IRC log for #openmoko on 20070517

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00:21.26aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Press_Coverage]]
00:23.04CIA-24openmoko: 03andrew * r1987 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/ (31 files in 3 dirs):
00:23.04CIA-24openmoko: First go at the GSM modem emulator - for the moment uses code from 'gnokii' AT interpreter (dialing, SMS, RLP, ringtones, bitmaps but no GPRS).
00:23.04CIA-24openmoko: Fix S3C-UART FIFO mode.
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01:43.38CIA-24openmoko: 03alphaone * r1988 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-footer/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
01:43.38CIA-24openmoko: * configure.ac, src/callbacks.c, src/callbacks.h, src/main.c:
01:43.38CIA-24openmoko: Remove any dbus cruft since we don't use it anymore
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01:56.46bhima!counter
01:58.06CIA-24openmoko: 03alphaone * r1989 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-footer/src/ (misc.c misc.h): * misc.{c,h}: Convert dos to unix line breaks
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02:08.36CIA-24openmoko: 03alphaone * r1990 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-footer/src/ (callbacks.h footer.h main.h misc.h):
02:08.36CIA-24openmoko: * src/callbacks.h, src/footer.h, src/main.h, src/misc.h:
02:08.37CIA-24openmoko: Add proper #ifdefs around header files
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02:21.57CIA-24openmoko: 03alphaone * r1991 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-footer/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
02:21.57CIA-24openmoko: * src/Makefile.am, src/main.h, src/taskmanager.c, src/taskmanager.h:
02:21.57CIA-24openmoko: Add initial taskmanager framework to footer (yet unused)
02:21.58aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]]
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03:55.49billl_counter
03:55.49alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: a week, 3 days 08:06:30 (10.338 +-5.0 days) (1201;207)
03:55.49billl_doh
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03:59.30bmidgleymy mokomake got past uboot... i guess it was fixed
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04:33.26aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Kernel]]
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05:21.26aloril(script) openmoko-community: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Making Neo Brickproof, was comments after reading Wiki
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06:34.26aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Text_Input]] [[Applications]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Flight_Mode]] [[Buying_Interest_List]]
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07:36.37aloril2Elrond: there were that many mails about unbrick protection by Werner
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07:50.03rohaloril2 there were also a lot of really stupid suggestions about it ;)
07:55.45Kalozhmz, dfu-util always fails on the first try, it looses the device after reset
07:56.42Stephmwyo
07:57.02rohKaloz update it. thats a old bug
07:57.08rohshould be gone by now
07:57.10alphaoneKaloz: Try to get newer uboot and dfu-util
07:58.02Kalozroh: well, currently it has the u-boot from april 15.. also, it didn't fail with that dfu-util
07:58.15Kalozit does with the one from yesterday
07:59.20Psiis anyone working on VOIP on the neo, or is it far too soon for that and everyone is working on getting the main apps to work properly :P ?
07:59.38alphaoneKaloz: Does uboot print something about i2c error?
07:59.54Kalozalphaone: yup
08:00.06Kalozalphaone: it's the uboot from april, so it does :)
08:00.17rohPsi the latter. voip is really easy when the rest is working properly
08:00.24Kalozanyways, reflashed :)
08:00.41alphaoneshould be
08:00.52Psiroh, cool
08:01.32Psii guess VOIP isnt very useful until the wifi version anyway
08:02.06hrwreally?
08:02.11buzi  think so
08:02.12hrwI plan to have BT AP here
08:02.19buzi mean how many BT AP have you come across?
08:02.25madwoota0
08:02.28Psiwell yeah, if you can get the range with BT, then go for it
08:02.30buzi would say a grand total of 0
08:02.41Psii just dont know if BT really has enough bandwidth at range for VOIP around the home
08:02.41madwootatheres a reason for that :P
08:02.44mjrclearly VOIP without wifi has some uses, but it's obviously true that wifi would radically increase VOIP's usefulness
08:02.54koenPsi: 2Mbit/s
08:03.11mjrand yeah, BT can do VOIP just fine
08:03.17madwootabt's bandwidth is ok, the range is crap tho
08:03.55koenmjr: I'd be surprised if it couldn't, seeing that all headsets for phones use bluetooth :)
08:04.16Psiyeah, at short range im sure it would work great
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08:05.53Psii suppose if you lived in a small flat it would work fine, but a large house i dont think would work to well with BT
08:15.57koenClass 1 does 100 meters
08:17.27sparqPsi: I'm interested in working on VoIP, thought I cannot boast any actual *work* done ^_^
08:21.40XorAkoen: on a good day with a headwind :-)
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08:26.51aloril2roh: hehe, only triggering for core team and some mailing lists
08:28.31GaKKGaKkcounter
08:28.32alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: a week, 3 days 03:31:42 (10.147 +-5.0 days) (1202;208)
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08:39.03sparqdddd d
08:39.51Stephmwsparq: I couldn't have put it better.
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08:42.39PBeckahoi
08:42.49Vitalycounter
08:42.49alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: a week, 3 days 03:17:25 (10.137 +-5.0 days) (1203;208)
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08:51.46Elrondaloril2 - Ahh, okay. :)
08:58.36sparqStephmw: sorry, terminal wonkage
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09:02.57Stephmwsparq: LOL
09:03.01Stephmwsparq: misread that
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09:05.47Stephmw*coffee
09:08.32ElrondHow fragile is the power button on the P0?
09:14.41koenthe powerbutton is pretty sturdy
09:14.51koenthe aux button OTOH...
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09:28.12simon__counter?
09:28.12aloril"/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: a week, 3 days 02:32:01 (10.106 +-5.0 days) (1204;208)
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09:46.43LuitvDgood morning
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09:54.01CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r1992 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-contacts/ (ChangeLog src/contacts-contact-pane.c src/contacts-omoko.h): (log message trimmed)
09:54.01CIA-24openmoko: Patch by: Neil J Patel <njp@o-hand.com>
09:54.01CIA-24openmoko: * src/contacts-contact-pane.c:
09:54.01CIA-24openmoko: * src/contacts-omoko.h:
09:54.01CIA-24openmoko: - Uses colours from the theme instead of hard-coded values.
09:54.04CIA-24openmoko: - Correct alignments for the GtkLabel.
09:54.06CIA-24openmoko: - When a entry is in focus, its combobox will turn to an 'active' state.
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09:57.34CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r1993 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/ (4 files):
09:57.35CIA-24openmoko: Patch from: Neil J Patel <njp@o-hand.com>
09:57.35CIA-24openmoko: * Updates the contactspane rc file so it will use the new fieldentry and
09:57.35CIA-24openmoko:  fieldcombo-normal images, depending on state.
09:57.35CIA-24openmoko: * Makes the font size of the fieldcombo the same as everything else in the
09:57.38CIA-24openmoko:  pane.
09:57.40CIA-24openmoko: * Makes checkboxes visible when active.
