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| 00:49.35 | jimt | *hello* |
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| 01:56.18 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Alternate_Neo1973_case_designs]] |
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| 03:05.43 | linux_galore | http://i0005.photobucket.com/albums/0005/icanhascheezburger/2007/6/12/1/128261114448593750lolcatalignr.jpg |
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| 03:49.25 | CoreDump|home | alphaone: you are my hero =) I'll test it when I get home |
| 03:56.58 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Optical_Character_Recognition]] [[Alternate_Neo1973_case_designs]] |
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| 06:26.44 | CM | Have anyone been able to build a qemu flash image lately? |
| 06:27.16 | CM | I just manage to get the now classic "U-boot failed to finish writing in 300 seconds, giving up." from make flash-qemu-local. |
| 06:32.53 | hrw | morning |
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| 07:15.54 | TRIsoft | morning |
| 07:16.27 | iniduoh | Good Day |
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| 07:58.38 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Eric]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] |
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| 08:06.00 | Stephmw | heya |
| 08:09.37 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 08:33.04 | iniduoh | so is minimo going to be the official web browser? |
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| 08:36.16 | CM | iniduoh: Or some webkit based one |
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| 08:42.31 | ScaredyCat | counter |
| 08:42.32 | aloril | (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 4 days 03:17:28 (4.137±1.0 days) (1676;245) |
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| 09:10.58 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Openmoko ads now on youtube |
| 09:12.23 | Placid | moo |
| 09:13.06 | ScaredyCat | baaa |
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| 09:16.05 | Placid | :D |
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| 09:54.42 | buz | http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=223 |
| 09:54.48 | buz | now can i have that for switzerland, please |
| 09:57.38 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch]] [[Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973/es]] [[OpenMoko]] [[Wish_List]] |
| 10:10.28 | mjr | buz, yeah, that's a wow right there |
| 10:10.32 | mjr | Finland, please :] |
| 10:11.16 | *** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85.127.117.37) |
| 10:11.24 | Tronic | OSM already works pretty well in Turku and Helsinki area. |
| 10:12.10 | Tronic | There are some smaller roads missing, but there are also more details than in official maps. |
| 10:15.51 | mjr | Helsinki center yes, Helsinki area not that much; I do intend to help out of course come my Neo |
| 10:16.17 | Basheri | I demand whole finland! :D |
| 10:17.14 | mjr | unfortunately we live in a world where you're not in a position to make that demand |
| 10:18.06 | Basheri | How do you know |
| 10:18.48 | mjr | I don't, I made a reasonable assumption on your demanding capabilities |
| 10:18.58 | Viko | Basheri might well be the president of finland. |
| 10:19.27 | mjr | Basheri seems to be male, though, if his ircname is to be trusted |
| 10:19.42 | Basheri | I'm undercover |
| 10:19.53 | Viko | Naturally. |
| 10:21.40 | *** part/#openmoko jimt (n=jim@210-54-124-155.ipnets.xtra.co.nz) |
| 10:22.12 | Viko | Neo1939 - Finland Winter Edition. |
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| 10:23.05 | Tarja | I hate winter =( |
| 10:23.31 | SpeedEvil | 'On the internet, nobody knows you are God'. |
| 10:23.33 | drear|laptop | as there seems to be finns here; any idea about the shipment of neo to .fi? |
| 10:23.40 | Tarja | SpeedEvil: :DDD |
| 10:23.49 | SpeedEvil | drear|laptop: is .fi in the EU, I forget. |
| 10:23.56 | drear|laptop | SpeedEvil, sure. |
| 10:24.13 | SpeedEvil | Should be pretty much the same as any other EU country then. |
| 10:24.14 | drear|laptop | SpeedEvil, i was reading about possible shipment from the eu? |
| 10:24.28 | drear|laptop | SpeedEvil, ok. good to hear. |
| 10:24.28 | SpeedEvil | drear|laptop: that's basically not been sorted out. |
| 10:24.48 | SpeedEvil | drear|laptop: it's quite likely they are all simplky being shipped individually from .hk |
| 10:24.52 | SpeedEvil | or .tw |
| 10:25.01 | Basheri | :O |
| 10:25.04 | Viko | 'On the internet, Google is god'. |
| 10:25.10 | SpeedEvil | Probably. |
| 10:28.57 | jessta | Google is always watching over you. |
| 10:29.42 | SpeedEvil | You don't have to use google. |
| 10:30.39 | Basheri | And i don't care if google is watching over me :P |
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| 10:32.20 | Basheri | hehe :P |
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| 11:00.50 | aloril | got new record 3 days ago: 288 nicks at 2007-07-02 (previous one was 283 nicks at 2007-03-07) |
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| 11:14.36 | ScaredyCat | SpeedEvil, isn't that "Ceiling cat is watching you masturbate' ? |
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| 11:23.35 | baird | http://macrochan.org/search.py?tag=Animals%3ACats%3ACeilingCat |
| 11:29.36 | lynx__ | hr hr |
| 11:39.13 | baird | SpeedEvil: http://zip.4chan.org/g/src/1183635532101.jpg |
| 11:39.49 | Basheri | 4chan =S |
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| 11:58.38 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[OpenMoko]] [[Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch]] |
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| 12:00.01 | aloril | counter |
| 12:00.01 | aloril | (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 3 days 23:59:59 (4.000±1.0 days) (1677;245) |
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| 12:24.22 | ScaredyCat | tick tock tick tock |
| 12:24.31 | Sup3rkiddo | boom |
| 12:24.33 | PMT | Ever onward runs the clock. |
| 12:25.37 | ScaredyCat | or there's a crocodile near by |
| 12:25.58 | ScaredyCat | errm |
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| 12:47.57 | alech | hi all, does anyone know if shipping from within europe will be possible from monday on? |
| 12:47.57 | aloril | alech: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 12:48.07 | *** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=shark@59.176.111.177) |
| 12:48.52 | aloril | alech: we don't know about 2007-07-09, but guess is directly from Taiwan or China only |
| 12:49.21 | CM | Seems likely for me too, since they only have a few phones |
| 12:49.21 | alech | OK, good to know ... |
| 12:49.44 | summatusmentis | does anyone know if they're going to stagger purchasing on the 9th? |
| 12:50.02 | summatusmentis | depending on where you're at in the world(timezones, becoming the 9th, all of that) |
| 12:51.20 | Basheri | i don't think so |
| 12:51.38 | summatusmentis | so it'll be based on whenever the 9th is in taiwan? |
| 12:52.04 | Basheri | I'm quite sure that the ordering starts at the same time everywhere |
| 12:52.05 | aloril | more like when they are able to open it (hopefully what you said ;-) |
| 12:52.25 | summatusmentis | mm... ok, good to know |
| 12:52.28 | aloril | counter |
| 12:52.28 | aloril | (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 3 days 23:07:31 (3.964±1.0 days) (1678;245) |
| 12:52.28 | ScaredyCat | wont that be the 8h then ? |
| 12:53.02 | aloril | above covers most of earth (except 2 early hours) |
| 12:53.34 | ScaredyCat | taiwan in +7 on GMT |
| 12:53.39 | aloril | no idea about time: subscribe to announce list, wait here and/or watch openmoko.com |
| 12:53.41 | ScaredyCat | is |
| 12:54.25 | aloril | 20:54 at Taipei now |
| 12:54.48 | ScaredyCat | 13:54 uk |
| 12:55.13 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@rosine73.inf.fu-berlin.de) |
| 12:55.24 | ScaredyCat | so, the 9th in taiwan is the 8th here.... for a bit |
| 12:55.30 | ScaredyCat | 7hrs |
| 12:55.36 | aloril | +7+summertime -> +8 UTC |
| 12:56.05 | ScaredyCat | I did say 'gmt; |
| 12:56.13 | ScaredyCat | ;) |
| 12:56.19 | Basheri | GMT <3 |
| 13:11.51 | *** join/#openmoko Moo^^ (n=moo@oul110-gw4.netplaza.fi) |
| 13:13.15 | *** join/#openmoko arahman (n=abdur-ra@cpe-76-49-66-119.buffalo.res.rr.com) |
| 13:14.13 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__ (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-c5b63576b5de162c) |
| 13:14.58 | Elrond | Would a patch to openmoko-dialer making it work better without dbus be accepted? (my desktop has no dbus) |
| 13:16.28 | CM | Elrond: What desktop do you use? |
| 13:18.16 | summatusmentis | no dbus?!?!? |
| 13:18.23 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby-n800 (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 13:20.57 | hrw | Elrond: dialer is dbus application and will be |
| 13:24.13 | Elrond | hrw - It doesn't have many dbus dependencies. :-) |
| 13:24.22 | *** join/#openmoko slider_ (n=foo@e182035042.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 13:24.41 | Elrond | CM, summatusmentis - Yeah, and I'm living fine without dbus on it. :-) |
| 13:24.50 | summatusmentis | lol |
| 13:25.35 | Placid | i am god |
| 13:26.27 | Elrond | Placid - What drugs do you utilize? |
| 13:26.43 | summatusmentis | and are they any good? |
| 13:27.01 | Placid | A cocktail actually |
| 13:27.11 | alphaone | Elrond: Most of the IPC will be dbus so I don't think removing dbus from the dialer will be a good idea |
| 13:27.11 | Placid | Alcohol, LSD and speed |
| 13:27.21 | Placid | speed/coke |
| 13:27.28 | Placid | hence the delusions of grandeur |
| 13:27.45 | Placid | coupled with Alcohol |
| 13:27.51 | Elrond | alphaone - It's a quite simple patch probably. I wont remoe it. Just "let it work _somewhat_ without dbus." |
| 13:27.54 | Placid | makes for one confused king! |
| 13:28.00 | *** join/#openmoko Zenton (n=vicente@212.166.192.135) |
| 13:28.11 | Placid | i can't see how to bring the keyboard up when using openmoko under qemu |
| 13:28.26 | Placid | i.e. i loaded the terminal but couldn't type anything :| |
| 13:28.30 | Elrond | Placid - white are next to the menu thing at the top. |
| 13:28.40 | *** join/#openmoko qopi (n=chatzill@87-194-62-177.bethere.co.uk) |
| 13:28.51 | Placid | oooh |
| 13:28.57 | alphaone | Elrond: Well, submit a bug and we'll see. I actually like dbus on my desktop and laptop. |
| 13:28.57 | Placid | so i 'write' in there? |
| 13:29.06 | Placid | i thought that was a graphics bug :D |
| 13:29.10 | alphaone | s/like/started liking/ |
| 13:29.19 | Placid | btw, is it wise that the terminal logs in as root? |
| 13:29.46 | hrw | Placid: all in openmoko works as root now |
| 13:30.04 | alphaone | Placid: Everything logs in as root and no, it's not wise :-) |
| 13:30.37 | Placid | Why root? Doesn't sound like a good idea :O |
| 13:31.05 | Placid | Is it something that'll be changed before mass-market release? |
| 13:31.29 | Elrond | Placid - I hope it will be fixed till mass market. |
| 13:31.47 | Elrond | ... you can brick (as in: you need the debug board) the ting with one single command as root. |
| 13:31.48 | Placid | ouch |
| 13:32.05 | alphaone | It's not that user management needs to be reimplemented in openmoko :-) |
| 13:32.17 | Placid | you know damn well that some dickhead'll `rm -rf /` because their mate said to do so |
| 13:32.34 | alphaone | that won't brick it, though |
| 13:32.36 | Elrond | Placid - "rm -rf /" isn't that command. |
| 13:32.46 | alphaone | Not to the point where you need the debug board |
| 13:32.47 | Placid | i wasn't saying it was the command |
| 13:32.59 | Elrond | Ahh. okay, yeah. |
| 13:33.10 | Placid | was just saying that someone's bound to do it :) |
| 13:33.17 | Elrond | Right. |
| 13:33.30 | alphaone | But it probably still is bad |
| 13:33.56 | Elrond | There's a fix for this specific problem possible in the kernel though. |
| 13:34.04 | Placid | perhaps a user could be created as part of the calibration/setup |
| 13:34.04 | *** join/#openmoko arahman (n=abdur-ra@cpe-76-49-66-119.buffalo.res.rr.com) |
| 13:34.06 | Placid | "Enter your name" |
| 13:34.08 | Placid | etc |
