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| 00:18.19 | balrog-kun | so current openmoko-dialer works very nicely compared to a four days ago snapshot, i even managed to receive calls, but it segfaults when canceling an outgoing call and won't start up again |
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| 00:35.33 | balrog-kun | and stracing the dialer is not so easy... |
| 00:35.55 | Vegar | why not gdb? |
| 00:37.00 | balrog-kun | because strace shows me the... well.. strace output |
| 00:37.39 | Vegar | right |
| 00:37.45 | hads | heh |
| 00:40.29 | Vegar | I prefer gdb for debugging, but that's me |
| 00:40.56 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Phone_Number_Field]] [[GPS]] |
| 00:41.06 | Kensan | Something should be done about Wiki-Spammers. |
| 00:42.44 | balrog-kun | i'm gonna reboot and try gdb now |
| 00:42.56 | balrog-kun | i straced the sucker but it didn't tell me much |
| 00:52.23 | balrog-kun | when the program segfaulted and is paused in gdb, it's not responding to X events but the transparency still works ok, when you draw something over the dialer window |
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| 01:06.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 597 has been created by balrogg@gmail.com |
| 01:06.01 | cdbot2 | * * openmoko-dialer segfaults on cacelling an outgoing call |
| 01:06.02 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=597 |
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| 02:03.13 | aloril | hmm.. what is GTA02, GTA01Bv4? "device type name"? |
| 02:05.05 | aloril | if you have followed IRC, then you know already, but added 1 'news' item and fudged P2 dates: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter |
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| 02:12.05 | SpeedEvil | Mmmm. Fudge... |
| 02:22.35 | aloril | also updated http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter#Talk_by_Sean_Moss-Pultz_and_Harald_Welte_2007-06-06 |
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| 02:40.36 | aloril | from outside slides added GTA02: "(talk) 2x 3D accelerometers" and GTA03>=: Definitely going to 3D and even more integration with all kinds of peripherals. It needs time but actually having quite good success in getting number of hardware manufacturers to open specification/documentation. It might even happen that Linux mobile phones might have more open graphics than most desktop systems. |
| 02:40.54 | aloril | (into earlier link) |
| 02:40.56 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]] [[User_talk:LvyL80]] |
| 02:41.22 | SpeedEvil | The accelerometer that harald mentioned in the mailing list can't meaningfully be used more than one of in the phone. |
| 02:42.13 | SpeedEvil | It's so insensitive that you basically can't easily generate enough motion for the accelerometer to read roll information out of the noise when you are hand-holding it. |
| 02:42.45 | SpeedEvil | (if there are two) |
| 02:49.43 | aloril | so length of phone is not enough for it (?) |
| 02:49.53 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 02:49.57 | SpeedEvil | By a long way. |
| 02:50.17 | SpeedEvil | The resolution of the one in the Wii is some 1mG or so. |
| 02:50.42 | SpeedEvil | With two of those in - |
| 02:51.10 | SpeedEvil | you can more or less - when the phone is held up at chest level in front of you, tell moderately brisk roll action - around the vertical axis. |
| 02:51.15 | aloril | ok, so as he said, they are evaluating it .. looks like good reason to look for some other one |
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| 02:51.50 | SpeedEvil | The ST part that was mentioned has a noise 16-30 times worse, depending on how you do the sums |
| 02:52.09 | aloril | its *VERY* nice to have this uncompromising attitude about binary drivers in kernel -> very good for future of Linux 3D in mobile phones |
| 02:52.13 | SpeedEvil | I commented on the ML that a PIC + the AD part would actually be moderately cheaper. |
| 02:54.20 | aloril | at the moment there is only one proprietary part that needs proprietary code: GPS (as most of you know) |
| 02:54.45 | aloril | there are at least 3 proprietary firmware parts, but those are separate systems: GSM, Bluetooth, WiFi (for GTA02) |
| 02:55.51 | SpeedEvil | GPS |
| 02:55.53 | SpeedEvil | oh |
| 02:58.26 | happycube | at least those are nicely self-contained in flash |
| 03:00.57 | aloril | yup |
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| 03:01.21 | aloril | same thing holds for PC too ;-) |
| 03:01.55 | xl0 | Isn't it possible to re the gps module? Should not be that hard... |
| 03:02.22 | aloril | truly open firmware for radio stuff sounds unlikely anywhere until GNU software radio |
| 03:02.59 | aloril | for GPS module I thinks its likely it will be reverse engineered (or maybe GTA02 even has different GPS or maybe they get it to open, core team seems to be hinting about something) |
| 03:04.42 | happycube | someone on /. was worried that fic was burying the openmoko at computex... they only had a small display for it... otoh it's not really quiiiite ready yet ;) |
| 03:06.47 | happycube | oh - *costco* is selling 2gb microsd's now |
| 03:07.06 | happycube | for $37 - that pretty much means they're mainstream now ;) |
| 03:19.40 | SpeedEvil | 4 unobtanium tho |
| 03:28.10 | happycube | yeah :P |
| 03:28.17 | happycube | i grabbed one... they're sooo small |
| 03:28.27 | happycube | *a microsd... not a 4gb |
| 03:34.29 | aloril | funny that 8GB has been announced too when 4GB is not available either ;-) |
| 03:34.58 | pjz | 4GB isn't avail? |
| 03:36.17 | pjz | http://2400217787.monstercommercesites.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=217197 |
| 03:36.29 | pjz | $68ish |
| 03:37.18 | aloril | pjz: you can actually get that? |
| 03:38.58 | pjz | aloril: it says they're in stock. |
| 03:39.11 | pjz | aloril: I mean, I haven't tried or anything, and if I was worried I might call first |
| 03:39.30 | pjz | oh futz, that's SD not microSD |
| 03:39.40 | DukeOfURL | microSD at MicroCenter are $25. |
| 03:39.55 | DukeOfURL | 2GB |
| 03:40.12 | DukeOfURL | what microSD will be included with the phone? |
| 03:40.19 | DukeOfURL | with the Neo? |
| 03:40.30 | pjz | http://www.macup1.com/servlet/-strse-74/SanDisk-4GB-MicroSD-High/Detail |
| 03:40.41 | pjz | $130ish for 4GB microSD |
| 03:40.43 | pjz | says in-stock |
| 03:40.48 | pjz | froogle.com is a wonderful thing |
| 03:41.11 | pjz | just remember: storage tomorrow is always cheaper than storage today |
| 03:41.41 | DukeOfURL | I read a very discouraging article that said the larger SDs used data compression, that there wasn't more menory... |
| 03:41.44 | aloril | hmm.. maybe somebody with Neo1973 could get one and test? last I heard they were trying to acquire one |
| 03:41.47 | pjz | and if you'd bought a microSD card 6 months ago when the Neo was originally scheduled to ship, you'd be sad now. |
| 03:42.22 | aloril | DukeOfURL: common usage is to store jpg:s and you can't really compress those |
| 03:42.42 | DukeOfURL | Understand |
| 03:43.32 | aloril | DukeOfURL: so I suspect that article isn't very reliable, it would be very obvious soon if they did using compression (like backup takes have done) |
| 03:44.41 | DukeOfURL | but there doesn't seem to be any way to verify the internal workings... |
| 03:45.01 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=rd@vnsecurity.net) |
| 03:45.23 | SpeedEvil | You don't need to. |
| 03:45.41 | SpeedEvil | Nothing can compress random text |
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| 04:01.32 | pjz | ideally random text (well, random binary since ascii text really always has a 0 high-bit) has no redundancy to compress out |
| 04:03.15 | DukeOfURL | if its $130 retail then it's probably $70-80 wholesale. it's a significant add to the price of the phone. |
| 04:03.26 | Sup3rkiddo | anyone having problems with "make flash-qemu-local'? |
| 04:04.27 | pjz | DukeOfURL: sure, but if you wait 6 months it'll be a lot cheaper than that :) |
| 04:04.34 | DukeOfURL | maybe we'll be able to specify the size during the phone ordering process |
| 04:05.44 | pjz | nah, they'll probably ship with whatever's cheapish when they're doing the packaging |
| 04:05.59 | pjz | if users want to upgrade, that's up to them |
| 04:06.19 | pjz | cool to think you can get as much flash in a neo as you can in a nano though :) |
| 04:06.45 | DukeOfURL | make 1GB the standard size, with options for 2MB or 4MB |
| 04:08.35 | DukeOfURL | please keep in mind that my target market wouldn't know the difference between a SD card and a ham sandwich |
| 04:09.54 | pjz | indeed |
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| 04:21.44 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03roh * r2186 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/openmoko/env: make flash.sh of qemu working again after our kernel-image renaming (full version instead of 2.6-) |
| 04:28.44 | roh | Sup3rkiddo fixed. make update ; make flash-qemu-local |
| 04:29.12 | Sup3rkiddo | roh, thanks :) |
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| 04:41.56 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Bluetooth_Support]] [[Hardware:AGPS]] |
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| 06:24.11 | billl_ | counter |
| 06:24.11 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) P1: 6 days 05:35:48 (6.233±6.0 days) (1406;226) |
| 06:34.40 | Ycros | ugh, the counter is useless. |
| 06:36.27 | CM | Well, it's only based on the latest rumours since FIC won't say anything |
| 06:36.45 | aloril | and that is because they don't know it either ;-) |
| 06:37.15 | aloril | well.. I guess somebody might know more, but it all depends result of QA of already produced phones |
| 06:37.27 | aloril | which starts at 2007-06-09 |
| 06:42.56 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Phone_Number_Field]] |
| 06:43.13 | aloril | (or 2007-06-08) |
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| 07:18.15 | bluelightning | hmm... the wiki could do with some kind of spam/vandalism protection system |
| 07:19.58 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 07:20.23 | MacNorth | 'bad behavior' works with mediawiki |
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| 07:44.00 | buz | mhh this 3d printer thingy looks neat |
| 07:44.06 | buz | could make for sane hull for neo |
| 07:44.33 | hads | 3d printer thing? |
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| 07:45.48 | buz | rapidobject.de |
| 07:45.52 | buz | was posted on the ml |
| 07:46.37 | buz | nooow, if one could figure out how to attach a cam to GTA-02 ;) |
| 07:46.44 | buz | then a new shell would make even more sense |
| 07:48.11 | hads | Cool. Check out reprap for an open source project of the same thing. (I haven't read enough about rapidobject to know if it is yet). |
