IRC log for #openmoko on 20070605

00:00.04*** join/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@adsl-69-232-229-148.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
00:03.52Psi_is it normal with phone manufacturing to have the delays the neo has had?
00:04.00woglindepsi yes
00:04.10woglindepsi normaly it is worser
00:04.46Psi_if its so normal, i wonder why they didnt expect it in the estimations of the eta
00:05.06SpeedEvilUmm.
00:05.10SpeedEvilIt's a delay.
00:05.18SpeedEvilThe best guess was what they had.
00:05.23Psi_heh
00:05.29SpeedEvilDelays are generally unexpected.
00:05.36woglindepsi and you cant compare the moral of european or american buisnesmann with chinese one
00:05.44Psi_hehe true
00:05.50woglindethey said you get in one week
00:05.58woglindeand than its half a year
00:06.21woglindethat is what laforge said on friday
00:06.23Psi_im not complaining, ive got plenty of things to do, quite busy atm, so the delays are no problem for me
00:06.25balrog-kuni don't know if this kind of delays is normal,
00:06.36woglindebalorg it is
00:06.42woglindebelivme
00:06.42balrog-kuni think other companies may have better project manager who are able to predict the delays better
00:06.47balrog-kunand other companies worse ones
00:07.09woglindebalrog other companies dont show the delays because the development isnt open
00:07.20mhentgesbalrog-kun: the current delay may have something to do with the current internal "changes" at FIC ;)
00:07.23Psi_i was just curious, with FIC being such a big company one would expect them to have formulas to predict the average delays and incorporate them into their etas
00:08.05woglindenite to all
00:08.07woglindeits late
00:08.17balrog-kuni think the opennes doesn't make much difference here
00:08.18xl0mhentges: Could we hear more about the "changes"?
00:08.48mhentgesnot from me no ;)
00:11.12xl0After seeing the neo+sun thing I'm kind of nervous, is it possible that the project may become more closed in the future?
00:11.13woglinde?????
00:11.13SpeedEvil+sun?
00:11.14woglindeharald runs gpl-violations.org
00:11.14SpeedEvilSolar power?
00:11.14woglindehe mean the javafx thing
00:11.14SpeedEvilOr a stellar nursery.
00:11.14mjrI think he means the mock screenshots of neo running the java thingy
00:11.14woglindemjr right
00:11.14SpeedEvilAnyone can take the hardware and run their own crap on it.
00:11.15mjrand yeah, SpeedEvil had the 10-point answer
00:11.17SpeedEvilThe flipside of OM is that it inherently documents phones.
00:11.19xl0http://de.sun.com/homepage/index.html
00:11.32SpeedEvilSo if MS/... wants to, they can.
00:11.34woglindexl0 when know this already
00:11.45woglindeargs we
00:13.08mjrI wouldn't really call documenting phones a flipside :]
00:13.18SpeedEvilNo - not quite.
00:13.28SpeedEvilThough for stuff like MS/OLPC...
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00:13.32xl0But still, it's changing from "openmoko" to "openmoko or javafx at your choice"...
00:13.46SpeedEvilOr slackware.
00:13.52SpeedEvil:)
00:14.14xl0What is this javafx stuff anyway? ;)
00:14.42SpeedEvilYou'd need it to start X, and have a WM with an accessible virtual keyboard, but you don't have to run OM stuff.
00:14.50mjrif you don't know, why're you hyped up about it?
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00:16.03xl0mjr: Something tells me this is a proprietary solution, and google gives a tons of marketing crap...
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00:18.59xl0Or not proprietary...
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01:07.43CIA-24openmoko: 03werner * r2154 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch uboot-20061030-qt2410.patch):
01:07.44CIA-24openmoko: uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch:
01:07.44CIA-24openmoko: board/neo1973/common/lowlevel_init.S (lowlevel_init): use PC-relative
01:07.44CIA-24openmoko:  addressing so that lowlevel_init can be safely called multiple times
01:07.44CIA-24openmoko: uboot-20061030-qt2410.patch:
01:07.45CIA-24openmoko: board/qt2410/lowlevel_init.S (lowlevel_init): use PC-relative
01:07.49CIA-24openmoko:  addressing so that lowlevel_init can be safely called multiple times
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01:37.55richard_Hi. Where is the "OpenMoko metadata directory"
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01:41.32richard_in "Setting up an openmoko SDK" section of http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko, but I can't find OpenMoko metadata directory
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02:14.34rohrichard_ take a look at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile
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02:30.15rwhitbyroh: any outstanding MokoMakefile problems that you're aware of?
02:34.25CIA-24openmoko: 03werner * r2155 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/boot-from-ram-and-nand.patch: cpu/arm920t/start.S: do NAND load only if OM[1:0] indicate NAND boot as well
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02:47.21CIA-24openmoko: 03werner * r2156 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/lowlevel_foo.patch: board/qt2410/Makefile: build lowlevel_foo.bin (for loading through JTAG)
02:49.36CIA-24openmoko: 03werner * r2157 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/lowlevel_foo_qt2410.patch: lowlevel_foo_qt2410.patch has been merged with lowlevel_foo.patch
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02:55.35rohrwhitby not really atm
02:55.45rohnothing which does not happen with plain OE ;)
02:56.16rohsome problems with qemu were there, but thats not really reproducable for me atm
02:56.34rwhitbyok, thx
02:58.04rohhm.. if i had the time i would want the qemu to have its own out of tree copy of hcd-dummy since i know no distrokernels which bring it precompiled (its needed for the virtual usbcable between the qemu-target and the host kernel)
02:59.48rohin the end i think the qemu should have its own bb recipe and also be built inside that. as -native package
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03:41.14hakrXerik hej
03:47.55Psi_once they neo is released someone should setup a website with a world map, and write a neo application that reports your location every day over GPRS, be cool to see where all the neos are around the world :P
03:48.00Psi_they=the
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04:26.02sparqPsi_: A bash script should be sufficient
04:40.06sparq`gpspipe -r -n 1 | mutt -s "Location of `whoami`@`hostname -f`" neolocator@openmoko.org
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04:43.13sparqer, omit that first `
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04:44.37overseercounter
04:45.06overseerany day now eh?  sweet
04:45.33cjbthat's what they want you to think
04:47.36Psi_sparq, :)
04:47.58sparqassuming you have mutt and an MTA ^_^
04:48.26Psi_i think your neo should be able to notify you if you come within 100meters of another neo :P
04:49.25sparqThis reminds me of something... I think it's Highlander.
04:49.55Psi_heh
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04:50.16sparqNeo owners will be forced to battle to the death. There can be only one!
04:50.23Psi_hehe
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06:56.59pavelmGood morning...
06:57.16Mark__Tmorning
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07:01.33empty_mindkoen,
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07:19.20nobody96moin
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07:27.52Hopscotchgood morning
07:29.25pavelmHello, hopscotch.
07:29.35pavelm...seems like openmoko team is mostly using european time ;-)
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07:36.48hrwmorning
07:37.08hrwpavelm: most of them are european?
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07:37.30TRIsoftmorning
07:37.33hrwhi Mac
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07:40.48nobody96sparq, im living in Europe, but i havent found my timezone yet
07:46.10Mark__Thrw: at least at this time of day most are european
07:47.26Stephmwmornin'
07:47.49Mark__Tmorning
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08:46.18billl_counter
08:48.49hadsI think it's on holiday
08:49.59Stephmwhe's probably gone to 'borrow' a Neo from the fab plant :)
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08:54.18bedboihi there.
08:54.28bedboican we buy? :)
08:54.58ewonTEN DOLLAH
08:54.58cheesyany day now?
08:55.01ewonno, not yet.
08:55.06hrwargh.. yesterday I flashed uboot 2112 and today 2157 is built
08:55.23bedboiah, i need to know if it will work in the U.S.
08:55.28bedboii will be there for 2 months
08:55.47guaquait'll be a gsm phone
08:55.54guaquaso it depends on the carrier
08:56.17bedboii don't know that much on US carriers
08:56.23bedboireally.
08:57.00guaquathen you should probably find out which one you'll be using and figure it out
08:57.25bedboiwill ask a friend of mine that was there last year
08:57.42bedboibtw going in U.S. is really annoying for the visa stuff.
08:57.54bedboiand very expensive too
08:58.02guaquadepends on the kind of visa you need
08:58.04bedboi200$ for visa
08:58.12bedboii'll go on J-1
08:58.17guaquaregular travel visa is nothing
08:58.41bedboiguaqua: i know. Btw I need J-1 to be payed
08:58.51bedboiso you have to pay to be payed
08:59.09bedboiand you have to proof that you earn at least 1600$/month
08:59.24bedboiotherwise you can't enter the US
08:59.39LuitvDwhat a nazis
08:59.44bedboiand you have to fill PLENTY of stuff, and to bring PLENTY of documents
09:00.03bedboialso the funny checkbox stuff
09:00.07bedboiAre you a terrorist
09:00.10bedboiand so on
09:00.18guaquaand everything in duplicate :)
09:00.51bedboiguaqua: the bad stuff is that i have to go to Naples (in my city there's no US Consulate office)
09:00.59bedboiand Naples is nasty
09:01.12bedboiit's not visitor-friendly
09:02.33bedboikelvinn: what's the reason behind that?