| 13:34.19 | Elrond | AFAIK. |
| 13:34.44 | Elrond | Placid - well, a default user would already be way better. |
| 13:35.00 | Placid | sure |
| 13:35.25 | Placid | makes things 'personalised' though ;) |
| 13:35.31 | Placid | not that it really matters |
| 13:35.49 | Elrond | Well, one step after the other. |
| 13:35.58 | Placid | indeed |
| 13:36.06 | Placid | wasn't a criticism, just an observation. |
| 13:36.15 | Elrond | :-) |
| 13:36.36 | Elrond | There are many issues there. And nearly all people are aware of them. |
| 13:37.05 | *** join/#openmoko konqui[tm] (n=freenode@83.125.33.93) |
| 13:37.17 | Placid | :) |
| 13:38.20 | Elrond | alphaone - Do you know offhead, if gsmd-connection is also via dbus? |
| 13:38.56 | alphaone | Elrond: gsmd is via a socket |
| 13:39.24 | Elrond | alphaone - Well, so dialer for very basic things doesn't need dbus. :-) |
| 13:39.48 | alphaone | Elrond: But the gsm applet running on openmoko will forward information via dbus |
| 13:41.42 | Elrond | alphaone - I said "very basic operation". This is like "Recommends" under Debian: "If you don't have this recommendation, you should expect a lot of problems". |
| 13:42.01 | *** part/#openmoko qopi (n=chatzill@87-194-62-177.bethere.co.uk) |
| 13:42.20 | alphaone | Elrond: You should use libmokogsm for that |
| 13:43.36 | Elrond | alphaone - hehe. :-) I'll file a bug with patch and see, what happens. It's not a big patch, I think. It wont make the dialer worse than it is. Probably even better, because I plan to clean up some things to make my idea possible. |
| 13:44.05 | alphaone | Elrond: :-) |
| 13:44.49 | *** join/#openmoko k-s[WORK] (n=gustavo@200.184.118.132) |
| 13:45.14 | Elrond | It's like cleanup + 3 lines. :-) |
| 13:45.55 | Elrond | currently it segfaults just, if dbus is not there. |
| 13:46.39 | alphaone | ah, that's not nice. |
| 13:47.50 | alphaone | Yeah, I think the matchbox-panel-2 just segfaults if DISPLAY is not set. I wanted to fix that for some time now... |
| 13:48.09 | Elrond | hehe. :-) |
| 13:51.37 | *** join/#openmoko drath_ (i=vmaster@p5B07CF12.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:54.24 | *** join/#openmoko jeddy3 (n=mattiast@87.253.84.66) |
| 13:58.03 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:BuiltInScriptingLanguage]] [[Wish_List]] |
| 13:58.34 | *** join/#openmoko mzb (n=ubernut@ppp108-88.static.internode.on.net) |
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| 14:22.36 | *** join/#openmoko miki (i=c026c50e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-8937f7428458d314) |
| 14:23.52 | *** join/#openmoko XXLT (n=XXLT@shark.csn.tu-chemnitz.de) |
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| 14:28.34 | *** join/#openmoko ozamosi (n=ozamosi@85.8.1.10.se.wasadata.net) |
| 14:31.05 | miki | Have people discovered the OpenMoko "PR" at youtube? Bumped into them by accident: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=openmoko&p=r |
| 14:31.21 | Placid | ja |
| 14:31.28 | Placid | discussed on the community mailinglist |
| 14:31.36 | Placid | (damn that list's got a lot of traffic...) |
| 14:31.39 | *** join/#openmoko Ryback_ (n=ulisses@200.184.118.132) |
| 14:32.31 | miki | yep, haven't check it today, yet |
| 14:32.53 | Basheri | miki: nope, thanks for the tip =) |
| 14:33.36 | *** join/#openmoko BenC (n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins) |
| 14:34.10 | *** join/#openmoko BenC (n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins) |
| 14:35.15 | miki | they are mostly cool, some even gives you that warm fuzzy feeling ;) |
| 14:35.38 | Placid | heh |
| 14:37.02 | duffyd | btw I'm a zope/python developer and have been using debian/ubuntu for the last 4 years - will I be able to get up to speed quite quickly on OpenMoko? |
| 14:37.34 | Basheri | yeap |
| 14:37.36 | *** join/#openmoko fralef (n=fralef@dsl-146-154.aei.ca) |
| 14:37.41 | guaqua | there are python bindings available for quite a few libs |
| 14:38.42 | duffyd | great. I'm also curious how easy it will be to build openmoko on the neo |
| 14:38.53 | duffyd | looking through the tuts doesn't appear to difficult |
| 14:40.30 | SpeedEvil | You mean actually using the neo for compiling? |
| 14:40.41 | SpeedEvil | It will take some times |
| 14:41.14 | duffyd | SpeedEvil: sorry, no I meant getting the OM system up-and-running, installing/managing my apps/etc |
| 14:41.21 | SpeedEvil | Ah. |
| 14:41.24 | Basheri | I think i need to downgrade to feisty cause due to gutsy's dependency problems, i can't install monotone =( |
| 14:41.38 | SpeedEvil | It's not that bad reportedly - though I haven't done it. |
| 14:43.11 | duffyd | k |
| 14:43.27 | duffyd | Basheri: *downgrade* to Feisty - wow you are at the bleeding edge ;-) |
| 14:44.26 | Basheri | I unfortunately upgraded to gutsy the very same that feisty was released |
| 14:45.37 | ninHer | hi all |
| 14:46.28 | Basheri | I did the same thing with edgy --> feisty and it all worked well, but i'm having quite a few problems with gutsy =( |
| 14:46.56 | *** join/#openmoko niels_ (n=niels@2610ds3-fb.0.fullrate.dk) |
| 14:48.33 | *** join/#openmoko nosyjoe (n=philipp@ppp-82-135-77-194.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 14:50.52 | guaqua | Basheri: easier to just use a single binary from monotone website |
| 14:51.44 | Basheri | it depends on some libs that are obsoleted in the gutsy repositories |
| 14:51.52 | Basheri | And it can't use the newer ones |
| 14:52.02 | Basheri | so the binary doesn't help |
| 14:52.10 | Basheri | i even tried compiling |
| 14:52.42 | galexande | why does the neo have two speakers on the back anyways? |
| 14:56.49 | SpeedEvil | stereo |
| 14:57.04 | Basheri | <3 |
| 14:57.10 | SpeedEvil | For low values of stereo |
| 14:57.56 | Basheri | I expect an alarm clock that's not as annoying as my current one |
| 14:58.06 | Basheri | maybe some good music =) |
| 14:59.26 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2360 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/s3c_mci.patch: * fix 'unfinished read' problems due to missing max_blk_count/max_blk_size (Roman Moravcik) |
| 14:59.40 | roh | Basheri i have some very mind-fracturing ringtones avail... so no problem there.. (need to check licenses through) |
| 15:00.07 | Basheri | =) |
| 15:00.42 | Basheri | I hope it's possible to add my own music as an alarm sound |
| 15:01.18 | *** join/#openmoko denis^da (n=denis@p5492845B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 15:01.21 | roh | besides that i can recommend a mp3 of johnny cash... ;) |
| 15:01.41 | roh | Basheri of course that will be possible |
| 15:02.01 | Basheri | yay |
| 15:02.06 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@cpe-70-116-144-238.houston.res.rr.com) |
| 15:02.08 | Basheri | As expected |
| 15:02.24 | Basheri | ;) |
| 15:04.16 | CoreDump|home | hi |
| 15:04.28 | Stephmw | yo |
| 15:04.31 | roh | Stephmw well... write a mail ;) |
| 15:04.39 | Stephmw | roh: most places you can't |
| 15:04.46 | *** join/#openmoko Free_maN (n=freenux@guest58.crihan.fr) |
| 15:05.08 | Stephmw | roh: quite a few big places refuse applications not submitted via their webform |
| 15:05.09 | roh | Stephmw then i'd ask myself if i want to work there at all |
| 15:05.32 | Stephmw | roh: she's a grad, so that kind of discrimination really isn't an option |
| 15:05.42 | Stephmw | roh: it'd be another matter for me |
| 15:05.52 | roh | mmmh |
| 15:05.54 | Basheri | If it's some it firm, you must hack the webform to proove your skills |
| 15:05.59 | SpeedEvil | Basheri: basically at the moment for almost all software questions, the answer is "no, unless you write it or convince someone to write it' - there is very little software there. |
| 15:06.01 | thomasg_ | sweet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxsVFG7jHI8 :) |
| 15:06.15 | Stephmw | roh: I have told Accenture to fuck off in the past |
| 15:06.30 | SpeedEvil | Oops. |
| 15:06.33 | Stephmw | haha |
| 15:06.38 | Basheri | SpeedEvil: Yep, i'm aware of that. =) |
| 15:07.06 | SpeedEvil | The 'confirm' page said error, but it had in facto ordered them. |
| 15:07.07 | *** join/#openmoko XorA (n=dp@www.xora.org.uk) |
| 15:07.24 | Stephmw | ah yes... or pressing back also resubmits |
| 15:07.58 | roh | *sigh* ... don't remember me.. happend to me more than once with RT |
| 15:08.33 | SpeedEvil | roh: Is the debug port pinout for GTA01 published? I want to start making stuff for it. |
| 15:08.40 | roh | so if you write a mail to us and get it more than once... ;) |
| 15:09.22 | roh | SpeedEvil isn't it in the wiki? if not, i can tell you. we want to have that open documented |
| 15:09.30 | SpeedEvil | No, it's not. |
| 15:09.54 | SpeedEvil | I think there was for P0 - but there was notation that it was changing |
| 15:10.07 | roh | uhm... ok.. i'll try to find out how to chop it out of the schems |
| 15:11.03 | SpeedEvil | yeah - Changes from GTA01Bv3 |
| 15:11.03 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:11.04 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:11.07 | roh | SpeedEvil from P0 to P1 (gta01bv03 to gta01bv04) we removed address and data bus from the connector. too much noise and capacity on these pins |
| 15:11.42 | SpeedEvil | I donI don't suppose you connected D+ and +0 from the external USB there too? |
| 15:11.49 | SpeedEvil | D- rather |
| 15:11.51 | roh | nope |
| 15:11.59 | SpeedEvil | Oh well. |
| 15:12.08 | SpeedEvil | Is there battery/vcc? |
| 15:12.15 | roh | but spi, a irq cap. gpio , i2c should surfice for gta01 ;) |
| 15:12.34 | roh | mompls.. i'll get you a nice shot which you then can work in the wiki |
| 15:12.45 | SpeedEvil | K |
| 15:12.54 | *** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 15:15.13 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@dsl-62-220-14-162.berlikomm.net) |
| 15:15.49 | roh | SpeedEvil usb is on the fpc for BT |
| 15:16.09 | roh | SpeedEvil so.. if absolutely neccessary.. available there |
| 15:16.37 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. Suppose so. Could do the internal hub thing... |
| 15:16.41 | *** join/#openmoko helb (n=helb@84.244.90.159) |
| 15:16.51 | SpeedEvil | Or if feeling silly - the SPI-USB thing |
| 15:20.08 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 15:21.10 | *** join/#openmoko ravan (n=ravan@202.140.50.194) |
| 15:21.56 | roh | SpeedEvil mail? |
| 15:22.27 | SpeedEvil | openmoko@mauve.plus.com |
| 15:22.31 | SpeedEvil | Or DCC works too |
| 15:23.28 | SpeedEvil | Thanks! |
| 15:23.35 | roh | ah.. put it on people |
| 15:23.36 | roh | http://people.openmoko.org/roh/Debugport_P1.png |
| 15:24.10 | roh | but remember.. its only for gta01bv4 |
| 15:27.12 | SpeedEvil | k |
| 15:27.43 | Elrond | roh - So better s/P1/gta01bv4/ ;-) |
| 15:27.56 | SpeedEvil | roh: what's the connector part number? |
| 15:28.03 | roh | SpeedEvil uuh.. dunno |
| 15:28.42 | roh | Elrond from my point of view i do not like 'P0 P1 Pwhatever' much since its too unprecise |
| 15:29.00 | Elrond | roh - You named the file. ;o) |
| 15:29.18 | roh | Elrond so better just use gta01bv4.. because thats a exact revision... |
| 15:29.22 | roh | Elrond yes.. my bad |
| 15:29.38 | SpeedEvil | roh - just looking for the dimensions that a flex cable needs to be to mate |
| 15:30.15 | roh | so.. better |
| 15:30.29 | Elrond | roh - But anyway: Great, that you opened the debug port specs! :-)) |
| 15:31.06 | roh | SpeedEvil if you want something internal on it.. just let someone who knows what he does use the testpins (i2c) |
| 15:31.36 | *** part/#openmoko miki (i=c026c50e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-8937f7428458d314) |
| 15:32.23 | roh | i'll do that... i want this inside my phone http://nvlsi.no/index.cfm?obj=product&act=display&pro=89 |
| 15:32.46 | *** join/#openmoko evanpro (n=evan@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) |
| 15:35.36 | SpeedEvil | roh - looks fun. Available in ones? |
| 15:36.36 | roh | dunno.. but a friend uses them in a not that big project... http://www.openbeacon.org/start.0.html |
| 15:38.27 | SpeedEvil | I want zigbee, or something similar. |
| 15:38.31 | SpeedEvil | That might be a good match |
| 15:38.40 | roh | they sold them for about 10euros a piece |
| 15:38.52 | roh | zigbee is dead (luckyly |
