| 00:01.48 | dcordes | stefan_schmidt, that's interesting. Good to see that you guys also work on different hardware and not concentrate only on the neo |
| 00:01.55 | axeeOo | I think I'm going to have a crack at getting OM emulated tomorrow, looks like great fun |
| 00:03.13 | axeeOo | I started writing a vi-inspired code writing tool for my Nokia 6630 with 'meh' results, it would be great to actually port it over to OM! |
| 00:03.30 | stefan_schmidt | dcordes: Many of us guys coming from the OpenEZX project (linux 2.6 on Motorola EZX mobiles). So not that surprising. |
| 00:04.26 | stefan_schmidt | dcordes: Once we are shipping the neo and the software gets in better shape we also work on other hw platforms in private. |
| 00:06.16 | SpeedEvil | dcordes: Sure - once you find out or port the GSM daemon to do it. |
| 00:06.16 | SpeedEvil | dcordes: At the moment, there is little work getting it working on other platforms. |
| 00:06.48 | *** join/#openmoko SpeedEvil (n=fjfjfj@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) |
| 00:06.56 | SpeedEvil | Odd. |
| 00:06.58 | SpeedEvil | dcordes: There may be a problem - the OMAP 850 has the GSM bit on-chip |
| 00:07.42 | SpeedEvil | This means that there is _no_ documentation on the GSM part of the chip. |
| 00:08.35 | SpeedEvil | And that you basically can't legally use it. |
| 00:09.04 | SpeedEvil | As it's not an approved GSM device, in most legislations. |
| 00:09.42 | SpeedEvil | Not to mention that an opensource GSM stack is a huge project of its own. |
| 00:10.14 | SpeedEvil | And that installing it may be a crime - even if you don't use it in some countries. |
| 00:11.11 | SpeedEvil | (UK - for example, it'd be covered under the mobile phone 'chipping' legislation - as an unauthorised modification of the phone |
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| 00:12.19 | dcordes | SpeedEvil, so I guess GSM devices have to be registred in most countries? |
| 00:12.30 | dcordes | with their software |
| 00:13.45 | SpeedEvil | Yes, you have to get the GSM device approved in most countris, before you can legally use it. |
| 00:14.10 | SpeedEvil | This is completely seperate from the fact that you don't have any docs for the GSM part of the chip, which is its own DSP. |
| 00:15.04 | SpeedEvil | The nasty part is that you know that everyone isn't a white-hat. |
| 00:15.33 | CoreDump | security by obscurity never works |
| 00:15.34 | SpeedEvil | And given an open GSM stack, and radio, you know that tehre will be a non-trivial number of people using it to get free calls. |
| 00:15.52 | SpeedEvil | GSM is _not_ a secure protocol though. |
| 00:16.02 | SpeedEvil | And security by obscurity does too work. |
| 00:16.29 | SpeedEvil | Look at the vast number of devices that would be nice to run linux on, but haven't been done, as noone can work out the hardware easily. |
| 00:17.25 | dcordes | SpeedEvil, so the gsmd on openmoko isn't really open? |
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| 00:17.43 | SpeedEvil | The modem on the Neo is talked to via AT commands |
| 00:17.49 | SpeedEvil | it's a canned pre-approved module. |
| 00:17.58 | SpeedEvil | Which side-steps these sorts of problems. |
| 00:18.39 | SpeedEvil | Yes, there are nice fun things that could be done with an open GSM stack. But these inherently include easy phone fraud. :/ |
| 00:18.58 | SpeedEvil | And DOS attacks against other phones, jamming, ... |
| 00:20.40 | CoreDump | well, the provider should fix their network |
| 00:20.49 | SpeedEvil | Err. |
| 00:20.58 | sixfeet | no shop insight .. i wont get a phone here in de? |
| 00:20.59 | CoreDump | The Bad Guys already have the full GSM specs |
| 00:21.12 | SpeedEvil | The protocol is fundamentally not designed to be secure against this sort of attack. |
| 00:21.24 | CoreDump | then it needs changing |
| 00:21.26 | SpeedEvil | You basically need to replace all the phones and networks. |
| 00:21.34 | CoreDump | keeping it "secret" solves nothing |
| 00:22.19 | CoreDump | sixfeet: trisoft.de might sell neos when they get released, ask them =) |
| 00:22.22 | SpeedEvil | Keeping it secret, and making it illegal to own, sell, or advertise devices for making fraudulent calls means that the profits are low enough that in most markets it's not worth it. |
| 00:22.43 | sixfeet | CoreDump, ok thx .. i 'll give a try |
| 00:22.53 | CoreDump | any bad guy w/ a deep breath or deep pockets already has the information |
| 00:22.59 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 00:23.04 | CoreDump | so it is pointless |
| 00:23.04 | SpeedEvil | you don't care about him. |
| 00:23.11 | CoreDump | actually yes I do |
| 00:23.21 | CoreDump | think big (as in war) |
| 00:23.41 | SpeedEvil | You care about the guy who mugs people, or does burglary for a living, and has no ethical problem with having a free phone. |
| 00:23.43 | CoreDump | every nation ca easily DOS the entire GSM network of its enemy |
| 00:24.27 | SpeedEvil | State actors can jam practically any network if they care to. |
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| 00:25.01 | CoreDump | it gets ugly if RANDOM_FANATICS_GROUP can do the same |
| 00:25.04 | SpeedEvil | Anyway, this is utterly irrelevant. |
| 00:25.28 | SpeedEvil | GSM networks are not going to vastly change the protocol to add authentication - they can't. |
| 00:25.48 | SpeedEvil | not authentication as such - cryptographic security on all packets I mean. |
| 00:26.11 | SpeedEvil | Future phone networks may do so. |
| 00:26.32 | SpeedEvil | There are sound reasons to try to avoid fully open radios though. |
| 00:26.49 | SpeedEvil | For example, two people using their phones to talk direct can _Really_ screw other users. |
| 00:28.23 | SpeedEvil | Spectrum is annoyingly scarce. |
| 00:30.23 | dcordes | SpeedEvil, is that gsm insecurity a new issue? |
| 00:37.28 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Look_%26_Feel]] |
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| 01:24.14 | apemux | i need a good umts linux smartphone... |
| 01:32.31 | SpeedEvil | Unlikely to be available in the next year or so - at least through FIC |
| 01:33.07 | SpeedEvil | The radios are more expensive, and also less widely used worldwide, so smaller market. |
| 01:37.33 | apemux | the hardware i want runs windows :( |
| 01:37.48 | apemux | i would be fine wiyh |
| 01:38.19 | apemux | withbthat if i had an opportunity to do some tedting of a linux stack |
| 01:38.56 | apemux | but it appears to me that openmoko is not a portable type of thing? |
| 01:43.03 | SpeedEvil | Yes, it's portable. |
| 01:43.17 | SpeedEvil | The problem is - it's not portable to stuff you have no documentation for. |
| 01:43.18 | hads | It's Linux |
| 01:43.39 | SpeedEvil | Unless you generate that documentation, or code drivers through reverse engineering. |
| 01:44.21 | SpeedEvil | OM can run on standard PCs, if you want to do that. |
| 01:48.00 | roh | hey.. you could even run it on some wireless-router with a option-umts-card in its cardbus and some tft on vga which is plugged via usb2 if needed... |
| 01:48.27 | roh | which does not mean i would recommend such a unhandy mobile phone solution |
| 01:55.32 | SpeedEvil | Are there any USB2->VGA thingies which work under linux? |
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| 02:15.10 | roh | SpeedEvil there are. some sis based one |
| 02:17.58 | SpeedEvil | Hmm - I'll look. I assume no USB1.1 ones? |
| 02:18.10 | SpeedEvil | (not expecting updates fast) |
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| 02:25.50 | happycube | i read usb 2.0 (high speed - some bastards call usb 1.1 "usb 2.0 full speed" ;) ) |
