| 00:01.31 | cesarb | ferric: http://www.brazilfw.com.br/images/rtl8139d/falseta.jpg is a picture of one of these |
| 00:02.26 | cesarb | (source: http://www.brazilfw.com.br/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55442&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30) |
| 00:02.32 | ExxonValdee1 | what is that? a wifi board? debug board? |
| 00:02.32 | aloril | Currently sold Neo1973 GTA01B_v04 (P1) doesn't have WiFi, GTA02 (P2) which is scheduled for October will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F |
| 00:03.03 | *** join/#openmoko ben_goodger (n=ben@host81-153-25-122.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 00:04.21 | *** part/#openmoko ExxonValdee1 (n=exxon@cpe-76-186-34-249.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 00:05.00 | *** join/#openmoko nop (n=nop@p54A0A830.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 00:05.11 | *** join/#openmoko ExxonValdeez (n=exxon@cpe-76-186-34-249.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 00:06.27 | dirakx | alorill the atheros AR6 chip has open drivers..? |
| 00:07.02 | cesarb | ExxonValdeez: counterfeit realtek NIC |
| 00:07.17 | cesarb | ExxonValdeez: in fact a SC92031 chip |
| 00:08.26 | ExxonValdeez | counterfeit? |
| 00:08.41 | ExxonValdeez | i would doubt the atheros has open drivers |
| 00:08.52 | ExxonValdeez | their desktop chips run with madwifi drivers |
| 00:08.57 | cesarb | ExxonValdeez: it says it's a Realtek NIC, but it isn't |
| 00:09.04 | ExxonValdeez | ah, i see |
| 00:09.05 | dirakx | ExxonValdeez: ok just checking..:) |
| 00:10.21 | ExxonValdeez | agh, i screwed up x messing around with vmware, brb |
| 00:10.48 | *** join/#openmoko mosno (n=bmc@203-173-40-74.perm.iinet.net.au) |
| 00:11.39 | *** part/#openmoko mcclade (n=macca@87-194-38-108.bethere.co.uk) |
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| 00:16.33 | SpeedEvil | My last fake hardware was a fake SCSI card. |
| 00:16.56 | SpeedEvil | 16 bit ISA - ... |
| 00:17.42 | webjames | night all |
| 00:18.00 | *** join/#openmoko merriam_ (n=merriam@84-12-20-189.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 00:18.10 | *** join/#openmoko ExxonValdeez (n=exxon@cpe-76-186-34-249.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 00:19.41 | *** join/#openmoko jsgotangco (n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco) |
| 00:20.14 | arachnid | What's Harald Welte's relationship with the OpenMoko project? |
| 00:20.20 | arachnid | I presume he works for FIC in some fashion |
| 00:21.45 | SpeedEvil | Search for Core Team in wiki |
| 00:21.45 | Aria | Indeed. |
| 00:23.11 | arachnid | Ah. That rather cryptic blog post doesn't bode well, then |
| 00:24.54 | paulproteus | I have a phone, and it's plugged into my USB port, but it's running an old version of its software. What's the right way to upgrade it? |
| 00:25.40 | galexande | paul, dare i say: |
| 00:25.42 | galexande | very carefully |
| 00:26.02 | paulproteus | galexande, Well, I flashed the debug board two days ago because I thought that was necessary. |
| 00:26.11 | paulproteus | But all the phone needed was some time to charge! |
| 00:28.07 | don-o | it would be nice if someone else did a blog post to bump the laf0orge entry off the top spot. |
| 00:28.25 | *** join/#openmoko ben_goodger (n=ben@host81-153-25-122.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 00:29.43 | don-o | something about how many phones are left and how many more are being manufactured and current shipping status of existing phones, for instance. |
| 00:31.30 | paulproteus | Looks like I have to use MokoMakefile or equivalent to build a flash image. |
| 00:31.47 | *** join/#openmoko SpeedFire (n=SpeedFir@ARennes-258-1-93-3.w90-25.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 00:34.47 | rwhitby | paulproteus: you can also just download one |
| 00:35.50 | rwhitby | http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/latest/ |
| 00:35.51 | paulproteus | rwhitby, Do you mean the "really basic" referred-to at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Userspace_root_image ? |
| 00:35.57 | paulproteus | Ooh, thanks rwhitby! |
| 00:36.18 | rwhitby | something to play with while you're waiting for the build to complete ... |
| 00:36.35 | paulproteus | rwhitby, Thanks for the help. I'm getting into the game a little late. |
| 00:36.50 | *** join/#openmoko Gerikes (n=Bob@pool-72-70-245-142.spfdma.east.verizon.net) |
| 00:37.50 | paulproteus | rwhitby, I guess I should put the files on a micro SD and then enter the commands listed (I'll also have to figure out how to get a terminal). |
| 00:37.59 | paulproteus | I'm reading http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/U-boot#Writing_rootfs_to_NAND right now. |
| 00:38.13 | rwhitby | paulproteus: easiest is to use dfu |
| 00:38.33 | paulproteus | I don't know what dfu is. Should I just read all of the U-boot page first and then ask questions? |
| 00:38.34 | rwhitby | paulproteus: better late than never :-) welcome aboard. |
| 00:38.52 | rwhitby | dfu-util is the utility which flashes the neo via the usb port. |
| 00:39.27 | rwhitby | you hold in the aux button while turning on the phone, which drops you into the u-boot menu. |
| 00:39.42 | rwhitby | then use dfu-util to load the kernel and rootfs via usb |
| 00:39.54 | paulproteus | I only see one button, the one next to the USB port. |
| 00:40.06 | paulproteus | Is that aux, or is there somewhere else I should look? |
| 00:40.25 | rwhitby | top left - looks like an IR port |
| 00:40.38 | paulproteus | Yeah, I thought it was one. Okay! |
| 00:40.56 | paulproteus | Cool, I'll do that right now. |
| 00:41.22 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 00:42.14 | paulproteus | Now the screen is all white. |
| 00:42.21 | *** join/#openmoko kalikiana__ (n=kalikian@xdsl-84-44-177-167.netcologne.de) |
| 00:43.39 | paulproteus | [200737.181483] usb0: unregister 'cdc_ether' usb-0000:00:1d.2-1, CDC Ethernet Device |
| 00:43.44 | paulproteus | Wait, that's a disconnect. |
| 00:43.54 | paulproteus | I guess I should just wait a minute and see what happens. |
| 00:44.22 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 00:44.41 | rwhitby | phone power off, hold in aux, phone power on, release aux when u-boot menu appears. |
| 00:46.04 | orzo | is it possible to overwrite u-boot making the phone unflashable without some sort of hardware intervension? |
| 00:46.40 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 00:47.01 | orzo | scary |
| 00:47.03 | SpeedEvil | The new flashing tools - as I understand it - make it harder. |
| 00:47.18 | SpeedEvil | And you can write direct to the u-boot partition. |
| 00:47.22 | SpeedEvil | (don't do that) |
| 00:48.29 | *** join/#openmoko miip_ (n=miip@p54A57423.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 00:49.38 | cb22 | So, according to the SMedia site, the 3362 has some cool features, are these planned to be implemented somehow in X or similar? |
| 00:49.52 | spikebike | is that the graphics chip? |
| 00:50.00 | spikebike | for gta02 |
| 00:50.09 | cb22 | Yeah |
| 00:50.11 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 00:50.26 | cb22 | Supports mpeg4 decoding, hardware rotating, 3d/2d acceleration |
| 00:50.28 | spikebike | can't imagine they would bother to go through the expense, delay in design, and waste the power if not |
| 00:50.52 | *** join/#openmoko bmidgley_ (n=bmidgley@15.sub-75-216-217.myvzw.com) |
| 00:51.02 | cb22 | Oh well, i suppose it will get implemented sometime |
| 00:51.10 | cb22 | The beauty of open source :) |
| 00:51.42 | paulproteus | rwhitby, I can't get it to not do the real boot and go into X.... |
| 00:51.45 | ben_goodger | "hardware rotating"? |
| 00:52.06 | cb22 | As in hardware accelerated screen rotation |
| 00:52.16 | ben_goodger | oh, I see |
| 00:52.21 | cb22 | http://www.smediatech.com/product3362.htm |
| 00:53.29 | spikebike | yeah |
| 00:53.33 | SpeedEvil | cb22: in theory. |
| 00:53.50 | ben_goodger | depends on the amount of documentation |
| 00:53.50 | SpeedEvil | As they are NDAs involved, FIC only can write the driver. |
| 00:53.53 | spikebike | sucks when you get great accleration in one aspect in normal mode and zero when rotated |
| 00:53.59 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 00:54.28 | SpeedEvil | And FIC has limited coders, so it's very likely that very little of the possible funcitonality may get implemented - at least soon. |
| 00:54.32 | ben_goodger | if your tech specs aren't released freely, you're screwed |
| 00:54.47 | ben_goodger | NV has been going for ages and still barely works on 2d |
| 00:55.00 | rwhitby | paulproteus: do you have a *really* old u-boot build on that device? |
| 00:55.18 | paulproteus | rwhitby, This is 2007-04-20 unmodified, that's about all I know... |
| 00:55.22 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 00:56.16 | rwhitby | paulproteus: you might need to devirginate with a more recent u-boot to get the menu |
| 00:56.47 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 00:57.43 | paulproteus | rwhitby, Recommendation on how to do that? I do have a debug board appropriately flashed if necessary. |
| 00:57.57 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 00:58.03 | *** join/#openmoko BlackBsd (n=brian@72.168.193.117) |
| 00:58.11 | rwhitby | paulproteus: there is a wiki page on that. |
| 00:58.25 | rwhitby | but you might be better off just going down the sd card route anyway |
| 00:58.37 | rwhitby | (although I've never tried that myself) |
| 00:59.47 | paulproteus | FWIW the Terminal isn't loading. |
| 01:02.25 | *** part/#openmoko Gerikes (n=Bob@pool-72-70-245-142.spfdma.east.verizon.net) |
| 01:03.32 | paulproteus | rwhitby, If I can't get a terminal or u-boot's interface through the AUX port, any suggestions...? |
| 01:04.02 | paulproteus | I'm going to read the Phase0 Quick Start carefully and follow it (from wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bootloader) |
| 01:04.05 | rwhitby | AUX port? |
| 01:04.16 | paulproteus | Sorry, AUX button. |
| 01:04.28 | paulproteus | Never mind my question; I'm going to re-try the AUX button instructions to the letter. |
| 01:05.36 | quinton | can the GSM module communicate with anything other than the phone network (over the air) and the OS (through the UART)? |
| 01:06.28 | SpeedEvil | No |
| 01:06.37 | SpeedEvil | You mean phone-phone? |
| 01:06.53 | quinton | no, i'm looking at the diagram on this page: |
| 01:06.59 | quinton | https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko |
| 01:07.26 | quinton | it shows a connection between the audio codec(?) and the gsm, i'm wondering if i'm reading it correctly |
| 01:07.38 | SpeedEvil | The audio goes out seperately. |
| 01:07.44 | SpeedEvil | as audio in/out analog |
| 01:07.47 | SpeedEvil | to the codec |
| 01:07.53 | *** join/#openmoko gerikes (n=mhildret@pool-72-70-245-142.spfdma.east.verizon.net) |
| 01:08.21 | quinton | i don't think i get it |
| 01:08.53 | quinton | oh, wait, is that WM9784 a part of the GSM module? |
| 01:09.04 | roh | quinton nope |
| 01:09.47 | SpeedEvil | It's the audio codec |
| 01:09.53 | SpeedEvil | think of it as a soundcard |
| 01:09.59 | SpeedEvil | which it basically is. |
| 01:10.12 | SpeedEvil | the GSM 'speaker' and 'mic' |
| 01:10.15 | SpeedEvil | are connected to it |
| 01:10.21 | SpeedEvil | and the real speaker and mic seperately. |
| 01:10.39 | quinton | oh, right. thanks SpeedEvil! |
| 01:10.43 | roh | a soundcard with a specialised mixer for phones and similar multimedia stuff... means it has multiple in and outs and a relatively complex routing is possible |
| 01:10.49 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 01:10.54 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@c-76-30-222-129.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 01:11.39 | orzo | are speaker and mic two seperate physical jacks? |
| 01:11.43 | *** part/#openmoko idarwin (n=ian@207.81.133.5) |
| 01:11.49 | orzo | or are they somehow combined |
| 01:12.27 | SpeedEvil | combined in the headset jack. |
| 01:13.05 | roh | orzo there is a internal mic, internal headphones, a jacket with mic-ext, headphones-stereo-ext and 2 internal speakers (stereo). additionally the codec is connected to bluetooth |
| 01:13.09 | SpeedEvil | The input and output from the GSM module, and the mic and speaker are all seperately wired to the 'soundcard' |
| 01:14.00 | orzo | can i plug speakers or headphones only into the headset jack and everything work correctly? |
| 01:14.07 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 01:14.15 | SpeedEvil | You will need an adaptor if it's 3.5mm |
| 01:14.17 | orzo | how about only a mic? |
| 01:14.21 | SpeedEvil | mono mic |
| 01:14.34 | SpeedEvil | Otherwise you'd need a USB soundcard. |
| 01:15.43 | orzo | does the display have levels of brightness? |
| 01:15.53 | orzo | adjustable |
| 01:17.04 | roh | orzo yeah. its connected to a PWM port and thus can be dimmed in more steps than i can differenciate with my eyes |
| 01:17.21 | paulproteus | rwhitby, Ooh ooh, I got the AUX thing right this time! (-: |
| 01:17.26 | quinton | so, when you are talking, the data isn't going over the UART? |
| 01:17.30 | SpeedEvil | No |
| 01:17.36 | SpeedEvil | Over the 'soundcard'. |
| 01:17.44 | quinton | cool, thanks |
| 01:17.46 | SpeedEvil | Through the mixers usually. |
| 01:17.56 | SpeedEvil | Though it can also be routed through the CPU for special effects. |
| 01:18.28 | SpeedEvil | That's the least of it, yes. |
| 01:18.38 | SpeedEvil | Pitch bending for people that call you with annoyingly high voices. |
| 01:18.46 | quinton | heh |
| 01:18.53 | cb22 | Heh, and text to speech |
| 01:18.56 | SpeedEvil | Or if you have problem hearing low voices, audio compression |
| 01:19.38 | cb22 | So, has anyone gotten their P1 phones yet? |
| 01:19.42 | orzo | voice distortion for when you are asking for randsom |
| 01:19.42 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 01:19.57 | orzo | the P0 people have P1 phones, dont they? |
| 01:20.03 | SpeedEvil | Not anyone but the first fevs |
| 01:20.04 | SpeedEvil | devs |
| 01:20.38 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 01:20.55 | cb22 | So does it look as if P2 will be released on time? |
| 01:20.58 | *** join/#openmoko gcb77_2 (n=gbarta@c-24-16-154-132.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 01:21.02 | cb22 | Because i _really_ want one! |
| 01:21.25 | don-o | cb22: ha. thats purely speculative at this point. |
| 01:21.33 | orzo | laf0rge said something about the P2 phones being user-ready hardware wise but not software wise |
| 01:21.45 | orzo | in his blog |
| 01:21.58 | ajmitch | well that's why there'll be lots of people hacking on P1 phones |
| 01:22.15 | cb22 | Yeah, the more people who have the phone, the cooler it will get |
| 01:22.15 | orzo | well aren't P1 phones ready in the same sense? |
| 01:22.42 | orzo | are there hardware problems? |
| 01:23.09 | *** join/#openmoko littertiger (n=tiger_zs@222.66.81.98) |
| 01:23.17 | littertiger | morning |
| 01:24.44 | ajmitch | different hardware, of course |
| 01:27.00 | littertiger | Does phase 2 will use the same kernel with phase1? |
| 01:27.32 | orzo | no, phase 2 will run windows mobile |
| 01:28.01 | SpeedEvil | I thought it was OS/X |
| 01:28.10 | don-o | orzo: finally. an OS i can get behind. :) |
| 01:28.13 | SpeedEvil | To be serious - yes. |
| 01:28.27 | littertiger | ... |
| 01:28.29 | SpeedEvil | The hardware is identical. |
| 01:28.36 | SpeedEvil | almost |
| 01:28.37 | littertiger | kiding? |
| 01:28.40 | cb22 | Identical? |
| 01:28.58 | don-o | depending on your point of view, yes |
| 01:29.00 | littertiger | it's different cpu |
| 01:29.05 | SpeedEvil | It's got extra hardware |
| 01:29.12 | SpeedEvil | but logically it's pretty much the same |
| 01:29.26 | SpeedEvil | think of P4 2000Mhz - P4 2500Mhz |
| 01:29.29 | don-o | littertiger: its a faster model of the same cpu |
| 01:29.32 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@207.181.6.54) |
| 01:30.10 | littertiger | ah, so it will use the same kernel with different configuration. |
| 01:30.12 | orzo | maybe P1 phones will have better battery life than P2 |
| 01:30.36 | littertiger | sure, P1 doesn't have wifi things. |
| 01:30.41 | cb22 | AFAIK P2 has a bigger battery too |
| 01:30.52 | SpeedEvil | But will use more power likely |
| 01:31.07 | cb22 | 1700mAh vs 1200mAh i think it was |
| 01:32.51 | orzo | can the phone aspect of the neo be shut off while leaving the pda aspect |
| 01:32.57 | orzo | for airline travel |
| 01:33.08 | MrFeetio | yes |
| 01:33.18 | paulproteus | I saw a "Airplane mode" in the power menu, orzo, just a minute ago. |
| 01:35.28 | orzo | heh |
| 01:35.48 | don-o | that mode pretty much only works once :) |
| 01:36.01 | orzo | i bet people will build robot bodies for it |
| 01:36.26 | littertiger | will mass market net use speciallize software? |
| 01:37.03 | littertiger | will mass market ne0 use speciallized software? |
| 01:37.43 | quinton | orzo, that's just brilliant |
| 01:38.46 | ajmitch | orzo: don't tempt me :) |
| 01:42.40 | orzo | maybe one of those robotic floor washer things |
| 01:42.52 | orzo | to vaccume or mop |
| 01:43.11 | orzo | heh |
| 01:43.55 | ajmitch | trying to get a patch to actually apply |
| 01:43.59 | orzo | my phone causes digital interference in digital telivision signals |
| 01:44.24 | orzo | does that mean, it can mess around with that signal on purpose? |
| 01:44.37 | orzo | maybe get tv on the phone or broadcast things to your digital tv |
| 01:45.44 | orzo | hm |
| 01:46.09 | orzo | can teh phone tap into the neighbor's celular conversation? |
| 01:47.59 | quinton | with the limited access to the GSM module, it might be difficult to put it in a 'promiscious' mode |
| 01:48.12 | quinton | i heard about it being done with some other type of phone though |
| 01:48.30 | *** join/#openmoko arndot (n=arndt@dslb-084-062-200-098.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 01:48.50 | orzo | teh GSM is more software than hardware though, right? so the hardware wont prevent it |
| 01:50.01 | orzo | does the wifi have promiscious mode? |
| 01:50.05 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 01:50.06 | orzo | i've never had a wifi card that would let me do that |
| 01:50.20 | SpeedEvil | the GSM modem is an AT modem |
| 01:50.26 | orzo | i have a all ralink cards |
| 01:50.34 | orzo | or thats teh drivers anyway |
| 01:50.42 | SpeedEvil | It would be illegal in many countries to sell a 'hackable' GSM modem. |
| 01:50.49 | *** join/#openmoko sagaci2 (n=mark@cpe-76-185-118-188.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 01:51.19 | quinton | do you know if the closed wifi firmware would have to be a file on the system to be loaded at boot time, like with prism? |
| 01:51.37 | SpeedEvil | It's atheros chipset |
| 01:52.02 | SpeedEvil | Dunno - possibly. |
| 01:52.06 | SpeedEvil | Probably even. |
| 01:52.37 | quinton | heh, i can't wait to start playing with one of these |
| 01:53.02 | SpeedEvil | Well - buy one, they are inexpensive. |
| 01:53.06 | arachnid | If it's _firmware_, it's on the chip |
| 01:53.12 | quinton | i've ordered one =D |
| 01:53.15 | arachnid | If it has to be loaded at boot time, it's software or a driver |
| 01:53.26 | SpeedEvil | arachnid: no |
| 01:53.41 | arachnid | SpeedEvil: In what sense is it firmware if it has to be loaded by the OS on boot? |
| 01:53.44 | SpeedEvil | arachnid: in order to reduce costs, many chips these days load the firmware at boot-time over USB |
| 01:54.15 | arachnid | Ooookay, that's wacky. |
| 01:54.15 | SpeedEvil | Because storage on the main system is far cheaper than having a seperate storage chip. |
| 01:54.24 | arachnid | Is the wifi even on the USB bus? |
| 01:54.28 | orzo | i'd like to mount it on a digital camcorder and record accelerometer data along with the video stream |
| 01:54.35 | SpeedEvil | arachnid: not known. |
| 01:54.40 | SpeedEvil | orzo: usb1.1 |
| 01:54.48 | SpeedEvil | arachnid: probably. |
| 01:54.59 | quinton | orzo, to what end? |
| 01:55.08 | arachnid | Given that it's only USB1.1, wouldn't it make more sense if it was on an internal bus instead? |
| 01:55.27 | arachnid | In fact, I think it would have to be - the CPU only has one host and one host/device port for USB |
| 01:55.29 | SpeedEvil | arachnid: SPI tops out at 25mbits/sec. |
| 01:55.35 | orzo | quinton, experiments in computer vision. Try to recreate a 3d scene from a single video |
| 01:56.06 | SpeedEvil | orzo: the accels are _nowhere_ near good enough for that. |
| 01:56.17 | SpeedEvil | Look at the Accelerometer_Fundamentals page on the wiki |
| 01:56.21 | arachnid | SpeedEvil: That still beats USB 1.1 |
| 01:56.33 | SpeedEvil | arachnid: but not by much. And there is other stuff on there. |
| 01:56.41 | SpeedEvil | arachnid: the audio, forex. |
| 01:56.57 | arachnid | 25mbit vs what, 12 for 'hi speed' usb 1.1? |
| 01:57.00 | arachnid | That's a fair bit |
| 01:57.01 | quinton | orzo, that's amazingly cool |
| 01:57.06 | orzo | if they arent good enough for that, they probably arent good enough to try to use to try to correct the recording for a shaky hand? |
| 01:57.15 | SpeedEvil | No, they aren't. |
| 01:57.46 | arachnid | And 48khz 24bit stereo pcm is only going to use ~300kbit |
| 01:57.58 | SpeedEvil | Scheduling is not nice. |
| 01:58.07 | SpeedEvil | On SPI. |
| 01:58.20 | SpeedEvil | It's not all done for you as it is on USB. |
| 01:58.36 | arachnid | I still can't see performance for wifi being worse on SPI than USB, somehow |
| 01:59.02 | SpeedEvil | IIRC it's not a 'g' chipset anyway. |
| 01:59.33 | orzo | SpeedEvil, im not sure the accelerometers have to be really good. If they aren't, we can maybe add another camera and use two views combined with simple direction hints from the acelerometers |
| 02:00.01 | SpeedEvil | The accels do not give direction other than where 'down' is. |
| 02:00.19 | *** join/#openmoko mindCrime (n=chatzill@cpe-065-190-188-124.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 02:00.47 | SpeedEvil | REad thehttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals |
| 02:01.34 | roh | arachnid wifi for gta02 will be sdio based. so its actually faster than spi and much less power wasting than usb |
| 02:01.48 | SpeedEvil | Fun. |
| 02:01.52 | SpeedEvil | What about bluetooth? |
| 02:01.56 | SpeedEvil | Does that move off USB? |
| 02:02.23 | roh | afaik not. |
| 02:02.33 | SpeedEvil | Oh well. |
| 02:03.01 | SpeedEvil | At least it seems I was wrong about USB and clocking, whihc is nice. Thought it couldn't be used at much less than full speed. |
| 02:03.08 | SpeedEvil | Which will help lots. |
| 02:03.20 | SpeedEvil | (for BT active life) |
| 02:04.58 | roh | SpeedEvil the problem with usb and powersaving is not clocking, but that you need to keep it fully active and continue polling devices since there is no irq line. spi/sdio based io devices just sleep and throw irqs when they need attention |
| 02:05.05 | SpeedEvil | I know. |
| 02:05.19 | SpeedEvil | Being able to drop the clocks down at least helps a bit though. |
| 02:05.35 | SpeedEvil | You still need to keep the CPU way too alive for deep powersave. |
| 02:06.01 | roh | so its not really a problem, but just a minor 'un-niceness' which is enforced by what connections the usable chipset components have to choose for us |
| 02:06.03 | SpeedEvil | But it means battery life of at least a substantial fraction of a day with BT on. |
| 02:07.04 | SpeedEvil | Indeed - I'm just saying that it would have been nice to be able to suspend. |
| 02:07.13 | roh | BT on needs much more power for the rf interface so that is and will be a powerwaster when left on. as on every other mobile |
| 02:07.18 | arachnid | Wait, so bluetooth is on USB? |
| 02:07.25 | SpeedEvil | arachnid: yes. |
| 02:07.50 | roh | SpeedEvil we can suspend it any time. but then its off and not 'sleeping and waiting for packets' |
| 02:08.01 | *** join/#openmoko aesci7E (n=aesci99@125.33.225.203) |
| 02:08.10 | SpeedEvil | roh: I know - I mean asleep and waking for packets. |
| 02:08.13 | arachnid | If I read the docs for the CPU correctly, that means there isn't space for any more usb devices without introducing a hub anyway |
| 02:08.16 | SpeedEvil | Which isn't possible. |
| 02:08.23 | SpeedEvil | arachnid: hubs can be tiny. |
| 02:08.27 | roh | arachnid ack |
| 02:08.27 | orzo | it would be cool if the accelermeters could be used to make the phone's screen into a physically movable window into a 3d rendered universe. |
| 02:08.34 | SpeedEvil | I'm planning on jamming one into my P1. |
| 02:08.51 | SpeedEvil | orzo: you can't do that really - other than just X/Y tilt. |
| 02:08.56 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@c-76-30-222-129.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 02:09.02 | roh | orzo sounds like a major project if you want to start that.. but very cool. |
| 02:09.14 | arachnid | very cool indeed :) |
| 02:09.30 | SpeedEvil | orzo: Much more is _hard_ The noise from current generation of accelerometers is quite bad. |
| 02:10.11 | SpeedEvil | (jamming a USB hub in) to attach a dock port on the back. And maybe wifi. |
| 02:11.36 | *** join/#openmoko chouse (n=chadh@CPE001057000aad-CM001225d73c82.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 02:14.53 | *** join/#openmoko chreekat (n=b@ip72-213-26-114.om.om.cox.net) |
| 02:15.17 | *** join/#openmoko khester (n=khester@c-24-4-236-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 02:17.12 | BlackBsd | so if openembedded works on freebsd, that does NOT mean openmoko will work on freebsd correct? |
| 02:17.22 | chouse | Has anyone here who ordered a neo received an order confirmation email? |
| 02:17.33 | orzo | no |
| 02:17.38 | Jason1 | chou: no |
| 02:17.48 | SpeedEvil | Do you mean a 'we've charged your card' email? |
| 02:17.52 | orzo | because there is no neo |
| 02:17.54 | SpeedEvil | many people have recieved a ticket |
| 02:17.55 | orzo | its an elaborate hoax |
| 02:18.07 | chouse | I got the initial ticket, but nothing since |
| 02:18.21 | Jason1 | chouse: Same with all of us |
| 02:18.52 | Jason1 | chouse: Rumor has it, they may start processing orders on Monday |
| 02:19.02 | orzo | it's a conspiracy to keep open source hackers from doing anything productive by inventing a fictitious device for them to work on. |
| 02:19.03 | chouse | Okay, just wondering if it was just me... |
| 02:19.19 | Jason1 | chouse: Unortunately not :) |
| 02:20.24 | sagaci2 | I got an "order accepted, your number is #19XX" e-mail right after my order |
| 02:20.35 | sagaci2 | If you didn't get one of those, you probably didn't place an order |
| 02:20.36 | orzo | i got it long after my order |
| 02:20.56 | chouse | sagaci2: Yep, got one of those |
| 02:21.20 | Jason1 | orza: It was supposed to be an automated email, but their system were overwhelmed, and several people reported delayed delivery |
| 02:21.26 | orzo | no wait |
| 02:21.33 | orzo | i didnt get "order accepted" |
| 02:21.49 | Jason1 | sagaci2: read the last line of your email |
| 02:21.52 | orzo | i did get Autoreply:OpenMoko direct order |
| 02:22.21 | orzo | "You will receive another message as order confirmation after our staff has accepted it." |
| 02:22.43 | orzo | has sagaci2 actually got that other message? |
| 02:26.42 | orzo | has anybody done a touch screen interface to interactive porn? |
| 02:26.43 | SpeedEvil | Nobody has reported getting more messages. |
| 02:27.09 | orzo | give the girl on screen an orgasm by touching her just right |
| 02:27.39 | Jason1 | thats all we need is a bunch of pervs playing with their "virtual pet" on the subway :) |
| 02:27.48 | orzo | heheh |
| 02:28.08 | quinton | wasn't there a japanese game for the DS like that...? |
| 02:28.44 | SpeedEvil | There are many games in Japan like that. |
| 02:28.48 | SpeedEvil | Japan is a strange place. |
| 02:29.00 | *** join/#openmoko matthew (n=matthew@adsl-210-179-20.sdf.bellsouth.net) |
| 02:29.07 | aloril | it seems like 150-250 orders day before? (35XX - 3054) |
| 02:29.16 | matthew | how does the neo1973 plug into your computer? |
| 02:29.23 | SpeedEvil | The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. |
| 02:29.24 | orzo | usb |
| 02:29.32 | orzo | or bluetooth |
| 02:29.37 | Jason1 | I think they should be over-sold now |
| 02:29.38 | orzo | or in october, wifi |
| 02:29.50 | matthew | so i can run commands using my computer keyboard, through USB, on the neo? |
| 02:30.00 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 02:30.03 | matthew | nice |
| 02:30.04 | orzo | you can ssh into the phone |
| 02:30.05 | SpeedEvil | ssh/... works |
| 02:30.18 | SpeedEvil | it's basically a X box, with some limited phone apps on it. |
| 02:30.30 | matthew | how do you ssh through usb? |
| 02:30.35 | orzo | "X box" microsoft shows its brilliance |
| 02:30.36 | SpeedEvil | USBnet |
| 02:30.54 | SpeedEvil | Meh |
| 02:31.00 | matthew | i always bought cheap webhosts that don't have ssh, so i'm not that familiar with it |
| 02:31.22 | SpeedEvil | matthew: it's not a user-phone at the moment. It's barely a phone. |
| 02:31.27 | SpeedEvil | (sogtwarewise) |
| 02:31.37 | Jason1 | matthew: think of it as a remote terminal session |
| 02:31.52 | matthew | i know what ssh is, just not familiar with how it works |
| 02:32.01 | orzo | are you familiar with linux commands? |
| 02:32.02 | matthew | i will figure it out though |
| 02:32.10 | matthew | very |
| 02:32.19 | matthew | using it right now |
| 02:32.52 | orzo | well ssh brings up a console where you can run bash commands but they are running on the phone |
| 02:33.12 | matthew | yeah, but what is the command to log in? |