| 15:39.04 | SpeedEvil | Why is zigbee dead? |
| 15:40.06 | pigpen | Just fyi, there are many people in San Antonio, TX drooling over the openmoko project.... |
| 15:40.28 | duffyd | pigpen: cool :-) |
| 15:40.39 | guaqua | there are a lot people around the world drooling over the openmoko project :) |
| 15:40.46 | pigpen | I bet. |
| 15:41.05 | pigpen | some devs , some techies, some users. |
| 15:41.14 | pigpen | my wife could care less. :) |
| 15:41.17 | roh | a) ive not seen any devices supporting it ever and b) they have different frequencys for different countrys since they couldn't agree on one only which makes devices more complicated and thus expensive. which also makes it senseless for amateur projects mostly |
| 15:41.34 | roh | pigpen nice to hear |
| 15:42.10 | *** join/#openmoko freak132_ (n=freak@bas3-stcatharines10-1242438424.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 15:42.51 | roh | SpeedEvil bluetooth was to complicated for light switches, and zigbee never agreed on simple enough standards so it failed... i want my light to be switchable with my phone also.. so i need to intervene myself :) |
| 15:44.10 | SpeedEvil | Zigbee chips are available with complete microcontroller and RF solutions in a 6*6mm BGA for $3 |
| 15:44.20 | SpeedEvil | And stack. |
| 15:44.36 | roh | still.. do you know of any products? |
| 15:44.51 | SpeedEvil | That's one problem. |
| 15:44.53 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 15:45.02 | galexande | get a zigbee unit for your pc, and use bluetooth to talk to the pc? |
| 15:45.05 | SpeedEvil | Zigbee searching on ebay tends to bring up one evab board. |
| 15:45.07 | galexande | that's how i'd control my x10 |
| 15:45.08 | SpeedEvil | eval |
| 15:45.09 | roh | i can solder the nordic chip by hand.. thats why i like it |
| 15:45.30 | SpeedEvil | And zigbee searching on froogle brings up several products |
| 15:45.35 | *** join/#openmoko ahbritto (n=guest@adsl-64-161-117-110.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 15:45.37 | SpeedEvil | but mostly books |
| 15:45.51 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AD2E8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:46.07 | SpeedEvil | roh: So - no power available on the debug port then? Oh well. |
| 15:48.37 | roh | SpeedEvil unfortunately no |
| 15:49.30 | roh | but since most selfbuilt electronics is neither too small or low power a extra powersource might be a good idea |
| 15:49.59 | SpeedEvil | Umm - no. My primary interest is stuff that runs entirely off the phone, and uses micro-milliamps. |
| 15:50.01 | roh | SpeedEvil what do you wanna solder? |
| 15:50.09 | SpeedEvil | Solder? |
| 15:50.22 | SpeedEvil | Sorry - in what context? |
| 15:50.24 | *** join/#openmoko ml8128 (n=ml8128@14.105.100-84.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 15:50.38 | roh | or build. whats your intent? |
| 15:50.42 | SpeedEvil | Oh |
| 15:50.48 | SpeedEvil | 'stuff' :) |
| 15:50.54 | SpeedEvil | Many and various ideas. |
| 15:50.55 | roh | :) |
| 15:51.15 | pigpen | How useful are "technical testers" to this project. Just courious, as I have a few extra tmobile accounts that I am not using at the moment. |
| 15:51.16 | SpeedEvil | From a proper docking connector, to accelerometers, magnetometers, |
| 15:51.19 | galexande | well on the debug port you can just hold one of the gpios high and get your power from that, i'm sure the s3c can power at least 1mA on i/o :) |
| 15:51.47 | *** join/#openmoko hugh_ (n=hugh@pool-72-66-28-229.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 15:52.05 | mjr | hehe |
| 15:52.32 | SpeedEvil | Ideally I'd have liked both 3.3V, and raw battery on there. |
| 15:53.08 | galexande | you could take out one of the speakers |
| 15:53.10 | SpeedEvil | Guess I'm either going to also have to plug into the bluetooth connector - which is annoying, or the battery. |
| 15:53.19 | galexande | i'm sure there's an exposed 3.3V contact on the board just for this |
| 15:53.26 | SpeedEvil | I don't want a contact. |
| 15:53.37 | SpeedEvil | I want somewhere I can plug stuff into for selling to users. |
| 15:53.42 | galexande | oh |
| 15:53.43 | galexande | heh |
| 15:54.08 | SpeedEvil | Soldering cuts the market dramatically, and offering to fit doesn't really help, as customs comes in in most cases. |
| 15:54.46 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_laptop (n=ewanm89@host86-152-200-192.range86-152.btcentralplus.com) |
| 15:55.07 | SpeedEvil | roh: and capacitive joystick/buttons |
| 15:56.06 | roh | heh.. be aware of the insane amount of work and money any case mods cost |
| 15:56.53 | hrw | bye all |
| 15:57.02 | *** join/#openmoko some1__ (n=some1@p54A0E675.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:57.10 | roh | besides that the debug connector is very near the corner of the board, so plugging it in with a closed case is at least questionable. |
| 15:58.03 | SpeedEvil | I'm assuming a flex PCB, going from 40-6 connectors almost immediately. |
| 15:58.33 | thomasg_ | 4 days remaining :) |
| 15:58.38 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_Hardware]] |
| 15:59.09 | thomasg_ | did somebody try to run GdkLauncher already? |
| 15:59.30 | roh | my personal opinion is that if you want to have some kind of sellable, just plug electronics you'll need to sell replacement case parts to have a) the space for the cable and b) for the additional pcb. |
| 16:00.21 | *** part/#openmoko DevonSnow (n=devon@host126-49-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 16:00.39 | *** join/#openmoko faded515 (n=faded515@cpc3-hatf4-0-0-cust973.lutn.cable.ntl.com) |
| 16:00.57 | SpeedEvil | If I have to do that, it's not happening. |
| 16:00.59 | _diego__ | counter |
| 16:00.59 | aloril | (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 3 days 19:59:00 (3.833±1.0 days) (1679;246) |
| 16:02.10 | roh | hand soldered electronics with really small paint covered copper wires could fit in the big case part, sideways of the battery holder.. but it will be tricky to fiddle it in at all |
| 16:02.32 | roh | i was impressed there is space left at all ;) |
| 16:02.45 | galexande | i hate trying to build portable electronics |
| 16:03.02 | ewon | my soldering skills offend $deity |
| 16:03.11 | galexande | i'm glad sean et al are doing it for me :) |
| 16:03.41 | SpeedEvil | I'm assuming flex-PCB all the way through. |
| 16:04.16 | galexande | speed, is there a cheap way to fab those? |
| 16:04.29 | galexande | as i understand it, i don't think i can even solder on them |
| 16:04.31 | SpeedEvil | As I see it, I can go from debug port, out through GPS hole to back of battery case. |
| 16:04.32 | roh | galexande the problem is always size... i have access to a simple cnc mill, and still structures <0.1mm are nearly impossible to create. soldering such stuff is possible always as long its not bga |
| 16:04.54 | galexande | solder bga in a toaster oven (hah hah) |
| 16:04.57 | SpeedEvil | then from back of battery case to void |
| 16:05.08 | SpeedEvil | As to production - we'll see, I have ideas. |
| 16:05.16 | *** join/#openmoko miip (n=miip@p54A56E54.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:08.26 | *** join/#openmoko ravan (n=ravan@202.140.50.194) |
| 16:13.00 | ScaredyCat | counter |
| 16:13.00 | aloril | (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 3 days 19:46:59 (3.824±1.0 days) (1680;246) |
| 16:13.01 | ScaredyCat | counter |
| 16:13.01 | aloril | (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 3 days 19:46:58 (3.824±1.0 days) (1681;246) |
| 16:13.05 | ScaredyCat | :D :D D: |
| 16:15.06 | *** join/#openmoko mei_mei (i=jiejie@210.1.124.179) |
| 16:15.11 | SpeedEvil | Anyone with a debug board: I'd appreciate A) Dimension of the connector width, with a vernier caliper. Photograph as close up as you can of the connector. |
| 16:15.39 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04_ (n=amarsh04@CPE-124-182-100-214.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 16:17.25 | SpeedEvil | roh: was there ever anything external that used any of the uncommitted pins on the debug connector? |
| 16:17.35 | SpeedEvil | now uncommitted |
| 16:21.33 | *** join/#openmoko woglinde (i=woglinde@e178070130.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:22.04 | CoreDump|home | well, no vernier caliper here |
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| 16:32.55 | CoreDump|home | SpeedEvil: try http://hentges.net/tmp/photos/Neo1973/ (images 341 to 343) |
| 16:33.32 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 16:34.29 | SpeedEvil | Oops. I meant the actual bit that plugs into the neo :) |
| 16:35.42 | *** join/#openmoko denis__ (n=denis@p54929C49.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:38.29 | galexande | ah, prepaidgsm.net has given me hope |
| 16:38.40 | don-o | the openmoko video 'ads' are great! |
| 16:38.45 | *** join/#openmoko nep (n=schreine@p54A43E54.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:39.27 | don-o | the playlist is here for those who dont read the community list: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=472DE700A3CC70A4 |
| 16:39.32 | XXLT | how am i supposed to pay an ordered neo1973? |
| 16:39.35 | XXLT | credit card? |
| 16:39.55 | Elrond | XXLT - Probably. |
| 16:39.55 | galexande | xxlt, we'll all find out on jul 9th i hope :) |
| 16:40.28 | XXLT | hopefully |
| 16:41.36 | galexande | hahaha these ads are great, i've gotta get on that mailing list |
| 16:41.50 | Placid | rofl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxsVFG7jHI8&feature=PlayList&p=472DE700A3CC70A4&index=9 |
| 16:41.54 | Placid | that one rocks |
| 16:43.26 | *** join/#openmoko denis^da (n=denis@p5492B4E8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:45.57 | don-o | the We're the Phone Company is really funny although not openmoko related. |
| 16:46.14 | don-o | (Openmoko 11) |
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| 16:46.35 | galexande | ooo i've never had to chose a hostname for a phone before |
| 16:46.47 | SpeedEvil | :) |
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| 16:48.11 | CoreDump|home | SpeedEvil: I've added a few more pics |
| 16:48.17 | galexande | i still don't understand gprs...it's basically ppp over a' cell modem, right? |
| 16:48.28 | SpeedEvil | galexande: logically, yes |
| 16:49.00 | Elrond | galexande - Yeah, I still haven't changed the default hostname on "my" neo. ;o) |
| 16:49.57 | galexande | so what's on the other end of the ppp connection, your telco? |
| 16:50.01 | galexande | or a phone number? |
| 16:50.10 | SpeedEvil | the telco |
| 16:50.26 | seemant | CoreDump|home: pics? |
| 16:50.30 | galexande | can it be always-on? |
| 16:50.59 | CoreDump|home | seemant: of the debug board |
| 16:51.02 | seemant | ah |
| 16:51.22 | seemant | CoreDump|home: so like how usable is your neo |
| 16:51.37 | SpeedEvil | CoreDump|home: err - the plastic flex-cable bit - the bit that actually plugs in to the neo. Or is it identical to the connecotr on the board? |
| 16:51.38 | CoreDump|home | currently not at all |
| 16:51.56 | CoreDump|home | SpeedEvil: identical to the connector |
| 16:52.00 | SpeedEvil | galexande: yes - it can be always on |
| 16:52.05 | SpeedEvil | CoreDump|home: thanks! |
| 16:52.10 | CoreDump|home | np |
| 16:53.16 | seemant | CoreDump|home: how come? |
| 16:53.32 | CoreDump|home | seemant: the software is not really usable yet |
| 16:53.39 | seemant | CoreDump|home: oh |
| 16:53.40 | seemant | huh |
| 16:53.47 | seemant | CoreDump|home: can you at least make calls wiffit? |
| 16:54.05 | CoreDump|home | I believe so, yes =) |
| 16:54.38 | CoreDump|home | The image currently installed has a kerel bug preventing it but the bug has since been fixed |
| 16:54.45 | seemant | CoreDump|home: and like how do you update the software? ssh in via the wifi? |
| 16:54.55 | SpeedEvil | no wifi |
| 16:54.59 | SpeedEvil | USB |
| 16:55.09 | seemant | oh ah |
| 16:55.14 | CoreDump|home | USB networking or BlueTooth |
| 16:55.48 | *** join/#openmoko LuitvD (n=luitvd@beigetower/luitvd) |
| 16:56.01 | galexande | coredump, who'd you kill to get one? :) |
| 16:56.15 | CoreDump|home | heh |
| 16:56.50 | CoreDump|home | it is a developer version |