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| 07:56.33 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2187 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/pcf50633.patch: fix include file (gta02 rather than gta01) to make it compile when GTA02 support is enabled |
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| 08:15.29 | *** join/#openmoko TRIsoft (n=mac@p57A2DDEA.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 08:15.32 | TRIsoft | morning |
| 08:21.46 | hrw | hi Mac |
| 08:22.32 | LuitvD | counter |
| 08:22.32 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) P1: 6 days 03:37:27 (6.151±6.0 days) (1407;226) |
| 08:22.37 | TRIsoft | hrw: Hi Marcin |
| 08:24.01 | LuitvD | oh noes, ze germans are invading the netherlands again :P |
| 08:24.28 | TRIsoft | LuitvD: OMG ! Run ! :D |
| 08:24.39 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
| 08:25.44 | PBeck | hi |
| 08:26.16 | LuitvD | hi PBeck |
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| 08:26.46 | LuitvD | PBeck: do you know why people from your country are invading the netherlands today? something special ? |
| 08:27.06 | hrw | invasion anniversary? |
| 08:27.21 | TRIsoft | LuitvD: Bank holiday in most regions of Germany |
| 08:27.51 | LuitvD | ah, right |
| 08:27.52 | PBeck | lol LuitvD ;) |
| 08:28.03 | hrw | TRIsoft: germans also have 'bank' holidays? |
| 08:28.24 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 08:28.26 | TRIsoft | hrw: Yup |
| 08:28.35 | aloril | your own carrier would then probably want to select cheapest one so they can advertise that their roaming is cheapest |
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| 08:28.42 | PBeck | bank holiday means "Feiertag" |
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| 08:28.50 | hrw | TRIsoft: I first met with them when checking English holidays |
| 08:28.55 | PBeck | and today is a bank holiday ;) |
| 08:28.56 | aloril | there would be no advantage for you carrier to select more expensive one anymore |
| 08:29.09 | TRIsoft | PBeck: Lucky you. We have to work here :-( |
| 08:29.19 | PBeck | TRIsoft: fine :P |
| 08:29.36 | hrw | today is catolic holiday so thats why you have bank holiday probably.. |
| 08:29.45 | aloril | hmm... actually they still want to select cheapest one, but they want price to be high anyway |
| 08:30.50 | PBeck | hrw: you are right it is a catholic holiday ;) |
| 08:31.09 | aloril | or ever better: user gets to select what carrier is used for roaming (preference order) |
| 08:31.24 | hrw | PBeck: I live in Poland - country which wants to be more catolic then Vatican ;( |
| 08:31.46 | TRIsoft | hrw: Poland _is_ more catolic than Vatican :D |
| 08:31.50 | hrw | aloril: it is not so simple |
| 08:31.57 | PBeck | hrw: hehe |
| 08:32.28 | aloril | hrw: yeah, there is also "moving call from local tower" to "elsewhere" |
| 08:32.46 | hrw | aloril: operator1 is cheaper for calling back to your country. oper2 is cheaper for getting calls from your country. oper3 can be cheaper to call your yet-another-country friends during conference |
| 08:33.14 | hrw | when I was going to Berlin I asked my operator 'which one will be cheaper'.. |
| 08:34.06 | hrw | before fosdem I decided to not ask as they are unable to tell me which one is cheaper to call to British cell number in Belgium when both numbers are in Belgium |
| 08:34.21 | aloril | hmm.. virtual carriers: you select one and they make then various roaming, etc.. selections for you based on your location and receiving/calling/gprs/etc.. |
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| 08:35.16 | PBeck | counter |
| 08:35.16 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) P1: 6 days 03:24:43 (6.142±6.0 days) (1408;226) |
| 08:35.42 | aloril | you pay them and they take care of rest |
| 08:35.44 | PBeck | hum why 6 days? ;) |
| 08:36.01 | Herod2k | hi guys |
| 08:36.05 | aloril | testing starts at 2007-06-08 or 2007-06-09 |
| 08:36.19 | PBeck | i think that they ship the phone soon, too ;) |
| 08:36.32 | aloril | anyway, lower limit is soon zero anyway ;-) |
| 08:37.10 | aloril | testing could take a week + some extra days |
| 08:37.21 | PBeck | aloril: what is your information resource? |
| 08:37.36 | aloril | see counter page |
| 08:38.32 | PBeck | aloril: what means QA? |
| 08:38.43 | PBeck | quality analyse? |
| 08:38.50 | LuitvD | PBeck: Quality Assurance |
| 08:38.51 | TRIsoft | Quality ignorAnce |
| 08:38.59 | LuitvD | :) |
| 08:39.14 | PBeck | thanks LuitvD |
| 08:39.14 | LuitvD | Quality check AAAAAAAH |
| 08:39.19 | LuitvD | :) |
| 08:39.25 | aloril | <PROTECTED> |
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| 08:40.01 | PBeck | hum 6 months between P1 and P2 :/ |
| 08:40.19 | aloril | yeah, but less for GTA02 |
| 08:40.21 | PBeck | can i buy the hardware for P2 earlier? |
| 08:40.36 | PBeck | aloril: cool :D |
| 08:40.39 | aloril | see " Late Q3 for GTA02? 2007-06-06" |
| 08:41.08 | PBeck | September sounds great :) |
| 08:41.15 | PBeck | Late Q3 |
| 08:41.48 | SpeedEvil | Maybe Q5 |
| 08:41.51 | PBeck | i hope we can call than ;) |
| 08:41.56 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Main_Page]] [[Phone_Number_Field]] [[IPhone]] [[WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]] |
| 08:42.19 | PBeck | SpeedEvil: you mean Q1 2008 for P2? |
| 08:43.27 | LuitvD | I wonder which is first... 8g acceleration or broken device... |
| 08:44.39 | SpeedEvil | 8G is pretty much survivable for most humans. |
| 08:44.48 | SpeedEvil | but not much more than that. |
| 08:44.52 | *** join/#openmoko aesci7E (n=aesci99@221.221.134.148) |
| 08:44.53 | SpeedEvil | And only well supported |
| 08:45.02 | PBeck | what is 8G? |
| 08:45.04 | SpeedEvil | Imagine 8 people on top of you. |
| 08:45.11 | ewon | heh |
| 08:45.18 | SpeedEvil | 7 even |
| 08:45.24 | ewon | sustained 8G isn't survivable |
| 08:45.25 | PBeck | oh sorry -.- |
| 08:45.29 | SpeedEvil | Oh sigh. |
| 08:45.31 | PBeck | i have over read that :/ |
| 08:45.42 | SpeedEvil | C-mount lenses on the phone? |
| 08:46.03 | SpeedEvil | And moves it to hardware-wishlist:unlikely |
| 08:46.18 | LuitvD | moko wiki: "there are 300 pages that are probably legitimate content pages." |
| 08:46.26 | LuitvD | milestone :) |
| 08:46.43 | SpeedEvil | I suppose I shouldn't put 'are you high' on the revision. |
| 08:47.44 | LuitvD | :) |
| 08:48.04 | aloril | well there are less likely items in unlikely page ;-) |
| 08:48.22 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@5ac62f5f.bb.sky.com) |
| 08:48.33 | SpeedEvil | True |
| 08:48.39 | SpeedEvil | But this was on main page. |
| 08:48.45 | LuitvD | ewon: g as in acceleration isn't a capital g |
| 08:48.57 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: lolz |
| 08:49.00 | ewon | ah |
| 08:50.39 | hads | heh, C-mount |
| 08:51.51 | SpeedEvil | It's worse. |
| 08:51.55 | ewon | "yeah, we;ll get that on there, right after the nuclear-thermal battery" |
| 08:51.57 | SpeedEvil | He also suggested T-mount |
| 08:52.03 | SpeedEvil | 43mm ring diameter |
| 08:52.14 | SpeedEvil | with 17mm required behind it. |
| 08:52.19 | hads | Riiight |
| 08:52.48 | aloril | SpeedEvil: many of those were on main page earlier too, but yeah I see your point |
| 08:53.02 | ewon | we need a new captcha |
| 08:53.07 | ewon | "are you smoking crack?" |
| 08:53.39 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@5ac62f5f.bb.sky.com) |
| 08:54.35 | *** join/#openmoko pavelm (n=pavel@gprs189-60.eurotel.cz) |
| 08:54.42 | pavelm | Hello, everyone. |
| 09:00.10 | LuitvD | mornin' pavelm |
| 09:00.39 | hrw | hi pavelm |
| 09:00.41 | ewon | greets |
| 09:01.05 | LuitvD | lol, slashdot: " Forgetting May be Part of the Remembering Process" |
| 09:01.10 | LuitvD | NO SHIT :) |
| 09:01.17 | LuitvD | even I knew that... |
| 09:01.46 | aloril | thinking about writing page about known/rumored/guessed info: reliability indications: decided (like bluetooth), likely (like wifi in gta02), being evaluated (like accelerator in gta02), maybe (like EDGE in gta02), rumor (like *fast* cpu in some future device), guess (like keyboard in some future device), unknown (like camera in some future device) |
| 09:02.29 | SpeedEvil | Oh - need to pull wifi from wishlist |
| 09:02.40 | LuitvD | lol |
| 09:03.16 | LuitvD | aloril: how is a faster cpu a rumor? ... isn't that confirmed already? |
| 09:03.35 | aloril | LuitvD: I meant *FAST* |
| 09:03.42 | LuitvD | ah, lol, okay then |
| 09:03.51 | aloril | and not talking about GTA02 here |
| 09:03.52 | LuitvD | aloril: don't call the 2443 fast? |
| 09:03.53 | SpeedEvil | 4Ghz |
| 09:04.08 | LuitvD | 4? :| that's not much... |
| 09:04.10 | ewon | anyone know off the top of their heads if the moko can do push to talk? |
| 09:04.24 | aloril | ewon: should be able |
| 09:04.30 | LuitvD | what's push to talk then? |
| 09:04.55 | ewon | LuitvD: half-duplex voice coms over the data connection |
| 09:04.58 | mjr | ewon, the platform certainly supports a thing like that, somebody just needs to code it |
| 09:05.11 | CM | LuitvD: Walkie-talkie style calls that barely anyone uses |
| 09:05.13 | aloril | LuitvD: maybe not that fast, maybe something like 1Ghz |
| 09:05.37 | LuitvD | aloril: like those Via Eden processors? |
| 09:06.23 | LuitvD | sounds like something for a 'not really a phone' openmoko device |
| 09:06.44 | aloril | LuitvD: there is really new ARM core |
| 09:07.24 | pavelm | hi, hrw! |
| 09:07.41 | aloril | can people read "guess" or will they take all items with "guess/rumor" designation as sure things? |
| 09:08.07 | pavelm | There was talk about putting scripts for GPS into wiki... but I can't find it :-(. And even search for "gps" in wiki.openmoko reveals nothing, through alias exists... |
| 09:08.20 | Stephmw | mornin' |
| 09:10.41 | pavelm | hello, stephmw. |
| 09:11.11 | SpeedEvil | pavelm 'GPS' |
| 09:11.12 | SpeedEvil | IIRC |
| 09:11.23 | *** join/#openmoko pH5 (n=ph5@e178252180.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 09:12.05 | pavelm | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS is just a redirect to aGPS...? ...aha, not now, it is there. Good. |
| 09:13.10 | *** join/#openmoko herbyle (n=pascal@p54A3625F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 09:14.22 | SpeedEvil | CM: they are apparently popular in some markets |
| 09:15.04 | CM | SpeedEvil: I've heard construction ppl use it on some rugged phones, but I don't know anyone personally who use it. |
| 09:15.58 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@91.64.161.147) |
| 09:16.14 | ewon | nice, moko can act as a BT gps |
| 09:16.29 | ewon | I keep finding things I like about this unit :) |
| 09:17.11 | pavelm | CM: reload the page :-) |
| 09:17.24 | pavelm | CM: I know people using rugged phones. |
| 09:17.49 | pavelm | CM: rugged siemens is popular here, rugged nokia too (its flashlight feature saved my mmc card yesterday) |
