibbler_de | a gsm operator with ss7 interconnects can see that your mobile that belongs to telco 262-07 in germany roams in network 123-45 in $foreing-country - now they have a local switch there interconnected with that network 123-45 and forward the call to there but do not change the (national) callerid - so you get a call with a local german number in $country-123 |
| 15:18.11 | nibbler_de | then again the operator decides that the channels to that country are all in use and routes it locally |
| 15:18.13 | cjb_ie | nibbler_de: isn't that exactly the example i just gave? |
| 15:18.21 | *** join/#openmoko xamindar (n=xamindar@adsl-69-239-79-217.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 15:18.22 | nibbler_de | your gsm-telco changes the number into e164 format |
| 15:18.25 | nibbler_de | as you are roaming. |
| 15:18.26 | *** join/#openmoko cga (n=cga@213-140-6-101.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 15:19.19 | nibbler_de | i'm not even talking about the f#cked up setups you come accross when you have a look at northern american telephone routing. |
| 15:19.26 | jgm | I would suggest that we do the best that we can rather than look at the corner cases and write off the whole thing. Most of the time we should be able to get a number into E164 (if it isn't already) following some basic rules, and that would be a good start |
| 15:20.03 | cjb_ie | nibbler_de: oh, i keep well away from north am phone stuff, it's head-wrecking |
| 15:20.08 | nibbler_de | ;) |
| 15:20.29 | Writchie | jgm: you need to explore all the corner cases but it doesn't mean you have to abandon the whole thing. |
| 15:21.06 | Writchie | keeping the type of number IMHO makes the most sense. |
| 15:21.41 | jgm | Writchie: can you play that back though? And also bear in mind that most synchronisation systems won't be able to handle an additional field like that... |
| 15:21.41 | cjb_ie | anyway, i need to go away and get some work done today :( but feel free to poke me here or via mail if you want any more nasty edge cases for local dialling / number parsing etc |
| 15:22.23 | DPThought | cjb_ie: *g* |
| 15:24.01 | Writchie | i'd settle for e.164 working in every case and if you need to map to a special dial plan for brazil or nl then so be it |
| 15:24.35 | Writchie | E.164 is required by the gsm specs to work |
| 15:24.56 | Writchie | so where it doesn't, this will be a mapping for a non-compliant network. |
| 15:25.33 | ScaredyCat | was it any use jgm / cjb_ie |
| 15:26.03 | nibbler_de | s/spend/spent/ |
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| 15:28.01 | Writchie | nibbler_de: be thankful you don't have to determine taxing jurisdictions for third party billed, transit calls |
| 15:28.10 | *** join/#openmoko thseiler_ (n=Thomas@gprs01.swisscom-mobile.ch) |
| 15:28.45 | nibbler_de | Writchie: brr. yup. |
| 15:28.57 | nibbler_de | i just care if the call is free of charge for me or not. |
| 15:29.24 | Writchie | its easier to just hack some network |
| 15:31.23 | nibbler_de | .oO(mindnote: add-on for the dialler app to determine the country and region of incoming calls via ss7) |
| 15:34.24 | jgm | nibbler_de: how easy is that to do? It may fit nicely as an extension so that the info would be available for other apps if needed... |
| 15:35.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 799 has been created by obri(AT)chaostreff.ch |
| 15:35.02 | cdbot2 | * * data abort while reading from SD Cards |
| 15:35.02 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=799 |
| 15:36.42 | ScaredyCat | wtf |
| 15:36.53 | nibbler_de | jgm: well - depends. we have a SOAP interface to our telco to get that information |
| 15:36.56 | ScaredyCat | xs4all just sent me a new adsl modem |
| 15:37.24 | jgm | Hmm... so that would be quite telco-dependent then and there wouldn't be a 'universal' way of obtaining the data? |
| 15:38.05 | nibbler_de | no, which is good ;) |
| 15:38.10 | jgm | (Which is a shame, it would be nice to know the location of someone calling you as well as their number, especially when they are roaming) |
| 15:38.41 | ScaredyCat | nibbler_de: not even over ss7 |
| 15:38.49 | jgm | ScaredyCat: Will take a look at that data later on and see what I can do with it, haven't had a chance yet |
| 15:38.56 | Writchie | jgm: calling numbers are easily spoofed |
| 15:39.22 | nibbler_de | ScaredyCat: if you have interconnects to all the networks - sure. |
| 15:40.06 | ScaredyCat | even if you don;t have all the networks surely those you do interconnect with *should* be passing that info |
| 15:41.02 | ScaredyCat | I know we used to get a load or stuff from colt, kpn etc... |
| 15:41.09 | nibbler_de | well - possible - if you find a network that does it for you. |
| 15:41.12 | jgm | Writchie: that is why I was thinking of using ss7 for that, as I would assume that would not be spoofed (otherwise the call would go awry, surely) |
| 15:41.43 | nibbler_de | jgm: unfortunately you can't have a mobile gsm ssp ;) |
| 15:41.51 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> GTA02 GPS (was Re: gpsd and AGPS) |
| 15:41.53 | Writchie | jgm: are you talking about a gsm network or isdn |
| 15:42.10 | ScaredyCat | ss7 is pri |
| 15:42.21 | Writchie | ss7 is not pri |
| 15:42.25 | nibbler_de | ss7 can be on anything - not necessarily pri |
| 15:42.43 | jgm | Writchie: gsm (well generic voice but gsm initially) |
| 15:42.44 | nibbler_de | ss7 can be even over gsm ;-) (as in sctp over gprs... *duck*run*) |
| 15:43.14 | jgm | I'm out of my depth in this conversation, just watching for things that could be useful (true origination of calls being one of them) |
| 15:43.17 | Writchie | upper layers maybe |
| 15:43.17 | ScaredyCat | shorry, should had said usually.. |
| 15:43.28 | ScaredyCat | shorry? |
| 15:43.54 | Writchie | ss7 packets are different even at the hardware level |
| 15:44.06 | ScaredyCat | yes, I kown |
| 15:44.08 | Writchie | but i'm reaching back a couple decades here |
| 15:44.18 | ScaredyCat | mmm my keys have moved |
| 15:44.22 | nibbler_de | Writchie: well - you have mtp1/2/3, but the interesting thing are the higher-level-protocols |
| 15:44.49 | nibbler_de | such as tcap |
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| 15:45.10 | Writchie | we'll only have access to what is passed in the gsm call. |
| 15:45.24 | ScaredyCat | you'll never get the telco to pass that onto you anyway.. |
| 15:45.27 | Writchie | i don't thing we get anything back on the call proceeding messages. |
| 15:45.48 | Writchie | and then if its in the over the air, its another matter passing it up the stack to where we can read it |
| 15:45.49 | *** join/#openmoko wibbit (n=douglasf@SAGW-PRIMARY.ARC.COM) |
| 15:46.01 | Writchie | i don't even think its in the radio protocols |
| 15:46.30 | ScaredyCat | mm... my neo is unhappy |
| 15:48.33 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:ChrisLord]] [[Wish_List]] [[Wishlist:Profiles]] |
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| 15:56.26 | nice_voip | hi |
| 15:56.39 | nice_voip | can someone help me with registration? |
| 15:56.39 | aloril | Commands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (gives this link: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ ) |
| 15:56.50 | ScaredyCat | registration? |
| 15:56.53 | nice_voip | yes |
| 15:57.03 | nice_voip | if i try to send someone private msg its asking me to register |
| 15:57.09 | nice_voip | where can i register? |
| 15:57.14 | ScaredyCat | ahh with freenode ... |
| 15:57.17 | nice_voip | yup |
| 15:57.17 | SpeedEvil | nice_voip: /msg nickserv password password |
| 15:57.19 | ScaredyCat | anywere |
| 15:57.22 | SpeedEvil | Sigh. |
| 15:57.27 | nice_voip | hmmm let me try |
| 15:57.52 | ScaredyCat | SpeedEvil: didn't you get it as a gift? |
| 15:58.02 | SpeedEvil | no |
| 15:58.42 | nice_voip | i did like that "/msg nice_voip pass pas" |
| 15:58.48 | nice_voip | still same |
| 15:59.12 | xaid|work | nice_voip: do /msg nickserv help |
| 15:59.25 | nice_voip | ok |
| 15:59.48 | xaid|work | nice_voip: it'll give you more information on registeration and such. |
| 15:59.54 | ScaredyCat | /msg nickserv register yourpassword |
| 16:00.12 | ScaredyCat | then slaps SpeedEvil |
| 16:00.24 | ScaredyCat | s/slaps/slap/ |
| 16:00.26 | nice_voip | thanks guys i got it |
| 16:00.37 | nice_voip | thanks alot |
| 16:00.45 | xaid|work | you're welcome |
| 16:01.06 | ScaredyCat | unless your a spammer, then we'll hunt you down ;) |
| 16:01.28 | nice_voip | no no, actually i was trying to register for asterisk channel |
| 16:01.33 | nice_voip | but no one was responsing me |
| 16:01.43 | ScaredyCat | ahh |
| 16:01.44 | nice_voip | anyways going back |
| 16:01.48 | aloril | nice_voip: its server wide |
| 16:01.48 | nice_voip | bye |
| 16:01.51 | ScaredyCat | grump lot those |
| 16:04.45 | ScaredyCat | ooops |
| 16:07.41 | *** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85.127.114.89) |
| 16:08.21 | *** join/#openmoko ccube (n=Miranda@87.230.22.107) |
| 16:08.22 | meandtheshell | I want to take pictures with a digicam, the pics should get the current GPS coordinates plus the direction the cam points at to its metadata assigned - subsequently I want to upload the pics to my computer and then into plone which I'd like to use for blogging. The pics should then automatically show up on a map (google maps should do) as some sort of icons on the afore taken GPS cooridinates - digicam direction should also show up in the map. Where |
| 16:08.34 | *** part/#openmoko ^leo^ (n=user@r201-221-44-9.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) |
| 16:08.42 | meandtheshell | Does the Neo have a built-in cam? |
| 16:08.48 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 16:08.53 | cjb_ie | meandtheshell: truncated at 'Where' |
| 16:09.21 | meandtheshell | cjb_ie: ? |
| 16:09.34 | *** join/#openmoko alexbodn (n=alex@80.179.210.108.static.012.net.il) |
| 16:09.36 | cjb_ie | but it's easy enough to geocode photographs afterwards, given a gps log and something to correlate the timestamps. |
