IRC log for #openmoko on 20070603

00:05.34*** join/#openmoko Xyrouz (n=Xyrouz@0x3e42caa9.adsl.cybercity.dk)
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00:10.49noiddSpeedEvil: what country do you live in?
00:13.13aloril(script) planet: Holger "zecke" Freyther: Thank you Google http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/06/thank-you-google.html
00:14.53SpeedEvilScotland!
00:16.58*** join/#openmoko quinton (n=quinton@84-45-151-51.no-dns-yet.enta.net)
00:17.35*** topic/#openmoko by KragenSitaker -> OpenMoko Community Lounge <> Free Your Phone <> wiki.openmoko.org <> Anyone can
00:17.44KragenSitakershit
00:17.46KragenSitakersorry
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00:18.21ar2free my phone..  umm?
00:18.27ar2;)
00:19.35DukeOfURLpastebin seems to be stuck
00:20.10*** part/#openmoko dotmef (n=mef@mx1.bitwise.org)
00:20.45*** topic/#openmoko by KragenSitaker -> OpenMoko Community Lounge <> Free Your Phone <> wiki.openmoko.org <> Anyone can buy for $350 starting perhaps any day now <> Mass market in September.
00:22.26DukeOfURLI have NMEA output from my Garmin GPS, but pastebin won't work.
00:22.38DukeOfURLIs there a doc on the NMEA format?
00:23.18SpeedEvilyes
00:23.27SpeedEvilgoogle GPGGA format NMEA
00:23.29SpeedEvillots of docs
00:23.35DukeOfURLthx
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05:03.55empty_mindwhen will "any day" of the topic arrive ?
05:05.11Sup3rkiddoempty_mind,
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05:08.14empty_mindSup3rkiddo: what are you doing here ?
05:08.23Sup3rkiddoempty_mind, exams are over
05:08.37shonuffhello everybody...
05:09.04empty_mindSup3rkiddo: great
05:09.09empty_mindSup3rkiddo: then lets start working ?
05:09.34Sup3rkiddoempty_mind, sure man..i was waiting for you....
05:10.01empty_mindSup3rkiddo: ok, i will upgrade the build today. I think it should be done by tomorrow
05:10.22empty_mindSup3rkiddo: so did you study the libraries ?
05:10.25Sup3rkiddoempty_mind, wokay...mine is building right now...
05:10.42shonuffoops...wrong room
05:10.44Sup3rkiddoempty_mind, will do it today...
05:10.46Sup3rkiddoshonuff, :D
05:11.03shonuff8 )
05:13.06Sup3rkiddoempty_mind, any docs you found..i will brush up with python extensions today
05:18.09empty_mindSup3rkiddo: i think we should devide the project into sections and devide work among oursleves
05:18.19Sup3rkiddoempty_mind, right
05:19.15empty_mindSup3rkiddo: i can think of these sections/phases right now 1) improving python runtime to suit 200MHz processor, 2) bindings for moko libs, 3) looking into pygtk
05:19.48Sup3rkiddoempty_mind, i will look into pygtk stuff...i do a bit of gtk in C, and maybe libs as we;;
05:19.51Sup3rkiddo*well
05:20.14empty_mindSup3rkiddo: cool then i will look into building python runtime for openmoko
05:20.35Sup3rkiddoempty_mind, righto
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05:36.12Mandarinocounter
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06:19.05CIA-24openmoko: 03laforge * r2135 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/usock.c: first implementation (ugly) of operator name query
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07:05.47aloril2SpeedEvil: you and others being blocked by "pipa used this IP": maybe 'this IP'=='some openmoko proxy' ? (IIRC some proxy configuration was added, also I think server shows 'wrong' IP (or I'm mixing it with something else)
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08:06.58kiney_counter
08:06.58alorilcounter not yet updated, see laforge's busy entry at http://planet.openmoko.org P1: 2 days 13:56:31 (2.581 +-2.6 days) (1387;225)
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08:31.29buzcounter
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08:31.32buzah
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09:08.14PBeckhey :)
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09:47.09buzthe gpu
09:48.36sparqI can think of lots and lots of hardware thingies that would be worth delaying the release, but given how hush-hush they are, I'm guessing it is legal good news.
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09:48.45koenI'm curious about the hxd8
09:49.21guaquathe new cpu (or is it only gpu) thingie looks good
09:49.29guaquavideo decoding and audio aswell
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09:49.37sparqHmm... Maybe they are negotiating a LGPL firmware for the GSM modem? ^_^
09:50.12buzi would rather see them use sirf isntead of hammerheard
09:50.20sparqI bet if it were just neato new hardware, LaF0rge would just announce what's going on
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09:51.34buzyou simply cant open source that
09:51.44buzyou couldnt legally run gsm modems with patched firmware
09:51.58sparqbuz: that depends on the hardware implementation
09:52.39buzwell if hardware does everything thats problematical, the open firmware probably wont help you very much
09:52.46sparqbuz: you can't sell GSM devices that can be easily modified to do illegal things, like eavesdrop on other people's calls.
09:53.08sparqbuz: Sure it will -- it will make distributing releases way, way easier. ^_^
09:53.19buzlike why?
09:53.20sparq(legally speaking)
09:53.26buzthe firmware lives in the modem itself
09:53.33buza normal release never ever touches that
09:54.39buz~lart ati
09:54.40aptfollow's ati with a gauntlet and ... scratch ... HUMILIATION
09:54.56buzthis drivers are unbearable
09:55.18mmpaloril: counter
09:55.19alorilcounter not yet updated, see laforge's busy entry at http://planet.openmoko.org P1: 2 days 13:02:20 (2.543 +-2.5 days) (1389;226)
09:55.27buzi was told i wouldnt get aiglx
09:55.36buzwhich is true, but nobody warned me that video wouldnt work either
09:55.47mmpbuz: what GPU?
09:55.52buzX1400
09:57.05buznow i must find some windows user
09:57.22buzand then buy the same laptop, but with intel (and ship it around half the world)
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09:59.25mmpbuz: hmm, I can remember that there was something which had to be enabled in xorg.conf in order to get functioning X video overlay with ATI drivers..
09:59.33buzyeah
09:59.37buzwith some specific releases
09:59.48buzwhich then again have other bugs or dont work with your current kernel
10:00.13mmp:(
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10:03.02buzX300 has open source drivers that sort of work
10:03.21buznow i have a 1200EUR device running vista
10:03.27buzwhich is kinda useless really
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10:20.25buzmicard looks like a neat standard
10:21.29Bishany news about OM?
10:21.58SpeedEvilaloril2: not using proxy herre.
10:21.59SpeedEvilyes
10:22.01SpeedEvilthere is.
10:22.10SpeedEvil1K have been made, adn are in QA
10:25.46buzsays couple of hundred in the blog post?
10:25.53SpeedEviloops
10:26.01buzThe first generation GTA02 prototypes have also showed up at FIC in Taiwan. More news on that at some later point :)
10:26.07buzTHAT however is a goog thing
10:26.11buzwishful thinking ;)
10:26.19SpeedEvilGTA02 = p1+?
10:26.23buzi think so
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11:39.00buzhttp://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2190391319.html that might make a neat neo companion
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11:58.45rwhitbybuz: internal photos of the Zipit: http://www.nslu2-linux.org/gallery/zipit
11:58.53rwhitby[g2] has one
12:00.16Hopscotchis it available outside the us?
12:02.13Hopscotchhmmm
12:02.18Hopscotchi looked on ebay.de...
12:02.43Hopscotchzero hits...
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12:05.45SpeedEvilodd
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12:08.37SpeedEvilCouple sold a couple of weeks ago in US
12:08.40SpeedEvilnot a hot item
12:13.09Hopscotchhmmm
12:14.02dcordesis there already a decision about the wifi thing? what chipset will be used?
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12:18.07kito_atheros
12:18.17guaquadcordes: atheros chip. wiki knows. no idea which hardware is it going to be in though..
12:20.35ewonwoo, atheros
12:20.43ewonyou can do packet injection with atheros :)
12:26.04stefan_schmidtpH5: Sorry for saturday. I was in the CCCB until 5:00 and was a bit braindead and busy on saturday.
12:27.08pH5stefan_schmidt: never mind, me too (except for the CCCB and 5:00 part) :)
12:27.22stefan_schmidtpH5: heh
12:30.46kiney_counter
12:30.46alorilcounter not yet updated, see laforge's busy entry at http://planet.openmoko.org P1: 2 days 11:44:37 (2.489 +-2.5 days) (1390;226)
12:31.57CoreDump|homemorning
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12:46.46ElrondpH5, stefan_schmidt - I now start to get bytes from the gps using python. (python is just so much easier when it comes to prototyping ideas on the protocol)
12:47.48SpeedEvil:)
12:48.16pH5Elrond: very good :) have you seen my cold2-ch01.txt and cold2-cmd00-stat.txt in http://linuxtogo.org/~ph5/tmp/gllin ?
12:49.10ElrondpH5 - I have seen a few files there, but didn't yet look too closely at all of them. I played with decode.sh and cold2.log.gz
12:49.15pH5I lack a bit of GPS knowledge to do a better analysis than that :(
12:50.01ElrondI already have some ideas, what's going on there.
12:50.06ElrondBut only _very_ basic.
12:50.42ElrondI need to buy/lend/acquire a long usb cable to get the neo next to a window ;o)
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12:51.18pH5Heh :)
12:52.05stefan_schmidtElrond: Still the cable problem? Really hard one. :)
12:52.20SpeedEvilElrond: or a GPS antenna.
12:52.41ElrondSpeedEvil - Hmm, the connector for the gps isn't outside, right?
12:52.54SpeedEvilI thought it was on the side.
12:52.56stefan_schmidtElrond: That the only one outside
12:53.04SpeedEvilThe GSM connector being next to the battery
12:53.11stefan_schmidtexactly
12:53.18CIA-24openmoko: 03mickey * r2136 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/src/buttonactions.c: openmoko-panel-mainmenu: kill topmost window on short press of power button
12:53.31ElrondHuh, next to the battery?!