| 09:18.16 | SpeedEvil | I wish there was a cheap way to ruggedise touchscreens. |
| 09:18.27 | CM | I know one guy who still use his old rugged Ericsson with the shark-fin antenna :) |
| 09:18.32 | SpeedEvil | And not with flips - that's a quarter of an answer. |
| 09:19.12 | LuitvD | which atheros chipset was it? in gta02? |
| 09:19.52 | pavelm | CM: Like... rugged phones tend to have bad keyboards, but that's it. |
| 09:20.13 | pavelm | CM: Unfortunately normal cellphones can stand lots of abuse, too, so it is quite hard to compare. |
| 09:20.20 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@mne69-9-88-163-116-163.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 09:20.27 | mjr | R6k IIRC |
| 09:20.30 | pavelm | CM: Actually, siemens me45 is _very_ popular here (it even had good keyboard), I was using it for some time. |
| 09:21.02 | CM | pavelm: Know anyone who use push to talk then? |
| 09:21.20 | ruskie | yeah the rugged phones are very nice(I have one) |
| 09:21.48 | ruskie | and mazingly it's keyboard isn't complete crap(imho) |
| 09:22.11 | mjr | I might use ptt but more in an sms than conversational fashion |
| 09:22.28 | pavelm | CM: No push to talk. And push to talk is orthogonal to "rugged". |
| 09:22.55 | ruskie | erm |
| 09:22.56 | CM | pavelm: It is? Why? |
| 09:22.57 | mjr | then, I don't generally converse on the phone anyway |
| 09:23.15 | ewon | speaking of sms |
| 09:23.18 | pavelm | cm: Why not. ptt is normal feature all modern cellphones have. |
| 09:23.32 | ewon | how fast can one can type an SMS on the touchscreen? |
| 09:23.47 | SpeedEvil | ewon: there is no SMS at the moment. |
| 09:23.49 | pavelm | cm: ...ptt normal feature everyone has and noone uses, because of stupid pricing. |
| 09:23.49 | hrw | ewon: depends on input method |
| 09:24.00 | CM | pavelm: Yes, but I think you missed a "not" in that other sentence |
| 09:24.14 | ewon | SpeedEvil: crikey |
| 09:24.25 | CM | Besides, I mostly wondered if anyone used push-to-taok and if it's any point to it |
| 09:24.27 | SpeedEvil | But yes, it depends on the input method. There are several proposed input methods. |
| 09:24.30 | ewon | hrw: usual numpad + two thumbs, I suppose |
| 09:24.45 | ruskie | around here it's not even available as a service yet(ptt) |
| 09:24.47 | mjr | price is where flat gprs comes in :) |
| 09:24.49 | CM | Doesn't it involve "groups" too, quick multi-part calls? |
| 09:24.50 | hrw | ewon: I use one thumb and T9 |
| 09:25.17 | pavelm | mjr: ptt is misdesigned so that flatrate gprs is _not_ enough to use it. |
| 09:25.19 | *** join/#openmoko vaiursch (n=erwin@84-72-190-106.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 09:25.37 | ewon | hrw: I use T9 as well, but with two thumbs. |
| 09:25.38 | pavelm | ...actually, I was doing "mail-based ptt" with se k700i... sending people emails with voice attachments. |
| 09:27.01 | pavelm | ...and openmoko display is just big enough for full keyboard. |
| 09:28.33 | SpeedEvil | But you need really small fingers. |
| 09:29.03 | mjr | pavelm, sad then that we'll have to make an incompatible one |
| 09:29.19 | pavelm | speedevil: for my fingers. but you certainly do not see what you are pressing |
| 09:29.22 | pH5 | SpeedEvil: or a nice way of error correction (show the character above the keyboard and let the user correct by moving the finger before releasing) |
| 09:29.46 | SpeedEvil | I like my extension of the 'splash' based idea on the ML |
| 09:30.00 | SpeedEvil | drag in any direction, and it starts a glyph |
| 09:30.12 | CM | I'd like to try the HexInput method |
| 09:30.14 | SpeedEvil | pause, and you get a splash of what the options are to continue the glyph |
| 09:30.40 | pH5 | SpeedEvil: yes, but the splash should be in some other place than the position of your finger |
| 09:30.42 | pavelm | mjr: Sorry about that.. but I take a python as a rapid prototyping tool... |
| 09:30.51 | SpeedEvil | pH5: to an extent, yes. |
| 09:31.30 | SpeedEvil | The ideal would be to enter whole words or phrases with single finger touches anywhere on the display |
| 09:31.41 | SpeedEvil | How well I can get it working, ... |
| 09:32.29 | mjr | pavelm, was still talking about ptt :) |
| 09:32.40 | pH5 | for that multitouch would be seriously cool (if you could control two such splash parts with your thumbs at the same time) |
| 09:33.14 | SpeedEvil | Hmm |
| 09:33.21 | SpeedEvil | Interesting. |
| 09:33.36 | SpeedEvil | For example, 8 diagonal strokes - two thumbs - 64 'keys' |
| 09:34.19 | pH5 | of course we serialize, but I think the right hand could already do some simple preselection via muscle memory while you're still deciding on a word choice for the left. |
| 09:34.39 | pavelm | mjr: aha... well, I'd say that more people can receive voice emails than ptt. Really. |
| 09:34.49 | pavelm | mjr: Voice attachments are quite well supportd. |
| 09:35.20 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@halls-129-31-82-59.hor.ic.ac.uk) |
| 09:36.19 | pH5 | indeed. qwerty on my ipaq's 4" screen works quite well, but the screen is full of fingerprints afterwards :) |
| 09:36.33 | rwhitby | s/beo/neo/ |
| 09:40.23 | SpeedEvil | I'm also wondering on the above glyph system on a analog joystick. |
| 09:40.42 | SpeedEvil | After I realised that analog sticks as PSP replacements are $6 |
| 09:43.36 | pavelm | ...actually... there should be ~50 neos from phase0 left, right? |
| 09:44.03 | pavelm | someone should "creatively destroy" them -- like drop 10 into bucket of water, drop a few from 1m50 to concrete, etc. |
| 09:44.03 | hrw | pavelm: ? |
| 09:44.18 | SpeedEvil | water tells you nothing |
| 09:44.25 | SpeedEvil | It's going to die in water |
| 09:44.27 | rwhitby | pavelm: I dropped my P1 phone from 1.5m onto a road |
| 09:44.30 | pavelm | ...then figure out what weakest components are, and if it is maybe possible to cheaply improve them. |
| 09:44.34 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: is it now? |
| 09:44.37 | hrw | pavelm: there was 50 developers in phase0. 14 of them does not wanted phase0 phone. |
| 09:44.50 | pavelm | rwhitby: Does it still work? |
| 09:44.52 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: my PDA survived getting dropped in a pool |
| 09:45.01 | SpeedEvil | LuitvD: cheap clone, yes |
| 09:45.03 | pavelm | hrw: ok, so 14 phones left :-) |
| 09:45.14 | pH5 | hrw: 13, actually. I only spoke up after the count. |
| 09:45.17 | SpeedEvil | 14 have gone mainly to internal devs AIUI |
| 09:45.19 | rwhitby | pavelm: yes. the case came apart near the aux switch, and there are some scratches on the ends, but it still works fine. |
| 09:45.37 | rwhitby | so there's one data point :-) |
| 09:45.51 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: as long as you remove the battery from the device, submerge it in clean water to flush dirty water, and let it dry in the air (not in the sun!) it's fine... |
| 09:46.45 | *** join/#openmoko wehttamb_ (n=wehttamb@CPE-124-176-90-115.nsw.bigpond.net.au) |
| 09:47.04 | SpeedEvil | LuitvD: yes |
| 09:47.10 | LuitvD | best way is to remove the battery and case, flush it with clean water, dry it a bit with paper towels, and let it dry for 3 days |
| 09:47.23 | SpeedEvil | LuitvD: but other than totally waterproofing, there is nothing really you can do to improve it. |
| 09:47.26 | SpeedEvil | Actually. |
| 09:47.31 | *** join/#openmoko SBKch (n=SBKch@81.224.unknown.vectranet.pl) |
| 09:47.36 | ewon | I've seen phones survive getting dropped into pints of beer |
| 09:47.55 | LuitvD | ewon: oh, even worse then that can happen... |
| 09:48.01 | LuitvD | beer isn't that bad yet... |
| 09:48.06 | SpeedEvil | Vest way is to dissasemble case, flush with warm soapy water, flush with clean water, flush with distilled water, place in anhydrous alcohol, dry |
| 09:48.06 | buz | mine did not survive jumping into the lake even |
| 09:48.09 | LuitvD | coffee is aweful |
| 09:48.46 | Placid | i dropped my Sony Ericsson in to a pint of water overnight. After about 4 months of not using it, it works. |
| 09:48.46 | ewon | christ, coffee |
| 09:48.46 | ewon | what a mess |
| 09:48.46 | Placid | It does shutdown occasionally without being asked to though |
| 09:48.46 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: true |
| 09:48.48 | SpeedEvil | However, simply placing in an oven or a hot place after the distilled water step is practically as good. |
| 09:48.56 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: especially that alcohol stuff.. that way it'll dry completely in half an hour |
| 09:49.08 | SpeedEvil | A _regulated_ oven set at no more than 70-80C |
| 09:49.26 | Placid | Does distilled water work? |
| 09:49.27 | LuitvD | not a microwave oven XD |
| 09:49.33 | ewon | heh |
| 09:49.35 | SpeedEvil | Distilled water work for what? |
| 09:49.45 | Placid | Fixing drenched phones. |
| 09:49.51 | LuitvD | Placid: distilled water is just to clean any dirt that could have existed off the phone |
| 09:50.01 | LuitvD | Placid: the more dirt, the more chance on rust |
| 09:50.01 | Placid | oh |
| 09:50.02 | Placid | heh |
| 09:50.14 | LuitvD | Placid: so that's why to use distilled water |
| 09:50.26 | SpeedEvil | The hot soapy water is to remove any organic contaminents - coke, ... |
| 09:50.30 | Placid | i heard that dropping it in distilled water after it's been drenched in a liquid can help. |
| 09:50.33 | Placid | ahh i see |
| 09:50.35 | Placid | so it's just to clean |
| 09:50.42 | Placid | if you dropped it in coffee or something |
| 09:50.45 | LuitvD | yes, it's to get the other fluid out |
| 09:50.51 | SpeedEvil | The then the flush with ordinary water is to rinse out most of the detergent |
| 09:50.53 | LuitvD | just flushing |
| 09:51.06 | SpeedEvil | and the distilled water is to flush out the remenants, and any minerals from the tapwater |
| 09:51.21 | SpeedEvil | It's probably overkill, but is good practice. |
| 09:51.35 | LuitvD | :) |
| 09:51.56 | SpeedEvil | You should have hung it up nearby using a firewire. |
| 09:51.58 | LuitvD | wasn't the best way to do it, my speaker stopped working a week after that... completely oxidized |
| 09:52.24 | LuitvD | though it works again,after I opened it up :) |
| 09:52.46 | LuitvD | didn't have a torx screw handy when it drowned, so I had to do something |
| 09:53.09 | LuitvD | 10cm from a wood fire for 10 minutes and it booted again :) |
| 09:56.14 | *** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85-124-36-125.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 09:56.48 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-181-015.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 10:04.18 | *** join/#openmoko k|to (n=kito@dslb-084-063-055-152.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 10:04.58 | k|to | counter? |
| 10:04.58 | aloril | "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) P1: 6 days 01:55:01 (6.080±6.0 days) (1409;227) |