| 02:26.30 | happycube | so i'm not sure if the sis will even talk at usb 1.1 speed - they use a usb->pci bridge iirc |
| 02:33.25 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - some 802.11g dongles'll run at either 1.1 or 2 speeds - and do the right thing, as will some digital TV chips. |
| 02:38.28 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Press_Coverage]] |
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| 06:15.00 | jsmanrique | morning |
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| 06:17.43 | aloril2 | news counter is about 4.5 hours short, so if no news at sometime before past midday Wednesday, then going to add one day, but if that seems to run out too, then going to revert back to P1 counter |
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| 06:24.01 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 06:39.23 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] |
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| 06:45.38 | schurig | counter? |
| 06:45.38 | aloril | "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 02:37:11 (1.109±1.1 days) (1577;239) |
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| 06:55.18 | mjtanton | sudden, terrible idea! |
| 06:55.32 | mjtanton | What if people made ads with software like blender and what not |
| 06:55.38 | mjtanton | community advertisements |
| 06:55.42 | mjtanton | perhaps put on youtube |
| 06:55.50 | mjtanton | someone else probably came up with it already |
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| 08:07.24 | florian | good morning |
| 08:09.37 | jsmanrique | florian: good morning |
| 08:10.42 | florian | hi jsmanrique |
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| 08:38.46 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr]] [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo]] |
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| 08:40.41 | TRIsoft | morning |
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| 09:02.31 | TRIsoft | counter |
| 09:02.32 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 01:28:44 (1.062±1.1 days) (1578;240) |
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| 09:24.27 | aloril | (script) planet: Michael "mickeyl" Lauer: Back from first Taipei visit http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/06/25/back-from-first-taipei-visit/ |
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| 09:36.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 620 has been created by autobuild-reports(AT)openmoko.org |
| 09:36.02 | cdbot2 | * * openmoko-tasks-0.1+svnnow-r0_237-do_compile |
| 09:36.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=620 |
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| 10:34.14 | atalist | hi |
| 10:39.26 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Music_Player]] |
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| 10:52.36 | xkr47 | counter |
| 10:52.36 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 00:33:42 (1.023±1.0 days) (1579;240) |
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| 11:07.10 | Fletchwork | counter |
| 11:07.11 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 00:26:24 (1.018±1.0 days) (1580;240) |
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| 11:27.51 | Linux_Galore_ | Yo Yo |
| 11:28.19 | SpeedEvil | Write an applications page for the yo-yo emulator. |
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| 11:28.45 | Linux_Galore_ | :-0 |
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| 11:45.12 | cheesy | counter |
| 11:45.12 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 00:07:24 (1.005±1.0 days) (1581;240) |
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| 11:48.25 | aloril | SpeedEvil, Linux_Galore_ : or even better: write actual yo-yo emulator ;-) |
| 11:48.56 | guaqua | i want a lolcode interpreter with gtk bindings |
| 11:48.56 | guaqua | ' |
| 11:50.58 | aloril | makes even sense with GTA02 (assuming it will have accelerators) |
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| 12:01.27 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03njp * r2342 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/ (12 files in 3 dirs): |
| 12:01.27 | CIA-24 | openmoko: Port the dialer to use Dbus for single instance behaviour; Add a MokoDialer |
| 12:01.27 | CIA-24 | openmoko: object that wraps most of the dialer-main.c code; Emit signals over the bus, |
| 12:01.27 | CIA-24 | openmoko: allowing for other applications to respond to dialer events; Export methods over |
| 12:01.27 | CIA-24 | openmoko: Dbus to allow other applications to control the Dialer |
| 12:03.56 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03njp * r2343 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (Makefile.am moko-dialer-glue.h): Use a staticly-build dbus header file, instead of creating one at compile time |
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| 12:14.02 | Linux_Galore_ | hope the GTA02 has wifi |
| 12:14.37 | mjr | Signs point to yes. |
| 12:16.46 | xkr47 | mjr the 8ball :) |
| 12:19.46 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03njp * r2344 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/moko-dialer.c: Make sure dbus input args are const |
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| 12:22.33 | Linux_Galore_ | allot of the apps on th Nokia n800 should be pretty easy to port over |
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| 12:22.55 | guaqua | program logic, yes |
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| 12:23.26 | Linux_Galore_ | N800 has a nice media player (optional foss app) |
| 12:26.10 | Linux_Galore_ | what package manager will the openmoko be using ? |
| 12:26.23 | guaqua | ipkg packages |
| 12:27.07 | mmp | hmm, is someone working on ipkg optimizations, btw? |
| 12:27.25 | mmp | it tends to be quite slow with large db... |
| 12:27.26 | guaqua | what is there to optimize? |
| 12:27.35 | guaqua | oh |
| 12:27.40 | guaqua | dunno |
| 12:27.44 | koen | mmp: try a recent angstrom image |
| 12:27.47 | mmp | guaqua: search in local package database... |
| 12:28.06 | koen | mmp: although I still think people should look at optimizing dpkg and apt |
| 12:28.11 | mmp | koen: I heard something about sqlite backend... |
| 12:28.16 | koen | (and rewrite the perl parts in shell) |
| 12:28.44 | mmp | koen: hmm, perl parts into shell? Wouldn't it be faster to put them into C? |
| 12:28.56 | Linux_Galore_ | Im looking at the N800 repo and their all deb thats why Im curious |
| 12:28.57 | koen | that's another option |
| 12:29.00 | mmp | faster from performance PoV |
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| 12:31.02 | Linux_Galore_ | http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com/non-certified/ |
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| 12:34.58 | DukeOfURL | good morning. any news? |
| 12:35.50 | Sup3rkiddo | counter |
| 12:35.51 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 23:42:04 (0.988±1.0 days) (1582;240) |
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| 12:39.06 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Look_%26_Feel]] |
| 12:44.09 | aloril | 2 days + 4 hours and week has gone |
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| 12:46.23 | mmp | koen: Upgrading ipkg on root from 0.99.163-r3 to 0.99.163-r4... - I see just bump in package release - (I'm using armv5te) |
| 12:46.39 | koen | right |
| 12:46.50 | koen | and suddenly it's 20 times faster :) |
| 12:47.08 | mmp | not sure, ipkg list still takes ages... |
