IRC log for #openmoko on 20070531

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00:41.10KragenSitakerSpeedEvil: that's in the topic
00:41.15KragenSitakernot the wiki
00:41.35KragenSitakerand i don't care if it's binding or not --- i'm not looking to sue somebody.  i just want to know when i can get hold of a phone ;)
00:44.55balrog-kunoh, suing is fun
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01:10.50KragenSitakerbalrog-kun: programming is funner
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02:35.29aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Look_%26_Feel]] [[GSM_%26_GPRS_Connection_Status]] [[Date_%26_Time_Preview]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[Look_%26_Feel]] [[Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch]] [[OpenMoko:Community_Portal]] [[Main_Page/ru]]
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03:14.05bmidgleyhow can i force a recalibration
03:14.12bmidgleyi mean other than reflashing the rootfs
03:16.07bmidgley(screensaver turned on while it was waiting for me to calibrate, really big mess)
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03:55.26alorilbmidgley: <XorA>      rm /etc/pontercal
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04:36.29aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch]] [[Main_Page/ru]] [[GSM_%26_GPRS_Connection_Status]] [[Date_%26_Time_Preview]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[Look_%26_Feel]]
04:43.33peepsalottimer
04:46.15RbdPngncounter
04:46.15alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 60%) P1: 2 days 15:37:04 (2.651 +-2.7 days) (1349;221)
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05:15.30alorilbmidgley: <XorA>      rm /etc/pontercal
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05:15.56aloril(in case you missed it in split)
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06:15.11Vitalycounter
06:15.12alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 60%) P1: 2 days 14:52:36 (2.620 +-2.6 days) (1350;221)
06:16.15aloril1 day and 3 hours and May is over everywhere on Earth
06:16.58CMLike almost all companies, FIC is handling this wrong
06:17.18CMIf you say you're going to make a statement, you better do it too
06:17.38CMEven if it's just "We're having problems and there will be a delay"
06:17.47alorilits probably those few people that get angry that make Sean 'scared' to talk
06:18.11CMWell, they'll get angry no matter what.
06:18.36CMI'm sure everyone is working as hard as they can over there, but you can't make the phones without the screens for example
06:18.44aloriltrue, but then they get kind of 'lighting rod' from that mail :-(
06:19.09CMSure, he should just end it with "Flame on.." ;)
06:19.14alorilhehe
06:20.02pjzwhat mail?
06:20.11alorilit does sound like they are close now though if they have already produced some 1000 units (would be nice to hear confirmation, etc.. about this)
06:20.50alorilpjz: nothing lately, just few weeks ago there was at least one pretty flaming public response
06:21.12pjzah
06:21.24alorilmost were understanding though which is good
06:21.36pjzwell, on one hand, I'm sure Sean etc are busy and updating the world isn't highest priority
06:21.52pjzOTOH, I know how the guy feels, and updating us should perhaps be higher prio
06:22.17pjzOTGH, less buzz if you meet your deadlines :)
06:22.31alorilwell.. he has time to answer occasionally, so *short* blurb like "we have produced 1000 units and are testing" should not take long ;-)
06:22.55alorilthere is no need to say any deadlines
06:30.44Hopscotchgood morning
06:33.45webjamesmorning
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07:07.55TRIsoftmorning
07:09.32webjamesi see openmoko has a new 'today' screen
07:15.18sanneshow so?
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07:34.16Stephmwmornin'
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08:02.59Fletch_workcounter
08:02.59alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 60%) P1: 2 days 13:58:42 (2.582 +-2.6 days) (1351;221)
08:21.38xkr47heh in 2 hours the counter decreased one hour
08:22.02aloril1 hour closer and 1 hour less uncertainty
08:22.04Stephmwmust be a decay curve
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08:46.10hrwmorning
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09:28.12LuitvDhttp://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20070530_0000350082
09:28.14LuitvDlook at that
09:28.31hrwwhat inside?
09:28.44LuitvD4GB + 256MB of NAND Flash and 128MB of RAM, in one chip
09:29.00hrwnice
09:29.19buzmust have
09:29.45buzbut please dont remove some sort of sd slot
09:30.15LuitvDbuz: why would you ? :P
09:30.26buzin neo i mean
09:31.30LuitvDbuz: the number of connections to that chip are the same as the number of connections to 3 seperate chips
09:31.30LuitvDand you can ditch the RAM and NAND that's in the neo right now...
09:31.30buzbut less space
09:31.31LuitvDindeed
09:31.32LuitvDanyhow, it's probably something for a next-gen device
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10:20.26cdbot2* * OM Bug 571 has been created by pavel@ucw.cz
10:20.26cdbot2* * Fonts in menus / home screen / terminal emulator are too
10:20.27cdbot2* * http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=571
10:20.35cdbot2* * OM Bug 572 has been created by pavel@ucw.cz
10:20.37cdbot2* * Screensaver needs to ignore first click, and probably
10:20.39cdbot2* * http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=572
10:20.47cdbot2* * OM Bug 573 has been created by pavel@ucw.cz
10:20.49cdbot2* * Screen flickers
10:20.51cdbot2* * http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=573
10:20.59cdbot2* * OM Bug 574 has been created by mickey@vanille-media.de
10:21.01cdbot2* * timing issues / buffer parsing issues in gsmd
10:21.03cdbot2* * http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=574
10:21.12cdbot2* * OM Bug 575 has been created by stefan@openmoko.org
10:21.13cdbot2* * mainmenu does not handle startup-notification
10:21.15cdbot2* * http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=575
10:21.23cdbot2* * Flood control triggered, clearing queue...
10:21.27cdbot2* * [109] pending messages removed.
10:21.31so_solid_moohehe
10:21.40CoreDump|home=)
10:24.55xkr47:)
10:25.01Stephmwouch
10:25.02RakshasaBogflood O.o
10:25.07Rakshasaurgh
10:25.17Rakshasabugflood, I mean.
10:25.35cheesycounter
10:25.36alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 60%) P1: 2 days 12:47:24 (2.533 +-2.5 days) (1352;221)
10:25.37xkr47so there were 36 more bugs in the queue :)
10:25.45zeckeCoreDump|home: that is a lame bot
10:26.01xkr47again, two hours later the time has decreased 1 hour :)
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10:26.11CoreDump|homeright, CIA would have flooded the 109 messages into the channel =)
10:27.17hadsI'd say it's a non-lame bot.
10:27.56guaqua<PROTECTED>
10:30.15cheesywe should make a poll bot to see what ppl think about the lameness of the bot
10:31.11CoreDump|homebots have feelings too :\
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10:37.07CIA-23openmoko: 03laforge * r2108 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (gta01-pcf50606.patch hxd8-core.patch):
10:37.08CIA-23openmoko: * pcf50606: add initial backlight brightness to platform_data
10:37.08CIA-23openmoko: * hxd8: set initial pcf50606 backlight brightness (Matt Hsu)
10:39.42Stephmw~botsnack
10:39.42aptStephmw: :)
10:39.54alorilin case you didn't see it: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter#SMedia_Glamo3362_GPU_is_being_evaluated.2C_not_yet_selected__2007-05-31
10:40.06SpeedEvilAh.
10:42.00alorilhehe
10:43.33Stephmwhahaha
10:44.21StephmwSpeedEvil: just invoice them for your time supporting their product on here, equating $0.02
10:45.02Stephmw"International Relay Chat support services, 200hrs, $0.02"
10:45.08hadsTime rambling?
10:45.26SpeedEvil:)
10:45.33Stephmw(and yes I know it's InterNET, not International)
10:45.46SpeedEvilDon't forget wiki vandalism - $.02
10:46.06Stephmweasy, you might have to start paying tax
10:47.26ewon"lambasting the ignorant, 1eur"
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11:00.34webjameslast day in may, common!!..
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11:02.34hadsYou'll live.
11:05.02RichardCan I order neo1973 phase 1 now?
11:05.15RichardIt said late May.