| 16:57.06 | seemant | CoreDump|home: so like what else is usable? you can hook up bluetooth headphone dealies? |
| 16:57.44 | CoreDump|home | seemant: manually, yeah. But this stuff does not work out of the box yet |
| 16:57.50 | seemant | ah ok |
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| 17:00.36 | roh | SpeedEvil there was once stuff connected to the now empty lines... on debugboard v1 which was produced in _very_ low amounts and soon replaced by the debugboard v2 |
| 17:00.51 | galexande | awesome, at&t's gophone can give you unlimited data and 200 minutes/mo for only $50/mo |
| 17:01.19 | SpeedEvil | roh: K - just wondering if in principle adding new stuff to that connector would break stuff |
| 17:01.19 | *** join/#openmoko moribus (n=knassar@cpe-76-171-169-80.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 17:02.07 | roh | SpeedEvil adding stuff would not break anything. but i do not see that happen atm, and i hope after gta03 we can have a external dock connector |
| 17:02.12 | roh | eh after gta02 |
| 17:03.16 | SpeedEvil | Dock connector doesn't really solve the internal hardware thing at all though. |
| 17:03.39 | galexande | well a dock connector would at least give you externally-accessible 3.3V, right? |
| 17:03.54 | moribus | is anyone actively developing finger splash? http://www.micropp.se/openmoko/ |
| 17:03.54 | SpeedEvil | Yes - but wiring that back inside would be annoying |
| 17:03.55 | aloril | moribus: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 17:04.12 | *** join/#openmoko XXLT (n=XXLT@herkules.hrz.tu-chemnitz.de) |
| 17:04.16 | galexande | oh |
| 17:04.39 | roh | SpeedEvil i think there will ne no space left at all when the case changes |
| 17:04.49 | guaqua | moribus: afaik someone did do a simple demo of it |
| 17:04.56 | SpeedEvil | There is also the expansion back idea |
| 17:04.58 | roh | so no need for a internal connector. |
| 17:05.11 | SpeedEvil | which does need an internal connector |
| 17:05.41 | roh | a phone with no space left internal and everything on the dock conn |
| 17:06.37 | galexande | mori, this doesn't answer your question but maybe you'll like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDDXEk0dwzU which i will certainly build for openmoko in the coming months |
| 17:06.40 | aloril | roh: make it easy to replace part of case with expansion back? |
| 17:07.29 | roh | aloril: dunno. thats something which is not decided yet and now nobody has time to think about. we want to finish gta01/02 first |
| 17:07.57 | moribus | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:08.00 | aloril | yeah, but once you have time to think about future cases ... |
| 17:08.08 | roh | so no worries.. there are such ideas and they will be evaluated keeping hacking and expandability in mind |
| 17:08.53 | roh | moribus is your /bin/sh symlinked to dash? |
| 17:09.24 | moribus | roh: knassar@wiggly:~/Projects/OpenMoko/build$ type /bin/sh |
| 17:09.24 | moribus | /bin/sh is /bin/sh |
| 17:09.25 | roh | ah.. no.. it failed to fetch the tarball |
| 17:09.39 | *** join/#openmoko zell1983 (n=zell1983@host252-124-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 17:09.48 | roh | moribus: ls -al /bin/sh |
| 17:10.00 | moribus | damn |
| 17:10.10 | moribus | you got me |
| 17:10.28 | roh | if it is, the perl-native will fail to build or generate bogus output |
| 17:12.54 | moribus | roh: dash removed, still can't fetch tarball |
| 17:15.22 | roh | uhm.. |
| 17:15.39 | aloril | seems that you need to get that tarball from another place |
| 17:16.46 | moribus | what is trying to fetch it? |
| 17:16.50 | moribus | grep finds nothing |
| 17:17.02 | moribus | I was just gonna modify the .bb, but I can't find it |
| 17:17.17 | aloril | according to pastebin: ftp://sleepycat1.inetu.net/releases/db-3.2.9.tar.gz |
| 17:17.37 | moribus | right |
| 17:17.44 | moribus | I cannot connect to sleepycat1 |
| 17:18.01 | moribus | but, I can't figure out where to "correct" this |
| 17:18.02 | aloril | yup, so you need to find another place for that tarball ;-) |
| 17:18.27 | Clint | why do you need db 3.2.9? |
| 17:18.28 | roh | the url is in openembedded/packages/db/db3_3.2.9.bb |
| 17:18.42 | moribus | argh. didn't try find. |
| 17:19.04 | roh | it gets inherited from there by db3-native_3.2.9.bb |
| 17:19.58 | moribus | thx for the help\ |
| 17:20.04 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=huhh@53d82d7d.adsl.enternet.hu) |
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| 17:25.00 | CM | roh: Got any hint for the "U-boot failed to finish writing in 300 seconds, giving up." from make flash-qemu-local. |
| 17:25.46 | CM | I've managed to build it 4 times, but not the last 2 days |
| 17:27.25 | SpeedEvil | CoreDump|home: that seems to conflict with the PNG roh posted - 5 more pins. The cable will plug in to the neo or the debug board either way round? |
| 17:27.54 | CoreDump|home | hmm good one |
| 17:27.55 | roh | CM oeh.. i didn't have this problem recently.. do you have a log? |
| 17:28.28 | CoreDump|home | I don't think so no |
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| 17:35.46 | PBeck | hi |
| 17:38.40 | Transmogrifier | hi |
| 17:39.29 | *** join/#openmoko moribus (n=knassar@cpe-76-171-169-80.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 17:39.57 | moribus | roh: those berkely db files have moved since oracle bought sleepycat |
| 17:40.09 | CM | roh: http://pastebin.ca/604637 |
| 17:40.44 | CM | roh: I'm thinking of removing everything and just start from scratch again, but last time it took 7.5h to build everything |
| 17:40.59 | moribus | http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/berkeley-db/db/index.html |
| 17:41.12 | roh | moribus oh... can you please open a bugreport then, assign it to mickey and add the new location there? |
| 17:41.25 | moribus | bugs.openmoko.org? |
| 17:41.44 | moribus | got it |
| 17:41.48 | moribus | bugzilla.openmoko.org |
| 17:41.50 | moribus | will do |
| 17:41.52 | moribus | ttyal |
| 17:42.04 | roh | thanks |
| 17:42.21 | roh | i would change it, but cannot commit to that part of the repo ;) |
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| 17:50.40 | moribus | he name mickey is not a valid username. Either you misspelled it, or the person has not registered for a Bugzilla account. |
| 17:50.55 | moribus | roh: what is the real user? or should I use default? |
| 17:51.31 | *** join/#openmoko fabiand (n=fabiand@195.90.12.213) |
| 17:51.49 | *** join/#openmoko moribus (n=knassar@cpe-76-171-169-80.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 17:52.06 | moribus | roh: what is the real username for micky? or should I just use default? |
| 17:52.18 | roh | mickey@vanille-media.de afaik. if it does not work use default |
| 17:52.42 | guaqua | .. |
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| 17:53.13 | moribus | roh: have any of my messages come through? gaim keeps crashing.... |
| 17:53.42 | SpeedEvil | moribus: several recently from you |
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| 17:53.53 | moribus | haha |
| 17:53.54 | SpeedEvil | moribus: <moribus> roh: what is the real username for micky? ... |
| 17:54.00 | moribus | exactly |
| 17:54.01 | moribus | thx |
| 17:54.02 | moribus | ? |
| 17:54.09 | roh | vanille-media.de |
| 17:54.13 | *** join/#openmoko waecky (n=waecky@p549CDC66.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:54.20 | roh | argh |
| 17:54.22 | roh | mickey@vanille-media.de |
| 17:54.34 | waecky | hi |
| 17:55.02 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 629 has been created by karim.nassar(AT)acm.org |
| 17:55.02 | moribus | http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=629 |
| 17:55.03 | cdbot2 | * * Berkely db recipe URL bad |
| 17:55.04 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=629 |
| 17:55.09 | moribus | haha |
| 17:55.19 | moribus | ttyl everyone. gotta go to work now |
| 17:55.21 | roh | moribus tnx |
| 17:55.23 | ewon | o/ |
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| 17:55.31 | *** part/#openmoko moribus (n=knassar@cpe-76-171-169-80.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 17:58.38 | aloril | (script) planet: Michael "mickeyl" Lauer: EFL related work http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/07/05/efl-related-work/ |
| 17:58.38 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_Hardware/de]] [[Advertising]] [[Wishlist:Games]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware]] |
| 18:00.38 | Kensan | moribus: did you try with one of the three "static" servers (download-west.oracle.com, download-east.oracle.com, download-uk.oracle.com)? |
| 18:02.32 | Basheri | yay |
| 18:02.52 | Basheri | I downgraded to feisty |
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| 18:29.05 | aloril | roh: I suspect 10-50% of buyers might buy advanced kit, while most don't actually need it |
| 18:29.28 | aloril | for example I saw some person here saying something like 5 basic, 5 advanced for their developers |
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| 18:30.19 | aloril | unless all of those 5 are doing u-boot work or kernel work that needs console it doesn't make sense: one debug board should be enough to unbrick devices ;-) |
| 18:30.32 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@betelgeuse.theinternetco.net) |
| 18:31.02 | wyatt_earp | greetings, is there a wiki page that has all of the anticipated/launch applications provided by the OS? |
| 18:31.03 | aloril | wyatt_earp: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 18:31.50 | aloril | hmm... that changes and also you can install many more |
| 18:31.52 | *** join/#openmoko ScaredyCat (n=ScaredyC@ACBC6FCB.ipt.aol.com) |
| 18:32.02 | SpeedEvil | the applications page wyatt_earp |
| 18:32.10 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@38.98.11.186) |
| 18:33.15 | aloril | and http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages |
| 18:33.30 | wyatt_earp | cool, thanks. i've been surfing through the dev projects hosting area and only saw a few listed in the planning and figured that wasn't enough :-) |
| 18:35.26 | aloril | in general: many of programs you run on your Linux using distro ;-) |
| 18:36.08 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACB60AB3.ipt.aol.com) |
| 18:36.36 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@p508D82BC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:37.12 | Basheri | ttp://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages |
| 18:37.17 | aloril | (unless they demand too much memory, speed and/or screen size or assume i386 stuff (later case you need to port, former case optimize)) |
| 18:37.25 | Basheri | oops |
| 18:37.30 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 18:39.34 | aloril | roh: what I pursue with above is that you might not have enough debug boards to fill advanced orders at start ;-) |
| 18:39.36 | wyatt_earp | well, i was looking through and noticed the webbrowser hadn't been defined (at least according to the wiki) and was trying to see what it was going to be |
| 18:40.04 | aloril | roh: also you might want to have some blurb about when you need advanced kit in ordering page |
| 18:41.18 | aloril | wyatt_earp: most development seems to be for using webkit |
| 18:42.52 | wyatt_earp | cool, that would provide a nice JS engine and everything. got what i needed to know, thanks all |
| 18:43.06 | *** part/#openmoko wyatt_earp (n=NealWy@cpe-71-64-201-233.cinci.res.rr.com) |
| 18:44.57 | *** join/#openmoko griott (n=griott@cpattillo.manquehue.net) |
| 18:46.40 | roh | aloril we'll see |
| 18:48.56 | *** join/#openmoko evanpro (n=evan@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) |
| 18:50.44 | *** join/#openmoko summatus|PDA (n=jake@166.227.129.16) |
| 19:01.36 | aloril | T-Mobile supports VOIP: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/05/technology/circuits/05pogue.html?ei=5090&en=39e3cc8226651f90&ex=1341288000&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print |
| 19:02.57 | orospakr | aloril, alas, that wasn't what I hoped it would be. |
| 19:03.13 | orospakr | it would be nice if a carrier offered a data plan that was usable with VOIP software. :) |
| 19:03.38 | aloril | yeah, a bit different, but still interesting news |