| 16:09.54 | cjb_ie | meandtheshell: your message got chopped at "digicam direction should also show up in the map. Where" |
| 16:10.04 | alexbodn | hi all |
| 16:10.33 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-172-048.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 16:10.43 | ScaredyCat | jgm / cjb_ie : this bit of sql might be useful too : SELECT *, LENGTH(code) FROM lookup WHERE code = left('441223233', LENGTH(code)) ORDER BY LENGTH(code) DESC LIMIT 1; |
| 16:10.53 | cjb_ie | openstreetmap has a map editing tool, josm, which will correlate photos with a gps track. |
| 16:11.10 | alexbodn | when is the public release scheduled? |
| 16:11.11 | cjb_ie | ScaredyCat: ah, to select the longest match? |
| 16:11.18 | ScaredyCat | I never understood josm... |
| 16:11.22 | meandtheshell | cjb_ie: the rest "Where can I get this package? ;-]" |
| 16:11.24 | ScaredyCat | yes cjb_ie |
| 16:11.26 | SpeedEvil | alexbodn: probably next august or so. |
| 16:11.34 | alexbodn | ;) |
| 16:11.39 | SpeedEvil | It's not going to be october. |
| 16:11.49 | alexbodn | nov? |
| 16:11.50 | cjb_ie | meandtheshell: there exist fantastically expensive cameras with gps built in |
| 16:11.59 | ScaredyCat | january 3120 |
| 16:12.14 | alexbodn | cu then ;) |
| 16:12.17 | cjb_ie | but try googling openstreetmap geocode photograph gps |
| 16:12.18 | SpeedEvil | alexbodn: there is no way it will release to end users within 6 months |
| 16:12.34 | meandtheshell | cjb_ie: will do |
| 16:12.38 | alexbodn | electronic problems? |
| 16:12.52 | SpeedEvil | The official release date is still October. |
| 16:13.09 | alexbodn | so unofficial problems :) |
| 16:13.09 | ScaredyCat | the 'core developers' seem to have other things to do |
| 16:13.16 | SpeedEvil | There is some frustration, because that is basically not going to be met, and we have no other information. |
| 16:13.21 | cjb_ie | meandtheshell: do you specifically want the pics to show up on a web page? |
| 16:13.33 | cjb_ie | you might also take a look into #osm or #geo on oftc.net |
| 16:13.57 | SpeedEvil | The core devs need to be tied down, and made to write a line of status information a week. |
| 16:14.11 | alexbodn | i'm using a dying phone just to save for an openmoko :( |
| 16:14.24 | ScaredyCat | didn't sony have a little dongle that had gps+date/time so you could match pics + location |
| 16:14.26 | *** join/#openmoko rmoravci1 (n=rmoravci@ip-89-103-152-149.karneval.cz) |
| 16:14.44 | ScaredyCat | iirc it came with software to do it for you |
| 16:14.53 | meandtheshell | well, I just thought of doing a London city walk ... and thereby getting the stuff (pics) on a map like this would be great ... that's the story behind the desire ... |
| 16:14.55 | SpeedEvil | You may or may not get GTA01 hardware soon if you order now, that again hasn't been confirmed. |
| 16:14.58 | alexbodn | yes, but they also have to work |
| 16:15.03 | ScaredyCat | SpeedEvil: they need to be tied to desks coding... |
| 16:15.16 | alexbodn | i understand them as a programmer myself |
| 16:15.19 | ScaredyCat | not err giving talks.. ahem /duck /run /hide |
| 16:15.26 | SpeedEvil | ScaredyCat: one line a week is not unreasonable. |
| 16:15.42 | SpeedEvil | alexbodn: and these are actual paid developers I'm talking about. |
| 16:15.55 | ScaredyCat | are they paid? |
| 16:16.09 | ScaredyCat | they should ge their money back... |
| 16:16.09 | SpeedEvil | The core team are as I understand it FIC employees. |
| 16:16.11 | mwester | They work for FIC now |
| 16:16.18 | *** join/#openmoko Tjikkun (n=tjikkun@82-204-54-115.dsl.bbeyond.nl) |
| 16:16.37 | alexbodn | right, so i believe they are working. unfortunately they probably see nothing to announce |
| 16:16.50 | ScaredyCat | I thought they were consultants SpeedEvil? |
| 16:16.52 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2904 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/pcf50633.patch: |
| 16:16.52 | CIA-23 | openmoko: PCF50633 driver: |
| 16:16.53 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * default state of backlight driver is now 50% brightness |
| 16:16.53 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * fix maximum brightness (0x32 instead of 0x10) |
| 16:16.57 | *** join/#openmoko pH5 (n=ph5@e178209073.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:17.12 | ScaredyCat | see comits like that ^^^ |
| 16:17.13 | mwester | "giving talks" -- yeah, I wish we would be the beneficiaries of some of the energy that goes into the talks with a 1-line status update per week... :) |
| 16:17.16 | ScaredyCat | fecking useless |
| 16:17.27 | Writchie | i don't think it is much resources as management |
| 16:17.32 | Writchie | or lack therof |
| 16:17.33 | mwester | when gsmd hangs the kernel... |
| 16:17.50 | ScaredyCat | yes.. it's a fecking phone, get the phone working fist |
| 16:17.53 | ScaredyCat | first |
| 16:18.08 | Writchie | most of them don't think of it as a phone |
| 16:18.14 | alexbodn | i won't bother. i'm crossing fingers for their success |
| 16:18.17 | Writchie | but as a miniature desktop |
| 16:18.22 | juri_ | phone? what is this phone you speak of? |
| 16:18.28 | Writchie | that happens to have a phone in it. |
| 16:18.31 | Writchie | sort of |
| 16:18.34 | Writchie | someday |
| 16:18.36 | juri_ | oh, you mean my ogg player/GPS unit? :) |
| 16:18.40 | mwester | They will be successful, it's just a question of when, and how much pain. |
| 16:18.44 | *** part/#openmoko cjb (n=cjb@pullcord.laptop.org) |
| 16:19.01 | *** join/#openmoko Kheldar (i=maiano20@arkana.iiens.net) |
| 16:19.02 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03zecke * r2905 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-feedreader2/ (ChangeLog src/main.c): |
| 16:19.02 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 2007-09-04 Holger Hans Peter Freyther <zecke@selfish.org> |
| 16:19.02 | CIA-23 | openmoko: Show the blog entry when selecting a item. This will switch |
| 16:19.02 | CIA-23 | openmoko: the page of the GtkNotebook. |
| 16:19.02 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * src/main.c: |
| 16:19.03 | CIA-23 | openmoko: (feed_selection_changed): |
| 16:19.06 | ScaredyCat | the when bit is important, if it's too far ahead, we'll all be dead |
| 16:19.06 | mwester | juri_: yours does GPS? |
| 16:19.08 | alexbodn | it's a very complex device |
| 16:19.18 | Writchie | my n770 just came in |
| 16:19.20 | juri_ | mwester: mine does nothing at the moment. |
| 16:19.25 | jgm | mwester: not necessarily, there will be a lot of competition in this area soon |
| 16:19.44 | juri_ | it sits in a box, and looks pretty, whilst i am hacking windows/linux printing using remote desktop. :/ |
| 16:19.45 | Writchie | n770 + candie bar is same volume just about as neo |
| 16:19.45 | mwester | Competition is good :-) |
| 16:19.47 | ScaredyCat | hopefully jgm |
| 16:19.56 | *** join/#openmoko ossman (n=drzeus@gateway.drzeus.cx) |
| 16:19.58 | jgm | mwester: not if you don't have something to compete with |
| 16:20.21 | *** part/#openmoko neocoretech (n=neocoret@gw.transporeon-hq.com) |
| 16:20.51 | mwester | jgm: ah, but the sudden threat of competition is what makes a leader rise up, and others rally behind said leader -- which IMO is one of the things lacking on this project. |
| 16:20.55 | ScaredyCat | it'll be competing with my nanobot supercomputer pocket edition if it takes much longer |
| 16:21.16 | Writchie | mwester: people who are not motivated by money do not fear competition. |
| 16:21.17 | lynx_ | hehe |
| 16:21.18 | alexbodn | bye friends :) |
| 16:21.22 | *** part/#openmoko alexbodn (n=alex@80.179.210.108.static.012.net.il) |
| 16:21.29 | wibbit | mwester: it's a bloody business not a race... |
| 16:21.31 | |Lynx | is it really so bad? |
| 16:21.51 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: Lipstick on a fetus |
| 16:22.00 | ScaredyCat | it's just frustrating |Lynx |
| 16:22.05 | mwester | There's not so much difference between a successful high-tech business, and a race, IMO |
| 16:22.22 | hozer | okay, even if you're not motivated by money, competition can be a big motivating factor |
| 16:22.31 | ScaredyCat | yes |
| 16:23.17 | mwester | From the impassioned comments made on the blogs by the core folk, I have to believe that they will be motivated. Perhaps they are just tired right now. |
| 16:23.19 | ScaredyCat | is you're not motivated by the money, you should at least be motivated by 'being the first' and 'doing it well' |
| 16:23.29 | wibbit | mwester: In some ways yes, but it's a lot easier to set all sorts of "finishing posts" on a race, the end point on the business is easy, the balance sheet. |
| 16:24.12 | ScaredyCat | holy crap! we got signal! |
| 16:24.22 | ScaredyCat | 4 bars |
| 16:24.49 | |Lynx | ^^ |
| 16:24.54 | Sup3rkiddo | .. |
| 16:24.55 | |Lynx | no kidding? |
| 16:24.59 | Writchie | there are going to be lots of linux phones with various degrees of openness - there is already competition. |
| 16:25.04 | ScaredyCat | we get ring! |
| 16:25.27 | SpeedEvil | In many ways the competition is irrelevant to FIC. |
| 16:25.29 | ScaredyCat | we can has talk |
| 16:25.37 | Sup3rkiddo | hello moko |
| 16:25.44 | SpeedEvil | If it succeeds, then any open OS will work for them. |
| 16:25.49 | Writchie | FIC != openmoko.com != openmoko.org |
| 16:25.55 | *** join/#openmoko jpozlovsky (n=jindra@rb5cc115.net.upc.cz) |
| 16:26.18 | SpeedEvil | I know. My point was they don't much care if it's OM, or whatever, as long as they can sell phones iwht it on |
| 16:26.28 | ScaredyCat | with real voice sounds and everything |
| 16:26.53 | Writchie | SpeedEvil: i'm sure Wang feels that way. |
| 16:27.14 | Writchie | to FIC ten thousands phones is nothing but a waste of time. |
| 16:27.16 | |Lynx | hmm |
| 16:27.20 | |Lynx | nice ScaredyCat |
| 16:27.35 | ScaredyCat | I bet it crashes on the 2nd call |
| 16:27.50 | |Lynx | i bet one beer it doesn not ^^ |
