| 00:00.23 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@222-155-137-86.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 00:00.42 | zecke | the rain almost stopped, I'm running home |
| 00:00.43 | zecke | cya |
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| 00:51.22 | aevin | i just read up on the latest posts on planet.openmoko.org and this looks really good! |
| 00:58.44 | aevin | i guess it will stop the flow of complaints about vapourware on the community ML for a while :-) |
| 00:59.20 | bluelightning | aevin: let's hope so |
| 01:09.00 | dkirker | Will OpenMoko be using a WebKit based browser for web browsing? |
| 01:09.45 | dkirker | I noticed zecke's post on Planet OpenMoko, and I think that I have seen him around #webkit. |
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| 01:15.34 | bluelightning | dkirker: that's the plan I believe, yep |
| 01:15.39 | dkirker | cool! |
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| 02:49.53 | Readon | svn: Unable to find repository location for 'http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches' in revision 11 |
| 02:50.23 | Readon | is the uboot url wrong? |
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| 03:26.41 | rwhitby | dfu downloads sure take a long time on bv4 compared to bv3 ... |
| 03:27.18 | loufoque | does minimo suck that much? |
| 03:27.21 | Readon | svn: Can't connect to host 'svn.openmoko.org': Connection refused |
| 03:27.21 | Readon | what's happened on the server? |
| 03:32.11 | Readon | how to submit a patch? i think uboot-gta01_svn.bb has a bug on svn checkout |
| 03:34.27 | rwhitby | Readon: sure it's not just a server outage? |
| 03:34.37 | rwhitby | (i.e. it worked for me a couple of hours ago) |
| 03:38.32 | Readon | svn checkout svn://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot;module=patches;proto=http |
| 03:38.32 | Readon | svn: Can't connect to host 'svn.openmoko.org': Connection refused |
| 03:38.32 | Readon | i check it manually,but it can't work.but svn checkout http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot;module=patches would work |
| 03:38.32 | Readon | but bb could not do as i wanted,using http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot;module=patches |
| 03:45.04 | rwhitby | svn co http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches works here |
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| 03:45.55 | Readon | rwhitby, but i can't put http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches into the bb file |
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| 03:46.17 | rwhitby | correct - the text in the bb file does what I pasted above |
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| 03:46.49 | rwhitby | the proto=http overrides the svn:// |
| 03:47.03 | Readon | which version are you using? |
| 03:47.07 | rwhitby | try bb again now, cause the server is up. |
| 03:47.17 | rwhitby | I'm using MokoMakefile. what version of what? |
| 03:47.23 | Readon | bitbake |
| 03:47.38 | rwhitby | MokoMakefile controls the bitbake version. how are you building? |
| 03:48.01 | Readon | it told me that svn: Unable to find repository location for 'http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches' in revision 11 |
| 03:49.09 | rwhitby | "svn: Can't connect to host 'svn.openmoko.org': Connection refused" is not a bitbake problem |
| 03:49.40 | rwhitby | are you using MokoMakefile, or rolling your own? |
| 03:50.28 | Readon | i am using it |
| 03:50.47 | rwhitby | have you re-run it now that I've confirmed the server is up? |
| 03:51.04 | Readon | i try that manually |
| 03:51.06 | _llll_ | connection refused sounds like network/firewall issues to me |
| 03:51.21 | Readon | i think it's true |
| 03:51.22 | rwhitby | cause you still haven't proven to me that it's not a server outage that caused your failure |
| 03:51.59 | rwhitby | (and there's been no change to that recipe in the last four hours since it worked for me here) |
| 03:52.18 | Readon | but that is out of our control, you know , perhaps it's about damn "gold guard" |
| 03:54.03 | rwhitby | Readon: has this worked for you before, or is it the very first time you've tried to build? |
| 03:54.05 | Readon | server is ok, i can checkout with command svn co http://... |
| 03:54.05 | Readon | rwhitby, maybe the recipe has not tested in mainland. |
| 03:54.18 | rwhitby | mainland? |
| 03:54.18 | Readon | china |
| 03:54.22 | rwhitby | ah |
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| 03:54.27 | happycube | ohhh - filters? |
| 03:54.41 | Readon | it's worked before. |
| 03:55.10 | Readon | but when i rm build dir and rebuild it, it's failed. |
| 03:56.11 | rwhitby | have you re-run it now that I've confirmed the server is up? |
| 03:57.04 | Readon | it's a long time |
| 03:58.39 | Readon | i want to try bitbake -b uboot-gta01_svn.bb |
| 04:04.49 | aloril | mwester: are you there? can I quote you in counter page? |
| 04:07.01 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Skull_Death]] |
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| 04:15.15 | aloril | mwester: well, for now I quote you without names |
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| 04:19.56 | aloril | based on yesterday discussion: |
| 04:19.58 | aloril | counter_msg http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) |
| 04:19.58 | aloril | aloril changed counter prefix message to http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) |
| 04:20.14 | aloril | combined probability for <= 2007-07-07 is still 70% ;-) |
| 04:21.07 | aloril | (date based on what Sean said in video at Tossug meeting) |
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| 04:53.01 | aloril | from ML: "the speculation that has been running rampant through the message boards" |
| 04:53.09 | aloril | what message boards? |
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| 04:59.18 | Readon | NOTE: Fetch svn://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot;module=patches;proto=http |
| 04:59.52 | Readon | svn: Unable to find repository location for 'http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches' in revision 11 |
| 04:59.52 | Readon | NOTE: Task failed: Fetch failed: patches |
| 04:59.52 | Readon | the problem remains |
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| 05:40.33 | aloril | counter_msg http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for |
| 05:40.33 | aloril | aloril changed counter prefix message to http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for |
| 05:44.55 | _llll_ | "40% for" ? |
| 05:50.23 | aloril | counter |
| 05:50.23 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 3 days 03:04:48 (3.128±3.1 days) (1480;229) |
| 05:51.47 | _llll_ | what does the 1480;229 signify? |
| 05:51.50 | aloril | hmm.. maybe I should have argument for probability (default would be for 50% maybe?) |
| 05:51.57 | madwoota | its a counter for the counter :P |
| 05:51.58 | aloril | see link above |
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| 07:16.33 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2270 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch: |
| 07:16.33 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * implement pcf50606 RTC driver |
| 07:16.33 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * use PCF50606 RTC rather than S3C2410 RTC, in accordance with hardware/kernel |
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| 09:02.57 | Sup3rkiddo | matchbox-panel in the current svn head is broken |
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| 09:07.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 613 has been created by sudharsh(AT)gmail.com |
| 09:07.02 | cdbot2 | * * Matchbox panel broken in Rev:2270 |
| 09:07.04 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=613 |
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| 09:14.55 | PBeck | hallo |
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| 09:43.49 | nobody96 | moin |
| 09:45.00 | nobody96 | oh, the first time mickey is not here when i am |
| 09:45.14 | aloril | first reaction after reading this "Sony Ericsson Shows Off Feature-Heavy Cell Phones" was 'who cares, its not FOSS anyway' ;-) |
| 09:45.22 | nobody96 | how do i leave him a message that his new svn checkin contains an error? |
| 09:47.41 | koen | nobody96: file a bug |
| 09:47.47 | nobody96 | k |
| 09:54.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 614 has been created by ruediger(AT)blueboot.org |
| 09:54.02 | cdbot2 | * * wrong XSession option |
| 09:54.04 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=614 |
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| 09:59.39 | kiney_ | counter |
| 09:59.40 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 3 days 01:00:10 (3.042±3.0 days) (1481;229) |
| 10:03.15 | nobody96 | i dont like the possibility movement regarding P1+/P1.5 (GTA02) |
| 10:05.10 | SpeedEvil | I think there is no point at all in the probability. |
| 10:07.46 | nobody96 | but thats all we have :) |
| 10:09.11 | nobody96 | but guessing the P1.5 release date is in fact hardly possible |
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| 10:37.23 | Elrond | Hi rwhitby-n800 :) |
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| 10:43.46 | kiney_ | counter |
| 10:43.46 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 3 days 00:38:07 (3.026±3.0 days) (1482;229) |
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| 10:53.48 | PBeck | 3 days :> |
| 10:54.16 | PBeck | that will be wonderfull :) |
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| 11:11.06 | SpeedEvil | Is advertising - on specific pages - appropriate on the wiki? I'm wondering about a 'Stuff for sale' page that I might put a link to a site of mine that sells Neo stuff on it. |
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| 11:20.06 | minime | i don't know though i'd appreaciate it ;) |
| 11:21.44 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - You should at least put a big warning header at the top. ;o) |
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| 11:28.52 | wehttamb | counter |
| 11:28.52 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 3 days 00:15:34 (3.011±3.0 days) (1483;229) |
| 11:29.20 | wehttamb | counter |
| 11:29.21 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 3 days 00:15:19 (3.011±3.0 days) (1484;229) |
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| 11:37.35 | Elrond | counter-flooding. ;o) |
| 11:39.49 | LuitvD | counter? |
| 11:39.50 | aloril | "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 3 days 00:10:05 (3.007±3.0 days) (1485;229) |
| 11:39.51 | LuitvD | :P |
| 11:40.24 | LuitvD | Elrond: I don't get why everybody checks the counter that frequently... |
| 11:40.47 | LuitvD | I never type 'counter' and I always know the ETA and probability |
| 11:42.05 | Elrond | LuitvD - I have given up on counter. ;o) |
| 11:42.32 | LuitvD | I just don't look at it :P |
| 11:42.43 | LuitvD | planet.openmoko.org is much more accurate |
| 11:42.57 | LuitvD | (making your own guesses |