| 19:04.21 | aloril | and if they open handover protocol then would achieve that too |
| 19:04.53 | aloril | though they need to fix that "billing system isn’t smart enough to notice handoffs between Wi-Fi and cellular networks" |
| 19:05.01 | summatus|PDA | apparently there is a way to use the $6 data plan that tmobile offers working w/ the neo |
| 19:06.19 | *** part/#openmoko griott (n=griott@cpattillo.manquehue.net) |
| 19:06.26 | galexande | IP over bluetooth is totally pedestrian, right? |
| 19:06.36 | guaqua | pedestrian? |
| 19:06.43 | galexande | i.e., normal use of bluetooth |
| 19:06.50 | galexande | rather than an insane hack |
| 19:07.12 | aloril | yes |
| 19:07.16 | galexande | thx :) |
| 19:08.12 | *** join/#openmoko Freed (n=jecsar@mac33-2-82-225-98-209.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 19:08.35 | sixfeet | hoi käptain pingu^^ |
| 19:10.20 | *** part/#openmoko nep (n=schreine@p54A43E54.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:12.28 | *** join/#openmoko schurig_home (n=schurig@p54B2942B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:15.02 | ScaredyCat | pingu! |
| 19:15.15 | ScaredyCat | naak naak |
| 19:17.16 | ewon | ook |
| 19:18.00 | *** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 19:19.32 | ScaredyCat | summatus|PDA, why do you think that you'd need to do anything special ? |
| 19:23.49 | *** join/#openmoko lynx (n=lynx@port-87-234-114-48.dynamic.qsc.de) |
| 19:26.03 | *** join/#openmoko yacc (n=andreas@p7423e3d4.np.gmx.net) |
| 19:26.48 | galexande | waiting sucks |
| 19:26.49 | juri_ | code. ;) |
| 19:27.10 | ewon | wait wait wait |
| 19:27.23 | ewon | sorry, this is far too nerdy a channel t possibly have a woman in it |
| 19:27.31 | ewon | unless you're Val Henson ord |
| 19:27.35 | ewon | s/ord/ors/ |
| 19:27.35 | ScaredyCat | roflmao |
| 19:27.55 | ewon | apologies, a lame joke I know |
| 19:28.06 | juri_ | i'm just here for the phone. trust me, after i get two, i'm gone. :) |
| 19:28.24 | ewon | my, how she shot me down in flames. good times. |
| 19:28.26 | ScaredyCat | you mean Jim :P |
| 19:28.47 | ewon | heh :) |
| 19:29.11 | *** join/#openmoko kristian-m (i=kristian@217.13.205.113) |
| 19:29.14 | kristian-m | hi |
| 19:29.22 | ScaredyCat | on monday, I shall mostly be using F5 |
| 19:30.42 | ScaredyCat | since there's such a short supply |
| 19:30.51 | juri_ | that might make sense. |
| 19:30.56 | galexande | i wonder why there isn't some romanticized cellphone phreaking rennaissance going on |
| 19:31.17 | ewon | because the gsm module is closed :) |
| 19:31.17 | drath | are you really sure that sooo many people want the GTA01? |
| 19:31.24 | galexande | i do i do i do |
| 19:31.34 | ScaredyCat | drath, I think so.... |
| 19:31.45 | ewon | I love my job. |
| 19:31.50 | ScaredyCat | unfortunately, I think some 'users' will be buying tooo |
| 19:32.00 | ewon | "we sending you to LA or Vancouver next month. We're not sure which yet" |
| 19:32.00 | galexande | i want one so badly that i just passed the time reading an iphone review, smiling with glee at how shitty and limited its software is |
| 19:32.08 | SpeedEvil | GSM module being open would in fact make it illegal to own in some countries. |
| 19:32.25 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@betelgeuse.theinternetco.net) |
| 19:32.26 | ewon | rightly so |
| 19:32.33 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 19:32.40 | galexande | and became excited to see on the OM mailing list "is IM app over data or SMS?" answered with "what IM app?" |
| 19:32.41 | ewon | given gsm is TDM, you could do some serious fucking around |
| 19:32.42 | SpeedEvil | GSM isn't designed to be DOS resistant. |
| 19:32.50 | XXLT | lol |
| 19:33.30 | ewon | "you mother sucks cock in hell! this is *my* timeslice!" etc |
| 19:33.47 | ScaredyCat | ! |
| 19:33.57 | SpeedEvil | ewon: not to mention people doing phone-phone comms. |
| 19:34.05 | ewon | SpeedEvil: indeed |
| 19:34.06 | SpeedEvil | Which will _really_ screw up the network. |
| 19:34.15 | ewon | I imagine it would become quite distressed |
| 19:34.34 | SpeedEvil | When 60Ghz becomes practical, that sort of thing becomes possible. |
| 19:34.49 | SpeedEvil | As the signal is absorbed mostly in a kilometer or so. |
| 19:35.09 | ewon | nice |
| 19:35.12 | galexande | i hope there are not too many people buying the gta01 expecting a product |
| 19:35.19 | aloril | quite expensive encryption: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/29/technology/29cnd-encrypt.html?ex=1335499200&en=aa06d98a600afc6f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss |
| 19:35.20 | galexande | i imagine a couple of them posting reviews could really give us a bad name |
| 19:35.33 | SpeedEvil | There needs to be a _BIG_ page on the purchasing page that has to be read |
| 19:35.38 | Aria | Yeah. |
| 19:35.49 | SpeedEvil | and you need to type "this is not a functional phone" into a box |
| 19:35.50 | Aria | Big words saying "DEVELOPER's PRERELEASE KIT" |
| 19:35.59 | aloril | still no doubt some will not read it ;-) |
| 19:36.04 | ewon | "the thought of this phone should give you a hard-on. If it doesn't, go buy an iPhone" |
| 19:36.40 | ScaredyCat | errm... |
| 19:36.41 | galexande | i took a hammer to my last smart phone because its dialer app was closed source and buggy |
| 19:37.18 | galexande | so tight!!! |
| 19:37.39 | ewon | o0 |
| 19:37.44 | ScaredyCat | the fact that you *can* hump it does't flatter you. |
| 19:37.48 | ewon | lol |
| 19:37.52 | ewon | ScaredyCat++ |
| 19:38.15 | *** join/#openmoko khester (n=khester@c-24-4-236-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 19:38.51 | galexande | i'm all trepidated trying to decide if i will help complete the openmoko UI, or if I will just throw together something primitive |
| 19:39.55 | SpeedEvil | Throwing together something primitive also helps. |
| 19:40.11 | SpeedEvil | The more people can use the phone as well as dev on it... |
| 19:40.14 | ScaredyCat | yes |
| 19:40.41 | *** join/#openmoko freak132 (n=freak@bas3-stcatharines10-1178010289.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 19:54.14 | *** join/#openmoko arw (i=root@gateway/tor/x-47b3eae844eb8ebf) |
| 19:56.17 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-144-052.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 19:56.22 | arw | i've a question.. |
| 19:56.35 | arw | i was looking that: |
| 19:56.36 | arw | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/IPhone |
| 19:56.55 | *** join/#openmoko stryderjzw (n=stryderj@216.232.85.137) |
| 19:57.11 | arw | the feature say: wireless |
| 19:57.46 | *** join/#openmoko wookieface (n=benjamin@x1-6-00-03-2f-29-99-b9.k967.webspeed.dk) |
| 19:58.25 | arw | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:58.36 | Freed | no |
| 19:58.45 | galexande | arw, gta01 will have bluetooth and gsm, gta02 (to be released around november?) will also have 802.11b/g |
| 19:58.47 | Freed | advanced is just a tool pack |
| 19:58.56 | arw | mmm |
| 19:59.33 | *** join/#openmoko yveslu (n=yves@194.235.200.167) |
| 19:59.38 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/ru]] |
| 20:00.05 | arw | ok |
| 20:00.35 | arw | novemberr... umm |
| 20:01.12 | arw | thak you galexande and Freed |
| 20:02.06 | arw | question: |
| 20:02.07 | arw | openmoko is totally open.. |
| 20:02.13 | arw | i mea.. open hardware too? |
| 20:02.26 | galexande | arw, parts of the hardware are closed, but for the most part the open philosophy influences the hardware |
| 20:02.55 | aloril | arw: more clear now? (edited [[IPhone]] page about wireless) |
| 20:03.19 | galexande | like, there is a debug port with jtag ability built in, and unused i/o pins are exposed and documented in case you want to add something |
| 20:04.01 | *** part/#openmoko yveslu (n=yves@194.235.200.167) |
| 20:04.24 | *** join/#openmoko lrg_ (n=liam@lrg2.demon.co.uk) |
| 20:04.28 | arw | yes, |
| 20:04.35 | arw | aloril yes, :) |
| 20:05.19 | arw | galexande: if i want to know the schematic? |
| 20:05.31 | *** join/#openmoko Moo^^ (n=moo@oul110-gw4.netplaza.fi) |
| 20:05.50 | galexande | arw, i don't know. at least parts of the board (like the gsm chipset) are covered by nda, so probably not complete schematics |
| 20:06.15 | arw | mmm |
| 20:06.31 | aloril | arw: might happen (with exception of what is covered by NDA as galexande) |
| 20:06.34 | *** join/#openmoko phed_ (n=phed@obg2.rits.idcomnet.no) |
| 20:06.49 | arw | ok, |
| 20:06.53 | phed_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:06.53 | aloril | arw: but I don't know ..., just recall somebody saying something vaguely along those lines |
| 20:06.55 | arw | other question.. |
| 20:07.31 | mjr | phed_, well sure, it's a good idea, but they're milking $10 per month for the privilege |
| 20:07.35 | Freed | there provided by other co. |
| 20:07.53 | arw | ok, but could be a usefull info :) |
| 20:08.47 | arw | if i want to connect some device to communicate with gsm... |
| 20:08.50 | mjr | (plus, wifi calls aren't something you want to be stuck with, but that's presumably not a problem with that phone) |
| 20:09.09 | arw | can ido? |
| 20:09.27 | Freed | mjr: there is alredy here in fanal user hands (france) |
| 20:09.29 | mjr | arw, what do you mean? |
| 20:09.32 | Freed | *final |
| 20:10.03 | arw | immposible? |
| 20:10.04 | arw | maybe? |
| 20:10.06 | arw | crazy? :) |
| 20:10.06 | mjr | Freed, "end user", btw |
| 20:10.30 | mjr | arw, "what do you mean"? |
| 20:12.07 | arw | mjr: can i connect something to gsm interface ? |
| 20:12.11 | aloril | arw: do you mean "use it to connect laptop to internet?" answer for that is yes |
| 20:12.34 | mjr | arw, physically? I doubt that, but don't know. |
| 20:12.35 | arw | no |
| 20:12.46 | mjr | well, easily, anyhow |
| 20:12.51 | arw | yes, physically |
| 20:13.01 | aloril | arw: its seen as modem over UART using standard AT commands from OpenMoko side |
| 20:13.14 | arw | hack physically the device |
| 20:13.30 | SpeedEvil | Can't do that. |
| 20:13.35 | aloril | arw: you could relay that serial port |
| 20:13.45 | galexande | arw, if you want just a gsm chipset without the phone, you can buy that at sparkfun... |
| 20:13.50 | SpeedEvil | You can get the serial port - it's even exposed on the debug port. |
| 20:13.57 | aloril | (over bluetooth, usb (and wifi in GTA02)) |
| 20:14.20 | galexande | what is with the name "neo1973" anyways? |
| 20:14.25 | mjr | SpeedEvil, ah, that's an interesting tidbit |
| 20:14.26 | arw | use the serial port is not usefull to do tha i want .. |
| 20:14.31 | ScaredyCat | neo =new |
| 20:14.38 | mjr | arw, what do you want to do? |
| 20:14.44 | seemant | and 1973? |
| 20:14.45 | arw | and i nedd |
| 20:14.46 | ScaredyCat | 1973 = year of 1st mobile phone |
| 20:14.50 | galexande | ah |
| 20:14.52 | seemant | seriously? |
| 20:14.57 | arw | :( |
| 20:14.58 | mjr | seriously. |
| 20:15.03 | mjr | re-inventing the mobile phone |
| 20:15.12 | arw | galexande: i want the phone ... |
| 20:16.23 | arw | mjr: is a dream |
| 20:16.36 | galexande | the gsm has 3 interfaces...an antenna, a UART (serial), and analog audio in/out, and on the neo you can control all 3 of those with software, sky's the limit |
| 20:17.04 | galexande | (you could turn the neo into an auto-dialing recorded message telemarketing machine) |
| 20:17.12 | arw | 1973 .. |
| 20:17.36 | mjr | galexande, yeah, and yay to that! |
| 20:19.26 | ScaredyCat | "Dr. Martin Cooper of Motorola, made the first US analogue mobile phone call on a larger prototype model in 1973." |
| 20:19.58 | arw | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973 |
| 20:19.58 | arw | galexande: can i talk with the gsm using its UART |
| 20:20.19 | arw | ? |
| 20:20.21 | galexande | arw, yeah, the UART shows up as a /dev/ttysomething |
| 20:20.24 | galexande | just like a regular modem |
| 20:20.48 | SpeedEvil | It's also available on the debug connector. |
| 20:20.53 | SpeedEvil | But that'd be silly |
| 20:21.14 | SpeedEvil | You cannot use the modem for GSM hacking, or getting free calls. |
| 20:21.18 | arw | galexande:and physically? |
| 20:21.43 | arw | from wikipedia: |
| 20:21.44 | arw | April 3 - The first handheld cellular phone call made by Martin Cooper, who conceived the phone, in New York City |