| 16:28.20 | Sup3rkiddo | mmm..b e e r |
| 16:28.32 | ScaredyCat | I owe you 1 beer |
| 16:28.40 | |Lynx | nice :9 |
| 16:28.44 | ScaredyCat | duble or quits? |
| 16:28.48 | ScaredyCat | double |
| 16:29.02 | Writchie | The economics are still such that you need to run at least 20K phones a month to make economic sense |
| 16:29.12 | Writchie | and that is small scale |
| 16:29.12 | |Lynx | double |
| 16:29.25 | |Lynx | hmm |
| 16:29.38 | ScaredyCat | suck my balls and spank me daily... |
| 16:29.40 | |Lynx | ok how may geek kids are outside ? |
| 16:29.46 | ScaredyCat | I owe you 2 beers |
| 16:29.55 | |Lynx | hmm |
| 16:29.56 | *** join/#openmoko tonyg (n=tonyg@host226.lshift.net) |
| 16:29.56 | |Lynx | ok |
| 16:30.07 | ScaredyCat | 3 calls all worked. |
| 16:30.16 | ScaredyCat | 2 x manual dial |
| 16:30.24 | |Lynx | try 3 more |
| 16:30.28 | ScaredyCat | 1 x call history |
| 16:30.41 | ScaredyCat | hey, I'm roaming, this is costing a fortune |
| 16:30.44 | *** join/#openmoko ccube (n=ccube@87.230.22.107) |
| 16:31.11 | |Lynx | or 2 5 is the number of total chaos |
| 16:31.18 | Writchie | SpeedEvil: the latest GTA02 board had to have been laid out weeks ago. |
| 16:31.22 | |Lynx | just kidding ^^ |
| 16:31.39 | Writchie | they know full well what GPS chip unless it on an FPC |
| 16:32.11 | cjb_ie | unless it was laid out dual implant, but that can waste space |
| 16:32.24 | Writchie | there were references to "changes due to unavailable of parts" a couple of months back |
| 16:32.29 | cjb_ie | and even then with bom leadtimes they'd still have had to know weeks in advance. |
| 16:32.37 | Writchie | although in these volumes that seems a bit strange |
| 16:32.53 | |Lynx | hmm |
| 16:33.08 | |Lynx | is gps working well till now? |
| 16:34.07 | ScaredyCat | no |
| 16:35.06 | ScaredyCat | caller id not passed out :( |
| 16:35.17 | |Lynx | hmm |
| 16:35.31 | |Lynx | how many calls it stands still ? |
| 16:35.38 | ScaredyCat | prolly roaming stuff../. |
| 16:35.42 | ScaredyCat | 8 calls.. |
| 16:35.45 | ScaredyCat | still going |
| 16:35.58 | cb22_ | wow, calling actually working? |
| 16:35.59 | ScaredyCat | although it seems to think outgoing calls are 'missed; |
| 16:36.02 | |Lynx | hmm sounds good |
| 16:36.04 | CM | ScaredyCat: Nice. Your own image? |
| 16:36.10 | ScaredyCat | yes... :) |
| 16:36.18 | ScaredyCat | always :P |
| 16:36.24 | CM | Hehe |
| 16:36.32 | ScaredyCat | it wasn;t happy at first... |
| 16:36.39 | ScaredyCat | crashed a couple of times |
| 16:36.44 | ScaredyCat | (panel) |
| 16:36.49 | CM | I've had problems getting the right kernel from the makefile. Seems like my modules are out fo sync |
| 16:36.50 | xkill | hmm.. i just thought.. the gta01-device once replaced through a gta2 or even gta3 makes a FINE robot-brain.. |
| 16:36.57 | CM | Yes, my panel crashes all the time too |
| 16:37.15 | CM | xkill: It does :) |
| 16:39.27 | *** join/#openmoko borg__ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21) |
| 16:39.28 | borg__ | :q! |
| 16:40.45 | ScaredyCat | schweet... calling from contacts |
| 16:40.53 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE001217b19226-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 16:42.25 | *** part/#openmoko noiddd (n=red@thievery.criticalintegration.com) |
| 16:42.35 | CM | Good mail: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-September/009997.html |
| 16:43.07 | CM | Not sure it's good news, but Harald seem to be realistic, even if mickeyl calls him pessimistic ;) |
| 16:43.34 | *** join/#openmoko miip_ (n=miip@p54A57AF4.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:43.59 | SpeedEvil | It misses off key info. |
| 16:44.13 | jgm | CM: kind-of. There is still a massive "we have all these things to do" vibe going on, whereas if they could get some of the basics working (you know, calling and the like) then the community would start to build on that. At current the community is doing little because there is little for them to start with |
| 16:44.20 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2906 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta02-core.patch: GTA02: enable pcf50633 backlight support, enable vibrator support. |
| 16:44.21 | cb22 | I would love to know why the title is Lipsick on a fetus |
| 16:44.42 | CM | jgm: That's true. I'd really want to play around with gps |
| 16:45.01 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-33.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 16:45.17 | CM | cb22: My guess is that he means OpenMoko is way too "early" to look good already |
| 16:45.34 | cb22 | ah, right |
| 16:45.47 | *** join/#openmoko ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 16:45.56 | jgm | And yet it does look quite good, a lot of work put into kinetic scrolling and other absolute essentials |
| 16:45.56 | cb22 | i still got a weird look when my friend just saw firefox's title bar :/ |
| 16:46.05 | *** join/#openmoko ynezz (n=ynezz@195.113.97.155) |
| 16:46.26 | CM | But I agree with jgm, it would be nice if the base libs worked enough for developers more interested in making applications instead of low-level libs |
| 16:47.09 | SpeedEvil | And I note the recent emails from Harald don't say if it's even concievable it will release in Oct. |
| 16:47.19 | ScaredyCat | there's an issue with building anything, and then having the rug pulled out from under you when they do somehting like shift from .1 to .2 |
| 16:47.41 | CM | SpeedEvil: If GTA02 is out in October I'll buy Duke Nukem also.. |
| 16:47.50 | SpeedEvil | A 1-line summary per dev per week... |
| 16:47.57 | ScaredyCat | if it's out in october - I'll buy it for you |
| 16:48.01 | CM | Hehe |
| 16:48.13 | wibbit | ScaredyCat: Duke Nukem has been out for yonks :) |
| 16:48.15 | ScaredyCat | duke nukem that is |
| 16:48.21 | cb22 | forever :) |
| 16:48.26 | ScaredyCat | lol |
| 16:48.27 | wibbit | ScaredyCat: Unless you mean duke nukem forever :p |
| 16:48.31 | ScaredyCat | yes |
| 16:48.36 | ScaredyCat | that's the one |
| 16:48.43 | wibbit | yup, it's been out "for like, ever" |
| 16:49.32 | ScaredyCat | they changed it's title then ;) |
| 16:50.33 | CM | Hehe.. "It is infamous for its protracted development schedule, which began in April 1997." |
| 16:50.54 | CM | I had to check exactly when they did start.. Damn, 10.5 years ago |
| 16:51.03 | CM | That's slower than OpenMoko! |
| 16:51.18 | ScaredyCat | lol |
| 16:51.21 | *** join/#openmoko mbuf (n=mbuf@gprs-ggsn6-nat.mobil.telenor.no) |
| 16:51.29 | ScaredyCat | slowomoko |
| 16:51.52 | cb22 | hmm, tactle feedback would be a nice thing to have |
| 16:52.04 | cb22 | ie, you tap the screen and it vibrates |
| 16:52.07 | ScaredyCat | like that? |
| 16:52.27 | ScaredyCat | "I'd tap that" |
| 16:52.28 | cb22 | kinda, except i havent tapped the screen yet :p |
| 16:53.11 | ScaredyCat | would get annoying if you were typing a name |
| 16:53.38 | cjb_ie | seems a bit POKE 23609 to me |
| 16:54.28 | cb22 | yes, but vibration is so much cooler then beeping |
| 16:55.38 | CM | cb22: My W660 vibrates when you move around in the menues and that's just annoying |
| 16:55.59 | cb22 | ah well |
| 16:56.02 | cb22 | each to his own |
| 16:56.27 | CM | Sure. And it's different since the buttons on the w660 have tactile feedback built in :) |
| 16:57.08 | cb22 | do you think abiword would run ok on the neo? |
| 16:57.30 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 16:59.09 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 16:59.44 | DPThought | to quiver each time you tap costs mor energy then to beep i would assume |
| 17:00.07 | cjb_ie | that sounds so... wrong |
| 17:00.08 | DPThought | moving parts -> bad |
| 17:02.29 | ScaredyCat | so that rules out beep vibrate and flash then :( |
| 17:03.09 | *** join/#openmoko dcordes (n=tsingtao@f049000163.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 17:03.20 | Stephmw | I turn off the beeps on keypress |
| 17:03.40 | Stephmw | I only want noises on errors, notifications and calls... ditto for vibrate |
| 17:03.55 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2907 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (9 files): |
| 17:03.55 | CIA-23 | openmoko: patchset reorganization, no actual code changes: |
| 17:03.55 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * merge pcf50606_fix into pcf50606 main patch |
| 17:03.55 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * merge pcf50633_fix into pcf50633 main patch |
| 17:03.55 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * merge tsl256x_fix into tsl256x main patch |
| 17:03.55 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * merge tune-touchscreen into gta01 main patch |
| 17:03.59 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * shuffle patch order around to keep the end of the patchset to patches under flux |
| 17:05.53 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2908 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta02-core.patch: merge touchscreen jitter fix from gta01 arch code into gta02 |
| 17:08.12 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 17:09.11 | *** join/#openmoko heikkit (n=chatzill@adsl-75-5-124-98.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 17:09.25 | *** join/#openmoko wansti (n=wansti@a064.apm.etc.tu-bs.de) |
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| 17:10.21 | *** part/#openmoko Tyrael (n=tyrael@213-140-6-114.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 17:10.22 | juri_ | patches are good. i'v got over 7000 lines to break into "simple patches" for the xrdp folks, however. :/ |
| 17:10.36 | *** part/#openmoko mdt (n=mdt@littlelun.emdete.de) |
| 17:10.40 | DPThought | cjb_ie: does not suprise me. *g* I had to choose from three words which all mean the same. And all sounded wrong. :) |
| 17:11.59 | *** join/#openmoko tnt_ (n=tnt@75.92-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 17:12.24 | *** part/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85.127.114.89) |