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10:08.26CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r1994 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/icons/openmoko-standard/22x22/stock/ (8 files): * Add/rename contacts stock icons
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10:44.11CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r1995 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/icons/openmoko-standard/36x36/stock/ (43 files): * Rename stock icons to match moko-stock.h
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11:01.38CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r1996 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (ChangeLog libmokoui/moko-stock.c libmokoui/moko-stock.h):
11:01.38CIA-24openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-stock.c:
11:01.38CIA-24openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-stock.h:
11:01.38CIA-24openmoko: Modify/add stock items
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11:12.00CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r1997 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/icons/openmoko-standard/22x22/stock/ (9 files): * Rename some icons to new naming scheme
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11:18.54CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r1998 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-contacts/ (ChangeLog src/contacts-omoko.c src/contacts-omoko.h):
11:18.54CIA-24openmoko: * src/contacts-omoko.c: (create_main_window):
11:18.54CIA-24openmoko: * src/contacts-omoko.h:
11:18.55CIA-24openmoko: Use moko stock icons
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11:44.07CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r1999 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (ChangeLog libmokogsmd/moko-gsmd-connection.h): * libmokogsmd/moko-gsmd-connection.h: Add MokoGsmdConnectionProgress
11:44.37LuitvDone more thomas :P
11:45.09CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r2000 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/dialer-window-outgoing.c: openmoko-dialer: use MokoGsmdConnectionProgress
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11:57.57robsterhehe
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12:13.41kineycounter
12:13.42alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: a week, 2 days 23:46:32 (9.991 +-5.0 days) (1205;208)
12:15.34nnpiggyI'm having trouble powering up my neo. Any suggestions for field diagnostics?
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12:17.26aloril(script) openmoko-community: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
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12:35.26aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Hammerhead_protocol]] [[Hammerhead_protocol]]
12:37.26aloril(script) openmoko-community: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Making Neo Brickproof, was comments after reading Wiki
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12:57.32aloril2nnpiggy: leave it charging for enough long time?
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12:58.12nnpiggyI'm hoping that's all--I had let the battery go completely flat.
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12:58.41nnpiggyI let it charge off of a normal USB port over night and I was able to power it up...
12:58.59nnpiggyI turned it off and haven't been able to turn it on since. It's charging again...
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12:59.23nnpiggyWhen it did power up this morning it reported less than 1/2 of a full charge.
13:00.27StephmwI would hazard a guess that the power management is foobared and that 'turning it off' just turns the backlight off
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13:06.39XorAtake battery out of Neo when it is off
13:06.49XorAany other ways just invites pain
13:07.16DukeOfURLhttp://gizmodo.com/gadgets/cellphones/crazy-video-20-ways-japanese-smartphones-do-it-better-261161.php
13:07.46DukeOfURLI guess they use a camera for facial recognition/authentication?
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13:10.37nnpiggyThanks, Stephmw and XorA. That theory has a certain appeal.
13:11.19XorAnnpiggy: I have 3 neo here, and although power usage goes down with P1 it still drains too much
13:11.31nnpiggyHowever, "Turning on" uniformly elicits a reboot. But I could easily believe that we're bleeding power continuously...
13:11.50SpeedEvilXorA: Do you have an actual draw figure in mA?
13:12.05XorASpeedEvil: no, but I know kernel suspend code is a work in progress
13:12.07Stephmwnnpiggy: noe Neo related, but the last thing to get fixed on all the protos I get at work is power management
13:12.10Stephmwnnpiggy: *not
13:12.22nnpiggyS
13:12.35XorASpeedEvil: in suspend P1 lasts less than 12 hours with current kernel, how much less I dont know
13:12.38nnpiggyStephmw: that's not surprising...
13:12.39StephmwI work with my protos tethered - always on AC
13:13.03nnpiggyI've been observing about 2 hours of ordinary operation (WITHOUT making phone calls).
13:13.16webjameswow, check out these phones: http://www.symbian.com/j20/phones.asp they have all sorts of weird stuff they can do
13:13.32webjameshttp://www.symbian.com/j20/phones.asp
13:13.41nnpiggyI understand that the 1 May load is supposed to be a lot more power-efficient
13:13.50webjamesi think we could implement some features like this into the openmoko
13:16.13balrog-kun1 May isn't P1?
13:16.42Stephmwwebjames: any specifics? that phone list is just, well, a phone list
13:17.08webjamesStephmw: have a look at this one for example: http://www.symbian.com/phones/foma_f702id.html
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13:17.54Stephmwwebjames: oh, I thought you were talking about something power related :)
13:18.23webjamesnope just some weird features
13:20.07Stephmwthe key word to follow through on mobiles is: integrated
13:20.39Stephmweverything, every app, every help file, every single thing must look to the user to provide a seamless user experience
13:20.58Stephmwnone of the gnome or kde funk
13:24.09aloril2what about leaving it connected to USB (in 500mA mode)?
13:25.45DukeOfURLWierd NOT.  We certainly need user authentication on our smart phone.  Fingerprint, facial recognition, iris scan, speaker identification, SOMETHING!
13:27.08balrog-kunpassword?
13:27.49Clintfaceprint
13:27.59DukeOfURLWe need to be able to identify an individual user,
13:28.19balrog-kunusername + password
13:29.16tholinAnyone know how legal an open source mobile would be. Would I be able to import it legaly in Sweden?
13:29.16aloriltholin: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
13:29.27balrog-kuni don't know why you would need all that on a phone but GPE/OPIE already supports that :)
13:29.40DukeOfURLIf I'm going to keep financial information on the phone then password isn't stong enough (shoulder surfing)
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13:30.22balrog-kunfingerprint/facial recognition/speaker identification doesn't help with that
13:30.25DukeOfURLBesides, I don't want to punch in a password every <n> minutes
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13:32.41flyfish30press information
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13:47.34aloril2P1+ discount ideas: 1) normal discount for those who buy P1 (for example $100-150?)
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13:49.19aloril22) of those who buy P1 and actually develop for it provide discount coupons like Nokia did for N770 developers: they got to buy N800 for 100 EUR (IIRC)
13:50.32aloril23) of those who got (P0+)P1 free and did stuff: provide free P1+ too (and maybe add some new people to free program)
13:51.41aloril2A3
13:52.09aloril2uups ;-)
13:53.40LuitvDwhy P1+ discount?
13:54.20LuitvDthought the discount for early adopters applied to P2
13:54.34LuitvDalphaone: did you get a P1 device for free?
13:54.46LuitvDalphaone: and is that 'get' or 'get to use' ?
13:54.47LuitvD<PROTECTED>
13:55.48alphaoneLuitvD: I also got a P0 device, but after the P1 arrived I gave it to wansti to test his ringtones.
13:56.01LuitvD:P
13:56.12LuitvDi want to have one too for testing
13:57.59aloril2about Nokia discount: it was 500 coupouns IIRC
13:59.20LuitvDaloril2: the 2nd and 3rd combined would be nice too
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14:00.57aloril2LuitvD: hardware(P1+)==hardware(P2) so I don't see any difference ;-)
14:01.21LuitvDthose who got free P0 or P1 and really did something for moko (think that's still all P0 and P1 recievers) get a free P1+ to get on with developement, and the ones who bought the P1 and did some good stuff for moko, 50% discount or so
14:01.53LuitvDaloril: yeah, probably... discount was first mentioned before there were plans for P1+ :P
14:02.06LuitvDaloril2: all three seem fair :P
14:03.07aloril2oh, and 0) option too: haven't bought P1 or otherwise qualify for 1-3 options: buy P1+ for full price
14:05.09SpeedEvilI'd like the option to buy upgrade boards too.