11:05.21SpeedEvilIt LIED!
11:06.09SpeedEvilMaybe a week - who knows.
11:07.29SpeedEvilThere are rumors of a run of 1000 being recently completed.
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11:11.12alorilwell.. May is still not over ;-)
11:12.49webjamesthat is true
11:13.30CMHmm.. Maybe asking politely on the mailinglist would work
11:13.37CMThey seem to read it at least
11:14.55webjameswell volunteered
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11:17.25hadsMaybe patience would work
11:19.08CMaloril: I think so too.. They're probably close, and want to come with good news :)
11:19.31hadsIt seems likely.
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11:20.11CMI guess they're afraid of bad publicity on Slashdot and Digg and such if they make an official "Delayed" statement
11:20.51webjamesi recon hads is right
11:21.12alorilalso it might be that they don't yet have P1+ (gta02) details (I suspect this might be keeping core team most busy, at least that is how I read "the coreteam is working on the hardware")
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11:22.40alorilumm.. so 1) P1 not yet ready for ordering (even if they are produced) + 2) above -> want to wait few days so can do both
11:23.42alorilanyway, last 2 lines are almost pure speculation of course
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11:24.27sativewill the neo1973 also support doubill? (means, one SIM - two numbers/PINs)
11:24.27alorilsative: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
11:24.46sativeah =)
11:25.12alorilCM: yeah, it would suck to be plastered accross /., Digg with delay news and then few days after Ordering page being up
11:27.51xkr47:)
11:28.23alorilsure they will be able to produce a lot more in June (hopefully), but I don't want to wait another 2-4 weeks
11:29.16CMI'm moving this weekend, so I'm not really in a hurry yet. ;)
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11:52.27sixfeettach alle zsamman
11:52.43sixfeetcounter
11:52.43alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 60%) P1: 2 days 12:03:51 (2.503 +-2.5 days) (1353;221)
11:53.17sixfeethmm looked for the phone ... but it isn`t avaliable ?!
11:53.52sixfeet" P1: 2 days" <-- *fg*
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11:54.40CMmorning ;)
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12:02.57fletchsixfeet: dont count on these 2 days ;)
12:03.50ar1morning :)
12:03.53sixfeetgg
12:04.28sixfeetis there a european shop .. link or so ?
12:04.53fletchno
12:05.01sixfeet;(
12:05.25fletchu can buy it from openmoko.com when orders r accepted
12:06.01ar1excuseme, can i pay wiht credit card?
12:07.29fletchnope, only eggs and apples accepted ;)
12:07.31sixfeetpaypal should work
12:08.32ar1hehehehe
12:09.27sativethe mailinglistthread doesn't answer to me %)
12:09.41sativeanybody knows, if there is dualsim support?
12:10.17sixfeettripplesim *g*
12:10.26sativemh?
12:10.43sativeone sim, two pins/numbers
12:10.54sativeprivat/business
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12:12.07sixfeetahh ok
12:12.21sixfeetthought of two cards ;)
12:13.10sativemy provider is vodafone
12:13.22sativeand the feature is mentioned "DouBill"
12:13.44Lorphosbtw one fact mentioned at the LUG BS was that the current hardware short-circuits if there is no SIM card inserted.. scary
12:15.05sativecm me, too. only that it looks well ;)
12:15.28CMI suspect it's for tax reasons
12:16.41stefan_schmidtLorphos: That was for the GTA01bv3 deployed as P0 mobiles. GTA01bv4 deployed as P1 don't has this problem anymore.
12:17.00Lorphosah, glad to hear
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12:19.24ynezzLorphos: how can be prototype/sample's issue scary? ;)
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12:20.36ynezzI think, it's scary when found in P2 or later device...
12:22.12SpeedEvilThe P1 is _meant_ to be stable hardware.
12:22.17SpeedEvilWith no serious bugs.
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12:23.34SpeedEvil<PROTECTED>
12:23.42SpeedEvil_fade
12:23.43SpeedEviloops
12:25.26SpeedEvilThe software is assumed to be a bit broken.
12:25.30SpeedEvilWhich is fixable.
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12:34.27kineycounter
12:34.27alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 60%) P1: 2 days 11:42:58 (2.488 +-2.5 days) (1354;221)
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12:37.35kineyI heard that Phase 1+ and Phase 2 will be the same hardware, only with different software.
12:37.38kineyIs that true?
12:39.26guaquaobviously
12:39.38guaquafor the second point
12:39.42guaquano idea for the first point
12:42.36hrwsame or nearly same
12:42.36kineySo if I buy P1+ I can update to P2 later?
12:42.36hrwno idea, rather not
12:42.37hrwI think that p1+ <> p2 difference will be really minimal
12:42.37guaquakiney: the idea of the phone is that you can run _any_ software on it
12:42.45guaquaso it's not an issue if P2 has different built-in software stack
12:43.06kineysounds good
12:43.25alorilor update to P3 (I guess they will keep updating software after launch ;-)
12:44.02guaquai'm going to be running my own guasbetterthanyoursembeddedlinux on my neo anyway :|
12:44.25guaquaand with a higher version number, it's going to be 2010 when openmoko is stuck at 2007 :>
12:44.32kiney*lol*
12:46.24ynezzi'm porting windows ce 6.0 to neo already
12:46.36ynezzso there will be choice ;p
12:47.04kineyhow can you port windows ce without the source code?
12:47.07xkr47it's impossible! windows ce supports only proprietary hardware .D
12:48.50rwhitbymaybe he works for M$
12:49.18SpeedEvilkiney: The point is that OpenMoko is a linux distribution, with the aim of supporting all phones. It just requires drivers for hardware - which are linux kernel drivers generally - and customising for resolution/keys.
12:49.50SpeedEvilkiney: And that bugs fixed or applications created for any openmoko phone will run on any other.
12:50.16SpeedEvilThough they may not - but only for similar reasons that you can't run google earth on a PII/300
12:51.23kineyand P1 and P1+ will be stable hardware?
12:51.33SpeedEvilThe hardware is meant to be stable.
12:51.37SpeedEvilBug-free.
12:51.49kineyok
12:51.49balrog-kunall hardware is meant to be stable and none really is
12:51.54SpeedEvilThe software is expected to need updating to get a workable phone.
12:51.56balrog-kunso that question has no answer
12:52.19balrog-kunall hardware and software inherently has bugs
12:52.22SpeedEvilbalrog-kun: But if you sell _Too_ buggy hardware, then the users will simply return them.
12:52.44balrog-kunSpeedEvil: if you give a warranty, yea :)
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12:53.08SpeedEvilIf the hardware I get is too unstable, I am returning it.
12:53.38SpeedEvilIf there are software workarounds, hardware bugs bother me less.
12:54.02SpeedEvilBut bugs like the P0 ones are not acceptable.
12:55.37balrog-kuni'm not used to the possibility of returning things
12:55.48balrog-kunmaybe because i never bought new hardware
12:56.11koenpeople buy hardware?
12:56.15SpeedEvilHowever, from P1 users reports, it sounds mostly fine.
12:56.25CMI've never returned anything either, guess I'm just lucky :)
12:56.33kineyThere are P1 users?
12:56.42SpeedEvilA few.
12:56.45SpeedEvil50ish
12:56.46balrog-kunyes
12:56.47SpeedEvilmaybe more
12:56.50guaquaas long as gsm, bluetooth and gprs work...i'm happy
12:57.14guaquathat's as much as my current phone does, but in a freely customizable form
12:57.15CMAnd they seem to work
12:57.34SpeedEvilguaqua: the software is almost certainly not as good - in general yet.
12:57.35balrog-kunguaqua: that means pretty much "as long as everything works"
12:57.44CMBtw, have anyone tried gprs on a P1?
12:57.52SpeedEvilguaqua: But you can run xterm at 80x25 if you feel like it.
