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| 00:08.07 | *** part/#openmoko malsyned (n=dpl@c-71-234-204-128.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) |
| 00:08.38 | TimRiker | daMaestro: seen pics of the nokia n95? that kind of slide display is cool imho. |
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| 00:10.09 | daMaestro | i have not |
| 00:10.16 | daMaestro | i'll look after i get done stuffing my face |
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| 00:13.02 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 637 has been created by gronslet(AT)gmail.com |
| 00:13.03 | cdbot2 | * * MokoMakefile: Build fails: "tic: symbol lookup |
| 00:13.05 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=637 |
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| 00:17.23 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Canberra]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[Category:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Canberra]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Toulouse]] [[User:Micktaiwan]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Chicago]] |
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| 00:56.06 | Jason1 | [rt.internal.openmoko.org #1820] Your OpenMoko direct order |
| 00:56.22 | Jason1 | NEW MAIL FROM Request Tracker - JUST RECEIVED |
| 00:56.58 | Jason1 | Dear Valued Customer, |
| 00:56.58 | Jason1 | since there has been some misunderstanding, we just want you to confirm |
| 00:56.58 | Jason1 | one more time that you are aware that our products at this point in time |
| 00:56.58 | Jason1 | ARE NOT END-USER DEVICES! So please let us warn you one more time: |
| 00:56.58 | Jason1 | THIS IS A DEVELOPER RELEASE, NOT A CONSUMER PRODUCT!| |
| 00:58.03 | cesarb | Looks like they are compensating for the lack of the warning on the first day |
| 00:58.47 | *** part/#openmoko Skwid_ (n=Skwid@bas1-montreal42-1178046310.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 00:58.55 | *** join/#openmoko Jason1 (n=ws1@c-24-15-3-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 00:59.51 | Jason1 | Wierd I got booted. Anyways, I just got a second email from RT. |
| 01:00.06 | Aria | You got excess flooded. |
| 01:00.14 | Aria | But yeah, got it through the second line with caps |
| 01:00.21 | *** join/#openmoko MrFeetio (n=david@c-71-230-5-247.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 01:01.08 | Jason1 | Essentially they are wanting to validate my order with a "YES_I_DO" |
| 01:01.24 | Jason1 | I feel commited now. Wonder what a divorce will cost me :) |
| 01:02.36 | Jason1 | Anybody else get this email yet? |
| 01:03.27 | Aria | Hehe. |
| 01:03.29 | Aria | Not I |
| 01:03.30 | *** part/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@betelgeuse.theinternetco.net) |
| 01:03.41 | dataworm | How mutch device got ordered? |
| 01:04.25 | Jason1 | Just one device |
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| 01:05.52 | SpeedEvil | dataworm: in total - >1K |
| 01:06.04 | dataworm | Thanks SpeedEvil |
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| 01:07.33 | dataworm | I am waiting for the wifi version to order mine, I know in a few month I would want to buy the new one... |
| 01:07.38 | cesarb | Jason1: Looks like they are compensating for the lack of the warning on the first day |
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| 01:07.52 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@88.134.98.145) |
| 01:08.09 | cesarb | Jason1: (btw, you got booted because you pasted too fast. you have to paste one line at a time, pausing for a sec between the lines) |
| 01:08.35 | Jason1 | cesarb: Yup. It is so nice to hear from them. I sent my reply, sp I expect on Monday (or therabouts) I will get my payment/shipment email |
| 01:08.55 | Jason1 | cesarb: Yeah. Got a little excited there :) |
| 01:09.09 | cesarb | dataworm: if everyone were to wait for the wifi version, the wifi version wouldn't happen |
| 01:10.34 | dataworm | cesarb: YEa I guess :\, I was't saying to wait for wifi. |
| 01:10.35 | AntonTakk | cesarb: true, but there is no point in someone like myself (who, at most, wants to re-compile someone else's app for open moko) to buy a dev phone that could be much better used by an actual software dev |
| 01:10.58 | MrFeetio | i plan on buying gta03 |
| 01:11.22 | MrFeetio | by then there should be tons of app writen |
| 01:11.42 | MrFeetio | and i "might" have money |
| 01:12.01 | dataworm | I don't quite understand why wifi is't there alwready. Even if it would't have driver. |
| 01:12.01 | Jason1 | MrFeetio: good plan. |
| 01:12.28 | AntonTakk | I would probably be happy with most of the default apps, just modified to use etk instead of gtk :) |
| 01:13.27 | daMaestro | AntonTakk, !!! |
| 01:13.28 | daMaestro | :-) |
| 01:13.30 | daMaestro | lol |
| 01:13.37 | dataworm | GSM Data plan are too expensive over here, so It's kind of boring for me to have that kind of device without having wifi...And without the possibility to hack the wifi driver myself |
| 01:13.42 | daMaestro | did you buy gta01? |
| 01:13.49 | AntonTakk | no |
| 01:13.56 | AntonTakk | going to wait for mass market |
| 01:13.59 | daMaestro | cool |
| 01:14.06 | daMaestro | i'm planning on buying both |
| 01:14.10 | AntonTakk | but i'll probably buy the dev kit when i do get it |
| 01:14.40 | dataworm | will the dev kit be available for the mass market phone? |
| 01:14.41 | AntonTakk | more to support the project than cause I can use it thou (granted the ruggedized case looks friken awesome) ;) |
| 01:14.49 | *** part/#openmoko mdt (n=mdt@littlelun.emdete.de) |
| 01:14.53 | dataworm | I guess anwser is yes |
| 01:15.02 | daMaestro | dataworm, yes |
| 01:16.15 | *** join/#openmoko sagaci2 (n=sagacis@cpe-76-185-118-188.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 01:16.40 | daMaestro | counter? |
| 01:16.41 | aloril | (last update 2007-07-10 13:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in 4 days 10:43:19 (4.447±3.0 days) (1736;246) |
| 01:16.45 | daMaestro | grrrrr... go faster |
| 01:16.52 | daMaestro | i thought we were done with the counter ;-) |
| 01:17.01 | AntonTakk | i'd probably be working on converting the apps to etk if I could just the get mokomakefile to get past the ncurses bug |
| 01:17.07 | daMaestro | though, has anyone actually been charged? |
| 01:17.41 | daMaestro | AntonTakk, i started looking at packaging openembedded |
| 01:17.46 | *** join/#openmoko MrFeetio (n=david@c-71-230-5-247.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 01:17.54 | AntonTakk | yeah? it look doable? |
| 01:18.16 | daMaestro | yeah, all of the deps are already there |
| 01:18.23 | daMaestro | you wanna work on it now? |
| 01:18.29 | daMaestro | or at least at some point this evening? |
| 01:18.36 | AntonTakk | sure |
| 01:18.51 | daMaestro | i need a break from hacking plone/moin and revisor |
| 01:19.18 | daMaestro | err |
| 01:19.24 | daMaestro | AntonTakk, https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-July/msg00053.html |
| 01:19.37 | juri_ | i hadnt been charged, as of yesterday. |
| 01:19.42 | *** part/#openmoko sagaci2 (n=sagacis@cpe-76-185-118-188.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 01:20.03 | daMaestro | aaaannnnnddddd i just found out i'll be using att with my neo |
| 01:20.23 | daMaestro | i'm going to go with unlimited data... :-D |
| 01:20.41 | daMaestro | most prepay plans are ~$0.01/KB |
| 01:21.03 | galexande | OH MY GOD NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 01:21.12 | daMaestro | galexande, ? |
| 01:21.18 | galexande | YES_I_DO |
| 01:21.18 | galexande | ORANGE |
| 01:21.41 | AntonTakk | daMaestro: i can offer cpu muscle to throw at compiling/etc also, if needed |
| 01:22.37 | daMaestro | ok |
| 01:22.53 | *** join/#openmoko k-s (n=gustavo@20150239155.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
| 01:23.00 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: what's the cost gonna be on att? |
| 01:23.06 | AntonTakk | I just found out I'm being dragged out to my grandfather's house thou, mind if we talk on this later? |
| 01:23.15 | daMaestro | AntonTakk, sounds like a plan |
| 01:23.27 | cesarb | cool, another brazilian |
| 01:23.45 | gcb77 | galexande: did you hear something? |
| 01:23.51 | *** join/#openmoko orzo (n=joe@adsl-8-112-30.mia.bellsouth.net) |
| 01:24.01 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 01:24.05 | Jason1 | galexande: awesome! I got that email too |
| 01:24.15 | orzo | my YES_I_DO reply was not from the address they sent to.. |
| 01:24.20 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, when i know.. i'll add it to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Carriers |
| 01:24.21 | gcb77 | I just got an e-mail with no body :( |
| 01:24.32 | orzo | i accedently replied from an address where that was forwarded |
| 01:24.35 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: alright |
| 01:24.41 | Jason1 | gcb77: An automated email was sent asking to confirm or retract your order |
| 01:24.43 | orzo | I hope that wont cause a problem :/ |
| 01:24.55 | ruimoreir1 | i can almost smell my neo :) |
| 01:25.12 | gcb77 | the subject was "Your OpenMoko direct order" |
| 01:25.17 | daMaestro | noooooo i have not gotten that email |
| 01:25.17 | gcb77 | and nothing else |
| 01:25.45 | Jason1 | gcb77: It is Friday the 13th |
| 01:26.14 | daMaestro | #1964 ... i was so close to 1973 |
| 01:26.15 | gcb77 | Jason1: the date on the e-mail is Sat, 14 Jul 2007 |
| 01:26.25 | gcb77 | so I should be ok ;) |
| 01:26.40 | *** join/#openmoko sagaci1 (n=mark@cpe-76-185-118-188.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 01:26.47 | *** join/#openmoko arachnid (n=arachnid@donbot.notdot.net) |
| 01:26.59 | Jason1 | gcb77: That was close :) |
| 01:27.08 | arachnid | I just got a confirmation email checking I know it's not an end-user device |
| 01:27.14 | orzo | think if i send another reply using the right email address, i'll end up with two orders? |
| 01:27.15 | *** join/#openmoko jrockway (n=jrockway@dsl092-134-178.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 01:27.18 | Jason1 | ruimoreir1: I hope my neo doesnt smell. |
| 01:27.25 | ruimoreir1 | lol |
| 01:27.26 | ruimoreir1 | :P |
| 01:28.05 | Jason1 | CoreDump|home: LOL |
| 01:28.05 | ruimoreir1 | :) |
| 01:28.31 | ruimoreir1 | CoreDump|home: some guys have all the luck ;) |
| 01:28.46 | cesarb | rwhitby: you are one of the people who post to planet.openmoko.org, could you post some pictures of flowers or something like that? (to bump laforge's message down) |
| 01:28.46 | ben_goodger | any news on such things as GPS? |
| 01:29.11 | Aria | What sort of news are you after? |
| 01:29.17 | CoreDump|home | ruimoreir1: trust me, you don't want my "luck" |
| 01:29.24 | ben_goodger | anything, really |
| 01:29.29 | Aria | "It's there" |
| 01:29.50 | ruimoreir1 | CoreDump|home: just kidding :P |
| 01:30.14 | ben_goodger | an exciting new development of openstreetmap which means it's not grossly unsuitable for use in openmoko, or google opening their maps API for use in openmoko, or some other such thing |
| 01:30.54 | daMaestro | you can use the google maps api |
| 01:30.55 | daMaestro | sure. |
| 01:31.08 | daMaestro | not "offline"... ... but you can use it |
| 01:31.32 | Jason1 | daMaestro: I thought their was a licensing restriction on GMaps |
| 01:32.01 | arachnid | really? What sort of restriction? |
| 01:32.04 | ben_goodger | an app that links to it in a manner that isn't hideously costly in terms of bandwidth, and that has decent support for realtime display of driving directions |
| 01:32.07 | daMaestro | not when using the public API... |
| 01:32.24 | ben_goodger | additionally, I am not sure what happened to the search thing... it became really good, and then really crap |
| 01:32.29 | ben_goodger | it can't find my house any more |
| 01:32.45 | arachnid | ben_goodger: Well, you're not going to do away with the bandwidth cost as long as it's a tileserver, but driving directions ought to be doable with the google maps interface and some magic to let javascript access gps coordinates on the device (when granted permission) |
| 01:32.52 | Jason1 | arachnid: Ill see if I can find it |
| 01:32.58 | ben_goodger | mmm |
| 01:33.15 | arachnid | I'm rather skeptical about the practicality of openstreetmap for many uses |
| 01:33.18 | *** join/#openmoko Q_Continuum (n=Q@rrcs-67-52-219-78.west.biz.rr.com) |
| 01:33.26 | daMaestro | http://www.google.com/apis/maps/ |
| 01:33.40 | ben_goodger | arachnid: like so much in OSS, it's a lovely idea and totally useless |
| 01:33.44 | orzo | i never heard of openstreemap |
| 01:33.47 | arachnid | My job is writing GIS software, and I'm acutely aware just how much (100% accurate) information is required to do anything beyond drawing maps |
| 01:34.05 | arachnid | Mapping is relatively easy. Geocoding is much harder, and routing is much harder than that |
| 01:34.20 | *** part/#openmoko MrFeetio (n=david@c-71-230-5-247.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 01:34.31 | ben_goodger | routing is a simple matter of elementary path-finding algorithms, surely |
| 01:34.43 | *** join/#openmoko MrFeetio (n=david@c-71-230-5-247.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 01:34.44 | arachnid | It'd be nice if I could convince my company to release an openmoko version of the software and the maps as OSS, but I don't think that'll happen ;) |
| 01:34.53 | arachnid | ben_goodger: But in terms of the information required, it's very difficult |
| 01:35.03 | ben_goodger | hmm, yes, I suppose so |
| 01:35.17 | arachnid | You need information about things like the presence/absense of dividers down the street center, turn prohibitions, one-way information |
| 01:35.46 | ferric | did everyone get the YES_I_DO email? |
| 01:35.59 | daMaestro | ferric, i have not... yet |
| 01:36.00 | arachnid | Data that tells you that a street is dual digitised (digitised as two seperate streets), when links are 'intersection internal' (eg, it should treat a roundabout as a single intersection even though there are several physical street segments in it), and so on |
| 01:36.03 | ben_goodger | you could treat both directions separately.. |
| 01:36.18 | ben_goodger | hmm |
| 01:36.26 | arachnid | You can, but you still have to have all the relevant information to know what routes are valid and what ones aren't |
| 01:36.33 | ferric | daMaestro: what's your rt#? |
| 01:36.36 | arachnid | If any of it is inaccurate, you end up giving bad routes, too. :/ |
| 01:36.40 | ferric | daMaestro: are you using gmail? |
| 01:36.45 | ben_goodger | mmm |
| 01:36.46 | jrockway | ferric: i just got one |
| 01:36.50 | ferric | jrockway: sweet. |
| 01:37.08 | daMaestro | ferric, i just got it.. and no, i've used my own server |
| 01:37.08 | Jason1 | ferric: got mine |
| 01:37.09 | ben_goodger | but the largest issue is the one of copyrighted data |
| 01:37.24 | ferric | awesome. |
| 01:37.30 | arachnid | ben_goodger: Yeah - that's more or less what I meant. All the good data is copyrighted, and you _need_ good data. |
| 01:37.35 | ferric | i wonder if they've received way more orders than they thought they would |
| 01:37.44 | arachnid | 'course, it's copyrighted because it's incredibly expensive to generate |
| 01:37.47 | jrockway | now that i've replied YES_I_DO will the phone magically appear in my house? :) |
| 01:37.47 | aloril | jrockway: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 01:37.48 | ben_goodger | if google opened a lower-level API, they'd be fine |
| 01:37.57 | ferric | lol jr |
| 01:38.18 | arachnid | Navteq actually drive down every street in the areas they cover (all of the US and canada plus more) with trucks and people to note everything down |
| 01:38.34 | arachnid | ben_goodger: I suspect that their licensing agreements with data providers prohibit them from doing that even if they wanted to |
| 01:38.50 | ben_goodger | arachnid: most of the data here in the UK is generated by the government using plans, under crown copyright, and is licensed at ludicrous expense despite the fact that the people have already paid for it |
| 01:39.22 | arachnid | But it should be possible to create a decent mapping program for OpenMoko on top of google maps as long as we can add support for reading from the GPS to the browser's javascropt implementation |
| 01:39.30 | ben_goodger | yes |
| 01:39.39 | ben_goodger | but it would be very, very hacky |
| 01:39.53 | ben_goodger | rather like screen-scraping on mythtv |
| 01:39.53 | arachnid | ben_goodger: I don't know what it's like over there, but here (NZ) and in the US, the map data provided by the government is generally poor enough that companies make money taking it, updating and fixing it, and reselling it |
| 01:39.54 | daMaestro | grr i really don't like this message |
| 01:40.09 | arachnid | It's generally good enough for mapping and geocoding, and that's it |
| 01:40.17 | Jason1 | daMaestro: ? |
| 01:40.18 | ben_goodger | ah |
| 01:40.38 | arachnid | ben_goodger: I don't think it would be particularly hacky - a standard webapp with the addition of GPS access |
| 01:40.56 | ben_goodger | we have an incredibly detailed postcode system which works within about five yards in built-up areas, and that data is also ludicrously expensive |
| 01:40.58 | arachnid | And yeah, it's rather frustrating that we pay for mapping out of our taxes, then they charge again if you want it. :( |
| 01:41.04 | arachnid | Yeah, I can imagine. :/ |
| 01:41.05 | daMaestro | i was really hoping it would at least be able to stably make and take phone calls |
| 01:41.20 | ben_goodger | my postcode identifies my house, and one other house |
| 01:41.55 | arachnid | Impressive. :) |
| 01:41.58 | daMaestro | there are public APIs for that data |
| 01:42.11 | Jason1 | daMaestro: Of course thereare no guarantees, but i would expect that the software might mature rather quickly once the devices are "freed" from FIC |
| 01:42.14 | daMaestro | 10 digit zips *are* physical addresses |
| 01:42.26 | arachnid | I'd love to write a dedicated mapping application for OpenMoko, but I'm afraid that would be seen as a conflict of interest with my current employer |
| 01:42.27 | Aria | Except mine. |
| 01:42.31 | ben_goodger | daMaestro: yes indeed. they're available under crown copyright for thousands of pounds from the royal mail |
| 01:42.43 | arachnid | I think I can get away with writing a google-maps based one, though. :) |
| 01:42.47 | spikebike | arachnid I'm planning on a maemo mapper port if noone else does |
| 01:43.19 | ben_goodger | arachnid: does openmoko compete i your employer's market? |
| 01:43.21 | ben_goodger | *in |
| 01:44.05 | arachnid | ben_goodger: Not directly, but if I wrote one for openmoko, it would essentially be a clone of one of my employer's products |
| 01:44.28 | ben_goodger | ah, lovely |
| 01:44.42 | arachnid | And since that product is what I work on, it'd almost certainly (accidentally) contain information I gleaned from writing it |
| 01:45.04 | ben_goodger | mmm |
| 01:45.05 | arachnid | Oh well. I'm leaving there soon, with any luck, so maybe in 6 months I can write one. ;) |
| 01:45.05 | spikebike | maybe not if it was a strict port ;-) |
| 01:45.23 | ben_goodger | the trouble with google maps is that it's a blob |
| 01:45.25 | arachnid | spikebike: Then you'd have to buy it off them. And install Mono on your moko ;) |
| 01:45.39 | spikebike | heh, I meant of maemo mapper |
| 01:45.44 | spikebike | (which is free) |
| 01:45.48 | arachnid | Oh, right. :) |
| 01:46.01 | ben_goodger | all you can do is coddle it, you can't actually apply bug-fixes |
| 01:46.14 | arachnid | Where does maemo get data from? |
| 01:46.19 | arachnid | maemo mapper, rather |
| 01:46.24 | spikebike | one of 5-6 repositories |
| 01:46.29 | spikebike | some of which are even legal ;-) |
| 01:46.30 | ben_goodger | I wonder if we should post openstreetmap on /. |
| 01:46.45 | arachnid | I think it was there when they got donated all that data |
| 01:46.50 | spikebike | openstreets is the legal one |
| 01:47.01 | ben_goodger | damn |
| 01:47.12 | arachnid | (Actually, with donated data like that, it could actually be practical - now we just have to convince navteq to donate theirs ;) |
| 01:47.21 | arachnid | Only problem is, navteq's data is damn near bugfree already |
| 01:47.22 | ben_goodger | perhaps sponsored town mapping projects |
| 01:47.51 | arachnid | The other annoying thing about GIS is that the standard for storing data (Shapefiles) is too damn bulky and slow to use in a real application |
| 01:48.01 | arachnid | So everyone converts it to their own proprietary database format |
| 01:48.05 | ben_goodger | someone sponsors you a certain amount per street, and the profits go to the openstreetmap project or some cancer thingummy |
| 01:48.18 | arachnid | ben_goodger: Neat idea |
| 01:48.29 | arachnid | You'd need to teach people a fair bit about what they need to record, though |
| 01:48.36 | ben_goodger | well, yes |
| 01:48.39 | arachnid | Though I don't imagine that's much of an obstacle |
| 01:49.04 | spikebike | google maps, google sat, and 2-3 views from terra server |
| 01:49.13 | spikebike | maybe one from nasa whirlwind |
| 01:49.29 | *** join/#openmoko FourDollars (n=FourDoll@59-104-129-23.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw) |
| 01:50.00 | spikebike | in any case I'm quite fond of collecting tracks with a gps + 770 |
| 01:50.07 | ben_goodger | my trouble is that I have a lovely bike and a town suitable for mapping in one day (pop. 2.5k) and a tomtom thing |
| 01:50.13 | spikebike | or loading tracks before a drive somewhere |
| 01:51.32 | *** join/#openmoko peepsalot (n=peeps@cpe-70-112-25-110.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 01:53.11 | *** join/#openmoko soccerpirate4 (i=457982dc@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-14ff8edd807c2ddc) |
| 01:53.18 | galexande | omg, i could make it play certain songs at certain points in the ride, so every time i'm going up The Big HIll, i could be totally trained into a zen-like state of infinite familiarity :) |
| 01:54.31 | galexande | the mp3 player could be variable speed based on my velocity!! |
| 01:54.54 | ben_goodger | hmm |
| 01:55.01 | orzo | hey |
| 01:55.10 | orzo | after you reply YES_I_DO, is it supposed to respond? |
| 01:55.12 | ben_goodger | what's your country's national speed limit? |
| 01:55.19 | orzo | I got a permision denied response |
| 01:55.31 | orzo | but i sent from another email |
| 01:55.38 | orzo | so i sent from two emails |
| 01:55.54 | galexande | orzo, i hope not |
| 01:56.07 | *** join/#openmoko cibomahto (n=metsmatt@ip215.coronado-crossing.phx.ygnition.net) |
| 01:56.11 | Jason1 | orzo: I did NOT get a response to my YES_I_DO |
| 01:56.32 | Jason1 | orzo: You may now kiss the bride |
| 01:57.00 | orzo | the subject was "Message not recorded" and the body was "YES_I_DO" |
| 01:57.08 | orzo | no |
| 01:57.24 | orzo | the body was "Permision Denied\n\nYES_I_DO" |
| 01:57.45 | Jason1 | orzo: The email said that oyu must reply from from the same email that you used to order |
| 01:57.53 | orzo | oh |
| 01:57.59 | cesarb | orzo: sounds like a broken shell script |
| 01:58.12 | Jason1 | "Please note that it is important to leave the subject of the mail intact, and that your response comes from the original email that you used to make this order." |
| 01:58.21 | gcb77 | was the YES_I_DO supposed to be in the subject or the body? |
| 01:58.23 | orzo | well I didn't mean to reply from another email, it was an accident |
| 01:58.35 | cesarb | aka "we didn't implement much error handling, so do exactly as we say" |
| 01:58.36 | Jason1 | gcb77: The body. First line |
| 01:58.52 | gcb77 | Jason1: thank you... I'll try to reply again |
| 01:58.57 | orzo | actually, first line? I thought it said an "otherwise empty line" and that was the only restriction |
| 01:59.19 | Jason1 | orzo: Hmmm. You are right. |
| 01:59.39 | Jason1 | " beginning of an otherwise empty line of your response to this email." |
| 01:59.52 | orzo | well gota go |
| 02:01.09 | Jason1 | I think that email was a test. Can you imagine an end user (your grandmither) trying to figure out how to reply with all caps, and underscores, on a blank line ,etc |
| 02:01.58 | cesarb | Jason1: never attribute to malice what can be explained by being lazy and not doing any error checking in the script used to parse the email |
| 02:02.16 | Jason1 | :) true |
| 02:02.23 | *** join/#openmoko faded515__ (n=faded515@cpc3-hatf4-0-0-cust973.lutn.cable.ntl.com) |
| 02:02.52 | Jason1 | cesarb: Does FIC normally sell direct to the public? |
| 02:03.38 | cesarb | Jason1: dunno |
| 02:03.43 | cesarb | Jason1: I'd guess not |
| 02:04.43 | Jason1 | CAPTCHA? Whats that? |
| 02:04.59 | arachnid | One of those images with text in them that you have to type |
| 02:05.08 | cesarb | Jason1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAPTCHA |
| 02:05.17 | cesarb | arachnid: captcha is not always an image... |
| 02:05.19 | arachnid | Completely Automated Procedure for Telling Computers and Humans Apart |
| 02:05.20 | Jason1 | ohhhh. The verify that you are a human things :) |
| 02:05.21 | arachnid | (IIRC) |
| 02:05.35 | SpeedEvil | Turing test. |
| 02:05.40 | cesarb | In this case, they could ask something like "write a small program to calculate the factorial of a number" |
| 02:05.42 | arachnid | cesarb: Sure, but I was referring to common experience - something people are likley to recognise |
| 02:05.46 | arachnid | Heh. |
| 02:05.50 | cesarb | So muggles would not pass |
| 02:05.51 | arachnid | In what language? :P |
| 02:06.14 | *** join/#openmoko myk_ (n=chatzill@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) |
| 02:06.25 | myk_ | YES_I_DO! |
| 02:06.32 | myk_ | ;-) |
| 02:06.38 | Jason1 | myk_: Congrats |
| 02:06.46 | ben_goodger | what in god's name is this? |
| 02:06.55 | arachnid | heh |
| 02:07.06 | myk_ | hey ben_goodger |
| 02:07.47 | Jason1 | myk_: I am sorry your response is not valid. It contains invlid characters :) |
| 02:07.56 | myk_ | Jason1: ! |
| 02:08.13 | myk_ | Jason1: which ones? |
| 02:08.15 | Jason1 | myk_: Yup :). |
| 02:08.46 | Jason1 | myk_: Just kidding. Apparently the error checking on the automated email script leaves a little bit to be desired. |
| 02:08.47 | myk_ | aha! |
| 02:09.08 | myk_ | tsokay, i didn't exclaim it in the email itself |
| 02:09.31 | Jason1 | myk_: I thought about it. I was so excited to hear from them :) |
| 02:09.51 | Jason1 | myk_: I even got booted from the IRC for flooding |
| 02:10.07 | myk_ | hehe |
| 02:10.25 | myk_ | ben_goodger: this is a channel about a new open-source mobile phone |
| 02:10.33 | *** join/#openmoko tholin (n=tholin@85.8.6.155.se.wasadata.net) |
| 02:10.44 | *** join/#openmoko sagacis (n=ubuntu@cpe-76-185-118-188.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 02:11.44 | ben_goodger | yes, obviousl |
| 02:11.53 | ben_goodger | I was referring to YES_I_DO |
| 02:12.24 | ben_goodger | is it along the lines of "do you believe in fairies?", or something useful that's evaded me? |
| 02:12.39 | *** join/#openmoko jadams (n=jadams@rrcs-67-78-224-48.se.biz.rr.com) |
| 02:12.48 | Jason1 | ben_goodger: That is exactly what myk was saying :) |
| 02:12.57 | cesarb | ben_goodger: when the shop opened, it wasn't made explicit it would not be usable to non-developers |
| 02:13.03 | jadams | I bought my phone, and confirmed with the scaredy cats that I knew what I was getting into |
| 02:13.06 | Jason1 | ben_goodger: We got an email asking us to confirm our orders |
| 02:13.17 | cesarb | ben_goodger: so, they are asking people to confirm they know it's not a usable phone unless you know a lot of tech |
| 02:13.25 | ben_goodger | oh, I see. |
| 02:13.31 | cesarb | ben_goodger: and that's the exact response you have to send... |
| 02:13.37 | jadams | just give me a dialer that in some way talks gsm and I'll figure it out from there :) |
| 02:13.59 | sagacis | YES_I_DO |
| 02:14.17 | Jason1 | sagacis: awesome |