| 12:47.20 | mmp | hmm, maybe a century less:) |
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| 13:01.02 | pavelm | Hello everyone! |
| 13:01.10 | pavelm | ...and big thanks for python/gtk |
| 13:01.12 | paulproteus | Hi pavelm! |
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| 13:03.32 | hrw | hi pavelm |
| 13:06.07 | pavelm | hi, hrw! |
| 13:09.42 | Elrond | pavelm - Hi! |
| 13:10.35 | cheesy | hi Elrond |
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| 13:10.51 | Elrond | Hi cheesy |
| 13:15.50 | Elrond | BTW: Do we have some docs on the wiki on using gllin? |
| 13:16.20 | SpeedEvil | don't think so |
| 13:17.14 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS has brief examples |
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| 13:18.40 | pavelm | Hi, Elrond! |
| 13:18.46 | pavelm | I finally got python-gtk to work. |
| 13:18.57 | pavelm | So I have my mokomenu.py working. |
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| 13:20.00 | Elrond | pavelm - Ahh, nice. What is it doing? |
| 13:20.27 | pavelm | It can run dialer, play an mp3, etc... And it has haptic feedback :-) |
| 13:20.49 | zell1983 | pavelm, how does it run python-gtk on openmoko? |
| 13:20.56 | zell1983 | is it fast enough? |
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| 13:22.40 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Yeah, found that by now too. I'll try that in a chroot maybe today. :) |
| 13:26.45 | pavelm | zell1983: Fast enough yes.. but it is not _too_ fast. |
| 13:27.41 | Elrond | I hope it will be fast enough to display some curves... I want to create a scope-like thingy to display some raw data I get from the gps chip. ;o) |
| 13:28.33 | SpeedEvil | gnuplot! |
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| 13:29.37 | Elrond | hehe. :-) |
| 13:29.47 | Elrond | I want it in nearly real time. |
| 13:30.02 | Elrond | Like "change PRN here, watch data there". ;-) |
| 13:30.05 | xkr47 | Elrond, try my plot program: http://xkr47.outerspace.dyndns.org/progs/plot/ |
| 13:30.05 | xkr47 | :) |
| 13:30.14 | Hopscotch | Elrond: kill the x-server and access the framebuffer directly |
| 13:30.28 | Elrond | Hopscotch - From python?! |
| 13:30.43 | Hopscotch | Elrond: why not? |
| 13:30.46 | Elrond | Hopscotch - Creating input widgets?! |
| 13:30.54 | Elrond | xkr47 - *looking* |
| 13:31.03 | Hopscotch | Elrond: ok, widgets are a problem |
| 13:31.20 | Hopscotch | Elrond: can you do mmap in python? |
| 13:31.40 | xkr47 | my program reads data from files and can "tail" and update graph in realtime |
| 13:31.47 | zell1983 | pavelm, do you test only on the emulator or in the real device? |
| 13:31.54 | Elrond | Hopscotch - Probably. BUT: I want to concentrate on the gps stuff. Not on creating yet-an-other-GUI-Toolkit for fb. ;) |
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| 13:32.35 | Hopscotch | Elrond: ok, i just thought you want to set some pixels fast... |
| 13:32.36 | pavelm | elrond: pipe the raw data to the pc (over usb) and display data there? |
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| 13:33.47 | empty_mind | is there an irc channel to discuss pcb/hardware development ? |
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| 13:34.33 | Elrond | empty_mind - this channel is fine. I think. |
| 13:34.44 | SpeedEvil | ##electronics |
| 13:34.48 | Elrond | pavelm - Yeah, I was already considering to setup g_serial or so. :) |
| 13:35.06 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - With two "#"? |
| 13:35.09 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 13:35.19 | Elrond | Fun. |
| 13:35.38 | SpeedEvil | #electronics could in theory only be created by someone who had invented or controlled the whole field |
| 13:35.56 | SpeedEvil | Freenode rules |
| 13:36.23 | Elrond | Oh well. |
| 13:37.05 | Elrond | Anyway. I'm off for real work. ;-) |
| 13:37.35 | aloril | Hopscotch: doubt things are limited by X11 speed in Neo1973 (compared to going to framebuffer) |
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| 13:41.35 | pavelm | zel: python is "fast enough" on real device. |
| 13:41.46 | pavelm | elrond: just keep using network and get it out over tcp? |
| 13:43.25 | zell1983 | ok good! :) |
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| 13:45.23 | koen | xkr47: WTH is bsed? |
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| 13:45.50 | xkr47 | hmm you downloaded my plotter ?-) |
| 13:45.55 | koen | yes |
| 13:46.04 | koen | ubuntu doesn't have 'bsed' in any package |
| 13:46.11 | xkr47 | http://xkr47.outerspace.dyndns.org/tmp/bsed |
| 13:46.35 | xkr47 | it's my own little software, made a looong time ago.. probably there are standard unix tools that do it better nowadays :) |
| 13:47.09 | xkr47 | bsed = batch sed |
| 13:48.52 | xkr47 | the latest version doesn't compile on windows yet, but the next release will |
| 13:49.40 | xkr47 | (at least in cygwin) |
| 13:49.54 | xkr47 | there's also a mac version with a more mac-like gui |
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| 13:50.34 | niv_one_three | hi all , any custemer news? |
| 13:50.41 | niv_one_three | for when neo is out? |
| 13:51.07 | guaqua | see topic |
| 13:51.55 | xkr47 | (koen, afk, bb in a hour or so) |
| 13:52.28 | niv_one_three | thnaks guaqua |
| 13:52.44 | guaqua | np |
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| 13:57.45 | fabiand | 123123 |
| 13:57.51 | fabiand | test |
| 14:00.35 | cheesy | hi fabiand |
| 14:00.49 | cheesy | your test is successfull |
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| 14:12.43 | ninHer | hi all |
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| 14:14.52 | atalist | hi |
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| 14:32.16 | thomasg_ | no news today? :( |
| 14:32.25 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 14:33.05 | SpeedEvil | I think it's fair to say that the topic will rapidly reflect information., |
| 14:36.08 | koen | topics are urban myths like search engines |
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| 14:40.36 | Kal_Torak|work | If I can put a compiler on the OpenMoko, I could be stranded on a desert island and be happy. |
| 14:41.48 | koen | I'd rather have a machete and a tinderbox |
| 14:41.49 | ravan | Kal_Torak|work: what about the battery? |
| 14:42.28 | Kal_Torak|work | pffft, I'm sure it's got a good battery. |
| 14:42.52 | SpeedEvil | You'd want a solar charger at least. |
| 14:43.28 | Kal_Torak|work | Isn't it funny, whenever you ask people what they would want if stranded on said island, nobody EVER says "boat". |
| 14:43.28 | *** join/#openmoko mindCrime (n=chatzill@66.83.208.219.nw.nuvox.net) |
| 14:43.34 | ravan | and an internet connection so you can share the code |
| 14:43.40 | Kal_Torak|work | hm |
| 14:43.42 | Kal_Torak|work | Yeah. |
| 14:43.59 | SpeedEvil | 'Harem educated in desert island survival techniques' |
| 14:44.01 | Kal_Torak|work | Well, what I want is to be able to doodle at flash dev on a mobile device. |
| 14:44.14 | summatusmentis | hell, a decent internet connection, w/ your openmoko would get you off the island faster than a little dinghy boat |
| 14:44.22 | Kal_Torak|work | true |
| 14:44.23 | SpeedEvil | flash dev? |
| 14:44.29 | Kal_Torak|work | ... |
| 14:44.35 | Kal_Torak|work | Actionscript then? |
| 14:44.35 | aloril | Kal_Torak|work: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 14:44.40 | SpeedEvil | As in macromedia? |
| 14:44.51 | Kal_Torak|work | Ah, you try to brand it. |
| 14:44.58 | summatusmentis | ~lart Flash |
| 14:44.58 | apt | duct-tapes Flash to the floor and drools on him |