14:05.24SpeedEvilWhich are just the motherboard, and no GPS/mobile antenna/case/LCD
14:05.27aloril2s:otherwise:otherwise doesn't:
14:05.59SpeedEvilFor both upgrades, and standalone stuff
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14:08.31Kerothough I guess discounts encourage ppl to buy P1 already and not wait.
14:08.39SpeedEvilyeah
14:08.48aloril2Kero: ditto
14:11.21buzthe neo as embedded board would be neat
14:11.21aloril2without discount I might get P1 and then wait for V2
14:11.22Kerosaw yesterday it's gonna be 64MB flash for P1 and 1GB for P1+ ?
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14:12.39Keronot that it matters much if there's a microSD slot.
14:12.44antenagoracounter
14:12.44alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: a week, 2 days 21:47:29 (9.908 +-5.0 days) (1206;208)
14:12.45buzthat rumor has never been confirmed afaik
14:13.32SpeedEvilI'm almost certain that that was a mistranslation.
14:13.37SpeedEvilOf gigabit.
14:13.43SpeedEvilOr 128M.
14:13.55SpeedEvilGoing from 64-128 would make sense.
14:14.01Kerook. I'd expect upgrades, but not huge upgrades :)
14:14.09aloril22 Neos and 2 differents users nearby (only one of them needs to be developer too) enables interesting developent possibilities, so I hope it happens often (and discount should make this more common, especially 2 and 3 options)
14:14.16SpeedEvilHowever, I don't speak german
14:17.16aloril2one simple example: a: "Where are you?" b: presses button "Send position" a: looks at screen to see it in map
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14:18.08SpeedEvilThere is the 'upload position constantly, encrypted with a key' app too
14:18.17SpeedEvilSo your friends can see where you are.
14:20.23Kerothat's cute when waiting for friend(s) :)
14:22.16pH5I've uploaded some partial analysis of the hammerhead cold start, links at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Hammerhead_protocol.
14:22.51aloril2yeah, sending position during call requires some kind of send data during call over voice protocol ('modem') and other side to intepret it (for low volume data like positions should be reasonably easy)
14:23.36SpeedEvilAnnoyingly - it's not trivial to do it inaudibly
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14:24.03Kerowatermark-style is inaudible.
14:24.16SpeedEvilAnd also doesn't get through GSM codecs well
14:24.19XorAKero: watermarking GSM isnt trivial
14:24.35SpeedEvilThe basic problem with GSM is that it assumes the input is speech-like
14:24.47SpeedEvilAnd all the coding goes to coding speech.
14:24.58SpeedEvilIt is designed to throw away inaudible stuff
14:25.08XorASpeedEvil: your best bet would be to just transmit it hidden in a BEEP, then sender can say, sending you my position gimme a sec BEEP, done
14:25.11Keromakes the problem much harder indeeed.
14:25.37SpeedEvilThe nice fastish way to transmit data isn't AIUI available free.
14:25.52SpeedEvilIt's basically you take a human throat model, and feed it data
14:25.58SpeedEviland then decode at the other end
14:26.07SpeedEvilyou can get some 1.3kbits/sec from this
14:26.11XorADTMF and make it a tune
14:26.54mjryeah, if you don't mind some beeps, DTMF or similar would be workable...
14:26.56SpeedEvilImagine for example the datarate you get if every sylable can be a different pitch, loudness, and you're not constrained by a real human throat.
14:27.42pH5so not VoIP but IPoV?
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14:28.45Kerobut why not sending data over gprs? that's not audio, no?
14:28.51mjrhmh
14:29.06mjrwonder if you can tell the chip to suspend voice for a while and let gprs through instead...
14:29.22mjr'cause, you know, it doesn't do both at the same time, and usually the gprs connection is bumped for voice
14:29.32pH5and have the neo play a nice standby tune while the voice call is on hold
14:29.46Keroah-ah...
14:29.48SpeedEvilYou can't do that AIUI.
14:30.07mjrSpeedEvil, kinda suspected that... Plus, really, the DTMF approach would probably be faster ;]
14:30.12SpeedEvilIt's not.
14:30.29SpeedEvilDTMF gets you 20 bits/sec or so
14:30.38SpeedEvilthe 'fake voice' approach gets you 1300
14:30.55aloril2SpeedEvil: I think it is simple: receiving side delays incoming voice by tiny amount, enoung so that it can notice beep at certain frequency: do 2 things at that point:
14:31.16Kerowikipedia mentions gprs class A devices which should be able to use gsm and gprs simultaneously, and class B and C which can't
14:31.26SpeedEvilclass A devices have two radios
14:31.41Kerothat's cheating :)
14:32.32aloril21) start decoding data
14:32.33aloril22) at receiving size instead of delivering beeps or whatver encoding is used use text->speech to describe it (position being transmited or N bytes transmitted or something)
14:32.58mjrSpeedEvil, hmm, come to think of it, I assumed that gprs would have to be set up as well, if it was in suspend it'd probably be faster to switch, yeah
14:33.24SpeedEvilAIUI, in principle GPRS can come back almost immediately after a call
14:33.36mjrit can
14:35.17SpeedEvilI wonder if you can send SMS on a call
14:35.25XorASpeedEvil: yes
14:35.26aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Hammerhead_protocol]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[GPS_Navigation]]
14:35.34XorASpeedEvil: and I beleive you can GPRS during a call as well
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14:38.07aloril2without delay you would hear short beep and then there is no reason to echo communication to ear unless receiver really wants it instead of something nice ;-)
14:38.40SpeedEvilYou can just use a speech-beep
14:38.57mjrmmh, yeah, sms while calling would be a natural way to transmit side data if one doesn't mind the possible extra cost
14:39.02SpeedEvil'data' in a wierd pronounciation, for example.
14:39.14SpeedEvilDelays are annoying
14:39.29tholinHow good will the gps reception be. Will it work of the phone is in a pocket? Will if work if the phone is indoors?
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14:40.15mjrand yeah, aloril's note about the receiving Neo just saying that position is being transmitted would be good
14:42.32pH5tholin: pocket is no problem, indoors depends on the building I'd guess.
14:42.45mjrAccording to Sean the chip got a fix indoors when he was demoed it, but of course depends on particular circumstances
14:43.04mjrinfo is a bit scant until the thing is properly supported...
14:43.30pH5mjr: I sometimes get fixes indoors when I cold-booted it outside, so probably AGPS could help here.
14:43.43mjrin that case maybe yes
14:43.57SpeedEvilFrom first principles.
14:44.05tholinIf I decide to get one of these phones I would like to create a position logger to record my whereabouts and draw some nice maps with google maps api.
14:44.11mjrpH5, with the Neo and the first binary blob?
14:44.25SpeedEvilI think it will get positions almost anywhere there is the barest hint of the signal, if it's had a fix within 5 min or so.
14:44.26tholinBut that would be useless if I had to hold it up to get a signal.
14:44.51SpeedEvilAnd maybe slightly less sensitive if it's got a complete almanac
14:45.07SpeedEvilAnd is started up after being off for a long time
14:45.14SpeedEviltholin: http://www.openstreetmap.com
14:46.03pH5mjr: yes, so this is by no means a good indicator for the gps performance of the final phone.