| 02:14.33 | sagacis | It's almost a buyer's remorse chicken exit |
| 02:14.43 | jadams | it is, but it's nice of them |
| 02:14.44 | Jason1 | hehe |
| 02:14.46 | sagacis | Do we need a new wiki page of the people who replied? |
| 02:14.50 | jadams | just double checking they don't screw someone over |
| 02:15.08 | sagacis | What happens if I didn't check my e-mail for a while? |
| 02:15.16 | cesarb | sagacis: it would be as useful as the "P1 future owners" one |
| 02:15.23 | cesarb | sagacis: i.e. not much... |
| 02:15.27 | Jason1 | If I put my name on one more wiki page list.... |
| 02:16.07 | Jason1 | cesarb: come on cesar. all the cool kids are doing it |
| 02:16.12 | jadams | hey mokomakefile is awesome |
| 02:16.18 | jadams | it was so easy to get the emu up on an ubuntu machine |
| 02:16.28 | jadams | one make command later, I've got a qemu window up :) |
| 02:16.31 | Jason1 | jadams: agreed |
| 02:16.41 | cesarb | jadams: even more since I've fixed it not to have to do the silly /bin/sh dance ;-) |
| 02:16.44 | sagacis | I'm installing ubuntu right now on my beefier machine |
| 02:16.52 | sagacis | Live install is cool. I can keep chatting |
| 02:16.56 | Jason1 | jadams: although I hit a few bumps in the road. To be expected though |
| 02:17.59 | sagacis | Back in a bit. Ubuntu install complete |
| 02:18.03 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Application_UI_Design_Recommendations]] [[Main_Page]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Switzerland]] [[User:C7]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_North_Texas]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] |
| 02:18.12 | *** part/#openmoko sagacis (n=ubuntu@cpe-76-185-118-188.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 02:20.54 | *** part/#openmoko freskog (n=fredrik@213-204-48-247.bredband.aland.net) |
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| 02:24.42 | *** join/#openmoko emacsen (n=serge@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/emacsen) |
| 02:24.55 | emacsen | So... what's Harold upset about? |
| 02:25.03 | emacsen | erm Harald |
| 02:26.03 | Jason1 | emacsen: AFAIK, nobody knows |
| 02:27.25 | emacsen | well... makes it hard to want to send the confirmation mail :) |
| 02:27.28 | *** join/#openmoko sagacis (n=mark@cpe-76-185-118-188.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 02:27.45 | cesarb | emacsen: probably not exactly upset... probably just worked too much |
| 02:28.00 | emacsen | see, I'd heard there's upset about access to the source |
| 02:28.15 | Aria | Really?! |
| 02:28.23 | emacsen | like, the shipping unit doesn't have the libs you'll need to talk to the GSM daemon from the gui |
| 02:28.33 | Jason1 | emacsen: Where did you get that idea? |
| 02:28.40 | emacsen | rumors :) |
| 02:28.56 | emacsen | hence coming here looking for confirmation |
| 02:29.09 | Aria | Stuff is seriously NOT DONE |
| 02:29.16 | Aria | But not through lack of openness. |
| 02:35.44 | *** join/#openmoko dkirker (n=dkirker@c-24-6-210-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 02:36.16 | *** join/#openmoko MarkTheDaemon (n=markthed@phpbb/modifications/MarkTheDaemon) |
| 02:37.01 | juri_ | yay. sign of life. |
| 02:37.13 | cesarb | juri_: ? |
| 02:37.32 | juri_ | new email sent out. |
| 02:37.46 | *** join/#openmoko kiney_ (n=kiney@p54883353.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 02:37.50 | Jason1 | juri_: YES_YOU_DO? |
| 02:37.59 | juri_ | YES_I_DO. ;) |
| 02:38.05 | Jason1 | hehe |
| 02:40.53 | juri_ | personally, i'm going to use my openmoko as a GPS for my nokia 770, along with its use as a portable ogg player. also going to port my nokia's apps over to it. at least the ones i use. :) |
| 02:41.05 | *** join/#openmoko sagacis (n=mark@cpe-76-185-118-188.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 02:41.31 | *** join/#openmoko jsgotangco (n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco) |
| 02:43.01 | Jason1 | juri_: Very cool. I have been looking forward to toying with OpenStreetMap with my device. |
| 02:43.15 | aloril | "Are there enough phones for the number of orders? Will FIC produce another GTA01 batch if needed?" |
| 02:43.20 | *** join/#openmoko MDK (n=mdk@cs181222091.pp.htv.fi) |
| 02:43.20 | aloril | "Of course. Please note that there is a lead time of four to six weeks." |
| 02:43.44 | aloril | from http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1_FAQ by HaraldWelte |
| 02:44.00 | aloril | (question that many might be thinking here) |
| 02:44.05 | Jason1 | juri_: You like your 770? In theory, you should be able to use the Neos modem for you 770 |
| 02:44.42 | aloril | "My order number is XXXX will I get a phone from the first batch?" "Unfortunately you cannot deduct this information from your order number, sorry." |
| 02:44.48 | Jason1 | the aloril bot is asking and answering its own questions now? |
| 02:44.55 | aloril | yeah, true, we can always speculate ;-) |
| 02:45.04 | *** part/#openmoko holtmann (n=holtmann@nikita.holtmann.net) |
| 02:45.33 | aloril | Jason1: hehe, no, just pasting some stuff that has been asked here and people might want to know, but yeah, better go read that FAQ for rest |
| 02:45.34 | juri_ | jason1: i like it, but the commercialware has got to go. |
| 02:46.13 | Jason1 | juri_: I have ben eye the n800, but I can only handle one new toy at a time :) |
| 02:46.51 | wizdumb | hey guys, I saw two different dates for the final version of the phone being released. one said october, one was september.. anyone know which is more accurate? |
| 02:47.12 | Jason1 | wizdumb: most liekly, neither :) |
| 02:47.34 | wizdumb | hah nice, any idea of when it MIGHT be released? |
| 02:47.36 | Jason1 | wizdumb: we were supposed to have the development version months ago |
| 02:47.58 | emacsen | did the gps issue get resolved? |
| 02:47.59 | Jason1 | wizdumb: You have apparently read everything that I have... Sep/October timeframe |
| 02:48.14 | wizdumb | so it could be until next year then realistically |
| 02:48.51 | Jason1 | wizdumb: Some people on the community list have raised doubts as to whether or not hte software will be ready in time |
| 02:48.54 | aloril | here is verification that flashing u-boot should be safer now: http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Neo1973_Phase_1&diff=11450&oldid=8342 |
| 02:49.04 | gcb77 | Is there a way to update the apps on the phone, like a central repository? |
| 02:52.00 | aloril | there are some stuff just short command away, but .. I suspect you need to prepare a bit more dirty install approaches initially, anybody know better? |
| 02:52.05 | *** part/#openmoko myk_ (n=chatzill@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) |
| 02:52.10 | *** join/#openmoko myk_ (n=chatzill@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) |
| 02:52.53 | aloril | wizdumb: latest date in announcement is October, so that is earliest time |
| 02:53.56 | wizdumb | ahh, thanks aloril |
| 02:54.08 | Jason1 | Anybosy have the link to the wiki pagethat was taking guesses at shipment dates? |
| 02:55.12 | aloril | oh, interesting: http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=SH1_FAQ&diff=11728&oldid=11679 (who is Bradpitcher?) |
| 02:57.37 | Jason1 | alohil: you got your email right? |
| 02:58.22 | aloril | yes, quite recently |
| 02:58.28 | Jason1 | Found it. Fun projection of produt delviery: |
| 02:58.28 | Jason1 | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter#Ordering_time_probability_guesses |
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| 03:00.43 | *** join/#openmoko SP-8472 (i=8472@dslb-084-056-243-080.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 03:03.45 | aloril | great thing they sent that mail out, this hopefully means less dissatisfied customers and more developers from first batch |
| 03:04.26 | cesarb | aloril: which makes me wonder how many have already been sold |
| 03:05.04 | aloril | hehe, that is quite hard to say now .. would be interesting to know how many CANCEL mails are sent |
| 03:05.56 | *** join/#openmoko BlackBsd (n=brian@72.168.193.117) |
| 03:07.30 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__ (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-d704fb993b55a9c8) |
| 03:07.39 | *** part/#openmoko MrFeetio_away (n=david@c-71-230-5-247.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 03:08.46 | aloril | or how many YES_I_DO mails and how many don't reply (I wonder if they ask again or are those postponed to batch 2 (SH2) until they answer) |
| 03:09.20 | aloril | faq |
| 03:09.20 | aloril | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) |
| 03:09.24 | Jason1 | aloril: sounds error-prone. Especially with all their system problems (they must be running Windows) |
| 03:10.27 | *** part/#openmoko emacsen (n=serge@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/emacsen) |
| 03:10.33 | Jason1 | aloril: they could always start calling people on the tele. |
| 03:10.33 | *** join/#openmoko merriam__ (n=merriam@82-133-115-120.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 03:10.58 | cesarb | Jason1: won't work well, a lot of people don't speak english |
| 03:11.13 | Jason1 | cesarb: bi-lingual support? |
| 03:11.22 | cesarb | Jason1: or are like me, who can speak english but somehow only other brazilians manage to understand it |
| 03:11.35 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 03:11.41 | anrp | well even usians have a hard time with english |
| 03:11.49 | anrp | but i chalk that up to the lack of chalk in the education system |
| 03:12.03 | Jason1 | cesarb: :) Yeah. Well now you got me scared that they didnt receive my YES_I_DO :( |
| 03:12.45 | aloril | Jason1: hmm.. at least my mail was accepted according to logs |
| 03:13.01 | Jason1 | aloril: I didnt go that far |
| 03:13.52 | summatusmentis | anrp: own-lee sum usaeeans haf difficult tiem wi' englihs langageu |
| 03:13.59 | Jason1 | sagacis: That took forever on my dualcore 2ghz |
| 03:14.20 | cesarb | by the way, "make openmoko-devel-tools" compiles nothing for me, is that normal? |
| 03:14.22 | sagacis | That's basically what I have |
| 03:14.24 | aloril | (trailing space, made sure there arent't one ;-) |
| 03:14.25 | sagacis | dual core 3g |
| 03:15.00 | *** join/#openmoko bharath (n=bharath@c-24-11-216-155.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) |
| 03:15.12 | Jason1 | sagacis: brought back nightmares of my gentoo days, LOL |
| 03:15.14 | cesarb | sagacis: a fresh openmoko-devel-image on a athlon 64 2GHz should take less than a day, so don't worry |
| 03:15.30 | cesarb | sagacis: your box is probably faster than mine ;-) |
| 03:15.52 | sagacis | Yeah, probably.... :-/ |
| 03:16.41 | sagacis | So, are we going to have compiled images available to avoid the long build time? |
| 03:17.10 | Jason1 | sagacis: you do already....qemu inages |
| 03:17.18 | aloril | guess, I don't know about cutoff, this just makes sense: anyway, anybody here that ordered before "WARNING: Developers only!" was added to https://direct.openmoko.com/ should check their mail boxes |
| 03:18.01 | cesarb | what would be cool would be a precompiled devel environment |
| 03:18.24 | anrp | making it portable across dists is likely somewhat hard |
| 03:18.25 | cesarb | complete with the cross tools and the necessary headers for the libraries |
| 03:18.34 | anrp | i recommend sidestepping the issue and shipping a qemu/virtualbox image |
| 03:18.44 | cesarb | so you could compile your own tools |
| 03:18.59 | anrp | it would be .. large, though |
| 03:19.06 | Jason1 | cesarb: someone was talking about doing a livecd... |
| 03:19.16 | sagacis | That would be kind of neat |
| 03:20.20 | *** join/#openmoko ChumleyEX (n=none@cpe-72-178-79-134.hot.res.rr.com) |
| 03:22.55 | sagacis | Think I can run "make qemu" in one terminal while making devel image in another? |
| 03:23.00 | spikebike | or maybe a xen/vmware image |
| 03:23.12 | anrp | boo unfree |
| 03:23.13 | spikebike | I'm sure a few openmoko fans would contribute to a torrent |
| 03:23.18 | anrp | not that i mind too much, just saying |
| 03:23.19 | cesarb | sagacis: no |
| 03:23.26 | sagacis | Didn't think so |
| 03:23.31 | cesarb | sagacis because "make qemu" also makes the devel image |
| 03:23.42 | anrp | racy make |
| 03:23.43 | anrp | :o |
| 03:23.47 | cesarb | hm, wait, I misremembered |
| 03:23.48 | *** join/#openmoko broedje (n=hellvis@p54B11DD3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 03:23.48 | spikebike | unfree? |
| 03:23.54 | anrp | vmware at least |
| 03:24.07 | anrp | xen is a lot to ask of someone who just wants to make an app |
| 03:24.13 | anrp | qemu is much simpler but not that fast |
| 03:24.16 | spikebike | true |
| 03:24.21 | anrp | i think virtualbox is a bit faster, and it has a gpl version |
| 03:24.23 | cesarb | sagacis: it doesn't, "make qemu" downloads and runs the official image, so you can run it together with the compilation of the local image without problems |
| 03:24.27 | spikebike | but more and more developers have a dom0 around |
| 03:24.29 | summatusmentis | s/vmware/xen/ |
| 03:24.45 | spikebike | like say me for instance ;-) |
| 03:24.57 | sagacis | That's what I was looking at |
| 03:25.07 | spikebike | having a guarenteed to work image is kinda cool, no driver issues. |
| 03:25.12 | anrp | i don't see much advantage in xen for this case |
| 03:25.27 | spikebike | oh sorry, the live cd is incopmatible with your cpu, video card, network, etc. |
| 03:25.28 | cesarb | anrp: either xen or kvm is faster |
| 03:25.48 | anrp | enough to be worth the effort for xen? |
| 03:26.03 | anrp | kvm is still unstable, although i think linux guest works fine |
| 03:26.17 | anrp | what about all the poor windows devels? |
| 03:26.26 | anrp | their only options are vmware, qemu, and virtualbox |
| 03:26.41 | spikebike | xen images can be converted to vmware and back |
| 03:26.53 | anrp | is that really a solution? ;/ |
| 03:26.53 | spikebike | and the vmware dom0 is er $0 cost (if not quite free) |
| 03:27.03 | cesarb | anrp: most of them will use vmware, and it won't be a problem for them |
| 03:27.06 | anrp | the whole point of this project is Free |
| 03:27.10 | anrp | ;o |
| 03:27.11 | spikebike | virtual appliances are becoming more common |
| 03:27.18 | cesarb | anrp: HOWEVER, they will have problems with dfu and ocd |
| 03:27.26 | spikebike | well it gives windows folks an option |
| 03:27.31 | cesarb | anrp: and usb console |
| 03:27.49 | anrp | i know qemu would work |
| 03:27.52 | anrp | for usb |
| 03:28.12 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 03:28.28 | anrp | it would even work reasonably well since windows requires an un-driver anyway |
| 03:28.31 | anrp | to enable libusb |
| 03:28.37 | anrp | so nothing else would work with it |
| 03:29.06 | anrp | s/work with it/touch it/ |
| 03:30.12 | *** join/#openmoko texel (n=june@tank.theonelab.com) |
| 03:31.25 | anrp | hm virtualbox only supports USB in the nonfree edition |
| 03:31.49 | anrp | that leaves.. qemu ~_~ |
| 03:33.47 | aloril | counter_msg (last update 2007-07-14 03:32) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in |
| 03:33.47 | aloril | aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-07-14 03:32) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in |
| 03:34.04 | aloril | no new info, just updated guesses (this weeks seems quite unlikely) |
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| 03:35.42 | aloril | thanks for Jason1, otherwise I might have forgotten to update it ;-) |
| 03:36.35 | aloril | counter |
| 03:36.35 | aloril | (last update 2007-07-14 03:32) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 3 days 20:23:25 (3.850±3.5 days) (1737;246) |
| 03:37.45 | *** join/#openmoko luke-jr|work (n=luke-jr@user-0c93tj3.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 03:37.48 | Jason1 | :) |
| 03:40.09 | aloril | counter |
| 03:40.09 | aloril | (last update 2007-07-14 03:32) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 4 days 20:19:51 (4.847±3.5 days) (1738;246) |
| 03:40.19 | aloril | (was one off ;-) |
| 03:40.52 | aloril | anyway, lower limit should now cover China time Monday too ...;-) |
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| 03:44.57 | aloril | counter_msg (last update 2007-07-14 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in |
| 03:44.57 | aloril | aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-07-14 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in |
| 03:45.30 | aloril | (just made last option (September or later) from 10% to 5%, I believe they can ship it) |
| 03:45.46 | aloril | within this and next month ;-) |
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| 03:52.57 | aloril | maybe they were too slow and are in SH2 |
| 03:53.03 | aloril | ;-) |
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| 03:56.27 | Jason1 | aloril: sounds like you are talking to yourself alot... |
| 03:56.45 | anrp | its fun |
| 03:56.52 | Jason1 | LOL |
| 03:56.58 | anrp | guarenteed audience |
| 03:57.06 | anrp | who agrees with what's said |
| 03:58.00 | patC | sorry to not be in the conversation, but im just reading trying to learn stuff from other peoples questions... |
| 03:58.02 | aloril | sometimes I get some reaction, but looks somewhat quiet now |
| 03:58.20 | patC | and wikis |
| 03:59.51 | patC | i was curious, i know the first shipping is for developers, but if i wanted to buy one for kicks, would it be easy to install a more stable release later on in october or later when the actual customer version comes out.. |
| 04:00.46 | Jason1 | patC: I dont know if I would describe the current prcess as "easy". However, once we get the device, updates will be (hopefully) fast and furious |
| 04:01.07 | Jason1 | patC: You do know that hte October release will have some better harware, right? |
| 04:01.56 | aloril | patC: you can install new rootfs/kernel every day if you want (and once you have done it once, it should be quite easy to do it again) |
| 04:02.37 | patC | cool, yea, i know that the october release has wifi, what other upgrades does it have? |
| 04:02.42 | aloril | patC: either prebuild rootfs/kernel images (easiest) or one you build yourself (at least quite time consuming currently) |
| 04:03.03 | Jason1 | patC: 2 accelerometers |
| 04:03.54 | anrp | and an actual graphics chip |
| 04:04.01 | anrp | none of this linear framebuffer business |
| 04:04.26 | Jason1 | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973:_GTA01Bv4_versus_GTA02_comparison |
| 04:05.06 | aloril | actually updating is even recommended at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1#Before_you_start |
| 04:05.48 | aloril | (binary blob == GPS binary library) |
| 04:05.51 | anrp | ... |
| 04:05.54 | anrp | it better be |
| 04:05.57 | anrp | the gps is useless otherwise |
| 04:06.00 | Jason1 | aloril: Do we know when they flashed the devices at hte factory? |
| 04:06.37 | aloril | yeah, it probably is there, but do you need to save it somewhere before update and copy back ..(would be bad if this was only option I think) |
| 04:06.45 | anrp | oh |
| 04:06.54 | anrp | i guess it's not in source control |
| 04:06.59 | anrp | so .. good point |
| 04:07.08 | patC | cool, cause i was wondering if it would be worth it to wait, or just get one now and update, but sounds like waitings better, thanks |
| 04:07.28 | aloril | Jason1: no, but it sounds like its early one and you want to update it quite soon (could be month old once you actually receive it?) |
| 04:07.44 | aloril | though I guess they could reflash it before shipping |
| 04:07.47 | anrp | has there really been heavy devel in the last month? (curious) |
| 04:08.13 | Jason1 | aloril: maybe thats what they are doing this week ??? |
| 04:08.29 | anrp | no, this week they're letting the governments do their thing |
| 04:08.36 | anrp | and slow down the process |
| 04:08.39 | anrp | i.e. shipping |
| 04:08.53 | Jason1 | anrp: I suspect those things are already sitting in CA |
| 04:09.09 | aloril | which I think means binary blob should be available from download (guess and IMHO: otherwise many will accidentally wipe it |
| 04:09.14 | anrp | depends on if the US is trying to antagonize china right now or not |
| 04:09.20 | aloril | anyway, I will backup its content before updating |
| 04:09.35 | anrp | i had an equipment shipment from asia get held up in customs for over half a month because the US was trying to make a point |
| 04:09.40 | Jason1 | I think that Harold may have been frustrated that they were going to ship a compltely non-functional device, so now they are re-flashing them.... |
| 04:09.41 | aloril | Jason1: no, I think they are just waiting for Chinese (USA too?) custom |
| 04:09.51 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 04:10.17 | anrp | maybe thats the reasons for the warnings? |
| 04:10.24 | anrp | if you can't flash it it's not ready for you.. |
| 04:10.28 | Jason1 | just a theory. |
| 04:10.38 | aloril | well, warning is needed even with most recent image ;-) |
| 04:10.46 | Jason1 | anrp: exactly... |
| 04:11.29 | Jason1 | It doesnt really matter. I think they have done a pretty good job, now, of making it clear that the phone may not be very functional. |
| 04:11.36 | anrp | high technology is one of those things as well |
| 04:12.13 | anrp | yeah, that honestly must suck for them, "hey everyone, in case you didn't figure it out yet, what we're selling DOES NOT WORK. please keep this in mind" |
| 04:13.15 | aloril | yeah, latest mail and direct.openmoko.com change which link to Developer_preview is quite good warning |
| 04:14.08 | aloril | and also that they require certain code for verification kind of checks for "I'm too stupid to even reply correctly" ;-) |
| 04:14.38 | patC | is there any word on being able to access voip services? |
| 04:14.47 | anrp | without a wireless net connection that's kind of hard |
| 04:14.51 | anrp | it is of course possible |
| 04:15.07 | aloril | probably want GTA02 for that |
| 04:15.11 | anrp | gprs latency is far too unreliable for voip |
| 04:15.24 | anrp | csd .. might, but that's a big if (and quality will suck) |
| 04:15.32 | cibomahto | they could have hidden a secret code somewhere in the dev. environment that you have to punch in before ordering |
| 04:15.32 | aloril | bluetooth should work, but its a bit limiting ;-) |
| 04:15.32 | anrp | bluetooth would work but honestly why do that? |
| 04:15.47 | aloril | cibomahto: hehe |
| 04:15.56 | anrp | if you were really enterprising you'd write a modulator that used the screen to transmit data to a webcam |
| 04:16.23 | aloril | anyway, if somebody makes lame review we can now flame them: "Didn't you read warnings?" |
| 04:16.35 | Qwell | anrp: no way - morse code |
| 04:16.39 | aloril | ;-) |
| 04:16.44 | anrp | what about the ones that get sold on ebay? D: |
| 04:16.48 | anrp | from the disenfranchised devs |
| 04:16.52 | Qwell | it's ebay |
| 04:16.54 | Qwell | it's all crap anyways |
| 04:17.02 | cibomahto | sweet, cheap phones! |
| 04:17.03 | anrp | you could use the vibrator motor to output data |
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| 04:17.09 | anrp | that would be ... |
| 04:17.33 | Jason1 | cibomahto: maybe i should have waited to order mine ;) |
| 04:17.34 | aloril | anrp: ah, that isn't anymore really FIC/OpenMoko responsibility, seller is responsible for warnings |
| 04:17.48 | anrp | doesn't mean they aren't going to come here damn quick and whine |
| 04:17.52 | Qwell | So, I need to go ahead and get Asterisk ported over, so I can carry a PBX in my pocket.. |
| 04:17.53 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Neo1973_Phase_1]] [[Wish_List]] [[Application_UI_Design_Recommendations]] |
| 04:18.07 | aloril | besides, at say GTA01B_04 at December with current firmware hopefully doesn't need any warnings |
| 04:19.34 | aloril | hardware should be OK, its just software state that needs warning currently, next year hopefully no need for that |
| 04:19.44 | anrp | here's hoping D: |
| 04:20.07 | Qwell | How large is the full dev env, out of curiosity? |
| 04:20.35 | anrp | up to 10gb |
| 04:20.36 | AntonTakk | december? i thought it was supposed to be on track got release in October? |
| 04:20.43 | Qwell | up to? |
| 04:20.49 | anrp | october hw rel + time to integrate new bits |
| 04:20.52 | anrp | well it varies |
| 04:20.53 | anrp | a lot... |
| 04:20.59 | Jason1 | AntonTakk: no one really knows... |
| 04:21.06 | AntonTakk | oh |
| 04:21.11 | Qwell | 10gb built, or source+toolchain? |
| 04:21.28 | cibomahto | Jason1: it should be interesting to play with, anyway |
| 04:23.20 | Jason1 | cibomahto: definately |
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| 04:27.46 | aloril | AntonTakk: I think at October it still needs some kind of warning: "This is for nerds and other advanced users, its not yet iPhone polished" ;-) |
| 04:28.06 | anrp | it'll be hard to get to that point |
| 04:28.13 | daMaestro | AntonTakk, thus i got a GTA01 |
| 04:28.15 | anrp | considering the iphone has polished-to-a-mirror aluminum |
| 04:28.17 | anrp | ;o |
| 04:28.38 | daMaestro | AntonTakk, though.. i've kinda expected on at least using it as my primary phone; oh well.. more motivation to fix it |
| 04:28.48 | anrp | unless fic decides to sell a chrome-plated plastic version |
| 04:28.51 | anrp | ~_~ |
| 04:28.52 | apt | :/ |
| 04:29.22 | anrp | that would be vaguely amusing |
| 04:29.49 | daMaestro | i really, really hope that the GTA01 hardware is solid |
| 04:29.51 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 04:29.53 | daMaestro | software, we can deal it |
| 04:29.55 | daMaestro | with* |
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| 04:33.02 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 638 has been created by autobuild-reports(AT)openmoko.org |
| 04:33.03 | cdbot2 | * * libxosd-2.2.15+svn20070713-r4-do_fetch |
| 04:33.05 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=638 |
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| 04:56.02 | slavi1 | the phone on sale now, does it have wifi hardware? |
| 04:56.07 | calamous | I'm excited for GTA02, I want the accelerometers |
| 04:56.08 | aloril | Currently sold Neo1973 GTA01B_v04 (P1) doesn't have WiFi, GTA02 (P2) which is scheduled for October will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F |
| 04:56.25 | slavi1 | aww :( |
| 04:56.31 | calamous | The GTA01 has bluetooth right? |
| 04:56.35 | anrp | y |
| 04:56.41 | aloril | pretty good % on wifi trigger ;-) |
| 04:56.53 | anrp | .. |
| 04:56.54 | anrp | faq! |
| 04:57.00 | aloril | faq |
| 04:57.00 | aloril | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) |
| 04:57.04 | anrp | faq this and faq you ~_~ |
| 04:57.04 | calamous | I'm going to get a bluetooth USB dongle and set up a PAN for my phone |
| 05:01.48 | slavi1 | is there a definite ship date for neo1973? (with wifi and such) |
| 05:01.59 | anrp | not really |
| 05:02.29 | cjb | October sometime |
| 05:02.43 | slavi1 | I shall save my penies |
| 05:02.52 | slavi1 | s/n/nn/ |
| 05:03.10 | slavi1 | lol |
| 05:03.19 | Jason1 | hehe |
| 05:03.50 | slavi1 | also, what would stop neo1973 from being able to use high capacity sd cards (8GB+) ??? would it be a hardware limitation? |
| 05:04.06 | anrp | the fact that you can't buy them |
| 05:04.08 | anrp | is the real limitation right now |
| 05:04.11 | slavi1 | sounds fair |
| 05:04.27 | slavi1 | but as far as hardware, shouldn't be a problem, right? |
| 05:04.32 | aloril | just to clarify because someone though some day ago it was closed: October will have WiFi with free (libre) drivers (Atheros AR6K) |
| 05:04.36 | anrp | shouldn't |
| 05:05.04 | slavi1 | also, would a 2.5" bus powered hdd draw too much battery? |
| 05:05.16 | aloril | slavi1: 4GB and higher: AFAIC nobody has yet been able to test them |
| 05:05.31 | slavi1 | aloril: k |
| 05:05.41 | aloril | slavi1: you need battery powered USB hub for that, no power in Neo1973's USB port |