| 10:05.45 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89 (n=ewanm89@host86-153-88-169.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 10:07.52 | Moo^^ | can openmoko act as a usb host device? |
| 10:07.57 | Moo^^ | i mean neo1973 |
| 10:08.44 | mjr | it is able to, though it won't provide power, so you'll have to feed that elsewhere if the device wants it (as it's entitled to) |
| 10:10.39 | mjr | just that it seems I'll have to dust off my soldering iron to get such a cable... |
| 10:10.40 | ewon | mjr: nice |
| 10:10.43 | ewon | mjr: url? |
| 10:12.54 | mjr | seems to be one of this kinds of things: http://cgi.ebay.com/Solar-Power-Panel-Portable-Charger-for-7370-N70-N80-N95_W0QQitemZ180127175176QQihZ008QQcategoryZ78859QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
| 10:13.57 | mjr | probably the solar part is more useful there than here, though right now I can get something out of the sun here too :] |
| 10:14.09 | mjr | key is that it'll also charge off USB and the wall if need be |
| 10:14.10 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning1 (n=blueligh@222-155-132-157.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 10:14.12 | *** join/#openmoko kmshanah (n=kmshanah@ppp235-99.static.internode.on.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 10:14.15 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning_ (n=blueligh@222-155-132-157.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 10:14.56 | mjr | so even in Finland it's useful as a spare current source year-round |
| 10:16.19 | *** join/#openmoko pavelm (n=pavel@gprs189-60.eurotel.cz) |
| 10:16.39 | ewon | nice... think I'll pick one up when I hit LA |
| 10:17.02 | pavelm | ....downloading 28mb jffs images can be dangerous for your net connection... |
| 10:17.12 | hrw | pavelm: really? |
| 10:17.27 | ewon | depends on the net connection :) |
| 10:19.36 | *** join/#openmoko cheesy (n=daniel@pd95b5e66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:19.43 | *** join/#openmoko abe (n=abe@adsl-ull-135-146.41-151.net24.it) |
| 10:19.44 | pavelm | hrw: edge tends to crash n6230. |
| 10:20.20 | ewon | hope you have a cheap data plan |
| 10:20.33 | ewon | I've found a lot of nokias don't do well under heavy data load |
| 10:20.46 | ewon | my 6230i loses the plot if I get an incoming call when it's acting as a BT modem |
| 10:20.57 | pavelm | hrw: non-edge and dns times out. |
| 10:21.05 | hrw | I had 6310i and decided that no more nokias |
| 10:21.14 | pavelm | ewon: actually the nokia is pretty stable... SEs were worse. |
| 10:21.58 | pavelm | ewon: unlimited data, yes. |
| 10:23.30 | *** join/#openmoko njpatel (n=njp@host81-129-132-253.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) |
| 10:23.47 | ewon | pavelm: unlimited data plan.. nice.. such a thing does not exist in Ireland :( |
| 10:24.03 | ewon | cheapest here is 20eur a month, cap of 10gigs |
| 10:24.14 | ewon | and that's only 3G |
| 10:24.22 | ewon | if you can find coverage :) |
| 10:24.34 | pavelm | ewon: we have pretty bad landline infrastructure. That leads to very good wireless infrastructure. |
| 10:25.04 | pavelm | ewon: $30 is unlimited gprs/edge/3G... not sure if they slow you down as a "fair use", but that is not happening for me. |
| 10:25.38 | pavelm | ok, I'll have to go. Bye bye! |
| 10:27.11 | mjr | 10 gig cap doesn't sound too bad though... |
| 10:27.27 | mjr | if you don't use it as your primary net connection :] |
| 10:28.53 | pavelm | mjr: That's the point. I use Edge as my primary net connection. And many people in czech republic use cdma in similar way. |
| 10:30.41 | hrw | pavelm: cdma? |
| 10:30.54 | hrw | pavelm: not csd or gprs rather? |
| 10:31.32 | mjr | I see |
| 10:32.24 | mjr | well, I'm not arguing that an unlimited plan vs. 10 gig plan is bad anyway :] |
| 10:33.24 | *** join/#openmoko thomasg__ (n=thomasg@p57AFC9AC.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:34.18 | ewon | the 10 gig / 20 eur only came in in the last month |
| 10:34.24 | ewon | before that it was .09c / k |
| 10:34.40 | ewon | I'm moving to the US in august anyway, so I don't think I'll bother |
| 10:35.50 | mjr | yeah |
| 10:36.21 | hrw | here in Poland each operator has some kind of limit.. 1-3GB and then you will get low speed. |
| 10:36.57 | hrw | my operator has option where I pay 20 pln (~5eur) for 50MB and then 0.06 pln/50KB |
| 10:37.20 | mjr | (still 10 euros here for 128k bw cap, otherwise unlimited; more for more bandwidth obviously, but it's available, and marketed partly also as a replacement for wired internet) |
| 10:38.03 | *** join/#openmoko ossman (n=drzeus@alcatraz.cendio.se) |
| 10:38.30 | hrw | or 30eur per flat rate with speedlimit after 4GB |
| 10:38.44 | hrw | hi Pierre |
| 10:38.54 | ossman | g'day |
| 10:40.59 | *** join/#openmoko danilos (n=danilo@adsl-236-193.eunet.yu) |
| 10:41.51 | hrw | ossman: is there any support for MMC over SPI in 2.6? |
| 10:42.07 | ossman | nope |
| 10:42.21 | ossman | it's in the works though |
| 10:42.56 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Translation]] [[Wishlist:Unlikely]] [[Sample_Native-Finger_Application]] [[User:Flerchjj]] [[User_talk:Flerchjj]] [[User_talk:Speedevil]] [[GPS]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Liver_transplant]] [[Current_events]] |
| 10:43.58 | ossman | liver transplant?! |
| 10:44.23 | hrw | hardcore usage |
| 10:44.36 | *** join/#openmoko cheesy (n=daniel@pd95b5e66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:44.41 | hrw | someone watched too much Monty Python's Sense of Life ;) |
| 10:48.26 | hrw | ossman: any place where it can be fetched? we have one pda with mmc over spi and use older patch to handle it |
| 10:49.27 | ossman | check spi-devel list archives this tuesday |
| 10:49.27 | hrw | ok |
| 10:50.30 | hrw | I will point our kernel hacker to it. THX |
| 10:53.00 | ossman | hrw, np |
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| 11:19.00 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03njp * r2188 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/gtkbutton: Adjust border property for smaller sized gtkbutton_p.png pixmap; Stop pixmap engine segfaulting on the neo |
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| 11:39.34 | mickeyl | njpatel: care to explain that in more detail, please? |
| 11:40.18 | njpatel | mickeyl: sorry? |
| 11:40.18 | aloril | njpatel: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 11:41.24 | mickeyl | njpatel: i'd like to know why adjusting the border property stops the pixmap engine from segfaulting |
| 11:41.29 | mickeyl | just for the records, you know |
| 11:41.39 | SpeedEvil | ossman: liver transplant was a page about liver transplants. I wiped it. |
| 11:42.58 | njpatel | mickeyl: Oh, sorry :). Well, between Thomas and I, what we found out is that because gtkbutton_p.png (the prelight button), is oonly 43px, rather than 44px of gtkbutton.ng |
| 11:43.02 | njpatel | .. |
| 11:44.59 | *** join/#openmoko barmeier (n=barmeier@p57bb2dfd.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 11:44.59 | barmeier | hi |
| 11:44.59 | njpatel | ...you cannot use the same border decleration, you need to take 1px off the bottom 'padding' ie { 22, 33, 18, 25} becomes { 22, 33, 18, 24 }, other wise when the pixmap engine slices up the pixmap (to figure out where it needs to stretch from), there is no pixbuf left to stretch |
| 11:44.59 | mickeyl | njpatel: ooh, that's all? heh |
| 11:45.03 | mickeyl | njpatel: ok, cool. thanks |
| 11:45.14 | njpatel | mickeyl: np :) |
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| 11:55.10 | PBeck | hey mickeyl. Cool Presentation on the LinuxTag. I heard the mp3 and look at your presentation ;) |
| 11:57.48 | PBeck | presentation-slides ;) |
| 11:57.50 | mickeyl | thanks PBeck :) |
| 11:58.07 | mickeyl | almost like a video then :) |
| 11:58.08 | PBeck | mickeyl: GTA_02 is great :) |
| 11:58.15 | PBeck | yes right ;) |
| 11:58.37 | mickeyl | yeah. looking forward to get this thing done. this is competitive hardware after all |
| 11:58.38 | hrw | mickeyl's powerpoint skills are high |
| 11:58.43 | mickeyl | haha |
| 11:58.48 | mickeyl | ~lart hrw for disclosing my presentation program |
| 11:58.48 | apt | whacks hrw with the cluebat for disclosing my presentation program |
| 11:59.01 | hrw | ;D |
| 11:59.04 | mickeyl | :D |
| 11:59.13 | PBeck | mickeyl: which programm you use for your presentation? |
| 11:59.32 | CM | Hehe |
| 11:59.33 | mickeyl | i'm afraid it's evil windows software |
| 11:59.37 | PBeck | *which programm use you to create your presentation ;) |
| 11:59.56 | mickeyl | you know i have worked on a presentation program since long |
| 12:00.01 | mickeyl | but then OpenMoko came |
| 12:00.15 | PBeck | i create my presentation with latex-beamer :> |
| 12:00.25 | PBeck | mickeyl: which? |
| 12:00.32 | hrw | I use openoffice.org writer or impress |
| 12:00.40 | mickeyl | ya, used latex-beamer for some presentations as well. it's cool, but some things take very long |
| 12:00.48 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info) |
| 12:00.54 | mickeyl | PBeck: never published. a showcase for my efl++ wrapper |
| 12:01.08 | PBeck | mickeyl: yes thats rights. Only Text presentation are very easy |
| 12:01.14 | PBeck | ah o |
| 12:01.15 | PBeck | k |
| 12:01.35 | mickeyl | the end goal is to have the Neo present the slides |
| 12:01.43 | mickeyl | using a USB->VGA adapter |
| 12:01.49 | mickeyl | w/ gta02 this might work |
| 12:01.56 | hrw | mickeyl: gta02 is OTG? |
| 12:02.07 | *** join/#openmoko cheesy (n=daniel@pd95b5e66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 12:02.09 | mickeyl | hrw: i hope so. |
| 12:02.13 | CM | mickeyl: And Powerpoint on wine? ;) |
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| 12:02.24 | PBeck | mickeyl: is the decision to edge already fallen? |
| 12:02.28 | hrw | CM: powerpoint on qemu running vista |
| 12:02.35 | PBeck | hum is this sentence right? :> |
| 12:02.55 | PBeck | hrw: what is OTG? |
| 12:02.56 | mickeyl | PBeck: tbh, i don't know. |
| 12:03.05 | PBeck | tbh? |
| 12:03.12 | CM | To be honest |
| 12:03.16 | Vegar | tbh = to be honest |
| 12:03.16 | Vegar | otg = on the go |
| 12:03.51 | PBeck | and what means than gta02 on the go? |
| 12:03.58 | PBeck | you mean the mass market phone? |
| 12:04.21 | Vegar | (USB OTG is a way for USB devices to communicate with eachother without a host, IIRC) |
| 12:04.30 | PBeck | mickeyl: the neo should present the slides with your programm? |
| 12:04.37 | mickeyl | PBeck: yes |
| 12:04.43 | hrw | OTG devices are host/device switchable |
| 12:04.45 | PBeck | -m |
| 12:04.46 | mickeyl | PBeck: rendering the slides in runtime |
| 12:05.02 | PBeck | hrw and Vegar ah ok thanks |
| 12:05.15 | PBeck | mickeyl: which formats knows your program? |