| 20:21.45 | SpeedEvil | (free calls othre than any free calls your network provider may supply) |
| 20:21.48 | *** join/#openmoko denis^da (n=denis@p54929588.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 20:21.56 | galexande | arw, yeah, the UART pins are routed to the debug connector |
| 20:22.07 | arw | i do not want free calls |
| 20:22.25 | galexande | i do |
| 20:22.59 | arw | i want secure calls. |
| 20:23.10 | SpeedEvil | arw: problem. |
| 20:23.25 | SpeedEvil | arw: basically, we only get the GSM coded data |
| 20:23.34 | SpeedEvil | and the modem does all the audio coding. |
| 20:23.39 | mjr | arw, read the openmoko-community archives |
| 20:23.44 | SpeedEvil | So - either you do GPRS - which has horrible delays. |
| 20:23.54 | SpeedEvil | Or, you do direct data calls, which are often expensive. |
| 20:24.22 | mjr | arw, you know, all this could've been a lot easier if you'd told us what you actually wanted instead of going on about access to the gsm chip connectors |
| 20:24.35 | aloril | or you encode data over GSM voice calls using something like vocoder |
| 20:24.35 | SpeedEvil | Or you do horrible transcoding from data - >fake voice - > GSM modem - > GSM network -> GSM modem -> voice -> voice-recogniser -> data |
| 20:24.50 | SpeedEvil | This can actually get 1+kbits/second. |
| 20:25.00 | aloril | voice -> data -> using vocoder into voice and send this to modem |
| 20:25.17 | mjr | anyway, encrypted voice on gsm-data is the most sane solution currently on the table |
| 20:25.18 | arw | some time ago, i did a design and make a harwdware device to make secure calls on phones |
| 20:25.47 | SpeedEvil | mjr: or 'push to talk' encrypted over GPRS and accept the 1 second or so delay |
| 20:25.51 | mjr | and it isn't necessarily ridiculously priced; I was surprised how cheap it is around here nowadays |
| 20:25.54 | SpeedEvil | arw: using data calls? |
| 20:26.00 | mjr | SpeedEvil, oh yeah, that push to talk thing, sure |
| 20:26.05 | arw | now.. this is my intention to do with moko |
| 20:26.41 | SpeedEvil | Basically, it's not possible other than with data calls at the moment to get it to work well. |
| 20:26.55 | SpeedEvil | And data calls also have the sucky training period AIUI. |
| 20:27.03 | mjr | training? |
| 20:27.32 | SpeedEvil | From what I heard, a GSM data call requires a training period in call setup, you don't get an instant data channel. |
| 20:27.36 | SpeedEvil | This may be incorrect. |
| 20:27.53 | SpeedEvil | As I've never done it. |
| 20:27.54 | arw | osorry i forget the english word... |
| 20:27.57 | *** join/#openmoko thomasg_gpm (n=thomasg@p57AFD552.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:28.53 | SpeedEvil | training is synchronising both modems before they can send data between them |
| 20:29.02 | arw | pst.. |
| 20:29.06 | arw | PST |
| 20:29.10 | arw | using a conventional phone line |
| 20:29.19 | arw | using modem |
| 20:29.22 | SpeedEvil | Oh - analog encryption? |
| 20:29.32 | arw | an using ogg codecs |
| 20:29.37 | SpeedEvil | You can't do that. |
| 20:29.40 | arw | both |
| 20:29.45 | arw | analog an digital |
| 20:29.51 | arw | yes i do that |
| 20:29.54 | SpeedEvil | Run an ordinary modem over GSM |
| 20:30.06 | mjr | arw, you probably don't know what analog encryption is, by the way |
| 20:30.17 | arw | no... |
| 20:30.22 | arw | over a conventional line phone |
| 20:30.27 | SpeedEvil | GSM throws away everything that does not sound like speech. |
| 20:30.33 | mjr | and yeah, you can do vorbis/theora encrypted comms via gsm-data, as discussed, but not over a voice channel |
| 20:30.34 | SpeedEvil | So you can't use normal modems. |
| 20:30.44 | SpeedEvil | Over the voice channel |
| 20:30.46 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@141.80-202-161.nextgentel.com) |
| 20:31.38 | arw | the voice channel... always you send a data |
| 20:31.50 | arw | data, data, data |
| 20:32.03 | galexande | i bet using the sound chip on the neo, you could do something crazy like invert the frequency spectrum within whatever band gsm does pass |
| 20:32.08 | *** join/#openmoko madewokherd (n=urk@c-24-3-53-185.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 20:32.34 | galexande | like say gsm passes 500hz-1500hz, you could run it through an fft, invert so 500hz becomes 1500hz, 600 becomes 1400, and so on, then ifft and playback. |
| 20:33.07 | SpeedEvil | No, you can't. |
| 20:33.14 | SpeedEvil | Because then that doesn't sound like speech. |
| 20:33.20 | SpeedEvil | And it gets thrown away., |
| 20:33.21 | galexande | oh i'm sure it'd be awful |
| 20:33.38 | arw | i want to sey a lot.. but my english is very bad.. sorry. |
| 20:33.46 | galexande | doesn't gsm just send through a narrow band? *shrug* |
| 20:33.49 | arw | why? |
| 20:33.54 | SpeedEvil | GSM is _very_ optimised for speech. Do anything that the human throat can't produce, and it's horrible. |
| 20:33.57 | galexande | i mean, hold music gets through gsm, though it sounds funny |
| 20:33.59 | arw | sey/say |
| 20:34.05 | mjr | arw, we already said such a thing would work over the data channel, with the mentioned caveats. Plus you don't need to hook up to the GSM chip to do it. |
| 20:34.14 | thomasg_gpm | SpeedEvil, not gsm is, the used codecs are |
| 20:34.19 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 20:34.28 | SpeedEvil | Which, as you can't pick the codec... |
| 20:34.37 | SpeedEvil | (in this case) |
| 20:34.46 | thomasg_gpm | and the bandwidth of the codecs is as less as needed for beeing good enough for speech |
| 20:34.46 | galexande | i bet the gsm module has a little DSP in it that you could reconfigure to do all this, if only itwere open :) |
| 20:34.56 | SpeedEvil | galexande: it does. |
| 20:34.57 | mjr | galexande, of course |
| 20:35.49 | arw | :-D |
| 20:35.56 | SpeedEvil | galexande: it would also be illegal to sell or own in the UK in that case. |
| 20:36.21 | galexande | it wouldn't exactly break my law-breaking cherry :) |
| 20:37.06 | *** join/#openmoko andy (n=andy@78.32.128.185) |
| 20:37.23 | arw | :) |
| 20:37.49 | edistar | ;) |
| 20:41.28 | aloril | is this correct?: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_Do_I_need_Neo_Advanced.3F |
| 20:41.40 | SpeedEvil | Probably - in what way? |
| 20:41.45 | SpeedEvil | IIRC I added that |
| 20:42.21 | SpeedEvil | Actually no - it's been altered. |
| 20:42.33 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@rikers.org) |
| 20:42.33 | aloril | SpeedEvil: umm.. you added it to Neo1973 page |
| 20:42.53 | SpeedEvil | Oh - that. |
| 20:42.54 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 20:43.12 | SpeedEvil | It looks accurate - as far as I can see |
| 20:43.31 | SpeedEvil | I would polish some of the grammer. |
| 20:43.38 | galexande | i hope i'll be able to order the advanced add-on after i brick my base. :) |
| 20:44.19 | SpeedEvil | I think it's safe to say that people will be offering unbricking services. |
| 20:44.38 | galexande | i still haven't bricked my ipaq, so *cross fingers* |
| 20:44.55 | aloril | main point is that flashing non working kernel/rootfs doesn't require debug board to unbrick |
| 20:45.10 | galexande | yeah, uboot looks awesome, i just hope i don't ever have to reflash it. |
| 20:45.22 | aloril | which I it seems many think is needed |
| 20:45.32 | SpeedEvil | reflashing working versions isn't a problem. |
| 20:45.40 | SpeedEvil | It's only if you screw up in some way |
| 20:46.11 | *** join/#openmoko pa-ching (i=pa-ching@nanoeng.ca) |
| 20:46.54 | galexande | yeah, if i screw up flashing uboot i assume that's the painful thing |
| 20:47.03 | aloril | right and that is mentioned there (tested image) |
| 20:47.12 | galexande | yeah |
| 20:47.15 | galexande | i'm talented though :) |
| 20:47.22 | aloril | same as screwing up PC BIOS update ;-) |
| 20:47.38 | galexande | when i screwed up my laptop bios, i pulled the chip and made a parallel port flasher |
| 20:47.39 | aloril | well.. except with Neo1973 you can unbrick with debug board |
| 20:47.55 | galexande | but i've flashed whatever compaq's uboot clone is...i've flashed that twice on my ipaq no problem so i'm optimistic. |
| 20:49.26 | aloril | GTA02 will have 'some deep u-boot in some additional flash chip' IIRC, so you can recover even from flashing wrong u-boot |
| 20:49.56 | aloril | but.. then you need to have debug-board anyway to develop password protection to that deep u-boot ;-) |
| 20:50.10 | LetoTo | So is it neccessary to pay the $150 for the debug board? |
| 20:50.14 | Aria | Oh, wow. The contacts applet looks really nice already. |
| 20:50.23 | galexande | leto, only if you intend to do a bunch of device driver development, probably |
| 20:50.33 | galexande | and even then probably not |
| 20:51.50 | SpeedEvil | aloril: does that update look sane? It scans better for me. (grammer) |
| 20:51.57 | SpeedEvil | If not, revert |
| 20:53.11 | aloril | SpeedEvil: yes, better, thanks! |
| 20:53.13 | arw | LetoTo: i hope to do soething with the debug board :) |
| 20:53.23 | arw | heheheh... |
| 20:53.27 | arw | if i can.. |
| 20:53.32 | SpeedEvil | I'm slightly tempted to get it - but I can't afford it. |
| 20:53.50 | SpeedEvil | I want to work out some scheme to only allow signed DFU |
| 20:53.53 | LetoTo | i hope to not need it :P |
| 20:54.06 | LetoTo | still not sure if i will buy the non-wifi version :( |
| 20:54.26 | aloril | faq is missing links to [[Applications]], http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages and some mention of webkit work being done by zecke and others |
| 20:56.02 | LetoTo | ohh, i did submit it. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=236297 |
| 20:56.25 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@mobile-166-214-210-185.mycingular.net) |
| 20:56.25 | arw | sorry, what is the meaning of : NDA |
| 20:56.41 | seemant | non-disclosure agreement |
| 20:56.41 | aloril | also " Q: Where can I find some type of tutorial for a 'Hello, world' on OpenMoko?" needs additional answer, but is there page in wiki about "how to cross compile and install that hello world program to Neo1973" ? |
| 20:57.43 | arw | mm... thank you |
| 21:01.40 | aloril | "What applications I can install?" or something like that is actually quite multilevel question: 1) what is included 2) what is installable trivially using ipkg 3) what is available at openembedded.org 4) linux programs in general (some which might need porting) 5) port from elsewhere 6) do it yourself |
| 21:02.40 | galexande | speed, DFU? |
| 21:02.57 | SpeedEvil | Something Firmware Update |
| 21:02.59 | SpeedEvil | over USB |
| 21:03.08 | aloril | 1 and 2 is quite small, 3) is pretty big, 4/5 is huge, 6 is unlimited |
| 21:03.22 | galexande | openmoko uses ipkg? is it derived from familiar? |
| 21:03.36 | SpeedEvil | Currently, anyone with a properly prepared laptop can with 30s with your neo boot their own OS, and copy all your stuff. |
| 21:03.50 | galexande | speed, paranoid :) |
| 21:04.07 | aloril | USB DFU (Universal Serial Bus Device Firmware Upgrade) |
| 21:05.13 | aloril | SpeedEvil: rootfs and homefs on encrypted filesystem residing on SD |
| 21:06.49 | SpeedEvil | aloril: and someone puts a virtualiser on your phone? |
| 21:07.46 | galexande | speed, in order to install it, they'd have to reboot,which means you'dhave to enter your password again? |
| 21:07.58 | galexande | i mean, i assume your encrypted filesystem will have a password |
| 21:08.43 | SpeedEvil | It works if whenever you find your phone has rebooted unexpectedly, you reflash it completely. |
| 21:08.53 | galexande | heh. |
| 21:08.58 | aloril | hmm... how to differentiate between battery low and "new u-boot, etc.. have been flashed even if SD is untouched" |
| 21:09.00 | galexande | but what about the compiler |
| 21:11.33 | aloril | SpeedEvil: hmm.. how do you make sure you have reflashed it completely? |
| 21:11.46 | SpeedEvil | JTAG |
| 21:11.50 | aloril | well.. use debug board and devirginator |
| 21:11.51 | aloril | hehe |
| 21:12.01 | SpeedEvil | Otherwise someone can edit u-boot too |
| 21:12.11 | aloril | yeah, that was my thought |
| 21:12.45 | galexande | what if they edited the compiler that was used to build the compiler that was used to build the compiler that you used to write your jtag verification utility? |