| 05:05.57 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@c-76-30-222-129.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 05:06.03 | slavi1 | so, the usb is only data? |
| 05:06.17 | rwhitby | calamous: I'm working on NSLU2 (and other similar routers/nas boxes) running openwrt and supporting bluetooth internet access for the Neo. |
| 05:06.21 | slavi1 | hmm, the thing is, that drive has only 1 usb cable ... |
| 05:06.34 | anrp | you could cut and solder |
| 05:06.56 | slavi1 | it's the outer wires, correct? |
| 05:06.57 | anrp | the answer is an unqualified no for almost all moble hdds though, there's no 5V rail |
| 05:07.05 | anrp | i don't know if the 1.8" drives use 3.3v though |
| 05:07.21 | slavi1 | anrp: I am refering to the WD passport series |
| 05:07.32 | anrp | ? |
| 05:07.47 | slavi1 | small drives that are bus powered, 2.5" I think |
| 05:08.05 | anrp | you realize a 2.5" drive is practically the size of the neo right ~_~ |
| 05:08.52 | slavi1 | yes :) |
| 05:09.05 | anrp | they're generally rated 2.5W max, and they are 5V |
| 05:09.08 | *** join/#openmoko olv (n=olvaffe@123-193-215-175.ethome-ip.ethome.com.tw) |
| 05:09.13 | anrp | so you're going to need extra power conversion hw to run it |
| 05:09.22 | slavi1 | hmm, would a separate battery pack suffice? |
| 05:09.26 | anrp | it would |
| 05:09.34 | slavi1 | k |
| 05:09.35 | anrp | smps for the 5V rail is best but not that simple |
| 05:09.42 | slavi1 | smps? |
| 05:09.54 | anrp | although you can buy a 7805 drop in replacement switching regulator |
| 05:10.02 | anrp | you need to regulate the voltage, smps = switched mode power supply |
| 05:10.08 | slavi1 | I see |
| 05:10.15 | anrp | uh.. sec |
| 05:10.24 | slavi1 | separate battery pack with a step down would be better, no? |
| 05:10.34 | anrp | yes |
| 05:10.42 | anrp | you would flatten the internal battery if you tried that |
| 05:12.06 | slavi1 | would neo be able to power nand flash? |
| 05:12.11 | aloril | Battery powered USB hub: http://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Power-Battery-Powered-CP-H420MP/dp/B0002UQALQ |
| 05:12.15 | anrp | that's a lot better, ya |
| 05:12.26 | aloril | this might work, AFAIC nobody has tested it |
| 05:12.39 | slavi1 | k |
| 05:12.43 | anrp | http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pt78ht205.html |
| 05:12.49 | anrp | if you go the diy route |
| 05:13.00 | slavi1 | well, I am interested in having neo be able to access the hdd while on the go |
| 05:13.07 | aloril | slavi1: no power in USB port at all |
| 05:14.02 | aloril | at some point FIC/OpenMoko probably will offer something that can charge Neo1973 from batteries and/or provide power to USB devices |
| 05:14.17 | aloril | ie.. like above + http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/ |
| 05:14.30 | anrp | or you could just use that ... |
| 05:14.47 | aloril | note that Mintyboost gives only 250mA, while Neo1973 wants 500mA |
| 05:14.48 | slavi1 | k |
| 05:15.22 | aloril | or some third party might make suitable thing ;-) |
| 05:15.48 | slavi1 | for usb, max is 200ma, no? (1W) |
| 05:16.29 | *** join/#openmoko ben_goodger (n=ben@host81-153-25-122.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 05:16.31 | aloril | no, 500mA is max for USB |
| 05:16.42 | aloril | 100mA is max unrequested |
| 05:16.46 | anrp | hence the 2.5W figure D: |
| 05:16.52 | slavi1 | I see ... |
| 05:17.27 | aloril | so to Neo1973 by default probably will use 100mA from Mintyboost, but I think just small change and it could use 250mA ;-) |
| 05:18.16 | slavi1 | well, going to keep waiting for ship date ^^ |
| 05:18.18 | *** part/#openmoko slavi1 (n=slavik@67-100-227-140.adsl.lbdsl.net) |
| 05:20.17 | aloril | random blog: http://afronaut.blogspot.com/2007/07/free-your-mind-then-iphone-open-letter.html |
| 05:21.17 | aloril | anybody ordered recently? what is your rt ticket number? (just curious about rough guess about order numbers, first ticket number is 1820) |
| 05:24.52 | dantalizing | 3056 |
| 05:25.08 | calamous | Wow if the first tick is 1820 I'm like the 200th person |
| 05:25.33 | calamous | I would like the shake the person's hand who got 1821 |
| 05:25.54 | calamous | He/she must have been camping openmoko.com for a change |
| 05:26.59 | Jason1 | calamous: Im # 1820 |
| 05:27.23 | Jason1 | calamous: and yes, I hit refresh a whole lot :) |
| 05:27.30 | calamous | Wow. Congrats :) |
| 05:28.00 | calamous | Did you get advanced or regular? |
| 05:28.33 | Jason1 | Regular. I really like that box, but I dont really think I will need the debug board so I couldnt justify the extra $150 |
| 05:28.40 | Sup3rkiddo | Jason1, you make me jealous :s |
| 05:28.54 | Jason1 | :) |
| 05:29.14 | Jason1 | Hopefully as the first order, I will be the first to get mine. |
| 05:29.29 | calamous | did you have do type the YES_I_DO in the confirm email? |
| 05:29.37 | Jason1 | yup. |
| 05:29.39 | daMaestro | Jason1, nice |
| 05:29.47 | daMaestro | Jason1, i wanted order 1973 |
| 05:29.51 | calamous | When did you get your confirm email? |
| 05:29.53 | daMaestro | Jason1, i got 1964 |
| 05:29.58 | calamous | deMaestro, lol |
| 05:29.59 | Jason1 | LOL. That would have been awesome! |
| 05:30.14 | calamous | Maybe you get a discount with that number |
| 05:30.23 | Jason1 | Wodner who got it. Is it in the P1 owner's list? |
| 05:30.29 | Jason1 | *Wonder |
| 05:30.39 | calamous | There is a list? |
| 05:31.01 | Jason1 | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners |
| 05:31.32 | Jason1 | calamous: There are a bunch of lists :) we are so bored while we wait that we are making all sorts of lists to put your name on :) |
| 05:31.38 | dantalizing | wow, I didnt notice that YES_I_DO ... |
| 05:31.46 | dantalizing | I thought we only had to reply if we didnt want |
| 05:31.56 | Sup3rkiddo | i wonder who has the order number 1973? |
| 05:31.59 | Jason1 | dantalizing: oops. thats would have sucked |
| 05:32.06 | Jason1 | *that |
| 05:32.19 | dantalizing | yup...glad y'all brought it up |
| 05:32.36 | calamous | Jason, I'm from chicago too |
| 05:33.04 | Jason1 | calamous: Ohh? what area? Im in the southwest suburbs |
| 05:33.16 | calamous | Lakeview / Lincoln Park |
| 05:33.35 | Jason1 | calamous: You still live here? |
| 05:33.44 | Sup3rkiddo | we gotta reply YES_I_DO to the auto generated mail? |
| 05:33.46 | calamous | Yeah |
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| 05:34.23 | daMaestro | Jason1, are we supposed to add ourselves to the list or? |
| 05:34.27 | Jason1 | Sup3rkiddo: You should get a 2nd email askingyou to confirm your order IF you ordered your Neo before they added the "WARNING: This is a dev product" to the store |
| 05:34.46 | Jason1 | daMaestro: You dont HAVE to. Just and FYI kind of thing |
| 05:35.15 | Sup3rkiddo | Jason1, oh.dang..i am being sponsored the device, so i guess i should ask the one who helped me order it |
| 05:35.21 | daMaestro | well.. i mean there is no automagic add? |
| 05:35.44 | Jason1 | daMaestro: No. We are just manually adding ourselves |
| 05:36.29 | Jason1 | calamous: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Chicago |
| 05:36.29 | Jason1 | Add yourself to the Chicago area list... maybe we can get a little Neo meeting together... |
| 05:36.53 | calamous | Yeah. That would be great. see what we can do |
| 05:36.57 | Jason1 | see more lists :) |
| 05:39.22 | calamous | When openmoko goes like in oct, do you think phone companies like ATT will have a reaction to it? |
| 05:39.35 | calamous | (live being GTA02) |
| 05:39.43 | cjb | no. |
| 05:40.26 | *** join/#openmoko ben_goodger_ (n=ben@host81-153-25-122.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 05:40.54 | Jason1 | calamous: It is a proably a little small-time for them, but it will be interesting what distribution channels that FIC uses. |
| 05:41.05 | Sup3rkiddo | if we dont reply the second mail with YES_I_DO, does it mean trouble |
| 05:41.16 | daMaestro | http://dev.damaestro.us/neo2.png http://dev.damaestro.us/neo1.png ... if anyone is using fedora, i've got qemu-1973 packaged and working on fc6+ |
| 05:41.33 | calamous | Superkiddo, what is your order # |
| 05:42.22 | calamous | DaMaestro, nice SS, I see you got beryl working too |
| 05:42.32 | *** join/#openmoko pidgin-irc (n=pidgin-i@adsl-75-57-75-195.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) |
| 05:42.46 | daMaestro | yeah.. it boils down to: yum install gnome-beryl ;-) |
| 05:43.02 | calamous | Its like that on my ubuntu. but it was a pain (but fun) on Gentoo |
| 05:43.14 | daMaestro | i'm looking forward to use compiz-fusion... should be nice |
| 05:43.52 | calamous | What do you use for an IRC client on your box (in linux)? |
| 05:43.54 | unknown_lamer | daMaestro: my friend is using that now it has a bunch of weird problems |
| 05:43.55 | *** join/#openmoko ben_goodger (n=ben@host81-153-25-122.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 05:44.06 | Jason1 | calamous: I use Kopete |
| 05:44.09 | daMaestro | unknown_lamer, has there even been a full release? |
| 05:44.28 | calamous | I'm using GAIM but I dont like it that much |
| 05:44.30 | unknown_lamer | daMaestro: dunno, but one night he wandered over and demanded that I come and stare at it |
| 05:44.51 | daMaestro | lol |
| 05:44.53 | *** part/#openmoko ben_goodger (n=ben@host81-153-25-122.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 05:45.09 | calamous | Jason, are you excited for KDE4? |
| 05:45.13 | *** join/#openmoko ben_goodger_ (n=ben@host81-153-25-122.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 05:45.26 | unknown_lamer | daMaestro: I'm kind of trapped in the land of a radeon 9100 that can play q3a and not much else |
| 05:45.43 | daMaestro | eeeww.. |
| 05:45.53 | Jason1 | calamous: From the stuff I have heard, yeah. |
| 05:45.55 | daMaestro | the hardware itself is nice.. but fglrx sux0rs |
| 05:46.08 | unknown_lamer | I'm fsf member #114 |
| 05:46.14 | unknown_lamer | now fglrx for me |
| 05:46.37 | unknown_lamer | no rather |
| 05:46.48 | calamous | unknown_lamer, has fglrx changed changed in the past 5 years |
| 05:46.50 | unknown_lamer | I mostly run emacs and ... emacs so I don't really need 3d |
| 05:46.57 | calamous | I cant stand ATI's linux drivers |
| 05:46.59 | unknown_lamer | calamous: no idea because I've never used it and never will |
| 05:47.10 | unknown_lamer | the ati driver in xorg works fine |
| 05:47.15 | unknown_lamer | I get reasonable 3D and everything |
| 05:47.21 | calamous | do you just use the "radeon" driver? |
| 05:47.41 | unknown_lamer | (the 9100 is the fastest r200 aside from the firegl 8800 which was +$100 at the time and only minimally faster) |
| 05:47.44 | unknown_lamer | calamous: yes |
| 05:47.52 | unknown_lamer | why would I use proprietary software? |
| 05:47.59 | unknown_lamer | it would kind of defeat the whole purpose of a Free system |
| 05:48.40 | unknown_lamer | I also mailed nvidia and ati to let them know I would never buy their hardware again even if they went open again |
| 05:48.40 | unknown_lamer | used for all time |
| 05:48.40 | unknown_lamer | they can fuck themselves at this point |
| 05:48.40 | unknown_lamer | amd too for their empty promises |
| 05:48.40 | unknown_lamer | so I'm pretty much unable to buy hardware nowadays |
| 05:48.43 | calamous | Its frustraiting. I though ATI would change when AMD bough them |
| 05:48.46 | calamous | bought* |
| 05:49.05 | unknown_lamer | yeah, and all we got from AMD were a bunch of "oh we're going to release docs and source soooooooon" multiple times with no follow through |
| 05:49.13 | calamous | Intel opened their graphics driver didnt they (not saying that they make the best card) |
| 05:49.18 | unknown_lamer | yeah, but it's all integrated |
| 05:49.26 | calamous | yeah |
| 05:49.33 | *** join/#openmoko holycow (n=hello@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net) |
| 05:49.39 | unknown_lamer | I have my dual athlon machine and will for at least another five years so that doesn't help me :-( |
| 05:49.41 | Jason1 | daMaestro: YES_I_DO_DIDDLY_DO --> ROFL! |
| 05:49.45 | calamous | My kernel is "Tainted" unfortuantely |
| 05:49.56 | daMaestro | Jason1, ;-) |
| 05:50.15 | daMaestro | Jason1, the *first* think (after a phone call) i am going to do is get mplayer or other media player running |
| 05:50.20 | daMaestro | so i can watch the simpsons |
| 05:50.20 | unknown_lamer | calamous: heh mine used to be ... for the old school bsd licensed ppp compression driver :-) |
| 05:50.36 | calamous | daMaestro, lol |
| 05:50.38 | Jason1 | daMaestro: Awesome :) |
| 05:50.43 | calamous | :) |
| 05:50.45 | daMaestro | s/think/thing/ |
| 05:51.04 | unknown_lamer | I wonder how well that will work |
| 05:51.20 | daMaestro | it's going to have to be a stupid custom build |
| 05:51.22 | unknown_lamer | my 120Mhz nokia has trouble with standard qvga 3gpp videos at higher than 25fps |
| 05:51.23 | daMaestro | but it will work |
| 05:51.39 | unknown_lamer | and my old 500mhz k6-2 couldn;t play 640x480 divx at all |
| 05:51.48 | unknown_lamer | well, not without dropping half the frames |
| 05:51.51 | Jason1 | daMaestro: Did you see the video on YouTube of the video sample? |
| 05:51.55 | unknown_lamer | and the neo has no video scaling hardware right? |
| 05:52.05 | daMaestro | i never said it would not need to also be custom encoded for the neo |
| 05:52.16 | daMaestro | i plan on making a theora profile for the neo |
| 05:52.19 | unknown_lamer | yeah, but without scaling hardware you are doomed to small videos |
| 05:52.24 | daMaestro | and just using ffmpeg2theora ;-) |
| 05:52.33 | unknown_lamer | is there a fixed point theora decoder now? |
| 05:53.07 | daMaestro | i don't know |
| 05:53.43 | unknown_lamer | google says no |
| 05:53.46 | unknown_lamer | I think it might be difficult |
| 05:54.00 | unknown_lamer | software emulated floating point is sloooooowwwwwwwwww |
| 05:54.32 | calamous | The S3c2410 does not have an FPU? |
| 05:55.11 | calamous | I'm going to pull that datasheet |
| 05:55.12 | unknown_lamer | I was under the impression that it wasn't one of the few arms with the fpu coprocessor |
| 05:55.24 | unknown_lamer | which is also why gtk is at 2.6 instead of 2.10 with cairo |
| 05:55.51 | calamous | ohh alright |
| 05:56.02 | Linux_Galore | zecke really gives Lorn Potter (Trolltech) an ear full on his blog ->http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/07/lovely-respond-to-lorn-potter-of.html |
| 05:56.25 | unknown_lamer | too bad most of the criticism is baseless |
| 05:56.44 | unknown_lamer | oh no the phone interface lib is closed ... the library you have to reimplement for every platform anyway |
| 05:56.57 | unknown_lamer | at least the greenphone can make calls and sms |
| 05:57.08 | unknown_lamer | it's totally not worth $700 though |
| 05:57.37 | calamous | they dont call it a "phone" they kill it a "kit" right? |
| 05:58.07 | Jason1 | is the greenphone platform making progress? |
| 05:58.29 | unknown_lamer | there's not much traffic on the qtopia-interest list |
| 05:58.38 | unknown_lamer | a message every few weeks |
| 05:58.51 | Jason1 | unknown_lamer: wow, thats disappointing. |
| 05:58.57 | unknown_lamer | I imagine the $700 price tag for the not $700 worth of hardware hurt it |
| 05:59.05 | unknown_lamer | I like Qtopia more than Gtk+X :-\ |
| 05:59.50 | Jason1 | yeah $700 is a bit of an investment |
| 06:00.45 | calamous | I never know what to expect form trolltech |
| 06:00.58 | Jason1 | are there any production devices runnign qtopia? |
| 06:01.25 | unknown_lamer | I think there is a phillips phone |
| 06:02.34 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@cpc2-darl3-0-0-cust237.midd.cable.ntl.com) |
| 06:02.38 | calamous | (on a side note what do you think about http://www.savetheinternet.com/) |
| 06:02.59 | *** join/#openmoko ckuethe (n=ckuethe@S0106000024c38a18.ed.shawcable.net) |
| 06:06.07 | Linux_Galore | I like QT too, Philips have a really nice phone running qtopia http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2536449379.html |
| 06:06.29 | Linux_Galore | the Greenphone though conecpt and price is just stupid though |
| 06:06.38 | Linux_Galore | s/though// |
| 06:07.00 | Jason1 | Linux_Galore: Thats pretty slick phone |
| 06:07.24 | Linux_Galore | Jason1: yeah 3 month waiting list in Europe |
| 06:07.58 | Jason1 | Linux_Galore: Whats it cost? |
| 06:08.00 | Linux_Galore | best wifi/voip phone I have yet seen for the consumer |
| 06:08.52 | Jason1 | Linux_Galore: I am an Asterisk user, so this is interesting to me :) |
| 06:09.06 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 06:09.25 | Linux_Galore | USD$199 |
| 06:12.27 | Linux_Galore | dont blink another Linux VoIP phone is out http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/22/linux-powered-voip-uber-phone-does-wifi-video-conferencing/ |
| 06:13.07 | Linux_Galore | not bad for $260 |
| 06:13.28 | calamous | Check out the openmoko's video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5xj3FLb2Ew |
| 06:13.28 | *** topic/#openmoko by aloril -> wiki.openmoko.org <> Buy now for $300 from www.openmoko.com - Direct Link to Buy: https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping date projected at 2007-07-16 or later; If you ordered early, reply YES_I_DO to mail asking confirmation |
| 06:13.37 | calamous | it has the theme song to the rock |
| 06:16.41 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 06:17.28 | Linux_Galore | calamous: meh |
| 06:17.34 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Web_Browser]] [[OpenMoko_Local_groups:_Boston]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[User:Opampca]] [[P1_Owners]] [[User:DaMaestro]] [[Application_UI_Design_Recommendations]] |
| 06:18.35 | *** join/#openmoko ravan (n=ravan@59.93.64.115) |
| 06:19.17 | calamous | Linux_Galore: :) |
| 06:20.59 | aloril | maybe they could even ask for green colored case from FIC? ;-) |
| 06:21.22 | Jason1 | aloril: LOL! |
| 06:21.43 | Linux_Galore | heh |
| 06:21.51 | cworth | unknown_lamer: FWIW, missing FPU is really not a good reason for avoiding cairo---it works quite well without an FPU. |
| 06:21.57 | ewanm89_laptop | I'm still to order my neo :( |
| 06:22.05 | Jason1 | aloril: They were actually already planning a green one, right? white/green |
| 06:22.41 | Linux_Galore | aloril: chisel of the rounded edges on the phone paint it lime green, bingo we now have a qtopia phone |
| 06:22.42 | Jason1 | ewanm89_laptop: Whats the hold-up? |
| 06:23.28 | aloril | Jason1: no, I'm just throwing suggestion in the air ;-) |
| 06:23.38 | *** part/#openmoko dantalizing (n=dan@wsip-70-184-147-28.ga.at.cox.net) |
| 06:23.55 | koen | when the neo was being designed cairo had a piss poor performance on ARM |
| 06:24.06 | koen | but that has been fixed in the past months |
| 06:24.30 | Jason1 | aloril2: Green Neos: |
| 06:24.30 | Jason1 | http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2986976174.html |
| 06:25.46 | Linux_Galore | Im spray painting mine metalic silver (tungstan finnish) then adding a DC kit I have in the lab |
| 06:25.59 | aloril | Jason1: ah, that one, don't know about existence of green ones, but red ones do exists |
| 06:26.31 | Jason1 | aloril: Oh? I figured that these colors were dropped. |
| 06:26.32 | Linux_Galore | but first I have to wait for the GTA02 |
| 06:26.51 | aloril | Jason1: yes, not manufactured, but does exists red prototype |
| 06:27.00 | aloril | at least one person in this channel has one |
| 06:27.09 | Jason1 | Linux_Galore: so basically it will be all silver? |
| 06:27.52 | Linux_Galore | Jason1: yes but I will be using a faux brushed metal finnish not just plain silver, that would just look so wrong |
| 06:28.06 | Jason1 | aloril: sweet. I am most interest in custom cases. Some of the ideas in the Wiki are very interesting |
| 06:28.58 | Jason1 | Linux_Galore: Ahh. Thats sounds cool. |
| 06:29.01 | Linux_Galore | shiny cherry red would look nice with the rounded shape |
| 06:30.03 | Linux_Galore | my personal view is black doesnt work well with a curved shape, with a bick like shap ie iphone it works |
| 06:30.11 | Linux_Galore | shape* |
| 06:31.09 | Linux_Galore | Im also thinking of making a wood case |
| 06:31.27 | Jason1 | Linux_Galore: interesting. I dont think I have put that much thought into what colors compliment different shapes. |
| 06:31.59 | Jason1 | Linux_Galore: now wood would be very cool. I love the custom wood laptops. |
| 06:32.00 | Linux_Galore | Jason1: colour and shape really do work off each other |
| 06:32.40 | Linux_Galore | Jason1: make a steam punk copper/brass case mod |
| 06:32.50 | Linux_Galore | now that would be funky |
| 06:34.04 | Linux_Galore | steam punk laptop http://www.engadget.com/2006/10/13/steampunk-laptop-comes-complete-with-morse-key/ |
| 06:34.12 | *** join/#openmoko phrozen77_ (n=phrozen7@unaffiliated/phrozen77) |
| 06:34.53 | *** join/#openmoko nox-Hand (i=johnhand@unaffiliated/nox-hand) |
| 06:35.49 | Linux_Galore | steam punk watches are pretty cool -> http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/ticky_tocky,-steamy_punky/japanese-steampunk-watches-get-meta-with-time-276114.php |
| 06:36.36 | Linux_Galore | hmm make a steam punk case "kit" for the NEO $$$ |
| 06:38.23 | Linux_Galore | typo fix >my personal view is black doesnt work well with a curved shape, with a brick shape ie iphone, black it works |
| 06:40.03 | cworth | koen: yup |
| 06:40.46 | *** join/#openmoko jackey (n=jackey@S0106000c41aec1c3.vc.shawcable.net) |
| 06:41.37 | jackey | RT could not load a valid user, and RT's configuration does not allow |
| 06:41.38 | jackey | for the creation of a new user for your email. |
| 06:41.43 | daMaestro | Linux_Galore, those are pretty damn cool |
| 06:42.36 | cibomahto | jackey: did you send your reply from the same address that you received the email at? |
| 06:42.37 | Linux_Galore | red isnt a bad colour either for a phone http://shop.carphonewarehouse.com/show_handset_features.php?HANDSET=21911101&TAB=FEATURES |
| 06:43.15 | daMaestro | blah |
| 06:43.37 | daMaestro | any case mods should not be cosmetic.. they should be functional additions |
| 06:43.46 | jackey | i think so |
| 06:43.48 | daMaestro | coloring can happen at the consumer level ;-) |
| 06:44.35 | daMaestro | i think i'm all for paying someone for a case mod (that i just plug all the neo guts inside) or replacement that allows me to use mame |
| 06:44.36 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_laptop (n=ewanm89@host86-151-100-122.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) |
| 06:45.12 | Linux_Galore | when the openmoko gets as pretty as this Linux phone we will then have serious business http://www.samstores.com/_images/products/A1200%20red.jpg |
| 06:45.24 | cibomahto | jackey: ok, thats the only suggestion i have |
| 06:46.11 | daMaestro | Linux_Galore, that is good looking |
| 06:46.32 | Linux_Galore | one of the guys at work has a ming, trust me chicks drool when they see it |
| 06:46.43 | Linux_Galore | Motorola Ming (a1200) |
| 06:47.13 | Linux_Galore | the laugh is its cheaper than a NEO |
| 06:48.20 | jackey | i think i knew why |
| 06:48.39 | daMaestro | http://www.motorola.com.hk/eng/motomobile/a/a1200/ .. nice |
| 06:48.42 | jackey | i am using GMAIL stmp instead of company's stmp |
| 06:48.57 | daMaestro | linux powered phone.. but a SHIT iis site that doesn't even let me look at it |
| 06:48.59 | cibomahto | jackey: yep, that would be the problem |
| 06:49.09 | Linux_Galore | daMaestro: broken link |
| 06:50.41 | Linux_Galore | OK heres my GTA02 steam punk mod kit http://www.piratepalooza.com/rphone/graphics/hero_shot.jpg |
| 06:50.49 | Linux_Galore | heh |
| 06:50.55 | daMaestro | Linux_Galore, meh.. it doesn't look like it's an open platform |
| 06:51.01 | daMaestro | blah on the ming |
| 06:51.40 | Linux_Galore | daMaestro: make the NEO look like that for USD$300 with a working UI and you will sell a million |
| 06:51.41 | Jason1 | yeah, the Ming is Linux-based, but Moto doesnt let you anywhere near it. |
| 06:52.02 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@219-89-45-182.dialup.xtra.co.nz) |
| 06:52.15 | jackey | haha, sale a million |
| 06:52.16 | *** join/#openmoko slytherin (n=root@203.199.147.101) |
| 06:52.22 | jackey | a joke |
| 06:52.39 | jackey | toy is toy, impossible to be a product |
| 06:52.43 | Linux_Galore | jackey: in mobile land 1 million is nothing |
| 06:53.10 | Linux_Galore | jackey: china buys over 40 millions units a year |
| 06:53.36 | jackey | i knew, i am from mobile industry |
| 06:53.47 | Linux_Galore | that number I got 5 years ago it would be way over 100 mill now |
| 06:54.16 | daMaestro | jackey, the neo could very easily become a good dev platform for a good software base to go onto a 3G/4G based device |
| 06:54.37 | jackey | feature phone only sale for $40 bucks, looks like a smart phone in China |
| 06:54.53 | jackey | 3G/4G? come on. |
| 06:55.02 | daMaestro | i think we (the p1 users) should drive some after market case designs that just take the guts of the neo and make it do cool things |
| 06:55.12 | jackey | u even can not make it to be a GSM/WIFI dual model phone |
| 06:55.20 | daMaestro | jackey, what are you blabbing about? |
| 06:55.24 | Linux_Galore | qonder if we can the people behind the tphone (iphone clone) to make a Linux version |
| 06:55.29 | Linux_Galore | wonder* |
| 06:55.58 | jackey | daMaestro, just try to tell the truth here. |
| 06:56.01 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 06:56.11 | daMaestro | jackey, GTA02 will have wifi |
| 06:56.27 | jackey | i knew, but won't allow to sale in china |
| 06:56.48 | daMaestro | jackey, most likely the neo1973 will never see 3G or 4G... but that does not mean the openmoko platform is not able to mature on the neo1973 to be put on the next device(s) FIC is working on |
| 06:56.50 | Linux_Galore | jackey: wtf, its made in china |
| 06:56.58 | daMaestro | jackey, this is true |
| 06:57.05 | daMaestro | jackey, (it being made in china) |
| 06:57.24 | jackey | i knew, make in HeFei |
| 06:57.28 | Linux_Galore | wtf is 3.5G |
| 06:57.38 | daMaestro | wanna be 4G |
| 06:57.38 | daMaestro | lol |
| 06:57.48 | jackey | daMaestro, yes. Neo is a good platform. |
| 06:57.52 | daMaestro | just like we get wanna be 3G (aka 2.5G) |
| 06:57.53 | jackey | for development. |
| 06:57.56 | daMaestro | jackey, yes. |
| 06:58.00 | slytherin | Linux_Galore: Do you need to use wtf? |
| 06:58.18 | Linux_Galore | slytherin: hmm sorry what the frig |
| 06:58.19 | daMaestro | slytherin, do you need to irc as root? |
| 06:58.20 | jackey | actually, be honest. Neo is a good reference design for us. |
| 06:58.21 | daMaestro | ;-) |
| 06:58.37 | jackey | I ordered 10 (5 advanced) |
| 06:58.49 | slytherin | daMaestro: I am not. It is just illusion. I have set user name as root in my irc client. :-D |
| 06:58.56 | Linux_Galore | well the NEO is a good start |
| 06:59.14 | arachnid | 10?! Neo hog! ;) |
| 06:59.30 | Linux_Galore | you have to start somewere and obviously it wont be great right of the mark without a fortune behind it |
| 07:00.06 | jackey | if it is fully open, give me two months. I will surprise you guys. |
| 07:00.46 | Linux_Galore | hope they make a GTA03 in 2008 with everything" |
| 07:00.50 | jackey | i through a team working on the FIC and try to make it more close to a product. |
| 07:01.06 | slytherin | jackey: Surprise with what? :-) |
| 07:01.07 | Linux_Galore | USD$600 GTA03 would be cool |
| 07:01.35 | daMaestro | that's too steep for me |
| 07:01.40 | daMaestro | if it doesn't have 3G+ |
| 07:01.44 | jackey | Linux_Galore: I hope it not. |
| 07:01.50 | daMaestro | jackey, yeah.. +1 |
| 07:01.55 | daMaestro | ~$300 is fine |
| 07:01.55 | apt | okay, daMaestro |
| 07:01.55 | slytherin | Does anyone other than me thinks that GTA refers to Grand Theft Auto? |
| 07:02.11 | daMaestro | apt install what? |
| 07:02.21 | jackey | because, i really do not want to see two much components on it right now. |
| 07:02.24 | daMaestro | oh.. damn bot |
| 07:02.29 | Linux_Galore | jackey: Im talking with "everything" ie 5mb DC 3.5" multitouch LCD etc |