| 12:05.43 | mickeyl | PBeck: last time i checked some simple xml formatted description |
| 12:05.55 | PBeck | *file format |
| 12:06.06 | mickeyl | it's been a long time since i last worked on that sigh |
| 12:06.20 | PBeck | ah ok |
| 12:06.21 | mickeyl | i even don't know where i have the latest efl++ code |
| 12:06.29 | mickeyl | probably on ltg |
| 12:06.44 | PBeck | which pdf-reader will be used? |
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| 12:08.25 | PBeck | mickeyl: a good pdf-reader is very important i think :) |
| 12:09.05 | mickeyl | there's some that should only require minor adaption. evince, epdf2 |
| 12:09.54 | PBeck | evince would be very cool :) |
| 12:10.24 | mickeyl | epdf2 is somewhat lighter |
| 12:10.31 | mickeyl | anything poppler based |
| 12:10.38 | PBeck | is evince easy to port? What changes musst be do? i am not a programer till now ;) |
| 12:10.48 | PBeck | evince is poppler based too |
| 12:10.50 | hrw | PBeck: s/port/compile? |
| 12:11.00 | mickeyl | evince and epdf2 would more or less "just" some UI adaptations |
| 12:11.05 | mickeyl | +need |
| 12:11.09 | hrw | "bitbake evince" in normal situation apply |
| 12:11.17 | hrw | but for neo we need other UI |
| 12:11.59 | PBeck | hrw: hm evince runs with a new compile for the processor of the neo? Without changes? |
| 12:12.14 | PBeck | ah ok :/ |
| 12:13.28 | PBeck | hm i learn at time python ;) Perhaps i can later help and learn c :P |
| 12:13.50 | balrog-kun | PBeck: it should run without changes, it's the UI look |
| 12:14.02 | PBeck | balrog-kun: ah ok :) |
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| 12:14.15 | PBeck | mickeyl: we need #openmoko-de with my bad english ;) |
| 12:15.01 | ynezz | there are python bindings for OM UI? |
| 12:15.03 | PBeck | please correct me ;) |
| 12:15.17 | balrog-kun | njpatel: thanks - that gtkbutton change fixed openmoko-dialer too |
| 12:15.20 | PBeck | when i have mistakes in my sentences ;) |
| 12:15.43 | njpatel | balrog-kun: np :) |
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| 12:15.48 | mickeyl | PBeck: hehe. yeah, sooner or later we might want to have a localized channel. doesn't make much sense before the devices are out though |
| 12:15.56 | balrog-kun | njpatel: do you close the bug? |
| 12:16.03 | balrog-kun | err, s/you/i/ |
| 12:16.10 | balrog-kun | evil xchat |
| 12:16.25 | njpatel | balrog-kun: I was waiting for the person who opened it to confirm... |
| 12:16.38 | mickeyl | (low-level, that is) |
| 12:16.52 | PBeck | mickeyl: hrhr ;) yes you are right ;) I only hope that all understand my english ;) |
| 12:16.55 | balrog-kun | njpatel: oh i opened it |
| 12:17.09 | njpatel | balrog-kun: oh, lol, okay then I'll close it :) |
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| 12:20.44 | aloril | counter_msg http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) |
| 12:20.44 | aloril | aloril changed counter prefix message to http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) |
| 12:21.27 | *** join/#openmoko SpeedEvil (n=jfjfjf@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) |
| 12:22.55 | Kensan | Something should be done about the spamming problem on the wiki. |
| 12:23.18 | SpeedEvil | my 'revert vandalism' finger is getting tired. |
| 12:23.46 | DukeOfURL | do we know who is spamming? |
| 12:23.52 | DukeOfURL | or is it automated? |
| 12:24.15 | SpeedEvil | It seems to follow two patterns |
| 12:24.22 | SpeedEvil | one - user registers and puts on porn spams |
| 12:24.28 | SpeedEvil | and another that seems more automated |
| 12:24.44 | SpeedEvil | which may do trivial changes to pages, that are benign. |
| 12:24.46 | Kensan | SpeedEvil, the random deletion of content is much worse I think. |
| 12:24.57 | SpeedEvil | Then a few days later, randomly delete content on a page. |
| 12:25.11 | aloril | potential long term solution (for most wikis): introduce branching (git?): if somebody new edits, branch and somebody who has accepted edits must accept it (for example) |
| 12:25.45 | SpeedEvil | That gets nasty. |
| 12:25.58 | SpeedEvil | Multiple heads is insane. |
| 12:26.18 | SpeedEvil | One displayed branch, which has been moderated at a point. |
| 12:26.25 | DukeOfURL | how does voip-info.org handle it? |
| 12:26.31 | CM | http://recaptcha.net/ ? |
| 12:27.24 | aloril | SpeedEvil: there would still be 'main head' and you can see other branches too (basically for this problem would be latest edit by new user) |
| 12:27.44 | PBeck | counter |
| 12:27.44 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: 5 days 23:46:08 (5.990±6.0 days) (1410;227) |
| 12:27.45 | SpeedEvil | Then any one hitting 'edit' gets the current edit |
| 12:27.52 | aloril | well.. I guess just make "edit pending moderation" if by new user |
| 12:28.04 | Kensan | I bet somebody from the community knows a solution. Maybe this is a question for the mailing list. |
| 12:28.11 | aloril | SpeedEvil: nope, they get branch unless they already have accepted edits |
| 12:28.16 | SpeedEvil | If an authorised user saves the page at the unmoderated head, it moves the moderated head to that point |
| 12:28.58 | aloril | ah, yeah, well this is long term solution, not a quick I think |
| 12:29.24 | aloril | should address this credit too: if you just accept edit, then you get credited only for that, not for actual edit |
| 12:29.56 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 12:30.27 | SpeedEvil | You'd need some sort of highlighted diffs before the edit box. |
| 12:30.48 | *** join/#openmoko slider (n=sebastia@d119004.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 12:31.20 | PBeck | http://openmoko.org/ <= btw why openmokowiki, openmokobugzilla, openmokoprojects, openmokolists and than planetopenmoko? |
| 12:31.31 | PBeck | why change the prefix? |
| 12:35.19 | *** part/#openmoko k|to_ (n=kito@dslb-084-063-013-042.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 12:35.36 | aloril | PBeck: because I moved "at or before 2007-06-06" 5% part into current counter |
| 12:37.37 | aloril | SpeedEvil: basic idea is that pages would have maintainers that would comb trough changes and merge them |
| 12:38.35 | aloril | there could be even several versions of page, different maintainers having different viewpoint |
| 12:38.59 | SpeedEvil | My basic view is that way lies madness. |
| 12:39.05 | aloril | "distribution builder" then would select suitable maintainers and thus become 'meta' maintainer |
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| 12:39.42 | SpeedEvil | Multiple people editing on different versions, and having to merge back edits. |
| 12:39.53 | aloril | SpeedEvil: works for Linux, Fedora, etc.. ;-) |
| 12:40.16 | SpeedEvil | There are no people merging porn popups into the linux kernel. |
| 12:40.35 | ewon | now that's my kinda kernel |
| 12:41.02 | aloril | SpeedEvil: similarly it would be pointless to spam: it will never by accepted |
| 12:41.38 | aloril | of course you can submit patch for porn popups for kernel, but that would never pass ;-) |
| 12:41.54 | hrw | SpeedEvil: because today you add porn viewer to initrd to enjoy show during booting |
| 12:41.56 | SpeedEvil | If it's got enough penguins, it just might! |
| 12:41.56 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:CydC4h]] [[Bluetooth_Connection_Status]] [[Sketchbook]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[User_talk:Flerchjj]] [[User_talk:Speedevil]] |
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| 12:46.23 | aloril | in addition of main maintainer there could be spelling maintainers that whose edits would be accepted on wider range of pages etc.. |
| 12:49.45 | *** join/#openmoko slider (n=sebastia@d119004.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 12:50.59 | PBeck | aloril: i mean planetopenmoko ;) |
| 12:53.39 | hrw | SpeedEvil: get dual cpu machine and you will get two pengiuns |
| 12:55.33 | *** part/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) |
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| 12:58.02 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@91.64.161.147) |
| 12:58.13 | zecke | Hey is anyone familiar with GdkWindow and GtkLayout? |
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| 13:42.56 | aloril | (script) planet: Stefan Schmidt: OpenMoko LUG BS talk appointment shift http://www.datenfreihafen.org/~stefan/weblog/archives/2007/05/#e2007-05-15T20_20_29.txt Stefan Schmidt: OpenMoko talk at next LUG Braunschweig meeting http://www.datenfreihafen.org/~stefan/weblog/archives/2007/05/#e2007-05-09T16_11_28.txt Stefan Schmidt: Fiddling with registers through JTAG made easier. http://www.datenfreihafen.org/~stefan/weblog/archives/2007/03/#e2007-03-23T02_58_ |
| 13:45.16 | *** join/#openmoko slider (n=sebastia@d119004.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 13:53.33 | kiney_ | counter |
| 13:53.33 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: 5 days 23:03:13 (5.961±6.0 days) (1411;227) |
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| 13:57.09 | DukeOfURL | does gtk operate on teh frame buffer, or does it need X server? |
| 13:57.16 | DukeOfURL | s/teh/the/ |
| 13:57.25 | balrog-kun | DukeOfURL: it can do both |
| 13:57.38 | DukeOfURL | what about PyGtk? |
| 13:57.57 | balrog-kun | but traditionally it uses the Xserver, and all distros run gtk on top of X + window manager |
| 13:57.59 | DukeOfURL | same? |
| 13:58.11 | balrog-kun | i don't know about PyGtk but i guess it's only a gtk client |
| 14:02.35 | *** join/#openmoko bhima (n=gopi@64.213.69.19) |
| 14:02.36 | DukeOfURL | so one could run full-screen finger apps. without X? this would save CPU cycles. |
| 14:02.44 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@132.213.238.4) |
| 14:02.47 | SpeedEvil | I dunno. |
| 14:02.54 | SpeedEvil | X isn't heavyweight. |
| 14:03.01 | DukeOfURL | or, once you start X, all apps must be X? |
| 14:03.32 | zecke | DukeOfURL: well, you could switch virtual terminals or suspend X with other means but why would you want to do it? |
| 14:03.44 | DukeOfURL | battery life |
| 14:03.47 | pjz | fast user switching |
| 14:03.51 | pjz | wait, I meant battery life :) |
| 14:04.02 | SpeedEvil | I've used X on _much_ smaller hardware than the neo. |
| 14:04.13 | balrog-kun | me too |
| 14:04.14 | DukeOfURL | running top, X is consuming 20% CPU |
| 14:04.28 | SpeedEvil | That's a seperate issue. |
| 14:04.30 | Stephmw | SpeedEvil: what's the minimum rom/ram footprint you can get it to? |
| 14:04.42 | balrog-kun | DukeOfURL: well, you could run programs without X, btu that would take away flexibility |
| 14:05.00 | balrog-kun | anyway, with pygtk the heaviest part is no doubt the python vm |
| 14:05.12 | SpeedEvil | Stephmw: Coincidentally, I forgot to enable swap on my 128M laptop. |
| 14:05.23 | SpeedEvil | It ran for most of a day before slowing down. |