09:03.29bedboikelvinn: i mean it's nonsense restricting that much the entrance and then giving guns to people.
09:04.02bedboiitaly is a mess, but give people guns and it would become a nightmare
09:04.05guaquait's easy to criticize
09:04.22bedboiwell i know the US is not a simple country
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09:04.38bedboiguaqua: i'm the first one criticizing my country
09:04.48kelvinnI'm going to Tibet next month, which means I need a permit.  To get the permit I need a China visa.  However, I'm in Taiwan, and there isn't away for me to get a China visa, and no travel agencies in Hong Kong will get involved, and none of the embassies where my passports were issued respond to the issue...
09:04.50guaqualimiting immigration and fighting crime are two spearate issues
09:06.12bedboikelvinn: that's insane
09:07.01kelvinnyea -- plus with the recent demonstration at Everest there is a 10-day wait for Tibet permits...  Oh well, everything will work out I'm sure, always does, eh?
09:07.27madwootabureaucracies rock :P
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09:07.39balrog-kunvisas (not only US) and generally country borders are something useless inherited from middle ages :)
09:08.03guaquanot really
09:10.02bedboimadwoota: hahaha
09:10.59bedboisomething like 30 papers.
09:12.03tholinI'm planning a trip to japan. I wonder how much paperwork I need for that
09:12.54guaquatourist trips are a breeze to most countries
09:14.12mjryeah; I visited Japan a bit over a year ago, was easy
09:14.23mjrthey were just planning to start taking fingerprints and stuff tho
09:14.59ewonlast time I went to the US they took my pic and my thumbprint
09:15.12tholinplz
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09:27.18webjamesmorning
09:27.54bedboitholin: if you travel from Italy it's very easy
09:28.03webjameshttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6720547.stm
09:28.30bedboitholin: if you have to work is really difficult. Japan is very restrictive in that
09:28.42tholinI travel from the european union.
09:28.59bedboibtw, do you know when Neos will be released for purchasing?
09:29.06bedboitholin: so it would be no problem.
09:29.22nobody96webjames, i like it this way
09:29.24tholinno work. Shopping for manga could be a full time occupation but it's not work.
09:29.53bedboiAHAHA
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09:48.25trihi
09:49.10TRIsofthi tri, here's also soft :-)
09:49.22CMHehe
09:50.02triyes and i'm hard :-)
09:50.27TRIsoft:-)
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10:08.51bedboiewon: i will stay in Albuquerque in August and September, then in Paris until January
10:10.58bedboiso concerning Neo, what are plans for shipment?
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10:17.42bedboi~timer
10:17.53bedboi~counter
10:18.05bedboi!counter
10:18.10bedboiok, i give up :)
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10:18.57Kensanbedboi: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/06/02#20070602-busy-busy-busy
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10:21.56Fletch_workcounter
10:22.19Fletch_work^^
10:22.33Fletch_workhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter
10:22.35bedboiyep i read that.
10:24.25bedboiso it should be a matter of days.
10:25.18lrakbedboi: you are holding the flag of quite a bunch of us
10:25.38triare there allready applications for the openmoko available ?
10:26.02bedboilrak: eheh...
10:26.13Kensanbedboi: more like 2-3 weeks
10:26.29bedboidamn :)
10:26.37bedboii need that. :)(
10:28.57bedboiyou have accelerometers??
10:29.00bedboithat's VERY cool
10:29.17triis there allready a todo / calendar application for openmoko ?
10:29.32hrwyes
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10:32.23triwhere to find more information about this application ?
10:32.37xkr47a sec
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10:33.34hrwhttp://www.pimlico-project.org/dates.html will tell more about calendar app
10:34.12xkr47oh
10:34.41trithx
10:34.55hrwtri: OpenMoko use Pimlico apps adapted to portrait VGA display
10:35.52balrog-kunyou would get most information from downloading and running it
10:36.28trihrw: would the todo/cal app be like the famous datebk app for palm ?
10:36.39xkr47datebk3!
10:36.40xkr47:)
10:36.50xkr47it was a great app indeed
10:37.38triyes i like a lot and i would help to have such a application for openmoko
10:38.01trithe pimlico project tries this allready ?
10:38.10hrwI used Agendus rather then DateBk
10:38.54triyes i know agendus it is also nice
10:39.08trii think a must have is the "every day todo list"
10:39.09hrwtri: OpenMoko PIM is split to few apps. Agendus/DateBk was one
10:39.32triyes right i'm specialy intressed at the todo list app
10:39.39hrwand it is not as powerfull - no icons, colors are done in other way
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10:40.27triis it possible to have a todo list for every day ?
10:40.44triand would the pimlico apps be the default pim app for the openmoko devices ?
10:41.07hrwno idea for todolist,  it is default
10:41.58trithx i will now checkout the source and have a look
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10:42.29trimaybe i can help that there will be this nice "every day todo list" feature :-)
10:42.50hrwpatches welcome
10:47.59triRoss Burton is not around ?
10:48.58CMNot right now it seems
10:51.43nobody96a make all with the mokomakefile is an epic quest even on a core2duo maschine
10:52.15balrog-kuntri: in some GNOME related channels perhaps
10:53.12nobody96balrog-kun, i think i have found the reason why the gadgetfs switch is on in the config-host.h
10:53.36balrog-kunnobody96: oh, what is the reason?
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10:54.08nobody96it works with the svn checkout when i add a -usb to the configure script
10:54.37nobody96maybe this dont affect the config-host.h but you get rid of the usb related errors with this
10:54.55nobody96i will check this when make all finishes
10:55.19balrog-kunumm, ./configure doesn't have a "-usb" parameter
10:55.28nobody96it hav
10:55.32nobody96mom
10:56.10balrog-kun./configure --help doesn't show it and i can't see it in the source either
10:56.13nobody96http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU
10:56.20nobody96i know
10:56.25nobody96but it works
10:56.36nobody96OHCI USB  Works  This part is in mainline QEMU. Use the "-usb" switch to enable the controller and "usb_add" in QEMU monitor to attach new virtual or physical USB devices.
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10:57.02balrog-kunthis talks about a "-usb" switch to qemu, not to ./configure
10:57.12nobody96hum...
10:57.26nobody96then i wonder why it works too
10:57.36nobody96i will try it
10:57.49balrog-kunnobody96: maybe it worked because you had rerun ./configure?
10:58.04nobody96may be
10:58.09balrog-kunmaybe you had an older copy of config-host.h left before, i'm not sure
10:58.29nobody96damn... i have to leave
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10:59.04balrog-kunsee you
10:59.07saiamI'm wondering is there any way to get a Neo1973 for development purposes before they come mass market?
10:59.37nobody96i really need openmoko with a working reminder :)
10:59.56hadssaiam: Yes, the release in n days is targeted at developers.
11:01.31saiamSo in n days anyone can order it, but it's mainly targeted to developers?
11:02.24hadsCorrect.
11:02.55Stephmwconsumers are a nuisance. but they really don't deserve the lumps developers will be getting :)
11:03.00cdbot2* * OM Bug 593 has been created by mickey@vanille-media.de
11:03.01cdbot2* * audio doesn't survive suspend/resume
11:03.02cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=593
11:04.41saiamWill it be stated clearly somewhere on the Internet when it is possible to order them, or should I send email to someone or something?
11:05.29balrog-kunsaiam: i bet it will be stated clearly enough, possibly including on slashdot.org
11:05.52saiamok
11:05.54saiamthank you
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11:12.29balrog-kunradio, tv... or maybe not :)
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11:13.47triwould build system is used to build the openmoko system for the ?