12:57.59sativecm  its not really for tax reasons. i can also use my 'businesspart' for privat calls. but on the weekend, i can 'switch the business off' =)
12:58.02balrog-kunbecause to make use of any of these you need working LCD, charging, suspend/resume and averything is pulled into this sentence
12:58.26CMsative: Is it the same number or two different ones?
12:58.47SpeedEvilsative: There is the possibility to do PBX type things on the phone.
12:59.31SpeedEvilIf number in group X, or number called is Y, and time is outside period Z, play 'not accepting call' message
13:00.08guaquaSpeedEvil, balrog-kun: should have added the word hardware there. for software - i'm expecting the community to pick up the stuff they don't see going the right way
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13:00.20SpeedEvilYeah.
13:00.30guaquai.e. might duplicate the work fic and the core team hasn't done right and do it better
13:00.52guaquabasically counting on the critical mass to get the development going at the right pace
13:00.54sativetwo different ones. if i logged into "business", i get calls from both numbers. when im logged privat, im only receiving privatcalls.
13:01.11SpeedEvilThere needs to be a proper 'projects people are working on' page
13:01.33guaquaprojects.openmoko.org isn't sufficient...it's too rigid
13:01.39SpeedEvilTo avoid duplication.
13:01.40jsheldonwill openmoko's packages always be in the form of <name>_<version>+svnYYYYMMDD-r<revision>?
13:01.40aloriljsheldon: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
13:01.46sativespeedevil  nice. like asterisk running on it?
13:01.48SpeedEvilI mean maybe a tag on the application page on the wiki
13:01.58SpeedEvilsative: full asterisk may or may not be overkill.
13:02.06sativeok =)
13:02.19sativebut pbxappl
13:02.27SpeedEvilapplication:music_player has a 'implementors' tag
13:02.33SpeedEvilfor example
13:02.56SpeedEvilWhich links to application:music_player:implementation
13:03.21balrog-kunguaqua: you still need all the other hardware working to make any use of the GSM/GPS
13:03.28sativespeedevil  do you know, if there is dualsim support?
13:03.47sativeone sim, two numbers
13:03.56SpeedEvilAlas, no. I _think_ so - as I understand it, this is simply a network feature.
13:04.51sativehmm
13:05.03SpeedEvilAnd the :implementation page has comments from people working on it.
13:05.27sativebut its a special sim, with two pins
13:05.34sativePINs
13:09.30sativeyou mean a simcard only holds the network and the number(s) and dualfeature come from the network?
13:12.45guaquabalrog-kun: true. let's just cross our fingers and hope for the perfect hardware :)
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13:18.19balrog-kuni didn't notice any major annoyances with the P1, except the software :p
13:18.33balrog-kunbut i didn't really have time to update the software yet
13:18.45balrog-kunupdate/change entirely
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13:22.03guaquasounds good
13:23.03jsheldonwhere does SRCDATE get set for openmoko packages?
13:24.10stefan_schmidtjsheldon: conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc
13:24.51jsheldonstefan_schmidt: a-ha!  perfect, thanks very much
13:25.00stefan_schmidtjsheldon: np
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13:34.49ar1hello..
13:35.30ar1i'm trying to find where i can buy the openmoko...
13:35.41ar1but i did not
13:36.07Stephmwbecause you can't, yet
13:36.14alorilar1: subscribe to announce mailing list and wait for announcement about availability at openmoko.com
13:36.20alorilfaq?
13:36.20alorilSee http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ
13:36.47ar1but i want the developers moko ;)
13:36.53Stephmwaloril: you need to add somenatural language processing to your bot...
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13:37.43alorilar1: that is Phase 1, same answer, see Neo1973 page linked from FAQ
13:37.49alorilStephmw: ;-)
13:38.17ar1ok...
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13:40.59pjzcounter
13:41.00alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 60%) P1: 2 days 11:09:42 (2.465 +-2.5 days) (1355;221)
13:42.15CIA-23openmoko: 03thomas * r2109 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-today/ (ChangeLog configure.ac src/today-main.c):
13:42.15CIA-23openmoko: * configure.ac:
13:42.15CIA-23openmoko: * src/today-main.c: (today_infoline_new): Add startup-notification support
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14:13.00CMLaF0rge: Any slight glimmer of hope for a public announcement soon? :)
14:14.19Stephmwwoops! sorry :)
14:15.05guaqua-.-. --- .-. . - . .- --
14:15.25Stephmwguaqua: from which perspective?
14:15.44guaquai guess my motives are the same :)
14:15.55LaF0rgebe assured that we literally spend every second of our awake time in this project. sean is working 18hours per day for many, many months.
14:16.56CMLaF0rge: We know and apprecieate it. Don't know how you do it, but thanks :)
14:18.14StephmwLaF0rge: are you implying by your use of 'awake time' that there's non-awake time?
14:19.34SpeedEvilI think the only complaint about delays that anyone has is the delay in confirming delays.
14:20.37LaF0rgethe problem is that whatever we try to do or do, way too many things are out of our hands.
14:20.58guaquayou have to think from their perspective. telling about the delays would only make it to the press sooner
14:21.11CMYes, and better no press than bad press
14:21.19guaquathat's what i'd say
14:21.22LaF0rgeso rather than to make another anouncement about a date that somebody inside FIC or some upstream vendor fucks up, I would actually prefer not to make any annoumcenents
14:22.08LaF0rgeI don't care that much about bad press.  I care about we not being able to commit to something that later on people outside of our control will inevitably make impossible.  
14:22.38koenLaF0rge: that's why google never announce their products, they release "when it's ready"
14:23.28CIA-23openmoko: 03thomas * r2110 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-today/ (ChangeLog src/today-main.c):
14:23.28CIA-23openmoko: * src/today-main.c: (today_update_date), (today_infoline_new),
14:23.28CIA-23openmoko: (today_launcher_button_new): Run appropriate program when an infoline is
14:23.28CIA-23openmoko: clicked
14:27.48sanneshm, neo1973 has been annonced for quite a while, unfortunatly with dates :P Thing is, some updates to what is delaying will atleast makes us feel that it isn't vaporware .. I peronally don't need any conclusive dates, but a little bit of updates would be good ..
14:28.05SpeedEvilIndeed.
14:28.39LaF0rgebelieve me, if there was anything to update, we would update it
14:28.43LaF0rgethere is nothing to update
14:28.46SpeedEvilA note indicating progress - even if it's backwards progress - is good.
14:29.02sannesnot even a "it is progressing" ?
14:29.20LaF0rgethere is no noticable progress on GTA01.  it's still being moved into MP
14:29.53LaF0rgeI don't know any more about that than everyone else ;)
14:30.27LaF0rgeI don't know if there are any issues, what those issues might be, when we will have the devices, etc.
14:30.34LaF0rgeSo there's nothing to announce.
14:30.48guaquais there any information on the production runs, i.e. how many devices will be produced?
14:30.49LaF0rgewelcome to china ;)
14:31.14LaF0rgethings might happen or not. people may actually do what the promise or not.  
14:31.16sannesso the update is "we are still waiting on mass production"
14:31.27guaquamight happen or not :F
14:32.10LaF0rgethings you order might actually be what you ordered or not.
14:32.23LaF0rgeand they might actually, eventually ship to you, definitely never at the date that was agreed upon
14:32.29LaF0rgeit's not like in europe/us ;)
14:32.36SpeedEvilIs the facility FICs, or a subcontractor?
14:32.37guaquasounds like an ugly place for a german to be working in...the expectation of stuff happening...the normal way ;)
14:33.04LaF0rgeit's FICs factory.
14:34.49alorilah, so no devices at all *yet*: once they are produced and before they will be available for actual shipping: I guess there will be some announcement?
14:36.02SpeedEvilWith nice brass fittings.
14:36.09LaF0rgeI _suppose_ there are something like 500 units now somewhere.
14:36.30aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
14:36.30LaF0rgebut I will not let them ship any of those before I personally have done QA on something like 10% samples
14:36.42aloril500 units produced at late May?