| 02:33.25 | matthew | or connect, i should say |
| 02:33.25 | orzo | boring details |
| 02:33.28 | orzo | go read a manual |
| 02:33.29 | orzo | heh |
| 02:33.32 | matthew | heh, important though |
| 02:33.37 | orzo | ssh ipaddress |
| 02:33.44 | orzo | ssh user@hostname |
| 02:33.56 | matthew | but if it's through usb... |
| 02:34.13 | orzo | the usb will emulate an tcp/ip interface |
| 02:34.17 | orzo | in ifconfig |
| 02:34.33 | matthew | ok |
| 02:35.15 | matthew | is there a calendar app in development? linux barely has any good calendar apps itself, unfortunately. |
| 02:35.36 | orzo | it's called at |
| 02:35.41 | orzo | heh |
| 02:35.47 | orzo | man at |
| 02:36.02 | matthew | hahahah |
| 02:36.04 | quinton | heh, i would have said 'cal' =) |
| 02:36.21 | matthew | i use at all the time bro |
| 02:36.52 | matthew | echo |
| 02:37.05 | matthew | echo 'go to work' | at 6:30am |
| 02:38.57 | *** join/#openmoko kiney (n=kiney@p54882528.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 02:44.24 | Jason1 | new Wiki page? |
| 02:44.24 | Jason1 | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Direct.openmoko.com_order_process |
| 02:45.12 | Jason1 | posted by: HaraldWelte |
| 02:47.21 | Jason1 | Also this page is new: |
| 02:47.22 | matthew | which virtual terminal does it use? xterm? |
| 02:47.22 | Jason1 | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Developer_preview |
| 02:48.39 | quinton | i noticed that the screen fits exactly 80 columns of my favourite font =) |
| 02:50.54 | quinton | does it have a virtual terminal? i think i remember reading that it had virtual consoles though |
| 02:51.39 | quinton | i mean, the ones you can switch between using alt-ctrl-f<x> |
| 02:52.01 | matthew | oh |
| 02:52.11 | madwoota | screen? |
| 02:52.37 | matthew | how can you ctrl+alt+f1 on a phone though? |
| 02:53.30 | quinton | bluetooth/usb keyboard? i guess you'd need one for the console to be very usable anyway |
| 02:53.32 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@md18836d0.tmodns.net) |
| 02:54.03 | matthew | ok |
| 02:57.20 | galexande | well, the keys would be rebindable |
| 02:59.05 | quinton | i wonder how well the 'bb' aalib demo would run on the phase 1s. i remember hearing it they wouldn't be fast enough to do normal video |
| 02:59.23 | galexande | i would assume bb would look and run great, i might bother to find out |
| 03:00.32 | *** join/#openmoko SP-8472 (i=8472@dslb-084-056-231-126.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 03:06.41 | arachnid | Video would depend on the codec, surely? |
| 03:06.55 | arachnid | MPEG1/MPEG2 are pretty low CPU (comparatively speaking), aren't theY? |
| 03:07.47 | quinton | i think it was due to the time it would take to update the whole screen |
| 03:07.50 | galexande | arachnid, i can play 8fps 300x225 mpeg1 with a non-special player on a similar processor |
| 03:08.14 | galexande | but 640x480, that's a lot of ram to write to, i don't know how fast the ram runs |
| 03:08.36 | arachnid | True |
| 03:08.40 | arachnid | 8fps is kind of pitiful. :P |
| 03:08.53 | arachnid | But can't the device be set to a lower resolution? |
| 03:09.06 | arachnid | Say, 320x240, and it draws 4 pixels from one location? |
| 03:09.13 | *** join/#openmoko Skwid_ (n=Skwid@bas1-montreal42-1178046979.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 03:09.44 | galexande | i've been told that is possible. it's still a lot of ram to write. i'm really curious to find out. |
| 03:09.46 | quinton | it's a vga screen, so i'm sure that's possible |
| 03:10.04 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=rd@toi.yeu.phu.nu) |
| 03:10.04 | galexande | well it's an lcd, but i think the lcd has a pixel-doubling mode specifically for this |
| 03:10.36 | arachnid | Talking ~5.5MB/sec for 320x240x24bit at 25fps |
| 03:10.44 | arachnid | I guess that's a fair bit for a device like this, true |
| 03:10.54 | quinton | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Video_Player |
| 03:11.21 | arachnid | Gives you a new appreciation for just how much bandwidth fullscreen video on a computer consumes :) |
| 03:11.32 | galexande | there is an lcd driver integrated into the cpu, so i think it is like an "agp shared memory aperture" card |
| 03:11.36 | galexande | the ram could be really fast though |
| 03:12.19 | arachnid | Rotation on the fly shouldn't be a big issue, surely? |
| 03:12.21 | quinton | arachnid, yeah, when you think of all the bits and bytes moving around in even a small movie, it boggles the mind |
| 03:12.27 | arachnid | It's jsut a matter of writing pixels to the memory in a different order |
| 03:12.48 | galexande | wow, that's great news about the stock mplayer times, quinton |
| 03:12.59 | arachnid | indeed |
| 03:13.14 | galexande | rotation can require scaling |
| 03:13.20 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@bas4-ottawa23-1167864368.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 03:13.27 | arachnid | Pity it requires videos encoded specifically for the device, but what cellphone doesn't? |
| 03:13.39 | arachnid | galexande: I'm talking about taking a 320x240 video and displaying it on a 240x320 display |
| 03:13.44 | arachnid | Eg, landscape |
| 03:13.45 | galexande | i used to encode 240x160 8fps mpeg1s to watch on my ipaq :) |
| 03:13.50 | arachnid | heh |
| 03:14.16 | quinton | will the phase2 have the same problems for video, or will it be fixed by the 2d acceleration? |
| 03:14.17 | galexande | i could just fit one 45-minute episode of star trek into its 24MB of free psace |
| 03:14.30 | galexande | quinton, presumably fixed |
| 03:14.56 | SpeedEvil | faster cpu too |
| 03:15.22 | galexande | hahaha i was just thinking "i miss speedevil" |
| 03:15.58 | arachnid | Hm. 2d acceleration can't eliminate the need to shift that many bits around, though |
| 03:16.38 | linux_galore | build your own Linux phone http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5947466557.html |
| 03:18.39 | linux_galore | there is a question, will the GTA02 have enough grunt to play avi's |
| 03:18.49 | arachnid | That would depend on the codec |
| 03:19.12 | linux_galore | lets say xvid |
| 03:20.15 | linux_galore | my GP2X can play xvid files without re encoding just fine |
| 03:20.16 | galexande | arachnid, it might, if it uses separate video ram or something |
| 03:20.27 | quinton | other devices that play video generally do codec stuff in hardware, don't they? |
| 03:20.39 | linux_galore | quinton: not the GP2X |
| 03:21.00 | galexande | like, if it has a mode where it will essentially dma mpeg from the cpu and theneverything else is off the cpu, it would of course be trivial |
| 03:21.08 | galexande | but that is a little unlikely :) |
| 03:21.21 | linux_galore | although the GP2X has two cpu's one dedicated to vido |
| 03:21.25 | linux_galore | video* |
| 03:22.45 | galexande | heh i love that they mentioned openmoko in the article |
| 03:22.51 | arachnid | galexande: You've still got to transfer the data from system ram to the video ram, though |
| 03:22.52 | linux_galore | Ive watched video on old P2's with 128mb of ram just fine |
| 03:22.57 | orzo | which article? |
| 03:23.08 | galexande | arachnid, yeah, but if you can reduce it to transfering the compressed data then that's not too much work |
| 03:23.17 | orzo | oh the dyi linux phone |
| 03:23.34 | arachnid | galexande: That'll only work if the 2d accelerator has hardware decoding support for the codec in question |
| 03:23.44 | galexande | arachnid, exactly |
| 03:24.42 | orzo | i intend to implement a simple bankbook on the phone |
| 03:25.03 | orzo | that will verify purchaces against your account and checking for discreprencies |
| 03:25.18 | arachnid | You've just provided an example of how investment can do the exact opposite, _impoverishing_ other people. |
| 03:25.19 | galexande | i have a little checkbook register i port to every palmtop i buy |
| 03:25.26 | arachnid | oops. wrong channel. :) |
| 03:25.27 | aevin | i guess some of you've seen this? http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5947466557.html |
| 03:25.40 | arachnid | Yup |
| 03:25.45 | galexande | aevin, the question is how many times can we see it in one day :) |
| 03:25.49 | *** join/#openmoko MrFeetio (n=david@c-71-230-5-247.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 03:25.51 | orzo | well i've never owned a palmtop before, galexande |
| 03:25.52 | arachnid | I don't think it's much of a competition. |
| 03:25.52 | linux_galore | I bet most if not all the OpenMoko software could be made to work pretty easily on the Goliath." |
| 03:26.00 | linux_galore | quote ^^ |
| 03:26.01 | arachnid | You can have an openmoko, or a gumstix held together with tape ;) |
| 03:26.06 | aevin | galexande: infinite. (or the max bandwidth of your irc server) |
| 03:26.08 | arachnid | Since there's no cases and no batteries available. :P |
| 03:26.12 | quinton | heh, that's neat |
| 03:26.24 | galexande | well from an openmoko perspective, the gumstix is just another target. |
| 03:26.32 | quinton | i dread to think the abominations that would be spawned. |
| 03:26.35 | arachnid | true :) |
| 03:26.42 | arachnid | I meant to say a Neo |
| 03:27.08 | arachnid | Though interestingly, the place I work at does one of their example applications - fleet tracking - with custom hardware :) |
| 03:27.12 | quinton | unfortunately i dunno how wise it is to carry around ugly electronics nowadays |
| 03:27.17 | aevin | galexande: yup. potentially more users. and more developers :) |
| 03:27.39 | arachnid | I suspect that now we're past the initial costs it's cheaper than using gumstix, but it would've been an attractive proposition if it was around when we started. |
| 03:27.42 | orzo | why is it unwise to carry aorund ugly electronics? |
| 03:28.00 | Jason1 | quinton: good point. Dont want to be holding a bundle of circuit boards in hte airport, im sure |
| 03:28.09 | orzo | heh |
| 03:28.16 | quinton | yeah, or on a train |
| 03:28.20 | linux_galore | heh, no its not a bomb is my Linux phone |
| 03:28.25 | linux_galore | its* |
| 03:28.34 | Jason1 | linux_galore: famous last words. |
| 03:28.52 | Jason1 | linux_galore: as the police open fire |
| 03:29.15 | orzo | how does a multitouch differ from non? |
| 03:29.23 | orzo | it is a hardware difference right? |
| 03:29.26 | galexande | well i'm addicted to packaging, i need a phone that isn't held togetehr by duct tape |
| 03:29.43 | galexande | orzo, the iphone screen is a totally different technology than the neo one |
| 03:29.48 | arachnid | orzo: I believe that for a true multitouch, it's a hardware difference |
| 03:29.52 | quinton | i like how the neo doesn't have any moving parts |
| 03:30.04 | arachnid | But for 2-touch, it could be implemented in software on an existing device |
| 03:30.04 | quinton | those swivel things are designed to break |
| 03:30.04 | arachnid | With sufficient driver hackery |
| 03:30.04 | galexande | arachnid, eh? |
| 03:30.10 | linux_galore | yeah, imagine some geek talking into a pile of wires and circuit board on the train with his backpack.... question, how long before some hero beats the crap out of him |
| 03:30.44 | arachnid | galexande: If you want to record an arbitrary number of contacts, you can't use the scan-matrix approach employed by standard touchscreens due to ghosting issues |
| 03:30.50 | arachnid | But it ought to be possible to detect two |
| 03:30.54 | galexande | i mean, you might be able to detect that a multi-touch event is occuring, but i don't see how you would know the location of the other finger with any confidence, for example if it moved at all |
| 03:31.08 | galexande | it is scan matrix? i thought it was resistive |
| 03:31.20 | arachnid | That's my understanding from an earlier conversation |
| 03:31.23 | arachnid | I'm probably wrong ;) |
| 03:31.37 | orzo | is it possible to implement a game controller on the touch screen which you select a 1 of 8 directions with one thumb, and one of two buttons with the other? |
| 03:31.42 | galexande | arachnid, i think you're thinking of traditional single-touch touchpads, which are different from teh neo's touchscreen as well. |
| 03:32.00 | arachnid | I also saw something on the mialing list about the manufacturer saying it was possible in theory |
| 03:32.09 | galexande | orzo, i *wish* |
| 03:32.24 | galexande | there are a lot of hacks which kinda-sorta offer similar functionality |
| 03:32.37 | arachnid | Looks like there's a whole bunch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_Screen |
| 03:32.53 | arachnid | Can't say much intelligent without knowing which one the Neo is using :) |
| 03:33.51 | galexande | i think neo is resistive, and "trackpads" are capacitive, and the iphone is capacitev |
| 03:34.06 | orzo | galexande, do you have a phone yet? |
| 03:34.33 | galexande | i dream |
| 03:34.59 | orzo | if it were even doable, would our controller be at all comfortable to use? |
| 03:34.59 | galexande | in dreams i walk with you / in dreams i talk on you |
| 03:35.21 | galexande | orzo, if i think of a good way to do it, i'm gonna port doom |
| 03:35.24 | Jason1 | galexande: LOL |
| 03:35.45 | galexande | that would make an awful openmoko28 video on youtube |
| 03:35.58 | quinton | i still haven't given up on the idea of nethack on the neo |
| 03:35.59 | orzo | does doom need porting? prboom will run on X, right? |
| 03:36.06 | galexande | quinton, nethack would be totally trivial |
| 03:36.13 | orzo | or whatever the latest doom engine is |
| 03:36.15 | *** part/#openmoko Skwid_ (n=Skwid@bas1-montreal42-1178046979.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 03:36.18 | galexande | orzo, most of the porting effort will be controls |
| 03:36.25 | galexande | since there are no buttons |
| 03:36.42 | orzo | i just wanted to put nintendo games on it |
| 03:36.49 | orzo | heh |
| 03:36.54 | arachnid | One of the graphical nethack interfaces would be nice :) |
| 03:38.59 | *** join/#openmoko switch3r (n=switch3r@dsktop.student.umd.edu) |
| 03:42.14 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 03:43.08 | orzo | how close can GPS pinpoint a location? |
| 03:44.02 | Jason1 | 3 meters, right? |
| 03:45.54 | Agrajag- | if you have a lot of satellites in view, better than that |
| 03:46.31 | arachnid | Depends on where in the world you are, too |
| 03:46.38 | arachnid | Here in NZ, the best we get is 3 meters |
| 03:46.50 | arachnid | Actually, isn't that the best you can get without correction data? |
| 03:47.43 | ATravelingGeek | I believe so |
| 03:48.09 | notserpe | i thought the silence and waiting was bad enough but the gmail repeats are back on the lists :( |
| 03:48.34 | Agrajag- | aloril: you think laf0rge was pissed because it wasn't clear enough that it wasn't an end user phone? |
| 03:48.34 | Jason1 | notserpe: yup |
| 03:49.05 | Jason1 | Agrajag-: what happened? I must have missed it |
| 03:49.23 | Agrajag- | Jason1: planet.openmoko.org - note that was a couple of days ago |
| 03:49.24 | aloril | Agrajag-: ah, dunno about that |
| 03:49.37 | Agrajag- | aloril: oh ok |
| 03:50.01 | aloril | Agrajag-: 1) burning out 2) getting stuff done (see his previous blog entries) |
| 03:50.26 | aloril | just guesses, but he was close to burning out at February (according to his words) |
| 03:51.05 | Jason1 | maybe there is another delay planned? |
| 03:51.18 | Agrajag- | yeah.. but because the first batch got sold so quickly, i'd say either they're gonna be amazingly happy because of the all the dev work being done, or lots of users are going to get their phone and go "nothing works!" :P |
| 03:51.23 | *** join/#openmoko evanpro_ (n=evan@modemcable160.136-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 03:51.23 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 03:52.28 | aloril | maybe not that much change ;-) |
| 03:52.36 | Agrajag- | hopefully :) |
| 03:52.53 | aloril | Jason1: don |
| 03:53.03 | Jason1 | I dont too many people were expected a consumer-ready phone |
| 03:53.08 | aloril | Jason1: don't see any other delay than customs |
| 03:53.15 | Jason1 | Correction, I DONT think too many people. |
| 03:53.31 | notserpe | they haven't confirmed anyone's order yet right? |
| 03:53.36 | aloril | it did say developer preview, but dunno how many read that correctly |
| 03:53.42 | Jason1 | aloril; hopefuly hte phones are already in the US. Hopefully |
| 03:53.49 | orzo | could the phone be made to lie to the A-GPS server? |
| 03:53.52 | notserpe | they can just follow up with a confirmation email (sure it's work but better than PO'd buyers) |
| 03:54.02 | aloril | Jason1: maybe, but I suspect they are still in Chinese customs |
| 03:54.29 | aloril | orzo: you could prohibit connection to A-GPS server |
| 03:54.32 | Jason1 | aloril: yeah, you may be right |
| 03:54.34 | galexande | orzo, i think the information flows only from server to client in this case |
| 03:54.37 | arachnid | Do we know they sold really quickly? |
| 03:55.23 | arachnid | I know people were looking at order numbers, but last I saw there were plenty left at buest guess |
| 03:55.23 | arachnid | er, best |
| 03:55.23 | galexande | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS |
| 03:55.23 | Jason1 | arachnid: They should be sold out |
| 03:55.23 | Jason1 | They only had 1000, right |
| 03:55.24 | arachnid | yes |
| 03:55.41 | notserpe | what was the last #? |
| 03:55.48 | notserpe | s/last/latest/ |
| 03:55.49 | aloril | arachnid: 1000 units, yesterday somebody had 35XX rt ticket number, first order ticket number is 1820 |
| 03:55.50 | Jason1 | 3263 on the P1 Owners list |
| 03:55.59 | orzo | no, wikipedia tells me that AGPS measn that the phone sends a fragmentary signal to a server somewhere which has better reception |
| 03:56.02 | arachnid | AFAIK yes, basic AGPS functionality is just the ability to download almanack and ephemeris data over the network |
| 03:56.06 | arachnid | aloril: hm, okay |
| 03:56.18 | Jason1 | 1400 orders, give or take? |
| 03:56.19 | arachnid | And I'm sure I'm not the only person |
| 03:56.44 | aloril | unless lots of those are spam or some rt tickets created other ways, they are mostly orders |
| 03:56.45 | Jason1 | arachnid: better add yourself then :) |
| 03:56.51 | arachnid | Jason1: where is it? |
| 03:57.05 | Jason1 | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners |
| 03:57.07 | aloril | anyway, it was at 1800 before ordering and that is for 1/2 year at least I assume |
| 03:57.36 | aloril | and of course we don't know how many units/order on average ;-) |
| 03:58.00 | notserpe | people have ordered 2s and 3s... (I ordered 2) |
| 03:58.04 | Jason1 | aloril: yup. but assuming it is fairly close to 1 per order... they should still be sold out |
| 03:58.21 | aloril | yes |
| 03:58.30 | Jason1 | notserpe: I know there where a fair number of "group orders" |
| 03:58.36 | orzo | will our P1 phones have any value when P2 comes out? |
| 03:58.43 | arachnid | glad I got in early, then. :) |
| 03:58.47 | littertiger | Does http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners list all the neo owners? |
| 03:58.51 | Jason1 | orzo, as a paperweight, yes :) |
| 03:58.52 | aloril | even with sudden generous increase in internal rt ticket numbers its still sold out |
| 03:58.53 | arachnid | littertiger: no |
| 03:59.03 | arachnid | just those that have added themselves |
| 03:59.04 | notserpe | orzo: a stable, oss unlocked phone with GPS? probably. |
| 03:59.15 | littertiger | arachnid: i c |
| 03:59.29 | Jason1 | orzo: just kidding, people have been asking for a board-only upgrade option |
| 03:59.29 | sagaci2 | I can't take a wifi phone to work, technically, so it's still valuable to me |
| 03:59.45 | arachnid | Why on earth not? |
| 03:59.45 | sagaci2 | I would take a board-only upgrade option though |
| 03:59.59 | sagaci2 | Security. I work in a controlled environment |
| 04:00.09 | *** join/#openmoko Q_Continuum (n=Q@rrcs-67-52-219-78.west.biz.rr.com) |
| 04:00.11 | sagaci2 | "secret" clearance and all that |
| 04:00.14 | orzo | i used to not be allowed to take a camera towork |
| 04:00.15 | arachnid | Then surely they shouldn't let you take a USB or bluetooth enabled phone either? |
| 04:00.16 | Jason1 | sagaci2: me too! Of course I need my P1 phone first :) |
| 04:00.19 | orzo | on a phone |
| 04:00.20 | sagaci2 | Mostly, it's inane ignorance of technology |
| 04:00.20 | rwhitby | so many hopes placed on a board-only upgrade option which will probably never happen ... |
| 04:00.24 | galexande | well, it looks like a zaurus sl-5500 is even worth a littl ebit on ebay still |
| 04:00.28 | arachnid | Ah, right. :) |
| 04:00.30 | sagaci2 | Right, you'd think |
| 04:00.52 | sagaci2 | We don't have any bluetooth computers in the plant, so it's allowed |
| 04:00.55 | arachnid | I can see a phone capable of recording or transmitting sound being a major hazard, too ;) |
| 04:00.57 | sagaci2 | we are not allowed to connec<t |
| 04:01.04 | Jason1 | rwhitby: But if not, there is still plenty of use for hte "old" version |
| 04:01.04 | sagaci2 | to computers with usb devices |
| 04:01.25 | sagaci2 | Recording is too, but I can promise to not do that. |
| 04:01.25 | arachnid | Sure, but I bet you're not allowed to steal secrets, either... |
| 04:01.41 | sagaci2 | They had a real problem when suddenly every phone had a camera |
| 04:01.45 | arachnid | If that's your aim, 'not allowed' isn't much of an obstacle, is it? :) |
| 04:01.55 | arachnid | (I'm talking hypothetically here, of course) |
| 04:02.10 | sagaci2 | So, now we are allowed to have a camera phone if we don't intend to use the camera |
| 04:02.16 | Jason1 | sagaci2: How do they determine if a phone is wifi capable or not? |
| 04:02.34 | sagaci2 | But, we can't take in a camera, even if we have a valid reason to use it there (as part of a software project, eg) |
| 04:02.35 | galexande | they ask you :) |
| 04:02.44 | sagaci2 | They walk around with sniffers |
| 04:02.54 | orzo | i used to do standardized test grading |
| 04:03.01 | orzo | and had those kinds of security restrictions |
| 04:03.03 | sagaci2 | Although honestly, most people have wifi phones these days, so I guess they just ignore it? |
| 04:03.03 | aloril | Currently sold Neo1973 GTA01B_v04 (P1) doesn't have WiFi, GTA02 (P2) which is scheduled for October will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F |
| 04:03.07 | orzo | they were afraid we'd give out the answers to the test |
| 04:03.19 | orzo | or something |
| 04:03.24 | Jason1 | Does you phone have WiFi? (circle one) |
| 04:03.25 | Jason1 | A) Yes |
| 04:03.25 | Jason1 | B) No |
| 04:03.29 | sagaci2 | I can just get those online |
| 04:03.52 | orzo | most people have wifi phones? |
| 04:03.58 | orzo | i dont know anybody with a wifi phone |
| 04:04.03 | sagaci2 | My wife, a professor, was just on an essay-writing website. In the FAQ, the question "is it legal?" was answered as: |
| 04:04.21 | orzo | is what legal? |
| 04:04.32 | sagaci2 | "You can always legally buy anything legal that isn't prohibited by law" |
| 04:04.45 | orzo | heh |
| 04:04.46 | sagaci2 | paying for essay writing |
| 04:04.47 | arachnid | Oookay. |
| 04:04.51 | orzo | heh |
| 04:04.59 | arachnid | Kind of a tautology. |
| 04:05.02 | sagaci2 | many people I work with have wifi phones |
| 04:05.09 | orzo | ever do contract coding via a website? |
| 04:05.29 | sagaci2 | Do we really think the phones will ship on Monday? |
| 04:05.30 | Jason1 | Is anybosy else experiecing long delays in community list mail delivery? |
| 04:05.35 | orzo | i swear a lot of those cheapo contracts are kiddies trying to get us to do their homework |
| 04:05.55 | Jason1 | like 1.5-2 hours... |
| 04:05.55 | galexande | wow, iphone doesn't even have wifi |
| 04:06.17 | jeddy3 | uhm, yes is does |
| 04:06.35 | jeddy3 | s/is/it |
| 04:06.40 | sagaci2 | Yes, the iPhone was specifically verboten at my job |
| 04:06.43 | orzo | can you ssh into the iphone? |
| 04:06.56 | galexande | orzo, not on purpose |
| 04:07.03 | Jason1 | orzo: I think they hacked it... |
| 04:07.04 | orzo | heh |
| 04:07.05 | galexande | apple's purpose, not yours |
| 04:07.15 | galexande | oh, it has wifi, i just misread |
| 04:07.34 | orzo | lets get openmoko on the iphone |
| 04:07.35 | orzo | heh |
| 04:07.55 | sagaci2 | That would be awesome |
| 04:08.10 | sagaci2 | Know anybody with an iPhone we can flash? |
| 04:08.15 | Jason1 | orzo: better yet, how about we call FIC from an iPhone and find out what the delay is :) |
| 04:08.26 | sagaci2 | ooooooo. |
| 04:10.08 | orzo | att struck a secret deal with fic to cancel the neo |
| 04:10.28 | Jason1 | orzo: Are they going to ship us iPhones instead? |
| 04:10.37 | orzo | heh |
| 04:10.40 | orzo | would you want them to? |
| 04:10.46 | sagaci2 | Is ATT going to put the same limitations on us as they did the iPhone? |
| 04:10.48 | Jason1 | orzo: definately not |
| 04:10.54 | sagaci2 | I'd like multi-though |
| 04:10.57 | arachnid | Esp. since they wouldn't work here |
| 04:11.06 | arachnid | sagaci2: Er, how would they do that? :) |
| 04:11.31 | orzo | ATT is my carier |
| 04:11.33 | sagaci2 | Sorry. Too much wine. "touch" |
| 04:11.37 | sagaci2 | Mine too |
| 04:11.38 | Jason1 | orzo: Im sorry |
| 04:11.42 | orzo | i bet tehy'll give me a hard time if i try to activate the neo |
| 04:11.48 | sagaci2 | I've been happy with them (as Cingular) |
| 04:11.56 | sagaci2 | I won't tell them. |
| 04:11.56 | arachnid | I meant how would they put restrictions on the Neo |
| 04:12.10 | sagaci2 | They put restrictions on iPhone usage... |
| 04:12.11 | arachnid | orzo: How will they tell? Just put an activated sim card into it. |
| 04:12.17 | orzo | they were cingular for me too |
| 04:12.19 | Jason1 | sagaci2: You could call up there tech support and ask questions about how to get GPRS to work on you Neo, or something |
| 04:12.20 | sagaci2 | Even though they are exclusive |
| 04:12.31 | arachnid | sagaci2: Yes, but most of them are enforced by the phone itself |
| 04:12.36 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 04:12.37 | sagaci2 | heh heh heh |
| 04:12.42 | arachnid | In fact, all of them except the threat to cut you off, as far as I know |
| 04:13.12 | Jason1 | I still hav not seen an iPhone is person |
| 04:13.18 | sagaci2 | I'm sure they would be very good at the tech support telling me how to write software apps for the neo |
| 04:13.24 | Jason1 | of course, I dont have many friends :( |
| 04:13.26 | Jason1 | LOL |
| 04:13.38 | sagaci2 | I haven't seen an iPhone either |
| 04:13.40 | Jason1 | sagaci2: Of course. |
| 04:13.44 | arachnid | "Hello? AT&T? Yes, GCC is giving me this weird linker error..." |
| 04:13.50 | orzo | heh |
| 04:13.52 | sagaci2 | rofl |
| 04:14.00 | arachnid | *confused silence from the AT&T rep* |
| 04:14.26 | Jason1 | arachnid: "Please hold, sir while I ssh into your device..." |
| 04:14.41 | sagaci2 | "I'm sorry sir. We'll have to terminate your multi-year contract right now." |
| 04:15.03 | sagaci2 | "After I reflash your device into an iPhone" |
| 04:15.12 | Jason1 | sag LOl |
| 04:15.23 | *** join/#openmoko cryptnix (n=andrew@fw.levelsync.com) |
| 04:15.45 | orzo | can flashing be done via GSM? |
| 04:15.45 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 04:16.05 | arachnid | I doubt it |
| 04:16.13 | sagaci2 | I bet we could write a way to do it on the neo. See, it's superior in every way! |
| 04:16.16 | arachnid | AFAIK, you can't flash it while it's booted |
| 04:16.25 | Jason1 | orzo: sounds dangerous. |
| 04:16.25 | arachnid | (Someone more in the know tell me if I'm wrong here) |
| 04:16.27 | sagaci2 | DishNetwork can reflash over the satellite |
| 04:16.32 | arachnid | And you certainly can't use GSM when it's not booted |
| 04:17.01 | linux_galore | well if you md5 the package before the update it should work |
| 04:17.09 | arachnid | I guess you could do it by creating a ramdisk, using pivot_root to move root into the ramdisk, unmounting the original root, then flashing it |
| 04:17.25 | Jason1 | arachnid: maybe they dlload the image, set a flag, and send a signal to reboot the device/initiate flash utility?. |
| 04:17.33 | arachnid | Jason1: True, that could work too |
| 04:17.54 | arachnid | Only, wouldn't 'flashing' entail rewriting the storage, including where the image is stored? :) |
| 04:18.06 | linux_galore | lol, can you imaging the support people, ok open a shell and type vim /etc/... |
| 04:18.19 | Jason1 | arachnid: details... |
| 04:18.20 | arachnid | Anyway ,you could certainly modify arbitrary parts of the fs over gsm, so you could achieve nearly anything you want with that. :) |
| 04:18.21 | Jason1 | :) |
| 04:20.26 | linux_galore | hello is this Apache support, well I have java script problem on my NEO1973 GTA02...........yes its a phone..........no I dont smoke crack |
| 04:21.55 | ajmitch | excellent, OOM on building openmoko :) |
| 04:22.53 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 04:23.45 | happycube | lol |
| 04:24.46 | galexande | ugh the concept of providing tech support for this phone is terrifying |
| 04:24.53 | galexande | i have a suspicion openmoko hasn't really thought of it |
| 04:25.00 | arachnid | Not really |
| 04:25.10 | arachnid | For end users, it'll be no different in that respect than any other phone |
| 04:25.22 | linux_galore | yeah the reason the telco lock down the phones is thats the only way they can do any sane support |
| 04:25.24 | galexande | true enough |
| 04:25.26 | aevin | hmm.. all documentation about the samsung s3c2410 seems to have been updated (or simply re-uploaded) just recently, 07/07/07. |