| 14:05.34 | *** join/#openmoko mindCrime (n=chatzill@66.83.208.219.nw.nuvox.net) |
| 14:05.36 | SpeedEvil | With X + FF with 20ish tabs, and assorted Xterms |
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| 14:06.11 | Kensan | What about http://www.directfb.org/wiki/index.php/Projects:GTK_on_DirectFB ? |
| 14:06.37 | SpeedEvil | Currently X on my laptop has a RSS of 19M |
| 14:06.39 | Stephmw | SpeedEvil: I was thinking more of the 'much' smaller hw... had a look at the moko ROM and it seems that an FB-enabled XServer takes 5-7mb of ROM and the same of RAM |
| 14:06.44 | balrog-kun | this is why i said gtk can do both X and no X |
| 14:07.28 | SpeedEvil | Well - my Xorg binary is 1.8M |
| 14:07.32 | balrog-kun | SpeedEvil: i have seen GPE on a 16 MB machine and i'm sure it could run on smaller ones too |
| 14:07.45 | SpeedEvil | GPE? |
| 14:07.52 | balrog-kun | the GNOME embedded |
| 14:07.57 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 14:08.08 | balrog-kun | it uses X.org |
| 14:09.15 | SpeedEvil | All the files I've used in the last 10 days in my X tree are 66M |
| 14:09.31 | SpeedEvil | I have in the past gotten kernel + shell + X on one 1.44M floppy |
| 14:09.40 | SpeedEvil | (this was some time ago) |
| 14:10.06 | SpeedEvil | And it was formatted to somewhat higher than 1.4M |
| 14:10.58 | Stephmw | I did have a google, but KDrive got absorbed into XOrg, and there seems to be little size related info on the web |
| 14:11.02 | balrog-kun | there's an X server called nano-X that's < 1 MB |
| 14:11.30 | balrog-kun | (statically linked with uclibc) |
| 14:11.37 | Kensan | I think it's no use arguing about X vs Framebuffer etc. without having done thorough benchmarks. |
| 14:11.57 | balrog-kun | prboom runs pretty well on nano-X |
| 14:12.51 | mjr | hardware would be nice, to eg. run benchmarks on ;) |
| 14:12.59 | mjr | Kensan, and yeah, true. I was just feeling like throwing an uneducated comment out there since mickey solicitated them |
| 14:13.16 | mjr | well, perhaps not solicitated _uneducated_ ones spesifically |
| 14:13.33 | bhima | Ooh. Two accelerometers. |
| 14:13.44 | SpeedEvil | bhima: it's not that good. |
| 14:14.00 | bhima | SpeedEvil: What do you mean? |
| 14:14.02 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals |
| 14:14.06 | SpeedEvil | Briefly. |
| 14:14.07 | cheesy | SpeedEvil: how good is it? |
| 14:14.20 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r_ (n=rac0r@p54AA563F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:14.23 | SpeedEvil | Currently available best-of-breed acceleromenters suck |
| 14:14.48 | bhima | SpeedEvil: Depends on what you want to do with them, now, doesn't it? |
| 14:14.48 | mjr | if it can control the lightsaber sound, it's good enough |
| 14:15.09 | Kensan | Pitching ideas etc is great. Once the test and traces are done the best ideas can be implemented. |
| 14:15.13 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@132.213.238.4) |
| 14:15.19 | SpeedEvil | The only thing two accelerometers buy you when standing with the phone in front of you held at chest height is some information about roll about the gravity axis. |
| 14:15.25 | Kensan | s/Once/As soon as/ |
| 14:15.26 | cheesy | yes! lightsaber is a must |
| 14:15.26 | SpeedEvil | And it's not good information. |
| 14:15.37 | bhima | So it's two 3 axis ones? |
| 14:15.50 | SpeedEvil | As the signal wanders around by 10 degrees/second or more. |
| 14:15.51 | bhima | Or two 2 axis ones? |
| 14:16.03 | *** join/#openmoko WHISDALO (n=sssz@87.226.15.94) |
| 14:16.12 | SpeedEvil | I get the feeling from a comment harald made on the ML that it's not at all fixed. |
| 14:16.33 | SpeedEvil | The model of accelerometer he mentioned for example would get almost no benefit from having 2 of them. |
| 14:16.42 | SpeedEvil | It's got so low a resolution. |
| 14:16.47 | cheesy | they should make it wiimote like :) |
| 14:17.00 | SpeedEvil | The wiimote acceleromter is another option. |
| 14:17.09 | Kensan | Wiimote has bluetooth ;) |
| 14:17.12 | SpeedEvil | though the wiimote gains from the camera + sensor bar. |
| 14:17.45 | cheesy | i have two wiimotes but only one wii ;) |
| 14:17.52 | SpeedEvil | How to tell a hardware geek. |
| 14:17.56 | SpeedEvil | Wiimote and no Wii. |
| 14:18.02 | mjr | =) |
| 14:18.39 | bhima | I was lazy, and didn't feel like trying to hook up one of my PWM accelerometers into a nice case with an interface of some kind. |
| 14:19.08 | bhima | MEMSIC accelerometers work in a really cute way. |
| 14:19.28 | bhima | They have a small, sealed bubble of air, and a heater in the middle. |
| 14:19.49 | bhima | They measure asymmetry in the thermal profile. |
| 14:20.02 | bhima | Hot air is less dense. |
| 14:20.41 | bhima | It probably isn't a surprise to learn they don't do more than 2 axes in one chip. |
| 14:20.45 | cheesy | but that reminds me of the main subject! i want this neo thing..NOW! |
| 14:23.17 | sannes | there is no neo .. or was it spoon? :P |
| 14:23.47 | cheesy | sannes: maybe both |
| 14:24.59 | Kensan | It would actually be interesting to see if somebody with the technical expertise and the apropriate access to tools and hardware could build the Neo1973 with the publicly available info. |
| 14:25.44 | Stephmw | Kensan: don't forget the cash |
| 14:26.28 | Kensan | I would sponsor such a project since it would prove the openess of the project. |
| 14:27.17 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@132.213.238.4) |
| 14:28.45 | hrw|gone | Kensan: without gps and gsm chips? doable with proper amount of money |
| 14:29.37 | hrw|gone | bye |
| 14:31.04 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) |
| 14:35.52 | CM | Nice work Finland: http://transport.wspgroup.fi/hklkartta/ |
| 14:36.21 | Tronic | Ah, they made that public :) |
| 14:36.26 | Tronic | It's really sweet :) |
| 14:36.28 | CM | I'd like something like that for my Neo. If I'm on a long trip or vacation or so, to have the gps update some homepage |
| 14:36.38 | Tronic | You can get the data in CSV format. |
| 14:36.56 | CM | Wish we had it here too, the buses here are never on time anyway and sometimes don't even show up at all |
| 14:37.04 | Tronic | (if you look at the source code for the URL used by the AJAX thing that displays the map) |
| 14:37.29 | SpeedEvil | It's a pretty trivial script though. |
| 14:37.46 | SpeedEvil | Push out a packet to a server every few hours |
| 14:37.49 | *** join/#openmoko helb (n=helb@84.244.90.159) |
| 14:37.52 | SpeedEvil | or less, depending on price |
| 14:37.53 | CM | Sure, but as long as it works I don't care |
| 14:40.02 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@bas3-montreal19-1242531977.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 14:41.12 | SpeedEvil | Sigh - the main page is such a mess. |
| 14:41.28 | CM | SpeedEvil: I totally agree |
| 14:41.53 | CM | I assume you talk about the wiki |
| 14:41.55 | SpeedEvil | I keep trying to get up the energy to rewrite it from first principles. |
| 14:41.58 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 14:42.05 | CM | Shouldn't be so many links lined up right away |
| 14:42.17 | CM | And I wonder why search never works in wikis.. |
| 14:42.23 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2189 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (8 files): remove old unused patches |
| 14:42.32 | SpeedEvil | CM: are you perhaps typing, then pressing enter? |
| 14:42.36 | SpeedEvil | that hits 'go' |
| 14:42.43 | SpeedEvil | you may want 'search' |
| 14:42.51 | CM | Ah, possible |
| 14:43.59 | CM | SpeedEvil: That's definitely better.. What's Go? |
| 14:44.12 | SpeedEvil | It's a game, popular in japan. |
| 14:44.15 | SpeedEvil | More seriously. |
| 14:44.24 | SpeedEvil | It's 'open a page of this name' |
| 14:44.54 | CM | Ok. Hmm.. I think Search should be the default |
| 14:44.57 | Kensan | SpeedEvil, in my eyes the default should be search. |
| 14:45.05 | SpeedEvil | I don't disagree. |
| 14:45.21 | *** join/#openmoko webjames (n=james@77-100-112-178.cable.ubr01.nail.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 14:45.23 | SpeedEvil | That part of the wiki is not editable. |
| 14:45.28 | CM | It's like if google would have "I'm lucky" as default |
| 14:45.51 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
| 14:46.02 | PBeck | re |
| 14:46.52 | *** join/#openmoko Vitaly (n=vlrubtso@unaffiliated/vitaly) |
| 14:49.14 | Vitaly | counter |
| 14:49.14 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: 5 days 22:35:22 (5.941±5.9 days) (1412;227) |
| 14:50.46 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-109.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 14:52.26 | *** join/#openmoko dietricha (n=dietrich@c-67-166-84-16.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 14:55.13 | *** join/#openmoko dhbarr (i=dhbarr@sverige.freeshell.ORG) |
| 14:55.28 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2190 10/trunk/oe/packages/libatomic-ops/ (. libatomic-ops_1.2.bb): oe: add libatomic-ops, a library for atomic integer operations |
| 14:56.41 | Stephmw | Kensan: interesting board this one, http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2010384636.html |
| 15:02.01 | Kensan | Stephmw: Miniaturization will go a long way... |
| 15:02.25 | zecke | mickeyl: why do you need that? Isn't glib working? |
| 15:02.26 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
| 15:06.42 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
| 15:06.53 | mickeyl | zecke: watch next commit... |
| 15:08.14 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@132.213.238.4) |
| 15:08.53 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2191 10/trunk/oe/packages/pulseaudio/ (5 files in 2 dirs): oe: add pulseaudio 0.9.6 (needs libatomic-ops) |
| 15:08.55 | mickeyl | here we are |
| 15:09.00 | mickeyl | bbiab |
| 15:09.12 | zecke | mickeyl: mentor! tell me how to unfuck GdkWindow :) |
| 15:12.32 | pH5 | mickey|bbiab: going to build a surround sound system out of neos? |
| 15:12.49 | SpeedEvil | No need to use more than one. |
| 15:13.33 | balrog-kun | with two of them you could make a VR helmet |
| 15:14.18 | balrog-kun | the screen size is perfect for a single display in a VR helmet with two displays |
| 15:14.52 | Stephmw | shame about the look |
| 15:15.06 | SpeedEvil | Meh. |
| 15:15.33 | SpeedEvil | 'I am [[OpenMoko]] of Borg. Resistance is futile!' |
| 15:16.32 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck_ (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
| 15:16.44 | SpeedEvil | I think I've done 4 - it was slow. |
| 15:16.59 | SpeedEvil | 486sx25 laptop with 4M ram. |
| 15:17.25 | balrog-kun | i'm not sure if current X.org would still do that |
| 15:17.29 | SpeedEvil | 16M ram, and it worked fine, with lots of netscape 3 windows open. |
| 15:17.41 | balrog-kun | software was less bloated at that time |