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| 17:15.14 | Writchie | SpeedEvil: how does the sirf compare with the hammerhead |
| 17:17.50 | *** join/#openmoko ilCacciatore (i=ilCaccia@151.77.119.134) |
| 17:18.32 | *** part/#openmoko ilCacciatore (i=ilCaccia@151.77.119.134) |
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| 17:20.16 | *** join/#openmoko ilCacciatore (i=ilCaccia@151.77.119.134) |
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| 17:27.50 | *** part/#openmoko ilCacciatore (i=ilCaccia@151.77.119.134) |
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| 17:33.31 | serenity | hi there |
| 17:33.52 | serenity | how can i enable my internet connection within qemu? |
| 17:34.33 | *** join/#openmoko mentax (n=mentax@88.204.194.99.metro.online.kz) |
| 17:35.10 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@87-194-105-11.bethere.co.uk) |
| 17:37.33 | edistar | hey |
| 17:37.56 | edistar | I have a feeling that the mouse is not quite right in my qemu emulation |
| 17:37.57 | serenity | ho |
| 17:38.18 | serenity | edistar: read this: http://onlinedev.blogspot.com/2007/08/calibrating-openmoko-v20072.html |
| 17:38.36 | edistar | serenity: cool, thx |
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| 17:39.59 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@betelgeuse.theinternetco.net) |
| 17:41.30 | SpeedEvil | Writchie: broad performance is similar. |
| 17:41.56 | SpeedEvil | Writchie: the low-level stuff is basically totally inacessible. |
| 17:42.04 | Writchie | bummer |
| 17:42.06 | SpeedEvil | Which means a few things are less, or not possible, |
| 17:43.03 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@84-73-66-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 17:44.15 | Writchie | SpeedEvil: is the gl chip on some kind of module? |
| 17:44.27 | *** part/#openmoko serenity (n=serenity@p5485A6DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:44.31 | *** join/#openmoko awesomo4000 (n=awesomo4@216.143.227.132) |
| 17:45.21 | SpeedEvil | Writchie: No. |
| 17:45.33 | SpeedEvil | The antenna is a seperate module - the GL chip is on the PCB |
| 17:45.45 | *** join/#openmoko ckuethe (n=ckuethe@desdemona.cns.ualberta.ca) |
| 17:45.48 | SpeedEvil | So there must be several variants of GTA02 |
| 17:45.57 | Writchie | then production of GT02 hardly seems to be something ready for October |
| 17:47.52 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Quicksand]] [[Bootloader/ru]] [[OpenMoko2007.2]] [[User:Alessandro]] [[OpenMoko]] [[Main_Page]] [[FAQ/ru]] [[User:ChrisLord]] [[Main_Page/ru]] |
| 17:48.34 | *** join/#openmoko burton__ (n=burt0n`@ASte-Genev-Bois-152-1-9-44.w82-121.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 18:00.54 | dcordes | Writchie|lunch: but I need one!! |
| 18:01.35 | stefan_schmidt | SpeedEvil: Several variants of GTA02? What are you talking about? |
| 18:02.24 | hozer | ahh crud |
| 18:02.42 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2909 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/pcf50633.patch: |
| 18:02.42 | CIA-23 | openmoko: pcf50633: |
| 18:02.42 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * move initialization order to prevent irq happening before input device exists |
| 18:02.42 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * bluetooth power management for GTA02v2 |
| 18:02.42 | CIA-23 | openmoko: * properly unregister gta02 specific pm sibling devices |
| 18:02.52 | hozer | edistar: & serenity: why isn't qemu calibrated the same way the real neo is? |
| 18:03.21 | *** join/#openmoko crunchywelch (n=welch@pool-96-224-38-73.nycmny.east.verizon.net) |
| 18:03.37 | CM | hozer: I'm not sure, but maybe it's because of the screen orientation? |
| 18:04.22 | *** join/#openmoko joao (n=joao@35-165.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 18:06.00 | hozer | can all of you take a look at !bug 774 |
| 18:06.47 | CM | !ombug 774 |
| 18:06.49 | cdbot2 | * * Bug 774, Status: NEW, Created: Unknown |
| 18:06.50 | cdbot2 | * * hozer(AT)hozed.org: qemu mouse/pointer input unreliable |
| 18:06.51 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=774 |
| 18:07.30 | xaid|work | hozer: even when I calibrated the screen, I still didn't get the clicks to register correctly. i thought thats a known issue but im not a 100% sure. |
| 18:07.58 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2910 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta02-core.patch: Make sure audio driver fails gracefully on GTA02 |
| 18:08.48 | LaF0rge | stefan: GTA02v1/GTA02v2 |
| 18:09.26 | CM | LaF0rge: Nice work :) |
| 18:10.19 | zmedico | hozer: looks like you've got a duplicate of bug 736 there |
| 18:11.47 | hozer | yep |
| 18:11.48 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=rd@88.198.85.37) |
| 18:11.58 | hozer | so how the heck do I set those as duplicates? |
| 18:12.20 | stefan_schmidt | LaF0rge: hmm, from the context I thought he would refer to different final versions. Should be clear that we have prototypes before the final one. Anyway, if somebody gets this wrong I will clarify it. |
| 18:16.09 | hozer | NOTE: Psyco JIT Compiler (http://psyco.sf.net) not available. Install it to increase performance. |
| 18:16.54 | *** join/#openmoko Psi_ (n=benw@ip-58-28-158-238.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz) |
| 18:17.05 | ScaredyCat | if i install it in me will it help ? |
| 18:18.25 | CIA-23 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2911 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta02-core.patch: kernel uses printk, I should know that ;) |
| 18:20.10 | *** join/#openmoko xamindar (n=xamindar@adsl-69-239-79-217.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 18:32.13 | SpeedEvil | stefan_schmidt: I was commenting on: Laforges 'Just to clarify this: We have both GTA02 prototypes with GL/Broadcom |
| 18:32.13 | SpeedEvil | and with a a competing firmware-based AGPS solution.' |
| 18:32.25 | SpeedEvil | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-September/009994.html |
| 18:33.00 | SpeedEvil | Which I assumed to mean that there must be several hardware candidate versions for GTA02 |
| 18:33.07 | ferric | hozer: what platform are you on? |
| 18:33.40 | SpeedEvil | The released GTA02 that is |
| 18:34.08 | stefan_schmidt | SpeedEvil: Ah, that one. But the candidates don't differ that much and of course for the final version we settle for one chip. |
| 18:34.27 | stefan_schmidt | SpeedEvil: No, really one final version for GTA02 |
| 18:34.51 | SpeedEvil | I wasn't meaning there would be different models released. |
| 18:36.01 | stefan_schmidt | SpeedEvil: Fine, then I just misread you. |
| 18:36.39 | hozer | ferric: debian etch |
| 18:37.02 | ferric | hozer: should be apt-get psyco |
| 18:37.49 | hozer | it used to work.. ii python-psyco 1.5.1-3 |
| 18:37.51 | hozer | it's installed |
| 18:39.35 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (i=behdad@nat/redhat-ca/x-44ae43456ee91556) |
| 18:41.11 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" <mickey at openmoko.org> Re: Lipstick on a fetus |
| 18:41.15 | CM | ScaredyCat: I just tried your build.. Hmm.. Soso.. |
| 18:41.42 | CM | ScaredyCat: The terminal was broken, and when I tried to close it the whole gui locked up ;) |
| 18:46.34 | ferric | hozer: oh - weird. |
| 18:47.12 | *** part/#openmoko sixfeet (i=sixfeet@p5484D78C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:47.17 | *** join/#openmoko edistar_ (n=edwinloc@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 18:47.47 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 18:50.39 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@rn083002.morris.umn.edu) |
| 18:52.07 | *** join/#openmoko bmidgley2 (n=brad@c-24-2-92-215.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 18:52.22 | ferric | hozer: maybe the binary moved or something? |
| 18:53.42 | Writchie | bmidgley2: is BlueZ still glib based and do you know if plans to remove dependency on glib are still in the works? |
| 18:57.16 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548ACB04.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:57.36 | *** join/#openmoko serenity (n=serenity@p5485A6DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:58.22 | *** join/#openmoko SiO2 (n=sarge@p54B3A55F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:58.34 | serenity | i just did a "make openmoko-devel-image" to get the dev version. What must be done when it's finished? |
| 18:59.07 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (n=fredsiba@p54952EA5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:59.56 | *** part/#openmoko SiO2 (n=sarge@p54B3A55F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:00.16 | jgm | serenity: what do you want to do with it? |
| 19:00.39 | serenity | jgm: getting into it |
| 19:00.48 | jgm | On the physical 'phone or in emulation? |
| 19:00.53 | serenity | emulation |
| 19:01.01 | jgm | make flash-qemu-local |
| 19:01.03 | jgm | make run-qemu |
| 19:01.26 | serenity | ok, so i got it right |
| 19:01.34 | serenity | thanks jgm |
| 19:01.39 | *** join/#openmoko neocoretech (n=neocoret@p57A57655.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:04.06 | *** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 19:04.30 | *** join/#openmoko ozark1 (n=elineber@12.106.220.2) |
| 19:05.23 | *** join/#openmoko nox-Hand (i=johnhand@unaffiliated/nox-hand) |
| 19:07.13 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@132.213.238.4) |
| 19:07.33 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@dsl-62-220-14-162.berlikomm.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 19:11.00 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@rn083002.morris.umn.edu) |
| 19:13.10 | ScaredyCat | moo |
| 19:14.33 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@85.233.59.8.static.cablesurf.de) |
| 19:16.16 | ScaredyCat | webkit takes sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long |
| 19:16.53 | serenity | which browser(technology) will be included in openmoko? |