| 04:25.32 | arachnid | For developers, or anyone hacking with it, the answer is pretty much "consult the community or deal with it yourself" |
| 04:25.36 | aevin | http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/productInfo.do?fmly_id=229&partnum=S3C2410#component03 |
| 04:25.56 | arachnid | linux_galore: Computer companies and ISPs deal with totally unlocked computers all the time :) |
| 04:26.13 | arachnid | The _main_ reason telcos lock down phones is so they can charge individually for every application |
| 04:26.20 | arachnid | Rather than collecting a meager fee as carriers |
| 04:26.30 | linux_galore | arachnid: yes but they charge $$$$$$$$$$ I cant see a user paying $90 per call for support |
| 04:26.55 | arachnid | Depends on who you're talking about |
| 04:26.56 | arachnid | ISPs don't |
| 04:27.16 | linux_galore | yeah but ISP's only do network stuff the rest isnt their problem |
| 04:27.31 | galexande | lots of isps wish they could, then they could be aol |
| 04:28.14 | arachnid | linux_galore: Same goes for telcos :) |
| 04:29.45 | quinton | what does the GTA stand for? |
| 04:30.33 | arachnid | Grand Theft Auto? |
| 04:30.37 | *** join/#openmoko heikkit (n=chatzill@c-67-188-122-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 04:30.47 | codyl|sleep | arachnid, hell ya |
| 04:31.12 | quinton | heh |
| 04:31.35 | arachnid | quinton: GTA where? |
| 04:31.51 | arachnid | Oh, right |
| 04:32.55 | *** join/#openmoko bmidgley_ (n=bmidgley@c-24-2-92-215.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 04:33.38 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 04:36.30 | linux_galore | hmm GPL/GNU Telephone |
| 04:36.33 | blindcoder | moin |
| 04:42.28 | *** join/#openmoko Heathen (i=powj@adsl-75-49-19-89.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net) |
| 04:43.48 | linux_galore | I think it means GSM Telephone A just means its the first in the series, now much details that i can see |
| 04:43.57 | linux_galore | not* |
| 04:44.11 | quinton | thanks for the info |
| 04:48.05 | cworth | Am I the onlyone getting lots of duplicated messages from openmoko-devel? |
| 04:48.35 | Jason1 | cworth: gmail is causing problems on the community list |
| 04:50.08 | arachnid | FWIW, I apologise for my part in it - my domain uses gmail. |
| 04:50.15 | cworth | I just received 6 or 7 copies of a message from Christopher Heiny (Subject: Re: multi-touch in X) with a couple of different data, (3 minutes apart). |
| 04:50.21 | arachnid | Oh, and your MTA is bad too, since it should discard messages with duplicate IDs. :) |
| 04:51.41 | cworth | arachnid: Well, there are at least two different IDs here too. |
| 04:52.15 | arachnid | Then you should only get two :) |
| 04:54.46 | cworth | arachnid: Yeah, but then how could I generate a good bug report about duplicate messages getting sent. ;-) |
| 04:55.01 | arachnid | heh |
| 04:55.05 | arachnid | True. :P |
| 04:56.06 | blindcoder | doesn't the MTA no longer care about that after the mail is delivered to procmail? |
| 04:57.02 | blindcoder | ajmitch: care to share the recipe? |
| 04:57.12 | arachnid | blindcoder: I think the MTA is supposed to filter out duplicates. I could be wrong. |
| 04:58.08 | CM | I just wish order@opemoko.com would mail instead ;) |
| 04:58.37 | arachnid | Has anyone received an order acceptance yet? |
| 04:58.41 | ajmitch | http://paste.debian.net/32631 |
| 04:58.58 | ajmitch | nothing complex, though msgid.cache doesn't need to be nearly that large |
| 04:59.01 | arachnid | I presume they haven't processed any orders at all |
| 04:59.07 | Jason1 | arachnid: nope :( |
| 04:59.35 | Jason1 | arachnid: I placed the first order. Hopefully I get my notification first :) |
| 04:59.43 | *** part/#openmoko gerikes (n=mhildret@pool-72-70-245-142.spfdma.east.verizon.net) |
| 04:59.48 | arachnid | Funny, if I had several hundred people holding their credit cards out, I'd be in a bit more of a hurry, even if I wasn't shipping until the 16th ;) |
| 04:59.50 | CM | Maybe they took this week off or something |
| 05:00.08 | arachnid | Jason1: Cool. I'm not far behind. :) |
| 05:00.12 | CM | Or at least doing something completely different |
| 05:00.21 | Jason1 | CM: Offical FIC holiday |
| 05:00.22 | CM | arachnid: Behind me.. :P |
| 05:00.28 | blindcoder | work |
| 05:00.29 | blindcoder | bbl |
| 05:00.41 | arachnid | CM: What's your number? |
| 05:00.50 | CM | arachnid: #1821 |
| 05:00.55 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@219-89-44-3.dialup.xtra.co.nz) |
| 05:01.12 | Jason1 | CM was justa little too slow :) |
| 05:01.16 | sagaci2 | I think they are waiting for customs |
| 05:01.23 | arachnid | ah |
| 05:01.26 | gcb77 | CM: have you heard anything from them yet? |
| 05:01.35 | CM | gcb77: Not a sound |
| 05:02.01 | CM | No reply to my mail asking if they could write "Development sample" on the shipping box either |
| 05:02.07 | Jason1 | gcb77_2: "Not a sound" is becoming all too typical :) |
| 05:02.20 | *** join/#openmoko adjaxio (n=adjaxio@81.56.215.221) |
| 05:02.47 | arachnid | Has there been _any_ official communication since orders opened? |
| 05:02.48 | gcb77 | CM: me neither... I have #1832 |
| 05:02.50 | arachnid | On the list, even? |
| 05:03.08 | linux_galore | CM: yeah some countries have a different import duty on dev samples |
| 05:03.12 | CM | arachnid: On the community list a bit |
| 05:03.27 | Jason1 | a blog post here and there... the lists have mostly been offline |
| 05:03.34 | CM | linux_galore: Exactly.. I'd be happy to save $75 or so |
| 05:03.47 | Jason1 | I think Sean posted a messageonthe list today |
| 05:04.55 | Jason1 | Anybody know if the OM team is working on Taiwan time or what? |
| 05:05.02 | Jason1 | Is their workday just starting? |
| 05:05.04 | linux_galore | CM: I dont have to pay much here in au for duty thanks to a free trade agreement with the USA |
| 05:05.33 | arachnid | No duties on cellphones here |
| 05:05.37 | arachnid | But GST is applied |
| 05:05.43 | arachnid | If it's over $400 |
| 05:06.00 | arachnid | If it's under, or marked as a gift, or (possibly) marked as a sample, it won't get charged, though :) |
| 05:06.17 | linux_galore | hmm |
| 05:06.32 | linux_galore | early edition of the GTA02 with sample may get through |
| 05:07.36 | linux_galore | anyway Im out |
| 05:07.40 | *** part/#openmoko linux_galore (n=Richard@dsl-220-253-69-10.NSW.netspace.net.au) |
| 05:08.48 | *** part/#openmoko Jason1 (n=ws1@c-24-15-3-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 05:09.55 | gcb77 | blindcoder: you around? |
| 05:11.20 | *** join/#openmoko dkirker (n=dkirker@c-24-6-210-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 05:12.02 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 05:13.15 | CM | gcb77: On his way to work |
| 05:14.12 | gcb77 | I tried the directions he put in the Makefile to get an app |
| 05:14.16 | gcb77 | worked great |
| 05:14.26 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-171-133.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 05:14.27 | CM | Ah, sweet. |
| 05:14.56 | gcb77 | I wonder if you really need to have a URL, or if you can use file:// |
| 05:14.58 | CM | gcb77: Did you update any directions or add something to the wiki or was it perfect already? ;) |
| 05:15.16 | CM | Try and see |
| 05:15.43 | xkr47 | Gevalia ?-) |
| 05:15.47 | CM | xkr47: :D |
| 05:15.54 | CM | Hehe |
| 05:16.22 | gcb77 | instructions worked really good, just got to be patient and follow them |
| 05:21.00 | *** join/#openmoko _law_ (n=law@mail.stiftadmont.at) |
| 05:22.35 | sagaci1 | /! |
| 05:22.39 | sagaci1 | hmm... |
| 05:23.57 | gcb77 | very true... for a while I was scared M$ or Apple nuked them |
| 05:29.46 | *** join/#openmoko ozzloy (n=ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy) |
| 05:34.00 | Agrajag- | people here might be interested in this http://wiki.virtualcogs.com/tiki-view_blog.php?blogId=1 |
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| 05:40.07 | root__ | will I be able to switch between neo and my wired speakerphone by switching a button on my speakerphone while riding my motorcycle?1?!?! why?! |
| 05:40.52 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 06:05.03 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Neo1973:_GTA01Bv4_versus_GTA02_comparison]] [[Talk:Neo1973:_GTA01Bv4_versus_GTA02_comparison]] [[Modular_phone]] [[FAQ]] [[Developer_preview]] [[Direct.openmoko.com_order_process]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Neo1973_Phase_1]] [[MokoMakefile]] and other changes |
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| 07:06.24 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: Openmoko ads now on youtube |
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| 07:07.15 | bkruse_home | seen it |
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| 07:10.24 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: Why iPhone using AJAX was genius |
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| 07:13.53 | TRIsoft | morning |
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| 07:15.25 | zipola | Am I the only one who is a bit sceptical with using copyrighted material on those ads? |
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| 07:17.46 | ninHer | hi all |
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| 07:31.38 | CM | http://gburt.blogspot.com/2007/07/openmoko-neo1973-and-iphone.html |
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| 07:35.27 | blindcoder | gcb77: yeah |
| 07:38.44 | spikebike | CM cool |
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| 07:38.51 | spikebike | hard to judge them based on spec |
| 07:39.04 | spikebike | I've a hard time figuring on how useful the 2 screens will be |
| 07:39.13 | spikebike | i.e. is double the dpi a waste? |
| 07:39.19 | *** join/#openmoko BenC (i=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins) |
| 07:39.40 | CM | spikebike: No, don't think it's a waste |
| 07:40.05 | CM | Let's use all the pixels we can to make this look awesome :D |
| 07:40.18 | spikebike | sure |
| 07:40.25 | CM | And when the dpi is so high, no AA is needed |
| 07:40.27 | spikebike | most of my displays are 100 dpi |
| 07:40.37 | spikebike | and the iphone is 140 ish |
| 07:40.45 | spikebike | and the open moko is 280 ish |
| 07:40.55 | CM | Yes, 283 |
| 07:41.09 | CM | I've seen some study on resolution somewhere.. |
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| 07:44.32 | spikebike | i.e. which is more useful for browsing |
| 07:44.37 | spikebike | 3.5" screen with 140 dpi? |
| 07:44.40 | spikebike | or 2.8 with 280? |
| 07:44.56 | CM | That might depend on how good your eyesight is.. |
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| 07:45.23 | spikebike | true |
| 07:45.26 | spikebike | and software |
| 07:45.54 | CM | Yes. My grandma would never be able to read on a 2.8" |
| 07:45.57 | spikebike | I love my 800x480 nokia 770 screen |
| 07:46.13 | CM | How big is that one? |
| 07:47.10 | Slaytani1 | maybe a stupid question.. Does anyone of you think (like me) that it would have been better to have a neo1973 stylus that can be put within the phone, as with some palm devices? The stylus is longer than the phone... |
| 07:47.41 | CM | Slaytani1: I'd defintely prefer that too |
| 07:47.52 | Psi | Slaytani1, yep |
| 07:47.56 | CM | Like the Qtec ones have |
| 07:48.06 | cb22 | Slaytani1, definitely |
| 07:48.18 | Psi | but its the first openmoko device, cant expect everything to be perfect |
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| 07:49.12 | spikebike | 800x480 4.13 inch |
| 07:49.25 | spikebike | is a stylus necessary? |
| 07:49.26 | blindcoder | Slaytani1: probably what everyone else thinks, too |
| 07:49.29 | Slaytani1 | yes.. you have far more precision with the stylus than with your fingers, so it is something that I'd like to have always with me, when using the neo1973.. maybe I will go around with the Advanced box to carry all the phone's stuff :D |
| 07:49.29 | spikebike | how about a finger? |
| 07:49.47 | Psi | spikebike, some apps use one, some the other |
| 07:49.53 | spikebike | ah |
| 07:49.55 | CM | I hope the screen is fairly scratch resistant |
| 07:50.00 | Psi | but since we make the apps, we can do whatever we want :) |
| 07:50.09 | spikebike | I'd prolly just drop one in my pocket and one in my fanny pack |
| 07:50.29 | Slaytani1 | I can't wait 'till October :) |
| 07:50.46 | Psi | i wouldnt hold your breath about it being out then |
| 07:50.50 | spikebike | here's hoping it is oct |
| 07:51.00 | Psi | yep, we can hope |
| 07:51.01 | jeddy3 | you have precision with a finger also, problem is you obscure half of screen with it =) |
| 07:51.11 | Slaytani1 | (in the meanwhile, I'll try to build openmoko-devel-image O_o... it still fails o_O) |
| 07:51.26 | spikebike | I've seen tiny bluetooth keyboards... TINY |
| 07:51.35 | spikebike | i.e. size of a treo 650 keyboard or smaller |
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| 07:52.50 | blindcoder | oct, dec, always hard to keep those two apart ;) |
| 07:52.52 | CM | Yes, there's credid-card sized ones |
| 07:53.02 | spikebike | so someone was saying the video accelerator is propietary |
| 07:53.11 | spikebike | and programming docs are nda bound. |
| 07:53.16 | CM | Hmm.. |
| 07:53.18 | spikebike | (for the gta02) |
| 07:53.30 | CM | What I've heard is that the drivers are not complete yet |
| 07:53.39 | CM | But that they will be open source |
| 07:53.51 | spikebike | right, but only FIC can work on em |
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| 07:54.15 | spikebike | (if what I heard is correct) |
| 07:54.22 | *** part/#openmoko Slaytani1 (n=gianni@brenta.dit.unitn.it) |
| 07:54.32 | spikebike | seems kinda strange |
| 07:54.44 | spikebike | although I'll have to review the specs |
| 07:54.52 | CM | mickeyl: What's the status of the graphics drivers for GTA02? All docs under NDA? |
| 07:54.54 | spikebike | I thought video access was already in most embedded gpus |
| 07:55.22 | spikebike | the chip however did sound pretty slick, mpeg, 2d, and 3d |
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| 07:56.05 | spikebike | just scary that FIC might leave out something major and the community can't help |
| 07:56.20 | CM | I'm sure they'll do all the cyan |
| 07:56.21 | CM | can |
| 07:56.32 | spikebike | after all what is the business case for 3d on a relatively low volume phone |
| 07:56.44 | CM | And they did look around for a long time before they got the hands on this chip |
| 07:57.45 | CM | spikebike: Is there a big difference having the 770 instead of 800? |
| 07:58.33 | CM | I mean in regards to updates and such. |
| 07:58.33 | spikebike | depends, what do you want to do? |
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| 07:58.33 | spikebike | oh, minimal |
| 07:58.33 | CM | Ok, nice |
| 07:58.33 | spikebike | IT2007 is available for the 770 for instance |
| 07:58.34 | CM | I know it's slower and less memory and so, just wondered if they dropped all interest in it |
| 07:58.36 | spikebike | apps commonly come out for both at the same time |
| 07:58.40 | CM | :) |
| 07:58.42 | spikebike | nah it's doubled or so |
| 07:58.47 | spikebike | 770's just taking off |
| 07:59.04 | CM | I'm guessing it's not going to be like that for GTA01 since it's really a dev-device |
| 07:59.15 | spikebike | $129 they are flying off the shelves |
| 07:59.17 | CM | 770 was for consumers from the start |
| 07:59.48 | spikebike | not to mention it has better power management, nicer to use, and more durable |
| 08:00.25 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@X17e7.x.pppool.de) |
| 08:00.26 | spikebike | I wish they brought out a 780 |
| 08:00.33 | spikebike | double the ram/flash and a faster cpu |
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| 08:00.38 | spikebike | and then leave everything else the same |
| 08:04.22 | *** join/#openmoko n0on3 (n=n0on3@81-208-83-247.fastres.net) |
| 08:04.55 | taneli | CM: N800 screen goes really scratchy if you use stylus |
| 08:05.03 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[OpenMoko:Community_Portal]] [[Main_Page/de]] [[Talk:P1_Owners]] [[Talk:MokoMakefile]] [[Talk:Neo1973:_GTA01Bv4_versus_GTA02_comparison]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/ru]] [[Group_Order]] [[Introduction/ru]] |
| 08:05.11 | CM | taneli: Ouch, that sucks. Hope the Neo is better |
| 08:05.12 | taneli | 770 not so |
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| 08:07.11 | CM | Can't buy a 770 in Sweden, and the N800 is more than $500 |
| 08:07.52 | spikebike | yeah the n800 is $400 here |
| 08:07.52 | *** join/#openmoko rob__w (n=bob@Mb01a.m.pppool.de) |
| 08:07.52 | spikebike | if it was $200 it would be tempting (vs a $129 nokia 770) |
| 08:07.52 | spikebike | maybe get a 800 for home use and a 770 for use on the road |
| 08:07.58 | spikebike | but at $400.. it's just not worth it |
| 08:08.22 | spikebike | same screen, longer battery life, same OS, more durable, etc. |
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| 08:17.02 | CorsaiR | hello |
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| 08:17.56 | CorsaiR | Can I ask some questions? |
| 08:17.56 | aloril | CorsaiR: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 08:18.18 | CorsaiR | heh |
| 08:19.05 | CorsaiR | okay |
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| 08:28.06 | bedboi | hi guys |
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| 08:33.14 | \u72ac | hello all |
| 08:33.14 | Leftmost | Hullo. |
| 08:33.40 | \u72ac | I have a build failure: http://www.pastebin.ca/617474 |
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| 08:43.51 | \u72ac | anyone else seen this? |
| 08:43.51 | aloril | \u72ac: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
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| 08:53.48 | CM | \u72ac: I've heard others having that problem, but I don't remember what the solution was |
| 08:59.01 | blindcoder | meh, debugging a segfault without debugging symbols is hard :( |
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| 09:09.48 | mil_ | hi all |
| 09:10.24 | *** part/#openmoko Toba (n=eastein@pysoy/developer/EricStein) |
| 09:15.05 | SpeedEvil | CM: The drivers aren't under NDA. The chipset docs - over the 2 page info sheet - are under NDA. |
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| 09:16.33 | SpeedEvil | CM: There is hope that for P3, if volume is large enough for P2 that they may be able to convince smedia to provide docs and possibly docs for the more advanced version with a little DSP |
| 09:17.01 | SpeedEvil | (From mick eyl) |
| 09:21.56 | cb22 | SpeedEvil, but if the docs are under a NDA, and a driver is written from them would the resulting driver have to be closed-source? |
| 09:22.30 | mjr | generally, no |
| 09:22.34 | mjr | yes, that's silly |
| 09:22.40 | mjr | that's the hw manufacturers for you |
| 09:22.57 | codyl|sleep | goes to show just old school those folks really are |
| 09:26.13 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_1aptop (n=ewanm89@host86-152-200-188.range86-152.btcentralplus.com) |
| 09:26.41 | buz | i dont think i will ever understand why chip docs are NDAed |
| 09:27.53 | mjr | look at the pointy hair |
| 09:28.35 | buz | but there's tons of stuff like that going on |
| 09:29.10 | buz | for a uni paper, a friend of mine had to analyze risk assessment surveys of banks. they wouldnt give them to him, but hand them to anyone who walks in their doors |
| 09:29.40 | *** join/#openmoko ruoso (n=ruoso@static-b5-252-25.telepac.pt) |
| 09:30.00 | buz | so obviously he scheduled an advisory talk with all of them, costing them 1000s of eur just to get the stupid surveys |
| 09:30.40 | mjr | you though PHBs only existed in tech companies? |
| 09:31.03 | madwoota | pointy headed bastards ? :) |
| 09:31.29 | cibomahto | I have a question about bugzilla etiquette: if I upload a new patch that supercedes and earlier one that I posted, should i remove the original? |
| 09:31.32 | mjr | bosses, but whichever |
| 09:32.17 | madwoota | oh, dilbert |
| 09:32.20 | madwoota | heh |
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| 09:37.10 | Stephmw | good morning |
| 09:37.12 | cesarb | cibomahto: you can mark the old patch as obsolete AFAIK |
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| 09:38.36 | andylockran | morning all |
| 09:38.39 | andylockran | how are we? |
| 09:38.48 | *** join/#openmoko freskog_work (n=fredriks@hst3.eget.fi) |
| 09:39.38 | cibomahto | cesarb: thanks! that works well. and, goodnight |
| 09:39.41 | *** part/#openmoko cibomahto (n=metsmatt@ip215.coronado-crossing.phx.ygnition.net) |
| 09:39.57 | *** part/#openmoko peanutb (n=paulb@phns1.gotdns.com) |
| 09:43.34 | buz | mjr: actually, i expect MORE of them in banks |
| 09:43.38 | ewanm89_1aptop | Um, anyone know how to stop this: http://rafb.net/p/rbBjN952.html |
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| 09:58.58 | SpeedEvil | Just corrected - upwards - the price of a modular phone. |
| 09:59.10 | buz | ? |
| 09:59.20 | SpeedEvil | I wish it was possible to do it cheaper. |
| 09:59.38 | buz | got pricing for the gumstix phones? |
| 09:59.46 | *** join/#openmoko tom_ (i=tom@ares.opintanner.fi) |
| 10:00.05 | SpeedEvil | No, I see no reason for it to be less than gumstix - but there were lots of missing bits. |
| 10:00.08 | SpeedEvil | err |
| 10:00.13 | SpeedEvil | less than sparkfun - $150 |
| 10:00.17 | tom_ | hi, could anyone help me with setting up openmoko to run on desktop? It doesn't seem to be loading the openMoko theme icons. |
| 10:00.28 | SpeedEvil | The case, battery, buttons, ... |
| 10:01.56 | *** join/#openmoko tom_ (i=tom@ares.opintanner.fi) |
| 10:07.27 | andylockran | tom _ keep getting failures on freetype.. |
| 10:09.12 | tom_ | arrgh, what is wrong with my irssi.. can't seem to be able to read anything said in here |
| 10:10.13 | SpeedEvil | Can you read this? |
| 10:10.17 | SpeedEvil | Oh - prolly not. |
| 10:13.22 | *** join/#openmoko woglinde (n=heinold@leningrad.mi.fu-berlin.de) |
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| 10:14.27 | slytherin | Is anyone actually using any bluetooth functionality on Neo1973? |
| 10:14.56 | woglinde | *g* hm |
| 10:15.07 | *** join/#openmoko gcb77_ (n=gcb77@c-24-16-154-132.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 10:15.22 | woglinde | someone told me he used his sony kxx as keyboard over bt |
| 10:15.39 | *** join/#openmoko jpcass (n=chatzill@johnkerry.plus.com) |
| 10:16.22 | *** join/#openmoko _diego_ (n=diego@host-84-223-114-187.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) |
| 10:16.40 | slytherin | woglinde: I know that thing. I am specifically looking for how bluetooth works in Neo. |
| 10:16.58 | SpeedEvil | As bluetooth works in linux. |
| 10:17.02 | woglinde | yeah |
| 10:17.03 | *** join/#openmoko christoph (n=christop@M5d1c.m.pppool.de) |
| 10:17.05 | woglinde | bluez |
| 10:17.17 | woglinde | kernelmodules and userspace programms |
| 10:17.27 | slytherin | SpeedEvil: Is the pin agent included? I mean bluez-gnome? |
| 10:17.37 | slytherin | woglinde: ^^ |
| 10:17.47 | SpeedEvil | Bluez is the bluetooth bit |
| 10:17.59 | SpeedEvil | The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. |
| 10:18.10 | SpeedEvil | Various stuff may not work. |
| 10:18.32 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 10:18.54 | slytherin | SpeedEvil: Ok. That is what I wanted to know. So this means the pairing is not actually possible as there is no program to handle device discovery & pairing. |
| 10:19.15 | SpeedEvil | Dialing is barely possible. |
| 10:19.26 | SpeedEvil | You can do anything you want command-line. |
| 10:19.27 | slytherin | SpeedEvil: :-) |
| 10:19.37 | SpeedEvil | Or install any suitable X config program |
| 10:19.48 | SpeedEvil | GTK stuff that is. |
| 10:19.57 | *** join/#openmoko koen|stirling (n=koen@62-50-199-121.client.stsn.net) |
| 10:20.52 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_laptop (n=ewanm89@host86-152-200-188.range86-152.btcentralplus.com) |
| 10:21.19 | SpeedEvil | You certainly don't want to install gnome. |
| 10:21.20 | slytherin | SpeedEvil: Ok. One more question. What is approach of developing an application if I don't own hardware. Will it possible to release binaries (and not only source) without hardware? |
| 10:21.29 | SpeedEvil | Sure. |
| 10:21.48 | SpeedEvil | Just get the toolchain as mentioned on the wiki. |
| 10:21.52 | SpeedEvil | Test it in the emulator. |
| 10:22.01 | SpeedEvil | Profit! |
| 10:22.22 | SpeedEvil | Of course, people may then be spurred to implement whatever you've done as free software. |
| 10:22.26 | *** join/#openmoko florian (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69) |
| 10:22.41 | SpeedEvil | You may find hardware of use for testing. |
| 10:22.57 | SpeedEvil | If only becasue you prolly don't have a 280DPI touchscreen |
| 10:23.06 | SpeedEvil | what sort of software are youthinking of? |
| 10:23.10 | slytherin | SpeedEvil: I will be doing it as Freeware. I wondered how to provide the packages. Also right now I don't have enough money to buy hardware. |
| 10:23.18 | SpeedEvil | Ah. |
| 10:23.40 | ewanm89_laptop | slytherin: Why not release it opensource? |
| 10:23.56 | *** join/#openmoko Tyrael (n=tyrael@213-140-6-114.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 10:24.32 | slytherin | ewanm89_laptop: Ok. I meant open source by Freeware. Otherwise I would have said freeware. :-) |
| 10:24.37 | Tyrael | Hi, someone received the "Payment received email"? |
| 10:25.10 | SpeedEvil | Not and said so. |
| 10:26.01 | ewanm89_laptop | slytherin: ipkg is the default package management system. |
| 10:26.39 | slytherin | SpeedEvil: I explained the concept here yesterday. I want to make a bluetooth remote control using HID profile of bluetooth. Of course there are many things I want to explore. If my app is good enough then I may get people with real hardware as testers. :-) |
| 10:26.53 | slytherin | ewanm89_laptop: hmm. I need to learn lot. :-) |
| 10:27.18 | *** part/#openmoko mafeu (i=3ece5d43@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-2d6984b267efca92) |
| 10:27.33 | ewanm89_laptop | slytherin: lol, bitbake compiles to this by default (It's too easy). |
| 10:28.02 | SpeedEvil | Ah. Many people have had that thought. |
| 10:28.15 | SpeedEvil | 'wiimote' is a common thought for P2 |
| 10:28.25 | *** join/#openmoko thomasg_gpm (n=thomasg@p57AFCA8B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:28.31 | ewanm89_laptop | Compared to .deb and .rpm it is. |
| 10:28.55 | ewanm89_laptop | Any one know what to do about this: http://rafb.net/p/rbBjN952.html |
| 10:29.10 | ewanm89_laptop | s/Any /Any/ |
| 10:29.23 | slytherin | SpeedEvil: Do you know any one already working on that? I mean other than those guys creating mythtv remote? My idea is a rip off of a similar app found on sony ericsson phones. |
| 10:29.30 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 10:30.11 | SpeedEvil | Wacky. I'd almost expect this on a chinglish site. |
| 10:30.13 | SpeedEvil | Siemens. |
| 10:30.24 | SpeedEvil | 'The worlds most treasured Tri-band GSM/GPRS modules' |
| 10:31.12 | florian | good morning |
| 10:31.20 | ewanm89_laptop | Morning |
| 10:31.50 | ewanm89_laptop | Um, I'll need to add pam to have full user support? |
| 10:36.03 | woglinde | what you mean with full user support? |
| 10:36.24 | *** join/#openmoko miip (n=miip@p54A57423.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:36.26 | woglinde | you can compile busybox with /etc/shadow support |
| 10:36.55 | ewanm89_laptop | woglinde: But I would still ne libpam for sudo? |
| 10:38.18 | woglinde | oh sudo |
| 10:38.22 | woglinde | hm |
| 10:38.45 | *** join/#openmoko Moo^^ (n=moo@oul110-gw4.netplaza.fi) |
| 10:38.52 | woglinde | hm google says busybox has sudo support |
| 10:39.19 | woglinde | args no |
| 10:39.22 | woglinde | sorry |
| 10:39.23 | freskog_work | Hi y'all! |
| 10:39.43 | freskog_work | has anyone managed to build with mokomakefile on ubuntu gutsy? |
| 10:39.58 | ewanm89_laptop | freskog_work: What's the problem? |
| 10:40.21 | woglinde | but sudo doesnt need pam |
| 10:40.32 | woglinde | if I read the buildroot config right |
| 10:40.35 | ewanm89_laptop | woglinde: So I found in sudo docs. |
| 10:40.36 | woglinde | for sudo |
| 10:40.48 | freskog_work | ewanm89_laptop: seems to fail everytime at coreutils-native |
| 10:41.00 | ewanm89_laptop | freskog_work: Error? |
| 10:41.12 | freskog_work | seems like the field futimens gets defined twice |
| 10:41.24 | freskog_work | (can't paste the error, at work right now :) |
| 10:43.26 | freskog_work | ewanm89_laptop: could this be the bug that people had when trying to build with a kernel > 2.6.20 ? |
| 10:44.04 | ewanm89_laptop | That's the page.h bug (I've had it). |
| 10:44.16 | ewanm89_laptop | It's with perl-native. |
| 10:44.40 | freskog_work | ewanm89_laptop: How did you fix it? |
| 10:45.03 | ewanm89_laptop | I made a soft link of the header file. |
| 10:45.22 | freskog_work | ewanm89_laptop: from where to where? |
| 10:46.01 | *** join/#openmoko Mark__T (i=86630288@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-1a5ee95124ae063f) |
| 10:46.16 | ewanm89_laptop | freskog_work: Kernel source to /usr/include/asm/ |
| 10:46.40 | freskog_work | the entire directory ? |
| 10:47.19 | ewanm89_laptop | freskog_work: No, page.h |
| 10:47.29 | freskog_work | ok. |
| 10:47.37 | freskog_work | i'll try it when I get back home. |
| 10:47.41 | freskog_work | thanks for the tip! |
| 10:48.08 | *** part/#openmoko \u72ac (n=dog@lon-ns.vibrantmedia.com) |
| 10:48.25 | *** join/#openmoko xl0 (i=user@80.253.205.252) |