| 14:45.01 | *** join/#openmoko MagicFab (n=magicfab@ubuntu/member/magicfab) |
| 14:45.14 | summatusmentis | HATE@ flash |
| 14:45.20 | Kal_Torak|work | I agree. |
| 14:45.22 | Kal_Torak|work | For most things. |
| 14:45.32 | Kal_Torak|work | Flash has no business on normal websites. |
| 14:45.40 | Kal_Torak|work | But flash has it's place |
| 14:45.41 | SpeedEvil | You possibly don't want to do that, at least not without keyboard add-on. |
| 14:45.41 | ewon | christ, I hate actionscript |
| 14:45.55 | *** join/#openmoko cjb (n=cjb@pullcord.laptop.org) |
| 14:45.58 | SpeedEvil | Coding on 2.8" display is probably not much fun, unless you are nearsighted. |
| 14:46.01 | summatusmentis | actionscript == javascript right? |
| 14:46.04 | Kal_Torak|work | ... |
| 14:46.05 | Kal_Torak|work | No. |
| 14:46.18 | SpeedEvil | It can comfortably display 80*25 at 20cm or so |
| 14:46.22 | summatusmentis | no? then my teacher lied to me, w/e |
| 14:46.41 | koen | actionscript is for flash |
| 14:46.57 | summatusmentis | I know that, but I was told it's essentially the same language |
| 14:47.16 | Kal_Torak|work | Watch for the "essentially" trap. |
| 14:47.22 | summatusmentis | fair |
| 14:47.23 | koen | jsut like java and javascripts are the same language |
| 14:47.24 | Kal_Torak|work | I can prove that 1 is 99 that way. |
| 14:47.37 | Kal_Torak|work | 1 is essentially 2 in the grand scheme of things |
| 14:47.39 | Kal_Torak|work | 2 is almost 3 |
| 14:47.42 | Kal_Torak|work | :P |
| 14:48.06 | summatusmentis | Kal_Torak|work: :-D |
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| 14:54.16 | pavelm | ..bye bye! |
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| 15:03.08 | lrak | but Neo is not 3 |
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| 15:11.21 | bedboi | h ithere. |
| 15:11.38 | bedboi | same question as always, so I won't speak :) |
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| 15:30.53 | SrRaven | So,did anyone get tomtom Go working on neo1973 yet? |
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| 15:34.28 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 15:34.45 | SpeedEvil | Neglecting the fact it'd be a violation of the license. |
| 15:35.15 | SrRaven | buh |
| 15:35.22 | Kal_Torak|work | Wait, there are restrictions on an open project like this? |
| 15:35.34 | SpeedEvil | Well, yes. |
| 15:35.47 | SpeedEvil | You can't do whatever you want with copyrighted software. |
| 15:35.51 | koen | there are restrictions on closed projects like tomtom |
| 15:35.54 | SrRaven | it just got far more boring to me |
| 15:35.57 | SpeedEvil | Even if you install it on an opensourced OS |
| 15:36.19 | Kal_Torak|work | In a perfect world. |
| 15:36.22 | madwoota | software can now license what OS you choose to run it on ? |
| 15:36.24 | SpeedEvil | Just as you can't legally install autocad, even if you could get it to run. |
| 15:36.37 | schurig | SpeedEvil: if you bought a license, you can install it |
| 15:36.42 | SpeedEvil | (without an appropriate license) |
| 15:36.54 | SpeedEvil | schurig: but you can't buy that license from tomtom. |
| 15:36.54 | Kal_Torak|work | Software can /try/ to license and restrict anything. |
| 15:36.57 | SpeedEvil | They don't sell it. |
| 15:37.06 | madwoota | pfft |
| 15:37.08 | Kal_Torak|work | There are legal ways to avoid any software licenses. |
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| 15:37.37 | SpeedEvil | In some cases. |
| 15:37.55 | summatusmentis | is there any GPS software? It has GPS right? |
| 15:38.03 | SpeedEvil | It has GPS |
| 15:38.15 | SpeedEvil | there is basically no custom GPS software at this point. |
| 15:38.31 | Kal_Torak|work | What I'm waiting for is a suitable input device for the mobile world. |
| 15:38.34 | SrRaven | well theoreticly than,CAN you install tomtomgo on the neo1973 |
| 15:38.35 | SpeedEvil | You can get positions from the GPS just fine. |
| 15:38.49 | summatusmentis | ah, ok, that falls under the 'mass market' category? |
| 15:39.07 | SpeedEvil | SrRaven: in theory, with the appropriate software to make the OS lie to the software, probably, yes. |
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| 15:39.31 | SpeedEvil | summatusmentis: pretty much. Mapping - proper open-source maps may be decades off in many areas. |
| 15:39.59 | summatusmentis | :-/ bummer |
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| 15:40.09 | SpeedEvil | For example openstreetmap totally missed off my local town of 40K, and the nearest city of 140K had one road. |
| 15:40.13 | summatusmentis | so that's two 'cool' things that are not availale in OSS |
| 15:40.23 | SpeedEvil | The problem is that there are a couple of map providers globally. |
| 15:40.33 | SpeedEvil | And they won't sell to end users. |
| 15:40.33 | paulproteus | SpeedEvil, That's strange since I thought they used USGS data and that was good data for the US. |
| 15:40.44 | paulproteus | "they" == "open source map data sets" |
| 15:41.01 | koen | yeah, and everyone lives in the US |
| 15:41.05 | SpeedEvil | This may surprise you, but there are many areas that are not the US :) |
| 15:41.18 | koen | SpeedEvil: lies! |
| 15:41.45 | paulproteus | SpeedEvil, Oh, silly me. (-; |
| 15:41.55 | balrog-kun | canada is the only such area |
| 15:41.57 | madwoota | SrRaven - http://www.tomtom.com/page.php?Page=gpl |
| 15:41.59 | SpeedEvil | I'm not sure what the progress is with the import of the TIGER data from the US, into the OSM map - there were big problems last time it was tried. |
| 15:42.01 | paulproteus | SpeedEvil, Go petition your government to open up its .gov map data. |
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| 15:42.07 | buz | counter |
| 15:42.07 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 22:08:56 (0.923±0.9 days) (1583;240) |
| 15:42.18 | paulproteus | SpeedEvil, Right, TIGER, I had forgotten the name. |
| 15:42.22 | madwoota | :) |
| 15:42.27 | SpeedEvil | paulproteus: they have spun out ordinance survey into its own department which now gets no government funding. |
| 15:42.32 | SpeedEvil | It's entirely self-funded. |
| 15:42.47 | paulproteus | SpeedEvil, Wow, yikes, sorry to hear that. )-: |
| 15:42.56 | balrog-kun | seriously, i don't think we'll have to wait decades for good maps |
| 15:43.04 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: why not? |
| 15:43.09 | koen | here's a good map: http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2006/11/800px-reagan-digitised-poster.JPG |
| 15:43.25 | balrog-kun | one day something is closed-source and the next day it's opensource (and never the other way) |
| 15:43.51 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: The current openstreetmap 'planet' file is on the order of 300M, compressed. |
| 15:43.51 | balrog-kun | it's just a matter of what the marketting dept. of a big comapny X thinks brings more money |
| 15:43.58 | mjr | mass-adoption of gps is the best case currently for not having to wait forever |
| 15:44.19 | balrog-kun | and opensource does bring money |
| 15:44.34 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: It needs to be at least a hundred times that size, probably several thousand, to approach the detail of commercial maps. |
| 15:45.44 | balrog-kun | SpeedEvil: yeah, but there are commercial maps made by companies that even claim to support opensource all that they can, i don't think it's long till there're commercial opensource maps |
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| 15:45.56 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: like who? |
| 15:46.04 | balrog-kun | like google Inc. |
| 15:46.15 | SpeedEvil | Google does not make maps. |