| 19:18.06 | zecke | solely based on magic |
| 19:20.21 | *** join/#openmoko Psi_ (n=benw@ip-58-28-158-238.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 19:20.33 | *** join/#openmoko slomo_ (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 19:20.45 | *** join/#openmoko emdel (n=emdel@host232-220-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 19:20.52 | SpeedEvil | hermetic magic, or that based on goat entrails? |
| 19:21.00 | *** join/#openmoko krau (n=cktakaha@200.184.118.132) |
| 19:21.02 | *** part/#openmoko emdel (n=emdel@host232-220-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 19:21.22 | serenity | zecke: so i will need some fairy dust |
| 19:21.33 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: did you ever get the power draw under 30mA ? |
| 19:21.48 | SpeedEvil | cw666: under 100uA |
| 19:22.02 | SpeedEvil | cw666: send modem at@poff to power it off |
| 19:22.07 | zecke | serenity: a portion of fairy dust+LSD will be shipped with GTAv03 |
| 19:22.12 | SpeedEvil | cw666: turn 'amp-mode' to 'off' |
| 19:22.54 | serenity | zecke: and an included cam to take pics of yourself in that state |
| 19:23.18 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: yeah, i need the modem on though, or else it's not a very useful phone to me |
| 19:23.26 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-172-048.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 19:23.32 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@betelgeuse.theinternetco.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 19:23.34 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: the amp mode i wonder about, i was using alsamixer there, is that all i need to do? |
| 19:23.37 | *** join/#openmoko Marcel_M (n=Marcel_M@86.59.65.236) |
| 19:23.41 | SpeedEvil | cw666: well - the wakeup on ring isn't implemented |
| 19:23.46 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (i=behdad@nat/redhat-ca/x-c9623224f4b558db) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 19:24.05 | SpeedEvil | At least not as I understand it |
| 19:24.10 | *** join/#openmoko jujun (n=JulienN@LPuteaux-151-42-19-56.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 19:24.16 | cw666 | SpeedEvil: hmm... it probably isn't, it never seemed to work |
| 19:24.24 | cw666 | i thought it was just support to poke EXTINT or something |
| 19:24.31 | cw666 | the button presses seem to wake the device |
| 19:24.55 | *** join/#openmoko sheskar (n=sheskar@ltw.loris.tv) |
| 19:25.13 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548ACB04.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:30.49 | *** join/#openmoko bitplane (n=Compaq_A@86.156.196.224) |
| 19:32.42 | *** join/#openmoko edistar (n=edwinloc@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 19:32.54 | *** part/#openmoko edistar (n=edwinloc@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 19:33.02 | bitplane | i think my neo has a hardware fault, it died without me flashing it or anything |
| 19:33.13 | SpeedEvil | died how? |
| 19:33.23 | bitplane | well, i had it plugged into my windows box |
| 19:33.34 | bitplane | and i was trying to get the usb network driver working |
| 19:33.45 | bitplane | no joy though, but i left it in charging up |
| 19:33.54 | SpeedEvil | being plugged in does not mean charging |
| 19:34.07 | SpeedEvil | it has to be enumerated as a USB device, in the default condition. |
| 19:34.08 | bitplane | after a few hours it just rebooted its self, and now it only turns on sometimes |
| 19:34.13 | bitplane | and resets its self after a while |
| 19:34.14 | *** join/#openmoko fletch (n=fletch@doener.lieferservice.cc) |
| 19:34.18 | SpeedEvil | just pugging it in without drivers won't doo it |
| 19:34.38 | bitplane | hmm so it could just be a flat battery? |
| 19:34.41 | SpeedEvil | At least - won't charge faster than it discharges |
| 19:34.42 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 19:34.48 | SpeedEvil | PM is broken at the moment. |
| 19:34.49 | Writchie | bitplane: at the present time you need a linux box |
| 19:34.49 | SpeedEvil | Well |
| 19:34.53 | SpeedEvil | not constructed |
| 19:34.57 | SpeedEvil | rather than broken |
| 19:34.58 | bitplane | yeah i have linux on my laptop |
| 19:35.01 | Writchie | bitplane: that may change in a few days |
| 19:35.13 | bitplane | im pretty sure i plugged it into my laptop (which did charge it according to the gui) |
| 19:35.43 | bitplane | i'll try that again anyway, thanks |
| 19:37.38 | bitplane | writchie, you mean we'll be able to do development in windows? |
| 19:37.43 | *** join/#openmoko edistar_ (n=edwinloc@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 19:37.52 | Writchie | bitplane: not for a long time. |
| 19:38.02 | *** part/#openmoko serenity (n=serenity@p5485A6DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:38.18 | bitplane | i'm quite new to linux, and setting up my linux install for development was too much hassle |
| 19:38.22 | Writchie | but the networking will work |
| 19:38.37 | bitplane | it would be a lot nicer if there was gcc on the phone |
| 19:38.44 | *** join/#openmoko edistar (n=edwinloc@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 19:38.47 | bitplane | then i could just ssh in and build things |
| 19:38.50 | bitplane | is that realistic? |
| 19:38.52 | Writchie | bitplane: at this point linux system is prerequisite hardware |
| 19:39.14 | Writchie | well the build takes 12 gigs of disk space. |
| 19:39.32 | Writchie | this is a cross development environment and will be for quite some time. |
| 19:39.33 | bitplane | yeah thats also a problem :/ |
| 19:39.48 | bitplane | 12 gigs is lots |
| 19:39.59 | Stephmw | it's not so bad ;) |
| 19:40.01 | Writchie | lots for linux - nothing in real life |
| 19:40.14 | Writchie | shoot, 1 360gb drive is < $100 |
| 19:40.20 | bitplane | well its lots on my 80gb laptop hard drive |
| 19:40.21 | Stephmw | most other manufacturer's codebases are >20GB |
| 19:40.26 | bitplane | which is already partitioned for windows and linux |
| 19:40.37 | bitplane | and has lots of svn repositories on both |
| 19:40.59 | Writchie | well i'll bet they don't have the kitchen sink like ours does ;) |
| 19:41.08 | Stephmw | Writchie: they sure do |
| 19:41.20 | Stephmw | Writchie: and not a drop GPLd, so it's also the reinvented wheel |
| 19:41.24 | bitplane | well windows i got all the dx sdk and all kinds of graphics tools |
| 19:41.43 | bitplane | i could just about squeeze the openmoko dev platform on my linux partition |
| 19:41.49 | bitplane | if i could get apt for suse working |
| 19:42.13 | Stephmw | bitplane: you could possibly make a loop-mounted file on the windows partition ;-) |
| 19:42.17 | Stephmw | and use it from linux |
| 19:42.45 | Writchie | better bet is probably just a usb drive. |
| 19:42.48 | bitplane | hehe no space on windows partition either :/ |
| 19:42.49 | *** join/#openmoko Pupeno (n=Pupeno@89-125-144-76.dhcp-ripwave.irishbroadband.ie) |
| 19:43.11 | bitplane | and this windows box has wikipedia running under lamp |
| 19:43.15 | Stephmw | urgh. usb is going to blow... but yeah, it's next best |
| 19:43.18 | bitplane | not much space here |
| 19:43.23 | *** join/#openmoko spliffy (n=spliffy@p54B1E81A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:43.27 | Writchie | usb2.0 is not bad |
| 19:43.35 | Writchie | or an ieee1394 |
| 19:43.43 | bitplane | hmm yeah tahts not a bad idea |
| 19:43.53 | Writchie | usb2.0 usually works even for booting out of the box |
| 19:44.18 | Writchie | if not boot is using grub from a live CD |
| 19:44.37 | Stephmw | it's just that touching lots of small files, as compilation does, is a hassle on removable media |
| 19:44.50 | Writchie | or move some of the pOrn to DVD ;) |
| 19:44.57 | Stephmw | haha |
| 19:45.27 | bitplane | haha |
| 19:47.29 | bitplane | hmm well i've got it plugged in now but it still wont turn on |
| 19:47.57 | bitplane | it charges while off right?! |
| 19:48.04 | Writchie | only at 40ma |
| 19:48.19 | Writchie | which takes a couple hours to get to where you can boot |
| 19:48.25 | bitplane | sweet |
| 19:48.32 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Quicksand]] [[Manually_using_GPRS]] [[Wishlist:Games]] |
| 19:48.37 | Writchie | but unless it enumerates it will quickly drain the battery |
| 19:48.51 | bitplane | i'll be begging for help in here again in another few hours then, hopefully ;) |
| 19:49.28 | Writchie | if you can't enumerate with a Linux box, you can expect problems. |
| 19:49.52 | Writchie | because you can't talk to the u-boot |
| 19:50.05 | bitplane | i got that far when i first got it |
| 19:50.12 | bitplane | i had it plugged in, installed some apps in user space and stuff |
| 19:50.27 | Writchie | installed from where? |
| 19:50.38 | Writchie | linux box? |
| 19:50.42 | bitplane | erm the official download site |
| 19:50.51 | bitplane | yeah from my laptop |
| 19:51.01 | Writchie | laptop running linux? |
| 19:51.04 | bitplane | yea |
| 19:51.09 | Writchie | that's fine. |
| 19:51.21 | bitplane | got the networking working and ssh and stuff |
| 19:51.26 | *** join/#openmoko mortenlysgaard (n=mortenly@ti500720a080-2275.bb.online.no) |
| 19:52.09 | Writchie | you can change the u-boot environment to add a mode where it won't timeout and will charge in so-called fast charge mode. |
| 19:52.28 | mortenlysgaard | kristian-m, Hi are you there? |
| 19:52.46 | *** join/#openmoko ufo76 (n=ufo76@host86-145-241-81.range86-145.btcentralplus.com) |
| 19:53.00 | bitplane | hmm is that safe? i didn't want to play with uboot too much since i dont have the debug board and stuff |
| 19:53.28 | Writchie | bitplane: its easy to screw up |
| 19:54.01 | Writchie | if you do a nand erase instead of nand erase rootfs then you make a brick |
| 19:54.14 | bitplane | ouch |
| 19:54.35 | Writchie | best bet is charge from you linux laptop for a while. |
| 19:54.45 | Writchie | or boot a live cd and do it from that |