| 10:49.00 | slytherin | Is it possible to run the dev environment on Windows? |
| 10:49.43 | SpeedEvil | No |
| 10:49.52 | SpeedEvil | Well - in theory. |
| 10:50.00 | zecke | Yes, start an X server, use Gtk, and cygwin |
| 10:50.07 | mjr | you can always port stuff :] |
| 10:50.09 | SpeedEvil | You'd need to do lots of 'minor' porting |
| 10:50.37 | slytherin | SpeedEvil: The difference between theory and practical is more in practical than in theory. :-) |
| 10:56.10 | aloril | oh, LaF0rge was here, was too slow in catching logs .. |
| 10:56.11 | *** join/#openmoko denis^da (n=denis@p54929F4F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 11:02.31 | ewanm89_laptop | slytherin: It would be easier to install a distro in a VM. |
| 11:03.48 | SpeedEvil | The GSM antenna is at the bottom in use? |
| 11:03.55 | *** join/#openmoko saaib (i=4b37b1d8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-6a7fe78db9f96d65) |
| 11:04.20 | *** join/#openmoko Cyphi^ (n=cyphi@a91-153-112-221.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 11:04.30 | SpeedEvil | Just working out the comment on the deletion of someone referring to the fake 'cook an egg with two phones' thing. |
| 11:04.55 | slytherin | ewanm89_laptop: Will wait for my own PC to power up again. :-0 |
| 11:05.40 | tuukkah | ewanm89_laptop, now could you create a "super" neo in the emulator and do the directly on it ?-) |
| 11:05.54 | tuukkah | the development, that is |
| 11:06.14 | ewanm89_laptop | does bitbake search through openmoko tree then openemmbedded when looking for a RDEPENDS_...? |
| 11:06.41 | ewanm89_laptop | tuukkah: Um, I'm having trouble doing something similar here. |
| 11:07.08 | ewanm89_laptop | tuxhacker |
| 11:08.27 | tuukkah | what's that? |
| 11:08.52 | ewanm89_laptop | tuukkah: Bitbake files? |
| 11:09.34 | tuukkah | tuxhacker? |
| 11:10.18 | ewanm89_laptop | Sorry was trying to jion that channel and missed out th j after the / |
| 11:10.25 | ewanm89_laptop | s/io/oi/ |
| 11:10.48 | tuukkah | oh =) |
| 11:11.44 | ewanm89_laptop | Anyone have any idea on the way bitbake handles finding the specified RDEPENDS_ ? |
| 11:21.27 | *** join/#openmoko Cyphi^ (n=cyphi@a91-153-112-221.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 11:22.46 | *** join/#openmoko Cyphi^ (n=cyphi@a91-153-112-221.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
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| 11:33.32 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. |
| 11:33.41 | SpeedEvil | Actual orderable UMTS/HDSPA modules. |
| 11:33.51 | SpeedEvil | http://www.jandrew-elec.com/acatalog/Siemens_GSM_GPRS_EDGE_Modules.html |
| 11:33.52 | *** join/#openmoko nosyjoe (n=philipp@p5B0D682E.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:34.47 | *** join/#openmoko davi (n=davi@80.30.83.239) |
| 11:35.21 | SpeedEvil | Not cheap though. |
| 11:35.23 | SpeedEvil | HC25 Quad Band Module offering Quad Band GSM/GPRS/EDGE and Tri-band UMTS/HSDPA functionality. |
| 11:35.30 | SpeedEvil | 200e |
| 11:37.18 | mjr | oo |
| 11:37.34 | mjr | I'll happily shell out 200e on top of neo price for such-equipped phone ;) |
| 11:37.54 | aloril | mixes GTA01B_v04 and GTA02 (and doesn't know about existing "Free your phone!" phase): http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2007/07/an_iphone_for_h.html |
| 11:38.20 | SpeedEvil | mjr: but... |
| 11:38.39 | SpeedEvil | mjr: I don't know if it would actually be connectable to the neo. |
| 11:40.37 | SpeedEvil | Ah - yes. |
| 11:40.44 | SpeedEvil | 'technical specification' |
| 11:40.50 | SpeedEvil | It has a 2 page PDF. |
| 11:40.56 | SpeedEvil | With no details. |
| 11:41.40 | ewanm89_laptop | SpeedEvil: That sounds about right. |
| 11:42.04 | SpeedEvil | Interesting to see if the vendor'd respond to further info requests though. |
| 11:42.24 | SpeedEvil | It _might_ be usable over USB1.1 - it says it can be talked to via AT mode. |
| 11:42.44 | Mark__T | no details... sounds pretty much like siemens :-D |
| 11:44.56 | mjr | SpeedEvil, I actually meant when FIC slap such a module onto a future model, though now that you mention it... *hmm* ;] |
| 11:45.18 | *** join/#openmoko Demitar_ (n=demitar@c-212-031-190-120.cust.broadway.se) |
| 11:46.42 | SpeedEvil | Ah. |
| 11:46.47 | SpeedEvil | Well - it's quite large. |
| 11:46.58 | SpeedEvil | And the price would be considerably less if you order 10K |
| 11:47.08 | SpeedEvil | I'd guess half to 60% |
| 11:47.24 | *** join/#openmoko mdt (n=mdt@littlelun.emdete.de) |
| 11:49.35 | *** join/#openmoko arbitrarystring (n=arbitrar@c-69-136-162-34.hsd1.in.comcast.net) |
| 11:50.21 | aloril | kind of 'happy' problem: "But right now we're just too overwhelmed trying to handle all these orders and server load." http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006734.html |
| 11:52.03 | CM | :D |
| 11:54.19 | slytherin | Does anyone know if there is any plan for porting of minimo? |
| 11:55.51 | CM | slytherin: It wasn't from the start, and it was badly maintained, but apperently there's some new life in it now. |
| 11:56.05 | CM | I think minimo is availible in oe, but I'm not sure |
| 11:56.14 | CM | No "porting" needed |
| 11:56.22 | slytherin | CM: Glad to hear that. :-) |
| 11:56.32 | CM | The focus is on webkit with gtk |
| 11:56.45 | CM | slytherin: zecke is working on that |
| 11:57.03 | slytherin | CM: Any particular reason why webkit? I mean what about gtkhtml? |
| 11:57.20 | koen|edinburgh | heh |
| 11:57.25 | koen|edinburgh | gtkhtml |
| 11:57.31 | CM | koen|edinburgh: Hehe ;) |
| 11:57.38 | koen|edinburgh | which incompatible incarnation of gtkhtml? |
| 11:57.50 | koen|edinburgh | 1,2, 3, 3.2? |
| 11:57.58 | koen|edinburgh | (they all suck, btw) |
| 11:58.00 | slytherin | koen|edinburgh: I am not very knowledged about it. Just asking |
| 11:58.56 | *** join/#openmoko jeddy3 (n=mattiast@gw.sbg.se) |
| 12:00.59 | ewanm89_laptop | does bitbake search through openmoko tree then openemmbedded when looking for a RDEPENDS_...? Does it search both openmoko and openembedded trees? |
| 12:06.46 | tuukkah | ewanm89_laptop, you should probably experiment since no-one seems to know |
| 12:07.45 | sixfeet | moin ihrz allez |
| 12:09.17 | *** part/#openmoko freskog_work (n=fredriks@hst3.eget.fi) |
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| 12:13.13 | *** join/#openmoko nbd (i=nbd@openwrt/developer/nbd) |
| 12:16.23 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Wish_List]] [[IM_Presence/it]] [[GSM_%26_GPRS_Connection_Status/it]] [[System_Info/it]] [[Code_Memo/it]] [[Web_Browser/it]] [[Unit_Converter/it]] [[Profiles_%28Application%29/it]] [[Terminal/it]] [[OpenMoko/it]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] and other changes |
| 12:16.55 | CM | Quote of the day: *One can not underestimate the "Eat Your Own Dogshit" approach to development.* - Jeroen van der Zijp of www.fox-toolkit.org |
| 12:17.08 | ewanm89_laptop | tuukkah: While I've been asking mokomakefile has been compiling a test. Flashing qemu now. |
| 12:17.29 | XXLT | hi, is it possible to encrypt speech on a neo phone and to decrypt it on the partners neo? |
| 12:17.31 | *** join/#openmoko freskog_work (n=fredriks@hst3.eget.fi) |
| 12:18.07 | drath | XXLT: not over GSM |
| 12:18.09 | CM | XXLT: Don't think so since the data transfer is awfully slow |
| 12:18.20 | XXLT | mmh |
| 12:19.16 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@mne69-9-88-163-116-163.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 12:19.17 | XXLT | but maybe it is possible to "translate" normal speech into a kind of sounds, to transfer them via gsm and to decrypt them on the receivers phone |
| 12:20.37 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AD462.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:20.43 | cb22 | Now that is a nice idea |
| 12:20.55 | cb22 | Encrypted voice traffic |
| 12:21.00 | XXLT | yeah |
| 12:21.08 | XXLT | for sure sender and receiver must have the same key |
| 12:21.15 | CM | I'm thinking it could be difficult |
| 12:21.35 | CM | It's not easy to decrypt when some parts are missing |
| 12:21.51 | cb22 | Not sure how you could implement it though, it is easy to get the voice data through a program and out the other end |
| 12:22.02 | cb22 | the hard bit would be actually encrypting voice traffic |
| 12:22.13 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@c-76-30-222-129.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 12:22.20 | tuukkah | and the signal processing might be too much for the processor |
| 12:22.34 | cb22 | Nah, i doubt it |
| 12:22.39 | cb22 | Atleast not for the GTA02 |
| 12:23.36 | ewanm89_laptop | XXLT: That in theory would be possible, but that sort of modulation would be very processor intensive. |
| 12:23.52 | slytherin | Is there any process by which a project will get included in official distribution? |
| 12:24.18 | cb22 | http://seussbeta.tripod.com/crypt.html |
| 12:24.21 | cb22 | An interesting page |
| 12:24.40 | XXLT | well, i just had the idea :) |
| 12:24.56 | XXLT | i think it depends on how strong the encryption is |
| 12:25.00 | cb22 | Scrambling would be easy |
| 12:25.06 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 12:25.11 | cb22 | Actual encryption.... |
| 12:25.14 | cb22 | Would be hard |
| 12:25.41 | ewanm89_laptop | Then modulating it, how much lag do you want? |
| 12:26.25 | ewanm89_laptop | It has been suggested as possible for voip over wifi. |
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| 12:34.25 | zecke | slytherin: no process yet |
| 12:35.55 | _diego_ | scrambling + gsm + degsm + descrambling? I wonder how it sound at the end ... |
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| 12:40.51 | CM | slytherin: Just make the app so good that they can't resist using it ;) |
| 12:41.17 | slytherin | CM: I hope I will be able to do that in 3 months timeframe. :-) |
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| 13:13.47 | andylockran | has anyone had success with the mokomakefile this week |
| 13:13.54 | *** part/#openmoko ph|ber (n=phiber@8.7.103.195) |
| 13:14.18 | andylockran | it worked for me on sat - but then I had a hd crash - and since then it's been failing all over the shop - first at uboot (which I resolved) and now at freetype |
| 13:14.40 | CM | It worked both yesterday and today for me |
| 13:15.07 | CM | Building the flash image. Native doesn't build on amd64 for me though, and it never has |
| 13:16.38 | thomasg_gpm | CM: you mean gettext-native? |
| 13:17.12 | *** join/#openmoko jsgotangco (n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco) |
| 13:17.18 | CM | thomasg_gpm: And others too. Not sure what it failed on last time I tried |
| 13:17.35 | thomasg_gpm | CM: same problem for mee |
| 13:17.37 | thomasg_gpm | *me |
| 13:18.44 | CM | Some blame gentoo, since native builds work on 32-bit Debian and CentOS |
| 13:18.53 | *** join/#openmoko fabiand (n=fabiand@wlan-client-114.informatik.uni-bremen.de) |
| 13:19.18 | ewanm89_laptop | It's working here on gentoo. |
| 13:19.19 | CM | Don't need the native though, qemu works. And soon I'll have a Neo too! :D |
| 13:19.34 | CM | ewanm89_laptop: To build native 64-bit? |
| 13:19.41 | ewanm89_laptop | But, I'm using qemu. |
| 13:19.47 | CM | I mean native as in arch x86_64 |
| 13:19.59 | ewanm89_laptop | No, I'm not. |
| 13:20.02 | CM | Same here, and that works fine yes. |
| 13:21.29 | mjr | hmm, time to install a moko dev environment I suppose |
| 13:21.53 | mjr | inside my 32-bit chroot, I gather |
| 13:22.26 | *** join/#openmoko tom_ (i=tom@ares.opintanner.fi) |
| 13:22.28 | *** part/#openmoko VladoK (n=vlado@adsl-dyn38.91-127-103.t-com.sk) |
| 13:22.36 | ewanm89_laptop | mjr: Only if you really need the performance boost from psyco. |
| 13:22.55 | ewanm89_laptop | s/./when compiling./ |
| 13:23.26 | tom_ | does anyone else have problems running openmoko on pc? I seem to have problems with icons, I have followed wiki few times now from scratch and each time the icons don't load in chrooted system. |
| 13:23.33 | mjr | I don't; should work on 64-bit Ubuntu, then? |
| 13:25.07 | ewanm89_laptop | mjr: Should do. |
| 13:25.31 | *** join/#openmoko devestate (n=devestat@r02amsdm2.desktop.umr.edu) |
| 13:25.33 | ewanm89_laptop | tom_: The icons in the menus are broken. |
| 13:26.00 | tom_ | ewanm89_laptop: also the icons in main windows buttons? |
| 13:27.31 | ewanm89_laptop | I'll do a couple of screenshots. |
| 13:27.46 | tom_ | Bascly it's gtk warning that no icons in /usr/share/icons are found, not even "hicolor" themes icons. :/ |
| 13:32.26 | *** join/#openmoko nop_ (n=nop@p54A088F5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 13:33.28 | *** join/#openmoko gdiebel (n=gdiebel@adsl-69-217-146-185.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net) |
| 13:34.30 | thomasg_gpm | CM, you're under gentoo amd64? |
| 13:37.47 | *** join/#openmoko woglinde (i=woglinde@e178067122.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 13:38.53 | thomasg_gpm | ewanm89_laptop, and did you get openmoko with the ommakefile working? |
| 13:39.32 | ewanm89_laptop | Is that suppose to be mokomakefile? |
| 13:40.07 | ewanm89_laptop | If so, it's working atm, what's the error? |
| 13:40.49 | thomasg_gpm | at moment gettext-native won't build |
| 13:41.11 | ewanm89_laptop | Exact error message? |
| 13:41.18 | ewanm89_laptop | pastebin? |
| 13:41.45 | thomasg_gpm | mom |
| 13:42.42 | *** join/#openmoko k-s[WORK] (n=gustavo@200.184.118.132) |
| 13:42.50 | *** part/#openmoko slytherin (n=root@203.199.147.101) |
| 13:43.31 | thomasg_gpm | http://phpfi.com/249490 |
| 13:45.19 | *** part/#openmoko freskog_work (n=fredriks@hst3.eget.fi) |
| 13:48.04 | ewanm89_laptop | For those of you around earlier yes bitbake checks openmoko then openembedded tree. |
| 13:49.06 | ewanm89_laptop | thomasg_gpm: What java are you using? |
| 13:49.30 | ewanm89_laptop | s/java/java vm/ |
| 13:50.22 | sixfeet | afk |
| 13:52.10 | thomasg_gpm | 1.6.0 (main) and 1.5.0 (additional) |
| 13:52.48 | *** join/#openmoko nosyjoe (n=philipp@ppp-88-217-10-233.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 13:53.24 | *** join/#openmoko Ryback_ (n=ulisses@200.184.118.132) |
| 13:54.24 | ewanm89_laptop | thomasg_gpm: Do you have ant or simmilar installed |
| 13:55.08 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@p508D82D7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 13:55.37 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@213.155.227.226) |
| 13:55.57 | *** join/#openmoko drath_ (i=vmaster@p5B07DBA9.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:57.14 | *** part/#openmoko jgm (n=jgm@host-87-74-179-156.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 13:57.39 | ewanm89_laptop | thomasg_gpm: It's working here with blackdown. |
| 13:58.47 | thomasg_gpm | hm |
| 13:59.58 | ewanm89_laptop | http://rafb.net/p/kr3twQ19.html |
| 14:00.04 | CM | thomasg_gpm: I'm using Sun JDK 1.6.0.02 |
| 14:01.30 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info) |
| 14:01.30 | *** join/#openmoko jgm (n=jgm@host-87-74-179-156.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 14:02.08 | CM | But I have blackdown installed for java-1 |
| 14:02.44 | *** join/#openmoko lrak (n=kbeldan@def92-4-82-224-196-1.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:02.52 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d5152D19B.access.telenet.be) |
| 14:05.20 | *** join/#openmoko cga (n=cga@213-140-6-101.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 14:06.19 | thomasg_gpm | CM, oops, I made a mistake. I'm using jre-1.6, but still jdk-1.5 |
| 14:06.29 | thomasg_gpm | I'll update to 1.6 |
| 14:08.56 | woglinde | thomas hm yes common error |
| 14:09.20 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 14:09.21 | CM | woglinde: So it works with 1.6 but not 1.5? |
| 14:10.07 | woglinde | cm no mixing jre and sdk up |
| 14:10.17 | woglinde | especially under windows |
| 14:10.18 | CM | Ah, for sure :) |
| 14:10.45 | *** join/#openmoko mhstif (n=user@125.162.53.28) |
| 14:11.16 | *** join/#openmoko mafeu (i=3ece5d43@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-7a933197b77e0c24) |
| 14:11.59 | *** join/#openmoko chreekat (n=b@71-38-72-35.omah.qwest.net) |
| 14:13.27 | mjr | dih dum, mokomakefile working its magic... |
| 14:15.46 | *** part/#openmoko mhstif (n=user@125.162.53.28) |
| 14:16.44 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Minime]] [[IPhone]] [[BuggyOrders]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware]] [[IPhone_%28GTA01%29]] [[Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review]] [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Talk:Modular_phone]] [[Feed_Reader]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU/it]] [[Talk:Main_Page]] [[Group_Order]] and other changes |
| 14:19.16 | *** join/#openmoko raster (n=raster@p2141-ipbf2304marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) |
| 14:19.21 | thomasg_gpm | woglinde, well, I'm definately NOT under windows, just to clarify this :) |
| 14:22.29 | *** join/#openmoko luke-jr|work (n=luke-jr@adsl-76-194-177-181.dsl.ksc2mo.sbcglobal.net) |
| 14:23.02 | *** part/#openmoko mafeu (i=3ece5d43@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-7a933197b77e0c24) |
| 14:23.42 | *** join/#openmoko dtx (n=dtx@cdf-imaging.com) |
| 14:24.08 | dtx | howdy |
| 14:24.41 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 14:24.55 | dtx | I'm trying to make qemu from the moko makefile, but it says I need gcc 3 |
| 14:25.10 | dtx | But I don't particularly want to install gcc 3 just for this, is it "safe" to use 4? |
| 14:25.56 | *** join/#openmoko switch3r (n=switch3r@128.8.37.122) |
| 14:26.00 | *** join/#openmoko daurnimator (i=daurn@unaffiliated/daurnimator) |
| 14:26.02 | daurnimator | hi all |
| 14:26.44 | dtx | howdy |
| 14:28.28 | woglinde | dtx no |
| 14:28.30 | andylockran | any progress on the openmoko vmware image or binary? |
| 14:28.51 | daurnimator | i would love to dev for open moko... |
| 14:29.01 | daurnimator | but does the price seem steep to anyone? |
| 14:29.16 | mjr | no |
| 14:29.21 | Ycros | nope |
| 14:29.26 | mjr | well, except for the shipping part |
| 14:29.43 | Ycros | yeah, shipping is a bit ridiculous |
| 14:29.59 | daurnimator | ouch... haven't looked at that yet |
| 14:30.04 | daurnimator | Ycros: you have one? |
| 14:30.15 | Ycros | I've ordered one |
| 14:30.22 | mjr | if you're in US, you have sane shipping price, otherwise not... |
| 14:30.42 | mjr | but what the hell |
| 14:30.51 | daurnimator | Ycros: how much all up? |
| 14:31.07 | mjr | also, if you don't want to shell out for the phone, openmoko is even free as in beer :þ |
| 14:31.10 | bedboi | 80 bucks |
| 14:31.21 | *** join/#openmoko ossman (n=drzeus@85.8.24.16.se.wasadata.net) |
| 14:31.31 | Ycros | yeah, 80 USD |
| 14:31.32 | bedboi | shipping price |
| 14:31.46 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@132.213.238.4) |
| 14:31.50 | daurnimator | all up? ;) - i assume thats shipping |
| 14:31.55 | daurnimator | thats..... alot |
| 14:31.56 | Ycros | yes, that's shipping |
| 14:32.00 | Ycros | you can add, right? ;) |
| 14:32.43 | daurnimator | I don't want/can't to pay $450 :( |
| 14:33.04 | SpeedEvil | Look at [[Group Order]] on the wiki |
| 14:33.22 | SpeedEvil | Post that you are organising one for your country if none. |
| 14:33.30 | Ycros | daurnimator, oh, sure, if you want the advanced one |
| 14:33.33 | Ycros | I'm getting the base |
| 14:33.52 | SpeedEvil | If you don't know why you need the advanced one, you don't need it. |
| 14:33.56 | bedboi | i'll be in the states 'till Oct 6th, I guess I'll place an order there. |
| 14:34.35 | daurnimator | Ycros: thats AU$450 |
| 14:34.41 | Ycros | SpeedEvil, damn right, most people won't need it |
| 14:34.53 | daurnimator | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:35.02 | Ycros | daurnimator, what's 300 + 80 ? |
| 14:35.15 | Ycros | SpeedEvil, but it does come with a nice looking toolbox |
| 14:35.21 | daurnimator | (US$300 + US$80)/.86 = ~AU$450 |
| 14:35.29 | Ycros | daurnimator, oh, au, ha |
| 14:36.27 | *** join/#openmoko duplex (n=duplex@p57A852C1.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:36.48 | daurnimator | since when do you work in USD |
| 14:37.27 | Ycros | sorry, I just assumed you were talking USD |
| 14:38.13 | daurnimator | anyway... it seems way to expensive |
| 14:38.19 | daurnimator | specially with shipping.... |
| 14:38.36 | daurnimator | eg, my OSD cost joe US$16 to send to me |
| 14:39.09 | mjr | do you actually have some sort of idea of what this kind of devices cost generally? |
| 14:39.15 | mjr | hint: it aint' cheaper |
| 14:39.57 | daurnimator | well, do I compare it to a pda or a mobile? |
| 14:40.08 | dtx | pda+mobile |
| 14:40.11 | Ycros | both |
| 14:40.17 | Ycros | because it is both |
| 14:40.29 | *** join/#openmoko senikk (n=senikk@178.84-48-47.nextgentel.com) |
| 14:40.41 | CM | I'm just happy that they price it in USD, since that's cheap in Swedish kronor |
| 14:40.43 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: "Open Source In Mobile (OSiM)" conference, September, Spain |
| 14:40.55 | CM | ~change 1 USD to SEK |
| 14:40.57 | thomasg_gpm | CM: same for euro :) |
| 14:41.09 | mjr | yeah, dollar is weak overall |
| 14:41.09 | thomasg_gpm | 1 EUR = 1.34 USD |
| 14:41.18 | mjr | as said, it compensates the high shipping nicely |
| 14:41.25 | thomasg_gpm | definately |
| 14:41.54 | thomasg_gpm | and including shipping (for 3 persons) and VAT (19% in germany) the neo will stay at under EUR300 |
| 14:42.12 | dtx | Well, we do have Mr. Cookabonanza in the white house spending like crazy, so no surprises there |
| 14:42.18 | daurnimator | anyway.... is there anyway to bring the cost down? |
| 14:42.31 | Ycros | probably not |
| 14:42.38 | mjr | daurnimator, share shipping costs with others |
| 14:42.39 | thomasg_gpm | and if we have luck, they will not charge VAT for the neos, so it will be about EUR250 (thats damn cheap!) |
| 14:42.49 | daurnimator | student price or something? |
| 14:43.03 | *** join/#openmoko lrak (n=kbeldan@def92-4-82-224-196-1.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:43.07 | thomasg_gpm | erm $300 is damn cheap -.- |
| 14:43.29 | mjr | daurnimator, it's already devel discounted from $350, man |
| 14:43.34 | mjr | don't be ridiculous |
| 14:43.37 | Fatal | I've never seen that the customs miss to get VAT added, unless you try to avoid it by sending as gift etc |
| 14:44.09 | thomasg_gpm | Fatal, the gift thing mostly doesn't work, but the neo is declared as non-working prototype, this could be a chance |
| 14:44.13 | Fatal | (in swe) |
| 14:44.22 | Fatal | thomasg_gpm: interesting, maybe |
| 14:44.39 | phrozen77 | thomasg_gpm, it works from the us to .de |
| 14:44.46 | phrozen77 | did that more than once to know that |
| 14:44.47 | phrozen77 | :> |
| 14:45.03 | Ycros | yeah, it's already damn cheap |
| 14:45.04 | phrozen77 | also declare the value below 20$ |
| 14:45.05 | phrozen77 | =) |
| 14:45.27 | thomasg_gpm | phrozen77, yeah, but when they open (what afaik often happens) the package they'll know :) |
| 14:45.29 | Fatal | ;) |
| 14:45.35 | mjr | daurnimator, one can understand if $300 seems high for a student, but that's not because it's a high price for this item, that's because students can't afford everything they want |
| 14:45.46 | phrozen77 | heh, how would they know that its not broken beyond belief? :P |
| 14:45.54 | thomasg_gpm | we imported some earphones from the states and let the company declare it as gift. didnt work. |
| 14:45.57 | galexande | wow, lxer is a piece of shit |
| 14:46.04 | daurnimator | mjr: true - Most similar products I buy with weird discount stuff |
| 14:46.13 | phrozen77 | thomasg_gpm, might very well have been luck in my cases |
| 14:46.17 | daurnimator | or of course.. good old ebay |
| 14:46.17 | galexande | a rumor rag without by-lines |
| 14:46.25 | thomasg_gpm | phrozen77, guess so |
| 14:46.48 | thomasg_gpm | but so or so, EUR 300 is ok for the neo, and I'm willing to pay this for get one :) |
| 14:46.53 | daurnimator | do open moko have code "bounties" - Ycros: you know what I mean :P |
| 14:46.54 | phrozen77 | absolutely |
| 14:47.17 | phrozen77 | i'll wait for the gta02, though |
| 14:47.27 | galexande | daurn, openmoko.com isn't paying for any so far as we know, but don't let that stop you |
| 14:47.32 | phrozen77 | needs some masochism though :P |
| 14:47.47 | Fatal | what, isn't geekfame enough of a carrot? :) |
| 14:47.49 | galexande | i get a little frustrated with all these "does openmoko have?" questions |
| 14:47.55 | phrozen77 | lol |
| 14:48.02 | galexande | openmoko is soylent green, openmoko is you. if you do it, openmoko has it. |
| 14:48.03 | flingpoo | Why? Isn't the answer, "No!"? |
| 14:48.07 | Fatal | galexande: does openmoko have more 'does openmoko have' questions? |
| 14:48.09 | daurnimator | who is funding or the head of this thing? |
| 14:48.12 | phrozen77 | 42! |
| 14:48.41 | mjr | daurnimator, FIC is footing the development bills |
| 14:50.14 | dtx | Does openmoko have a soul? |
| 14:50.24 | daurnimator | also, how long is estimated until we have a workable UI for day to day use? |
| 14:50.36 | galexande | daurn, how long will it take you to write one? |
| 14:50.44 | daurnimator | (ie, you can make calls, send sms, have a stable phone book, battery managament etc) |
| 14:50.52 | phrozen77 | daurnimator, read the wiki |
| 14:50.59 | daurnimator | galexande: I'd have to get a good look at the device first :P |
| 14:51.07 | phrozen77 | massmarketing in oct with the gta02 |
| 14:51.16 | phrozen77 | then it'll be ready for mom dad and the dog |
| 14:51.26 | galexande | i estimate it will take about a month and a half for me to develop enough UI for me to use the phone daily |
| 14:51.33 | Ycros | I reckon it'll take longer than that |
| 14:51.40 | galexande | assuming the background libs are strong enough |
| 14:52.27 | *** join/#openmoko jpcass (n=chatzill@johnkerry.plus.com) |
| 14:52.32 | *** join/#openmoko seemant (n=trinity@gentoo/developer/seemant) |
| 14:52.56 | daurnimator | also, is the hardware expected to change (much?) until public release - or is hardware finalised? |
| 14:53.10 | Ycros | daurnimator, argh, answers are all up there on the wiki and stuff |
| 14:53.15 | galexande | daurn, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-June/000013.html |
| 14:53.20 | Fatal | daurnimator: that's also on the wiki :) |
| 14:53.32 | phrozen77 | rtfw! |
| 14:53.34 | daurnimator | I'm reading the wiki and I'm not finding much :S |
| 14:53.37 | andylockran | hehe - I'm impressed with the patience most people have |
| 14:53.43 | phrozen77 | open your eyes then :P |
| 14:53.44 | phrozen77 | also |
| 14:53.49 | andylockran | daurnimator: you're obviously looking in the wrong places.. |
| 14:53.50 | phrozen77 | reading -> understanding |
| 14:53.54 | andylockran | yeah.. everything is up there |
| 14:53.55 | phrozen77 | makes all the difference |
| 14:54.00 | galexande | getting slashdotted is a hard line to toe |
| 14:54.07 | phrozen77 | did they? |
| 14:54.10 | *** join/#openmoko baze_ (n=baze@p57A65A30.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:54.18 | andylockran | patience too - you have til october to find your answers :p |
| 14:54.24 | SpeedEvil | daurnimator: P2 == release platform. See [[Neo1973]] |
| 14:54.27 | Fatal | daurnimator: the frustration is high here, been the same questions over and over for the past week :) |
| 14:54.37 | daurnimator | heh |
| 14:54.41 | andylockran | RTFM is the best advice :) |
| 14:54.53 | phrozen77 | <phrozen77> rtfw! <-- |
| 14:54.54 | seemant | why is laf0rge feeling so aggressive on his new blog post? is there some new roadblock on openmoko development? |
| 14:55.02 | SpeedEvil | Burnout. |
| 14:55.04 | SpeedEvil | Impending. |
| 14:55.06 | daurnimator | and you didn't make an irc bot to resight the FAQ url? |
| 14:55.12 | SpeedEvil | faq? |
| 14:55.13 | daurnimator | what sort of coders are you :P |
| 14:55.13 | aloril | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ |
| 14:55.20 | galexande | seemant, he's a kernel programmer at least partially responsibel for managing a hardware development team |
| 14:55.26 | andylockran | I'm a bad one :) |
| 14:57.19 | daurnimator | ouch! |
| 14:57.27 | daurnimator | GTA02 is $450 :( |
| 14:57.40 | woglinde | fair price |
| 14:57.56 | phrozen77 | meh |
| 14:58.00 | daurnimator | that IS too expensive for me |
| 14:58.06 | phrozen77 | would you quit the whining already? go work some more |
| 14:58.33 | ewon | jesus christ, we're all pro coders here, or are on our way to doing so, and you cannot afford $450? |
| 14:58.45 | seemant | galexande: ah ok |
| 14:58.47 | galexande | well technically speaking, i'm a pro stoner |
| 14:58.53 | phrozen77 | LOL |
| 14:58.53 | ewon | get a job, you god-damned hippy |
| 14:59.06 | woglinde | lol |
| 14:59.15 | galexande | hey i'm not whining, i got the cheap shipping $12.71! |
| 14:59.16 | phrozen77 | galexande, thats my profession too - dont make any money from it, though :P |
| 14:59.36 | daurnimator | ewon: I'm a student - I have a couple of part time jobs doing crap all.... no money for anything |
| 14:59.50 | Moriarty_ | galexande: you have an 01 on the way? |
| 14:59.53 | ewon | daurnimator: summer jobs are for winners. |
| 14:59.54 | galexande | mori, god willing |
| 15:00.18 | ewon | summer was money-time when I was a student |
| 15:00.26 | daurnimator | ewon: its winter now.... and I have 3 exams next week |
| 15:00.39 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@141.80-202-161.nextgentel.com) |
| 15:00.39 | phrozen77 | daurnimator, /quit and learn some -_- |