| 11:43.21 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
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| 11:44.51 | Elrond | Well, yeah. |
| 11:45.06 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03andrew * r2271 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/hw/ (neo1973.c usb-bt.c): Correctly release the POWER button. |
| 11:46.01 | Linux_Galore | are we any closer to a release date yet ? |
| 11:46.01 | aloril | Linux_Galore: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 11:46.21 | Linux_Galore | already done |
| 11:46.26 | Elrond | Linux_Galore - Check http://planet.openmoko.org/ |
| 11:46.52 | Linux_Galore | I want to get my hands on one and do some hacking |
| 11:48.16 | Linux_Galore | Elrond: doesnt tell me much other than they have a small run done |
| 11:49.01 | Elrond | Linux_Galore - What sort of hacking do you want to do? |
| 11:49.50 | Linux_Galore | Elrond: making it work with servers, ie remote admin of servers |
| 11:50.29 | Linux_Galore | it has ssh support so half the job is done |
| 11:51.23 | Linux_Galore | Elrond: having a mobile phone that can do ssh is a serious life saver for many *nix admins |
| 11:52.17 | Linux_Galore | right now I drag a laptop around with a wireless network modem |
| 11:52.20 | CoreDump|home | *kbd |
| 11:52.30 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03andrew * r2272 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/hw/pcf5060x.c: Keep re-issuing ONKEY1S irq for as long as the button is down. |
| 11:52.50 | Linux_Galore | CoreDump|home: the openmoko has bt so you should be able to hack on a bluetooth keyboard |
| 11:53.25 | CoreDump|home | correct, but you'd have to carry that with you all the time ;) |
| 11:53.29 | Linux_Galore | I dont like phone/pda with a built in qwerty keyboard to be honest, they are next to useless |
| 11:53.48 | Linux_Galore | CoreDump|home: well the units Ive got weigh less than most mobile phones |
| 11:54.23 | Linux_Galore | CoreDump|home: they also fold up |
| 11:55.19 | CoreDump|home | to each his own I guess. I have a neo here and a Zaurus SL-C3200. The kbd and screen of the Z are way better suited for ssh sessions, trust me |
| 11:55.48 | Linux_Galore | yeah Ive got a 5600, I didnt like the keyboard |
| 11:56.28 | Elrond | What I can say for sure: Neo + on_screen_kbd is horror. |
| 11:56.58 | Elrond | It took me >10mins to power up BT in the train. ;o) |
| 11:57.07 | Linux_Galore | Elrond: yeah, Im not a fan of touch screens to be honest either |
| 11:57.37 | Linux_Galore | ie greasy hands on screens dont mix |
| 11:58.06 | Elrond | If the keyboard would support landscape mode better, it would be lots better. |
| 11:59.03 | miip | Linux_Galore: http://s2putty.sourceforge.net/ |
| 11:59.10 | Elrond | Linux_Galore - About hacking: Unless there's something to do to get BT-keyboards to work, the neo should have evdrything already. |
| 11:59.32 | Elrond | ... except gtkterm2 is a bit... strange. |
| 11:59.35 | CoreDump|home | Elrond: they already work out-of-the-box |
| 11:59.44 | Linux_Galore | miip: woow, just what I needed |
| 12:00.45 | Elrond | CoreDump|home - Nice to hear. :) |
| 12:01.51 | Elrond | The only usable BT device in my home is the Neo. ;o) |
| 12:02.07 | Linux_Galore | well right now I have a Nokia N95 with a bluetooth keyboard (fold out model), works really well (I type emails in landscape mode on the train) , I just wanted better access to some servers but htanks to miip that seems to now be solved |
| 12:02.21 | Linux_Galore | thanks* |
| 12:02.33 | *** join/#openmoko schurig (n=schurig@p54B28604.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 12:02.43 | SpeedEvil | So can anyone sum up the current state of installed apps on the latest builds? |
| 12:03.18 | Linux_Galore | I had a look at the screen shots for the openmoko, not to be insulting it reminds me allot of the human theme for Ubuntu |
| 12:03.29 | SpeedEvil | s/latest/most-functional/ possibly |
| 12:03.54 | SpeedEvil | Well - there are only so many ways to arrange little icons. |
| 12:04.01 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:04.45 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Working as in "usable in real life"? |
| 12:05.02 | Elrond | s/Working/"most-functional" |
| 12:05.15 | SpeedEvil | I'm just wondering what the latest state is. |
| 12:06.39 | Elrond | Well, I don't know really. I don't flash a whole rootfs. I update particular packages on an "as I feel like ti" basis. |
| 12:06.49 | Elrond | And usually something breaks. ;o) |
| 12:07.03 | Linux_Galore | yeah, many of my fellow *nix geeks are hanging out to try or buy an openmoko |
| 12:08.24 | SpeedEvil | Well - 500 done now, 1K in 2 weeks or so. |
| 12:08.45 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: whats the US$ price |
| 12:08.51 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@dsl-62-220-14-162.berlikomm.net) |
| 12:08.58 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - What I can say: The base system (u-boot, kernel, basic unix utils, terminal) are very stable now. gtkterm2 has its issues, the on-screen-keyboard (openmoko-keyboard) works only in portrait. |
| 12:09.09 | Elrond | Linux_Galore - $350 is the word since months... we have no updated info. |
| 12:09.35 | Linux_Galore | Elrond: thats pretty cheap, harly make a dent in a *nix geeks budget |
| 12:09.40 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: Well - you can say that! :) |
| 12:09.41 | Linux_Galore | hardly* |
| 12:10.06 | SpeedEvil | Linux_Galore: It's actually fairly cheap - if you compare identical subsidy-free phones. |
| 12:10.32 | SpeedEvil | Not that there are completely identical ones. |
| 12:10.49 | SpeedEvil | As no phones at this level have both no camera and wifi |
| 12:10.52 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: about 25% cheaper than a Nokia N73 for me, not bad |
| 12:11.58 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: shame really, I would have paid for the extra functionality |
| 12:12.12 | Elrond | Linux_Galore - The GTA02 will have wifi. |
| 12:12.16 | SpeedEvil | It's not really a question of payment - at least for wifi |
| 12:12.23 | SpeedEvil | it was more a question of available chips |
| 12:12.24 | Elrond | (but no info on availability or price yet) |
| 12:13.00 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: you will be up against the Motorols Z6 later this year and it has wifi |
| 12:13.10 | Linux_Galore | and runs Linux |
| 12:13.22 | SpeedEvil | Many phones run linux. |
| 12:13.33 | SpeedEvil | The Samsung A1200, for example. |
| 12:13.35 | Linux_Galore | but none as open |
| 12:13.42 | SpeedEvil | Not usably though. |
| 12:14.02 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: Motorola make the A1200 |
| 12:14.07 | SpeedEvil | Open-source phone apps are a big protection against obsolescence. |
| 12:14.08 | SpeedEvil | Meh. |
| 12:14.15 | *** join/#openmoko zell1983 (n=zell1983@host166-57-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 12:14.19 | SpeedEvil | But you know the point. |
| 12:14.34 | *** join/#openmoko slider (n=sebastia@pD9574697.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:14.58 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: actually the Moto A1200 "MING" is actually pretty cheap |
| 12:15.17 | SpeedEvil | But, last time I looked, you can't write your own native programs. |
| 12:15.26 | LuitvD | and the motoROKR isn't expensive either... |
| 12:15.27 | Linux_Galore | its technically a clamshell PDA Phone |
| 12:15.46 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: OpenEZX support is getting better every day... |
| 12:16.00 | SpeedEvil | That's reverse engineering isn't it? |
| 12:16.10 | Linux_Galore | there is also a Linux port for the TREO |
| 12:16.24 | Linux_Galore | it actually boots as of last year on the TREO650 |
| 12:16.43 | SpeedEvil | Personally, I really want phone makers that will actually support linux, rather than trying to secure the phone. |
| 12:17.22 | LuitvD | Linux_Galore: that's not that difficult... I already ran linux on my Palm T|E2 1,5 years ago |
| 12:17.37 | SpeedEvil | Though I'd support locked-down Neo phones subsidised, as long as the user is specifically told. And maybe a model number change. |
| 12:18.03 | SpeedEvil | For example, locking it to a provider. |
| 12:18.10 | Linux_Galore | Linux on TREO -> http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/06/linux-on-treo-650-gets-real/ |
| 12:18.48 | SpeedEvil | As a first cut - squirt a blob of glue over the JTAG connector |
| 12:19.09 | SpeedEvil | There are legitimate other reasons to lock it down. |
| 12:19.13 | CoreDump|home | it wouldn't be a neo1973 then =) |
| 12:19.18 | SpeedEvil | User != root != owner |
| 12:19.35 | SpeedEvil | In all cases. |
| 12:20.11 | SpeedEvil | For example, running data entry apps for parcel delivery, I don't want the driver able to edit the timestamps. |
| 12:20.26 | CoreDump|home | there are tools to manipulate the u-boot boot-environment at runtime |
| 12:20.42 | SpeedEvil | Not if you are running a kernel with appropriate security features. |
| 12:21.01 | Elrond | CoreDump|home - "nand lock tight" in u-boot and editing the uboot env will be harder. |
| 12:21.09 | SpeedEvil | And require a signed firmware image on upgrade |
| 12:21.29 | CoreDump|home | your are making an awful lot of assumptions there. I personally woulf be royally pissed if someone _sold_ me a "Neo1973" that was locked down in this fashion |
| 12:21.34 | SpeedEvil | This would not be the state of the phone as bought of course. |
| 12:21.44 | SpeedEvil | If you pay $350 for it. |
| 12:22.26 | SpeedEvil | There would be 'lockdown' tools included with the package |
| 12:22.30 | Elrond | CoreDump|home - SpeedEvil wants to buy 1000 at $350 and lock them down to hand them to his employees. ;-)) |
| 12:22.40 | SpeedEvil | In principle. |
| 12:23.19 | SpeedEvil | It's even possible for it to be much freer than a normal 'locked' phone - with users able to install apps that run in chroots. |
| 12:23.21 | CoreDump|home | what the customer does after the purchase is hisproblem |
| 12:23.43 | Elrond | CoreDump|home - Right. |
| 12:23.46 | SpeedEvil | Indeed - however, making it possible for customers to do this sort of thing is important. |
| 12:23.57 | CoreDump|home | "There would be 'lockdown' tools included with the package" is probably not going to fly with our FIC folks =) |
| 12:24.07 | SpeedEvil | Why not? |
| 12:24.15 | CoreDump|home | they _want_ it to be open |
| 12:24.21 | CoreDump|home | they market it as such |
| 12:24.23 | SpeedEvil | It's open - to the owner. |
| 12:24.32 | CoreDump|home | it is _the_most_open_phone_ever |
| 12:24.55 | CoreDump|home | if $owner wants to, he can lock it dow himself |
| 12:25.21 | Elrond | He could, if he had the tools. ;-) |
| 12:25.24 | SpeedEvil | Lockdown - call it 'setup for employee' then. |
| 12:25.26 | Elrond | ... that's, what SpeedEvil wants to say. |
| 12:25.42 | SpeedEvil | Option to install only signed apps, ... |
| 12:26.00 | CoreDump|home | Elrond: he has almost complete hardware and software specs and a vanilla build-environment. What more do you need to lock it down? |