| 07:02.29 | daMaestro | ~$300? |
| 07:02.30 | apt | it has been said that $300 is fine |
| 07:02.34 | daMaestro | LOL |
| 07:02.51 | Linux_Galore | s/5mb/5MP/ |
| 07:03.04 | jackey | i knew, P1 is good enough, P1 + Camera is super awesome product. |
| 07:03.12 | Linux_Galore | keep the $300 version but have a full on unit |
| 07:03.25 | daMaestro | i have zero use for a camera |
| 07:03.29 | cibomahto | jackey: so what are you planning to do? |
| 07:03.37 | daMaestro | but that is just my personal usecase(s) |
| 07:03.50 | cibomahto | damaestro: the camera can come in really handy for remembering parking spaces, prices at stores, etc |
| 07:03.51 | daMaestro | what i would like to see is a very modular phone |
| 07:04.05 | daMaestro | cibomahto, i have my brain for that |
| 07:04.07 | jackey | my opinion, is that. Make a mass production before you add any additional components. |
| 07:04.18 | jackey | Let me give an example |
| 07:04.27 | cibomahto | damaestro: fair enough |
| 07:04.35 | daMaestro | cibomahto, ;-) ... lol |
| 07:04.36 | jackey | If we have to add a wifi model and have a GSM/Wifi dual model. |
| 07:04.47 | daMaestro | jackey, GTA02 will have that |
| 07:05.04 | daMaestro | jackey, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 |
| 07:05.18 | jackey | There is a license issue that we can not avoid. There is a damn patent here. |
| 07:05.21 | Linux_Galore | daMaestro: there was a really funny advertising thing (optus) here in Sydney were they had a big yellow cadilack full of penguins driving around the city, you could see people takining pic's with their mobiles |
| 07:05.52 | daMaestro | jackey, patent for what? |
| 07:06.22 | jackey | switching bwtween GSM/Wifi and roaming, i not sure but I can find out. |
| 07:06.26 | *** part/#openmoko Jason1 (n=ws1@c-24-15-3-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 07:06.52 | slytherin | jackey: Are you trying to build another phone which will use openmoko? |
| 07:07.00 | daMaestro | oh blah.. you are talking about shit carriers |
| 07:07.01 | jackey | no |
| 07:07.15 | jackey | daMaestro, damn right |
| 07:07.24 | daMaestro | jackey, yeah.. well... all that needs to change |
| 07:07.39 | daMaestro | i will state: i hate my choice of wireless carriers |
| 07:07.43 | daMaestro | period. |
| 07:08.05 | jackey | if I make a decision on the roadmap, I will try to push a mass production instead of getting everything |
| 07:08.40 | daMaestro | i think it's really funny that carriers are able to apply hot-potato routing to their fsking gsm networks |
| 07:08.49 | Linux_Galore | yeah well I would go for a mass produced unit first too thats obvious, you can do all the crazy crap later |
| 07:08.53 | daMaestro | what lame pieces of sheit |
| 07:09.08 | jackey | from tech. view, if neo keeps adding new components, it is very hard to complete full software stacks. |
| 07:09.38 | daMaestro | FOSS always has strange growing pains due to it's inherit nature of always growing |
| 07:09.43 | jackey | for example, NEO has no Power Management. |
| 07:09.48 | daMaestro | i really want FIC to step up and make a fully modular phone |
| 07:09.55 | Linux_Galore | jackey: welcome to telecommunications, every 4 years we add a shit load of options to our gear |
| 07:09.57 | daMaestro | so if i don't want a camera.. i don't get one |
| 07:10.18 | jackey | Telephony and PM are the most hardest parts to make phone product. |
| 07:10.23 | wizdumb | not sure if you guys know about it, but there is another open phone project I saw at the maker faire in san jose |
| 07:10.26 | daMaestro | if i want gsm.. i get gsm.. if i want cdma.. i want cdmam edgem evdo... wifi.. wimax.. etc |
| 07:10.28 | wizdumb | runs on the gumstix |
| 07:10.39 | wizdumb | has a PSP display with touchscreen overlay |
| 07:10.55 | wizdumb | the devs said they were working to make kits of the hardware for people |
| 07:10.58 | daMaestro | wizdumb, links are nice |
| 07:11.03 | wizdumb | I havent heard anythign since |
| 07:11.10 | jackey | Linux_Galore, I agree. I see a good picture here, because openmoko is a company now. |
| 07:11.12 | Linux_Galore | wizdumb: yeah thats a build it yourself thing aimed at small producers who want to produce niche products |
| 07:11.18 | wizdumb | let me see if I can find one |
| 07:11.35 | *** part/#openmoko slytherin (n=root@203.199.147.101) |
| 07:11.40 | wizdumb | Linux_Galore, right its for DIYers |
| 07:11.48 | wizdumb | I mention it because he asked for a modular phone |
| 07:11.57 | daMaestro | ahh right |
| 07:12.04 | Linux_Galore | wizdumb: actually the biggest users are companies who wantto monitor machinery in remote areas |
| 07:12.04 | daMaestro | i'm more for the open hardware also |
| 07:12.10 | Linux_Galore | wizdumb: not hackers |
| 07:12.26 | jackey | check out this one www.sandbridgetech.com |
| 07:12.33 | wizdumb | Linux_Galore, users of what? |
| 07:12.34 | *** join/#openmoko dantalizing (n=dantaliz@n128-227-1-241.xlate.ufl.edu) |
| 07:12.51 | jackey | single chip multiple core, software stack only |
| 07:12.52 | Linux_Galore | wizdumb: gumbstick gsm thing |
| 07:12.56 | cibomahto | http://www.hbmobile.org/ i think |
| 07:13.40 | wizdumb | http://hbmobile.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page |
| 07:13.43 | wizdumb | yeah thats it |
| 07:14.00 | wizdumb | I saw the proto, it was pretty sweet |
| 07:14.01 | daMaestro | jackey, the sb3000 looks nice |
| 07:14.05 | wizdumb | they had it all taken apart though |
| 07:14.09 | wizdumb | and the case was ugly bue |
| 07:14.13 | wizdumb | but thats changeable of course |
| 07:14.21 | daMaestro | jackey, i don't like hardware media decoding though |
| 07:14.31 | daMaestro | jackey, lame. patents. at. the. hardware. level. |
| 07:14.33 | jackey | daMaestro, will you come Linux World at SFO in Aug. |
| 07:14.38 | cibomahto | i saw an empty shell sitting in the techshop area, was that it? |
| 07:14.47 | jackey | i show you the real thing |
| 07:14.50 | daMaestro | jackey, i might be there |
| 07:15.04 | Linux_Galore | someone needs to edit the page and add the openmoko |
| 07:15.06 | jackey | great, we have a booth there. |
| 07:15.20 | jackey | My company name: ArcherMind Technology |
| 07:15.25 | *** join/#openmoko SiO2 (n=sarge@p54B3C9FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 07:15.29 | SiO2 | hi |
| 07:15.44 | daMaestro | jackey, do me a favor... look into including hardware based vorbis suppose ;-) |
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| 07:16.22 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@84-73-66-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 07:16.43 | daMaestro | support* |
| 07:16.44 | daMaestro | grr |
| 07:17.10 | Linux_Galore | few guys from SLUG (Sydney Linux User Group) have ordered a GTA01 |
| 07:17.34 | jackey | daMaestro, target for? |
| 07:17.38 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 07:17.42 | Linux_Galore | with luck we will have a show and tell at the next monthly meeting |
| 07:17.54 | daMaestro | jackey, openess |
| 07:18.04 | jackey | roger that |
| 07:19.16 | daMaestro | jackey, i would consider looking at the sb3000 for a device i'm building; if it had zero closed source components |
| 07:19.21 | daMaestro | aka.. mp3 support, etc |
| 07:19.42 | daMaestro | i'm all for supporting the companies that stand up against patents that should not exists |
| 07:19.51 | daMaestro | patents were not meant for what they are being used for anymore |
| 07:19.52 | jackey | i had a latest sb3011 |
| 07:20.21 | Linux_Galore | one thing the openmoko may do is merge all these projects |
| 07:21.01 | Linux_Galore | not having to hack you own phone together before you even start writing code is an advantage |
| 07:21.14 | jackey | daMaestro, you mean SB3000? |
| 07:21.16 | daMaestro | FIC better start taking specs ;-) |
| 07:21.16 | daMaestro | lol |
| 07:22.01 | jackey | actually, they should take my specs first. I can make it mass production quickly. |
| 07:22.11 | jackey | haha, may be not |
| 07:22.49 | Linux_Galore | http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/Sept2006/3700.htm |
| 07:24.21 | jackey | i saw their demos, wifi, wimax, cdma and gps all software stacks |
| 07:24.42 | jackey | also H.264 decoding |
| 07:24.46 | jackey | mpeg4 decoding |
| 07:24.52 | Linux_Galore | yeah and happily works with Linux |
| 07:25.24 | jackey | everything is software based and operated by DSP. |
| 07:26.13 | jackey | it has one arm 926e, 4 low power dsp and support 32 threads |
| 07:26.37 | jackey | additional 10% for power |
| 07:27.16 | jackey | if get a good power management, it could be just additional 7~8%, i guess. |
| 07:28.34 | jackey | Linux_Galore, not 100% Linux yet. Because, you do not really need lots support by OS, lots of work has been taking care by DSPs |
| 07:28.56 | paulproteus | jackey, Will you be at LinuxWorld in San Fran? |
| 07:29.05 | jackey | yes |
| 07:29.11 | paulproteus | I probably will be, at least for some time, at the booth for Creative Commons. |
| 07:29.27 | daMaestro | paulproteus, CC++ |
| 07:29.46 | *** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 07:29.56 | *** join/#openmoko jserv2 (n=jserv@linux3.cc.ntu.edu.tw) |
| 07:29.57 | paulproteus | daMaestro, Thanks! (-: |
| 07:30.13 | jackey | paulproteus, we have a booth there too, my company : ArcherMind Technology. |
| 07:30.57 | jackey | if anyone wants to see sb3011 demos, come to our booth. |
| 07:31.01 | paulproteus | jackey, Great, I'll go stop by. (-: |
| 07:31.05 | jackey | thx |
| 07:31.18 | paulproteus | I'll try to bring a Neo. (-; |
| 07:31.47 | hads | Heh, that confirmation email was amusing. |
| 07:31.59 | paulproteus | hads, Er, which is that? |
| 07:32.16 | daMaestro | hads, .. yea, "if you really don't want to spend your money, you get one last bail out chance///" |
| 07:32.17 | Psi | the one where you replay with YES_I_DO etc |
| 07:32.22 | hads | Yeah |
| 07:32.38 | hads | Not a bad idea though I guess. |
| 07:32.52 | Psi | is good that they did that, and that you have to do something to indicate you have read the message |
| 07:33.03 | jackey | I sent 3 times, last time I login via web interface and it works. |
| 07:33.46 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AD15F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 07:34.14 | jackey | i am trying to get the debug board ASAP. There is a bug on our current software stack |
| 07:34.24 | paulproteus | jackey, You're in SF? |
| 07:34.27 | paulproteus | I can lend you one.... |
| 07:34.54 | jackey | no, i am in Vancouver, flight to Toronto tomorrow. |
| 07:34.59 | paulproteus | jackey, Oh, okay. |
| 07:35.11 | jackey | thx anyway. |
| 07:36.00 | jackey | Does NEO have a MMI? |
| 07:37.35 | *** join/#openmoko skwid_ (n=skwid@70.53.136.123) |
| 07:37.49 | skwid_ | hey |
| 07:37.55 | paulproteus | Hey skwid_. |
| 07:38.12 | skwid_ | i was wondering if there was an xml library included in openmoko ? |
| 07:38.13 | aloril | skwid_: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 07:38.32 | aloril | yes, see OpenMoko links from faq |
| 07:38.37 | skwid_ | i see that the rss reader uses mrss, but I need to parse regular xml |
| 07:38.42 | jackey | hbmobile is a design house? |
| 07:38.42 | ynezz | in OE should be some |
| 07:39.13 | skwid_ | which one ? |
| 07:39.22 | jackey | http://hbmobile.org |
| 07:40.27 | jackey | skwid_, through Python on it? not sure |
| 07:40.36 | skwid_ | python ? |
| 07:41.18 | jackey | damn got a flight at 6AM |
| 07:43.33 | jackey | daMaestro, give up with MoTo |
| 07:44.17 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@c-76-30-222-129.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 07:45.41 | mjr | hmh, I haven't gotten a confirmantion e-mail; maybe it got classified as spam, and due to maintenance I won't be able to access that box until monday :I |
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| 08:13.02 | CM | mjr: Just mail YES_I_DO in a mail with [rt.internal.openmoko.org #XXXX] as your subject. ;) |
| 08:14.27 | *** join/#openmoko jgm (n=jgm@host-87-74-179-156.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 08:17.54 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[P1_Owners]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Montreal]] [[Neo1973_Phase_1]] |
| 08:19.20 | *** part/#openmoko bluefir (n=dave@milligan.bluefir.org) |
| 08:20.00 | *** join/#openmoko Linux_Galore_ (n=richard@60-242-20-212.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 08:21.07 | *** join/#openmoko codyl (n=codyl@adsl-71-142-70-134.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 08:22.05 | *** join/#openmoko jgm (n=jgm@host-87-74-179-156.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 08:23.24 | mjr | CM, yeah I did that after finding out the subject and from lines |
| 08:25.47 | mjr | I got a swift reply for my first message that I sent using my wrong address |
| 08:26.17 | mjr | nothing so far on the right ones (the first PGP-signed by accident, so I sent another in case that screws things up :] ) |
| 08:27.24 | Kero | no news is good news :) |
| 08:27.45 | Kero | too bad I can not check my credit card bill before the end of the month... |
| 08:28.07 | xkr47 | "Do you, dear valued customer, take this beloved neo to love and to hold, in sickness and in health?" |
| 08:28.13 | xkr47 | "YES_I_DO" |
| 08:28.24 | cibomahto | mjr: I didn't get a conformation either, I think thats just the way they do things |
| 08:28.28 | Hopscotch | good morning |
| 08:28.46 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081D9B6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 08:28.49 | mjr | righto |
| 08:29.14 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-180-165.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 08:32.16 | codyl | Kero, they arent billing until they shipped them |
| 08:33.52 | ewanm89_laptop | Is there a way to get the keyboard button to come up, sometimes it dosen't seem to want to. |
| 08:34.21 | *** join/#openmoko yveslu (n=yves@194.235.200.24) |
| 08:34.38 | *** join/#openmoko ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) |
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| 08:35.31 | CM | ewanm89_laptop: Many have complained on that bug, but no one seems to know what is causing it |
| 08:35.58 | ewanm89_laptop | Yeah, sometimes it happens sometimes it doesn't, real weird. |
| 08:36.08 | ewanm89_laptop | Guess I'll have to ssh in. |
| 08:36.32 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
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| 08:37.59 | Kero | codyl: that's cool. my remark was more of a punch at my credit card company. |
| 08:38.25 | ewanm89_laptop | know how to ssh in when running in qemu? |
| 08:39.17 | cibomahto | ewanm89: i think you have to emulate a usb port, and then set up a ethernet-over-usb connection |
| 08:39.55 | cibomahto | ewanm: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU#Setting_up_USB_connection |
| 08:41.05 | ewanm89_laptop | So I found :) |
| 08:43.16 | *** join/#openmoko Tyrael (n=tyrael@213-140-6-114.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 08:52.00 | Stephmw | mornin' |
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| 08:52.50 | ewanm89_laptop | morning, bye, reboot |
| 08:53.00 | gcb77 | Stephmw: mornin... what time-zone are you in? |
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| 08:53.28 | Stephmw | gcb77: the one that crawls out of bed at 10am :D |
| 08:53.36 | jserv2 | Stephmw: hi |
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| 08:53.56 | gcb77 | lol, I need to move there |
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| 09:21.43 | Linux_Galore | olpc and Intel join forces BBC -> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6897950.stm |
| 09:22.18 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@219-89-45-19.dialup.xtra.co.nz) |
| 09:23.04 | Linux_Galore | Im not really suprised to be honest |
| 09:23.55 | *** join/#openmoko [lankester] (n=olivier@74.57.68.63) |
| 09:24.12 | Linux_Galore | servers will be Intel and the laptops AMD, means neither can strangle the project |
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| 09:35.38 | buz | so olpc now sells servers? |
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| 09:36.04 | buz | save for the display, asus eee looks much more capable to me, anyhow |
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| 09:39.01 | thomasg_gpm | Linux_Galore, OLPC servers? one-laptop-per-child servers? the german magazine prolinux made a april-fool to that: OSFOLPC (one-server-for-one-laptop-per-child). but this was a fool. why the heck should the OLPC-project produce servers??? |
| 09:41.17 | ewanm89_laptop | su |
| 09:41.23 | jrockway | one per school? |
| 09:42.50 | SpeedEvil | Servers are needed to an extent. |
| 09:43.03 | SpeedEvil | These can in many cases be OLPCs |
| 09:43.31 | SpeedEvil | For example, internet connectivity or storage nodes |
| 09:44.32 | Linux_Galore | servers are part of the OLPC project |
| 09:44.50 | jrockway | i imagine the servers could be built more cheaply than the laptops |
| 09:45.00 | jrockway | just need a CPU and a disk, no expensive camera, touchscreen, etc. |
| 09:45.23 | Linux_Galore | the server in a way can eb even more simplified than the laptop |
| 09:45.43 | SpeedEvil | The OLPC screen is not touch |
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| 09:47.12 | SpeedEvil | Touch + dirty children = bad. |
| 09:47.34 | MickTaiwan | Touch + dirty woman = good |
| 09:47.44 | SpeedEvil | Not with touchscreens :) |
| 09:48.03 | ewanm89_laptop | Is the qemu -usbgdget and openoko addition? |
| 09:48.15 | *** join/#openmoko josh_marshall_ (n=josh@cpe-24-162-127-162.hot.res.rr.com) |
| 09:48.52 | SpeedEvil | IIRC no |
| 09:49.06 | SpeedEvil | I could well be wrong though. |
| 09:49.51 | Linux_Galore | the more hardware companies behind the OLPC the better |
| 09:49.51 | Linux_Galore | it is a huge undertaking |
| 09:49.53 | SpeedEvil | As long as it's quality hardware. |
| 09:50.12 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. Several hundred million laptops. |
| 09:50.43 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: I dare say over the next 10 years there will be more than one manufacturer of OLPC compliant equipment |
| 09:50.50 | SpeedEvil | All sorts of apps become possible. |
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| 09:51.03 | SpeedEvil | Given IP connectivity and children in africa. |
| 09:51.20 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: I cant see many of the others sitting on the side line while a whole new platform evolves |
| 09:51.27 | SpeedEvil | Or even prople in africa. |
| 09:51.56 | SpeedEvil | For example, remote controlled vacuum cleaners. |
| 09:52.36 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: there are people in the USA who cant get network access and children who cant afford a laptop, you would be suprised were the line of communications and western standards end |
| 09:52.47 | SpeedEvil | Not really. |
| 09:53.02 | SpeedEvil | There are gnettos everwhere. |
| 09:53.32 | ewanm89_laptop | Well I get Warning: could not find USB gadgetfs with the switch. |
| 09:53.52 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: I do work for a group here in Australia called computers bank, we are in the top 20 when it comes to quality of life in the world and I have gone to places were kids have no access to a PC |
| 09:54.18 | SpeedEvil | "" UK |
| 09:54.26 | *** join/#openmoko josh_marshal1 (n=josh@cpe-24-162-127-162.hot.res.rr.com) |
| 09:54.31 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 09:54.37 | Linux_Galore | computer bank recycles PC's from big companies ie puts linux on them and we go and install them in remote community centres |
| 09:55.12 | ewanm89_laptop | Could not add USB 'device gadget:1' |
| 09:55.12 | SpeedEvil | It's not the funding in many cases, it's the understanding as to why it might be useful and the knowledge to install. |
| 09:55.23 | *** join/#openmoko HeinMueck (n=Miranda@dslb-088-064-018-172.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 09:55.46 | Linux_Galore | lol @ gnettos |
| 09:56.11 | gcb77 | ewanm89_laptop: did you follow all the instructions on the wiki? |
| 09:56.40 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=rd@toi.yeu.phu.nu) |
| 09:56.46 | gcb77 | (header files, modules built, modules installed, /dev/gadget mounted, etc.) |
| 09:56.48 | ewanm89_laptop | gcb77: Yes |
| 09:58.44 | gcb77 | ewanm89_laptop: what does "info usbslave" |
| 09:58.47 | gcb77 | return? |
| 09:58.57 | ewanm89_laptop | Same as in the wiki. |
| 10:00.09 | gcb77 | any messages being displayed in the shell where you run qemu from? |
| 10:00.28 | ewanm89_laptop | Well I get Warning: could not find USB gadgetfs |
| 10:00.52 | gcb77 | what does it list when you type "ls /dev/gadget"? |
| 10:01.59 | ewanm89_laptop | dummy_udc |
| 10:02.07 | *** join/#openmoko ben_goodger (n=ben@host217-44-223-208.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) |
| 10:02.30 | ewanm89_laptop | -rw------- 1 ewanm89 root 0 2007-07-14 10:43 dummy_udc |
| 10:02.49 | gcb77 | when you run lsmod do you see all of these: cdc_ether usbnet gadgetfs and dummy_hcd? |
| 10:02.51 | *** join/#openmoko olv (n=olvaffe@123-193-215-175.ethome-ip.ethome.com.tw) |
| 10:03.19 | ewanm89_laptop | No, dummy_hcd is compiled in. |
| 10:03.58 | Stephmw | ewanm89_laptop: I misread that "No, dummy. hcd is compiled in." |
| 10:04.08 | gcb77 | lol |
| 10:04.30 | ewanm89_laptop | And I sthink usb_net and cdc_ether, |
| 10:04.41 | gcb77 | what distro? |
| 10:05.01 | ewanm89_laptop | gentoo, hence I compiled them in. |
| 10:05.27 | gcb77 | which kernel? |
| 10:05.39 | ewanm89_laptop | 2.6.22 vanilla |
| 10:06.18 | gcb77 | I ran into permission problems (user did not have access to read /dev/gadget) |
| 10:06.39 | gcb77 | I'm on openSuSE 10.2, 2.6.18 |
| 10:06.55 | ewanm89_laptop | cdc_ether == g_ether here. |
| 10:07.47 | ewanm89_laptop | And I loaded that module. |
| 10:08.20 | gcb77 | g_ether is a different module, I think |
| 10:08.31 | gcb77 | I have both (had to build g_ether myself) |
| 10:09.16 | gcb77 | every time I loaded it, my system asked if I want to configure it as a network |
| 10:09.18 | ewanm89_laptop | I compiled it in then. |
| 10:09.57 | *** join/#openmoko thomasg_ (n=thomasg@p57AFFE5A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:10.00 | gcb77 | did you re-build qemu after you compiled/loaded the modules? |
| 10:10.01 | ewanm89_laptop | usb0 network can be configured host side for a real neo. |
| 10:10.12 | ewanm89_laptop | gcb77: No, should I? |
| 10:10.20 | gcb77 | there was a note on the wiki about that |
| 10:10.30 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 10:10.57 | gcb77 | "It is important that this is done before building qemu because the build system checks if these headers are functional and in case they aren't found it will disable the USB Slave functionality." |
| 10:12.04 | *** part/#openmoko broedje (n=hellvis@p54B11AFB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:13.23 | *** join/#openmoko Moo^^ (n=moo@oul110-gw1.netplaza.fi) |
| 10:13.48 | Gorth2 | I've seem to run into problem quite when compiling (make openmoko-devel-image) |
| 10:13.50 | MickTaiwan | any neo1973 wallpapers yet ? |
| 10:13.51 | Gorth2 | http://pastebin.com/mde22257 |
| 10:15.01 | *** join/#openmoko some1_ (n=some1@p54A0C796.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:15.37 | SpeedEvil | The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. |
| 10:16.18 | gcb77 | Gorth2: you've looked at "http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile#Before_you_begin" |
| 10:16.31 | gcb77 | the "dash" problem? |
| 10:17.11 | *** part/#openmoko Freed (n=jecsar@mac33-2-82-225-98-209.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 10:17.24 | ewanm89_laptop | How so I get mokomakefile to redo build-qemu? |
| 10:18.28 | Gorth2 | gcb77: Yes, I have (I have run dpkg-reconfigure dash) |
| 10:18.34 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[BuggyOrders]] [[P1_Owners]] |
| 10:19.07 | gcb77 | ewanm89_laptop: Not sure if you want to go this far, but looks like "make clobber-qemu; make build-qemu" would do it |
| 10:19.32 | ewanm89_laptop | clobber, that's probably the one I'm looking for. |
| 10:20.01 | Gorth2 | gcb77: This is correct, right? "/bin/sh -> bash" |
| 10:20.17 | ewanm89_laptop | Gorth2: Yes |
| 10:20.18 | gcb77 | yes, should be using bash |
| 10:21.16 | gcb77 | Gorth2: I ran into some trouble when I was trying to build in other than /home/moko |
| 10:21.27 | Gorth2 | gcb77: Any other checks I can run to verify I have the correct setup? |
| 10:21.37 | Gorth2 | gcb77: Ahhh, I can try that.. |
| 10:22.04 | gcb77 | There was another note on the wiki about using absolute paths, under the Development section |
| 10:22.09 | gcb77 | not sure if it applies |
| 10:22.24 | gcb77 | The build takes ~10gb |
| 10:22.43 | gcb77 | I ended up creating a dedicated partition and mounting it under /home/moko |
| 10:24.18 | gcb77 | some nice wallpapers would be cool |
| 10:24.25 | ewanm89_laptop | I have it on my home partition at /home/moko/ |
| 10:24.40 | gcb77 | I'm using the openmoko.com pictures |
| 10:24.54 | ewanm89_laptop | Maybe a screen grab and a picture of a neo? |
| 10:25.09 | Gorth2 | gcb77: Thanks. I'm trying it out now. Let's see if it works. |
| 10:25.50 | SpeedEvil | I suspect that may have meant the other sort of wallpaper :) |
| 10:26.09 | SpeedEvil | Or I suppose for your PC too. |
| 10:26.26 | ewanm89_laptop | gadget_ep_parse: failed to configure gadgetfs: -16 |
| 10:26.28 | SpeedEvil | People with pictures of phones on their walls - back away slowly! |
| 10:26.56 | Linux_Galore | heh |
| 10:27.10 | gcb77 | ewanm89_laptop: that looks familiar... I remember seeing it |
| 10:27.33 | ewanm89_laptop | Shall I give usb0 an addr? |
| 10:27.37 | gcb77 | I think it may have been the permission problem |
| 10:28.00 | gcb77 | look at your shell output |
| 10:28.12 | ewanm89_laptop | Owned by me with read and write perms. |
| 10:28.25 | gcb77 | and you modprobed with the correct options? |
| 10:28.26 | ewanm89_laptop | That was from shell output. |
| 10:28.36 | ewanm89_laptop | Yes. |
| 10:28.46 | gcb77 | let me look through my notes |
| 10:29.07 | Linux_Galore | Today a new gadget cult was dispanded by authorities .... officer on scene " yes it started with a small mobile phone then they started putting wallpaper images of the device on their computers before anyone knew what was happening it turned into a gadget cult of the likes not seen since the iphone" |
| 10:30.02 | ewon | morning |
| 10:30.44 | ewon | heh, should have set up a procmail rule before subscribing to the openmoko list |
| 10:31.17 | ewanm89_laptop | gtg, bye |
| 10:31.44 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 10:32.27 | gcb77 | I'm out too ( 3:30 am here :) |
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| 10:50.50 | Linux_Galore | heh, make a sign from this and put it on the openmoko office front door http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=102464849&size=m |
| 10:52.58 | Stephmw | hahaha |
| 10:59.00 | *** join/#openmoko goloo (n=goloo@host105-200-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 11:01.59 | Linux_Galore | why Bill hates flying http://www.flickr.com/photos/colinj/18760940/in/set-442295/ |
| 11:02.32 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 11:04.06 | Linux_Galore | even better pic http://www.flickr.com/photos/mixn/805651718/ |
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| 11:08.48 | aloril | probably somebody who though (s)he would be getting end user device |
| 11:10.45 | *** topic/#openmoko by aloril -> wiki.openmoko.org <> Buy now for $300 from www.openmoko.com - Direct Link to Buy: https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping date projected at 2007-07-16 or later; If you ordered early, reply YES_I_DO or CANCEL to mail asking confirmation |
| 11:11.05 | aloril | (just to cover people who might be here and be mistaken ;-) |