| 15:17.53 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 15:18.54 | SpeedEvil | I was surprised to fairly easily rip out - maybe in 2002 - half the size of the binary of lynx almost trivially. |
| 15:19.02 | SpeedEvil | Printing adds a lot, for example. |
| 15:19.14 | balrog-kun | the whole X (XFree86) was a single binary at this time, quite ugly but good for overall size |
| 15:19.28 | balrog-kun | modular is good but not exactly size efficient |
| 15:21.02 | *** join/#openmoko woglinde (i=woglinde@e178108034.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 15:21.19 | thresh | 32M of ram + xorg7.2 was pretty good. |
| 15:21.29 | thresh | with some lightweight *box |
| 15:21.49 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@5ac62f5f.bb.sky.com) |
| 15:22.03 | aloril2 | actually I think I ran text mode only on 8MB machine |
| 15:22.13 | *** join/#openmoko ossman (n=drzeus@85.8.24.16.se.wasadata.net) |
| 15:23.50 | aloril2 | didn't like to run both netscape and xemacs and xterm on 12MB machine ;-) |
| 15:26.03 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
| 15:27.48 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
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| 15:30.44 | *** join/#openmoko baze (n=baze@p5481f74b.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:32.34 | thresh | anyone uses "building openmoko from scratch" ? |
| 15:33.26 | thresh | oh yeah, sorry, it works D: |
| 15:37.11 | *** join/#openmoko ozamosi` (n=ozamosi@85.8.1.10.se.wasadata.net) |
| 15:37.16 | thresh | i wonder why it installs m4 when i have it. |
| 15:37.23 | thresh | as well as autoconf and stuff |
| 15:41.30 | thresh | i suppose it wouldnt install all that =/ |
| 15:42.42 | thresh | ah. i c now. |
| 15:53.45 | thresh | | /home/thresh/openmoko/tmp/work/armv4t-linux/binutils-cross-2.17.50.0.5-r1/binutils-2.17.50.0.5/bfd/elflink.c:9707:47: error: macro "memcpy" requires 3 arguments, but only 2 given |
| 15:56.35 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 15:56.39 | baze | is it possible to run openmoko in virtualbox? |
| 15:59.04 | mjr | what would be the point? |
| 15:59.07 | mjr | add a virtualization layer that doesn't bring you a bit closer to the neo hw |
| 15:59.19 | woglinde | jo mickeyl |
| 15:59.41 | baze | i just want to have a look at it... |
| 15:59.44 | mickeyl | re |
| 15:59.57 | baze | i won't buy the neo anyway |
| 15:59.57 | robtaylor | hey mickeyl :) |
| 16:00.14 | lrak | baze: why? |
| 16:00.20 | mickeyl | pH5: heh, not really a surround system, however after evaluating some systems, pulseaudio seems to be the best shot as low level API |
| 16:00.23 | mickeyl | hey woglinde |
| 16:00.34 | baze | i'll wait for a later phone with usb 2.0, a camera and such stuff |
| 16:00.51 | baze | the neo is nice, no question |
| 16:00.55 | thresh | anyone has that problem with binutils ? |
| 16:00.57 | baze | but i miss some things |
| 16:01.54 | baze | powered usb 2.0, a camera, umts, multitouch. mainly those |
| 16:02.40 | SpeedEvil | USB2 - no. |
| 16:02.50 | baze | a neo with those and i'd buy it right away |
| 16:02.54 | SpeedEvil | Because basically it's really expensive to add to a mobile device. |
| 16:03.04 | SpeedEvil | UMTS - it's very limited market - future models. |
| 16:03.06 | mickeyl | hi Robot101 |
| 16:03.10 | mickeyl | ~lart tab completion |
| 16:03.10 | apt | pulls out his louisville slugger and uses tab completion's head to break the homerun record |
| 16:03.12 | mickeyl | hi robtaylor |
| 16:03.21 | SpeedEvil | Multitouch is somewhat harder to make, and a bit more complex to drive. |
| 16:03.26 | SpeedEvil | Also UMTS is expensive. |
| 16:03.27 | robtaylor | mickeyl: heh, easy mistake to nme |
| 16:03.29 | robtaylor | *make |
| 16:03.29 | mickeyl | zecke: i'm afraid gdkwindow is so fscked i can't help in unfscking it ;) |
| 16:03.48 | baze | yeah, umts is at the bottom of the wishlist ;) |
| 16:03.50 | SpeedEvil | I would like a - even VGA - camera. |
| 16:04.07 | SpeedEvil | CDMA is below it :) |
| 16:04.07 | baze | it's definately not a must have and i'd buy the phone without it too of course |
| 16:04.16 | baze | but a cam would be nice |
| 16:05.15 | SpeedEvil | No cam is fine too. |
| 16:05.47 | happycube | i think there'd be some interesting stuff you could do with the camera+gps+position sensors |
| 16:06.07 | happycube | you could rig it to take new pictures every x feet for instance |
| 16:06.30 | SpeedEvil | Position sensors buy you relatively little alas. |
| 16:06.35 | *** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85-124-36-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 16:06.40 | SpeedEvil | If they are just accelerometers |
| 16:06.46 | SpeedEvil | you have no information on roll |
| 16:06.50 | happycube | point |
| 16:06.53 | SpeedEvil | roll about the gravity axis |
| 16:07.04 | happycube | would need a small compass instead/too |
| 16:07.08 | SpeedEvil | or if there are two of them, very little. |
| 16:07.14 | SpeedEvil | A 3 axis compass would be nice. |
| 16:07.48 | DukeOfURL | gravity axis begins at the center of the earth? |
| 16:07.56 | SpeedEvil | It's slightly more complex. |
| 16:08.02 | SpeedEvil | Because you don't actually measure that. |
| 16:08.07 | SpeedEvil | But accelleration + gravity |
| 16:08.41 | SpeedEvil | But yes, one 3 axis accelerometer pins down the yaw and pitch of the phone about that axis. |
| 16:09.02 | SpeedEvil | which wobbles a bit round pointing straight down, for a handheld phone mostly stationary |
| 16:10.03 | *** join/#openmoko crackfiend (n=chatzill@adsl-69-225-134-40.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) |
| 16:13.51 | *** join/#openmoko GvzEvxre (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
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| 16:41.56 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] |
| 16:53.01 | SpeedEvil | UK - vodaphone web news http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2096912,00.html |
| 16:54.51 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 17:00.23 | DukeOfURL | is the accelerometer measuring the accelerometer due to gravity??? |
| 17:00.50 | DukeOfURL | is the accelerometer measuring the acceleration due to gravity??? |
| 17:01.01 | *** join/#openmoko heikkit (n=chatzill@adsl-75-5-124-98.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 17:01.22 | mjr | that too |
| 17:01.46 | holtmann | Can we make use OpenMoko OE setup automatically use the bluez-libs and bluez-utils from CVS? |
| 17:02.16 | mickeyl | yes, i can do that when i'm in .tw. |
| 17:02.36 | mickeyl | saturday, sunday, |
| 17:03.00 | mickeyl | if noone beats me to it |
| 17:03.04 | holtmann | I just try to workaround it, but that is basically ugly. |
| 17:03.38 | holtmann | The recipe in OE should be up-to-date for the new services infrastructure. |
| 17:04.27 | *** join/#openmoko mhzhu (n=mhzhu@220.248.229.20) |
| 17:05.02 | mickeyl | agreed |
| 17:05.22 | holtmann | Or is there an easy way for me to modify the overlay. |
| 17:05.34 | thresh | i've an error building openembedded, bails out on binutils, saying that memcpy macro is used with two parameters instead of 3 |
| 17:06.26 | mickeyl | holtmann: well, you could just add a bluez-libs_svn.bb |
| 17:06.32 | mickeyl | or cvs |
| 17:06.47 | mickeyl | and override PV to be larger than what's in our snapshot |
| 17:07.06 | mickeyl | we usually use PV = 0.3.2+svn${SRCDATE}" |
| 17:07.10 | mickeyl | (or so) |
| 17:07.22 | *** join/#openmoko slomo_ (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 17:07.28 | holtmann | I am not that good with OE right now. Where do I put that file. |
| 17:08.14 | mickeyl | you can mkdir bluez-utils in our overlay |
| 17:08.19 | mickeyl | i.e. oe/packages/bluez-utils |
| 17:08.26 | mickeyl | copy the stuff you need from OE |
| 17:08.37 | mickeyl | and then add your new bb file, basically only changing the SRC_URI and PV |
| 17:08.47 | mickeyl | (and add new dependencies as you might need) |
| 17:09.04 | mickeyl | like i said, i can do it in a couple of days |
| 17:09.12 | mickeyl | if you can wait so long :) |
| 17:09.55 | holtmann | I wanna have something running before I board the plane tomorrow. And until now I was compiling directly on the phone. |
| 17:10.26 | mickeyl | ah. well today will be tough and tomorrow i will board the plane |
| 17:10.47 | mickeyl | sigh let me take a look |
| 17:10.47 | holtmann | Don't worry. If I can work out that thing with the overlay, I am good to go. |
| 17:11.10 | holtmann | I might need extra work anyway. The new build options etc. |
| 17:11.26 | mickeyl | hmm yeah. i'm afraid it needs more than just 10 minutes |
| 17:11.39 | holtmann | I think so. |
| 17:12.31 | mickeyl | well, if you run into problems just ping again. I'll check IRC at least once before going to sleep today. |
| 17:15.33 | holtmann | Seems to work. Thanks. |
| 17:16.05 | *** join/#openmoko jeddy3 (n=data@h-193-67.A148.cust.bahnhof.se) |
| 17:16.06 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2192 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-base/ (4 files in 3 dirs): oe: add openmoko-sound-system_0.1.0.bb plus session file |
| 17:16.27 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03mickey * r2193 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-base/openmoko-session/ (. session): oe: move openmoko-session file to own directory |
| 17:19.30 | *** join/#openmoko abraxa_ (n=abraxa@pD95FF5E4.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:22.00 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 17:27.17 | [psy] | anyone overhere going to ccc camp 2007? |
| 17:28.41 | alphaone | yup |
| 17:29.04 | Rince | not sure yet |
| 17:29.13 | alphaone | GSM Village :-) |
| 17:29.23 | [psy] | cool :D |
| 17:29.36 | [psy] | while ther ebe openmoko stuff i can see? :) |
| 17:30.43 | alphaone | I'm pretty sure :-) |
| 17:31.07 | alphaone | I'll bring all the stuff I have and I know Shoragan and stefan_schmidt will, too |
| 17:31.54 | *** join/#openmoko k-s[WORK] (n=gustavo@200.184.118.132) |
| 17:33.08 | [psy] | aww :) |
| 17:33.15 | [psy] | cool alphaone |
| 17:33.21 | [psy] | #camp is the channel for it |
| 17:33.38 | [psy] | i'm definatly will visit gsmvillage then :D |
| 17:33.50 | alphaone | [psy]: I know :-) |
| 17:33.54 | [psy] | where are you from alphaone ? |
| 17:34.28 | alphaone | [psy]: Braunschweig, Germany |
| 17:34.33 | alphaone | So not that far |
| 17:34.37 | [psy] | ah i see |
| 17:34.43 | [psy] | i'm from the netherlands |
| 17:34.45 | [psy] | 8 hour drive |
| 17:34.45 | [psy] | :) |
| 17:35.26 | alphaone | WTH was quite a ride for us. :-) |
| 17:35.36 | [psy] | i bet it was |
| 17:35.48 | [psy] | now we will go to your place to make it up to you ;) |
| 17:36.02 | alphaone | ;-) |
| 17:36.13 | alphaone | The location looks really cool |
| 17:36.18 | [psy] | and drink all your bit |
| 17:37.15 | *** join/#openmoko ruskie (i=ruskie@sourcemage/mage/ruskie) |