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11:16.19CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r2158 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (ChangeLog libmokoui/moko-finger-tool-box.c):
11:16.19CIA-24openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-finger-tool-box.c: (cb_configure): Use bg_pixmap as reference
11:16.19CIA-24openmoko: for compositing pixmap
11:17.01CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r2159 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/mokofingertoolbox:
11:17.01CIA-24openmoko: theme: add bg_pixmaps to mokofingertoolbox to be used when compositing the
11:17.01CIA-24openmoko: toolbox
11:18.04tri'/would/what/
11:19.36hrwtri: OpenEmbedded
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11:25.22CIA-24openmoko: 03njp * r2160 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/dialer-window-history.c: Added some debugging for the journal
11:25.26Psi_im trying to find the datasheet for the Atheros AR6K wifi chip but im not having much luck :(
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11:27.17Psi_nevermind
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11:45.34borg_counter
11:45.52CMaloril seems to be out of net
11:58.29Stephmwas I was saying, I think he's taken a flight to go stalk the fab plant
11:58.29CMHehe
11:58.30CMOr steal a GTA02 prototype ;)
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12:01.56CIA-24openmoko: 03njp * r2161 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/dialer-window-history.c: gtk-2.6 fixes
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12:15.10CIA-24openmoko: 03njp * r2162 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/dialer-window-history.c: Changed liststore and renderers to work properly with gtk-2.6
12:22.50CIA-24openmoko: 03mickey * r2163 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/sounds/touchscreen_click.wav: sounds: add sound for touchscreen click
12:27.51CIA-24openmoko: 03mickey * r2164 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/src/ (buttonactions.c buttonactions.h):
12:27.51CIA-24openmoko: openmoko-panel-mainmenu: add key clicks
12:27.52CIA-24openmoko: NOTE: While we are developing this feature, to enable the power management functions,
12:27.52CIA-24openmoko: you need to export the MOKO_POWERSAVE environment variable to "yes". Restart the matchbox-panel afterwards.
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13:57.12CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r2165 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-today/ (ChangeLog src/today-main.c):
13:57.12CIA-24openmoko: * src/today-main.c: (today_launcher_clicked_cb), (create_ui): Update launcher
13:57.12CIA-24openmoko: code to use g_spawn_async ()
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14:00.46henaany list admins here?
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14:16.09Placidhena: i administrate my shopping list. Does that count? :)
14:23.00Rinceintersting
14:23.07Rincehttp://de.sun.com/
14:23.13Rinceand anyone complained we don't have media support=?
14:24.03PlacidThat device there looks slightly different though, doesn't it?
14:24.05PlacidThe trim, I mean.
14:24.31buzi think sun just stole that pic
14:24.44buzi mean where would they have gotten hardware?
14:26.39buzor does fic do something we dont know about?
14:26.39Rincewell- but there is the FIC
14:26.39buzyeah i know
14:26.39Rincethe FIC logo down there
14:26.39buzbut they probably figured fic wouldnt care
14:26.39buzmoto etc might have
14:27.14buzfic should force sun to port java to moko in return ;)
14:27.14buzlenovo
14:27.59loufoqueisn't there an opensource implementation of Java for ARM already?
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14:37.05Stephmwloufoque: without suitable UI bindings it'd be just a minor curiousity
14:37.27loufoquewho cares about GUI
14:37.29loufoqueit's useless
14:37.33Stephmwloufoque: hence why all the open source java work we've seen here is working on UI integration as well
14:37.40loufoquewhat's needed for openmoko is just a good terminal
14:37.49Stephmwhahahaha
14:37.57hrwand vim
14:37.59Stephmwyou forgot </sarcasm> there
14:38.02loufoquethen I'll browse the web with w3m
14:38.17loufoqueway better than webkit or mozilla
14:38.18mwester-laptopemacs, of course.
14:38.27Stephmwloufoque: you sound like you might enjoy whistleing ATDT commands to the gsm modem
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14:54.18CIA-24openmoko: 03njp * r2166 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/dialer-window-history.c: fixed segfault in 'delete call' dialog
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14:54.41rraehi
14:55.16rraesomething what really bothers me is, that there are no keys
14:55.26hrwthere are two ;
14:55.27hrw)
14:56.12rraedoes somebody knows if something like this will come as a variant: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List_-_Hardware#D-Pad_and_Buttons ?
14:56.20hrwno
14:56.24rraeshit
14:56.27buznot anytime soon
14:56.33buzwhich is a pity especiaallly with the gpu
14:57.12rraegames are a big factor how much game i would spend for a mobile device
14:57.35rraeand this totally excludes racing games and the like
14:58.10buzits kinda sad
14:58.15mjrI _will_ port sopwith
14:58.16rraewell ok, so i have to wayt for the second edition :(
14:58.23buzthere would be ample space for a gameboy advance kind of layout
14:58.26mjrI don't care if nobody else can play it but me
14:59.07rraewell then make that public ;)
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15:03.07xkr47mjr, good luck! :)
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15:11.08pjzcounter
15:12.26CIA-24openmoko: 03njp * r2167 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/dialer-window-history.c: 'Delete call' code cleanup; Added a variable, to limit number of entries that are shown in the history view
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15:13.48Bishcounter
15:14.01Bishno counter anymore :P
15:14.53buzmjr: if nobody else can play, games might be rare
15:15.39Bishgames are fun !
15:15.43cheesyBish: aloril is on his way to mars or something else
15:16.05rd_Bish, *any day* now .. so no need counter :)
15:16.32Bishlol its just like genlop for portage :P
15:17.11Bishrd_: that means work on openmoko is nearly finished?
15:17.28Bishjust like my X11
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15:19.16Placidi want one
15:19.56balrog-kunBish: no
15:21.11Bishme too Placid .. i think evryone here does
15:21.48Placid:'(
15:21.50PlacidI hope it sells out
15:22.03Kensanrd_:It's still 2-3 weeks in the future.
15:22.05PlacidVoting with the wallet, so to speak.
15:22.11PlacidEncourage continued production etc etc
15:22.46balrog-kunit's *at least* 2-3 weeks...
15:23.04balrog-kunand it's the developer version, which means openmoko is not nearly finished
15:23.18SpeedEvilHardware should hopefully be though.
15:23.43Placid1+ for the masses?
15:23.49Placidi.e. not aimed just for devs
15:23.51KensanI guess it comes down to the quality of the devices coming out of the factory in china.
15:23.56Placidor is 2 the big one?
15:24.16SpeedEvilApparently - 1+ =2
15:24.35Placideh?
15:24.38Placidoh
15:24.40Placidri see
15:24.41SpeedEvilThere is not 1+ then 2
15:24.44SpeedEvil1+ = 2
15:24.49SpeedEvil2 is the mass market one.
15:24.59SpeedEvilAt least that's the current plan as I understand it.
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15:25.23Placidahhh, just updated software
15:25.26PlacidYeah you're right
15:25.37balrog-kunwhat's the "phase" version of the developer preview phones that are supposed to start selling now?
15:25.41PlacidCool, it'll have atheros based wifi
15:25.45balrog-kunare they P1?
15:25.47KensanPhase 1
15:25.48PlacidP1
15:25.54balrog-kunoh okay
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15:26.26balrog-kuni thought they would make some fixes between the free P1s shipped and the soon to be released ones
15:26.46KensanPhase 0 are the ~200 devices they sent to various hand-picked devs in mid-February afaik
15:27.19balrog-kunnot that i have seen anything wrong in the P1 but bugs are constantly being fixed
15:27.23PlacidP0 are the already shipped devices, as Kensan points out.
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15:34.18ElrondKensan - BTW: You said yesterday, that BT hat auth and encryption. Do you know how good it is?
15:36.34DukeOfURLIs there a way to do DTMF detection without an onboard signal processor?
15:37.23KensanThe bluetooth protocol as specified seems to be secure but there have been several succesfull attacks which relied on implementation specific weaknesses.
15:37.43mjryes, passing the sound through the soc
15:38.07KensanI have posted several links about this to this channel some time ago since there was a similar discussion if I remember correctly
15:38.26mjrWill eat some power of course
15:38.48KensanElrond: wikipedia has some info about bt and security.
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15:42.59CIA-24openmoko: 03njp * r2168 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (dialer-window-history.c dialer-window-outgoing.c): Outgoing calls are also added to the journal; History view fixes
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15:52.46PBeckhi
15:58.05ElrondKensan - Ahh. Thanks. :-)
15:58.23bmidgleyElrond: regarding bt auth/encryption, are you worried about evesdropping?
15:59.16Elrondbmidgley - Basicly yes.
15:59.58KensanElrond: There's a fairly good introductory article from securityfocus albeit from 2005: http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1830 http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1836
16:03.03ElrondKensan - I think, I've read that....
16:03.22KensanElrond - I think those were the links I posted last time ;)
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16:17.14CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r2169 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (3 files):
16:17.14CIA-24openmoko: openmoko-dialer: Add --show-missed command line option to show the history
16:17.14CIA-24openmoko: window filtered by missed calls
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16:28.05DukeOfURLheh: http://public.cq.com/docs/hs/hsnews110-000002524221.html
16:29.28PlacidJesus. Someone explain the meaning of a Democracy to the American Government please.
16:29.39DukeOfURLhi, I'm from the government, and I'm here to help...
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16:29.53Placidlol
16:30.07PlacidThat's crazy man
16:30.11PlacidThe politics of fear...
16:30.15DukeOfURLyup
16:30.23PlacidThere may be radioactive matieral around you citizens!