14:37.30alorilsounds like progress in any case (good news)
14:37.52LaF0rgeyou don't know if they produced 500 bricks. there are _so_ many things that can go wrong
14:38.20alorilstill it raises hopes ;-)
14:38.38SpeedEvilI'm going with my 'it's being produced in Narnia, and there are problems with the wardrobe door' explanation.
14:39.43ossmanLaF0rge, I intend to clean up the mmc driver in the next few days. do you need incremental patches or is it acceptable with a new s3mci.patch that contains the entire thing?
14:40.47LaF0rgeossman: one single replacement is fine, though a diff old->new would also be useful for review purpose
14:41.32ossmanLaF0rge, sure. I'll just post both to the list
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14:42.27guaquaCM: you've put hexinput in the buying interest list
14:42.35guaquaCM: have you done anything related to it?
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14:50.20ElrondBTW: buildhost has kernel images with 2.6.* and 2.6-* what's the difference?
14:52.23guaquaand has someone though of how the screen locking is done?
14:52.24alorilLaF0rge: thanks answering questions, vague update is better than no information
14:52.27guaquaor key locking in general
14:52.41LaF0rgeelrond: some 'OE artefact', I never understood why the kernel is built twice (gta01-kernel and linux-gta01)
14:53.19ElrondLaF0rge - So in theory those with the same svn-rev and r[0-9] should be idenitcal?
14:53.25LaF0rgeyes
14:53.43ElrondAhh, good. :-)
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14:56.54pavelmHello, everyone.
14:57.37*** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo)
14:57.52ElrondHi pavelm :)
14:59.00pavelmgps now works on phase0 openmoko, good.
14:59.14pavelm...but audio still does not (sw problem, it used to work)
14:59.21*** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@66.120.92.34)
14:59.22pavelm...any ideas how to get it to work?
14:59.47pavelm...ouch and someone replaced main menu with evil, non functional today screen in may-30 version ;-)
15:01.13ElrondOkay... now I know for real, why I keep m old rootfs and update only selected packages by hand. ;)
15:01.20Rince*g*
15:01.23Elrondsound: Hmm, I'll try that at home. ;)
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15:02.22pavelmelrond: what is the magic way to update ipkgs?
15:02.33ElrondRince - It mostly works and when I show the thing to peope, thwey can actually play a little with it. ;)
15:02.55Rincewell - apparently no one will have one on the GPN tomorrow so I won't see it there ;)
15:03.03Elrondpavelm - I do it very by hand: download them from buildhost and scp them to phone, then ipkg install file.ipk
15:03.16ElrondGPN?
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15:03.46RinceGPN == "Gulasch Programmier Nacht" - Entropia, CCC Karlsruhe has a meeting over the weekend with ~200 hackers apparently
15:04.14ElrondAhhh. A friend wanted to get me there... and we missed to organise that for real.
15:05.24Rincedamned
15:05.26Rincejust come over ;)
15:05.26LuitvDI'm freeeeeeee :D
15:05.39ElrondRince - It's the whole weekend?
15:05.40atlaw00t
15:05.41atlanice
15:05.45atlawhere is it Rince?
15:05.47atlathe meeting
15:06.16RinceElrond: yes, it is
15:06.21Rinceatla: Karlsruhe, University
15:06.40atlaah
15:06.41atlanice
15:06.46atlathats not far away :D
15:07.04ElrondYeah, I could come saturday for a few hours.
15:07.26atlai guess by train its about 40min :)
15:07.40atlaa trip to karlsruhe would be nice, is there an entrance fee?
15:07.46amarsh04SpeedEvil, from 2 hours ago, I've run Google Earth on a PII-266
15:08.12pH5pavelm: what was needed to get gps going on p0?
15:08.29atlaRince is there some openmoko related stuff on that event?
15:08.31pavelmph5: New enough kernel, and gllin from phase1.
15:08.33ElrondpH5 - Newer kernel.
15:08.40pH5oh, great.
15:08.47RinceElrond: I won't be there Saturday afternoon since I will attend a birthday party...
15:08.50ElrondpH5 - BTW: I tried to port your hhtest.c to python. I failed.... :-|
15:08.54Rinceatla: unfortunately no afaik
15:09.03ElrondRince - :-(
15:09.12atlawould be cool if anyone with a p0 showed up ;)
15:09.16Rincehttp://entropia.de/wiki/GPN6
15:09.17atlaRince from where are you?
15:09.21Rinceatla: Stuttgart
15:09.27atlaok :)
15:09.28RinceElrond: I'll be there the evening and the morning ;)
15:09.41Elrondatla - I was considering to show up with "my" p0. But if Rince isn't there...
15:09.57RinceElrond: do you know when (time) you would be there?
15:09.57atlaill be there :P
15:09.58Rinceroundabout?
15:10.04Rinceatla: you will? great!
15:10.05atlamaybe ;)
15:10.11atlaits not far
15:10.17ElrondRince - I think, about 14-19 or so.
15:10.18LaF0rgeif somebody tells me an address I could send an express packet
15:10.33LaF0rgewhy doesn't anyone tell us beforehand :(
15:10.34RinceElrond: ok.
15:10.39RinceLaF0rge: I asked here ;=)
15:10.50LaF0rgeyeah. on a public irc channel. great.
15:11.00RinceLaF0rge: if you really want to, you could send it here to my work and I'll take it with me
15:11.08LaF0rgenow its too late to send it today, i.e. it would only arrive on saturday :(
15:11.15RinceLaF0rge: Sorry. I thought if someone would be interested in having it there he would answer here ;)
15:11.28RinceLaF0rge: Hm. just a minute...
15:11.51LaF0rgerince: _nobody_ responsible  has time to read IRC for more than 20mins per week, if at all
15:11.52cjbLaF0rge: Hi, would you be a good person to moderate a community@ post I made yesterday?  Sorry for the trouble.
15:12.08RinceLaF0rge: ok ;)
15:12.21LaF0rgecjb: the listmaster will take care of it. if not, contact *-owner@lists or directly at chtsai@openmoko.org
15:12.27cjbThanks.
15:13.59pavelmwhat is the name of gpe-mainmenu (not openmoko-mainmenu)?
15:14.01LuitvDhey LaF0rge :) haven't seen you in a while
15:14.29LuitvDLaF0rge: i wanted to ask you something about those HXD8 patches, of which you seem to have written some...
15:14.35ElrondRince - {14:32 KA Hbf} looks like a possible arrival time.
15:15.22Clintkarlsruhe hauptbahnhof
15:15.27SpeedEvilamarsh04: Wacky. When I tried it on my PII/300, it diddn't want to know.
15:15.32pH5pavelm: matchbox-desktop?
15:15.41SpeedEvilamarsh04: Maybe I should try a more recent version.
15:15.56pavelmph5: Yes, thanks. Hmm, it starts in small font now.
15:16.30pavelm...huh, I guess I've to go.
15:16.56amarsh04it barely ran on my PII-266, so I just use google maps instead and try google earth on my stepdaughters dual core laptop under windows xp
15:17.51amarsh04back later
15:18.17LuitvDLaF0rge: are you there?
15:18.50LaF0rgelui: no, sorry. I'm short before a heartattack.
15:18.53ElrondI guess, those were the 20minutes/week ;o)
15:19.02*** part/#openmoko LaF0rge (n=laforge@berligate.hmw-consulting.de)
15:19.25LuitvDmeh, that sucks
15:19.39LuitvDhad a rather good question for him...
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15:20.18ElrondLuitvD - What sort of question?  possible bug?
15:20.27LuitvDElrond: yes
15:21.18pavelmbye!
15:21.19LuitvD[eating]I'm gone too then...
15:26.25aloril2LuitvD: don't ask to ask: just ask: better chance in getting answer
15:27.10SuNI don't know, an unannounced question might just trigger that heart attack :D
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16:01.26aloril2s:hope:hopes:
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16:02.24antenagoracounter
16:02.25alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 60%) P1: 2 days 09:59:00 (2.416 +-2.4 days) (1356;221)
16:02.35TRIsoftgtg, cu
16:03.16*** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@251.9.39-62.rev.gaoland.net)
16:03.55SpeedEvilIMO, add a couple of weeks on.