| 12:26.08 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Well, the current largest "hole" is u-boot. ;-) |
| 12:26.19 | SpeedEvil | Support in the hardware to a limited extent. |
| 12:26.30 | SpeedEvil | For example, some way to configurably lock out JTAG |
| 12:26.47 | SpeedEvil | In the knowledge that if you screw u-boot, it's new motherboard time. |
| 12:27.00 | SpeedEvil | U-boot can be patched to only take signed stuff though. |
| 12:27.25 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - u-boot would need to be patched to ask a password on the usbtty, etc. ;-) |
| 12:27.33 | SpeedEvil | Sure. |
| 12:27.50 | CoreDump|home | usbtty can be disabled already |
| 12:28.10 | CoreDump|home | u-boot would only be accessible via debug-board and serial console |
| 12:28.31 | SpeedEvil | But - for example - a situation in which anyone with a properly setup laptop, access to your neo, and 60s being able to download all your stuff is bad. |
| 12:28.38 | CoreDump|home | (as long as you keep $user from editing the u-boot environment) |
| 12:28.53 | SpeedEvil | Which is as I understand it is the current case. |
| 12:28.58 | SpeedEvil | (when it goes mass production) |
| 12:29.05 | SpeedEvil | s/laptop/evil-neo/ |
| 12:29.09 | balrog-kun | you can reflash u-boot from under linux, and install one that uses LCD/touchscreen for the console |
| 12:30.35 | balrog-kun | and nice app to choose the bootsplash image etc |
| 12:31.27 | SpeedEvil | I have argued for u-boot only accepting signed upgrades for u-boot until the user somehow sets a 'no I am not an idiot' flag. |
| 12:32.05 | SpeedEvil | Which would never need to be set for those who are not developing u-boot |
| 12:33.05 | CoreDump|home | SpeedEvil: that flag would hardly accomplish anything as "The Idiot" does not think of himself as an Idiot. |
| 12:33.28 | SpeedEvil | I just mean that it would be an extra level of oops-proofing. |
| 12:33.47 | CoreDump|home | it should be more difficult to upgrade u-boot, yes |
| 12:34.00 | SpeedEvil | As the flag would not be set by default. It'd need to have a positive action to install a non 'blesssed' u-boot |
| 12:34.59 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.101.244) |
| 12:35.26 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@cpe-70-116-144-238.houston.res.rr.com) |
| 12:35.30 | *** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=orion@59.176.111.177) |
| 12:36.23 | Elrond | Well, u-boot breaking is already a bit there. |
| 12:36.45 | Elrond | u-boot accepts only new u-boots for the same hw-revision via DFU. |
| 12:37.06 | CoreDump|home | IIRC P2 will got some r/o NOR flash so you can no longer brick your neo even if you wanted to |
| 12:39.08 | *** join/#openmoko zwnj (n=behnam@194.225.70.226) |
| 12:41.50 | *** join/#openmoko madewokherd (n=urk@c-24-3-53-185.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 12:42.05 | *** join/#openmoko nop (n=nop@p54A0B381.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 12:46.47 | empty_mind | counter |
| 12:46.47 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 2 days 23:36:36 (2.984±3.0 days) (1486;230) |
| 12:46.57 | empty_mind | 2 days hmm lets hope |
| 12:50.50 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=huhh@53d82c17.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 12:52.51 | SpeedEvil | Indeed - however, there also needs - in a production version - some way of stopping someone with 30s access to your neo getting all your data. |
| 12:53.59 | buz | most phones dont stop people from doing that |
| 12:54.02 | MetaBookfoziS | screen lock?:) |
| 12:54.24 | SpeedEvil | buz: perhaps not. Should we aspire to that? |
| 12:54.48 | buz | people should use dm-crypt if they care that much |
| 12:55.48 | *** join/#openmoko mickey|fic (n=mickey@61-230-48-106.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 12:55.57 | buz | i run it on my notebook, works perfectly |
| 12:56.18 | SpeedEvil | Personally, I don't want people having my encrypted filesystem images, even if they are encrypted. |
| 12:56.19 | buz | and since you wont handle GB of sensitive data, it should not be a speed issue on neo either |
| 12:56.36 | SpeedEvil | If a password on u-boot can fix that. |
| 12:57.06 | SpeedEvil | Yes, it can't fix anything - but trimming off low-hanging fruit isn't a bad idea. |
| 12:57.07 | buz | you need to lock down linux itself if you want to prevent that |
| 12:57.22 | SpeedEvil | Nope - not from an attacker who's got a screenlocked phone. |
| 12:57.32 | SpeedEvil | and the owner has gone to the toilet. |
| 12:57.41 | buz | you want to enter a safe pin length everytime you use it? |
| 12:57.42 | buz | i dont |
| 12:57.57 | SpeedEvil | SAfe pin length isn't the issue. |
| 12:58.02 | buz | security must be convenient or it's worse than useless |
| 12:58.28 | SpeedEvil | Can pull battery, and u-boot to a 'downloader' image, for example. |
| 12:58.40 | SpeedEvil | With a password, that doesn't work. |
| 12:58.58 | buz | or he might simply steal your sd card |
| 12:59.26 | Sup3rkiddo | i am having a rather strange annoyance...my bb's arent getting updated when i update the tree...i edited task-openmoko.bb and added a recipe of my own..is that the problem? |
| 12:59.47 | mickey|fic | yes. |
| 12:59.57 | mickey|fic | monotone won't touch files you've edited |
| 13:00.21 | mickey|fic | well, actually that's not quite true. it tries to merge, doesn't it? |
| 13:00.38 | mickey|fic | mtn update at least. |
| 13:01.16 | Sup3rkiddo | hmm....actually task-openmoko.bb is getting reverted and all my changes are kaput...its the bbs that is not playing game.. |
| 13:02.09 | empty_mind | Sup3rkiddo, did you do make update after changing task-openmoko.bb ? |
| 13:02.24 | Sup3rkiddo | empty_mind, yup...and that changes it |
| 13:02.39 | empty_mind | Sup3rkiddo, yes it will change it |
| 13:02.55 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03stefan * r2273 10/trunk/oe/packages/xserver-kdrive-common/xserver-kdrive-common/etc/X11/Xserver: * Correct typo for font path. Should close #608. |
| 13:03.02 | empty_mind | Sup3rkiddo, change task-openmoko.bb afet youdo make update but before you do make |
| 13:03.10 | SpeedEvil | buz: Consider the 'install a keylogger' rather than 'download your data' case then. |
| 13:04.20 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - u-boot/DFU allows straight "backup" of the rootfs image. ;-) |
| 13:04.46 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - No need for downloading special image to u-boot for "backup" ;) |
| 13:04.50 | SpeedEvil | Does DFU even have support for a password? |
| 13:05.00 | Elrond | No :-( |
| 13:05.00 | SpeedEvil | In the protocol I mean. |
| 13:05.05 | SpeedEvil | Sigh. |
| 13:05.11 | Elrond | Or rather: AS I understand it. |
| 13:05.28 | SpeedEvil | Fine - I should read the standard too. :) |
| 13:05.51 | Sup3rkiddo | empty_mind, yeah but my bitbake recipes arent...i had to edit them manually |
| 13:05.51 | Elrond | There's a bug on this open currently: *searching* |
| 13:06.16 | Elrond | http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=207 |
| 13:08.54 | Elrond | Entering PINs on-screen in u-boot wont be fun. ;o) |
| 13:09.54 | Elrond | And needig to first minicom into your neo (with password) to enable dfu wont be very userfriendly either... I don't know really for a spec-compliant solution. :-| |
| 13:10.35 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@176.84-48-210.nextgentel.com) |
| 13:10.49 | Elrond | Hmm, the password could be first uploaded intoa virtual "password" partition. Only after which DFU to any other partition is allowed. |
| 13:10.51 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: morse your PIN with the AUX button :) |
| 13:11.11 | SpeedEvil | Put voice recognition into u-boot. |
| 13:11.33 | Elrond | stefan_schmidt - *lol* The non-geeks will term this is major geek factor. ;o) |
| 13:12.45 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - hehe. So I need to record your vouce using evil-neo first, then wait for you to go to toilet. ;o) |
| 13:13.32 | mickey|fic | apt: convert 150 UKP to EUR |
| 13:13.47 | mickey|fic | ~change 150 UKP to EUR |
| 13:13.58 | Elrond | !google convert 150 UKP to EUR |
| 13:13.59 | cdbot2 | Images @ http://images.google.com/images?um=1 | Newtek Products at Planet PC @ http://www.planetdv.net/Content/By_Manufacturer/Newtek/%20class=l | 996 brakes @ http://www.slybadger.com/cars/s2/brakedetail.htm%20class=l |
| 13:14.10 | Elrond | !google change 150 UKP to EUR |
| 13:14.10 | cdbot2 | Images @ http://images.google.com/images?um=1 | The Rookery Hotel, Farringdon, London, U @ http://www.hotelgenie.com/london/rookery.shtml%20class=l | Radio Heritage Foundation - From David's @ http://www.radioheritage.net/FDD.asp%20class=l |
| 13:14.13 | SpeedEvil | Ah - yes, but it asks for you to recite the next line in any of the Monty Python canon. |
| 13:14.24 | SpeedEvil | Because every geek knows them all! :) |
| 13:14.38 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - *giggle* :-) |
| 13:15.01 | stefan_schmidt | ~change 150 GBP to EUR |
| 13:15.11 | Sufflope_ | that's around 225€ |
| 13:15.16 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 13:15.18 | mickey|fic | thanks |
| 13:15.31 | stefan_schmidt | bots have weekend |
| 13:15.48 | mickey|fic | so basically 37.5 per night |
| 13:15.51 | mickey|fic | per person |
| 13:15.53 | mickey|fic | that's ok imho |
| 13:20.49 | Elrond | Where are you guys going? |
| 13:21.04 | schurig | mickey|fic: moin! Working? Or have you seen something of the town already? |
| 13:21.09 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: guadec |
| 13:21.22 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 13:21.55 | schurig | mickey|fic: I'm just running MokoMakefile :-) |
| 13:23.02 | *** join/#openmoko stratus (i=stratus@conference/debconf/x-67fe75cf5e44bbfd) |
| 13:23.40 | CoreDump|home | !google 150 GPB EUR |
| 13:23.41 | cdbot2 | Did you mean: 150 GBP EUR ? | Images @ http://images.google.com/images?um=1 | Second hand shop @ http://www.norlas.com/BuyersGuideUsed.asp%20class=l |
| 13:23.46 | CoreDump|home | !google 150 GPB in EUR |
| 13:23.46 | cdbot2 | Did you mean: 150 GBP in EUR ? | Images @ http://images.google.com/images?um=1 | Second hand shop @ http://www.norlas.com/BuyersGuideUsed.asp%20class=l |
| 13:24.15 | stefan_schmidt | !google 150GBP -> EUR |
| 13:24.16 | cdbot2 | 150 British pounds = 222.131209 Euros |
| 13:24.19 | stefan_schmidt | ah :) |
| 13:24.26 | madwoota | "in" |
| 13:24.41 | CoreDump|home | heh |
| 13:25.14 | Elrond | !googl convert 350 USD to EUR |
| 13:25.20 | Elrond | !google convert 350 USD to EUR |
| 13:25.21 | cdbot2 | 350 U.S. dollars = 263.019463 Euros |
| 13:25.50 | *** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 13:25.50 | mickey|fic | schurig: of course, working :) Sean and me have been relaxing today though. Sitting in a lounge for some hours, shooting pool :) |
| 13:26.14 | schurig | mickey|fic: playing pool would be work for me :-) |
| 13:26.42 | loufoque | pool isn't really a ball playing game |