| 15:00.39 | galexande | daurn, step one: stand on the top of the earth not the bottom :-) |
| 15:00.45 | jgm | If you have lots of time and no money then start writing code and if you're loved enough FIC may send you a phase 2 'phone (not that I'm promising, it's nothing to do with me) |
| 15:00.52 | Moriarty_ | galexande: oh, another silly quibble - no IR port (I'd love to use the moko as a giant universal remote). |
| 15:01.08 | galexande | mori, yeah a lot of people have mentioned it, and it's a really cheap and easy thing to add actually |
| 15:01.10 | ewon | daurnimator: contracting gigs. I made plenty of money as a student, right up to my finals |
| 15:01.21 | galexande | but i don't think fic will do it soon because they don't want to modify the case |
| 15:01.25 | galexande | i bet it would be a possible after-market. |
| 15:01.29 | ewon | mostly doing bitch-work like trying to keep tomcat from exploding boxes into flames |
| 15:01.30 | *** join/#openmoko freskog (n=fredrik@213-204-48-247.bredband.aland.net) |
| 15:01.42 | ewon | galexande: usb IR dongle? |
| 15:01.50 | ewon | or bitbang it from GPIO pins, I suppose |
| 15:01.56 | Moriarty_ | galexande: right. we alreay know they don't want to retool, and I understand that. |
| 15:02.01 | phrozen77 | galexande, what prevents the community from makeing some how-to? |
| 15:02.06 | galexande | yeah, i would use gpio or one of teh uarts in the s3c. |
| 15:02.16 | daurnimator | does the usb host port have enough juice to run without external power? |
| 15:02.17 | *** join/#openmoko mindCrime (n=chatzill@66.83.208.219.nw.nuvox.net) |
| 15:02.19 | galexande | phrozen, nothing, you can put it on the wiki |
| 15:02.25 | phrozen77 | yup |
| 15:02.25 | galexande | daurn, nope |
| 15:02.36 | phrozen77 | hm |
| 15:02.41 | galexande | i'm not modding my gta01, i will love it too much ;) |
| 15:02.46 | galexande | (not good with surface mouunt) |
| 15:02.46 | Moriarty_ | heh |
| 15:02.48 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@X168f.x.pppool.de) |
| 15:02.58 | Moriarty_ | apparently they left some pads open for 'interesting' signals though. |
| 15:02.59 | andylockran | mt gta is going to be kept in mint condition - something to show the grandkids |
| 15:03.19 | galexande | "when i was your age, this things' batteries held a charge!" |
| 15:03.24 | ewon | hah |
| 15:03.44 | Moriarty_ | I wonder if the hardware modders will bodge a 5V power line in there to run the usb... |
| 15:03.47 | daurnimator | how bout to power low power usb devices? - eg, keyboard (only 100mA) |
| 15:04.12 | galexande | mori, the trouble is that so far the whole thing runs on like 1.8-3.7V |
| 15:04.14 | daurnimator | I could imagine typing emails on a largish keyboard on the openmoko... |
| 15:04.24 | galexande | so there's no 5V in it, you'd have to put in a little charge pump or something |
| 15:04.29 | Moriarty_ | yeah. |
| 15:04.49 | galexande | daurn, a lot of keyboards draw basically nothing on the power rails, and they might work (well under 100mA) |
| 15:04.49 | Moriarty_ | however, I would not be surprised if the hardware nuts figure out a way to do it. |
| 15:05.06 | mjr | daurnimator, there is no power period |
| 15:05.08 | galexande | daurn, but the power pins are essentially not-connected in usb host mode. they're input-only |
| 15:05.15 | mjr | bluetooth keyboards are a better idea |
| 15:05.28 | galexande | i know for a fact that there are ps/2 keyboards which still "work" if you cut the power lines |
| 15:05.28 | ewon | so there is 0v going out the rails in host mode? |
| 15:05.37 | *** join/#openmoko Tene (n=tene@poipu/supporter/slacker/tene) |
| 15:05.40 | *** part/#openmoko mdt (n=mdt@littlelun.emdete.de) |
| 15:05.42 | dtx | Does OpenMoko have Bluetooth ;-)? |
| 15:05.47 | galexande | dtx, hells yeah |
| 15:06.04 | dtx | I just wanted to present another "does openmoko have..." |
| 15:06.10 | mjr | the Neo does :þ |
| 15:06.27 | daurnimator | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_Does_it_have_bluetooth.3F |
| 15:06.28 | daurnimator | weeee |
| 15:07.19 | dtx | holy crap qemu builds really fast |
| 15:09.17 | *** join/#openmoko mdt (n=mdt@littlelun.emdete.de) |
| 15:09.29 | *** join/#openmoko SBKch (n=SBKch@088156224081.sta.vectranet.pl) |
| 15:10.07 | ewon | one could hax in a little box with some nimh cells in it to get 5V to the rails, I suspect |
| 15:11.12 | galexande | i think someone wants to put a usb hub chipset in it, with a charge pump for +5V |
| 15:12.04 | dtx | All this openmoko UI stuff like with the dialer is it just using imagemaps and not an actual skin I suppose? |
| 15:14.32 | dtx | I just wonder because when "dialing" it shows a translucent window over the main dialer window |
| 15:15.47 | galexande | "actual skin"? it's using gtk.... |
| 15:15.52 | galexande | i don't know what skinning gtk offers |
| 15:16.28 | dtx | It just seemed really shiny a translucent for gtk |
| 15:16.29 | phrozen77 | mhm |
| 15:16.38 | raster | limited skinning |
| 15:16.39 | raster | ans slow |
| 15:16.39 | dtx | I was wondering if they were using the e libs for the dialer |
| 15:16.41 | raster | and |
| 15:16.46 | *** join/#openmoko bmidgley_ (n=bmidgley@c-24-2-92-215.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:16.57 | phrozen77 | talking about the neo i could run around in circles all day, screaming "zomg the possibilities" |
| 15:17.11 | dtx | How do you exit the contacts program? |
| 15:18.32 | dtx | There aren't many UI clues to these icons |
| 15:18.52 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-180-165.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 15:19.14 | *** part/#openmoko gresh (n=bv1_16@pool06.gris.uni-tuebingen.de) |
| 15:19.43 | *** join/#openmoko dantalizing (n=dantaliz@n128-227-50-179.xlate.ufl.edu) |
| 15:19.50 | galexande | phrozen, you've described my last weekk:) |
| 15:20.03 | phrozen77 | hehe |
| 15:20.22 | phrozen77 | that just freaks me out lol |
| 15:20.29 | phrozen77 | and i have to wait till friggin october |
| 15:20.49 | *** join/#openmoko gabaug (n=gabe@c-67-167-90-105.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 15:22.18 | *** join/#openmoko BenC (i=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins) |
| 15:23.36 | *** join/#openmoko SMC (n=Smash@85-210-177-208.dsl.pipex.com) |
| 15:25.08 | don-o | zomg? |
| 15:25.42 | *** part/#openmoko SMC (n=Smash@85-210-177-208.dsl.pipex.com) |
| 15:26.32 | don-o | the gumstix computer + gsm module is also interesting |
| 15:27.40 | *** join/#openmoko ccmiracles (i=thwyg@220.171.207.249) |
| 15:29.05 | *** join/#openmoko ben_goodger (n=ben@host81-153-25-122.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 15:30.32 | *** join/#openmoko gresh (n=bv1_16@pool06.gris.uni-tuebingen.de) |
| 15:35.07 | *** part/#openmoko ccmiracles (i=thwyg@220.171.207.249) |
| 15:35.51 | dtx | Is Minimo running on this yet? |
| 15:36.11 | *** join/#openmoko _Heathen_ (i=powj@adsl-75-49-19-89.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net) |
| 15:37.43 | dtx | Does OpenMoko not set the clock to UTC? |
| 15:38.27 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@cable-vrk-fe5cdd00-177.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 15:40.18 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-33.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 15:41.20 | keesj | Is there live on mars |
| 15:41.46 | dtx | Yes, a tiny little rover |
| 15:41.51 | dtx | or two |
| 15:41.52 | SpeedEvil | Or two. |
| 15:41.55 | jgm | They're alive? |
| 15:42.04 | SpeedEvil | For various values of alive. |
| 15:42.06 | dtx | They are imbued with human behavior |
| 15:42.21 | SpeedEvil | They almost certainly have some biological contamination on, in suspended animation. |
| 15:42.22 | don-o | not any more, they were crushed by decepticons in Transformers, the movie. |
| 15:42.31 | dtx | That was Beagle |
| 15:42.56 | don-o | dtx: oh :) |
| 15:43.03 | dtx | :-P |
| 15:43.08 | *** join/#openmoko LaF0rge (n=laforge@122-124-81-64.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 15:43.34 | keesj | :p |
| 15:44.47 | phrozen77 | everyone, bow before LaF0rge |
| 15:44.48 | phrozen77 | :P |
| 15:45.59 | aloril | hi LaF0rge |
| 15:46.13 | aloril | how is it going? |
| 15:48.50 | aloril | LaF0rge: you are doing great work, but I hope you get to do more fun work in future and not burn yourself out with boring work |
| 15:50.41 | aloril | personally I'm happy that I have reserved place in order queue, no matter how long it actually takes to arrive ;-) |
| 15:50.47 | dtx | So what's up with the last post on your blog, Laf0rge? |
| 15:50.54 | dtx | :-P |
| 15:51.10 | *** part/#openmoko mdt (n=mdt@littlelun.emdete.de) |
| 15:51.29 | *** join/#openmoko mdt (n=mdt@littlelun.emdete.de) |
| 15:52.48 | aloril | so.. personally: take it easy and don't try to do everything (there is limited amount any person can do no matter who he is) |
| 15:55.16 | aloril | anyway, I'm really appropriate what you have done and as mjr said "wishing you a speedy but decidedly not hurried recovery." |
| 15:55.38 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@rikers.org) |
| 16:00.35 | aloril | LaF0rge: if we ever see each other I will definitely buy you a beer |
| 16:00.36 | Rince | or better: just put in a nice dinner for him somewhere around - without computers, mobiles or anything technical, just some spare time ;) |
| 16:00.36 | *** part/#openmoko gresh (n=bv1_16@pool06.gris.uni-tuebingen.de) |
| 16:00.36 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (i=muciipec@p54950330.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:00.38 | dtx | So anyways is there a way to view web pages using a qemu image? |
| 16:00.38 | *** join/#openmoko jserv2 (n=jserv@linux3.cc.ntu.edu.tw) |
| 16:00.39 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 16:00.40 | dtx | Of course I'm making the assumption that the browser is functional ;-) |
| 16:01.30 | *** join/#openmoko wooKieface (n=benjamin@x1-6-00-03-2f-29-99-b9.k967.webspeed.dk) |
| 16:02.03 | buz | wow alan cox on the mailing list ;) |
| 16:02.15 | ewon | nice |
| 16:02.44 | dtx | So anybody know if its possible? |
| 16:03.04 | woglinde | dtx qemu has networksupport |
| 16:03.15 | buz | right now there is no browser afaik |
| 16:03.17 | woglinde | dtx so it should be clear |
| 16:03.26 | don-o | dtx: good question. |
| 16:03.30 | buz | but it will work once there is one |
| 16:03.43 | don-o | dtx: does netcat count as a browser? :) |
| 16:03.46 | buz | heck even windows update works from qemu hosted windows |
| 16:03.47 | dtx | I clicked on the Logo in the upper left corner then clicked on web |
| 16:03.48 | woglinde | compile lynx w3m minimo konq-embbed |
| 16:04.00 | woglinde | even firefox should work |
| 16:04.00 | dtx | Brought up a browser looking interface with http://www.google.com |
| 16:04.06 | dtx | in the box |
| 16:04.29 | woglinde | or use the webkit port zecke is working on ;) |
| 16:04.53 | *** join/#openmoko apardo (n=apardo@114.145.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es) |
| 16:04.59 | don-o | woglinde: is there a public webpage or source repository for that project? |
| 16:05.05 | Kensan | links is in openembedded. |
| 16:05.32 | dtx | I can already click on the logo in the upper left corner and click on 'Web' and it brings up a browser interface |
| 16:05.32 | woglinde | don-o ask zecke |
| 16:05.48 | dtx | I don't know if it has a rendering engine yet though cuz I don't have any pages to view. |
| 16:06.26 | andylockran | I like the new locations on the wiki.. good job |
| 16:06.36 | andylockran | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_Local_Groups |
| 16:09.04 | don-o | andylockran: woah cool. openmoko user groups |
| 16:09.05 | *** join/#openmoko apardo (n=apardo@114.145.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es) |
| 16:09.34 | woglinde | lol |
| 16:09.39 | woglinde | who put berlin in |
| 16:10.14 | dtx | can you hit escape on this thing? |
| 16:10.16 | *** join/#openmoko heikkit (n=chatzill@c-67-188-122-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 16:10.25 | dtx | otherwise vi is gonna be harder than I though |
| 16:10.26 | dtx | t |
| 16:10.38 | ewon | heh |
| 16:10.43 | ewon | use emacs, as God intended. |
| 16:10.45 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc_ (i=muciipec@p54951D58.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:10.47 | ewon | </flamewar> |
| 16:10.48 | don-o | lol |
| 16:11.02 | dtx | but with emacs you can't nav with hjkl |
| 16:11.13 | dtx | as the real God intended |
| 16:11.14 | dtx | :-P |
| 16:11.29 | don-o | dtx: control-] = esc |
| 16:11.56 | dtx | How can I do control-] |
| 16:11.59 | dtx | ? |
| 16:12.16 | don-o | dtx not sure what device you're using |
| 16:12.43 | dtx | qemu neo |
| 16:13.03 | dtx | and the built in "keyboard" |
| 16:13.23 | don-o | dtx: well stop that and use the 101key keyboard in front of you :) |
| 16:13.44 | dtx | It doesn't appear to work |
| 16:14.09 | don-o | the openmoko logo is disturbingly close to Window's Start button |
| 16:14.41 | don-o | dtx: i just started a terminal app in the emulator. the keyboard doesnt work for me either :( |
| 16:15.05 | don-o | task-switching is pretty sweet. |
| 16:15.32 | don-o | how do you bring up the on-screen keyboard? |
| 16:16.13 | dtx | click on the grey box at the top of the screen |
| 16:16.43 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Birmingham]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_San_Francisco]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Eugene]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Eugene]] [[Java]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Birmingham]] [[MokoMakefile/it]] and other changes |
| 16:17.29 | don-o | dtx: oh. i take it a little keyboard icon or something goes there |
| 16:17.44 | dtx | That's what I assumed |
| 16:17.45 | dtx | :-P |
| 16:19.12 | don-o | yeah this is painful |
| 16:19.13 | tuukkah | and when i click on the right side of the box i get a menu to change between two types of keyboard and character recognition |
| 16:19.50 | dtx | Where? |
| 16:20.01 | don-o | tuukkah: hey yeah. the second keyboard option gives a keyboard with control and esc |
| 16:20.08 | dtx | All I see is 'A' 'a' '1' '&' and some weird symbol thing |
| 16:20.16 | don-o | dtx: rub around the right hand side of the little grey box |
| 16:20.58 | dtx | ok so click on the right side |
| 16:20.59 | dtx | I see |
| 16:21.09 | tuukkah | don-o, and bottom right of the second keyboard is arrow keys |
| 16:21.12 | dtx | oh excellent |
| 16:22.06 | ferric | um are you guys playing with real neos? |
| 16:22.06 | tuukkah | i think someone said the second keyboard is too small to be used on the real neo though |
| 16:22.16 | dtx | yeah |
| 16:22.17 | tuukkah | ferric, emulator |
| 16:22.19 | don-o | ferric: emulator |
| 16:22.23 | dtx | that would probably be the case |
| 16:22.50 | ferric | ah |
| 16:22.59 | dtx | Did it ask about gcc 3 instead of gcc 4? |
| 16:24.09 | hozer | I remember seeing something, but it seemed to work |
| 16:24.11 | dtx | oh man on the second keyboard it can't do a less than sign |
| 16:26.03 | *** join/#openmoko twt (i=twt@nat/google/x-a15724872ddae018) |
| 16:26.26 | gcb77 | For some reason I always have to edit usb-linux.c inside the qemu-neo1973 dir before "make build-qemu" works |
| 16:26.51 | dtx | I just went from a plain install from yesterday and it all worked |
| 16:27.01 | dtx | I just had to install gcc3.4 first |
| 16:27.04 | jpcass | hi trying to run openmoko in Xephyr on my desktop but it cant find fonts - anyone know where I need to copy fonts to on my host system? |
| 16:27.05 | gcb77 | I'm on openSuSE |
| 16:27.20 | hozer | dtx: what distro? |
| 16:27.22 | jpcass | (Im running Xubuntu, so XFCE windows...) |
| 16:27.23 | *** join/#openmoko webjames (n=james@82-46-37-48.cable.ubr01.nail.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 16:27.33 | *** join/#openmoko steffenk_ (n=frost@p54B1E1C0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:28.05 | dtx | Ubuntu 7.04 |
| 16:28.14 | tuukkah | jpcass, s/windows/desktop/ |
| 16:28.22 | dtx | :-P |
| 16:28.39 | hozer | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:28.39 | hozer | ../openmoko/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/openmoko/download.sh: line 28: lynx: command not found |
| 16:28.39 | hozer | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:28.39 | hozer | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:28.39 | hozer | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:28.40 | hozer | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:28.42 | hozer | ../openmoko/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/openmoko/download.sh: line 28: lynx: command not found |
| 16:28.44 | hozer | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:28.46 | hozer | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:28.48 | dtx | 7.04 comes with gcc4.x so you need to install gcc3.x |
| 16:28.48 | hozer | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:28.50 | hozer | hrrrm... mokomakefile needs to have lynx installed |
| 16:29.17 | dtx | odd |
| 16:29.22 | devestate | hozer: it won't run without lynx |
| 16:29.24 | jpcass | tuukkah: yep - any ideas where I should put the fonts? |
| 16:29.51 | dtx | I wonder why it doesn't just use wget |
| 16:29.51 | devestate | I have no idea |
| 16:29.51 | tuukkah | jpcass, no, sorry |
| 16:30.04 | *** join/#openmoko zxmbi77 (n=zxmbi77@u-173-c113.cs.uni-tuebingen.de) |
| 16:30.23 | devestate | jpcass: build/tmp/rootfs/usr/share/fonts/ |
| 16:30.30 | tuukkah | dtx, lack of < is a small bug as the key is there but produces > |
| 16:31.04 | dtx | yeah |
| 16:31.09 | dtx | so I noticed |
| 16:31.10 | jpcass | devestate: thanks - thats where the fonts are, but they need to be copied somewhere on my host system for Xephyr to work (according to wiki) |
| 16:31.21 | dtx | unfortunately I'm trying to make a test html page |
| 16:31.22 | dtx | haha |
| 16:31.26 | jpcass | i tried copying to /usr/share/fonts on host but doesnt help... |
| 16:32.17 | jpcass | wiki entry http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr explains how to copy with Gnome Desktop, but doesnt give specific locations... |
| 16:32.18 | devestate | jpcass: sorry misread let me take a look at my notes |
| 16:33.39 | *** join/#openmoko zell1983 (n=zell1983@host194-122-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 16:33.54 | tuukkah | don't they go to something like ~/.fonts when you do that in gnome? |
| 16:34.56 | *** join/#openmoko gerikes (n=mhildret@pool-72-70-245-142.spfdma.east.verizon.net) |
| 16:35.29 | jpcass | tuukah: in my user dir? thought fonts would be system-wide... I'll try though... |
| 16:36.47 | jpcass | tuukah: that didnt work ;-( |
| 16:36.55 | tuukkah | not all are anymore when programs use client side fonts with fontconfig |
| 16:36.58 | *** join/#openmoko MrFeetio (n=david@c-71-230-5-247.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 16:36.59 | *** part/#openmoko MrFeetio (n=david@c-71-230-5-247.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 16:37.08 | *** join/#openmoko MrFeetio (n=david@c-71-230-5-247.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 16:37.10 | *** join/#openmoko sixfeet (i=sixfeet@p5484E13F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:37.40 | MrFeetio | whats the aspect ratio of the neo's screen? |
| 16:37.44 | SpeedEvil | 4:3 |
| 16:37.49 | SpeedEvil | 480x640 |
| 16:37.53 | SpeedEvil | well - 3:4 |
| 16:38.00 | don-o | :) |
| 16:38.17 | MrFeetio | what is the iphone's aspect ratio? |
| 16:38.23 | SpeedEvil | Dunno. |
| 16:38.34 | don-o | 480x320 |
| 16:38.35 | SpeedEvil | ##iphone? |
| 16:38.47 | don-o | 3:2 then |
| 16:40.20 | hozer | wooo! I have the qemu version running |
| 16:40.42 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 16:40.46 | dtx | I'm seeing /usr/share/fonts /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts and ~/.fonts in some of the config files in /etc/fonts/conf.d |
| 16:41.07 | hozer | hrrm, I hope the real thing boots faster than the emulator :) |
| 16:41.17 | don-o | hozer: me too :) |
| 16:41.39 | dtx | They haven't put in the async service starting yet |
| 16:41.47 | dtx | I believe it is their plan to do so, thouhg |
| 16:41.50 | dtx | though |
| 16:42.18 | don-o | i thought async service startup was all the rage amongst linux distros a while back. i have yet to see an implemententation. |
| 16:42.28 | dtx | Ummm |
| 16:42.34 | dtx | Well, my distro is using it right now |
| 16:42.39 | dtx | Ubuntu does |
| 16:42.42 | don-o | ubuntu's startup, for instance, looks very serial |
| 16:42.51 | dtx | Its async |
| 16:42.52 | dtx | now |
| 16:42.54 | don-o | maybe im expecting too much |
| 16:43.08 | *** join/#openmoko n0on3 (n=n0on3@81-208-83-247.fastres.net) |
| 16:43.17 | dtx | I mean it has to start up dependent services first |
| 16:43.23 | dtx | like net before ssh, etc. |
| 16:43.27 | *** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=orion@59.176.111.177) |
| 16:43.29 | don-o | sure |
| 16:43.40 | dtx | and udev before all |
| 16:43.41 | dtx | :-P |
| 16:44.06 | don-o | im tar'ing my openmoko build. 1.2GB and climbing. |
| 16:44.33 | don-o | id like to make it available for download but i dont have a place where i want to let the internet grab a 4-8GB file. |
| 16:44.47 | MrFeetio | torrent |
| 16:44.48 | *** join/#openmoko Moo^^ (n=moo@oul110-gw1.netplaza.fi) |
| 16:44.56 | dtx | Just encode it to an image and drop it on bayimg |
| 16:44.56 | dtx | :-P |
| 16:45.01 | jgm | don-o: try bootchart to see what starts up when, you'll see if you are running parallel startup or not |
| 16:45.25 | MrFeetio | id download it, the seed it forever and ever |
| 16:45.27 | don-o | MrFeetio: good idea. |
| 16:45.52 | don-o | oh That kind of image. ha. |
| 16:46.12 | *** part/#openmoko flingpoo (n=ray@cybertron.cyth.net) |
| 16:46.37 | dtx | ;-) |
| 16:48.00 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@c-76-30-222-129.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 16:48.04 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc__ (i=muciipec@p54951ADA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:48.36 | minime | woglinde, i put berlin into the local groups(created them too) |
| 17:05.10 | *** part/#openmoko gerikes (n=mhildret@pool-72-70-245-142.spfdma.east.verizon.net) |
| 17:05.11 | *** join/#openmoko FourDollars (n=FourDoll@59-104-129-200.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw) |
| 17:05.12 | hozer | so, how can I import my palm phonebook into the openmoko contact manager? |
| 17:05.12 | dtx | sed |
| 17:05.12 | woglinde | minime okay |
| 17:05.14 | jpcass | dtx: thanks /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts seemd to work for fonts (copied ttf folder from rootfs/usr/share/fonts) |
| 17:05.16 | *** part/#openmoko mdt (n=mdt@littlelun.emdete.de) |
| 17:05.16 | *** join/#openmoko HeinMueck (n=Miranda@dslb-088-065-041-058.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 17:05.16 | dtx | awesome |
| 17:05.16 | dtx | Maybe that should be added to the FAQ |
| 17:05.16 | dtx | :-P |
| 17:05.16 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081D9B6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:05.17 | jpcass | will do. getting a lot of 'cannot load stock icon from theme' problems now, and many missing icons on mokoscreen... |
| 17:05.18 | tuukkah | jpcass, others have reported this here too |
| 17:05.18 | dtx | goin' to lunch |
| 17:05.20 | *** part/#openmoko empty_mind (n=orion@59.176.111.177) |
| 17:05.22 | jpcass | runs nice and slow on my 2.4GHz core-2 duo ;-) |
| 17:05.22 | zecke | mickey|bbl: theme-meister? |
| 17:05.23 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@38.98.11.186) |
| 17:05.23 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@dyn-62-56-109-6.dslaccess.co.uk) |
| 17:05.23 | *** join/#openmoko Kensan (n=ken@gw.ptr-80-238-204-148.customer.ch.netstream.com) |
| 17:05.23 | ewanm89_laptop | jpcass: Are you talking about qemu running slow? |
| 17:05.25 | *** part/#openmoko jgm (n=jgm@host-87-74-179-156.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 17:05.25 | jpcass | no, running native x86 inside Xephyr.. |
| 17:05.25 | tuukkah | jpcass, do you have /usr/share/themes in rootfs? |
| 17:05.27 | tuukkah | on the neo, that dir contains Default Emacs MBOpus blonde openmd |
| 17:05.27 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (i=muciipec@p54951812.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:05.27 | jpcass | tuukah: yes, got blondie, Default, Emacs, MBOpus and openmoko-standard |
| 17:05.44 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@rikers.org) |
| 17:06.02 | tuukkah | heh, gtkterm cut the entries =) |
| 17:07.06 | don-o | while tarring up the build, tar is turning up a bunch of files with unix file perms of 000. odd. |
| 17:07.16 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@p508D82D7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:08.32 | don-o | files in a /.pc/ directory |
| 17:08.46 | don-o | probably some revision control thingy |
| 17:09.08 | ewanm89_laptop | They are how quilt does it's patching. |
| 17:09.35 | don-o | ewanm89_laptop: any idea why it would set the file perm to 000? |
| 17:09.45 | galexande | the first .pc directory i look in doesn't have any 000 perms |
| 17:12.19 | ewanm89_laptop | Mine niether. |
| 17:14.37 | daMaestro | counter? |
| 17:14.37 | aloril | (last update 2007-07-10 13:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in 4 days 18:45:22 (4.782±3.0 days) (1735;246) |
| 17:14.56 | daMaestro | hmmm ..... me wanty! |
| 17:16.34 | don-o | galexande, ewanm89_laptop: example: http://pastie.caboo.se/78634 |
| 17:16.55 | don-o | im not too worried about it, anyone untaring the build wouldnt need those and they'll probably get rebuilt anyways. |
| 17:18.13 | galexande | haha caboo.se |
| 17:18.18 | *** join/#openmoko gdiebel (n=gdiebel@adsl-69-217-146-185.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net) |
| 17:18.30 | don-o | galexande: im a rails developer by day :) |
| 17:19.13 | galexande | huh, yup, i have 'em too |
| 17:19.32 | galexande | and zero-length. weird. that's probably how quilt marks that it has applied a patch, rather than deleting it |
| 17:19.45 | galexande | (wild-assed-guess) |
| 17:23.11 | don-o | why oh why didnt i set INHERIT += "rm_work" when i built this thing. |
| 17:25.45 | *** join/#openmoko jpcass (n=chatzill@johnkerry.plus.com) |
| 17:27.57 | galexande | yeah that's a good idea if you're building a release thing, i hadn't thought of it either :) |
| 17:29.03 | galexande | though, only 9GB, for all the build files for an entire distro...that's pretty cool :) |
| 17:29.18 | *** join/#openmoko galexande (n=greg@shed.goonies.be) |
| 17:31.09 | *** part/#openmoko dantalizing (n=dantaliz@n128-227-50-179.xlate.ufl.edu) |
| 17:31.14 | ewon | http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/iphone/iphone-field-test-mode-lets-you-spy-on-the-att-network-277797.php |
| 17:31.55 | *** join/#openmoko Freed (n=jecsar@mac33-2-82-225-98-209.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 17:32.40 | mjr | "In other words, you can see things that AT&T might not want you to see" because they prefer an ignorant customer? |
| 17:32.48 | mjr | I suppose that's true enough |
| 17:33.17 | *** join/#openmoko saaib (n=812e5a7d@alpa.com.ar) |
| 17:34.35 | *** join/#openmoko texel (n=june@209.147.168.2) |
| 17:34.44 | *** part/#openmoko saaib (n=812e5a7d@alpa.com.ar) |
| 17:37.00 | *** join/#openmoko saaib (n=812e5a7d@alpa.com.ar) |
| 17:37.43 | jpcass | this is what I see running moko in Xephyr, others seeing the same? http://www.johnkerry.plus.com/xephyr-moko-screen.jpg |
| 17:38.03 | Elrond | Okay, good news: After running gllin a bit, my gps feels much more normal. So I think, there is some reset code in gllin. |
| 17:38.35 | Elrond | bad news: I still have no idea, what the params on the channel-setup means. And the signal strengths still confuses me totally. |
| 17:40.32 | Elrond | 1. Going outside, vary PRN on the openmoko, look at signals, guess "Ohh, 9 looks like it is there" |
| 17:40.41 | *** join/#openmoko zxmbi77 (n=zxmbi77@u-173-c113.cs.uni-tuebingen.de) |
| 17:41.05 | Elrond | 2. Get sirf3 base navi, make on "9 is there within seconds, others need time. |
| 17:41.09 | Elrond | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:41.58 | Elrond | 3. Put 9 into neo, go into basement: Signal does not change at all. |
| 17:42.06 | Elrond | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:42.11 | zilt | jpcass: almost - I have a "OpenMoko TaskManager" toolbar at the bottom of the screen |
| 17:42.37 | tuukkah | there should also be one icon above the "0/0" label |
| 17:43.48 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@betelgeuse.theinternetco.net) |
| 17:46.05 | *** join/#openmoko crunchywelch (n=welch@pool-96-224-162-156.nycmny.east.verizon.net) |
| 17:46.33 | zilt | jpcass: this is what I get: http://antimass.org/aking/moko-snap.jpg |
| 17:49.41 | galexande | i'm in love! |
| 17:49.49 | tuukkah | i guess those images come from somewhere else than /usr/share/themes |
| 17:50.00 | galexande | never have i ever seen any screen more clearly communicate "i will not get in the way of you making your own UI" |
| 17:50.21 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
| 17:50.39 | PBeck | tag |
| 17:51.18 | tuukkah | galexande, what screen are you referring to? |
| 17:51.24 | galexande | tuuk, http://antimass.org/aking/moko-snap.jpg |
| 17:52.30 | tuukkah | how does it communicate that?-) |
| 17:52.40 | unknown_lamer | once I get paid (*grumble grumble damn clients*) and get mine ... mwhahah emacs ui |