16:04.07*** join/#openmoko jeddy3__ (n=data@h-193-67.A148.cust.bahnhof.se)
16:07.10LuitvDSpeedEvil: couple of weeks? for P1 you mean?
16:07.26LuitvDmeh
16:07.32SpeedEvils/pessimi/real/
16:07.56LuitvDrealst? :P
16:08.32LuitvD:)
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16:14.16PBeckahoi
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16:14.41ewono/
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16:20.39buzadd it's done when it's done
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16:21.26buzand who knows if the next revision has a gpu we might get to play duke nukem 4
16:21.53Stephmwbuz: I heard it'll be powerful enough to play Duke Nukem Forever
16:22.00Stephmwbuz: and released only 2 weeks afterwards
16:23.54kineycounter
16:23.54alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 60%) P1: 2 days 09:48:15 (2.409 +-2.4 days) (1357;221)
16:25.15CIA-23openmoko: 03laforge * r2111 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-hxd8.patch: Fix NAND chip selection for HXD8
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16:26.06aloril2SpeedEvil: I'll move some of probability to next part instead and keep scenario 1 as 'if all goes well one'
16:28.44aloril2if goes well: about <=week, if things happen, but not optimally: 1-3 weeks
16:30.31aloril2maybe half chance for both and together maybe 2/3 chance?
16:30.55SpeedEvilI don't think the counter means much ATM.
16:32.18SpeedEvilIf it all goes right, and they are simply delaying announcement till the last coat of beeswax on the presentation boxes dries, it could be tomorrow. If the mass production goes wrong in the first batch, it could be weeks.
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16:36.20aloril2SpeedEvil: did you read what laforge said? Tomorrow sounded unlikely
16:37.14SpeedEvilHe also said he wasn't in the loop. AIUI.
16:38.31SpeedEvil'I don't know anything more about it than anyone else"/
16:39.36aloril2yes, but he wanted to test 10% of them personally: "supposedly 500 somewhere" -> test at least 10% -> shipping doesn't sound like would happen in a day in optimistic case
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16:41.49SpeedEvilDiddn't see that.
16:43.53aloril2in any case it did sound like it in theory could happen in few days or at other extreme there are 500 brick units (or even nothing)
16:44.36aloril2optimistic in me thinks that my unit already exits and just needs to pass QA ;-)
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16:46.29don-ocounter
16:46.29alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 60%) P1: 2 days 09:36:57 (2.401 +-2.4 days) (1358;221)
16:47.53parag0nheh, remeber when we thought we were going to get the neo before the iPhone release?
16:48.16xkr47parag0n, you sound like it's 20 years later now :D
16:48.38don-oparag0n: those were the days.
16:48.40parag0nto be fair, it may as well be :P
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16:49.40aloril2parag0n: it could still happen ;-)
16:50.17LuitvDwho still thinks it'll be this month? the announce?
16:50.36don-oLuitvD: 'this month' has about 12 hours left in it.
16:50.43LuitvDyup
16:51.03LuitvDbut that could be enough for the announce, couldn't it?
16:51.11don-oLuitvD: 8-ball says: "not bloody likely"
16:51.16don-oLuitvD: what do you mean by 'the announce'?
16:51.18LuitvDheheh
16:51.33LuitvDthe announcement about the devices, that they're for sale...
16:51.46xkr47don-o, strangely, my 8ball said no as well :P
16:51.52LuitvD:)
16:51.52don-oxkr47: ha
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16:52.18LuitvDlol, laforge fixed the bug I wanted to tell him about just when he left
16:52.41LuitvDnoticed some inconsistencies in NAND chip selection
16:53.01LuitvDlet's see what he did to it
16:53.06aloril2He is telepathic ;-)
16:53.33LuitvDyeah, I guess he is
16:53.40Rince*g*
16:53.43xkr47or maybe he has an 8ball too :)
16:53.47LuitvDquite scary actually :)
16:54.22LuitvDor he tested the patch on an HXD8 already... :?
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16:57.27SpeedEvilI don't recall any announce that said "may".
16:57.38SpeedEvilI just recall the announce of the runs on the 10th, 20th.
16:57.46SpeedEvilAnd the announce of the delay on the run.
16:58.12LuitvDSpeedEvil: and his 'being told may is still possible'
16:58.58SpeedEvilTrue. I'm not sure I can make accurate predictions. I've lost my magic-8-ball.
17:00.03LuitvDdon't like predictions... I like planning... XD
17:01.14ElrondLuitvD - If you have a possible bug (what you wanted to ask Lafroge), just file a bug, and set the title appropiately. :)
17:01.38LuitvDElrond: welll, I wasn't that sure about it, that's why I wanted to ask him...
17:01.55LuitvDElrond: and now I see it wasn't necessary
17:02.05LuitvDbecause he most likely already noticed
17:02.08LuitvDor just mind-read
17:05.01ElrondLuitvD - hehe. ;)
17:10.01aloril2SpeedEvil: it actually sounded like current situation is normal with chinese
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17:19.12ElrondSpeedEvil - My friend has a magic-8-watch. ;o)
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17:20.48ElrondSpeedEvil - If that doesn't already exist... it should be written. ;o)
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18:23.04ElrondOkay, so who wanted to know, how the Neo is in the Sun?
18:23.45Magoni want
18:23.50SpeedEvils/psuedopod/hand/
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18:24.49ElrondMagon - http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/
18:25.12Magonand i am not the one who wanted..i just want to know
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18:26.02Magonyou had sunny afternoon?
18:26.20ElrondMagon - Yep, yesterday and today. :-)
18:26.33Magon:-)
18:26.39ElrondWell, the pics are from yesterday morning.
18:26.55SpeedEvilNot unexpected.
18:27.20SpeedEvilYou need a hell of a lot of power to display in the sunlight.
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18:27.55SpeedEvilOr reflection of course.
18:28.08Magoni hate reflection on laptops
18:28.18SpeedEvilreflective mode I mean.
18:28.38Magonthere are some laptops with reflective screen
18:28.49balrog-kunthey could take the LCDs from the OLPC machines
18:28.49SpeedEvilYeah - it can be a better option.
18:28.51Magonand yes..you can see something in sun..mostly yourself
18:29.04SpeedEvilBut you have to position it very carefully.
18:29.08SpeedEvilWearing black helps :)
18:29.45*** join/#openmoko lynx (n=lynx@port-87-234-114-48.dynamic.qsc.de)
18:29.47ElrondMagon - Right. I also have a bad pic with Neo only showing black and me taking the photo. ;o)
18:30.01balrog-kunthey're $100 each, you could probably cut out at least six Neo displays out of one OLPC display
18:30.12balrog-kunso below $20
18:30.23SpeedEvilYou can't do that.
18:30.26Elrondbalrog-kun - s/100/150/ if I remember the latest news...
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18:30.35balrog-kun$150? o_O
18:30.41SpeedEvilIt - more - or - less works for 40" - 15"
18:30.52SpeedEvilThe price per unit area is fairly constant.
18:31.06SpeedEvilBut once you get below 14" or so, it really breaks down.
18:31.53balrog-kunhow do you mean breaks down?
18:32.18balrog-kunElrond: lucky you
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18:32.21balrog-kunit's raining all day here
18:32.45SpeedEvilbalrog-kun: You can more or less say that 20" displays are 1/4 the price of 40"
18:33.00SpeedEvilbalrog-kun: You can't say that 2" displays are 1/100th the cost of 20".
18:33.16balrog-kunSpeedEvil: ah
18:33.30balrog-kunSpeedEvil: you could use scissors
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18:34.38barmeierhi
18:35.34barmeiercounter
18:35.35alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 60%) P1: 2 days 08:42:25 (2.363 +-2.4 days) (1359;221)
18:35.37SpeedEvilNo, barmeier, there is no firm date as to when it will ship.