| 13:26.43 | schurig | mickey|fic: if "pool" is "Billiard", that is |
| 13:26.45 | madwoota | !g 350 usd in aud |
| 13:26.46 | cdbot2 | 350 U.S. dollars = 417.860554 Australian dollars |
| 13:26.48 | empty_mind | mickey|fic, |
| 13:27.14 | Elrond | schurig - Billiard would be horror to me ;-) |
| 13:27.15 | empty_mind | mickey|fic, is the requirement for gtk devel still open ? |
| 13:27.39 | loufoque | billiard is funny when you're good at it |
| 13:28.20 | *** join/#openmoko stratus (i=stratus@conference/debconf/x-a278ae30d322bfa6) |
| 13:28.30 | balrog-kun | or when your opponent plays as poorly as you :) |
| 13:28.31 | *** join/#openmoko mmp (n=mmp@158.195.103.52) |
| 13:28.36 | Sup3rkiddo | !g 350 usd in inr |
| 13:28.38 | cdbot2 | 350 U.S. dollars = 14 293.2985 Indian rupees |
| 13:28.43 | Sup3rkiddo | kewl |
| 13:28.50 | mickey|fic | empty_mind: can't say offhand. please ask me in one week, we need to plan our software roadmap next week and this of course influences the open positions |
| 13:29.38 | *** part/#openmoko stratus (i=stratus@conference/debconf/x-a278ae30d322bfa6) |
| 13:29.39 | loufoque | !g 350 usd in eur |
| 13:29.41 | cdbot2 | 350 U.S. dollars = 263.019463 Euros |
| 13:29.46 | loufoque | wow |
| 13:29.52 | loufoque | dollar is very low these days |
| 13:31.47 | Elrond | !g 263.019463 * 1.19 |
| 13:31.47 | cdbot2 | 263.019463 * 1.19 = 312.993161 |
| 13:32.38 | schurig | Elrond: ah, living in germany as well and calculating import VAT |
| 13:32.52 | zecke | schurig: compiler or frontend? |
| 13:32.54 | madwoota | 19% vat ? |
| 13:33.05 | schurig | Einfuhrumsatzsteuer |
| 13:33.25 | Elrond | schurig - Right. There's some hope of a european reseller, which might make things cheaper... possibly. |
| 13:34.15 | schurig | zecke: with precompiled headers g++ is quite usable, but I still have the feeling that gcc is faster than g++. Without precompiled headers, gcc is way faster than g++. |
| 13:34.43 | schurig | zecke: faster while compiling, e.g. # of source code lines per second, not how fast the result is |
| 13:35.24 | mickey|fic | ya know... between you and me (and 250 others)... my attitude towards C hasn't changed... i just view it as a necessity to use it when writing a versatile framework. |
| 13:35.36 | schurig | Elrond: you think? The reseller want's to earn money as well. Also, he needs to pay for RoHS things, deal with warranties, things like that |
| 13:35.43 | mickey|fic | as soon as possible, I want to go C++ and Python |
| 13:35.45 | balrog-kun | it depends on the code, there are constructions in C++ that take n^2 time to compile (or even validate) and there's no way around it |
| 13:35.47 | mickey|fic | (personally) |
| 13:35.50 | balrog-kun | n being the number of lines |
| 13:36.30 | schurig | mickey|fic: I personally like this approach as well (Python + C++) |
| 13:36.55 | schurig | mickey|fic: or Boo and C++. Unfortunately, there are no no Boo bindings to Qt ... |
| 13:36.55 | mickey|fic | nod we'll get there |
| 13:37.07 | mickey|fic | lately i find D quite interesting as well |
| 13:38.28 | balrog-kun | g++ 3.x was quite easy to trick into using up all available memroy or "almost inifinite" time, even for a program below < 100 lines of code |
| 13:38.37 | schurig | mickey|fic: "D" has just a weird name. You can't really use Google to search for anything with "D" in it |
| 13:39.02 | schurig | mickey|fic: try "Qt D Bindings", and you get results about D-Bus |
| 13:39.19 | mickey|fic | hehe |
| 13:39.19 | Elrond | *G* |
| 13:39.30 | Elrond | Is D worth looking at? |
| 13:39.42 | madwoota | "Results 1 - 10 of about 2,730,000,000 for D" |
| 13:40.12 | schurig | Elrond: "Boo" is "a better Python, with static types and lots of goodies", but for the mono environment. "D" is "C/C++ made better", compiled to machine language |
| 13:40.21 | *** join/#openmoko drath_ (i=vmaster@p5B07E170.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:40.35 | *** join/#openmoko alexbodn (n=alex@80.179.210.108.cable.012.net.il) |
| 13:40.47 | *** part/#openmoko alexbodn (n=alex@80.179.210.108.cable.012.net.il) |
| 13:41.00 | schurig | oh, not "mono env", bit ".NET or mono env" |
| 13:41.02 | Elrond | schurig - Hmm. |
| 13:41.11 | buz | i doubt reseller can make it cheaper, can't get around VAT either |
| 13:41.28 | SpeedEvil | Well - you can. |
| 13:41.36 | SpeedEvil | But they tend to come and kick your doors in. |
| 13:41.45 | mjr | mickey, me too on the c and python bit, not so much c++ tho ;) |
| 13:42.06 | SpeedEvil | However. Remailer from europe can save significantly on the shipping. |
| 13:42.33 | schurig | buz: yes. And as soon as you commercially import electronic device, you have to report (and pay for it) to some institution that controls the waste disposal of electronic devices. The benefit for the customer is that they can bring electronic devices for free to the waste disposal points ... but the manufacturer or importeur has to pay for that. |
| 13:42.50 | buz | oh yes |
| 13:42.52 | schurig | buz: also, there is the warranty that you must fulfil by law |
| 13:42.56 | buz | but for mobile phones fee is quite slim i guess |
| 13:43.19 | buz | in switzerland at least, fee is calculated by weight and size, irrc |
| 13:43.22 | schurig | buz: then there have been judge verdicts that a device must have a german handbook, not sure if this still applies |
| 13:43.39 | schurig | and you need people (secretary, bookkeeper, warehouse workers) whatever |
| 13:43.41 | buz | weeeeeelll, dont add one ;) |
| 13:43.42 | schurig | all this adds up |
| 13:44.14 | buz | are motherboards sold with german manuals in germany? |
| 13:44.19 | buz | they sure as hell arent here |
| 13:44.21 | schurig | SpeedEvil: I'm not sure if shipping is still that expensive (but actually I don't have a clue) |
| 13:44.41 | buz | schurig: mostly depends on the speed and weight |
| 13:44.59 | schurig | buz: no, motherboards come with no or english manuals, but maybe because they are not complete devices |
| 13:45.14 | buz | 2 day switzerland - us for 2kg cost me 65E last week |
| 13:45.21 | guaqua | can you say a neo is a complete device? |
| 13:45.21 | buz | would have been much lower if it was 10day |
| 13:45.27 | schurig | buz: but then again, I'm not sure if this ruling that I heard years (>5 years!) go still applies |
| 13:45.30 | guaqua | it lacks even the most basic software for a mobile phone after all |
| 13:45.51 | buz | dont flash the software |
| 13:45.57 | buz | it's not a complete device then ;) |
| 13:46.03 | schurig | buz: LOL |
| 13:46.48 | schurig | buz: hey, even a Siemens Fujitsu computer with Vista preinstalled lacks the most basic software |
| 13:47.09 | buz | every windows machine lacks basic software |
| 13:47.29 | guaqua | computer vs mobile phone |
| 13:47.32 | madwoota | microsoft got told off for including stuff with windows |
| 13:47.48 | mickey|fic | the Neo1973 has a terminal and ssh. What more do you need?? |
| 13:47.49 | buz | heck it doesnt even have apt |
| 13:48.07 | guaqua | it will not be such a big difference in the future between those too, but at the moment i wouldn't consider a neo a complete mobile phone |
| 13:48.26 | *** join/#openmoko silwol (n=silwol@teacheradsl241.eduhi.at) |
| 13:48.53 | Elrond | Hmm, if it only comes with u-boot... ;-) |
| 13:49.15 | SpeedEvil | schurig: Not inordinately though, but it may save some, and especially may make delivery more rapid. |
| 13:49.19 | guaqua | off course, you could go print everything there is on the wiki, but ;) |
| 13:49.24 | Elrond | You don't have to pay taxes for uncomplete devices? |
| 13:49.46 | schurig | SpeedEvil: Yes, for customers it would be better, e.g. when the device is broken, thinks like that. |
| 13:49.51 | guaqua | Elrond: it's about manuals |
| 13:50.09 | SpeedEvil | Shipping for users to send them to HK tends to be expensive. |
| 13:50.15 | Elrond | guaqua - Ahh. Is there any obligation to send manuals? |
| 13:50.22 | guaqua | Elrond: in some countries yes |
| 13:50.30 | Elrond | Oh well. |
| 13:50.31 | schurig | SpeedEvil: but someone said that it would make things cheaper, and I'm not really buying into that. Heck, even software from US vendors is more costly in DE than it is in US |
| 13:50.54 | buz | schurig: partly because DE has 19% vat |
| 13:51.01 | buz | the us has ~8% IF you cant get around it |
| 13:51.03 | SpeedEvil | It could make them cheaper - mildy, it depends how it's done. |
| 13:51.41 | schurig | buz: but when you import, you have to pay the VAT anyway ... except if customs make an error or if the sender writes "GIFT" on the parcel |
| 13:52.00 | buz | if i download software, customs doesnt even know ;) |
| 13:52.03 | schurig | buz: the names are different, e.g. "Mehrwertsteuer" vs. "Einfuhrumsatzsteuer", but they end up being the same amount |
| 13:52.12 | buz | that's weird |
| 13:52.14 | SpeedEvil | s/writes/commits fraud by writing/ |
| 13:52.17 | schurig | buz: right, not for downloaded software |
| 13:52.38 | buz | maybe fic could sell devices for 100$ and force people to pay 250$ for software? |
| 13:52.44 | buz | which is then delivered by download |
| 13:53.09 | schurig | buz: however, german judges says that if you have a martialized software product (Original CD), then you can re-sell it, even if the manufacturer said otherwise. You cannot do this if you downloaded the software. Not sure if this is of importance to you (for me it is usally not) |
| 13:53.51 | buz | not sure if you couldnt resell the licence either |
| 13:53.51 | buz | way |
| 13:54.06 | buz | first sale doctrine is quite comprehensive in most of europe |
| 13:54.41 | buz | since i usually dont use commercial software, i dont care either way |
| 13:55.05 | Elrond | Hmmm, if you import to another EU-country, then ship to .de... what taxes are relevant then? |
| 13:55.47 | schurig | Elrond: the difference between the VATs. You can even get a reimbursment if you import from DK (because they have higher VAT than we) |
| 13:56.53 | buz | http://www.wwi.unizh.ch/teaching/s07/lectures/Lecture_Notes/Lecture_Notes_Chapter9.pdf |
| 13:56.58 | buz | this explains EU VAT rules |
| 13:57.01 | buz | they are kinda special |
| 13:57.29 | Elrond | I start to believe, I don't want to know. ;o) |
| 13:57.40 | schurig | buz: interesting that a swiss university explains EU VAT rules :-) |
| 13:57.50 | buz | the guy who wrote it is austrian ;) |
| 13:58.35 | stefan_schmidt | mwester: Even better. They can just change the law. :) |
| 13:59.35 | buz | besides, seeing that it was written by an economist rather than a lawyer one does stand a chance of understanding it ;) |
| 14:02.53 | SpeedEvil | mwester: And the VAT/... bits tend to be especially nasty. |
| 14:03.24 | buz | in theory vat is one of the simplest taxes |
| 14:03.31 | buz | in practice however... |
| 14:03.33 | SpeedEvil | For example, in the UK, they can take you to court, and present a little certificate saying you owe money to them, and there is no defence. |
| 14:04.19 | stefan_schmidt | Sup3rkiddo: For your bitbake recipe problem. Make sure you update your openmoko svn copy before you do a new build. The metadata in the overlay needs to be updated. |