14:46.27aloril2SpeedEvil: yeah nice beep is better than delay
14:47.19mjrpH5, you getting accurate positions? I remember when somebody was first getting fixes here, and he said (rather vaguely) something about it being close but not quite
14:47.38mjr(and yeah, not final etc)
14:50.01mjrhm, openstreetmap.com has some Helsinki mapping present; not a lot, but a starting point
14:50.45XorAmjr: just remove your roof :-)
14:52.11mjrthe javascript map viewer is buggy though, but a zoom change will whack it into sanity
14:52.43SpeedEvilMy local town (40K) was entirely missing.
14:52.53SpeedEvilDundee - 140K - had one road.
14:53.23pH5mjr: accuracy varies. it's a few m off maybe.
14:54.35SpeedEvilI'm about 5Km NE of Glenrothes
14:54.38mjrpH5, well that's good enough for me
14:54.41CoreDump|afkFWIW, I have _not_ been able to get a correct lock w/ my Neo. All tests were a few hundred meters off, even when I was on the top of a building...
14:55.14SpeedEvilOdd.
14:55.15XorASpeedEvil: next to Murrayfield Stadium when Im at work
14:55.15SpeedEvilYou are sure? What have you been comparing to?
14:55.23CoreDump|afkgoogle maps
14:55.39SpeedEvilI wonder if it might be geoid problems.
14:55.44SpeedEvilBut that should be under that.
14:55.46mjrmaybe there still is some conversion issue?
14:56.05CoreDump|afkI hope it is a driver problem with the binary gllin cr*p =)
14:56.08SpeedEvilGoogle maps can be wrong
14:56.25CoreDump|afkSpeedEvil: on two different locations? I don't think so
14:56.32SpeedEvilAnd are you sure you diddn't get degree min sec - decimal degree problems?
14:56.40CoreDump|afkpretty sure
14:56.52Stephmwpwd
14:56.55Stephmwhmmm
14:58.22SpeedEvilIf you're in an openstreetmapped area, you can use 'gpsbabel' to convert the NMEA logs to GPX, and then load the logs into the JOSM editor, along with the map
14:59.16mjrit did
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14:59.36XorAhmm, I could install it in wifes car and generate Edin maps :-)
14:59.37SpeedEvilNobodies got it working though
14:59.38mjrthe daemon reportedly doesn't work with it though due to different power-up-sequence
14:59.44pH5XorA: LaF0rge said they had it working even on v2,v3, but I can't get GPS on my Bv3 to work.
15:00.30mjrhmm, when I get my Neo, have to take up a bicycling hobby. Through all the nearby roads ;)
15:02.13SpeedEvilBicycle, with bluetooth headset to note stuff apparently works really well
15:02.55SpeedEvil'left foo street' 'left amenity post office'
15:02.57SpeedEvil...
15:03.58LuitvD'left through wall' 'right towards vault'
15:04.00LuitvD...
15:04.06mjr:D
15:04.20SpeedEvil:)
15:04.38SpeedEvilNo officer, I'm not kerb crawling, I'm mapping.
15:04.43*** join/#openmoko baird (n=cbaird@brushtail.apana.org.au)
15:04.44LuitvDhehehehe
15:04.45aloril2a bit further about: IPoV (or just data over voice): send tone1 at certain frequency (I want t send data) and tone2 (proposed encoding: DTFM, vocoder, etc..) and then wait for reply
15:05.21*** part/#openmoko baird (n=cbaird@brushtail.apana.org.au)
15:05.23LuitvDIPoV? :P
15:05.28LuitvDdamn, who invented that?
15:06.04aloril2if no reply, then other side is not capable (not Neo nor anything else supporting it)
15:06.24mjraloril2, sounds sane
15:09.52SpeedEvilIMO, tone1 will false trigger _way_ too often
15:09.52SpeedEvilyou want a sample.
15:09.52aloril2pH5 used IPoV term first
15:09.52SpeedEvil'NeoData' in a silly voice
15:09.55guaquaneodata :)
15:09.55LuitvDshould be openpatented
15:09.56guaquamaybe frequency human ear can't hear
15:09.56guaquai'm guessing there are already ways to transfer data over gsm
15:09.57DukeOfURLGSM should be able to pass DTMF.  There are 16 combinations of tones.  Maybe with a 'shift' key we could apss data.
15:09.58DukeOfURLs/apss/pass/
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15:10.05mjrguaqua, SpeedEvil has referred to a vocoder that'd do ~1.3k but proprietary tech
15:11.42guaquapeople used to do 9600 kbps over any phone line
15:11.51mjrDukeOfURL, and yeah, DTMF should work for very small data amounts
15:12.08guaquait _should_ be possible
15:12.08SpeedEvilmjr: More unpublished than proprietory
15:12.12mjrSpeedEvil, righto
15:12.12DukeOfURLWith mobile-2-mobile calling plan, IPoV would save a ton of money.
15:12.13SpeedEvilSomeone referred to it on this channel earlier
15:12.14SpeedEvilA couple of months ago
15:12.15DukeOfURLGSM gateway to PBX, etc.
15:12.15SpeedEvilI think it was a pdf
15:12.28*** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch)
15:12.28SpeedEvilDukeOfURL: It's very marginal for voice though.
15:12.28SpeedEvilVOIP over IPoV over GSM is just a little silly.
15:12.29mjrguaqua, the issue is that we can't feed digital data straight to the GSM chip, and the audio data we can feed it will be put through (one of) the GSM codec(s)
15:12.29SpeedEvilWe only have an analog connection in.
15:12.29mjrguaqua, and the codec will, in worst case, itself have a bitrate of 9k6
15:12.30DukeOfURLI'm not talking about VoIP--just the ability to send data over a voice channel.
15:12.30SpeedEvilYeah
15:12.36mjrguaqua, so whatever data you want through will have to survive the GSM codec at 9k6bps
15:12.42LuitvDconnect one neo to the internet, and use it with the other?
15:12.42DukeOfURLMeans we could use Cingular pay-as-you-go cards that don't provide data.
15:12.58mjrcompletely different from just doing it over "any phone line"
15:13.16guaquamjr: okay
15:13.48guaquamjr: are you familiar with the sanla technology?
15:15.01mjrnot really, I'm a civil service man :]
15:16.44guaquawell, it basically does 1200 bps over any line
15:16.44guaquaand this is any
15:16.45guaquai have to dig up the algorithms
15:17.07mjragain, the GSM voice call is not merely "line", the signal is actively munged in a codec that expects to be compressing human speech and wants to throw everything else away
15:17.08aloril2another idea: route all your calls trough PC and then PC could decode IPoV -> internet access during call (slow but still..)
15:17.34webjamesi like the SMS idea, if compatible the neo would not load up the sms in message viewer, but onto a map as positioning data
15:17.54mjraloril2, yay, but raises the ol' VOIP issues that you really want to use GSM data calls then, and even then adds some latency
15:18.00guaquamjr: still, it's a lot better quality than hf frequency transmission from 600 kilometers away at 35W power :)
15:18.12SpeedEvilSMSs can be _very_ non-realtime though.
15:18.40mjrSpeedEvil, can. Usually not at least here.
15:18.47webjamesSpeedEvil: i see..