18:36.08Rince*g+
18:36.18Rincejust stop that damned counter... and wait for the curtain fall ;)
18:36.23Bish:D
18:36.51barmeierhmm, ok I have to wait, patience is my second my name ;)
18:37.17sparqI wonder how long it will be before the LCD design for the XO machine starts turning up in other devices. I have always hated color LCDs in mobile devices, including laptops.
18:37.39SpeedEvilOLED could fundamentally be better.
18:37.47SpeedEvilIf it could get the efficiency up.
18:37.48sparqI would happily sacrifice color and a backlight for readability in all conditions
18:37.51SpeedEvilAnd the life.
18:38.46sparqI like the old fashioned monocrhome liquid crystal displays they use on graphing calculators. I just want a higher resolution version of the screen on the TI-89.
18:39.02SpeedEvilI'd like a cheap neo too.
18:39.04balrog-kunthere was a time when all pr0n had no colours
18:39.14SpeedEvilBT/GSM/256*256 or so.
18:39.23BishSpeedEvil: quality > preis
18:39.24sparqbalrog-kun: yeah -- 1880.
18:39.25SpeedEvilWith the display able to be on all the time.
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18:42.47MetaMorfoziS!counterû
18:42.49MetaMorfoziS!counter
18:42.52MetaMorfoziSi need that link
18:42.55MetaMorfoziSthat printed a week ago with counter
18:42.58MetaMorfoziScan anybody give me that?
18:43.06MetaMorfoziScounter
18:43.06alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 60%) P1: 2 days 08:38:39 (2.360 +-2.4 days) (1360;221)
18:43.07MetaMorfoziSah!
18:43.09MetaMorfoziS:)
18:44.21Bishping
18:44.25Bish?ping
18:44.27Bish? ping grr
18:44.33Bish! ping
18:44.37MetaMorfoziSpong
18:44.38MacNorthpong?
18:44.41Stephmwmindshare question... anyone heard of the BCS, their IT qualifications or their reputation?
18:44.42Bishgut.. darauf hab gewartet
18:44.44ElrondSpeedEvil - You mean like my current phone? The display is on all the time, just no backlight? :)
18:44.44MetaMorfoziSMacNorth: slow:)
18:44.45Stephmw(trying to gauge their reach outside the UK)
18:44.45Bishdacht ich waer geflogen
18:45.32Bisharghs sorry.. wrong channel
18:45.50MacNorththe acronym isn't familiar
18:50.32sparqElrond: I love my t39m mostly because it doesn't have a color screen, so I can read it very easily in sunlight. That's why I've refused to replace it, dispite T-Mobile throwing free phones at me for two years now.
18:51.26SpeedEvilElrond: my current phone is a nk3300
18:51.33univact39 is the best phone ever
18:51.36SpeedEvil30*40mm b+w display.
18:51.40sparqThe top drawer in my office contains a little graveyard of phones that I refuse to use.
18:51.56Elrondsparq - ME45 here.
18:52.48ewonI have a 6230i
18:52.55ewondoes the job
18:52.59ewonbattery life could be better
18:53.42sparqIf I don't buy a Neo, I'm going to buy another t39m off of eBay for $15. ^_^
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18:53.56Elrondsparq - ;o)
18:55.20happycubefor $15 you could probably still afford a neo ;)
18:55.42ElrondRince - BTW: When will you leave / return to GPN on Saturday?
18:56.11sparqMy only complain about the t39m is that it is beige.
18:56.26SuNMy only complaint would be the huge antenna.
18:56.26ElrondRince - And other thing: I don't have my build env / other neo-tools on a laptop, just on my big desktop at home. ;)
18:56.32sparqhappycube: Quite possibly. ^_^
18:56.45RinceElrond: I will at least be there the beginning you're coming
18:56.56RinceI will come back later that day. Or cancel that birthday party, don't know yet
18:57.13RinceElrond: I have a qemu-System on my laptop, do you need more?
18:57.14ElrondRince - Ahh. Is there any entrance fee?
18:57.32RinceElrond: if you have enough money they ask for a gift by 15¤
18:57.39ElrondRince - Well, dfu-util is nice, if one wants to boot a newer kernel. ;)
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19:22.23buzmhh the magic 8 ball app needs an accelerometer
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19:24.09Elrondbuz - *lol*
19:24.25buzand physics engine
19:24.41buzyou could also play yatzee then
19:25.29Rince*G*
19:25.35ElrondOh, DFU in action for everybody who never wanted to see u-boot on the neo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/523490336/ ;o)
19:27.09buzhttp://www.ftrain.com/robot_exclusion_protocol.html rofl
19:27.41balrog-kuni believe there should be ways to flash a new kernel/u-boot/splash from under a running Linux
19:28.12cjbStephmw: I hate the BCS.  :)
19:28.23balrog-kunrootfs may be a problem because it needs to be formatted as jffs2, but the other stuff should work with just scp and writing to /dev/mtblock
19:31.07ElrondRight.
19:31.28Elrondbalrog-kun - I just don't flash. I load the kernel into RAM and then boot it. :-)
19:33.12balrog-kunah okay
19:33.49balrog-kunwell, that can be also done from under Linux :)
19:33.55balrog-kun- using kexec()
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19:36.33Elrondhehe, yeah. ;)
19:36.50Stephmwcjb: any particular reason?
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19:38.00cjbStephmw: one of their drones came to my university and gave a talk about how Windows 3.1 was the pinnacle of personal computing and how he refused to update to anything newer.
19:38.09cjband I think he said something bad about Linux, too.
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19:38.32cjbbut just the idea of a computing body that doesn't believe computing is getting better is, well, too dumb to live.
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19:47.19LuitvDhmm, maybe the miCard standard is something to consider for the next-gen openmoko device from FIC...
19:47.20LuitvDlooks like it's a more open standard then SD
19:47.21SpeedEvilmicard?
19:47.59LuitvDsome new standard from the multimediacard association
19:48.19LuitvD60MB/s throuput :D
19:48.37SpeedEvilah
19:48.38LuitvDs/put/ghput/
19:48.50LuitvDbecause of it's 16-bit bus
19:48.54LuitvDhttp://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199703805&cid=RSSfeed_eetimes_newsRSS
19:49.35don-ovendor-lockin is advantageous in a cell phone.
19:49.43don-os/advantageous/despicable
19:49.49don-os/advantageous/despicable/
19:49.54don-oheh :)
19:49.58balrog-kunhaha
19:49.59LuitvDlolz
19:50.05LuitvD"Eventually, miCard throughput will increase to 120Mbytes per second. In labs tests, it's been achieved, but the internal interface of NAND chips remains a bottleneck to achieving such an overall system speed."
19:50.23LuitvD:)
19:51.11LuitvDand it's an USB-like interface
19:51.38LuitvDs/-like//
19:51.41LuitvD:)
19:51.44LuitvDeven better
19:54.43LuitvDhell, the neo even already supports miCard :)
19:56.07buzi still wonder why people didnt go usb when they made new flash standards
19:56.24buzheck there's even USB sim thingies now
19:56.58SpeedEvilusb means clocking
19:57.12SpeedEvilhigh speed pll means power
20:04.43*** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com)
20:06.57SpeedEvilIs there a wya to actually delet a page - not just blank it?
20:07.23*** join/#openmoko Lorphos_ (n=Lorphos@dslb-088-070-091-150.pools.arcor-ip.net)
20:17.45SpeedEvilwiki
20:20.44ElrondHmm. Great... "reboot" and the thing is frozen. It even hangs "lsusb" on my host.