| 14:04.33 | SpeedEvil | Also - due to carousel fraud 'Export outside EU, claim back VAT, import into EU, delay paying VAT, repeat' it can now be your problem if your trading partner doesn't pay VAT |
| 14:04.59 | SpeedEvil | Carousel fraud is worth billions per year. |
| 14:05.01 | Sup3rkiddo | stefan_schmidt, okie dokie |
| 14:05.49 | buz | you can export it to me (not in the eu ;) |
| 14:07.01 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Camera]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/es]] |
| 14:08.56 | *** join/#openmoko Kaloz (i=kaloz@openwrt/developer/Kaloz) |
| 14:09.13 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@CPE-58-170-93-82.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 14:09.18 | buz | i wonder if camera port in GTA02 could be exposed |
| 14:10.00 | buz | if there is a way to attach the camera without soldering, it would be reasonably easy to design and sell case for it... |
| 14:11.00 | SpeedEvil | Ihttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Expansion_Back - see the 'what FIC could do' bit |
| 14:12.11 | buz | that doesnt really cover camera modules? |
| 14:12.31 | Linux_Galore | mwester: not always true, here in Australia the tax dept took a billionair to court and ended up dropping the case because he could outspend their budget for the whole dept |
| 14:12.53 | SpeedEvil | buz: no, not quite. |
| 14:13.08 | SpeedEvil | I will note that unfortuantely connecotrs are rather expensive. |
| 14:13.11 | Sup3rkiddo | counter |
| 14:13.12 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 2 days 22:53:24 (2.954±3.0 days) (1487;230) |
| 14:13.23 | buz | camera or qwerty is the only thing i'd really want on GTA02 |
| 14:14.27 | Linux_Galore | not a qwerty please they are great for midgets but anyone else they are totally a waste of time |
| 14:15.24 | Linux_Galore | bigger display would be nice |
| 14:15.30 | Linux_Galore | or higher res |
| 14:15.36 | SpeedEvil | Ah yes. |
| 14:15.43 | SpeedEvil | 1280*1024 2.8" display. |
| 14:16.09 | SpeedEvil | I don't see 640*480 being too small at under 5" or so. |
| 14:16.15 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: the res on the iPhone is actually pretty high |
| 14:16.25 | buz | Linux_Galore: half of neo, yes |
| 14:16.26 | mickey|fic | how so? it's qvga |
| 14:16.35 | buz | i think its HVGA actually |
| 14:17.15 | mickey|fic | hmm 240x640 ? |
| 14:17.19 | mickey|fic | errr |
| 14:17.24 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03andrew * r2274 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/hw/s3c2410.c: Slightly speed up DMA operation (only used for audio). |
| 14:17.31 | buz | 480x280 or so |
| 14:17.35 | buz | not entirely hvga |
| 14:18.47 | Linux_Galore | 320x480 160ppi |
| 14:18.58 | buz | well neo has twice that |
| 14:19.15 | buz | 640x480 at 285 dpi |
| 14:19.44 | *** join/#openmoko unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu) |
| 14:23.26 | Linux_Galore | the lcd is actually smaller though the ipod is 3.5" were the NEO is 2.8" |
| 14:23.39 | Linux_Galore | sorry iPhone* |
| 14:24.20 | Elrond | 3.5"? Can one hold that reasonably in a small hand? |
| 14:24.39 | buz | neo would likely fit a 3.5" widescreen |
| 14:24.55 | buz | and seeing that neo is about the same size as myy p900, yes you can hold that in small hands |
| 14:25.08 | Elrond | I played with a Magellan eXplorist XL. (3.5" display), this wasn't anymor the size for a handy. |
| 14:25.27 | CoreDump|home | s/handy/mobile ;) |
| 14:25.35 | Elrond | CoreDump|home - Oh, yes. |
| 14:25.57 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2275 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/ (2 files in 2 dirs): |
| 14:25.57 | CIA-24 | openmoko: make parent_class object static. fixes #612 |
| 14:25.57 | CIA-24 | openmoko: thanks Elrond! |
| 14:25.58 | Linux_Galore | the Nokia E90 though is the one to watch though 800x352 |
| 14:26.33 | buz | yeah and probably like 1000E |
| 14:26.45 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 14:26.49 | buz | and s60 which is radically uncool for a device like that |
| 14:26.59 | Elrond | buz - Yes, the neo is okay to hold. Although my mum says it's too large. ;) |
| 14:27.15 | buz | my mother complains about my p900 too |
| 14:27.20 | buz | but not because of the sizer |
| 14:27.23 | buz | more about the weight |
| 14:27.47 | Elrond | Hmm, that wasn't a complain. But then she didn't try to carry it around. ;-) |
| 14:28.02 | buz | neo is actually quite heavy |
| 14:28.05 | Linux_Galore | I actually thought the openmoko was pretty small till I drew the dimensions on a bit of paper, its not small |
| 14:28.26 | buz | neo still easily fits normal sized pockets |
| 14:28.30 | buz | thats all that really matters |
| 14:29.14 | Linux_Galore | yeah, well the weight will be a bit heavy if you want a decent sized battery that lasts more then 1 day |
| 14:29.30 | buz | my p900 initially lasted more than a week |
| 14:29.31 | Elrond | buz - Well, you don't really want it in there, next to your keys. ;-) |
| 14:29.38 | buz | and thats 2003 technology |
| 14:29.39 | Linux_Galore | one major flaw media phones have Im finding is the battery life |
| 14:29.51 | buz | Elrond: the p900 survived that for 3,5 years |
| 14:30.05 | buz | i fully expect neo to survive it for at least 1 year or ill be mighty pissed |
| 14:30.08 | Linux_Galore | I can kill the battery charge in my Nokia N95 in a single day |
| 14:30.34 | buz | the n95 isnt quite your average phone either |
| 14:30.43 | Elrond | Linux_Galore - Right. Battery life is my major concern about the neo. |
| 14:30.54 | buz | GTA02 will have 1700mah iirc |
| 14:31.04 | Elrond | buz - Yep. |
| 14:31.12 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081E2C0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:31.13 | buz | should make 3 days i guess |
| 14:31.36 | Elrond | My current phone has 14 days. And it shows the clock (visible) all the time. ;-) |
| 14:31.57 | SpeedEvil | I wish e-ink wasn't so annoying. |
| 14:32.06 | SpeedEvil | Otherwise it'd be a nice match. |
| 14:32.06 | Linux_Galore | its not the camera on the N95 that kills the battery either now the mp3 player so much but when you run media enabled web apps, that really kills the battery |
| 14:32.33 | Linux_Galore | s/now/, nor/ |
| 14:32.44 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2276 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-messages/src/Makefile.am: |
| 14:32.44 | CIA-24 | openmoko: openmoko-messages: build and make distcheck related improvements. |
| 14:32.44 | CIA-24 | openmoko: closes #536 |
| 14:32.44 | CIA-24 | openmoko: thanks Rodolphe Ortalo! |
| 14:32.45 | buz | i dont particularly care for multiemedia web apps on a phone |
| 14:33.28 | guaqua | i care for practical apps in a phone |
| 14:33.51 | buz | exactly |
| 14:34.06 | buz | multimedia on 2.8" doesnt sound very practical to me |
| 14:34.06 | Linux_Galore | well I just want email and to make phone calls really and a decent contacts setup |
| 14:34.42 | Linux_Galore | ssh stuff is nice though |
| 14:34.45 | guaqua | i want e-mail, www and mp3 player |
| 14:35.01 | buz | ssh without qwerty is unusable |
| 14:35.09 | buz | tried that once on mine |
| 14:35.11 | guaqua | and a mapping application if it's even possible |
| 14:35.16 | guaqua | buz: true |
| 14:35.21 | Linux_Galore | buz: actual its not, you use a bt keyboard |
| 14:35.31 | guaqua | i've sometimes attached my irc screen on my nokia 66000 |
| 14:35.40 | guaqua | s/66000/6600 |
| 14:35.41 | buz | yeah like i carry a thing thats bigger than my phone |
| 14:35.59 | buz | and needs another set of batteries |
| 14:35.59 | Linux_Galore | buz: bt keyboard is actually pretty small |
| 14:36.02 | guaqua | you could have it in your backpack if you need to check out soemthing |
| 14:36.17 | zipola | I say: alternative input methods. Keyboard isn't the only way. |
| 14:36.29 | buz | i want it to read my mind$ |
| 14:36.45 | Linux_Galore | buz: try doing a long assed script edit of a file on a server with a tinker toy pda keyboard |
| 14:36.52 | buz | plus points if it can read girls' minds |
| 14:37.00 | Tronic | Icecap (Irssi2) practically eliminates my need for SSH. |
| 14:37.02 | mickey|fic | impossible :D |
| 14:37.06 | buz | wtf would you do long assed script edits on a phone |
| 14:37.32 | Tronic | I just wish that there were J2ME and GTK clients for it. |
| 14:37.32 | buz | usually emergency ssh involves things like sudo reboot |
| 14:37.39 | Linux_Galore | buz: yep, I just did one on my N95 over ssh on wifi to a server |
| 14:37.40 | buz | or sudo killall offendingprocess |
| 14:38.06 | buz | thankfully i'm no longer sysadmin |
| 14:38.24 | buz | not of anything mission critical anywaa |
| 14:38.38 | Linux_Galore | now I just need to find an irc client that works well on s60 |
| 14:38.52 | buz | bitchx over ssh |
| 14:39.52 | *** join/#openmoko Stiegmann (n=Stiegman@c-71-229-195-174.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 14:40.11 | Linux_Galore | buz: irc over ssh sux |
| 14:40.52 | guaqua | haven't found anything better than screen + irssi to date |
| 14:41.29 | balrog-kun | screen + ssh + screen + irssi is working very well for me for the last couple of years |
| 14:42.20 | *** join/#openmoko k|to (n=kito@dslb-084-063-048-206.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 14:43.15 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. First device I've seen that is 'serious' that uses internal flash only. http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/126153/rb/0 |
| 14:43.33 | schurig | buz: even IF you could read a girl's mind, you wouldn't understand a clue from this disorganized pile of thoughts |
| 14:43.53 | mickey|fic | heh |
| 14:44.00 | SpeedEvil | Sony tiny foldy laptop |
| 14:44.02 | Linux_Galore | the openmoko is bigger than the iphone physically, hmm wonder why the display is smaller though |
| 14:44.24 | buz | schurig: now theres a point |
| 14:44.46 | buz | SpeedEvil: Asus eee like i say ;) |
| 14:44.55 | SpeedEvil | Linux_Galore: basically - to a large degree it's a price thing. |
| 14:45.35 | SpeedEvil | Linux_Galore: If you are willing to spend a _lot_ more on development, you can spend more on - for example - models to work out exact optimal antenna placement |
| 14:45.47 | Linux_Galore | actually in every dimensions its bigger Openmoko v iPhone 120.7 x 62 x 18.5 mm, 115 x 61 x 11.6 mm |
| 14:46.03 | Elrond | mickey|fic - Thanks for commiting. |
| 14:46.11 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=rd@toi.yeu.phu.nu) |
| 14:46.24 | guaqua | i see no reason to compare neo with iphone |
| 14:46.26 | SpeedEvil | That's only the outside dimensions though - which are misleading. |
| 14:46.42 | guaqua | they are two different beasts |
| 14:46.44 | buz | compare iphone to SE thingies |
| 14:46.49 | buz | compare neo to well, nothing really |
| 14:46.56 | guaqua | yeah |
| 14:47.12 | buz | if it wasnt win mobile, htc s710 would be neat |
| 14:47.19 | buz | keypad and slider for 350E |