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| 17:46.56 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Are there any applications? |
| 17:48.37 | zecke | mickey|dinner: mentor? |
| 17:50.46 | alphaone | zecke: You wouldn't want to disturb your mentor while he is eating, would you? :-) |
| 17:52.23 | zecke | alphaone: hmm |
| 17:52.56 | *** join/#openmoko Kensan (n=ken@gw.ptr-80-238-226-174.customer.ch.netstream.com) |
| 17:53.33 | *** join/#openmoko deepank (n=deepank@59.178.44.219) |
| 17:54.38 | deepank | Hi, I would like to know how to develop applications for openmoko using libmokoui |
| 17:56.01 | *** join/#openmoko a_ (n=a@222.232.25.152) |
| 18:01.12 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@CPE-124-177-196-95.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 18:01.44 | stefan_schmidt | deepank: Sounds good. What kind of application? |
| 18:01.54 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@132.213.238.4) |
| 18:02.43 | stefan_schmidt | deepank: At the moment the lib is still work in progress and no doc exists so you have to read the code and other apps for the usage it seems. |
| 18:03.40 | Vegar | will there be an "official" scripting language for the platform? |
| 18:03.49 | Vegar | ie. one that's installed by default |
| 18:04.11 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 18:05.40 | don-o | Vegar: there is a wiki page on that, i forget the name |
| 18:05.43 | stefan_schmidt | Vegar: Hard to decide. All the scripting languages are quite big. But I see no problem to load them on the phone will installing an app. It's just a normal linux distro in the end. |
| 18:06.03 | Vegar | I see |
| 18:06.07 | don-o | Vegar: basically it says javascript and J2ME will definitely be there. perl/python/ruby is a big maybe. |
| 18:06.08 | stefan_schmidt | No need to think about this stuff like for coding on other phones. :) |
| 18:06.24 | stefan_schmidt | don-o: Who says Java will be there by default? |
| 18:06.45 | don-o | stefan_schmidt: the wiki page i read :) |
| 18:07.03 | stefan_schmidt | don-o: OpenMoko never stated that it will be there by default. |
| 18:07.14 | Vegar | stefan_schmidt: with a default scripting language, you would rarely need to install other languages |
| 18:07.17 | don-o | stefan_schmidt: my bad. its a wishlist wiki page. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:BuiltInScriptingLanguage |
| 18:07.31 | Vegar | and storage space on embedded devices is sort of limited |
| 18:07.36 | stefan_schmidt | don-o: We don't support Java active. Fine when somebody is working on it though |
| 18:07.41 | mwester | /bin/bash |
| 18:08.07 | stefan_schmidt | Vegar: There is just no need to force developer to a special language |
| 18:08.16 | don-o | stefan_schmidt: seems like javascript is the mostly likely language to count on. assuming the mozilla javascript interpreter will be available as a seperate binary. |
| 18:08.22 | stefan_schmidt | Vegar: We use C/GTK++, but all other are fine too |
| 18:08.45 | deepank | Ok but can I get some idea as to how the library is organised |
| 18:09.01 | stefan_schmidt | don-o: hmm, zecke works on webkit, not mozilla for the html stuff |
| 18:09.13 | don-o | stefan_schmidt: interesting. |
| 18:09.14 | Vegar | I get your point |
| 18:10.09 | Robot101 | mickey|dinner: hi, you hi'd? :) |
| 18:10.24 | deepank | I am planning to develop a battleship... |
| 18:10.38 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@CPE-124-177-196-95.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 18:10.40 | deepank | game application |
| 18:10.41 | Vegar | deepank: a game? |
| 18:10.47 | deepank | yes |
| 18:11.08 | stefan_schmidt | deepank: You know GDK/GTK? |
| 18:11.16 | don-o | id like to see (or write) a bluetooth multiplayer game |
| 18:11.30 | thresh | *sigh* |
| 18:11.40 | thresh | | cc1: warnings being treated as errors |
| 18:11.46 | thresh | 86: warning: ignoring return value of 'fscanf', declared with attribute warn_unused_result |
| 18:11.50 | thresh | and it errors out |
| 18:12.05 | balrog-kun | thresh: what package is it in? |
| 18:12.08 | deepank | Yes it will be a bluetooth multiplayer game ... I dont know GTK however |
| 18:12.16 | don-o | deepank: nice. |
| 18:12.19 | thresh | balrog-kun: binutils |
| 18:12.26 | thresh | binutils-cross-2.17.50.0.5-r1/binutils-2.17.50.0. |
| 18:12.26 | balrog-kun | hmm |
| 18:13.08 | stefan_schmidt | deepank: So best would be to read an introduction into GDK/GTK and look at some already written apps using mokoui from svn |
| 18:13.35 | thresh | i wonder why there's a Werror |
| 18:13.56 | deepank | ok ... I am currently doing that |
| 18:14.26 | deepank | I will need all your help however :) |
| 18:16.18 | stefan_schmidt | deepank: Just ask here or on openmoko-application once you have a real question. I fear I don't have and answer, but others can jump in. |
| 18:17.11 | deepank | stefan_schmidt:thanks |
| 18:17.35 | deepank | stefan_schmidt: yes, it will take me some time to start coding on it |
| 18:17.37 | stefan_schmidt | deepank: np, thanks for starting development for OpenMoko :) |
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| 18:41.56 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Idarwin]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Talk:Contacts]] [[Contacts]] [[Terminal]] [[Clock]] |
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| 19:05.29 | parag0n | ah |
| 19:14.12 | MacNorthXP | cingular/att is outrageously expensive |
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| 19:20.24 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/122973/rb/0 bluetooth audio sender. Might be interesting if you could fake either end in the neo. |
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| 19:23.00 | Vegar | SpeedEvil: sending audio to devices? |
| 19:23.55 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 19:23.59 | SpeedEvil | Or recieving from. |
| 19:24.10 | SpeedEvil | If it's truly bluetooth. |
| 19:24.18 | SpeedEvil | Fake the other half. |
| 19:28.48 | koen | holtmann: oops, sorry wrong number |
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| 19:45.51 | x_Fight | counter |
| 19:45.51 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: 5 days 20:07:04 (5.838±5.8 days) (1413;228) |
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| 20:18.36 | Bish | i need phukin openmoko, noow ! :'( |
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| 20:35.15 | mjr | hmh, sent what ended up amounting to a "me, too" mail on the list |
| 20:35.28 | mjr | I plead tiredness |
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| 20:39.17 | zecke | alphaone: so mickey differentiates from eating and dinner |
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| 20:41.08 | balrog-kun | you can go for a dinner and just stare at it for a while |
| 20:41.54 | guaqua | i read, stare at tit |
| 20:42.56 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[MokoMakefile]] [[User_talk:CaqZb1]] [[Terminal]] [[User_talk:Vv9Zqx]] [[Clock]] |
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| 21:04.27 | MacNorth | what curious vandalism -- just partial deletions, no spam links :-\ |
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| 21:14.39 | xkr47 | counter |
| 21:14.39 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: 5 days 19:22:40 (5.807±5.8 days) (1414;228) |
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| 21:24.00 | Moo^^ | xkr47: cows' nerves are useful in this situation :) |
| 21:27.45 | pavelm | Is hrw still around? |
| 21:28.08 | pavelm | (I tried to say hello, but my machine apparently disagreed with that) |
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| 21:29.52 | balrog-kun | no more modules! |
| 21:29.55 | univac | balrog-kun: do you have neo in home? ;] |
| 21:30.02 | balrog-kun | yup |
| 21:30.16 | univac | mm :> |
| 21:30.44 | psymin | I'm sure this is a dumb question, but how much is the Neo1973 estimated to cost? |
| 21:30.44 | aloril | psymin: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
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| 21:32.07 | guaqua | see topic, psymin :) |
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| 21:52.58 | pavelm | balrog: Congrats to tricky operation. I wish openmoko project used the same approach ;-) |
| 22:06.43 | balrog-kun | pavelm: :) |
| 22:07.01 | balrog-kun | without debugging info it might even fit into the original 2 MB space |
| 22:07.30 | pavelm | balrog: Hmm, you probably will not be using debugging info, anyway, so.. |
| 22:07.47 | balrog-kun | pavelm: i already did use it |
| 22:09.06 | pavelm | balrog: Aha, ok :-) |
| 22:16.25 | pavelm | Help me: what is reasonable binary distro to install on openmoko? |
| 22:16.45 | pavelm | I'd like minimal .tar.gz of debian, but they only have CD images. |
| 22:16.58 | pavelm | Angstrom is not an option, since it will not be compatible with gllin AFAICT. |
| 22:17.18 | pavelm | I'd like python/gtk to work, so I do not have to deal with crosscompiling X apps. |
| 22:17.23 | SpeedEvil | What's wrong with a CD image - and 1G card? |
| 22:17.35 | zecke | pavelm: what is currently broken with pygtk |
| 22:17.46 | zecke | pavelm: it must be important when you mention it twice a day :) |
| 22:18.06 | pavelm | zecke: Where do I find it? |
| 22:18.10 | SpeedEvil | She's now out. |
| 22:18.12 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 22:18.29 | pavelm | zecke: I do not know where to get pygtk for openmoko. |
| 22:18.52 | pavelm | zecke: ipkg update does not work. |
| 22:19.01 | balrog-kun | get the sources |
| 22:19.06 | zecke | pavelm: I know ph5 fixed some pygtk issues in the OE tree. Do you use the 'official' images? I could see how far my pygtk builds goes |
| 22:20.17 | pavelm | zecke: I have http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01-20070604001826.rootfs.jffs2 here; can go to 06-jun image. |
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| 22:21.31 | pavelm | zecke: angstrom .ipkg system worked, but pygtk apps complained about some python problems. |
| 22:21.41 | pavelm | zecke: (Could not find ... something). |
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| 22:41.56 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Clock]] |
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| 23:16.04 | Psi_ | they should definitely use this for a future openmoko device http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2010384636.html |
| 23:22.13 | cheesy | Psi_: this thing looks neat :) |
| 23:22.25 | Psi_ | yeah |
| 23:23.28 | Psi_ | ya would need another pcb for the extra stuff in the phone like gsm,gps, etc. but it would still nice and small and have lots of raw power for a phone :) |
| 23:23.39 | Psi_ | -small |
| 23:29.09 | webjames | night all, looking good! :) |
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