| 19:55.03 | bitplane | can i check to see if its charging somehow? |
| 19:55.15 | Writchie | in a few days or weeks there will be another u-boot and hopefull well tested. |
| 19:55.47 | Writchie | without making a special cable - you need the shell and look at the values for voltage and current - see the wiki |
| 19:56.12 | bitplane | cool thanks |
| 19:57.10 | *** join/#openmoko Risto (n=christop@p508CFA7B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:00.33 | *** join/#openmoko wooKieface (n=benjamin@x1-6-00-03-2f-29-99-b9.k963.webspeed.dk) |
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| 20:12.18 | *** join/#openmoko cjb (n=cjb@pullcord.laptop.org) |
| 20:12.40 | bmidgley2 | Writchie that is a good question for #bluez (as far as I know there is new code being written that uses glib) |
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| 20:27.33 | *** join/#openmoko hhf423 (n=user@tmo-100-15.customers.d1-online.com) |
| 20:27.51 | hhf423 | moin |
| 20:28.11 | *** join/#openmoko jpozlovsky (n=jindra@rb5cc115.net.upc.cz) |
| 20:28.46 | hhf423 | say, ipkg update againsg buildhost.openmoko.org does not wort? |
| 20:33.36 | hhf423 | can anyone of you ipkg update against builthost? |
| 20:35.44 | zedstar | hhf423 it failed for me earlier |
| 20:43.44 | *** join/#openmoko bkruse (i=bkruse@nat/digium/x-3f652d2e044a2530) |
| 20:44.52 | hhf423 | zedstar: ok, so its probably still broken |
| 20:45.55 | hhf423 | can someone but the channel into conference mode? |
| 20:46.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 800 has been created by stefan(AT)openmoko.org |
| 20:46.01 | cdbot2 | * * Integrate SCM commits with bugzilla entries for closing and updating bugs |
| 20:46.02 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=800 |
| 20:46.07 | zedstar | hff423 i guess... ive done it once only on my device and tried today and it failed to connect |
| 20:46.47 | hhf423 | which error code? |
| 20:47.05 | CM | ScaredyCat: I've managed a call with voice with your image! |
| 20:47.10 | ScaredyCat | :) |
| 20:47.22 | ScaredyCat | me too :D |
| 20:47.22 | zedstar | hhff423: givus a sec ill boot it up and do it now |
| 20:47.26 | CM | ScaredyCat: Tried to get Monkey Island working too, but couldn't get past the stupid input of codes.. |
| 20:47.38 | ScaredyCat | input of codes? |
| 20:47.46 | CM | And Beneath a Steel Sky didn't work either.. How do you "use" things? |
| 20:47.52 | ScaredyCat | I has no input of codes. |
| 20:47.55 | DPThought | CM: there are hacked version available without that |
| 20:47.59 | ScaredyCat | ops |
| 20:48.04 | ScaredyCat | :P |
| 20:48.12 | CM | DPThought: I assumed so, just didn't look hard enough.. ;-) |
| 20:48.26 | CM | ScaredyCat: Anyway, what's up with the terminal on the image? |
| 20:48.33 | ScaredyCat | ? |
| 20:48.42 | ScaredyCat | xf86dgaproto_2.0.2.bb isn't building :( |
| 20:48.46 | CM | Btw, is it possible to "unload" an image from the neo to disk? |
| 20:48.54 | hhf423 | zedstar: ok, let me know when it should work |
| 20:48.54 | CM | Would be a great way to take a back up |
| 20:48.57 | *** part/#openmoko Placid (n=placid@unaffiliated/placid) |
| 20:49.09 | CM | ScaredyCat: The terminal says "vte error" or something like that |
| 20:49.11 | DPThought | Beneath a Steel Sky needs right klick. This would be more of a problem. The nokia770 build used one of the keys as modifier. worked quite well |
| 20:49.15 | CM | And I can't type into it |
| 20:49.40 | CM | DPThought: Ok. Too bad the neo doesn't have any spare keys.. |
| 20:49.43 | CM | :-/ |
| 20:49.50 | ScaredyCat | odd... works for me.... |
| 20:50.03 | hhf423 | CM: you talking about openmoko-terminal2? |
| 20:50.18 | ScaredyCat | mrxvt ? |
| 20:50.21 | zedstar | hhf423: im getting wget: server returned error 404: HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found errors |
| 20:50.35 | ScaredyCat | checked the url zedstar ? |
| 20:50.39 | DPThought | CM: absolutely! one simple modifier key would have improved the ui |
| 20:50.53 | ScaredyCat | is the server down (yet) again |
| 20:50.57 | CM | DPThought: Yes, 2 is not enough! |
| 20:51.00 | hhf423 | zedstar: yeah, same here |
| 20:51.11 | CM | hhf423: Yes, but in a version from yesterday |
| 20:51.12 | DPThought | CM: maye you can hijack the home key. |
| 20:51.25 | ScaredyCat | CM : click use then the object then the target |
| 20:51.38 | zedstar | ive not checked the url |
| 20:52.01 | CM | Hmm.. |
| 20:52.27 | hhf423 | CM: the version from yesterday is better than from the day before but still does not really work |
| 20:52.49 | CM | hhf423: I need to get my routing working so I can use ipkg update |
| 20:52.54 | ScaredyCat | on my images hhf423? |
| 20:53.28 | DPThought | CM: same problem here :) |
| 20:53.36 | hhf423 | CM: i hoped that it would maybe work today but now buildhost is broken |
| 20:53.38 | DPThought | CM: did not update for weeks |
| 20:53.42 | *** join/#openmoko webjames (n=james@82-32-146-127.cable.ubr01.nail.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 20:53.57 | hhf423 | ScaredyCat: no, buildhost images |
| 20:53.58 | zedstar | hhf423 it worked for yesterday i think i did it |
| 20:54.33 | ScaredyCat | all hat money on new servers... :P |
| 20:54.36 | ScaredyCat | that |
| 20:54.49 | CM | ScaredyCat: Your image starts the terminal, but it doesn't work ;) |
| 20:54.56 | hhf423 | zedstar: yes buildhost was working yeterday |
| 20:55.39 | *** join/#openmoko Husare (n=AD@stgt-590ef73f.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 20:55.54 | CM | ScaredyCat: :P |
| 20:56.03 | CM | I'll give it another try.. |
| 20:56.47 | CM | ScaredyCat: Says *** VTE ***: Failed to load termi... |
| 20:57.04 | ScaredyCat | which one are you using |
| 20:57.07 | hhf423 | someone call the manager on duty for buildhost and open a severity one ticket! |
| 20:57.20 | ScaredyCat | the one in the 'applications' list? |
| 20:57.32 | CM | ScaredyCat: Yes |
| 20:57.37 | CM | It's borked? |
| 20:58.06 | ScaredyCat | i'm using it now |
| 20:58.15 | hhf423 | critical production system down, multiple user/customers affected! |
| 20:58.44 | hhf423 | CM: ScaredyCat, it is borked by default |
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| 20:59.20 | *** join/#openmoko Henrikw (n=henrik@51.84-48-54.nextgentel.com) |
| 20:59.27 | CM | ScaredyCat: Weird.. Have you done some ipkg update or so? |
| 20:59.35 | CM | I haven't changed anything to the image |
| 21:04.10 | Elrond | So what's up with buildhost again? |
| 21:05.25 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@betelgeuse.theinternetco.net) |
| 21:06.25 | ScaredyCat | no no updates... I flash |
| 21:06.32 | ScaredyCat | mmm.... |
| 21:06.38 | ScaredyCat | I'll have a play |
| 21:06.49 | ScaredyCat | since I can't build again... |
| 21:06.54 | ScaredyCat | *sigh* |
| 21:08.36 | *** join/#openmoko ccube (n=ccube@87.230.22.107) |
| 21:10.23 | *** join/#openmoko MeTa (n=khmhm@3e70d21b.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 21:11.19 | ScaredyCat | u suser you didn't add or remove anything CM? |
| 21:11.23 | ScaredyCat | u sure |
| 21:12.07 | hhf423 | someone please let me know when ipkg update works again with buildhost .openmoko.org |
| 21:12.59 | CM | ScaredyCat: Why can't you build btw? |
| 21:13.03 | CM | I'm building right now |
| 21:13.22 | ScaredyCat | it wont work because there are no packages on buildhost.openmoko.org |
| 21:13.57 | ScaredyCat | Running task 3259 of 4577 |
| 21:14.00 | CM | Ah, ok. I started 2h ago and haven't noticed any problems yet since I haven't cleaned out my source dir |
| 21:14.11 | ScaredyCat | is where it gets to.. then |
| 21:14.22 | ScaredyCat | xf86dgaproto_2.0.2.bb isn't building :( |
| 21:14.52 | ScaredyCat | unles it's using http://buildhost.openmoko.org/snapshots/2007.08/ipk/ |
| 21:15.41 | ScaredyCat | it part does that task then gives : |
| 21:15.42 | ScaredyCat | ERROR: Exception:<type 'exceptions.IOError'> Message:[Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/home/moko/newBuild/build/tmp/work/armv4t-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/xf86dgaproto-1_2.0.2-r1/install/xf86dgaproto-dbg.lock' |
| 21:15.51 | *** join/#openmoko Cap_J_L_Picard (n=ewanm89@86.157.140.236) |
| 21:17.37 | ScaredyCat | this is the joy of using a dev system to build a dev system... |
| 21:17.59 | *** join/#openmoko dietricha (n=dietrich@c-71-236-150-155.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 21:17.59 | ScaredyCat | ~blame Elrond for everything |
| 21:18.00 | apt | ACTION blames daMaestro and perhaps Elrond for everything and the end of the world as we know it |
| 21:19.15 | hhf423 | ;-) |
| 21:20.47 | *** join/#openmoko woglinde (i=woglinde@e178072198.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 21:20.53 | quicksand | Here's a treat for all you RPN calculator lovers out there: Free42 running (beautifully!) on my Neo. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Quicksand |
| 21:21.26 | Elrond | ~blame ScaredyCat for blaming innocent elves |
| 21:21.27 | apt | ACTION blames Tjikkun and perhaps ScaredyCat for blaming innocent elves and all the evil in the world |
| 21:21.49 | *** join/#openmoko mortenlysgaard (n=mortenly@ti500720a080-2275.bb.online.no) |
| 21:22.59 | *** join/#openmoko mortenlysgaard (n=mortenly@ti500720a080-2275.bb.online.no) |
| 21:23.31 | mortenlysgaard | Hi, I've got this problem with qemu: "XDM authorization key matches an existing client!Could not initialize SDL - exiting" What to do? |
| 21:24.31 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@cpc2-darl3-0-0-cust237.midd.cable.ntl.com) |
| 21:24.48 | daMaestro | lol |
| 21:24.52 | daMaestro | apt just doesn't like me |
| 21:25.43 | Elrond | ~blame xdm for just it |
| 21:25.44 | apt | ACTION blames Stephmw and perhaps xdm for just it and all the evil in the world |
| 21:26.01 | Elrond | apt used to have more funny phrases. |
| 21:26.39 | ScaredyCat | ~lart ~blame |
| 21:26.39 | apt | takes ~blame to the vet for a "special" visit |