16:30.31DukeOfURLgotta keep the fear factor up there
16:30.32*** part/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@adsl-69-232-229-148.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
16:30.36PlacidI'm going to move to Norway and marry a goat
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16:31.12DukeOfURLwhat does the goat have to do with it?
16:31.54PlacidIt doesn't talk
16:31.59PlacidIt doesn't do polotics
16:32.02PlacidIt just stands there
16:32.06PlacidAnd it's really strong
16:32.11DukeOfURLoh
16:32.13PlacidAnd it's cheap
16:32.16PlacidSee?
16:32.17pengwenPlacid: and it eats you computer
16:32.29DukeOfURLI need a goat to eat the weeds in my yard...
16:32.45DukeOfURLactually, several goats.
16:32.55Placidlol
16:33.12Placidyou can employ my wife!
16:33.13pengwenoh, btw Placid hi from norway :)
16:33.18Placidhihi peng :)
16:33.19DukeOfURLouch
16:34.03DukeOfURLi checked a few years ago.  the goat herd is cheap, but the herder costs a lot of money.
16:34.38pengwenthats why u need a dog!
16:34.38PlacidWhy ouch? I wasn't aware that my comment was offensive
16:34.54DukeOfURLto your wife?
16:34.58pengwenDukeOfURL: his sexual prefs dosnt bother me :)
16:35.18*** part/#openmoko saiam (i=saiam@shell.paivola.fi)
16:36.08DukeOfURLok, what;s the deal with the "pad" on the Neo board?
16:36.09Placidno i thought you meant "ouch" to peng
16:36.15Placidyeah let's talk Neo
16:36.20Placidstop tlaking about goats...
16:36.48DukeOfURLdo I understand correctly that there's a pad where we can solder-in a component?
16:37.55SpeedEvilsort-of.
16:38.05SpeedEvilThere are reportedly pads that expose the SPI bus.
16:38.18SpeedEvilThis is 2 wires - and much stuff can just 'plug' into it.
16:38.45SpeedEvilThere is everything from temperature sensors to A/D to ...
16:39.05DukeOfURLalcohol sensor?
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16:39.23SpeedEvilI don't think integrated.
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16:39.29SpeedEvilBut you can connect to an A/D
16:39.40DukeOfURLHow is a two-wire device selected on the SPI bus?
16:39.51DukeOfURLresistive device
16:39.59PlacidThat's pretty cool
16:39.59SpeedEvilIt's not.
16:40.17SpeedEvilYou connect it to an A/D that speaks SPI.
16:40.22DukeOfURLok
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16:41.35PlacidSorry, what's A/D?
16:41.45mmpPlacid: analog to digital converter
16:41.50Placidahh
16:41.50PlacidThanks
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16:42.19DukeOfURLdo we have a spare A/D in the Neo?
16:42.44SpeedEvilNot as I understand it. They are almost free though.
16:42.58DukeOfURLa separate chip?
16:43.01SpeedEvilyes
16:43.04SpeedEvil$1-2
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16:47.12ElrondHI pH5! :-)
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16:53.14pH5hej Elrond
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17:01.58hrwsee you all
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17:54.42aloril(script) planet: Michael "mickeyl" Lauer: Back in Frankfurt/Main for a few days http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/06/04/back-in-frankfurtmain-for-a-few-days/
17:54.43aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[OpenMoko/it]] [[Category:Hardware]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] [[FAQ]] [[Wishlist:Determine_Position]] [[FAQ/zh_cn]] [[Widget_Inheritance_Graph]] [[MFAQCorrection]] [[Basic_End-user/it]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[User:MarcVerwerft]] and other changes
17:57.19*** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@john-marshall.sflc.info)
17:59.51simon__counter?
17:59.52aloril"/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) P1: a week 18:00:08 (7.750±6.0 days) (1400;225)
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18:19.50bazeis there a tango icon for the neo1973?
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18:22.39pH5baze: I tried to make one before I actually had the device: http://poh9.blogspot.com/2007/03/good-morning.html
18:23.38bazenot bad :)
18:24.02bazewhy did you stress that you did it before you actually had the device?
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18:26.42pH5on the black model the color of the "fic" text is wrong, it is (or maybe not) missing the "neo1973" text and the screen somehow looks a little too big.
18:27.22*** join/#openmoko denis^weg (n=denis@p54928ABF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
18:27.32bazeah i see
18:28.09alphaonepH5: What license are the icons under?
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18:40.25pH5alphaone: cc-by-sa
18:41.46sparqpH5: Nice work!
18:42.05alphaonepH5: Great
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18:43.50sparqWell, one more reason to hope for 802.11 -- if you subscribe to T-Mobile's GRPS service, you also get access to all of their WiFi hotspots, which are in nearly every Starbucks on earth.
18:44.32guaquaand if we just had a starbucks within 1000 kilometers from here
18:45.01cdbot2* * OM Bug 594 has been created by elrond+bugzilla.openmoko.org@samba-tng.org
18:45.02cdbot2* * openmoko-keyboard broen in landscape mode
18:45.03cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=594
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18:46.47sparqguaqua: There are 65 Starbucks within 5 miles from my house.
18:47.23ElrondCoreDump|afk - I think, you should obscure the emailaddr before posting to channel.
18:47.23sparqIt's actually kind of scary. http://www.starbucks.com/retail/locator/default.aspx
18:47.42ewon65?
18:47.42ewonjesus
18:47.47DukeOfURLis the T-Mobile GPRS the "walled garder" or is it open to the Internet?
18:48.39DukeOfURLIs it the same GPRS you get with a T-Mobile phone?
18:49.20sparqewon: That's nothing, though. There are over 250 Starbucks within 5 miles of my dad's office.
18:49.38ewonthere are 38 inside 5 miles of where I'll be working in LA
18:50.01sparqDukeOfURL: It's "real" internet
18:50.39DukeOfURLwhat was the discussion about a month ago about the T-Mobile "walled garden"
18:50.52sparqDukeOfURL: You can opt for the "walled garden" thing too, so that your kids can download porn.
18:50.55DukeOfURLoh, ok
18:50.57sparqcan't, I mean
18:51.02DukeOfURLheh
18:51.10pdinoto_hi, anybody here close to gsmd development?
18:51.24triare the starbucks wifi hotspots free of charge ?
18:51.26alorilP1.5 will likely have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-April/000012.html  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F  (WiFi status for P1.5 will be known for sure when P1 becomes available and also what kind of discount for P1.5 is given for P1 buyers)
18:53.17pH5pdinoto_: that'd be LaF0rge :)
18:54.30sparqtri: No.
18:54.53sparqDukeOfURL: They also have a thing called T-Zones, which is a product that I think predates their GPRS product. It's basically where you go to download stupid crap for your phone, like wallpapers and ringtones.
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18:55.11DukeOfURLk
18:58.19pdinoto_thanks, pH5.
18:59.45sparqUck. When I first signed up for T-Mobile, they gave me this horrilble Sony-Erricson phone with a crummy little joystick. It had an annoying tendency to unlock itself in my pocket. Inevitably, it would always somehow connect to T-Zones and start buying random shit.
19:01.07ewonheh
19:01.29sparqSo, I'd pick up my phone to call someone, and there would be a crappy Java game infesting the screen (that would 90 seconds just to quit, or would crash the OS), and I'd be $5.00 poorer.
19:03.01sparqThe company that writes those stupid games is near my house, just off I-405.
19:03.16ewonbomb them.
19:03.37sparqI often dreamed about driving over and chucking that horrible phone at their building.
19:04.06DukeOfURLwhat does the T-Mobile data plan cost (on the phone)?
19:04.13DukeOfURLunlimited?
19:05.00sparqIt's $29.99, unlimited
19:05.13sparqassuming you have a voice plan
19:05.36DukeOfURLcheaper than cingular
19:06.09don-odoes the pre-paid plan (tmobile togo) have a data option? i couldnt find pricing for it.
19:06.59*** join/#openmoko slider_ (n=foo@e182033202.adsl.alicedsl.de)
19:07.45sparqI think you need to have a plan to get GPRS.
19:08.36trisparq: hm you have a nice neighborhood: 45 starbucks and this nice company which writes these stupid games - who else lives near you :-)
19:08.37DukeOfURLfrom the web site: "Mobile-to-mobile minutes and data services are not available in certain roaming areas included on T-Mobile's coverage maps."
19:09.26sparqtri: I'm about 1.5 miles from O.J. Simpson's (former) house
19:09.47sparqtri: I also think Linsay Lohan's recent DUI arrest was about 2 miles away
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19:11.55DukeOfURLI spent two weeks on I405 one evening.  Not only did I miss my flight, I missed the next one.
19:13.10sparqDukeOfURL: I hate the 405. I hope that someday, LA will have a working subway system, and we can turn the 405 into a 100-mile-long park.