| 15:46.30 | balrog-kun | well, it has data that can generate good maps |
| 15:46.30 | SpeedEvil | It is solely a provider of maps from map sellers. |
| 15:46.41 | SpeedEvil | It owns none of that data though. |
| 15:46.52 | SpeedEvil | It pays the companies for a license to show it to users. |
| 15:47.23 | SpeedEvil | They are the ones that go out (or subcontractors) and actually drive down roads checking names. |
| 15:47.30 | SpeedEvil | This is _expensive_. |
| 15:48.20 | paulproteus | It would be really cool if we could crowdsource it. |
| 15:48.30 | balrog-kun | SpeedEvil: hmm, true, but i still don't think it will be decades |
| 15:48.39 | mjr | aloril, *nod* |
| 15:48.46 | aloril | assuming easy support for it exists in mobile phones with gps |
| 15:48.49 | paulproteus | Ten people driving around one day of the weekend each month for each 100,000 people in a city would be really cool. |
| 15:49.23 | aloril | yeah, and you only need to create one cool gps using game that results in mapping -> won't take long |
| 15:49.33 | paulproteus | aloril++ |
| 15:49.53 | paulproteus | You could it the half-new data, half-verification way that e.g. recaptcha.net handles the issue. |
| 15:49.59 | paulproteus | s/could it/could do it/ |
| 15:50.31 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: there is a moble google maps program, that runs as a .jar(i've got it on my nokia 6265i), could that be used? |
| 15:50.34 | summatusmentis | not open source... |
| 15:50.57 | paulproteus | summatusmentis, "mobile google maps" program means it surely connects via some API to the Google Maps servers. |
| 15:51.11 | summatusmentis | probably |
| 15:51.16 | paulproteus | You could write a Free client that talked using the same API; just eavesdrop on the network communication the program uses or have someone decompile it and write an API spec. |
| 15:51.27 | paulproteus | (I volunteer for writing the spec if someone wants to write the alternate program.) |
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| 15:51.28 | balrog-kun | SpeedEvil: and expensive commercial things are also done for opensource sometimes, and that may be likely to happen when a really neat and expensive phone comes out that should contain good maps, i don't see why the manufacturer wouldn't contribute money for the maps |
| 15:51.36 | mjr | in can most likely be used, if somebody (TM) gets around to doing that j2me support |
| 15:51.44 | ewon | feh, j2me |
| 15:51.56 | summatusmentis | mjr: yeah, that's what my phone is using j2me |
| 15:51.59 | SpeedEvil | summatusmentis: Go and look at the google-maps terms and conditions. |
| 15:52.04 | mjr | it'll also be slow, 'cause it'll get the maps on-line |
| 15:52.07 | paulproteus | I should make a page listing the things I'll offer to write reverse engineer specs for. |
| 15:52.09 | SpeedEvil | They are quite aggressive saying what you can't do with the data |
| 15:52.48 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: the program itself uses a GPS(or could), so there's no reason an opensource j2me phone can't use the same program |
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| 15:54.13 | Kensan | summatusmentis: The problem lies with the rights to the map-data which google buys in bulk from other companies. If the allow their users to do whatever they want with those maps they would breach their contracts. |
| 15:54.52 | Kensan | The application is not the problem, the data/information is. |
| 15:55.31 | SpeedEvil | The _mapping software_ is trivial. |
| 15:55.40 | bedboi | hey guys, any rumors about the uber-waited release of neo? |
| 15:55.41 | SpeedEvil | The map is tens of thousands of man-years. |
| 15:55.54 | summatusmentis | Kensan: I know that legally we can't have access to the maps/API/etc., but they're application does what we're looking for |
| 15:56.04 | aloril | SpeedEvil: yup, just make actual mapping game ;-) |
| 15:56.12 | SpeedEvil | summatusmentis: only for those on unlimited data contracts |
| 15:56.23 | SpeedEvil | summatusmentis: only for those in coverage where they need the map |
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| 15:56.37 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: ok, that's fair |
| 15:56.38 | aloril | so leverage in creating that game is huge, like 1000-10000x |
| 15:56.45 | SpeedEvil | summatusmentis: you can't legally download and save bits of the map. |
| 15:57.33 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: right... I guess I wasn't thinking about the data aspect of it |
| 15:57.40 | paulproteus | aloril, I agree, and I volunteer to help with the technical ends. I |
| 15:57.46 | paulproteus | 'm not good at making games or designing UIs, though. |
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| 15:58.06 | balrog-kun | and all that thousands of man-years of work will be rendered wasted as soon as we populate a new planet :p |
| 15:58.23 | drath | heh, guess it's worth taking that risk |
| 15:58.56 | aloril | balrog-kun: oh, cool, new map! lots of mappers will rush to get best pieces mapped ;-) |
| 15:59.09 | aloril | np ;-) |
| 16:00.01 | drath | you would have the chance of mapping streets while they're beeing built - not like this time, when all the streets were built before we had mapping software |
| 16:00.31 | Elrond | We have a lot of empty pages (existant, but 0 bytes. Due to spam, etc.) in the wiki. Does it make sense to rename one to create a new page instead of creating a new one? |
| 16:01.40 | balrog-kun | you could try to force the state to add every new street to an open streetmap when it's being built as an official requirement :) |
| 16:01.49 | SpeedEvil | I've estimated that my local town of 40K people needs at least 100K nodes to fully describe it. |
| 16:02.25 | SpeedEvil | This is several months of work. |
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| 16:02.34 | paulproteus | SpeedEvil, What sort of work? |
| 16:02.50 | SpeedEvil | Going down streets getting numbers and noting paths |
| 16:03.16 | SpeedEvil | Naming streets, saying where the one-way system goes, ... |
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| 16:05.46 | Elrond | Right. |
| 16:05.57 | Elrond | I have done basic stuff in my 100k work city. ;-) |
| 16:07.05 | Rince | ;) |
| 16:07.26 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: http://www.tegmento.org/gpsylon/ ? |
| 16:07.49 | summatusmentis | again, there might be a data issue there |
| 16:10.36 | paulproteus | http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/index.html is the data source, it seems. |
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| 16:14.16 | borg_ | counter |
| 16:14.17 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 21:52:51 (0.912±0.9 days) (1584;240) |
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| 16:15.39 | summatusmentis | paulproteus: so... it looks like it's freely available then? |
| 16:15.55 | paulproteus | summatusmentis, Yes, I think that's right. The big question is data set size. |
| 16:16.01 | summatusmentis | true |
| 16:16.27 | summatusmentis | paulproteus: and we'd be looking at getting the whole data set? |
| 16:16.57 | paulproteus | summatusmentis, Sure, I don't know, I just clicked one link on the page you sent me to. (-: |
| 16:17.30 | summatusmentis | lol, me neither, I'm just throwing ideas into the dark here |
| 16:19.31 | summatusmentis | it's big, 720MB |