| 17:52.58 | galexande | at least the star trek ui is designed for touch panels :) |
| 17:53.14 | galexande | tuuk, how does a canvas evoke the mona lisa? |
| 17:54.01 | tuukkah | uhhuh |
| 17:54.25 | high-rez | have any devices shipped yet ? |
| 17:54.26 | galexande | high, presumed no. |
| 17:54.30 | tuukkah | p0 devices ;-) |
| 17:54.32 | galexande | we have been told that it will be at least a week, so sit back and wait |
| 17:55.08 | unknown_lamer | galexande: I'm going to drop either scwm or stumpwm onto it (depending on which uses less memory; scwm being an fvwm1.x fork it uses under 5M so probably scwm) |
| 17:55.20 | unknown_lamer | galexande: and then write a simple tiling layout manager for it in scheme |
| 17:56.00 | galexande | unknown, ugh i don't want to hear more :) |
| 17:56.16 | galexande | i'm in love with matchbox for palmtops, it is convenient and always willing to get out of your way |
| 17:56.29 | unknown_lamer | I also want my unit to just display text :-) |
| 17:56.36 | unknown_lamer | fancily styled text, but text only nonetheless |
| 17:56.36 | high-rez | So what was that rant on planet.openmoko.org on the 11th about? Anyone know? :) |
| 17:56.56 | galexande | i'm with you on the text...the star trek ui is just colored squares, colored corner curves, and text |
| 17:57.02 | galexande | high, stress |
| 17:57.04 | unknown_lamer | guis are nice, wimp sucks |
| 17:57.53 | galexande | unknown, what is your plan for text input? |
| 17:57.53 | texel | I hope a little UI love is in the plans for work during this phase, because as-is, openmoko's UI is not exactly usable for non-developers. |
| 17:58.09 | galexande | texel, we're going to have so many different UIs we'll be fighting |
| 17:58.17 | texel | galexande: how so? |
| 17:58.28 | unknown_lamer | galexande: smallest set of buttons I can do predictive text on with my thumb |
| 17:58.39 | unknown_lamer | galexande: I like the QW ER TY ... keyboard someone mocked up a while ago |
| 17:58.46 | galexande | i don't know how many developers are like unknown and me, but we've got wildly divergent ideas and this is the first phone to let us play with them |
| 17:58.48 | unknown_lamer | and then sticky modifier bits |
| 17:58.53 | texel | Ahh. |
| 17:58.56 | texel | Makes sense. |
| 17:59.01 | unknown_lamer | yeah, I'm tried of being forced to use a standard ui |
| 17:59.04 | texel | I guess I'm just talking about the stock install. |
| 17:59.14 | unknown_lamer | e.g. series60 is cool at first, but then you realize you can't change anything worth changing |
| 17:59.17 | galexande | unknown, i guess within an elisp dictionary or whatever, you can do a pretty easy job of predictive text for command functions.. |
| 17:59.24 | unknown_lamer | yeah |
| 17:59.31 | unknown_lamer | and you happen to have that :-) |
| 17:59.39 | unknown_lamer | and for all of the programming modes I use |
| 17:59.43 | *** join/#openmoko jgm (n=jgm@host-87-74-179-156.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 18:00.01 | texel | galexande: couple that with a TAGS library, and you have predictive text for code as well. |
| 18:00.02 | unknown_lamer | and in general (just cat /usr/share/words for {text|muse|planner|...}-mode) |
| 18:00.04 | galexande | no if i were to do something linguistic, it would be more like colorforth |
| 18:00.35 | unknown_lamer | xkr47: it's easier than it seems |
| 18:00.54 | unknown_lamer | xkr47: mouse events are just key hits in emacs so it is feasible to define a purely touchscreen emacs |
| 18:01.09 | xkr47 | unknown_lamer, :) |
| 18:01.12 | unknown_lamer | xkr47: now the config might be a few thousand lines long ... but what's another thousand or two lines on an already thousand line config :-) |
| 18:01.50 | unknown_lamer | there's also a gesture.el for mouse gestures on emacswiki that I've yet to poke around with much |
| 18:01.51 | xkr47 | hozer, "I only want to receive calls from my dad this evening" |
| 18:02.09 | unknown_lamer | mostly 'cause the acceleration on my ghetto trackpoint is so high it is useless for anything other than focusing windows and clicking large buttons |
| 18:02.58 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (i=muciipec@p549514C0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:03.59 | *** join/#openmoko switch3r (n=switch3r@128.8.37.122) |
| 18:04.03 | *** join/#openmoko Gorth2 (n=gorth@0x5551d1e2.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 18:04.52 | *** join/#openmoko davi (n=davi@80.30.83.239) |
| 18:08.14 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AD462.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:08.22 | tuukkah | jpcass, the missing images should be at usr/share/icons/openmoko-standard |
| 18:09.51 | ewanm89_laptop | Um, why won't this work. |
| 18:10.33 | galexande | ewan, you forgot to pray first |
| 18:12.21 | *** join/#openmoko switch3r (n=switch3r@128.8.37.122) |
| 18:12.33 | ewanm89_laptop | I added gvim to tasks/task-openmoko.bb and increase PR by one via a quilt patch and it built it added it into image, I change this patch to vim (no toolbar so gvim is useless anyway), and creat a new patch which adds sudo and increases PR again. |
| 18:12.46 | ewanm89_laptop | I still have gvim, and no sudo. |
| 18:13.54 | ewanm89_laptop | any ideas? |
| 18:14.13 | ewanm89_laptop | It applys them fine. |
| 18:14.26 | ewanm89_laptop | [ ! -e openmoko/patches/series ] || \ |
| 18:14.26 | ewanm89_laptop | ( cd openmoko ; quilt push -a ) |
| 18:14.26 | ewanm89_laptop | Applying patch patches/vim.patch |
| 18:14.26 | ewanm89_laptop | patching file trunk/oe/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb |
| 18:14.27 | ewanm89_laptop | Applying patch patches/sudo.patch |
| 18:14.27 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 18:14.28 | ewanm89_laptop | patching file trunk/oe/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb |
| 18:14.31 | ewanm89_laptop | Now at patch patches/sudo.patch |
| 18:14.33 | ewanm89_laptop | ( cd build ; . ../setup-env ; \ |
| 18:14.36 | ewanm89_laptop | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:14.42 | *** join/#openmoko h3lb (n=helb@84.244.90.159) |
| 18:14.58 | *** join/#openmoko ericthefish (n=ivan@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 18:17.40 | Elrond | ewanm89_laptop - Can you please use a pastebin service? Like http://en.pastebin.ca/ ? |
| 18:17.43 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Montreal]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_North_Texas]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/ru]] [[Main_Page/ru]] [[FIC/ru]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_North_Texas]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Cleveland]] and other changes |
| 18:19.12 | galexande | i can't believe fic managed to offload the task of building a distribution network onto the open source community |
| 18:19.14 | galexande | that's really pretty cool |
| 18:19.18 | ewanm89_laptop | Elrond: Yeah, it crossed my mind as I hit. |
| 18:19.32 | ewanm89_laptop | s/./ enter/ |
| 18:19.58 | SpeedEvil | Distribution networn? |
| 18:20.31 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@dyn-62-56-76-254.dslaccess.co.uk) |
| 18:20.48 | Moriarty_ | galexande: ? |
| 18:20.51 | hozer | galexande: HAHA, that's a pretty good business hack if you asked me ;) |
| 18:21.03 | galexande | all these people ordering half a dozen neos to save on shipping for a group |
| 18:21.16 | Moriarty_ | ah. |
| 18:21.17 | Moriarty_ | :) |
| 18:21.35 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - You saw my list above? |
| 18:22.14 | xkr47 | galexande, it's funny and encouraging to see I think :) |
| 18:22.33 | jgm | I wonder how many GAT01s will turn up on ebay... |
| 18:22.50 | *** join/#openmoko soccerpirate4 (i=8f450331@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-c13afc4d826efa6f) |
| 18:22.53 | Moriarty_ | probably not many. I think most of the people ordering them actually want them and aren't trying to flip 'em. |
| 18:22.58 | Moriarty_ | that's my thinking, at least. |
| 18:23.18 | SpeedEvil | no |
| 18:23.20 | galexande | mine would only go if ii get a gta0 |
| 18:23.22 | galexande | 2 |
| 18:23.25 | Elrond | jgm - You mean all the people who brick'd them? ;-) |
| 18:23.51 | jgm | That's the other thing, will we start seeing unbricking services from those who purchased the advanced kit? |
| 18:23.52 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Basicly, this thing confuses me. |
| 18:24.00 | galexande | jgm, if necessary |
| 18:24.07 | Moriarty_ | wouldn't that be cool. :) |
| 18:24.25 | Elrond | jgm - I presume, that those services will happen, yes. |
| 18:24.41 | Moriarty_ | to pointlessly extrapolate, a whole cottage industry around hard-mods to the neo. :P |
| 18:25.19 | SpeedEvil | Sorry - I don't see a list - just woken up |
| 18:25.33 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Let me scroll up. ;-) |
| 18:25.51 | hozer | I had this idea of a custom carbon-fiber case or shell, but I'm not sure that would work so well for radio propagation |
| 18:25.51 | jgm | I suspect that we'll see fewer hard mods, because it sounds like FIC is planning on producing new handsets quite quickly |
| 18:26.07 | jgm | If they end up like HTC then there won't be time for adding your own mods to the thing! |
| 18:26.10 | Moriarty_ | heh |
| 18:26.11 | Elrond | 1. Going outside, vary PRN on the neo, look at signals, guess "Ohh, 9 looks like it is there" |
| 18:26.29 | hozer | what is HTC? |
| 18:26.31 | Moriarty_ | yeah. HTC seems to shoot out a new handset before you can say 'marklar!' |
| 18:26.41 | Elrond | 2. Get sirf3 based navi, switch on, 9 is there within seconds, others need time. |
| 18:26.46 | Moriarty_ | manufacturer of WM-based smartphones. |
| 18:26.46 | SpeedEvil | I see that - I don't see what you mean by distribution network. |
| 18:26.48 | Elrond | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:26.50 | jgm | hozer: WinMibole handset manufacturer |
| 18:26.58 | Elrond | 3. Put 9 into neo, go into basement: Signal does not change at all. |
| 18:26.58 | jgm | s/Mibole/Mobile (sigh)/ |
| 18:27.03 | Elrond | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:27.30 | Moriarty_ | I think I'll start referring to it as WinMibole. I like that. |
| 18:27.48 | jgm | s/thanks/tm/ |
| 18:27.56 | jgm | s/sigh/tm/ |
| 18:28.16 | jgm | Okay I think someone is about to confiscate my keyboard, I'm no longer qualified to use it |
| 18:28.19 | *** join/#openmoko RbdPngn (n=ningerso@uslink-66.173.44-135.uslink.net) |
| 18:28.51 | jpcass | tuukkah: thanks: i see the icons in /usr/share/icons/openmoko-standard, wonder why moko doesnt use them? |
| 18:29.11 | jgm | Anyway, was there some decision on how to handle storage of things like SMS messages? I'm thinking of my unified messaging app and wondering if I will need to build out my own data store or if there will be an easy way of accessing an already-present store |
| 18:29.40 | jpcass | jgm: are you unifying sms and email? |
| 18:30.04 | jgm | SMS/email/voice (mail or calls, depends)/IM/IRC/etc |
| 18:30.27 | jgm | Basically I want a decent interface that doesn't segregate my information just because it turned up on the 'phone one way as opposed to another |
| 18:31.04 | hozer | jgm: are you gonna have a desktop version of this as well? |
| 18:31.08 | mjr | libgsmd is presumably going to have some sort of sms api |
| 18:31.08 | galexande | yeah, i agree strongly jgm, especially for core phone functions like recent calls and recent SMS which any app may want |
| 18:31.15 | *** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 18:31.16 | jpcass | sounds good. I'd like an app that looks like sms but uses sms/email - for my mum to use; she loves sms but will never turn a computer on for email! |
| 18:31.29 | galexande | it seems like for the phone-specific ones, maybe gsmd or libgsmd can take the role, but i think you'd have to write it yourself. |
| 18:31.35 | mjr | and yeah, sms/im/mail could do with a bit of unifying ui-wise |
| 18:32.05 | jgm | So I'm thinking telepathy for the backend, as we already have IM and IRC channels (plus VOIP, video streaming and others) there |
| 18:32.24 | galexande | i wonder what sending a text message looks like in gsm at commands |
| 18:32.31 | jgm | Then a 'bit in the middle' that stores all of the data and allows you to tag/manage/retrieve it |
| 18:32.44 | jgm | And some sort of frontend, although that will be loosely coupled so that other apps can get to the same data |
| 18:33.05 | hozer | or better yet, store everythign in maildir so things like squirelmail (or other imap frontents) can use it |
| 18:33.07 | jgm | hozer: I think that people are looking at SyncML for that (although I think that SyncML changed its name a while ago) |
| 18:33.33 | jgm | galexande: there is a spec for that if you want to read it, think it's 05.07 but not totally sure |
| 18:33.40 | galexande | hozer, well except that things like "the most recent 10 calls" don't make as much sense in maildir |
| 18:34.04 | hozer | galexande: true.. |
| 18:34.19 | *** join/#openmoko bkruse (i=bkruse@nat/digium/x-2a3734f76ec3a11c) |
| 18:34.20 | jgm | Yip here you go: http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/html-info/0705.htm |
| 18:34.26 | jpcass | tuukkah: are you getting all icons in moko/Xephyr? (is anyone?) |
| 18:34.33 | galexande | trying to be too general and satisfy every possible usage will get us chasing our tails, sadly |
| 18:34.46 | hozer | but at the least, store it in files that can either be rsync'ed, or could be stored on a distributed filesystem |
| 18:34.54 | galexande | thanks jgm, i had no luck last time i tried to look for gsm standards |
| 18:35.21 | hozer | either AFS with disconnected operation, or NFSv4 with cachefs |
| 18:35.35 | jgm | galexande: really? But there are so many of them :) |
| 18:36.11 | tuukkah | jpcass, i'm not even trying at this point |
| 18:36.20 | Moriarty_ | hozer: did they get AFS to do disconnected ops? |
| 18:36.32 | *** join/#openmoko Drakeson (n=user@128.100.244.150) |
| 18:36.35 | Moriarty_ | I know Coda was supposed to have it, but Coda turned into Intermezo and died. |
| 18:36.36 | tuukkah | did you people notice that sms and email already are unified in the current ui? |
| 18:36.40 | hozer | some umich research project had it working |
| 18:36.55 | jgm | tuukkah: yep but nowhere near enough integration for me |
| 18:36.58 | hozer | and the code needs to be merged and tested with the openafs trunk |
| 18:37.08 | *** join/#openmoko lextul (n=thomas@80.64.176.30) |
| 18:37.13 | jpcass | tuukkah: no, i'm just trying to get it working so I can find things like that out! ;-) |
| 18:37.13 | galexande | i think email and sms are similar enough, you could use Maildir for SMS |
| 18:37.22 | galexande | though i'm fond of mbox :) |
| 18:37.34 | Drakeson | I am looking for a device having open source platform which has GPS and accelerometer, and possibly other sensors |
| 18:37.38 | Aria | Mmm. |
| 18:37.43 | jpcass | yeah, I'll teach my mum to use mutt. |
| 18:37.53 | Aria | Maildir /is/ easier to synch at the filesystem level. |
| 18:37.55 | tuukkah | jpcass, you can try qemu first, that's easy at least |
| 18:38.03 | jgm | I want to be able to 'send' to someone and let the system decide the best way: IM (if they are online and not idle), SMS (if I have their number), email (fallback), or whatever else. |
| 18:38.07 | hozer | galexande: you should look at dovecot and their proposed 'dbox' format |
| 18:38.52 | Drakeson | do you know a device running openmoko that has accelerometers, GPS, and some others sensors? |
| 18:38.52 | aloril | Drakeson: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 18:40.25 | tuukkah | Drakeson, the next Neo version will have those, and you can hack your own in of course |
| 18:40.53 | Drakeson | is there a prototype that I can buy or see? |
| 18:41.37 | jpcass | tuukkah: why would qemu help? doesnt that just emulate arm processor? or does it affect the rootfs/layout/graphics rendering? |
| 18:41.38 | mjr | well the GTA01 orderable now has GPS, but not accelerometers |
| 18:41.41 | Elrond | Drakeson - You should not expect too much from the gps/accels, or at least: Don't expect wonders! |
| 18:42.12 | Drakeson | I need such a device for my research. I don't really expect much yet |
| 18:42.16 | tuukkah | jpcass, well i know i see the icons in qemu =) |
| 18:43.02 | galexande | drakeson, it is not infeasible to add accelerometers to gta01. if you really want to build a device that has a specific set of features, you can pretty much always do it with gumstix.com |
| 18:43.09 | jpcass | tuukkah: ;-) ok, I'll try that - did you follow this howto: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU |
| 18:43.10 | SpeedEvil | drakes: see [[Accelerometer_funsamentals]] on the wiki |
| 18:43.15 | Elrond | Drakeson - Well, as mjr said: GTA01Bv03 is available (you can check the very detailed hardware specs on the wiki). But not accelerometers. |
| 18:43.17 | SpeedEvil | drakes: see [[Accelerometer_Fundamentals]] on the wiki |
| 18:43.46 | tuukkah | jpcass, i just downloaded the mokomakefile and ran make setup && make qemu |
| 18:43.48 | SpeedEvil | Drakeson: research? |
| 18:43.56 | Drakeson | univ |
| 18:44.07 | jpcass | tuukkah: alright here we go..... |
| 18:44.08 | Elrond | Drakeson - what sort of research? |
| 18:44.46 | SpeedEvil | Drakeson: pizza delivery tracking? |
| 18:44.57 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - *lol* |
| 18:45.04 | Drakeson | they call it pervasive computing |
| 18:45.08 | Drakeson | lol |
| 18:45.15 | buz | oh not afs, please not |
| 18:45.51 | buz | that is TOTALLY over the top |
| 18:45.54 | Elrond | buz - andrew filesystem?! |
| 18:46.16 | buz | Elrond: i was looking at the backlog |
| 18:46.17 | Drakeson | army fire service ? |
| 18:46.29 | buz | [20:36] <hozer> and the code needs to be merged and tested with the openafs trunk |
| 18:46.34 | Elrond | buz - I haven't scrolled that much up... |
| 18:46.45 | Drakeson | sorry, thought it was a joke |
| 18:46.56 | buz | well in here i'm never quite sure |
| 18:47.02 | buz | the iscsi guy seemed to be quite serious |
| 18:47.02 | ewanm89_laptop | I added gvim to tasks/task-openmoko.bb and increase PR by one via a quilt patch and it built it added it into image, I change this patch to vim (no toolbar so gvim is useless anyway), and creat a new patch which adds sudo and increases PR again. |
| 18:47.13 | ewanm89_laptop | I still have gvim, and no sudo. |
| 18:47.39 | ewanm89_laptop | And the patches are reported as applied by mokomakefile. |
| 18:48.07 | Drakeson | when will the next neo will be released? |
| 18:48.16 | buz | october, probably |
| 18:48.25 | Moriarty_ | buz: afs is indeed ridiculously overpowered. |
| 18:48.34 | Moriarty_ | I've always wanted to put it to its full use. |
| 18:48.35 | *** join/#openmoko r4kY (n=Ladder_@ws42127.studby.hig.no) |
| 18:48.40 | buz | and an utter pain to use |
| 18:48.43 | Elrond | Drakeson - Officialy october, but you should assume december or so. |
| 18:48.56 | buz | is that thing even in use outside of uni and ibm? |
| 18:49.00 | Moriarty_ | oh most definitely a pain to use. That doesn't make it any less cool. :P |
| 18:49.06 | Moriarty_ | not that I've ever really heard of. |
| 18:49.13 | Drakeson | is there a way to get a prototype for university research? |
| 18:49.18 | buz | having said that, maildir ain't so bad |
| 18:49.26 | Moriarty_ | nah, maildir is sorta nice. |
| 18:49.27 | buz | but you'd probably need some sane caching mechanism |
| 18:49.33 | Elrond | Drakeson - Of the one with accels? Probably not yet. |
| 18:50.15 | buz | this is gonna be one expensive summer |
| 18:50.21 | buz | new notebook, asus eee and then neo |
| 18:50.59 | ewanm89_laptop | I got the new notebook, need to order the neo though. |
| 18:51.08 | buz | i delay neo for gta02 |
| 18:51.15 | buz | simply cant justify buying both |
| 18:51.20 | Elrond | Moriarty_, buz - Any worthwhile useable alternatives to afs? (I'm still looking for an networked fs where you dont need to trust clients) |
| 18:51.34 | SpeedEvil | Drakeson: What are you doing? I'm working on adding accels to P1 |
| 18:51.36 | buz | there are no sane distributed fs, full stop |
| 18:51.49 | buz | there's kludges like sshfs and webdav though |
| 18:52.00 | Drakeson | what's P1? |
| 18:52.05 | Elrond | sshfs is, what I'm using currently. |
| 18:52.05 | SpeedEvil | The current model. |
| 18:52.07 | buz | phase1 |
| 18:52.09 | mjr | sfs seemed vaguely interesting |
| 18:52.21 | so_solid_moo | sfs is pretty good |
| 18:52.29 | SpeedEvil | Drakeson: the Accels are being added to the version for sale in Oct. |
| 18:52.30 | buz | i guess it really depends on what you need to do |
| 18:52.33 | Elrond | But even git-on-sshfs is not working out-of-the-box. |
| 18:52.40 | buz | and the performance you need |
| 18:53.02 | SpeedEvil | NFS? |
| 18:53.12 | buz | NFS needs trusted clients |
| 18:53.13 | SpeedEvil | Just worksish. |
| 18:53.15 | buz | nfsv3 anyway |
| 18:53.39 | Elrond | nfsv4... when it finally works, might start to be an alternative. |
| 18:53.52 | SpeedEvil | Drakeson: I'm contemplating a kit for this version, to add them. |
| 18:53.54 | buz | i was hearing about that one since the last century |
| 18:53.59 | SpeedEvil | Drakeson: |
| 18:54.00 | buz | i doubt it will ever make it out the door |
| 18:54.08 | SpeedEvil | Drakeson: ~1mg |
| 18:54.23 | Elrond | buz - Yeah, same guess here. |
| 18:54.28 | Drakeson | I have been crying since about 5 years ago (about when ST microelectronics produced MEMS accelerometers) about using accels in handheld devices. |
| 18:54.38 | buz | in the mean time, there's not much beside SMB :((( |
| 18:54.47 | SpeedEvil | What do you want to do? And wasn't AD first? |
| 18:54.48 | Drakeson | unfortunately it was not exactly my aread |
| 18:54.52 | Drakeson | *area |
| 18:55.01 | Elrond | buz - SMB? No, never. |
| 18:55.11 | buz | what alternative is there, really |
| 18:55.15 | Elrond | (my personal decision.) |
| 18:55.24 | buz | i dont like smb either |
| 18:55.36 | buz | but it sort of works |
| 18:55.40 | Drakeson | I had a handful of ideas about applications of accels |
| 18:55.42 | thomasg_gpm | CM: openmoko makefile works now. it was no jdk 1.5 problem, it was a vm=jre-problem :) |
| 18:55.49 | tuukkah | i used to use sfs and it was just fine |
| 18:55.54 | Elrond | sshfs sort-of-works. ;) |
| 18:56.14 | buz | less than smb in my experiene |
| 18:56.15 | SpeedEvil | Drakeson: the physics sharply limits apps. Basically inertial positioning generally doesn't work for more than seconds. |
| 18:56.16 | Drakeson | and have seen them recently published or in use (e.g. in iphone) |
| 18:56.18 | buz | but muuuch easier to set up |
| 18:56.36 | *** join/#openmoko switch3r (n=switch3r@128.8.37.122) |
| 18:56.40 | Elrond | buz - Right. And I'm not going to use samba classic at all. |
| 18:56.41 | buz | smb.conf is approaching black magic |
| 18:56.41 | Drakeson | I care much more about relative positioning |
| 18:56.56 | Drakeson | and I know about the drift |
| 18:56.58 | *** join/#openmoko fabiand (n=fabiand@p548918AA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:57.31 | SpeedEvil | You can't even do relative postiontin over more than a few seconds. |
| 18:57.34 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals |
| 18:58.23 | Elrond | tuukkah - Any quicklink tutorial on sfs? |
| 18:58.31 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List_-_Hardware#Accelerometer is also |
| 18:58.43 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 18:58.44 | Drakeson | btw, will the device have 4 accels (each with 3 axes)? |
| 18:58.48 | SpeedEvil | buz: for what? |
| 18:58.54 | *** join/#openmoko __brandon__ (n=cafebabe@ip70-176-192-121.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 18:58.55 | SpeedEvil | Drakeson: 2 3 axes |
| 18:58.57 | Elrond | Drakeson - Only 2 3d. |
| 18:58.57 | mjr | Drakeson, two, going by current info |
| 18:59.06 | Drakeson | *sigh* |
| 18:59.06 | ewanm89_laptop | buz: Some of us don't care about the case. |
| 18:59.07 | buz | sean himself says the current design is largely suboptimal |
| 18:59.19 | Drakeson | that cannot sense rotation, right? |
| 18:59.19 | SpeedEvil | Drakeson: the current accels mentioned ont he list are very bad - 7 bits in a G |
| 18:59.25 | SpeedEvil | Drakeson: read the above page |
| 18:59.32 | SpeedEvil | the fundamentals one. |
| 18:59.35 | SpeedEvil | Tehy can sort-of |
| 18:59.46 | mjr | buz, I really really doubt they're gonna re-engineer it for GTA-02 in any case, and they've said as much in public |
| 19:00.05 | SpeedEvil | They would in addition need to wholly respin the PCB in many cases. |
| 19:00.16 | buz | not necessarily |
| 19:00.25 | SpeedEvil | Many, not all. |
| 19:00.26 | Elrond | I guess, that's why they plan "other devices". |
| 19:00.32 | buz | eliminating the hole or even adding a camera might be trivial |
| 19:00.33 | tuukkah | Elrond, don't remeber after the years, but perhaps http://www.fs.net/sfswww/sfs.html#Getting%20Started |
| 19:01.21 | Elrond | tuukkah - Thanks. *looking* |
| 19:01.33 | buz | heck even buttons wouldnt need a full pcb respin |
| 19:01.35 | mjr | "trivial" yeah, if you mean "trivial" as in you can do that if you have too much money and time to burn |
| 19:01.47 | Drakeson | The first thing I want to work on is sensing gestures, and gesture commands |
| 19:01.47 | SpeedEvil | Not full - partial at lrast thoughh. |
| 19:01.57 | buz | in that definition of trivial most things become trivial |
| 19:01.59 | SpeedEvil | Drakeson: it can pretty much do that. |
| 19:02.06 | Drakeson | I have been frustrated with what has been implemented |
| 19:02.31 | mjr | Drakeson, yes, gesture sensing will be important for the Neo killer app, lightsaber sounds |
| 19:02.45 | SpeedEvil | Drakeson: basically - it knows where down is in relation to the case very well. Any roll about the gravity axes is horribly inaccurate. |
| 19:02.51 | Kensan | buz: I think software is their first priority now. |
| 19:02.57 | SpeedEvil | Yo-yo simulator. |
| 19:03.13 | buz | Kensan: which is goo |
| 19:03.13 | buz | d |
| 19:03.15 | Drakeson | SpeedEvil: when does the next harrypotter get released? |
| 19:03.48 | buz | we so need the light saber app for gta02 |
| 19:04.08 | unknown_lamer | pinball with tilt cheating support |
| 19:04.10 | SpeedEvil | _needs_ hand-strap. |
| 19:04.10 | buz | gimme the wii gun addon anyday |
| 19:04.23 | SpeedEvil | buz: that'd need a IR cam |
| 19:04.27 | Kensan | buz: I guess it also depends on the efforts of the community if the consumer device can be shipped in 6 months... |
| 19:04.30 | CM | minime: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_Local_Groups is brilliant! And great work on the wiki in general :) |
| 19:04.34 | buz | hook up a neo to that so have some sort of radar :) |
| 19:04.41 | CM | thomasg_gpm: Sweet :) |
| 19:04.49 | Drakeson | only wand spells, and nothing more. that would be killer if released on time. |
| 19:04.53 | buz | Kensan: ideally, openmoko wants to get gta02 out the door ASAP |
| 19:04.59 | buz | even without consumer ready software |
| 19:05.07 | buz | so the community can develop on final hardware |
| 19:05.48 | buz | you might get away with simulating wifi in qemu, but surely not accels |
| 19:06.00 | SpeedEvil | I'm planning on adding accels to P1 |
| 19:06.05 | SpeedEvil | and selling it as a plugin kit |
| 19:06.15 | buz | well thats obviously not really realistic for most |
| 19:06.19 | SpeedEvil | Maybe $40-50 or so. |
| 19:06.25 | Kensan | buz: sure, but there's many other apps that are far more critical and need to be done. |
| 19:06.36 | SpeedEvil | Plugin to the debug port and battery. |
| 19:06.44 | SpeedEvil | Actually - no. |
| 19:06.51 | SpeedEvil | debug port and bluetooth USB port |
| 19:06.54 | buz | i think hardware is more important |
| 19:07.03 | SpeedEvil | IMO. |
| 19:07.06 | buz | you can fix software |
| 19:07.10 | SpeedEvil | Bad hardware isn't a good thing. |
| 19:07.14 | buz | hardware is much harder to fix |
| 19:07.30 | buz | besides hardware guys usually suck at software and vice versa |
| 19:07.32 | Elrond | *gigglg* "No caffeine was used in the original production of the SFS software." |
| 19:07.36 | SpeedEvil | Bad hardware would be something like the graphic accel chip being NDAd and FIC not having time. |
| 19:07.37 | jpcass | thats why its called hardware. |
| 19:08.06 | SpeedEvil | Not having time to develop all the features. |
| 19:08.06 | buz | no, bad hardware would be wifi sucking oodles of power |
| 19:08.20 | SpeedEvil | That too. |
| 19:08.21 | Kensan | buz: yes, but that will take time. Until then everybody should get their vims and emacs , etc read ;) |
| 19:08.40 | jpcass | there's a thread on the lists lobbying for GTA02 to be released as board-only so we can upgrade from 01 to get wifi, accel etc. without needing new screen, battery etc. |
| 19:09.11 | CM | jpcass: I want easyware, not hardware.. ;) |
| 19:09.23 | SpeedEvil | I want to be able to make a simple connection board to plug PSP LCDs into it. |
| 19:09.37 | jpcass | so long as there are stable interfaces/connectors it should be no problem. |
| 19:09.47 | jpcass | im a bit worried about the wifi aerial though. |
| 19:09.49 | *** join/#openmoko lextul (n=thomas@80.64.176.30) |
| 19:10.00 | SpeedEvil | In what way? |
| 19:10.09 | Drakeson | so if I want a few of the one with accels, and wait until october, may I get a prototype if it is delayed? |
| 19:10.17 | buz | whats that fetish of yours about psp parts |
| 19:10.28 | SpeedEvil | What do you mean may get a prototype? |