| 21:27.01 | ScaredyCat | CM: got past it ? |
| 21:27.05 | quicksand | Haha |
| 21:32.28 | mortenlysgaard | Ah.. qemu hates me |
| 21:32.40 | mortenlysgaard | I get "Could not initialize SDL - exiting" |
| 21:34.05 | Writchie | build borked again! |
| 21:34.12 | Elrond | ~lart apt |
| 21:34.12 | apt | forces elrond to use Outlook Express |
| 21:35.17 | ScaredyCat | xf86dgaproto Writchie? |
| 21:35.57 | Writchie | ScaredyCat: do_package_ipk |
| 21:37.32 | *** part/#openmoko hhf423 (n=user@tmo-100-15.customers.d1-online.com) |
| 21:39.31 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@p508DB91A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 21:40.21 | CM | ScaredyCat: Past xf86dgaproto? |
| 21:40.32 | ScaredyCat | you? yes? |
| 21:40.40 | CM | No, that was the first one to fail, and after that a lot of the x libs failed |
| 21:40.47 | *** join/#openmoko aking (n=zilt@207.210.78.49) |
| 21:40.51 | CM | As well as openssh, libpcap and so on.. |
| 21:41.12 | CM | I asked in #oe and was told to remove build/temp.. |
| 21:41.31 | ScaredyCat | you're || building? |
| 21:42.01 | CM | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:42.20 | ScaredyCat | build/tmp you mean |
| 21:42.23 | CM | Was a lot of SCR_REV changes in oe today, and some update to glibc |
| 21:42.30 | CM | ScaredyCat: Yes, sorry |
| 21:42.34 | CM | A bit tired now ;) |
| 21:42.48 | ScaredyCat | me too, |
| 21:42.59 | ScaredyCat | that's another full rebuild then.. |
| 21:43.04 | ScaredyCat | fecking retarded |
| 21:43.20 | ScaredyCat | i bet half of this shit isn;t even needed |
| 21:44.08 | CM | I agree :-/ |
| 21:44.22 | *** join/#openmoko infernix (i=nix@unaffiliated/infernix) |
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| 21:48.12 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Quicksand]] |
| 21:48.53 | |Lynx | and how may calls the gsmd stands ScaredyCat |
| 21:52.42 | *** join/#openmoko psymin (n=psymin@smtpstatic.blackfoot.net) |
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| 21:53.32 | thomasg_ | somebody an idea about that (gcc-cross-initial): http://rafb.net/p/geDM4975.html ? |
| 22:00.23 | *** join/#openmoko ericthefish (n=ivan@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 22:02.21 | rwhitby | morning |
| 22:02.45 | xaid|work | morning |
| 22:05.54 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__22 (i=disguy__@gateway/tor/x-bfcf592ab0dc4561) |
| 22:06.18 | *** join/#openmoko bedboi (n=8118f997@xen.linuxtrent.it) |
| 22:06.20 | bedboi | hi all |
| 22:06.35 | quicksand | rwhitby: you might want to go right back to bed -- there's much SRCREV-related griping 'round these parts. |
| 22:06.48 | quicksand | Well, griping of some kind in any event. :) |
| 22:07.57 | *** join/#openmoko mindCrime__ (n=chatzill@cpe-065-190-188-124.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 22:10.05 | rwhitby | quicksand: I'm immune to griping |
| 22:10.34 | quicksand | rwhitby: That will serve you well. |
| 22:10.35 | *** join/#openmoko El_Salvador[Away (n=Brescia@adsl-59-177.38-151.net24.it) |
| 22:11.16 | rwhitby | srcrev is overall a very good thing. it will stop the daily rebuilds of all the svn recipes |
| 22:11.34 | rwhitby | it will require a rebuild of everything once all the srcrevs are in. |
| 22:11.56 | quicksand | Yes -- there will be some growing pains, though. |
| 22:14.41 | *** join/#openmoko drath_ (i=vmaster@p5B07FF92.dip.t-dialin.net) |
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| 22:19.08 | greggypoo | is there a gps driver available at all yet? |
| 22:19.49 | SpeedEvil | The GPS binary has not been released. 'real soon now' apparantly. |
| 22:19.57 | greggypoo | oh well. thanks speedevil. |
| 22:21.57 | *** part/#openmoko ozark1 (n=elineber@12.106.220.2) |
| 22:21.59 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@gwfm4-3-0-240.802.cz) |
| 22:22.08 | *** part/#openmoko Marcel_M (n=Marcel_M@86.59.65.236) |
| 22:23.32 | bedboi | 1zillion dollar quesiton: so when the GTA02 will be ready? |
| 22:23.57 | xkr47 | $0.0001 answer: on time |
| 22:24.00 | xkr47 | ;) |
| 22:24.21 | bedboi | what time |
| 22:24.22 | bedboi | :) |
| 22:24.41 | SpeedEvil | I'm betting on before 2973. |
| 22:24.42 | *** join/#openmoko satadru (n=satadru@cpe-69-201-133-23.nyc.res.rr.com) |
| 22:24.45 | mjr | daylight savings time |
| 22:25.31 | rwhitby | with a P0 release to selected devs before that |
| 22:26.03 | rwhitby | I hope I'm proven wrong, and it comes earlier. |
| 22:28.03 | *** join/#openmoko BlackBsd (n=brian@72.168.193.117) |
| 22:28.20 | *** join/#openmoko ufo76_ (n=ufo76@host81-153-253-60.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 22:32.48 | psymin | I believe the wiki says GTA02 for Oct .. but that was mentioned a while ago .. |
| 22:33.40 | psymin | I'm *hoping* that is the case :) |
| 22:36.33 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 22:52.47 | rwhitby | psymin: don't hold your breath. for an october mass market release, the hardware must be frozen about now (going on past timeframes for manufacture, shipping, customs, order fulfillment, shipping, etc |
| 22:53.01 | *** part/#openmoko quicksand (n=cwixon@63.81.161.120) |
| 22:53.29 | psymin | rwhitby, Thanks for the dose of realism |
| 23:04.12 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@124-171-198-246.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 23:05.28 | Writchie | psymin: what does "mass market" mean in the context that software is half a year from being anything near mass market? |
| 23:06.14 | Writchie | I think GTA02 is going to be another P1 release just with different hardware - and that is probably as it should be. |
| 23:06.46 | cesarb | hi all |
| 23:07.57 | Writchie|dinner | cesarb: would like to chat a bit when I get back if you'll be around? |
| 23:08.28 | cesarb | sure |
| 23:08.49 | cesarb | (aka "look what I started!") |
| 23:09.19 | Elrond | cesarb - What did you start? |
| 23:09.33 | cesarb | Elrond: the crazy number format discussion |
| 23:10.02 | cesarb | Elrond: it started this morning with someone else saying something about a random idea of making the Neo play DTMF tones to dial landline phones |
| 23:10.22 | Elrond | *G* |
| 23:10.24 | Elrond | Nice idea. |
| 23:10.34 | cesarb | Elrond: but complaining that since DTMF doesn't have the + prefix, it would need to know more details about prefixes and so on |
| 23:10.37 | awesomo4000 | hey is anyone working on a non X11 text-based ascii art interface for using the neo ? |
| 23:10.51 | cesarb | Elrond: I pitched in to say "no problem, we already need that for cell calls, + prefix doesn't work here" |
| 23:11.18 | cesarb | Elrond: and it started a multi-hour discussion on numbering plans around the world ;-) |
| 23:12.04 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 23:12.08 | Elrond | That's fun anyway. |
| 23:12.18 | Elrond | cesarb - Where do you live, that "+" does not work in GSM? |
| 23:12.23 | cesarb | Elrond: brazil |
| 23:12.34 | cesarb | Elrond: and at least it doesn't work on mine... |
| 23:12.41 | cesarb | Elrond: gives a prerecorded error message |
| 23:12.58 | Elrond | So what's the int-prefix for you? 00? |
| 23:13.14 | cesarb | Elrond: probably because you always have to add the carrier selection code, and you can't do that in the international format |
| 23:13.24 | cesarb | Elrond: 00, but it doesn't matter since it's a local call |
| 23:13.56 | cesarb | Elrond: background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_numbers_in_Brazil and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Carrier_Selection_Code |
| 23:14.12 | *** join/#openmoko Akuma (n=kvirc@modemcable179.209-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 23:14.43 | Akuma | hello, is there any specific date for the realease of the GTA02? |
| 23:14.43 | aloril | Akuma: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 23:15.16 | Akuma | or all that is known is that it'll come out in october? |
| 23:18.08 | SpeedEvil | October is the only word we have. |
| 23:18.20 | SpeedEvil | It will _not_ if it really does - be end user ready |
| 23:18.29 | SpeedEvil | it's basically not a functional phone at the moment. |
| 23:20.46 | Akuma | I see, so GTA02 won't really be ready for use despite the info on the wiki? |
| 23:21.35 | SpeedEvil | The problem is that the core team has not clarified stuff. |
| 23:21.39 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__22 (i=disguy__@gateway/tor/x-8492be7e642cafee) |
| 23:21.54 | Akuma | uh? |
| 23:22.05 | SpeedEvil | Oh. |
| 23:22.10 | Akuma | lol |
| 23:22.20 | SpeedEvil | no, there is no end-user suitable software yet. |
| 23:22.31 | Akuma | okok |
| 23:22.34 | SpeedEvil | It's not utterly inconcievable it might work as a basic phone in oct |
| 23:23.02 | SpeedEvil | At the moment, for example, you can't turn on the phone part, and use the dialer |
| 23:23.31 | SpeedEvil | It works if you turn on the modem manually - but... |
| 23:23.53 | *** join/#openmoko ufo76 (n=ufo76@host81-155-23-189.range81-155.btcentralplus.com) |
| 23:24.27 | Akuma | I see, well it's a great project nonetheless :) |
| 23:24.45 | Akuma | hopefully I'll be able to get myself one as soon as they get it working |
| 23:25.02 | Akuma | I'm interested in the developer edition, I wouldn't mind playing around with it |
| 23:25.31 | Elrond | cesarb - Ahh. I'll read on wikipedia tomorrow. |
| 23:25.32 | Akuma | I didn't really want to get the GTA01 for lack of WiFi |
| 23:27.07 | cesarb | Akuma: hey, at least it already has bluetooth |
| 23:27.16 | cesarb | Akuma: the very first ones didn't have bluetooth |
| 23:27.26 | SpeedEvil | But can't wake on bluetooth. :/ |
| 23:27.57 | Akuma | guessing it'll take some more work on software to get everything to work neatly |
| 23:28.05 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: weren't you guys trying to find out a marvelously crazy way of making it wake up after all, with the minimal amount of power comsumption? ;-) |