19:13.41aloril(script) openmoko-community: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" <mickey at openmoko.org> Re: [Fwd: Re: Neo1973 Update!]
19:13.57don-osparq: amen to that
19:14.05don-oim in venice and walk to work :)
19:14.39DukeOfURLHow would T-Mobile/Cingular charge for data on a pre-paid plan?  1MB data = x minutes?
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19:15.01don-oDukeOfURL: it would be cents, like SMSes are translated to cents
19:15.28DukeOfURLI have a T-Mobile pre-paid brochure here, and it makes no mention of data.
19:17.14DukeOfURLHere it is--Sidekick plan for unlimited email and "real" Web browsing plus text and IM--$1/day
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19:30.13Placido,0
19:30.17Placidi was in #overflow it seems
19:30.30PlacidIs an intel centrino SMP?
19:31.17happycubecentrino duo/pro is
19:31.32Placidi have just a "centrino"
19:31.35Placidibm thinkpad x31
19:31.40happycubedefinitely not smp
19:31.40Placid(the original, not lenovo)
19:31.56PlacidI'm trying to compile & install the rt2570 kernel module on this laptop
19:32.01Placidbut i seem to have a kernel that's SMP :\
19:32.09PlacidLinux moo 2.6.21.3 #1 SMP Mon May 28 20:29:33 BST 2007 i686 GNU/Linux
19:32.30Placidoh crap worng channel
19:32.34Placidi thought this was #linux
19:32.36Placidreally sorry
19:32.41ewonheh
19:35.14freskogI am about to setup a development environment for openmoko. I plan to mainly browse the source and perhaps write something trivial (until I can get my hands on the real deal). Is there any point in building the qemu image, or would it make more sense to compile everything for x86?
19:35.15alorilfreskog: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
19:39.27freskogthat answered my question.
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19:51.22don-ofreskog: what was the answer?
19:51.47freskogBuild for x86.
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19:56.41aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Category:Hardware]]
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20:00.46triis anybody building openmoko with t2 ?
20:02.07freskogt2?
20:02.08trit2-project.org
20:03.15freskogLooks interesting.
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20:20.58sparqdon-o: Ooo. Venice.
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20:23.37sparqPlacid: I guess it's off topic, but the SMP thing you are seeing indicates that your kernel is compiled for SMP, not that you actually have SMP hardware.
20:24.10Vegarsparq: I think he was aware of that
20:24.31PlacidThanks sparq, yes I was.
20:24.42PlacidJust highlighted a stupid mistake of mine when compiling this kernel.
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20:24.53PlacidNow wasting time compiling a new kernel :\
20:25.27sparqOh -- heh. I should read more carefully.
20:25.40Placidheh no worries :)
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20:26.47sparqI find it rather odd that my G5 iMac absolutely will not work without SMP enabled, even though it is definitely a uniprocessor machine.
20:26.47balrog-kunSMB kernels run fine on uniprocessor too
20:26.47balrog-kun*SMP
20:27.20Placidbalrog-kun: sure, but this kernel module i'm compiling with m-a doesn't like it.
20:28.03balrog-kunPlacid: i see
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20:36.31pavelmHi, everyone!
20:37.03Vegaryo
20:37.23pavelmq
20:37.58sparqHmm... T2 looks very shiny.
20:38.57sparqtri: I think I will try it out when I replace OpenBSD 3.2 on my Soekris box
20:40.02*** part/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@adsl-69-232-201-39.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
20:40.28balrog-kunpavelm: you could add voice commands in contacts
20:41.26pavelm...I do not think voice works.
20:41.38pH5I think getting rid of the scrollbar and scrolling by dragging the list would be a good first step.
20:42.00pavelm...but we could search contacts for matching names (t9 style) while user is entering number in dialer
20:42.07pavelm...windows actually do that.
20:42.22balrog-kunor gesture commands, with the accelerometers
20:42.28pH5pavelm: isn't the dialer already doing that?
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20:43.25guaquaheuristic searching for the contact and most recent contacts in phone and e-mail are a must
20:43.33guaquaso it'd actually differentiate from your best friend and the business acquintance you met 3 years ago and forgot to delete from your contacts
20:43.37pavelmph5: Hmm, actually my contact list is pretty much empty ...
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20:44.10balrog-kunempty lists are easy to search through
20:44.18balrog-kuneven without stylus
20:44.19pavelmph5: I do not see it mentioned in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Dialer
20:44.50pavelmbalrog :-))
20:46.07pH5pavelm: you are right, I misunderstood. but it should be easy to add to the number autocompletion that is there already.
20:47.38pavelmph5: What is correct way to request that?
20:48.10pavelmph5: I've created http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=591 ... but I do not really care if dialing with finger is contacts based or dialer based, as long as it is usable.
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20:52.23pH5pavelm: i believe that was the correct way. doesn't matter whether it's filed under contacts or dialer, as long as the right people are aware of it :)
20:53.49sparqI always thought the jog wheel was a very nice, intuitive interface for contact lists, but sadly, there is no jog wheel.
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20:54.23pavelmph5: ok.
20:55.01pavelmsparq: :-)... actually I've sees SE P900 with a jog wheel, and it is pretty useless for many contacts, anyway.
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20:55.23pavelmsparq: and the "software emulation" on openmoko sucks even more.
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20:58.59pavelmhi, hrw :-)
20:59.02sparqpavelm: it's the detalils of the implementation
20:59.03hrwhi guys
20:59.04pH5the finger 'wheel' would become a whole lot more useful if you could pull it up into the middle of the lower part of the screen
20:59.16hrwjogdial/jogwhell is usefull thing
20:59.17pH5hi hrw
20:59.31SpeedEvilhi.
21:00.05sparqthe emulated jog wheel is very weird. It took me some time to figure out what it was for.
21:00.33SpeedEvilI wonder if a non-emulated wheel would be possible.
21:01.09SpeedEvilPut 8 contacts under the corner of the case where the virtual one is, put capacitive sensors there.
21:01.16SpeedEvilNo case changes.
21:02.18pavelmwell, actually if we use one edge of screen for scrolling... that should be better than wheel.
21:02.30SpeedEvilMaybe.
21:02.34pavelm...or that "grab list to scroll", google-earth style.
21:02.44sparqpavelm: I was just thinking that. Like a touch pad, but around the edges
21:02.59pH5I'd prefer the latter. Hitting the edge with fingers is hard due to the high bezel.
21:03.16sparqI mean, on the edge of the phone, not the screen
21:04.16sparqand if it ran all the way around, one could do all sorts of fun things with it
21:05.02SpeedEvilIf all the phone surface could detect pressure, and angle of forces touching it that'd be awesome.
21:05.13sparqe.g. -- sliding your thumb scrolls up and down, while sliding your forefinger scrolls side to side.
21:05.13SpeedEvilNot currently possible, but awesome.
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21:05.41BrianHVI went to a conference last night where MS was demoing a tablet PC interface.  they used a circular, iPod-esque gesture to scroll lists.  it looked very interseting.
21:05.45BrianHVinteresting, too.
21:05.53BrianHVlast month.  not last night.
21:06.45penguindoes apple have their scroll thing patented?
21:06.47alorilpenguin: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
21:06.49ElrondIs it me, or is the current openmoko-footer b0rked?
21:07.03penguin=|
21:07.20pavelm_awayHi, elrond!
21:07.26ElrondHi pavelm_away!
21:07.27*** join/#openmoko fix_ (n=fix@cable-87-244-191-178.upc.chello.be)
21:07.43pavelm_away...and thanks for support in "finger contacts" ;-)
21:07.43pavelm_away...do you have python/gtk by chance?
21:08.16Elrondpavelm_away - My machine got to crosscompile glib.
21:08.37Elrondpavelm_away - But I'm now away until sunday.
21:08.45pavelm_awayI'd say openmoko-footer is broken by design -- too small to operate with finger :-(.
21:09.16SpeedEvilI'm just trying to work out where the stick can go.
21:09.54pavelm_awayelrond:  I guess openmoko crosscompiling is not "fire and forget" process?
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21:10.38broedjii dont know what footer is, but does anybody know dasher? what about a dynamic t9 or such system
21:10.39alorilbroedji: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
21:11.00BrianHVthis was the MS reseach project: http://www.patriaudisch.com/projects/inkseine/index.html
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21:13.19BrianHVthey mention the scrolling on p. 7 of the PDF...
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21:16.36BrianHVand it appears to be based on this: http://www.cs.brown.edu/~tm/papers/scrollring04.pdf
21:17.17Elrondpavelm_away - It is fire and forget. But it takes ages on my home desktop.