| 19:10.35 | jpcass | well its not there in GTA01 but will be needed in 02 - where does it go? it wont be on the board. and it'll need a new connector i guess |
| 19:10.51 | buz | there's space at the top |
| 19:10.59 | SpeedEvil | buz: They are cheap on ebay. |
| 19:11.00 | jedix | I thought swapping lcd's was really hard |
| 19:11.05 | SpeedEvil | jedix: it depends. |
| 19:11.10 | buz | yeah but WHY would one want them |
| 19:11.16 | Drakeson | something [almost] working but not necessarily polished |
| 19:11.45 | SpeedEvil | buz: It's a nice bright display. It's not very suitable for a PDA. But there are other apps. |
| 19:11.57 | buz | Drakeson: maybe if you come up with a very good reason for it |
| 19:12.02 | buz | like developping a killer app on it |
| 19:12.24 | buz | did sun get gta01 prototypes for that javafx demo, btw? |
| 19:12.27 | jpcass | unless wifi can use the same aerial as gsm? |
| 19:12.27 | SpeedEvil | Drakeson: It is very unlikely you will get phase2 hardware before Oct. |
| 19:12.48 | SpeedEvil | jpcass: it can use a seperate small one. |
| 19:13.05 | *** join/#openmoko SBKch (n=SBKch@088156224081.sta.vectranet.pl) |
| 19:13.07 | tuukkah | Drakeson, if i were you i'd order one p1 now to get started as soon as possible, then more of the p2 devices when they are ready |
| 19:13.12 | SpeedEvil | You really want to keep it away from bluetooth if you can. |
| 19:13.47 | *** join/#openmoko baze (n=baze@p57A67A12.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:13.53 | Drakeson | what is p1 or p2? |
| 19:15.04 | SpeedEvil | Currently available anbd October |
| 19:15.43 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck_ (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
| 19:15.55 | PBeck_ | re |
| 19:18.43 | *** join/#openmoko MrFeetio (n=david@c-71-230-5-247.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 19:22.49 | *** join/#openmoko gresh (n=christop@M5d1c.m.pppool.de) |
| 19:24.37 | Drakeson | I have to develop for a similar device, and among the current platforms I came here because it is open source. How does this community compare to the community around nokia770/800 |
| 19:24.37 | Drakeson | ? |
| 19:24.55 | jpcass | make qemu require gcc 3.x but doesnt download and build it, is that something we could put into a bitbake? |
| 19:25.09 | Drakeson | is openmoko more open source than the others? |
| 19:25.59 | mjr | in fact it is |
| 19:26.02 | Aria | It's open top to bottom, exceptions being the GPS daemon, for munitions-control law reasons |
| 19:26.03 | koen | Drakeson: the nokia tablets aren't opensource |
| 19:26.13 | koen | show me the code for *all* kernel modules and gui bits |
| 19:26.19 | buz | in some way, openmoko is the ONLY open source project |
| 19:26.43 | mjr | the agpsd is a tarnish, but hopefully replaceable |
| 19:26.59 | mjr | still, notably more open than maemo |
| 19:27.38 | jpcass | annoyingly my 770 had problems in power management, a module that was not open ;-( |
| 19:27.40 | galexande | yeah, i like the fact that we are open top-to-bottom and then you list exceptions |
| 19:27.46 | galexande | the maemo is closed top-to-bottom and then you list exceptions |
| 19:28.09 | galexande | well, i guess i mean the n770 |
| 19:28.21 | jpcass | then today i experienced the "white screen of death" |
| 19:28.34 | galexande | hahaha maybe the bsod will be my lock screen |
| 19:29.00 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@c-76-30-222-129.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 19:30.48 | Drakeson | is the hardware designed by the community as well? |
| 19:30.53 | mjr | plus, openmoko inc's attitude about openness is way more consistent than nokia's... |
| 19:30.57 | mjr | no |
| 19:31.27 | Aria | No, they're just making some really Neat Shit, and not fighting any openness in the design. |
| 19:31.29 | mjr | and make no mistake, openmoko inc is at the center of software development too, open as it is |
| 19:31.32 | Aria | No hiding debug points and all that. |
| 19:31.58 | tuukkah | Drakeson, hardware is documented: http://svnweb.openmoko.org/trunk/doc/hardware/ |
| 19:32.53 | MrFeetio | i hope GTA03 uses faster networks |
| 19:32.56 | buz | here's something for the omg fpga crowd http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7630000844.html |
| 19:34.09 | Aria | Wow. |
| 19:34.40 | *** join/#openmoko duplex (n=duplex@p57A852C1.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:36.15 | ynezz | nice price :p |
| 19:37.31 | *** join/#openmoko Tobi (n=tobi@p5B00743B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:37.41 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@141.80-202-161.nextgentel.com) |
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| 19:40.32 | *** join/#openmoko trivex (n=trivex@yukon.ncct.uottawa.ca) |
| 19:42.41 | jpcass | tuukkah: aahhh - the way it should be! http://www.johnkerry.plus.com/qemu-moko-screen.jpg |
| 19:43.04 | *** join/#openmoko gresh_ (n=christop@Mc28d.m.pppool.de) |
| 19:43.21 | tuukkah | =) |
| 19:44.01 | bkruse | qemu! |
| 19:45.20 | jpcass | its quite nice on desktop screen at least... |
| 19:46.51 | woglinde | re |
| 19:47.06 | mjr | dih dum, OpenMoko is booting in my little window |
| 19:48.08 | loufoque | MrFeetio: GTA03 should have UMTS |
| 19:48.26 | woglinde | loufoque why? |
| 19:48.32 | SpeedEvil | loufoque: I'd imagine it's more complex than that. |
| 19:48.40 | SpeedEvil | I't expect 03 to be several localised models |
| 19:48.56 | SpeedEvil | GSM + UTMS, GSM + .... |
| 19:49.24 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: the specs for the other devices will be announced when 02 is available right? |
| 19:49.31 | SpeedEvil | Who knows. |
| 19:49.34 | loufoque | !count |
| 19:49.46 | SpeedEvil | I think at this point that it's hard to assume. |
| 19:49.46 | MrFeetio | http://www.google.com/gmm/gps.html |
| 19:49.55 | summatusmentis | I thought that's what seans initial 'availability/sale' email said |
| 19:50.01 | *** join/#openmoko orzo652 (n=orzo@70.89.88.195) |
| 19:50.16 | SpeedEvil | Well - things change. |
| 19:50.21 | summatusmentis | true |
| 19:50.26 | SpeedEvil | It's been a long time since then. |
| 19:50.32 | SpeedEvil | And internal reorganisations. |
| 19:50.33 | summatusmentis | true |
| 19:50.57 | orzo652 | since what? |
| 19:50.58 | aloril | orzo652: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 19:51.11 | summatusmentis | oh right, I guess that could easily change things coupled with time and the changingness of things :-) |
| 19:51.14 | summatusmentis | I see your point |
| 19:51.15 | SpeedEvil | Practically - I've given up expecting them to hold to pronouncements made some time ago. |
| 19:51.24 | SpeedEvil | The next announce is about it. |
| 19:51.34 | summatusmentis | mm |
| 19:52.26 | SpeedEvil | I understand _why_ things change - but ... |
| 19:52.40 | summatusmentis | but what? |
| 19:53.19 | SpeedEvil | But expecting predictions made some time ago to hold as things change dramatically inside FIC is probably optimistic. |
| 19:53.44 | SpeedEvil | On the other hand, that could be good too. |
| 19:53.59 | summatusmentis | yeah, that's fair. I'm just impatient, and I like to have answers now. Then I sort of walk into a project where things are still moving pretty rapidly, and answers aren't available :-) |
| 19:54.22 | SpeedEvil | To a small extent this is the core team not communicating promptly. |
| 19:54.26 | summatusmentis | yeah, I'm hoping these changes inside of FIC help, rather than hinder, the process |
| 19:54.40 | SpeedEvil | To a larger one it's they don't know it. |
| 19:54.48 | summatusmentis | mm |
| 19:55.58 | *** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 19:56.38 | orzo652 | any new word on the phones? |
| 19:56.40 | PBeck | has anybody information about the status of gta_02? |
| 19:56.42 | jgm | Personally I'm not too worried about pre-announcements. I figure that the longer they have before they set things in stone the more chance they have of bringing out a cutting edge device |
| 19:56.53 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 19:57.08 | mmazur | The edge they're cutting is moving away, as time goes by. |
| 19:57.13 | mmazur | So it's not that simple. |
| 19:57.20 | jgm | Exactly |
| 19:57.36 | summatusmentis | jgm: true... at least personally, I'm locked into a cdma contract for another year and a half, so I like to look ahead :-) |
| 19:58.28 | jgm | The good news where I am (UK) is that I can stick with the contract but just use the Neo instead of my existing 'phone so I don't care so much about the contract |
| 19:58.35 | jgm | (Plus pay-as-you-go SIMs are very cheap) |
| 19:59.28 | jpcass | anyone know what web browser in being used in openmoko? |
| 19:59.53 | thomasg_gpm | nothing concrete planned |
| 20:00.14 | don-o | minimo comes up a lot. http://www.mozilla.org/projects/minimo/ |
| 20:00.14 | thomasg_gpm | maybe a port of minimo, maybe something webkit based (GdkLauncher) |
| 20:01.06 | thomasg_gpm | imho GdkLauncher looks promising, we'll see if it get's usable |
| 20:02.02 | jpcass | so the web app running in qemu is a place-holder? |
| 20:02.12 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_1aptop (n=ewanm89@host81-159-108-193.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) |
| 20:02.24 | don-o | gdklauncher is some sort of wrapper around webkit? |
| 20:03.31 | bkruse | we got the openmoko os running on qemu? why did I, for a second, think that was not possible? |
| 20:03.41 | *** join/#openmoko Tobi (n=tobi@p5B00743B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:03.55 | *** join/#openmoko guest (n=guest@adsl-64-161-117-110.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 20:04.03 | jpcass | its possible and its easy. mokomakefile and make qemu |
| 20:04.06 | don-o | bkruse: bad weed? :) |
| 20:04.13 | bkruse | don-o: ya, the hydro stuff :[ |
| 20:04.22 | bkruse | jpcass: great, its dev time, thank you |
| 20:04.34 | bkruse | does it bind to sound devices properly? i love qemu |
| 20:05.35 | SpeedEvil | jgm: I came across an ebay auction yesterday. 100 orange SIMs for 6 quid. |
| 20:05.44 | SpeedEvil | (needing activation of course) |
| 20:06.58 | bkruse | SpeedEvil: those would do you good? |
| 20:07.02 | bkruse | what do you plan on doing with em |
| 20:07.04 | bkruse | or, would |
| 20:07.18 | SpeedEvil | Err - no, they wouldn't be of much use. |
| 20:07.30 | SpeedEvil | You need to top them up with 10 quid before they will work. |
| 20:07.39 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@dyn-62-56-87-82.dslaccess.co.uk) |
| 20:07.54 | SpeedEvil | The only possible nice thing would be you stand a reasonable chance of getting a number that you can at least pick a couple of digits of. |
| 20:08.39 | don-o | 1973! |
| 20:14.04 | *** join/#openmoko Marex-notebook (n=marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 20:14.08 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@77.47.0.11.static.cablesurf.de) |
| 20:17.00 | jgm | Think you only see the number after it's been activated don't you? |
| 20:17.44 | jgm | Think Orange only charge £5 for activation (either them or T-Mobile, can't remember) but no idea how they handle data |
| 20:18.08 | high-rez | For activating what ? |
| 20:18.17 | jgm | SIM cards |
| 20:18.19 | high-rez | Adding your IMSI into the HLR? |
| 20:18.21 | high-rez | Ahh |
| 20:18.23 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Detroit]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[User:Tetraden]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Helsinki]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Gothenburg]] [[Wishlist:Neo1973_P1_Review]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_London]] and other changes |
| 20:18.53 | *** join/#openmoko Mat-eeX (i=Mat-eeX@aaho211.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 20:18.53 | PBeck | bye |
| 20:18.59 | *** part/#openmoko Mat-eeX (i=Mat-eeX@aaho211.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 20:19.02 | jgm | Would be nice if we could 'emulate' SIM cards in the software so we didn't need the physical items, no idea if that is allowable/legal or not though |
| 20:19.35 | high-rez | Well the security is certainly weak, you can certainly crack them (i have before). |
| 20:20.19 | high-rez | But I think that the GSM chip they're using has physical pinouts for the sim, so the chip itself (not the openmoko platform) would have to be changed. |
| 20:20.57 | mjr | yes, the sim is hooked to the proprietary GSM chip directly |
| 20:21.03 | *** join/#openmoko Marex_Yggdrasil (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 20:21.17 | tuukkah | out openmoko between the sim and the gsm chip :-) |
| 20:21.20 | jgm | Or you could link the SIM back to another input from the Neo but that's all beginning to sound too fiddly for me (I like a delete button with my hacks) |
| 20:21.24 | tuukkah | s/o/p/ |
| 20:21.33 | high-rez | tuukah: No it's not. |
| 20:21.36 | mjr | suppose one could redirect the sim pins somewhere else creatively... |
| 20:21.37 | high-rez | ohh |
| 20:21.58 | mjr | jgm, yeah |
| 20:22.14 | high-rez | i don't see what it would buy you. the beauty of gsm is that it's easy to move carriers, just grab a new sim if carrier a pisses you off. |
| 20:22.28 | mjr | *nod* |
| 20:22.29 | high-rez | (assuming you didn't buy a simlocked device) |
| 20:22.53 | mjr | SIMs are quite okay |
| 20:22.53 | mjr | high-rez, and of course, we don't |
| 20:22.56 | jgm | high-rez: multiple 'personalities' in the'phone |
| 20:23.18 | high-rez | jgm: Use a sim cloner, e.g. the 16 in 1 super sims. |
| 20:23.21 | *** join/#openmoko j4m3s (i=james@nat/digium/x-5e93b19f992e63ec) |
| 20:23.32 | *** join/#openmoko Sufflope_ (n=Sufflope@crj95-3-82-237-151-219.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 20:23.33 | jgm | Aha, didn't know they existed. Off to Google I go... |
| 20:23.46 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@dyn-62-56-87-82.dslaccess.co.uk) |
| 20:24.09 | high-rez | jgm: They exist, and they work. HOwever, to change between IMSI's, you have to use the software provided or have a device that supports the STK. |
| 20:24.18 | high-rez | (which at the moment, I don't believe openmoko does) |
| 20:26.28 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@141.80-202-161.nextgentel.com) |
| 20:27.10 | *** join/#openmoko trivex (n=trivex@yukon.ncct.uottawa.ca) |
| 20:30.27 | *** join/#openmoko gresh__ (n=christop@Me101.m.pppool.de) |
| 20:31.10 | *** join/#openmoko Chairboy_ (n=chatzill@c-24-22-81-82.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 20:31.29 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@dyn-62-56-87-82.dslaccess.co.uk) |
| 20:32.05 | orzo652 | can the phone read off whatever is needed on the sim chip and save it so you dont need the chip? |
| 20:32.20 | mjr | no |
| 20:32.32 | Elrond | Anyone seen ph5? |
| 20:32.33 | high-rez | no, the phone can't. the chip really can't even, it's encrypted on the chip. |
| 20:32.51 | *** join/#openmoko madewokherd (n=urk@c-71-206-249-157.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 20:33.17 | Elrond | orzo652 - The sim wont ever give out that info. |
| 20:33.30 | SpeedEvil | Unless you have the magic key. |
| 20:33.36 | SpeedEvil | (which only the network has) |
| 20:33.45 | high-rez | Well you can brute force the key. |
| 20:34.01 | high-rez | But some chips will lock up (brick) after so many wrong tries. |
| 20:34.29 | Elrond | I never looked at the used crypto. |
| 20:34.59 | *** join/#openmoko meus (n=bjartka@kremt.pvv.ntnu.no) |
| 20:35.48 | high-rez | it took me ~15 mins to brute force into my sim in order to copy it onto a multisim |
| 20:37.14 | Elrond | So in other words: The crypto is straight bad. |
| 20:37.47 | orzo652 | it uses 128bit key |
| 20:38.04 | mjr | but? |
| 20:38.08 | Elrond | Well, 128bit is good, but the rest seems bad. |
| 20:38.20 | *** join/#openmoko gyaresu (n=gyaresu@ppp121-44-212-102.lns1.hba1.internode.on.net) |
| 20:38.28 | *** part/#openmoko meus (n=bjartka@kremt.pvv.ntnu.no) |
| 20:38.45 | mjr | or is it 128-bit rsa? :] |
| 20:38.54 | mjr | (no, I don't know anything about sim security either) |
| 20:39.41 | Drakeson | I checked with #maemo as well. I think openmoko is the way to go. |
| 20:40.35 | Drakeson | in order to get me started until [hopefully] october that the device with accels gets ready, I should know about the development environment. |
| 20:41.03 | woglinde | drakeson ;) |
| 20:41.05 | mjr | which is available as of wasit March |
| 20:41.06 | Drakeson | is the platform debian-based? |
| 20:41.14 | mjr | openembedded-based |
| 20:41.20 | woglinde | no openembedded |
| 20:41.41 | Drakeson | what is the package management system then? |
| 20:41.59 | woglinde | ipkg |
| 20:42.11 | woglinde | which is derivated from dpkg |
| 20:43.19 | orzo652 | Drakeson what do you want to do with the accels |
| 20:43.40 | mjr | he's already been advised of limitations :] |
| 20:44.25 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 20:44.28 | Drakeson | I want to play with them and find which one of my imaginations can be turned into reality. (actually that will form my grad research) |
| 20:45.24 | Drakeson | is it hard to set up the development environment on my debian machine? |
| 20:45.31 | mjr | shouldn't |
| 20:45.45 | mjr | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile |
| 20:45.45 | Drakeson | (i.e., do most people do it on debian?) |
| 20:46.43 | Drakeson | thanks |
| 20:52.13 | orzo652 | i want to play with them too |
| 20:52.28 | *** join/#openmoko gresh (n=christop@Me101.m.pppool.de) |
| 20:52.48 | orzo652 | there should be some cheap accelerometer toys available for hackers to play with |
| 20:53.06 | orzo652 | maybe the gumstick people will make them |
| 20:53.10 | *** join/#openmoko ruimoreir1 (n=rmoreira@87-196-25-73.net.novis.pt) |
| 20:54.38 | *** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=orion@59.176.111.177) |
| 20:55.19 | don-o | orzo652: sparkfun.com should keep you busy :) |
| 20:56.13 | *** join/#openmoko holycow (n=hello@mail.wjsgroup.com) |
| 20:56.20 | holycow | hello fello mokoers :) |
| 20:56.36 | SpeedEvil | Wiimote also. |
| 20:56.45 | holycow | okay can the dev devices you can buy now be used to make calls? |
| 20:56.48 | SpeedEvil | You can use the wiimote and bluetoot to test accels. |
| 20:56.51 | SpeedEvil | The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. |
| 20:57.02 | holycow | lol! |
| 20:57.26 | holycow | SpeedEvil, aha okay, so if i want to be able to use it, wait until the sept release |
| 20:57.26 | SpeedEvil | The dialer should get better rapidly in a couple of weeks after the phones arrive I'd imagine. |
| 20:57.29 | empty_mind | i think youu can make a phone call. Harald and sean did demosnstrate a call |
| 20:57.35 | SpeedEvil | Basicallyu holycow, yes. |
| 20:57.42 | Fatal | actually, I'm _EXCITED_ about a phone I can't call with :) |
| 20:57.48 | SpeedEvil | empty_mind: making a call and actually being a usable phone are a bit differenet. |
| 20:57.56 | don-o | ive read that receiving a call is more adventurous. |
| 20:58.10 | holycow | aha okay thats no problem, i'm not a real programmer but i would like to be able to make calls and then start fooling around with python on it |
| 20:58.20 | Fatal | I'm glad if I don't have to recieve calls aswell :) |
| 20:58.32 | holycow | would be cool to use moko as a remote |
| 20:58.35 | holycow | :) |
| 20:58.42 | don-o | gah. "Insanity" is still the lead planet post. moko devels need to blog more. |
| 20:58.44 | empty_mind | holycow: well i am already fooling around with python on it |
| 20:58.51 | *** join/#openmoko V0sen[nL]` (n=v0@86-63-84-163.asta-net.com.pl) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 20:58.51 | *** join/#openmoko Hadaka (i=naked@naked.iki.fi) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 20:58.51 | *** join/#openmoko stefan_schmidt (n=stefan@datenfreihafen.org) |
| 20:59.05 | holycow | empty_mind, yeah? cool! which version does it ship with if at all? |
| 20:59.10 | don-o | Fatal: haha. so that is a feature? |
| 20:59.20 | don-o | holycow: i asked that on the list. no answer. |
| 20:59.28 | Fatal | don-o: If I replace my work phone with the neo, YES |
| 20:59.37 | holycow | ah k. no biggie just curious |
| 20:59.41 | empty_mind | holnone, we are working on python run faster on the device |
| 20:59.55 | holycow | Fatal, you dial out on it? incoming calls ui works? |
| 21:00.21 | empty_mind | s/ holnone/ holycow none |
| 21:00.25 | Fatal | holycow: I wouldn't know |
| 21:00.46 | holycow | empty_mind, cool! |
| 21:01.00 | holycow | Fatal, danke. |
| 21:02.24 | *** join/#openmoko V0sen[nL]` (n=v0@86-63-84-163.asta-net.com.pl) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:02.24 | *** join/#openmoko Hadaka (i=naked@naked.iki.fi) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:02.24 | *** join/#openmoko stefan_schmidt (n=stefan@datenfreihafen.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:06.15 | don-o | holycow: sometime next week a couple hundred people (at least) will have the moko and there will be lots of reports. |
| 21:06.38 | holycow | oh right i forgot, it actually takes TIME to ship this stuff |
| 21:06.54 | holycow | :) lol i'm so naiive |
| 21:06.54 | holycow | well just excited |
| 21:07.00 | don-o | heh. i think customs is the big question at the moment. |
| 21:07.11 | SpeedEvil | US peeps first prolly |
| 21:07.15 | holycow | *mmhmm* there is that |
| 21:07.24 | summatusmentis | customs-- |
| 21:07.34 | summatusmentis | it took forever for my Zaurus to come from japan because of them |
| 21:07.49 | SpeedEvil | Bastards confiscated a shipment of laser pointers to me. |
| 21:07.55 | ruimoreir1 | has any of you guys received the email with your order status ? |
| 21:07.55 | summatusmentis | really? |
| 21:07.56 | SpeedEvil | Because they were allegedly 5.03mW |
| 21:08.07 | SpeedEvil | with 5mW being the safety limit. |
| 21:08.08 | don-o | SpeedEvil: clearly military grade :) |
| 21:08.12 | SpeedEvil | 'for the public good'. |
| 21:08.21 | Psi | SpeedEvil, what kind of laser pointers? |
| 21:08.23 | summatusmentis | yeah, well, stop trying to bend the rules :-) |
| 21:08.26 | SpeedEvil | red ones. |
| 21:08.34 | SpeedEvil | 10 of. |
| 21:08.36 | Psi | yeah, but 1W or 1mW ? etc |
| 21:08.55 | holycow | summatusmentis, i just ordered a umpc from japan, i expect for it to take forewer to get through customs too |
| 21:09.02 | *** join/#openmoko gresh_ (n=christop@M5713.m.pppool.de) |
| 21:09.22 | Psi | oh, hehe |
| 21:09.35 | summatusmentis | holycow: yeah, mine took quite a while |
| 21:09.41 | holycow | SpeedEvil, i had no idea customs actually had a clue about anything |
| 21:09.43 | Psi | guess i shouldnt skim read irc |
| 21:09.47 | holycow | how can they look up stuff like that? |
| 21:10.00 | SpeedEvil | holycow: Laser pointers were big news at the time. |
| 21:10.05 | SpeedEvil | They were cracking down. |
| 21:10.07 | Fatal | holycow: they don't employ first grade students |
| 21:10.11 | holycow | heh weird |
| 21:10.48 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@62-50-199-121.client.stsn.net) |
| 21:11.02 | *** join/#openmoko switch3r (n=switch3r@dsktop.student.umd.edu) |
| 21:15.38 | *** join/#openmoko kaps (n=kapil@122.162.142.117) |
| 21:17.42 | gcb77 | ruimoreir1: I haven't heard of anyone getting confirmation yet... see the wiki (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1_FAQ#I.27ve_ordered_several_days_ago_and_received_no_confirmation_that_the_order_was_accepted._Is_this_ok.3F_Will_I_still_get_a_phone.3F) |
| 21:20.10 | ruimoreir1 | gcb77: sorry ... i think you understand all the excitment that we all (all think i am not the only one) are going through |
| 21:20.11 | ruimoreir1 | :P |
| 21:20.36 | ruimoreir1 | ruimoreir1: whishes to ibernate :D |
| 21:20.44 | *** join/#openmoko some1__ (n=some1@p54A0E33B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:20.46 | gcb77 | ruimoreir1: lol, you're telling me... I've been checking my e-mail every 5 minutes since Sunday when I placed the order |
| 21:20.55 | ruimoreir1 | ;) |
| 21:21.06 | ruimoreir1 | we all want our phones to be free :P |
| 21:21.39 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_laptop (n=ewanm89@host86-151-100-122.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) |
| 21:21.51 | ruimoreir1 | good thinkg :D .... i think that project Openmoko will be very good in the future :D |
| 21:23.00 | jgm | Right I've done my bit for the night, managed to build a dev environment with telepathy/mission-control/empathy. I'll see if I can get some time to actually understand them at the weekend to see if they will be able to handle the messaging requirements |
| 21:23.28 | ruimoreir1 | jgm what linux distro do you use ? |
| 21:23.35 | jgm | ubuntu (on a vm) |
| 21:23.41 | ruimoreir1 | thks |
| 21:24.01 | don-o | i expect a parallel open source project to pop up at some point. |
| 21:24.08 | don-o | people who dont like the gtk approach for instance. |
| 21:24.12 | don-o | could be fun :) |
| 21:24.37 | summatusmentis | don-o: a parallel project to what? |
| 21:24.40 | ruimoreir1 | if one of you gents was able to compile a dev environment under fedora 7 please tell me how ..... plzzzzzzzzz |
| 21:24.48 | Aria | jgm: Ping me on that -- I do a lot of close watching of telepathy related thigns |
| 21:25.02 | jgm | Aria: willdo |
| 21:25.19 | don-o | summatusmentis: an alternative to openmoko that runs on the neo |
| 21:25.38 | *** join/#openmoko gresh__ (n=christop@Md224.m.pppool.de) |
| 21:25.39 | don-o | is the neo part of 1973 taken directly from The Matrix or is that a coincidence? |
| 21:25.39 | jgm | (pah great example of why we need to fix messaging, I can't tag you with a note or anything from here so have to rely on my brain, which isn't a great strategy) |
| 21:25.46 | summatusmentis | don-o: oh... well, there was talk of a qt based one |
| 21:25.55 | summatusmentis | don-o: neo == new |
| 21:26.00 | woglinde | opieII? |
| 21:26.02 | woglinde | *g* |
| 21:26.11 | jgm | And 1973 was the first mobile phone I think |
| 21:26.13 | don-o | summatusmentis: the netbsd people will probably make their own party at some point |
| 21:26.14 | Aria | Yeah |
| 21:26.25 | woglinde | or >e17? |
| 21:26.25 | *** join/#openmoko r4kY (n=Ladder_@ws42127.studby.hig.no) |
| 21:27.14 | jgm | 'night |
| 21:27.26 | galexande | i want my neo |
| 21:27.31 | summatusmentis | don-o: netbsd? there's openbsd on the Z |
| 21:27.36 | galexande | i suppose i could start developing some of the UI using my ipaq for usability testing |
| 21:28.02 | *** part/#openmoko jgm (n=jgm@host-87-74-179-156.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 21:28.02 | summatusmentis | woglinde: I think e17 is at least being explored |
| 21:28.06 | *** join/#openmoko Mark__T (n=mark@p50822FC4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 21:28.22 | woglinde | summatusmentis no really true mickeyl did a lot with even in the past |
| 21:28.29 | ruimoreir1 | galexande: same here .... snif snifff |
| 21:28.55 | summatusmentis | woglinde: oh, ok |
| 21:29.00 | summatusmentis | I stand corrected |
| 21:29.51 | *** join/#openmoko schurig_home (n=schurig@p54B28F4D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 21:30.26 | ruimoreir1 | galexande: remember our conversation yesterday ? |
| 21:30.38 | ruimoreir1 | where i couldn't build the devel environment ? |
| 21:30.47 | ruimoreir1 | the problem is ncurses |
| 21:31.53 | sixfeet | be-root |
| 21:36.17 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 21:36.52 | *** join/#openmoko p4tux (n=p4tux@189.169.78.75) |
| 21:41.18 | galexande | ruimor, i don't think i had any trouble with ncurses, so i can't help :) |
| 21:42.18 | *** join/#openmoko yveslu (n=yves@194.235.200.24) |
| 21:42.19 | ruimoreir1 | k |
| 21:42.21 | ruimoreir1 | thks |
| 21:44.22 | *** part/#openmoko yveslu (n=yves@194.235.200.24) |
| 21:47.48 | *** join/#openmoko sixfeet (i=sixfeet@p5484E13F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:48.26 | *** join/#openmoko gresh_ (n=christop@M5f8d.m.pppool.de) |
| 21:50.52 | CoreDump|home | hi |
| 21:51.58 | *** part/#openmoko kaps (n=kapil@122.162.142.117) |
| 21:52.04 | *** join/#openmoko MacNorth (n=daijobu@c-75-71-250-33.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 21:52.32 | TimRiker | neo still not planned to do EDGE etc, right? |
| 21:53.06 | galexande | not any announced plans, no |
| 21:53.27 | *** join/#openmoko mdt (n=mdt@littlelun.emdete.de) |
| 21:53.54 | woglinde | what you all have with edge and umts |
| 21:54.07 | SpeedEvil | and all the frequencies. |
| 21:54.23 | ferric | edge isn't significantly faster than gprs, is it? |
| 21:54.31 | woglinde | no |
| 21:54.35 | SpeedEvil | Several times faster |
| 21:54.42 | SpeedEvil | at most |
| 21:54.45 | woglinde | and roundtrip time is the same |
| 21:54.49 | woglinde | so what |
| 21:54.51 | ferric | gprs is 0kb/sec where as edge is 170? |
| 21:55.02 | ferric | er, 50kb/sec now 0 |
| 21:55.05 | ferric | er, not 0 |
| 21:55.26 | woglinde | ferric yes If not serval other people use it at the same time |
| 21:56.11 | *** join/#openmoko malsyned (n=dpl@c-71-234-204-128.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) |
| 21:56.15 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 21:57.06 | MrFeetio | gprs/edge speed diminish if you travel at high speeds right?(car) |
| 21:57.48 | ferric | the first thing i'm gonna do is get a high speed evdo usb dongle |
| 21:58.00 | SpeedEvil | As you approach lightspeed, your local clock slows down, so it only appears slower. |
| 21:58.12 | ferric | lol SpeedEvil |
| 21:58.29 | ferric | is MakeMokoFile the right way to start getting openmoko and toolchains, etc along with qemu¿ |