15:18.52XorAwebjames: SMS can be marked as DATA only
15:18.59XorAwebjames: and they wont show up
15:19.11mjrbut I still agree that SMS may be a good side-channel for this kind of thing
15:19.11webjamesXorA, now we just have the latency problem
15:19.14SpeedEvilSometimes the things take days. Usually for me minutes
15:20.28webjamesi suppose different places countries people will have different experiences, i would say on the whole in the UK it is fairly instant, but i have had delays of an hour or more
15:20.32XorAuse GPRS, implement IP over DNS (suppliers only seem to charge for http transfer)
15:20.37webjameswhich i now see is useless for transmitting real time location data
15:21.35SpeedEvilIf you're doing GPRS, then you can throw your location on a server, and the other party can pick it up after the call
15:21.41DukeOfURLIP over DNS?  Domain name service?
15:21.55Clintyes, it's slow as hell
15:21.57webjamesDukeOfURL: must have meant something else?
15:22.16SpeedEvilmuch of this stuff works better if there is one nominated server for all neos
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15:23.18DukeOfURLXorA: Do you mean data on port 53?
15:24.00XorADukeOfURL: DNS compliant requests which happen to carry IP traffic, there is a RFC for it
15:24.36XorADukeOfURL: ie, DEADBEEF.spanner.org where DEADBEEF is the packet
15:24.58Clintit's a wonder more people aren't blocking that sort of thing
15:25.29aloril2mjr: well I was thinking something similar to SkypeOut (so from Neo viewpoint it would be just normal voice call until IPoV), but latency yeah I guess so
15:25.37webjamesbit of a change of subject, it would be cool if if one is in a wireless signal area one could transmit ones position to a server so ones parents/employer/teacher could see where one is
15:26.13mjrwebjames, old hat, we all want to do that
15:26.38MaulkinWell, the issue is that it's very hard for them to actually block it due to the way they use acls to privide the pay-for wireless points
15:26.44webjamesmjr, would be cool, then at the end of the day you could map your movements throughout that day
15:26.48Maulkin(re: IP over DNS)
15:27.12Maulkinwebjames: nice thought, and I've done it :)
15:27.23webjamesMaulkin: nice, nice
15:27.24mjrwebjames, you can collect the data locally too for the latter purpose. And with gprs, you're pretty much always in signal area.
15:27.25Maulkinadmittedly, with a A780 and GPRS
15:27.54MaulkinI sued it for OpenStreetMap mapping, but as a handy roll-off, you had a "Where is Maulkin" thing
15:27.57Maulkin*used
15:27.59webjamesmjr yeah, i think thats such a good feature, also would help to buld up openstreet map quickly to
15:28.10DukeOfURLI have built a database of streets for western U.S.  I can do geocoding and reverse geocoding.  Using WebServer, I am drawing location points.
15:28.12Maulkingreat minds etc
15:28.30DukeOfURLD Is there street information for the UK?
15:28.39MaulkinDukeOfURL: What do you mean?
15:28.43MaulkinDukeOfURL: street names?
15:29.01DukeOfURLline segments with lat/lon points that describe each street.
15:29.17DukeOfURLwith street name, etc.
15:29.45MaulkinDukeOfURL: Well, it's an interesting one. Most of the mapping data in the UK is Crown Copyright by Ordanace Survey, and they charge a hefty licence fee for it. There is openstreetmap.org who have been doing their own mapping, and that's free (speech and beer)
15:30.00MaulkinAnd don't even ask about post codes :)
15:30.25webjamesDukeOfURL: openstreetmap is great, except for postcodes + large unmapped areas
15:30.47guaquacan someone give some info on this ip over dns?
15:31.13MaulkinFor postcodes, theres... erm...
15:31.18webjamesguaqua: http://thomer.com/howtos/nstx.html
15:31.20Maulkinfreethepostcode.org I think
15:31.26DukeOfURLforget postcodes
15:31.50DukeOfURLwho here is sending letters?
15:31.57XorAguaqua: google can
15:32.40DukeOfURLWere taxpayer funds used to develop the Survey?
15:32.48DukeOfURLin the UK?
15:32.56MaulkinDukeOfURL: sort of, yes.
15:33.11webjamesDukeOfURL: a lot of gps software uses postcodes, often to find someone they tell you their postcode
15:33.43DukeOfURLWell then the information belongs to the taxpayer.
15:33.43MaulkinNope
15:33.43MaulkinIt belongs to the crown
15:33.43MaulkinWhich is different :)
15:34.23SpeedEvilIt now doesn't.
15:34.36SpeedEvilIt belongs to the spun-out ordinance survey organisation.
15:34.43Maulkinyup :)
15:34.45webjameswell if openstreetmap and freethepostcode can be combined that'd be great
15:34.46SpeedEvilWho is now wholly supported by selling maps
15:35.02MaulkinWikipedia explains it best: "Although OS is a government agency it is required to act as a "trading fund" or commercial entity. This means that it is totally self funding from the commercial sale of its data whilst at the same time being the public supplier of geographical maps"
15:35.15MaulkinSo it's sort of odd
15:35.31DukeOfURLit's fucked
15:35.36MaulkinThe UK doens't have the same "produced by teh government == public domain" thing that the US has
15:37.14mjrand the US doesn't _really_ have it either...
15:37.15DukeOfURLwell. I have 25M line segments in a database from a government source.
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15:37.16DukeOfURLfree
15:37.16SpeedEvilThe tiger one?
15:37.16DukeOfURLTiger
15:37.19DukeOfURLCensus bureau
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15:39.24webjamesgprs can still be very expensive it would be possible to store the neo instead of downloading them, or getting maps whilst in a wifi zone
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15:40.25SpeedEvilFor openstreetmap, the compressed planetary map will fit on a microSD card.
15:40.34SpeedEvilIt would be nice if it diddn't.
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15:42.25DukeOfURLWould it be possible to have transparent WiFi?  Where the user isn't even aware the phone is making a WiFi connection to whatever AP is in range?
15:42.36SpeedEvilOpen APs, sure.
15:42.40SpeedEvilLegality may vary.
15:43.26LuitvDlol, would be nice if the map that didn't fit on microSD did actually fit...
15:43.30webjamesSpeedEvil: you are implying that it would be nice if it had more data
15:43.55LuitvDI guess he is
15:44.24webjamesSpeedEvil: also the more clever features we can say the phone has, like 'updating map information when in wifi range of the country you are in'
15:44.28LuitvDwould be cool to have the global street map on one microSD card
15:44.47SpeedEvilWell. The nearest city to me had one road.
15:45.00webjamesvectors take up little space
15:45.06SpeedEvilI added a couple more, but it's still a long way from a useful streetmap in many places.
15:45.23SpeedEvilBut for a streetmap, you've got (ballpark) a vector a person.
15:45.27webjamesSpeedEvil: i named the road i live on, but i still cannot see the name
15:45.45SpeedEvilthe map takes about a week to update
15:45.51webjamesahh right
15:45.59webjamesi'll look now
15:46.17SpeedEvilthe '+' on the map viewer shows alternate renderings, some of which may update faster
15:47.14aloril2bad implementation of IPoV could be vulnerable for worms spreading trough GSM network
15:47.57webjamesSpeedEvil: my road is now named!