12:53.39SpeedEvilOnt he back
12:53.47SpeedEvilopen the back.
12:53.55ElrondI saw a hole next to one screw on the back.
12:53.58SpeedEvilThen look for a hole above the battery
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12:54.10pH5Elrond: I'd love to understand the sat locking mechanism (those 00, 05, 0A / 10, 23, 9D packets) first.
12:54.11SpeedEvilthe connector is under the hole.
12:54.33pH5So if you have any speculations about those packets...
12:54.38SpeedEvilWell...
12:55.11SpeedEvilLog of a few hundred locks, with analysis of the bytes sent/recieved might at least give you the range of data
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12:55.38SpeedEvilA fake GPS satellite would also be handy.
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12:55.49guaqua:D
12:55.59SpeedEvilIt's not _that_ hard to make.
12:56.04SpeedEvilBut not trivial.
12:56.53guaquai was just contemplating with the idea of having your own gps satellite with you at all times ;)
12:57.27guaquaor is it at the idea when i use the word contemplate?
12:57.50Sufflopecounter
12:57.50alorilcounter not yet updated, see laforge's busy entry at http://planet.openmoko.org P1: 2 days 11:31:04 (2.480 +-2.5 days) (1391;226)
12:58.25guaquano preposition i assume
12:58.51ElrondSpeedEvil - http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=412600520&size=l&context=set-72157594573486523  You mean the white thingy at the right buttom, just above the speaker?
12:59.35ElrondpH5 - I wonder, if one can break anything by sending random bytes to the gps chip. ;o)
13:00.11SpeedEvilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973
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13:00.19SpeedEvilElrond
13:00.26SpeedEvilsearch on gsm
13:00.36ElrondOkay... *doing*
13:02.38mickey|berlinyay
13:03.32ElrondAhhh. So yes, it's the white thingy on koen's pic... and the thing Rince noticed yesterday. ;-)
13:04.05ElrondHi mickey|berlin ! :-)
13:04.33ElrondAhh, BTW: GPN yesterday was nice. A few people were playing with the neo. ;-)
13:04.55*** join/#openmoko theholyduck (n=theholyd@ti541210a080-2524.bb.online.no)
13:05.09pH5hi mickey|berlin, just wanted to say that I liked that linuxtag talk.
13:05.45stefan_schmidthttp://sicherheitsschwankung.de/gallery/v/openmoko/IMG_8663.JPG.html
13:05.47mickey|berlinthanks very much :(
13:05.49mickey|berlinargh
13:05.50mickey|berlin:)
13:05.57mickey|berlinheh
13:06.40koengta02 looks nice
13:06.57mickey|berlinyeah
13:07.03stefan_schmidtkoen: we hope so. Not making the same mistakes again.:)
13:07.27koenlike using UPS to deliver the phones ;)
13:07.32pH5heh
13:07.40ElrondGTA02?
13:08.00koenElrond: http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/gallery/v/openmoko/IMG_8662-slide.JPG.html
13:08.04Elrond... is GTA02's gsm module now connected to the PMU, so that we have full control over the GSM?
13:08.45stefan_schmidtElrond: yes
13:09.03stefan_schmidtElrond: We can fully shutdown GSM
13:09.22mickey|berlinthat, and we can finally measure the current
13:09.31mickey|berlinno more uncontrolled sucking from the battery
13:09.45mickey|berlinat least we know how much pwr we consume then
13:09.47ElrondAhh, good.
13:10.00ElrondAny info on prices yet?
13:10.18mickey|berlinno idea
13:10.25CoreDump|homeOMG
13:10.36CoreDump|homegta02 looks bloody awsome
13:11.36guaquawhat's beschleunigungssensor?
13:11.42mickey|berlinaccellerometer
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13:12.49g8cordesCoreDump|home, gta2? is that the next revision?
13:12.58stefan_schmidtg8cordes: P2
13:13.14CoreDump|homeg8cordes: check the URL from above
13:13.47g8cordesCoreDump|home, ok. any gspca news :D ?
13:14.07CoreDump|homenot to my knowledge
13:14.25g8cordesdid you try to test it with something else but mplayer?
13:15.07guaquahmm
13:15.45guaquagta-02 is P2, in other words the mass market model that was planned to be released in september?
13:16.30pH5yes
13:16.43*** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=orion@59.176.111.177)
13:16.49empty_mindSup3rkiddo,
13:16.57guaquagta-01 is the one they've made 1k of?
13:17.17empty_mind1K of what ?
13:17.21guaquaphones
13:17.22empty_mind1k units ?
13:17.25guaquayes
13:17.32empty_mindoops
13:17.36ElrondI thought 500?
13:17.39empty_mindwith wifi or without ?
13:17.51guaquaElrond: whatever they just did :)
13:17.51Elrondempty_mind - GTA01 == no wifi, GTA02 == wifi
13:17.54empty_mindthen it should be cheaper than $350
13:18.02empty_mindok
13:18.14empty_mindand gta02 is the one which is going to hit mass market ?
13:18.25Elrondempty_mind - AFAIK, yes.
13:18.40empty_mindgrrr... sales guys
13:18.47guaquai wonder what one could do with accelometers
13:19.08empty_mindand they wil not give us any discount on gta02 ?
13:19.11TronicGPS (SiRFStar3) would be nice.
13:19.23empty_mindi mean the guys who buy gta01
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13:19.44Elrondempty_mind - I think, there was some discount planned.
13:19.52empty_mindTronic, if they give SirfStar3, then i would flydown to taiwan to make mass purchase
13:20.04ElrondTronic - Well, I guess, we're currently locked to this hammerhead thing.
13:20.14empty_mindi hope they reduce the price for gta01 since theya re producing in volume now
13:20.20*** join/#openmoko mzb (n=ubernut@ppp108-88.static.internode.on.net)
13:20.40SpeedEvilSirf is actually possibly less well performing than a good driver.
13:20.40Elrondempty_mind - I doubt it. The price was planned for the mass produced thingy.
13:20.53SpeedEvilFor the existing GPS
13:21.06empty_mindSpeedEvil, explain
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13:21.26SpeedEvilThe hammerhead can lock in very, very short periods.
13:21.37SpeedEvilAs it's got a massively parallel correlator in it.
13:21.46ewonI presume this is due to the assisted nature?
13:21.55SpeedEvilNo, nothing to do with it.
13:21.56ewonI thought the Sirf-III was the fastest gun in the west :)
13:21.58*** join/#openmoko sudharsh_ (n=sudharsh@59.92.32.28)
13:22.12Elrondewon - Just ignore assistance. That's basicly marketing hype.
13:22.21SpeedEvilThe hammerhead is specced to 1s position of 5m
13:22.37empty_mindoh you meant hammerhead chipset
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13:23.15ElrondSpeedEvil - I still doubt that. To calc a position, you need the ephemeris. So the 1s is a non-cold lock, right?
13:23.34SpeedEvilYou need the ephemeris, yes.
13:24.03SpeedEvilThat just means you've got to have either downloaded the couple of K of data from the internet, or have had 12 min of GPS on in the last few weeks.
13:24.34Elrond12 min gives you the almanac.
13:24.37SpeedEvilyeah.
13:24.48ElrondI think, one min gives you the ephemeris, which is enough for short time.
13:24.54SpeedEvil30s
13:25.04*** join/#openmoko quitte (n=quitte@stgt-d9bea2b4.pool.mediaWays.net)
13:25.34SpeedEvil1s is warmish, yes.
13:25.36*** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=orion@59.176.111.177)
13:25.50ElrondSpeedEvil - Do you know by accident, if every satelite sends the _full_ ephemeris (for all sats), or just for its own orbit?
13:26.05SpeedEvilAs I understand it, all send all.
13:26.10empty_minddoes choice of sattelite/chipset make any difference according to your location in globe ?
13:26.15SpeedEvilerr - I mean almanac
13:26.26empty_mindi mean will sirf perform better in west than in east
13:26.28SpeedEvilempty_mind: not simply
13:26.38SpeedEvilthere is no west or east
13:26.44SpeedEvilnorth and south - somewhat
13:26.46ElrondSpeedEvil - Yeah, every sat sends the whole almanac. I wonder for the ephemeris.
13:26.48empty_mindok
13:26.59empty_mindso me being in antractica will make a difference
13:27.16empty_mindbut me being anywhere on equator will not
13:27.40SpeedEvilIn antarctica, the satellites will all be low in the sky
13:27.42Elrondempty_mind - Right.
13:27.46SpeedEviland easily obscured by trees
13:27.59ewonin antarctica?
13:28.02pH5yeah, damn trees in antarctica
13:28.06ewon:)
13:28.07empty_mindok, so i need to cut trees in antartica before using gps :-)
13:28.10SpeedEvils/trees/polar bears.
13:28.18pH5penguins!
13:28.24SpeedEvilYeti!
13:28.43guaquayeti is himalaya, let's keep to the facts ;)
13:29.21ElrondUse the teleporter, which is included in gta03 ;o)
13:29.39*** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com)
13:30.51Elrondroot@phone:~/sounds$ madplay notify_doorbell.mp3
13:30.51ElrondHmm, that one sounds nice. :-)
13:30.52empty_mindoh and i thought gta03 only sports a faster processor :-0
13:31.44Shoragangta02 already has a faster processor (400MHz)
13:32.09xl0Is gta02 as big as 01?
13:32.29empty_mindShoragan, really, i thought that was in gta02 or as told by Sean in his presentation in bangalore
13:32.51*** join/#openmoko drath_ (i=vmaster@p5b07fdc4.dip.t-dialin.net)
13:33.05empty_minds/gta03/gta02
13:33.30empty_mindsean told us that 400Mhz processor wil be introduced next year
13:33.41ElrondALL: My sentence about GTA03 was fun!