| 21:59.20 | galexande | ferric, it sure is a convenient way |
| 21:59.22 | *** join/#openmoko mafeu (i=d9bbc36e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-6c60f89f50f87b58) |
| 21:59.35 | galexande | considering how much overwork it does, it is really pretty slick and snappy :) |
| 22:00.14 | ferric | lol |
| 22:00.15 | ferric | ok |
| 22:00.38 | ferric | gotta get rid of freebsd and move back to ubuntu and setup MakeMoko then. |
| 22:01.58 | thomasg_gpm | openmoko is building since 5 hours or so here :) |
| 22:02.31 | *** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21) |
| 22:02.45 | TimRiker | no camera either, correct? |
| 22:02.54 | thomasg_gpm | correct |
| 22:03.43 | don-o | thomasg_gpm: yup. took me about 8 hours. |
| 22:03.44 | TimRiker | and no usb host, just client, yes? is the client usb 2.0 ? |
| 22:03.55 | malsyned | TimRiker: usb host and client. |
| 22:04.02 | SpeedEvil | 1.1 |
| 22:04.09 | SpeedEvil | faq? |
| 22:04.10 | aloril | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ |
| 22:04.11 | galexande | unpowered host |
| 22:04.42 | malsyned | galexande: that means most webcams wouldn't work with it, right? because they get all their juice from the USB bus? |
| 22:04.55 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 22:05.02 | galexande | yeah, you'di have to add +5v from soamewhere |
| 22:05.05 | SpeedEvil | It'd need a external power thingy |
| 22:05.11 | SpeedEvil | TimRiker: the wiki |
| 22:05.13 | thomasg_gpm | ferric, edge can be much faster than gprs. gprs is up to 60kb/s, edge up tu 380kb/s (practical up to 200) |
| 22:05.18 | Elrond | Hmm, noone triggered a build on buildhost in a week. Interesting. |
| 22:05.30 | malsyned | I suppose you *could* use any USB device, as long as you had a powered hub between the neo and the device. |
| 22:05.45 | galexande | timriker, i think it is a clear demonstration of what happens when kernel hackers and so on write ecommerce :) |
| 22:05.57 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 22:06.05 | don-o | malsyned: but then there was a bit on the mailing list about usb hubs being confused by an unpowered host |
| 22:06.27 | ruimoreir1 | guys i can't compile the mokomakefile .... should i try and build from scratch ? |
| 22:06.36 | don-o | ruimoreir1: heeck no |
| 22:06.43 | ruimoreir1 | k |
| 22:06.49 | malsyned | don-o: is that a kind of confusion that you're likely to run into, or does it just affect specific hub models? |
| 22:07.00 | don-o | ruimoreir1: i mean the mokomakefile is the easy way. if thats not working ,the hard way isnt going to be better. although i havent done the hard way myself. |
| 22:07.04 | thomasg_gpm | problem with building openmoko: what could that be? http://phpfi.com/249576 |
| 22:07.24 | SpeedEvil | malsyned: The Belkin USB tetrahub for example doesn't. |
| 22:07.26 | don-o | malsyned: i got the feeling it was likely as people were talking about hacking up usb cables. |
| 22:07.40 | SpeedEvil | And a no-name hub that I have doesn't. |
| 22:07.47 | woglinde | thomasg_gpm its in the moko faq for build failure |
| 22:07.53 | SpeedEvil | It's a minor cable mod generally though |
| 22:07.53 | woglinde | wiki |
| 22:07.55 | ruimoreir1 | don-o: i can't figure out the error what o was thinking about as ... doing it step by step to try and catch the thing ;) |
| 22:07.59 | thomasg_gpm | woglinde, ah, k, sry. thx :) |
| 22:08.09 | malsyned | SpeedEvil: doesn't get confused, or doesn't work? |
| 22:08.10 | woglinde | thomasg_gpm and discussed here and in oe serval times |
| 22:08.59 | galexande | ruimore, just do whatever qucik hack gets the current step to proceed (however you want to figure that out), then you can get it going again and ignore it for another 4 hours :) |
| 22:10.24 | SpeedEvil | malsyned: doesn't work. |
| 22:10.52 | SpeedEvil | malsyned: doesn't recognise the host until it supplies 5V |
| 22:10.57 | SpeedEvil | The host |
| 22:11.10 | ruimoreir1 | sorry for mentioning my problem all the time ..... btw |
| 22:11.27 | galexande | speed, so just open it up and make a jumper from the hub's power supply to the input +5V :) |
| 22:11.28 | SpeedEvil | np, eventually ou may find someone with a clue. |
| 22:11.31 | malsyned | that's surprising. I wonder if it's a problem with the USB standard or with some ubiquitous USB hub chip. |
| 22:11.45 | galexande | put a resistor on it so it doesn't draw a lot of current if they're both supplying +5V |
| 22:11.46 | SpeedEvil | malsyned: the Neo violates the USB standard. |
| 22:11.57 | SpeedEvil | malsyned: hosts should be powered. |
| 22:12.06 | thomasg_gpm | woglinde can't find anything (except this dash thing) in the wiki. can you give me a link please? |
| 22:12.16 | SpeedEvil | malsyned: to at least 100mA. |
| 22:12.41 | woglinde | thomasg hm let me see |
| 22:13.00 | malsyned | ah. well that explains it. |
| 22:13.15 | *** join/#openmoko weezlaptop (n=weez@24-155-228-7.dyn.grandenetworks.net) |
| 22:13.18 | orzo652 | wasnt there talk of a special cable to turn the neo into a powered host? |
| 22:13.27 | galexande | thomas, you're experiencing that problem? do you have a /usr/include/asm/page.h on your host computer? |
| 22:13.28 | malsyned | Is it worth getting out the soldering iron, or would it just drain the battery too fast? |
| 22:13.39 | TimRiker | my wishlist is for a proper usb 2.0 otg connection on the next rev. :) |
| 22:13.43 | galexande | orzo, yeah it's not a difficult hack |
| 22:14.35 | TimRiker | orzo: there are similar cables for the nokia 770 and n800 around. I'd expect they would work on the neo too. |
| 22:14.59 | TimRiker | same issue. it's a client that will do un-powered host if you insist on it. |
| 22:15.14 | galexande | is the neo's mini-usb connector standard at all? (my guess is no) |
| 22:15.15 | TimRiker | s/client/device/ |
| 22:15.49 | TimRiker | galexande: yes. standard mini-b? device connector from what I've read. |
| 22:15.59 | woglinde | thomasg hm |
| 22:16.00 | galexande | nice |
| 22:16.09 | woglinde | I tought it was in there |
| 22:16.16 | TimRiker | again, same as the nokia tablets, many phones, etc. |
| 22:16.31 | *** join/#openmoko Jason1 (n=ws1@c-24-15-3-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 22:17.23 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[BuggyOrders]] [[User:Micktaiwan]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Current_events]] [[IMEI]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Madrid]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Warsaw]] [[Digital_gaming]] |
| 22:19.08 | woglinde | thomasg hm its kernel headers you have to do symlink by your self |
| 22:20.54 | *** part/#openmoko mafeu (i=d9bbc36e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-6c60f89f50f87b58) |
| 22:21.00 | *** join/#openmoko broedje (n=hellvis@p54B116E8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 22:22.23 | MrFeetio | so who would buy this? |
| 22:22.23 | MrFeetio | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Digital_gaming#Interest |
| 22:23.01 | CM | MrFeetio: Nice mock up :) |
| 22:23.09 | MrFeetio | its not mine |
| 22:23.21 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 22:23.26 | CM | Ok. Wonder how they plan to connect the buttons |
| 22:24.07 | MrFeetio | how hard would it be |
| 22:24.17 | MrFeetio | i assume there are extra pins on the mobo |
| 22:24.43 | galexande | multi-touch is the future :( |
| 22:24.55 | woglinde | we will see |
| 22:25.32 | orzo | hm |
| 22:25.33 | *** join/#openmoko sandos (n=sandos@83.233.97.210) |
| 22:25.38 | MrFeetio | i agree |
| 22:25.58 | MrFeetio | thats kinda random |
| 22:26.03 | MrFeetio | just to say that |
| 22:27.34 | don-o | TimRiker: otg ftw |
| 22:29.43 | malsyned | does Linux have otg support? |
| 22:30.25 | MrFeetio | otg? |
| 22:30.39 | Vegar | on the go |
| 22:30.42 | TimRiker | malsyned: yes. I've got a number of dev boards that do full otg. cable switching and software request switching all supported. |
| 22:31.01 | TimRiker | 2.0 spec for host and client, etc. |
| 22:31.27 | malsyned | nice. is that a feature of the USB chipset? |
| 22:31.37 | TimRiker | well, a chipset, yes. |
| 22:32.16 | malsyned | so you wouldn't be able to hack support for OTG into the Neo1973 in software. |
| 22:32.16 | TimRiker | for most cpus you need to add external support logic to comply with the otg specs. the samsung appears to be one of those. |
| 22:33.04 | TimRiker | hmm. you'd need to add the support chips and tie into a (non-existant?) 5v power source. ie: it would be non-trivial. |
| 22:33.09 | *** join/#openmoko mafeu (n=mafeu@brmn-d9bbc36e.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 22:33.37 | TimRiker | and the drivers would not find what they expect on other neos, so you'd likely break normal usb support. |
| 22:34.06 | TimRiker | oh.. and the bootloader firmware upgrade would break too as it would need to know about the new chips too. |
| 22:36.59 | TimRiker | much rather have the bootloader be a usb-serial device and take xmodem or similar uploads if needed. DFU is much more limiting. |
| 22:38.29 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@213.155.227.226) |
| 22:38.59 | SpeedEvil | In what way? |
| 22:40.15 | TimRiker | in what way what? |
| 22:40.22 | TimRiker | is it more limiting? |
| 22:40.27 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 22:40.46 | TimRiker | if you used the u-boot usb-serial mode then you have a bootloader prompt. |
| 22:41.12 | SpeedEvil | I'm planning on putting security in there. |
| 22:41.14 | TimRiker | you an upload or download firmware, sure, but you can also set kernel parameters, tell it to copy to/from sd card, etc. |
| 22:41.17 | SpeedEvil | Maybe require hashed images. |
| 22:41.30 | SpeedEvil | rdev-like would be a hack |
| 22:41.43 | hozer | hashed and/or cryptographically signed images.. |
| 22:41.44 | SpeedEvil | Can't you do that over usb-serial anyway |
| 22:41.51 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 22:42.01 | TimRiker | not the u-boot you can't at present, right? |
| 22:42.09 | SpeedEvil | I thought you could. |
| 22:42.14 | SpeedEvil | I haven't looked at the source. |
| 22:42.18 | hozer | TimRiker: did you order one yet? ;) |
| 22:42.19 | TimRiker | u-boot just enumerates as a DFU now, no? |
| 22:42.20 | SpeedEvil | It's just what was implied by comments |
| 22:42.39 | SpeedEvil | I thought you could use it as a serial console too. |
| 22:42.48 | TimRiker | hozer: having issues with those-who-should-pay-for-it. :) it's just a matter of time. |
| 22:42.51 | galexande | yeah i've heard usbtty |
| 22:42.57 | SpeedEvil | I need to look at the source at some point. |
| 22:43.06 | SpeedEvil | It tends to help with adding features :) |
| 22:43.13 | galexande | speed, i hope you got the debug board |
| 22:43.16 | TimRiker | from what I read, you can talk to userspace with usb-tty, but not u-boot. |
| 22:43.17 | hozer | would there be any reason it couldn't enumerate as both DFU and a usbtty/serial device? |
| 22:43.35 | galexande | tim, there is definitely a usb console with uboot, but you might have to do something zany to turn it on |
| 22:43.39 | SpeedEvil | galexande: Actually not - I'll stall on deving on u-boot till I either get one, or make one. |
| 22:43.41 | galexande | hozer, beats me |
| 22:43.43 | TimRiker | if you can talk to u-boot over usb-serial, then you don't need DFU at all. |
| 22:43.55 | SpeedEvil | DFU is a standard. |
| 22:43.58 | SpeedEvil | Standards are good. |
| 22:44.02 | SpeedEvil | In theory. |
| 22:44.06 | galexande | so is z-modem :) |
| 22:44.14 | SpeedEvil | x-modem! |
| 22:44.17 | hozer | standards are only good if many people use them |
| 22:44.19 | galexande | kermit! |
| 22:44.20 | TimRiker | usb-serial is a much broader standard. and xmodem, or kermit even. etc. |
| 22:44.34 | SpeedEvil | Broader can be bad. |
| 22:44.44 | malsyned | So, do user processes run as root on OpenMoko? |
| 22:44.51 | SpeedEvil | The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. |
| 22:44.58 | TimRiker | DFU is a practically unused standard that only addresses one need. ie: firmware upload/download. not things like setting kernel options etc. |
| 22:45.00 | galexande | malsyned, choose your own adventure |
| 22:45.07 | SpeedEvil | I'd say decisions as to what runs as what is later. |
| 22:45.14 | hozer | so given an unused DFU standard, vs relatively simple usbtty code.. I'd say use usbtty |
| 22:45.18 | SpeedEvil | TimRiker: rdev |
| 22:45.18 | galexande | i guess if my ipaq was on the iddernet, i wouldn't run everything as root with no pw :) |
| 22:45.39 | malsyned | galexande: then I'll rephrase: will the default suite of user applications in the mass-market release of the Neo1973 version of OpenMoko be running as root? |
| 22:45.47 | TimRiker | SpeedEvil: don't know what you mean by rdev. |
| 22:45.50 | SpeedEvil | galexande: Eventually. I want to see OM running all process as user |
| 22:46.02 | galexande | malsyned, once several people have chosen their adventure, we'll find out |
| 22:46.03 | SpeedEvil | galexande: but I'm not anyone official. |
| 22:46.25 | SpeedEvil | TimRiker: rdev was/is a method of setting magic bytes in the kernel to set a boot device. |
| 22:46.31 | TimRiker | maemo runs everything as user "user". this seems a Good Thing. |
| 22:46.32 | galexande | speed, i think it mostly depends on whether people make it work... i mean, OE supports users right? |
| 22:46.42 | *** part/#openmoko Tobi (n=tobi@p5B00743B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:47.05 | *** join/#openmoko nibbo (i=nibbo@blinkenshell.org) |
| 22:47.07 | TimRiker | SpeedEvil: ugh... that old thing? so to turn on/off my serial console you suggest I need to reflash a kernel? nice. |
| 22:47.12 | galexande | hahaha hozer |
| 22:47.13 | malsyned | I think it's probably a good idea if the answer winds up being 'no'. this is basically an Internet-connected Linux box. running arbitrary network-aware applications as root is asking to bring trouble to your door. with the resulting bad PR for the platform. |
| 22:47.25 | malsyned | "Oh, don't get one of those open phones, they're so easy to hack!" |
| 22:47.31 | SpeedEvil | TimRiker: no - I was meaning misuse DFU to send arbitrary images, some of which are magic. |
| 22:47.45 | TimRiker | SpeedEvil: ugh... |
| 22:48.04 | SpeedEvil | Ideally. I might even want to have my phone with a 'guest' account - accessible through the screensaver. |
| 22:48.28 | SpeedEvil | Which can for example queue outgoing texts/emails, play games, ... |
| 22:48.30 | hozer | SpeedEvil: yeah.. or log into your phone with a two-factor authentication system like a cryptocard ;) |
| 22:48.31 | galexande | it would suck if you hook up the neo to someone else's pc to charge and his ipod updater reflashes your rom |
| 22:48.46 | TimRiker | that's another thing... on some embedded devices I've done, I put the kernel inside the filesystem. this and no initrd means you have 3 flash partitions. bootloader, parameters for bootloader, and rootfs. |
| 22:49.16 | SpeedEvil | TimRiker: kernel has to go inside filesystem, it can't be raw in NAND |
| 22:49.16 | TimRiker | then as long as you don't brick things you can do all updates in userspace. including adding multiple kernels. |
| 22:49.24 | SpeedEvil | TimRiker: as NAND has bit errors. |
| 22:49.45 | TimRiker | right. but currently it's is a _different_ filesystem, yes? |
| 22:49.49 | SpeedEvil | well - filesystem/with bootloader that knows where it is. |
| 22:49.51 | SpeedEvil | AIUI, yes. |
| 22:49.51 | galexande | jffs2 |
| 22:50.07 | SpeedEvil | I'm doubtful. |
| 22:50.16 | TimRiker | hozer: not on any hardware I've dealt with. |
| 22:50.25 | SpeedEvil | XIP is technically impossible in this case. |
| 22:50.28 | TimRiker | it is faster to boot, yes, but then slower on runtime. |
| 22:50.46 | SpeedEvil | The NAND can't have code executed from it IIRC |
| 22:50.56 | TimRiker | and would require expensive hacked up support logic to get it working on nand. |
| 22:50.57 | SpeedEvil | I may be wrong on this. |
| 22:51.04 | hozer | compressed jffs2 files as backing store would probably be better |
| 22:51.27 | TimRiker | SpeedEvil: base nand can't. there are nand chips that add support logic to allow it though. |
| 22:51.49 | TimRiker | see DOC for a lame, pricey example. |
| 22:52.55 | TimRiker | putting the kernel and userspace in the same fs makes better use of the flash as you only need one erase pool, and you can have larger or smaller kernels and more that one kernel if you like. |
| 22:53.17 | SpeedEvil | I'd prefer seperate partitions. |
| 22:53.32 | SpeedEvil | It makes logic to utterly disallow writes to that partition in kernel simpler. |
| 22:53.36 | TimRiker | this of course supposes that you can get to u-boot somehow to select a kernel. something that DFU does not offer. |
| 22:54.08 | SpeedEvil | With a signed kernel, and u-boot requiring a new signed image to upgrade... |
| 22:54.13 | TimRiker | SpeedEvil: and it wastes space. and inevitably you will run out of space with a dev kernel, |
| 22:54.35 | TimRiker | and you'll have users that flash only one and find that the modules won't load, and.... etc. |
| 22:54.36 | SpeedEvil | Boot from SD |
| 22:54.51 | *** join/#openmoko Lusitanian (n=abc@bl4-187-43.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 22:55.18 | TimRiker | SpeedEvil: which again, I would want usb-serial to uboot to configure... |
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| 22:55.38 | *** join/#openmoko MickTaiwan (n=mick@lan31-6-82-238-147-130.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 22:55.41 | *** part/#openmoko Lusitanian (n=abc@bl4-187-43.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 22:56.05 | hozer | the package manager should be able to upgrade a kernel |
| 22:56.16 | TimRiker | there's not a lot of point in requiring a signed kernel, and NOT requiring signed kernel modules. |
| 22:56.34 | hozer | if you want to block writing a new kernel, you need to block writes to the root FS as well |
| 22:56.40 | TimRiker | it's a simple matter to add a new mtd driver that will let you flash anything. |
| 22:56.53 | SpeedEvil | Well - I was more meaning signed kernel and base image. |
| 22:57.20 | TimRiker | gee wouldn't it be nice if that was just one signed fs image then? |
| 22:57.39 | hozer | I would say ideally, anything running as root should be in a single partition and/or signed image |
| 22:57.42 | SpeedEvil | To an extent, yes. |
| 22:57.47 | SpeedEvil | Ideally, yes hozer. |
| 22:57.51 | hozer | and apps go in a second partition |
| 22:58.01 | SpeedEvil | That would make me most comfortable. |
| 22:58.19 | MickTaiwan | Hi there. having a problem compiling openmoko-libs. configure says: No package 'libecal-1.2' found. No package 'libgsmd' found. Just followed the instructions here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC |
| 22:58.21 | SpeedEvil | This is only for secure cases of course. |
| 22:58.25 | hozer | so, kernel + initramfs in a /boot partition |
| 22:58.32 | hozer | why make it only for secure cases? |
| 22:58.37 | SpeedEvil | True. |
| 22:58.48 | TimRiker | sure, once it's shipping I would put the kernel, modules, base apps, libs, etc in a readonly fs and then userspace in the rest. |
| 22:59.13 | TimRiker | course I'd like to talk to u-boot over usb-serial to set the partitioning on the kernel command line. |
| 22:59.35 | SpeedEvil | I really also want the JTAG even to be lockable out without passphrase. |
| 22:59.41 | SpeedEvil | That's a bit more trricky. |
| 22:59.51 | galexande | just a little bit |
| 22:59.52 | TimRiker | heh. yeah, good luck with that one. |
| 22:59.59 | hozer | hah |
| 23:00.08 | SpeedEvil | Epoxy may work almost as well. |
| 23:00.16 | hozer | can you put a TPM chip or something on the board to store secret keys? |
| 23:00.18 | galexande | hahahahah |
| 23:00.24 | TimRiker | just cut a trace and have done with it. |
| 23:00.41 | galexande | just pot the thing in epoxy |
| 23:00.43 | SpeedEvil | Ideally I'd like it reversable, but... |
| 23:00.51 | galexande | uh!! that's actually what is known as a good idea, maybe |
| 23:01.01 | galexande | except i guess it doesn't do anything to protect the screen which is the only thing you'd break |
| 23:01.06 | TimRiker | you could add a pic on board that changes it's jtag path length randomly. :) |
| 23:01.23 | galexande | devious! |
| 23:01.28 | SpeedEvil | I'm considering adding a PIC to mine in the debug port. |
| 23:01.38 | galexande | what for |
| 23:01.45 | SpeedEvil | Well - not to mine. |
| 23:01.51 | SpeedEvil | For sale too. |
| 23:02.01 | TimRiker | then you need to fiddle in a "password" over the jtag bits to get it to stablize. |
| 23:02.08 | SpeedEvil | Accels, thermometers, baromters, gyroscopes, ... |
| 23:02.17 | galexande | tim, or you could have the same random generator on the jtag programmer |
| 23:02.20 | cesarb | How will software updates on the phone be handled, via packages (ipkg) or via overwriting the root fs? |
| 23:02.34 | galexande | speed, ah, you really think there is room enough in there for that? |
| 23:02.40 | TimRiker | hehe |
| 23:02.48 | SpeedEvil | galexande: not all of it - accels and pic - sure. |
| 23:02.52 | galexande | i guess if you go at the case with a dremel there's room for everything |
| 23:02.53 | SpeedEvil | QFN are small. |
| 23:03.02 | SpeedEvil | Not actually touching the case. |
| 23:03.11 | hozer | put a TPM chip on so you have a secure place to store secret keys ;0 |
| 23:03.12 | galexande | cesarb, choose your own adventure |
| 23:03.17 | TimRiker | cesarb: depends on the vendor's choice. on a dev unit you can use whatever you like. OpenEmbedded includes ipkg support. |
| 23:03.43 | hozer | although I guess that's kind of useless unless the TPM can verify a signed U-Boot & kernel |
| 23:04.04 | cesarb | Won't overwriting the root fs all the time cause problems with the wear leveling, since the wear leveling is one level above it (on jffs2)? |
| 23:04.17 | TimRiker | well, some chips include a "secure boot" mode. where the bootloader needs to be signed, and it then only loads signed kernels etc. |
| 23:04.27 | *** join/#openmoko Skwid_ (n=Skwid@bas1-montreal42-1178046310.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 23:04.45 | galexande | cesarb, modern flash has 100,000 writes. you could flash the whole device every day for a year and still have 99,635 flashes left. |
| 23:04.49 | TimRiker | cesarb: not in our lifetimes. |
| 23:05.00 | hozer | the question is .. does this chip have it ;) |
| 23:05.02 | galexande | what is hard on flash is writing to the same area very frequently |
| 23:05.42 | TimRiker | galexande: I think the point was that reflashing the complete fs means writing to practially every location each time. |
| 23:05.59 | galexande | riker, yeah, and you could do that to every location every day for a year and have 99,635 flashes left for each location |
| 23:06.03 | SpeedEvil | The endurance of the NAND is OK |
| 23:06.22 | mmazur | With the logfs thing or whatever it's called, it should be fine. |
| 23:06.29 | cesarb | TimRiker: not every location, but the beginning of the flash |
| 23:06.29 | TimRiker | galexande: I've seen NAND go bad, but not often these days. |
| 23:06.45 | SpeedEvil | IIRC you're guaranteed 1000 writes for the first block with no errors. |
| 23:06.53 | galexande | yeah, it won't ever go bad from reflashing the whole device on a user-activated event. i don't think i even receive 100,000 phone calls in the life of a phone |
| 23:06.55 | cesarb | TimRiker: I'm worried that the first n blocks of the partition will end up being rewritten every time you reflash, while the last n blocks will not... |
| 23:07.14 | SpeedEvil | And at 100K writes over the whole device, it's guaranteed to be at its nominal capacity |
| 23:07.19 | TimRiker | cesarb: reflashing a complete fs means a lot of writes. but as discussed, this is fine for the number of times it'll happen. |
| 23:07.44 | TimRiker | cesarb: wearleveling is supposed to handle that. |
| 23:08.02 | SpeedEvil | There is no wearlegveling ont eh NAND |
| 23:08.10 | cesarb | TimRiker: wear leveling is above the reflashing... it's on the filesystem itself |
| 23:08.41 | TimRiker | in the mtd layer of u-boot and jffs2 there is some amount anyway. at least to handle bad blocks. |
| 23:10.27 | cesarb | TimRiker: bad blocks handling != wear leveling... |
| 23:10.37 | galexande | it doesn't matter one way or the other for the twenty flashes it will see |
| 23:10.42 | orzo | they should write the list and tell us why we arent getting the 2nd emails |
| 23:11.08 | *** join/#openmoko jaebird (n=jae@53-89.netblk-69-41-89.coolaccess.net) |
| 23:11.26 | galexande | orzo, they told us it wouldn't ship until thursday, so they have written everything they should have written |
| 23:11.30 | galexande | i'm tired of people calling them uncommunicative |
| 23:11.41 | galexande | we should save our annoyance for the 17th :) |
| 23:11.48 | TimRiker | cesarb: true. but the jffs2 on nand does wear leveling and bad block in the same layer. all uboot needs really is bad-block. |
| 23:12.04 | orzo | what's on the 17th? |
| 23:12.10 | TimRiker | the day after. |
| 23:12.10 | galexande | the day after they said they'd ship |
| 23:12.18 | galexande | i don't know why i said thursday, i meant monday the 16th |
| 23:13.34 | Elrond | TimRiker - AFAIK on openmoko, the bad blocks are handled below the fs. |
| 23:15.10 | *** join/#openmoko gresh_ (n=christop@Md967.m.pppool.de) |
| 23:16.40 | MickTaiwan | I don't understand why libopenmoko is the dependence list of openmokolibs |
| 23:16.44 | TimRiker | Elrond: on nand, last I was in there, there was quite a bit of overlap tween wear leveling and lower level bad block handling. dwmw2 (or others) may have changed things though. |
| 23:18.06 | MickTaiwan | I meant libgsmd : checking for DEPS... configure: error: Package requirements (gtk+-2.0 >= 2. libecal-1.2 >= 1.4.2 gdk-pixbuf-2.0 libgsmd) |
| 23:18.22 | *** join/#openmoko khester (n=khester@c-24-4-236-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 23:21.11 | MickTaiwan | How can we compile the libs if one lib is needed ? |
| 23:21.55 | *** join/#openmoko crunchylaptop (n=welch@pool-71-190-70-26.nycmny.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:27.29 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=freyther@dsl-62-220-14-162.berlikomm.net) |
| 23:27.36 | zecke | ~seen roh |
| 23:27.58 | apt | roh <n=roh@yamato.hyte.de> was last seen on IRC in channel #openmoko, 21h 18m 56s ago, saying: 'orzo sounds like a major project if you want to start that.. but very cool.'. |
| 23:28.46 | zecke | roh: if you are awake, I would like to visit the base/club/whatever |
| 23:29.03 | MrFeetio | how hard would it be to add buttons to the neo1973? |
| 23:29.58 | TimRiker | MrFeetio: get some hotglue and a few buttons.... |
| 23:29.59 | MrFeetio | and i assume driver would be need for the buttons |
| 23:30.57 | MrFeetio | i can never seem to find any hot-glue sticks, how much do they cost at wal-mart? |
| 23:31.45 | SpeedEvil | You need the special blue glue-sticks, if you want the buttons to be able to be usable over bluetooth. |
| 23:33.51 | aevin | gluetooth? |
| 23:34.08 | TimRiker | aevin: hehe |
| 23:34.51 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 23:34.58 | TimRiker | the dev board has open pins. are gpios broght out there? |
| 23:35.07 | aevin | watch out for sticky bits coming out the pipes |
| 23:35.24 | SpeedEvil | TimRiker: look on the hardware page |
| 23:36.41 | MrFeetio | i hope someone makes the "digital gaming"(dpad, 4 buttons, shoulder buttons) |
| 23:37.15 | MrFeetio | otherwise the phone will miss out on alot of games |
| 23:37.37 | *** join/#openmoko nop (n=nop@p54A0B854.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 23:38.02 | orzo | iduno why they wanted no buttons in teh first place |
| 23:38.16 | cesarb | TimRiker: I'd guess they are for testing |
| 23:38.20 | daMaestro | this is 2007.. why do you need buttons? |
| 23:38.23 | daMaestro | ;-) |
| 23:38.23 | cesarb | TimRiker: on a bed-of-nails thingy |
| 23:38.44 | cesarb | TimRiker: so, they are probably the same ones in the flex cable to the debug board (i.e., jtag and serial) |
| 23:38.49 | TimRiker | SpeedEvil: you mean the one I posted before that shows a picture and basically says "yep, this is the hardware" |
| 23:39.23 | TimRiker | daMaestro: mame wants buttons. :) |
| 23:39.44 | MrFeetio | mame doesnt know about 2007 |
| 23:39.56 | orzo | well, buttons are better |
| 23:40.09 | MrFeetio | for some things yes |
| 23:40.16 | orzo | dialing |
| 23:40.35 | MrFeetio | dialing being one of them |
| 23:40.41 | MrFeetio | and typing |
| 23:40.45 | TimRiker | I just want a touchscreen with tactile feedback. :) |
| 23:40.46 | MrFeetio | and games |
| 23:40.59 | MrFeetio | i was thinking about that |
| 23:41.08 | *** part/#openmoko mafeu (n=mafeu@brmn-d9bbc36e.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 23:41.14 | cesarb | TimRiker: you could make the phone vibrate when you press on the screen ;-) |
| 23:42.11 | TimRiker | yeah, needs to be localized though. beeps get feedback, but not the same as button clicks. |
| 23:42.48 | daMaestro | TimRiker, ahh yes.. mame would be awesome on the neo |
| 23:43.27 | daMaestro | TimRiker, i think we are going to just have to get some post market design going and find (aka poke FIC) someone to build the keyboard/addon |
| 23:43.38 | unarzna | i suppose scummvm should work quite well on neo? |
| 23:43.40 | daMaestro | TimRiker, just something like a modified case |
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