15:48.32SpeedEvil:)
15:49.21mjraloril2, good luck having the user wait for an interruption in a voice call to transfer a viable worm ;)
15:51.15pH5mjr: regarding accuracy, http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/display/1179416906-14022-85.178.222.100.html, I did not swim.
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15:54.44DukeOfURLAnyone seen this?  http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/117457150/article.pl
15:55.37aloril2mjr: yeah: "hi foo" beep beep quiet/synth voice saying data being transmitted "what!" click
15:56.26aloril2example of worm reading address books and trying to automatically spreading
15:56.54aloril2(still of course good idea to consider security of course)
15:59.45mjryes, that would be nice; Somebody (TM) needs to do a friendly OSM tracking app
16:00.05XorA|gonemjr: nicely volunteeered
16:00.41mjrwas there something already for Maemo, I wonder. Does the mapper do this sort of thing too?
16:00.49mjrXorA|gone, or non- :]
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16:02.13SpeedEvilEvne just raw (anonymised) position data thrown to a server and released to OSM after a month would be a help.
16:02.37webjamesi think openstreetmap is such a good idea, and i'm sure with the support of the neo community it could be truly great, we'll just have to make sure it's well documented and it's easy to get the data from the neo to the map
16:03.11mjrSpeedEvil, yeah I suppose it would. It'd probably be easy to get people to sign up for that.
16:03.23mjrsince they'd have to do almost nothing actively
16:04.41mjrcooking such data from another user might not be too fun but :]
16:04.46*** join/#openmoko Moo^^ (n=moo@owla-gw.cust.eunet.fi)
16:05.05SpeedEvilFrom one user, no.
16:05.17SpeedEvilFrom 10 users who all went down the same road, it gets easier
16:06.17SpeedEvilAll 10 users going down a path at >50MPH, from another designated road, without stopping, and it's probably safe to auto-tag it preliminarily as a proper road of some sort.
16:06.39mjr*nod*
16:06.42aloril2it could even be a 'game': be first to map streets: as time goes, you need to go to more and more exotic places
16:06.59so_solid_moomake it so the user benefits from entering the information
16:07.02mjraloril2, oo. Game. Scores. Experience points!
16:07.13aloril2keep highscore!
16:07.14so_solid_mooe.g., they identify the street, they then can mark out hangouts and arrange nights out there and stuff
16:07.36mjr"You have reached level 4 and learn the spell 'Mark public office'"
16:09.54webjamesi like the ideas!
16:11.29*** join/#openmoko rep (n=rep@vs187078.vserver.de)
16:13.37aloril2lets assume % of people updating osm * number of Neos sold >= 10000 within 1E9 people -> every 100,000 person mapping
16:13.57woglinde*g*
16:14.48aloril2-> 50 players in Finland competing about highscores hmm..
16:16.18aloril2of course if its 10x higher including all other mobiles having gps + support for this game -> probably quite fast coverage
16:16.49SpeedEvilNeeds prizes
16:17.21pH5yeah, like vacations in unmapped areas
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16:19.41webjamespH5 love it
16:20.04webjamesyou've won a trip to map the Bahamas
16:20.36webjames..waypoint: beach bar, NOTE: sells nice rum and coke
16:21.21happycubelol
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16:23.51aloril2good position in highscore list alone is very motivating 'prize' for many people
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16:25.42aloril2there should also be some score for being second/third/etc.. person mapping street (1/nth for example: 1.0 for 1st, 0.5 for 2nd, etc..)=
16:28.22webjamesgiven this we want quality, not just quantity
16:31.49aloril2yeah, this get score from bein second, etc.. adds redundancy: game could ask user to confirm earlier street name (or fix it), if you are 10th or so it would just automatically add to score (and add yet another redundant datapoint)
16:34.26aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Main_Page/es]] [[FIC/es]]
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16:41.50aloril2risk: cheaters uploading data from commercial database instead of being personally present (but if data is time stamped this can be detected)
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17:10.50minimecounter
17:10.51alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: a week, 2 days 18:49:23 (9.784 +-5.0 days) (1207;208)
17:12.58aloril2you could even play this game against yourself: have you yet visited all streets in your home city?
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17:13.14LuitvDXD
17:13.56SpeedEvilThat can be surprisingly hard.
17:14.12SpeedEvilYou've got to tag all junctions to make that possible.
17:14.34LuitvDwould be fun to have a program that tells you you're driving differently when going to work and avioding thick traffic :P
17:14.52LuitvDor a program that recognizes where you're going
17:18.31SpeedEvilCollaborative traffic monitoring would be nice
17:19.07aloril2marking public buildings, etc.. should give score, not only from mapping+tagging streets
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17:40.05Stephmwtick-tock?
17:40.29balrog-kunit doesn't tick ;) it's got lots of duct tape on it though
17:42.23balrog-kunumm it starts looking like there's only duct-tape
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17:49.33LuitvDlol
17:51.25balrog-kunyay, it's the black one
17:51.35LuitvDXD
17:51.48LuitvDblack P1 device?
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17:52.31balrog-kunyep
17:52.56LuitvDwhy is everyone getting P1 devices... :(
17:53.08balrog-kunS/N: 000351
17:53.20LuitvDdid you recieve a P0 too?
17:53.30balrog-kunnope
17:54.01Kalozbalrog-kun: 321 and 322 here :)
17:54.15balrog-kundammit ;)
17:54.20Marex-notebook;-)
17:54.30Marex-notebook000000 here ;-)
17:54.32Kalozwondering if Sean or Harald got 001
17:54.33*** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de)
17:54.33Kaloz:P
17:54.40PBeckre
17:54.48Kalozor maybe Mr. mickey ;P
17:55.28balrog-kunhas anyone taken off the screen protector already? :p
17:55.54*** join/#openmoko Pander (n=chatzill@ip235-130-212-87.adsl2.versatel.nl)
17:55.57Marex-notebookbalrog-kun, try taking off the digitizer ... that might be much more fun ;)
17:56.58balrog-kunfor sure
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17:57.51Marex-notebookbalrog-kun, ok, try not grooving a hole into the LCD with a screwdriver
17:58.02Marex-notebook... I did that accidentally on TT ;)
17:58.20Panderhi all
17:58.31balrog-kundid it make it look prettier?
17:58.43balrog-kunhmm the stickers are upside down
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18:29.17rohheh.. i'll really need to ask where the numbers are started at.. i thought we only sent about 50 bv4 out
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18:30.07happycubethere was a second batch of ~150 gta01bv4's i thought
18:30.16happycubemaybe 200 now if the other 50 got fixed?
18:30.55roheventually if you add the bv2, 3 and 4 its 350-300
18:31.02happycube*nod*
18:31.13roheh 250-300
18:31.18happycubehow many are going to be in the may ~24 run?
18:31.58happycubei wonder how gta02 is coming along, too ;)
18:31.59rohdunno. thats happening in mainland china, i'm in .tw right now
18:32.02happycubeok
18:32.25tobmasterhi, are there any chances to get an openmoko phone preordered somewhere?