13:34.27stefan_schmidtxl0: Yes, same case
13:34.55empty_mindhow can someone sponsor a device for me ?
13:35.02Shoraganhttp://sicherheitsschwankung.de/gallery/v/openmoko/IMG_8662-slide.JPG.html
13:35.14Shoraganthis is from mickeys talk at linuxtag
13:36.01mjrempty_mind, anyone can, if you talk them into giving you $350
13:36.19empty_mindwow
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13:37.07Vegaroh
13:37.10mjrwhat's "Beschleunigungssensoren"? Orientation sensor?
13:37.24Vegarthat bottom list, is that P2?
13:37.25xl0After looking at some photos, it seems like the thing is fun to hack, but too big to use as a phone. ;)
13:37.47mjrxl0, piffles
13:37.52empty_mindxl0, nope, i have seen the real device, it aint that big
13:37.58Shoraganmjr, i've translated it in the comments
13:38.07Elrondmjr - accelarometer.
13:38.15empty_mindxl0, it is as big as any device
13:38.17xl0But yes, you are right, you can't use it as a phone yet, so the size is no real problem ;)
13:38.20mjrElrond, righto
13:38.29KensanAre those slides available for download somewhere?
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13:40.38ElrondpH5 - Yeah, rugged, lower resolution display. :-)
13:40.48xl0empty_mind: I agree that there are devices as big, and even bigger than this one, but still it would be nice if it could be smaller.
13:40.50Elrond3 weeks standby ;o)
13:41.10Rincere
13:41.18Elrondxl0 - It can't be smaller with a touchscreen.
13:41.30empty_mindxl0, well it is not as big as most of the smart phones
13:42.01dottedmagElrond: yes, especially both handles contain parts of touchscreen ;)
13:42.09empty_mindxl0, atlast it happens to be a touchscreen so you obviously need a big screen, a smaller phone will compromise functionality
13:42.53empty_mindxl0, it is smaller than devices like ipaq or nokia communicator but still usefull
13:42.58mjrxl0, you're just compensating for your larger than usual member by wanting a still smaller phone; the size is quite okay in real life
13:43.22empty_mindxl0, if you have seen motorola A768i , its almost that big, but ahs a bigger lcd
13:44.15dottedmagElrond: isn't it possible to get such ratio of touchscreen/whole are, say, in iPaq 1940?
13:45.23empty_mindhey, nobody proposed an fm tuner in neo1973 ?
13:45.32xl0Ok, maybe the screen limits it, but it could be slimmer, and the screen does not take all the space anyway, there is a lot to cut from the top and bottom...
13:45.44Elronddottedmag - I never saw an ipaq, so no idea.
13:45.53dottedmags/are/area/
13:45.54dottedmagElrond: http://www.ixbt.com/portopc/pda/hp/1940/19401.jpg
13:46.18empty_mindxl0, yes it could be slimmer and if they start shipping expensive slim batteries then it would be definately slimer
13:47.00Elronddottedmag - Yeah, maybe.
13:47.36ElrondRight. But $350 is already a lot of money for a toy. ;-)
13:47.42Elrond... or for "just a phone" ;)
13:47.51mickey|berlinfm tuner? nah, http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/02/07/fed-up-with-legacy-radio/
13:48.12RinceElrond: ask the PS3-owner about princes ;)
13:48.12xl0dottedmag: Hi. Any news about getting the phone here in Russia?
13:48.18dottedmagxl0: nope
13:48.29ElrondRince - Huh?!
13:48.33empty_mindmickey|berlin,
13:48.54dottedmagxl0: I'd probably ask somebody in Germany/USA to bring it here.
13:49.31empty_mindmickey|berlin, local fm radio stations are still very popular in asia
13:49.50RinceElrond: Playstation 3 is 599¤. Just for a toy
13:50.01dottedmagxl0: anyway I will wait for gta02 ;)
13:50.24ElrondRince - Ahh. ;-)
13:50.29xl0dottedmag: And miss all the fun? ;)
13:50.33empty_minddottedmag, me too, unless they provide heavy discount to gta01 owners
13:50.36dottedmagKensan:
13:50.38ElrondRince - Well, I don't buy such things. ;-)
13:50.40dottedmagxl0: no wifi - no fun ;)
13:52.48Shoragan350$ is not much for an unsubsidized phone with these specs
13:54.29*** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@cpc2-bagu2-0-0-cust912.bagu.cable.ntl.com)
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13:57.24SpeedEvilempty_mind: I'm fairly sure it's mentioned in wishlist:hardware
13:58.04guaquaempty_mind: us and european channels also use different frequencies
13:58.18SpeedEvilNot really
13:58.20guaquayou might have to get different chips for the phones
13:58.26SpeedEvilit's just a channel spacing thing for FM
13:58.36guaquaand that can be a problem
13:58.39SpeedEviland all the chipsets can do it.
13:58.51guaquathe same devices just don't work in most cases :(
13:59.51empty_mindSpeedEvil, wishlist mentions fm tranmitter not receiver
13:59.55*** join/#openmoko daniel_bergamini (n=danieber@70-41-167-151.cust.wildblue.net)
14:00.54guaquathe feature list looks pretty nice already
14:01.12SpeedEvilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List_-_Hardware#TV.2Fradio_receiver
14:01.20empty_mindi would love FIC to manufacture a bluetooth keyboard
14:01.31*** join/#openmoko ruoso (n=ruoso@201009068124.user.veloxzone.com.br)
14:01.32SpeedEvilWhy?
14:01.35SpeedEvilthere are lots
14:01.49empty_mindwill they work with neo?
14:01.52SpeedEvilSure.
14:01.52g8cordesempty_mind, sure
14:01.54mickey|berlinsure
14:01.55ewonsurely such a beast exists already
14:01.56g8cordessure
14:01.56mickey|berlinBT HID
14:02.36guaquais someone using bt keyboard with neo?
14:02.59guaquaif so, how does it feel...is it fast to type etc?
14:03.09guaquathinking about using experience
14:04.06g8cordesguaqua, what do you mean by fast typing?
14:05.00*** join/#openmoko [fhs]unique (n=chatzill@Xc1ef.x.pppool.de)
14:05.12[fhs]unique#monodevelop
14:05.24[fhs]uniquesry wrong window
14:06.10guaquag8cordes: as in is there a delay after a keypress and is it hard to set up and so on
14:06.31g8cordesit should be as quick as a normal keyboard
14:06.54g8cordesand I don't think it should be any hard to set it up
14:07.04g8cordessince it is just a normal bt hid device
14:07.16*** join/#openmoko [fhs]unique (n=chatzill@Xc1ef.x.pppool.de)
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14:45.13aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Main_Page/it]]
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14:46.07CIA-24openmoko: 03mickey * r2137 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/src/openmoko-panel-mainmenu.c: openmoko-panel-mainmenu: temp. hack to play a startup sound
14:47.00wansti"hack to play a startup sound" <-- yay :-D
14:48.02CIA-24openmoko: 03mickey * r2138 10/trunk/oe/packages/alsa/ (alsa-state_svn.bb files/stereoout.state): oe/alsa: bump default stereoout volume
14:50.25SrRaven!counter
14:50.31SrRaven-counter
14:50.36SrRavenmeh
14:50.37CoreDump|homeg8cordes: no setup needed at all. A BT "keyboard" is working out-of-the-box w/ neo here
14:50.49CoreDump|homecounter
14:50.49alorilcounter not yet updated, see laforge's busy entry at http://planet.openmoko.org P1: 2 days 10:34:35 (2.441 +-2.4 days) (1392;227)
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14:55.39CIA-24openmoko: 03mickey * r2139 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/src/openmoko-panel-mainmenu.c: openmoko-panel-mainmenu: remove startup sound. will be included in session startup script
14:59.04CIA-24openmoko: 03mickey * r2140 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-base/ (files/session openmoko-session_svn.bb): oe/openmoko-base: configure soundcard and play startup sound from /etc/matchbox/session
15:00.33CIA-24openmoko: 03mickey * r2141 10/trunk/oe/packages/gsm/ (files/gsmd libgsmd_svn.bb): oe/gsm: remove configuring soundcard from gsm script
15:03.24*** join/#openmoko elcarni (n=elcarni@pD9E8B5C9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
15:03.51elcarnihello
15:08.04buzPhase 2 (GTA-02) will feature:
15:08.04buz-a 2D/3D-Graphics Accelerator
15:08.04buz-256MByte of Flash Memory
15:08.04buz-WiFi
15:08.04buz-updated battery: 1700mAh
15:08.06buzwooooot
15:08.16buz2 Accelerometers. F**k yeah. Looking forward to it.
15:08.41buz2 Accelerometers. F**k yeah. Looking forward to it.
15:08.43buzoopos
15:08.45buzwrong buffer
15:08.52buzhttp://sicherheitsschwankung.de/gallery/v/openmoko/IMG_8662-slide.JPG.html
15:09.37CoreDump|homeheh
15:10.02buzso p2 uses calypso too?
15:10.13buzor we dont know?
15:10.20xl0Why do we need two accelerometers? (Actually, why do we need any at all?)
15:10.33buzbecause accelerometers are the new $thing
15:10.43xl0orly?
15:10.49buzwitness wii, iphone
15:10.58xl0;)
15:11.07buzunless they come up with some bad ass discount, i'm so gonna wait
15:11.25wanstii wanna play neverball on my neo :-P
15:11.41buzthink about pong
15:12.08buzdidnt know about neverball but that looks sweet
15:12.20buzcould work
15:12.30wanstiheh :-)
15:12.53mjrmy coworker had neverball controlled by his thinkpad's tilt sensor
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15:13.24wanstimjr: i think alphaone wrote the code for that :-)
15:13.46mjryah, dunno, he didn't write the code himself
15:14.18bazecool, p2 has accelerometers?