| 16:19.33 | summatusmentis | Q: I would like to download all the country name zip files. Could you please tell me how I can do this without having to do them one by one? I have a list of the files now that I extracted from your web page, but cannot work out how to do a bulk ftp download. I got into ftp mode on your site, but that did not help either as I could not locate the directory. |
| 16:19.34 | summatusmentis | A: You can acomplish this through our FTP site: ftp://ftp.nga.mil/pub/gns_data/. If you are in possession of a graphical FTP client, you can transfer all available country data files to your machine (providing you have the space [~720MB] and the bandwidth). |
| 16:20.32 | paulproteus | Hah! Gpsylon seems to use expedia.com maps: GPSylon is able to show maps downloaded from the expedia map servers. It may connect to a gps device and track your position on the maps. <http://www.tegmento.org/gpsylon/> |
| 16:21.34 | paulproteus | SpeedEvil, I have a question about data: |
| 16:21.44 | SpeedEvil | ? |
| 16:21.51 | paulproteus | (I'm working on it...) |
| 16:22.19 | paulproteus | In the US, you can hold no copyright-like right over pure data. Why not just get some American to make dumps of the existing databases in a different format, thereby liberating them, and then redistributing them? |
| 16:22.34 | SpeedEvil | Downloading from google, expedia, whatever is easy. Doing it legally isn't possible. You can display the maps, but not download them for later use. |
| 16:22.57 | SpeedEvil | Because the data isn't pure data, you can't get to it. |
| 16:23.06 | SpeedEvil | It's only presented in a presentation format |
| 16:23.22 | paulproteus | So you'd have to do something like OCR to get the raw data out, which isn't very helpful. |
| 16:23.52 | paulproteus | Though you could just loop: for address in list, geocode it, POST it.... |
| 16:23.52 | paulproteus | But that doesn't get you everything. |
| 16:23.52 | SpeedEvil | Plus,m there are bits of 'original' data in there. |
| 16:23.52 | SpeedEvil | Which do not reflect reality on the ground. |
| 16:24.12 | SpeedEvil | But are put there to make it illegal on another ground coyping the map. |
| 16:24.27 | Kensan | paulproteus: certain companies deliberatly put mistakes into their maps/data so they could prove you stole the data form them. |
| 16:24.39 | SpeedEvil | It's more than that. |
| 16:24.43 | SpeedEvil | The mistakes are original content. |
| 16:24.52 | SpeedEvil | And protected thereby by copyright. |
| 16:24.56 | paulproteus | Kensan, But again, there's no problem with "stealing" the data since in the US there are no restrictions on sharing pure data, only "expressions of information" or "patented inventions". |
| 16:25.06 | summatusmentis | well, why can GPSylon use expedia? |
| 16:25.10 | paulproteus | SpeedEvil, No; (C) only covers *expressions* of information. Digesting something and regurgitating it is legal. |
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| 16:26.18 | SpeedEvil | summatusmentis: read the terms and condtionts on expedia. They can't. |
| 16:26.24 | SpeedEvil | (legally) |
| 16:27.12 | paulproteus | SpeedEvil, But do you see my point about pure data? If only we could access it without being bound to some contract, then we'd be free to redistribute. |
| 16:27.27 | summatusmentis | but they are, w/ no issues(apparently, or they wouldn't be here) |
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| 16:27.36 | mintee | morning all |
| 16:27.46 | mintee | nice to see the change on the main site |
| 16:28.01 | paulproteus | mintee, Eh? /me hits up openmoko.com |
| 16:28.13 | mintee | .org |
| 16:28.13 | mintee | http://www.openmoko.org/ |
| 16:28.59 | mintee | how many neo |
| 16:29.01 | mintee | err |
| 16:29.02 | SpeedEvil | summatusmentis: Just because there is an opensource project doesn't mean it complies with the terms and conditions of the data providing service. |
| 16:29.08 | mintee | how many neo's have been shipped out? |
| 16:29.32 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: I'm aware, but presumably, if they'd been found(or if expedia cared) they'd be shut dwon? |
| 16:29.34 | summatusmentis | down* |
| 16:29.59 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 16:30.12 | SpeedEvil | The problem isn't expedia. |
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| 16:30.29 | SpeedEvil | The problem is that expedia has signed contracts with the map providers to just show users map data |
| 16:30.59 | SpeedEvil | Letting the users download that data would be _much_ more expensive to do. |
| 16:31.09 | summatusmentis | mintee: what change are you talking about |
| 16:31.17 | SpeedEvil | Because once the data gets out, it has almost no value. |
| 16:31.32 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: right, that makes sense |
| 16:31.39 | mintee | summatusmentis, i guess it's been a few weeks since i looked at the site. sorry, out of touch, heh. |
| 16:32.07 | summatusmentis | mintee: lol, oh, you got me way to excited :-P I thought maybe something had been shipped etc. |
| 16:32.36 | mintee | summatusmentis, heh, sorry. guess your inline for a phone eh? you know how many has been shipped? |
| 16:32.43 | mintee | last I heard only about 50 or so |
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| 16:33.17 | summatusmentis | mintee: I'm not, but I'm eagerly awaiting any news :-P I need new phone in august, and i'm hoping a dev version of the GTA02 will be available |
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| 16:33.51 | summatusmentis | but even if not, I'll be getting one in august I think |
| 16:34.31 | mintee | yeah, i think my plan is up around aug, or sept also. Looking forward to picking this up |
| 16:35.01 | summatusmentis | me too |
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| 16:39.52 | SpeedEvil | Penetration: http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7466/armpenlo9.jpg |
| 16:39.52 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 16:40.07 | summatusmentis | erm... >_> |
| 16:40.10 | summatusmentis | <_< |
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| 16:40.40 | SpeedEvil | Worksafe - just meant for elsewhere |
| 16:40.50 | summatusmentis | lol, the word penetration, then an image, draw your own conclusion :-P |
| 16:42.18 | summatusmentis | just kidding SpeedEvil, <3 |
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| 16:44.06 | mintee | soooo bored |
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| 16:45.17 | SpeedEvil | There are some nice chips out there - but annoyingly unavailable in quantities of under a reel. |
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| 17:04.02 | don-o | any hardware news? |
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| 17:09.13 | don-o | ow |
| 17:12.33 | bedboi | don-o: same question, same silence :) |
| 17:12.43 | bedboi | i suppose no news so far |
| 17:13.01 | summatusmentis | I'm pretty sure there would be massive celebration, and it'd be in the topic, etc. if there were any news |
| 17:13.05 | bedboi | hey today in my city it's 48C :) |
| 17:13.11 | Kal_Torak|work | ... |
| 17:13.19 | bedboi | it's really crazy stuff. |
| 17:13.21 | Kal_Torak|work | What is this question that nobody is willing to ask? |
| 17:13.30 | Kal_Torak|work | This is not Harry Potter's world you know :P |
| 17:13.38 | Kal_Torak|work | The Question That Must Not Be Named? |
| 17:13.46 | summatusmentis | same as don-o's, whether or not there's news reagarding the neo, I think |
| 17:14.02 | summatusmentis | Kal_Torak|work: speaking of which, 7th book comes out soon |
| 17:14.02 | don-o | The Phone that shall not be Sold. |
| 17:14.04 | bedboi | Kaloz: yep, we would like to hear some news about neo. |
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| 17:14.19 | bedboi | lol |