18:32.26aloriltobmaster: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
18:32.51tobmasterNeo1973 even
18:33.54rohhappycube when we publicly announce the p1 to be sold, the webshop will be up, the exact price will be announced and the preview about the gta02 will be there, so everyone can decide to either support us by buying a 'release-gta01' or to wait for gta02
18:34.06happycubesounds good :0
18:34.07happycube:)
18:34.26aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[Wishlist:ANARM]]
18:35.03rohthats also why we currently don't do preorders. you should exactly know what you'd get before placing an order. at least that is what we think thats fair and good.
18:41.13tobmasterroh: will the gta01 be upgradeable to gta02?
18:41.28tobmasteror do you expect/know about hardware changes?
18:44.44CIA-24openmoko: 03mickey * r2001 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokogsmd/ (moko-gsmd-connection.c moko-gsmd-connection.h): libmokogsmd: register signal "pin-requested"
18:45.11CIA-24openmoko: 03mickey * r2002 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/ (4 files in 2 dirs): openmoko-dialer: prepare to show PIN dialog on demand
18:47.00rohtobmaster that information will be released when we start selling the gta01
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18:48.13rohi really cannot comment much further about this
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18:48.52tobmasterroh i understand thanks :)
18:49.23rohtobmaster take a look at the wiki, a lot if infos are already there
18:49.30rohs/if/of/
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19:08.34aloril2tobmaster: gta02==P1+, gta01==P1 at [[Neo1973]] page at wiki (linked from above FAQ page)
19:12.53aloril2different hardware, there should be discount but no idea what kind or how much
19:13.21aloril2software you can always upgrade of course
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19:49.25tobmasterthanks guys
19:53.02Bishthanks for what!?
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19:54.36LuitvDthank goodness, microsoft can still do something right :P
19:55.31LuitvDthough it's not really usefull in correctly designed finger-touch-GUIs, Microsoft's Shift is quite a nice feature
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19:59.54SpeedEvillast recentchanges
20:00.09SpeedEviloops
20:04.24DukeOfURLLuitvD: wonder if there will be licensing issues with this...
20:05.15LuitvDDukeOfURL: I bet it's Windows Mobile exclusive...
20:05.24*** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@archangel.kolej.mff.cuni.cz)
20:05.44DukeOfURLI mean could we write our own without license issues.
20:06.09LuitvDhmm, why would you?
20:06.49DukeOfURLfor using pen-based apps with finger touch
20:07.01LuitvDah well...
20:07.31LuitvDI guess they already patented the technology
20:08.10SuNdoesn't either.
20:09.06Bishi would like to buy my first free mobilephone :/
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20:16.15raynetwe can always disable the touch interface and make it voice controlled
20:16.36*** part/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@adsl-69-232-229-148.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
20:17.29noiddraynet: you involved with UK raynet org?
20:18.32raynetnoidd: no.. i am named after a star in StarControl I
20:18.38raynetStarCOntrol II that is
20:18.58LuitvDI wonder if laptop-touchpad-style controlled cursor on a mobile device would work...
20:19.11LuitvDjust using the touch screen in a touchpad-like way...
20:19.25guaquathe joystick on my nokia works
20:19.34guaquai wouldn't mind that kind of an interface in a mobile
20:19.55LuitvDwouldn't mind, or wouldn't use?
20:20.47LuitvDmaybe for precise clicking hitting a button and a cursor appears, and the touchscreen becomes a touchpad... think it'll work...
20:20.47guaquai like it, that's what i meant
20:21.17LuitvDwonder wether it's possible to hack it into openmoko...
20:21.27LuitvDtouchscreen < > touchpad switcher
20:22.12LuitvDespecially for Neo1973's high DPI screen...
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20:39.55Bishlol the text input ideas a pretty cool xD
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20:41.20xFallenAngela bit off topic, but does anyone know technical details of the HDLC protocol?
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20:41.56DukeOfURLflag (0111111) data CRC flag
20:42.06DukeOfURLs/0111111/01111110/
20:42.40DukeOfURLUSART chips will do this low-level stuff for you
20:43.12DukeOfURLconstant flags between frames
20:44.30DukeOfURLHDLC is a knock off of IBM's SDLC protocol--the lowest layer of SNA
20:45.25xFallenAngelI'm not quite clear in which order I and RR frames are to be sent
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20:45.55xFallenAngeli.e If I have a window size 3, the sender sends 3 I frames. What does the reciever send back?
20:46.00xFallenAngeland when?
20:46.08DukeOfURLI is an information (data) frame, RR is "receiver ready" response
20:46.38DukeOfURLRR contains the acknowledged packet number
20:46.56DukeOfURLwindow size is typically 7
20:47.21xFallenAngelso the reciever sends a RR frame for each I frame it recieves?
20:48.15DukeOfURLno, when it is ready to send, it sends the highest acknowledged frame number
20:48.34DukeOfURLboth ends can be sending I frames simultaneously
20:49.16DukeOfURL(synchronous circuits are typically full duplex)
20:50.09DukeOfURLHDLC is a standard--you should be able to get the specs.  "Red Book" comes to mind.
20:51.44DukeOfURLif window=3 then A can send 3 frames to B before B sends an RR
20:52.28xFallenAngelso B definitly sends an RR after three frames. What happens if the third frame is lost in transfer?
20:52.38DukeOfURLtimeout, resend
20:52.59DukeOfURLor B acks the second frame and then A retransmits #3
20:53.29DukeOfURLthis goes back 30 years for me--you really need the spec.
20:54.11xFallenAngelI'll see what I can find out of them. Thanks so far, you helped me a lot :)
21:05.01xFallenAngelargh it costs 216 CHF
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21:21.01Bishausser schweiz xFallenAngel ?
21:21.19xFallenAngelnee, mein nachname ist kewisch :)
21:21.24xFallenAngelaber deutschland
21:21.34Bishhier auch ;)
21:21.54xFallenAngelauch was?
21:22.14Bishjop jop aber ich glaub uns ist es nit gestattet hier was anderes als englisch zu reden :P also qry
21:22.46Bishi just did before CoreDump|afk :P
21:23.08guaquaso he can't really think in irc ;)
21:23.17BishxD
21:24.22Bishis this like hexinput -_- ?
21:24.52CoreDump|homeno, just my usual excuse for chatting while "afk"
21:24.54CoreDump|home;)
21:27.07Sufflopecounter
21:27.07alorilhttp://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: a week, 2 days 14:33:07 (9.606 +-5.0 days) (1208;208)
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21:42.19Bishlolz .. dasher is fun
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22:34.26aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Text_Input]] [[Wish_List]]
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22:43.25Stephmware there any raw performance numbers for the graphics hardware?
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22:50.22Bishhttp://wiki.openmoko.org hardware Stephmw ?
22:59.49StephmwBish: I'm looking there as well :)
23:00.50Stephmwlooking at the wishlist, people are wanting accelerater gfx, so I'm guessing it's probably not terribly fast
23:01.43balrog-kunit's only a dumb framebuffer, it's as fast as RAM
23:02.29Stephmwcheers
23:03.13LuitvD:)
23:07.13Bishrrrrrrrrright.. but it will be faster Stephmw... i hope
23:07.42Stephmw*accelerated even
23:08.05StephmwBish: aye, it's no big problem
23:08.08ElrondAny hints on how to mark new bad blocks on flash?