15:14.30buzmjr: neat
15:14.33buzi might try that
15:14.42buz(if i can somehow get the hd to shutdown permanently)
15:16.17elcarniexcuse me, got a question, is it possible to emulate gta-02 with qemu?
15:16.18alorilelcarni: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
15:19.29Shoraganelcarni, the hardware is not very different
15:19.34CIA-24openmoko: 03stefan * r2142 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-base/files/session:
15:19.34CIA-24openmoko: * Move startup sound to a later position. Makes no sense to hear the sound while
15:19.34CIA-24openmoko:  still on X start.
15:20.10Shoraganand there is no qemu implementation of the wiki or 2d/3d accelerator
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15:20.55elcarnimore precisely: can i just edit the first line of build/conf/local.conf: MACHINE = "fic-gta01" to "fic-gta02"
15:22.01Shoraganelcarni, what for? there is no software specific for 02 yet
15:23.02elcarnioh alright then
15:23.15aloril2SpeedEvil: I meant proxy at openmoko side to speed up access
15:25.34CIA-24openmoko: 03wansti * r2143 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/sounds/ (7 files): Added two very simple, standard ringtones
15:27.27wanstithe first one is really just that standard ringtone melody you hear everywhere... i just wonder whether someone copyrighted that...
15:27.59mjrprobably
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15:29.15wanstiso you think i should remove it?
15:29.53buzSCNR
15:29.58mjrI think one should err on the side of caution, if one doesn't know for sure
15:30.58wanstiyeah you're right... wouldn't want to get in trouble over a series of four notes :-)
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15:32.59CIA-24openmoko: 03wansti * r2144 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/sounds/ (4 files): Removed simple ringtone #1 (might be copyrighted)
15:34.10DukeOfURLis "Beschleunigungssensoren" an accelerometer?
15:34.21guaquayes
15:34.27DukeOfURLlovely
15:35.13jeddy3when is gta-02, the same as p2, or next-gen neo?
15:35.21DukeOfURLwas anything said about a camera?
15:35.30mjrshould've really guessed from the 2/3D Beschleuniger :)
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15:35.46guaquamjr: yeah :)
15:35.49DukeOfURLgraphics accelerator?
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15:36.05mjrjeddy3, p2
15:36.34jeddy3mjr, ok, and when is that? :)
15:36.49jeddy3mass-market?
15:37.36Shoraganjeddy3, when it's done :)
15:37.46guaquamjr: which phase are you thinking of getting?
15:37.50guaquaor device?
15:38.05jeddy3Shoragan, yes ofcourse, but when is it planned?
15:39.11Shoraganthe official word is September (see topic)
15:39.18mjrI was going to get in on the ground floor with p1 and upgrading when p2 hardware is available, and probably still will
15:39.21SpeedEvilThe word is old.
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15:40.18jeddy3Shoragan, ok thanks
15:40.18Shoraganyes, but they have not announced a new roadmap yet
15:41.26Shoraganit also depends on how far we get with the software when more hackers have a p1
15:42.40buzi think it's pretty weird to release information like they did this time
15:43.27*** join/#openmoko mwester (n=mwester@nslu2-linux/mwester)
15:44.04*** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@20.Red-83-57-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net)
15:44.05Shoraganbuz, why weird?
15:49.11SpeedEvilleaks, not actual information.
15:49.43SpeedEvilA half-a-page email to the announce list, for example.
15:53.35*** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=orion@59.176.111.177)
15:54.42mjrhmm, wouldn't call it a leak as such if it was presented at LinuxTag, but yeah
15:54.59SpeedEvilOh - I diddn't see that it was.
15:55.13mjrI assumed as much from the slide
15:55.22mjrsince it said "LinuxTag 07"
15:55.28mjrdon't know for sure
15:56.47miip_slide? where? :)
15:57.24mjrthat slide: http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/gallery/v/openmoko/IMG_8662-slide.JPG.html
15:57.30miip_thx
15:58.20DukeOfURLMy Garmin GPS receiver isn't registering any satellites.  Is anyone else having problems with GPS?  Same thing happened on 9/11.
16:00.06SpeedEvilworks for me
16:00.08SpeedEvil(uk)
16:00.17DukeOfURLhmmm
16:00.23SpeedEvilYou may be having a local interference problem
16:00.32DukeOfURLprolly
16:00.35SpeedEvilgoogle gps notam
16:00.52SpeedEvilThe amount of energy you need to black out GPS over a small area is small.
16:01.08SpeedEvilA watt gets you 50Km radius IIRC.
16:01.24parag0nreally? hmm >:)
16:02.03SpeedEvilThe transmitters are 50W
16:02.19SpeedEvilThe coding gain is 1024 - for an equivalent of 50Kw.
16:02.29SpeedEvilThis is to cover an entire hemisphere.
16:03.22*** join/#openmoko MacNorth (n=daijobu@168-103-68-55.hlrn.qwest.net)
16:04.40*** join/#openmoko neostrider (n=daniel@cm-tvcidade-nri-C8B1D654.dynamic.brdterra.com.br)
16:08.41SpeedEvilAh - found old sums.
16:09.21SpeedEvilA meaconer, run off a large memory card playing back simulated satellite signals, with 3W gives you 20-60Km radius.
16:17.14DukeOfURLThis interference would not be good while flying an ILS approach to 50' minimums...
16:18.01*** join/#openmoko nm (n=nm@222.252.73.129)
16:24.04neostriderso, my friends...the neo is going to be released on retail stores?
16:24.18SpeedEvilEventually.
16:24.22SpeedEvilIdeally.
16:24.22SpeedEvilMaybe.
16:24.30SpeedEvilWhen?
16:24.45SpeedEvilIf?
16:25.10neostriderwill be a neo? =-P
16:25.15neostriderjust kidding
16:25.26neostriderI think the openmoko and great potencial...
16:25.31SpeedEvilWith the initial January-Sep dev time.
16:26.08SpeedEvilI think it was quite likely - as come 3 months before sep - when purchasing decisions may be made - there will be something close to a usable phone to show execs.
16:26.17SpeedEvilBut, now.
16:26.45parag0ni assume it'll be released january 08
16:26.49SpeedEvilSoftware is going to be a real stretch to get ready, and it's not likely to be in a state where a release could be considered much before that release.
16:26.52neostrider(how about pricing? specially on canada?)
16:26.57SpeedEvilWho knows.
16:27.14SpeedEvil2000l of maple syrup?
16:27.21neostriderstate os software, for me, its not a issue...people actually enjoy Windows!
16:27.27neostriderhahhaha
16:27.30neostridergreat!
16:27.55SpeedEvilState of software is important for people making decisions to stock in their shops.
16:28.02SpeedEvilWith users that will come back to them.
16:28.14neostriderif is there a way of reflash, state of software is not a problem (unless its so unrealible that it bricks the device after a week usage)
16:28.35neostriderwell
16:28.36neostriderBRB
16:28.42neostriderlunch time here in Brazil
16:28.44*** join/#openmoko Vitaly (n=vox@unaffiliated/vitaly)
16:32.06mmphmm, he did not seem to consider that this is phone, which _has_ to work for some people, not just PC, which tends to "break itself" time to time...
16:32.29SpeedEvilSome phones are regrettably of the second sort.
16:32.56mmpOk, let's take it from physicist point of view and create a model of "ideal mobile phone" :)
16:33.26SpeedEvilSpherical of course.
16:33.39mmp(that means, it has all properties what mobile should have, it just doesn't exist in reality:)
16:35.10mmpBut any way, I guess it will be really hard work which will take place during summer on openmoko software.
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16:45.06aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]]
16:47.14*** join/#openmoko hena (i=hena@hack.fi)
16:47.20henahi
16:51.18*** join/#openmoko Moo^^ (n=moo@oul110-gw4.netplaza.fi)
16:55.01*** join/#openmoko slomo_ (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo)
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17:03.26aloril2counter_msg http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%)
17:03.27alorilaloril2 changed counter prefix message to http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%)
17:04.29Elrondcounter
17:04.30alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) P1: a week, 2 days 18:55:30 (9.789 +-6.0 days) (1392;222)
17:05.04Elrondaloril2 - Is a week really sensible? Or do you read "second week of June" as "next week"?
17:05.23*** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net)
17:05.29aloril2upper limit is at 2007-06-18
17:06.03aloril2lower limit might be too low though
17:06.05SpeedEvil'throughout the second week of June' implies a process going on through that time period.
17:06.48ElrondSpeedEvil - Right. The interesting question is, which week that is. 4-8 or 11-15.
17:07.21aloril2SpeedEvil: when I log in, it does show 'wrong' IP for me (resolves to openmoko.xelerance.com)
17:08.03aloril2counter doesn't cover whole 4-8, only part, but should cover whole 11-15 one (and few extra days)
17:08.23aloril2counter page covers 'before' counter part, maybe that 10% is too high  ..
17:08.46Vegaryou should use the ± character in the counter
17:09.30*** join/#openmoko neostrider (n=daniel@cm-tvcidade-nri-C8B1D654.dynamic.brdterra.com.br)
17:11.40aloril2Vegar: hmm.. would that show right in every client?
17:11.58Vegardunno
17:12.04Vegarmake it UTF8
17:12.17SpeedEvilNot all clients do UTF8
17:12.34Vegarname one that doesn't
17:12.41SpeedEvilBitchX
17:13.15Vegarbitchx uses whatever the terminal is using
17:13.41henawell, i think you shouldn't live by every crappy client anyway, even tho i preferred bx for a long time
17:13.49*** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@cpc2-bagu2-0-0-cust912.bagu.cable.ntl.com)
17:13.52Vegardoesn't it?