20:21.19ewongood going
20:22.51ElrondAt least pressing the powerbutton for a long time gets it off (I already had to pull the battery once)
20:23.17ewonthe bios in this laptop is so retarded
20:23.47ewonif you attach the secondary battery, it doesn't detect it, and complains about crtical battery status every 5 mins or so
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20:37.30aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Bad_title]] [[Main_Page/zh_cn]]
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20:55.56KragenSitakerwell, actually deleting a NAND page would require a dentist's drill or something
20:55.57KragenSitakerassuming it's even physically contiguous
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21:05.56balrog-kunyou could mark a page as bad though :p
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21:33.39greentux~counter
21:34.17stefan_schmidtcounter
21:34.17alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 60%) P1: 2 days 07:13:07 (2.301 +-2.3 days) (1361;222)
21:35.49greentuxhi stefan_schmidt , also in berlin?
21:36.05greentuxwe have the latest mai hours :)
21:36.31alphaonegreentux: We're coming tomorrow
21:36.33stefan_schmidtgreentux: We start tomorrow at 8:00. Hope we come right to the GPEPhone talk from Nils
21:36.43stefan_schmidtalphaone: Ah, you are awake
21:37.07greentuxok. fine.
21:37.16alphaonestefan_schmidt: Yeah
21:37.22greentuxfrom hamburg?
21:37.30stefan_schmidtgreentux: Braunschweig
21:37.31alphaonefrom Braunschweig
21:37.55greentuxah ok. 2h... fast
21:38.13alphaonegreentux: more like 2.5h...
21:38.29alphaoneBut we'll see. I'm driving ;-)
21:38.34stefan_schmidtalphaone: Only because you drive. ;)
21:38.35greentuxright, nils starts 11 I think...
21:38.41stefan_schmidtyeah, 11
21:39.22stefan_schmidtalphaone: btw, it seems I have to spent at least one hour on my study paper during the trip.
21:39.50alphaonestefan_schmidt: Oh... He didn't give in to your proposal?
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21:41.31stefan_schmidtalphaone: NO, tuesday is fine, but I did not spent as much time as I like today
21:41.32stefan_schmidtBTW, both talks, OpenMoko and OpenEZX, were accepted at MDD 07.
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21:42.59alphaonecool
21:43.01pavelmHello, everyone.
21:43.07ElrondHi alphaone and pavelm :)
21:43.14stefan_schmidthi pavelm
21:43.19ElrondHi stefan_schmidt :)
21:43.21pavelm...took a openmoko for a trip. Gps worked for 3.5hours, transmitting data via bluetooth.
21:43.35Elrond(upgrading single packages is as bad as anything. ;o) )
21:43.38stefan_schmidtalphaone: my name directly under Dr. Michael Lauer :)
21:43.42pavelm...I wonder if cpu can sleep while gps is powered up?
21:44.08Elrondpavelm - You need cpu in full speed to do BT.
21:44.28greentuxstefan_schmidt:  mdd?
21:44.43stefan_schmidtgreentux: Mobile Developer Days in Denmark
21:44.53greentuxoh
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21:44.55stefan_schmidtgreentux: http://mobiledevices.kom.aau.dk/team_and_organization/events/mobile_developer_days_2007/
21:45.05pavelmelrond: That's bad :-(.
21:45.30alphaonehi Elrond, pavelm
21:45.33pavelmelrond: is gps control still possible with cpu off?
21:45.42pavelmHi, alphaone!
21:45.55Elrondpavelm - If you do time travel gps, you can power up BT (and get CPU in full speed) every 30sec or so. ;o)
21:47.26ElrondBTW: Does the backlight work with 2108 on Bv04?
21:47.31sixfeethttp://biboz.net/humor/linux.jpg
21:48.17pavelmstefan: I do not think we are threat for Motorola...
21:48.54stefan_schmidtpavelm: I'm talking about my OpenEZX talk. Freeing Motorola linux 2.4 phones. :)
21:49.51pavelm<PROTECTED>
21:50.09pavelm...I wonder if it is time for german hackers to move here? ;-)
21:50.25pavelmstefan: Motorola linux people will not care. OpenEZX only scares their lawyers.
21:50.33stefan_schmidtpavelm: We need our own country it seems
21:50.33pavelmstefan: And FCC and related organizations ;-).
21:51.30stefan_schmidtpavelm: Motorola linux people don't care at all it seems. At least not in my communication channels with them.
21:52.08stefan_schmidtAnyway, another hour of work and sleep afterwards. Night all.
21:52.48pavelmgood night, stefan!
21:53.56SpeedEvilpavelm: bluetooth can't work in slow mode. GPS will get a position in a second.
21:54.08SpeedEvilBut you need to turn the CPU on fully to talk to the USB ports
21:54.17SpeedEvilof which the BT thingy is connected to one.
21:54.39pavelmspeed: Well... GPS will only get position in second _in good conditions_.
21:55.03pavelmspeed: I do not think it is going to be in good conditions for most of my use :-).
21:57.01Elrondstefan_schmidt - Good night.
21:57.38*** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@halls-129-31-82-59.hor.ic.ac.uk)
22:02.09SpeedEvilYeah - good conditions.
22:02.27SpeedEvilYou can probably slow the CPU to slow mode, if you're happy with the BT going off.
22:03.10*** part/#openmoko herbyle (n=pascal@p54A34D60.dip.t-dialin.net)
22:03.36*** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@halls-129-31-82-59.hor.ic.ac.uk)
22:03.58SpeedEvil(and still keep doing GPS positioning.)
22:04.28pavelmGood.
22:04.48pavelmGPS seems to take 10% of cpu... not sure if cpu has enough horsepower in slow mode.
22:05.01mjrsure it has
22:05.11pavelmmjr: Ok ;-)
22:05.27SpeedEvilIt's 12Mhz.
22:05.36SpeedEvilMy garmin GPS has a 386ex16
22:05.38mjrok, wrong recollection
22:05.42SpeedEviland does mapping too.
22:05.50pavelmStrange thing. When I was trying to measure current on phase0 openmoko "turned off" current was only ~1mW.
22:06.00SpeedEvilSounds likely.
22:06.10SpeedEvilThat's probably suspend-RAM current.
22:06.12pavelmspeed; hammerhead takes 10% of arm@200MHz. ...
22:06.32SpeedEvilpavelm: what was the absolute mA figure?
22:06.44SpeedEvilMy estimate was 45mW
22:07.01pavelmspeed: ...but, rumors were that phase0 eat way too much current -- and I did not see that while measuring.
22:07.13pavelmspeed: ...but batteries are eaten as if _you_ are right.
22:07.16SpeedEvilOr another way - what would be the max 'idle' current?
22:07.27SpeedEvilWhat's the meter?
22:07.31pavelmspeed: I'm puzzled. Perhaps my amp meter has too big internal resistance?
22:07.37pavelmspeed: Old analog one.
22:07.41SpeedEvilHmm.
22:07.54pavelmspeed: it was ~250uA for powered off openmoko.
22:08.03pavelmspeed: NOt sure what you mean by 'max idle'.
22:08.11SpeedEvilAnalog meters tend to be not horribly bad at averaging currents.
22:08.34SpeedEvilI mean what's the 'powered on, cpu active but not running cpu heavy processes, screen off' figure
22:09.44SpeedEvilOr have you written down the measurements somewhere?
22:09.52*** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com)
22:10.06SpeedEvilAIUI. The excess power figure seems likely to only happen in slow mode - if it does go into that mode at all.
22:10.42SpeedEvilThe fast PLLs do not turn off, and they use lots of useless power in slow mode.
22:10.53SpeedEvilSlow mode is not 'off' mode - which may be suspend-RAM mode.
22:11.02pavelmspeed: 'powered on, cpu idle, backlight on' was ~1W.
22:11.19pavelmspeed: 'powered on, cpu computing, backlight on' was ~1.4W.
22:11.38SpeedEvilSo GPS is ~.1W?
22:11.50SpeedEvilWhat's the backlight on/off delta?
22:12.11SpeedEvilOh - and is this a P1, or P0?
22:12.20pavelmspeed: Well, gps is 10% cpu as seen on top.
22:12.26pavelmspeed: Power measurements were done on P0.