23:08.29balrog-kunyou can add an accelerator, yes, it's a bit difficult if it's not inside the CPU, so they would probably rather change the CPU
23:08.39balrog-kuncurrently the only graphics hardware is really the physical LCD and the dma channel that connects it to RAM, but the LCD and the dma channel don't affect system speed or system running and are faster than a human eye
23:09.17Bish:/ i really would like to buy the final version of oopenmoko :P
23:09.19Stephmwbalrog-kun: I was wondering about raw data throughput for say, full screen wipes, etc
23:09.21Bishim in love with that project
23:10.23balrog-kunStephmw: a full screen wipe takes same time as writing 480*640*2 bytes into RAM
23:11.02SpeedEvilThe DMA channel does affect performance.
23:12.27SpeedEvilIt is pulling 600K*60 - or 40M/second from main RAM
23:12.27SpeedEvilthis reduces RAM bandwidth
23:12.27SpeedEvilNot to mention hurting power-wise.
23:12.28balrog-kunafaik part of the bandwidth is reserved for the LCD DMA channel and for the 4 remaining DMA channels
23:12.33SpeedEvilFor many apps. Simply going to 240*320 mode will give quite enough performance.
23:13.43balrog-kunand certainly a pain to drive
23:15.11ElrondIt might help. But I doubt it.
23:16.19sparqIt's possible that using a CPU with a graphics-oriented extended instruction set would be nearly as good as a low end graphics accelerator
23:16.42sparqDoes ARM have anything like MMX/SSE?
23:16.58StephmwSpeedEvil: doing a full screen blit is a worst-case scenario for what I have in mind
23:17.09balrog-kunit might help but not in this kind of scenario i think
23:17.13StephmwSpeedEvil: dirtyrects and other optimisations would come into it
23:17.15balrog-kunsparq: generic ARM nope
23:17.19SpeedEvilYeah
23:17.25sparqthat's what I figured
23:17.29balrog-kunsparq: there's iwMMXt but S3C doesn't have it
23:18.21SpeedEvilA really simple 2D accellerator would be handy generally.
23:18.38balrog-kunIMHO the only scenario where an accelerator would make much difference is with these accelerators that hold the whole 3d vertex arrays in their own memory and can make opeations on the whole array and render it automatically
23:18.41sparqbalrog-kun: Hmm... if they bump the CPU speed for the consumer version, does anyone know what CPU they would use? Just the same one, but with a higher clock frequency?
23:18.52balrog-kunall 2D operations on a 640x480 probably don't take so long
23:19.05SpeedEvilExcept for smooth scroll
23:19.31sparqand possibly anti-aliasing
23:19.33SpeedEvilThat sucks huge amounts of CPU if you do it that wya
23:19.43SpeedEvilThere is no need for anti-aliasing
23:19.48SpeedEvilThat's done in hardware.
23:19.53LuitvD:)
23:19.53balrog-kunsparq: afaik GTA02 is an s3c2440 at 400 MHz, but OMAPs are considered for after the first public release
23:19.53sparqOh?
23:20.09SpeedEvilUnless you have the screen at 10cm with a magnifying glass of course
23:20.09LuitvDSpeedEvil: that's done in your eye :P
23:20.24LuitvDnot really 'hard'ware
23:20.30SpeedEvilWetware
23:20.34LuitvDXD
23:20.49balrog-kunSpeedEvil: a smooth scroll is a serie of memcpy()s and i don't think it takes really long at 640x480x2 bytes
23:21.07sparqAnti-aliasing actually does make a difference for readability even when you can't actually see the pixels.
23:21.12SpeedEvilNo, but it sucks a whole lot of CPU.
23:21.20StephmwSpeedEvil: doesn't everyone use the screen at 10cm with a magnifying glass?
23:22.02SpeedEvilsparq: Given that most 'phone' fonts are going to be 30*20 or so... I don't think antialiasing is a real problem.
23:22.17Stephmwthat's something else. phone fonts are typically hand-optimised for small sizes
23:22.23SpeedEvilThe case where it would actually be useful - smaller fonts - is going to be quite rare.
23:22.24Stephmwrarely auto-hinted
23:22.30balrog-kunin fact in the pictures Koen posted on flickr he forgot to expose the included magnifying glass :)
23:22.54SpeedEvilHandy tip. Get a 2.8" rectangle of paper.
23:22.59sparqSpeedEvil: Maybe not for the occasional use one would expect for a phone, but I had to learn the hard way that well hinted fonts have a huge impact on my attention span and eye fatigue
23:23.03SpeedEvilNow set a window to it.
23:23.16SpeedEvilback off to normal phone viewing distance.
23:23.50SpeedEvilsparq: On what displays?
23:24.00sparqSpeedEvil: Pretty much any display, or even printed.
23:24.18SpeedEvilThis display has 9 times the dots per square inch of almost any desktop display.
23:25.19sparqSpeedEvil: It's subtle, and might not even affect most people, but I notice it even at 3600 dpi, or whatever the effective resolution for trade paperback books is
23:25.34SpeedEvilAh. You have golden eyes.
23:25.44sparqSpeedEvil: nope. Dyslexia.
23:26.01sparqSpeedEvil: I can't actually see the hinting, but I get a headache when it's not there
23:26.45SpeedEvilI'd like to see actual tests - I have doubts that you'd reliably be able to tell at 300dpi at normal phone distances.
23:27.16SpeedEvilAs most human eyes simply don't have the resolution to pick up if it's aliased or not.
23:27.21sparqI guess I must sort of see it, but not well enough to describe it.
23:28.17sparqmaybe not
23:30.05balrog-kuni rarely see non antialiased fonts anywhere on computers these days
23:30.17balrog-kunwhich is cool
23:30.19happycubei see badly antialiased fonts on windows all the time though
23:30.48happycubei played with a vista rc and i was like "the font's *still* suck?  damn."
23:31.20LuitvDbalrog-kun: why the double negative? :P non anti-aliased is called: aliased ;)
23:33.36sparqHmm... I guess if they are hand-tweaked bitmaped fonts, that would be ideal. No nasty aliasing, and we can save power by not calculating Bezier curves.
23:33.41balrog-kunaliased makes me think of shell aliases or something :)
23:34.11balrog-kunLuitvD: actually a digital image is never 100% aliased
23:34.25balrog-kunanti-aliasing just reduces the effect
23:34.38SpeedEvilIt can be completely aliased.
23:34.47LuitvD8-bit :D
23:34.50balrog-kunnot with square pixels
23:34.50SpeedEvilJust alias it over the whole screen.
23:34.59SpeedEvilNot very useful of course.
23:35.09LuitvDlol
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23:35.17LuitvDanyways, I'm gone...
23:36.07LuitvDneed some rest
23:36.08LuitvDit's half past one already... :S
23:42.26ElrondAny P0 owner still awake?
23:43.07ElrondOr someone any idea where in /sys I should "echo 0" to shut the phone down _immediately_?
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23:52.16balrog-kunpoweroff -n was it?
23:52.37balrog-kunor -f
23:54.53Elrondbalrog-kun - The fs was completely dead.
23:56.01Elrondbalrog-kun - I even scp'd halt.sysvinit to /tmp (which is on tmpfs) in the hope, that libc6 would be enoughly paged in. To no avail. I finally removed the battery.
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23:58.16rwhitbymorning
23:59.36balrog-kunElrond: ouch

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