17:14.08henashould, but i have no idea
17:14.39mjrVegar, I don't think it can handle variable width characters properly
17:14.39henashould use iconv atleast
17:14.48Vegarah
17:14.53mjrfor text editing and layout
17:15.01mjrirssi ♡
17:15.16Vegareven mirc supports UTF8 now
17:15.38*** join/#openmoko BenC_ (n=bcollins@collinsap1.phunnypharm.org)
17:15.41mjryeah, at long last
17:17.20henaand since bx isn't even developed anymore, i don't see a point in supporting it that strictly
17:18.01CoreDump|home<PROTECTED>
17:18.14LuitvDbuh, i hate it
17:18.36henaagree
17:18.46Vegarat least it should say +/-
17:19.16*** join/#openmoko BenC (n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins)
17:20.41aloril2mjr: so /charset ISO-8859-15 is not needed on Finnish channel anymore? all use now UTF-8? (now that mirc supports it)
17:21.13mjrone can't make categorical statements like that
17:21.22mjrthere are some old fart channels where you'll get bitching
17:21.51henaand it's a completely different issue, whether people use it or not
17:22.07henathere's always people who's religion is to be against anything
17:22.13mjryeah
17:22.59*** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3D19B.dip.t-dialin.net)
17:23.39*** join/#openmoko Freed (n=jecsar@mac33-2-82-225-98-209.fbx.proxad.net)
17:24.33*** join/#openmoko madewokherd (n=urk@c-24-3-50-207.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
17:27.11aloril2counter
17:27.12alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) P1: a week, 2 days 18:32:47 (9.773±6.0 days) (1393;222)
17:27.31aloril2looks OK?
17:28.32*** join/#openmoko sixfeet__ (i=sixfeet@p5484DCFB.dip.t-dialin.net)
17:28.34henahow strict are they on selling those development phones?
17:28.46aloril2faq?
17:28.47alorilSee http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ
17:28.52henasry
17:29.00*** join/#openmoko miip (n=miip@p54A54D29.dip.t-dialin.net)
17:29.04aloril2np
17:29.08mjrhena, not at all, just that sales have been delayed
17:29.45buzaloril: maybe you should say thats kinda limited supply
17:30.15aloril2yeah, probably going to sell out, but they will ramp up production though (at least that has been plan)
17:31.15henaprolly not gonna buy one straight awat then, not so sure how long i will be interested on this
17:31.19hena;)
17:31.34balrog-kunthey produced 1000 and the list of potential buyers was only 350
17:31.48henaah, ok
17:32.07aloril2balrog-kun: I think actual number of buyers will be at least 10x of buying_interest_list
17:32.39buzi think if interest is higher, interest list people should get precedence?
17:32.49buzi know its not official or anyhting like that
17:32.55buzbut you need to allocate them somehow
17:33.04buzunless you do fifo, which is fair, too
17:34.17balrog-kunaloril2: yeah, i'd say 2x or 3x, but i'm incompetent in statistics
17:34.46buzi'd say it hinges on p2 discount
17:34.55balrog-kunaloril2: and i think half of the people on the list are not going to hop right on the phones and perhaps have only put their names on there for fun
17:35.12*** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net)
17:35.14buzif discount is small i'll wait
17:35.55aloril2balrog-kun: could be, but also I think many won't bother to register+edit (and at same publish that they want to buy it) for 'nothing' as page says
17:36.41aloril2buz: also how long time until P2 is available
17:36.48balrog-kunaloril2: right, i myself wouldn't register only because i'd be planning to buy, if i was
17:37.14buzpersonally i registered but havent yet decided on p1
17:37.17buzdamn sure will get p2
17:37.45SpeedEvilI want p1
17:40.27buzi would have hoped for a cam
17:40.32buzi know about retooling etc but still
17:40.50aloril2maybe multitouch would require retooling too :-(
17:40.54Ganneffwhat does one want with a cam in a *phone*?
17:41.08Ganneffone tool for one thing... :)
17:41.11buzif its a good cam
17:41.20buzit might well replace a cheap point and shoot digicam
17:41.25xl0buz: It's theoretically impossible.
17:41.31henawell, id like to get one asap, but if they're scarce, i can wait
17:41.44henathere are prolly more useful dev's there than me ;)
17:42.07buzxl0: take a look at the pics from nokia n95
17:42.17buzits not slr like, but its plenty for something i actually have with me
17:42.28buz(the old .22cal vs assault rifle discussion)
17:42.35*** join/#openmoko sative (n=oh@netmatz.org)
17:44.09henai ran in to the store to get psp when it came out, paid a whole lot money out of it and took me six months to do anything with it and even then my interest lasted for a month
17:44.25pH5I don't need a cam in my phone, but a umts phone+gps in the cam would be nice.
17:44.38mmpGanneff: there's a lot you can do with a cam in _free_ phone :)
17:46.35*** join/#openmoko ewanm89 (n=ewanm89@host81-151-190-95.range81-151.btcentralplus.com)
17:47.29mjra bluetooth-enabled camera would be a nice companion piece...
17:47.41hena;)
17:48.24mmpmjr: sure, but still another piece of hardware you need to carry with you
17:48.38henai'm more into enciphering
17:49.07Ganneffif i want a tool to take pics - i take a camera. if i want to phone - a phone. etc. i hate "put it all in once". just lowers quality of everything
17:49.19elcarnihm
17:49.57elcarnithis was certainly already posted
17:49.57mmpGanneff: your camera is not capable of doing instant OCR of text you just photo'ed :)
17:50.10elcarnihttp://www.djlosch.com/article_Comparison:_iPhone_vs_A1200_vs_Neo1973
17:50.17elcarnia nice comparison
17:50.17Ganneffmmp: of course, because its a camera and not a ocr software
17:50.41henaumm, why not?
17:52.07Vegaryou need high-quality cameras for OCR
17:52.29mmpGanneff: The whole is not just sum of its parts:). The point is that by adding cam to openmoko phone you can do things you would not expect. Would you expect location-based profiles from phone with GPS? :)
17:53.13elcarnihm... a cam would be very nice
17:53.17henawell, for it work in a sane way, but nothing really stops you from having ocr in your phone
17:53.37elcarnibut still... it will certainly not be meant for photographers...
17:53.54mmpVegar: yes, but basically just taking some quick photo of big ehough text can save few minutes of "typing" it into phone, which can be nice, as there is no official input method for openmoko except virtual keyboard, afaik.
17:54.00elcarnibecause cellphone cameras are still not good enough
17:54.16henatrue, i'd rather just have simple cam interface in the phone and buy the phone as an accessory if i wanted
17:54.26henahaha
17:54.29henathe cam i mean ;)
17:55.44Freedplug an usb cam !
17:56.01buzwtf, guy calls, wants troubleshooting from me but insists on me signing an NDA from abroad
17:56.10buzyeah i dont think so
17:56.55SpeedEvilWas he going to pay?
17:57.23DukeOfURLwho's the guy?
17:57.49buzhe said he'd only discuss details after me signing  nda
17:57.58buzguy i know from some older deals
17:58.00DukeOfURLfrom the states?
17:58.21SpeedEvilThe _right_ way is to pay you for signing the NDA.
17:58.39SpeedEvilIrrespective if you then choose to work for him.
17:58.43henathere is no right way of asking something like that
17:59.41buzhe is swiss as am i, but the company lives on channel islands (i usually refuse to deal with offshore on principle)
17:59.42SpeedEvilSure there is. "I'd like your opinion on something, but I can't discuss it without you signing an NDA. It'd be around $10K - and I'll pay you $200 for signing the NDA, irrespective of if you do it'
18:00.19buzsounded like cleaning up behind some offshoring deal
18:00.25henanda's are bad, mmm'kay
18:00.30buzexactly
18:00.34buzi can see the need for ndas,
18:00.43SpeedEvilNDAs are required in some lines of buisness.
18:00.44buzbut i dont sign them without the client paying for a lawyer of my chosing
18:00.47SpeedEvilFor good reason.
18:00.49SpeedEvilyeah
18:01.16buznot that i really am keen on cleaning up some cheap php stuff anyway
18:01.34buzoh and btw, by that measure, 200usd for the nda is too little
18:01.55SpeedEvilNumbers were made up - whatever you feel comfortable with.
18:02.05SpeedEvilLawyers fees + your usual hourly.
18:02.09SpeedEvil+foo
18:02.12buzyeah
18:02.19buzbut try getting a lawyer sunday evening
18:02.30buzthats just not gonna happening unless you're a really good customer
18:03.04buz(i dont htink the one who drafted the nda really had much clue about writing such, never seen a 10 line nda)
18:03.08DukeOfURLBefore signing, he should describe, in a document, every proprietary item that he is going to divulge to you.  Then escrow the document and reference it in the NDA.  After signing, you can then determine whether items are already in the public domain.
18:03.15buzexactly
18:03.21buzand not just use wildcard language like all projects
18:03.52DukeOfURLit's a power trip anyway
18:03.57DukeOfURLfor him
18:04.04aloril2Vegar: look at http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/reviews/item/Nokia_N95-part_3_the_Camera.php : seems enough for OCR
18:04.21SpeedEvilOCR is more a software problem IMO.
18:04.36buzthat cam is more than good enough for snapshots
18:04.40buzbut the phone runs 700EUR
18:04.41aloril2of course old FZ20 5Mpixel is much better, but still nice pics considering its camera phone
18:04.51*** join/#openmoko agoode (n=agoode@2001:4830:1633:0:212:3fff:fe70:6222)
18:04.59SpeedEvilI wonder when multi-lens/sensor fusion cameras will hit.
18:08.02SpeedEvilFor a complete 360*360 panorama, at the peak resolution of the eyes - you need around 1.4 gigapixels.
18:09.09*** join/#openmoko baze (n=baze@p5481D31C.dip.t-dialin.net)
18:09.24aloril2SpeedEvil: and maybe 60Hz ;-)
18:09.31TronicHmm, doesn't seem so bad.
18:09.51SpeedEvilMy ideal 'snap' camera would be around a 10 gigapixel wide-angle lens. Decide later that I'd have rather used a 50* zoom, and just crop it, and I've got a 4MP image.