22:12.54pavelmspeed: So.. when I power it off, as in "off", it could still have reasonably low power consumption?
22:13.02pavelmspeed: It drains batteries even while off :-(.
22:13.26SpeedEvilpavelm: Odd.
22:13.31Magonit have no 'really off' mode ?
22:13.32SpeedEvilIt _should_.
22:13.44SpeedEvilThe suspend-RAM mode should be very low in power use.
22:13.58SpeedEvilOdd.
22:14.18SpeedEvilI can't get _anywhere_ near 1.4W from the datasheet figures.
22:14.54pavelmspeed: Do you have hardware near you?
22:14.57SpeedEvilNo.
22:15.06SpeedEvilWell - not as far as I know.
22:15.06Elrondpavelm - Mine doesn't anymore drain the battery a lot, when I power it off. I use "halt" on the shell to do it.
22:15.27SpeedEvilBatteries can be faulty in such a way that they drain.
22:15.51ElrondThe problem in off-mode is the LM-amplifier.
22:16.11SpeedEvilpavelm: the major uncertainty in the power numbers that I guesstimated was the backlight power, which I ballparked at 200mW - from similar devices.
22:16.38SpeedEvilpavelm: So the backlight off - or at 50% figure would be ingeresting, if the hardware is still setup
22:16.57pavelmelrond: Aha... I just power it down by holding power button.
22:17.35pavelmspeed: 200mW for display is too low, I'd say.
22:17.39ElrondNot to mention the gsm... it's also connected directly to the battery. :-(
22:17.43pavelmspeed: ... but I no longer have the setup.
22:17.54SpeedEvilK
22:18.45SpeedEvilThose numbers are odd.
22:19.00SpeedEvil'sleeping with backlight on' - was that displaying an image?
22:20.22*** join/#openmoko zwnj (n=behnam@213.207.210.231)
22:21.23pavelmspeed: No, it just let the backlight on.
22:21.46SpeedEvilAnd the screen went blank almost immediately?
22:21.48SpeedEvilHmm.
22:22.23SpeedEvilWhat does 'sleeping' mean?
22:23.28pavelmspeed: There was "suspend" entry in menu somewhere. Screen actually does fairly interesting graphics while entering that state.
22:24.05SpeedEvilIf the P0 bugs are the ones I think - I think that means that the power used would be 100mW or so.
22:24.26SpeedEvilWhich makes the power used for the screen backlight is 400mW or so.
22:25.15pavelm.4W for screen seems very realistic to me.
22:26.08SpeedEvilIt seems high - based on comparing similar size screens.
22:26.09thomasg__well, the most energy should be needed by the backlight
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22:28.11SpeedEvilFrom other measurements.
22:28.24SpeedEvilThe current extra drawn by the SD should be almost zero.
22:28.44SpeedEvil(compared to .4W increase when 'loading applications'.)
22:29.08SpeedEvilI wonder if memory bandwidth is hurting way more than I estimated.
22:29.38pavelmspeed: apps were loaded from internal flash, not from sd.
22:29.55SpeedEvilShould be the same - it won't use close to .4W
22:30.26SpeedEvilThe datasheet implied that the CPU would use almost the same power when running CPU burning tasks as when 'idle'.
22:31.01SpeedEvilIt needs to be turned into a special 'sleep' mode to have any worthwhile power savings, like AMD durons forex.
22:31.06pavelmspeed: Taking same power idle and computing seems pretty strange to  me.
22:31.20SpeedEvilMy AMD duron practically does.
22:31.31SpeedEvilUnless you switch it into a powersaving mode.
22:31.52SpeedEvilfrom memory - 35W doing md5sum /dev/urandom
22:31.54*** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us)
22:31.59SpeedEvil30W doing idle
22:32.13SpeedEviland 3W in 'stop grant' mode.
22:33.41SpeedEvilI need to do some proper sums on likely RAM bus capacitance, and the consequent loading due to RAM traffic.
22:34.33pavelmspeed: You should really get neo somewhere ;-)
22:37.30aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
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22:39.33wehttambcounter
22:39.33alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 60%) P1: 2 days 06:40:25 (2.278 +-2.3 days) (1362;222)
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22:44.51CoreDump|homere
22:46.26pavelmbalrog: plaing with tui?
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22:46.56balrog-kunpavelm: not yet, at the moment only with "cu"
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22:48.15pavelmbalrog: Ugh ;-)
22:48.27pavelmbalrog: convert from hex to ascii is nontrivial due to 7-bit charset.
22:48.59balrog-kunthe data seems to be nicely 8bit aligned
22:50.11balrog-kunand phone numbers are in cleartext already :)
22:50.59pavelmbalrog: Strange :-)
22:51.03balrog-kunoh, no, they are only advertisements so far
22:51.15balrog-kunnobody sent me any messages :-(
22:51.31pavelmbalrog: scmxx is usable tool for deciphering these...
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23:03.44Elrondbalrog-kun - cu'ing directly to the gsm chip?
23:05.50pH5good night
23:11.55balrog-kunElrond: yep
23:12.04balrog-kunthere are 4 messages that won't decode -_-
23:12.32balrog-kunall 4 start with 05000347020 (hex), i wonder if that may be cyrillics or something
23:12.48balrog-kuntwo of them come from abroad numbers that i can't identify
23:28.44Elrond:-)
23:29.54ElrondI still wonder, if the people commiting to svn ever do a single test before commiting. ;o)
23:29.54Vegarplaying with SMS?
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23:37.30ElrondGood night everybody.
23:38.12happycubeoooh that video accel rumor sounds sweet
23:39.10SpeedEvilI don't want video accell if it adds power usage or cost...
23:39.33SpeedEvilThe only possible app I can see would be something like google maps.
23:40.29balrog-kunright, and at 2" x 2" it doesn't make a difference whether you render at 480x640 or 160x240 (which would be probably faster with no accel)
23:40.39SpeedEvilTrue.
23:41.24SpeedEvilI can see - with an accelleromter - maps being usable with the screen held close.
23:42.29happycubeyeah... also it might actually need *less* power to deal with screen stuff
23:42.38happycubeif the chip is more efficient at it that is
23:42.40xl0I'm not sure if the cpu is actually capable of playing mpeg4 even at 160x240. The mentioned PXA cpus have a special multimedia coprocessor...
23:43.19balrog-kunxl0: it should be capable of that
23:43.33balrog-kuni doubt iwMMXt (the PXA thing) gives any real speedup
23:43.55happycubei know the ti omaps have some pretty heavy accel stuff, but it's so closed it couldn't possibly be used
23:44.06happycubenokia n800 has a freaking powervr in it
23:44.09happycube... and no driver
23:44.38balrog-kunall iwMMXt does is lets you multiply/divide/add/substract two 32bit numbers instead of one in one cycle
23:45.05balrog-kunbut there's the overhead of copying the operands from normal registers to iwMMXt registers
23:45.19happycube*nod*
23:45.26balrog-kunhappycube: it's not exactly like this, that cpu has a DSP
23:45.31happycubethe first x86 mmx sucked too ;)
23:45.43balrog-kunthe DSP is a second processor that can be programmed to do anything, and theinstruction set is standard
23:45.44happycube*nod*
23:46.00balrog-kunthe OMAP one i mean
23:46.06happycubeyeah... i heard about that
23:46.11happycubeis there a free toolchain tho?
23:46.26xl0But still, the DSP dicumentation is not publically available, I suppose...
23:46.52balrog-kunhappycube: not sure, there should be some since the instruction set is known
23:47.04balrog-kunxl0: i believe it's documented
23:47.50balrog-kuni'm saying that because i had experience with OMAP1510 which is an older chip but has a DSP of the same line, and the documentation was all there
23:48.25xl0With or without NDA?
23:48.25alorilxl0: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
23:49.01xl0;))
23:49.28balrog-kunxl0: without (actually OMAP5910 docs were available without NDA, but 1510 and 5910 are practically identical)
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