| 17:14.24 | don-o | the last email mentioned 'big news' and 'soon' |
| 17:14.34 | summatusmentis | counter |
| 17:14.34 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 21:22:42 (0.891±0.9 days) (1585;240) |
| 17:14.50 | bedboi | don-o: 'soon' is not a measure :) |
| 17:14.54 | bedboi | it's relative |
| 17:14.59 | summatusmentis | big news? Voldemort decided to give up? |
| 17:15.02 | don-o | summatusmentis: the counter bot was killed long ago. as i like to say, it was only good at predicting when its counter would be reset. |
| 17:15.10 | summatusmentis | lol |
| 17:15.15 | Kal_Torak|work | lol |
| 17:16.05 | bedboi | don-o: well, a predition is a prediction :) |
| 17:16.37 | summatusmentis | oh the irony |
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| 17:17.31 | bedboi | summatusmentis: nobody is pushing, I'm just really very impatient to get the hands on neo |
| 17:18.14 | holtmann | Any changes that we get new images or daily snapshots updated again. I currently don't have the resources to build the whole image by myself. |
| 17:18.29 | summatusmentis | bedboi: pushing? I know, I get it |
| 17:19.00 | summatusmentis | bedboi: I was commenting on the fact that a predition(no c) is a prediction :-) |
| 17:19.31 | Kal_Torak|work | oops, heresy. |
| 17:19.40 | holtmann | lrg: Can we now chat about the Bluetooth PCM <-> Codec interaction |
| 17:20.10 | summatusmentis | Kal_Torak|work: I can't afford one, and the neo will be better |
| 17:20.14 | bedboi | lol |
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| 17:20.34 | bedboi | Kal_Torak|work: don't want an iphone |
| 17:20.43 | bedboi | i hate apple's stuff |
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| 17:20.54 | Kal_Torak|work | I'm not an apple fan. |
| 17:21.00 | Kal_Torak|work | I'm a fan of what tool does the job best for me. |
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| 17:21.10 | lrg | holtmann: sorry, I'm about to leave. I'll bbl tonight |
| 17:21.22 | Kal_Torak|work | And idiots who hate a product just because of who made it, well, are idiots. |
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| 17:21.51 | bedboi | Kal_Torak|work: you should excuse me for having a position on a company. |
| 17:21.57 | Kal_Torak|work | o rly? |
| 17:21.58 | bedboi | i'm not only talking about a product |
| 17:22.30 | summatusmentis | well, regardless of companies, etc. I'm getting to the point where I think the iPhone will flop |
| 17:22.34 | bedboi | it's my money and i decide who to spend it |
| 17:22.55 | bedboi | s/who/how |
| 17:22.55 | Kal_Torak|work | Of course. |
| 17:23.30 | bedboi | and if i dislike for some reason the mission of a company i don't like to feed it |
| 17:24.02 | bedboi | that's the same for free software and proprietary software. |
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| 17:25.12 | GaKKGaKk | counter |
| 17:25.12 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 21:17:24 (0.887±0.9 days) (1586;240) |
| 17:26.28 | Kal_Torak|work | Yeah, I wouldn't spend my money on free software. |
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| 17:31.46 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[Neo1973/de]] [[Talk:Contacts/02]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[User:Drokzid]] |
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| 17:53.17 | Vitaly | counter |
| 17:53.17 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 21:03:21 (0.877±0.9 days) (1587;240) |
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| 18:47.51 | aloril2 | IIRC bigger announcements have usually come at morning (3am-7am UCT) |
| 18:48.18 | mmp | not very positive, though |
| 18:49.15 | Moo^ | mmp: buy extra battery, so you can skip the sleep :) |
| 18:51.21 | mmp | :)) |
| 18:52.18 | aloril2 | thats morning-midday at Taiwan |
| 18:52.19 | Mortimus | battery |
| 18:52.26 | Mortimus | how about a reactor! |
| 18:52.29 | ynezz | shop open? |
| 18:53.14 | mmp | ynezz: doesn't seem so |
| 18:54.39 | Kal_Torak|work | People who camp out in front of stores just for a digital gizmo need to have their heads checked. |
| 18:54.42 | Kal_Torak|work | Repeatedly. |
| 18:54.55 | aloril2 | Tuesday and Wednesday morning/day would be in time, Thursday would be a bit late |
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| 18:56.33 | aloril2 | Kal_Torak|work: iPhone is not option at all, because I can do with it only a small fraction of stuff that I can do with Neo173 |
| 18:57.39 | Kero | checked my head. It says "Free the phone". more than just a digital gizmo :P |
| 19:01.04 | loufoque | Kero: your head says stuff? |
| 19:01.20 | ynezz | no the friend inside |
| 19:01.30 | ynezz | i have two of them! |
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| 19:02.53 | Kal_Torak|work | wait, I thought aloril2 was a bot |
| 19:02.54 | Kal_Torak|work | Creepy. |
| 19:02.54 | Kero | loufoque: out loud |
| 19:03.40 | loufoque | Kero: you might consider having a shower |
| 19:03.47 | loufoque | Kero: with shampoo |
| 19:03.57 | aloril2 | cyborg ;-) |
| 19:04.15 | Kal_Torak|work | +_- |
| 19:06.57 | aloril2 | imgine carpenter buying nice house without workshop, without possibility to buy/use tools: would be quite frustrating; same thing with developer and iPhone and also why people (including me) so eagerly wait Neo1973: it has very nice 'workshop' in addition being nice 'house' |
| 19:07.15 | kiney_ | counter |
| 19:07.16 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 20:26:22 (0.852±0.9 days) (1588;240) |
| 19:07.45 | Kal_Torak|work | It also looks like it will be awhile until it's mature. |
| 19:08.29 | Mortimus | i can deal with unstable |
| 19:08.41 | Mortimus | as long as it makes calls |
| 19:08.57 | Mortimus | everything else is extra |
| 19:09.08 | unknown_lamer | calls, sms, and able to run as a gprs modem... |
| 19:09.21 | unknown_lamer | my nokia7610 crashes randomly when being used as a modem :-( |
| 19:09.29 | unknown_lamer | and then takes five minutes to reboot |
| 19:09.56 | Mortimus | e815 crashes whenever txt'ing or calling |
| 19:10.50 | Mortimus | randomly |
| 19:12.57 | aloril2 | yeah, maybe say that its nice piece of land with unfinished house (but good work so far with house and foundation is rock) |
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| 19:14.21 | aloril2 | being unfinished is not problem for good carpenter: at least (s)he gets what (s)he wants ;-) |
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| 19:31.26 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] |
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| 19:51.20 | Elrond | pH5 - BTW: Last weekend I tried to play with flag 0x1. |
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| 19:52.26 | Elrond | pH5 - Result 1: Don't do it too often. My chip finally ended up in not talking to me at all. I thought, I had fried it. My friend luckily enough suggested to pull the batter. Which restored the old behaviour. |
| 19:52.47 | Elrond | pH5 - Result 2: It looks like it disabled flag 0x4. So 0x5 == 0x0 == 0x1. |
| 19:53.50 | pH5 | hi Elrond. I started looking at the disassembled gllin, but no good without debugging symbols. I need an ARM interpreter in the disassembler to make sense of the ugly c++ produced assembler code. |
| 19:53.57 | pH5 | Elrond: ok, so that's a result at least :) |
| 19:54.37 | Elrond | pH5 - A friend tried that too. I think, he gave up. He even asked me, if I could organize debugging symbols. ;o) |
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| 19:55.18 | Elrond | I try to stay away from the debugging symbols, so that we have a slight "clean room"-excuse. ;o) |