18:09.51Tronicaloril2: Probably more than that, too.
18:10.06SpeedEvilYou want as fast as you can, so you can de-blue
18:10.08SpeedEvilYou want as fast as you can, so you can de-blur
18:10.27SpeedEvilAnd not only camera motion, but object motion blur removal.
18:10.48SpeedEvilEssentially delay much of what makes a good photo till later.
18:10.56aloril2blah, just record every photon that hits ;-)
18:11.00SpeedEvilPoint the camera in sort-of-the right direction.
18:11.05TronicSpeedEvil: If you start going that way, you will need an infinite resolution, too.
18:11.08TronicSo that you can zoom.
18:11.11SpeedEvilNot quite.
18:11.17SpeedEvilJust several gigapixels.
18:11.32TronicCan't zoom on that...
18:11.37Tronic(much)
18:11.46SpeedEvilOn a 60 degree lens
18:11.47Rincethere won't be a camera on the P2-Neo
18:11.51SpeedEvilNot for a complete panorama.
18:12.50TronicI have been wondering how densely packed full color pixels are required to display a perfect image for human eyes.
18:13.01TronicMaybe something around 1000 DPI?
18:13.08SpeedEvilWell - ...
18:13.14CoreDump|homeway less
18:13.16SpeedEvilIt's more angular resolution.
18:13.31SpeedEvil1000dpi is almost certainly never visible by most people.
18:13.38TronicThe limiting factor is that you can only focus from 10 cm or so.
18:13.39CoreDump|homethe human eye can hardly make out a pixel in 300DPI
18:13.41SpeedEvilIt may be by some with exceptionally short sight.
18:13.45TronicIf you try to look closer, you see less.
18:14.12TronicCoreDump|home: It's quite easy to see pixels on 300 DPI laser prints.
18:14.38TronicIt is still possible, but harder, to see pixels on 600 DPI laser prints.
18:15.02DukeOfURLWasn't there talk abount another FIC product in the openmoko tree?  Camera phone?
18:15.05TronicAnd IMO impossible on 1200 DPI...
18:15.29*** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl)
18:15.46*** join/#openmoko daniel_bergamini (n=danieber@70-41-167-151.cust.wildblue.net)
18:15.47TronicEven 1200 DPI isn't perfect for laser prints, though, as they have to use rasterization for greyscales.
18:16.19buzDukeOfURL: something with 300000pixel sensors
18:16.48TronicBut on a full color display the benchmark is whether you can recognize a 2x2 block of grey pixels from a single white pixel.
18:17.11KragenSitakertronic: wikipedia claims that "the ability to resolve a spatial pattern separated by a visual angle of one minute of arc is considered normal visual acuity"
18:17.46TronicKragenSitaker: How many DPI does that make at 10 cm?
18:17.57KragenSitakerunits tells me that that's 0.00029088821 radians
18:18.10KragenSitakersin(x) is pretty close to x when x is less than 0.01
18:18.11TronicAnd what is a visual pattern? A c letter or an E, like what they use in eye examinations?
18:18.38TronicYou need to see worth of several pixels of a pattern in order to recognize it.
18:18.39KragenSitakerso that's .00290888210 centimeters...
18:18.55KragenSitakeror 0.0011452292 inches (sorry, i'm cutting and pasting)
18:19.09KragenSitakerthat's about 800 or 900 dpi
18:19.12KragenSitakerwell, lines per inch
18:19.25KragenSitakerwhich means twice that in dots per inch
18:19.36TronicNow I am stuck in text console, installing Gentoo.
18:20.43SpeedEvilFew people can focus at optimum resolution at 10cm
18:20.43KragenSitakeri think "pattern separated by" means that if you have two marks with that much space between them, you can see that there are two instead of one
18:20.44TronicBut that's pretty close to my estimate, then :)
18:20.44KragenSitakerSpeedEvil: i think almost everyone under 25 can ;)
18:20.44*** join/#openmoko quitte (n=quitte@stgt-d9bea2b4.pool.mediaWays.net)
18:20.47SpeedEvilNot at full resolution.
18:21.08SpeedEvilThe lens gets more abberant as it's pushed into the shape to focus closely.
18:21.12KragenSitakerwell, it suggests that the number might be 1600 or 1800 dpi rather than 1200, but yes, it's pretty close
18:21.24KragenSitakerSpeedEvil: you could be right --- i'm not a vision scientist
18:22.34TronicOf course even the best displays have had only about 100 DPI for the last decade or two, so it's quite unlikely that we get to 1000 DPI any time soon.
18:22.52SpeedEvilSomewhere I've got a 3000DPI display.
18:23.06SpeedEvilIt's only 5mm though.
18:23.21KragenSitakerif it's just a matter of slight aberrations, though, then whether you can distinguish stuff might depend on how strong the contrast is
18:23.27KragenSitakerthat's pretty cool! what's it for?
18:23.56SpeedEvilIt was from a viewfinder.
18:23.59buzTronic: decent displays have more like 120-150dpi these days
18:24.05*** join/#openmoko vosen (n=v0@86-63-84-163.asta-net.com.pl)
18:24.19KragenSitakerTronic: i think there have been a few displays, e.g. for medical imaging and, as speedevil points out, camera viewfinders, that have had better resolution for a while
18:24.21Tronicbuz: Do you mean displays for mobile devices?
18:24.34KragenSitakerbut that's certainly true of mainstream computer monitors
18:24.36buzmore laptops/desktop lcd
18:24.49Tronicbuz: Yes, those can have slightly higher DPIs.
18:24.57TronicLaptops, that is.
18:25.02TronicDesktop LCDs don't, for some reason.
18:25.05SpeedEvilI can see benefit from going to 200DPI from 100DPI for general purpose displays.
18:25.06buzi never quite figured out that one
18:25.12TronicThey are all just ~96 DPI.
18:25.29buzi'd buy 15" 1680x1050 like in my laptop in a heartbeat
18:25.35buzshould be cheaper to make than 20" one, too
18:25.43SpeedEvilAnd lower power.
18:25.47SpeedEvilAnd lighter.
18:25.54TronicI believe that even 1920x1200 is available for 15" laptops now.
18:25.56buzyeah i dont really care much for power in a desktop lcd
18:26.00buzTronic: yes
18:26.03buzbut only in heavy ones
18:26.07SpeedEvilOh -0 I thoguth you meant laptop.
18:26.13TronicThe laptop panels have very bad image quality, though.
18:26.22buzTronic: there are some good ones
18:26.31buzsamsung has nice in their expensive range
18:26.31KragenSitakerwow, 1900x1200?
18:26.39KragenSitakerthat's amazing
18:26.44buzyeah 1920x1200 has been around for a while in laptops
18:26.54buzcjb: what laptop
18:26.55cjbYou can get several laptops with it, even a Dell.
18:27.00cjbAlienware m5500 for me.
18:27.05ewonalienware?
18:27.07ewongood God man
18:27.13MacNorthso sorta Dell :-D
18:27.20buzand the only lenovo there is, is 3kg
18:27.31TronicMy next laptop is going to be Dell or HP. Haven't decided which.
18:27.33cjbhttp://blog.printf.net/articles/2006/04/20/linux-on-the-alienware-m5500
18:27.36buzi rather get 2,4kg and stick with 1680x1050
18:27.38KragenSitakeri guess if i had to choose between 2 megapixels in a 15" display and 2 megapixels at 100dpi, i might choose the bigger display
18:27.48ewonI have a compaq n400c I got off ebay of $300
18:27.50MacNorthasus anyone?
18:27.55TronicLenovo has been a disappointment lately.
18:27.57buzMacNorth: overpriced
18:28.01henahmmh. there are some really annoyinh things i see, for features and suggestions :/
18:28.01TronicMacNorth: No freaking way.
18:28.04buzTronic: yeah i'm getting rid of my T60
18:28.05TronicMacNorth: I already have one :/
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18:28.22buzbut only because of the missing ati drivers on linux
18:28.22ewonif I had the money, I'd get a thinkpad x series
18:28.27buzotherwise the machine is a dream to use
18:28.33buzewon: they are on sale in the us
18:28.40buz1200US or so
18:28.46SpeedEvilMy ideal display isn't really physically possible ATM. I want a 4m across 4:3 display, which is at least showing the image at infinity, better proper 3D. And you can get a tan from it.
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18:28.58TronicIt's sad that 14" laptops are very rare.
18:29.04TronicIMO that's the optimal size.
18:29.06buzTronic: quite a few aorund still
18:29.15ewonTronic: unless you want to carry it anywhere
18:29.16cjbSpeedEvil: cool, which?
18:29.20buzincluding the uber cool 1400x1050 1,5kg panasonic
18:29.22elcarnivaio?
18:29.26SpeedEvilToshiba 3110CT - lightly modded.
18:29.35buzbut 2100USD plus shipping from JP is too much
18:29.36SpeedEvilRecelled with modern cells - for 6 hour uptime.
18:29.40Tronic15.4" is quite big and difficult to use in coaches or planes.
18:29.43SpeedEvilModem ripped out, and wifi stick jammed in.
18:29.45SpeedEvil1.1Kg.
18:30.04buzTronic: i dont work on planes
18:30.38buzi hate flying anyhow
18:30.38elcarnispecially for movies
18:30.39ewondo you guys ever have to travel with your laptops?
18:30.41TronicWidescreen (1.60 aspect ratio) has became the norm in the past two years, which is a good thing.
18:30.56buzewon: to school, quite often
18:31.04KragenSitakeris the X series the next product line up from the T series, or the next line down?
18:31.07Tronicewon: I carry my laptop with me almost everywhere.
18:31.07buzbut the train ride is too short for it o be worht taking it out of the bag
18:31.09buzso gotta go
18:31.11ewonbuz: do you not find such a laptop hard to use on a bus seat?
18:31.28buzewon: i dont use it on the road
18:31.29KragenSitakercjb: how's touch-typing on it? do you have small hands?