| 23:28.40 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: (involving evil "sector 0" hacks on uboot and timer-based wakeup on slow modes or some crazy things like that IIRC) |
| 23:29.15 | *** join/#openmoko minthome (n=mintee@c-68-45-231-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 23:30.09 | minthome | i'm currently building the lastest 2007.2 release. It's been a few weeks since I've updated the build. Anything to look forward to? Makeing calls yet? |
| 23:30.21 | hozer | what is the issue with bluetooth wakeup? |
| 23:30.36 | cesarb | minthome: you can look forward to build breakage due to a new gcc release |
| 23:30.45 | minthome | lul, yay! |
| 23:30.59 | cesarb | hozer: the wake outputs from the bluetooth chip doesn't go anywhere |
| 23:31.08 | cesarb | hozer: anywhere that can wake up the CPU at least |
| 23:31.23 | cesarb | minthome: if you get the build breakage, you'll have to clean the build and restart from scratch |
| 23:31.45 | cesarb | minthome: or at least that's what I've been telling people to do, so far without any complaints that it didn't fix |
| 23:31.57 | cesarb | s/didn't fix/didn't fix that issue/ |
| 23:32.05 | minthome | I just ran, make update-makefile && make setup update openmoko-devel-image |
| 23:32.11 | minthome | so we'll see eh |
| 23:32.12 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: yes - in principle. |
| 23:32.14 | *** join/#openmoko miip (n=miip@p54A57AF4.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 23:32.22 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: that's going to be more time. |
| 23:32.47 | minthome | why did apt correct you? |
| 23:32.54 | cesarb | minthome: because I asked it to |
| 23:33.03 | cesarb | minthome: see the s/// command I used? |
| 23:33.05 | minthome | ah, heh, didn't see that |
| 23:33.07 | SpeedEvil | s/more/greater/ |
| 23:33.07 | hozer | is there a way to get bitbake to remove old build dirs, but not current stuff? |
| 23:33.19 | cesarb | urgh, now apt's just being silly :P |
| 23:33.44 | cesarb | ah, I didn't see it was speedevil who asked to be corrected this time :D |
| 23:33.55 | cesarb | hozer: I made one yesterday |
| 23:34.03 | cesarb | hozer: hacky, but at least it's something |
| 23:34.11 | minthome | is the wiki down atm? |
| 23:34.33 | Akuma | minthome: I'm on it, seems to work fine... |
| 23:34.33 | cesarb | hozer: http://pastebin.ca/680544 |
| 23:34.56 | cesarb | hozer: it can clean the annoying +svn things for a specific date, and also the generated images for a specific date |
| 23:34.58 | SpeedEvil | >10s response minthome |
| 23:35.00 | minthome | Akuma, not coming up for me |
| 23:35.10 | SpeedEvil | >30s |
| 23:35.17 | minthome | yeah, it's not resolving |
| 23:35.18 | minthome | grr |
| 23:35.36 | hozer | um.. 'make remove_work' just did this: |
| 23:35.38 | hozer | KeyError: 'do_rm_work' |
| 23:36.24 | cesarb | hw, the wiki is working fine for me... |
| 23:36.56 | cesarb | (a bit slow, but as a Wikipedia administrator, I'm used to slow wikis ;-) ) |
| 23:37.04 | *** join/#openmoko agoode (n=agoode@2001:4830:1633:0:212:3fff:fe70:6222) |
| 23:37.24 | Akuma | I have a question that may sound a tad stupid: in order to make software for the phone do I need the actual device or can I just do with the Develompente Environment? |
| 23:37.56 | minthome | oh, wait, it did resolve (i first pinged wiki.openmoko.com), but http request... do'h there it came up |
| 23:37.58 | cesarb | Akuma: development enviroment (oe, bitbake) |
| 23:38.07 | Akuma | yea |
| 23:38.13 | cesarb | Akuma: you can also test a lot of things on qemu |
| 23:38.26 | cesarb | Akuma: but there are some things were it's hard to develop without a device |
| 23:38.32 | Akuma | (not familiar at all with any embedded development, just staring to learn this kind of field) |
| 23:38.34 | cesarb | Akuma: like gsmd or GPS stuff |
| 23:38.54 | cesarb | Akuma: take a look at the mokomakefile page on the wiki, it's the best starting point |
| 23:39.10 | *** join/#openmoko ufo76_ (n=ufo76@host81-132-51-143.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) |
| 23:39.14 | cesarb | Akuma: (you will need a dozen gigabytes of free disk space, and a lot of patience the first time) |
| 23:39.27 | Akuma | hahaha, I gathered that much lol |
| 23:40.01 | Writchie | cesarb: so you need to select carrier on every single call and the carrier refuses to accept number type 145 calls? |
| 23:40.07 | Akuma | another question: do I need a system solely dedicated to developing embedded? |
| 23:40.20 | Akuma | (ie. a machine only used as Dev environment) |
| 23:42.18 | cesarb | Writchie: I have to select carrier on every single non-local call (i.e., the carrier selection is needed when calling to another area code) |
| 23:42.32 | cesarb | Writchie: for local calls, I can just use the 8-digit local number |
| 23:42.53 | cesarb | Akuma: no, just a directory with lots and lots of disk space (as I said, at least a dozen gigabytes) |
| 23:43.01 | Writchie | so you need to use only "national" numbers on your SIM and roaming is then broken |
| 23:43.02 | cesarb | Akuma: USB is nice too (for plugging a neo) |
| 23:43.19 | cesarb | Akuma: needs enough memory so it won't die on some more heavy builds... |
| 23:43.28 | cesarb | Akuma: and do not forget the CPU, else it'll take forever ;-) |
| 23:43.33 | Akuma | lol |
| 23:43.42 | cesarb | Writchie: well, I've never roamed outside the country |
| 23:43.58 | Akuma | That's good to know! I'll keep on reading, thanks for the info! |
| 23:44.14 | Writchie | well if you roam without storing numbers in +xxx format you can't call from your SIM phonebook |
| 23:44.15 | cesarb | Writchie: when I'm on another area code, I have to dial 0xx21nnnnnnnn to phone home (I'm on area code 21, xx is the carrier code, I usually use 21) |
| 23:44.39 | Writchie | so you can't even use your sim phonebook in country? |
| 23:44.45 | cesarb | Writchie: but, when I'm roaming, people on area code 21 can call me without any special dialing (to them, I'm on a local number) |
| 23:45.03 | Writchie | great - a half working mobile ;) |
| 23:45.07 | *** join/#openmoko twistx_ (n=twistx@64.30.190.171) |
| 23:45.09 | cesarb | Writchie: well, I usually type the numbers from memory ;-) |
| 23:45.27 | Writchie | i can't even remember my own numbers |
| 23:45.35 | cesarb | Writchie: my phone number is mostly for numbers I don't use much, and for numbers I use a lot (the last kind on single-button speed-dial) |
| 23:46.13 | Writchie | cesarb: this seriously violates GSM spec. It's not fixable throughout because dialing number N from SIM card will never work. |
| 23:46.16 | cesarb | Writchie: I think my phone has a "prefixing" function (where you select the phone book entry, type the prefix, and dial), but never learned how to use it |
| 23:46.26 | Writchie | ah: |
| 23:46.38 | Writchie | maybe it really isn't all that broken. |
| 23:47.12 | Writchie | you guys don't have any form of carrier pre-subscription? |
| 23:47.23 | cesarb | Writchie: in fact, dialing from a mobile and from a landline on the same physical place is exactly the same way... which avoids confusions (and is easy to remember, brazil has a nice clean numbering plan) |
| 23:47.27 | *** join/#openmoko notserpe (n=eric@67.55.26.38) |
| 23:47.31 | cesarb | Writchie: what's that? |
| 23:48.10 | Writchie | in the US the dialing plan default to the "pre-subscribed" carrier but you can dial another carrer instead with 10xxx code |
| 23:48.11 | cesarb | Writchie: asking my cell carrier to use one of the interstate carriers as the default? |
| 23:48.49 | cesarb | Writchie: wouldn't work, since it would confuse parsing the numbers, unless a special magic prefix is used... and I know of none |
| 23:49.14 | cesarb | Writchie: since for instance Rio's area code is 21 and Embratel's carrier selection code is... 21 |
| 23:49.33 | Writchie | cesarb: it would have to be supplementary service code |
| 23:49.37 | cesarb | Writchie: and a phone would not be able to know when the number ended |
| 23:49.42 | cesarb | Writchie: the * or # ones? |
| 23:50.16 | Writchie | per the GSM spec, a type 145 number is always treated exactly the same anywhere. |
| 23:50.33 | Writchie | whether it is a local call or long distance or international |
| 23:50.54 | Writchie | the spec requires that these numbers be accepted and treated as local if they are indeed local |
| 23:51.45 | cesarb | Writchie: Well, dialing +5521nnnnnnnn from my phone (to get to the landline 2 meters from me) resulted in a recorded error message, while just nnnnnnnn works |
| 23:51.51 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Repositories]] [[SettingsGUI]] |
| 23:52.06 | Writchie | cesarb: on the neo |
| 23:52.47 | cesarb | "It wasn't possible to complete your call. Please, check the number and dial again." |
| 23:53.04 | Writchie | cesarb: was this on the neo from the command line? |
| 23:53.06 | minthome | where is the conf file for the RSS reader? |
| 23:53.26 | cesarb | (quick translation from portuguese... that's the normal voice message when you dial something incorrectly) |
| 23:53.46 | cesarb | Writchie: on the razr, I didn't manage to get the neo's speaker to work yet (but then I didn't try much) |
| 23:55.08 | Writchie | cesarb: first thing to do is AT+CSTA=? to get supported types |
| 23:55.45 | Writchie | cesarb: after registration with the network. |
| 23:56.16 | cesarb | Writchie: well, first thing is make gsmd behave (I always have to kill it and run by hand) |
| 23:56.49 | Writchie | oh i forgot, your cu not working. |
| 23:58.04 | minthome | i just wanna add a few more RSS feeds to the feedreader, and sadly, without `locate` I don't know where to look |
| 23:59.05 | cesarb | Writchie: cu doesn't work, but libgsmd -m atcmd does |
| 23:59.18 | cesarb | Writchie: I played with %EM a bit these days |
| 23:59.28 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 23:59.32 | Writchie | ok = what does AT+CSTA=? report after registration |
| 23:59.55 | cesarb | Writchie: still waiting to see if the GUI appears or it locked up again |