| 19:55.38 | pH5 | I started with a script that puts the strings back for printf, puts and alike, but the really interesting debug strings aren't wired, it seems. |
| 19:55.51 | Elrond | s/the debugging symbols/disassembling/ |
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| 19:58.31 | Elrond | pH5 - I assume you still have no idea, on what basis the driver decides, that a satelite is not receivable? |
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| 19:58.48 | SpeedEvil | It may be that it simply picks the 8 highest ones |
| 19:59.40 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - I talk about the initial "We don't know anything, not even the almanac/ephemeris"-period. |
| 19:59.55 | SpeedEvil | h |
| 19:59.57 | SpeedEvil | Ah |
| 20:00.08 | pH5 | Elrond: I guess it somehow tries to catch the maximum received energy in those "bins" you talked about earlier (are those the 12bit values in the memory at 0x23?) |
| 20:00.33 | SpeedEvil | I would _imagine_ that it simply decides it can't recieve it after not finding sufficient energy in any of the correlator bins |
| 20:00.42 | pH5 | the gllin strings talk about some "coarse sniffing" and "zooming in". |
| 20:01.10 | Elrond | Hmm, fun. |
| 20:01.16 | pH5 | SpeedEvil: sounds reasonable. but how :) |
| 20:01.43 | pH5 | Elrond: have you tried different frequency plan setups with gllin? |
| 20:01.44 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Yeah, that was my assumption... but those freaky bins have 0xfff in there even for invisible sats... maybe some scaling? |
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| 20:01.46 | SpeedEvil | ph5: what do you mean how? |
| 20:02.06 | pH5 | how does it decide what is sufficient energy. |
| 20:02.09 | Elrond | pH5 - frequency plan setups?! |
| 20:02.22 | pH5 | I guess that the code somehow tries to find and hold a peak. |
| 20:02.24 | koen | pH5: sphyrna r15 is in the angstrom feeds now |
| 20:02.25 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: it won't likely be zero for any bin. You will get some noise appearing. |
| 20:02.26 | pH5 | Elrond: -freq parameter. |
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| 20:03.07 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: Any wideband noise will appear more or less evenly in all the bins. |
| 20:03.07 | pH5 | I hope there might be a different setup of some register due to this. |
| 20:03.10 | Elrond | pH5 - I haven't used gllin till now. I plan to setup a chroot first. ;-) |
| 20:03.14 | Elrond | <-- is a bit paranoid ;) |
| 20:03.36 | koen | pH5, Elrond: any sphyrna stuff you want me to try next week? |
| 20:03.39 | pH5 | aah :) |
| 20:03.52 | pH5 | koen: "find out how it works" :D |
| 20:04.14 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Yeah. But 0xfff (the maximum) should not appear due to this... Unless there is some scaling. "Scale everything up" or so. |
| 20:04.37 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. Unless it's indicating something else. |
| 20:04.49 | pH5 | Elrond: did you proceed with your correlator bin scope? |
| 20:04.56 | Elrond | koen - *duck* <making fun> Try some social engineering at infineon ;o))) </making fun> |
| 20:05.05 | SpeedEvil | 'integration timed out without producing any results over threshold' for example. |
| 20:05.29 | Elrond | pH5 - I have cleaned up a few GB on my desktop till now. ;-) |
| 20:05.41 | Elrond | pH5 - And I'm supposed to do paid work. ,o) |
| 20:06.15 | pH5 | Elrond: yeah, pity they don't pay you for hammerhead RE :) |
| 20:06.30 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Ahh. Hmm. |
| 20:06.54 | Elrond | pH5 - *pssst* I hope, I can keep the neo afterwards. ;-) |
| 20:07.10 | SpeedEvil | If that was the case 'neo wrapped in foil' would hopefully produce more FF |
| 20:07.41 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Hmm. microwave ofen (of course OFF) shoudl also do, right? |
| 20:08.28 | SpeedEvil | Umm - perhaps. |
| 20:08.36 | SpeedEvil | the shielding is optimised for one wavelength. |
| 20:08.40 | SpeedEvil | And it's not quite GPS |
| 20:08.55 | SpeedEvil | I would imagine it probably would |
| 20:09.00 | Elrond | Is it really optimised for one wavelelength? |
| 20:09.01 | SpeedEvil | (I'd also unplug it :) ) |
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| 20:09.32 | Elrond | The other idea is taking it to work. We have large faraday box. ;-) |
| 20:10.05 | Elrond | (Ahh, unplugging is a good idea.) |
| 20:12.18 | Elrond | plug neo into linuxbox, start: sleep 600 && walk over the yard && let vibrator tuck a second && conduct test && vibrator && walk back, grab data |
| 20:12.21 | Elrond | ;i) |
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| 20:18.50 | koen | holtmann: OE now has bluez libs and utils 3.12 |
| 20:19.23 | Elrond | Now we just need Om to catch up. ;o) |
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| 20:27.13 | pH5 | koen: hmmh, time to get out that bluetooth headset again. |
| 20:27.39 | koen | pH5: bmidgley is the bt headset master |
| 20:29.07 | holtmann | koen: Great. Please also get the new hcidump. You might run into troubles with the old one. It depends on bluez-libs-3.12. |
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| 20:31.57 | DocTrax | i like the idea, lets idle here ;) |
| 20:33.11 | sixfeet | hi DocTrax ;) |
| 20:33.19 | DocTrax | hi sixfeet |
| 20:33.36 | sixfeet | oller iddler |
| 20:33.42 | koen | holtmann: hci.c:820: error: 'sniff_subrate_cp' undeclared (first use in this function) |
| 20:35.11 | thomasg_ | hm, since sean made his "promise" it was really quiet on the mailinglists. :) <2 days remaining |
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| 20:41.30 | koen | holtmann: should that be sniff_subrating_cp instead? |
| 20:42.18 | holtmann | Yes. I had to do some renaming, but these are only used by hcidump. |
| 20:42.36 | holtmann | Do you wanna have a patch that makes the older hcidumps compile again. |
| 20:42.51 | koen | hcidump 1.36 seems to still use the old names |
| 20:43.05 | koen | gah |
| 20:43.09 | koen | I need 1.37 |
| 20:45.08 | koen | Packaged contents of bluez-hcidump into /data/build/koen/OE/build/tmp/angstrom/deploy/glibc/ipk/armv4t/bluez-hcidump_1.37-r0_armv4t.ipk |
| 20:49.03 | holtmann | I blame the Bluetooth SIG for having parts of the 2.1 specification public and then later remove it and then renaming it. |
| 20:50.30 | koen | well, you did say "the new hcidump" and I picked 1.36, so that's just me being an idiot |
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| 21:22.20 | Elrond | pH5 - Can you test the my changed automake stuff in sphyrna some time? (I'm not really feeling like automake these days) |
| 21:23.20 | Elrond | pH5 - Oh, and please run decode.py on a log from you, before and after updating. |
| 21:24.12 | nox-Hand | counter |
| 21:24.13 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 19:17:53 (0.804±0.8 days) (1589;240) |
| 21:24.37 | pH5 | Elrond: sure, will do tomorrow. |
| 21:24.40 | pH5 | good night |
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| 22:03.58 | CoreDump|home | hi |
| 22:04.19 | sixfeet | ho |
| 22:14.04 | LuitvD | counter |
| 22:14.04 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 18:52:58 (0.787±0.8 days) (1590;240) |
| 22:14.07 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__ (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-e881ee6f9730cf18) |
| 22:14.23 | LuitvD | lol, that's not much... 1,6 days at most... |
| 22:14.42 | LuitvD | so the news is tomorrow? |
| 22:14.45 | LuitvD | :) |
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