18:31.42ewonah
18:31.44cjbI have huge hands, but touch-typing is okay, it just took a long time to get good at it.
18:32.00elcarnisame here
18:32.35KragenSitakeri think touch-typing is the biggest thing i'd miss on the neo1973 if i were to take it in place of my laptop
18:32.39cjbhttp://wiki.laptop.org/go/Image:AP1_39.jpg # OLPC vs. Alienware.
18:32.54VegarKragenSitaker: bluetooth keyboard
18:33.22quittethis is pretty offtopic, but maybe someone here can help me understand this: I have a ar7 based router that by default adds a mtd partition for jffs2 behind the squashfs rootfs. I'd like to flash a complete image containing both the squasfs and the jffs2, but I can't figure out how the kernel knows where the squashfs partition ends.
18:34.00cjbquitte: on the Neo, it uses an environment variable in the bootloader.
18:34.08elcarnigoddamnit
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18:34.24elcarnicompilation failed :(((
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18:35.52pjzquitte: there's generally either a compiled-in map in the kernel or a kernel cmdline arg
18:37.10balrog-kunthe cmdline args is "mtdparts=" i think
18:37.29balrog-kunand the compiled-in map is normally found in the board file
18:38.11quitteI had a look at the flash mapping part for that device. it calculates the beginning of the squashfs by searching for it. and then it just knows the size of it by a pointer named size, that as far as I with my limited understanding ca tell is just there. then it defines the next partition behind that.
18:39.57quitteunfortunately if I just add some another filesystem image to the firmware image the size pointer is always too big.
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18:46.21aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[User:Hena]] [[Neo1973]]
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18:57.36crackfiendMacNorth: a little late, but Asus has very well built laptops. I have an M6N, and the build quality is much, much higher than my Inspiron 1505 (no more Dell for me)
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19:27.46thomasg_gpmcrackfiend, all asus notebooks I've seen have "mirror"-displays, aka glossy, aka glare, aka somethingelse :) imho that makes devices unusable for working mobile.
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19:49.03crackfiendthomasg_gpm: hmmm. My laptop is older (Centrino), but it definitely does not have a glossy screen. Maybe that's a new thing they do
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20:24.33loufoquecrackfiend: what's "the build quality" ?
20:27.26pH5loufoque: there are peaces coming off my dell laptop all the time, that's not build quality.
20:27.34pH5s/peaces/pieces/
20:28.24cjbyes, the glossy screen is a new thing.  MacBooks are pretty extreme about it.
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20:28.36pH5it's a pity
20:33.12koenif I want brighter colours I'll alter the ICC profile
20:33.23pH5I guess those glossy displays are good for contrast when looked at in a completely dark room.
20:33.56cjbyeah, my wife likes hers.  she works in a lab with overhead florescent lighting, though, and it's much harder to see there.
20:33.58cjbso it's a trade-off.
20:34.48pH5I'll happily trade in contrast for visibility in daylight conditions. Heck, I wish the neo's display was transflective.
20:35.51cjbyeah, I think OLPC will start getting display manufacturers to think about making sunlight-readable screens.
20:36.02ElrondpH5 - My python gps-toy starts to get useful (in the sense, that I can send commands, receive answers. ;-))
20:37.36pH5Elrond: oh great, now get a lock on some satellites :)
20:37.41pH5did you put it up somewhere?
20:38.12ElrondpH5 - The .py? No, not yet. It's only on the flash of the phone ;o)
20:38.14crackfiendloufoque: like pH5 said, little things always breaking, buttons sticking, and when I lift the laptop it creaks and squeaks. There's more flex in the plastic panels (seems very thin). I don't get that with the Asus
20:38.27Elrond(I've compiled my editor for the phone ;o) )
20:38.57SpeedEvilHow slow is gcc on the phone?
20:39.53ElrondSpeedEvil - I have not compiled gcc for it yet.
20:39.54loufoquecrackfiend: I've been buying Dell laptops for quite some time (because I can choose the hardware a bit) but never any other brand, so I couldn't compare.
20:40.31ElrondSpeedEvil - But "$EDITOR, python ..., $EDITOR" doesn't feel any different than on my desktop. :-)
20:44.52miipI had an old ASUS (Pentium3m) and it squeaked like hell after two years. the new HP gets cracks but doesn't squeak :)
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20:54.02ElrondHmm, matchbox-desktop-2 looks somewhat better, but is buggy.
20:54.22ElrondAnd it doesn't have the folders...
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21:11.02webjamesis it me, or is openmoko getting speedier?
21:14.15webjames!google 350 usd in gbp
21:14.16cdbot2350 U.S. dollars = 176.830192 British pounds
21:14.26webjamescdbot2: thanks
21:16.37guaqua!google 350 usd in eur
21:16.38cdbot2350 U.S. dollars = 260.37792 Euros
21:18.43webjamesguaqua: not bad really, i'm going to buy one!
21:18.54guaquayeah
21:19.00guaquai'm getting P1 or P2
21:19.02guaquanot sure yet
21:19.11guaqualittle low on the money side now so it might be P2
21:19.18guaquamy current phone is breaking down anyway so...
21:19.25webjamesi was going to get a P1+ but i'm not sure if that's still on
21:19.39webjamesor rather when that will be on
21:20.16webjamesi sold my k800i so i'd have the money, but that was a while ago, so i may not anymore
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21:25.47loufoqueis a k800i worth something?
21:30.25webjamesyeah, enough to buy a neo
21:32.54webjamesi know which one i'd prefer!
21:33.31loufoquethe k800i has a good camera though
21:33.32loufoqueand umts
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21:36.15webjameswell it was good, but slow.. no good really as most subjects like moving before the photo has taken
21:42.02KragenSitakerVegar: is there a bluetooth keyboard you can recommend?
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21:52.15DukeOfURLI just purchased the Macintosh BT keyboard and mouse, and I like them a lot.
21:53.55ElrondDukeOfURL - How much do they cost?
21:54.44Elrond(Not to mention, I'm too paranoid to type my password over a radio link...)
21:58.08DukeOfURLThe MightyMouse is 69USD, and the keyboard is 59USD
21:58.50DukeOfURLhttp://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=ED876AF4&nplm=MA272LL/A
21:59.55loufoqueargh
21:59.57loufoquecrapple
22:06.11KensanElrond, Bluetooth provides Authentication and Encryption.
22:06.24webjameswow, just looking at e-ink
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22:12.47CIA-24openmoko: 03mickey * r2145 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/src/ (buttonactions.c buttonactions.h): openmoko-panel-mainmenu: prepare for simple power saving logic
22:18.42thomasg_gpmhehe, look at sun's german homepage: http://de.sun.com/homepage/index.html
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22:21.37k|tosweet
22:30.08loufoquewhat's JAVAFX ?
22:30.45k|tosomething that sun would like you to believe will revolutionize your life
22:32.39loufoqueisn't that the case for everything sun does?
22:33.02k|toi know they've been saying that about java for ages
22:33.21k|toI shouldn't talk, my dad was one of the original java guys at sun
22:33.48loufoqueeven dads can be wrong sometimes.
22:34.00k|tono, never!
22:34.01k|toheh
22:34.45loufoquethere is nothing to learn.
22:34.49loufoquethat's the point.
22:35.06loufoqueit features stuff every programmer knows
22:35.16loufoqueit's just OO
22:35.18k|towell, it helps to know where to find stuff
22:35.46loufoquethe language and its huge standard library are different things
22:35.55k|toyea
22:36.01k|toim talking about the STL
22:36.07k|toI have no idea what's where
22:36.13balrog-kunthe syntax also has its quirks
22:38.58TronicJava used to be a syntactically simplified language.
22:39.18TronicThen they noticed that programs in such language get extremely complex and started adding new features.
22:39.28TronicNow it is a mess.
22:45.23aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Csdexter]]
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22:47.01ElrondI wonder, how much the openmoko coreteam knows about sun+neo. ;-)
22:47.22loufoquevery little
22:47.35xl0wtf sun+neo?
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22:48.02k|toif they're not using this javafx stuff, then why is it on sun's main page?
22:48.29loufoqueI guess this means the neo will have java
22:48.37loufoqueand GPL java
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22:51.34Elrondxl0 - See http://de.sun.com/
22:52.06xl0Ughm.
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23:03.57DukeOfURLGTA02 might have EDGE!
23:04.24ElrondDukeOfURL - From where do you know that?
23:04.37loufoquewhat's the point of EDGE when there is UMTS
23:04.58DukeOfURLhttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8574715471341709984
23:04.58MukundaHas there been any news on how much the discount on the final Openmoko will be for people that buy P1?
23:05.15ElrondMukunda - No idea.
23:05.24loufoqueDukeOfURL: if it's english, it's very weird
23:05.42Mukundahttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3147833455273735180&q=Questions+Answered
23:05.45DukeOfURLwith Neo demo
23:07.23k|towow, lucky me
23:07.36k|toi was expecting it to be in german (which i almost kinda speak)
23:07.40k|tobut then its in chinese
23:07.48k|toand my chinese is better than my german
23:07.51k|togo figure
23:07.56DukeOfURLenglish later
23:08.04DukeOfURLscroll forward to Sean
23:08.21k|tois that gonna be in german?
23:09.10k|tooh sweet, english. my english is even better than my chinese ;P
23:09.19Elrond*G*
23:09.31Elrondk|to - So what's your preferred language? quenya? ;o)
23:09.36k|tohah
23:09.43k|tono, im  a native english speaker
23:09.45DukeOfURLFortran
23:09.49k|toyea
23:09.51k|tothat's it
23:11.00ElrondI knew cobol. ;o)
23:11.18k|toO_O
23:11.21DukeOfURLPROCEDURE DIVISION.