| 21:12.46 | SpeedEvil | I'd like to be able to lock mine so hard that I can't get into it with JTAG if I want. |
| 21:12.49 | arw | the moko (what a name ;) ) price , includes transpot? |
| 21:13.00 | arw | transport? |
| 21:13.03 | SpeedEvil | arw: probably noyt |
| 21:13.18 | aloril | requiring simple password for non standard boot should cover most cases though |
| 21:13.20 | arw | :( |
| 21:13.22 | *** join/#openmoko alp` (n=alp@host-87-74-21-228.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 21:13.31 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 21:13.37 | SpeedEvil | Or DFU |
| 21:13.45 | aloril | basically anything except default boot |
| 21:13.54 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby-n800 (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 21:14.14 | aloril | and default boot would ask password to further proceed into actual encrypted filesystem |
| 21:15.00 | aloril | + offer bounty for returning it + GPS tracking should cover a lot cases |
| 21:15.02 | Elrond | There's a bug on the DFU open. |
| 21:15.28 | Elrond | That is on "optional DFU". |
| 21:17.47 | arw | the at comands tha has the gsm is fully implemented? |
| 21:18.09 | arw | or.. for few thinks? |
| 21:18.13 | Elrond | arw - You mean in the gsm tools/llibraries? No. |
| 21:19.15 | arw | mmm |
| 21:19.26 | Elrond | I want this "software? The answer is no, unless you get somenoe t odo it or do it yourself" from SpeedEvil as a macro. ;o) |
| 21:19.28 | arw | thank you |
| 21:19.44 | Elrond | arw - What are you interested in specifically? |
| 21:21.05 | arw | Elrond: talk with gsm chip |
| 21:22.21 | arw | here all people give some advices |
| 21:22.21 | Elrond | arw - It's connected to a standard serial port. You can run minicom, if you want. |
| 21:22.24 | arw | give me |
| 21:23.05 | *** join/#openmoko alp (n=alp@host-87-74-21-228.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 21:23.44 | arw | ;) |
| 21:24.37 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=nrwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 21:25.14 | arw | thank you Elrond, SpeedEvil, mrj, aloril, galexande .., |
| 21:25.21 | arw | and all |
| 21:25.24 | arw | :) |
| 21:25.33 | arw | you are ver polite |
| 21:25.34 | arw | very |
| 21:25.50 | Elrond | :-) |
| 21:26.05 | Elrond | That's the top reason, why I like this project so much. |
| 21:27.07 | aloril | arw: see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AT_Commands and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GSM |
| 21:28.40 | arw | thaank... i'm looking |
| 21:28.42 | arw | :) |
| 21:29.04 | galexande | it's a bummer there's no AT command to get it to feed you the transmitted bytes instead of decoding it to audio |
| 21:29.48 | arw | :( |
| 21:32.17 | *** join/#openmoko fix_ (n=fix@cable-87-244-191-178.upc.chello.be) |
| 21:33.14 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - well :/ |
| 21:33.52 | SpeedEvil | As I understand it, that won't work very well. |
| 21:34.18 | SpeedEvil | From what I understand, the voice is not carried encoded on the phone operators network, it's decoded. |
| 21:34.34 | SpeedEvil | And may be renecoded with a different codec. |
| 21:35.35 | arw | :( |
| 21:36.02 | SpeedEvil | This could be incorrect, it's from things I've read in the background while looking up other stuff. |
| 21:36.12 | aloril | hmm.. why not use same codecs? simply 'decode' your encrypted stream into voice and let gsm encode it back |
| 21:36.51 | SpeedEvil | Because there isn't error protection on the link. |
| 21:37.02 | SpeedEvil | GSM and otehr codecs are designed to be error tollerant. |
| 21:37.29 | SpeedEvil | Also - it's computationally intractable to do that. |
| 21:38.53 | aloril | hmm... anyway, if true about decoding and encoding at network level, then: |
| 21:39.18 | aloril | voice -> data -> voice -> data -> voice |
| 21:39.21 | aloril | happens already |
| 21:39.32 | arw | someway.. someday 8-) |
| 21:39.32 | galexande | yeah aloril, it's just a pain |
| 21:39.56 | galexande | i mean with enough work you could develop a modem that works over (most) gsm cellphone connections |
| 21:40.03 | arw | voice->data-data->voice |
| 21:41.08 | aloril | arw: what if you encode it using some new encoding that old recipient phone doesn't support? |
| 21:42.08 | *** join/#openmoko BlackBsd (n=brian@72.168.193.117) |
| 21:42.12 | arw | good question |
| 21:42.37 | BlackBsd | hi will this device play ogg files? |
| 21:42.38 | aloril | BlackBsd: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 21:42.47 | galexande | black, sure why not? |
| 21:42.51 | arw | the user have to use.. openmoko |
| 21:45.02 | SpeedEvil | BlackBsd: yes, it can. There is currently no user friendly software to do so |
| 21:45.23 | BlackBsd | thats ok, im looking for a new phone. |
| 21:45.32 | *** join/#openmoko _kaiser_ (n=kaiser@74-140-187-27.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 21:45.34 | BlackBsd | should i watit till the second model comes out in october?? |
| 21:45.39 | SpeedEvil | aloril: arw: as I understand it, it can be the network operator that picks the codec. |
| 21:45.50 | SpeedEvil | BlackBsd: If you want a working phone, yes. |
| 21:46.06 | SpeedEvil | BlackBsd: if you want a portable linux box, with some prototype phone apps on it, no. |
| 21:46.25 | BlackBsd | oh i see.. |
| 21:46.41 | arw | SpeedEvil has the right |
| 21:47.11 | galexande | i want my portable damn linux box |
| 21:47.14 | galexande | why must i wait? |
| 21:47.18 | arw | the operator, can not understand the voice codec |
| 21:48.10 | BlackBsd | support firefox or some other browser? |
| 21:48.47 | galexande | black, firefox will probably be too memory-hoggish |
| 21:49.19 | arw | support gnome, it is not? |
| 21:49.33 | BlackBsd | i just want a phone that will sync my contacts and such.. |
| 21:49.42 | BlackBsd | mabye even browse the web... |
| 21:49.54 | SpeedEvil | It won't do that as yet |
| 21:49.55 | galexande | there's a web browser based on webkit that is in development.. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Web_Browser |
| 21:49.58 | SpeedEvil | It _might_ in a month. |
| 21:50.05 | SpeedEvil | I'd actually disagree about FF. |
| 21:50.12 | SpeedEvil | I currently run FF on a 128M machine |
| 21:50.23 | SpeedEvil | It is however several times slower. |
| 21:50.28 | BlackBsd | webkit is what kde4 is going to use... |
| 21:50.35 | SpeedEvil | But it will not be ideal. |
| 21:50.36 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@xdsl-87-78-110-127.netcologne.de) |
| 21:50.42 | galexande | speed, idon't get you...what kind of ouptimistic thinks someone will hack your phone with jtag...or what kind of pessimist runs firefox in 128M? |
| 21:51.05 | thomasg_gpm | firefox sucks and firefox in 128M is torture |
| 21:51.10 | thomasg_gpm | :) |
| 21:51.10 | galexande | arw, i don't know about "gnome" per se. it uses gtk, but the window manager is matchbox and i don't think it'll be running gnome's object exchange |
| 21:51.12 | BlackBsd | if i could, i would try to put ff on the phone.. |
| 21:51.19 | SpeedEvil | galexande: I have FF open on my laptop with 20 open tabs. |
| 21:51.28 | galexande | speed, you could try |
| 21:51.31 | SpeedEvil | galexande: it has 128M. |
| 21:51.31 | BlackBsd | dbus? |
| 21:51.33 | galexande | er, blackbsd, you could try |
| 21:51.46 | SpeedEvil | galexande: works acceptably fast. |
| 21:52.21 | juri_ | minimo? |
| 21:52.27 | BlackBsd | is it going to work with cingular/att in the US? |
| 21:52.40 | thomasg_gpm | currently some guys are writing on GdkLauncher, what seems to be a proof-of-concept gdk/webkit-browser |
| 21:52.43 | SpeedEvil | BlackBsd: it's a GSM phone. It'll work with any GSM network |
| 21:53.01 | BlackBsd | thanks, sorry for the lame questions.. |
| 21:53.21 | BlackBsd | i just took a iphone back because it was unfriendly... |
| 21:53.30 | BlackBsd | i didnt even record video |
| 21:53.44 | BlackBsd | and edge is slow... |
| 21:53.46 | arw | www.gnome.org/mobile/ |
| 21:54.00 | SpeedEvil | Neo doesn't support EDGE |
| 21:54.02 | SpeedEvil | Slower |
| 21:54.05 | arw | openmoko appears |
| 21:54.06 | SpeedEvil | And no camera |
| 21:54.31 | galexande | well, it runs gconfd, which is part of gnome i think |
| 21:54.41 | galexande | and dbus-daemon. |
| 21:55.12 | thomasg_gpm | dbus != gnome |
| 21:55.27 | BlackBsd | is a camera in the ideas pipeline for future? |
| 21:55.37 | SpeedEvil | Not on current roadmaps |
| 21:55.45 | SpeedEvil | more to be announced soon |
| 21:55.46 | thomasg_gpm | BlackBsd, it is, but not for the neo |
| 21:55.47 | *** join/#openmoko Philippe (n=fille@a91-153-17-113.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 21:55.57 | thomasg_gpm | maybe in a future device or a 3rd neo revision |
| 21:56.31 | BlackBsd | so there are going to be more than one phone type to choose from? |
| 21:56.32 | Kensan | arw, can you give some info on what you exactly want to do? Maybe some keywords or even links? |
| 21:56.44 | SpeedEvil | BlackBsd: eventually is the plan. |
| 21:56.48 | thomasg_gpm | BlackBsd, of course |
| 21:57.22 | thomasg_gpm | the neo is more a concept- or prototype-phone for the future open phoneplattforms of FIC. will see what they will do :) |
| 21:57.24 | *** join/#openmoko ruimoreira (n=rmoreira@87-196-144-23.net.novis.pt) |
| 21:57.38 | ruimoreira | hi there folks :D |
| 21:58.50 | arw | searching |
| 21:59.00 | thomasg_gpm | good morning/good evening/nice to see you |
| 21:59.38 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Advertising]] [[FAQ]] [[IPhone]] |
| 22:01.24 | ruimoreira | :D |
| 22:03.11 | *** part/#openmoko herbyle (n=pascal@p54A37046.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:08.03 | arw | Kensan: some like that: |
| 22:08.03 | arw | http://www.secvoice.com.br/en/?gclid=CKHhvNy1kY0CFRCoIwodwG3Oqg |
| 22:08.04 | arw | better: |
| 22:08.04 | arw | http://www.tccsecure.com/secure-mobile.html |
| 22:11.54 | arw | Kensan: http://www.transcrypt.com/Pages/Telephony/tele.html |
| 22:12.01 | arw | http://www.mot.com/GSS/SSTG/ISSPD/Secure_Telecom/Gov_Sensitive_Prod.html |
| 22:15.11 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@betelgeuse.theinternetco.net) |
| 22:15.32 | aloril2 | SpeedEvil: I assume problem is something like this: voice1 encoded using some GSM codec to data1 and voice2 -"- data2; diff(voice1, voice2)=small, diff(data1, data2)=big |
| 22:16.20 | SpeedEvil | Sorry - I'm too tired to read psuedocode. |
| 22:16.50 | ninHer | hi all |
| 22:16.52 | aloril2 | however, maybe its possible to discover exact codec being used ... |
| 22:17.12 | SpeedEvil | An additional problem is that there are errors in the middle. |
| 22:17.37 | SpeedEvil | the errors are inaudible, but they change the data. |
| 22:19.03 | aloril2 | SpeedEvil: just saying that maybe small difference in voice can cause big difference in encoded data? (I don't know) |
| 22:19.14 | SpeedEvil | Perhaps. |
| 22:20.05 | arw | the codec is the point... |
| 22:20.08 | *** join/#openmoko BlackBsd (n=brian@72.168.193.117) |
| 22:20.08 | SpeedEvil | the other problem is that reversing the GSM codec in software is somewhat similar to the halting problem |
| 22:20.31 | SpeedEvil | reversing the GSM codec to determine what data was in fact transmitted |
| 22:20.38 | SpeedEvil | it's made worse by the errors. |
| 22:23.28 | *** join/#openmoko BlackBsd (n=brian@72.168.193.117) |
| 22:23.45 | SpeedEvil | It's akin to viterbi coding, but with a horrible encryptor type thing in the middle |
| 22:24.21 | Kensan | arw, AFAIK that is not feasable at the moment since the GSM-part is on a different chip and not directly accessible from the application processore which runs openmoko. |
| 22:25.16 | Kensan | arw: see http://people.openmoko.org/sean/files/openmokogsm.pdf |
| 22:25.54 | arw | ok.. |
| 22:26.19 | *** join/#openmoko dkirker-work (i=11d5216d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-83cbd1fcd4343a93) |
| 22:26.38 | arw | as ever... all of you are very polite :) |
| 22:26.44 | *** join/#openmoko mosno (n=bmc@203-173-40-74.perm.iinet.net.au) |
| 22:26.52 | arw | thanks Kensan & SpeedEvil |
| 22:29.58 | Kensan | arw: IMHO for encrypted calls there's no real solution since the gsm chip will not be opened up any time soon... it seems that encrypted voip (with it's drawbacks) is one way to go. |