| 11:11.22 | aloril | though.. maybe those won't read topic anyway :-( |
| 11:11.36 | wbx | aloril: hmm. what if i already ordered two openmoko's? one basic and one advanced? |
| 11:11.47 | ewon | what was the subject line of the confirm email btw? |
| 11:11.56 | wbx | aloril: this system doesn't allow to change the colors :} |
| 11:12.28 | Kensan | ewon: [rt.internal.openmoko.org #????] Your OpenMoko direct order |
| 11:12.28 | aloril | ewon: did https://direct.openmoko.com/ "WARNING: Developers only!" what it has now when you ordered? |
| 11:12.37 | wbx | aloril: it is not a big problem for me. |
| 11:12.39 | aloril | wbx: in that case use plain English, there is human at other side anyway |
| 11:12.58 | wbx | aloril: ah, okay. i used both methods :} |
| 11:13.16 | *** join/#openmoko BobOfDoo1 (i=nobody@61-69-24-191.netspeed.com.au) |
| 11:13.21 | wbx | i thought it will be scripted ;) |
| 11:13.35 | aloril | umm.. same color and you want both, then you just need YES_I_DO (and maybe ORANGE if you wanted that instead of default one) |
| 11:13.44 | aloril | its both I think |
| 11:13.56 | wbx | aloril: no, basic in black, advanced in orange :} |
| 11:13.57 | aloril | if you mail CANCEL, you will get immediate reply |
| 11:14.07 | aloril | wbx: OK, then you need English ;-) |
| 11:14.10 | wbx | aloril: to late. |
| 11:14.42 | *** join/#openmoko yveslu (n=yves@194.235.200.24) |
| 11:14.47 | ewon | aloril: yes |
| 11:14.49 | wbx | aloril: yes. i think I made it clear in my mail. we will see. anyway, black or orange, is just a color. i just want hardware to hack :} |
| 11:14.57 | aloril | (based on what one person who accidentally ordered twice, canceled bigger rt number) |
| 11:15.29 | aloril | and got instant reply for that CANCEL, there doesn't seem to be any automatic reply for YES_I_DO mails |
| 11:15.37 | wbx | aloril: no. that was to risky for me. i ordered tuesday, and I NEVER will cancel this ;) |
| 11:15.45 | aloril | neither me ;-) |
| 11:16.37 | wbx | does anybody know, if the openmoko team need help in system administration? |
| 11:16.39 | wbx | i heard there are sometimes problems with rt or mailman.. |
| 11:16.44 | *** topic/#openmoko by aloril -> wiki.openmoko.org <> Buy now for $300 from www.openmoko.com - Direct Link to Buy: https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping date projected at 2007-07-16 or later; If you ordered early, reply YES_I_DO (or CANCEL) to mail asking confirmation |
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| 11:20.36 | aloril | records: 343 nicks at 2007-07-09; 352 nicks at 2007-07-10; 364 nicks at 2007-07-12 |
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| 11:22.56 | Stephmw | hey woglinde, how goes it? |
| 11:23.05 | woglinde | he stephmw |
| 11:23.17 | woglinde | hm cacao suckz a little bit with crosscompiling |
| 11:23.40 | woglinde | and there was one who submitted recipes for it in the bugtracker at oe |
| 11:24.00 | woglinde | there is one file which must generated native under all circumstances |
| 11:24.58 | Stephmw | woglinde: if you have any problems with cacao, have a chat with twisti in #cacao, he's very responsive :) |
| 11:25.09 | woglinde | hehe |
| 11:25.19 | woglinde | yes he is the one who wrotes genoffset |
| 11:32.26 | Linux_Galore | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:34.35 | SpeedEvil | O! |
| 11:35.45 | *** join/#openmoko Dodji (n=dodji@torimasen.com) |
| 11:35.57 | aloril | if this rumor is true: 2007-07-14 05:28:23 <emacsen> like, the shipping unit doesn't have the libs you'll need to talk to the GSM daemon from the gui |
| 11:36.11 | aloril | comment at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1#Before_you_start makes sense (would make anyway, but ..;-) |
| 11:39.11 | Elrond | That SH1 page sounds like if they do not even ship gllin?! |
| 11:39.27 | aloril | hehe, OLPC starts much bigger than Neo1973: production starts once 3 million units ordered |
| 11:39.27 | Elrond | How is joe hacker supposed to get hold of it? |
| 11:39.49 | *** join/#openmoko minus1cjb (i=cjb@bob.nonado.net) |
| 11:40.01 | aloril | Elrond: 1) its in image but many will accidentally wipe it (just like with free P1 devices) |
| 11:40.06 | SpeedEvil | Wasn't there romours of BOGOF? |
| 11:40.16 | aloril | 2) you can download it from somewhere |
| 11:40.20 | Linux_Galore | Nouveau driver exceeds the 2D performence of the "binary only" Nvidia driver -> http://linuxupdate.blogspot.com/2007/07/nouveau-driver-2d-performance-exceeds.html |
| 11:40.32 | Elrond | BOGOF? |
| 11:40.33 | aloril | 3) 1) and 2) |
| 11:40.43 | SpeedEvil | Buy One Get One Free |
| 11:40.45 | aloril | hopefully 2) |
| 11:41.36 | Elrond | aloril - Yeah, I hope for (2). |
| 11:41.44 | aloril | SpeedEvil: rumor, then refutation, then 'maybe some future date' |
| 11:42.04 | Elrond | aloril - Well, SH1 says "May not even boot linux". Sounds much like "no rootfs, but at least a u-boot, so you can put kernel/rootfs on it" |
| 11:42.06 | SpeedEvil | I spose it depends on orders. |
| 11:42.08 | aloril | Elrond: gllin what was accidentally shipped is just test program I think? |
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| 11:42.17 | Linux_Galore | oops sorry Nvidia sponsored NV driver |
| 11:42.45 | Elrond | aloril - It's both: A test program and a full driver. |
| 11:42.59 | aloril | ah, ok |
| 11:43.24 | aloril | Elrond: so you can use it as library for gsmd? |
| 11:43.29 | Elrond | And it has some good points: It reseted my GLHH to a more sane state. |
| 11:43.56 | *** join/#openmoko docdoc (n=timoteus@d515323B9.access.telenet.be) |
| 11:44.09 | SpeedEvil | With results? |
| 11:44.10 | *** join/#openmoko sunrises (n=salvator@host103-30-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 11:44.16 | Elrond | aloril - s/gsmd/gpsd/ : Not really. It's a standaline executable, which gives NMEA on its own. I have not tried to connect gpsd to this NMEA stream. |
| 11:44.22 | SpeedEvil | It doesn't reset if you turn the power off to it? |
| 11:44.26 | aloril | option 4) its not in image and you can't get it somewhere is bad option, don't think think that will happen |
| 11:44.31 | docdoc | hello |
| 11:44.39 | SpeedEvil | docdoc: yes |
| 11:44.45 | docdoc | anyone has the neo already in hand |
| 11:44.51 | SpeedEvil | many. |
| 11:44.58 | SpeedEvil | None of the recent order |
| 11:45.04 | SpeedEvil | That may ship around 16th |
| 11:45.19 | aloril | Elrond: ah, then I would say its kind of test program that is also able to produce NMEA, not actual binary library that is meant to be used with gpsd |
| 11:45.34 | docdoc | does the dialer already work |
| 11:45.34 | SpeedEvil | You can trivially plug it into gpsd |
| 11:45.39 | sunrises | hi all, i'm trying to read my microSD with a USB adapter, it can be enough to load MMC drivers? |
| 11:45.40 | SpeedEvil | The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. |
| 11:45.42 | aloril | just in case you haven't seen: |
| 11:45.43 | docdoc | is there any apps already working |
| 11:45.43 | aloril | faq |
| 11:45.43 | aloril | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) |
| 11:45.54 | SpeedEvil | sunrises: you don't need to do that. |
| 11:45.56 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Reset: Well, after some playing the HH was in the following state: Reboot (even after leaving the main battery out for two days), then try to enable the HH for once: It gives only two zero bytes, turn it off, turn it on again: It works. |
| 11:46.10 | SpeedEvil | sunrises: you need usb-storage, scsi, sd-mod |
| 11:46.25 | SpeedEvil | sunrises: It appears like any other mass-storage device. |
| 11:46.33 | sunrises | SpeedEvil: ah..i think i missed sd-mod |
| 11:46.41 | sunrises | SpeedEvil: yes i notice it |
| 11:46.44 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - After running gllin a few times, it's back at: Turn neo on, start my tools, they work immediately. No two "cycles". |
| 11:46.46 | SpeedEvil | that's scsi-disk |
| 11:46.54 | SpeedEvil | not anything to do with secure digital |
| 11:47.02 | sunrises | SpeedEvil: ok |
| 11:47.05 | aloril | SpeedEvil: yes, but I think intention was that to use it as library and produce something nicer than NMEA, I might remember wrong tough |
| 11:47.06 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: odd |
| 11:47.20 | sunrises | with sd-mod you means all sd modules in kernel or right the sd-mod module? |
| 11:47.26 | SpeedEvil | aloril: I think much of the language on the wiki may me mine. |
| 11:47.37 | SpeedEvil | sunrises: sd-mod is scsi-disk |
| 11:47.45 | sunrises | ok..clear |
| 11:47.48 | sunrises | going to try |
| 11:47.52 | SpeedEvil | sunrises: you need the rest of the scsi modules, and the usb-storage module. |
| 11:48.04 | aloril | SpeedEvil: hmm..yes, but I remember hearing it from irc from core team member |
| 11:48.06 | sunrises | SpeedEvil: yes i have that cause i can mount usb |
| 11:48.11 | SpeedEvil | and of course the working USB subsystem |
| 11:48.19 | aloril | if it matters, I can try to hunt for it .. |
| 11:48.43 | Elrond | aloril - Yes, I heard that too. It was postponed indefinetely. |
| 11:48.50 | SpeedEvil | aloril: IIRC it was expressed as a 'binary plugin' to gpsd. |
| 11:49.08 | Elrond | Right. And that was AFAIK postponed. |
| 11:49.11 | *** join/#openmoko micktaiwan (n=faivrem@lan31-6-82-238-147-130.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 11:49.16 | SpeedEvil | aloril: Which the current program - with the appropriate script basically is. |
| 11:49.35 | SpeedEvil | You plug the output of gllin into a named pipe, and feed it into gpsd. |
| 11:49.44 | ewon | minus1cjb: *ping* |
| 11:50.18 | mjr | yeah, a plugin does not necessarily mean a library |
| 11:50.27 | minus1cjb | ewon: ah, there you ar. |
| 11:50.30 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - gllin already writes to a named pipe. The script needs to first start gpsd, so gpsd opens the read side of it first. (One has to open the read (listen) side first). |
| 11:50.41 | SpeedEvil | yeah - I know. |
| 11:52.00 | Elrond | I hope there will once be an update to gllin. Increasing its performance in bad signal situations. |
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| 11:56.07 | docdoc | gllin ? gps shell |
| 11:56.07 | aloril | docdoc: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 11:56.24 | Elrond | docdoc - gllin := binary driver for gps chip |
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| 12:06.03 | aloril | hey, here is one thing where some future hardware could provide something that AFAIC no other camera phone offers: INRA and/or UV |
| 12:07.37 | buz | sony cameras can do that |
| 12:07.37 | aloril | instead of bayer pattern, use something that provides more than just RGB |
| 12:07.42 | buz | it's not terribly useful |
| 12:08.04 | aloril | and Fuji too: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0707/07071304fujifilmispro.asp |
| 12:08.20 | aloril | yeah, I guess it doesn't go enough infra |
| 12:08.30 | ewon | this is insane: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2460&ProductName=GA-N680SLI-DQ6 |
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| 12:10.24 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@141.80-202-161.nextgentel.com) |
| 12:13.03 | docdoc | can i install a working app with ipkg |
| 12:13.09 | *** join/#openmoko webjames (n=james@82-46-37-48.cable.ubr01.nail.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 12:14.07 | docdoc | why is no app except dialing yet working although the source is available in angstrom |
| 12:14.42 | *** join/#openmoko meta_ (n=banyourm@dsl54009ED4.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 12:16.22 | docdoc | can i install source code from angstrom-distribution apps |
| 12:17.19 | Vegar | I think you can install ipkg packages |
| 12:17.23 | buz | ewon: i have made mostly bad experience with gigabyte |
| 12:17.43 | docdoc | ipkg and angstrom-distribution |
| 12:17.44 | docdoc | ? |
| 12:18.31 | docdoc | Vegar i known i can make packages for ipkg; is this possible for angstrom-distribution |
| 12:18.34 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Berlin]] [[Advertising]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Bucharest]] [[User:Csdexter]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Bucharest]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] |
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| 12:20.30 | aloril | openmoko is close to angstrom (or you can use angstrom instead) |
| 12:22.46 | Elrond | angstrom just uses EABI, while openmoko uses OABI. |
| 12:22.58 | Elrond | I hope gllin will be available for OABI once. |
| 12:23.21 | *** join/#openmoko Longfield (n=valentin@adsl-89-217-58-106.adslplus.ch) |
| 12:26.24 | *** join/#openmoko dcordes (n=erdinger@f048035155.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
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| 12:41.14 | dcordes | when can I find information for setting up my OE enviornment to build for openmoko? |
| 12:41.36 | *** join/#openmoko grgehunt (n=greg@dyn-62-56-49-5.dslaccess.co.uk) |
| 12:42.48 | dcordes | CM: can't find setting up oe guide there |
| 12:42.53 | zipola | dcordes, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko at the end of the page. |
| 12:43.02 | dcordes | ah that'S where I was. didn't see it |
| 12:43.15 | zipola | No problem :) |
| 12:45.11 | *** join/#openmoko waecky (n=waecky@p549CD506.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:47.06 | dcordes | "Download the OpenMoko metadata directory from svn" isn't that done via monotone? |
| 12:48.05 | cesarb | dcordes: did you try mokomakefile? |
| 12:48.16 | cesarb | dcordes: it does everything for you automatically |
| 12:48.27 | cesarb | dcordes: and even if you won't use it, you can look at it and see how it's done |
| 12:49.50 | dcordes | cesarb: thing is I already have OE set up for angstrom and don't want to mess up everything |
| 12:50.17 | dcordes | I'd like to be able to build for both machines. |
| 12:51.40 | cesarb | dcordes: anyways, take a look at mokomakefile... for instance, by looking at it, I can see it gets OE from mtn but the openmoko OE packages come from svn |
| 12:52.13 | cesarb | dcordes: (and note that openmoko uses a fixed old OE revision, instead of the equivalent of HEAD on monotone) |
| 12:53.15 | CM | Quite a list here: http://www.osimconference.com/newt/l/handsetsvision/osim/speakers.html |
| 12:53.17 | *** join/#openmoko bedboi (i=bedboi@151.83.0.162) |
| 12:54.20 | dcordes | cesarb: can't I build the whole system from scratch instead of downloading them? |
| 12:55.11 | CM | dcordes: http://downloads.openmoko.org/tmp/neo1973/ipk/ |
| 12:55.36 | *** join/#openmoko jpcass (n=chatzill@johnkerry.plus.com) |
| 12:55.44 | cesarb | dcordes: you mean the svn with the packages? they aren't compiled packages, they are the openmoko-specific .bb files for bitbake |
| 12:55.54 | dcordes | ah I see |
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| 12:56.19 | dcordes | I will use moko makefile to setup it up from scratch |
| 12:56.45 | CM | It takes a while to build, but I guess you know that already |
| 12:57.20 | dcordes | yep |
| 12:57.38 | dcordes | is there any reason why you use that old revision of OE? |
| 12:57.57 | *** join/#openmoko lrg (n=liam@lrg2.demon.co.uk) |
| 12:58.11 | CM | mickeyl is working on mergeing them together |
| 12:58.50 | CM | FIC thought that oe was too much of a moving target in the beginning, or something. |
| 12:59.48 | dcordes | I see |
| 12:59.58 | cesarb | CM: I'd say it was a good idea, since they didn't have to use time tracking a moving target and could concentrate on getting the hardware ready to ship... |
| 13:00.15 | cesarb | (of course, now that it's ready to ship, merging it upstream is a good idea too) |
| 13:00.30 | cesarb | s/merging it/merging it with/ |
| 13:02.36 | dcordes | rod's webiste seems to be down. Could somebody give me a mirror for moko makefile? |
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| 13:06.27 | jpcass | dcordes: try this: http://www.johnkerry.plus.com/Makefile |
| 13:07.55 | CM | :) |
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| 13:08.50 | dcordes | is it required to change that to make it download the right OE revision? |
| 13:09.31 | CM | No, that's already in there I think. OPENMOKO_MTN_REV = e2dbb52fe39df7ef786b6068f6178f29508dfded |
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| 13:10.40 | jpcass | dcordes: no, dont think so |
| 13:13.14 | dcordes | oh it also fetches an ancient version of bitbake |
| 13:14.01 | CM | How old? 1.8.6 for me |
| 13:15.53 | dcordes | nvm |
| 13:16.47 | dcordes | deoes the makefile do anything further after downloading OE? |
| 13:17.42 | jpcass | have you read the wiki? you can build the image with make openmoko-devel-image and run the emulator with make qemu |
| 13:17.58 | SpeedEvil | Is there an application prototype page in the wiki? |
| 13:18.12 | jpcass | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile |
| 13:18.33 | Elrond | Hi mickeyl ! |
| 13:18.40 | mickeyl | morning Elrond |
| 13:19.29 | SpeedEvil | Morning. |
| 13:19.32 | dcordes | jpcass: that's what I'm trying to do since I'm not one of the proud owners yet |
| 13:20.05 | Elrond | mickeyl - Is every developer busy scribbling addresses on packets or are they just hanging out in the sun at the swimming pool? ;o) (I'm just wondering, because nobody looked at my patch in bugzilla. ;o) ) |
| 13:20.13 | jpcass | dcordes: I got it working last night, its nice but slow (2.4Ghz core-2 duo) |
| 13:21.08 | *** join/#openmoko Tm_T (i=tm_travo@kde/developer/jkekkonen) |
| 13:21.48 | mickeyl | Elrond: there's a temporary shortage of developers currently, let alone developers who spend their time doing actual development. sorry, and please have some more patience. |
| 13:22.41 | Elrond | mickeyl - Hey, no problem. I was just wondering. One of the reasons I like to put patches in bugzilla is, so they wont ever get lost. |
| 13:22.47 | mickeyl | agreed. |
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| 13:24.56 | *** join/#openmoko Ophelia (n=Ophelia@p54B91AEB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 13:25.25 | sagacis | There. Done with the first build. |
| 13:25.32 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openstreetmap - that look sane? |
| 13:26.04 | Ophelia | Hi there ;-) |
| 13:28.00 | Ophelia | correct me if I'm mistaken, but you can use Neo's built-in GPS chip for providing new OSM-data, can't you? |
| 13:28.51 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 13:28.57 | dcordes | Ophelia: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openstreetmap |
| 13:28.59 | dcordes | ^^ |
| 13:29.17 | Ophelia | right |
| 13:29.32 | Ophelia | thanks, dcordes |
| 13:29.45 | dcordes | thank SpeedEvil |
| 13:30.00 | Ophelia | that was actually why I was asking ;-) |
| 13:30.11 | SpeedEvil | Just trying to work out the logical limits of this app. |
| 13:30.13 | *** join/#openmoko bedboi (i=bedboi@151.83.6.228) |
| 13:30.32 | Ophelia | which app? |
| 13:30.41 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openstreetmap |
| 13:31.42 | SpeedEvil | It could grow as far as a map display and editing and tracking, and live 'where users are' app, but I think it's logical to keep it moderately minimal. |
| 13:33.10 | Ophelia | I think it'd be nice if you can use it as a pocket GPS device |
| 13:33.27 | Ophelia | like a 'replacement' for the GoogleMaps-thing Apple has |
| 13:33.33 | Ophelia | the app I mean |
| 13:33.56 | dcordes | rwhitby: moko makefile is a fine thing :) |
| 13:34.25 | SpeedEvil | Ophelia: that's really a seperate app |
| 13:34.40 | SpeedEvil | Ophelia: show a map as the user wanders around. This is more for adding to the map. |
| 13:34.44 | Ophelia | BTW: my MacOS-port works :-) |
| 13:34.51 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 13:35.56 | Ophelia | 1st sentence: OSM; 2nd sentence: GoogleMaps? |
| 13:35.57 | Ophelia | reverse order |
| 13:36.34 | SpeedEvil | Sorry - what do you mean? |
| 13:37.05 | dcordes | where can I find a legend for the OSM? |
| 13:37.16 | SpeedEvil | legend? |
| 13:37.24 | SpeedEvil | 'In the beginning was the world...' |
| 13:37.29 | cjb_ie | dcordes: like a logo? |
| 13:37.40 | Ophelia | I mean, you said: "That's really a seperate app" |
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| 13:37.51 | Ophelia | which did you mean, SpeedEvil? |
| 13:38.06 | dcordes | I'm looking for a description of the several colours used for OSM routes |
| 13:38.13 | SpeedEvil | Ophelia: Adding to the map and showing existing maps is really a seperate application. |
| 13:38.15 | cjb_ie | Ophelia: openstreetmap is about creating maps collaboratively |
| 13:38.21 | dcordes | http://www.openstreetmap.org/ |
| 13:38.43 | SpeedEvil | Existing maps may be downloaded over GPRS, in the case of google-maps, for example. |
| 13:38.45 | dcordes | legend was a bad port from the german language :9 |
| 13:38.57 | cjb_ie | dcordes: ah, a key? |
| 13:39.01 | dcordes | yyep |
| 13:39.02 | SpeedEvil | key - I think may be the english you want. |
| 13:39.24 | SpeedEvil | Ophelia: for viewing, or openstreetmap data when there is nothing else. |
| 13:39.42 | cjb_ie | dcordes: that varies according to the renderer... |
| 13:39.43 | Ophelia | aha |
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| 13:40.16 | dcordes | cjb_ie: wouldn't it be better to have a common layout there? |
| 13:40.22 | cjb_ie | dcordes: it's rendered distributedly, and some of the renderers have different settings... |
| 13:40.33 | Ophelia | well, there should be an application that incorporates GoogleMaps, then ;-) |
| 13:41.08 | SpeedEvil | Ophelia: that's pretty obvious. It's complicated by the fact that google-maps doesn't legally allow you to cache the map tiles. |
| 13:41.11 | SpeedEvil | Which is a pity. |
| 13:41.16 | Ophelia | or the customized Maps from OSM |
| 13:41.28 | Ophelia | cannot we use those? |
| 13:41.32 | *** join/#openmoko matthew_ (n=matthew@adsl-210-182-79.sdf.bellsouth.net) |
| 13:41.36 | SpeedEvil | OSM - and I'm a contributor - is a joke. |
| 13:41.46 | SpeedEvil | For actual navigation purposes over most of the world. |
| 13:41.56 | *** join/#openmoko BlackBsd (n=brian@72.168.193.117) |
| 13:42.05 | SpeedEvil | It has places where it is usable for rough navigation. |
| 13:42.11 | Ophelia | since they're OpenSource |
| 13:42.18 | SpeedEvil | And very occasional hot-spots where it's actually good. |
| 13:42.18 | matthew_ | how's the battery life on phase1? |
| 13:42.38 | SpeedEvil | matthew_: almost irrelevant - much of the software isn't there to do powersave. |
| 13:42.52 | SpeedEvil | Hopefully there are no hardware bugs that would preclude it. |
| 13:43.41 | SpeedEvil | But practically - excepting places where governments or other bodies are releasing map data to OSM, and the hot-spots, it's going to be a decade at least before it can actually be used by most people. |
| 13:44.01 | SpeedEvil | For navigation like they would any other map. |
| 13:44.32 | SpeedEvil | As a trivial example, my local town of 40K was entirely missing. My local city of 140K had one road. |
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| 13:45.56 | SpeedEvil | matthew_: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Power_Management may be of use |
| 13:46.11 | matthew_ | thanks |
| 13:46.36 | matthew_ | i would probably get a phase1 if not for that problem. |
| 13:46.48 | SpeedEvil | It's not a hardware problem. |
| 13:46.57 | SpeedEvil | It's simply software - which will be fixed. |
| 13:47.16 | *** join/#openmoko ml8128_ (n=ml8128@223.105.100-84.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 13:47.30 | matthew_ | huh, might get one when that happens then. |
| 13:49.08 | *** join/#openmoko Magon_ (n=Magon@213.155.227.226) |
| 13:50.31 | Ophelia | hmm |
| 13:50.31 | Ophelia | why is that? |
| 13:50.34 | Ophelia | oh dear |
| 13:50.36 | Ophelia | hmm |
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| 13:52.50 | Stephmw | matthew_: the common case for all phones I have worked on (closed and otherwise) is that power management is left towards the end of other software development |
| 13:53.15 | Stephmw | matthew_: mostly because you really don't have much of an idea about power consumption until all the rest of the software is ready... including hardware drivers |
| 13:53.20 | matthew_ | oh, that's unfortunate. |
| 13:53.35 | matthew_ | i understand |
| 13:54.30 | Stephmw | imagine the worst case where someone leaves the camera switched on (bug, obviously) on HEAD... and then someone in power management bases calculations on that... woops, 10mins talktime :) |
| 13:55.01 | Stephmw | ... yes, camera wasn't a great example... none on the Neo :) |
| 13:55.52 | ckuethe | bluetooth+sd+gps in search mode, then. |
| 13:56.01 | ckuethe | and backlight |
| 13:56.09 | Stephmw | and Sieve |
| 13:56.10 | cesarb | Hm... that page says that the PMU IRQ can't do wake-up... wasn't it fixed before P1? |
| 13:56.45 | *** join/#openmoko drath_ (i=vmaster@p5B07DD0B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
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| 13:58.01 | cesarb | yeah, there's a conflict between http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Power_Management, which says the PMU IRQ can't do wake-up, and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware, which says it's one of the GTA01Bv3 errata (and below it says all GTA01Bv3 errata were fixed already) |
| 13:58.20 | matthew_ | i'm just afraid that buyers (who are developers) of phase0 and 1 and wasting most of their time trying to put a different OS on the phone, or trying to get the most complicated games to run, instead of the important stuff. |
| 13:59.05 | cesarb | matthew_: I'm guesstimating about half of the developer's time would be going on their own tangents, while the other half would be generally useful |
| 13:59.34 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@213.155.227.226) |
| 13:59.43 | cesarb | matthew_: I'm also guessing nobody will make a working Win32 DFU flasher before P2 |
| 13:59.56 | cesarb | (but then, these are only my wild guesses) |
| 14:00.54 | thomasg | whats a DFU flasher? |
| 14:01.42 | Ycros | matthew_, they can do whatever they please, such is the nature of FOSS - you cannot tell volunteers what to do |
| 14:02.11 | Ycros | matthew_, that's why sometimes the term "herding cats" is used to describe trying to run FOSS projects |
| 14:02.39 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@141.80-202-161.nextgentel.com) |
| 14:03.25 | cesarb | thomasg: DFU is the standard used for flashing in the bootloader... |
| 14:03.36 | cesarb | thomasg: on Unix, you'd use dfu-util |
| 14:05.07 | *** join/#openmoko MacNorth (n=daijobu@c-75-71-250-33.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 14:06.42 | thomasg | but a missing win32 version wouldn't be really a problem, would it? :) I mean, you cannot build openmoko on win32 (without a big effort) and for flashing the bootloader you'd need a development board, too. I don't think, that there will be many windows-developers :) |
| 14:08.29 | ckuethe | ie. the way to do this on windows is "first install vmware, then install some linux inside vmware..." |
| 14:09.09 | Elrond | thomasg - Not to mention, that the usbnet driver does not like windows. |
| 14:09.12 | cesarb | thomasg: some people on windows might want to update the kernel |
| 14:09.18 | cesarb | thomasg: or even the root fs |
| 14:09.24 | kristian-m | ckuethe some people are developing like that ;) - some companies even hand out vmware-images |
| 14:09.34 | cesarb | thomasg: to some NEW AND IMPROVED!!!111 version from the openmoko website |
| 14:09.48 | thomasg | ^^ |
| 14:10.17 | thomasg | well, at moment the neo is a pure geek-phone for unix-users, that won't change in the next time :) |
| 14:10.19 | ckuethe | i'll probably do that. |
| 14:10.29 | cesarb | thomasg: thus, for the non-developer version, a windows newbie-proof flasher is needed |