| 14:47.59 | SpeedEvil | Linux_Galore: for example - commit to enough volume, and you can have essentially everything made custom for you rather than building something in - which can save a fair bit of mass and volume. |
| 14:49.01 | Linux_Galore | SpeedEvil: yeah I know, 4 million on the first order gets people thinking |
| 14:49.39 | SpeedEvil | And vendors salivating and begging. |
| 14:50.06 | Linux_Galore | 4 million units* |
| 14:51.14 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - trademark it before they do. ;o) |
| 14:52.13 | Linux_Galore | I must thank miip for showing me the putty app for symbian , hacking on my N95 while ssh'ing into a server in another state is pretty cool |
| 14:53.52 | miip | :) |
| 14:54.27 | Elrond | *g* |
| 14:54.43 | Elrond | Sitting at my desktop and hacking on the phone is also cool. ;o) |
| 14:57.48 | Linux_Galore | hackity hackity we go http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/images/kbtutorial0.jpg |
| 14:58.57 | Linux_Galore | exactly the same setup I have |
| 14:59.50 | Linux_Galore | accept right now I have putty showing the output of a tail sript |
| 14:59.54 | Linux_Galore | script* |
| 15:02.52 | mjr | hm, I really should hack something myself already. Like a 90 degree rotated sopwith |
| 15:02.54 | Elrond | I have the opposite here: A model M in front of me, the phone at the other end of the desktop, I can't even see it. ;o) |
| 15:02.59 | *** join/#openmoko alp` (n=alp@host-84-9-46-66.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 15:03.21 | Elrond | mjr - What's a sopwith? |
| 15:03.38 | Linux_Galore | an old ww1 fighter plane |
| 15:04.23 | mjr | and an old dos game with a more recent sdl post |
| 15:04.28 | mjr | port |
| 15:04.47 | Elrond | Ahh. ;) |
| 15:05.18 | Linux_Galore | has anyone done a tetris port for the NEO yet |
| 15:05.21 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning_ (n=blueligh@222-155-211-78.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 15:05.34 | Elrond | Debian/stable has it for arm. ;-) |
| 15:05.40 | Elrond | So it should run on the Neo. ;o) |
| 15:06.21 | mjr | speaking of rotating, could moko's X server do that with any reasonable efficiency, because I currently work on the assumption that no |
| 15:06.25 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2277 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/src/buttonactions.c: openmoko-panel-mainmenu: give some feedback during powerdown / restart |
| 15:07.05 | mjr | of course the gpu may change things... |
| 15:07.27 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - *lol* I'm imaging children chaking the Neo to get the pieces at the right places. ;o) |
| 15:07.55 | Elrond | mjr - Do "xrandr -o right" and be scared. ;o) |
| 15:08.05 | Linux_Galore | or play a tilt marbles game |
| 15:08.05 | mjr | oh, and is there modeswitching code for fullscreen qvga yet? |
| 15:09.57 | mjr | I really should install a moko environment for myself, have been lazy for lack of hw |
| 15:09.58 | Linux_Galore | goto love users, just created a new account with a new name sent an email a few hours ago telling them not to use the old account and they have just tried to use the old account and I can see an email heading my way......sigh |
| 15:10.33 | Elrond | Cooolio... I tried "xrandr -o right" on my desktop. I love Xorg. My Xserver got a SEGV. ;o) |
| 15:11.04 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2278 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/moko-banner.c: libmokoui/moko-banner: tweak look |
| 15:11.28 | Linux_Galore | mickey is busy |
| 15:11.32 | Elrond | mickey is hacking away. :-) |
| 15:11.48 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2279 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (ChangeLog libmokoui/moko-ui.h): libmokoui/moko-ui: add convenience function for showing a MokoBanner |
| 15:12.18 | *** join/#openmoko Free_maN (n=freenux@82.254.38.119) |
| 15:12.49 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2280 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/ (moko-scrolled-pane.c moko-scrolled-pane.h): |
| 15:12.49 | CIA-24 | openmoko: libmokoui/moko-scrolled-pane.*: add function for tweaking position of |
| 15:12.49 | CIA-24 | openmoko: fullscreen toggle button. NOTE: don't rely on that API yet, it may |
| 15:12.49 | CIA-24 | openmoko: vanish again... |
| 15:13.11 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2281 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/examples/openmoko-stylus-demo/src/demo-main.c: openmoko-stylus-demo: utilize some of the new functions in libmokoui |
| 15:13.45 | Linux_Galore | Elrond: like the comits live journal in irc |
| 15:15.43 | Linux_Galore | anyway Im off to bed its 1am here, Ive but $350 US peso's to the side for the release |
| 15:17.25 | SpeedEvil | Wave. |
| 15:18.04 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: Gently. |
| 15:18.54 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@halls-129-31-82-59.hor.ic.ac.uk) |
| 15:19.44 | *** join/#openmoko chris^^ (n=kraetzi@ACB6D75E.ipt.aol.com) |
| 15:19.52 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Hmmm? |
| 15:20.54 | SpeedEvil | Tetris. |
| 15:20.58 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2282 10/trunk/oe/packages/libxosd/ (files/use-sane-default-font.patch libxosd_svn.bb): |
| 15:20.58 | CIA-24 | openmoko: oe/libxosd: add patch making libxosd using 'fixed' as default font -- |
| 15:20.58 | CIA-24 | openmoko: this font is guaranteed to be always present on the Xserver |
| 15:20.58 | CIA-24 | openmoko: (remember, this is core font, not freetype or xft) |
| 15:21.05 | SpeedEvil | That's why it's got a lanyard-hole anyway. |
| 15:24.24 | *** part/#openmoko Freed (n=jecsar@mac33-2-82-225-98-209.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 15:24.46 | Elrond | shot-putt? |
| 15:27.09 | SpeedEvil | Secure lanyard, wind up, and throw as hard as you can. (it being caught on the lanyard). Tells you how far it would have flown. |
| 15:27.34 | mjr | hmm. Lanyard. Accelerometer. Spin-your-moko contests. |
| 15:27.45 | *** join/#openmoko chris^^ (n=kraetzi@ACB6D75E.ipt.aol.com) |
| 15:28.09 | mjr | yeah |
| 15:28.22 | SpeedEvil | Could also do virtual powerball. |
| 15:30.03 | xkr47 | lool |
| 15:30.28 | xkr47 | it could have a built in powerball to generate electricity to charge the thing :) |
| 15:35.12 | Elrond | hehe |
| 15:35.30 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-33.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 15:35.38 | Elrond | I already see (adult) childs doing nasty thingy to their neo. ;o) |
| 15:35.52 | xkr47 | you have a mirror ?-) |
| 15:36.26 | Elrond | xkr47 - I mean more like "Hey, look, I can create 8g using my hands" ;o) |
| 15:37.26 | xkr47 | make sure you don't blackout or redout :) |
| 15:43.29 | Elrond | Fun. I have a query for the gps-chip, that timeouts on the chip it seems. ;-) |
| 15:43.43 | Elrond | At least I don't get a response within one second. ;-) |
| 15:46.10 | Elrond | Only the header as answer, within 20secs of waiting... fun. |
| 15:46.53 | *** join/#openmoko ph|ber (n=phiber@8.7.103.195) |
| 15:47.03 | ph|ber | y0.. is the FIC phone released yet? |
| 15:47.03 | aloril | ph|ber: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 15:48.09 | SpeedEvil | No |
| 15:48.41 | ph|ber | yea just read the wiki.. anyone know about the e28 phones? |
| 15:52.11 | *** join/#openmoko wooddragon (n=orion@59.176.111.177) |
| 15:54.41 | SpeedEvil | When the exhaust gets out of the generator, it's too cool to burn in the air - CO will burn. |
| 15:54.43 | SpeedEvil | oosp |
| 15:59.13 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04_ (n=amarsh04@CPE-124-182-92-187.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 15:59.55 | LuitvD | ph|ber: not really. e28 doesn't communicate... |
| 16:00.07 | ph|ber | ive noticed.. |
| 16:00.11 | ph|ber | i want to buy one. |
| 16:00.17 | LuitvD | which one? |
| 16:00.19 | ph|ber | cant get no one to contact me or answer. |
| 16:00.22 | ph|ber | the hawk |
| 16:00.22 | LuitvD | let me guess, e2881? |
| 16:00.25 | LuitvD | hmm |
| 16:00.29 | ph|ber | no.. acually |
| 16:00.33 | ph|ber | i would like the 2882 |
| 16:00.37 | LuitvD | me too :P |
| 16:00.50 | LuitvD | HSDPA/WiMAX :) |
| 16:01.01 | ph|ber | :> |
| 16:01.11 | ph|ber | im looking for a new phone.. and was looking at the iphone. |
| 16:01.13 | ph|ber | but....... |
| 16:01.14 | LuitvD | big, BIG smile |
| 16:01.27 | schurig | mjr: x-server-i810 can rotate the screen, and it does it by software (!) |
| 16:01.49 | thresh | this is done via xrandr |
| 16:01.56 | LuitvD | iPhone's lock-in sucks |
| 16:01.58 | ph|ber | you wouldnt happen to have had a "hands on" with the iphone would ya? |
| 16:02.21 | ph|ber | probally the only thing that would make me NOT get it.. it is not 3G |
| 16:02.24 | ph|ber | just edge |
| 16:02.25 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@X17e6.x.pppool.de) |
| 16:02.31 | ph|ber | and im sure.. that v2.0 will be |
| 16:02.32 | ph|ber | heh |
| 16:02.35 | ph|ber | and soon after |
| 16:02.38 | ph|ber | more than likely. |
| 16:03.26 | *** join/#openmoko jean (n=jean@85-18-201-163.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 16:03.59 | ph|ber | so you would get an iphone? |
| 16:04.07 | Rince | no |
| 16:04.19 | ph|ber | anyone used the imcosys's? |
| 16:05.34 | alphaone | ph|ber: Imcosys is vaporware atm |
| 16:05.43 | alphaone | Or at least so it seems |
| 16:06.01 | ph|ber | really?? |
| 16:06.12 | ph|ber | someone emailed me and said it was available. |
| 16:06.45 | alphaone | ph|ber: If that's the case I'd be interested in talking to him |
| 16:06.54 | *** join/#openmoko njpatel (n=njp@5ac0473c.bb.sky.com) |
| 16:07.01 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] [[Calculator]] |
| 16:07.16 | ph|ber | well, i asked a few questions, and it does not do video |
| 16:07.19 | alphaone | imcosys told me they's distribute the GPL'd stuff on a CD when you buy the phone |
| 16:07.40 | ph|ber | http://www.slashphone.com/77/7174.html |
| 16:07.45 | ph|ber | i like that pic of the fic |
| 16:08.09 | alphaone | ph|ber: It's not a pic, though |
| 16:08.17 | ph|ber | ? |
| 16:08.18 | alphaone | It's photoshopped |
| 16:08.20 | ph|ber | ahh |
| 16:08.30 | alphaone | or rendered |
| 16:09.04 | ph|ber | so that leaves the e28s.. anyone have one? or know where to get em? |
| 16:09.19 | *** join/#openmoko rob__w (n=bob@X1248.x.pppool.de) |
| 16:09.22 | ph|ber | or better yet.. what linux based phones are use? and are liked. |
| 16:10.18 | alphaone | linux based or free? |
| 16:10.25 | ph|ber | ?? |
| 16:10.57 | ph|ber | this is what i would like.. linux based, mp3, video, wifi, bluetooth, and possible 3g but edge will do. |
| 16:11.06 | ph|ber | gsm |
| 16:11.09 | ph|ber | for at&t |
| 16:11.15 | ph|ber | \/cingular |
| 16:11.31 | *** join/#openmoko Sufflope (n=Sufflope@crj95-3-82-237-151-219.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 16:13.02 | alphaone | ph|ber: That's what I'm waiting for, too :-) |
| 16:13.14 | ph|ber | :> |
| 16:13.29 | ph|ber | although i would like video.. it is not a must have.. i have a video ipod |
| 16:13.30 | alphaone | ph|ber: Do you want linux based for hacking or why? |