21:18.55pavelm_awayelrond: Launch gtk compilation and return on sunday :-))))
21:19.40pavelm_awayhttp://www.patriaudisch.com/projects/inkseine/index.html wil not load for me :-(
21:23.02Elrondpavelm_away - Well, my home desktop is not reacable from the internet except via http. ;o)  So I could launch the build, but you wont be able to get the result.
21:23.13Kensanhttp://www.patrickbaudisch.com/projects/inkseine/index.html
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21:25.09pavelm_awaykensan: That works, thanks
21:25.35pavelm_awayElrond: It may still compile on sunday :-)))
21:25.52Elrondpavelm_away - It wont take that long, I'd say.
21:26.06Elrond*uploading bug pictures to flickr*
21:27.55aloril(script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: Accelerometer in next hardware revision?
21:31.33pavelm_awaybrian: some keyboards give up when you press too many keys at once. I had similar problems on some apple keyboard.
21:32.53BrianHVpavelm_away: it's definitely the terminal.  it only happens on this machine, only using putty, and only when I type "kb" too quickly
21:33.40BrianHVI think.  maybe it happens from other ssh programs connected to this host...
21:34.57BrianHVit interprets "kb" as a backspace.  so "ckb" becomes ""
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21:51.14Elrondpavelm_away - http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/532298021/ for the footer-bug. ;o)
21:53.18alphaoneElrond: Is that a current image?
21:54.58alphaoneElrond: It looks like the theme is not being applied to your footer... Can you kill and start openmoko-footer manually over ssh and pastebin the (error)messages?
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21:57.42aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Phone_Number_Field]]
22:01.06Elrondalphaone - Give me half an hour. I need to get a shower and re-update openmoko-footer.
22:01.24alphaoneElrond: okay
22:01.30Elrondalphaone - Might be, that I don't have the current theme installed. The rootfs is a bit oldish. I install on occassion. ;-)
22:01.39alphaone:-)
22:05.29Elrondalphaone - Okay... running from ssh gives only one line of errors:
22:05.32pavelmI see the "footer goes to the top" feature, too.
22:05.37alphaoneElrond: You need at least r2048 of the artwork package
22:05.41Elrond(openmoko-footer:1125): Gdk-WARNING **: gdk_property_get(): length value has wrapped in calculation (did you pass G_MAXLONG?)
22:05.56ElrondBut that one is normal on this phone.
22:06.11*** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@S01060040f41dad58.cg.shawcable.net)
22:06.12Elrondalphaone - Which artwork package?
22:06.20alphaoneHmm, okay. Still no real theme?
22:06.27alphaoneLemme check the name
22:07.11Elrondalphaone - Well, at least the hand-started one is now at the buttom.
22:07.11Elronds/but/bot
22:07.15alphaoneFor architecture all openmoko-theme-standard_0.0+svnnow-r5_2122_all.ipk
22:07.54ElrondOkay.. getting it.
22:08.08alphaoneElrond: I suspect that the footer starts too fast and matchbox might not be far enough to place it appropriately.
22:08.30alphaoneElrond: Before you install
22:09.23alphaoneCan you check if you have /usr/share/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/openmoko-footer
22:09.35ElrondHuh... I already installed...
22:09.45ElrondBut I can check the contents of the old package. :-)
22:10.03alphaoneheh :-)
22:11.01balrog-kunactually i saw this happening in every now and then in all the OpenEmbedded-built matchbox-based distros, maybe except openzaurus and poky
22:11.01alphaoneWell if it is working now it probably was theme related
22:11.01Elrondalphaone - Doesn't look like it's in the old package.
22:11.02alphaonebalrog-kun: Saw what?
22:11.02balrog-kunthe bottom bar on top or the other way, and sometimes the background not getting set
22:11.12balrog-kunalso fonts size changed randomly sometimes
22:11.25alphaonebalrog-kun: So it could well be a matchbox issue...
22:11.36balrog-kunalphaone: yeah
22:11.45balrog-kunpoky didn't have this problem though
22:11.45Elrondalphaone - Okay... footer now working again. :-)
22:11.53pavelmbalrog: I see the "random font size" on openzaurus, too.
22:11.55alphaoneElrond: Great :-)
22:12.00pavelmbalrog: And it annoys me a lot.
22:12.04Elrondalphaone - And even in landscape mode. :-))
22:12.15balrog-kunpavelm: yes, it's a strange thing
22:12.22alphaoneYay, never tried that  :-)
22:12.27alphaoneGood to know
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22:12.45balrog-kunpavelm: most of these distros i've only run in qemu, with the same bug being observed, with mor eor less the same frequency
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22:14.06Elrondalphaone - That is how the footer looked before in landscape.
22:14.10Elrondalphaone - http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/509749982/
22:14.26CoreDump|homehi
22:15.09ElrondHi CoreDump|home
22:15.19alphaoneElrond: whoa. Actually I don't think I changed anything to fix that...
22:17.25balrog-kunhah, i opened Elrond's picture with the footer on top and was trying to scroll the list with the scrollbar in the picture
22:17.40balrog-kun(it didn't work)
22:18.25pavelmbalrog: It would be _way_ worse if it worked ;-).
22:23.32Elrondbalrog-kun - *lol*
22:23.40Elrondalphaone - landscape mode: http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/532254286/
22:25.50alphaoneElrond: Hmm, still looks rather wierd on the right side
22:25.50alphaoneweird even
22:26.42pavelmActually... the microsoft research seems interesting.
22:26.55pavelm...they obviously spent lot of time trying to make pen work.
22:27.04pavelm...unfortunately it is targeted at _big_ devices.
22:28.36Elrondpavelm - What research?
22:30.50pavelmtitle is "InkSeine -- in situ search for active note taking"... it is from their pen computing initiative. Someone posted link here, but I do not have it now.
22:31.32*** part/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@adsl-69-232-201-39.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
22:32.01ElrondAhh, okay.
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22:36.04xirtohhh snap!
22:37.00cdbot2* * OM Bug 595 has been created by alphaone@openmoko.org
22:37.01cdbot2* * openmoko-footer styling breakage in landscape mode
22:37.02cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=595
22:37.41pavelm..actually, it would be nice to find out if apple has some public research for iPhone :-)
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22:41.30Elrondalphaone - *arg* The startup problem still persists. After reboot, it's at the top. .-)
22:43.12alphaoneElrond: Does it reposition itself if you switch to/from landscape mode?
22:44.11Elrondalphaone - Hmm. I'll try that after this reboot (I've put a "sleep 1" in the startup file just before the footer starting.)
22:45.08ElrondThe sleep did not help.
22:45.39Elrondalphaone - Setting to landscape does not help either.
22:46.23Elrond<-- hops away for shower, now for real.
22:46.36alphaonedamn
22:46.41alphaoneElrond: Thanks
22:47.38pavelmalphaone: I believe that header and footer should be merged on the top of screen...
22:47.50pavelmalphaone: ..that would make them big enough to be usable w/o stylus.
22:48.07pavelmalphaone: Is it too late for such a change?
22:48.19alphaonepavelm: Yeah, the footer is quite tiny...
22:48.21pavelmalphaone: finger app closing will need to be solved, somehow...
22:48.51alphaoneI'm not sure, you would have to ask mickeyl about that...
22:49.03stefan_schmidtpavelm: It is solved now. Just press the power button short in a new image will close the topmost window
22:50.04pavelmstefan: I am not sure i like that solution. That will mean it is impossible to switch tasks (etc) with finger only.
22:50.33pavelmstefan: Plus power button is quite hard to press and it is not obvious it serves app-closing purpose.
22:51.25alphaonepavelm: I personally don't find it that difficult to press the footer buttons with my finger but I do see the problem..
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22:51.34stefan_schmidtpavelm: The buttan hard to press problem will be fixed. Closing an app by pressing it makes sense to me, but I see the problem with to many parts of the system are stylus only atm
22:53.57pavelmstefan: Ok... is it too late to improve finger navigation?
22:54.32stefan_schmidtpavelm: It open source, so its never to late. Just send us patches. ;) Just kidding
22:55.00alphaonepavelm: It's never too late, but I suspect that it wont happen before p1 release.
22:55.09stefan_schmidtpavelm: The GUI is still in an unnice state. I'll take you comments into account
22:55.37stefan_schmidtalphaone: Yeah, P1 is unlikely, but that will be without rootfs anyway. :)
22:56.39pavelmstefan: thanks... taking patches... well, I have some ideas, but it looks like gui design was already decided?
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22:57.28pavelm..I gues it is too late for the phase1... but is there chance to do major changes before september consumer release?
22:57.35stefan_schmidtpavelm: There were indeed some decision, but it is never to late to improve things or recognize that some will not work as expected.
22:58.07balrog-kunpavelm: i think major changes will *have* to be implemented or the device won't get released
22:58.09stefan_schmidtpavelm: P2 is indeed the goal for a sane GUI design.
22:58.13alphaonepavelm: At the moment it's a balance between what we'd like to have and what is technically feasible. We're always open for improvement.