| 14:10.36 | ckuethe | since IDApro is much more comfortable under windows than linux |
| 14:10.47 | dcordes | I'm getting "U-boot failed to finish writing in setenv dontask y nand createbbt setenv bootcmd" on make qemu |
| 14:10.57 | dcordes | any ideas what might be wrong? |
| 14:11.02 | thomasg | cesarb, well, maybe that can be solved like it is on other embedded devices: a neo-internal flashing utility |
| 14:11.15 | ckuethe | half of my gps tools are win32 and i haven't got around to rewriting them for *nix |
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| 14:11.36 | Elrond | ckuethe - "gps tools"? |
| 14:11.45 | ckuethe | gps hacking is a hobby of mine |
| 14:11.59 | Elrond | ckuethe - What sort of hacking? |
| 14:12.13 | ckuethe | so i have the SiRF, ublox, trimble and FastraX eval kits installed on my wkstn |
| 14:12.32 | ckuethe | well, i'm one of the senior developers of gpsd, and a developer with openbsd |
| 14:12.44 | Elrond | ckuethe - ahh. :) |
| 14:12.54 | ckuethe | the two new time servers at ualberta.ca use a couple of ublox antaris4 receivers |
| 14:13.06 | ckuethe | serial + PPS to drive ntpd |
| 14:13.18 | Gorth2 | Building glibc2.5 seems to break: http://pastebin.com/d6b226b17 |
| 14:13.21 | ckuethe | but the usb interface is available for me to grab raw data to do postprocessing |
| 14:13.38 | ckuethe | i've got similar ambitions for my SiRF, trimble and itrax receivers |
| 14:13.39 | Gorth2 | Any way to work around this? |
| 14:13.58 | Elrond | ckuethe - One can get really raw data from sirf3s? |
| 14:14.03 | ckuethe | yes and no |
| 14:14.04 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: I've left a note on Harald's talk page - he added it. |
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| 14:14.16 | SpeedEvil | The whole page needs gone over by someone with schematics |
| 14:14.17 | ckuethe | you get pseudorange, but carrier phase is a custom option |
| 14:14.25 | ckuethe | you have to order a firmware that'll do that |
| 14:14.31 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: harald? isn't it better to let him rest? |
| 14:14.49 | SpeedEvil | Well - it doesn't need updated now - or by him. |
| 14:14.50 | ckuethe | SiRF seems to have realized that carrier phase is a value-add or something |
| 14:14.52 | Elrond | ckuethe - Ahh. I think, I saw the pseudoranges in the binary protocol. |
| 14:14.59 | ckuethe | yep, message 28 |
| 14:14.59 | SpeedEvil | But the number of peope with schematics are sharply limited. |
| 14:15.18 | SpeedEvil | Carrier phase would be lovely. |
| 14:15.19 | ckuethe | but to really be useful you also want carrier phase |
| 14:15.42 | Elrond | Yeah. |
| 14:15.46 | ckuethe | and you don't get that from sirf3 unless you buy the expensive firmware |
| 14:16.00 | SpeedEvil | But even integer carrier numbers from the HH would be fine. |
| 14:16.00 | Elrond | :-| |
| 14:16.06 | ckuethe | thus my interest in trimble, ublox and itrax that don't screw you around |
| 14:16.41 | Elrond | I'm still stuck with the HH. |
| 14:17.20 | sagacis | Argh. Where are the icons? |
| 14:17.48 | *** join/#openmoko MrFeetio (n=david@c-71-230-5-247.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 14:17.53 | ckuethe | i'm not sure if the ordering site even took my order. |
| 14:18.10 | ckuethe | i hit submit, and got a blank page back |
| 14:18.14 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Henrikw]] [[P1_Owners]] [[User_talk:HaraldWelte]] [[User:Joshki]] [[Openstreetmap]] [[Wish_List]] [[Application_UI_Design_Recommendations]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[SH1_FAQ]] [[BuggyOrders]] [[Main_Page]] [[Neo1973]] |
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| 14:18.18 | ckuethe | and no emails. |
| 14:18.22 | Elrond | ckuethe - You ordered a neo? Are you planning to also work on the HH? |
| 14:18.25 | ckuethe | yep |
| 14:18.29 | ckuethe | among other things |
| 14:18.57 | SpeedEvil | ckuethe: what's the status of online ionospheric modules |
| 14:19.02 | SpeedEvil | Freely available. |
| 14:19.04 | Elrond | ckuethe - Are you interested in connecting gllin to gpsd, or in decipherin the HH protocol? |
| 14:19.21 | SpeedEvil | connecting gllin to gpsd is a couple of lines of script. |
| 14:19.24 | ckuethe | SpeedEvil: there maybe be some useful code in gpstk |
| 14:19.41 | SpeedEvil | ckuethe: no - I mean data - not code. |
| 14:19.57 | ckuethe | and newer gpsd's can be driven from a file, a fifo or a device, so yes the interface there is easy |
| 14:19.57 | SpeedEvil | err |
| 14:20.02 | SpeedEvil | models, not models. |
| 14:20.08 | SpeedEvil | models, not modules |
| 14:20.21 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive_ (n=goxboxli@141.80-202-161.nextgentel.com) |
| 14:20.33 | ckuethe | i don't know of anyone with an open, online ionospheric model |
| 14:20.33 | matthew_ | Ycros: I know, people do what gets them the most attention. And people will get more attention for being the guy who got Quake to run on a phone than being the guy who brought the address book to stable. |
| 14:20.34 | Elrond | ckuethe - I hope you've seen sphyrna? |
| 14:20.44 | ckuethe | the faa has some fluffy graphs up |
| 14:21.02 | ckuethe | but i don't think those have nearly enough resolution to be useful |
| 14:21.11 | SpeedEvil | ckuethe: I mean actual stuff that will enable you to compute corrections at any given position at any given time. |
| 14:21.18 | noidd | 'lo |
| 14:21.19 | ckuethe | yes, i've see sphyrna. |
| 14:21.31 | Elrond | Okay. |
| 14:21.36 | Elrond | <-- off for some cake. |
| 14:22.11 | SpeedEvil | I'm wondering if a user-contributed model, using multiple-many Neo - or other devices with accurate psuedorange reporting contributing to a global model is needed. |
| 14:22.39 | ckuethe | also, RTCA DO-228A (IIRC) the signal-in-space isn't open... which means someone has to buy the spec |
| 14:23.05 | SpeedEvil | I don't mean the WAAS corrections. |
| 14:23.13 | ckuethe | just some generic model? |
| 14:23.22 | ckuethe | I do have the RTCM spec |
| 14:23.40 | SpeedEvil | I mean generating a model of the ionosphere as it is currently from all the stationary neos with a good view of the sky. |
| 14:23.53 | SpeedEvil | s/neos/suitable GPS devices/ |
| 14:24.18 | SpeedEvil | From everyone with a free net connection at the time. |
| 14:24.37 | ckuethe | that's something else i've been wanting to do with gpsd, etc. |
| 14:24.44 | Ycros | matthew_, for some people it is, but I don't think it has to be about attention at all. I could simply be about solving their own problems. |
| 14:25.16 | ckuethe | using devices with which we can get raw data, set up an open reference net |
| 14:26.35 | SpeedEvil | And in principle - with enough users - it could be quite dense indeed. |
| 14:26.38 | ckuethe | on a per-device basis, generating corrections doesn't seem to be that difficult. a number of high-end OEM boards can do it and they're only using ARM7 processors |
| 14:27.00 | SpeedEvil | No, as I understand it it's pretty much trivial. |
| 14:27.14 | ckuethe | so devices with well-knows positions, reporting back to a much more powerful collector could work |
| 14:27.18 | SpeedEvil | Nearby recievers have constant amounts subtracted from the ranges to any given satellite. |
| 14:27.34 | SpeedEvil | I'm not meaning known positions - I'm assuming unknown but stationary. |
| 14:27.57 | ckuethe | yeah, you could do some sort of survey-in procedure |
| 14:28.10 | SpeedEvil | Basically - user sticks phone into charging dock, and it contributes. |
| 14:28.16 | SpeedEvil | If it's got a free net connection. |
| 14:28.31 | ckuethe | after an hour, it contributes |
| 14:28.55 | SpeedEvil | You need an hour - if you are trying to get all the possible data. |
| 14:29.11 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: wouldn't most charging docks be in places with poor reception? |
| 14:29.21 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: like, several meters from the window? |
| 14:29.24 | ckuethe | you need 12 minutes if you are cold starting and need to get a full NAV message |
| 14:29.41 | ckuethe | cesarb: the antaris4 can get a lock inside my office |
| 14:29.51 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: maybe - it may not work well |
| 14:29.58 | SpeedEvil | ckuethe: AGPS |
| 14:29.58 | ckuethe | fully half the sky is obscured by the next building |
| 14:30.08 | ckuethe | and there's metal all around me |
| 14:30.08 | SpeedEvil | ckuethe: that's the other half of the equation. |
| 14:30.28 | SpeedEvil | ckuethe: this server can also do AGPS calculations and supply ephemerigs and almanacs. |
| 14:31.21 | ckuethe | it's my gut feeling that, to be really useful, an observer will have to be stationary long enough to run a precise point algorithm. only then will its contributions to a distributed error model be of any use |
| 14:31.54 | ckuethe | otherwise you might be dealing with multipath from cars outside, or the cat in the window, or .... |
| 14:32.59 | dcordes | and there's metal all around me |
| 14:33.16 | dcordes | sorry I'm just reading |
| 14:33.27 | sandos | I think that sounds about right. Im not sure how fast satellites move over the sky, but what if most of the sky is actually "distorted" in some location, such as having a big metal object in the way that is doing reflections |
| 14:33.45 | dcordes | you guys talking about OSM automation? |
| 14:33.48 | ckuethe | sandos: from down here, they move up to 0.5deg /min |
| 14:33.55 | SpeedEvil | dcordes: no |
| 14:33.58 | sandos | ok |
| 14:34.02 | SpeedEvil | dcordes: AGPS stuff |
| 14:34.09 | dcordes | what's that? |
| 14:34.17 | ckuethe | i've got some fun graphs showing multipath |
| 14:34.23 | SpeedEvil | ckuethe: it depends. |
| 14:34.23 | sandos | SpeedEvil: I've seen claims thay AGPS can help in urban canyons. Is this only for locking or? |
| 14:34.33 | sandos | I fail to see how it can ever affect reflections, for example |
| 14:34.38 | SpeedEvil | ckuethe: what we really need is lots of data from a few thousand units. |
| 14:34.46 | ckuethe | skyview is totally obscured, but there's this big, bright "reflected" patch |
| 14:34.55 | ckuethe | disturbingly strong, too... |
| 14:35.03 | SpeedEvil | Reflections are always delayed. |
| 14:35.06 | sandos | is that an experimental setup or? |
| 14:35.15 | SpeedEvil | In some cases you can use this to discard them. |
| 14:35.16 | sandos | is it an actual real location :) |
| 14:35.44 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS |
| 14:36.25 | SpeedEvil | ckuethe: then that will tell us the algorithms that can be used. It may even be practical to use mobile GPS. |
| 14:36.32 | SpeedEvil | We need numbers! |
| 14:36.41 | ckuethe | disturbing because after the reflection, the polarization would be reversed, and i'm supposed to get 3-5dB rejection of improperly polarized signals... and i was still getting 30+ db |
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| 14:37.16 | sandos | aha, and the polarization rejection is meant to dismiss reflections then? |
| 14:37.27 | SpeedEvil | It doesn't work much. |
| 14:37.42 | SpeedEvil | As recievers these days are sensitive enough to pick it up too. |
| 14:37.42 | sandos | I can imagine that. |
| 14:38.12 | ckuethe | but the hope is the receiver will prefer a strong, correctly polarized signal... on the grounds that it's not reflected |
| 14:38.25 | ckuethe | though it might be reflected an even number of times. |
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| 14:43.05 | matthew_ | is GPS software plausible? |
| 14:43.21 | ckuethe | sure |
| 14:43.29 | ckuethe | easy? no. |
| 14:43.50 | matthew_ | what hardware is necessary |
| 14:44.08 | *** join/#openmoko sagacis (n=mark@cpe-76-185-118-188.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 14:44.14 | ckuethe | i'd prefer to have fully open gps software, but i'll use the blob until such time as replacement software is necessary |
| 14:44.24 | ckuethe | my understanding is that all the bits are there already |
| 14:44.25 | sagacis | All right! Got the rootfs running now. |
| 14:44.59 | ckuethe | the hammerhead does the correlations, and feeds a software receiver running on the main cpu |
| 14:45.31 | matthew_ | does the moko OS have a normal linux file structure? |
| 14:45.39 | ckuethe | not unlike most other receivers... it's just that they have a little arm7 built in as the main cpu |
| 14:46.01 | matthew_ | i guess it would have to.. |
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| 14:46.48 | matthew_ | GPS would be nice but that sounds like a phase 3 or 4 thing. |
| 14:47.16 | ckuethe | as i understand it, the hardware is there already, and navigation solutions are provided by a closed-source binary |
| 14:47.30 | ckuethe | which then feeds gpsd |
| 14:47.58 | matthew_ | runs on a daemon? |
| 14:48.03 | matthew_ | sounds like a bad idea |
| 14:48.23 | ckuethe | yep |
| 14:48.29 | ckuethe | i don't think anyone likes it |
| 14:48.35 | ckuethe | but that's the way it currently is |
| 14:48.51 | ckuethe | which is why some people are figuring out how to fix that situation |
| 14:48.52 | ckuethe | but. |
| 14:48.53 | matthew_ | i'd rather not have to charge my phone twice a day, thank you very much ;) |
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| 14:49.31 | ckuethe | data protocol/format for the hammerhead will have to be reverse-engineered |
| 14:49.50 | ckuethe | what do all these bits mean, and what knobs do i have to play with |
| 14:50.46 | Vegar | wouldn't it be easier to reverse-engineer the gllin binary? |
| 14:50.58 | ckuethe | no doubt that will be part of the process |
| 14:51.00 | Vegar | that is, use the binary to figure out how the protocol works |
| 14:51.12 | ckuethe | see my comment in the scrollback about IDApro under windows ;) |
| 14:51.40 | *** join/#openmoko rd__ (n=rd@toi.yeu.phu.nu) |
| 14:51.55 | ckuethe | insert random rant about NDA protocol specs here |
| 14:52.17 | anrp | there is an itar issue as well ~_~ |
| 14:52.32 | ckuethe | idjits at NemeriX tried to tell me their protocol was proprietary and contained valuable IP... as if. |
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| 14:53.09 | anrp | well from their perspective the protocol has value |
| 14:53.14 | ckuethe | sure there are regulations to comply with |
| 14:53.19 | anrp | since for anyone to use it you have to pay them |
| 14:53.41 | ckuethe | no much value. SiRF, trimble, ublox and FastraX all have unencumbered documentation |
| 14:53.59 | anrp | huh? |
| 14:54.05 | anrp | ..are we talking about the same docs? |
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| 14:54.09 | ckuethe | protocol docs |
| 14:54.21 | anrp | there's two possible protocols though |
| 14:54.33 | ckuethe | this is what the chip outputs, this is what the fields mean, here's how to tune it to do this... |
| 14:54.38 | anrp | depending on the intelligence of the gps chipset |
| 14:54.39 | *** part/#openmoko LuitvD (n=luitvd@beigetower/luitvd) |
| 14:54.51 | anrp | either position fixes or barely-processed if data |
| 14:55.22 | anrp | position fixes are easy, almost any gps chipset with intelligence outputs NMEA |
| 14:55.34 | SpeedEvil | The HH has no intelligence. |
| 14:55.36 | ckuethe | i'm talking about the vendor protocols |
| 14:55.40 | SpeedEvil | That's all in the gllin binary |
| 14:55.40 | anrp | which is the problem D: |
| 14:55.59 | ckuethe | the ones that give you carrier, doppler, clock, pseudo, ephem.... |
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| 14:56.34 | ckuethe | nearly every consumer SiRF receiver i ever bought came with a copy of the protocol reference |
| 14:56.52 | ckuethe | every trimble receiver i ever bought came with a copy of the protocol reference (plus it's on the web) |
| 14:57.01 | ckuethe | every ublox receiver i ever bought came with a copy of the protocol reference (plus it's on the web) |
| 14:57.22 | anrp | ... they all have intelligence though |
| 14:57.27 | ckuethe | my itrax receiver didn't come with a copy of the protocol reference but it's on the web |
| 14:57.58 | ckuethe | yes, they're all kind of intelligent, but they still output raw data, and the vendor protocol is much nicer than NMEA |
| 14:58.01 | SpeedEvil | I think the other half of the issue is that they may consider the IP in the gllin binary important. |
| 14:58.28 | SpeedEvil | And knowing the docs of the HH would let you reverse engineer that. |
| 14:58.38 | SpeedEvil | The AGPS bit could actually be quite complex. |
| 14:58.44 | ckuethe | doubtful |
| 14:58.45 | SpeedEvil | If it can in fact get a position in a second. |
| 14:59.24 | matthew_ | what runs on-top of X.org as of right now? XDM? |
| 14:59.39 | ckuethe | if i understand AGPS correctly, it's 2 things: preloading ephemeris, and rough solutions from the telco |
| 14:59.39 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead/Protocol#Enhancements |
| 15:00.01 | SpeedEvil | ckuethe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGPS |
| 15:00.06 | SpeedEvil | there is a third thing |
| 15:00.24 | *** join/#openmoko Magon_ (n=Magon@213.155.227.226) |
| 15:00.28 | SpeedEvil | The AGPS server has a good view of the sky. And lots of compute power. |
| 15:00.43 | SpeedEvil | It knows the current nav messages being sent, ... |
| 15:00.43 | ckuethe | and net. |
| 15:01.06 | ckuethe | it's feasable for the carrier to do this... since they can treat it as management traffic |
| 15:01.08 | SpeedEvil | This can enable it to give much more rapid positions than the device could alone. |
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| 15:01.20 | SpeedEvil | In principle - we can't do that though probably. |
| 15:01.30 | SpeedEvil | The modem only gives us high level access. |
| 15:01.35 | ckuethe | but if we had to have mokos talk to a network of servers, that would be lots of data $$$$ |
| 15:01.52 | SpeedEvil | Not really. |
| 15:02.09 | ckuethe | well, i saw the bandwidth estimates |
| 15:02.16 | SpeedEvil | Once you get dense enough results in an area, you tell any new contributors no thanks. |
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| 15:02.43 | SpeedEvil | For what? |
| 15:02.58 | ckuethe | downloading ephemeris, etc. |
| 15:03.04 | ckuethe | ooh! point of interest |
| 15:03.26 | SpeedEvil | You will almost never need to download ephemeris. |
| 15:03.27 | SpeedEvil | IMO. |
| 15:03.39 | SpeedEvil | Unless the GPS has been indoors for weeks. |
| 15:03.41 | ckuethe | i saw a paper that said that a recently expired ephemeris is just as good (if not better) than an almanac |
| 15:03.46 | galexande | hahaha xdm |
| 15:04.03 | galexande | a whole world, an undiscovered country: the 1990s |
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| 15:04.30 | galexande | speed, you mean almanac? |
| 15:04.30 | SpeedEvil | What you might need is immediate correction data - which will run some 256 bytes or under. |
| 15:04.35 | ckuethe | you'll need to get an ephemeris if you haven't had a fix in a few hrs |
| 15:04.38 | SpeedEvil | galexande: the 12.5K one. |
| 15:04.45 | ckuethe | they're recalculated quite often |
| 15:04.57 | galexande | ephemeris = ephemeral = just for a moment |
| 15:04.59 | ckuethe | the almanac is valid for a full week |
| 15:05.05 | ckuethe | but degrades gracefully |
| 15:05.24 | SpeedEvil | Say a million Neos. |
| 15:05.28 | galexande | but if you keep the gps chipset powered down when you're not looking at its output, won't the almanac age out? |
| 15:05.33 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 15:05.43 | SpeedEvil | The GPS chipset holds no data internally almost. |
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| 15:05.45 | ckuethe | and the ephemeris, being a better data set to start with, can be used in place of the almanac |
| 15:05.51 | galexande | yeah, but it would never get updated.. |
| 15:05.59 | SpeedEvil | The only benefit in keeping it semi-powered-up is to keep its own internal clock going. |
| 15:06.08 | SpeedEvil | Which is a high accuracy one. |
| 15:06.15 | ckuethe | my understanding is that that the hammerhead is just hardware correlators. helps pull the CDMA out of the sky |
| 15:06.18 | SpeedEvil | It stores no data internally. |
| 15:06.22 | SpeedEvil | ckuethe: pretty much. |
| 15:06.24 | ckuethe | everything else has to be done onthe cpu |
| 15:06.25 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead/Protocol#Enhancements |
| 15:06.36 | galexande | i just hope there is a good way to get agpsd to do the right thing, and download the almanac/ephemeris automatically every now and then when i'm not paying attention |
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| 15:06.47 | galexande | from the satellites |
| 15:06.48 | SpeedEvil | As I understand it - powering up for 1s every 3 mins or so - with a good view of the sky - should be fine. |
| 15:06.49 | ckuethe | SpeedEvil: you guys have all the classic texts on software gps? |
| 15:06.49 | mjr | galexande, the almanac doesn't age that quickly, though yes, it's useful to have it on sometimes if you don't get assist data |
| 15:07.04 | galexande | yeah, i'm trying to avoid unnecessary gprs traffic |
| 15:07.08 | SpeedEvil | To keep the clocks in line with the satellites. |
| 15:07.15 | ckuethe | 1-5s / 3-5min should keep the clock set properly |
| 15:07.26 | SpeedEvil | You need to be within .3ms or so. |
| 15:07.39 | SpeedEvil | To get the right edge of the satellites. |
| 15:07.53 | SpeedEvil | edge of the chip sequence that is. |
| 15:07.55 | Qwell | I looked on the wiki, but couldn't find anything.. Is there a list of software projects that *must* get done before a v2 "production" release? |
| 15:08.07 | SpeedEvil | Qwell: it's not been stated. |
| 15:08.07 | galexande | ckuethe, i sure don't. if you could put a list of citations into http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS you would be a hero of some sort to me |
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| 15:08.23 | ckuethe | a full sirf ephemeris packet is 91 bytes |
| 15:08.33 | galexande | qwell, no we can all decide that |
| 15:08.47 | SpeedEvil | I've written this up - the requirements - in the AGPS page on the enhancements bit. |
| 15:08.50 | galexande | probably in september we'll look at our phones and say "i wouldn't show this to my mom, let alone a customer" |
| 15:08.58 | galexande | "because it's lacking a ___" |
| 15:09.03 | Elrond | Qwell - There is a meta bug for this. |
| 15:09.16 | Qwell | Elrond: happen to know the #? |
| 15:09.42 | Qwell | if I'm gonna write code, it might as well be something useful :) |
| 15:09.52 | MobileCat | is there any news on shipping? |
| 15:09.52 | aloril | MobileCat: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 15:10.06 | ckuethe | a ublox ephemeris is 104B |
| 15:10.11 | galexande | mobile, look they told us it will ship on the 16th at the soonest, and it is the 14th, so hold your horses |
| 15:10.38 | Elrond | Qwell - #341 |
| 15:10.40 | SpeedEvil | ckuethe: some of the AGPS stuff - the 'remote station has better knowledge' can be computed with smart enough software. For example, instead of dumbly turning on the reciever and waiting for an ephimerides, you turn it on for 1s when you can predict the bitstream from all satellites, to keep synced to them. |
| 15:10.43 | Qwell | Elrond: thanks |
| 15:11.05 | SpeedEvil | ckuethe: then occasionally turn on for long enough to get the ephemirides. |
| 15:11.19 | MobileCat | i know.i'm justnot at a pc for 3days. just wonderin is all |
| 15:11.45 | ckuethe | 30s should be enough for the ephemeris |
| 15:11.46 | Elrond | MobileCat - no news on shipping. |
| 15:12.05 | ckuethe | gotta go check my copy of ICD-GPS-200C for the transmission schedule |
| 15:12.12 | SpeedEvil | yes - 30s is plenty. Battery power is finite, you want the thing off as much as you can unless the user has asked for live tracking. |
| 15:12.15 | MobileCat | ta anyway. |
| 15:13.13 | Elrond | Well, all of this is very theoretical, as we don't understand enough of the protocol yet. |
| 15:13.20 | ckuethe | for sure. like i say... gotta check the transmission schedule to see how often i need to listen for a new ephemeris, and the least amount to time i can listen to be sure i've got it |
| 15:13.21 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 15:13.58 | Elrond | And gllin is not really good at this stuff. |
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| 15:25.20 | jadams | holy crap I'm eager for the dang thing to come |
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| 15:31.37 | happycube | ditto :) |
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| 15:32.07 | zecke | mickey|slides: hey |
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| 15:56.59 | aloril | ckuethe: use 2 letter upper case code in order page |
| 15:57.29 | ckuethe | ? |
| 15:57.46 | aloril | ckuethe: you said you got blank page when you tried to order Neo1973? |
| 15:58.07 | ckuethe | yes |
| 15:58.36 | galexande | ckuethe, he means for state |
| 15:58.49 | ckuethe | ah |
| 15:58.54 | ckuethe | i'll try that |
| 15:59.00 | SpeedEvil | If you've had no email - as I understand it the current recommendation is to order again, and note the fact that this is a duplicate in the notes list |
| 15:59.20 | aloril | order page probably should have: s/(uppercase in US)/(2 letter uppercase in US)/ |
| 15:59.42 | galexande | so the microsoft coffee table does run linux? |
| 15:59.44 | aloril | roh: can you do above change? |
| 16:00.09 | aloril | SpeedEvil: well, getting blank page means nothing happened, its just 'error page' |
| 16:00.33 | aloril | SpeedEvil: getting order accepted, but not getting automatic rt ticket reply -> could take even day before you get one |
| 16:01.09 | aloril | SpeedEvil: so far I think "black page" -problem has been fixed when physical address has been fixed |
| 16:01.34 | *** join/#openmoko andylockran (n=andylock@82-36-184-134.cable.ubr03.soli.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 16:05.28 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
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| 16:09.39 | galexande | ah, good, this is not a micrrosoft coffee table, but rather a MERL coffee table |
| 16:10.17 | ewanm89_laptop | Does it run linux? |
| 16:10.56 | galexande | the merl diamondtouch is just a display |
| 16:11.03 | galexande | so sure :) |
| 16:11.14 | galexande | it looks like about 30" lcd with multitouch |
| 16:11.17 | aloril | ckuethe: got order trough? |
| 16:11.36 | ewanm89_laptop | s/tr/thr/ |
| 16:11.43 | *** join/#openmoko gresh (n=christop@Mcd56.m.pppool.de) |
| 16:11.43 | Jason1 | galexande: I did a little research on those things. The build-your-own "FTIR" tables are very interesting |
| 16:11.58 | galexande | if only i had a grand to blow on a 30" lcd :) |
| 16:12.51 | Jason1 | ewanm89_laptop: can you clue me in as to what "s/tr/thr/" means? |
| 16:13.51 | Jason1 | galexande: http://dundee.cs.queensu.ca/wiki/index.php/Building_a_Multi-Touch_Sensitive_Table |
| 16:13.56 | ewanm89_laptop | substitute tr for thr, sed syntax ("man sed" for more). |
| 16:14.40 | galexande | oh, that's clever |
| 16:15.01 | Jason1 | ewanm89_laptop: ahh. I see it alot here. Clueless as to what it meant. Thanks! |
| 16:15.59 | aloril | hmm.. "(uppercase in US)" disappeared from direct.openmoko.com page, I wonder if that means lower case is now automatically uppercased? |
| 16:16.32 | aloril | also I wonder if it now works with full name instead of only 2 letter code? (for State) |
| 16:16.32 | ewanm89_laptop | Jason1: It's our way of correcting errors, if it was the same person the bot (apt) actually does the substutution. |
| 16:16.37 | ewanm89_laptop | s/tut/tit/ |
| 16:16.45 | ewanm89_laptop | see ^^ |
| 16:17.54 | Jason1 | ewanm89_laptop: see, I don't make mistakes, sooo.... |
| 16:18.01 | Jason1 | :) |
| 16:18.10 | aloril | latest SH1_FAQ edit might interest you: http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=SH1_FAQ&diff=11797&oldid=11796 |