| 16:13.41 | ph|ber | linux is all i use.. im a system admin. |
| 16:13.45 | ph|ber | been using slackware since 1995 |
| 16:14.08 | alphaone | You could look at some of the motorola phones |
| 16:14.16 | ph|ber | i saw the rokr |
| 16:14.32 | alphaone | The A910 even has wifi. But not sure if it's available in US |
| 16:15.58 | ph|ber | would rather have a touch screen |
| 16:16.29 | ph|ber | wonder if the Q will run linux |
| 16:17.26 | alphaone | The HTC don't come with linux, but some of the devices are already supported |
| 16:17.33 | ph|ber | damn.. looks like it pushing toward the iphone |
| 16:17.49 | alphaone | ? |
| 16:17.51 | ph|ber | had one of the htc's didnt like it so much |
| 16:20.43 | *** join/#openmoko heikkit (n=chatzill@c-67-169-183-182.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 16:24.45 | ph|ber | does the rokr have an SDK? |
| 16:25.06 | zipola | I doubt. |
| 16:25.38 | ph|ber | wonder how "customizeable" it is |
| 16:26.21 | ph|ber | what OS is on the Sony Ericsson P1i |
| 16:26.37 | ph|ber | oh the symbian |
| 16:27.57 | ph|ber | hrm. it looks pretty sweet |
| 16:29.30 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 16:33.54 | *** join/#openmoko vosen (n=v0@86-63-84-163.asta-net.com.pl) |
| 16:35.42 | *** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=orion@59.176.111.177) |
| 16:42.20 | ph|ber | hrm. what about the nokia n80 |
| 16:44.06 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@halls-129-31-82-59.hor.ic.ac.uk) |
| 16:44.38 | thomasg_gpm | symbian9 series60 3rd edition |
| 16:45.00 | ph|ber | dont think i have had a phone with symbian.. how is it? |
| 16:45.26 | thomasg_gpm | the n80 or symbian? |
| 16:45.32 | ph|ber | symbian |
| 16:46.04 | thomasg_gpm | well, symbian is only the platform, the gui and the other stuff depends on the software above. I don't think that symbian is bad - imho its a good os for smartphones |
| 16:47.45 | *** join/#openmoko poffy_ (n=poffy@cpe-70-116-144-238.houston.res.rr.com) |
| 16:48.39 | ph|ber | i would also liek a gps on it. |
| 16:48.40 | ph|ber | :> |
| 16:49.37 | thomasg_gpm | nokia also has phones with gps |
| 16:49.52 | thomasg_gpm | e.g. the N95, the E90, and maybe others |
| 16:50.04 | thomasg_gpm | there are also series40 (non-symbian) devices with gps inside |
| 16:50.42 | *** join/#openmoko rsavoye_ (n=rob@moongulch.net) |
| 16:51.23 | ph|ber | hrm. now the e90 looks promising |
| 16:51.48 | rsavoye_ | is it possible to order hardware for developers yet ? |
| 16:52.03 | mjr | no, not yet |
| 16:52.16 | rsavoye_ | bummer. I wanted to port Gnash to it. |
| 16:52.39 | mjr | well, you can start now |
| 16:52.47 | rsavoye_ | we alresdy support open embedded |
| 16:53.06 | mjr | rsavoye_, great |
| 16:53.09 | rsavoye_ | too bad, go kil somebody at Adobe instead. |
| 16:53.29 | ph|ber | is the e90 out yet? |
| 16:53.34 | rsavoye_ | We're now handling YouTube at over 10fps on similar devices... |
| 16:53.38 | roh | rsavoye_ you can try getting it to work on the emulator (qemu). then it will work on real hardware also |
| 16:53.58 | rsavoye_ | roh: ah, a URL for a QEMU image ? That'll be fine. |
| 16:54.21 | balrog-kun | i'm not sure if the bug is in Gnash or in firefox, but it DOSes my computer every couple of days when a page contains an .swf |
| 16:54.31 | roh | rsavoye_ we have a patched qemu which emulates the real hardware. but afaik there are no binary builds of it |
| 16:54.43 | ph|ber | thomasg_gpm: have you seen the e90??? |
| 16:54.51 | rsavoye_ | balrog-kun: which distro are you runing ? Which version of Gnash ? We just release 0.8.0 |
| 16:54.52 | *** join/#openmoko wooddragon (n=orion@59.176.111.177) |
| 16:55.15 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: You're aware of flashblock? |
| 16:55.22 | thomasg_gpm | ph|ber, no, I haven't, but some magazines already tested it |
| 16:55.33 | balrog-kun | rsavoye_: i'm running Gentoo, the version is... |
| 16:55.43 | rsavoye_ | balrog-kun: Gentoo is your problem then, sorry. |
| 16:55.44 | ph|ber | theres a couple on ebay. |
| 16:55.51 | ph|ber | http://my-symbian.com/s60v3/review_e90.php |
| 16:56.01 | balrog-kun | rsavoye_: oh, 0.7.2, i will upgrade in a moment |
| 16:56.13 | rsavoye_ | balrog-kun: that's ancient... |
| 16:56.17 | thomasg_gpm | well, for me it is definately too big. I plan to buy a e61i |
| 16:56.26 | balrog-kun | whenever i hear it start swapping aggressively, if i don't do "killall gnash" in 20 seconds, they PC becomes unresponsive so badly that it can't be killed anymore, and neither firefox nor gnash get killed by the OOM killer, weird |
| 16:56.34 | balrog-kun | SpeedEvil: no, what's that? |
| 16:56.43 | ph|ber | http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270132530664 |
| 16:56.43 | rsavoye_ | balrog-kun: that's a 7 month old version of Gnash... |
| 16:56.59 | rsavoye_ | 0.8.0 is *much* better than 0.7.2. |
| 16:57.06 | roh | balrog-kun is the noise qemu outputs on start normal or is there still a sound-emu problem? |
| 16:57.21 | balrog-kun | rsavoye_: just noticed there's even a package for building snapshots out of cvs, gonna upgrade now |
| 16:57.44 | rsavoye_ | you don't want CVS from this week. :-) |
| 16:57.45 | SpeedEvil | balrog-kun: it puts up a little 'play' icon in the middle of any flash, and doesn't load it till you click on it. It's an extension for FF |
| 16:57.49 | balrog-kun | roh: it's a bug in the DMA, i will be debugging it today |
| 16:58.06 | balrog-kun | roh: the noise the real neo makes on startup is slightly different |
| 16:58.06 | roh | balrog-kun super.. |
| 16:58.11 | balrog-kun | although not much nicer to ears |
| 16:58.12 | roh | *g* |
| 16:58.30 | rsavoye_ | SpeedEvil: we also added an option to Gnash that can turn off every flash movie, and let you select the ones you want. |
| 16:58.37 | balrog-kun | SpeedEvil: cool, thanks for the pointer |
| 16:59.33 | SpeedEvil | Nice ras: |
| 17:03.46 | rsavoye_ | balrog-kun: if you have anymore problems with Gnash, try #gnash. |
| 17:06.12 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE000fb55e466d-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 17:06.24 | balrog-kun | when i first installed gnash i actually went to this channel, and whatever issues i had the answer was something like "this isn't supposed to work and currently nobody is working on implemeting this, maybe in sometime in the future" |
| 17:08.09 | balrog-kun | btu that must have changed since youtube support was also not supposed to work and nobody was working on implementing it and now i read that it's already almost completely working |
| 17:13.33 | *** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 17:21.38 | thomasg_gpm | ph|ber, the ebay auction is a fake. you wouldn't ever see the device, nor your money |
| 17:21.38 | ph|ber | how do you know it is fake |
| 17:21.39 | guaqua | there are about ~50 out there |
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| 18:07.01 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hammerhead_protocol]] |
| 18:07.51 | pH5 | ooh, Hammerhead_protocol changes? |
| 18:08.35 | SpeedEvil | A) typos B) GPL driver announce C) Underpants |
| 18:09.39 | *** join/#openmoko orion__ (n=orion@59.176.111.177) |
| 18:10.27 | ph|ber | thomasg_gpm: is the nokia 9500 comunicator the same as the e90?? |
| 18:12.44 | Elrond | WEEEE! I have a ms clock on the GPS ;-) |
| 18:15.11 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@59.92.48.212) |
| 18:16.16 | pH5 | Elrond: where? |
| 18:16.19 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@176.84-48-210.nextgentel.com) |
| 18:16.27 | SpeedEvil | Awesome. |
| 18:17.06 | stefan_schmidt | Perhaps we should delay GTA01 a bit to get a free GPS driver ready from the start? ;) |
| 18:17.50 | SpeedEvil | That'll probably be the time reading from the local clock |
| 18:18.12 | pH5 | stefan_schmidt: heh, that would probably be a not-so-popular decision :D |
| 18:18.57 | stefan_schmidt | pH5: So the only solution I see is that your guys work faster then. (Just kidding) |
| 18:19.04 | *** join/#openmoko LetoTo (n=paul@76-10-144-1.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 18:19.04 | pH5 | Elrond: go go go! |
| 18:19.13 | Elrond | stefan_schmidt - *lol* ! :-) |
| 18:19.50 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Yeah, it must be some local clock... and one must start it. I'm now removing init-code to see, what starts it. ;o) |
| 18:20.14 | Elrond | I just verified, that it really is a ms clock. Using variable delay loops on the cpu. ;-) |
| 18:20.38 | Rince | good evening ;) |
| 18:20.44 | Elrond | Hi Rince :-) |
| 18:21.25 | *** join/#openmoko guest_ (n=guest@adsl-64-161-117-110.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 18:23.29 | Elrond | hehe... I mistuned it, it seems. ;o) |
| 18:24.03 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@ACB6D75E.ipt.aol.com) |
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| 18:26.52 | SpeedEvil | Look on the couple of page sheet - it's got a reference to VCXO - this is a voltage controlled oscillator. It's an accurate crystal, trimmable to exact freq, with a voltage. |
| 18:27.17 | SpeedEvil | This is the local clock that the satellites are comapred against. |
| 18:28.17 | Elrond | Ahhh. |
| 18:28.36 | Elrond | Well, I disabled a bit of init sequence... and now it runs double speed. |
| 18:28.50 | SpeedEvil | It's not tunable that far. |
| 18:28.57 | SpeedEvil | It'll be a few dozen PPM |
| 18:29.20 | SpeedEvil | But there may be a PLL or a divider in there somewhere on the chipside |
| 18:30.33 | Elrond | Well, I see a millisecond clock. So that's far away from the sat stuff, I'd say. |
| 18:30.43 | *** join/#openmoko stratus (i=stratus@conference/debconf/x-e486218e2b6eaf48) |
| 18:30.49 | SpeedEvil | It's the basics though. |
| 18:32.28 | SpeedEvil | All the sat stuff will have timings with regards to that. |
| 18:33.11 | Elrond | Yeah. |
| 18:35.25 | Elrond | SEND L 03 CH 0 FL 4 CMD 04: 92 24 11 02 7b 39 8e 23 00 00 00 00 7b 39 8e 23 |
| 18:35.32 | Elrond | SEND L 02 CH 0 FL 0 CMD 08: 40 20 00 00 40 20 00 00 44 20 00 00 |
| 18:35.39 | Elrond | Those two are needed to start the clock. ;o) |
| 18:36.47 | Elrond | These are the longest in the init part... |
| 18:38.58 | *** join/#openmoko chreekat (n=b@32.235.125.209.transedge.com) |
| 18:39.28 | koen | has someone already started an SCM repo for the hammerhead stuff? |
| 18:40.38 | *** join/#openmoko dcordes (n=erdinger@f048006024.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 18:42.00 | Elrond | koen - I don't know. If projects.openmoko.org's SVN would wokr, that could be used... otherwise *looking for h r w .... ;o))* I'd prefer git. ;o) |
| 18:42.19 | koen | sf.net? |
| 18:42.25 | koen | savannah? |
| 18:42.27 | koen | gna? |
| 18:42.30 | koen | berlios? |
| 18:42.33 | koen | linuxtogo? |
| 18:43.31 | koen | djeez, gnash sucks donkey balls when it comes to autotools and pkgconfig usage |
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| 18:44.27 | thomasg_gpm | ph|ber, no, the 9500 is a old device with only gsm, no edge, no umts, no hsdpa, only wifi 802.11b and a poor display |