22:58.50pavelmstefan: Ok, I guess I'll summarize my ideas, and post it in form of rant to my blog... it is unfortunately not suitable for bugzilla.
22:59.02alphaoneAnd part of the UI experience really needs polishing to say the least
22:59.16happycubei think gta01 needs a very simple but non-ugly design
22:59.21happycubemaybe even a bit retro ;)
22:59.22pavelmalphaone: Yes, I can see the gtk being limiting factor in places :-(
22:59.25stefan_schmidtpavelm: Want about using it form of suggestion instead of a rant? You rant way to often. ;)
22:59.46happycubei could see a design with green vga-type text, oddly enough
23:00.13balrog-kunrant < suggestion < patch
23:00.16pavelmstefan: I'm afraid my english is not good enough for suggestions.. I'll try to make some :-).
23:00.25alphaonepavelm: You're thinking more along ncurses, rightß
23:00.26stefan_schmidthappycube: People who buy P1 are devs. We expect them to be able to update the often if they like to get the improved software. :)
23:00.31happycube:D
23:00.32alphaone:-)
23:00.42happycubei'll snag a gta01 and an 02
23:00.58happycubea lot of what i'm interested in is non-UI anyhow :)
23:01.15pavelmalphaone: Yes, if you want me to rewrite "GUI" into ncurses, I can send patches.
23:01.18SpeedEvilMe too.
23:01.30stefan_schmidthappycube: Framebuffer is fine then.
23:01.52SpeedEvilAs long as there is some sort of browser, I can just write code that does html output, and not have to think about the UI.
23:02.02SpeedEvilAnd firefox will work for the browser at a pinch.
23:02.02pavelmhappy: Actually, doing black on white would be best. Readability is bad at direct sunlight, so you want to use all the contrast you can get.
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23:03.59alphaonepavelm: I'm sure some people would use it.
23:04.24alphaoneSo why not. It will probably not be the standard UI, though.
23:04.47stefan_schmidtbalrog-kun: At some point we also would like to test directFB. It's even possible to use our GTK interface on it.
23:04.59stefan_schmidtbalrog-kun: Some performance benchmarks would be nice
23:05.28SpeedEvilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals - though it's not finished. just saved to wiki in case of crash while I leave for a few mins
23:05.38balrog-kunstefan_schmidt: yeah, i've seen the screenshots of GTK running on directFB being its own window manager, i have no idea how that improves speed
23:05.40pavelmalphaone: Actually I had ncurses interface running at one point. I decided it was too ugly even for me.
23:06.18pavelmalphaone: being able to launch xterm with font readable without magnifying glass would even make it feasible :-).
23:06.21balrog-kunstefan_schmidt: it eliminates X, but GTK is said to be bloated in itself, on the other hand it may be the socket communication with X that makes it slow
23:06.30happycubeit's hard to tell really
23:06.36stefan_schmidtbalrog-kun: Kicking away X and using GTK on the fb directly should speed it up, no?
23:06.40pavelmbalrog: Sockets are fast.
23:06.40balrog-kunyeah, unless we make benchamrks
23:06.41happycubemost devs are spoiled with even p3-level gear ;)
23:06.43alphaonepavelm: Too bad... The touchscreen is not really good for curses input either, I assume
23:06.55happycubeit dosen't have to be curses... just curses-like
23:07.08balrog-kunstefan_schmidt: i think so... but i'm not 100% sure
23:07.14happycubebasic gui engines aren't rocket science ;)
23:07.21pavelmalphaone: No, it is not. but I'm not sure if finger-based touchscreen is suited for gtk either, so :-)
23:07.25stefan_schmidtexactly, without benchmarks it makes no sense to discuss further
23:07.30pavelmhappy: see tui.sf.net.
23:07.39alphaonepavelm: heh :-)
23:08.27balrog-kunpavelm: sockets implies two processes, one waiting for the other to send data in, and a context switch after every chunk of data
23:08.33stefan_schmidtIn long term, not P2, we will also evaluate other toolkits. Perhaps even a mixture. We will see.
23:08.33pavelmstefan: remotely running X apps on neo is pretty snappy.
23:08.56pavelmbalrog: context switches are really fast.
23:09.31xirtyou guys are a bunch of nerds, but I love what you're doing. I'd like to develop software for such a phone. I'll sign up for the announce-list and if I get the opportunity to buy one of these, I will! keep up the good work :)
23:09.35happycube:)
23:09.40happycubei wonder how fast cairo is on arm
23:09.45happycube(or slow)
23:09.53balrog-kunpavelm: hmmm may be that's not an issue... i don't really know
23:10.18pavelmstefan: for nice finger applications... special toolkit may be neccessary.
23:10.50pavelmstefan: you want to use gestures, and you want buttons with big active area, yet not obscuring that much space on screen.
23:11.05pavelmstefan: that means alphablending or something. Does not sound like gtk :-(
23:11.29balrog-kunstefan_schmidt: it's still over half a year, i think that's enough time for someone curious to try porting a basic set of programs to clutter or that other library and post some results
23:11.32stefan_schmidtpavelm: That was one idea. Using GTK for stylus and another one for finger. But for P2 we stay with GTK. No chance to switch now.
23:12.05stefan_schmidtbalrog-kun: Oh, I think we really need this time to get the software in a sane state anyway. :)
23:12.31pavelmstefan: Yes, I see that.
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23:13.01pavelmstefan: Would some improvements still be possible? Like bright red circle around button being pressed, so you can see it reacted despite big finger?
23:13.06cworthhappycube: cairo 1.4 runs quite well on arm, actually.
23:13.10pavelmstefan: Running vibrator motor to ack button press?
23:14.00stefan_schmidtpavelm: Small small changes to have a better finger usage *must* go in. Just no new toolkit
23:14.14balrog-kuni think we can also count on hundreds (maybe tens) of people to hop on the phones and start sending all kinds of patches in, when P1 starts being buyable, this would kindof multiplicate the half year coding time a couple of times
23:14.40stefan_schmidtbalrog-kun: hmm, let us see.
23:14.58stefan_schmidtcworth: cairo 1.4 is the stable branch?
23:15.24cworthstefan_schmidt: Yes, we've released 1.4.0, 1.4.2, 1.4.4, and 1.4.6 already.
23:15.25pavelmstefan: Ok, good. One more thing: Did you notice that on-screen buttons act on _release_ while physical buttons react on _press_? It feels very strange when using calculator. Perhaps finger buttons should react on press?
23:15.34stefan_schmidtcworth: At some point we really move to a newer gtk to catch up
23:15.44cworthstefan_schmidt: indeed
23:15.57alphaonebalrog-kun: That would be true if we only needed half a year of coding to begin with :-)
23:15.58SpeedEvilbalrog-kun: context switches are very fast. As there is very little cache.
23:16.04pavelmbalrog: I'm not sure about ammount of patches. neo is not exactly easy to hack.
23:16.05balrog-kunpavelm: i think that's a GTK convention (perhaps inherited from ms-windows in the '90s)
23:16.42pavelmbalrog: Yes, "act on release" works very well for on-screen buttons. But not when they emulate physical buttons.
23:16.56pavelmbalrog: I was going "oh, that's strange, I feel calculator lagging".
23:17.07stefan_schmidtcworth: OK, I'll pester mickey|lunch from time to time about it. :) Problem is that also a OE sync is on the list. All this besides the normal coding stuff of course
23:17.14balrog-kunpavelm: it's much easier to hack than all the other handheld devices for which volunteers are porting linux as an alternative OS
23:17.24alphaonepavelm: Actually the buttons should act on release..
23:17.33balrog-kuna magnitude of order easier to hack
23:17.43balrog-kunerr, order of magnitude that is
23:17.55alphaonepavelm: At least the power button
23:18.16pavelmbalrog: lets see... porting linux to new hw is sexy. polishing ui is... not so sexy.
23:18.53pavelmalphaone: agreed on power button. But pick a cellphone near you (not neo). Try to type a number. It reacts on _press_ and autorepeats when you hold the key.
23:19.10alphaonepavelm: Ah, I get it
23:19.11pavelmalphaone: Now launch calculator on openmoko. Notice how keys feel strange.
23:19.37stefan_schmidtcworth: No idea if another scm would be speed it up much
23:19.41balrog-kunpavelm: i risk to say that there's more user support at this point already for MokoMakefile and the whole build system than there was for any of the earlier OE based projects like openzaurus, Familiat as well as for GPE, and OPIE
23:19.50Elrondalphaone - Current bootup in portrait mode: http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/532319522/
23:19.54alphaonepavelm: Well, it is a computer, that also has a GSM modem :-)
23:20.07Elrondalphaone - After making footer startup much later. ;)
23:20.13cworthstefan_schmidt: git would have to be faster, yes. But the OE people were very anti-git when I floated the idea.