| 16:18.15 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Main_Page]] [[User:HaraldWelte]] [[Application_UI_Design_Recommendations]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Virginia]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] |
| 16:18.25 | ewanm89_laptop | Jason1: You never make a typo? |
| 16:18.38 | Jason1 | ewanm89_laptop: nope. never :) |
| 16:18.53 | ewanm89_laptop | Then you must be a very clever bot. |
| 16:19.02 | Jason1 | ewanm89_laptop: LOL |
| 16:19.08 | *** join/#openmoko _MacNorth (n=daijobu@c-75-71-250-33.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 16:19.17 | galexande | ewan, you're talking to the guy with order #1820 |
| 16:19.19 | galexande | i'd believe he doesn't make mistakes |
| 16:19.20 | aloril | for example: "The first orders are due to be processed on Monday, July 16, 2007." |
| 16:19.26 | Jason1 | ewanm89_laptop: Pretty cool stuff... |
| 16:19.39 | aloril | sounds like they are in schedule |
| 16:20.15 | happycube | :( |
| 16:20.24 | ewanm89_laptop | Do they accept paypal? |
| 16:20.28 | happycube | having trouble finding a good bt 2.0edr class 1 usb thingie |
| 16:20.29 | Jason1 | aloril: Where did you read that? |
| 16:20.54 | galexande | happy, just buy 5 cheap ones of different brands, one of them is bound to work :) |
| 16:21.03 | happycube | i can't even find cheap ones ;) |
| 16:21.03 | aloril | Jason1: scroll a bit upwards (about latest SH1_FAQ edit ...) |
| 16:21.04 | *** join/#openmoko nosyjoe (n=philipp@p5497E33B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:21.11 | happycube | newegg only has a $28 kensington |
| 16:21.27 | happycube | might have to go ebay |
| 16:22.37 | aloril | this is also interesting, seems he is doing almost everything: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:HaraldWelte |
| 16:22.45 | *** part/#openmoko jimp (n=jim@NEUROSIS.MIT.EDU) |
| 16:23.00 | Jason1 | aloril: Excellent. Looks like I may have my device on Tuesday/Wednesday! |
| 16:23.00 | happycube | awesome |
| 16:23.00 | happycube | zzf dosen't have any bt 2 |
| 16:23.18 | Jason1 | aloril: poor guy |
| 16:23.33 | happycube | no wonder why he was cracking :( |
| 16:23.39 | happycube | i didn't know he put up the webshop |
| 16:24.43 | galexande | heh, when i pointed my girlfriend at the YES_I_DO email and said "this is what happens when kernel hackers run ecommerce" I didn't realize I wasn't exaggerating |
| 16:25.11 | aloril | hehe |
| 16:25.47 | aloril | maybe he couldn't put warning up initially.. that could annoy when you know not all customers might realize it |
| 16:26.16 | galexande | i think he just doesn't have a clear vision of what the website ought to look at so he's just responding to a bunch of random pressures and visions from different directions |
| 16:26.46 | Jason1 | happycube: and had to deal with all the bugs when we all started hitting it like crazy |
| 16:26.50 | aloril | galexande: umm... maybe, but I think he would have made warning clear from start.. well I'm guessing of course |
| 16:27.03 | Sup3rkiddo | any idea how long it takes to create devices which were ordered after the initial 1000 |
| 16:27.37 | galexande | aloril, he probably had someone breathing down his shoulder to make it look official |
| 16:27.49 | *** join/#openmoko steffenk (n=frost@p54B1EB7B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:27.59 | galexande | in fact, from teh look of it, he porbably had to use site design from a graphic artist, and didn't have any freedom in how it looked |
| 16:28.16 | galexande | it's real easy to get boxed in a corner if you're doing professional website development and don't want to be |
| 16:28.30 | Jason1 | Sup3rkiddo: hard to say. depends on when FIC authorizes the next batch. Maybe, they have already started building them... |
| 16:28.42 | galexande | everything harald wants to say about the device he's already said in his blog, or on the wiki, or in source |
| 16:28.54 | galexande | so the website is just so much bs between him and making openmoko |
| 16:29.11 | aloril | faq |
| 16:29.11 | aloril | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) |
| 16:29.18 | Sup3rkiddo | Jason1, you dont talk to me :S...you hitting-refresh-once-every-1-second dude =) |
| 16:29.36 | Jason1 | Sup3rkiddo: LOL |
| 16:29.38 | aloril | Sup3rkiddo: see SH1_FAQ |
| 16:29.59 | aloril | "Are there enough phones for the number of orders? Will FIC produce another GTA01 batch if needed? Of course. Please note that there is a lead time of four to six weeks. " |
| 16:30.25 | Sup3rkiddo | Jason1, i bet you appended "1" to to your nick just to piss me off :P |
| 16:30.43 | Jason1 | Sup3rkiddo: hehe |
| 16:30.56 | Sup3rkiddo | aloril, oh dang i have to wait a month more than the other guys, and if it get stuck at customs..brrr |
| 16:31.28 | galexande | should have been the 22nd order like me, superkiddo :) |
| 16:31.41 | aloril | Sup3rkiddo: I don't know where that is counted, it could be counted from start of this week ... |
| 16:31.53 | Sup3rkiddo | hmmm |
| 16:31.58 | Jason1 | I wonder how FIC decided to build 1000 units. Seems like a shot in the dark. Kinda surprised that they have sold as many developer phones as they have... |
| 16:32.01 | galexande | i bet they'll wait until they get some YES_I_DOs before they build more |
| 16:32.23 | *** part/#openmoko Tyrael (n=tyrael@213-140-6-114.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 16:32.49 | Sup3rkiddo | galexande, bah, actually i kinda put off the order and wanted to get the order number 1973, i under estimated it now my order is like some 1200th |
| 16:32.56 | galexande | heheheheh |
| 16:33.05 | Jason1 | galexande: The last thingthey want is a bunch of PH1 laying around when PH2 hits the streets |
| 16:33.30 | galexande | jason, i'm not sure...i really think the gta01 at the $300 price point is the more attractive device if they were both offered simultaneously |
| 16:33.34 | *** join/#openmoko sagaci2 (n=sagacis@cpe-76-185-118-188.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 16:34.19 | galexande | and the gta01s on ebay will produce more developers |
| 16:34.26 | Jason1 | galexande: thats true, maybe wifi and the cpu+, etc isnt that much of a benifit |
| 16:35.14 | galexande | i want an accelerometer though :( |
| 16:35.22 | Jason1 | galexande: heck no, I am going to carry them both around with me. Ill put them all around my neck like Marti Gras beads |
| 16:35.28 | galexande | hahahaha' |
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| 16:37.39 | ewon | heh, just got a reply from openmoko |
| 16:37.48 | ewon | no record of my original order :) |
| 16:37.58 | ewon | think I'll just wait for GTA02 now |
| 16:38.03 | Jason1 | ewon :( that sucks |
| 16:38.15 | ewon | *shrugs* |
| 16:38.29 | ewon | doubt I'd get in on the 1st run of gta01 at this stage, and would be waiting ages |
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| 16:39.37 | ewanm89_laptop | ewon: There is quite a few people who haven't order yet. |
| 16:40.22 | *** join/#openmoko denis^da (n=denis@p5492BD3A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:42.40 | aloril | Jason1: I was not surprised, I predicted at least 10x of Buying_interest page |
| 16:43.33 | Jason1 | aloril: Is anyone keeping track of RT #s anymore? What are we up to? |
| 16:44.14 | aloril | Jason1: haven't seen any recent numbers |
| 16:44.39 | Qwell | aloril: just make the hardware free - problem solved :p |
| 16:44.48 | mjr | well, the GTA01B_v04 should have been $350, so only $100 cheaper |
| 16:44.49 | Qwell | except for the whole losing money thing...that might not sit well with FIC :) |
| 16:44.56 | aloril | anybody ordered today and can provide 2 first numbers from rt ticket? |
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| 16:45.57 | Jason1 | aloril: It was around 3500 a couple days ago, i recall |
| 16:46.08 | *** part/#openmoko sagaci2 (n=sagacis@cpe-76-185-118-188.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 16:46.27 | aloril | Jason1: yes, but dunno how many new since that time, maybe few hundred? |
| 16:48.19 | aloril | counter_msg (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in |
| 16:48.19 | aloril | aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in |
| 16:48.43 | aloril | (updated with that SH1_FAQ edit) |
| 16:48.44 | aloril | counter |
| 16:48.44 | aloril | (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 2 days 19:11:16 (2.799±1.0 days) (1739;246) |
| 16:50.04 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=huhh@dsl5402A14A.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 16:50.18 | *** join/#openmoko sagacis (n=mark@cpe-76-185-118-188.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 16:50.48 | MetaMorfoziS | erhm |
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| 16:52.19 | SpeedEvil | ewon: there will probably be a moderate number of people dropping out. |
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| 17:08.12 | orospakr | hm, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile seems to tell you to wget the Makefile off a server called rwhitby.net, but it's down. |
| 17:10.27 | *** join/#openmoko k-s[AWAY] (n=gustavo@20150239155.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
| 17:19.00 | Kensan | orospakr: try http://www.johnkerry.plus.com/Makefile |
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| 17:20.32 | orospakr | Kensan: thanks. :) |
| 17:20.40 | orospakr | why on earth isn't it on openmoko.org, though? |
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| 17:24.29 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@62-50-199-121.client.stsn.net) |
| 17:26.56 | ewanm89_laptop | All see this: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1xXNoB3t8vM&mode=related&search= |
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| 17:35.21 | dcordes | ewanm89_laptop: nice :) |
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| 18:18.16 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_Phase_1]] [[P1_Owners]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_North_Texas]] [[Stylus_mount]] [[Removal_of_free_space]] [[General-purpose_buttons_%28side-mounted%29]] [[Extra_battery]] [[Talk:Extra_battery]] |
| 18:20.07 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@p508D8093.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:20.53 | aloril | hmm... interesting: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Phase_1 |
| 18:22.04 | cesarb | interesting indeed |
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| 18:28.02 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: re bug 258. Thanks, it's indeed the right way do go. I just not updated the bug, sorry. |
| 18:28.07 | cesarb | What *I* wonder is if I can use my Razr charger with the neo |
| 18:28.36 | cesarb | without having to hand-enable the 500mA charge mode |
| 18:32.10 | *** join/#openmoko njpatel (n=njp@5ac04783.bb.sky.com) |
| 18:33.48 | ckuethe | Elrond: ping? |
| 18:35.36 | ckuethe | aloril: thanks for the tip. using the 2 letter abbreviation helps |
| 18:36.45 | aloril | ckuethe: good, can you tell what were 2 first numbers of you order rt ticket? (just curious about number of orders, first number is #1820) |
| 18:37.19 | ckuethe | why they didn't use "size=2 maxlength=2" in the field spec |
| 18:37.30 | ckuethe | is beyond me |
| 18:38.13 | aloril | ckuethe: maybe because its international page? |
| 18:39.13 | ckuethe | if it's going to enforce a restriction, it should be a little more clear about it. |
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| 18:44.48 | cesarb | I used my full city/state name (no abbreviations, mixed case) and it seemed to work fine... |
| 18:45.30 | cesarb | (but then, it's a "last-minute hack webshop" after all) |
| 18:46.53 | ckuethe | how hard is it to lowercase $state and then look it up in %states2abbrev |
| 18:47.33 | ckuethe | then you can write any of Alabama, Alberta or AB and it'll just work |
| 18:47.54 | ckuethe | </steve_jobs_ui_rant> |
| 18:48.37 | cesarb | ckuethe: have you ever had to finish a website just before the deadline's up, after working on it for several months? |
| 18:48.53 | cesarb | ckuethe: you can't even *think* straight, much less do a correct UI |
| 18:49.09 | cesarb | ckuethe: it will fatally go live with several broken edges |
| 18:50.07 | ckuethe | no, but i have had other "oh shit we needed this last week and we're losing money,etc!" projects |
| 18:50.36 | ckuethe | so for all my whining, i'm still gleefully ordering a dev kit |
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| 18:53.14 | Jason1 | cesarb: not to mention that they under-estimated server load |
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| 18:53.40 | ckuethe | mr slashdot is nobody's friend |
| 18:53.49 | cesarb | Jason1: ah, but the server load was unavoidable. they probably already knew it would crash. |
| 18:54.07 | cesarb | Jason1: but designing for slashdot would be overkill 99% of the time |
| 18:54.21 | cesarb | Jason1: and the target users know what "slashdot effect" means and would wait, so no real loss |
| 18:54.28 | ckuethe | true |
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| 18:54.45 | Jason1 | cesarb: You gotta have some sort of plan. THey lost the cart, email, the list, the wiki....just about everything |
| 18:55.12 | cesarb | Jason1: you mean "wait until the storm has passed" isn't a plan? ;-) |
| 18:55.33 | Jason1 | cesarb: not in my mind. of course, that is typically how it ends up :) |
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| 19:04.54 | aloril | maybe there was simply very little time to do it? |
| 19:05.08 | aloril | among all other stuff that needed to be done |
| 19:06.12 | happycube | it looks like the admin got as /.'ed as the servers did |
| 19:06.40 | *** join/#openmoko dennisharrison (n=dennisha@71-81-37-101.dhcp.slid.la.charter.com) |
| 19:09.01 | dennisharrison | dev version doesn't have 802.11g right? |
| 19:09.27 | ewanm89_laptop | dennisharrison: No, only the october one has wifi. |
| 19:09.35 | dennisharrison | bummer |
| 19:09.56 | dennisharrison | I want one now, but don't have a valid reason until I can get at least wifi on it :) |
| 19:10.01 | cesarb | dennisharrison: setup bluetooth pan and pretend it's wifi ;-) |
| 19:10.33 | *** join/#openmoko nosyjoe (n=philipp@ppp-88-217-10-233.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 19:10.37 | happycube | i ordered a few wifi adapters at dealextreme - i wonder if they'll work ;) |
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| 19:11.02 | cjb | hm. are there bluetooth wifi adaptors? |
| 19:11.09 | dennisharrison | cesarb, true, but my main reason to join in on the dev is to get this thing working in call center environs |
| 19:11.22 | happycube | no - if you have a linux server of some sort you can set up a bridge though |
| 19:11.29 | dennisharrison | cjb, I have not seen a specific device for that, but certainly you could work something out |
| 19:11.36 | cjb | surprising. |
| 19:11.59 | dennisharrison | cjb, well, I happen to think bluetooth should be replaced by wifi in almost every instance |
| 19:12.10 | cjb | it could even just be a gumstix board running Linux or something. |
| 19:12.13 | *** join/#openmoko dantalizing (n=dan@wsip-70-184-147-28.ga.at.cox.net) |
| 19:12.34 | dennisharrison | but that goes into a whole other train of thought that would bring us right back around to ipv stuff |
| 19:12.34 | cjb | with bluetooth and wifi radios, and a jog dial for choosing SESID. |
| 19:12.36 | cesarb | dennisharrison: isn't the whole advantage of bluetooth that it's low power? (compared to wifi) |
| 19:12.48 | dennisharrison | cesarb, yes that is a complete and total advantage |
| 19:13.35 | dennisharrison | but I think the technical advantages of 802.11* far outstripe that |
| 19:14.09 | *** join/#openmoko Ophelia (n=Ophelia@p54B91AEB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:14.17 | cjb | http://www.blueunplugged.com/p.aspx?p=105816 looks ideal but discontinued. |
| 19:14.19 | dennisharrison | cjb, you could even use a modified buffalo with the optional cf slot and bluetooth adapter and load *wrt on it and get away with what you want |
| 19:14.29 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 19:14.37 | cjb | dennisharrison: well, I'd want something that can be carried around with the Neo, ie. no bigger than it |
| 19:14.48 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 19:14.49 | cjb | Neo in one pocket, bridge from bt to wifi in the other. |
| 19:14.55 | dennisharrison | :) |
| 19:15.02 | dennisharrison | thats a lot of 'hot pantsing' |
| 19:15.27 | dennisharrison | well, yeah I would rather have it all on the phone :) |
| 19:15.31 | *** join/#openmoko MadCowBoy (n=chad@S010600195b93a7cd.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 19:15.32 | mjr | cjb, there was a thought of that with Seagate's BT/Wifi HDs, if they could be hacked to do that |
| 19:15.51 | mjr | that train of thought is pretty dormant though |
| 19:16.19 | dennisharrison | mjr, seagate has a wifi and bt on one hdd enclosure thats that small? |
| 19:16.23 | dennisharrison | sounds really cool |
| 19:16.30 | cjb | seems like an obvious win to me; everyone's phone has bluetooth, almost no-one's phone has wifi. |
| 19:16.45 | happycube | even free phones have bt now |
| 19:16.47 | mjr | http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/30/seagate-unveils-d-a-v-e-drive-with-bluetooth-and-wifi/ |
| 19:16.49 | happycube | well, some |
| 19:16.53 | dennisharrison | cjb, I bet you see wifi on more and more phones |
| 19:17.01 | cjb | yes. |
| 19:17.23 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_2aptop (n=ewanm89@host81-151-185-63.range81-151.btcentralplus.com) |
| 19:17.40 | cjb | mjr: why would you think they could be hacked? |
| 19:17.44 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@77.47.0.11.static.cablesurf.de) |
| 19:17.48 | cjb | it doesn't look like it runs Linux or anything. |
| 19:18.06 | dennisharrison | cjb, but depending on the chipset of the attached devices it could |
| 19:18.38 | Aria | Woot! Got bitbake working up a storm finally. |
| 19:18.49 | Aria | Stupid source for the 'file' package is down. |
| 19:19.44 | cesarb | Aria: want a copy? |
| 19:19.45 | mjr | cjb, they touted open development platform etc, without being spesific, hence the speculation |
| 19:20.00 | cjb | mjr: ah, interesting. |
| 19:20.07 | Aria | Got a copy. My distro has a distfiles server with md5-verified copies of everything. |
| 19:20.17 | dennisharrison | mjr, cjb it could be done anyway |
| 19:20.22 | Aria | I wish OE could use it automatically. |
| 19:20.25 | mjr | apparently seagate's page is at http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/products/consumer_electronics/DAVE/ |
| 19:20.30 | cesarb | Aria: parhaps it can... |
| 19:20.37 | Aria | With enough hacking, sure |
| 19:20.42 | cesarb | Aria: I think it has some "falback mirrors" thingy already |
| 19:20.47 | Aria | Mmm. |
| 19:20.55 | cesarb | Aria: you would just have to add your distro's own |
| 19:21.03 | cesarb | Aria: (lemme guess: gentoo...) |
| 19:21.24 | Aria | PLD |
| 19:21.32 | Aria | ;-) |
| 19:22.20 | Aria | Like Debian anal-retentiveness + RPM strictness - Redhat insanity + gentoo's good ideas + build system that works easily |
| 19:22.29 | cesarb | Aria: "The subject of this article may not satisfy the notability guideline..." |
| 19:22.35 | cesarb | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLD_Linux_Distribution |
| 19:22.48 | Aria | Heh. |
| 19:22.52 | mjr | not much about dave there still |
| 19:22.55 | ewanm89_laptop | Aria: It's based on portage :) |
| 19:22.56 | jadams | so anyone gotten ruby running on the neo1973? I know it can be cross-compiled for arm pretty easily, right...they were doing it on the zaurus |
| 19:23.27 | *** part/#openmoko dantalizing (n=dan@wsip-70-184-147-28.ga.at.cox.net) |
| 19:23.36 | Aria | I've not, jadams, but I will be ;-) |
| 19:23.53 | ewanm89_laptop | jadams: I aven't tried in the emu yet, I was working on multiuser support first. |
| 19:24.04 | ewanm89_laptop | s/av/hav/ |
| 19:24.20 | Kero | someone already has Ruby running |
| 19:24.34 | *** join/#openmoko dantalizing (n=dan@wsip-70-184-147-28.ga.at.cox.net) |
| 19:24.45 | ewanm89_laptop | Is it in openembedded tree? |
| 19:25.29 | ewanm89_laptop | :) it is, so. |
| 19:28.17 | *** join/#openmoko waldmeister (n=waldmeis@i59F774BF.versanet.de) |
| 19:30.40 | jadams | Kero: great news. I only have the emu installed at the office, and I'm not going in this weekend, so... |
| 19:30.44 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@c-76-30-222-129.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 19:30.50 | jadams | guess I'll try out rails or camping on it soon enough |
| 19:31.10 | ewanm89_laptop | Well it's fetching ruby now. |
| 19:31.21 | jadams | I've had this address book written in rails for a long time that I had no use for |
| 19:31.29 | jadams | I can hook it up to the phone in a heartbeat I bet though |
| 19:31.32 | *** join/#openmoko SpeedEvil (n=fjfjjfjh@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) |
| 19:31.42 | ewanm89_laptop | Is it gtk? |
| 19:31.49 | jadams | xhtml/css |
| 19:32.03 | jadams | w/ microformats and the like |
| 19:32.10 | jadams | what browsers run on the neo? |
| 19:32.17 | ewanm89_laptop | Um, so it's server side? |
| 19:32.30 | jadams | I would run the server on the phone |
| 19:32.32 | jadams | and hit it locally |
| 19:32.33 | SpeedEvil | The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. |
| 19:32.39 | jadams | oh yeah, heh |
| 19:32.43 | SpeedEvil | jadams: firefox, ... |
| 19:33.47 | jadams | awesome |
| 19:34.01 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: I don't think the phone has enough memory for firefox ;-) |
| 19:34.02 | SpeedEvil | It's not really decided. |
| 19:34.08 | SpeedEvil | Yes, ff will run. |
| 19:34.23 | jadams | what's not really decided? |
| 19:34.29 | SpeedEvil | browser. |
| 19:34.39 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: yes, it does. |
| 19:35.03 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: I'm running FF ATM. And have 128M on this box. |
| 19:35.18 | SpeedEvil | With about 16 open tabs |
| 19:35.35 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: ah, but you have a swap file/partition, don't you? |
| 19:35.39 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: the neo doesn't... |
| 19:35.43 | SpeedEvil | SD |
| 19:35.59 | SpeedEvil | It's not constantly swapping |
| 19:36.20 | ewanm89_laptop | jadams: Surely it'll need a sever then. so ruby on openmoko is less relevant. |
| 19:36.25 | cesarb | And that's not counting the X server (which is where firefox stores the images) |
| 19:36.31 | SpeedEvil | And here I'm swapping to AES loopback on PII/300 - so the speed is prolly comparable. |
| 19:36.58 | SpeedEvil | cesarb: I'm just saying it works for me. And it'll probably work on the neo. |
| 19:37.01 | jadams | ewanm89_laptop: meh, ruby on openmoko is very relevant |
| 19:37.06 | SpeedEvil | It will probably not be optional. |
| 19:37.18 | jadams | I'll be able to get tons of tiny software I'll want up if ruby's running |
| 19:37.48 | ewanm89_laptop | Well it's compiling ruby now. |
| 19:37.52 | jadams | but more importantly, I think I'd be able to run a local rails server |
| 19:37.56 | *** join/#openmoko MacNorth_ (i=friedrij@c-75-71-195-154.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 19:38.09 | jadams | because my rails apps typically take no cpu and tiny memory |
| 19:38.12 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@62-50-199-121.client.stsn.net) |
| 19:38.13 | Qwell | get rails running on it, and get a free pass to railsconf :p |
| 19:38.25 | jadams | I'll be doing my darnedest from day 1 |
| 19:38.32 | jadams | I'm a rails developer primarily :) |
| 19:38.35 | ewanm89_laptop | Would sudo and user managment be optional? |
| 19:38.37 | jadams | and we've got big plans for these suckers |
| 19:38.42 | Qwell | jadams: no douby |
| 19:38.44 | Qwell | doubt too |
| 19:38.57 | *** part/#openmoko jgm (n=jgm@host-87-74-179-156.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 19:39.07 | Qwell | when I stop being lazy, I've got something I want to (properly) port to it |
| 19:39.30 | Qwell | PBX *on* your phone...oh yeah |
| 19:39.51 | jadams | Qwell: yeah, that's been a dream of mine as well :) |
| 19:40.05 | jadams | I'm going to run such a freaking high wireless bill, geez |
| 19:40.06 | Qwell | jadams: well, being an Asterisk dev...it'll be a bit easier for me :) |
| 19:40.10 | jadams | I'm frightened :-\ |
| 19:40.23 | jadams | I'm used to unlimited internet (was on amp'd...still am, but they're bankrupt, so...) |
| 19:40.50 | jadams | hrm |
| 19:41.36 | jadams | I've just got to get a phone running on my amp'd account that can tether via usb so I can take advantage of the high speed unlimited internet from the neo |
| 19:42.29 | Qwell | Is amp'd decently fast? They've still got a year or so yet, don't they? |
| 19:43.53 | jadams | amp'd is fast enough...when I had my home server up (moved six months ago, haven't bothered to fix a few failed bits o' hardware) I had a streaming site set up I could visit to listen to my music |
| 19:44.22 | jadams | I never got it working properly, but my phone and my buddy's htc both could stream the music |
| 19:45.07 | jadams | which is all I really need...not like I'm sending huge bits of data down the wire via svn, which is what the internet's for afaic :) |
| 19:45.23 | jadams | I have to get a good bluetooth keyboard that works with this phone double fast quick |
| 19:46.18 | cesarb | jadams: wouldn't any bluetooth keyboard which works with linux work with the neo? |
| 19:46.37 | Aria | That's the idea. |
| 19:47.13 | jadams | yeah, I've just been operating under the 'tons of stuff will be broken at first' assumption |
| 19:47.17 | jadams | I figure it'll make me less sad |
| 19:47.38 | Aria | Me too. |
| 19:47.54 | jadams | hey, I was just told ruby's already running on it...gimme ruby and vim and that's really all I wanted ANYWAY |
| 19:48.07 | jadams | add the bluetooth keyboard, and I'm floating |
| 19:49.07 | jadams | holy crap synaesthesia's in the repository...anyone ran it in the emulator? |
| 19:49.26 | ewanm89_laptop | Well I'll test ruby in a sec. |
| 19:50.02 | jadams | awesome... |
| 19:50.34 | ewanm89_laptop | ;oading emu atm |
| 19:50.54 | ewanm89_laptop | s/:/l/ |
| 19:51.00 | ewanm89_laptop | s/;/l/ |
| 19:51.01 | Kero | btw, (ruby) gems does not run in 128 MB of RAM |
| 19:51.34 | ewanm89_laptop | Um, that could be a problem. |
| 19:52.25 | Aria | Reasons_gems_suck << that |
| 19:52.38 | SpeedEvil | Given enough swap... :) |
| 19:52.41 | jadams | ha |
| 19:52.59 | jadams | that's awful |
| 19:53.49 | jadams | kero: you mean simply the gem command? I know I have ruby apps that use gems that run way under of course :) |
| 19:53.58 | jadams | and I can handle swap on gem install |
| 19:54.55 | Kero | jadams: yeah. individual gems run fine, of course |
| 19:55.19 | jadams | Kero: :) so non-issue, sorta |
| 19:55.31 | jadams | worst case, copy-paste into the expected structure :) |
| 19:55.40 | jadams | how little? |
| 19:55.48 | Kero | which has 128 MB of RAM, which incidentally is the same as qemu uses by default |
| 19:56.06 | Kero | "booksize"-little (and low-power) |
| 19:56.35 | ewanm89_laptop | So no apache? |
| 19:56.56 | Kero | mongrel :) |
| 19:57.02 | jadams | does mongrel run on it? |
| 19:57.12 | Kero | no problem |
| 19:57.15 | jadams | awesome |
| 19:57.37 | jadams | I'm seeing that I'll be less disappointed with this phone than sean moss-pulitz and co. feared |
| 19:57.48 | Kero | actually, I'm about to leave this channel and install the image |
| 19:58.02 | Kero | after that I'll show the site, perhaps. |
| 19:58.58 | *** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 19:59.40 | ewanm89_laptop | irb works :) |
| 19:59.50 | jadams | OWN! |
| 20:00.02 | jadams | that's it then, it's officially the best phone I'll have ever had |
| 20:00.13 | jadams | in some sense other than the freedom one :) |
| 20:00.36 | Kero | it's related :) |
| 20:00.46 | jadams | obv :) |