| 22:30.30 | mjr | gsm-data is a real solution, even if not completely optimal |
| 22:31.23 | arw | perhaps... my device could be insert between wm9784 codec an gsm chip |
| 22:31.46 | mjr | arw, inserting any device into neo for encrypted comms would be silly |
| 22:32.02 | mjr | what you can do, you can do in software |
| 22:32.13 | arw | sorry a question |
| 22:32.13 | arw | what is the meaning of IMHO & AFAIK |
| 22:32.36 | Vegar | In My Humble Opinion & As Far As I Know |
| 22:32.40 | mjr | and what you can't, you can't do with an addon |
| 22:33.14 | Kensan | mjr, why would that be silly? |
| 22:33.23 | mjr | Kensan, I already said it |
| 22:33.48 | mjr | "what you can do, you can do in software, and what you can't, you can't do with an addon" |
| 22:34.22 | Kensan | mjr, what if you need to do the realtime encryption in hardware because the application processor does not have enough power? |
| 22:34.24 | arw | thak you Vegar |
| 22:34.42 | mjr | then you're using a very inefficient cipher and should be shot |
| 22:37.13 | arw | 1024 bits is a «good» pgp |
| 22:39.01 | SpeedEvil | arw: you can't encode the audio |
| 22:39.12 | SpeedEvil | arw: it's analog as it hits the GSM modem |
| 22:39.17 | *** join/#openmoko Moo^^ (n=moo@oul110-gw1.netplaza.fi) |
| 22:39.21 | SpeedEvil | so if it's not voice-like, it's going to be massively corrupted. |
| 22:39.31 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby-away (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 22:40.02 | *** join/#openmoko webjames (n=james@82-46-37-48.cable.ubr01.nail.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 22:40.39 | *** join/#openmoko mindCrime (n=chatzill@cpe-065-190-188-124.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 22:45.19 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 22:50.33 | *** join/#openmoko daniel_bergamini (n=danieber@72-173-29-214.cust.wildblue.net) |
| 22:51.49 | BlackBsd | will the PIM have some standards that its uses for fomats and such? |
| 22:52.55 | arw | SpeedEvil: i'm looking : http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#Audio |
| 22:54.35 | BlackBsd | so this phone will have gps? so i can use google maps to find out where I am at and where im going?> |
| 22:54.52 | ynezz | or where is you wife :p |
| 22:54.59 | arw | perhaps |
| 22:55.03 | ynezz | s/you/your/ |
| 22:55.04 | SpeedEvil | BlackBsd: in principle, yes, with a suitable data plan |
| 22:55.05 | arw | :) |
| 22:55.06 | BlackBsd | nice... |
| 22:55.11 | arw | heheheh |
| 22:55.18 | SpeedEvil | arw: you're looking - what? |
| 22:57.31 | *** join/#openmoko weez (n=weez@rrcs-24-173-249-242.sw.biz.rr.com) |
| 22:58.16 | arw | never mind |
| 22:58.20 | ynezz | i think, that you can modify voice with some filter and then use the filter on receiving side also |
| 22:58.32 | arw | ¿exist wm9784 data sheet? |
| 23:00.13 | SpeedEvil | ynezz: yes. |
| 23:00.17 | *** join/#openmoko linux_galore (n=Richard@dsl-220-253-67-149.NSW.netspace.net.au) |
| 23:00.23 | SpeedEvil | ynezz: both sides can go through the CPU - effectively. |
| 23:00.43 | *** part/#openmoko wansti (n=wansti@b131.apm.etc.tu-bs.de) |
| 23:00.45 | SpeedEvil | Leading to such interesting possibilities as per-caller voice pitch changing or loudness alteration. |
| 23:01.00 | SpeedEvil | For those that don't speak loudly enough, or have annoyingly high voices. |
| 23:01.16 | ynezz | or you want to change a voice for some reason :p |
| 23:02.02 | ynezz | so i think, that you can apply some kind of scrambler-like filter |
| 23:02.14 | ynezz | it's not encryption, but also no pure voice |
| 23:02.42 | ynezz | better then nothing |
| 23:03.10 | SpeedEvil | The problem is that GSM is designed to throw away everything that isn't like voice. |
| 23:03.20 | SpeedEvil | the codecs typically used that is. |
| 23:03.25 | mjr | You can scramble to sound like a cylon. You can't scramble to be uneavesdroppable. |
| 23:03.36 | SpeedEvil | So if you transform the voice to a not-voice like signal, it won't go through |
| 23:03.40 | SpeedEvil | yeah - you can do that |
| 23:04.32 | SpeedEvil | Well. |
| 23:04.36 | SpeedEvil | The old cylons. |
| 23:04.40 | SpeedEvil | Not the new ones. |
| 23:05.10 | SpeedEvil | Voice changing filters that work to make you sound like someone else well are moderately tricky |
| 23:05.15 | ynezz | well you can prerecord the talk, scramble, save, call, replay |
| 23:05.16 | mjr | not bio-cylons, certainly |
| 23:05.31 | ynezz | receiver will record, descramble, play |
| 23:05.36 | mjr | *sigh* |
| 23:05.59 | mjr | sounds like push-to-talk. Yes, you can do that. With a data connection. |
| 23:06.33 | ynezz | why data? |
| 23:06.47 | ynezz | i'm talking about voice |
| 23:06.56 | mjr | but would everyone PLEASE, for fuck's sake, stop talking about scrambling the voice channel when you don't have a FUCKIN' CLUE |
| 23:07.12 | mjr | (I think I just lost my politeness points for today) |
| 23:07.32 | ynezz | we have /ignore in irc client for this |
| 23:07.59 | mjr | I'd like to think that you may have something worthwhile to say in the future, in addition to this nonsense |
| 23:08.12 | ynezz | :p |
| 23:08.20 | mjr | plus, it makes it harder to follow the channel to not see everyone's comments |
| 23:08.25 | arw | wm9784 is a chip? |
| 23:08.30 | ynezz | i talk crap all the time, you won't miss anything |
| 23:08.36 | SpeedEvil | arw: it's the sound chip. |
| 23:08.54 | ynezz | i don't understand how the codec knows what I'm saying |
| 23:09.01 | SpeedEvil | ynezz: it doesn't. |
| 23:09.10 | SpeedEvil | ynezz: it's designed to code voice. |
| 23:09.14 | mjr | plus, it hurts my head to even think that you're still continuing to be blissfully ignorant of everything we have put to you in plain words here and still think your "scrambling" will work |
| 23:09.17 | arw | and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#Audio |
| 23:09.21 | arw | is the same? |
| 23:09.24 | ynezz | if I say "fuckin" or if i say "inckuf" |
| 23:09.28 | SpeedEvil | ynezz: as a side-effect of this, it throws stuff that does not sound like voice away |
| 23:09.31 | ynezz | it same for the codec i think |
| 23:11.19 | SpeedEvil | arw: is whjat the same? |
| 23:11.29 | ynezz | so if i record a phrase "openmoko rocks" and make it sound like "rkomoc penos" |
| 23:12.01 | SpeedEvil | ynezz: yes - you can do that - but you then also need to send the data on how it's decrypted. |
| 23:12.14 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 23:12.16 | ynezz | it will be preshared algo |
| 23:12.18 | daMaestro | counter? |
| 23:12.19 | aloril | "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 3 days 12:47:41 (3.533±1.0 days) (1682;246) |
| 23:12.36 | daMaestro | does anyone know what the plan is for shipping costs/time/options? |
| 23:12.45 | SpeedEvil | daMaestro: unreleased |
| 23:12.57 | daMaestro | ok |
| 23:13.09 | daMaestro | i basically want to make sure i have a prepay account ready for when i get the device |
| 23:13.10 | arw | SpeedEvil: equals |
| 23:13.26 | Stephmw | ynezz: do some serious research on cryptography, what you're proposing is standard stuff |
| 23:13.32 | SpeedEvil | arw: what do you mean 'equals' ? |
| 23:13.46 | daMaestro | verizon is getting the boot as soon as i can move to a gsm network, and i'm going prepay until the phase2 device is out |
| 23:14.04 | ynezz | Stephmw: i know, but I don't know if it's possible with gsm codecs :p |
| 23:14.10 | daMaestro | i'll just most likely do tethered data over bluetooth or usb |
| 23:14.49 | Stephmw | ynezz: data is data is data... gsm just codes based on what's expected for voice. |
| 23:15.39 | ynezz | but "rkomoc penos", so it should work |
| 23:15.50 | Stephmw | it's still just data |
| 23:16.11 | Stephmw | write up your proposal on the wiki and discuss it on the mailing list |
| 23:16.16 | Stephmw | much easier |
| 23:16.28 | ynezz | i hope, that i could try it soon |
| 23:17.16 | arw | SpeedEvil: you say that wm9784 : it's the sound chip. |
| 23:17.18 | arw | and i ask |
| 23:17.19 | arw | is the same/equal chip from here: |
| 23:17.22 | arw | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#Audio |
| 23:19.32 | SpeedEvil | arw: yes - I diddn't remember the number, but remembered it was WM - that chip has changed I believe during revisions |
| 23:19.36 | SpeedEvil | arw: why? |
| 23:19.50 | SpeedEvil | arw: probably the neo1973 page is the best one |
| 23:20.02 | SpeedEvil | actually - that should be right |
| 23:20.21 | SpeedEvil | Sorry - tired. |
| 23:21.20 | arw | SpeedEvil: not worry |
| 23:21.25 | arw | do not worry |
| 23:21.26 | arw | why? |
| 23:21.42 | arw | is a insteresting.... thing :) |
| 23:22.37 | arw | ok...see ya |
| 23:22.39 | arw | i'm going at home :) |
| 23:22.51 | arw | see you |
| 23:22.56 | arw | thank to all |
| 23:25.20 | *** join/#openmoko DerCorny (n=corny@62.75.171.150) |
| 23:27.02 | *** join/#openmoko RedDog_ (n=reddog@mastersword.de) |
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| 23:31.23 | *** part/#openmoko attan (n=Attan@c-24-30-229-37.hsd1.va.comcast.net) |
| 23:34.47 | *** join/#openmoko rep (n=rep@vs187078.vserver.de) |
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| 23:40.55 | BlackBsd | will alot of common linux apps run on the phone? |
| 23:40.58 | BlackBsd | such as top |
| 23:41.09 | BlackBsd | or some terminal app? |
| 23:41.16 | Agrajag- | "a lot" might |
| 23:41.38 | BlackBsd | is this debian based?? or something new |
| 23:41.53 | BlackBsd | i seen a reference tot apt-get install ... |
| 23:43.22 | *** join/#openmoko lmveloso (n=lmveloso@200-193-152-9.mganm702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br) |
| 23:43.36 | SpeedEvil | xterm will run on it, so all terminal apps will |
| 23:43.39 | SpeedEvil | pretty much. |
| 23:43.45 | SpeedEvil | Modulo not having a keyboard |
| 23:43.59 | BlackBsd | nice.. |
| 23:44.00 | don-o | i plan on getting that little bluetooth keyboard |
| 23:44.05 | arnath | i have a question -> its a touch screen ay? what happens when you put the phone to your ear? |
| 23:44.06 | aloril | arnath: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 23:44.17 | SpeedEvil | arnath: ear-touches |
| 23:44.22 | don-o | ha! |
| 23:44.29 | arnath | SpeedEvil: not sure what you mean? |
| 23:44.38 | don-o | SpeedEvil: wiggle your ear for volume up or down |
| 23:44.40 | SpeedEvil | you get touches registered from your ear |
| 23:44.52 | SpeedEvil | you have to ignore those in software |
| 23:44.56 | arnath | lol, seriously though :p |
| 23:45.06 | arnath | iphone solves this by shutting off the touchpad when you move it to your ear i believe |
| 23:45.10 | *** join/#openmoko Kpr|is|a|w|a|y| (n=kpr@adsl-68-123-227-30.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) |
| 23:45.15 | don-o | SpeedEvil: is there an 'ear' flag with each click? |
| 23:45.16 | arnath | does openmoko have anything similar or just have to be really careful? :| |
| 23:45.18 | Kpr|is|a|w|a|y| | I'm sorry, but I wanna say...this is sweet. |
| 23:45.26 | *** part/#openmoko Kpr|is|a|w|a|y| (n=kpr@adsl-68-123-227-30.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) |
| 23:45.27 | arnath | Kpr|is|a|w|a|y|: i agree |
| 23:45.29 | BlackBsd | this thing can tell the difference between finger touches and ear touches? |
| 23:45.36 | SpeedEvil | don-o: you'd really want at least a byte or so. |
| 23:45.51 | BlackBsd | lol |
| 23:45.52 | SpeedEvil | left ear, right ear, pinky, big left toe. |
| 23:46.02 | mjr | and, of course |
| 23:46.05 | mjr | the NAUGHTY_BIT |
| 23:46.41 | mjr | where the vibra will come in handy |
| 23:46.52 | don-o | the UI will have to scale up for well-endowed users |
| 23:47.11 | mjr | the users are geeks, it doesn't |
| 23:47.47 | mjr | well, maybe for the mass-market release |
| 23:49.05 | SpeedEvil | Got to cope with negatives too. |
| 23:49.29 | don-o | well... moving right along... the case mods seem to be a popular topic on the list. |
| 23:49.29 | mjr | women, you mean |
| 23:50.18 | mjr | But yeah. A latex pouch would be nice for the negatives |
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| 23:59.58 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[IPhone]] |