23:20.29pavelmalphaone: pretty much. but I'm begining to realize that computer + GSM modem != cellphone ;-)
23:21.08*** join/#openmoko LetoTo (n=paul@bofh.xelerance.com)
23:21.09stefan_schmidtcworth: Yes, they decided on mtn. It has it's advantages and disadvantages and in the end it the decision of the OE developer
23:21.23cworth"handheld computer + wifi + free-software GPS" is what I'm looking forward to
23:21.41cworthstefan_schmidt: Sure. I'm just pointing out it's been an actual barrier in practice.
23:21.43pavelmcworth: Actually openmoko is a very nice gps :-)
23:21.49Kensancworth+stefan_schmidt: Linus talking about git - http://youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8
23:22.09alphaoneElrond: So it is a race condition? How much later is the footer starting now?
23:22.41VegarHappy Hearts Organization?
23:22.49stefan_schmidtKensan: Thanks, but I'm on a plan 64bit system. No time to get the flash hacked around the problems. :)
23:23.02Elrondalphaone - (sleep 5 && openmoko-footer) &
23:23.18balrog-kunVegar: handhelds.org, a project much tied to OE
23:23.21Vegarah
23:23.28Vegarhehe
23:23.32VegarI went to hh.org
23:23.58Kensanstefan_schmidt: he actually goes some length to explain why perfomance and speed matter... while also calling everybody using a different scm stupid and ugly ;)
23:24.04balrog-kunhaha, that's a dumb name even for a dating site :p
23:24.16pavelmkensan: That's linus.
23:24.23cworthpavelm: Where are "make the GPS work" instructions?
23:24.50Elrondalphaone - *G* Now the background on the matchbox-desktop-2 does not anymore have the gradient. ;o)
23:25.03Elrondalphaone - (if you look closely on my screenshot, you'll notice that)
23:25.17pavelmIn http://pavelmachek.livejournal.com/ ... but it still timetravels for me.
23:25.18*** join/#openmoko BenC (n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins)
23:25.30stefan_schmidtKensan: So business as always :)
23:25.38pavelmcworth: But I believe one update per 3 seconds should stop time travel.
23:25.53cworthpavelm: Oh, I was failing to find anything in the openmoko wiki. Any reason not to lodge things there?
23:26.20alphaoneElrond: Hmm, right... But that's not my problem :-)
23:26.35Elrondalphaone - I guess, it's some xrdb thingy or so.
23:26.45pavelmcworth: I guess I should place those scripts into cvs somewhere...
23:27.03Elrondgit! ;o)
23:27.15pavelmcworth: Feel free to cut&paste into wiki... you have my permission :-)
23:27.48Kensanstefan_schmidt: pretty much :) It's quite an interesting talk though. He has some insightfull comments about SCM in general IMHO.
23:27.55cworthpavelm: Well, more importantly, I want to know there's some reliable place to go to find updates in the future.
23:28.01ElrondHow many neos are in .at? ;o)
23:28.37cworthpavelm: Your blog is nice and all, but it's going to be hard for me to sift through it in a couple of months to see what the lastest news is, (particularly if others are carrying the torch).
23:29.11pavelmcworth: you can act as maintainer here and I'll send you updates :-)
23:29.29Elrondalphaone - *arg* One of these updates killed openmoko-mainmenu. :-|
23:29.31pavelmcworth: Or I guess I can use tui.sf.net to put scripts there?
23:30.26pavelmcworth: But I'm a lousy maintainer.
23:30.31alphaoneElrond: How so?
23:30.53Elrondalphaone - I don't know. I'm updating openmoko-mainmenu now.
23:30.59pavelmcworth: Or we could keep the scripts in openmoko wiki... but I'm not sure if that's great idea?
23:31.01alphaoneokay..
23:31.07cworthpavelm: If I start touching your scripts, I'll definitely start advertising a git repository with them.
23:31.19cworthpavelm: That's always the first thing I do with any code I touch now.
23:32.00alphaoneElrond: I usually flash a new rootfs with all new packages
23:32.08balrog-kunpavelm: i think a page like GPS usage tips / bt usage tips would be a perfect place
23:32.27Elrond*arg* Still broken. :-(
23:32.45pavelmcworth, balrog: Ok, I guess I should have placed it in openmoko cvs.
23:32.50pavelm...in openmoko wiki.
23:33.17ElrondAnyway. good night people.
23:33.21cworthpavelm: Yeah, I don't really care where the code lives---as long as there's a pointer to it in the wiki.
23:33.28*** part/#openmoko Elrond (i=[386iYU4@irc.fem.tu-ilmenau.de)
23:33.31cworthpavelm: Thanks for what you're doing by the way.
23:33.48pavelmcworth: if you copy&paste wiki pages I'll promise to keep them up to date...?
23:35.39cworthpavelm: Will do when I have time to play with this.
23:36.13cworthI guess the development of a Free Software replacement for the binary-only stuff is current in the Hammerhead_protocol wiki page?
23:36.22pavelmcworth: Ok, drop me a mail when you do. Maybe I'll be faster this time.
23:36.28*** join/#openmoko Kero (n=kero@89.98.218.127)
23:36.32pavelmcworth: Probably yes.
23:37.46bmidgleycworth: with an oss driver it would totally rock to see a working gps on a plane trip :)
23:38.30pavelmbmidgley: You can do that with closed driver, too :-)
23:38.54pavelmbmidgley: Actually I tried that with glider... unfortunately gps lost signal too soon.
23:39.26bmidgleypavelm: in the US a gps that still works above a certain speed is a "munition"
23:40.11pavelmbmidgley: I know. But any plane that goes above that speed is probably a munition, too :-)
23:40.37cworthHmm... wiki search seems quite broken. Search for "gps" yields nothing.
23:40.37SpeedEvilAnd you will _not_ get a glider to do that.
23:40.42SpeedEvil(on earth)
23:40.51SpeedEvilsearch on GPS
23:40.59pavelmcworth: search on agps.
23:41.41*** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=shark@59.176.111.177)
23:41.54cworthagps it is, thanks for the tip.
23:42.27pavelm(perhaps we should put "GPS" somewhere in agps pages :-)
23:44.58cworthpavelm: Ah, some of your scripts are linked to from the Hammerhead_protocol page.
23:45.38pavelmcworth: Those are reverse-engineering scripts, not "use gllin" scripts.
23:45.45cworthpavelm: Yes. I understand.
23:46.52SpeedEvilAdded GPS page redirecting to hardware:agps
23:47.20cworthSpeedEvil: Yeah, and I'm editing it as a new page to have some simple pointers now.
23:49.17cworthpavelm: I was going to wait until I tried things out to help avoid lying---but instead I'll just let you come afterwards and clean up any obvious errors I make.
23:50.08SpeedEvilpointers to where?
23:50.16SpeedEvilthe software pages?
23:50.21pavelmcworth: Thanks.
23:50.27cworthSpeedEvil: Pointers to "how to do GSP things".
23:50.41SpeedEvilah
23:50.53cworthSpeedEvil: The AGPS page is a giant FAQ about what "A" might mean, but nothing about how to just get NMEA data out of the thing.
23:52.00SpeedEvilAh - that is a lack.
23:52.16cworthpavelm: Which image contains the gllin driver if someone wants to copy that out for a P0 device?
23:52.25cworthpavelm: And what's the path and filename?
23:52.25SpeedEvilIt was written back when the GPS gllin thing hasn't been released.
23:52.39pavelmcworth: You need to get that from phase1 device.
23:53.21cworthSpeedEvil: Yeah. Hence the new page I'm writing now.
23:53.25pavelmcworth: /home/root/DM2/gps .
23:53.38pavelmcworth: there may be some other sources, but I do not know about them.
23:54.01cworthpavelm: Well, you pointed in your blog to a directory with images. Is it not contained in the JFFS image there?
23:54.34cworthpavelm: And gllin is a user-space program in that directory?
23:55.03*** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net)
23:55.24alphaonegood night guys
23:55.31alphaoneand gals
23:55.31pavelmcworth: Yes, gllin is in /home/root/DM2/gps/gllin on phase1.
23:55.45pavelmcworth: I'm not aware of http download for gllin.
23:55.50pavelmgood night, alphaone.
23:55.59cworthpavelm: OK, thanks.
23:59.16pavelmcworth: what is the title of the planned page?
23:59.17cworthpavelm: gps
23:59.17pavelmcworth: I should get some sleep now, but I can look at it at the morning...
23:59.17pavelmok, good night!
23:59.17aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[GPS]] [[Talk:Widget_Inheritance_Graph]] [[Accelerometer_Fundamentals]]
23:59.17cworthor maybe GPS I guess.
23:59.17pavelm(and don't kill me for those rant blog entries)

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