| 20:00.46 | Kero | *because* the phone is free, you can install Ruby :) |
| 20:00.57 | Kero | and yes, I'll do the very same |
| 20:01.10 | Kero | ttyl, after reinstalling |
| 20:01.54 | ewanm89_laptop | I'm creating a most devs want patchset hee, atm :) |
| 20:02.57 | *** join/#openmoko gresh_ (n=christop@Mc1be.m.pppool.de) |
| 20:04.07 | sandos | hmm. Are people in here running an emulator or? Devices couldnt possibly have arrived yet, right? :) |
| 20:05.02 | SpeedEvil | 100ish people have devices. |
| 20:05.06 | SpeedEvil | Of various sorts. |
| 20:05.15 | SpeedEvil | of the hardware versions released in the past |
| 20:05.22 | SpeedEvil | and the testhardware for this version |
| 20:05.24 | ewanm89_laptop | emu. |
| 20:05.44 | SpeedEvil | Of those 100 - maybe a dozen are activeish in this channel. |
| 20:06.52 | *** join/#openmoko gcb77 (n=gcb77@c-24-16-154-132.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 20:07.57 | sandos | ok |
| 20:08.10 | *** join/#openmoko myk_ (n=chatzill@dsl092-008-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 20:08.55 | *** join/#openmoko khester_ (n=khester@c-24-4-236-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 20:10.19 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@dslb-084-063-042-015.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 20:11.21 | *** join/#openmoko uplinked (n=linked@c-71-231-178-192.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 20:11.37 | SpeedEvil | They plan to add money transfers in the near future |
| 20:12.08 | ewanm89_laptop | Um, but I want hardware now? |
| 20:12.29 | uplinked | Can anyone help me setup the qemu environment? It keeps telling me I need SDL or Cocoa, but libsdl is installed (ubuntu fiesty) |
| 20:12.38 | Qwell | uplinked: libsdl-dev? |
| 20:12.57 | uplinked | Qwell, that may be it, thanks! |
| 20:14.42 | Qwell | So, how do I convince my wife that we can't afford a Sidekick, and also convince her that I need a Neo? :p |
| 20:14.55 | cesarb | ewanm89_laptop: do like I did: ask a friend to use their credit card, and do a money transfer to him when it's all confirmed |
| 20:14.58 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 20:15.32 | *** join/#openmoko k-s[AWAY] (n=gustavo@201.50.239.155) |
| 20:15.45 | cesarb | ewanm89_laptop: you lose the ability to pay later, and your friend temporarily has more money, which could be to his advantage |
| 20:15.48 | *** join/#openmoko bkruse_home (n=kruz@69.73.127.92) |
| 20:15.56 | bkruse_home | is it me, or is the source tree like the coolest layout ever. |
| 20:16.05 | Qwell | bkruse_home: just you |
| 20:16.18 | Jason1 | ewanm89_laptop: Make you a paper Neo doll: |
| 20:16.18 | Jason1 | http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/2/27/Neo1973-doll.pdf |
| 20:16.18 | Jason1 | :) It can keep you company while you wait. Simply print it out, cut it out, and tape it together :) |
| 20:16.20 | bkruse_home | Qwell: ahh, figured. after looking at ours for so long :P |
| 20:16.24 | Qwell | :p |
| 20:16.33 | daMaestro | counter? |
| 20:16.33 | aloril | (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 2 days 15:43:26 (2.655±1.0 days) (1740;246) |
| 20:16.35 | daMaestro | darn. |
| 20:16.56 | daMaestro | it didn't magically be the 16th |
| 20:18.56 | SpeedEvil | I think 16th was simply someones guess. |
| 20:18.56 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:GPS_Navigation]] [[Wish_List]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Toronto]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[Application_UI_Design_Recommendations]] [[UI_Improvements]] |
| 20:19.03 | SpeedEvil | Was it actually official anywhere? |
| 20:19.36 | Jason1 | SpeedEvil: Harold updated the wiki today with it... |
| 20:19.40 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_laptop (n=ewanm89@host81-151-185-63.range81-151.btcentralplus.com) |
| 20:19.56 | gcb77 | uplinked: did you get qemu working? |
| 20:20.16 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: they estimated it while the neos were in customs. should be pretty accurate as to the time for getting to the USA center, if nothing goes wrong. |
| 20:20.24 | uplinked | gcb77, it's building properly now, yep |
| 20:20.41 | cesarb | SpeedEvil: (after all, usually you can calculate trip times with some certainty) |
| 20:20.52 | jadams | ewanm89_laptop: can you see synaesthesia in the package manager? I see it in the openmoko oe repository, was curious how difficult installing ipkg files was |
| 20:21.04 | Jason1 | cm :( that sucks |
| 20:21.43 | CM | Jason1: Yes, definitely. I installed a new gforce, tv card and a new 500gb hd, and when I rebooted I couldn't log on. |
| 20:22.08 | CM | Jason1: Realized it was easier to just install a new root on the new disk and mount the others to it later |
| 20:22.27 | Jason1 | CM: ouch! |
| 20:22.50 | Jason1 | CM: tvcard, eh? You into MythTV? |
| 20:23.02 | CM | Jason1: Starting from today I am :D |
| 20:23.04 | uplinked | scratch that- i'm getting errors about ppmtorbg3 and pngtopnm not existing; they don't show up in the ubuntu repository, should i manually search-and-install, or is there an automated way? |
| 20:23.22 | Jason1 | CM: awesome. Love it. Been using myth since v .15 era |
| 20:23.22 | *** join/#openmoko wooKieface (n=benjamin@x1-6-00-03-2f-29-99-b9.k967.webspeed.dk) |
| 20:23.28 | ewanm89_laptop | jadams: Just create a patch that adds it to tasks/task-openmoko and increase th PR value by one (using quilt), then run "make update all". |
| 20:23.48 | CM | Jason1: Ah, sweet. That's why I bought the tv card and the 500gb disk.. Only had 1gb left on my raid1 drives |
| 20:24.14 | ewanm89_laptop | Then you probably want to reflash your qemu image, and installed. |
| 20:24.21 | Jason1 | CM: I wanna start playing with HD, but that would require a bunch of new hardware for me. |
| 20:24.48 | gcb77 | uplinked: sudo apt-get install libpng netpbm |
| 20:24.56 | CM | Jason1: I have a 42" samsung plasma and that's why I bought the new gforce7600.. ;) |
| 20:24.57 | Jason1 | CM: I am a little worried about hte whole Zap2It mess |
| 20:25.06 | uplinked | gcb77, awesome, thanks |
| 20:25.26 | Jason1 | CM: sweet |
| 20:28.55 | Jason1 | cm :standby. registering |
| 20:31.18 | uplinked | sweet, qemu is running |
| 20:32.59 | *** part/#openmoko Jason1 (n=ws1@c-24-15-3-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 20:33.10 | *** join/#openmoko some1__ (n=some1@p54A0F061.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:33.40 | *** join/#openmoko Jason1 (n=ws1@c-24-15-3-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 20:33.42 | bkruse_home | uplinked: totally |
| 20:33.45 | bkruse_home | qemu rocks |
| 20:34.00 | gcb77 | anyone get ssh to qemu working? |
| 20:34.06 | *** part/#openmoko Jason1 (n=ws1@c-24-15-3-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 20:34.13 | *** join/#openmoko jpozlovsky (n=jindra@rb5cc115.net.upc.cz) |
| 20:34.19 | *** join/#openmoko jgm (n=jgm@host-87-74-179-156.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 20:35.11 | *** join/#openmoko dirak2 (n=dirakx@190.66.71.124) |
| 20:36.18 | *** join/#openmoko newvn (i=newvn1@i.will.go4sex.nl) |
| 20:37.22 | ewanm89_laptop | Not in qemu, it's a usbgadget fs problem. |
| 20:39.28 | uplinked | ok, silly question i'm sure, but how do i enter numbers and letters in qemu? like, i'm in the text message page, but i can't find a keyboard or anything |
| 20:39.42 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@62-50-199-121.client.stsn.net) |
| 20:40.25 | ewanm89_laptop | uplinked: Do you have a little grey rectangle to the right of the ("start") menu. |
| 20:40.31 | ewanm89_laptop | s/./?/ |
| 20:41.13 | uplinked | err, hold up, just lost the menu, but i don't believe i did |
| 20:41.49 | ewanm89_laptop | Hit full screen in term or something? |
| 20:42.05 | uplinked | heh, nope, just closed everything in the task manager :P back now |
| 20:42.17 | ewanm89_laptop | lol |
| 20:42.30 | uplinked | ahh, rectangle did it |
| 20:42.36 | ewanm89_laptop | Do you have the grey box? |
| 20:42.44 | uplinked | that.. uhh... might need to be labeled |
| 20:42.51 | ewanm89_laptop | right hand side changes keyboard typ. |
| 20:43.04 | ewanm89_laptop | s/typ/type/ |
| 20:43.16 | uplinked | nice, thanks |
| 20:43.29 | ewanm89_laptop | uplinked: The themers still have loads to do. |
| 20:43.57 | uplinked | gotcha |
| 20:43.57 | ewanm89_laptop | It is a missing image, I think :/ |
| 20:44.37 | ewanm89_laptop | And there is a bug so it doesn't always come up at all. |
| 20:44.50 | *** join/#openmoko ChooseOpen (n=ws1@c-24-15-3-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 20:48.21 | ewanm89_laptop | uplinked: Like it? |
| 20:48.53 | uplinked | it's neat. text input's not quite intuitive, imo, but i'd need to play around with the actual hardware to say for sure |
| 20:49.37 | bkruse_home | uplinked: exactly |
| 20:49.44 | ewanm89_laptop | uplinked: Text input is only a tempory app. |
| 20:50.15 | uplinked | heh |
| 20:50.25 | uplinked | i might wind up contributing, once my current contract is up |
| 20:50.35 | uplinked | kind of working with a conflict of interests right now :-p |
| 20:52.03 | uplinked | paypal.com |
| 20:52.11 | uplinked | you can get virtual credit cards :) |
| 20:52.11 | ewanm89_laptop | Do they accept paypal? |
| 20:52.34 | uplinked | not necessary, paypal will generate you a cc number & full details |
| 20:52.40 | ewanm89_laptop | Nice. |
| 20:52.43 | uplinked | and any charges made just come out of your paypal account |
| 20:52.59 | *** join/#openmoko xkr47 (i=xkr47@a88-114-159-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 20:53.37 | bonan | I have that feature at my internet bank :) |
| 20:53.58 | bonan | It's very nice |
| 20:54.46 | uplinked | mmm, task manager is kind of tragic, IMO. apps shouldn't be able to launch multiple instances |
| 20:55.09 | SpeedEvil | Use the source uplinked! |
| 20:55.16 | SpeedEvil | In some cases it might make sense. |
| 20:55.23 | SpeedEvil | Opening multiple documents. |
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| 20:55.44 | SpeedEvil | Ends up as switching documents in the app or in the task manager |
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| 20:56.08 | bkruse_home | uplinked: i guess thats true, just make them multi-threaded, but SpeedEvil has a point |
| 20:56.08 | SpeedEvil | and switching in the app tends to imply wasted screen area in the app. |
| 20:56.21 | uplinked | personal pref. would be to switch within the app, but i see what you mean |
| 20:56.33 | SpeedEvil | With a 2.8" screen - things change. |
| 20:56.48 | SpeedEvil | And some devices will be QVGA, or perhaps even smaller. |
| 20:56.51 | uplinked | *nods* |
| 20:57.39 | SpeedEvil | There should probably be a user option for each, that can be set. |
| 20:58.06 | SpeedEvil | 'Opening a new notepad closes previous document'... |
| 20:58.44 | uplinked | that'd work. i'd say some apps don't even need the option- for instance, it's hard to imagine a time when you'll need two dialers |
| 20:59.00 | SpeedEvil | Multiple numbering it might make sense. |
| 20:59.24 | SpeedEvil | But that isn't real common. |
| 20:59.31 | Aria | Or one shoujld give up switching apps and switch tasks. |
| 20:59.38 | Aria | "Dialer" "doc A" "Doc B" |
| 20:59.45 | SpeedEvil | Yeah |
| 20:59.58 | SpeedEvil | Icon "Doc A" |
| 21:00.03 | SpeedEvil | prolly makes more sense than |
| 21:00.16 | SpeedEvil | Notepad |
| 21:00.35 | SpeedEvil | I don't know how the current task manager shows tasks. |
| 21:01.41 | uplinked | Eh... well, keeping in mind that this is my first day here, I'd say that rather than leaving things like "multi numbering" available, the dialer should be single threaded, and if someone needs two dialers, they're likely an "advanced user" and should download a patch |
| 21:02.11 | uplinked | s/threaded/instanced/ |
| 21:02.12 | SpeedEvil | I'd disagree - about patches. |
| 21:02.12 | SpeedEvil | There should be no real need to have other than a config switch. |
| 21:03.14 | uplinked | I can see how that's a legitimate concern, but again, 2.8" VGA screen- how many options do you REALLY want to expose on the phone? |
| 21:03.16 | SpeedEvil | You don't expose it in the app. |
| 21:03.27 | SpeedEvil | You expose it in the apps config options. |
| 21:03.38 | CM | I agree |
| 21:03.48 | SpeedEvil | Or possibly the task managers config options. |
| 21:04.02 | CM | Some apps should always start a new session when you start, some never |
| 21:04.02 | CM | You can control that via dbus |
| 21:04.02 | uplinked | That doesn't mean that Config can't get out of hand. How many config entries is "managable"? 200? 500? 1000? |
| 21:04.03 | CM | like the gnomies do |
| 21:04.14 | SpeedEvil | uplinked: thousands in principle. |
| 21:04.38 | SpeedEvil | uplinked: just need to be logically searchable or changable. |
| 21:04.55 | SpeedEvil | Consider FF about:config forex |
| 21:04.56 | uplinked | in practice, you forget/cant find that option you wanted |
| 21:05.09 | *** join/#openmoko saaib (n=4b210bac@alpa.com.ar) |
| 21:05.39 | uplinked | OK, but is Young Sebastian going to have to use about:config to change basic options? |
| 21:06.04 | Aria | I rather hope there's not that many options. Firefox has so many settings that should just be LEFT ALONE, hard coded and removed as options. |
| 21:07.36 | jadams | Aria: there's that gnome philosophy linus dislikes so, coming out |
| 21:08.38 | sandos | hmm? |
| 21:08.45 | Aria | Indeed it is. |
| 21:08.45 | uplinked | Best solution, IMO: Advanced options are still there, they're just harder to find. Devs/Powerusers will find them, change them, etc, but at the same time, I can't help but feel like the phone should be mom-and-pop friendly |
| 21:08.45 | Aria | Hence my using most things gnomey |
| 21:09.12 | uplinked | I'm kind of surprised the task manager is so forwardly exposed, at that. |
| 21:09.12 | ewanm89_laptop | uplinked: Paypal no good as it requires direct debit which isn't available on my account. |
| 21:09.25 | SpeedEvil | Aria: determining which ones of these should never ever be changed at writing time is hard though. |
| 21:09.38 | uplinked | (Again, all said with the context that I have no place to critique what I have less than 2 hours experience with) |
| 21:09.38 | CM | uplinked: I agree. My mom can change startpage in the settings for FF, but she'll never find about:config |
| 21:09.50 | SpeedEvil | Aria: especially as if you _do_ need to change them, it's _much_much_much_ harder if there isn't an option. |
| 21:10.01 | LarstiQ | SpeedEvil: if they complicate your codebase without not pessiming, perhaps you shouldn't. |
| 21:10.14 | SpeedEvil | There is that. |
| 21:10.42 | SpeedEvil | If they make the code nasty, and you can't think why they should be changed, sure, delete them. If they are 'free' - or nearly so, leave them. |
| 21:10.57 | uplinked | SpeedEvil, who's the customer here? Right now, it's devs, but I was of the understanding that "everyone" should want a phase 2 device |
| 21:11.09 | SpeedEvil | uplinked: I'm not disagreeing - normal users would never see this interface. |
| 21:11.54 | uplinked | Even as a dev, I'm scared of buying the phone right now just on the premise that I spend all day on the computer, and when I get a call, I want to answer the phone, not wrestle with config files on linux-in-my-pocket. |
| 21:12.06 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List#User_Profiles |
| 21:12.59 | SpeedEvil | uplinked: |
| 21:13.33 | Aria | SpeedEvil: Indeed. But better still is figuring out what's needed and then doing that. |
| 21:13.38 | SpeedEvil | Oe Or devs would never see the interface unless they intentioanlly launch it. |
| 21:14.40 | SpeedEvil | Being able to change stuff on the fly without recompiling, where it is practical is a good thing. Of course this should not get in the way of normal use. |
| 21:14.49 | uplinked | SpeedEvil, Seems like the preferences are a good way to limit/add feature usage for individual users |
| 21:14.54 | uplinked | err, the profiles, rather |
| 21:14.57 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 21:15.12 | uplinked | I guess my concern is just a little more general than that, though |
| 21:15.16 | SpeedEvil | Maybe even a 'guest' profile - for anyone who picks up the phone. |
| 21:15.38 | SpeedEvil | Though that would have to be optional. |
| 21:15.53 | jadams | more options :) |
| 21:15.57 | SpeedEvil | I could see cases where I'd like to give my phone to someone, to play games with. |
| 21:16.15 | SpeedEvil | But I don't want them doing anything risky. |
| 21:16.20 | jadams | yeah |
| 21:16.29 | jadams | I'd want to be able to change logged in users :) |
| 21:16.29 | CM | SpeedEvil: What about a "You're a moron"-profile if you type in the wrong pin trying to unlock it :D |
| 21:16.36 | uplinked | heh, i operate on the premise, "if i trust you not to run off with my $300 phone, i trust you not to change my background to a penis" |
| 21:16.42 | sandos | ;) |
| 21:16.50 | jadams | uplinked: we would not make good friends it seems |
| 21:16.59 | galexande | hahaha i don't have any friends i trust that much |
| 21:17.11 | galexande | but i'd let them use my phone without hesitation :) |
| 21:17.11 | CM | uplinked: You should be glad it's doesn't have a camera if you have friends like that ;) |
| 21:17.49 | uplinked | I guess my worry for the openMoko platform is that it seems to be a phone by-linux-users,for-linux-users |
| 21:17.52 | SpeedEvil | uplinked: consider giving it to a 12 year old who's bored in the back of your car. |
| 21:18.09 | SpeedEvil | But not actually destructive. |
| 21:18.52 | SpeedEvil | Many 12 year olds have poorly developed morals, and wouldn't hesitate to look through your messages. |
| 21:19.00 | SpeedEvil | Though I wish I could say that almost all adults wouldn't. |
| 21:19.16 | uplinked | I work with hundreds of user experience experts a day, and I'm constantly bitched-at about "Joe User" and "Young Sebastian", and it feels like the openmoko approach, from the ground up, seems to target "IT Guy Jim" |
| 21:21.24 | SpeedEvil | IMO. |
| 21:21.30 | SpeedEvil | The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. |
| 21:21.43 | SpeedEvil | Polish can happen later. |
| 21:21.53 | uplinked | it's not polish that concerns me |
| 21:21.53 | SpeedEvil | Entire reimplimentation of the whole user interface can happen later. |
| 21:21.54 | mjr | :) |
| 21:21.55 | uplinked | and maybe what concerns me isn't really worth discussing in this channel |
| 21:22.22 | SpeedEvil | I would expect and hope for things to get better soon. |
| 21:22.32 | SpeedEvil | If they don't, I predict at least some forked stuff. |
| 21:22.50 | mmazur | Yeah, polish not that important right know, and I should know, I'm from poland ;) |
| 21:22.50 | uplinked | exactly, that was my next point |
| 21:22.55 | SpeedEvil | Don't like it, buy the hardware and fork off. |
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| 21:23.23 | SpeedEvil | You mean using it as a modem? |
| 21:23.28 | uplinked | well, if profit is a goal, i think it'll be more of "copy the hardware, reproduce it, market your own implementation" |
| 21:23.28 | mjr | that shouldn't really be hard |
| 21:23.50 | SpeedEvil | uplinked: OM != FIC != Neo1973 |
| 21:24.01 | SpeedEvil | They _hope_ that lots of people will make phones. |
| 21:24.01 | uplinked | true |
| 21:24.13 | sandos | SpeedEvil: I agre with you, redesigning the UI shouldnt be a huge undertaking, especially considering that making things easier mostly should come to removing stuff |
| 21:24.21 | SpeedEvil | Because if that happens, and they all run openmoko, that basically means that FIC are now on a par with Nokia. |
| 21:24.26 | mjr | one can probably script the Neo to provide gprs to a laptop in 10 minutes or something, going the quick'n'dirty way |
| 21:24.44 | uplinked | all i'm saying is that anyone that wants to target my granny should probably sell phones with their branched, dumbed down OS preloaded :) |
| 21:24.44 | SpeedEvil | Instead of the lowest bidding contractor of 5 making a nokia phone. |
| 21:25.14 | SpeedEvil | Personally. I suspect your granny might well prefer a nokia 1100 with large buttons |
| 21:26.00 | uplinked | well, all things considered, my granny's dead, too, i just meant in general :P |
| 21:26.34 | SpeedEvil | With the accelerometers, we should be able to implement sensitive table-shaking detection. |
| 21:27.02 | uplinked | i'm real interested in seeing what happens when someone combines the GPS with the accelerometers |
| 21:27.10 | uplinked | i don't even know what kinds of things you could do with that |
| 21:27.31 | uplinked | but i'm sure someone will get creative |
| 21:27.31 | SpeedEvil | Basically little. |
| 21:28.13 | SpeedEvil | And I even wrote http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals on the topic |
| 21:28.13 | mjr | orientation sensing and lightsabers, I don't want much... |
| 21:28.23 | uplinked | "You're at Chicago O'Hare, moving at 500 miles per hour. Phone powering down." |
| 21:28.23 | SpeedEvil | Bascally, you can detect which way down is. |
| 21:28.24 | SpeedEvil | Little more. |
| 21:28.31 | uplinked | ahh |
| 21:28.44 | uplinked | think i read that a while back |
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| 21:37.53 | sixfeet | ja? |
| 21:38.21 | Husare | ??? haha :D |
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| 21:38.43 | sixfeet | gg hi Husare |
| 21:38.54 | Husare | hi sixfeet |
| 21:39.20 | sixfeet | hatte mich wer gehigh-lighted .. daher |
| 21:39.51 | Husare | hehe...ich dachte das wäre ein englischsprachiger channel? |
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| 21:43.34 | Elrond | Husar(e) - Eigentlich ist esein englischsprachiger Channel, ja. ;-) |
| 21:43.35 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@62-50-199-121.client.stsn.net) |
| 21:43.38 | Elrond | Hi koe |
| 21:43.40 | Elrond | Hi koen |
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| 21:45.29 | Husare | Elrond, tut me sorry ;) |
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| 21:48.06 | Elrond | huh, neo just crashed... strange. |
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| 21:51.14 | jgm | Does anyone know how openmoko is going to handle sending/receiving of text messages? I would assume that the GSM daemon would be doing the actual work, but how will gsmd talk to the other apps? Dbus? |
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| 22:18.56 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_North_Texas]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Talk:GPS_Navigation]] [[User_talk:Kevinh]] |
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| 22:40.12 | dilinger | neat. somehow i made jffs2 explode for files in /sbin |
| 22:40.21 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x_ (n=alvar@212-41-96-75.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 22:40.35 | dilinger | ls: /sbin/fsck: Input/output error |
| 22:41.00 | ChooseOpen | Does anyone know how the speed of the Neo (as it is today) compares to the performance of the Qemu image? |
| 22:41.14 | SpeedEvil | Gonna depend on your processor AIUI. |
| 22:44.27 | Stephmw | ChooseOpen: qemu's emulated instructions all have different speeds - it's almost impossible to compare |
| 22:44.56 | ChooseOpen | step |
| 22:45.04 | ChooseOpen | Stephmw: makes sense |
| 22:45.08 | CM | At least hrw said "good, it prepares you for the real thing" when someone complained of the slowness of qemu |
| 22:45.12 | rastlinux | is there a compiled list of apps developed or in development for openmoko yet? |
| 22:45.22 | Stephmw | CM: hahaha |
| 22:45.28 | ChooseOpen | CM: LOL |
| 22:45.44 | Stephmw | rastlinux: take a list of apps from a standard distro... now mark them all as 'potential' |
| 22:46.10 | Stephmw | rastlinux: then start with the As and see if they're in the openembedded recipe list |
| 22:46.35 | Elrond | CM - *giggle* |
| 22:46.43 | Stephmw | rastlinux: if they are... they'll probably compile for the Neo |
| 22:46.56 | Stephmw | rastlinux: now test each one that builds and see if it runs at all |
| 22:47.05 | Stephmw | rastlinux: .... you see where this is leading? :D |
| 22:47.21 | CM | I'd like to do all the performance tuning I can on the real Neo |
| 22:47.31 | rastlinux | yup, thanks |
| 22:47.35 | CM | Not now, of course, but when more things work |
| 22:48.32 | Elrond | Of course, programs that need escape-meta-alt-control aren't _that_ iseable on the neo, except via ssh or with a BT keyboard. ;o) |
| 22:49.04 | Stephmw | Elrond: that's just being pessimistic |
| 22:49.39 | Stephmw | Elrond: I'm sure that with sufficient escape-shift, meta-shift, alt-shift, control-shift toggle modifiers, it'd be workable |
| 22:49.49 | Stephmw | Elrond: but only RMS could love the resulting pain |
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| 22:50.46 | rastlinux | I'm thinking of thinks like openvpn and vpnc for business sort of work |
| 22:51.23 | rastlinux | it sounds like that will probably work fine, they've been ported to other platforms I think with out issue. |
| 22:51.34 | jadams | bt keyboard ftw anyway |
| 22:51.40 | jadams | I'll be getting my bt keyboard on first thing |
| 22:52.43 | *** join/#openmoko cosminb (n=cosmin@86.106.163.121) |
| 22:53.00 | rastlinux | I like that BT, virtual keyboard. |
| 22:53.17 | rastlinux | way cool, just needs a flat surface |
| 22:53.30 | cosminb | can anyone run "wget http://www.rwhitby.net/files/openmoko/Makefile" ? |
| 22:53.31 | aloril | cosminb: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 22:54.13 | cosminb | I am trying to follow the instructions on getting the mokomakefile up and running |
| 22:54.19 | cosminb | but the site is down |
| 22:55.09 | Elrond | Oh well. today is crash-neo day. |
| 22:55.18 | Stephmw | gonna drop it on the floor? |
| 22:55.49 | Elrond | Well, only the kernel. |
| 22:57.20 | Aria | cosminb: I can't, no |
| 22:57.29 | cosminb | anyone knows a mirror for the moko makefile? |
| 22:57.34 | CoreDump | did the icons on the "today" screen return btw? |
| 22:57.35 | sagacis | Glad I did it last night |
| 22:57.50 | sagacis | They were gone with a pull from overnight |
| 22:58.10 | CoreDump | they are gone for >1 week now |
| 22:58.13 | Elrond | CoreDump - I have no idea, I have only builds from buildhost and today is not my default boot. ;) |
| 22:59.41 | cosminb | anyone has a working mokomakefile? |
| 22:59.53 | cosminb | or should I just give up starting this way? |
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| 23:00.04 | rwhitby | cosminb: rwhitby.net is down |
| 23:00.14 | cosminb | hi there :) |
| 23:00.16 | rwhitby | it's being fixed now |
| 23:00.21 | cosminb | cool :) |
| 23:00.35 | cosminb | let us know when it's up |
| 23:00.37 | cosminb | pls... |
| 23:00.52 | rwhitby | http://svn.nslu2-linux.org/svnroot/mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile |
| 23:00.53 | CoreDump | I have a checkout from July, 8th if that helps... |
| 23:01.10 | cosminb | thanks, I'll use that |
| 23:01.12 | rwhitby | the svn repo is fine - just get it from that url |
| 23:01.22 | cosminb | ok |
| 23:01.22 | rwhitby | (that's what the rwhitby.net url redirects to anyway) |
| 23:01.31 | cosminb | I see... |
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| 23:25.11 | *** join/#openmoko codyl (n=codyl@adsl-71-142-70-134.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 23:28.16 | Kero | pft |
| 23:32.34 | DukeOfUrl | cd /tmp |
| 23:32.36 | DukeOfUrl | ll |
| 23:33.00 | DukeOfUrl | sorry |
| 23:33.46 | DukeOfUrl | I SAID SORRY |
| 23:34.26 | summatusmentis | DukeOfUrl: just giving you crap :-) |
| 23:34.41 | DukeOfUrl | story of my day |
| 23:36.24 | *** join/#openmoko nop_ (n=nop@p54A0B4B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 23:42.28 | *** join/#openmoko sudharsh_ (n=sudharsh@59.92.54.34) |
| 23:48.16 | aloril | (script) planet: Daniel Willmann: See you at GUADEC http://www.totalueberwachung.de/blog/articles/2007/07/15/see-you-at-guadec |