23:12.32loufoquefortran is useless
23:12.41k|tofortran rocks
23:12.55k|togreat for creating segfaults
23:12.59DukeOfURLback in the day, it was Fortran and Cobol
23:13.08loufoquefortran-like performance can already be reached with today's C++
23:13.39k|tomost of the reason fortran still exists is to maintain old code
23:13.41ElrondI never understood, why people still hip on fortran stuff.
23:14.02k|tomost of the aerospace engineering industry's code is still in fortran
23:14.14DukeOfURLElrond: it was a joke.
23:14.18k|toand it would take a damn long time to rewrite it all in c or c++
23:14.44k|todon't worry though, we'll rewrite it as soon as the rules of aerodynamics change ;-P
23:14.46loufoqueFortran is faster than C
23:15.20ElrondWhy can fortran be faster than C?
23:15.39cjbNo pointers.
23:15.46loufoquebecause array programming is part of the language.
23:15.48cjbPointers are the optimization-killer.  :)
23:17.26cjbElrond: ie. C converts arrays to pointers in function passing, so two pointers to the same type might point to the same data, but the compiler can't know that.  So it can't touch that code at all.
23:17.31*** join/#openmoko LetoTo (n=paul@bofh.xelerance.com)
23:17.41cjbFortran only has pointers that don't alias, so the limited Fortran pointers don't hurt optimization.
23:18.20loufoquethat's not really why Fortran is faster.
23:18.30ElrondWell, good hand optimised C code will perform the same, I'm quite sure.
23:18.39loufoqueFortran is faster for scientific computing because arrays, matrices, etc. are part of the languages
23:18.40k|tountil recently there really wasn't a good open source f90 compiler though
23:18.55cjbloufoque: gcc has an autovectorization branch now.
23:19.13ElrondOh, and simple story.
23:19.14loufoqueit's not only about vectorization
23:19.21Elrondphysicists fortran code....
23:19.21cjbloufoque: so while your complaint is totally true, it's a problem with the compiler (and Intel's icc does a great job on scientific code) rather than the language, I think.
23:19.27DukeOfURLshow me a CS curriculum that has Fortran or Cobol.  It's as dead as Latin.
23:19.38cjbDukeOfURL: dead to CS, not to Physics.
23:19.45Elrond... college rewrote it in python/numpy. It was lots faster. ;-)
23:19.52k|tomy aeroE curriculum is almost exclusively fortran
23:19.56k|tofortran and some matlab
23:19.59DukeOfURLyikes!
23:20.20loufoqueanyway, thanks to C++, the greatest language on earth, Fortran's performance is reachable with a library implementation.
23:20.39k|toyea, i did that last semester
23:20.47Elrondloufoque - Yeah, that's what I was expecting... or in C. whatever.
23:20.50k|towrote my code in C++ with fortran calls
23:21.03loufoqueElrond: it's not possible in C at all...
23:21.26loufoqueit's based on template trickery
23:22.11loufoqueBy using templates cleverly, optimizations such as loop fusion, unrolling, tiling, and algorithm specialization can be performed automatically at compile time.
23:22.16k|tothat's not necessary
23:22.33empty_mindloufoque, any pointers for this kind of optimization ?
23:22.39k|toyou can always just link against fortran code
23:22.58empty_mindloufoque, are these algorithms available anywhere on net ?
23:23.23loufoqueBlitz++ is a popular library that does that
23:23.30loufoquethere are others though
23:23.46loufoquebut blitz++ is the one that claims to be the fastest
23:24.19Elrondloufoque - Anything, that C++ can do, can be done in C.
23:24.58*** join/#openmoko mzb (n=ubernut@ppp108-88.static.internode.on.net)
23:25.05ElrondIt might not be as nice. Of course.
23:25.14loufoqueyou may want to search for "C++ expression templates" too for info on the mechanism
23:26.51Elrondtemplates just make life easier. That's about it. :-)
23:27.20k|towhen you depend on templates too much they make life much messier down the line
23:28.39Elrondk|to - Yep. Guess why I use C for performance critical stuff, and python for the rest. :-)
23:31.31xl0k|to: And, what did the video say?
23:31.46xl0Sorry, I don't have the needed bandwidth to watch it yet.
23:31.50k|tohe's still talking
23:31.58loufoqueElrond: Let's say you've got a Vector type. To add two vectors, you would have code that does for(i=0; i<n; i++) v[i] = v1[i] + v2[i]; but using some assembler to get the SIMD stuff. So if you want to do something like  v = v1 + v2 / 5 + 4 * v3;, you would do in C v = add(add(v1, divide(v2, 5)), mul(4, v3)); with a loop for each function, which means a lot of loops, while actually, you just need to do one, for(i=0; i<n; i++) v[i
23:31.58loufoque] = v1[i] + v2[i] / 5 + 4* v3[i];
23:31.58k|tomostly just going on about how great FOSS is
23:32.07k|tonothing really interesting yet
23:32.19loufoqueElrond: a C library just can't implement loop fusion here
23:35.38Elrondloufoque - A C library can't but. But hand optimised C. ;-)
23:36.25DukeOfURLAnyone figure out the watermelon poster?
23:36.28xl0Elrond: And what's the point migrating tons of fortran code to hand-optimised c?
23:36.40k|towhich generation gets GPS?
23:36.45Elrondxl0 - No point. :-)
23:37.18Elrondk|to - The P0,P1 has gps. I assume, P1+/P2 will also have GPS.
23:37.20xl0k|to: P[0-2]?
23:37.30k|tosweet
23:37.32empty_mindElrond, and how many lines of hand optimized C code can be churned out everyday ?
23:37.39k|toso no wifi at first but at least we get gps
23:38.03k|toand then the accelerometer is also p1+?
23:38.08Elrondempty_mind - You usually don't need to many of those. There are core parts of some software, that need this type of optimisation.
23:38.19empty_mindk|to, we have heard gta02 will have wifi
23:38.42empty_mindElrond, but in scientific computing whole of the software is the core part :-(
23:39.15Elrondempty_mind - Not true.
23:39.41Elrondempty_mind - Some parts get only executed 10 times a second. It doesn't hurt, if they take 1ms.
23:39.57k|toyea, like for example an ODE solver
23:40.27ElrondWell, the solver has to be fast.
23:40.39k|tothings like LAPACK get used so much because they are so optimized and are often called inside the innermost loop in something much bigger like an FEA solver
23:40.47xl0Hey. guys, may I make an assumption that you have little understanding what you are talking about? ;)
23:41.01k|toso while the FEA interface can be as slow as anything, you really want a fast core solver
23:41.20Elrondk|to - Right.
23:41.37Elrondxl0 - No. At least for me, this is day-to-day work.
23:41.48k|toTo a degree this is what I study
23:41.57k|toso I'm at least reasonably familiar
23:42.10xl0My regrets to both of you. ;)
23:42.30k|to:-\
23:42.56k|tonow they're getting into the technical bits
23:42.56xl0Is there anything you can't do in matlab? ;)
23:43.01k|tostill nothing i hadn't read before though
23:43.16k|toi realized a month or so ago that i can edit videos in matlab
23:43.20k|tothat was a fun night
23:43.41k|toI superimposed this graph of a test result on a video of the test being performed all in matlab
23:44.01ElrondI only used octave for a while.
23:44.14ElrondNow I'm mostly using python for highlevel stuff.
23:44.19k|tooctave is pretty good too for many things
23:44.35k|tobut it can't compare to some of the specialized stuff that matlab provides
23:44.41k|to(simulink, anyone?)
23:45.16Elrond(I saw the engeenering people get orgasms using simulink ;o)) )
23:45.40k|toit's that good
23:45.56Elrond(I hope most people in here are over 18/21 and know what fun is.)
23:46.26k|toheh
23:47.21ElrondWell, I never had a use for it.
23:47.31ElrondAnd I'm quite pissed by commercial software.
23:48.58cjbs/commercial/proprietary/ :)
23:49.32ElrondWell, yeah.
23:49.54ElrondHow do you run labview code in 30 years? ;o)
23:50.11Elrond... probably in qemu. ;o)
23:51.42Jeroenas long as you can run emulators in emulators, you should be able to run most software forever
23:52.00Jeroenbut you won't be able to fix bugs, add features, etc
23:52.43k|toas long as we've got turing machines then there will be _some_ option
23:53.12k|tousually not any kind of reasonable option though
23:53.31ElrondExactly.
23:53.49ElrondThat's why I'm getting more and more pissed by proprietary solutions.
23:53.57k|towhich is whey we're all here
23:54.31k|toi think the phone is one place where this problem is most obvioous
23:55.35ElrondYep. At least to smartphone users. :-)
23:55.50ElrondAnother area is handheld gps units. ;)
23:56.00k|tohey, i can write a program that'll intercept calls from certain numbers and do things
23:56.09k|tothat could be so awesome
23:56.17Elrondhehe, yeah. :-)
23:56.33Jeroena lot of other places are already liberated
23:56.43Jeroendesktops/servers, you can run all free software there
23:56.56k|todoes openmoko work (make calls) on any motorola phones?
23:56.56Jeroenrouters, with openwrt it's free too
23:56.57ElrondYep.
23:57.05k|toor any phones at all?
23:57.16Elrond(except graphics cards... only the intel ones seem mostly free)
23:57.42Jeroenphones are just the next thing
23:57.46Elrondk|to - It should now really work on the Neo1973.
23:58.05k|towell that's great, except i cannot purchase a neo
23:58.18k|toI kind of need a phone
23:58.47ElrondI have to admit, that I did not yet try a SIM in "my" neo...
23:58.56k|toheh
23:59.06k|towhy is this not the first thing that people try?
23:59.11k|toit is a phone after all
23:59.16ElrondSometime I should go to the local discounters and see, what the cheapest SIM is. just for toying.
23:59.24empty_mindk|to, i dont think so. But there is a project which is working on proing openmoko to motorola's openEBZ paltform
23:59.34Elrondk|to - Because I don't want to toast my normal sim.
23:59.55k|togood idea
23:59.59k|toi've got to sleep

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