| 18:45.08 | thomasg_gpm | the e90 is a new device with edge, umts, wifi 802.11g, gps, ... |
| 18:45.22 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: depending on how integrated the VCO is - it should be that if you twiddle one or two of those bytes, then it will slow or speed up the clock by 100ppm or so. |
| 18:46.46 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Yeah, I thought something like that... I still wonder, if I could break the chip somehow. |
| 18:47.13 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: Try it. :) |
| 18:47.39 | SpeedEvil | IMO - breaking the chip is basically extremely unlikely. |
| 18:48.28 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Well, I remember all those stories about say the floppy drive of the C64 (or whatever it was), which could be broken by sending a nice command to it. ;-) |
| 18:48.48 | Elrond | ... or CPUs, which could be burnt or so. ;-) |
| 18:49.08 | Elrond | stefan_schmidt - Well, if I break it, I don't have a toy anymore. ;o) |
| 18:50.00 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: heh |
| 18:50.58 | guaqua | not much i can add to that, koen :) |
| 18:51.28 | koen | it gets autoconf wrong, pkgconfig wrong, includes wrong and possible more |
| 18:51.49 | koen | I say 'possibly' because getting it to start compiling seems impossible |
| 18:52.10 | high-rez | counter |
| 18:52.11 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 2 days 20:33:54 (2.857±2.9 days) (1488;230) |
| 18:52.18 | Elrond | koen - repos: As long, as it's not sf, I'm happy with anything. |
| 18:52.34 | guaqua | koen: so it's an immediate positive for openembedded? :D |
| 18:53.22 | koen | guaqua: I've wasted the last 2 hours getting it past configure |
| 18:53.48 | koen | you may only specify the include dirs, because it breaks if you specify the lib dirs as well |
| 18:53.57 | balrog-kun | s/bost/boost/ |
| 18:54.07 | koen | balrog-kun: --disable-cygnal and boost is gone |
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| 18:54.21 | balrog-kun | oh, that's good to know |
| 18:54.39 | koen | (since it can't properly detect boost during cross-compiling) |
| 18:55.19 | guaqua | so you need to patch the hell out of it ;) |
| 18:55.21 | koen | hmmm |
| 18:55.25 | koen | gnash lies |
| 18:55.30 | balrog-kun | plus my system generally doesn't like compiling big C++ packages and likes to run out of memory and make OOM kill all my other programs |
| 18:55.48 | koen | it does need boost, it will just error out with unresolved symbols if you disable it |
| 18:55.56 | koen | POS gnu software |
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| 19:20.32 | Elrond | 1000.08 +/- 0.09864 (0.009864%) |
| 19:20.45 | Elrond | Okay... I guess, I have something to measure the clock, when I play with it. ;o) |
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| 19:31.57 | Elrond | 990.098 +/- 0.1778 (0.01796%) |
| 19:33.27 | rlozier | hello |
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| 19:34.46 | *** join/#openmoko AngryPenguin (n=AngryPen@oh-76-1-17-115.dyn.embarqhsd.net) |
| 19:35.26 | Elrond | HI rl |
| 19:35.33 | Elrond | Huh. |
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| 19:36.35 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Hmm, would a 596.5MHz base clock make any sense to youß |
| 19:36.36 | Elrond | ? |
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| 19:48.37 | Elrond | Theory: This thing can be tuned in 2.6Hz steps for doppler shifting. ;o) |
| 19:53.32 | AngryPenguin | can someone help me with an error? im trying to setup the dev environment under qemu. |
| 19:53.33 | aloril | Commands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (link to FAQ in wiki) |
| 19:53.41 | pH5 | Elrond: shouldn't there be a different clock for each channel then? |
| 19:54.24 | koen | gnash 0.8.0 is now available in OE |
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| 19:58.10 | AngryPenguin | anybody? |
| 19:58.19 | *** join/#openmoko mwester-laptop (n=nnmweste@gw.mwester.net) |
| 19:58.58 | balrog-kun | AngryPenguin: what's the error? |
| 19:59.31 | AngryPenguin | mtn: error: I/O failure while talking to peer monotone.openembedded.org, disconnecting |
| 19:59.31 | AngryPenguin | make: *** [setup-mtn] Error 1 |
| 19:59.43 | AngryPenguin | im at "make setup" |
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| 20:01.14 | balrog-kun | i'm afraid i have no idea how to deal with monotone errors |
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| 20:02.06 | AngryPenguin | i dont even understand what the hell monotone is. Is there a better way to do this? |
| 20:02.40 | AngryPenguin | i just wanna play around with the software |
| 20:03.50 | balrog-kun | AngryPenguin: it looks like some network error while downloading the code from openembedded |
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| 20:04.01 | mrcucumber | any news? |
| 20:04.28 | schurig | AngryPenguin: can you "ping monotone.openembedded.org" ? |
| 20:04.57 | AngryPenguin | yes |
| 20:05.12 | schurig | AngryPenguin: and if you can: are you sure that there is no firewall between you and monotone.openembedded.org, blocking the TCP connection of mtn to them? |
| 20:05.14 | AngryPenguin | it gets partway through the process but then throws this error |
| 20:05.55 | AngryPenguin | it fails about a quarter of the way through every time |
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| 20:06.04 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: I can't see any simple relationship between that and any other signals. |
| 20:06.36 | schurig | AngryPenguin: that would be TCP port 4691 |
| 20:06.56 | SpeedEvil | pH5: Not really - this is a local clock, for local timing. We need no multiple clocks here. |
| 20:07.29 | schurig | AngryPenguin: so you already go "mtn: bytes in | bytes out | certs in | revs in" with some numbers below bytes-in and bytes-out ? |
| 20:07.39 | AngryPenguin | yep |
| 20:07.51 | schurig | AngryPenguin: too bad. It works for me :-) |
| 20:08.02 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Minime/sketch]] [[Hammerhead_protocol]] |
| 20:08.03 | AngryPenguin | it gets to ~6.8M in, then fails |
| 20:08.17 | schurig | AngryPenguin: maybe your monotone db is hosed, you could try deleting it, re-wgetting the snapshot and start over |
| 20:08.58 | schurig | AngryPenguin: but that is a wild guess |
| 20:09.20 | schurig | AngryPenguin: another option would be to turn on Monotones verbosity and debug stuff. And then re-ask in #monotone |
| 20:09.23 | AngryPenguin | we need a freakin .deb for this or at least a tarball of everything you need in one spot |
| 20:09.50 | schurig | AngryPenguin: hehe, OE should have used GIT in the first place :-) |
| 20:10.32 | AngryPenguin | usually i am good about figuring this kinda stuff out based on error messages, but i am totally lost here |
| 20:10.43 | schurig | AngryPenguin: I'm currently using MokoMakefile, and the Monotone refresh was no problem (but I had OE already on my box, because I'm using it in other projects) |
| 20:11.49 | schurig | AngryPenguin: "i dont even understand what the hell monotone is" Monotone is a slow, but secure distributed source code revision system. Like bzr, git, Mercury and several others. |
| 20:11.54 | AngryPenguin | oh well, i guess i just wont be able to contribute in any meaningful way. Perhaps i will try again in the future. |
| 20:11.57 | AngryPenguin | thanks for the help |
| 20:19.08 | kiney_ | counter |
| 20:19.09 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 2 days 19:50:26 (2.827±2.8 days) (1489;230) |
| 20:23.50 | balrog-kun | except git is not that slow :) |
| 20:24.23 | SpeedEvil | Another idea for neo expansion. http://xs109.xs.to/xs109/06484/SithArmy.jpg |
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| 20:34.29 | deepank | angrypenguin:I also got the same error message as you but then restarted it and it has now moved on |
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| 20:59.30 | Elrond | Hmm, in cold2.log I can only find one "setup master clock" command. So this flexibility is just an "unused feature" it seems. |
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| 21:40.17 | CoreDump | I'm getting "dialer-window-history.c:(.text+0x0): multiple definition of `moko_ui_banner_show_text'" |
| 21:40.28 | CoreDump | is anyone else hitting this? |
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| 22:07.02 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hammerhead_protocol]] |
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| 22:15.06 | ruimoreir1 | hi here |
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| 22:36.38 | nox-Hand | counter |
| 22:36.39 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 2 days 18:41:40 (2.779±2.8 days) (1490;230) |
| 22:36.45 | nox-Hand | 2 days :o |
| 22:36.51 | nox-Hand | estimation |
| 22:36.52 | nox-Hand | ;) |
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| 23:30.59 | balrog-kun | hmm i made a new task in Tasks, then deleted it and quit Tasks and the task still appeared in the 'today' screen |
| 23:31.53 | stefan_schmidt | balrog-kun: sounds like tasks did not removed it from eds or today have not polled eds again. :) |
| 23:33.34 | balrog-kun | stefan_schmidt: ah, perhaps |
| 23:34.36 | stefan_schmidt | balrog-kun: If you can reproduce and perhaps track it down a bugreport would be good. o-hand guys should know how to fix that easily. |
| 23:36.21 | balrog-kun | ah, i can tell them directly :) |
| 23:36.50 | stefan_schmidt | ah, you are also working for o-hand, right? |
| 23:37.44 | balrog-kun | stefan_schmidt: yes, just wasn't sure if this was a bug or a feature :) and if others have perhaps seen it |
| 23:38.33 | stefan_schmidt | balrog-kun: I never tried it, but it should be consistent. If you deleted the tasks today should not show it. |
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| 23:38.44 | Elrond | Yuck... lowlevel trigger pulses on the hh-protocol. I love that. |
| 23:38.57 | balrog-kun | stefan_schmidt: okay, i will be reporting |
| 23:39.11 | Elrond | balrog-kun - Just make sure it's reproducible. |
| 23:39.17 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: So you making good progress it seems |
| 23:39.31 | Elrond | stefan_schmidt - Well, I start to guess up things. |
| 23:39.44 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: Always a good start. |
| 23:39.45 | Elrond | stefan_schmidt - Most stuff I'm finding out ends up in the wiki. ;o) |
| 23:41.17 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: That is also good. |
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| 23:41.51 | wehttamb | counter |
| 23:41.52 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 2 days 18:09:04 (2.756±2.8 days) (1491;230) |
| 23:42.14 | *** join/#openmoko ossman (n=drzeus@85.8.24.16.se.wasadata.net) |
| 23:43.34 | Elrond | Hi ossman! |
| 23:43.43 | ossman | evening |
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| 23:51.54 | Elrond | Hmm, let's see, if this really is triggering like in our lab equipment. ;-) |
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